Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25745

 1                           Monday, 7 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Gotovina, et al.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Two small procedural matters.

14             Mr. Kehoe, during your cross-examination on Friday, you wondered

15     what to do with a number of documents.  I suggested that you would try to

16     agree on a joint filing and bar table the documents involved.  The

17     Chamber was informed an agreement has been reached and that we could

18     expect a joint filing bar tabling these documents.

19             MR. KEHOE:  That's correct, Mr. President.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Then there's another matter which is the Markac Defence was given

22     until close of business today to come with some scheduling information.

23             To the extent it would be possible already to give it around the

24     first break that would be appreciated, because the Chamber has scheduled

25     an internal meeting during the day and if we would not have that

Page 25746

 1     information, that would certainly -- well, not be a problem, but with

 2     your information it would be easier to have that meeting.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  We will do so on the beginning of the next

 4     session, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Then, Mr. Moric, I would like to remind you -- first of all, good

 7     morning to you as well.  I would like to remind that you that you are

 8     still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the

 9     beginning of your testimony last week.

10             Then, Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to cross-examined

11     Mr. Moric.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, I am thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President, with leave of

15     Court --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my apologies.

17             Good morning to you and everyone in the courtroom.

18             Before we start, may I ask your assistance on two points.

19             I am not sure if I am familiar enough with the procedure.  During

20     the examination of Mrs. Prosecutor, may I indicate the documents that I

21     know or I presume were earlier on admitted into evidence and be shown

22     them so that I may answer the questions more easily?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If would you like to refer to documents which you

24     have not available to yourself, please indicate so, and depending on what

25     they are, and depending on what the question is, we'll then consider

Page 25747

 1     whether or not you can consult them.

 2             Yes.  Any other matter, Mr. Moric?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             The other matter is this.  During my examination of last week, I

 5     noticed that both parties made notes on paper.  And I believe that I am

 6     somewhat handicapped in that regard.  May I be given a pencil and a piece

 7     the paper so that I can make a note for myself.  I would not be taking it

 8     out of the courtroom, nor would I be bringing into the courtroom any

 9     papers from the outside.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the first is of less concern to us than the

11     second would be.  If you would like to make notes when a question is

12     asked, then there should be no problem.  But, if you have any written

13     documents, whether personal notes or anything else you brought with you,

14     and if you would like to consult it, you should first seek permission to

15     do so.

16             But I see you're nodding, no, that you didn't bring anything.

17             Then matters are clear.

18             Ms. Mahindaratne.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  With leave of Court

21     if I could also have the transcript -- hard copy of the transcript given

22     to the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could someone provide Mr. Moric with a

24     clean piece of paper, or even a few, and a pen.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 25748

 1                           WITNESS:  JOSKO MORIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Cross-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Moric.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   In preparation for your testimony here, did you have the

 7     opportunity to meet any of the Defence teams?

 8        A.   Before entering the courtroom?

 9        Q.   Before entering the courtroom.

10        A.   Yes.  I was preparing with the Defence team that called me as a

11     witness.

12        Q.   How many times did you meet with -- your -- I presume when you

13     said "the Defence team," you're referring to the Defence team for

14     Mr. Markac; isn't that correct?

15        A.   But, of course.  I am the witness for the Defence of

16     General Markac.

17        Q.   Did you meet any of the other two Defence teams, either the

18     Defence team for Mr. Gotovina or the Defence team for Mr. Cermak?

19        A.   Yes.  I met with them briefly too.

20        Q.   Can you tell the Court how many times you met each of the teams

21     in preparation for testimony; that is, the Markac team, the Gotovina

22     Defence team, and the Defence team for Mr. Cermak?

23        A.   I met with each of the three Defence teams once; and, of course,

24     the meeting with the Defence for General Markac was much longer.

25        Q.   And in the course of those meetings, were you shown documents?

Page 25749

 1        A.   Yes.  Some of the documents, yes.

 2        Q.   Were you -- were those documents familiar to you?  Were those

 3     documents issued by you, or were there also other documents that you had

 4     not seen prior to that time?

 5        A.   I don't remember that there was discussion of documents I didn't

 6     see.  We mostly discussed the documents that I saw and the documents that

 7     I wrote and signed at -- at a certain point in time.

 8        Q.   Were you informed or was there a discussion about the evidence

 9     that has been already led in these proceedings, evidence of other

10     witnesses or documentary evidence?  Was there a discussion with you about

11     that evidence?  By any one of the teams.

12        A.   My apologies, Mrs. Prosecutor, if I misunderstood your question.

13     You're asking me if the Defence teams discussed statements of other

14     witnesses who have so far testified before this Tribunal?

15        Q.   That's correct.

16        A.   No, we didn't discuss that.

17        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

18             Now, your testimony is that you were in charge of

19     Operation Povratak or Operation Return, as it is known.  Now, as a person

20     in charge of OA Povratak when reports were sent to the Ministry of

21     Interior addressed to the OA Povratak staff, did those reports reach you

22     or were you informed of the contents of those reports by any person?

23        A.   In principle, reports reached me.  Some of the reports did not

24     reach me, but it depended on their substance and on my whereabouts at the

25     time, whether I was in the office or away.  In that case the report would

Page 25750

 1     have reached the chief of the sector or, as I've already called him, to

 2     make it more easily understandable, to the head of the personnel of the

 3     police.

 4        Q.   And in those instances, when reports did not reach you because

 5     you were not present in the ministry premises, were you, afterwards,

 6     informed of the contents of the reports by the -- the chief of the

 7     sector?

 8        A.   It depended on the contents, relevance, or less of the report.

 9     But, in principle, he should have informed me thereof.

10        Q.   Okay.  Now, during examination of Mr. Kay, he discussed with you

11     a whole series of documents relating to the operation, security operation

12     known as OA Knin 95.  And that was a highly organised, coordinated

13     security operation providing security for the liberty train, isn't that

14     correct, which reached Knin on 26th August?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   Now, that -- in -- in organising that operation, the forces of

17     the Ministry of Interior coordinated and worked in cooperation with the

18     military police; isn't that correct?

19        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, among others, the military police was involved

20     too.  In that particular operation, absolutely all security services of

21     the Republic of Croatia were involved, including, of course, the military

22     police.

23        Q.   And about how many members of the Ministry of Interior were used

24     for that operation?  I'm talking about fundamental police firstly.

25        A.   It's difficult to specify.  I can only speculate, based on --

Page 25751

 1        Q.   Could you give an approximate figure, sort of ballpark figure.

 2     You don't have to be very specific on the exact figures.

 3        A.   If I think back about the railway line, which the freedom train

 4     took, and the regular police obligations attached to high-risk travels,

 5     then I can think of the enormous duties in the places where the train

 6     stopped; whereas, for the police the duties were mostly attached to the

 7     line where the train ran.  It could have involved in terms of any direct

 8     participation, some 300 to 400 policemen.  As soon as the train left the

 9     section of the area they covered, they would be relieved of some of the

10     duties that they had previously.

11        Q.   And are you able to give some idea as to about how many members

12     of the military police were used for the operation?  If you don't know,

13     you could say you don't know; if you can give us perhaps a ballpark

14     figure, then please do so.

15        A.   In this high-risk security operation, it was not realistic to

16     expect any high-risk security for the military police force.  I cannot,

17     unfortunately, assess what the strength of the military police involved

18     was.  What I can state with certainty is that the numbers were far lower

19     than the number of the civilian policeman involved.

20        Q.   And for how long did the preparations go on, until the 26th?

21        A.   As we were able to see from the document, the preparations were

22     conducted by the national security office.  I can't gauge how long their

23     preparations took, but if you're asking me how long it took the civilian

24     police to get involved in the action, I could tell you a few things about

25     it.

Page 25752

 1        Q.   Mr. Moric, I don't mean to be rude.  I'm asking for what you

 2     know, so if you could just let us know, based on your understanding, the

 3     preparation for civilian police, how long it took.  And if you could try

 4     to be brief in your responses, I would be grateful.

 5        A.   I will be brief, Mrs. Prosecutor.

 6             I don't know how long the preparations took from the viewpoint of

 7     national security, but the preparations of the civilian police did not

 8     take long, because the police was always present in its area of

 9     responsibility.

10        Q.   So are you able to give us any idea.  Is it not very long, is it

11     a week, a few days?  If you could just give us some idea.

12        A.   Two days.

13        Q.   And did you have any problems about coordination between the

14     military police during this particular operation?

15        A.   I don't recall that we had any problems.

16        Q.   Now is it also correct that in the run-up to the -- the arrival

17     of the liberty train there were a series of mop-up operations carried out

18     in the area by the special police to provide further security for the

19     train, from 21st August downwards?

20        A.   I apologise, but probably under the term "mop-up" you mean the

21     police searches of a terrain?

22        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  That's what -- if I ever I use the word

23     "mop-up" I refer to the terrain clearance operations.

24        A.   Apologise my digression, but the "mop-up" term is not a police

25     term.  That's why I wanted to be quite sure of what it is that you meant.

Page 25753

 1             It wasn't just in -- prior to this particular action, but the

 2     searches had to be carried out in general, and, of course, then also in

 3     preparation for the journey that the President of the Republic and the

 4     government members would take.

 5        Q.   Now, as a member of the committee, if there were any breaches of

 6     security in the area, particularly close to the area where the train was

 7     travelling through, would you have been informed of that?

 8        A.   In principle, I would have had to have been informed, save if the

 9     piece of information fell under the remit of national security and were

10     classified as such.

11        Q.   Now, were you informed that there were -- there was some combat

12     activity in an area - and I will be very specific - in an area called

13     Ramljane, which is not too distant from the rail track on 26th August.

14     That's the day that the train was scheduled to arrive in Knin.  Were you

15     informed that?

16        A.   Since that was a period of time that was quite eventful, I'm not

17     sure if I was, indeed, informed of it.  But I believe that I would be,

18     yes.

19        Q.   I didn't ask you whether you would be, Mr. Moric.  My question

20     was:  To your recollection, were you informed that there was combat

21     activity in an area called Ramljane, which is not too distant from the

22     rail track on the very day the President was arriving in Knin.  Do you

23     remember that, or don't you remember that?

24        A.   I apologise, Madam Prosecutor.  Unfortunately, the only correct

25     answer is that I don't remember.

Page 25754

 1        Q.   Thank you for that.

 2             Now, were you present in Knin on 25th and 26th August because of

 3     the arrival of the liberty train in Knin on 26th?  And I'm referring to

 4     both days:  25th and 26th, or 25th or 26th.

 5        A.   Madam Prosecutor, it -- that was not the reason.  I was not in

 6     Knin because of the arrival of the train.  I was there because of the

 7     general context, and I believe that I was also there on the 25th and the

 8     26th.  I'm sure that I was there on the day when the President of the

 9     state arrived in Knin.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Moric, I'm it going to discuss with you a particular

11     topic about which much evidence has been led in these proceedings, and

12     you yourself have discussed this at length with the investigators of the

13     OTP, and that's about events in Grubori.

14             Now when did you learn for the first time of -- that an incident

15     had occurred in Grubori?

16        A.   I can't remember exactly.  I don't remember when it was that I

17     learned for the first time.  But I remember that it was a few days, a

18     couple of days or even a few more days after the event.

19        Q.   Who informed you of -- of the event?

20        A.   Unfortunately, I can't remember that either.  A lot of

21     information reached us from all over the place at the time.  It could

22     have been one of my staff who acted as the coordinator in the area.

23             I'm not sure whether it was perhaps Mr. Tomurad or Mr. Franjo.

24        Q.   Now, were you informed that the incident related to the -- the --

25     the death, killings of five civilians and burning of several houses?

Page 25755

 1        A.   No, Madam Prosecutor.  That's not how I was informed.  I did not

 2     receive any particular data.  All I learnt was that there had been an

 3     event, not an incident, but, rather, an event, with some casualties.  The

 4     information was not specific at all.

 5        Q.   So can you tell us what was conveyed to you?  You say "not an

 6     incident, an event."  But could you tell the Trial Chamber what really

 7     was conveyed to you in that first information.  Were you told that

 8     civilians had died in the event?

 9        A.   I can say that the information I was conveyed spoke about an

10     event, which involved casualties.  No numbers were mentioned, and the

11     event was not qualified in any way.

12        Q.   And were you told that the casualties were civilians?

13        A.   Yes, that's how I understood the information.  The way I

14     understood it was that the victims in question were civilians.

15        Q.   Now, to your knowledge, was this event investigated by any sector

16     of the Ministry of Interior?  And I don't want you to speculate,

17     Mr. Moric.  I just want you to tell the Trial Chamber what you know.

18        A.   I know for a fact, Madam Prosecutor, because I wanted to make

19     sure, I wanted to check that the event was recorded at the Knin police

20     station, and that the information about the event was conveyed was to the

21     chief of the police administration and the head of the police station.

22        Q.   Now, your testimony was that, in fact this is at transcript

23     reference T-25634 and 635, you testified here that information generally

24     was passed on from the police station to the police administration, and

25     from the police administration it went on to the Ministry of Interior.

Page 25756

 1             Now, to your knowledge did your report -- now in fact the

 2     Trial Chamber is in receipt of the Knin police station log which records

 3     the event and the Knin -- Zadar-Knin police administration log which,

 4     too, records the event.

 5             Now, to your knowledge, was a report sent from the Zadar-Knin

 6     police administration to the Ministry of Interior about the event in

 7     Grubori, as it was recorded by them?

 8        A.   I didn't see that report.  However, as per rules, it should have

 9     reached the ministry.

10        Q.   Now, during the examinations of, I believe, when Mr. Kay examined

11     you, we see a series of reports from the police administration chiefs to

12     you, which records on-site investigations in relation to arson and theft.

13             Now, you said after a few days from this incident you learnt that

14     an event had occurred and there were casualties, civilian casualties.

15     Wouldn't you have expected to then also receive a report from the

16     Zadar-Knin police administration chief on the on-site investigation into

17     the deaths of those civilians?  Weren't you expecting to receive that

18     report?

19        A.   No, Madam Prosecutor, I did not expect that, and I should not

20     have expected that.  Such a report along the professional lines goes to

21     the crime police sector of the Ministry of the Interior.

22        Q.   Mr. Moric, your testimony here is, and I can cite exactly what

23     you said, that -- that it was a duty of the fundamental police to secure

24     the crime site and secure the evidence until the crime police arrives.

25     And we saw in fact your report sent by the chiefs of police

Page 25757

 1     administration giving you numbers of on-site investigation into arson and

 2     theft.  So why wouldn't you expect to receive a report on an on-site

 3     investigation, how they secured the site?

 4             On this event, killing -- killings, why is it that when it comes

 5     to this particular event, you don't expect a report on the on-site

 6     investigation from the fundamental police?

 7        A.   Madam Prosecutor, in the report that you have just quoted, you

 8     will not find information about the events which were potentially attacks

 9     against human lives, because those would be grave crimes or potentially

10     grave crimes.  In other words, it was the crime police that should have

11     been informed about that and should have primarily dealt with that.

12        Q.   I'm trying to understand your testimony, Mr. Moric.  Is it your

13     position, then, that when it comes to on-site investigations into

14     killings, the fundamental police -- members of the fundamental police

15     don't participate in the on-site investigation at all?  Is that -- is

16     that your testimony?

17        A.   Of course not.  Of course, they do.  However, as you may have

18     noticed in the documents that we discussed last week, fortunately enough

19     we had in the area a substantially low number of aggravated crimes and

20     killings.  By contrast, we had a lot of attacks against abandoned

21     property, and we -- we dealt with larger numbers.  Obviously not ignoring

22     the other incidents.  However, when it comes to murder attempts, the

23     fundamental police is -- are involved, but the crime police is

24     professionally involved and deals with it along professional lines.

25        Q.   No, I understand that, Mr. Moric.  But isn't it the case that in

Page 25758

 1     the -- when it comes to arson and theft, it's the fundamental police that

 2     initially secures the crime site and the evidence, and thereafter the

 3     crime police conducts the investigation, when it comes to arson and

 4     theft.  That's correct, isn't it?

 5        A.   That's correct.  And while the on-site investigation is going on,

 6     for as long as it lasts, the fundamental police do have things to do one

 7     site, while the crime police are doing their job.

 8        Q.   Now, it is on the basis of that involvement in the on-site

 9     investigations of the fundamental police that you received the reports on

10     arson and theft that we saw during your examination.  Isn't that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  Those reports are sent by the chiefs of police

12     administrations as we have seen.  They report on the trends and on the

13     problems segregated by types.

14        Q.   Now in the same vein, in cases of killings, the crime site is

15     secured by the fundamental police and until the crime investigation

16     police -- crime takes over.  They secure the site, they secure the

17     evidence, and participate in the same way they would participate in the

18     case of an arson.  Isn't that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right, Madam Prosecutor.  But a small correction.

20     Not until the crime police takes over, but all the time, for as long as

21     the crime police are involved, and also depending on what the crime

22     police expect from the fundamental police.  During the entire onsite

23     investigation, unfortunately, the fundamental police have things to do

24     and are involved.

25        Q.   So why wouldn't the fundamental police then not send you a report

Page 25759

 1     on on-site investigations conducted into killing incidents?  What is the

 2     difference?  I fail to see the difference, Mr. Moric.

 3        A.   So it seems, it seems that you really fail to see the difference,

 4     and I may be of assistance.

 5             The difference lies in the gravity of the problem.  If an event

 6     involves the death of one or more people, then potentially we are dealing

 7     with an aggravated crime, with a grave crime which specifically engages

 8     and involves both types of police but primarily the crime police.  And

 9     one shouldn't assume that the crime police, along the lines of their

10     organisation and responsibility, will not inform all those who should be

11     informed, including the Ministry of Interior.

12             We have discussed the documents, we discussed the documents last

13     week, and you could see from those documents that we dealt with the

14     prevention of those crimes, which actually represented a large number of

15     incidents.  Fortunately enough, those did not involve a high number of

16     grave crimes, including the attacks on civilians.  In that huge number,

17     we had a prevailing number of other problems.

18        Q.   Okay, Mr. Moric, let me move on without wasting any more time on

19     that issue.

20             Would you be surprised to be told that this Trial Chamber has

21     heard evidence that no sector of the Ministry of Interior conducted an

22     investigation into what happened in Grubori until 2001, when the

23     State Prosecutor, Mr. Zganjer, initiated an investigation?  Are you aware

24     of that fact?

25        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I know of that only partially.  I'm not

Page 25760

 1     surprised to hear that fact.  In practice, in the practice of almost all

 2     police forces worldwide, there are the so-called cases, cold cases, which

 3     need to be investigated, even ten years after the event.

 4        Q.   Mr. Moric, that wasn't my question.  My question is: Are you

 5     aware that the incident has not been investigated by any sector of the

 6     Ministry of Interior until 2001?  The event happened in 1995.  Were you

 7     aware of that?

 8        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I don't know why you are insisting on saying

 9     not a single sector since -- you know that there is only one sector in

10     the Ministry of the Interior which deals with such crimes, and that is

11     the sector of crime police.

12             As far as I know, from the time when I was affiliated with the

13     Ministry of Interior, the problem lay in the fact that it had never been

14     established what had happened there, whether a crime did happen or not.

15        Q.   My question is, Mr. Moric, did you know that the crime police --

16     if that's what you want to say, you say there is only one sector which

17     they investigated, let me ask you:  Did you know that the crime police

18     never investigated what happened in Grubori, even to establish as to what

19     had happened, never conducted any investigations into the incident until

20     2001?  This Trial Chamber has heard that evidence.  Did you know that as

21     an assistant minister?

22        A.   Not in such a way.  And that was not my responsibility.  I was

23     not duty-bound to learn something like that.

24        Q.   Mr. Moric, your subordinate officer Mr. Cetina, chief of

25     Zadar-Knin police administration testified here.  He was aware of that

Page 25761

 1     fact.  And this is transcript reference 23518 to 23519, and he did in

 2     fact acknowledge that the police had not investigated the events in

 3     Grubori.

 4             Now, there's also evidence that has been led in this Court, and I

 5     refer to P35, where UN Human Rights Action Team visiting the crime site

 6     over two weeks after the incident found bullet casings still uncollected

 7     by the police at the crime site.

 8             Now, you have testified here that it was the duty of the

 9     fundamental police to secure a site and collect the evidence, which shows

10     that, actually, even the fundamental police in this instance hasn't done

11     anything with regard to investigations.

12             What do you have to say about that?

13        A.   Madam Prosecutor, in your questions to the former assistant

14     minister for the fundamental police you are trying to equate him as a

15     member of the fundamental police involved in investigation.  The members

16     of the fundamental police are trained and equipped to go to a site and to

17     be able to recognise what that site represents.  They know how to secure

18     that area, and they now how to recognise the potential of possible

19     evidence about the event.  They also know how to recognise who the

20     potential witnesses are.

21             This is more or less what the fundamental police is supposed to

22     on-site.  On the other hand, if Mr. Cetina, in his testimony, said what

23     you have just quoted back to me - and there's no reason for me to doubt

24     your words - then in accordance with the provisions of the Law on

25     Internal Affairs, Mr. Cetina was talking about the responsibility of the

Page 25762

 1     police administration and a police station.  The law clearly prescribes

 2     that, at that time, a police station was in charge of monitoring the

 3     situation and the events in its area and undertook measures to implement

 4     the law.  Furthermore, the law charges a police station and a police

 5     administration for the area for which it was established, and finally the

 6     ministry with responsibility for the entire state.  Madam Prosecutor,

 7     subsidiary responsibility is prescribed in performing legally prescribed

 8     duties.

 9        Q.   Mr. Moric, you're the assistant minister in charge of fundamental

10     police, you were in 1991, and the more senior member of the Ministry of

11     Interior who has testified in these proceedings up to date.  Now, I have

12     placed before you the fact that the fundamental police did not carry out

13     an on-site investigation into an incident of killing of civilians and

14     burning of houses which you were made aware of a few days after the

15     incident, and your response is to me is that I'm equating you to a member

16     of the fundamental police, which I'm trying to do.  I'm just asking you

17     if you're in a position to offer an explanation to the Trial Chamber as

18     to why the fundamental police, your subordinates, failed to carry out a

19     -- an on-site investigation into this serious crime.

20             Are you able to offer an explanation to the Trial Chamber, as the

21     person in charge of the financial police?

22        A.   Of course, Madam Prosecutor, I can, as I have so far.

23             The fundamental police are not in charge of carrying out an

24     on-site investigation.  They do not carry out criminal proceedings.  They

25     just secure the site.  If the fundamental police have not performed their

Page 25763

 1     task in keeping with the law, or as provided for by the law -- I have

 2     described for you the levels of subsidiary responsibility that existed at

 3     the time.

 4             Madam Prosecutor, at that time, there were a total of 11.000

 5     police officers in the Republic of Croatia, and every day, one of them

 6     failed to do something or omitted to do something, but there were levels

 7     above him to punish that or sanction that.  But it wasn't me.  At that

 8     time I could not know, nor was it expect from me, nor was the ministry

 9     organised in such a way that would enable me to learn about every

10     concrete case and to be able to know whether the fundamental police had

11     done everything they were supposed to do or if, by contrast, a police

12     officer made a mistake or failed to do his duty properly.

13        Q.   Okay.  In the interests of time, Mr. Moric, let me just move on.

14             Isn't it correct, and you -- I believe you're fully of this fact

15     because you have spoken about this matter.  Isn't it correct that the

16     police coordinator, Mr. Buhin, in fact wanted to have this event

17     investigated, but Mr. Sacic from the special police arrived in Knin and

18     tried to delay the investigations or prevent the investigations.  And the

19     result of that situation was that you withdrew Mr. Buhin from Knin to

20     Zagreb.  Isn't that correct?

21        A.   Madam Prosecutor, unfortunately, you're not right.

22        Q.   Can you explain why I'm not right, Mr. Moric.

23        A.   I must, and I will.

24             According to information I received about the event, a few days

25     after event, in the police circles, including Mr. Buhin and Mr. Sacic,

Page 25764

 1     whom you have mentioned, there were controversial opinions or, rather, a

 2     conflict between professional opinions as to what had actually happened

 3     there.  There was an opinion, according to which the victims were a

 4     consequence of a crime, and there was also an opinion that they were not,

 5     but, rather, that there were collateral damage in a conflict between the

 6     special police and the remains of paramilitary or a para-police or some

 7     other type of armed conflict.

 8             According to information that I had at the time, Mr. Sacic was

 9     angry, as a matter of fact, and he had every right to be angry, that the

10     problem had not been solved and resolved and that there were still doubts

11     as to what had happened.

12             And as for Mr. Buhin, it is true I withdrew him to Zagreb, but I

13     -- I did that because it was time for his rotation, for him to be

14     replaced, just like with any other coordinator.  That was one reason.

15     And the second reason was the fact that in that concrete case, he did not

16     give initiative to his colleagues from the crime police, and he did not

17     help them in doing their job to the extent a person from the fundamental

18     police could.  It was not for any other reason that he was withdrawn to

19     Zagreb, as you suggested.

20        Q.   Mr. Moric let me take to your statement given to the -- the OTP,

21     the interview.  And if could I ask you to turn to the third section.

22     That is 48 -- V000-4894 that's a final section, Mr. Moric.  And if could

23     you turn to page 3.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's D1842, on e-court page 224, or it could

25     also be traced through 4894, page 3.

Page 25765

 1        Q.   Have you found -- it's page 3, Mr. Moric.  It's the last section.

 2     Under the last tab.

 3        A.   [In English] This one?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   Page?

 6        Q.   Page 3.

 7        A.   Thank you.

 8        Q.   You were asked about this event, and this is your response.  You

 9     say:

10             "Yes, I know why he was -- why he returned to Zagreb.  He was in

11     conflict in a professional sense with the special police because they

12     were crossed.  They were mad, that this case didn't go into our crime,

13     that the crime police did not deal with this case immediately, but it was

14     waited for a day or two until somebody from Zagreb came.  I think it was

15     Mr. Sacic who came from Zagreb, and then it was dealt with.  And I felt

16     that it was not good to leave him in a situation where there is so much

17     tension, regarding the time-period.  So, I called him back to Zagreb."

18             "And in my assessment there was a combination of two reasons why

19     this conflict occurred."

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Going to the next page, page 4.

21        Q.   You say:

22             "One of the reasons why they did not agree on the ... on the

23     story how this event came about.

24             "And then the second conflict was in continuation of that, ...

25     they did not agree what actually happened was that when the procedure was

Page 25766

 1     supposed to ... whether or not there should be a procedure, and if there

 2     should be a procedure, should it be immediate.

 3             "And that [sic] was clear to me that these ... that this event

 4     was ... was recorded, and there is no way now to stop the normal police

 5     procedure."

 6             And then you go on:

 7             "Then I thought that it would be better for Mr. Buhin to go back

 8     to Zagreb and not leave them -- not leave him in that conflict

 9     situation."

10             Then Mr. Foster puts an question to you:

11             "Right.  I'm trying to understand that because it seems to the

12     reverse of what I was told.  It was Mr. Buhin and the chief of police

13     administration, Mr. Romanic, who wanted to investigate it straight away.

14     And it was Mr. Sacic who did not wanted that to happen."

15             If could you go to page 5, you respond:

16             "Yes, you're right.  Allegedly, that was the reason that they

17     were in conflict.  Maybe I interpreted ... maybe I related the thing

18     wrongly, but [sic] ... yes, that was the essence of their conflict."

19             Then you clarify Mr. Moric:

20             "What I know for sure is that the reason for conflict was that

21     one side wanted investigation immediately and the other side wanted

22     investigation little bit later on.  Which side wanted which, I'm not so

23     ... I'm not so positive on, but it's that what's the reason of a

24     conflict.  But I believe that Buhin and Romanic" -- this is at page 6 "as

25     a professional policemen with many years of experience wanted to deal

Page 25767

 1     with things according to regular police procedure, which is to deal with

 2     [sic] immediately.  But knowing Buhin and my ... associates, nobody could

 3     have influenced them that things are done in any way other than the way

 4     they should have been done."

 5             Then you are asked the question:

 6             "Why did ... Mr. Sacic of the special police not [sic] want to go

 7     according to proper procedure?"

 8             And you respond, that's page 7:

 9             "Probably he wanted to see for himself what happened.  I don't

10     see" -- then there is further ... further conversation about that.  "I

11     don't see how that would stop normal procedure continuing."  And you

12     respond, "yes, I agree, but you ask me what do I think, why did he do it,

13     and I'm just assuming.  If I were him, I wouldn't even go there."

14             And you finally -- then you are asked a question:

15             "I suppose it highlights one of the difficulties that your men

16     working under during that period of time?"

17             And at page 8, you respond:

18             "Yes, that's why I chose people to send there according to

19     special criteria.  I wanted experienced policemen with very stable

20     personalities."

21             Now, I'm trying -- now, this is what you have testified, this is

22     in evidence, Mr. Moric.  If I could understand your testimony here,

23     Mr. Buhin wanted to investigation the crime, and Mr. Sacic wanted to

24     delay the investigations.  That's how you understood the matters.  Isn't

25     that correct?

Page 25768

 1        A.   [Interpretation] No, Mrs. Prosecutor.  As I was following what

 2     you were indicating in the transcript, I observed you quoting that I

 3     agreed with what Mr. Foster said.  And as you can see from the

 4     conversation, Mr. Foster suggested what my answer to the question would

 5     be.  And I can see in my answer that I'm speculating.  You can see at

 6     page 7, line 9, I'm telling him I agree, but you asked me what my

 7     assumption was, and I'm speculating, just as you are.  That's in line 9.

 8             Since I was never sent this transcript and I have never had

 9     occasion to review it, I'm not sure that I was either translated or

10     interpreted correctly in what I said here.  But I will answer your

11     question.

12        Q.   Mr. Moric, if I could stop you there for a minute --

13        A.   My perception of the events at the time --

14        Q.   If I could stop you there for a minute.  I just want to let you

15     know, if you wish to, we have the video recording here, and I have the

16     exact timings of your answers.  If you wish to, I can play it to you so

17     that can you see for yourself what you are saying.  I just wanted to let

18     you know before.  So please go ahead.

19        A.   I do not doubt that you can.  But I what I wanted to say was that

20     it would have been proper for the transcript to be sent to me earlier on.

21     But if this isn't something that is required by the rules, let's forget

22     it.

23             The way I understood the matter at the time, Mr. Buhin was a

24     professional policeman, absolutely so, and this was not called into

25     question in this conversation either.  Whatever the situation was, he

Page 25769

 1     demanded that the matter be approached professionally.

 2             What from I understood, Mr. Sacic was cross because the matter

 3     had not been resolved right away, either through an investigation by the

 4     crime police, or through a combination of the involvement of the crime

 5     police and the sanitization team which also comprised a crime-scene

 6     examiner.  Why wasn't it decided right away whether this was a crime and

 7     then a criminal investigation would follow?  Or why it wasn't decided --

 8     of course, in the case it was decided that it was collateral damage, then

 9     the sanitization was to be commenced right away.  In other words, he was

10     cross because the decision was not made right away.

11        Q.   Mr. Moric, I'm going to read again to you what you -- what is in

12     evidence, what you said.  This is what you say:  "What I know for

13     sure" -- this is at page 5 of D1842, the section V000-4894.  This is what

14     you say:

15             "What I know for sure is that the reason for conflict was that

16     one side wanted investigation immediately and the other side wanted

17     investigation a little bit later on.  Which side wanted which, I'm not so

18     ... positive, but that's what the reason of a conflict."

19             That's what you say.  And if you want, we can play your answer

20     back to you on audio.  So what you're saying is, the conflict was because

21     one side wanted the matter investigated immediately, the other side

22     wanted the matter delayed.  Now, you didn't know which side wanted which.

23     But the result was that you withdrew Mr. Buhin to Zagreb.

24             Now, isn't it correct if one of these parties wanted the matter

25     delayed, then obviously that party is obstructing an investigation.  It's

Page 25770

 1     not wanting matters to proceed according to law.  Because an

 2     investigation should take -- be started immediately.  Isn't that correct?

 3        A.   In principle, yes.

 4        Q.   So now, your testimony here was that Mr. Buhin wanted.  I read

 5     back exactly what you said:

 6              "The way I understand the matter at the time Mr. Buhin was a

 7     professional policeman [indiscernible], and this was not called into

 8     question in this conversation either.  Whatever the situation was, he

 9     demanded that the matter be approached professionally."

10             So if Mr. Buhin wanted the matter approached professionally, that

11     would then indicate that he wanted the matter investigated immediately.

12     Isn't that right?

13        A.   Yes, you're right.

14        Q.   In which event the party that wanted the matter delayed would

15     have to be Mr. Sacic, isn't it?

16        A.   According to the information I had, Mr. Sacic came upon this

17     situation where there was a conflict of professional opinions as to what

18     had exactly transpired.  When he realised that there was a conflict of

19     opinion, he was cross for the fact that a decision had not been made at

20     once.  And then, based on the decision, a procedure had not been

21     initiated, either a criminal investigation into the perpetrators of the

22     crime, or if it was collateral damage, then in, according with the

23     Geneva Conventions identification of the victims and the preservation of

24     traces that would indicate their identities, all in keeping with the

25     Conventions.

Page 25771

 1        Q.   Mr. Moric you're a senior police officer.  It's not -- before

 2     talking about opinions as to what happened, don't you think what should

 3     be done is to investigate, carry out an investigation, and thereafter,

 4     based on the information decide as to what happened?  How could you

 5     entertain Mr. Sacic's issue about opinions, conflict of opinions as to

 6     what happened?  What should have been done is to conduct an investigation

 7     immediately; isn't that correct?  Do you agree with me?

 8        A.   Yes, of course, you're right.  I understand, and you're right.

 9        Q.   Then if you agree with me on that, if is there another party

10     suggesting the matter should be delayed because there is some conflict of

11     opinion as to what really happened, that is not relevant, isn't it?  What

12     you should be proposing and advocating is that the matter should be

13     immediately investigated?

14        A.   Yes, of course.  Correct.

15        Q.   That's what Mr. Buhin wanted, isn't it?  Mr. Buhin wanted the

16     matter investigated.

17        A.   Yes, correct.  And he should have asked for the head of the

18     police station, he should have made sure that the head of the police

19     station was informed, and that would have initiated the whole procedure.

20        Q.   Why did you withdraw him to Zagreb?  Here was your police

21     coordinator who wants to have the matter investigated.  There is another

22     person, Mr. Sacic is bringing a completely relevant issue into that

23     process.  Why would you want to withdraw him to Zagreb at a particular

24     time like that?

25        A.   I didn't withdraw him at that critical point.  Rather, it was

Page 25772

 1     several days later.  Mrs. Prosecutor, I said that time had come for

 2     Mr. Buhin to be replaced under the normal system of rotation.  Evidently,

 3     the police station was informed, and the crime police of the police

 4     administration was informed, too, as was the police administration of

 5     Knin.  In other words, conditions were met for the police to start

 6     proceeding, and that's the most relevant matter.

 7             Thereafter, the responsible persons at all levels were supposed

 8     to take measures in keeping with the law, regardless of whether Mr. Buhin

 9     was there or not.  The fact that Mr. Buhin was there did not matter.

10        Q.   Mr. Moric, I want to let you know that you're contradicting your

11     own testimony here.  Your testimony here, very clearly, and it's on

12     record, is that you withdrew Mr. Buhin to Zagreb because of that

13     conflict.  In fact, you know, Mr. Foster has questioned you at depth

14     about why you would want to withdraw him to Zagreb and how the conflict

15     would affect the police activity, and you have clearly stated that the

16     reason for withdrawal was the conflict.  And now you're saying that the

17     reason was because it was time for rotation, which is a complete

18     contradiction.

19             How do you reconcile your testimony?

20        A.   I apologise, Mrs. Prosecutor, you are right.  A moment ago, I

21     only mentioned rotation as the reason.  However, previously in answer to

22     your one of your questions, I cited both reasons as the reasons for his

23     withdrawal.  Namely, the rotation and the conflict of professional

24     opinions.  And that's the correct answer.

25             As far as my conversation with Mr. Foster is concerned, you can

Page 25773

 1     see that he insisted on this matter alone.  Of course, he wasn't

 2     interested in organisational and other aspects of work in the field, and

 3     that's why I did not discuss with him the rotation periods of the men

 4     dispatched to the field, including that of Mr. Buhin.

 5        Q.   Mr. Sacic [sic], you were asked as to why you withdrew Mr. Buhin,

 6     and you never ever informed Mr. Foster as to this new reason that you're

 7     giving today.  You only discussed about the conflict.  You said -- in

 8     fact, let me read again your -- you reiterated that again at page 34.  If

 9     you could turn to page -- it starts at page 33.

10             Mr. Foster again asked you this question:

11             "Okay.  Why remove Mr. Buhin?  You say because of conflict with

12     Sacic.  Bearing" --

13        A.   Where is that I'm sorry, I can't find it.

14        Q.   Page 33, if you turn on the same section.

15        A.   Three --

16        Q.   Page 33.

17        A.   Excuse me, my -- oh, right, I'm sorry.

18             I have found it.  Go ahead.

19        Q.   This is what you say.  You are ask the question:

20             "Okay why remove Mr. Buhin?  You say because of conflict with

21     Sacic.  Bearing in mind that the special police were doing work

22     elsewhere, how often were they likely to meet up?"

23             Mr. Foster is asking you about the issue of conflict.  And at

24     page 34 you say this:

25             "No, this is not a case only of personal conflict between them

Page 25774

 1     two.  I thought about the possible implications of that conflict in

 2     between the two of them."

 3             Then you are asked:

 4             "Why leave Buhin in such an atmosphere where can he get into

 5     another conflict which would be even more and even more expressed because

 6     what happened before?  I am certain that other people in special police

 7     knew about them ... knew about that conflict, not only Sacic."

 8             Mr. Moric, you have had ample opportunity to tell Mr. Foster if

 9     there was another reason for Mr. Buhin's withdrawal.  You have in fact

10     reiterated that it was a conflict that made you withdraw Mr. Buhin to

11     Zagreb.  And now you are coming out with this new position of rotation.

12             Can you please tell the Trial Chamber - you are under oath - as

13     to what the truth is.

14        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, I could not have discussed organisational and

15     other aspects of work with Mr. Foster, as can you well see from the

16     transcript.  He was solely focused on this, and it is only

17     understandable.

18             Let me repeat, that there were two reasons, namely rotation and

19     conflict of professional opinions.  And I'm telling you this under the

20     solemn declaration that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

21     nothing but the truth.

22        Q.   Isn't it correct, Mr. Buhin [sic], that prior to withdrawing --

23     sorry, Mr. Sacic -- Moric, that prior to withdrawing Mr. Buhin to Zagreb,

24     you telephoned him and told him angrily not to interfere into crime

25     police work.  Isn't that correct?

Page 25775

 1        A.   It is true that I frequently communicated with my men who were in

 2     the area.  There was several reasons for it.  And, on occasion, it had to

 3     do with a specific task.  So I don't rule out the possibility, and I

 4     probably did call Mr. Buhin and tell him, just as I did many times

 5     previously in our cooperation, that he should not encroach upon the

 6     competence of others; namely, the crime police.

 7        Q.   But why were you angry, Mr. Moric?  Mr. Buhin was just trying to

 8     have crime investigated.  Why would you be angry about this?  Because I

 9     can tell you -- I can read back the testimony of Mr. Buhin given in this

10     Court.  His testimony is that you telephoned and angrily told him not to

11     interfere in the matter.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could we first establish what the

13     witness reasons about the time of that telephone conversation.

14             You say you didn't exclude for the possibility that you may have

15     called Mr. Buhin, did you mean to say that that was in relation to the

16     Grubori incident?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember specifically,

18     Your Honour, when it was that I phoned him, and I can therefore not

19     rule out the possibility that it happened at the time when the Grubori

20     incident was topical.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you earlier testified that you couldn't deal

22     with all incidents that happened, so many police people around.  Now,

23     here we find an incident for which, at least evidence was received by

24     this Chamber, for which Mr. Sacic especially travels from Zagreb, which -

25     but please correct me when I'm wrong - would not be the usual thing to do

Page 25776

 1     for whatever incident, would it?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're asking me about

 3     Mr. Sacic's trip?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether that was usual for every incident to

 5     travel a long distance in difficult times.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my experience, I can tell you,

 7     Your Honour, that there were cases whose weight required a trip to be

 8     made.  Now, whether that was a rule in the special police force as well,

 9     I can't tell you that, based on my experience.

10             I think that the size of the problems we were faced with out in

11     the field would warrant trips to be made, and I can tell you that that

12     was true for my sector of the uniformed police, for the sector of the

13     special police, and the crime police.  Now, whether this was, from the

14     perspective of the special police, something that warranted it ...

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Earlier you told us, more or less in between

16     the lines, that so many things happened, that why would this incident or

17     this event, why would you remember anything about it?

18             Now, apparently, the matter was important enough for Mr. Sacic to

19     travel a long distance from Zagreb, to Gracac and Knin.  Which would make

20     it at least not an average event or an average incident, would it?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with that, Your Honour.

22     You can put it that way.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you aware that Mr. Sacic had travelled down?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember,

25     Your Honour, I heard later that he had travelled there.  I didn't know

Page 25777

 1     that he had been sent.  Nobody informed me about that, because there was

 2     no reason to inform me.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you mean to say, is it your testimony that when

 4     Mr. Sacic travelled down and when a dispute arose about whether or not to

 5     immediately investigate, that you were not aware that Mr. Sacic had

 6     travelled down and that this problem had arisen?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is exactly what I wanted

 8     to say.  I was informed about the event, and, later on, I learned that

 9     Mr. Sacic had been there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you been in touch with anyone who was there and

11     involved in this dispute about whether or not to investigate at that very

12     moment?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not in contact with

14     anybody.  I don't remember having been in contact with anybody.  Only

15     later I was in contact with Mr. Buhin, but I don't remember anybody else.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by later, that you were in contact

17     with Mr. Buhin?  What is "later" in this respect?  What day?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant to say was that I am

19     referring to the contact with Mr. Buhin about which Madam Prosecutor

20     asked me.  Two or three days after the event.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You remember that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember that I was in

23     contact with Mr. Buhin.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Just a couple of minutes ago you said that you

25     were not sure whether you had.  It could well be that you would have had

Page 25778

 1     a telephone conversation, but you had no recollection about that.  And

 2     then you were asked whether that was in relation to the Grubori incident.

 3     And you said, Well, maybe, I don't know.  And now, apparently, you have

 4     some recollection.

 5             Could you give us the details of that telephone conversation.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And that apparently is, Ms Mahindaratne, what you

 8     would like to hear from the witness; is that correct?

 9             So give us all details you remember from that telephone

10     conversation.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that I told him like a

12     few times before, in similar situations, to hand the matter over to the

13     crime police, let them do their part of the job.  And I reminded him that

14     he was supposed to return to Zagreb and to be replaced by other people in

15     the -- who were coming to the area.  If I remember properly, those were

16     experts from the ministry dealing with traffic control and border

17     control.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Moric, let me read one of your previous answers.

19     I asked you:

20             "You say you didn't exclude for the possibility that you may have

21     called Mr. Buhin.  Did you mean to say that that was in relation to the

22     Grubori incident?"

23             The answer was:

24             "I can't remember specifically, Your Honour, when it was that I

25     phoned him, and I can therefore not rule out the possibility that it

Page 25779

 1     happened at the time when the Grubori incident was topical."

 2             Now, from your last answers, I take it that it was specifically

 3     on the Grubori incident that you had a telephone conversation with him

 4     after two or three days.

 5             Is that correctly understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for the event in

 7     Grubori, I learnt about it two or three days after the event.  And the

 8     conversation with Mr. Buhin may have taken place even one or two days

 9     later than that, but I can't be sure.  So that conversation may have

10     taken place maybe three to five days after the event, because, as far as

11     I can remember, I learnt about the event a couple of days after it

12     happened.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If, therefore, Mr. Buhin says that it was on the

14     27th of August, you would say that that is not accurate.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my recollection, that

16     conversation should have taken place later.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you inform Mr. Buhin before that he had return

18     to Zagreb, apparently in the context of rotation?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everybody was informed

20     -- informed and Mr. Buhin was also informed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you specifically talk with him about his return

22     soon to Zagreb, in the context of rotation?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Before they were centered

24     there, the head of personnel spoke to everybody and announced that they

25     would be rotated, depending on the scope of problems on the ground and

Page 25780

 1     the requirements for other types of experts.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And in that telephone conversations with Mr. Buhin,

 3     in relation to the Grubori incident, he was, for the first time, informed

 4     specifically that it was now his time to return to Zagreb.

 5             Is that correctly understood?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that I was the one who

 7     told him that for the first time.  However, the head of personnel had

 8     announced that even before.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As you said before, that rotation was

10     depending on the scope of the problems on the ground and the requirement

11     for other types of experts.

12             Was there any schedule put on paper about rotation in advance?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it was the chief of

14     sector who dealt with that, the head of personnel, that is.  And rotation

15     depended on the need for other types of experts and estimates --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, my question was not whether you would repeat

17     the criteria but whether it was put on paper.

18             May I take it from your answer that you're not aware of any

19     rotation scheme put on paper in which Mr. Buhin was expected to return to

20     Zagreb at that moment?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  If there was such a rotation

22     scheme, it was the head of personnel who had it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What, then, were your specific concerns about

24     rotation?  Because you said it was two reasons, whereas, you say the

25     rotation was in the hands of the head of personnel, whereas I understand

Page 25781

 1     you were involved in the conflicting views -- conflicting professional


 3             What was your knowledge, more precisely, on what rotation

 4     required at that very moment?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that at that

 6     time, people who had to be sent to the field were from the sector of

 7     traffic control and border control and some other types of experts and

 8     that I had been informed about that by the head personnel.  And that was

 9     the main motive why Mr. Buhin had to be rotated, as well as the other

10     coordinators after him.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It is not only time for a break, but it is already

12     far beyond the time for a break.

13             Ms. Mahindaratne, the questions I put to the witness should not

14     be understood in any way as that you -- that we would have explored

15     sufficiently.  I leave it entirely to you whether this still needs

16     further attention or not.

17             We will have a break, and we will resume at ten minutes past

18     11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll deal with a few procedural matters at the end

22     of this session, but since Mr. Moric is in the courtroom -- yes,

23     Mr. Mikulicic.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I was just -- I just want to --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 25782

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  I just want to inform the Chamber according to

 2     your request from the beginning of the session that I sent and an e-mail

 3     to Court Officer and to all parties of the case as it refers to our

 4     schedule for the rest of the trial.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a very practical way of resolving the matter.

 6     The other procedural matters, there are two small ones, wait with them

 7     until the end of this session so that Mr. Moric is not -- is not in a

 8     position that he has to listen to all kind of matters which are of no

 9     concern to him.  At least they should not be of any concern to him.

10             Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to continue?

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  May I just a

12     clarification, Mr. President.  At the break, did Your Honour say the

13     questions I put to the witness should not be understood in any way that

14     we have not explored sufficiently?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I would not in any way limit you in exploring the

16     matter, and the fact that I have put some questions in relation to this

17     shouldn't cause to you refrain from any relevant an important matter

18     would you still want to ask him about it or any further details.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.  I understand.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

23        Q.   Mr. Moric, I just have a few questions on that subject we were

24     discussing before I move on.

25             Now, you were asked a question by the Bench, as to whether you

Page 25783

 1     specifically -- let me just -- you were asked:

 2             "And in the telephone conversation with Mr. Buhin in relation to

 3     the Grubori incident, he was, for the first time, informed specifically,

 4     that it was now his time to return to Zagreb."

 5             That is the question from the Bench.  And your answer is:

 6             "I believe that I was the one who told him that for the first

 7     time.  However, the head of personnel had announced that even before."

 8             Now, that wasn't quite exactly an answer to the question.  The

 9     question was, did you inform Mr. Buhin that he had to return to Zagreb in

10     the course of the telephone conversation when you discussed the conflict

11     about the Grubori event, yes or no?

12        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I told him, but that doesn't mean that he had

13     not been aware of that same announcement from before.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Moric, Mr. Buhin testified in these proceedings, and he

15     testified about that telephone call.  And I'm referring to transcript

16     10016.  And this is what he said.  He said -- he was asked about the

17     telephone call and said:

18             "No, ours was a very short conversation.  He" - referring to you

19     - "only angrily told me not to butt in the work of the crime police, but

20     to do my assigned job.  That was the long and the short of our

21     conversation."

22             And then in his statement, P963, page 5 he says:

23             "Eight or ten days after receiving that telephone call from

24     Moric, I was returned to Zagreb.  I was told the reason that I was

25     withdrawn from Knin was that there was no need for two of us to be there.

Page 25784

 1     I do not remember the date that I left Knin.  At any rate, my replacement

 2     arrived before I left.  His name was Mato Markovic, and he was a traffic

 3     expert.  He was there a few days before I left."

 4             So according to Mr. Buhin, you never informed him about his need

 5     to come back to Zagreb in the course of that telephone conversation.  It

 6     was eight or ten days after your telephone conversation with Mr. Buhin

 7     that he was withdrawn, on the basis that there was no need for two people

 8     two police coordinators, in the field.  So how do you reconcile your

 9     testimony that you just gave with what Mr. Buhin told this Trial Chamber?

10        A.   Madam Prosecutor, obviously, after such a long time, we don't

11     remember the events in the same way, and that's the only possible

12     explanation I have.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now when you were questioned by the Bench about rotation,

14     you said the rotation depended on the scope of the problems on the ground

15     and the requirement of other types of experts.  This is at page 35,

16     line 6.

17             And in fact during direct examination and cross-examination

18     during last week, we saw a number of documents which showed that there

19     was a problem of crimes continuing throughout the period until

20     15th September.  Even at the Plitvice meeting, there was a discussion

21     about meetings.

22             Now, Mr. Buhin's area of responsibility was regular police.

23     Wasn't that correct?  As well as traffic regulation, regular police work

24     and traffic regulation.  Isn't that correct?

25        A.   Unfortunately, Madam Prosecutor, you are not right.  The term

Page 25785

 1     regular police, in principle, covers all policing performed in uniform.

 2     However when it comes to the organisation and internal structure of the

 3     regular police, there is policing proper, traffic control, border

 4     control, airport control, and within that organisational structure, there

 5     is a clear definition about the jobs people perform within the sector of

 6     uniformed police.

 7             Mr. Buhin was in the ministry in the Department of Police, not in

 8     the sector of traffic police.  He was, therefore, an expert for the

 9     general state of peace and order and prevention.  He was not an expert in

10     traffic; in other words, at that time, he did not deal in the matters

11     within the purview of the traffic police.

12        Q.   Mr. Moric, Mr. Buhin testified in these proceedings, as I just

13     told you.  And this is at transcript page 9935.  He testified that --

14     that he was responsible for the regular police work and traffic

15     regulation.  But be that as it may, my point is we saw records of

16     situation where there are problems, serious crime being committed on the

17     ground.  So wouldn't you agree with me that this was a time at which you

18     needed personnel of the Ministry of Interior whose expertise in fact were

19     focused on regular police work, that is prevention of -- prevention of

20     crime, and maintenance of law and order?

21             Would you agree with me?

22        A.   Absolutely.  I agree, yes.

23        Q.   So then why withdraw Mr. Buhin whose expertise was in fact

24     prevention of crime and maintenance of law and order and send down an

25     expert in traffic matters?  That doesn't -- almost sound consistent with

Page 25786

 1     what you have been saying all along in this Trial Chamber, which was that

 2     you were short of police resources.  What is the logic behind that act?

 3        A.   There is a very clear logic, Madam Prosecutor.  Last week, when I

 4     was examined by the Defence, we were faced with the facts that spoke

 5     about a very complicated -- the state of security in many other areas of

 6     our country at the time, not only in that area.  And in the area where

 7     Operation Storm had taken place, we obviously needed traffic experts in

 8     the aftermath of Operation Storm.

 9             Mr. Buhin continued to perform his duties within the ministry,

10     once he was withdrawn from Knin, and those duties covered the entire

11     territory of the state.  By doing that, he had just resumed where he had

12     left off before being sent to the Knin area.

13        Q.   Mr. Moric, we saw your order dated 18th August, where you in fact

14     even diverted resources as you said from crime investigation to crime

15     prevention because the need was such.  But here we have a situation, just

16     a week after that, your order, you are sending a police coordinator whom

17     you have initially sent down to the field to assist in the course of

18     prevention of crime back to Zagreb.  That somehow doesn't sound like a

19     sincere effort towards prevention of crime.

20             How do you respond to that?

21        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, you are entitled to doubt the sincerity of the

22     efforts, but we were involved in them on a daily basis.  We needed men in

23     other areas of the country that were also under -- that were under

24     terrorist attacks.

25        Q.   Okay.  Just moving on, before I finish this topic, just one

Page 25787

 1     further question, Mr. Moric.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, I can have D360, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Moric, while the document is coming up -- okay.  We have --

 4             You testified that documents addressed to the OA Povratak staff

 5     would reach you, or if you were not there you would be informed of the

 6     content in principle.

 7             Now this is a report sent to you by --

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if could take the English

 9     document right to the top.

10        Q.   By the Zadar-Knin police administration to you.  It's dated

11     28th August.  And it says:  Subject, report on hygiene and sanitation

12     measures pertaining to dead human bodies is being submitted.

13             And it says that there is attached list.  And if we could move to

14     the next page, thank you, in the Croatian version also.

15             Do you note, Mr. Moric, from number, 301 to 305 - that's five

16     bodies - are the five civilians who were killed in Grubori?  You have in

17     fact received a report on the sanitation on the removal of those bodies.

18             Now, at this stage when you received this report, didn't it occur

19     to you to query as to why there -- you have not received a report on an

20     on-site investigation into the matter, what had happened in this

21     instance?  Didn't it concern you to inquire into this matter, having

22     received a report that five civilians were in fact killed in Grubori?

23        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, as before, when we discussed the conflict of

24     professional opinions on this matter, you now again proceed from the

25     basis that I or we in the police are duty-bound to be suspicious one of

Page 25788

 1     another.  Such rules of mutual suspicion on the police force isn't

 2     something we have or something I have seen in the police systems

 3     worldwide.

 4             Therefore, when I received this report and, by the way, I'm not

 5     sure if I personally gave it any of my associates for consideration, but

 6     when I received it, it was confirmation to me that the system of the

 7     Ministry of the Interior had taken note of the incident and that, as the

 8     law dictates, all the mechanisms of the system would be activated and

 9     that everyone would do their part of the job.

10        Q.   Mr. Moric, what is it -- what is contained in this report apart

11     from the fact that these civilians bodies are buried in Knin cemetery to

12     indicate to you that there has been an investigation, that the other, as

13     to say, the system of the Ministry of Interior had taken note of the

14     incident and the procedure, mechanisms have started working?  What is in

15     this document to indicate that to you?

16        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, excuse me, but when you look at the document,

17     it's quite clear.  I am informed by the police administration of it, and

18     it is the head of the police administration who signed it.  Under the Law

19     on The internal affairs, it is the police administration that is

20     duty-bound to monitor the events, occurrences in its area, and report to

21     the ministry.  And I'm reported to by a person who has had his duties

22     clearly defined by the law.  Why should I be doubting that?

23        Q.   Very well, Mr. Moric, I don't want to spend any further time on

24     this subject.

25             And moving on, I'd like you to look at your statement given to

Page 25789

 1     the OTP.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if I could have, Mr. Registrar, D1842, the

 3     section marked 4893, page 17.

 4        Q.   You discuss -- you discuss the inner control within the Ministry

 5     of Interior.  And this is your testimony:

 6             "Inner control of the Ministry of the Interior dealt with

 7     discipline, disciplinary breaches, and work, whether the work was done

 8     according to the regulations for all members of the Ministry of Interior

 9     from the cleaning lady all the way to the minister, except in cases of

10     special police.  They had their own department of Control."

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if we could move to page 18.

12        Q.   You say:

13             "The way that inner control usually functions is they would

14     receive information, tapes either from citizens or from the colleagues

15     that somebody has done something, and then they would go and

16     investigate [sic]."

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And then if could you move to page 19.

18        Q.   You say:

19             "Whenever I heard of dishonourable behaviour of anyone that falls

20     under my responsibility, whether somebody immediately close or other, any

21     police administration, I would not allow for anybody else but myself ...

22     I would, myself, write to inner control to investigate the [sic] matter."

23             Now just a matter which has not been properly clarified here.

24     Now you say that the special police had their own inner control branch.

25     So in the same way that the inner control of the Ministry of Interior

Page 25790

 1     worked, did the inner control of special police also conduct internal

 2     inquiries into the discipline and conduct of members of the special

 3     police?

 4        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, I think that the branch of the internal control

 5     of the special police had, as far as I remember, the role of gathering

 6     and processing information about discipline in the various units.

 7     However, the issue of disciplinary proceedings, just as was the case with

 8     the internal control at the level of the ministry overall, was not a

 9     matter for the internal control of the ministry overall and therefore, by

10     the same token, either of the -- neither of the internal control of the

11     special police.  It was the chiefs of the police administrations who had

12     to initiate them, and the disciplinary courts as independent judiciary

13     bodies to hear them.

14        Q.   Mr. Moric, I did not about initiating disciplinary proceedings.

15     My question was did the special police inner control branch work in the

16     same manner as the inner control branch of the Ministry of Interior.  I'm

17     talking about -- I'm not asking about initiation of disciplinary

18     proceedings.  Was the task and the responsibility of the inner control of

19     the special police the same vis-a-vis members of special police, police,

20     as was the case with the inner control branch of the Ministry of

21     Interior?

22             Do you understand my question?

23        A.   My apologies, I now understand your question.

24             Yes, my understanding of it is that they gathered information

25     about the state of discipline in special police units.

Page 25791

 1        Q.   Now, why is it -- why did the special police have their own inner

 2     control branch, as opposed to the rest of Ministry of Interior sectors

 3     having a different inner control?

 4        A.   There were two important reasons.

 5             One, of a practical nature.  Unlike all the other employees of a

 6     police administration who were always moving over a certain area and were

 7     subject to public scrutiny, the special police role was quite different.

 8     They were supposed to provide security for various facilities in the face

 9     of violent behaviour, and I think that was one of the criteria.  They

10     were being singled out according to the areas where they were active,

11     where they had to intervene and where they had to train.  It was only

12     logical for them to have their own mechanism of internal control,

13     precisely for that reason.

14             The second reason was that, as far as I know, the personnel, the

15     human resources of the internal control of the special police, was used

16     also to gather information relative to the areas where the special police

17     was likely to operate.  In semi-military or military jargon to make

18     myself quite clear, when they -- their duty was to gather intelligence

19     and counter-intelligence.

20        Q.   Now, if a member of a special police unit attached to a police

21     administration commits a crime in the course of special police duties,

22     and I would be specific, that would be while in the deployment of

23     Operation Storm or in the course of any of the mop-up operations that

24     were carried out after Operation Storm, who had the disciplinary

25     authority to initiate disciplinary proceedings, that is, request for

Page 25792

 1     disciplinary proceedings against such member?  Is it the special police

 2     sector command, or the chief of the police administration?

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Sorry to interrupt my learned colleague.  But the

 4     question was, in effect, ambiguous because my learned colleague in the

 5     first part of the question stated that, if a crime was committed --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne --

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  And in the other part [overlapping speakers]...

 8     about the disciplinary proceedings.  So these are two different things,

 9     which are very much --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Mikulicic, there are two different things.

11     The one is to say the question is ambiguous, and then, of course, the

12     first thing that comes to the mind of Ms. Mahindaratne and to my mind is

13     that you should split up and not, as often happens, put into a question a

14     lot of mixed information, and then, of course, to focus on one thing.

15             The same -- Mr. Mikulicic, that's one thing.

16             The other things is that we should not comment on the question

17     because by saying what is wrong with the question, sometimes you give

18     already a clue to the witness what apparently your concern may be.

19             Therefore, Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please try to avoid

20     questions in which the question in itself contains a lot of different

21     matters and then, at the end, put a question to the witness where he

22     could be confused by all the information you gave in the question.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So would you keep in mind what Mr. Mikulicic said

25     and rephrase your question.

Page 25793

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Moric the Trial Chamber has received evidence that in the

 3     case of a crime committed by a member of the special police, there are

 4     two processes, parallel processes, that take place.  There is crime

 5     investigation by the crime police, and parallel to that disciplinary

 6     proceedings are initiated against him.  That is, he is suspended and

 7     there is an internal disciplinary proceeding against him in the MUP

 8     disciplinary Courts.  Now this Trial Chamber has heard that evidence.

 9             My question is, in such an event, where a member of the special

10     police attached to a unit which is within a police administration - Your

11     Honour, I'm referring to, let us say, a special police unit attached to

12     Zagreb police administration - a member of such, is found to have

13     committed a crime, and he is being investigated by the crime police, who

14     would have the authority to suspend him and initiate disciplinary

15     proceedings against him?  Is it the special police sector command or the

16     chief of the police administration to which the unit is attached?

17        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, I have tried to understand your question.  So a

18     member of the special police has committed a crime, and for this reason,

19     on the one hand, a criminal investigation has been launched, and, on the

20     other he is suspended and disciplinary proceedings is initiated.

21             Is my understanding of that situation correct?

22        Q.   That's correct.  And my question is who has the authority to

23     initiate the disciplinary proceedings against him?  Is it the special

24     police sector command or the chief of the police administration, to which

25     the special police unit is attached?

Page 25794

 1        A.   I'm not a special police expert.  If you -- if you will allow me

 2     to, I'll answer the question the way I'm almost positive the procedure

 3     dictated.

 4             The commander of the unit of that particular member would, in

 5     cooperation with the internal control of the special police, gather all

 6     relevant information for disciplinary proceedings and forward the

 7     information to the person authorised with the power of initiating

 8     disciplinary proceedings, which is the chief of the police administration

 9     to which the special police unit belongs, or, as we call it in our police

10     jargon, the parent police administration.  So the head of that police

11     administration had the power to initiate disciplinary proceedings before

12     a disciplinary Court.

13        Q.   Now didn't Mr. Markac have the power to initiate disciplinary

14     proceedings against a member of a special police unit attached to a

15     police administration if that conduct was -- if the conduct in question

16     was committed in the course of Operation Storm or in the mop-up

17     operations afterwards?

18        A.   Mr. Markac, as well as all the others who belonged to the special

19     police management, could, and was duty-bound, to forward the information

20     he had of a breach of discipline or a crime to the person authorised to

21     initiate disciplinary proceedings, which is the chief of the special --

22     of the police administration, to which the unit belongings.

23        Q.   Mr. Moric, Mr. Cetina, the chief of police administration of

24     Zadar-Knin police administration, testified here, as I told you, and when

25     this question was asked of him, and this is at transcript reference

Page 25795

 1     23593, let me just read this to you.  This is what he said:

 2             "Now isn't it correct that if a member of the special police

 3     forces committed an offence that requests for disciplinary procedures,

 4     initiation of disciplinary had to be made by the commander of the special

 5     police and not yourself?"

 6             His response was:  "Yes, that's how it was."

 7             According to Mr. Cetina, the authority to initiate disciplinary

 8     proceedings was with the commander of the special police sector and not

 9     himself.  So are you -- is your testimony based on knowledge, or were you

10     merely speculating when you said that it was the chief of the police

11     administration?

12        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, I am not speculating.  I don't know why, and I'm

13     even quite puzzled by what Mr. Cetina said.  Perhaps because he was a

14     chief of the police administration with least experience.  But we can

15     check the relevant documents, such as decisions rendered by disciplinary

16     courts, and see that the authority was vested with chiefs of police

17     administrations.  They initiated disciplinary proceedings against all

18     employees of their administration in the first instance.

19        Q.   Okay.  Those documents are in evidence, Mr. Moric, so will not

20     waste time calling them.  But I want to show you a specific document.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have D530.

22        Q.   There was a discussion about who -- which sector within the

23     Ministry of Interior could investigate crime.  And I want to show you

24     this document, Mr. Moric.  And I appreciate you would not have seen this

25     document.  You wouldn't have had the opportunity.

Page 25796

 1             Or have you seen this document before?  Let me just ask you that.

 2     Are you familiar with this document?

 3        A.   Judging by the additional notes, I can't conclude that it has

 4     ever reached me.  I don't remember having seen it.

 5        Q.   Now, this, as you can see, is an order issued by Mr. Markac on

 6     3rd October.  And it's addressed to the special police unit commander of

 7     Zadar special police unit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

 9             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I have to object.  This is not an

10     order.  Never in this document is written that type of text.  So it could

11     be not fair for the witness to present to him the piece of document which

12     is defined as an order.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- this is a document issued by Mr. Markac on

14     the 3rd of October, I take it.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We are all aware that whether a document says order

17     or not, if it says order, it is not necessarily order.  Whether it also

18     works the other way around is still to be established.

19             Please proceed.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Moric, here this document is sent to the chief of the

22     Zadar-Knin police administration personally with the request that it be

23     delivered to the special police unit commander.  And Mr. Markac writes:

24     "The special police sector received an Official Note from Gracac police

25     station which states that on 17 September 1995 four members of the

Page 25797

 1     special police in a vehicle ... were noted in the village of Podkorina -

 2     I'm sorry I can't pronounce that - as they were leaving the site where a

 3     family home and a stable with hay were set on fire.

 4             "We checked and established that the above-mentioned vehicle is

 5     at the disposal of the SJP of the Zadar-Knin police administration."

 6             "In keeping with the above, you are to investigate" --

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   "In keeping with the above you are to investigate the above

 9     claims and submit in writing the results of the investigation to the

10     special police sector."

11             Now in issuing this order, from what you know, Mr. Moric, was

12     Mr. Markac acting within his authority -- sorry, I rephrase, I'm sorry,

13     in issuing this document?

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Sorry to be on my feet again, Your Honour, and my

15     learned colleague.  I think we have problem with -- I have -- I think we

16     have problem of translation in that document.

17             So the word in original "provjera," is basically wrongly

18     translated.  So if we could check what our translator in the courtroom

19     could translate the word "provjera."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just ...  The English -- is it the written

21     translation that you have problems with?

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Written translation, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It is -- yes, apparently what it -- the subject is

24     described as "provjera informacije."

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, and in the beginning of that part of the

Page 25798

 1     document it is translated like verification of information.  And on the

 2     last paragraph of that document, the very same word, "provjera" is

 3     translated as investigation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The same word appears several times.  Let me

 5     just check ...

 6             Now, Ms. Mahindaratne, are you willing to submit this document

 7     specifically for the purpose of the translation of the word "provjera"?

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, it seems that the document tells the

10     special police unit commander what to do and what -- and the results of

11     this activity to be submitted to the special police sector.

12             Do we agree on that, Mr. Mikulicic?

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  We do, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's work on the basis of this wording and

15     let's forget about the details which are still in dispute.

16             Perhaps, Ms. Mahindaratne --

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will rephrase the question, accordingly,

18     Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

21        Q.   Mr. Moric, can you please look at this document and tell the

22     Trial Chamber if, in issuing this document, was Mr. Markac acting within

23     his authority?

24        A.   Madam Prosecutor, this document is in line with what we have

25     spoken about, namely the procedure, when it comes to verifying and

Page 25799

 1     checking information to see if any of the special police has committed a

 2     breach of discipline, the way I understand it is that Mr. Markac received

 3     information based on which he concluded that that could have been the

 4     case and that it could have even been a potential crime and the breach of

 5     discipline and that's why he wanted the information verified and checked

 6     and the verification result to be submitted to him.

 7             I assume that he would then follow the logic of conveying

 8     information further onto the person who would be responsible for starting

 9     criminal proceedings.  In other words, this document was issued by

10     Mr. Markac and sent with the purpose of verifying information.

11        Q.   Now, you have given a lengthy answer to that, Mr. Moric, but you

12     haven't told me what I asked you.

13             Was Mr. Markac acting within his authority when this document was

14     issued?  That was my question.  Yes or no.

15        A.   I believe so, I believe that he was acting within his authority.

16        Q.   If I could have, Mr. Registrar, D531, please.

17             And we will see, Mr. Moric, a document on the screen by which the

18     special police commander of Zadar has responded to this instruction by

19     Mr. Markac, the very next day.  And that's -- he says, report.

20             And he reports that:

21             "Pursuant to request for information verification ... the

22     information was checked out, and it was positively determined that the

23     perpetrator of the arson in the village of Podkorina ... was an officer

24     of the Zadar-Knin police administration special police unit."

25             Now -- and then there is further details about that crime.

Page 25800

 1             Now, the Trial Chamber has received evidence that the special

 2     police was a highly-skilled elite police force.  Apart from the combat

 3     operations they carried out, did they also have the ability to

 4     investigate crime, if necessary?

 5        A.   I apologise, you mean in the same way it would have been done by

 6     the authorised and professional crime police?  In the same way?  You mean

 7     that the -- whether the special police could have done the same as the

 8     crime police?

 9        Q.   No.  Whether the special police had the capacity to verify, let

10     us say, as to whether in fact indeed a member of the unit has committed a

11     crime.  In the manner that has been done in this report, to your

12     knowledge, did they have the competence to do that?  Not legally, but

13     could they do -- carry it out, if necessary?

14        A.   I apologise, does your question refer specifically to the event

15     described in this report?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Madam Prosecutor, we can see in this report that the event was a

18     case of some cattle food being set on fire.  And that fact could be

19     established, it's something that could you see, that you can simply

20     state, that some dry grass burned down.  However, when it comes down to

21     crime investigation, I don't think that the special police was either

22     trained or equipped to do that, nor was it its task.

23        Q.   Mr. Moric, let me move onto another area.  And in fact Mr. Kay

24     went through a series of documents with you on the planning of the

25     operation.

Page 25801

 1             Isn't it correct that prior to the commencement of

 2     Operation Storm you and your colleagues at the Ministry of Interior had

 3     the experience of crimes being committed in the liberated territories

 4     after the previous operations; for example, in operation -- after

 5     Operation Medak and Operation Flash?

 6        A.   We had experience, or, rather, experiences that taught us that

 7     there were different problems and that we were able to face all sorts of

 8     crimes that we were -- potentially or looking at facing all sorts of

 9     crimes.

10        Q.   Now, those crimes that were committed in Operation Medak and

11     Flash, to your knowledge, were they investigated?

12        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I believe that this is a generally known fact.

13     People have been sentenced for crimes committed in the territory of

14     Medak, and they're still serving those sentences.

15        Q.   Mr. Moric, I'd like you to look at what you told the Office of

16     the Prosecutor, which is in evidence, your statement, D1842, and if could

17     you turn to the second section.  Not the one that you're looking,

18     Mr. Moric, at now.  The second section, the middle one.  That's section

19     4893, page 53.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, did I understand you well that the

21     previous document about the investigation of the haystack put on fire of

22     -- or -- you just focus on the investigation.  You did not want to pay

23     any further attention to the measures taken as a result?  Which is fine,

24     but I just want to know whether you want to limit what you put to this

25     witness to the investigations, rather than to the measures that were

Page 25802

 1     taken, such as the removed from duty and cut in salary, that's not

 2     something you --

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  I didn't need to go into

 4     that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 7        Q.   If could you focus on page 53, Mr. Moric.

 8             Now, you were in fact asked whether you knew about -- this is the

 9     question:

10             "You mentioned that you were aware of some problems.  Were you

11     aware of any, let us say, military personnel, having been prosecuted for

12     any crimes during that period?"

13             This is with regard to the previous operations.  The question you

14     just answered.

15             This is your response:

16             "I do not know if anybody was processed for the crimes [sic].

17     What I know that there were problems and that they were reported.

18     Whether or not they were investigated by the investigative judge and ...

19     whether or not these investigations resulted in indictments ... or if

20     somebody was charged with any of these [sic] crimes, I do not know.  I do

21     not know that."

22             Now you just told in Court the exact opposite.  How do you

23     reconcile your testimony?

24        A.   Does this refer to the document you're showing me?  And does that

25     all that refer to the territory of Medak?

Page 25803

 1        Q.   Mr. Moric, I asked you if you were aware that the crimes

 2     committed in the previous operations were investigated, and you answered,

 3     this was your answer:

 4             "Madam Prosecutor I believe that this is a generally known fact.

 5     People have been sentenced for crimes committed in the territory of

 6     Medak, and they're still serving those sentences."

 7             Now you were asked about questions -- about crimes committed in

 8     the previous -- let me first ask you one further question.

 9             Do you know if the crimes committed in Operation Flash, whether

10     they were investigated?

11        A.   Crime investigation after that, an investigation, you know, that

12     was not my job.  At that time, it was not part of my duties no know

13     whether such investigations were carried out or not.  That's why I asked

14     you just a minute ago with the way I spoke to Mr. Foster, with regard to

15     Medak Pocket, I answered Mr. Foster's questions, and I told him what I

16     knew at the time, when things were actually happening.  The perspective

17     is different, and hence, the difference in the answers I provided to

18     Mr. Foster, as opposed to the answers I'm providing to you today.

19        Q.   Let's move away from perspective, Mr. Moric.  Let me ask you a

20     clear question.

21             Are you aware if the crimes committed in Operation Medak and

22     Operation Flash were investigated?  Do you know, to your knowledge, if

23     they were investigated or not?  Yes or no.

24        A.   From the media, yes.

25        Q.   Now, you were -- you were -- you were the assistant minister of

Page 25804

 1     interior.  Wouldn't you know if crimes were investigated or not, because

 2     if there was an investigation, fundamental police would be involved in

 3     the -- the on-site investigations.  Isn't that correct?

 4        A.   Madam Prosecutor, at the level of the Ministry of the Interior,

 5     we followed trends.  We did not analyse any concrete and specific cases.

 6     That would have been contrary to the law.  We never dwelled upon the

 7     concrete proceedings in certain cases.  There were teams of experts in

 8     charge of dealing with every single concrete case.  That was their job.

 9        Q.   If I understand your testimony, Mr. Moric, in your position as

10     assistant minister of interior, because you followed trends, you would

11     not know -- you would not be in a position to say if crimes were

12     investigated or not.

13             Is that what you're saying?

14             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I hate to interrupt.  Are

15     we talking about Operation Flash?

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  We're talking about Operation Medak and

17     Operation Flash.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I refer my learned friend to page 51 of 4893,

19     line 12.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, for the later transcript I usually have

21     the pages attached to it.  Could you give me a date, then so that I'm at

22     least in the right transcript.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  It is on the screen now.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, you said 489...

25             MR. KEHOE:  165 in e-court.

Page 25805

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  165.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  It's exhibit 1842 which is on -- D1842 which is on

 3     the screen.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I have found it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I -- yes, I should I -- I was thinking in terms

 6     of transcript pages, rather than -- I do understand you said page 51 of

 7     -- yes, now I just misunderstood.  It was my mistake.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Moric, this is what you have said in relation to crimes

11     committed in Operation Flash, and this is at page 51 of your transcript,

12     if you turn to the previous page.  You say:

13             "Were you aware in your position as assistant minister and your

14     subsequent negotiations of any crimes being committed by Croatian

15     military?"

16             You say:  "Where?"

17             And this is page 51.

18             "In Sector West.  That's during and after Operation Flash itself.

19     Yes, I heard about, I heard that there were problems.  I heard that there

20     were some suspicious deaths, and I know that crime police investigated

21     it.  An investigation of those crimes would be -- the detail of these

22     investigations would kept where?"

23             And there is a discussion about that.

24             And at page 53, Mr. Moric, you are asked again:

25             "You mentioned that you were aware of some problems.  Were you

Page 25806

 1     aware of any, let us say, military personnel having been prosecuted for

 2     any crimes during that period?"

 3             Your responses is:

 4             "I do not know if anybody was processed for the crime.  What I

 5     know ... there were problems and that they were reported.  Whether or not

 6     they were investigated by the investigative judge and ... whether or not

 7     these investigations resulted in indictments ... if somebody was charged

 8     with any of these [sic] crimes, I do not know.  I do not know that."

 9             Now, the question was asked from you as to -- as to -- as

10     assistant minister of the interior if you are aware as to whether crimes

11     committed by military personnel during Operation Flash were processed and

12     whether anyone was charged.  You have said that you were aware that crime

13     police investigated it, but are you not aware as to if anyone was charged

14     or not.

15             Now, how is it, Mr. Moric, that you're holding a very senior

16     position in the Ministry of Interior that you're not able to say if

17     anyone was charged for crimes committed in Operation Flash or not?  You

18     were the assistant minister of uniformed police at the time.

19        A.   Madam Prosecutor, it is correct that I was the assistant minister

20     in charge of uniformed police and prevention.  I was not in charge of

21     crime police and crime investigation, detecting crimes.  In principle,

22     everybody did their own job.  I managed the work of the uniformed police,

23     and I had a colleague who was in charge of managing the work of the crime

24     police.

25             Of course, in day-to-day operations, we meet on a daily basis and

Page 25807

 1     exchange information in order to be able to monitor trends.  And I knew,

 2     based on that information, that there had been some suspicious deaths and

 3     that the crime police would get involved and try to elucidate those

 4     suspicious deaths.  It is only logical that, at the time, when Mr. Foster

 5     and I spoke, I didn't know whether that would result in any indictments

 6     or charges being brought against certain individuals and their

 7     sentencing.

 8             In addition to that, Madam Prosecutor, I was a member of the

 9     executive power, and tripartite division of power is very well known.

10     Judiciary is independent, and they don't have to inform us as to what

11     they do.  That's why I told you that from public sources of information I

12     learned that people had been sentenced for crimes committed in the

13     territory of Medak.

14        Q.   Mr. Moric, you were interviewed by Mr. Foster in 2004.  So if

15     anyone was to be charged for crimes committed in Operation Flash which

16     was May 1995, by that time, if you were going to get such information,

17     you would have known that, wouldn't it?  I say that because you said by

18     the time -- at the time I spoke with Mr. Foster, you didn't know if

19     people were going to be indicted or not.

20        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, I said something that was even more precise than

21     that.

22             At the time of my discussions with Mr. Foster concerning the

23     time-period we discussed, and that was the period of Operation Flash, we

24     spoke of 1995, and, unfortunately, this is the period under discussion

25     today as well.

Page 25808

 1             However, the crime police was not duty-bound in specific matters

 2     to inform the assistant minister in charge of the uniformed police of

 3     their activities.  In fact the key report on the work of the crime police

 4     can be found in the criminal reports that the -- the crime police files

 5     through -- to -- to the competent prosecutor.

 6        Q.   So based on what you just said, Mr. Moric, then it would be

 7     correct to assume - and you can correct me if I'm wrong - that you would

 8     not be a position to say as to if people -- if anybody was charged for

 9     crimes committed in Operation Storm either.  Isn't it?

10        A.   In Operation Storm?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   We spoke of Operation Flash a moment ago.

13        Q.   That's what I'm saying.  Based on what you said, you said that

14     the crime police was not bound to inform you.  You didn't get this

15     information because you were in charge of uniformed police, and as such

16     you are not in a position to say as to -- if people had been investigated

17     and if people had been charged after Operation Flash.  If that's the

18     case, the same principle would apply in relation to Operation Storm.

19     Isn't that right, Mr. Moric?  You would not be in a position then to tell

20     this Trial Chamber if persons were indeed properly investigated and

21     charged in relation to crimes committed in Operation Storm.  Because the

22     same level of information that you received in relation to

23     Operation Flash would apply here, in relation to Operation Storm.

24        A.   Yes, correct, Mrs. Prosecutor.  This follows from the way in

25     which the Ministry of the Interior was organised and the way in which it

Page 25809

 1     worked, as provided for by the relevant decree.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I'm told that it is time for a

 3     break.  This would be a good time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know who told you.  But it is certainly

 5     approximately -- I would, however, deal with two minor procedural

 6     matters, but we don't need Mr. Moric for that.

 7             Mr. Moric, if you could already follow -- we would like to see

 8     you -- the usher, then we would like to see you back in 20 to 25 minutes

 9     from now.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, first of all, thank you for sending

12     your e-mail which certainly is helpful for the Chamber.

13             When we invited you, we also invited the Prosecution to tell us

14     about any developed plans for calling rebuttal evidence.

15             Mr. Waespi could you inform the Chamber about that.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  We have no plans to call any rebuttal

17     witnesses at this point in time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  At this point in time.  Thank you for that.

19             Then there was a translation issue in relation to P27 -- 2678.  I

20     think you raised it, Mr. Misetic.  It was Mr. Carrier who introduced the

21     document, and I think the Prosecution was invited to check the

22     translation of that document.

23             Any report on that?

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just report as soon after

25     the break.

Page 25810

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You may do so.

 2             Then, finally, there is a request pending for adding two

 3     witnesses to your 65 ter list.  One of them being Witness MM-026, which

 4     is the witness scheduled first in the first week of January,

 5     Mr. Mikulicic.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  That is correct Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now the Chamber was about to finalize a decision on

 8     the matter, but a filing of last Friday, because the two witnesses you

 9     are seeking leave to be added to your 65 ter list, your filing of last

10     Friday doesn't deal in any way with Witness MM-026, as you have called

11     her, however, the Chamber is not in a position at this moment to deliver

12     its written decision on the matter, because the filing of last Friday

13     complicates at least the other part, that is MM-027.

14             Now we thought that it was urgent for you to know whether we

15     would at least grant the request in relation to Witness MM-026 because

16     she was scheduled for later in December.  Now she has been moved to early

17     January.  At the same time, you announce that perhaps one of the

18     witnesses in the week of the 14th to the 18th of December might not be

19     available.  So not knowing whether you would like to fill that gap with

20     Witness MM-026, the Chamber considers it wise already to inform you about

21     the decision, that leave is granted to add Witness MM-026 to your 65 ter

22     list.

23             I've got no idea whether there are any request for protective

24     measures, that's the reason I'm using -- not.  Then we are talking about

25     Snjezana Bagic.

Page 25811

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But I'm afraid that witness -- the number MM-026 has

 3     already been assigned earlier to another witness, so I would -- I would

 4     invite you to -- to assign another number to Snjezana Bagic, and where I

 5     earlier said that leave is granted to add Witness MM-026, I'm now more

 6     precise and saying that leave is granted to add Snjezana Bagic to your

 7     65 ter list, although another MM number --

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  It will be MM-028 Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Twenty-eight.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  And just to inform you, as we put Ms. Bagic to

11     testify on the first week of January, in our schedule it was done with

12     exchange of consultation with my learned colleague Mr. Waespi, and that's

13     for -- that's we moved her on the beginning of the next year.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that that has got something do with

15     availability of expert knowledge in the Prosecution team on the matter

16     Witness Bagic will testify about?

17             MR. WAESPI:  This is correct, Mr. President.

18             And in addition to what's being said right now, I would like to

19     inform that you we would like to respond or to reply to the response by

20     the Markac Defence on the second expert.  I forgot the number.  I think

21     it is Witness 27 to be added.  I believe we have 14 days or something,

22     but we will certainly respond by Wednesday or Thursday.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has received this filing, and the

24     Chamber will consider how to proceed with that, but does not obstruct you

25     at this moment from preparing a further submission.  Although there is no

Page 25812

 1     commitment by the Chamber at this moment that this is the by receiving

 2     further submissions that that's how we want to deal with the matter.

 3             It's fresh.  It arrived, I think, two minutes to 4.00 on Friday.

 4     We have looked at it over the weekend and this morning.  We will further

 5     consider that matter as soon as possible.

 6             These were the procedural matters I had on my list.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just to stress the point that

 8     the leave from my learned colleague to reply would be in fact surreply to

 9     response to reply.  So just --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But at least Mr. Waespi indicates that everything

11     will be done within the time-limits that's already -- in this context --

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  That will be helpful of course.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that's something new at all.

14             We will -- it was clear, Mr. Mikulicic, where we are with this --

15     with this witness who is an expert witness.

16             We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 1.00 sharp.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I took a risk by saying sharp.

21             This is not to -- to be interpreted that "sharp" is ten minutes

22     after the time indicated.  The Chamber apologises, but we had urgent

23     matters to deal with, which took more time than expected.

24             Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to continue?

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

Page 25813

 1             Mr. Registrar, may I have D409, please.

 2        Q.   Mr. Moric, I'm going to call up some documents that we have

 3     already looked at.  And this is in relation to --

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, if you could go to the Croatian page 4,

 5     and the English page 5, I would be grateful, Mr. Registrar.

 6        Q.   We already looked at this document, Mr. Moric.  This is the

 7     meeting on 2nd August, where you met with the -- with your minister,

 8     Mr. Jarnjak, and the minister of defence, Mr. Susak.

 9             Now can you tell the Trial Chamber at these meetings, was there a

10     discussion about crimes committed in the previous operations,

11     particularly in Operation Flash?

12        A.   Excuse me, but may I, before answering your question, see the

13     list of attendees?

14        Q.   I'm referring to the meeting at 7.30 where the minister -- it's

15     right in front of your screen, Mr. Moric --

16             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, it's 1730.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, 1730.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You misspoke.  Yes.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm referring to the meeting at 1730 where the

20     minister of defence, the minister of interior, and yourself, you met,

21     which is right in front of your --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We see it in English, but Mr. Moric could not yet

23     see it in the B/C/S version.  He now can.  You see it at the bottom of

24     the page, Mr. Moric?  Yes?

25             Please proceed.

Page 25814

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 2        Q.   Was it just the three of you who met, or were there other people

 3     at this meeting?

 4        A.   Could I see the rest of the document?  To see if there was anyone

 5     else present.

 6        Q.   Yes, of course.  We could go do the next page.  But don't you

 7     recall that meeting?  You already spoke about it during Mr. Kay's

 8     examination.

 9        A.   No.  It's just that I would like to see precisely what the

10     document states.

11             You asked me if there were other persons in attendance at the

12     meeting.

13        Q.   No, I only asked that in response to when you raised it.  My

14     question was really was in relation to this meeting:  Were crimes

15     committed in previous operations, specifically in Operation Flash,

16     discussed at this meeting, between Minister Jarnjak, Minister Susak, and

17     yourself?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  I just -- I rise with this particular

21     document being shown to the witness, and we had some questions go back

22     and forth.  But if the witness can be informed what this document is that

23     is he being -- that he is looking at.

24             I can advise the Court what it is, but I'm sure counsel knows

25     what it is as well.

Page 25815

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Ms. Mahindaratne, you refer to the fact that the witness, that

 3     questions were put in relation to the witness.  But if in half a line you

 4     could say this the meeting, then the day, 2nd of August, because that

 5     seems to be the date --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  But it goes to the question of the number of

 7     attendees and this came in --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne understands that she is briefly in

 9     half a line, to introduce the meeting to the witness so that he is better

10     able to orient himself.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

13        Q.   Mr. Moric, we in fact discussed this during Mr. Kay's examination

14     with you.  You recall there was a meeting on 2nd August between

15     Mr. Susak, the defence minister, Mr. Jarnjak, minister of the interior,

16     and yourself, which took place at 1730.  This document is the minutes of

17     that meeting.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I object, Mr. President.  That is not the minutes of

19     the meeting.  These are -- General Lausic's notes of that meeting to

20     which he attended.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.  My apologies.  I

23     should have specifically said.  I actually forgot, Mr. President, that

24     was the reason.  My apologies.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 25816

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 2        Q.   This is not official minutes, Mr. Moric, I should have mentioned

 3     that.  This is General Lausic extract of his diary.

 4             Now, do you -- you recall this meeting.  You didn't have a

 5     problem about this when, in fact, when Mr. Kay examined you on this

 6     document.

 7        A.   I remember the meeting but, excuse me, I was puzzled by the

 8     mention of the minutes, because I don't recall the minutes, and that's

 9     why I asked to see who was present in order to be able to think back

10     within that context.

11        Q.   My apologies, my mistake.  Now you now exactly what this document

12     is.

13             Now, I'm going to the meeting.  My question to you is, at this

14     meeting -- and we don't have to focus on this document for it.  At this

15     meeting, were crimes committed in the previous operations,

16     Operation Medak, and specifically Operation Flash, discussed between

17     Mr. Susak, Mr. Jarnjak, and yourself?  That's my question.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Once again, if I could just put it this in context,

19     Mr. President.  General Lausic is there.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I don't think this should be

21     discussed in the presence of the witness if Mr. Kehoe is going to --

22             MR. KEHOE:  I think that the document should be accurately

23     presented to the witness that these are notes taken by General Lausic at

24     this meeting.  And if that's what this -- has been discussed throughout

25     this trial.

Page 25817

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Ms. Mahindaratne, do you agree that these are the notes taken by

 3     Mr. Lausic?

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Absolutely, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then why not --

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I said that to the witness.  I don't know why

 7     Mr. Kehoe --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see what exactly you said.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  If we can look page 70, line 18.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm -- as a matter of fact, we should stop these

11     kind of discussions.  These are the notes made by Mr. Lausic on that

12     meeting.  Please put your question, preferably a question without too

13     many further introductions.  I think --

14             The question was whether you remember, that at this meeting,

15     crimes committed during Operation Flash were discussed, yes or no.  Could

16     you tell us.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I recall that we

18     discussed the matter as a problem that we were faced with, and that

19     should not be repeated.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Place your next question, Ms. Mahindaratne.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   At that meeting, was it discussed that the crimes were committed

23     in -- that the crimes that were committed in Operation Flash were

24     committed by military personnel?  Was that fact discussed?

25        A.   No.  We discussed about -- the problem as a problem that existed,

Page 25818

 1     regardless of who committed it.  Unfortunately, there were crimes

 2     committed by both civilians and soldiers, or individuals in uniforms.

 3     Our discussions were of a general nature.

 4        Q.   Now, is it correct that this meeting was conducted for purposes

 5     of planning the policing of the liberated territory; is that right?

 6        A.   Mrs. Prosecutor, unfortunately, that's not true.  The ministers

 7     of defence and internal affairs are not the ones that are competent for

 8     this sort of planning.  This was a general meeting, at which the

 9     ministers cautioned about the problem that we had earlier on, and the

10     fact that Mr. Lausic and I were supposed to be in charge of the whole

11     matter at the operative level in such a way as to prevent such crimes

12     committed and, if that should prove possible, to reduce them to the

13     minimum.

14        Q.   Now, your testimony is that at this meeting, you said we

15     discussed about the problem as a problem that existed regardless of who

16     committed it.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what exactly was discussed

17     in terms of the crimes at this meeting, without just saying to generally

18     discuss, can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the -- the line of the

19     conversation?  Was it stated that crimes could be committed again after

20     Operation Storm because the same thing had happened in Operation Flash?

21        A.   Ms. Prosecutor, at the ministerial level, this was roughly how

22     matters stood.  The ministers would refer to a problem and present a

23     position on it.  They do not go into analysing or planning operative

24     procedures --

25        Q.   Mr. Moric, if I could interrupt.

Page 25819

 1        A.   But if you insist I could --

 2        Q.   I'm not asking you as to how the ministers generally do it --

 3     speak.  But my question is, you were present at this meeting.  Can you

 4     please tell the Trial Chamber what exactly was stated with regard to

 5     crimes committed in previous operations.  Was it said that the same thing

 6     could happen after Operation Storm?  That's my question.

 7        A.   Yes.  It was said that we might have these problems all over

 8     again and that we should get organised in such a way as to make sure that

 9     they do not occur or that they occur as few and far between and possible.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, if the witness has told us that

11     they discussed that they should not be repeated, would that not

12     automatically include that you considered the possibility that it would

13     happen again?  Otherwise, there's no need, is there, to discuss that it

14     should not happen again.

15             So, therefore, that is part of the answer which -- I do not

16     understand what then the -- what you're seeking to establish.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Very well, Mr. President.  I will just go to

18     the next question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

21        Q.   Now, was it discussed at this meeting that in Operation Flash,

22     there was a problem about the military police cooperating with the

23     Ministry of Interior forces in addressing crimes committed by military

24     personnel?  Was that discussed at this meeting?

25        A.   Unfortunately, I cannot confirm this with any certainty.  I do

Page 25820

 1     not rule out the possibility that this was discussed too.  It's just that

 2     I can't be certain that this was discussed.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Looking at Mr. Lausic's notes here, if you could focus on

 4     what the minister of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, had stated.  He writes:

 5     "It cannot be the same model as Operation Flash as more places will be

 6     occupied.  The military police follow the front line and the civilian

 7     police enter populated areas."

 8             And the third point is:

 9             "Shutting down of catering establishments within a 50-kilometre

10     range from a place ordered by government."

11             Is that a reference to shutting down establishments where alcohol

12     was being served?  Is that a reference from your recollection; could you

13     say?

14        A.   Frankly, I don't recall the topic as noted down by Mr. Lausic, as

15     having been discussed at the meeting.  However, based on the formulation

16     here and based on my police experience, I can state that this referred to

17     catering establishments because that was where large groups of people

18     normally gather and they might be at risk of artillery fire or

19     multi-barrel rocket-launcher fire from occupied areas.

20        Q.   The fourth point is:

21             "Introduction of curfew."  And it says, "Karlovac, Sisak, Gospic,

22     Zadar, Sibenik."

23             Now after Operation Storm, the initial attack was completed, was

24     a curfew imposed?

25        A.   I don't remember, but I don't think so.

Page 25821

 1        Q.   Was it that every contemplated, Mr. Moric, for instance when the

 2     Ministry of Interior faced problems in controlling the crimes?  Was that

 3     ever contemplated, Mr. Moric, when, for instance, the Ministry of

 4     Interior faced problems in controlling the crimes?  Was it ever

 5     contemplated, perhaps a curfew, imposing a curfew might help the Ministry

 6     of Interior to bring the territory under control?

 7        A.   My associates and lower level teams of specialists contemplated

 8     this idea, but, in this particular problem, as was the case with others,

 9     too, there was a discrepancy between the peacetime mechanism of activity

10     and wartime circumstances, and one always had to find this fine line in

11     the restriction of movement of citizens at large.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Moric, we heard on a number of occasions you said --

13     told the Trial Chamber how it was difficult to control the situation.

14             Now, understandably, this is wartime.  But what was the

15     difficulty in imposing a curfew to enable the law enforcement forces to

16     address the situation more fully or better?  What was the problem that

17     you had?

18        A.   The problem was in the concept of a democratic and civic state.

19     In an area that was occupied a day or two previously, should the same or

20     similar state of affairs be introduced, and, thus, shutting it out of any

21     normal activity.  The idea was to normalize the situation.

22             In practical terms, had we, over such a vast territory,

23     introduced or imposed a curfew, we would have difficulties in

24     implementing this measure alone.  Last week, we mentioned the 11.000

25     square kilometres, numerous local and dirt roads.  With a curfew imposed,

Page 25822

 1     the job would have been practically impossible to carry out, if the

 2     police had to patrol the area for persons who were in breach of curfew

 3     and concentrate on these matters.

 4        Q.   Let me call --

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have D45, please.

 6        Q.   And you will see in a moment, Mr. Moric, that will be official

 7     minutes of your working meeting with the military police administration

 8     officials on 3rd August.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if you could go to -- in English page 4,

10     Mr. Registrar, and Croatian page 2.

11        Q.   There, in the English page, the last page, and in the Croatian,

12     if could you move to the next page, please.

13             This refers to a statement you made at that meeting, Mr. Moric.

14     This is what you say:

15             "He further said that ... in Western Slavonia he had noticed

16     activities of loose cannons, persons who did not take part in combat

17     activities but were spotted in the area of the front line wearing HV

18     uniforms, raiding houses and 'administering rough justice.'  He also

19     pointed out that occurrences of abuse of MUP uniforms had been noticed,

20     namely four persons were found.  They are in MUP uniforms.  And only

21     later it turned out that they were SIS employees."

22             Now, earlier on, you told the Trial Chamber that you had no

23     information of the investigations or charges processed against crimes

24     committed in Operation Flash.  So if you didn't have that information,

25     how were you then able to describe the categories of perpetrators and to

Page 25823

 1     say that some were wearing HV uniforms and some were not taking part in

 2     combat activities, they were loose cannons, I mean how were you able to

 3     give this type of description if in fact you had no information on the

 4     investigations conducted into those crimes?

 5        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I didn't say that I didn't have any information

 6     at all.  I told you that we were well-informed about trends and that we

 7     monitored trends.

 8             It is true that I was never informed about any investigations in

 9     any particular cases, because that was not a subject of my interest and

10     that was also not my responsibility.  In other words, I was only informed

11     about trends.  And here we're talking about loose cannons, and that was

12     one of the trends recorded at the time.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If you could move to the next page in the

14     English document.  And the Croatian, we can remain on the same page.

15        Q.   There's report on what Major-General Lausic had said.  He said:

16             "He said in his introductory address that the meeting of

17     ministers which had been held the previous day as well as a meeting of

18     the highest officials an officers of the HV held in the war room of the

19     Ministry of Defence had, among others, rendered the military police and

20     the MUP responsible for complete efficiency in carrying out tasks during

21     combat activities of the HVO.  He also pointed out that the commanders of

22     the HV units were warned that they would be personally responsible for

23     the discipline of their subordinates.  Otherwise, not even a much larger

24     number of the military police force would be able to secure discipline?"

25             Do you recall General Lausic making that statement at this

Page 25824

 1     meeting?  This is the working meeting on 3rd August.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I think if we look at the

 3     -- I apologise.  If we look at the Croatian, I believe that line should

 4     be HV and not HVO, if we look at the original, Mr. President.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, you're right.  Thanks, Mr. Kehoe.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you then invite the witness to -- to

 7     answer the question but then the right version which is in his own

 8     language.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

10        Q.   You could read, Mr. Moric, General Lausic's statement there in

11     Croatian and tell me if you recall that statement being made at that

12     meeting.

13        A.   I apologise, Madam Prosecutor.  In this document, Mr. Lausic

14     mentions two meetings from the day before.  He says that there were two

15     meetings the day before.  The first one was a meeting of the ministers of

16     defence and the interior, and then, a meeting of the top officials and

17     officers of the Croatian Army.

18             As far as I can remember, the second meeting of the top officials

19     and officers of the Croatian Army which could include what is mentioned

20     in here is the meeting that I didn't attend, and I wouldn't know whether

21     Mr. Lausic spoke about that or not.

22        Q.   You misunderstood, Mr. Moric.  My question was: At this meeting,

23     this minute says that General Lausic said at the third meeting that, At

24     the previous meeting such and such was discussed.  I'm not asking about

25     whether General Lausic said anything of this sort at the previous

Page 25825

 1     meeting.  My question is at the working meeting on 3rd with the minister

 2     of the interior officers, including your yourself, do you recall

 3     General Lausic making a statement that at the previous meeting, this

 4     statement had been made.  That is my question.

 5        A.   I apologise for having misunderstood you the first time around.

 6     I don't remember him saying that.  However, I don't have any reason to

 7     doubt the document which says that he did say that.  I can only believe

 8     that he did.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if we could just move, Mr. Registrar, to

10     page 7.

11        Q.   There, page 7 of the English, and in the Croatian it's page 4.

12     There you are -- Major Lausic saying this:

13             "He informed those present about the order issued by the Minister

14     of Defence according to which the only persons allowed to enter the area

15     of combat activities would be those having a permission signed by the

16     assistant minister, Brigadier Markica Rebic, and by the chief of the

17     political administration, Major-General Ivan Tolj."

18             And then he goes on to say:

19             "With regard to the meetings, he informed those present about the

20     order according to which every visit by foreign citizens would be

21     registered in the form about which the SIS would be informed."

22             You go on to say:

23             "The Assistant Minister Josko Moric announced that entries and

24     exits of towns were going to be secured, as part of the MUP

25     preparations."

Page 25826

 1             Now, those passes that General Lausic refers to, for how long did

 2     those -- did they operate or were they valid after the liberation of the

 3     territory?

 4        A.   Madam Prosecutor, this document says that they were applicable to

 5     the area where there was combat going on.  So it is only logical that

 6     they were valid for as long as combat was going on, and as soon as the

 7     combat was over, there was no need to have them in place.

 8        Q.   When you say it's logical, to your knowledge, do you know a

 9     particular point at which these passes were not required for people to

10     enter the combat territory?

11             What is your knowledge, Mr. Moric, on this issue?  I'm not asking

12     you to tell what's logical.

13        A.   Madam Prosecutor, I really don't remember that we ever had any

14     problem with this.  This was public knowledge.  I don't know for how long

15     the passes were valid or that we had any problem with them.

16        Q.   Now, according to what you said at this meeting, the fundamental

17     police were to secure the entries and exits of towns.  Was that done?

18     Did you implement that order -- did you implement that plan?

19        A.   Yes.  We could see that from some of the documents presented last

20     week work orders issued to commanders and police officers, and their

21     reports speaking about checks that they performed at the exits and

22     entrances into the town.

23        Q.   Now, in addition to that, isn't it correct that you also issued

24     an order to close down the roads to civilian traffic, as of 3.00 a.m. on

25     4th August?  And if you want to, I can also show you your order.

Page 25827

 1        A.   Could you, please.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if we could have D --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do that, Ms. Mahindaratne, I'm looking at

 4     the clock.  It is quarter to 2.  If we start now discussing a new

 5     document, and I take it that you have a few questions for the witness on

 6     that, then I'd rather first now adjourn so that we can continue tomorrow.

 7             Could I ask you, are you on schedule?  You said you expected less

 8     than the six.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, I wouldn't go -- I

10     certainly won't go beyond six, but I expected only about five, perhaps

11     going a little over.  At this stage, it's difficult for me to say if I

12     would go to the sixth session, but certainly five session, which would

13     mean by the second session tomorrow, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you could try to elicit the evidence as

15     focused as possible, that would save time.

16             Mr. Moric, you receive the same instructions that you received

17     before, that is, that you should not speak with anyone about your

18     testimony, testimony already given today or last week, or testimony still

19     to be given.  And we'd like to see you back tomorrow at 9.00, because we

20     adjourn, and we will resume, Tuesday, the 8th of December, at 9.00 in

21     Courtroom I.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of

24                           December, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.