Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25587

 1                           Thursday, 3 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

11     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Mr. Kay, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

14             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moric, I would like to remind you, as I did

16     yesterday, that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have

17     given at the beginning your testimony.  That is to say, that you will

18     speak the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

19             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

20             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           WITNESS:  JOSKO MORIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Moric.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 25588

 1        Q.   I'm going to ask you a series of questions which will be based on

 2     your interview with the Office of the Prosecutor.  And the first

 3     questions I'm going to ask you about concern the planning for

 4     Operation Oluja.

 5             MR. KAY:  So if we could have Exhibit D1842.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You're working from the revised version, Mr. Kay.

 7     Is that ...

 8             MR. KAY:  Absolutely.  It's the only one I know, Your Honour, I

 9     hope.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, others are struggling with --

11             MR. KAY:  I will even do one better.  E-court page 169.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. KAY:

14        Q.   Mr. Moric, on your right-hand side, a document will come up

15     concerning a series of questions from Mr. Foster to you on this matter.

16             MR. KAY:  And if we just go further down the page.  There we are.

17        Q.   And you can see line 18 in your language, you give information

18     concerning a meeting that Mr. Jarnjak organised with some of his

19     assistants and heads of police administrations.  And you discuss the

20     preparation of separate units.

21             I want to turn your attention now to a document, which is

22     Exhibit D409.

23             This is a document concerning meetings that were held on the

24     2nd of August, 1995.  And the first page there lists various people who

25     were at a meeting in the Croatian defence ministry war room, and a series

Page 25589

 1     of discussions were held by them.

 2             MR. KAY:  Let us now turn to page 5 of this document.

 3        Q.   And can you see at 1730 on the 2nd of August, there was a meeting

 4     in the minister's office.  There's Mr. Susak there, Mr. Jarnjak, and

 5     yourself.  And there was a discussion concerning issues between the

 6     Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Interior, check-points, refugees.

 7     There was a discussion about Operation Flash, as more places will be

 8     occupied.  It can't be the same model.  Military police following the

 9     front line, and civilian police entering the -- the populated areas.

10             MR. KAY:  If we turn to the next page.

11        Q.   Various matters concerning routes, highways, and Minister Jarnjak

12     referring to reception centres, interviews:

13             "All MUP reserve units are mobilized on the 3rd and

14     4th of August, 1995, and they enter the liberated regions and take over

15     power.

16             "The police administration will be in Knin and Glina.

17             "The staff will be in the MUP."

18             And someone called Lackovic will be in the information staff.

19             Having referred you to these notes concerning this meeting, I

20     want to ask you matters now concerning Mr. Jarnjak's statement of the

21     intentions of the MUP that we see on page 6.

22             Firstly, on this date, the 2nd of August, had there been any

23     actual preparation concerning the establishment of the Kotar-Knin Police

24     Administration?

25        A.   Counsel, there was no special need, as far as I recall, to

Page 25590

 1     discuss that issue then, because within the context of Operation Return,

 2     the police stations were ready to send crews to return to that area

 3     irrespective of whether the return process was to take place in a

 4     peaceful manner or by having the territory liberated.

 5        Q.   So, at this stage, on the 2nd of August, Minister Jarnjak had

 6     already in place the methods by which the MUP would take over power; is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yesterday we had an opportunity to see that Operation Return was

 9     initiated in January 1992, and that, as of that time, we began our

10     preparations to have the police return to the area, among other things,

11     in keeping with the Vance Plan.

12        Q.   I'm interested in the phrase here, "take over power," which is

13     one that has been seen elsewhere, and as to what exactly that meant "take

14     over power"?

15        A.   Given that this was uttered by the minister of the interior, it

16     can mean to assume authority within the context of authority of the MUP,

17     which directs the conduct of the police and other elements of the

18     Ministry of the Interior.

19        Q.   And is it correct that the procedure, the plan that was devised,

20     was that after the military police had followed the military, that the

21     MUP would go in after the military police to take over power?

22        A.   That is correct.  But the police was not to take over power in

23     the full sense of the word.  It was there to take on the responsibility

24     for the work that was within their remit.  They were not there to take

25     over power.

Page 25591

 1        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. KAY:  If we can turn, now, to the next document, Exhibit D45.

 3        Q.   This document, Mr. Moric, concerns the records of a meeting that

 4     was held on the next day, the 3rd of August.  And these notes are dated

 5     the 4th of August.  And they were from the military police

 6     administration, and they were sent to you and other senior members,

 7     including Mr. Djurica of the Ministry of Interior.  If you can see the

 8     front page of the document there, records from working meeting held on

 9     the 3rd of August, and they're signed by General Lausic of the military

10     police.

11             MR. KAY:  What I want to do is, if the Usher can go through to

12     page 3 of this document.

13        Q.   And can you see that the topic of the meeting --

14             MR. KAY:  Maybe the Croatian goes back a page.  Yes, that's there

15     in the Croatian.

16        Q.   Can you see there that the topic of the meeting was coordination

17     of the activities of the MUP, military police, and SIS in the period of

18     preparation and during the planned offensive actions of the

19     Croatian army.

20             And we see your team there.

21             MR. KAY:  Next page in the English, please.

22        Q.   And can you see the team from the military police.

23             And you open the meeting, in which you refer to the fundamental

24     principles of the operation of the police and military police in the

25     state of war, basing experiences on Western Slavonia, and that you and

Page 25592

 1     General Lausic were aware of some negative experiences of the operation

 2     in Western Slavonia, and you had the joint task to eliminate problems and

 3     mistakes which were observed then.  And you have to ensure full

 4     cooperation an absolute carrying out of the tasks from their scope of

 5     activities.

 6             Now, if you could just refer there to what problems and mistakes

 7     you and General Lausic had identified that were to be dealt with in the

 8     future.

 9        A.   The issue at hand are the problems.  We experienced, in the

10     previous liberation operation of Flash, that is, lack of cooperation

11     between the military and civilian police.  There was much time wasted

12     because of that and much efficiency as well.

13        Q.   And by that, do you mean the military police and civilian police?

14        A.   Yes, the military and civilian police.

15        Q.   At this meeting on the 3rd of August, was it clear as between you

16     and General Lausic that General Lausic was responsible for the control of

17     the military to ensure that they did not commit crimes?

18        A.   Counsel, it is clear, based on his job title; Mr. Lausic was the

19     chief of the military police administration.  At that point in time, it

20     was clear to both of us, as well as to the entire Croatian public by that

21     time.

22        Q.   And the idea of having full cooperation, carrying out tasks

23     within the scope of your activities, is it right, required both you and

24     he to understand what was happening on the ground?

25        A.   Certainly.  We had to have reports an information from the field.

Page 25593

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now turn to a document much later in time but

 2     would be worth looking at.

 3             MR. KAY:  That's Exhibit D595.

 4        Q.   And it's the notes of 18th of September concerning the meeting

 5     between the military police and the civilian police at Plitvice.  And

 6     what we have here, Mr. Moric, are notes that were taken by the military

 7     police administration.

 8             Firstly, do you recollect having that meeting with your police

 9     officers and the military police officers on the -- on the 13th --

10     15th of September at Plitvice?

11        A.   I do recollect that a meeting was held.  If I remember correctly

12     as well, it was upon my initiative.  I asked that we meet there and in

13     that composition.

14        Q.   Yes, you're correct.

15             MR. KAY:  The Court has seen a document, Exhibit D594,

16     Your Honour, dated 13th of September, which is the matter that Mr. Moric

17     is referring to.  I won't call it up.

18             If we can just look at what was dealt with at this meeting.

19     Perhaps if we can go to the next page.

20        Q.   And this meeting was to discuss the lack of effective cooperation

21     between the military police and the civilian police; is that right?

22        A.   In principle, it is.  But the idea of the meeting was, first of

23     all, to use the information we had until then, to look into the state of

24     things, in general, and then analyse how to make it better.  We were also

25     supposed to agree on how to do away with the causes of such a situation.

Page 25594

 1        Q.   Do you recollect if, prior to this meeting, there had previously

 2     been such a large-scale meeting between the Ministry of Interior police

 3     and the military police in the same way?

 4        A.   No, I can't recall that off the top of my head.  But I do not

 5     completely exclude that possibility either.  There were daily contacts

 6     between those in the military police administration and my co-workers, as

 7     well as between General Lausic and myself.

 8        Q.   And do you know if there was contact between Minister Jarnjak and

 9     the military police administration?

10        A.   I am not sure I understood your question well.

11             If you're asking me whether the minister of the interior had

12     contacts with the MP administration in the Ministry of Defence, then my

13     answer would, in principle, be no.  There was no reason for the minister

14     of the interior to do so.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             If we can look at the next page of the document and just run

17     through it, because we see a series of reports from the various police

18     administrations.

19             MR. KAY:  Next pages, please.

20        Q.   And we also see reports from the military police battalions.

21             MR. KAY:  Next page in the English, please.  And next page in the

22     English.  If we could scroll down the English; I'm trying to find -- yes.

23     If we can go back an English page and back a Croatian page, please.

24     Thank you.  Ah, there we are.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Yeah, and it's just General Lausic's remarks there.  If could you

Page 25595

 1     just have a quick look at them.

 2             And the question is this, and it's follow-up to what I asked

 3     about the earlier document:  Did General Lausic accept his responsibility

 4     in relation to the control of military crime?

 5        A.   After having seen this document, I can tell you that it was

 6     obvious that General Lausic realised the magnitude of the problem.  But

 7     in response to your question as to whether he assumed responsibility, I

 8     can only tell you that he had that responsibility prior to the meeting

 9     and after that, since it had been regulated by the legal framework of

10     both of the ministries involved.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  And that now concludes that topic.

12             I'd like to, now, move to another passage of your interview.

13             MR. KAY:  E-court page 185 in Exhibit D1842, please.  And for

14     those using the revised copy, it's pages 71 of 70 -- 71 to 76.  71 of

15     pages 107.

16        Q.   If we go down to the bottom of this page, please.  And English

17     readers can see the question from Mr. Foster:

18             "Who was in control of Knin after the operation had been

19     completed?"

20             And he takes it to run from the 4th of August to the

21     8th of August.

22             MR. KAY:  Can we turn the page, please.

23        Q.   You can see at the top of the page that is translated to you:

24             "So you mean after the 8th of August who was in control?"

25             Mr. Foster says:

Page 25596

 1             "After the 8th August, there was considerable military personnel

 2     still in that region and there was a General Cermak based at the

 3     garrison."

 4             And then he puts the question after that sentence:

 5             "I just want to know, who was the authority at that time?"

 6             Further down the page, you give an answer:

 7             "Who was in control would be everybody and nobody."

 8             As you said, there was a lot of army there:  reserves,

 9     Home Guard.

10             MR. KAY:  Turning to the next page.

11        Q.   You refer to, there was the police, military police, citizens.

12             MR. KAY:  Line 10 in the English, line 14 in the Croatian.

13        Q.   Mr. Foster says:

14             "So we have Ante Gotovina ... in charge of military operations

15     for that area, a General, we also have another military general, Cermak.

16     Can you tell me who was in charge after the 8th?"

17             Line 20 in the English, 18:

18             "In which sense, you know who was in charge."

19             Mr. Foster gives his understanding that civilian control had been

20     returned to the region after the date in theory.

21             Line 28.  And then he goes back to:

22             "...two generals in the region, military generals, and a lot of

23     military there."

24             MR. KAY:  If we go to the next page.

25        Q.   He asks what your understanding was the situation there.  It was

Page 25597

 1     clearly confused, who should have been in control, who should have been

 2     working down there.

 3             You go into the detail on page 74 concerning Storm.

 4             MR. KAY:  Page 75.

 5        Q.   You say at line 9 in the English, 5 in the Croatian:

 6             "When you said that the civilian authority returned, you probably

 7     also referred to emissaries from the government who were sent there in an

 8     attempt to organise civil governance, civil authority in that area."

 9        A.   I do not see this text.

10        Q.   Line 20 -- line 5 on page 75.

11             Can you see line 5 there?  Is that it there?  Yes.

12             Line 24 in the English, 28 in the Croatian:

13             "I understand, of course, there was still ongoing military

14     conflicts."

15             Mr. Foster said his understanding was it was completed by the

16     8th or 9th.

17             And then the next page, line 1 in Croatian, 6 in English:

18             "We also understand that there was also reflections of the

19     operation which required the presence of the military in the area.  Lot

20     of work for the military still, even for special police."

21             And so we get to the point.  Line 11 in the English, 15 in the

22     Croatian:

23             "So my question, again, is, in your view, who in practice, in

24     de facto, who was, do you think, in control of the Knin region after the

25     main operation had been completed?"

Page 25598

 1             And you go back to the original answer you gave on page 72,

 2     line -- not exactly, but in similar terms, line 31 in the English,

 3     29 in the Croatian.

 4             MR. KAY:  No, page 76, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see this text.

 6             MR. KAY:  Sorry, we've ... there we are.

 7        Q.   Can you see there?

 8             MR. KAY:  No.  We need the second interview up, sorry.  We're on

 9     the -- we switched ...

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. KAY:  E-court 190.  Well done.  That's it.  Sorry, it's

12     probably my confusion.  Yes, that's probably --

13             My learned friend, Mr. Mikulicic, suggests that the witness be

14     given a hard copy, Your Honour, which might facilitate his manoeuvring

15     through the documents.  I have had witnesses say to me it is often hard

16     to see on the screen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. KAY:  Might be a good aid, if the Court agreed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no objection against that, I would say.

20             We can avoid the -- any confusion by -- apart from looking at the

21     pages at the end, also to look at the previous number.  We have 4892,

22     which is the first part; 4893, which is the second part; and 4894, which

23     is the third part as far as numbering is concerned.  They have been

24     combined and uploaded in its entirety.  But if we would look not only at

25     the page number at the end but also whether it is preceded by a 2, a 3,

Page 25599

 1     or a 4, that would certainly already avoid further confusion.

 2             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But a hard copy would not be a bad idea, I would

 4     say.

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Mikulicic has come to the --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I take, it, Mr. Mikulicic that you provide a clean

 7     copy from what I see.  If there are any annotations in it, I would rather

 8     have a ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  Perhaps there are, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I don't know whether you are working from

12     the revised or unrevised version, but --

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  This is a revised version, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a revised version.  But if there is a clean

15     copy of the revised version anywhere, and if not, it may be created.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I do have a clean copy.

17     However, there is timings marked -- Timings vis-à-vis the video

18     recording.  So it's -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If that would not cause any problem -- [Overlapping

20     speakers] ...

21             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I -- I'm not worried about any marks that

22     there may be on it at all.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but, of course, if the Chamber is not aware of

24     what the witness has before him, then ...

25             Then you are invited to provide it to the witness,

Page 25600

 1     Ms. Mahindaratne, and take care that you have another copy for yourself.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much to my learned friend.

 3             We're on page 76 of 107, Madam Usher, which is the second

 4     interview, 4893.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   After that, does that help?

 8        A.   [Interpretation] Thanks so much.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... we're down at line 31.  And

10     as I said, you go to -- you say:

11             "Everybody a little but then nobody."

12             And it's about this issue of de facto control that Mr. Foster was

13     asking about that I'm now going to ask you a series of questions,

14     Mr. Moric.

15             Do you recollect the President visiting Knin as well as Gospic,

16     Karlovac, Split on the railway --

17        A.   [No interpretation]

18        Q.   -- in what was called the train of freedom?

19        A.   Yes, I remember that.

20        Q.   And that was an event that took place on the 26th of August.

21        A.   Excuse me?  Did you ask me whether it was on that date?

22        Q.   Yeah, do you recollect that it was on the 26th of August?

23        A.   I'm not certain about the exact date, but I do remember the

24     event.

25        Q.   And you were on a committee concerning OA, Operation Action,

Page 25601

 1     Knin 95, which was the title given for the security of that journey.

 2        A.   Yes, I was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  That particular issue concerned all the various

 4     parties concerned in security working together to provide security for

 5     the day to ensure that there was no trouble; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.  If there is a document relating to this,

 7     then we could see who were all the parties involved in it.

 8        Q.   We're going to go through a series of documents now, relating to

 9     this, and seeing the military police, military, and the civilian police,

10     who was making decisions, how, in effective, security was provided.

11             So the first document I want to look at is where this is planned.

12             MR. KAY:  At 65 ter 887, please.

13        Q.   Which is a record of a meeting held at the presidential palace on

14     20th of August, 1995.

15             MR. KAY:  And If we could just see the first page of that so

16     everyone knows what it is.

17        Q.   And we will be moving to page 30, which is where discussion of

18     the trip from Zagreb to Split on the railway line starts.

19             MR. KAY:  And the Court there can see part of the planning, that

20     there was to be a celebration, and what was behind this particular

21     journey.

22        Q.   And then on page 31 in the English.  In the Croatian, I am stuck;

23     I am sorry about that.  Page 31 in the English shows that there was a

24     discussion made -- launched by Mr. Mudrinic:

25             "We'll have to concern ourselves with security.  We will find a

Page 25602

 1     solution."

 2             And Mr. Susak says:

 3             "We'll take care of that.  Don't worry."

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, in think that we should have the relevant

 5     portion --

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE: -- available to the witness as well, because

 8     otherwise he cannot follow your reading.

 9             MR. KAY:  Yes, this is the one lengthy document I have,

10     Your Honour, and in the Croatian -- I don't know if a Croatian speaker

11     can help me.  I -- page 31 of the English, where Mr. Susak agrees he'll

12     take care of security.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, I do not think that this is the

14     right -- well ... no, this seems not to be the place.

15             MR. KAY:  Yes, sorry, Your Honour.

16             B/C/S, page 60.  Thank you.  Sorry, there is my fault for doing

17     with this.  But, Your Honour, I'm doing this because it's an important

18     issue, and I want to take the Court -- much has been made of this event,

19     and I want to take the Court through it so the Court is aware of

20     everything.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the witness --

22             MR. KAY:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at least, should be able to follow your reading.

24             MR. KAY:  Of course.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think we're now on the right page.  So --

Page 25603

 1             MR. Kay:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- therefore, let's proceed.

 3             MR. KAY:

 4        Q.   My apologies, Mr. Moric, it was only a few words we were looking

 5     for.  But they're there on the page, and we do that so that you can see

 6     them.

 7             Was there, thereafter, discussions between the

 8     Ministry of Interior and Ministry of Defence concerning the security

 9     planned for the security of the President's train.

10        A.   I do not remember exactly whether there was any discussion or

11     not.  But judging by the context and the way we worked until that point,

12     I suppose that there was such a discussion.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, there's more detail here about this

15     planning of this journey, which the Court my find important, because

16     great significance has been attached to -- to the -- the visit.  And I

17     ask that this transcript be -- be made an exhibit.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1849.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, this document is how long?

22             MR. KAY:  54 pages.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what is -- is it, in its entirety,

24     relevant, because otherwise we have another --

25             MR. KAY:  The passages that are relevant, unless Your Honours

Page 25604

 1     want to see how discussions take place.  You have seen concern

 2     transcripts, and if you want to see ordinary transcripts, there's ones

 3     like this.  But from pages 30 until the end is reference to the train and

 4     how it comes about and how it's planned and what the purpose of the visit

 5     is.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a major portion of the document, then,

 7     therefore.

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So under those circumstances, I would not insist on

10     making a further selection.  Although it is now clearly on the record

11     that it's mainly for pages 30 and the following pages.

12             MR. KAY:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you focused on.

14             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Under those circumstances, the D1849 is admitted

16     into evidence.

17             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

18             If we can turn, now, to 65 ter 5007.

19        Q.   This is a document dated the 23rd of August from the office of

20     the minister, signed by Mr. Jarnjak, going to the police administrations,

21     police department, and referring to the train of freedom on the

22     26th of August.  And saying, undertaking measures and activities

23     following under the jurisdiction of internal affairs, we are hereby

24     opening a joint security action of the Ministry of Interior and

25     Ministry of Defence with the code-name Knin 95.

Page 25605

 1             "MUP staff will be in charge of planning, implementing, and

 2     monitoring the implementation of the measures and activities that fall

 3     under the jurisdiction of internal affairs."

 4             And if we turn to page 2 in the English, we can see the decision.

 5     And page 2 in -- turning from Knin 95, page 2 in the Croatian, that a

 6     staff is set up that included yourself.

 7             Do you recollect that, Mr. Moric?

 8        A.   Yes, counsel, I remember that.

 9        Q.   And this was the operative action known as Knin 95 that then went

10     into various activities concerning the security that was to be provided;

11     is that right?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   We can just look at a parallel document.

14             MR. KAY:  If we go to --

15             May this document be made an exhibit, please, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1850.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D1850 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. KAY:  If we go to 2D18-1213.

22        Q.   This is a document dated the 22nd of August from the

23     Croatian army Main Staff.  And it concerns employment of forces for

24     Knin 95, with the purpose of timely and complete securing of the travel

25     of the President.  And there is an order listing the commands of

Page 25606

 1     Military Districts and various others who are involved.

 2             Page 2 in the English, page 2 in the Croatian, there was a

 3     requirement to coordinate and agree upon the occupation and securing of

 4     the railway line with military police units and Ministry of Interior

 5     forces.

 6             MR. KAY:  And if we just go through the rest of the document so

 7     that people can see what is contained within it.  The next page in

 8     English.

 9             Control and implementation of the order, coordination of duties.

10     And we see to whom this document is delivered to.

11        Q.   And is it right, Mr. Moric, that the civilian police and military

12     police did coordinate, in relation to the security matters on this

13     journey?

14        A.   Yes, counsel, they did coordinate.

15             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit,

16     please.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1851.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D1851 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

22             The next document is 2D00377.  And this is from the third aspect,

23     the military police administration, from Major-General Lausic, on Knin

24     95, dated 23rd of August.  In fact, to General Lausic from Major Juric of

25     the military police administration.  And it concerns various tasks and

Page 25607

 1     planning for Knin 95 and who was to take part.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Moric, presumably you would not have seen this document,

 3     but it is part of the strategic planning that you would have expected

 4     from the military police; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.  This is a military document drafted in the military police

 6     administration and, therefore, I haven't seen it.  It was not submitted

 7     to me.  But I understand, on the basis of our joint work, that this was

 8     prepared at the level of management of operative activities relating to

 9     this operation.

10             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit,

11     please.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1852.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D1852 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I have a whole series of documents, in a

17     chain, relating to this.  What I propose to do, with the Court's guidance

18     and consent, because they will not have been documents that Mr. Moric

19     will have seen, but just to take the Court through the numbers so that in

20     an economic use of Court time the issue that we're getting to concerning

21     de facto control and how this is relevant can be seen, as opposed to just

22     a simple question being asked by me but can be put into a documentary

23     context.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I -- so you're not seeking Mr. Moric's

25     comment on these documents?

Page 25608

 1             MR. KAY:  I will at the end, because I will put to him the

 2     various MUP documents, but there are documents from the other agencies,

 3     such as the military.  And the relevance of this, Your Honour, is that

 4     Mr. Cermak's not mentioned in any of them as having any role, and that's

 5     why this issue is being considered, as the Court might expect.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now, do you want Mr. Moric to read them or

 7     to go through them or just to bar table them?  It is not entirely clear

 8     what you have on your mind.  Because if you want to bar table them, then

 9     we expect a short description of relevance and then a joint filing with

10     the Prosecution.

11             Now, if you are seeking any comment or -- from Mr. Moric, then,

12     of course, he first would have had an opportunity to read them, which can

13     be done by providing him with hard copies and invite him to read them

14     over the break.  It's not entirely clear what -- what you intend to do.

15             If, at the end, your only question would be, Did you see on any

16     of these documents the name of Mr. Cermak, then I think we could do

17     without, because even the Chamber is able to see whether the name of

18     Mr. Cermak appears anywhere.  That -- I mean, the reading of the witness

19     is not any better than the reading of the Chamber and the reading of the

20     parties.

21             So it's not entirely clear how would you like to deal with that.

22             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, what I'm going to do is put the MUP

23     documents to the witness because they are things he knows about.  They

24     concern his subordinates.  But on the way, so that the Court has the full

25     context and to make my point, to be frank, I would -- I was going to

Page 25609

 1     refer to various documents which are on the list circulated by our

 2     Defence team so that the Court has the reference for them --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. KAY:  -- and then bar table them as Your Honour suggested.

 5     That was the route I was going take.  But I was going to put the sequence

 6     now so that any -- if Your Honour -- I think Your Honour may be better

 7     helped by me doing that here.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

 9             MR. KAY:  To follow --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, I'm looking at you.  Finally, what

11     Mr. Kay apparently will do is will put the MUP documents to the

12     witness -- not MUP documents; he will just refer to them and he will bar

13     table them, but already, in anticipation of the bar table submission,

14     already --

15             MR. KAY:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE: -- tell the Court about the existence of these

17     documents and what they approximately are about.

18             Any problem?

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I have no objection to that, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may proceed in the way suggested and

21     discuss --

22             MR. KEHOE:  Just by way of clarification, we will do the normal

23     spreadsheet for the bar table submission.

24             MR. KAY:  Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that' what I said.  The joint filing if it will

Page 25610

 1     finally be bar tabled.  But in anticipation to the bar table submission,

 2     Mr. Kay will already -- well, more or less briefly describe or announce

 3     them as being in assistance and to be bar tabled.

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 5             Your Honour, I do that because it's often difficult to follow

 6     this in the transcript and make the linkage.  And I hope it's helpful to

 7     the Court.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, we agreed already to do it.  So that you

 9     explained that it is worth doing it, that is implied.

10             MR. KAY:  Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour.

11             The next document dated the 23rd of August is exhibited already,

12     Exhibit D773, and concerns the engagement of forces for the Knin 95 task.

13             The next document is from the -- is 2D00498, which we will seek

14     to make an exhibit in the bar table, which is from the

15     Split Military District, Knin forward command post to the 72nd.  Again,

16     concerning Operation Knin.

17             The next one is 2D18-1197, dated the 24th of August, on Knin 95,

18     from the Operations Group West command, again concerning Knin 95 and the

19     various battalions and regiments -- brigades, regiments, to whom this is

20     copied, including those within paragraph 7 of the indictment.

21             And then the 24th of August, from the military police

22     administration, 2D00769.  Knin 95, sent to the Military District

23     companies and battalions, including the 72nd, with their tasks for what

24     they called Operation Goran as well.

25             The next one is 2D00298, dated the 24th of August, military

Page 25611

 1     police administration from Major Juric to General Lausic concerning

 2     preparations.

 3        Q.   And the next document is from the Kotar-Knin Police

 4     Administration, dated the 24th of August, which I would like you to see.

 5             MR. KAY:  2D18-1218.

 6        Q.   If you can look at this, Mr. Moric.  This is from a plan,

 7     security assessment, written by Mr. Sikirica, and approved by Mr. Mijic

 8     who was the commander of the Knin Police Station and concerns the

 9     security assessment being made by them in Knin for the visit of the

10     president.  You can see there what is written.

11             Page 2, technical details of the number of -- of policemen.

12             Page 3, again, the technical details.

13             And at the end of the document, you can see who it was signed by.

14             Just looking at this document, does this indicate, then, the role

15     within this operation, Knin 95, of, at the top level, as you, as an

16     assistant minister, having passed information and duties down the line,

17     seeing on the ground at the Knin Police Station, the preparations being

18     made there.  Is this the correct way by which the police was using its

19     authority?

20        A.   Before I answer, could I kindly ask to be allowed to see the

21     first page of the document again?

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. KAY:  If we can go back to page 1.

24        A.   Thank you very much.

25             Counsel, this document was drafted by the commander of the Knin

Page 25612

 1     Police Station.  He sent it to his own police administration in Knin.

 2     The duty to produce such documents per police station and police

 3     administration follows from the document issued by Minister Jarnjak,

 4     having established the Operation Knin 95 and having prescribed specific

 5     duties and tasks for the police stations and administrations.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. KAY:  May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1853.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

13             The next document is also a MUP document, 2D1812105.  1205,

14     sorry.  2D18-1205, dated the 25th of August, 1995, Zadar-Knin Police

15     Administration.

16        Q.   You can see, on the first page, the telegram and order and

17     security plan that this is based upon, and its implementation plan for

18     securing the train station area in Knin.

19             MR. KAY:  And if we go to the last page, because the details of

20     how that security was to be delivered to can be seen at the end.  It's

21     signed by Mr. Cetina.

22        Q.   Staff of Action Knin 95.  Would that have included you,

23     Mr. Moric?

24        A.   In keeping with the initial document from the minister announcing

25     the operation, and my answer is, yes, I was a member of the staff.

Page 25613

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             If we just go back to the first page to see what security was the

 3     certain of the police, the type of things.  Security evaluation, in

 4     paragraph 1:

 5             "After the military police Operation Storm, life in the town is

 6     gradually normalising, but from a security point of view the presence and

 7     activities of rebel Serbian paramilitary members are still noticed."

 8             Just as a statement there, concerning security, was that an issue

 9     that you were aware of at the time as being a security concern?

10        A.   Certainly.  We were aware of this.  If you are asking me

11     personally, I can tell you that I was definitely aware of certain

12     different types of risks in that area at that time.

13        Q.   If we look at the second paragraph, the town being visited by

14     various people, foreigners, refugees, inquisitive individuals, members of

15     intelligence services from foreign countries, government and

16     non-government organisations and bodies.

17             Just looking at that security evaluation, was that area of

18     security concern something you were aware of?

19        A.   Yes, I was, Counsel.  I was aware of those security concerns as

20     they had existed before that and in some other areas as well.

21        Q.   And point 3, the UNCRO base, a confluence of few hundred people

22     of Serbian origin, among them 62 persons sought in respect of suspicion

23     of committing crimes against Croatia; for example, humanity and

24     international law.

25             Is that something that you were aware of as being a security

Page 25614

 1     concern in Knin at the time?

 2        A.   Yes.  As you can see, by virtue of this official document, the

 3     regular police sector was advised of this.  Therefore, I was aware of it.

 4             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1854.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D1854 is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. KAY:

12        Q.   If we go to the next document I want to show you, 2D18-1221,

13     dated the 25th of August, Zadar-Knin Police Administration.  Again,

14     concerning the president's trip.

15             A security plan is outlined.  I just want us to look at this.

16     Security assessment, extremely complex political and security situation.

17     It refers, in paragraph (a), to paramilitary formations; (b), to mentally

18     incompetent persons or drug addicts.

19             If we go to the next page, outlines the operative measures, tasks

20     of police stations.

21             If we go to page 3, further operative tasks and who is

22     responsible for those tasks.

23             Down at the bottom --

24             MR. KAY:  If we can raise the pages.

25        Q.   -- operative technical department is referred to.

Page 25615

 1             MR. KAY:  Page 3 in the Croatian -- the next page in the

 2     Croatian, page 4, please, unless it's further down.

 3        Q.   Mr. Romanic is chief of the security.  On this page, we can see

 4     the other tasks.

 5             Paragraph 9, control.  Knin Police Station Chief Cedo Romanic in

 6     complete charge of security.

 7             Stipe Sikirica, assistant security chief.

 8             MR. KAY:  If we go to the last page.

 9        Q.   Zadar-Knin Police Administration and other police stations are to

10     whom this document is delivered signed by Mr. Bitanga, Cetina, and

11     Inspector Vickovic.

12             Again, this is on-the-ground police planning and issuing of

13     responsibility.  Is that right, Mr. Moric?

14        A.   It is.  In the previous example, we saw a document outlining the

15     plans of a single police station.  Here, we see a document outlining the

16     planning for an entire police administration.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  The next document which will be bar tabled,

19     Your Honour --

20             May that document be made an exhibit.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1855.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D1855 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. KAY:  The next document which will be bar tabled,

Page 25616

 1     Your Honour, is 2D00092, dated the 25th of August, 1995; military police

 2     administration, sent to General Lausic, and report on the tasks of the

 3     military police administration and units in Knin 95 and all their levels

 4     of engagement.  It refers to the companies and battalions, including the

 5     72nd, and describes what they were doing.

 6             The next document which will be bar tabled -- actually, no.  I'm

 7     going to call this one up.  D563, please.  Exhibit D563.  It's dated the

 8     25th of August, 1995.  It's from the head of security staff, General Cuk.

 9     And the Court will see, from the previous documents, he was in fact in

10     overall charge of this operation.  And the Court can see on the first

11     page the details of the implementation plan of the itinerary, where the

12     train is to stop, meetings that were held.

13             If we turn to page 2.  Chief of the Main Staff, referring to

14     coordination of the Ministry of Defence military police, and the regular

15     police force providing security.  We can see the details.

16             Page 3, military police administration and what their role is.

17             Page 4, Ministry of Defence and Security Information Service, and

18     the Ministry of Interior.

19        Q.   And we can see there the security staff formed, which included

20     you, Mr. Moric.

21             Can you see in that paragraph there the tasks that were to be

22     undertaken by the Ministry of Interior, the security to be provided.

23        A.   I see those tasks.  Those were regular, routine tasks of the

24     police in cases when our President or a foreign official travelled

25     throughout Croatia.

Page 25617

 1             MR. KAY:  If we go to the next page, page 5.

 2     Croatian Guards Corps.  The 4th Special Guards Battalion providing the

 3     personal protection for the President.  Other guards corps carrying out

 4     security.  We can see General Cuk named as head of the security staff.

 5     Travelling with the -- General Lausic.  And at the bottom of the page:

 6             "All Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Interior units in their

 7     areas of responsibility will be subordinated to the security staff for

 8     the duration of Knin 95."

 9             And then we can see on the last page to whom this was delivered,

10     including Mr. Jarnjak.

11        Q.   And is that how this situation was implemented, with all the

12     different areas of security concerns operating within their own

13     jurisdictions?  The military police, civilian police, the security

14     services, all operating according to their own lines?

15        A.   Of course.  That's how it was supposed to be.  That is why each

16     ministry, within its own remit, coordinated its own organisational units

17     in the field.

18             This document speaks about mutual coordination and cooperation at

19     the level of the various services and ministries.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. KAY:  The next document is 2D18-1216.  I'm trying to finish

22     this topic, Your Honour, before the break, with the Court's leave.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

24             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

25        Q.   This is a document dated the 26th of August, Kotar-Knin Police

Page 25618

 1     Administration, sent to the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, concerning

 2     the security evaluation on that day regarding the travel of the

 3     President.

 4             We see the security evaluation.

 5        Q.   Can you just look at that, please?  It says:

 6             "The state of security in the area of Kotar-Knin Police

 7     Administration is very complex due to the recent liberation of

 8     the ... area from many years of occupation."

 9             And it refers to military formations retreating to the woods and

10     that it was necessary to additionally secure location and properties in

11     the liberated areas, and, therefore, there is the security plan.

12             Is that state of security as outlined there something that you

13     would have agreed with at the time, Mr. Moric?

14        A.   Yes, I did agree at the time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And page 2, we can see that this is from Mr. Romanic.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I ask that this be made an exhibit,

17     please.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1856.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, the last document I'm referring to here to

23     be bar tabled is 2D00395, dated 30th of August from the military police

24     administration.  It was the final breakdown and report on the military

25     police during Knin 95.  Goes into their details there.  And in accordance

Page 25619

 1     with all the other military police documents and the other documents

 2     referred to, none of them refer to General Cermak at all.

 3        Q.   One question then remains, Mr. Moric.  In relation to your

 4     answer, when you were asked who was in control, "it would be everybody

 5     and nobody."

 6             What did you mean by that?

 7        A.   Counsel, the question was not specific, so I understood that it

 8     had to do with an attempt to establish who was, generally speaking, in

 9     charge principally.  However, at the time, considering the legal system,

10     but also, in fact, there was no such position.  There were several

11     persons who were the principal ones in charge but each of them in his own

12     area.  For instance, if the question was who was the main man in charge

13     in terms of the police or civilian authorities or so on, then I could

14     have provided a specific answer to such a specific question.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, it's time for the break now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Kay, I would like to inform

21     the parties that, as they are aware that two of the Judges in this case

22     are sitting in another case as well, which has slowly resumed.  And

23     although we still have to consider how we will do that at the long-term,

24     but, earlier, we took off one day from the Gotovina case, and, in turn,

25     were sitting two days on the other case.

Page 25620

 1             Now, since there's a lot of work to be done in the weeks to come,

 2     the Chamber has decided that, for next week, that we would give up our

 3     session on the 11th of December, Friday, which would better fit in the

 4     programme of the Judges who are sitting on two cases, who would have,

 5     otherwise, seven sessions, and now we reduce that to six.

 6             And we do understand that this meets another concern of one of

 7     the parties as well, which is -- I take it as a side effect, appreciated

 8     as being very welcome.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it is, Mr. President.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Then, Mr. Kay, are you ready to proceed?

12             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Can we go back to your interview, please, Mr. Moric,

14     Exhibit D1842, and turn to e-court page 191, page 77 of 4893.

15             And reflecting your last answer, Mr. Moric, in fact, Mr. Foster's

16     question:

17             "Who was the highest authority there, in your opinion?"

18             Just looking at that as a question, as it took up a lot of your

19     interview on -- on this issue, in your role as chief of the fundamental

20     police, receiving reports daily from the liberated area, was this

21     approach by Mr. Foster an accurate approach, trying to define someone as

22     being the highest authority?

23        A.   Mr. Counsel, I suppose that, by questions of this kind,

24     Mr. Foster wanted to elicit a specific answer the way he envisaged it,

25     but, unfortunately, unfortunately for him, matters stood differently, and

Page 25621

 1     he could not get such an answer because such an answer would not have

 2     reflected the actual situation.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move a little bit further down the page

 4     to line 16.

 5             MR. KAY:  And I would like the Court to pay attention to the

 6     English at line 19 as, just looking at it, I can see a problem in the

 7     interpretation there, because I notice, from my limited knowledge,

 8     something.

 9        Q.   If you could just read out slowly what you said at line 16,

10     please, Mr. Moric, "Recimo ..."  if you read out that sentence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Aloud, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "For instance, I'm talking

13     sincerely, it was never in any way clear to me the role that

14     General Cermak had."

15             That's what's recorded there.

16             MR. KAY:

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it seems that the "nije," which appears

19     twice ...

20             MR. KAY:  I won't go any further than that, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this is how it was translated at the time.  So

22     there is no need at this moment to revise the transcript, because it

23     would obscure that the words were wrongly translated at the time.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. KAY:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 25622

 1        Q.   And you state, at line 23 in English, 21 the Croatian, was he

 2     military commander or was he a civilian administrator.

 3             25 Croatian, 28 English:

 4             In some cases, you could see that he is dealing with civilian

 5     matters and in some cases you could see that has military authority.

 6             MR. KAY:  If we turn over the page.

 7        Q.   "And I personally don't know how his role was legally defined."

 8             If I can ask you a question here.  You knew General Cermak was a

 9     General; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, that was a generally known fact.  So I knew it from the

11     general context.

12        Q.   Did you know to what position he was appointed in the military?

13        A.   No, I didn't know what his position within the military structure

14     was, apart from the fact that I was aware that he was a general.

15        Q.   And did you know when he was appointed to a position involving

16     Knin?

17        A.   No one officially informed me about the appointment of

18     General Cermak.  I learned that from the media.  And if I remember well,

19     I think it was certainly in the first half of the month of August, to my

20     best recollection.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And did you know if he had any military role before

22     being appointed to any position he had in Knin?  Did you know what he was

23     doing before?

24        A.   Excuse me, Counsel, if I understand properly, you wish to ask me

25     whether I knew what Mr. Cermak was doing before his appointment in the

Page 25623

 1     military, in the Croatian army?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   The answer to your question is:  I didn't know, nor did I notice

 4     that he had any role in the Croatian army before he was appointed to his

 5     post in Knin.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Staying, then, on page 78, Mr. Foster asked you what

 7     sort of matters you were aware that he was dealing with; line 4, English,

 8     line 7 Croatian.

 9             And at line 10 in Croatian and line 17, line 17, you refer to

10     meetings "with my colleagues ... he was very concerned about the security

11     condition in that area ... he insisted ... things are solved, he was

12     concerned with ... improving general security conditions of the

13     area ... also, he dealt with some purely economy matters, like trying to

14     gather the cattle ... purely economical, economy matters, and on the

15     other side, he was a general."

16             If we can just look at that there.  Did any of your subordinates

17     report back to you that they had attended meetings held by Mr. Cermak?

18        A.   I do not remember written reports, but I do remember that some of

19     my associates proposed to me that it would be good if police

20     representatives were present at the meetings held by Mr. Cermak with

21     representatives of various international organisations, so that, on the

22     basis of the presence at the meetings, we would be aware of the context,

23     what the subject of discussion was, and what, on the basis of exchange of

24     various information between Mr. Cermak and the representatives of

25     international organisations, the police could possibly do in order to

Page 25624

 1     improve the security situation.

 2        Q.   From what you knew, did Mr. Cermak have any role in relation to

 3     the workings of the police, how they operated, what they did?  Did he

 4     have any control over the local police?

 5        A.   I'm sorry, Counsel, when you use the word "local," do you mean

 6     civilian police?

 7        Q.   Yes, sorry, that's my mistake.  I mean the Kotar-Knin Police

 8     Station, Knin Police Station.

 9        A.   No.  Mr. Cermak formally, legally, or in fact, was not within the

10     subordination and organised police structure; or, more specifically, he

11     could not affect the work of civilian police either in the formal legal

12     sense or in fact.

13        Q.   How many times in August did you have meetings with your police

14     officers who were working down in the Knin area?

15        A.   Do you mean how many times did I personally meet the police

16     management in the area of Knin?

17        Q.   Yes, be it Mr. Romanic, Mr. Djurica, Mr. Cetina, Mr. Cipci,

18     Mr. Mihic.  How many times did you meet the policeman on the ground, who

19     were on the ground, in the Knin area?

20        A.   Unfortunately, I do not remember how many times I met with them;

21     but I was in daily contact with them, and we communicated in various

22     ways.

23        Q.   And what form of daily contact was there?  What do you mean?

24     What form of communication did you have with them?

25        A.   I communicated with them by using secure phone lines which are

Page 25625

 1     typical for the police telecommunications infrastructure, as well as

 2     through an exchange of letters, through data-protected cryptograms, and

 3     in other ways.

 4        Q.   And did you have face-to-face meetings as well?  And I'm talking

 5     here about August, September, the first two months.

 6        A.   I do not remember whether I had any such meetings or not, but it

 7     is more probable that I did than that I didn't.

 8        Q.   Just taking August, how many times did you visit Knin?

 9        A.   I'm certain that I went there once, but it doesn't mean that I

10     didn't go some more times.  But it's certain that I went there once.

11        Q.   And can you remember the occasion when you went there now?  Can

12     you remember what occasion that was?

13        A.   If I remember properly, I went there when the police station in

14     Knin was opened, that is to say, returned to us, and when the staff were

15     introduced to this work.  And then, on the following day, if I'm not

16     mistaken, the President visited Knin, and so, at the same time, I used my

17     stay in the area to coordinate the duties relating to the Knin 95 action

18     that we discussed quite a lot today.

19        Q.   During your time dealing with your subordinates - August,

20     September - did you have any reports that they had to defer to

21     General Cermak on matters of law and order or security?

22        A.   Excuse me, Counsel.  Did I properly understand that your question

23     is whether I received any reports from my associates in which they

24     informed me that they had to - and I emphasise "had to" - contact

25     Mr. Cermak relating to the security situation?

Page 25626

 1             Was that your question?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   No, could I not receive any such reports because the people from

 4     the police couldn't have had such an obligation, so it is excluded that

 5     they -- as a possibility, that they had to report to General Cermak.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, perhaps --

 7             Witness, you're saying what should or could not be the case.

 8     What Mr. Kay asked is whether, as a fact, you did receive any such thing.

 9     Whether it was illegal, whether in accordance with the rules, whether it

10     was not in accordance with the rules.

11             So the first question is whether you did receive any reports of

12     the kind described by Mr. Kay; and then if you want to explain why it is

13     very logical that you didn't receive them, fine.  But we should not mix

14     up the two things.

15             I do understand from your explanation also that did you not

16     actually receive any such reports as described by Mr. Kay.

17             Is that correct?

18             Mr. Kay, could you, in your questions, if you receive such an

19     answer, could you always clearly verify whether the witness has answered

20     your question in a factual sense or in a rather normative sense.

21             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  There was a problem, I'm told, as

22     well.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, there is obviously a problem with

24     the translation.  I'm referring to the page 38 and line 20 to 22 where

25     Mr. Moric was talking about the obligation.  And he -- he said something

Page 25627

 1     else that is written in the transcript where --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we are going to verify whether he said

 3     anything else.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

 5             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. KAY:  It's a very important matter as well in its --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  What -- as usual, what we are seeking to verify his

 9     answer, what we could do, Mr. Kay, is to read the answer as it was

10     translated to us; then it will be translated back to the witness.  And

11     then ask him whether that is it what he said, or what he intended to say.

12             I leave it your hands.

13             MR. KAY:  Yes.

14        Q.   Mr. Moric, can I just go back a little bit.

15             You asked me whether you understood my question about whether

16     Mr. Cermak received any reports from your associates, "in which they

17     informed me that they had to - and I emphasise "had to" - contact

18     Mr. Cermak relating to the security situation."

19             And I said:

20             "That was my question."

21             Perhaps if you could repeat your answer to that again.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now, Mr. Kay, there is one other thing that

23     bothers me a bit:  You said "in which they informed me."  I don't take it

24     that you are referring to any reports, in which you were informed about

25     anything.  No.  But that's how you -- how it appears on the transcript

Page 25628

 1     and that's how you read it just a second ago.

 2             Could you please --

 3             MR. KAY:  We're getting very confused here.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh -- no, let me see -- yes.

 5             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... what I'm doing, sir, is I

 6     intend to --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  It is my -- I made a mistake.

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 9             MR. ORIE:  I'm sorry.  Yes, you were rephrasing -- you were

10     repeating the question put to you by Mr. Moric --

11             MR. KAY:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on his understanding, and in that context "me"

13     is, Mr. Moric.

14             MR. KAY:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I made a mistake.  I apologise for that,

16     because the last thing I want to do is to add to the confusion.

17             Could you please resume.

18             MR. KAY:

19        Q.   I will repeat the question, Mr. Moric, because we've had an issue

20     here.

21             Did any of your subordinates report to you that they had to defer

22     to Mr. Cermak's authority?

23        A.   No.  No one reported to me about that.

24        Q.   And I don't mean that in a de jure sense but as a matter of fact,

25     that they, in fact, had to report to Mr. Cermak in any way.

Page 25629

 1        A.   This is how I understood your question, Counsel.  They did not

 2     report to me that they had to defer to General Cermak in any way

 3     whatsoever.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. KAY:  And I hope, Your Honour, that clears up the ambiguity

 6     at page 38, line 21, for the record.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. KAY:

 9        Q.   You mentioned Mr. -- or one of your colleagues requesting to

10     attend meetings.

11             MR. KAY:  Can we look at Exhibit D589, please.

12        Q.   You mention meetings that Mr. Cermak went to with the

13     internationals, Mr. Moric.  We're looking at a document dated the

14     28th of August, 1995.  It's from the Zadar-Knin Police Administration to

15     you.  It's from Mr. Tomurad, the coordinator who took over the role of

16     Mr. Djurica.  We can see that it concerns persons in military uniforms on

17     the first page.

18             If we look at page 2, it concerns:

19             "I also deem it necessary to achieve an agreement according to

20     which the chief of the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, or the

21     Knin ... police administration ... may be present at the

22     meetings ... General Cermak holds with ... UNCRO, UNCIVPOL, and other

23     international organisations in Knin so as to ensure that the police are

24     informed about all agreements and conclusions reached, which will enable

25     them to organise and plan tasks and duties from their purview

Page 25630

 1     accordingly."

 2             Signed by Mr. Tomurad.

 3             Was that what you were thinking of when you referred to the fact

 4     some time ago that one of your colleagues had said that they would like

 5     to attend the meetings with the internationals?

 6        A.   Exactly.  I had in mind this document, in which it is proposed

 7     that an agreement about this should be reached.

 8        Q.   And as you read Mr. Tomurad's suggestion here, the purpose of why

 9     he was wanting this, are you able to explain?

10        A.   I think that the purpose of his proposal is set out here in his

11     explanation; namely, he proposed that a rule should be established, that,

12     from these levels of police responsibility, certain representatives

13     should be present at the meetings which General Cermak held with the

14     representatives of the international peacekeeping mission, including

15     their civilian police and other international institutions, so that the

16     police would be informed about the agreements reached and could organise

17     and plan the duties from within its pursue in accordance with them.

18             In other words, such meetings were held without any police

19     representatives being present so that it could not be known at the local

20     level what was the context of the agreements reached with the

21     representatives of international organisations.

22        Q.   And does this statement here indicate to you that the police were

23     in charge of organising their own work and planning their own tasks and

24     duties, when Mr. Tomurad wrote:

25             "... which will enable them to organise and plan tasks and duties

Page 25631

 1     from their purview accordingly."?

 2        A.   This has to do with any potential tasks and duties from the

 3     police purview which may come out of certain proposals to be put forward

 4     by representatives of international organisations at their meetings with

 5     Mr. Cermak, such as to provide security along the routes of movement for

 6     them, as well as other types of security assistance and assistance in

 7     general to their work.

 8             This was supposed to be in keeping with the previously arranged

 9     set-up between the Government of the Republic of Croatia and those in

10     charge of the international mission.

11        Q.   Again, going to another issue concerning the local fundamental

12     police, the police on the ground in Knin, did any of them report to you

13     that Mr. Cermak was telling them not to investigate crimes?

14        A.   No one reported to me about that.

15        Q.   Did any of them say Mr. Cermak was telling them to allow crimes

16     to happen, to ensure the Serbs didn't get to the -- remain in the region?

17        A.   No.  No one of told me that.

18        Q.   I'm just going on through the interview.

19             MR. KAY:  Page 78, which is e-court 192 of Exhibit D1482 [sic].

20     Page 78 of 4893.

21        Q.   Line 25 of the English, line 31 of the Croatian, Mr. Foster says

22     what he was told by his -- by the coordinators and your chief of police

23     administration that there were daily meetings called by General Cermak to

24     which one of them or sometimes both or all of them had to attend and

25     report to General Cermak which seems strange, the civilian police would

Page 25632

 1     be reporting to a military general.

 2             MR. KAY:  And page 5 of the next page, which we're on, page --

 3     line 13 -- sorry, line 5 of the next page, which we're on.  Line 13 in

 4     the English.

 5        Q.   "Yes, but they were never obliged to do that.  They would

 6     never ... he wasn't their boss ... he could not give them orders ... so

 7     to come to meetings and to give them reports, I believe they did so

 8     because they were at the same time [sic] at the same time and they were

 9     trying to achieve something, but legally, you know, they could have told

10     him, We don't care if you want us at that meeting; we are not coming."

11             Were you aware, through any information you had at the time, that

12     your officers on the ground attended daily meetings Mr. Cermak held in

13     Knin?  Were you aware of that at the time?

14        A.   I had information that Mr. Cermak was holding meetings, although

15     the information did not indicate that it was a daily occurrence.  I still

16     believe it did not take place on a daily basis.  The answer I gave at

17     that time to the investigators reflects my opinion about those meetings

18     as they took place.

19        Q.   Was there any information you had that anything about such

20     meetings were negative for law and order?

21        A.   No, I did not have any such information.  And the information I

22     had was not regular in nature about the meetings themselves.  I only knew

23     that they took place, although I didn't know how frequently.  From the

24     point of view of my management of -- over the police, it was unimportant.

25     That is why I never asked for any reports from those meetings and never

Page 25633

 1     received any.

 2        Q.   If we just continue through the interview, line 28, Mr. Foster

 3     gives his understanding.

 4             If we go to page 80, line 1, that's interpreted to you.  And we

 5     see your answer at line 6 in the Croatian, line 13 in the English.  I

 6     won't repeat that, then, as we've dealt with that.  The remaining

 7     passages of the interview there.

 8             I want to now move to page 84 and page 89, e-court 198.

 9             MR. KAY:  Down at the bottom, please.  Line 30 in the English.

10        Q.   And we see Mr. Foster referring to:

11             "... your coordinators would report to your senior coordinators

12     that uniformed people were committing crimes, serious crimes in the

13     region.  What was done about it or what could be done about it at the

14     level of Mr. Franjo, Tomurad, or yourself?"

15             MR. KAY:  If we turn to the next page, please, e-court 199.

16        Q.   And we see there that it's translated to you.

17             Line 14 about -- you reply about the professional policemen, in

18     the English, line 10 in the Croatian.

19             And then line 19 in the Croatian, line 23 in the English:

20             "And we decided to do things that could be done immediately,

21     which are on the local level ask for the activity of the military police

22     and on a [sic] different level for me to act."

23             Is that correct, then, that you did receive reports of crimes

24     happening in the liberated areas and you took steps to try and stop those

25     crimes?

Page 25634

 1        A.   It is correct, Counsel.  I received reports about crimes taking

 2     place, the perpetrators of which, were people in uniforms, military

 3     uniforms.  But, as we were able to glean from the documents we used

 4     yesterday, unfortunately, some of them also wore police uniforms.  It is

 5     true that, based on those documents - that is, reports - I did everything

 6     possible up to trying to come up with solutions which may cause conflict

 7     of authority, or overlaps of authority.  All that in order to prevent

 8     that, or to stop it.

 9        Q.   The reports that you were getting, if you could, perhaps, explain

10     how the system worked from down on the ground in, say, the Knin area,

11     with the Zadar-Knin Police Administration, Kotar-Knin Police

12     Administration, how did the information get to you at the ministry of

13     what was happening?

14        A.   The information arrived following the principle of internal

15     organisation and subordination, i.e., via mutually prescribed

16     responsibilities.  For example, the police station in Knin reported on

17     all relevant events from their own remit, in particular, in the field of

18     security, to their police administration of Knin-Kotar.  The police

19     administration of Knin-Kotar sent reports to the ministry.

20             If we used the example of my responsibility, in the sense of

21     managing the work of the basic-duty police, the reports from the police

22     administration of Knin-Kotar were addressed to either one of the

23     departments within the police sector or to the sector itself and its

24     head, Mr. Franjo, or to me personally.

25             In the police reporting methodology, an addressee is chosen,

Page 25635

 1     depending on the assessment of the person sending the report and to which

 2     level that report should be sent to, depending on the significance and

 3     the scope of the problem that is being reported.  That does not mean,

 4     though, that if there is something wrong about the way something was

 5     reported, corrections could not be made.  Additions to the report may be

 6     sought or a change in the address list.

 7        Q.   Did you act only on police reports, or did you act also from any

 8     information that the minister may pass to you?

 9        A.   Operational management of the police is always based on the

10     information of security trends or developments in a certain area.  For me

11     in order to manage the most relevant information was that received from

12     the field.  Of course, in the daily work of the minister of the interior,

13     he may have a need to hear of certain reports to exchange positions or

14     share information with his assistant, which was myself.

15        Q.   Did you have information passed on to you by the minister, from

16     what he knew, that crimes were occurring in the liberated territories?

17        A.   Factually speaking, as the situation was at the time, I don't

18     know how it could have been that the minister would be better informed

19     than I was.  I don't recall any such instances.  It is also customary

20     that, at the level of the ministers and their collegiums, no specific

21     issues are discussed.  Only security trends.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. KAY:  Can we look at a document now, Exhibit D46, please.

24        Q.   And this is a document sent by you, Mr. Moric, to the chief of

25     military police, Major-General Lausic, on the 10th of August, 1995.  It

Page 25636

 1     is a letter.  And it states:

 2             "According to reports from the field ..."  and you mention

 3     Lika-Senj, Zadar-Knin, Vojnic, Vrginmost.  "Cases are being noted of

 4     individual Croatian army members on liberated territory

 5     stealing ... burning ... killing cattle ..."

 6             You mention lack of cooperation.  And you state:

 7             "While understanding the size and nature of the tasks that you

 8     have to contend with, we kindly ask you to take measures to eliminate

 9     these things."

10             From the information you received about what was happening in the

11     field, was this an appropriate method of dealing with the problem that

12     had been reported to you?

13        A.   Yes.  If I had received a report on similar issues, it would have

14     been only logical for me to report this to the relevant address, where

15     those who were supposed to deal with that problem were.  In this

16     instance, that relevant address was the MP administration and its chief.

17        Q.   This letter is dated the 10th of August.  Did you also discuss

18     this matter face-to-face at a meeting with General Lausic at this time?

19        A.   I don't recall having a meeting with him about this information.

20     However, we did meet frequently, and we had daily communication.  In our

21     daily contacts, the chief of the MP administration and I discussed these

22     or similar matters which were indicative of the trends and of the

23     direction in which events could take place.

24        Q.   Did he give any explanation to you as to how he was dealing with

25     these matters?

Page 25637

 1        A.   Certainly.  He provided explanations.  In principle, he was a

 2     dedicated person, like myself, decisive in his intention to put a stop to

 3     such similar events.

 4             In the context of our cooperation, we never experienced a

 5     conflict in the sense that we would reject each other's invitation for

 6     cooperation within our purviews.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:  If we could look, now, at Exhibit D48.

 9        Q.   This is a further document written by you, Mr. Moric, to

10     General Lausic.  And it concerns the reports that you had been receiving

11     from your police stations and police administrations; of houses being

12     burnt; people's property stolen.

13             And in this letter, it states:

14             "The perpetrators of these acts, in most cases, are persons

15     wearing Croatian Army uniforms.  Our information points to these persons

16     who are formally and in effect members of the Croatian Army, but that

17     there are also persons who are not members of the Croatian Army ...

18     abusing the ... uniform."

19             And you conclude that the joint work of the civilian and military

20     police has not produced results.  And you ask that another agreement on a

21     new method of joint work in order to eliminate these problems be made.

22             In relation to this letter that you wrote to General Lausic, what

23     steps were then taken as a new method of joint work, to eliminate

24     problems?

25        A.   As in the previous cases when I warned about the existence of

Page 25638

 1     that problem, I believe my learned friend, Mr. Lausic, reacted by having

 2     ordered the units of the military police to step up coordination and

 3     cooperation with the civilian police.  Based on the previous practice and

 4     having learned from our previous experiences that the military police had

 5     difficulty following the pace of the civilian police, because they were

 6     not as well educated and as efficiently organised, as well as being short

 7     of staff and not as mobile, I can refer you to my document of the

 8     18th of August, which we saw yesterday, in which, in one of its

 9     paragraphs, inter alia, I am trying to resolve the situation by actually

10     asking of the police force to undertake some of the jobs of the military

11     police, thus risking a conflict of authority.

12             The intention was to compensate for the shortcomings in our

13     cooperation with the military police.

14        Q.   At this stage, by the 17th of August, 1995, did you have actual

15     data that you could rely upon for the conclusions as to the identities of

16     perpetrators?  Did you have a way of collecting and storing information

17     of identities of perpetrators at this time?

18        A.   Mr. Counsel, I believe that I received reports and that we have

19     already seen that from the documents, and here I refer, in this document,

20     to reports from police stations and administrations, because that was the

21     chain of reporting.  And it is mentioned in these reports who the

22     perpetrators of crimes were but not by name; rather, by category.

23     Personally I had no reason not to trust these reports from police

24     stations and administrations; and, unfortunately, the later developments

25     confirmed that the reports, which mention the categories of perpetrators,

Page 25639

 1     were correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. KAY:  Just for the Court's purposes, the document we looked

 4     at -- the witness referred to is Exhibit D49 that he referred to as the

 5     document yesterday.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please proceed.

 7             MR. KAY:

 8        Q.   I won't look at that document now, as you looked at it yesterday,

 9     Mr. Moric.  I will turn to another document, Exhibit D588.

10             This is another document issued by you, Mr. Moric, to the heads

11     of your police administrations dated the 22nd of August.  And it refers

12     to:

13             "After liberation of a large territory ... the return of military

14     units to barracks ... and after partial demobilisation of conscripts,

15     concern quantities of weapons," referring to ammunition, mine,

16     explosives, "were brought to the previously free territory of the

17     country."

18             And you assess the quantity of this material will be larger after

19     complete demobilisation of the planned number of consequences.  They

20     could be used in breaching the peace and endangering safety, used for

21     attacks.  And you refer your police administrations to carry out tasks

22     ordered in July of 1993.

23             First of all, could you -- are you able to remember what those

24     tasks were which you refer to in this document?

25        A.   Unfortunately, I do not remember.  But just trying to draw a

Page 25640

 1     logical conclusion, I could say that these were probably tasks relating

 2     to the police paying attention in its daily work on places where public

 3     rallies were being held, when celebrations were made, and where it could

 4     be particularly dangerous if weapons or mines or explosives brought from

 5     the areas covered by Operation Storm were used.  But I'm not certain that

 6     this is what it's all about.

 7        Q.   This is now just over two weeks after the liberation of the

 8     previously occupied territories.  What problems were you facing at this

 9     time regarding crimes that were being committed?

10             Let me make that a less general question.  Were you able to see

11     or understand what was causing crimes, who was causing crimes at this

12     time?

13        A.   The crime police was in charge of processing crimes, and, as you

14     know, in every specific case, it is only the criminal investigation that

15     might shed light on the motives.  So it's difficult for me to answer

16     specifically to your question.  But from the point of view of my remit,

17     that is to say, managing the work of regular police, the data I found to

18     be relevant was that these kinds of crimes were being committed, that the

19     perpetrators belonged to the categories as noted in the earlier document,

20     and it was important for me to monitor the trends, whether there was an

21     increase or a decrease, in the number of such crimes.

22             But, generally speaking, it is well known that, in principle, the

23     crimes relating to property are caused by a will to gain something

24     illegally.

25        Q.   Were you ever in receipt of data that enabled you to conclude

Page 25641

 1     that this was organised, that the crime was being organised to take

 2     place?

 3        A.   No.  There was no intelligence that would indicate that any of

 4     these crimes were committed in an organised way.  And criminal

 5     investigations would have helped to establish such an information.

 6             On the other hand, in these days, as we could see yesterday, I

 7     was briefed, as was only natural by our secret services as well, and if

 8     the criminal investigations did not indicate something of the kind, then

 9     I believe that secret services would have indicated to me that there was

10     some sort of organisation that directed crimes being committed on the

11     liberated territories.

12             However, more important than that was to see, as we call it, the

13     modus operandi, that is to say, the way in which these crimes were

14     committed, whether these were just individual acts of persons who

15     committed those crimes, or possibly whether these were groups of two or

16     several people but not any sort of organisation.

17        Q.   Mr. Foster was asking you questions in your interview about

18     people higher up in authority planning it.  Did you have any information

19     or any indication at the time that people in positions of authority had

20     planned that these crimes took place?

21        A.   That is correct.  Mr. Foster, while discussing several subjects,

22     suggested the possible answer, but the facts are relevant.

23             No, I am not aware that anyone would ever have considered

24     organising such unlawful acts, nor did I ever feel an atmosphere that

25     lead me to conclude that possibly, at high state levels, there was

Page 25642

 1     indifference to these developments.  Quite the contrary.

 2             There was no indifference.  But at the level of the ministers of

 3     the interior, the defence, and justice with whom I was in occasional

 4     contact at the time, I could see that they were worried because of such

 5     developments and that they wished that this be changed.

 6             And by the logic of the duty that I was discharging, I

 7     particularly felt personal pressure because, considering my remit of duty

 8     within the legal system and considering the previous logic, the

 9     expectations were greater, in terms of the regular police, in terms of

10     preventing the commission of such crimes.

11             So, in brief, I was exposed to enormous pressure.

12        Q.   Let us now look at Exhibit D592.

13             This is a document written by you, Mr. Moric, on the

14     6th of September, 1995, for the attention of Mr. Lausic.  And it encloses

15     two Official Notes in connection with activities which should be of

16     concern to us both.  You ask for measures to be taken and to be informed

17     about them.

18             MR. KAY:  If we then turn to the next page.

19        Q.   They are notes derived from Knin -- Kotar-Knin Police

20     Administration.  In fact, they were Official Notes signed by the

21     Deputy Chief, Mr. Gambiroza.  They concern specific instances involving

22     soldiers and what happened, and what they were doing is explained in the

23     note.  I have no need to go into that.

24             MR. KAY:  If we can turn to the next page, please, in the

25     English, and -- thank you.

Page 25643

 1        Q.   The Official Note, the second one, again, from Mr. Gambiroza at

 2     Knin Police Administration, concerning, again, matters that he had seen

 3     concerning Croatian army soldiers, what was happening, who it was.

 4             MR. KAY:  If we turn the next page in the English.

 5        Q.   This matter was reported to the 72nd Battalion, and why the note

 6     was submitted.

 7             Having seen this document, Mr. Moric, first of all, do you

 8     recollect it as a document?

 9        A.   I am not sure which of the three have you in mind, or do have you

10     in mind all three documents?

11        Q.   All three.  Do you recollect this instance of Mr. Gambiroza

12     sending you these Official Notes and then you sending them to Mr. Lausic?

13        A.   Frankly, I do not remember how these reports were sent and

14     forwarded and how they reached me.  But from my letter to the chief of

15     the military police administration, it is clear that the reports did

16     reach me, because I'm saying in the letter that I'm submitting them to

17     him, and I'm asking him to try to resolve this together.  But I believe

18     that if we have a look at the text of my letter --

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... back to the beginning,

20     page 1.

21        A.   Yes.  In the second paragraph, I asked for measures to be taken

22     to prevent such occurrences.  So not just that we should try to resolve

23     these two specific cases, but that measures be taken to prevent such

24     occurrences; therefore, that this trend should be stopped.

25        Q.   This comes from Knin Police Administration.  Was this a -- a

Page 25644

 1     usual or unusual way of you receiving information?

 2        A.   I believe that this was submitted in accordance with the

 3     reporting principle which I explained in my answer to one of your

 4     previous questions.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that's probably a convenient moment.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It is, Mr. Kay.

 8             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at a quarter to 1.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, please proceed.

12             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Just following on to a different area now.

14             MR. KAY:  If we go back to Exhibit D1842, please.  And if we turn

15     to page 199, which is where we were, and then turn to the next page,

16     page -- e-court, 200, 86 of 107 of 4893.

17        Q.   We see on this page at line 5 in the English, line 1 in the

18     Croatian language, your reference to being in daily contact with

19     General Lausic.  You refer to the Plitvice meeting.  We have looked at

20     that issue.

21             MR. KAY:  If we could turn to the next page, please, 201.  Dealt

22     with military police issues.

23             Turn to page 202.  Page 203 in e-court, please.

24        Q.   And this is the next subject, Mr. Moric, I want to turn to in

25     your interview, so moving away from General Lausic and the military

Page 25645

 1     police.  And it's when you're asked for why the problem went on for as

 2     long as it did.

 3             Mr. Foster mentions two military generals in the region.  And

 4     you, at line 23 in the Croatian, line 25 say:

 5             "There is rather a simple answer.  Can I go back to the map?"

 6             And if we turn to page 204 of your interview, we can see that you

 7     start describing the -- the particular area.

 8             Mr. Moric, why this crime could not be controlled is something

 9     you were asked in this interview.  I'm going to ask you again, as to

10     reasons you may have or be able to give, as to why this crime could not

11     controlled.

12        A.   Firstly, in the answer to your question, I should start from the

13     general context relating to the area.  It is well known that, after

14     military operations, war military operations, there is always a certain

15     period of confusion until all the mechanisms of authority are

16     consolidated.

17             Next, the size and the geopolitical position of the area in which

18     Operation Storm took place also had a significant role.  If I remember

19     properly, I think it's 11.000 square kilometres of space, behind which

20     there is about 400 kilometres of the state border with Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     and including areas in which, on the other side of the border, were

22     territories under the control of Republika Srpska.  So 11.000 square

23     kilometres is a vast area in which, after the military operation, the

24     legal system conceived for peacetime is to be applied.  One of the

25     problems was also the factual situation following the war which was in

Page 25646

 1     conflict with the legal system designed for peacetime.

 2             In addition to that, various categories of people entered this

 3     area or spent some time there.  There were straggling paramilitaries or

 4     members of the para-police, or they would infiltrate the area later from

 5     the territory of the neighbouring state.

 6             Then there were also the citizens of the Republic of Croatia who

 7     held the citizenship of Croatia but who were ethnic Serbs and who

 8     remained there after the Operation Storm.  Then ethnic Croats who were

 9     also Croatian citizens spontaneously were returning to the area, as they

10     could freely do that, and come back to the areas where they had not been

11     for four years or longer.  Upon their return, they would, as a rule, find

12     their property destroyed.

13             As I said in one of my answers to your questions today, and as

14     one can see from the documents about the -- about the assessments of the

15     security situation in the area made by police stations and

16     administrations, in addition to everything that I listed so far,

17     activities of various intelligence services were also observed in the

18     area, including, according to the information which I was receiving from

19     our secret services, the remaining elements of the secret services of the

20     previous authorities in the area, and including the services of the

21     country with which we were not officially at war but, in fact, were.

22             So in addition to everything that is typical for areas following

23     military operations and everything else that I mentioned, the situation

24     was certainly such that it fostered developments of this kind.  However,

25     all eyes were turned to the regular police, because, on the basis of the

Page 25647

 1     legal system, it was responsible for prevention, that is to say, the

 2     general security, and prevention of crimes, including military police,

 3     which, according to its responsibility, was responsible for that, in

 4     terms of military personnel or any other persons who visually looked like

 5     military personnel until the moment when it was established that they

 6     were, in fact, not soldiers.

 7        Q.   Thank you for that answer.

 8             MR. KAY:  If we turn to e-court page 206.

 9        Q.   After you have described the area, you mentioned some 40.000 men

10     would be needed to have some sort of concrete control of the area.

11             Did the Ministry of Interior have 40.000 policemen for the

12     liberated area?

13        A.   Mr. Counsel, I believe that you wrongly interpreted one detail

14     from my interview with the investigators, or at least it was not my

15     intention to say so.  Namely, I was not categorical in the sense that

16     40.000 men would have been sufficient.  Quite the contrary.  I wanted to

17     tell the investigators that not even 40.000 men would have been enough.

18             And we can easily get to this information, if we look at the

19     typical way that police is organised in its activities.  Namely, if we

20     were to deploy one policeman on every kilometre to the area of 11.000

21     square kilometres because of the configuration of the terrain, they

22     couldn't even see one another.  And as I explained yesterday, if we were

23     to work in four shifts, in which case everyone would work eight hours,

24     then, four times 11.000 is 44, and if we burden them so as to work

25     12 hours a day so that they would work in three shifts, that means that

Page 25648

 1     we would have 36.000.

 2             So what I wanted to say was that even 40.000 would not have been

 3     enough.  And a direct answer to your question, did we have so many men?

 4     Unfortunately, we did not.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You asked for data to be supplied from the various

 6     police administrations as to what they had been able to report and

 7     investigate after your order on the 18th of August; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  You could say that it was so.  Namely, when it was clear

 9     that we were faced with a spate of negative events, as I said, it was

10     clear that we had to respond to that situation, which included requests

11     for people to work beyond the limits of their abilities, that is to say,

12     of the powers they were invested with.

13        Q.   If we go to Exhibit D573, this is a response to a request for

14     data by you in an order dated the 22nd of August.  This document is from

15     the Sibenik Police Administration dated the 24th of August, and it

16     outlines seven topics that you had asked to be reported upon.

17             MR. KAY:  And that's Exhibit D50 that caused that, Your Honour,

18     to link up this matter.

19        Q.   And if we can just look at the responses that were given to you.

20             Cooperation with the police administration and police stations

21     were inadequate.

22             Is there any comment you could make about that, about inadequacy

23     of cooperation between the Sibenik Police Administration here and its

24     police stations?

25        A.   Excuse me, I believe you meant the cooperation between the

Page 25649

 1     civilian police and the military police, rather than the police

 2     administration of Sibenik and police stations, as you said.

 3        Q.   I have, in paragraph 1 of the English translation here:

 4             "Cooperation within the police administration Sibenik and the

 5     police stations on the territory of this administration is inadequate."

 6             Perhaps could you read out so that we can -- paragraph 1 of

 7     this -- number 1.  Can you read that out, in the Croatian?

 8        A.   Yes, are you right.  I see it now.  So I apologise.

 9             This is what it says.  However, I believe that this was a

10     misunderstanding.  It would be clearer if we could see the document -- my

11     document dated the 18th, because, as far as I remember, under item 1, I

12     requested that cooperation with military police be assessed.  And then,

13     in this document, they report to me that that cooperation of the Sibenik

14     Police Administration and the police stations in the area is inadequate.

15             So that was the cooperation I had in mind, the cooperation with

16     military police, if I remember my own document properly.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, it seems from paragraph 2, if that is

18     directly related to paragraph 1, that there may be a mistake in the first

19     paragraph.

20             MR. KAY:  Yes.

21        Q.   And we can see paragraph 2 there, about cooperation with the

22     72nd Battalion.  I'm going look at this, actually, for another reason,

23     which is --

24             MR. KAY:  If we turn to page 2 of the English, and down at the

25     bottom of page 1 of the Croatian.

Page 25650

 1        Q.   We're looking at paragraph 7, Mr. Moric.  Can you see that?

 2     36 perpetrators of crimes identified of which five are members of the

 3     Croatian army in uniform and the others are civilians.

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   So five out of 36 being military or -- or HV in uniform, while

 6     others are civilians.

 7             In relation to this kind of data, how was it used or studied?

 8     What did you do with it?

 9        A.   It is clear, from the manner of reporting, that, at the level of

10     the assistant minister, specific cases were not analysed but just

11     tendencies so that, on the basis of tendencies, decisions could be made

12     about directing, prevention, and managing the work of the regular police.

13             On the basis of such information, at my level, I made an

14     assessment as to whether we had the cooperation of the military police to

15     the degree that was necessary, considering the situation.  And when the

16     conclusion was that the cooperation was not satisfactory, then I would

17     intervene with the heads of the military police.

18             But I think that, if you allow, it is important to notice two

19     other details in this document.

20        Q.   Yes.  Please tell us.

21        A.   In item 3, it is reported that there are still cases of burning,

22     destruction, and illegal removal of movable property in the liberated

23     areas but to a smaller extent.  And I think that it is important to

24     notice here that the problem is decreasing.

25             And under item 6, it states that in all cases, a criminal

Page 25651

 1     investigation of the crimes is conducted.  I am reported [as interpreted]

 2     about the tendencies here, and I am only reported about criminal

 3     investigation and processing in the context of the necessary assistance

 4     that the regular police should provide with crime police duties.  So they

 5     do not report to me as the assistant minister who is responsible for the

 6     work of the crime police.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We know this was in response to your telegram of the

 8     22nd of August; Exhibit D50.  And if we look at number 5, paragraph 5, we

 9     see that from the time of receipt of the telegram until today, the

10     24th - so that's two days - 21 on-site investigations were carried out.

11     And it describes the type of cases.

12             You were looking at trends.  This number of on-site

13     investigations by the Sibenik Police Administration, was that a quantity

14     that showed they were under-investigating, or was that a high quantity,

15     or was that a quantity you would have expected they could have coped with

16     to investigate?

17        A.   I said yesterday that, unfortunately, we were undoubtedly faced

18     with a spate of negative events.  When I said that, I wanted to emphasise

19     by this formulation that there was an unusually large number of such

20     cases.  And in this context, if, in two days, we had 21 on-site

21     investigations conducted in cases like these with life and property were

22     endangered or other people's movable property was stolen, then it has to

23     be emphasised that this is to be contrasted with peacetime.  It was a

24     great problem.  And in this context, we were concerned, because we

25     wondered when we would reach the level of security that would be at the

Page 25652

 1     normal level in areas where no military operations had been conducted.

 2     And this was an area where all of this was happening in the wake of the

 3     military operation.

 4        Q.   So looking at it, did 21 on-site investigations give you a figure

 5     that Sibenik Police Administration was not doing its job, or did it give

 6     you a figure that showed it was doing its job?

 7        A.   Of course, it looked as if they were doing their work properly

 8     under the conditions that were implying a burden that was several times

 9     higher than under normal circumstances, and one should take into account

10     the fact that this area was just a part of the area of responsibility of

11     the Sibenik Police Administration.  It was also in charge of areas where

12     there had been no military activity, that is to say, that were not

13     covered by the Operation Storm, and there they also had to carry out

14     their regular police duties and regular police work.

15        Q.   Was the territory of the Sibenik Police Administration increased

16     after Operation Storm to include areas that had previously been occupied?

17        A.   Yes, certainly.

18        Q.   And in normal times, would this police administration expect to

19     be dealing with 21 on-site investigations in two days, or would that be

20     more than its usual number?

21        A.   This figure put into a routine police work framework in the area

22     of the Sibenik Police Administration at the time, and concerning the type

23     of crimes, would have occurred within a six-month period or even within a

24     one-year period.

25             Generally speaking, the police administration may have been able

Page 25653

 1     to conduct 20 or 21 on-site investigations on other types of crimes, such

 2     as burglaries, breaking and entry, traffic accidents with significant

 3     property damage and wounded or killed people in such accidents.  If we

 4     take that into account, then perhaps this figure would be valid for a

 5     full month.  But if we take into account these specific crimes, that

 6     would have covered a much longer period of time.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:  Let's go to Exhibit D575.

 9        Q.   This is the next report from Sibenik Police Administration,

10     1st of September, 1995, arising from a request by you, again, for data.

11     And we can see what it deals with in paragraph 1.

12             If we turn to paragraph 2 of the document, we can see a comment

13     on the VP units in paragraph 2.  Lack of personnel.  We can see, in

14     paragraph 3, incidents, the type of incidents.  And we can see the figure

15     between, in paragraph 5, 22nd to the 31st of August,

16     48 on-site investigations carried out as a total.

17             Again, taking that period of nine days,

18     48 on-site investigations, is that a lot for the Sibenik Police

19     Administration?

20        A.   For this type of crimes, that is to say, stealing other people's

21     property and arson, this is far too many, in relation to their regular

22     routine police work in peacetime.

23        Q.   The capacity of the police administration to have more

24     investigators within their criminal police department to carry out

25     on-site investigations, was that possible to expand, to provide the

Page 25654

 1     appropriate police to carry out the investigations?

 2        A.   I think my colleague, assistant minister in charge of the crime

 3     police, did so.  He increased the number of crime policemen in the

 4     territory of these police administrations, although I do not recall the

 5     exact figures and which areas specifically.  It is easy to see that those

 6     police administrations and stations needed any kind of assistance at that

 7     time.

 8             MR. KAY:  If we go to page 3 of the English to paragraph 7.

 9        Q.   You can see it in the Croatian on the first page.

10     38 perpetrators, eight members of the HV; rest are civilians.  We see it

11     signed by the chief of the police administration.

12             I want to put these questions, now, to you:

13             Could you have done more to prevent crime?  Could you have done

14     more to expand your police?

15        A.   Counsel, yesterday we discussed the number of policemen we

16     brought in from the two-thirds of the territory that was free whom we

17     sent to the area liberated in Operation Storm.  We undertook the risk of

18     having too few in the area where there were three and a half million of

19     Croatian citizens, also running the risk of seeing the number of crimes

20     proportionally increase in that area.  We simply weighed the benefits

21     against the damage.

22             We concluded that the damage in the free areas were to be -- was

23     to be far less than choosing not to intervene in the territory liberated

24     in Operation Storm.  Hence, I believe we did our utmost.  The people we

25     sent into that territory to assist had to bear an additional burden, by

Page 25655

 1     having introduced the new shift change, that is to say, three shifts per

 2     day, which meant that he had to work in excess of eight hours per day.

 3             In my document of the 18th of August, I consciously opened up the

 4     possibility for the civilian police, in cases of absence of the military

 5     police, to enter the area of the military police purview.  We

 6     objectively, excessively burdened our personnel.  And on top of all that,

 7     we asked them to possibly overstep the boundaries of their purview.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. KAY:  If we could just look at another document, 65 ter

10     2D00485 from the --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, when waiting for this document, I'd like

12     to --

13             I'd like to know -- have a bit more of an answer on a question

14     which I think implicitly was put to you, but perhaps I may not have

15     understood the answer.

16             Mr. Kay has put to you 21 on-site investigations in two days; and

17     from other document, it appears 48 on-site investigations in nine days.

18     And he asked, Does that mean that the job was not done.

19             I have not received a clear answer.  You said it is far too many,

20     and you told us that you would need at least so-and-so many days, if not

21     a month, for doing the same job.

22             Now, there are a few possibilities.  The one is that it's a --

23     impossible to do 21 on-site investigations in two days, which means that

24     either they were not done, or they were done in such a sloppy way that it

25     could not be taken seriously, or whatever other explanation you may have.

Page 25656

 1     Same for the 48 on-site investigations in nine days, an average of seven

 2     a day, how many policemen were there available ...

 3             So I would like to know how you interpret this.  Do you interpret

 4     this as -- well, we did it, but it must have been done in an improper way

 5     because you can't do it properly in such a limited time, or do you have

 6     any other explanation that it was exaggerated or perhaps 10 percent was

 7     done properly and the remaining 90 per cent was done properly.  Whatever.

 8             Could you give us a clear answer to the matter?  You said it was

 9     far too many for such a number of days.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you don't know, then please tell us as well.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I know the answer.

13     Then I must have misunderstood counsel in his question.  I thought he was

14     asking me whether the number of crimes and the structure of crimes in

15     that period was much in excess to what would otherwise be expected in

16     peacetime.  That is why I said there far too many, especially in terms of

17     types of crime.

18             In peacetime, some of the crimes of that type would not have

19     taken place anyhow.  That was the thrust of my answer.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I do not know whether you understood

21     Mr. Kay's answer [sic] correctly.  If so, then I take it that you have

22     answered the question.

23             But, then, I have added a question to the question that was put

24     to you by Mr. Kay.  But perhaps Mr. Kay clarifies what he intended to

25     ask.

Page 25657

 1             MR. KAY:  I'm grateful to Your Honour.  Thank you very much.

 2        Q.   What I'm talking about is the capacity of the police

 3     administration to deal with 21 on-site investigations in that many days.

 4             Perhaps we start, first of all, with who attends an on-site

 5     investigation.  Who does an on-site investigation?  Perhaps you could

 6     list the people you would expect to see.

 7        A.   The civilian police is duty-bound to secure the scene of crime in

 8     order to preserve any traces of the crime.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  sorry.  Don't put the jobs.

10     Let have the people.  Forget the jobs; we know the jobs actually.  We

11     have other -- just tell me the people who attend an on-site

12     investigations --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And primarily the number of people which were

14     employed by the persons reporting.  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the number of people,

16     of course, depends on the type of crime involved and the size of the

17     location.  But, in principle, when there is an on-site investigation,

18     that involves the basic-duty police and the crime police simultaneously.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, perhaps, on average, how many duty police, how

20     many crime police?

21             The time of the -- the type of crimes we're talking about here.

22             MR. KAY:  Take the burning of a house, as an example, if I may,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although minority and those numbered, isn't it?

25             MR. KAY:  Yeah.

Page 25658

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But -- most -- okay.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we use that example

 3     there should be at least three basic-duty policemen and two crime

 4     policemen plus a scene-of-crime officer or a crime technician that.  That

 5     would also depend, of course, on the location and the way the crime was

 6     perpetrated, including the area size.

 7             MR. KAY:

 8        Q.   Would the investigating judge attend?

 9        A.   That is correct.  I did not mention him, because he is not part

10     of the Ministry of the Interior.  But, in any case, an investigating

11     judge should be called in.  Under the then-Law on Criminal Procedure, an

12     investigation is directed by a judge.  And it is also clearly defined as

13     an investigating activity.

14        Q.   Yeah, so what I need is not just Ministry of Interior, but it's

15     all the people who would attend an on-site investigation in the Croatian

16     system at that time.

17             Does the investigating judge come on his own, or is there any

18     other official staff?

19        A.   In principle, he or she would not come alone.  They always have

20     an assistant as well as technical personnel that accompany him.

21             In principle, there would be at least two people: the judge and

22     an assistant who would be there for technical assistance, transport,

23     bringing in equipment, and so on and so forth.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I think it may assist the Court if you tell them,

25     now, in relation to a looting where a house has had its contents taken

Page 25659

 1     away, or some of its content, let's say, fridges, or a fridge, furniture;

 2     and there's an on-site investigation.

 3             In relation to, then, the theft of removal property, how many

 4     people from the Ministry of Interior would attend?

 5        A.   Counsel, I understand your question, and I hope you understand

 6     that that depends on the scope or size of the crime, the size of the

 7     house, the number of items taken away.  It also depends on the initial

 8     report based on which an assessment is made of a possible number of

 9     perpetrators.

10             We have to assess whether a single person could take the items

11     away or whether there must have been assistance.

12             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you say it

13     depends on the circumstances; that's perfectly understood, on average.

14     And could we go how many basic police officers would be, on average,

15     attend a on-site investigation in relation to stealing private property?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we use the example of a house,

17     then that would be at least two basic-duty policemen and also at least

18     two crime policemen.

19             If we speak on average, then I would be prone to say three

20     regular-duty policemen, three crime policemen.  And if we add the

21     investigating judge on top of that, plus his assistants -- assistant, I

22     would say there would be three of them as well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in your experience, an on-site investigation in

24     relation to arson would take approximately how much time?  From arrival

25     of all those, until they leave.  Again, on average; arson case.

Page 25660

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, speaking from

 2     experience, unfortunately, mostly in the cases of arson, an on-site

 3     investigation is made somewhat easier, no matter how harsh that may

 4     sound, because most of the traces would have been destroyed anyhow.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Explanations may come later, but I would first like

 6     to have an on-average time of such an on-site investigation; arson.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On, average, Your Honour, it would

 8     last between one and a half and two hours.  But what would take the most

 9     time would be to ascertain the way in which that arson was committed.

10     One would need to carry out expert analysis afterwards.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand all that.  But we are focussing, at

12     this moment, on on-site investigations, as reported, that had taken

13     place.

14             Same question for theft of private property.  On average, from

15     arrival of those in attendance, up till them leaving the place - and I do

16     understand that you need time for transportation as well - for a --

17     private property being stolen; an on-site investigation.  On average, how

18     much time?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would take longer, because one

20     needs to look -- locate and fix any existing traces, including the

21     so-called papillary lines.  I would guess that it would take between

22     three and four hours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, please proceed.  I think we're trying to

24     find out the same information.

25             MR. KAY:  We are -- we certainly are, Your Honour, and I'm

Page 25661

 1     grateful for Your Honour's assistance.

 2        Q.   An on-site investigation, does that include just the work at the

 3     place, the scene of the crime, or is there further work involved in the

 4     neighbourhood of the crime within those time estimates?  For instance,

 5     going to other houses in the village or in the location to see if someone

 6     is there, to speak to them, finding people in the fields nearby?

 7             Can you describe exactly what an on-site investigation is now,

 8     having given us that information?

 9        A.   Counsel, I am not a crime expert, but I can speak from experience

10     and try to answer as clearly as possible.

11             It is very difficult to take an average for a standardised

12     procedure in locations of such crimes, but frequently, in practice, such

13     measures are needed to actually shed light on the crime itself and to

14     detect the perpetrator.

15             If one wants to catch such a perpetrator, one needs to undertake

16     a number of measures and activities beyond the location itself.  This

17     includes the settlement itself, as well as going to other settlements or

18     towns.  And it would largely depend on the type of information you

19     gather.  This may entail long-distance travel even, although not

20     frequently.

21        Q.   Do these average times that you've been able to give us - and we

22     appreciate that they're average - do they include work outside the

23     immediate area as part of the on-site investigation, or is there further

24     time needed for other work outside the immediate area?

25        A.   I understood His Honour's question as having referred to the

Page 25662

 1     location itself.  That is to say, what would be the average time to

 2     investigate a crime on location and not to conclude the entire criminal

 3     investigation in order to close the case.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I know that you've -- you're not finished

 5     yet with this.

 6             I'm looking at the clock, however.  We have to adjourn for the

 7     day.

 8             Could you give us an estimate on how much time would you still

 9     need?

10             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, one session, and I will be done tomorrow.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that you're going over the three

12     sessions.

13             MR. KAY:  I am, with apologies, Your Honour.  But we have

14     travelled at a fast pace, I would say, in my own defence.  If I should

15     defend myself.  And we've covered many, many issues which, I think - in

16     our submission - are relevant to this case, and particularly the Defence

17     of Mr. Cermak.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I will discuss with my colleagues whether

19     there is any case to answer.

20             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moric, I give you the same instructions as I

22     gave you yesterday and the day before, that is, that you should not speak

23     with anyone about your testimony.  And we'd like to see you back tomorrow

24     morning at 9.00.

25             Because we adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

Page 25663

 1     Friday, the 4th of December, 9.00 in the morning, in this same

 2     courtroom, III.

 3                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 4th day of

 5                           December, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.