Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25328

 1                           Monday, 30 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             Mr. Mikulicic, is the Markac Defence ready to call its next

12     witness?

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We are.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I take it that it will be Zoran Cvrk.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  Mr. Cvrk is our next witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Cvrk.

19             Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

20     require that you make a solemn declaration of which the text will now be

21     handed out to you by the usher.

22             May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I solemnly declare

24     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Cvrk.  Please be seated.

Page 25329

 1             Mr. Cvrk, you will first be examined by Mr. Mikulicic.

 2     Mr. Mikulicic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           WITNESS:  ZORAN CVRK

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Cvrk.

 9        A.   Good morning, Counsel.

10        Q.   Please state your full name for the record.

11        A.   My name is Zoran Cvrk.

12        Q.   I would ask the Registry for 3D00886.

13             Mr. Cvrk, you will see a document on the screen shortly and that

14     is your statement which you gave to the Defence of General Markac.

15             You remember that you gave the statement to the Defence of

16     General Markac, don't you?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   That was on 13th of May this year, right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Could we please see the last page of this statement.

21             You also remember, Mr. Cvrk, that you signed that statement as

22     the one you gave?

23        A.   I remember.

24        Q.   Is this your signature, the one you see on the right-hand side of

25     the screen?

Page 25330

 1        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 2        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, when you gave the statement, did you say everything to

 3     the best of your knowledge and recollection about the facts and the

 4     truth?

 5        A.   To my best knowledge and recollection, in connection with the

 6     events and the military and police Operation Storm, I expressed

 7     everything truthfully, all the facts and the whole truth.

 8        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today, and if we

 9     discussed the same topics, would you provide the same answers?

10        A.   Certainly, yes.

11             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I propose to tender

12     this statement into evidence.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1833.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D1833 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, please be so kind so as to describe briefly your

19     professional development.  What is your education, where did you work,

20     and what is your current occupation?

21        A.   I was born in Osijek in 1965.  That was where I completed primary

22     school.  And then I enrolled the general military high school Ivo Lola

23     Ribar in Zagreb, which I completed in 1984.  After that I enrolled at the

24     Land Forces Military Academy in Belgrade.  And in 1988, I completed this

25     as anti-aircraft sublieutenant in Zadar and I worked in the 155th Rocket

Page 25331

 1     Regiment of anti-aircraft defence which was based in Zagreb, and the unit

 2     I was in was in Stubicka Slatina.  At the beginning of the war, I held

 3     the rank of lieutenant and then I was transferred to the police.

 4             In the police I started working in the special unit of the Zagreb

 5     police administration and I was a specialist training instructor, that

 6     was my post.  And in 1993, by a decision of the interior ministry, I was

 7     appointed commander of the same unit.  Between 1993 and the year 2000, I

 8     was the commander of the special unit of the Zagreb police

 9     administration, known as Alpha, and in the meantime, between late 1996

10     and the summer of 1998, I was special police unit commander in the police

11     forces attached to the UN administration for the Croatian Danube Valley

12     area.

13             In the year 2002, I became director of the Security Staff of the

14     Office of National Security, and I dealt with counter-intelligence

15     protection of protected persons in the Republic of Croatia until the year

16     2002, when I retired.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If I could please see the

18     document 3D00321.

19        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, you told us that you joined the special police unit of

20     the Zagreb police administration where you were an instructor and that

21     then in 1993 you were appointed commander of this unit.

22             Mr. Cvrk, in front of you, you will see a document of the

23     27th of May, 1993, according to which the assistant chief of the Zagreb

24     police administration proposes to the Ministry of Interior of the

25     Republic of Croatia that you be appointed to the post of the commander of

Page 25332

 1     the special police unit within this police administration.

 2             Mr. Cvrk, please, tell me was this the usual way to propose

 3     persons for specific posts within the police administration via the

 4     assistant chief or chief?

 5        A.   Yes, the appointment of the commander of the special police unit,

 6     as my superior was the chief of the police administration in the Zagreb

 7     police administration, it was usual that that police administration do

 8     that.  And in this case, you can see that this document was signed by the

 9     assistant chief for personnel, Mr. Misetic, proposed to the minister of

10     the interior who would be appointed to which post.  So that was the usual

11     way.

12        Q.   And as for the administrative duty of appointing someone or

13     relieving someone of their post, the sector of special police and its

14     chief or the deputy or assistant chief of police administration, did they

15     have any influence or administrative role in appointment to the post that

16     you were assigned to?

17        A.   In the administrative sense certainly not, but I believe that

18     professionally they may have been consulted by the persons who appointed

19     me, that is to say, the interior minister, whether I fulfilled the

20     general criteria in terms of ability and some other criteria so that I

21     could be appointed the commander of the police special unit.

22        Q.   In your position as the commander of the special police unit

23     attached to the Zagreb police administration, is in the terms of

24     hierarchy, subordinated to whom?

25        A.   In terms of hierarchy, my position as the commander of the

Page 25333

 1     special police unit of the Zagreb police administration was subordinated

 2     to the chief of the Zagreb police administration.  I was directly

 3     subordinated to him.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could now please see the

 5     document D1086 on the screen, please.

 6        Q.   From the previous document we could see that the proposal for

 7     your appointment was sent to the minister of the interior and now we

 8     shall see the decision of the minister of the interior according to which

 9     Zoran Cvrk is appointed as of the 15th of June, 1993, to the post of

10     commander of the special unit of the Zagreb police administration.

11             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please scroll down

12     the Croatian version so that we could see the signature.

13        Q.   And, Mr. Cvrk, in the lower right-hand corner you will see that

14     the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, signed this document.  And in

15     the left-hand corner you will see that it was delivered to yourself, to

16     the police administration in Zagreb, and to the archives.  So the

17     minister of the interior directly appointed you, and there is no doubt

18     about that.

19             Please, tell us whether this appointment as the commander of the

20     special police unit within the Zagreb police administration was also

21     submitted to the special police sector, because here we cannot see it

22     from the document, that is to say, we see that it was not submitted, was

23     this usual or not?

24        A.   This was the usual personnel policy of the Ministry of the

25     Interior and certainly in one way or another the special police sector

Page 25334

 1     was informed about this.  However, the whole thing developed just as we

 2     can see from the document.

 3        Q.   Later on we will talk a bit about the relations within the

 4     special police sector.  However, before that, let me ask you this, and

 5     the easiest way will be to establish that through documents I will show

 6     you.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see D1084,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, now you will see an order from 1991 which was issued by

10     the then interior minister, Mr. Ivan Vekic.  The order is dated from late

11     1991, from the month of November.  And in the order, in item 1, it is

12     stated that special police units should be set up in each police

13     administration for special reasons of security.

14             Further on, under number 7, it is mentioned that special units

15     are to be engaged solely pursuant to decisions issued by the chief of a

16     police administration and deputy minister of the interior or the person

17     thus authorised by him.

18             Mr. Cvrk, according to your knowledge, recollection and

19     experience, was this sort of practice which was introduced by the order

20     from 1991, was implemented continually during your work in the special

21     police?

22        A.   This order confirms the manner of engagement of the special

23     police unit of the interior ministry within police administrations.  Most

24     of the engagement since 1991 and 1992 were in the area of the police

25     administrations, and in the sense of establishment and command,

Page 25335

 1     everything that was connected with the special police in these years was

 2     mostly connected with the local police administrations.

 3        Q.   If we could now please have a look at the second page of this

 4     document, we will see under item 8 in the English version, it's the last

 5     paragraph on the page that question certainly see.  It says here,

 6     Mr. Cvrk, that the chief of a police administration, before engaging a

 7     special unit in the area of his administration, must obtain clearance

 8     from deputy minister or the person authorised by the deputy minister.

 9             And then under item 9, it says that the special unit cannot be

10     engaged in the area of the another police administration without a

11     decision issued by the deputy minister.

12             Was that the usual way to engage a special police unit, Mr. Cvrk?

13        A.   Even though at the time I was the instructor of special training,

14     that is to say, I was second in the chain of command, I can say with

15     certainty that that was the usual way that any special police unit within

16     any police administration was used and that it was very logical that this

17     kind of unit could not be engaged without the knowledge of the commanding

18     leadership.  And that is to say, the deputy minister of the interior

19     ministry.

20             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could now please see the

21     document D1077.

22        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, what I will show you now is the Law on Internal Affairs

23     which was published in mid-1991.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] And if we could please Article 24

25     of this law which is on page 3 -- no, page 4 of the Croatian version of

Page 25336

 1     the text, Article 24.

 2        Q.   That is the article, Mr. Cvrk, which Mr. Jarnjak referred in the

 3     order on your appointment as the legal basis, and this article actually

 4     says that because of special reasons of security the maintenance or

 5     establishment of law and order in the event of an emergency caused by a

 6     natural disaster or an epidemic, the enactment establishing a special

 7     unit shall designate which employees of the ministry shall make up the

 8     special unit.

 9             At the time, that is to say, in 1991, in this law, the term

10     "special police" is not expressly mentioned but, rather, "special units."

11     However, in the amendment to this law which came into force in 1994, and

12     for reference this is P1148, this Article was changed and special police

13     was expressly mentioned and which is established to fight all forms of

14     sabotage and terrorist activities in order to prevent the kidnapping of

15     persons or vehicles, in order to liberate hostages and do other duties

16     from the area of work of the ministry under special conditions.

17             Does this correspond to the practice which you performed as the

18     commander of special police units?

19        A.   Yes, that is absolutely true.

20        Q.   You said that you were first an instructor, a specialist training

21     instructor.  Can you please tell us, in a few sentences, what kind of

22     post was that, and what duties did you perform as a specialist training

23     instructor?

24        A.   Well, you see, at the beginning of the homeland war and when the

25     special police units were formed, not even the internal structure of

Page 25337

 1     special police was very solid in the sense of chain of command and the

 2     precision of the duties for each post that we had.  In brief, the

 3     specialist training instructor could be in the special police unit of the

 4     Zagreb police administration.  He could be a person who had to work with

 5     the men up to a reinforced platoon, or he could be a person who, by his

 6     specialisation and specific military and police knowledge, was in charge

 7     of training.  I was in charge both of training and I was in charge of the

 8     men.  So I had a clear structure of the people who were subordinated to

 9     me and that I was a commander to.

10             The documents that you showed were a realist precondition for the

11     creation of the special police sector which, as an organisational

12     structure, was only later set up as of 1993 onwards and only then were

13     the duties and the tasks clearly stated, as well as the ranks, the chain

14     of command, and the internal structure of every special police unit in

15     any police administration.

16        Q.   Now we will touch on the subject of the internal structure.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] So if we could please see the

18     document D527 on the screen.

19        Q.   You will see, Mr. Cvrk, now a decree on the internal structure

20     and the manner of work of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of

21     Croatia from the month of February 1995, where, in Article 2 of the

22     decree, it says that in order to conduct affairs pursuant to the Law on

23     Internal Affairs, the following offices shall be established in the

24     ministry, and then we can see the office of the cabinet, the minister's

25     office and the sector.

Page 25338

 1             When you mentioned sector a while ago, please tell us what kind

 2     of an organisational unit was the special police sector, and according to

 3     your best knowledge and recollection, why was such a form selected?

 4        A.   The decree governing the internal structure and work of the

 5     Ministry of Interior did not set out the provisions concerning the

 6     special police sector only.  There were -- there was the police sector,

 7     the crime police sector, the administrative affairs sector, the personnel

 8     and legal sectors.  There were several such sectors.

 9             One of the ways in which the Ministry of Interior was structured

10     was to include the special police sector, which, according to the new

11     structure, was given the task of detailing all the tasks that would fall

12     within the remit of the special police structure, or force, as one of the

13     forces coming under the Ministry of Interior.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now turn to Article 27 of

15     the decree, which is at page 15 of the English version in e-court.

16     Article 27 relates to the special police sector.

17             The Croatian version is on 3D001513.  That's the page number.

18     Article 27.

19        Q.   We're waiting for the English version before I start reading it,

20     Mr. Cvrk.

21             The Article reads as follows:  The special police sector

22     establishes, manages, and directs the work of special police units,

23     proposes the most efficient methods and means, adopts the plan and means

24     of specialist training, and checks the level of combat readiness and

25     enforcement of legal provisions achieved.

Page 25339

 1             Mr. Cvrk, this particular provision describes the duties of the

 2     special police units.  How did you apply them in practice, and to you, as

 3     a commander of a special police unit within the Zagreb police

 4     administration, how did this hierarchy appear?

 5        A.   These guidelines in accordance with the structure of the

 6     Ministry of Interior, were in fact duties of the special police sector

 7     and all the special police units.  Under the law, the special police

 8     units were supposed to carry out these duties, train their men, honour

 9     the hierarchy, and take care of all the employees or, rather, members of

10     the special police sector.  They were supposed to be prepared for the

11     duties of enforcing law and order.  Whenever it was disrupted it was

12     supposed to provide assistance to the general duty police and crime

13     police.  And it was supposed to, of course, be specialised in terrorist

14     combat, combat in urban areas, knowledge of tactics and the relevant

15     legal provisions, report to the special police sector on all its duties,

16     and cover all the activities -- monitor all the activities that its units

17     are engaged in.

18             It was also duty-bound to keep a record of all the activities and

19     all the documents governing its structure and activity throughout its

20     work.

21        Q.   Could it be said that this was in fact a specialist hierarchy, a

22     specialist line of command, as it were?

23        A.   Yes, quite clearly it was a specialist line -- chain of command

24     or hierarchy within the police.

25        Q.   When you spoke of the internal structure of the Ministry of the

Page 25340

 1     Interior, you referred several sectors, including the police sector, the

 2     crime police sector, the special police sector, et cetera.  From

 3     comparison's sake, let's look at the way in which this same decree

 4     resolves the duties of the crime police sector.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to Article 17, which

 6     is at page 10 of the version in e-court.

 7             This is where the crime police sector is defined -- or let us

 8     just wait for the text to appear.  Page 10 of e-court and the Croatian

 9     version is 3D001510.  That's the page number of the Croatian version.

10        Q.   This is how the decree governs the work of the crime police

11     sector.  It is supposed to monitor and examine the trend in criminality

12     in general, cooperate with other ministries, and crime investigation

13     services, provide professional and technical assistance, control the work

14     of police administrations, particular in terms of crime prevention,

15     et cetera.

16             Mr. Cvrk, the fact that the sector was structured in this way,

17     within the Ministry of Interior, and I'm referring to the crime police

18     sector, if we compare it to the way the special police sector was

19     structured, do you notice any similarities or, in other words, what would

20     your comments on this score be?

21        A.   There are definitely similarities, primarily within the -- in

22     terms of the specialist organisation.  The lower level structure is a

23     department.  Although, of course, the duties there with which the

24     criminal police is quite different from that of the special police.  We

25     can see that the structure envisages that below the level of the sector

Page 25341

 1     there would be various departments charged with different matters, and

 2     this is shared by both sectors.

 3        Q.   Can we say, then, that the way in which the sectors were

 4     organised within the Ministry of Interior was envisaged in a such way

 5     that they should cover each their own specialist field of activity?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at D1083, please.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please break between

 9     question and answer.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvrk --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to make a pause between question and

13     answer.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will do my best, Your Honour.  I'm sorry to the

15     interpreters.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] We see here the rules governing the internal

17     order of the Ministry of the Interior, dating from the 17th of November,

18     1995.

19             The rules detail the internal organisation and work posts within

20     the ministry.

21             Let us look at the way in which the commander of the special

22     police unit was defined as a post.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Which is at page 5 of the

24     Croatian version and page 6 of the English version.

25             The Croatian version starts at the top of the page.

Page 25342

 1        Q.   Commander of the special police unit shall, directly manage and

 2     be held responsible for the work of the special police unit, plan,

 3     organise, coordinate, and direct all actions involving the participation

 4     of the special police unit.

 5             Further down, it is stated that it will propose to the chief of

 6     the police administration the way in which the personnel is to be

 7     recruited, and will recruit the personnel as per the criteria defined.

 8             On completed action, he is duty-bound to report in writing to the

 9     chief of the police administration and to the chief of the special police

10     sector on the action carried out.

11             Further down, it is stated that he is responsible for the

12     discipline, detection of any negative events, incidents within the unit,

13     and suggest to his superior on measures to be taken.

14             Finally, it said that he is duty-bound to monitor the

15     cutting-edge achievements of similar police units in other countries and

16     make suggestions to his superior accordingly.

17             Mr. Cvrk, can you tell us, as the commander of a special police

18     unit, whether these were indeed the tasks that your unit was addressing?

19        A.   Yes.  This fully tallies with the description of the duties that

20     I discharged as commander of the special police unit.

21        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, now that we have defined the relations within the

22     Ministry of Interior, or specifically within the police administration,

23     can you tell us whether the same relations applied to the engagement of

24     special police units in peacetime circumstances, as well as in

25     circumstances of combat, such as the ones that existed in the police and

Page 25343

 1     military Operation Storm, or was there a special set-up envisaged for

 2     such circumstances?

 3        A.   Clearly, the special police units had clearly defined tasks

 4     within their respective police administrations in relation to the tasks

 5     that they were supposed to discharge outside of the area of

 6     responsibility of the police administration.  There was a clear hierarchy

 7     which started from the chief of the police administration or basically

 8     the Deputy Chief of the police administration.  He was the first

 9     operative officer who was there on behalf of his specialist field, either

10     the crime police or the special police unit, and he was supposed to be

11     responsible for the regular duties discharged by the special police as

12     well as those out of the ordinary activities.

13             When we're talking about the regular activities, that is to say,

14     the enforcement of public law and order and other regular police duties,

15     and this concerned the duties within one's own area of responsibility of

16     one's own police administration, such as police raids, police activities

17     in combat against terrorism or arrest of perpetrators of the most serious

18     crimes, through to the most difficult situations for the police, such as

19     hostage situations, for instance.

20             In other words, all these documents that we've just looked at

21     clearly defined the chain of command.

22             Now, when it came to different situations where special police

23     unit members had to be put together and dispatched outside of the area of

24     responsibility of their own police administration, for instance, in my --

25     in the case of my own unit, when we were supposed to provide assistance

Page 25344

 1     to the crime police of our administration or of the Ministry of Interior

 2     in general, in such cases we were supposed to be given a clear

 3     authorisation in the Ministry of Interior in order to be able to leave

 4     our AOR and engage in such high-risk scenarios, such as football matches

 5     where unrest was expected.  We, as the unit of the police -- of the

 6     Zagreb police administration, we were trained to deal with such

 7     situations.  Or, in the case of Operations Flash and Storm, we were given

 8     clear instructions and authorisations as to the reasons for our leaving

 9     our AOR and the authorisation to leave our AOR.

10        Q.   When it comes to the engagement of special police units together

11     with other forces in general, we will deal with this matter later on.

12             Let us now discuss special police as one of the forces within the

13     Ministry of Interior which had to have specialist knowledge and training.

14             As for the training which related to special police force, in

15     what way were members of the special police force trained in different

16     specialist skills and knowledge?

17        A.   Well, as we saw before, the specialist chain of command was

18     clearly defined, which tasked every unit commander with the duty to carry

19     out specialist training within his own respective chain of command.

20     Every unit kept a diary of specialist training which included specialist

21     fields of training and there was specific instructors charged with given

22     fields.  They were in charge of training.

23             The training plan was monitored throughout the year for the level

24     of its achievement in each and every special police units.  The purpose

25     of the whole exercise was to see to what extent the training plan had

Page 25345

 1     been carried out.  There was an inspection task force within the special

 2     police structure which was charged with specifically monitoring the

 3     course of training.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up document 3D00729.

 5        Q.   The issue of training and schooling of special police units is

 6     dealt with here.  This is a document dated from 1992, which the then

 7     chief of the special police department, Mr. Mladen Markac, sent to the

 8     assistant minister, Mr. Josko Moric.  The subject is the request for

 9     special police unit members to be authorised to attend courses at the

10     faculty of criminal justice sciences.

11             In this particular letter, the chief of the special police

12     department seeks authorisation from the assistant minister to allow his

13     men to be additionally schooled at a university.

14             Was this something that was not only typical for 1992 but was

15     present in the subsequent years throughout your term of office there?

16        A.   This is one of the documents whereby the then special police

17     department, which was later to become the special police sector,

18     addresses the right addressee up the chain of command, and this was

19     Mr. Josko Moric, assistant minister at the time, to -- to allow special

20     police unit members to attend regular courses at the police academy.

21     They had courses for criminology, and this was the particular course

22     where those police officers who were in good health and had completed the

23     secondary school, could attend courses, full time or part time, in order

24     to gain specialist knowledge, and they would then acquire the title of

25     graduate criminologist or merely a criminologist for undergraduate

Page 25346

 1             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted

 2     into evidence, Mr. President.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1834.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D1834 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             If we could please see the document 3D00731 on the screen now,

 9     please.

10        Q.   Now we will see another document dealing with the same subject,

11     from January 1995, also submitted to the minister of the interior,

12     Mr. Ivan Jarnjak, asking for approval for professional training of the

13     leader of the special units of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic

14     of Croatia, where it is mentioned that the sector of the special police -

15     previously it was the department, now it's a sector - planned to

16     establish a special training course for approximately 60 executives of

17     the MUP's special police.

18             What is your recollection of the organisation of courses, which

19     included improvement of special police unit members, how frequent were

20     these courses, was there a number of those, or was this a unique case?

21     Can you tell us something more about that, please.

22        A.   This was just one of the documents which shows a continuous will,

23     wish, intention, to implement professional improvement through all

24     organisational structures of special police.  As early as 1992, the first

25     specific specialist courses for leaders within special police were

Page 25347

 1     organised so that they would gain the necessary knowledge and military

 2     expertise, for the simple reason that all of our members were mostly

 3     policemen.  These were men who had been prepared to carry out police

 4     duties.  They were younger men, in terms of age.  They had some military

 5     knowledge, and they were now actively involved in defending their

 6     homeland.

 7             By analysing the special police sector, it was very easy to

 8     notice the need to educate the members, and especially the leadership, so

 9     that they would have all the skills necessary to lead the men, and this

10     is specifically one of the courses for which approval was requested.  And

11     we should say that the courses were at first organised at police academy,

12     some of them in specific special police bases, depending on whether these

13     bases were properly equipped for that or not.  And in late 1994, if I'm

14     not mistaken, a special training centre was set up near [indiscernible]

15     on Losinj and that what was where all the courses were organised from

16     then onwards, such as courses focussed on law, also on mountaineering or

17     scuba-diving, and so on and so forth.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber wonders whether all of the information

19     you are presenting at this moment is of such relevance and whether it's

20     contested.

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  No --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't gain the impression that the training at

23     the various levels of responsibility was something the Prosecution relied

24     upon as being insufficient.  And therefore, we now know that the training

25     took place on Losinj.  What are we supposed to do with this information,

Page 25348

 1     Mr. Mikulicic?

 2             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to

 3     demonstrate that the special police, since its establishment, was

 4     continuously trained and had undergone specialist training and that

 5     specialisation and professionalism were insisted on.  If this is not

 6     contested in any way, I think that my learned friend agrees about this,

 7     then I just wish to refer you to the document D528, in which the number

 8     and kind of courses that were organised for members of special police are

 9     specified.

10             However, if we could now please see from document D528, page 28

11     in English version, and we will change the subject.

12        Q.   Mr. Cvrk --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, let's verify.

14             Ms. Mahindaratne, the document just mentioned is also not

15     contested --

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as far as content is concerned.

18             Then please move on, Mr. Mikulicic.  I thought in the beginning

19     that, and I briefly consulted with my colleagues, that perhaps you need a

20     kind of an introduction, even if it's to some extent even what we find

21     already in the written statement.  But it took forms now, over the last

22     45 minutes, such a way that the Chamber really thinks that it's -- that

23     we better focus on what is contested and what are the real issues in this

24     case.

25             Please proceed.

Page 25349

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             [Interpretation] If we could please see page 30 in the Croatian

 3     version, and page 28 in the English version in the document D528.

 4        Q.   As we will see, Mr. Cvrk, this is a report relating to the

 5     disciplinary measures taken against the members of the special police, so

 6     we will talk about discipline within the special police unit that you

 7     were heading.

 8             What was your function as the commander of a special police unit,

 9     in terms of discipline, what were your obligations, what was your

10     authority?  And if any of the members of the special police unit

11     committed any infringement of discipline, how did you react to that and

12     how did you participate in this?

13        A.   All members of the Ministry of the Interior were held responsible

14     according to a disciplinary set of rules which clearly stated which were

15     the minor and which were the major infringements of discipline.  The

16     minister of the interior transferred some of the authority that he had to

17     the heads of police administrations, and the chief of the Zagreb police

18     administration transferred the authority to leaders of some units,

19     whether these were police stations or special police units or some other

20     structural forms such as departments or sectors.

21             The procedure was the following:  When the infringements were

22     minor, then one could caution those members or a fine could be imposed on

23     them; or if these were major infringements, then the procedure is

24     something that I would need to initiate, and I would send files to a

25     disciplinary court which was part of the police administration as the

Page 25350

 1     first-instance body, and then it was forwarded if someone appealed within

 2     15 days to the second-instance body which was at the seat of the Ministry

 3     of the Interior.

 4             That was the usual procedure for all members of the unit that I

 5     commanded.

 6        Q.   Was the procedure of initiating disciplinary responsibility

 7     specific in any way for the special police, or was it implemented at the

 8     level of the ministry for all organisational structures equally?

 9        A.   No.  It was the single disciplinary procedure which was always

10     applied.

11             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could turn a page in the

12     document that we see on the screen --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please go one page

15     forward in this document.

16        Q.   We'll see a table with statistical data of disciplinary

17     procedures against members of the special police in 1995.

18             Mr. Cvrk, you said that the reports were drafted annually.  Is

19     this report about disciplinary measures also something that was drafted

20     annually, or are we talking about a different time-period?

21        A.   Report about the activities of the unit training and also

22     disciplinary proceedings were monthly, as far as I remember.  This is a

23     part of the annual report which we also had to submit to the special

24     police sector.  And you can see here what was the manning level of the

25     units, what were the minor and major disciplinary infringements, and also

Page 25351

 1     the number of the disciplinary proceedings that were conducted, in terms

 2     of the reserve forces.

 3        Q.   The data relating to your unit, we can see that at the bottom of

 4     the page, that's the data about the special police unit of the Zagreb

 5     police administration, and from the data it follows that your unit, in

 6     1995, was manned with 237 policemen, that there was proceedings relating

 7     to 11 minor infringements and 18 major ones which was a total of 12.23

 8     per cent.

 9             By comparison with special police units from other police

10     administration, the result within your police administration points to

11     what sort of conclusion?  What conclusion can you draw about the

12     frequency of discipline infringements and how serious were they?

13        A.   One should say that the number of police members, 237, was

14     something relating to the number of 250 of active servicemen we should

15     normally have, and we had 288 members of reserve forces rather than 250.

16             The number of infringements did not depend on the number of

17     members, it depended on the number of individuals who committed any

18     infringements, whether they were members of the active force or the

19     reserve forces.  And the data just shows that the command structure of

20     the unit and myself implemented the disciplinary rules of the Croatian

21     MUP and that we tried to maintain discipline at the highest possible

22     level within the unit.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please go back for a

24     second to the document which we already saw and that was the Law on

25     Internal Affairs, and that is D1077.  If we could please see Article 80

Page 25352

 1     which deals with the disciplinary responsibility.

 2        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, the basic Law on Internal Affairs provides disciplinary

 3     responsibility in chapter 5.  These are Articles 80 to 92, and as you

 4     said, it says there that there can be minor and major infringements of

 5     work discipline, that the disciplinary courts shall be set up within the

 6     police administrations as the first instances, and then a second instance

 7     within the ministry.  And in Article 84, it is provided that the

 8     first-instance disciplinary court would comprise the president and two

 9     members of the Chamber, and the second instance of the president and four

10     members.

11             Article 87 provides that disciplinary measures such as public

12     caution or fine or termination of duty can be applied.

13             What kind of disciplinary measure could you take as a commander

14     of a unit, Mr. Cvrk?

15        A.   Personally, I could take the disciplinary measures relating to

16     minor infringements of discipline and in my authority was to take the

17     measure of public caution or a fine, which were used for minor

18     infringements of discipline.

19             For major infringements, as well as for incidents in which

20     certain members or reserve members were suspected of participating in

21     certain crimes, my duty was to initiate criminal proceedings with all the

22     evidence that such a crime was committed before the disciplinary court of

23     the Zagreb police administration.

24        Q.   In Article 90 of this law, a decision on suspension of duty is

25     mentioned.  What were the cases when a policeman could be suspended from

Page 25353

 1     duty?

 2        A.   The minister of the interior or a person that he would authorise,

 3     and that was most often the chief of a police administration, in case

 4     when major infringements of discipline were committed, or in particular,

 5     if crimes were committed, in according the Criminal Code of the

 6     Republic of Croatia could suspend someone from duty by a decision which

 7     could come into force immediately or in eight days, in which case

 8     personal weapons and badge or identity card of a member of the MUP were

 9     taken away from this person, if there was evidence that such a crime had

10     been committed.

11        Q.   Let us try to give an example from practice.

12             If would you be informed, for example, by the crime police or the

13     investigating judge, that there was suspicion that one of the members of

14     your special unit had committed a crime, what was the procedure that, in

15     such a situation, you would apply?

16        A.   In such a situation the procedure was very simple.

17             The procedure would be initiated before the first-instance

18     disciplinary court within the police administration of Zagreb, and the

19     policeman would be suspended from duty.  His rights would be that he

20     would be receiving 50 per cent of his salary, so the salary would be

21     docked.  He had right to legal assistance during the proceedings.  He

22     would be suspended from duty.  And if he was suspected of having

23     committed certain crimes, or had committed major infringement of

24     discipline which had grave consequences on the operation of any section

25     of the MUP, then he would be suspended.  And the disciplinary court

Page 25354

 1     would, independently, conduct the proceedings without any influences from

 2     outside, whether these were professional or otherwise.

 3             So disciplinary courts were wholly independent from the hierarchy

 4     and chain of command of the Ministry of the Interior.

 5        Q.   Would such a procedure be conducted in a situation in which

 6     criminal proceedings were initiated before a relevant court against one

 7     of your members?

 8        A.   That's right.  That was the procedure in such cases.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, let us move on to another topic briefly.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, if would you not mind, I would like

11     to go back to the statistics and conclusions you asked the witness to

12     draw from them.  That was the last page of the report, page 29 out of ...

13             Could we have that on our screen again.  It was the previous.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] D528.  Page 30 in Croatian and

17     28 in the English version.

18             The next page.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- in English, it's page 29 out of -- yes,

20     perhaps if you --

21             Yes.  You drew the conclusion that -- that discipline was

22     maintained at the highest possible level.  That was your conclusion, in

23     Zagreb.  Is that correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My conclusion was that all of the

25     commanders in their respective units were duty-bound to implement

Page 25355

 1     disciplinary rules and procedures.  We were also supposed to monitor the

 2     level of discipline and maintain it at the highest possible level.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do agree with you.  You said, We tried to

 4     maintain them at the highest possible level.

 5             How could you conclude this from these numbers?  Could you give

 6     me the reasoning behind how these numbers can show what you tried to do?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regarding the counsel's question

 8     and the data in the table, it is clear that this was not a situation

 9     where discipline was not being monitored and followed.  This is a living

10     organism, and every individual could have been instituted proceedings

11     against, in disciplinary terms, if an offence had been committed.  This

12     was used to raise the awareness of all that discipline is a priority in

13     the work of any commander.  This is what this table shows.

14             The total number of measures as well as the indication that there

15     were both minor and major infringements only goes to prove that we were

16     no exemption from the rules that were otherwise applied across the MUP.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now let me try to give you three or four

18     different interpretation of these numbers, and then, again, we are

19     talking about how you can draw conclusions.

20             One of the things you could conclude that if, in certain units,

21     the percentage of people that had to be -- that had disciplinary action

22     taken against, if that moves up to 40 per cent and above, the

23     disciplinary system was not functioning at all, or very badly

24     functioning.

25             I'm just -- I'm not saying it is the right conclusion but just to

Page 25356

 1     put to you another way of looking at these numbers.  Would you say that

 2     is logically not conclusive?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Each piece of statistical

 4     information, including this one, can be interpreted in different ways.

 5     The example here is something that was generated by the sector of the

 6     special police.  I was merely trying to interpret it in the way that it

 7     was visible and it was clear that there was much attention paid to

 8     discipline.  I said that disciplinary measures were undertaken depending

 9     on the nature and number of minor and major infringements, independently

10     of the size of the units and its staffing strength.  The statistics in

11     and of itself may or may not mean much.  However, it exists, and this was

12     a measure of continuously monitoring discipline.  This was only one of

13     the ways of reporting for the special police.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about drawing conclusions on the basis

15     of number, nothing else.  Not to -- I have no -- if you would say, One of

16     the conclusions you could draw from these numbers, that there was an

17     alarming situation in Zagreb because the percentage of severe cases was

18     far higher than the percentage of light cases, which is an alarming

19     situation, would you, from a point of view of logic, could you say that

20     that is not a logical conclusion?  Apart from whether it is right or not.

21     But is there anything wrong with the logic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely the purpose of

23     disciplinary monitoring.  In relation to minor and major infringements of

24     discipline, it needs to be used to indicate whether discipline in this or

25     that particular unit is of a satisfactory level.  I can tell that you

Page 25357

 1     certain annual reports, say for 1994, were clear indications of the

 2     situation in certain units which, in turn, resulted in staffing changes.

 3     That would be one of the clearest indications when looking at such

 4     statistics.

 5             Professionally speaking, it could indicate the level of

 6     satisfaction or dissatisfaction concerning the status of each and every

 7     unit of the special police.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You further mentioned that the reserves operatives

 9     were not 250 but 288; is that correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, sir.  Our staffing

11     strength was supposed to have been 250 per establishment; whereas, we

12     actually had 287 staff.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And what -- in what way does that affect the --

14     because the number, which was 287, apparently not 288, but 287 were

15     actually serving in the reserve forces.

16             Now, if you have more men than the 250 you were supposed to have,

17     what does that say about up-keeping standards of discipline?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The staffing strength which

19     exceeded the numbers per establishment was because each unit, including

20     its reserve forces, is a living organism.  The figure of 287 at that

21     moment included a number of the policemen who, at that period of time,

22     were already on their way out of the unit, returning to their other

23     duties or studies.  Whereas, some of them were on sick-leave as well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You raised this matter in the context of the

25     conclusions you have drawn from these numbers.

Page 25358

 1             My question to you is:  In which way does the fact that you have

 2     287 persons in the reserve force, in what way does that affect the data

 3     we find here and, therefore, in what way does it affect any conclusions

 4     to be drawn from this table?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The increased number of staff

 6     requires great care and responsibility.

 7             This number of staff and proceedings is a piece of statistics.

 8     As I told you already, each one of us was tasked with implementing the

 9     disciplinary rules of the MUP, irrespective of the size of the unit.

10     Each of the commanders implemented the rules of procedure in relation to

11     the minor and major violations of discipline.  The size of a particular

12     unit does not have a direct relation to the number of proceedings

13     whatsoever.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  My last question is the following:  Isn't it true

15     that to draw any conclusions you would have to know how many violations

16     there had been?

17             I mean, just to give you an example, if a unit reports

18     10 per cent violations and another unit reports 40 per cent violations,

19     well, if you do not know how many violations there had been, could you

20     draw any conclusions from the reported numbers?

21             Let's just assume, for example, that the 40 per cent reporting

22     reflects a situation in which 40 per cent of the members did act in

23     violation of disciplinary rules; whereas, where 10 per cent was reported,

24     also 40 per cent actually had committed acts in violation of discipline,

25     would you agree with me that, if you don't know what the real numbers

Page 25359

 1     are, that it is very difficult to draw any conclusions as to the --

 2     whether or not the discipline was maintained at the highest level or that

 3     such efforts were made?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we are discussing figures, and

 5     if 60 staff committed 26 violations throughout that year, which would

 6     result in 40 per cent of the staff having committed any type of

 7     infringement, that would be an alarming piece of information.  That's

 8     what this table is about.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The table is about what was reported, isn't it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.  There is no other

11     data.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, I'm not saying that the conclusion

13     from this witness may not have been perfect, but there is no way, on the

14     basis of the numbers, to establish that.

15             I just wanted to draw your attention also to the level in which

16     these interpretations of statistics assists the Chamber without having a

17     lot of other information in relation to that same material as well.

18             You may proceed.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for 3D00236.

21        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, you mentioned as one of the measures in a disciplinary

22     procedure was fines, imposing fines.  I am showing you a document

23     stipulating the criteria for monetary fine, vis-a-vis special police

24     members.  Its articles precisely define the percentage of a monthly

25     salary that can be deducted after having committed a certain type of

Page 25360

 1     disciplinary violation.

 2             Mr. Cvrk, did you, in the course of your work, apply these

 3     criteria?

 4        A.   Yes.  This was a general instruction so that the commanders could

 5     apply a uniform approach in imposing fines for minor violations of

 6     discipline, that they could take on as part of their overall duties.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask that this

 8     document be admitted into evidence, Your Honour.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1835.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Since we only have a couple of minutes left

15     before the break, Mr. Cvrk, perhaps we can say something briefly about

16     the appearance of special police members.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] For that purpose, I would kindly

18     ask for P329, page 2 of the document.  It is the Official Gazette of the

19     Republic of Croatia, the edition with the rules about uniforms, insignia

20     and other designations of the special forces units of the MUP.  We

21     clearly see what the number -- what the colour of the uniform of special

22     police forces was supposed to be in Articles 6 and onwards, as well as

23     the colour of individual items of clothing.  One notices that green

24     prevails in that uniform.

25        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, did members of the special police forces wear the same

Page 25361

 1     uniforms as per these rules?

 2        A.   Yes.  Based on these rules, all active and reserve staff of the

 3     special police wore the same uniforms, and we had a uniform insignia.

 4        Q.   Were there any rank designations on the special police forces

 5     uniforms?

 6        A.   Yes.  We had uniform rank designations for each and every special

 7     police unit, its sectors and departments.

 8        Q.   I may not have been sufficiently clear in my question.

 9             If we compare the uniforms worn by the special police with those

10     worn by members of the Croatian Army, as you have just said, you told us

11     that the special police uniforms had designations of individual work

12     posts.  But in terms of rank as usually seen in the army, could that be

13     easily seen on police uniforms of that kind?

14        A.   No.  Any rank designations within the special police was

15     separately designated depending on the job title, such as group leader,

16     instructor or specialty training, assistant deputy, deputy of the special

17     police forces.  Each work post had its own designation and insignia in

18     addition to the insignia of the -- our individual special units and the

19     patches of the Ministry of the Interior as well as the patch of the coat

20     of arms of our unit on the right-hand shoulder.

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  Mr. President, if I may suggest this will be a

22     time for a break.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It is time for a break.

24             We will have a break until five minutes to 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

Page 25362

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, you may proceed.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record, the first document

 5     that I called up was 3D00321, and this is, in fact, already an exhibit,

 6     D1085.  I just wanted to clarify this for the record.

 7             Similarly, the document I showed to the witness, 3D00731, which

 8     deals with professional training of special police units, I would like to

 9     tender that document into evidence.  3D00731, that's at transcript

10     page 18, line 15.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now 3D00321, was assigned a number again or

12     I'm --

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Not -- so therefore it's just for the record, for

15     our information --

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Just for the record file, yes, Your Honour.  This

17     is D1084.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then --

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, my mistake.  This is

20     D1085.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what you said a second ago.  So that's

22     now on the record.

23             Mr. Registrar, 3D00731 would receive what number?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1836.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, no objections.

Page 25363

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D1836 is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvrk, when we discussed professional

 7     training, schooling and courses taken by members of special police units,

 8     can you tell us whether there was any sort of international cooperation

 9     in existence as well?

10        A.   As far as it was possible under the wartime circumstances,

11     efforts were made to draw upon the knowledge of other special police

12     forces in the region and worldwide and to [French on English channel] --

13     these courses.

14        Q.   Let's turn to a different topic now which is the engagement of

15     special police -- [French on English channel].

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now moving five seconds English, five seconds

17     French, approximately.  I like both languages equally but not at the same

18     time.  I don't know what caused the problem but -- because it's not usual

19     that it switches again and again.  Is there any technical problem behind

20     it?

21             If not, let's give it a try.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24             I would like to call up document D1090.

25        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, these are instructions dating from May 1993 made by the

Page 25364

 1     head of the special police department, Mr. Mladen Markac.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]  We're waiting for the document

 3     to appear.

 4        Q.   In the preamble the following is stated:  In view of the new

 5     proposal for the internal structure of the Ministry of Interior and in

 6     relation to the scope of work of the special police, I hereby issue the

 7     following instructions concerning the existing conditions of work which

 8     are to temporarily regulate the relations within the special police force

 9     among members who conduct combat tasks in the field.

10             Subsequently, the instructions concerning joint forces follow.

11             To your knowledge, Mr. Cvrk, prior to 1993, were special police

12     units organised as part of joint forces whenever major operations needed

13     to be carried out?

14        A.   There were, indeed, several actions where, in the area of

15     responsibility of various police administrations where order was

16     disrupted, such actions were taken by joint forces.  In 1991 to a lesser

17     extent and in 1992.

18             The document we have before us is the one where, around

19     Operation Maslenica, the engagement of joint forces was affirmed in this

20     way and became the model according to which members of various police

21     administrations were assembled for a specific task that they were

22     supposed to carry out for the benefit of the Ministry of the Interior.

23        Q.   Is it fair to say, then, Mr. Cvrk, that up until 1995 and

24     Operation Storm, this model of assembling joint forces had already been

25     well established; is that right?

Page 25365

 1        A.   Yes, it was a customary method of work, where heads of police

 2     administrations were informed of elements of their units being placed at

 3     the disposal for the ministry to conduct any of the tasks which were

 4     carried out at the state level.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up document P554,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   The internal organisation of the joint forces thus formed was

 8     based on guide-lines and orders.  Before you is an order whereby the

 9     staff of the joint forces of the special police was set up on the

10     23rd of July, 1995, shortly before Operation Storm.

11             Can you briefly tell us how such joint forces worked internally,

12     in terms of the chain of command?

13        A.   The chain of command was specifically defined by individual

14     orders, depending on the task given.

15             The chain of command, or the structure of command, was well known

16     to all those who were involved in a particular action, regardless of what

17     their organic unit was.  The unit I was in command of could, up to

18     50 per cent, be detached and dispatched for specific missions, be it to

19     hold the separation line between us and the enemy, being to make sure

20     that the agreements reached concerning the demarcation line are to be

21     honoured.  Such orders defined the strength of individual units and

22     specific locations of the staff of the joint forces, who was in charge of

23     the staff, and who was in charge of the particular line to be defended,

24     or whatever the task was; in other words, who was tasked with what along

25     the chain of command.

Page 25366

 1        Q.   You said that specifically your unit, the special police unit of

 2     the Zagreb police administration, could, at some point, be deprived of up

 3     to 50 per cent of its men for the purposes of such actions of joint

 4     forces.  The remaining men remained within the authority of the Zagreb

 5     police administration.  Did they fall under the chain of command of the

 6     joint forces?  And I mean the policemen who stayed behind as part of the

 7     special police unit of the police administration.

 8        A.   The special police unit of the Zagreb police administration had a

 9     clearly defined task in terms of the deployment of its Rapid Reaction

10     Force, which covered the state and administrative seats, international

11     representatives, embassies, and was specialised in combat against all

12     manner of crime, including terrorism and dealing with hostage situations.

13     The policemen who stayed behind in the police administration were

14     directly subordinated to the head of the police administration and did

15     not come under the chain of command of the joint police forces tasked

16     with specific state-level missions.

17        Q.   The joint forces staff, which was set up in late July of 1995,

18     was set up because of the imminent participation of the police forces in

19     Operation Storm; is that right?

20        A.   I believe so.  However, it is also likely that this order also

21     served the purpose of setting up police forces for Operation Summer,

22     Ljeto, to man the separation line opposite the enemy in the

23     Military Districts of Gospic and Split.  I know that an intervention unit

24     was set up for that purpose.

25        Q.   However, the joint forces themselves and the staff were set up as

Page 25367

 1     part of the plans for Mount Velebit, is that right, and were deployed

 2     there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Elements of your special police unit of the Zagreb police

 5     administration were also part of these joint police forces?  And I'm

 6     referring to the combat action that the police units were a part of in

 7     the course of Operation Storm.

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up document D543.

10        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, I will show you the order issued by the Main Staff of

11     the Croatian Army, which, in fact, launched Operation Storm, and which

12     issued the special police with the specific task.  We can see under

13     item 1 that the MUP special forces were given their axis of attack.

14     Under item 2, it was stated that the operation should be carried out in

15     two phases over the course of three days.

16             In the first phase they were supposed to use their own artillery.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to the following page.

18        Q.   And they were supposed to cut off the roadway between Gospic and

19     Gracac.

20             Mr. Cvrk, what was the role you played in Operation Storm as the

21     commander of the special police unit of the Zagreb police administration?

22        A.   In addition to the general tasks that all the forces were given,

23     in terms of the implementation of the military and police

24     Operation Storm, as I stated in my statement, I was the commander of the

25     fourth auxiliary axis which was supposed to tie up most of the forces and

Page 25368

 1     was supposed to carry out the tasks that we were given by the Main Staff

 2     of the Croatian Army.

 3             There were several units to be deployed along this auxiliary

 4     axis.  We were supposed to reach the Gospic-Gracac roadway in the general

 5     area of the village of Ruke, thus securing most of the forces and make

 6     sure that they reached the Celavac repeater and the Prezid feature, as

 7     well as everything else that was ordered in this particular document.

 8        Q.   As part of preparations for combat activity, did you receive

 9     specific information concerning the enemy who was supposed to be engaged?

10     Their strength, deployment, units, and such-like?

11        A.   During preparations for Operation Storm, and the dates are the

12     28th, the 29th of July, thereabout, every commander was handed maps which

13     had their axis of deployment plotted in.  They each received their set of

14     tasks which indicated the general areas they were supposed to take.  And

15     alongside the maps and tasks, we received intelligence concerning the

16     enemy, their strength, forces, deployment, deployment of their artillery,

17     and the location of other relevant targets.  We needed all of that

18     documentation in order to be able to launch attacks.

19        Q.   The Trial Chamber has already received evidence to that effect.

20     The operation itself started in the morning at around 5.00 on the 4th.

21             The axis that were in command of, namely the fourth auxiliary

22     axis, what sort of progress did you make along that axis and what were

23     the tasks that you achieved on that day?

24        A.   As I already said previously, at the auxiliary axis where I was

25     the commander, the anti-terrorist unit, as well as the special police

Page 25369

 1     unit of the Primorsko Gorinska area were deployed, the majority of the

 2     unit that I commanded was resubordinated to the third auxiliary axis,

 3     with Mr. Cindric, and the reserve forces were the special unit of the

 4     Krapina and Zagorje police administration.

 5             In the first day, we achieved all the tasks that we had been

 6     issued with.  We reached the roads in the Ruke village sector.  We

 7     secured the site.  We also took the combat position and we prepared for

 8     many days of fighting with the enemy, if necessary, because the main task

 9     of this position was that it was expected that introduction of new forces

10     would move through this area, as well as reinforcement for the enemy at

11     the positions of Mali Alan and Celavac.

12        Q.   When you say that you reached in the Ruke village sector, why was

13     this position strategically important, in relation to the road leading

14     from Gospic towards Gracac, and further on in the direction of the

15     cross-roads with Otric and then later, Bruvno and so on.  What was the

16     strategic importance of this road?

17        A.   We cannot talk about strategic importance but this was a tactical

18     point because, by cutting off this road, additional logistical support

19     was cut off for the forces that were holding the front line, and the

20     forces on the mountain of Velebit were not on lines that would be turned

21     into trenches and trench warfare, but they were just holding certain

22     local points or fortified places.  The conditions were difficult and the

23     aim was to gain the upper hand and to disperse the enemy as much as

24     possible, to cut him off in as main points as possible, and to let him

25     know that by introducing so many units and men and by covering military

Page 25370

 1     targets with precise artillery fire, that we were determined to achieve

 2     our goals.  And this is how we managed to achieve what we needed to do so

 3     that reinforcements could not be introduced behind our own forces.

 4        Q.   And the terrain across which you advanced from Velebit towards

 5     another place, how densely populated was it?

 6        A.   It can be noted that the area of Licko Polje is one of the most

 7     sparsely populated areas in Croatia.  If we talk about populated places,

 8     in the axis of advance, there were just hamlets, a few houses scattered

 9     here and there, so it is only occasionally populated area, very sparsely

10     populated, because people keep cattle in this area and there were not too

11     many populated places on the axis of the advance of special police units.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, neither my colleagues nor myself do

13     fully understand the relevance of what you are asking now, whether it was

14     of strategic importance where this unit was, or tactical importance.  It

15     is totally unclear to us.  So if you'd please focus your questions in

16     such a way that we understand how the answers could assist us.

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will try to, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvrk, during the combat advance on the first

19     and second days of the Operation Storm, did you come across any

20     civilians?  Did you have any combat contacts in the area that included

21     any civilians?

22        A.   One should say that the area of Velebit is unpopulated; that was

23     where the special police was.  And on the first day, after we achieved

24     the combat results by making it impossible for the enemy to reinforce his

25     units on our axis, on the first day, it was practically impossible to

Page 25371

 1     come across any civilians because of the terrain.  And on the second day,

 2     when we went further in the direction of Gospic, I could say that the

 3     space was almost completely empty, because the area of Medak pocket was a

 4     depression which, without further advance, could easily be completely

 5     surrounded.  So it was logical that the enemy, together with the

 6     population and everything they could take with themselves, withdrew from

 7     there so that there were practically no civilians left in the area

 8     through which we advanced from the village of Ruke towards Lovinac,

 9     Sveti Rok, and to the west, that is to say, the north-west, in the

10     direction of Gospic.

11        Q.   In the information that you received before the operation, did

12     you learn anything about the enemy formations which were standing, so to

13     speak, on the other side, facing you?

14        A.   Yes.  As I said, that was part of the intelligence that we

15     received, as part of the order for carrying out our combat operation.

16             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]  Could we please see the document

17     D435.

18        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, I will show you now a document which is already in

19     evidence.  It is a document issued by the commander of the 9th Motorised

20     Gracac Brigade of the Serbian Army of Krajina.

21             Let me first ask you if you ever had a chance to see this

22     document?

23        A.   I saw this document during the preparation for my testimony.

24        Q.   I meant before that.

25        A.   Not before that.

Page 25372

 1        Q.   I will just point out to you some information contained in this

 2     document and then I will ask you to place that in the context of your

 3     observations on the ground.

 4             First of all, it is mentioned here that the command of the

 5     9th Brigade received on the 3rd of August, the day before

 6     Operation Storm, around 2350 hours, the information that an attack of

 7     Ustasha forces was expected.  And then it says that the attack was

 8     launched at around 5.00 a.m. in the region of Mali Alan, and that heavy

 9     artillery fire was launched on the Gospic-Medak axis.  And that the

10     forces had broken through along this axis, and that, as a consequence of

11     that, the brigade had to withdraw, together with the men, and the

12     equipment.

13             On page 2 of this document, there is a listing of all the combat

14     equipment and machinery with which the brigade withdrew.

15             Mr. Cvrk, the tempo of your advance had to be great in this

16     operation.  Is that so?

17        A.   Yes.  It can be confirmed that, as we took control of all this

18     area on foot, then the tempo, as we used few vehicles, was really great.

19        Q.   And during the advance, did you have any contacts with the enemy

20     units which were withdrawing?

21        A.   I can note that on the first day we had intensive combat contact

22     with them and that was continued until we reached the internationally

23     recognised border between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 25373

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] In this document it is stated that the brigade

 3     of the Serbian Army of Krajina managed to pull out practically all its

 4     machinery, except only if there was not enough fuel.  So we can see that

 5     they had tanks and trucks and so on.  And on the third page, in the

 6     conclusion, it is stated that the brigade, on approval of its superior

 7     command, had to begin organised withdrawal and the deployment was such

 8     that they also secured the withdrawal of the civilian population and

 9     their own forces and equipment.

10             Mr. Cvrk, this is military speak, so I would ask you if could you

11     please comment on this formulation.  What does it mean that, by its

12     combat deployment, the brigade secured the withdrawal of its own forces

13     and civilian population?

14        A.   The commander of the 9th Gracac Brigade wanted to sum up the

15     total combat operations of the unit that he commanded by this document

16     and he described the first day of combat operations and of the advance of

17     special police.  And by his combat deployment, he was securing the

18     withdrawal of his forces, equipment and civilian population on the later

19     days which means that he would leave parts of his unit behind the main

20     group of forces so that they would have enough time to withdraw the

21     population as well as the equipment and the members of the entire brigade

22     to Petrovac, which is mentioned there if I'm not mistaken, which means

23     that it was a withdrawal into Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24        Q.   And in the pulling out of the enemy units and your advance, were

25     there any combat contacts between you?

Page 25374

 1        A.   Certainly.  When we achieved the first results on the first day,

 2     the special police, in accordance with further orders, was engaged on

 3     several axes and it also tried to take part of various areas, mainly the

 4     main rows [as interpreted], and then setting up communications for the

 5     needs of logistics and to enable the introduction of reinforcement, if

 6     necessary, and once we achieved our final goal, that is to say, when we

 7     reached the state border, during all these movements by artillery or

 8     infantry weapons or whether it was attacks on the special police units

 9     that was going on throughout all of these days [as interpreted].

10        Q.   What was the axis that, after you took control of the road and

11     the town of Gracac, that the special police units advanced along?

12        A.   There were several orders.  We call them orders D plus 1, D plus

13     2, of D plus 3 orders.

14             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Just for reference to the

15     Chamber, D plus 1, D plus 2, and D plus 3 orders have been admitted as

16     documents D550, then D552, and D322.

17        Q.   Please proceed, Mr. Cvrk.

18        A.   In accordance with these orders, after we achieved the main goals

19     on our first day, on the second day, we went on to liberate the Gracac.

20     Another part of the forces linked up with the forces of the Military

21     District of Gospic, in Gospic.  Then, in the evening, as far as I

22     remember, they continued their advance towards Otric.  I think, Prezid

23     was also successfully liberated.  And already on the second day, in the

24     evening, we advanced with a part of our forces towards Bruvno.

25             On the third day, in accordance with the order, we went towards

Page 25375

 1     Udbina, from Bruvno, and that was the auxiliary axis, while the main part

 2     of the forces went from Bruvno towards Gornji and Donji Lapac, and

 3     finally, in the area of Kulen Vakuf, it reached the state and

 4     administrative border, that is to say, the border between the Republic of

 5     Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             So to say everything briefly, how the special police units

 7     advanced during Operation Storm.

 8        Q.   Did your unit and did you personally have the chance to move

 9     through the town of Gracac during your advance during the Operation

10     Storm?

11        A.   The unit that I commanded, on the second day, in accordance with

12     the order D plus 1, was engaged in the direction of Otric, but at the end

13     of this day, a command post of special police was established in the town

14     of Gracac, and for the purpose of coordination I was invited there.  So I

15     passed through the town of Gracac several times in order to pass on the

16     tasks or to receive tasks, and also on the occasion when the police

17     station in Gracac was opened.  So I was present in the town of Gracac on

18     several occasions.

19        Q.   And as far as you remember, Mr. Cvrk, to what extent was it

20     visible that there was any damage in the town of Gracac as a result of

21     combat operations while you were passing through the town?

22        A.   It was visible that, due to artillery fire, against cross-roads

23     and some legitimate military targets such as the police station and the

24     command of the brigade, that there had been some combat activity and some

25     machinery was abandoned.  It was possible that it was useless or that it

Page 25376

 1     couldn't be pulled out because of the quick advance of special police

 2     units towards Gracac, so that the impression was of an abandoned town

 3     which was in the zone of combat operations.

 4        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, you said that you noticed some damage on the police

 5     station, as well as on the building where the Gracac brigade had been

 6     accommodated.  Do you remember what sort of building that was?  I'm

 7     talking about the command building.

 8        A.   Well, not the command building itself, no, because Gracac was not

 9     part of the tasks I was charged with.  However, the centre where the --

10     subsequently the command of the special police force was set up and where

11     the police station was, I have a pretty good recollection of that,

12     despite the time that lapsed in between, in the meantime.

13        Q.   How would you assess the degree of damage to the buildings in

14     Gracac, to the best of your recollection?

15        A.   Most of the damage was inflicted by artillery shrapnel.  I passed

16     along the main road in the settlement, and there were several buildings

17     aflame, probably due to the same reason.  And laterally, where there was

18     some family homes, there were bullet marks as well.  They were

19     bullet-riddled.

20        Q.   Your unit next proceeded in the direction of Bruvno; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.  That was day D plus 3, since on day plus 2, most of the

23     forces moving along Gornji Donji Vapac [as interpreted] toward

24     Kulen Vakuf gathered there, whereas another batch of forces headed from

25     the area of Bruvno.  When we reached Bruvno that morning, we were

Page 25377

 1     supposed to move in the direction of Udbina and link up with the forces

 2     of the Gospic Military District there.

 3        Q.   After day three of Storm, what were the specific tasks given to

 4     your unit?

 5        A.   If I remember correctly, that was day D plus 3, when the enemy

 6     forces regrouped yet again and reached Kulen Vakuf, from where they

 7     opened artillery fire on us.  They also used tank fire.

 8             The task was to group forces and the -- we received the orders

 9     from the special police units staff, so we're talking about the 8th, when

10     we were supposed to link up with the forces from Gospic.

11             On that day, we were replaced by a military unit, which deployed

12     in our area of activity.  In other words, we completed our task, reached

13     the state border between the Republic of Croatia and the Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereupon we received orders to withdraw from the

15     area since we have completed our mission within Operation Storm.

16        Q.   Members of the units you were in command of and, if you know,

17     other units, how did they move about the front line?  Were vehicles

18     organised for that purpose, or did they walk?

19        A.   As for the movement of special police units, initially, we

20     walked.  We had to traverse a ragged, mountainous area, and a kilometre

21     into the area, we were moving along a slope of some 45 degrees slant.

22     The area didn't have any roads, and we had to cross the Mali Alan pass.

23     We carried some artillery pieces.  We had a -- several APCs.  Roughly

24     those supply routes, Gracac, Obrovac, had to be made passable, and on

25     days D plus 1, plus 2, plus 3, we could use the vehicles we had, our own

Page 25378

 1     vehicles, and they were enough for 40 per cent of our men, 45 to

 2     50 per cent of our men.  However, for the rest, for most of the

 3     operation, we walked in a skirmish line and we walked, where possible,

 4     along the roadways which were along our axis anyway, and, of course,

 5     wherever we expected that we could possibly engage enemy forces.

 6        Q.   What were the vehicles used by the special police in their

 7     advancement for the transportation of personnel and assets?

 8        A.   Different types of vans which could seat some eight to nine men,

 9     all the way to lorries which could carry equipment, ammunition, logistic

10     support, and could also tow some of the rocket and artillery pieces.

11        Q.   What was the extent of the travel that had to be done by the

12     special police forces all the way from Mount Velebit, where they started,

13     to Kulen Vakuf, where they ultimately stopped?

14        A.   The pace at which progress was made was some 20 to 30 kilometres.

15     So in all these days, we covered some 60 to 70 -- 60 to 80 kilometres.

16     But that's an approximation of the pace at which special police forces

17     could advance.

18        Q.   You personally and your unit, did you reach Donji Lapac?

19        A.   Yes, I personally came to Donji Lapac in order to report on our

20     linking up at Udbina with units of the Gospic Military District, the

21     9th Guards Brigade.  I reported on this.  The rocket artillery battery

22     was part of the joint forces, which originally belonged to my units and

23     had been detached and deployed there for combat purposes.  And I think I

24     was on the -- it was on the 7th of August, late in the evening, that I

25     was in Donji Lapac.

Page 25379

 1        Q.   What was the situation like in Lapac as you got there on the

 2     7th of August, in the evening hours?

 3        A.   It was quite obvious that a high degree of combat activity had

 4     taken place there.  The command building and the police station had

 5     received several direct hits.  The hotel, the local hotel was on fire, as

 6     well as a vehicle which had been carrying some assets.  It had been hit

 7     and was on fire.  So there was plenty to see.

 8             What could also be seen was that the special police forces were

 9     deployed deep behind the lines in the direction of Kulen Vakuf, in the

10     direction of the village of Boricevac.  They were deploying along the

11     state border, as I mentioned earlier.

12        Q.   How long did you stay in Lapac?

13        A.   Until night-fall.  I spent some time there with the men from the

14     battery that I referred to.  I had taken orders for further activities,

15     and, unless I'm mistaken, I was invited to a coordination meeting of all

16     special police unit commanders at the staff on the following morning, at

17     some 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning.  And then I returned on the same day,

18     in the evening, under enemy artillery fire, to where my unit was.

19        Q.   The next day was the 8th of August.  What was the task to be

20     carried out by your unit?

21        A.   On the 8th of August, an analysis was made of attacks carried out

22     and results achieved.  The front units stopped which meant that all the

23     units behind had to stop as well, and they had to take stock of what they

24     had done.  At the end of the coordination meeting, most of the units

25     start receiving orders to deploy back to their organic units and this, in

Page 25380

 1     fact, took place on the 9th.

 2        Q.   What was the axis along which your unit was disengaged back to

 3     the Zagreb police administration from the general area of Donji Lapac?

 4        A.   I can't be sure but I think we went via Udbina, Plitvice, on to

 5     Zagreb.  But I'm not positive about that.

 6        Q.   When did you, in fact, reach your organic unit in Zagreb, along

 7     with your men?

 8        A.   We returned to Zagreb in the early afternoon hours of the

 9     9th of August.  We have a record of that, since we passed along the main

10     square in Zagreb, so there has to be a record of that somewhere.

11        Q.   Do you know what happened to other elements of the joint forces

12     after the 8th or the 9th of August, when the end of Operation Storm was

13     formally announced?

14        A.   To my knowledge, most of the units were -- were disengaged, one

15     by one, in succession; and, as far as I remember, until the end of the

16     day, and I'm referring to the 9th of August, all of us had left the

17     general area of Donji Lapac.

18             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up D1103 now, please.

19        Q.   Once the joint forces had done their job, their part of the job

20     in the military/police Operation Storm, there followed a period which was

21     marked by some other activity, and the Trial Chamber heard about this,

22     the sweeping of terrain.

23             You can see the order of the 10th of August, 1995, here, which

24     was issued by the chief of the Main Staff, General Cervenko, according to

25     which the MUP special police units are ordered to carry out the mopping

Page 25381

 1     up and occupy the Petrova Gora area under the orders of

 2     General Mladen Markac.

 3             Can you tell us what the location of Petrova Gora is in relation

 4     to where the joint forces were active in Operation Storm?  Is it part of

 5     Operation South [as interpreted], or is it outside of that area?

 6        A.   As far as I know, the area lies outside of Sector South.  Unless

 7     I'm mistaken, it should come under the Karlovac Military District.

 8     However, since we, as policemen, were not much concerned with the

 9     boundaries of the Military Districts, I can tell you that it was to the

10     north of Sector South where we carried out our tasks during

11     Operation Storm.

12        Q.   Was your unit involved in the sweeping operation of Petrova Gora?

13        A.   I personally, and most of the unit's members were involved in the

14     sweeping operation at Petrova Gora.

15        Q.   This isn't something I have already asked you but, Mr. Cvrk, do

16     you know what was the total number of special policemen who were part of

17     the joint forces during Operation Storm?

18        A.   According to the reports I saw, I think that there were roughly

19     2.200 men involved in Operation Storm, and then subsequently perhaps some

20     fresh forces and logistics men may have been brought in which may have

21     caused the figure to rise to 2500.

22        Q.   How long did the sweeping operation at Petrova Gora last?

23        A.   As far as I remember, not more than ten days.

24        Q.   Following the action which involved the participation of the

25     special police as part of the joint forces, what happened next?  Were

Page 25382

 1     these forces returned to their bases, or were they subsequently

 2     re-engaged in actions of sorts?

 3        A.   The equipment and the composition of the special police forces

 4     were such that we were a highly mobile unit and were able to cross the

 5     country from one end to the next very rapidly and were able to carry out

 6     the most complex of combat tasks.

 7             There were several such actions which ensued after

 8     Operation Storm which were prevalently conditioned by the intelligence

 9     received and the possible infiltration of enemy groups, the leftover

10     enemy soldiers, as well as by the high -- or, rather, the vast territory

11     of the liberated area which had to be searched for straggling enemy

12     soldiers which might cause -- pose a risk.  According to the -- this was

13     done pursuant to the requests of the Ministry of the Interior or of the

14     Main Staff of the Croatian Army.  The special police units were used in

15     such operations, and they were, like this one, termed "sweeping

16     operations," in order to stabilise the situation on the ground and to

17     allow for a smooth restoration of authority in the area, in the liberated

18     area.

19             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could now please see the

20     document D561.

21        Q.   Tying up with what you just told us, Mr. Cvrk, I will show you a

22     document in which the chief of Main Staff, General Zvonimir Cervenko, on

23     the 21st of August, ordered that the terrain is to be searched and mopped

24     up.  And in the introduction he says that some outlaw groups remained in

25     the area next to the state border, as well as in some areas and

Page 25383

 1     facilities that have not yet been searched.  And then he says that the

 2     purpose units of the MUP will do that, and that the chief of Main Staff

 3     makes the commands of the Military Districts and garrisons responsible

 4     for submitting information on the possible presence of enemy groups in

 5     the area.  After this order, issued on 21st August 1995, the search of

 6     the terrain followed in the area which was liberated during

 7     Operation Storm.

 8             Did your unit also participate in this?

 9        A.   Yes.  One part of our unit was engaged, I think it was between

10     120 and 150 members, during this operation which we called, if I remember

11     properly, Oluja-Obrecun [phoen].

12             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see the

13     document D562 now.

14        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, I will show you a report on the search of terrain

15     carried out for the 21st of August, which was submitted by

16     Colonel General Mladen Markac to the Main Staff of the Croatian Army, to

17     General Cervenko, where, under item 3 he mentions that the special police

18     unit of the Zagreb police administration, with 130 of its members, took

19     part in the search of the terrain and that the following materiel and

20     technical equipment such as ammunition for mortars and ammunition for

21     infantry weapons were found.

22             Mr. Cvrk, during these search operations, can you tell me briefly

23     what kind of the terrain was this in the newly liberated areas that were

24     part of the so-called former Republic of Serbian Krajina?

25        A.   This was terrain that was mountainous, very difficult to pass

Page 25384

 1     through and this report only confirms some of the data that we had

 2     previously, and that during the combat contact we had during Operation

 3     Oluja, whether it was the HVO units or the special police units, that we

 4     searched the terrain and found many pieces of abandoned machinery, as

 5     noted in this report.

 6             In addition to that, in this area, in some of the hamlets that we

 7     passed through and everywhere else, there were some civilians whom we

 8     recorded, and fairly quickly we would establish their status and then we

 9     would direct them to receive assistance or to report themselves to police

10     stations or to UNHCR, which was already active, so some people were

11     registered, some were not, so that they would realise their rights to be

12     granted assistance.  These were mostly elderly people who had been left

13     behind and who were mostly very old.

14        Q.   As for the contacts with the civilian population that you found

15     during the searches of the terrain, did you receive any instructions

16     about those from your superiors?

17        A.   We had very precise instructions about the rights of the

18     individual, the international law of war, and, on the final days of

19     Operation Storm, we also had specific instructions about the

20     international personnel who were deployed on the ground, what authority

21     they had and how we could assist them to perform their duties.  Even

22     though we had numerous combat contacts between straggling enemy forces

23     and our own forces, and even though we had wounded members, even 15 days

24     after Operation Storm had de facto been concluded, this was a very strict

25     task for the special police because its purpose was to establish whether

Page 25385

 1     the area that had been liberated was clear of enemy soldiers, first of

 2     all, and also what was the total number of the population that was

 3     possibly left in the area.  So clearly we had to register these people

 4     and inform the special police sector about this in daily reports.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see the

 6     document P576.

 7        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, I will show you a report on a completed search of the

 8     terrain for the day the 25th of August, 1995, submitted also by

 9     Colonel General Mladen Markac to the assistant minister for special

10     police.

11             It says here that the search had been conducted in which area,

12     and somewhere in the middle of the document or thereabouts it says that

13     in the village of Pasici, a suspect male was found and was delivered to

14     crime police for further investigation.

15             It is also mentioned that in the village of Grubor, during the

16     search, eight to ten enemy soldiers were observed, that there was an

17     exchange of fire and that the result was the death of Djuro Karanovic,

18     45 years of age and residing in Belgrade, who was armed with a sniper

19     rifle, and that, after that, Stevan Karanovic who was also armed with a

20     semi-automatic rifle was arrested, and that two other unidentified

21     females and two elderly men, Milos Grubor and Jovo Grubor, were also

22     killed.

23             Mr. Cvrk, did your unit and you, yourself, did you know anything

24     about the events in the village of Grubor on that day, that is to say,

25     the 25th of August, 1995?

Page 25386

 1        A.   As one can see from this report, the unit was engaged on a quite

 2     different axis but the general information that I had, of course, I heard

 3     that there was some activity in the village of Grubori, but I absolutely

 4     do not remember and do not know all the details in connection with this

 5     because I was issued other tasks and I was not member of the command of

 6     the sector that had to carry out these activities and control the

 7     activities of all of us and all the units.

 8        Q.   Further on it says here that during the search in the villages on

 9     the initial position, 52 civilians have been registered -- 54 civilians,

10     that is to say, and eventually it says, at the end, that the Croatian

11     civilian population has not yet established contact with the civilians

12     who were found.  And the list of civilians who were found was made by

13     members of UNCRO.

14             Do you remember that on the occasion of this operation, on the

15     25th, that these 54 civilians were found or was it not on your axis?  Did

16     you learn anything about this?

17        A.   I don't remember exactly but, generally, on all of these days,

18     there were situations when we would come across the persons who had

19     remained in the area, whether persons who had been registered by UNCRO or

20     persons who had registered by reporting themselves to the police stations

21     that had been set up in the area.

22             So these were three main ways for civilians to establish their

23     status in the area.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see P579.

25        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, for your information, this is a report on the task for

Page 25387

 1     the 26th of August, for special police, also submitted by Colonel General

 2     Mladen Markac, wherein it is stated that in the village Knezevici

 3     civilians were found and registered.  And in the village of Karanovac,

 4     six civilians were found.  And then in the village of Ridjane, persons

 5     were found and registered by the regular police from the MUP.

 6             In addition to registering these persons and submitting that to

 7     the regular police of the MUP, did special police have any other

 8     obligations in connection with the civilians found during the search of

 9     the terrain?

10        A.   No.  According to my recollection, the obligation to the

11     civilians, which included all kinds of people, people who couldn't move,

12     who were in need of medical assistance, so sometimes we didn't even have

13     to go to the police stations, and in some hamlets and some positions

14     where we found these elderly people were in areas where roads were very

15     bad.  There were sometimes only paths and these were places difficult to

16     access, so we would register these people.  We needed complete

17     registration of everyone, but that was not really our job to do anything

18     after that.  That was a duty of the authorities on the ground, whether it

19     was the police or whoever communicated with the forces of UNCRO along the

20     axis where we were advancing.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the document

22     P2379 now.

23        Q.   Following up on this, you will see a report on tasks carried out

24     on the 27th of August.  Again, it is a search of the terrain.  And if we

25     move on to page 2 of this report, we will see in paragraph 4, that two

Page 25388

 1     unregistered civilians were also found in the village of Silici [phoen];

 2     in the village were Borovici, another two unidentified civilians; in the

 3     village of Kukolj [phoen], it's the same thing.  And then around 1200, in

 4     the place Kavacevica Stanove [phoen], an attack was launched from

 5     fire-arms by a member of the enemy army who was then arrested and

 6     delivered to military police.

 7             Do you remember, Mr. Cvrk, whether there were any contacts with

 8     straggling enemy soldiers during these operations of the search of the

 9     terrain?

10        A.   One can see from this report and from the fact that some members

11     of the special police unit were wounded because of such contacts, it's

12     evident that there were such contacts, even 20 or 30 or even more days

13     after the conclusion of the Operation Storm.

14        Q.   All the search operations were carried out in Sector South where

15     formally Operation Storm was launched.  How long did they last?  Do you

16     remember?

17        A.   It is certain that they lasted in accordance with orders, and

18     depending on the coordination of the forces of the special police and the

19     Croatian Army, and after the conclusion of pulling out of combat

20     equipment, and once it was established that there shouldn't be many more

21     straggling enemy soldiers left behind, then these search operations

22     stopped.  And I think that -- when I say all this, I'm talking about

23     mid-September or so.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see

25     65 ter 02264 now.

Page 25389

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, just before we move to the next, I

 2     missed perhaps something.

 3             You said, Mr. Cvrk, As you can see from this report and from the

 4     fact that some members of the special police units were wounded because

 5     of such contacts, I'm just trying to find, where in this document, we

 6     find wounded special police officers, but I may have missed it.

 7             Could you help me out?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it is not mentioned in this

 9     document but it is fact that one of our colleagues was wounded in this

10     area.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us further details.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, I'm sure that

13     it was Mr. Labrovic, but as for the exact date on which it happened and

14     the circumstances, I would have to refresh my memory, unfortunately.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see

18     65 ter 02264.

19        Q.   The document that you see on the screen, Mr. Cvrk, is a document

20     informing about the planned activities of the joint special police forces

21     on 8 September 1995, and Colonel General Mladen Markac informs about

22     this.  The area is that of Plitvice, where, if there are any straggling

23     sabotage and terrorist groups, then they should be found.  And it is

24     mentioned then what are the axes but this is the general area of

25     Plitvice.

Page 25390

 1             Mr. Cvrk, did your unit take part in searching the terrain in the

 2     area of Plitvice?

 3        A.   I think so.

 4        Q.   For orientation purposes only, can you tell us whether the area

 5     of Plitvice is within Sector South, in the newly liberated territory?

 6        A.   I didn't pay much heed to that type of delineation.  But if

 7     you're asking me whether the area of Plitvice is without the sector in

 8     which the special police forces under my command pursued activities in

 9     the initial days of Operation Storm, then my question is -- my answer is

10     yes.

11             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document,

12     Your Honour.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I seek clarification when it was said that, When

15     you're asking me if the area is without the sector, did you mean outside

16     the sector?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Concerning my answer, I wanted to

18     say that this was outside or without the sector in which the special

19     police forces pursued their activities in the initial days of

20     Operation Storm, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you for that answer.

22             Ms. Mahindaratne, any objections?

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1837.

Page 25391

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]  I'd like to remind the Court

 3     that concerning the search of the terrain in the area of Plitvice, there

 4     are other documents which I would kindly seek to tender, or would you

 5     rather have me go through each and every of those documents with the

 6     witness?  These are 65 ter documents 00503, 00515, and the sequence of

 7     documents goes up to the 13th of September.  The last of the documents

 8     speaks of the search of the terrain around Plitvice.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can go through them.

11     I'll make it a brief exercise.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking it.  If there's no objections

13     against bar tabling these documents, Ms. Mahindaratne, then the Chamber

14     would expect, as usual, a joint filing in which we are informed about the

15     relevance and specific portions to pay attention to.

16             Now, if you say, So therefore I leave it your hands.  At the same

17     time, I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Mikulicic, I think this witness was

18     announced for two sessions.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  I will finish within five to ten minutes,

20     Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can continue before the break until you've

22     finished, concluded your --

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, we can easily go through one or two

24     documents on that topic as well, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I leave it in your hands --

Page 25392

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as long as you finish within five or ten minutes.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask for the

 5     65 ter document 00515 next.

 6        Q.   It is an information on the planned activities for the

 7     10th of August submitted by Colonel General Mladen Markac in the wider

 8     area of Plitvice, where the joint forces, on the 10th of August, were

 9     supposed to carry out certain activities between 7.00 a.m. and 7.00 p.m.

10     The activities concerned were actually terrain searches.

11             Does this tally with what you can recall, Mr. Cvrk, concerning

12     the searches in the area of Plitvice?

13        A.   Certainly.  These are standard daily reports, daily informations

14     that we were provided with indicating directions and areas that were

15     supposed to be sweeped.

16             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document,

17     Your Honour.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1838.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Next I would kindly ask for D566

23     to be shown.

24        Q.   The document we are about to see, Mr. Cvrk, has already been

25     admitted.  It is a joint report on the completed task of the search in

Page 25393

 1     the broader area of the National Park Plitvice of the 12th of September,

 2     1995, in which mention is made of the fact that the terrain of the

 3     national park of Plitvice was searched, covering 22 by 40 kilometres.

 4     The total area was 880 square kilometres.  It says that, daily, members

 5     of the special police searched some 25 kilometres of terrain in skirmish

 6     lines at distances between 1500 metres between each member.  The goal was

 7     to create a secure environment to protect property.

 8             On the second page of this document, it is stated that no

 9     straggling enemy forces were located and that, in total, eight corpses of

10     uniformed unidentified soldiers were found and the corpses were already

11     in a state of decay or putrefaction.  It is also stated that several

12     elderly persons were found and taken care of in several villages, and

13     that their citizenship status was resolved accordingly.

14             It is also stated that 16 B and H nationals were found who had

15     illegally crossed the state border, and sporting individual items of

16     clothing that belonged to uniforms.

17             On the next page, we have mines and explosives of which a certain

18     amount was found, and mention is also made that the bed of the lake that

19     was in the area was searched by the special police members who were scuba

20     divers.  This is the concerning the sweeping of the terrain.

21             Were members of your unit included in these speciality searches

22     such as the search of the lake -- of the lakes, actually, at Plitvice?

23        A.   I believe that our frogmen basically came from the anti-terrorist

24     unit of Lucko.  We did have a scuba diver for the needs of the Zagreb

25     police administration, in order to extract bodies of casualties or to

Page 25394

 1     search certain water beds of which there were many in our police

 2     administration territory.  But at that time, that speciality group was

 3     attached to the anti-terrorist unit of Lucko, as well as to the

 4     administrations in Split and Rijeka.  I believe therefore that their

 5     personnel was used to search the Plitvice lakes.

 6             When we arrived there, it was widely believed that the barriers

 7     separating the individual levels of the lakes were mined in order to

 8     disturb the further flow of the river, and this was supposed to be

 9     ascertained by the frogmen of the special police.

10             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] In conclusion, I would ask for

11     D1105.

12             After the searches were carried out in Plitvice, on the

13     11th of September, a new order arrived from the chief of the Main Staff,

14     Mr. Cervenko, by virtue of which it is ordered that the special forces of

15     the MUP, amounting to about 2.000 men, should be sent to the southern

16     theatre, in keeping with their deployment plan.

17             Two questions concerning this.  Which part of the Croatian

18     territory does this refer to when the southern theatre is mentioned; and

19     did any of your units members take part in this new task issued by the

20     commander of the Main Staff?

21        A.   I am certain that a unit I commanded was also encompassed this.

22     This is about the line of separation along the state borders of Croatia

23     and Bosnia.  If I am not mistaken, it was also a border to Montenegro and

24     Serbia, and the general area of the town of Dubrovnik.

25        Q.   You were subordinated to Mr. Markac, who was assistant interior

Page 25395

 1     minister for the special police during a certain period of time.  In a

 2     few words, can you tell us what was your relationship to him and what is

 3     your opinion of him as a commander and as an ordinary person?

 4        A.   After my arrival in the special police and in particular after I

 5     was appointed commander of the Alpha Unit, I kept permanent contact with

 6     the assistant minister for the interior, Mr. Mladen Markac.  I can tell

 7     you about Mr. Markac as my wartime commander that, by virtue of his

 8     activities and his attempts to be specific in terms of organisational and

 9     personnel needs as well as any other needs to ensure the work of the

10     special police, he tried to use his influence to create the conditions

11     within the ministry so that those forces could be trained, that they

12     could act properly, be equipped -- equipped properly, and that the entire

13     special police structure be put in place.

14             I believe by virtue of those actions, by creating the necessary

15     preconditions as well as the implementing of systematic training as well

16     as issuing -- by issuing direct orders, and creating conditions in which

17     we were on a par in terms of equipment with our enemy, he created

18     favourable conditions for work in the special police forces in general,

19     as well in the overall context of armed forces in Croatia.

20             I believe much is due to him, because he achieved much through

21     the Ministry of the Interior.  I consider him a highly moral person.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Cvrk.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

24     questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will have a break and resume at five minutes

Page 25396

 1     to 1.00.

 2             And after the break, Mr. Cvrk, cross-examination will start.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, apologies for the late start.

 6             I don't know who is on his feet for the.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President, we have no questions.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no questions.

 9             MR. KAY:  No questions, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions.

11             Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may proceed.

14             Mr. Cvrk, you will be cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne.

15     Ms. Mahindaratne is counsel for the Prosecution.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Cvrk.

20        A.   Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor.

21        Q.   I just wanted to ask you, when you were interviewed on behalf of

22     the Defence team for Mr. Markac, you were interviewed by

23     Mr. Franjo Djurica and Anto Soljic.  Isn't that correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And Mr. Djurica Franjo was the chief of the police coordinators

Page 25397

 1     appointed to OZ Sector South, in August 1995, in the aftermath of

 2     Operation Storm.  Isn't that correct?

 3        A.   I think that's correct.

 4        Q.   And he held that position until December 1995; are you aware of

 5     that?

 6        A.   I'm not aware of the details, since Mr. Franjo Djurica was

 7     connected to the police sector of the Ministry of the Interior through

 8     his work.  We cooperated at a later date on the peaceful reintegration of

 9     Eastern Slavonia.  I am not aware of what his duties were when he was in

10     charge of coordinating special police units.

11        Q.   You referred to coordinating special police units.  Did you mean

12     to say coordinating police units, because Mr. Franjo Djurica was a police

13     coordinator attached to the Ministry of Interior, isn't that correct, he

14     was not part of the special police?  I wonder whether you made a mistake

15     when you mentioned the word "special police."

16        A.   If we're talking about 1995 and the position of the coordinator

17     on behalf of the police, that particular position had predominantly to do

18     with the forces of the newly set up police stations in Sector South.

19        Q.   That's the clarification I sought.

20             And were you aware that, in fact, the police coordinators in

21     charge of the Knin area, Mr. Baric and Mr. Buhin, in fact reported to

22     Mr. Djurica; isn't that correct?

23        A.   I can't confirm this with any degree of certainty, since I was

24     busy with the work on the ground.  It was the sector of the special

25     police which dealt with police coordination.  We were one of the

Page 25398

 1     elements.  I wasn't active in the special police sector in order for me

 2     to be able to confirm this.

 3        Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Djurica himself is on the list of

 4     witnesses for the Defence for Mr. Markac?

 5        A.   As far as this trial is concerned and my appearance, I was

 6     contacted a year and a half ago, in order to give my statement, together

 7     with these individuals who were signed here.

 8             Now, as for the witnesses who would appear on behalf of

 9     General Markac, I'm aware only of the information that was available to

10     me, and I did not hear that Mr. Djurica was on the list of witnesses.

11        Q.   Now, the second person who interviewed you, Mr. Anto Soljic, was

12     the head of the inner control branch of the special police during that

13     the whole of 1995, going into 1996; isn't that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.  Mr. Anto Soljic was the chief of the internal

15     control of the special police sector.

16        Q.   And isn't it right that the internal control of the special

17     police sector was responsible for monitoring and reporting on the

18     discipline of the special police units to the special police sector

19     command?

20        A.   Internal control gathered information about the overall

21     activities of the unit, primarily, those relating to discipline, and

22     processed the information for the purposes of the special police sector

23     and for the purposes of a report that was sent to the Ministry of the

24     Interior.

25        Q.   Are you aware that the internal control, in fact, submitted

Page 25399

 1     reports of discipline within the units, in fact, to the special police

 2     sector, that is, Mr. Markac and Mr. Sacic?  Were you aware of that?

 3        A.   From the experience I have as commander of the unit, the internal

 4     control did not have any major bearing on the state of affairs with

 5     regard to discipline.  They were mostly involved, like in Operation

 6     Storm, in gathering counter-intelligence information of units and

 7     information on the enemy in general, and it had to do with putting

 8     together intelligence operatives.

 9             So these were the duties that the internal control of the special

10     police sector had, as far as I'm able to remember.

11        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, I have a problem trying to understand.  Your previous

12     answer was this:  Internal control gathered information about the overall

13     activities of the unit, primarily those relating to discipline, and

14     processed the information for the purpose of the special police sector

15     and for the purposes of a report that was sent to the Ministry of the

16     Interior.

17             But thereafter, you now say:  From the experience I have as

18     commander of the unit, the internal control did not have any major

19     bearing on the state of affairs with regard to discipline.

20             Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

21             Now, is it correct that internal control branch was a section of

22     the special police that monitored discipline within the units and

23     maintained records and reported on the state of discipline to the special

24     police sector command?  And when I use the word "sector command," I refer

25     to Mr. Markac and Mr. Sacic?

Page 25400

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I think he has answered that already,

 2     Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I was just waiting for the French

 4     translation.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  He has answered the

 6     question and just because she doesn't like the way he has answered the

 7     question, doesn't mean that she gets to ask it again.

 8             There were two separate questions.  The first question was on

 9     line -- page 68, line 20, she asked him a specific question about

10     internal control of the special police and he answered the specific

11     question.

12             The problem was -- the problem is she answered -- asked a

13     separate question in which he gave an answer which was also correct, and

14     I think the Prosecution is confused as to which answer compares to which

15     question.  And I think the person -- the witness has answered the

16     question both times and to ask it again I think is repetitive.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether the answer to the second question was

18     correct or not, Mr. Kuzmanovic, I wouldn't know yet.

19             The problem -- let me just re-read it.

20             Yes, the problem arises because your first question was a

21     question about facts and the second question was about a judgement.  And

22     that, at the same time, Mr. Kuzmanovic, is a key to the solution.

23     Ms. Mahindaratne, you may ask once whether -- that you have some

24     difficulties in reconciling your judgement with the factual answer, but,

25     then, you have to move on.  And, of course, you can address the matter in

Page 25401

 1     other ways.  But that is the problem if a witness of fact is asked to

 2     give his judgement, whether it has any bearing is typically a matter of

 3     judgement, that that creates these kind of situations and I therefore

 4     urge you to -- to, as much as possible, stick to the facts.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 7        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, if you could just answer this question:  Were you aware

 8     that the inner control branch submitted reports on the state of

 9     discipline of the special police units to the special police sector

10     command?

11        A.   In terms of making annual reports on disciplinary proceedings and

12     in terms of the work of operatives, well, they did process all the data

13     concerning these units and included it in the intelligence analysis that

14     the special police sector produced.  In addition to this, we had monthly

15     reports that we made concerning all the activities taken by a given

16     special police unit within its area of responsibility over a 30-day

17     period.  It is possible that, alongside this, there was an uninterrupted

18     analysis made of all things that were done in that sector.

19        Q.   Did you, as head of a special police unit in Zagreb, report to

20     Mr. Soljic on discipline within your unit?

21        A.   No.  I was responsible for my line of work to the assistant

22     minister, to Mr. Markac, the head of the special police department, and

23     to the -- to Mr. Sacic, the head of the special police sector to whom I

24     addressed the report and for whose benefit I wrote it.

25        Q.   Thank you for that.

Page 25402

 1             Now, there was some discussion about discipline within the

 2     special police.  Now, are you aware that, if -- before that.

 3             You testified that as the head of the special police unit, you

 4     were responsible for initiating disciplinary measures against members of

 5     your unit when they committed breaches of discipline.

 6             Now, isn't that correct that if you, as the -- the commander of

 7     the special police unit in Zagreb, did not initiate disciplinary measures

 8     against a member who had committed a breach, General Markac had the

 9     authority to directly order you to do so.  Isn't that right?

10        A.   As I've already explained, there were minor and major breaches of

11     discipline.  The -- it is set out that the minister may confer his

12     authority to chiefs of police administrations on this score, which he

13     did.  Then the chiefs of police administrations, in turn, conferred this

14     power on to heads of certain departments.  The Zagreb police

15     administration, as a whole, had conferred upon me the power to initiate

16     disciplinary proceedings, to take disciplinary measures against those

17     members of my unit who committed minor breaches of discipline, or to

18     initiate there disciplinary proceedings be launched in the first instance

19     within the police administration and within the ministry in the second

20     instance.

21             Throughout my career, I had never been faced with a situation

22     where Mr. Mladen Markac or the special police sector called upon me to

23     initiate disciplinary proceedings against a member of the special police

24     for a minor or a major breach of discipline.

25        Q.   Although you have not come across such situations, are you aware

Page 25403

 1     that General Markac this the authority to do so, that he could, in fact,

 2     order a commander of a special police unit to initiate discipline against

 3     a member of that unit?  Were you aware of that?

 4        A.   This may be so, but only where the sector of the special police

 5     itself was concerned and its employees, the helicopter unit which was

 6     part of the special police sector and the Lucko Anti-Terrorist Unit which

 7     was also part of the special police sector.  It was only in these cases

 8     that this could have done directly.  But I am not aware of any other such

 9     cases involving units that were under police administrations.  We were

10     the ones who were directly responsible for discipline.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may have I document P610,

12     please.

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Cvrk --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, I'm a bit confused by the last

15     answer and I would like to seek clarification before we continue.

16             You said only in relation to those units you specifically

17     mentioned, that is, the helicopter unit and the Lucko Unit, that it was

18     only in these cases that this could have done directly.

19             Now, I understood from Ms. Mahindaratne's question that she asked

20     you whether Mr. Markac could instruct you to take disciplinary measures

21     against someone of your subordinates, which I would consider indirect

22     approach.  That is, Mr. Markac -- you told us he never did but that at

23     least in theory, Mr. Markac instructed you to take disciplinary measures.

24             Now, is that what you had on your mind when you said this was

25     only -- let's try to get it simple again.  Do you dispute that Mr. Markac

Page 25404

 1     had the authority, whether he ever used it is a different matter, but

 2     whether -- that he the authority to instruct you to take disciplinary

 3     measures against one of your subordinates if he was aware of any

 4     undisciplined behaviour?

 5             Do you dispute that, or do you agree with Ms. Mahindaratne on

 6     this matter?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of the way in which the

 8     Ministry of the Interior functioned in layers and the fact that the

 9     assistant minister was on the specialist collegium, it is possible that

10     certain breaches of discipline were discussed at that level, and that it

11     was on the General's insistence that some of the disciplinary proceedings

12     were initiated.  So I'm not disputing the fact that perhaps

13     General Markac may have insisted that disciplinary proceedings be

14     initiated in relation to certain breaches of discipline.  So I'm not

15     denying that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And he did that within the limits of his

17     authority, from what I understand.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, I called this document up prior to the Chamber's

22     questioning.  Perhaps if could you look at this.  I just wanted to point

23     this out to you, since you that said that General Markac's disciplinary

24     authority was only in relation to the -- the helicopter unit and

25     Lucko Unit.  But, however, upon clarification now, I don't need to go

Page 25405

 1     through this.

 2             But do you agree that although -- I withdraw that, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If the matter has become clear --

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- without the document, then we can move on.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Cvrk, there was a discussion about statistics relating

10     to discipline.  Mr. Mikulicic dealt with that, and I believe the

11     document, D528 - we don't need that document on the screen - you were

12     shown statistics provided by -- in relation to your unit as well as other

13     units and there was a discussion between you and the Chamber also.

14             Now, I'd like to show you a document.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if I could have P2370.

16        Q.   The document you're going to see will be extracts of the MUP

17     employment code.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could go to -- in

19     the English that would be the -- the second document on the e-court.  And

20     the Croatian version, page 16.  That would be Article -- yeah.

21        Q.   Now, as you can see, you'll see in a moment, in the Croatian

22     version, Article 48 lists out what minor infringement is and Article 49

23     lists out what a major infringement, a serious infringement of work

24     discipline is.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Now, in the English, if could you move to the

Page 25406

 1     next page, Mr. Registrar, as well as the Croatian version.

 2        Q.   There are 26 types of conduct that came within the description of

 3     serious infringement of work discipline.  Therefore, would you agree with

 4     me that those statistics which show specific numbers of disciplinary

 5     processes meted out in relation to members of the separate units would

 6     not provide the Trial Chamber with any guidance as to exactly what type

 7     of conduct was subject to those disciplinary measures?

 8             Do you understand my question?

 9        A.   I do understand your question.  But as you put it yourself, in

10     those disciplinary proceedings involving major breaches of discipline,

11     there are 26 different items envisaged.  And it would not have been

12     possible for us to make a description of what the minor or major breach

13     of discipline was.  However, it never was a problem to examine each and

14     every one of these breaches of discipline in detail to see what exactly

15     they involved, and if I recall correctly, we even had several instances

16     which involved crimes, and at the end of disciplinary proceedings it so

17     happened that the individuals concerned were fired.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have P1155.

19        Q.   Now, for example, you can see in this order, General Markac has

20     requested disciplinary proceedings against a member of the Lucko Unit for

21     his failure to respond to an order to participate in training.

22             Now, you would agree with me, isn't it, therefore, that those

23     numbers, those statistics, include all these type of infringements which

24     were also considered under the MUP employment code as serious breaches of

25     discipline?

Page 25407

 1        A.   That's right, Madam Prosecutor.

 2        Q.   Were you aware, Mr. Cvrk, that Mr. Markac had the authority to

 3     directly suspend a member of the -- of any one of the special police

 4     units, if he found them to have committed a breach of discipline?

 5        A.   If this authority was transferred on him by the minister of the

 6     interior, then that is correct.

 7        Q.   My question is:  Were -- are you aware that that was the case?

 8        A.   As I wasn't working in the special police sector, I am not

 9     100 per cent aware of that.

10        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, you were the commander of the special police unit of

11     Zagreb.  Now, as the commander, were you not aware that the commander of

12     the special police sector, Mr. Markac, had the authority to suspend a

13     member of your unit, if he considered that necessary, in the interests of

14     discipline of the special police?

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I just want to ask for a little clarification.

16     Is that in general or in certain circumstances?  It's a pretty broad

17     question.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I think it is specific enough, Mr. President.

19     I just can't figure out how to narrow it down any further.  It's a very

20     straightforward question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the issue is not the matter raised by

22     Mr. Kuzmanovic.  However, the problem may be there in view of the

23     previous answer.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, that's why I -- my -- I just

25     wanted to bring him to his particular specific position since he used the

Page 25408

 1     word "sector" I believe as a command --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although the problem was higher up, I think.

 3     It was -- he said if the authority was transferred upon him by the

 4     minister of the interior, then that is correct and he could not --

 5             But --

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  My question would be more factual

 7     Mr. President, whether he is aware, not in an argumentative --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You may proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.  Please

 9     keep in mind what I just said.  Putting next questions to overcome an

10     uncertainty without clearly identifying that uncertainty for the next

11     answer is not something that assists the Chamber.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.  Let me call up my

13     document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, yes.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I have document 609,

16     please.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Is that a P Document, I'm assuming?

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  P609.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

21        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, do you note Mr. Markac's order to the commander of the

22     anti-terrorist unit Lucko, where he proposes for initiating a

23     disciplinary procedure and the decision on suspension from duty.  He

24     reads:

25             "To bring to your attention and for further use, we hereby submit

Page 25409

 1     this proposal for initiating a disciplinary procedure against a member of

 2     the ATJ Lucko," and the name is recorded, "and the decision on suspension

 3     from duty?"

 4             And can you read the rest of the document.  Do you note my point

 5     that General Markac had the authority to suspend a member of a special

 6     police unit directly, if he deemed it necessary?

 7        A.   I wish to clarify the previous question [as interpreted] and try

 8     to answer your question; namely, the disciplinary rules of the MUP of the

 9     Republic of Croatia says that a decision on suspension can be taken by

10     the minister of the interior or a person authorised accordingly by him.

11     As I worked as part of the police administration of Zagreb, the person

12     that he authorised is the chief of the police administration.

13             As here, we're talking about a member of the anti-terrorist unit

14     of Lucko which is a part of the special police sector there is a

15     possibility that, in relation to these members of the special police

16     sector, including the helicopter unit, including the anti-terrorist unit

17     of Lucko, the minister had authorised in accordance with his own

18     authority General Markac, among others.  But I didn't know about this

19     when I received a decision about this from the chief of the special

20     police -- from the police administration.  So that is what I meant.

21        Q.   Mr. Cvrk, in fact, the chief of the police administration of

22     Zadar-Knin police administration testified here, Mr. Cetina.  Have you

23     heard of him?

24        A.   Yes, I have heard of this gentleman.

25        Q.   And in fact his testimony about his authority or what he could do

Page 25410

 1     with the special police unit attached to his police administration was

 2     completely contrary to what you are saying.  And let me read that to you.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have D1745, please.

 4             For the record, that's the statement of the Witness Cetina.  And

 5     if we could go --

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sorry to interrupt.  It's not on the list of

 7     cross documents.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, this is testimony in court, the

10     statement of a witness is testimony in court.  It's not a document.  That

11     generally we do not list testimony transcript numbers or statement

12     numbers.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic --

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If the --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if the document here serves to put to the witness

16     what is the equivalent of oral testimony, that is, attested witness

17     statements --

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I don't have a problem with that, Your Honour.

19     Normally we attach witness statements to our exhibit lists if it is

20     marked as an exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But I also heard you say that you have no problem

22     with it.  You wanted to put it on the record and that's it.

23             Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne -- no, it depends on what

24     Mr. Kehoe --

25             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have a problem with this.  I

Page 25411

 1     mean, the practice has been, throughout this, we are listing exhibits

 2     that each side is going to use.  And this is a piece of evidence that is

 3     given an exhibit number, admitted into evidence, and that we've had --

 4     routinely done that.  I am somewhat surprised - I'm shocked, I should

 5     say - by the comment by counsel that this is not a piece of evidence that

 6     needs to be disclosed.  Because that clearly has not been the practice

 7     since March of 2008.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If I may respond Mr. President.  This is

10     testimony --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, you can -- I must admit that I have

12     no clear recollection whether, always, this has been done but on -- let's

13     just assume it -- it was done.  It certainly is not done -- specific

14     portions of the testimony of a witness were not identified in advance.

15             Now, here we are a bit at a cross-roads of, on the one hand, a

16     statement which is, as I said before, equivalent to testimony given in

17     court.  And, at the same time, being exhibited and not being just

18     transcript references.

19             So, therefore, I have not given it -- and I could discuss it with

20     my colleagues.

21             Now Mr. Kuzmanovic said that he just wanted to have this on the

22     record.

23             Mr. Kehoe, is it a matter, you would say, it cannot be put to the

24     witness or is it something that we could perhaps, in a quiet moment,

25     further discuss what we expect the parties to do?  I mean, is your

Page 25412

 1     concern at this moment in relation to this question put to this witness,

 2     or is it a kind of a general observation that you are concerned about

 3     what Ms. Mahindaratne said?

 4             MR. KEHOE:  I am -- I am not raising a concern with regard to

 5     this witness.  I'm raising a more global concern that we raised in an

 6     e-mail with the OTP recently.  And Chambers, excuse me.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I suggest that we try not to -- for us to

 8     observe this battle or for you to fight this battle in the presence of

 9     the witness who -- where apparently there is no specific problem in

10     putting this to him.

11             Ms. Mahindaratne, the matter is not off the table but we proceed

12     with this witness at this moment.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I proceed on this particular issue, Mr.

15     President, or is that an indication that I should not address it at this

16     stage?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, can you put to the witness as you intended to.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Mr. Registrar, if we could move to page 4 of this -- in the

20     English statement, and in the Croatian version, page 3.

21        Q.   And you see, Mr. Cvrk, if you could focus on the -- in the

22     English version, the fourth paragraph and can you see -- I'm referring to

23     the paragraph that starts with:

24             "There were also so-called special police units.  They were not

25     under the command of the police administration but were directly

Page 25413

 1     answerable to the MUP.  They had a different building, different

 2     uniforms, and they were not doing regular police duties.  According to

 3     the law, in peacetime, their professional tasks were the prevention of

 4     bigger unrest, resolving hijacking, kidnapping and similar jobs."

 5             Then a few lines below, he says:

 6             "I did not know what their tasks were, if they had any, which

 7     they coordinated directly with the MUP headquarters.  I personally was

 8     not involved in drafting their plans.  The special police units had

 9     also" -- and then he -- a couple of lines below:

10             "The commander of the special police unit in Zadar was

11     Svemir Vrsaljko.  I do not know how many people were under his command.

12     I have never been informed about the special tasks undertaken by those

13     special police units.  I never had any meetings with representatives of

14     the special police units.  At the time of Storm, I had no control over

15     the special police.  The police system that I was in was designed for

16     peacetime, not wartime."

17             And then, Mr. Cvrk, he was further asked about his disciplinary

18     authority over special police units in court, and this is transcript

19     reference page 23593, and this is what was asked and this is his

20     testimony:

21             "Now, isn't it correct that if a member of the special police

22     forces committed an offence, that requests for disciplinary procedure,

23     initiation of disciplinary procedures had to be made by the commander of

24     the special police sector and not yourself?

25             "Yes, that's how it was."

Page 25414

 1             This is Mr. Cetina's testimony, which is quite different to what

 2     you are saying here.  Can you reconcile his testimony with what you are

 3     saying here, or do you want to clarify what you have stated so far?

 4        A.  Everything I said so far is based on the rules of the Ministry of

 5     Interior.  There are disciplinary rules of the Ministry of Interior

 6     relating to discipline, and everything else that I was talking about, the

 7     interior structure, the way it all operated, how certain orders were

 8     submitted through chiefs of police administrations, and engagement of

 9     special police units in joint forces, all of that is very transparent.

10     and just as my police administration chief received everything, I cannot

11     see any reason why the chief of the Zadar and Knin police administration,

12     Mr. Cetina, would not receive it.

13             Why Mr. Cetina stated this, I don't know, and I couldn't tell

14     but, at the time when he was appointed the chief of the police

15     administration, he was one of the younger people, as far as I can

16     remember, and de facto upon his appointment he needed to learn much more

17     than others and I think this is visible from his statement.  One part of

18     his statement, for me, demonstrates a lack of knowledge of the position

19     to which he was appointed.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, I'm looking at the clock.  We're

21     already three minutes late.

22             Therefore, we will adjourn for the day.

23             Mr. Cvrk, I would like to instruct you that you should not speak

24     with anyone about your testimony, irrespective of whether that is

25     testimony you've given today or whether that's testimony still to be

Page 25415

 1     given tomorrow.

 2             Then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00,

 3     because we adjourn, and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

 4     1st of December, 9.00, Courtroom III.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st of December,

 7                           2009, at 9.00 a.m.