Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27402

 1                           Thursday, 4 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is case number IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus

 9     Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we hear the testimony of the next witness, a few

12     procedural matters.

13             Mr. Carrier, we tried to find out whether there were any

14     protective measures sought, and I'm also addressing the Defence.

15     Apparently, there's no request for protective measures for the next

16     witness.

17             Then the second item:  I'd like to put on the record that on the

18     25th of February, Chamber staff has informed the parties by e-mail of the

19     intended scope of the examination-in-chief of Witness Juric.  The e-mail

20     reads, in the relevant parts, as follows:

21             "First, the Chamber intends to question Witness CW-2," as he was

22     still called then, "about his role in Sector South between approximately

23     the 3rd and the 13th of August, 1995.  The Chamber may ask the witness

24     specific questions concerning his appointment and authority.

25             "Second, the Chamber intends to question Witness CW-2 about his

Page 27403

 1     knowledge and sources of his knowledge of events on the ground in the

 2     context of the reporting system.

 3             "Third, the Chamber intends to question Witness CW-2 on some

 4     aspects of the relation of the military police with other civilian and

 5     military authorities, including the Special Police.  The Chamber does not

 6     intend to examine Witness CW-2 on the functioning and structure of the

 7     military police in general, other than stated above."

 8             I move on to the next issue.

 9             On the 4th of February, 2010, the Gotovina Defence filed a

10     stipulation to portions of the Prosecution's pre-trial brief in which the

11     Gotovina Defence stipulated to paragraphs 105 to 108 of the OTP's

12     pre-trial brief, except to the second sentence of paragraph 105, to the

13     extent it implies that the armed conflict in 1991 was initiated by the

14     Croatian government.  On the 26th of February, the Cermak Defence joined

15     the stipulation, which is found at transcript page 27.399.

16             On the 28th of February, the Markac Defence informally informed

17     the Chamber that it would not join the above-mentioned stipulation due to

18     its position that the armed conflict within the territorial scope of the

19     indictment ceased on or about the 8th of August, 1995.  The Trial Chamber

20     wanted this to be put on the record and asks the Markac Defence whether

21     it joins the stipulation, except insofar as it implies that the armed

22     conflict continued beyond the 8th of August.

23             Mr. Mikulicic, I'm addressing you, because it seems that the

24     Markac Defence main concern is whether the mop-up operations are still

25     part of the armed conflict.  Therefore, the Chamber wondered, but we'd

Page 27404

 1     like to hear from you, whether on the remainder -- on other aspects of

 2     the stipulation, you would still join -- or at least that we would know

 3     to what extent you challenge what is found in the other parts of the

 4     paragraphs where the Gotovina Defence and the Cermak Defence jointly made

 5     their stipulations.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Indeed, Your Honour.

 7             First of all, good morning, Your Honour, and everybody in the

 8     courtroom.

 9             Indeed, Your Honour, the main concern of the Markac Defence is

10     exactly what you pointed out.  As it regards to the rest of the

11     stipulation subject, we have no problem with it.  So our main concern is

12     the statement that the armed conflict has ceased from the or about

13     8th of August, 1995.  So as it regards to the other part of opening brief

14     of the Prosecution which the Gotovina Defence would like to stipulate, we

15     have no problem with that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way that you could very precisely

17     define what is and what is not agreed upon?

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I'll try to do that.  But the

19     wording of that paragraph pointed out by the Gotovina Defence from the

20     opening trial brief, the wording is such -- in such a manner that it's

21     very complex, and then I simply cannot exchange one sentence from, let's

22     say, paragraph 107, and as it regards to the other paragraphs, that

23     sentence is some way stipulated in the other form of the paragraphs.  So

24     I don't think I could do that, I don't think.  I tried to follow the

25     guidance of the Trial Chamber and just to focus on the main subject, but

Page 27405

 1     the wording of that paragraph are so, I would say, complex that I simply

 2     cannot extract one part of it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I can imagine that there are other aspects on

 4     which -- whether or not you follow verbatim the wording of the OTP's

 5     pre-trial brief, that there are other parts on which you could agree

 6     perhaps in free language.  For example, it might clarify issues as

 7     whether the Markac Defence considered the armed conflict as an

 8     international or a non-international armed conflict.  There are a few

 9     other parts remaining on which you may seek agreement and which would not

10     contradict the stipulations as they were made by the Gotovina and the

11     Cermak Defence.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we could easily do that, and we

13     could easily address the Chamber and the other parties with our position

14     as it regards.  But as I said, the wording of that paragraphs are simply

15     not easy to be stipulated in totality, so I have to express what position

16     is from Markac Defence as it regards to the other part of the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Even if you would not follow literally every

18     word --

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then, nevertheless, it may -- it may assist in

21     the Chamber in establishing that some matters are not contested, even if

22     you do not follow verbatim the text of paragraphs 105 and 108, and you're

23     encouraged to see what can be done in this --

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  We will proceed that way, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then having dealt with those procedural issues, is

Page 27406

 1     there anything else?  Otherwise, I would like the witness to be brought

 2     into the courtroom.

 3             When later today I refer to pages of documents, I will always

 4     refer to the e-court page numbers and not the page numbers on the hard

 5     copies.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Juric.

 8             Mr. Juric, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

 9     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is

10     now handed out to you by the usher, and I would like -- yes.  You were

11     not able to follow my first words.  You had not your earphones on.  I'll

12     then repeat what I said.

13             Mr. Juric, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

14     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which is

15     now handed out to you by Madam Usher.  May I invite you to make that

16     solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  IVAN JURIC

20                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Juric.  Please be seated.

22             Mr. Juric, you'll first be examined by the Chamber.  Then the

23     Prosecution will put further questions to you.  And after that, you'll be

24     examined by the Defence of the -- the three Defence teams.

25             Mr. Juric, could you, first of all, state your full name and date

Page 27407

 1     of birth for the record?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivan Juric.  I was born on the

 3     28th of October, 1963.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, could you tell us what your present job

 5     is?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm the commander of the Command

 7     for Doctrine, Fran Krsto Frankopan, affiliated with the Croatian Army.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And what is your rank in the army?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a brigadier general.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also tell us what your military rank was

11     in the first half of August 1995; that is, during Operation Storm?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I was a member of the

13     Administration of the Military Police, and my rank was major.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And you kept that rank until ...?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up to the end of 1995.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, in some of the questions the Chamber will

17     rely on the evidence it has already received, not to say that if you

18     disagree with that, please don't hesitate to tell us.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Can you confirm that you arrived in the former

21     Sector South on the 3rd of August, 1995, and that you left again around

22     the 13th of August?

23        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, the indictment in this case alleges that

25     during and after Operation Storm, crimes were committed by Croatian

Page 27408

 1     military and police forces against the population of Serb ethnicity

 2     living in the Krajina region in a period which did include August 1995.

 3             During your mission in the field, did you receive any information

 4     that crimes, such as looting, burning, killings and mistreatment, were

 5     committed by the HV or by the MUP Special Police, members of the HV and

 6     members of the MUP Special Police?

 7        A.   I can't say with any certainty what form of information I

 8     received when I was in the field.  However, I am sure that I did receive

 9     a couple of pieces of information that some members of either the armed

10     forces or individuals wearing parts of the uniform or without uniform

11     were involved in some illegal acts.  However, I can say with 100 per cent

12     certainty that I did not receive information about any major crimes, as

13     it were, being committed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Two follow-up questions.

15             When you talk about the armed forces, that would include what

16     forces exactly?

17        A.   Members of the Croatian Army.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You do not include members of MUP forces or

19     Special Police forces which may have taken part in operational --

20        A.   No, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that you received information only

22     about HV members and individuals wearing uniforms, or did you also

23     receive information about possible crimes committed by police or Special

24     Police forces?

25        A.   No, Your Honour, I did not receive information about any crimes

Page 27409

 1     that might have been committed by members of either the civilian police

 2     or the military police.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was talking about civilian police -- about

 4     MUP forces, I earlier said, and Special Police forces.  I had not yet

 5     mentioned military police forces.  So we have --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I was going to rise because I think

 7     we needed to check the interpretation of the last police force that he

 8     mentioned on page 8, line 1.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             When you said you did not receive information about any crimes

11     that might have been committed by members of either the civilian police

12     or -- what did you then say?  What other police force did you mention;

13     Special Police, military police?

14        A.   The civilian police or the Special Police.  These are the terms

15     that we use, and imply the MUP.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as military police is concerned, did you

17     receive any reports about crimes that may have been committed by members

18     of the military police?

19        A.   No, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us in a bit more detail, as you said

21     before, of these crimes committed?  I think you excluded major crimes.

22     You said:

23             "I can say with 100 per cent certainty that I did not receive

24     information about any major crimes being committed."

25             Now, what do you consider to be major crimes?

Page 27410

 1        A.   That some killings were committed somewhere, that there were

 2     major violations of military discipline.  In any case, had I received

 3     such information, I would have remembered it.  But whatever information

 4     we received on the happenings on the ground, we tried to act upon it and

 5     deal with the situation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, in my question, I included burning,

 7     looting, killings.  Would you consider all of these not to be major

 8     crimes or did you not receive any information about such crimes?

 9        A.   No, I did not receive information about such crimes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could you explain to us what illegal acts you

11     were talking about when you said that you received some information?  You

12     said:

13             "A couple of pieces of information that some members of either

14     the armed forces or individuals wearing parts of uniforms or without

15     uniforms were involved in some illegal acts."

16             What illegal acts and what pieces of information did you refer

17     to?

18        A.   That mostly concerns information that I received from the

19     commander of the 72nd and 73rd Battalion of the Military Police about the

20     work of their members at check-points, and the work and what they noted

21     during their patrols across certain areas.  The whole area of

22     responsibility was very big.  We had very few people at our disposal.  At

23     the check-points, they stopped everybody who entered or left the area of

24     responsibility at the places where we, as members of the military police,

25     found ourselves.  And as we inspected them and their personal --

Page 27411

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you there.  You're explaining on what was

 2     the situation in which information could be received.  Could you tell us

 3     what illegal acts, then, were -- came to your knowledge at the time, if

 4     not looting, burning, killing?  What kind of illegal acts do we have to

 5     think about or, as a matter of fact, you referred to in your answer?

 6        A.   Certain individuals who came to the check-point were in

 7     possession of some objects that they could not prove that they rightfully

 8     belonged to them, and we seized those things.  I can't say whether those

 9     objects were obtained by looting or -- most of them said that those

10     things belonged to them or had belonged to them.  In any case, all those

11     objects were seized and handed over -- I can't remember exactly where.

12     There was a reception centre that was organised by the civilian

13     structures of authority that received all those goods, cattle, or

14     whatever was found in the possession of those individuals.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That reception centre was situated where?

16        A.   Your Honour, I really can't say with 100 per cent certainty.  I

17     can't answer.  I know that one was in the area of Zadar -- in the region

18     of Zadar, another one in the region of Sibenik, and I believe that one

19     was in the region of Sinj, but I'm not 100 per cent sure of that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Until now, we talked about illegal acts, and my

21     question was also about crimes that were reported.  Did you personally

22     witness any crimes committed by Croatian forces during your posting in

23     Sector South in this period between the 3rd and the 13th of August?

24        A.   No, Your Honour, not me, personally.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I will then move on.

Page 27412

 1             Mr. Juric, is it correct that in the first half of August 1995,

 2     you were posted to the area where Operation Storm took place, pursuant to

 3     an order of General Lausic?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what your specific tasks were and

 6     what the area of responsibility was in the former Sector South in this

 7     period of time?

 8        A.   Together with a team of officers from the Administration of the

 9     Military Police, I was sent to the area of Split and to cover the area of

10     responsibility of Split Military District, and co-ordinate the work of

11     the 72nd and the 73rd Battalions of the Military Police in their joint

12     work.  And together with the team, I was supposed to extend professional

13     support to the military police in co-ordination and co-ordinated work of

14     the military police, civilian police, members of the SIS, and all other

15     security services, if you will.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us exactly when you arrived in Knin?

17        A.   I think it was on the second day of the operation, around 6.00 or

18     7.00 or 8.00 in the evening.  I can't remember exactly.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be the 5th?

20        A.   That would be the 5th, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as your authority is concerned, Mr. Juric,

22     could you tell us, in this period of time between the 3rd and the

23     13th of August, did you have authority over the commanders of the

24     72nd and 73rd Military Police Battalions?

25        A.   In principle, the orders that I received, and as I received these

Page 27413

 1     orders, in a way, I was the superior of the commanders of the 72nd and

 2     73rd within the part of their tasks where they had joint activities to

 3     carry out.  As far as the military police is concerned, I had the right

 4     to issue orders to them, but I don't think I was their superior in the

 5     formal or legal sense of the word.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if we could ask the witness again to

 7     repeat part of his answer.  At page 12, line 3, I believe he made a

 8     reference to from where his authority flowed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Could you answer the question?  And you told us that you were

11     superior to the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd within the part of their

12     tasks, as you said, where they had joint activities to carry out.  And

13     then you continued by saying:

14             "As far as the military police is concerned ..."

15             And could you then repeat what you then said, what right you had?

16        A.   I said that I had authority from the Administration of the

17     Military Police, and that on that basis I could give them tasks.  But

18     from a formal and legal point of view, I was not their superior.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you further explain what you mean

20     exactly with:  "I had authority from the Administration of the Military

21     Police"?

22        A.   The Military Police Administration was the superior of units.  I

23     was head of the Traffic Department in the Military Police Administration,

24     and on the basis of the position I held, the job I held, where I came

25     from, and on the basis of the order of the chief of the Military Police

Page 27414

 1     Administration, I had this authority in terms of issuing orders or tasks.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is it true that General Lausic delegated some

 3     of his powers to you on the basis of the existing legislation?

 4        A.   Your Honour, I really don't know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You have --

 6        A.   Could you perhaps give me an example?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm at this moment talking rather in the abstract,

 8     and the question was focusing on the powers General Lausic had under the

 9     order of the Croatian Ministry of Defence concerning the military police

10     which was issued in 1994.  The question was whether some of the powers

11     were delegated to you by General Lausic.

12        A.   If I understood you correctly, you are speaking about the Rules

13     of Service of the Military Police.  Do you mean whether I got any powers

14     from General Lausic on the basis of those rules?  Is that what you're

15     asking?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether he delegated part of his powers to you by

17     appointing you.

18        A.   Only what General Lausic wrote in his order when he sent me down

19     there, and in the way in which I received that task and explained to him

20     how and in which way I understood the task he gave me, but he could not

21     have transferred any of his own powers or did I have any specific powers

22     that the chief of the Military Police Administration had.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me move on.

24             I asked you to explain to us -- I asked you to explain what you

25     meant exactly by:

Page 27415

 1             "I had authority from the Administration of the Military Police."

 2             Now, were you -- and I'm seeking further explanation of another

 3     part of your answer.  Were you superior to the commanders of the 72nd and

 4     the 73rd Battalion of the Military Police; the 73rd to the extent that

 5     they assisted the 72nd?  Were you superior to those commanders?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I can say that partly, yes, to the extent to which

 7     they acted in co-ordinated fashion, but only in terms of that

 8     co-ordination, this co-ordinated activity, to work on that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that your focus was on

10     co-ordination, but could you give orders, then, to these military police

11     battalion commanders, if need be?

12        A.   I would say tasks, that I issued tasks to them, and they were

13     supposed to carry them out and to co-ordinate them.  I did not write or

14     issue any direct orders.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but if you give a task to someone who's then

16     under an obligation to fulfill such a task, is that -- whether you call

17     it orders or not is another matter, but what you said, they would have to

18     do -- they would have to do it?

19        A.   Yes, but I did not have any personal powers that an original

20     commander has and that we can say that a commander has in general.  I

21     only had partial powers related to the execution of particular tasks.

22     Specifically, I did not have any powers in the domain of personnel, and I

23     could not do anything in that regard in these units.  I only had

24     something to do with the execution of the particular task involved.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at D268.

Page 27416

 1             Mr. Juric, the texts will appear on your screen.  If, however,

 2     you would feel the need to read a hard copy of a text, please ask us, and

 3     then we'll provide you with a hard copy.

 4             Could I have D268; page 2 in English, page 1 in B/C/S.

 5             Mr. Juric, you see the original on the screen.

 6             Perhaps enlarge it a bit so that you can better see it.

 7             Do you recognise this order?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We see, among other matters -- perhaps we go through

10     it in the several elements.

11             First of all, it reads that in the command system, that the

12     commanders of the 72nd and the 73rd, in some respects, that you are

13     superior to the commanders of those battalions.  We discussed that

14     already.  If you have any further comment on that, please give it.

15        A.   Well, Your Honour, I can repeat what I've said.  I really haven't

16     seen this order in a long time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need to repeat anything.  But since you

18     have now the text in front of you, I wanted to give you an opportunity to

19     add anything to your previous answer.

20             Now, the second bullet point says that you are responsible for

21     the implementation of all military police tasks in the 72nd Military

22     Police Battalion zone of responsibility.  That sounds as if your

23     responsibility is unrestricted in respect of all military police tasks.

24        A.   Yes, but if you look at the first bullet point, you will see that

25     it says that in the command system, I am superior to the commanders of

Page 27417

 1     the 72nd and 73rd Battalions with regard to extending assistance to the

 2     72nd Battalion; that is to say, that it says explicitly that I am

 3     superior to these commanders only in that part of their tasks that

 4     pertain to assistance, as for the responsibility of carrying out all

 5     military police tasks in the area of responsibility of the

 6     72nd Battalion, in terms of co-ordinating supervision and control of the

 7     implementation of tasks.  However, by the time I got down there, almost

 8     all plans had already been worked out, and the commanders only told me

 9     how and in which way they carried out this planning, how and in which way

10     the tasks would be carried out in stages.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I read the first bullet point, but please correct me

12     when my understanding is wrong, that the superiority over the commander

13     of the 73rd Battalion is limited; however, not vice versa, that is, that

14     your superiority to the commander of the 72nd would be also limited in

15     the other direction of assistance.  If my question is not clear, please

16     tell me.

17        A.   Your Honour, what I'm telling you now is how I understood the

18     order or task at the time, and I then expressed that particular

19     understanding of the order.  I still claim that I did not have full

20     command responsibility over the 72nd and 73rd Battalion of the Military

21     Police or did I get that kind of transfer of authority.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In the semi-last bullet point, it reads that

23     you are authorised to undertake all measures to ensure efficient and

24     effective implementation of military police tasks in the 72nd Military

25     Police Battalion and North OS zones of responsibility.

Page 27418

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I said that drawing on the authority of the

 2     Administration of Military Police, I did issue tasks to the members of

 3     the 72nd and 73rd Battalion of the Military Police, in terms to improve

 4     efficiency, methods, tactics, remove all observed shortcomings, and in

 5     order to carry out co-operation and co-ordination.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Your authority, would that be irrespective of the

 7     rank of the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd Military Police Battalions?

 8        A.   I don't understand the question, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, could you tell us, were they higher in rank or

10     were they not higher in rank compared to your rank, these commanders of

11     the 72nd and 73rd?

12        A.   I think that all three of us held the same rank.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, usually people of the same rank do not

14     give orders to each other, isn't it?  And that's what I meant with,

15     irrespective of rank, that you would -- that you could give orders,

16     although the commanders were not lower in rank.

17        A.   Frankly speaking, I don't know what would have been the case had

18     they held higher ranks than me.  But I only considered them to be

19     colleagues, and we worked on this job together, and that's why I keep

20     saying that I issued them tasks rather than orders.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But even if they were of equal rank -- equal

22     military rank to you, that did not negatively impact on your authority

23     over them, being superior to them as commanders of the 72nd and 73rd?

24        A.   In the implementation of all of these tasks that we received and

25     that we issued, they resolved that and they tried to resolve all of that

Page 27419

 1     on the ground.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you earlier said you could give them tasks

 3     and they had to fulfill those tasks.  Now, you were of equal rank.  The

 4     only thing I'm asking you, whether that in any way affected or negatively

 5     affected your authority, the fact that you were of equal rank, but, as

 6     you told us, you could, nevertheless, give them tasks and they had to

 7     perform those tasks?

 8        A.   I don't think that it had any effect, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, you have given an interview to

10     investigators of the Office of the Prosecution in March 2002; is that --

11     can you confirm that?

12        A.   Yes, they conducted an interview.  I don't remember the exact

13     date.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

15     sentence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

17     sentence?

18        A.   Yes.  They conducted an interview with me, but I don't remember

19     exactly when that occurred.  I think that it was in the beginning of

20     2002.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The date on the notes of the interview is that

22     this interview took place on the 5th of March, 2002, which seems to be in

23     line with your recollection.

24             Could I just seek clarification of your statement, at least your

25     statement as it was put on paper.  I read off paragraph 26, where you

Page 27420

 1     said:

 2             "Two or three days ...," that's at least how it is reflected in

 3     the notes:

 4             "Two or three days after the president left Knin, I also left.  I

 5     went out into the whole of the area that I was responsible for.  I went

 6     to visit locations where the military police were situated.  We were

 7     setting up military police posts in the liberated area.  In some areas,

 8     we were tasked by other military police commanders to ensure the security

 9     of certain buildings."

10             Could you tell us, "other military police commanders," to whom

11     were you referring there?

12        A.   Your Honours, I believe that there has been a mistake in the

13     translation.  I'm sure I didn't say "other military police commanders."

14     When it came to providing security for certain facilities and certain

15     parts in the liberated areas, we could only receive orders from our

16     superiors.  Whether they arrived from the Administration of the Military

17     Police, the Main Staff, the Ministry of Defence, that's the institutions

18     that I had in mind when talking about orders and who orders came from,

19     and I suppose that that's what I said at that time.  And I don't know why

20     somebody decided to translate it with the words "military police."  I'm

21     sure that I didn't say that, because we didn't receive orders from the

22     military police.  I'm sure of that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are talking about, as it is put on paper,

24     certain buildings, including two or three churches, electrical and water

25     installations, and other parts of the infrastructure.  So you say, When

Page 27421

 1     we received instructions to ensure the security of those buildings, those

 2     orders came from either the Administration of the Military Police, from

 3     the Main Staff, Ministry of Defence?

 4        A.   That's correct, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In the that same interview, you are reported -- and

 6     I'm referring to paragraph 29, and I will read that to you.  You're

 7     reported to have said:

 8             "During my time in the liberated area, I had no problems with the

 9     other military police commanders.  I did not interfere with their jobs.

10     I just tried to connect the work of the MUP and the military police.  If

11     there had been a problem, I would have informed General Lausic."

12             Here, again, the wording, as we find it, is "other military

13     police commanders."  Could you tell us, in this context, to whom you

14     referred?

15        A.   Your Honour, I don't know what the question was.  But if we were

16     talking about the area of responsibility, then we were talking

17     exclusively about the commanders who were on the strength of the 72nd and

18     the 73rd Battalions of the Military Police and were deployed in the area

19     of responsibility.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You referred to your area of responsibility.  How

21     was that exactly defined?  Was it defined by fixed geographical area or

22     was it defined by the movement of other troops?  Could you tell us what

23     defined your area of responsibility?

24        A.   Your Honour, at first the area of responsibility was the area of

25     responsibility of the Split Military District.  And as time went on, it

Page 27422

 1     followed the dynamics and the rate at which the units of the Croatian

 2     Army went on to liberate the occupied parts of Croatia.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would say it was a -- when they moved, your

 4     area of responsibility moved with their movements; is that how I have to

 5     understand?

 6        A.   Yes, to a certain line that we considered the separation line

 7     between the combat area and the so-called non-combat area.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in Operation Storm, not only HV forces were

 9     operational, but other forces as well.  For example, this Chamber

10     received quite some information about the role of the Special Police in

11     combat.  Now, if the Special Police took part in the overall military

12     Operation Storm, what influence would that have on your area of

13     responsibility which, as you said, moved with the troops?

14        A.   Your Honour, the military police did not have any authority over

15     the Special Police.  As far as I can remember, members of the Special

16     Police participated in the performance of combat tasks in the area where

17     I was in charge of the implementation of military police tasks.  If my

18     memory serves me well, I believe that to the left from us, in the

19     direction of Lika, that's where they were deployed.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  To the left of you, you understand -- could you be a

21     bit more precise?  This Chamber received information - perhaps you could

22     either confirm or challenge that - that, for example, the Special Police

23     forces were moving from west to east, involved in the liberation of

24     Gracac, then moved further east -- north-east to Donji Lapac.  Is that

25     what you're referring to?

Page 27423

 1        A.   Yes, I had that part in mind, but that was beyond my area of

 2     responsibility -- or, rather, it was not in my area of responsibility.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if you exclude that, could you then be a bit

 4     more precise?  Apparently, your authority moved with -- your area of

 5     responsibility moved with HV troops.  Do we have to understand that there

 6     were no HV troops in that area; let us say, Gracac, and then on to

 7     Donji Lapac, Bruvno?

 8        A.   Your Honour, as far as I can remember, that area of the

 9     Republic of Croatia did not belong to the part of the area of

10     responsibility for which I was responsible in the implementation of

11     military and police tasks.  Therefore, I'm really not informed about the

12     work and activities of the military police during Operation Storm.  I

13     didn't see them during Operation Storm.  I didn't come across them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  I believe page 22, line 11, he says he was

16     not informed about the work and activities of the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll ask the witness to repeat that.

18             You told us that that that area of Croatia did not belong to the

19     part of the area of responsibility for which you were responsible in the

20     implementation of military and police tasks, and you then said:

21             "Therefore, I'm really not informed about ..."

22             And could you then please repeat what you then said?  I think you

23     said informed about the work and activities of -- of what, exactly?

24        A.   The work and activities of the Special Police during

25     Operation Storm.

Page 27424

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you know exactly where HV troops were

 2     operational and where they were not, because that apparently defined your

 3     area of responsibility?

 4        A.   We had meetings every day, and either I or the commander of the

 5     72nd Battalion of the Military Police were present at those meetings.  We

 6     were briefed about how far the units reached and how they had implemented

 7     their tasks.  In principle, we learned, at that evening briefing, how far

 8     did the Croatian Army go in liberating that area the previous day, what

 9     lines they had reached, and that's how we knew where to set up our

10     military and police check-points, what areas to patrol, up to a certain

11     extent, up to the extent of the area where that was possible.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Were there any mixed operations between the several

13     parts of the armed forces, such as HV or police forces, taking part in

14     Operation Storm; for example, troops moving on, receiving artillery

15     support from other elements of the armed forces?

16        A.   Your Honour, I was a member of the military police.  I did not

17     participate in the planning and implementation of that type of operation,

18     nor was I privy to that information.  I was not familiar with that kind

19     of operation, so I'm not in a position to answer your question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If your area of responsibility is defined by the

21     movement of troops, I can imagine that it may have raised some questions

22     as to your area of responsibility if operations were carried out by both

23     HV and non-HV elements in the armed forces.

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  However, I repeat that we followed the units

25     of the Croatian Army that were assigned to the Split Military District

Page 27425

 1     for the implementation of that task.  The part where a special unit was

 2     deployed did not fall under the Split Military District, in terms of our

 3     responsibilities, so I would say that we exclusively followed those units

 4     that, according to our divisions, were assigned to the Split Military

 5     District.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I move to another subject, Mr. Juric.

 7             In performing your tasks, were you moving around on the ground?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, how did you plan your movements,

10     and what made you decide to go here or there?

11        A.   It was mostly based on either reports received from subordinated

12     officers attached to the 72nd Battalion of the Military Police, or parts

13     of the 73rd Battalion, and those reports were relative to the

14     organisation and establishment of new units of the military police,

15     co-ordination, co-operation, the monitoring of the implementation of some

16     of the tasks, the control of check-points, and how people manning

17     check-points were performing their tasks.  And in those terms, I did my

18     planning as to where to go and how to make my inspections of the area.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for our impression - you spent approximately

20     10 days - what would be the distance you would travel on an average day?

21        A.   Your Honours, I did not make rounds of the units every day.  It

22     all depended on whether I had received some other tasks that I was

23     supposed to carry out.  On the 5th, we entered Knin.  On the 6th, the

24     president of Croatia, Mr. Tudjman, visited Knin, and I had a lot of work

25     to do with regard to that, a lot of tasks.  And I believe on the 7th,

Page 27426

 1     Mr. Yasushi Akashi came to Knin, which means that I had to be involved in

 2     providing security for him.  And I believe that on the 8th or the 9th, or

 3     perhaps even on the 10th - I can't remember exactly - was when I carried

 4     out my first inspection of some elements of the units on the line

 5     stretching from Obrovac, Benkovac, Drnis, of that part, I believe.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, the Chamber understands that you had a

 7     co-ordinating role in at least two respects; the first being the

 8     co-ordination between the 72nd and the 73rd Military Police Battalions,

 9     and the second co-ordinating role in respect of the work of the civil and

10     the military police.  Could you further explain to us what this

11     co-ordination exactly was in both these areas, the first, 72nd and 73rd,

12     and the other one, civilian and military police?  Could we start with the

13     first one, 72nd and 73rd, perhaps give us some examples on what exactly

14     you then co-ordinated, how you co-ordinated.

15        A.   Well, when the decision was being made about the engagement of

16     the units of the military police in Operation Storm, due to the

17     relatively small number of available police officers, the chief made a

18     decision for the 73rd Battalion of the Military Police and its forces

19     actively participated in the implementation of tasks in Operation Storm

20     in the area of responsibility of the 72nd Battalion of the Military

21     Police, which means that the 73rd Battalion of the Military Police, with

22     some of its men, was involved in the work and activities that one could

23     say were overlapping with the area of responsibility of the OG Sibenik.

24     Within the framework of the OG Sibenik, they were active even during the

25     first couple of days, and they covered the area of responsibility of the

Page 27427

 1     region of Drnis and around Drnis.  That was the way how things were

 2     co-ordinated between those two units.  Those two units were linked up,

 3     and they worked together, in concert.

 4             As far as co-ordination is concerned with the civilian police,

 5     the civilian police also had certain units, if we wanted to use military

 6     terms, and they were tasked with establishing police stations in most of

 7     the bigger settlements that had been liberated, and that form of

 8     co-ordination happened daily and involved the commanders of the units of

 9     military police and the commanders of the police stations that had been

10     established in that area.  My role was to establish whether that

11     co-ordination evolved on a daily basis, whether it was effective, and

12     whether there were possibly some problems that we could deal with at

13     other co-ordination levels.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Just to check whether I understood you well,

15     is it like, You'll go there and cover this area, or, You establish a

16     police post here, whereas we will do that; is that the kind of

17     co-ordination to divide tasks and to see that no double work was done,

18     and that as effectively as possible the area was covered by the

19     activities of the 72nd and 73rd?  Is that how I have to understand

20     your -- could you give us, perhaps, one clear decision where you said,

21     This is a decision I took in the context of co-ordination, just by way of

22     an example?

23        A.   You mean the civilian police, the military police, or --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's start with the 72nd/73rd.

25        A.   We can say that one part of the area of responsibility that was

Page 27428

 1     covered by the 73rd in Drnis was covered by certain activities, which

 2     means that we looked at the number of check-points, the number of

 3     patrols, and the areas that certain patrols covered during their regular

 4     patrols.  And this was all aimed at relieving those units that were

 5     over-worked and had too much to do, and we wanted to distribute the

 6     burden evenly between the 72nd and the 73rd Battalions of the Military

 7     Police.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And now an example of co-ordination between civilian

 9     and military police.

10        A.   I personally -- when I went either to Obrovac, or Benkovac, or

11     Drnis, or when I was in Knin itself, I personally checked on a daily

12     basis with the members and commanders of the military police, maintained

13     the regular co-ordinations with members of the civilian police, and this

14     was all to do with manning check-points, whether they would be manned by

15     the military police only, by the civilian police, or whether they would

16     be manned jointly, or how we would co-ordinate the work and activities of

17     both the police forces in that area where they were responsible.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  In the context of this co-ordination,

19     did you attend meetings of high-level authorities, and I'm now -- whether

20     that would be meetings purely within the military context, or with

21     civilian authorities, or MUP authorities?

22        A.   No, Your Honour.  Those were mostly co-ordinations with the

23     commanders of the police stations that had been organised in the

24     liberated areas.  I can't remember, but perhaps somebody from the

25     Police Administrations also attended those co-ordination meetings, but

Page 27429

 1     nobody above them.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  This Chamber received evidence, a witness who told

 3     us that you attended a high-level meeting -- and for the parties, I'm

 4     referring to transcript page T-8973 -- that you attended high-level

 5     meetings to agree on the work, and that you would then provide this

 6     witness, who was also working in the military police, as to how the task

 7     that had been agreed upon should be carried out.  So it describes, more

 8     or less, you attending a meeting with -- high-level meetings, and he was

 9     talking about co-ordination between military police and civilian police,

10     and then give further instructions down the line.

11        A.   I don't know, Your Honour.  Could you please jog my memory?  What

12     meeting are you referring to, and where did that meeting take place?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not referring to a specific meeting.  I'm

14     referring to the evidence this Chamber received, and let me just check

15     for one second.  I'll try to find the place where the witness -- I am

16     trying to find exactly what he said.  He was talking about you, as a

17     co-ordinator, and he said the following:

18             "He co-ordinated the work of the military police and the work of

19     the civilian police.  He attended high-level meetings to agree on the

20     work, and then he would provide me ..."

21             And the witness was a company commander in the 72nd Battalion --

22     Military Police Battalion:

23             "... and then he would provide me with guide-lines as to how the

24     task that had been agreed on should be carried out."

25             So there are no further details.  That's the reason why I'm

Page 27430

 1     asking you.

 2        A.   Your Honour, I really can't remember a meeting attended by high

 3     officials of the Ministry of the Interior and us, discussing operational

 4     matters during Operation Storm.  I really don't know.  Was that some

 5     other kind of meeting, a meeting of a different nature?  That may well

 6     have been the case, but I really can't remember officials of the Ministry

 7     of the Interior -- high-ranking officials of the Ministry of the Interior

 8     attending a meeting that I, myself, also attended, and that meeting

 9     dealing with operational matters, on top of that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as your recollection goes, what was the

11     highest level of meeting you remember to have had with MUP officials when

12     you were in the area between the 3rd and the 13th of August?

13        A.   I believe that the chief of the Police Administration of Sibenik

14     and Knin was the one.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you ever attend meetings where Mr. Cermak

16     was present?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And who else were present at those meetings?  Were

19     MUP officials present, were others present?  Could you tell us?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, I attended perhaps one or two meetings

21     that General Cermak organised.  However, those meetings were attended by

22     large groups of people.  I remember that we could not even find seats in

23     the largest room that we had.  There were representatives of the civilian

24     police, the military police representatives were also there, and I

25     believe that there were also representatives of some international

Page 27431

 1     organisations, perhaps the UN or some others.  I don't know.  I really

 2     can't remember the composition of people who attended that meeting, but I

 3     remember a large crowd.  That's what I remember very well.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, we'll first have a break, and we'll

 5     resume at 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, I'll move to a new subject, that is the

 9     reporting system, primarily.

10             When you were posted in Sector South in the period I mentioned

11     before, did you report to General Lausic on issues of crime?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could your microphone be activated?  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The system of reporting that had

15     been established was as follows:  I was at the forward command post of

16     the -- the commander of the 72nd Battalion of the Military Police that

17     had operative duty service, and that is where reports came from all

18     subordinate units.  Either I or one of my colleagues would draw up a

19     single report on the basis of the information received from the

20     subordinate units, and in accordance with General Lausic's orders, we

21     sent this to Zagreb, to the Military Police Administration, up to

22     2000 hours every day, I think.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You only did send those reports to the Military

24     Police Administration, Zagreb, or were there any other addressees?

25        A.   As far as I can remember, I only sent my report to the Military

Page 27432

 1     Police Administration.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, apart from the system of reporting - we'll come

 3     back to that at a later stage - would the occurrence of crime be subject

 4     of reporting if it would have happened?

 5        A.   Absolutely.  Everything we got from the subordinate units by way

 6     of reports or information, that would be included in any report.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In your previous answer, you said that reports

 8     came from all subordinate units, and then you would -- you or your

 9     colleague would draw one single report.  Would you include any

10     information you gained by your personal observation of what you saw in

11     the field?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, yes, I would.  Also, I would usually

13     call the Military Police Administration on the phone, and I would inform

14     them about all the knowledge I had, personally, that had to do with the

15     implementation of tasks or some problems that I had observed during the

16     course of the day.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that then not appear in the written report,

18     what you told them by phone?

19        A.   Yes, yes, if I were personally present when the report was being

20     written up.  However, I thought that written reports and oral reports had

21     the same value, the same significance, the same importance.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us an example of some personal

23     observation, which you included in the report, which you had not seen in

24     the reports by the subordinate units?

25        A.   Your Honour, I cannot remember specifically.  I cannot remember

Page 27433

 1     any specific matter that I perhaps did or did not include in the report.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I take you to some of the reports which you

 3     may have received.

 4             Could we have a look at P1193.  And I'd like to go to page 9 in

 5     the English, 7 in the B/C/S.  Yes, the second paragraph I'd like to have

 6     highlighted.  Yes, that one.  That seems not to be page -- is that

 7     page 7?  Let me have a look.  One second, please.  Apparently we do not

 8     have the right page in B/C/S.  Let me just have a look.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, in the B/C/S it is on the screen.

10     It's the third paragraph on the bottom.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's the third paragraph.  Oh, then I made a

12     mistake.  My apologies for that.  Yes, I see the "five to six."  Yes,

13     it's my mistake.

14             Mr. Juric, could you please read the last paragraph of your page

15     in B/C/S?  This, apparently, is a report on the events of the

16     5th of August.

17             Do you remember whether you received this report of five to six

18     bodies being found during searches, and then security services being

19     informed?  And then it says:

20             "Considering the shortness of time passed since our entrance into

21     the city, we assumed that these were people of Croatian ethnicity who had

22     been killed by Chetniks."

23             Do you remember that you received such a report?

24        A.   Your Honour, I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty whether I

25     received it or not.  However, if that is the report that was sent by the

Page 27434

 1     military police of Benkovac on that day, then most probably it did arrive

 2     at the centre there and that we read it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, reading that, five to six people being

 4     killed, easily assumed that these were Croatians killed by Chetniks, you

 5     considered, I think, that no serious crimes were reported to you.  Would

 6     you join the conclusion here that exclusively on the basis of timing,

 7     that this must have been Croatians killed by Chetniks?

 8        A.   No, Your Honour, I did not draw any conclusion on this basis,

 9     either then or would I do so now.  This is a report that was compiled on

10     the 6th of August.  That is to say, it was related to the 5th, the 5th,

11     6th, that's right.  That is to say that fighting was still going on,

12     intensive fighting in the area.  This report clearly shows that members

13     of the military police found five or six dead persons there, and they

14     certainly informed those who they were supposed to inform about that.

15     And the documentation of the military police would certainly have to have

16     this, and especially the crime military police that was in charge of

17     going out into the field, on the scene, doing their part of the work.  I

18     mean, we did not take into account this allegation and opinion of the

19     person who wrote the report and stated his personal view.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you give any instructions as to the persons that

21     were found to be identified so that you could establish whether or not

22     the assumption expressed in this report had any factual basis?

23        A.   Yes.  As you could see, members of the crime military police and

24     members of the general military police were with me on this team.  All of

25     them received precise and clear tasks down their own line of work.  One

Page 27435

 1     of the tasks of the crime military police was precisely that; namely,

 2     that all persons that are found -- all the bodies that are found should

 3     be dealt with appropriately, as usual, by the crime police, and if they

 4     cannot do that, they should inform, as soon as possible, the closest

 5     civilian police unit that should record that, and they should do whatever

 6     should be done, in professional terms, in such cases.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're now talking in general terms.  But in

 8     relation to this report, were any orders given such as, Take care that

 9     the bodies are properly identified?  Do you have any recollection of

10     taking such action?

11        A.   As I read this report and at the time, I certainly would give

12     such guide-lines, either I or somebody who was duty operations officer,

13     or whoever was present at the time from the crime military police.  That

14     was regular procedure.  It wasn't anything extraordinary, to give that

15     kind of task and to have that kind of thing done.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  This is, again, an answer in general terms that this

17     is what would be done or would usually.  Is there any documentation, any

18     record of giving such instructions in this case, as far as you know?

19        A.   I'm not sure.  I'm not sure whether there are any kind of records

20     and whether I, myself, issued any tasks in relation to this particular

21     case.  However, I repeat once again, Your Honour, that at any rate, for

22     such cases tasks to have this done had to be given.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, in this report it appears that if

24     there were any such instructions, that on a loose assumption based on

25     timing only, one would not investigate?

Page 27436

 1        A.   Your Honour, with all due respect, the regular tasks that were

 2     carried out and the way in which this was carried out involved such cases

 3     as regular cases that had to be recorded and that had to be processed.

 4     Once again, I repeat, perhaps the person who wrote up this report was not

 5     educated enough and, therefore, gave his own views here, but those were

 6     the tasks of the members of the military police, and checks were made as

 7     to whether tasks were being carried out properly.  And I can say with

 8     certainty that this had to be recorded.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I take you to the next page in B/C/S, and, in

10     English, the same page, last paragraph.  There, it is reported that:

11             "It should be emphasised that only one fire incident occurred in

12     the town itself ..."

13             Do you have any recollection of this part of this report?  This

14     is the report by Mr. Kranjcevic, and it is about Benkovac.

15        A.   If that is what is written in this report, then I accept that

16     that was reality.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This is reported by the military police, but

18     we do not see any indication of the matter be investigated.  Did you

19     receive reports or were there instructions that if houses were on fire,

20     that it should be investigated, what caused the fire?

21        A.   Yes.  I can just engage in guess-work to the effect that the

22     members of the military police who came across this obviously did not

23     find anyone around that house, and, therefore, nothing was written in the

24     report itself.  In case they had noticed anyone, if they had noticed some

25     persons in the vicinity, that certainly would have been intimated in this

Page 27437

 1     report.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you agree with me that at least the

 3     matter is considered in the context of possible arson or torching of

 4     houses, because the report says there were no attempts of house-torching

 5     and that the situation was satisfactory?

 6        A.   Yes.  But what was particularly highlighted there is that it was

 7     noticed that a house was in flames and that measures were taken for the

 8     fire to be put out as fast and as efficiently as possible in order to

 9     prevent possible spread of damage.  I do not see that any attempt was

10     made to conceal or hide anything that had happened.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to take you a little bit further down in

12     this document; page 10 in English, page 8 in B/C/S.

13             Could you please read the third full paragraph from the bottom in

14     your language, and forgive me for the pronunciation, starting with:

15     "Treba napomenuti."

16        A.   Thank you.  I've read it, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Here, it is described that the problem started in

18     the locations from which the military police withdrew in order to go to

19     the front-line, and that places were left without military policemen, and

20     that that complicated the work for the MUP, that there was a manpower

21     shortage.  Do you remember to have received such report?

22        A.   Your Honours, this is one of the statements that appeared almost

23     every day in co-ordinations and talks among us, members of the military

24     police, and when we had our joint co-ordination meetings with MUP

25     members.  Our area of responsibility was quite large.  We were

Page 27438

 1     under-staffed.  People worked for 12 hours, and then they were off for

 2     12 hours.  We tried to do as much as possible in order to cover as much

 3     of the area of responsibility and be present as much as we could.  You

 4     know that it's very difficult to cover a relatively large area of

 5     responsibility if you're seriously under-staffed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll further look at some of the reports at a later

 7     stage, but I'd just touch upon another matter meanwhile.

 8             Would the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd Military Police

 9     Battalion, who reported to you, would they also report to

10     General Gotovina, or would they receive any reports from military

11     commanders?  I'm interested to know what the reporting links, either

12     receiving or sending, were between the military HV operational command

13     and the military police.

14        A.   The practice continued, the customary practice of the military

15     police.  The highest-ranking commander in an area of responsibility, who

16     was the operative commander, was supposed to receive daily operative

17     reports from military police units, and that had, indeed, covered all the

18     developments in the corresponding area over the period of 24 hours.

19     Also, those commanders were supposed to be present at the briefings that

20     operative commanders in their respective areas of responsibility held.

21     At those briefings, they were supposed to receive certain information --

22     or, rather, they were supposed to be briefed and they were supposed to

23     provide briefings to others.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you also report -- apart from to the

25     Administration of Military Police in Zagreb, did you report to also

Page 27439

 1     non-military police, military commanders?  And if so, to whom did you

 2     report?

 3        A.   No, Your Honour, I sent my reports only to the Administration of

 4     the Military Police.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the Chamber received evidence that there was a

 6     reporting system along two different chains of commands; that is, both in

 7     the HV hierarchy and in the military police hierarchy.  I do understand

 8     that you say that is not what happened.  Were you supposed to report in

 9     the HV hierarchy?  Yes?

10        A.   Your Honours, I didn't say -- if I understood your question well,

11     I didn't say -- in the introductory part, I said that the reporting

12     system followed the old system, as it had been established in the

13     military police, which means that commanders were duty-bound to report to

14     the operative commanders at the highest level of the developments that

15     had taken place.  And I, personally, I was duty-bound to report only to

16     the Administration of the Military Police.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then tell us -- apparently, if I

18     understand your answer well, other military police commanders, they would

19     report to -- well, within the HV hierarchy.  Could you tell us to whom

20     the commanders of the 72nd and 73rd Military Police Battalion would

21     report in the military HV hierarchy?

22        A.   The commander of the 72nd Battalion of the Military Police needed

23     to receive a summary of security developments, and he was supposed to

24     send it to the commander of the military district.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did that happen?

Page 27440

 1        A.   I don't know, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But your responsibility for the performance of all

 3     tasks within the military police would not include any responsibility for

 4     appropriate reporting within the HV hierarchy, or to supervise that and

 5     to check whether that happened?

 6        A.   Your Honour, it was an established procedure which started or was

 7     launched at the moment when the military police was organised and when

 8     the Rules of Service of the Military Police were introduced and continued

 9     thereafter, so I did not need -- I did not feel the need to check whether

10     those rules were being implemented.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave this subject, Mr. Juric.

12             Did you become aware, when you were posted in Sector South, of

13     burning and looting committed by HV members in the town of Kistanje and

14     the surrounding villages on or around the 6th of August, 1995?

15        A.   No, Your Honour.  I was in Kistanje personally on the 8th or the

16     9th -- I can't remember when it was.  It was either on the 8th, the

17     9th or the 10th.  I inspected a small group of the military police which

18     had been sent there pursuant to a special order in order to provide

19     security for an Orthodox monastery and a factory which was a

20     special-purpose factory, as we called it, which means that it

21     manufactured some military equipment or materiel.  And as I arrived in

22     Kistanje, I did not notice anything that would be out of the ordinary,

23     and I didn't notice anything that fell out of the scope of regular combat

24     activities.  At the moment when I was there, I am certain that I did not

25     see a single house burning at that moment, and I saw some four or five

Page 27441

 1     destroyed houses that could have been destroyed during the war.  And as

 2     far as I can remember, on that day, in passing or in Kistanje, itself, I

 3     saw UN members who were present on that day, on the same day I was there,

 4     and there was nothing going on on that day, nothing out of the ordinary,

 5     nothing that would suggest anything of the kind you indicated.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have P203 on the screen, the first page

 7     both in English and B/C/S.  Could you please focus on the paragraph

 8     starting with:

 9             "In the liberated areas of the hinterlands of Zadar and

10     Sibenik ..."

11             This is a report from Mr. Gugic of the SIS, the Security and

12     Information Services, to Gojko Susak and Miroslav Tudjman, and I read the

13     relevant part.  He says:

14             "More precisely," and the report is dated the 8th of August, "in

15     the liberated settlements Bribirske Mostine, Djeverske and Kistanje, the

16     situation is rather chaotic.  Incidents of mass burning of houses,

17     plundering of property, alcohol consumption occur, and the units lack

18     organisation."

19             That does not match, apparently, with your observations.  Do you

20     have any explanations, where you said, There wasn't even a house burning,

21     I didn't even see a house burning, that apparently the assessment of

22     Mr. Gugic is quite different?

23        A.   Your Honour, I said that I was in Kistanje on that day, and I

24     really did not see any of that.  I don't know what was going on in other

25     places.  I was not there, so I can't tell you anything about them.

Page 27442

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this report continued to say that this was

 2     reported by the -- was reported to the commanders of the operational

 3     groups, and it then continues:

 4             "A military police platoon has been assigned to the area in order

 5     to normalise the situation concerning the HV members."

 6             Which seems to fall within the scope of your responsibility, that

 7     is, giving tasks to military police platoons.

 8             Did I understand you well, that -- let me just check -- that you

 9     had a different reason for military police being sent there to provide

10     security for an Orthodox monastery and a factory which was a

11     special-purpose factory?  That's not what Mr. Gugic reports.  He says

12     that it was to normalise the situation concerning the HV members.

13        A.   I've spoken about the military police in Kistanje.  This had been

14     planned and agreed, and they were sent to Kistanje without any

15     information about anything happening in Kistanje.  It was our task to

16     secure the two or three facilities that were there.  I can't remember the

17     date when that military police unit was sent to Kistanje.  Whether that

18     unit was recognised by Mr. Gugic as a unit that had been sent to

19     normalise the situation, I wouldn't know.  In any case, that unit that

20     was billeted in Kistanje was also tasked with securing public peace and

21     order in the area of responsibility that was assigned to them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you visited the area.  The Chamber received

23     evidence that you would have visited the area on the 9th of August.  Does

24     that match with your recollection?

25        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I said that on the 8th and 9th and 10th, I

Page 27443

 1     toured the area, but I can't give you a specific date.  I can't remember.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, others who were present in that area reported

 3     that on that day when they saw you in that area, that they went through

 4     Kistanje, which was totally destroyed and smelled of bodies.  Do you --

 5     that also does not match very much with your recollection, does it?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I can only repeat that on the day when I was in

 7     Kistanje, I did not see a single house burning.  I did not notice a

 8     single body or anything that you have just indicated.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One of those who had seen you in that area on that

10     day was asked whether you were aware of the situation.  I'm referring to

11     the testimony of Mr. Hill; transcript page 3849 and 3850.  And he said,

12     Absolutely.  And perhaps I add to that that in that area, on the

13     9th of August, another person went to that area and said that he

14     encountered -- had an encounter with you in Kistanje municipality, and

15     that you would have asked him what they were doing in a restricted area,

16     that you gave them food, and that you then told them to return to the

17     UN compound.

18             Does that trigger any recollection as to the encounters you may

19     have had?  And as you said, you did see representatives of the

20     international community when you went to Kistanje.

21        A.   Yes, Your Honour, I said that on the day I was down there, I

22     spotted a member of the Canadian military police on the road.  I stopped,

23     I invited them to come and visit us.  I never hindered their movement

24     across the area of responsibility.  I never forbade them to move around.

25     On the contrary, we had received an order to allow them and enable them

Page 27444

 1     maximum freedom of movement across the entire area of responsibility.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, apparently your recollection is different

 3     from what that witness told us.  He said that later on that day, they

 4     drove through the town of Kistanje and that they had to close the windows

 5     of the car because of the heat emanating from the burning buildings.

 6             Did you ever observe or receive reports about, on the

 7     9th of August, still burning buildings in Kistanje?

 8        A.   I don't know whether I received a report about what you are

 9     describing, but let me repeat, once again, that all -- on the day, at the

10     moment when I was there, not a single house was ablaze, and these are the

11     facts.  That's what I noticed or didn't notice on the day when I was

12     there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you agree with me that if houses would have

14     been in flames, that it may have been very difficult to miss that, to not

15     observe that, if that was the case?

16        A.   Absolutely.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, of course, the Chamber is still puzzled by the

18     fact that some persons saw houses burning, and there were even reports of

19     HV soldiers going to houses and then those houses being in flames briefly

20     after that, that we are puzzled by the fact that you apparently did not

21     observe anything; whereas reports from internationals, but also a report

22     by Mr. Gugic on the 8th of August, give a totally different picture on

23     matters which you almost could not have missed to observe if they were

24     there.  Could you assist us in resolving this puzzle?

25        A.   Your Honour, if the commander of the Canadian military police was

Page 27445

 1     present there and if I was there, I don't know how many other military

 2     police officers were there.  Also, I believe that maybe two or three

 3     Canadian police officers were also there.  Would we have been sitting

 4     together or standing together in the middle of the road, and would we

 5     have been watching houses burning without doing nothing?  I'm sure that I

 6     would have done something.  I would have gone there, and I'm absolutely

 7     sure that the Canadians would have also behaved the same.

 8             I repeat, once again, I don't know when I was there.  I don't

 9     even know what time of day it was.  But when I was there, I did not see a

10     single house ablaze at that time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any specific reason why you went to

12     Kistanje on this day, which is by others reported as being the

13     9th of August?

14        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  I've already told you that we had received a

15     task to send some of the military police officers there to secure those

16     facilities, and I went to check how the task was being implemented.  I

17     wanted to see whether the men did their job, whether they were well

18     equipped, whether they were well informed and briefed about the task, and

19     whether they were performing their basic task, the one that they were

20     there for.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember when for the first time a military

22     police platoon was sent to Kistanje?

23        A.   I don't remember, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If I would tell you that a duty officer log-book

25     reported that on the 6th of August, at 20 minutes to 9.00 p.m., military

Page 27446

 1     policemen were sent to Kistanje, would you have any reasons to doubt the

 2     accuracy of such an entry in the log-book?

 3        A.   No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember what specific purpose was served by

 5     sending a platoon?  Was that just to protect the Orthodox monastery or --

 6     and the other facilities, or are you aware of any other reasons?  I'm

 7     asking you this also in the context of the report by Mr. Gugic and by the

 8     observations of others, but limiting myself to Mr. Gugic, who already on

 9     the 8th of August observed the chaotic situation, mass burnings,

10     et cetera.

11        A.   I know that before Operation Storm started, the company in

12     Sibenik had the task of securing particular facilities at the moment when

13     the members of the Croatian Army liberated the area.  That was the plan,

14     and that is why my military police unit went to Kistanje.  Now, whether

15     in the meantime the task of that unit was changed and whether anything

16     else changed, I cannot recall at this point in time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you reported to General Lausic about events the

18     9th and the 10th of August, in which report no mentioning is found at all

19     of any mass burning and/or looting.  In your report of the

20     10th of August, if you'd like to see it, but to see that there's no

21     mentioning there of something, if you'd like to look at it, it's fine,

22     but I think that the parties and the Chamber agree that there's not such

23     a report on mass burning or looting.

24             However, in the report of the 10th of August -- and perhaps we

25     could have a look at that, and that is D733.  Could we have that on the

Page 27447

 1     screen.

 2             In item 2 of this report, it's mentioned that the members of the

 3     unit are still guarding the two industrial facilities and the Orthodox

 4     monastery.  Here, again, if Mr. Gugic reports about mass burning, if two

 5     internationals are describing, with some detail -- any problems in

 6     receiving translation?  Do you receive translation at this moment?

 7        A.   Yes, I am.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, it is surprising that those who are guarding a

 9     monastery and other facilities would have missed such information as

10     extensively described by the internationals and being in accordance with

11     earlier observations by the SIS.  Do you have any explanation for that,

12     that where you may have missed, if it was there, the burning and looting,

13     why those who were stationed there would have missed that as well?

14        A.   Your Honour, as regards my reports that I received from the units

15     and then sent to the chief of the Administration of the Military Police,

16     I described what I learned.  Whether there was a special report about

17     Kistanje or apparently about Kistanje on the 10th, I don't know, I can't

18     remember.  However, if there had been a lot of arson and burning, I'm

19     sure that members of the military police should have reported that,

20     either in a regular report or an interim report, and I really don't know

21     how that was done.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

23             I just told you that no reference to burning or looting was found

24     in the reports of the 9th and the 10th of August.  The days prior to

25     that, do you remember whether reports were sent as you were supposed to

Page 27448

 1     do, that is, reports on what happened on the 6th, the 7th, and the 8th,

 2     because - and I'm now looking at the parties - such reports are not in

 3     evidence, from what the Chamber could find.  Could you tell us whether

 4     such reports were made and sent?

 5        A.   It is quite certain that we wrote reports every day, and it is

 6     quite certain that we sent those reports.  I don't know.  I don't

 7     understand how come they couldn't be found anywhere in the archives.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But you say they must have been there?

 9        A.   That's right.  It is quite certain that we compiled them.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  On a daily basis also for the 6th, the 7th, and the

11     8th?

12        A.   [No interpretation].

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber looked into the reports that are in

14     evidence, the reports you sent to General Lausic.  Nothing in those

15     reports is said about any burning and/or looting in the town of Knin.

16     Could you tell us whether this was ever reported, because, as you know,

17     we've seen some reports and evidence, but apparently some reports are

18     missing.  Did you report any burning and looting ongoing in Knin?

19        A.   Yes.  In addition to this report, the members of the crime

20     military police sent separate reports every day along their own line.  I

21     cannot remember right now whether that was in writing or orally.

22     However, at any rate, I do know that such incidents were reported and

23     that superiors were informed about such incidents.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You say these incidents were reported and superiors

25     were informed.  Was there any other action taken?

Page 27449

 1        A.   I cannot say specifically against how many persons military

 2     police initiated proceedings and filed criminal reports, or against how

 3     many persons had disciplinary reports filed against them to the

 4     Military Court, but certainly there were such reports.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Were people arrested for those purposes, as far as

 6     you know?

 7        A.   I cannot remember specifically.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you report this to General Lausic?

 9        A.   About what, specifically, Your Honour?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  About looting ongoing in Knin, burning, perhaps, in

11     Knin ongoing.

12        A.   It is quite certain that I informed him about all of the

13     incidents that occurred throughout the area, not only in the area of

14     Knin.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And was that in your reports?

16        A.   I beg your pardon.  About those that I knew of and those that I

17     found out about through the channels of regular communication.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Would those be in your written reports?

19        A.   I cannot recall whether everything was recorded in the written

20     reports, because written reports were compiled by the Operations Duty

21     Service and I could not always reach them.  But, at any rate, I informed

22     the Military Police Administration by telephone of all the knowledge that

23     I had and everything that I had received by way of reports in my area of

24     responsibility from the units there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, on the basis of the 2nd of August order, you

Page 27450

 1     were tasked with reporting, which reports would include, and I quote:

 2             "The status of crime in liberated areas and in zones of combat

 3     operations, number of crimes, crime reports filed, and escort of

 4     HV members who committed crimes."

 5             To report this by telephone looks quite uncommon, because giving

 6     such details by telephone, names, numbers of reports -- do you have an

 7     explanation, or was this reported in writing?

 8        A.   As for this telephone conversation of mine and that way of

 9     reporting, it was mostly in general terms.  I did not report on names or

10     specific cases.  In written reports, that had to be referred to more

11     specifically.  I don't know whether, in addition to these reports, there

12     are reports where members of the military who were in the same group that

13     I was in reported about this.  I don't know.  I simply do not remember

14     how or in which way -- well, how come some things are not in this report.

15     Were they sent through some other report?  Obviously, perhaps on that day

16     units had not reported anything to us.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we address the parties.

18             These reports of the 6th, 7th -- covering the 6th, the 7th, and

19     the 8th, are they available anywhere?  Because we have seen the

20     5th of August, we've seen the 9th, the 10th.

21             MR. MISETIC:  We haven't been able to locate the 6th and the 7th.

22     I will check to see if we have it for the 8th, to check to see if it's in

23     evidence, because I'm not certain.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be that we -- in our searches, that we missed

25     something.

Page 27451

 1             Mr. Carrier.

 2             MR. CARRIER:  We don't have reports for those days.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have reports for those days.  I would

 4     like, then, to move on.

 5             The next subject I'd like to ask you some questions about,

 6     Mr. Juric, is about the relations between the military police and its

 7     responsibilities in relation to civilians.  Could you tell us, what

 8     exactly was the role of the military police in relation to civilians that

 9     were found when you were there in Sector South?

10        A.   The military police had a twofold role in this respect.  As for

11     all civilians that would be found within the combat area, they were

12     supposed to evacuate them as soon as possible and as efficiently as

13     possible and hand them over to the civilian police that was organising

14     the collection centres.  As for finding civilians in the area of

15     responsibility, exclusive authority in the zone that does not belong to

16     classical combat, it is the civilian police that had that authority.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you consider "combat area"?  I mean, if you

18     moved in together with the troops and if there would have been no

19     resistance or no resistance anymore, would you then still have to

20     evacuate the civilians?

21        A.   No.  I don't know what I can answer specifically at what point

22     the zone of combat activity stops or starts.  At any rate, at the moment

23     when the units of the Croatian Army liberated a particular locality, and

24     when relative peace was established, the units of the military police and

25     civilian police relatively soon came to that area, so I can say that

Page 27452

 1     practically at the same time all units of the civilian police and all

 2     units of the military police would arrive within a liberated area.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Would they stay in the collection centres, these

 4     civilians?

 5        A.   I am not aware of that, Your Honours.  I don't know how it was

 6     organised later.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's say just before you left,

 8     11th of August, perhaps 12th of August, would there be any reason to keep

 9     civilians in the collection centres?

10        A.   I don't know.  I don't know how to answer this question.  Not all

11     civilians were in collection centres.  There were civilians who were --

12     well, when we're talking about Knin, itself, there were some civilians

13     who were within the UN camp.  Part of the civilians were in the areas of

14     Sinj and Sibenik.  I think that at the moment when all kinds of combat

15     activities stopped, in a way, it should have been possible for those

16     civilians to go back home.  I don't know how that was done and in which

17     way.  That was not within the scope of authority of the military police.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, nevertheless, the presence of civilians in

19     reception centres was part of reports by the military police.  Does the

20     name of Mr. Glavan --

21        A.   Yes, yes, he was an officer who was with me on the team, and he

22     was responsible for the work of the crime military police.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And he reports about civilians in reception centres.

24     You said it was not within the scope of the military police.

25     Nevertheless, it's part of a report dated the 11th of August by

Page 27453

 1     Mr. Glavan.

 2        A.   Perhaps he wrote how many people from the war zones was handed

 3     over to the civilian police, whereas you asked me how and in which way

 4     they were received in these centres and when they were supposed to be

 5     released from the centres.  My answer to that was that I was not aware of

 6     that part of the activities involved.  However, I know that all were

 7     transferred to a safe place from the combat areas.  Maybe it's that that

 8     Mr. Glavan is reporting about.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Glavan gives the numbers of people, both

10     prisoners of war in collection centres but also the number of civilians

11     at present, the 11th of August, in reception centres, so he does not

12     report on handing over.  If you'd like to have a look at this report

13     during the next break, I'll be glad to give it to you so that you can --

14     would you like to have a look at it and see whether there's any further

15     comment on your part?

16        A.   No, Your Honour, no.  No, I'm quite sure that my colleague

17     Mr. Glavan, in his report, speaks of the total number.  Now, whether it's

18     military persons or civilian persons who were transferred from the war

19     zones, or if we're talking about prisoners of war who were transferred

20     for their own safety, so that they would get out of the war zone as soon

21     as possible, and that these people, in a way, went through the hands of

22     the military police.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I'll briefly deal with one last subject

24     before the break.

25             As far as you're aware of, were the units of the 72nd or the

Page 27454

 1     73rd Military Police Battalions ever engaged in guarding cemeteries?

 2        A.   No, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this Chamber heard evidence in relation to the

 4     6th of August, and I'm referring to P875 [Realtime transcript read in

 5     error "P785"], and I quote from that statement:

 6             "Some of my military police were involved in the guarding of the

 7     Knin Cemetery, together with the civilian police."

 8             Does that in any way refresh your memory or are you not aware?

 9        A.   I cannot recall, Your Honour.  I really don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  In that statement, the person gives as the reason

11     that it was in order to protect those who were burying the bodies.  Does

12     this trigger any thoughts on the task of the military police in

13     protecting those who were burying bodies?  Is there anything in your

14     recollection which would tell you anything about, if such a task was

15     performed, when it would have been handed over to the civilian police

16     again?

17        A.   No.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the whole matter does not --

19        A.   No, Your Honour.  No, Your Honour.  I can say with 100 per cent

20     certainty that I do not remember any such thing having happened or that I

21     knew in any way that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll then have a break first.

23             We'll resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

Page 27455

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed, Mr. Carrier, that you

 3     would like to address the Chamber before the witness comes in.

 4             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just very briefly.

 5             Today, you put to the witness that in August 2nd -- or he was

 6     tasked with reporting, and went through some criminal reporting.  I'm

 7     assuming you referred to D844, and it's not clear from that document

 8     whether it was ever sent to --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether I was referring to that

10     document.  I can tell you what I was referring to -- let me have a look.

11             MR. MISETIC:  I think it's D267, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think I referred to 2D844.

13             MR. CARRIER:  Yes, and, Mr. President, just looking at that

14     document, and Mr. Misetic perhaps mirrors the confusion, it would seem

15     that the August 2nd order that you have referred to before was D267 or

16     D268, whereas D844 hadn't actually been sent to Mr. Juric.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have a look.  D844 is sent by General Lausic

18     and is addressed to the Command of the Military Police Detachment,

19     3rd Company, Zadar, 4th Company, Sibenik, and, fourth, Dubrovnik.  So --

20     and then let me just see whether I find the same or similar language --

21             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I can assist because I was going to do this in

24     cross.  The order from General Lausic to Mr. Juric --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 27456

 1             MR. MISETIC:  -- has not been admitted yet into evidence, and I

 2     was going to do that in my cross.  It's 65 ter 2193.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any -- let's say the following.  I

 4     put this to the witness, even if I referred to a wrong document, is there

 5     any dispute about whether he was supposed to report on the crime

 6     situation?

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I was going to show the witness that it was in

 8     D844 --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. MISETIC:  -- which was an order directly from Mr. Lausic to

11     the 4th Company of the 72nd MPs.  The substance of the report in D844 is

12     the same as what Mr. Lausic issued in 65 ter 2193 to the officers he was

13     sending into the field, just so there's no confusion.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So we -- do we have any problem in substance or is

15     it just to correct me - I think you're right, Mr. Carrier - that I at

16     least referred to a document which was not directly addressed to

17     Mr. Juric?

18             MR. CARRIER:  I'd have to check the document that Mr. Misetic

19     just referred to and make sure --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's do that and see.  If after

21     cross-examination any matter remains, we'll then hear from the parties.

22     And if I have been inaccurate in this respect, my apologies.  I try, as

23     you all do, try to be as accurate as possible.

24             MR. CARRIER:  Thank you.

25             And just -- I apologise, just while we're on the subject of

Page 27457

 1     correcting things, in the transcript today, you referenced document -- or

 2     at least it showed up in the transcript, on page 52, line 21, as "P785,"

 3     and I believe it should be P875.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, I think Mr. Carrier is correct on that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  785, and you say it should be 875.  Yes.  I intended

 6     to refer to P875.

 7             MR. CARRIER:  And finally, Mr. President, I understand that you

 8     had offered to have Mr. Juric look at an order --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  He seemed not to be very much interested.

10             MR. CARRIER:  No, clearly he wasn't interested, although I think

11     what he was explaining was that he had received reports about civilians

12     being handed over to -- by the MPs, and there are a number of reports,

13     just for the record.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying that this was not reported.  I was

15     just inviting him to look at this specific document I referred to.  I

16     remember that there are such reports which -- then anything else?  If

17     not, could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, I'd like to ask you about any dealings

20     you may have had with Mr. Cermak.  Did he play any role in co-ordinating

21     co-operation between civil and the military police?

22        A.   Mr. Cermak was appointed the garrison commander.  He organised a

23     couple of meetings.  I've already told you that those meetings were

24     attended by a lot of people who discussed a lot of things.

25     General Cermak was not my superior.  As the garrison commander, he did

Page 27458

 1     have the right to issue tasks to the military police in terms of

 2     implementing security details, checks, and similar things.  However, I

 3     don't think that he played any major roles with regard to the military

 4     police.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You said he had a right to issue tasks to the

 6     military police.  Could you tell us on what basis he had that right or

 7     that authority?

 8        A.   Duties, tasks, and whatever the military police had, in keeping

 9     with the rules.  Every officer had the right to issue requirements and

10     tasks that the military police then implemented if they were in

11     accordance with the area of work and the authorities of the military

12     police.  In that case, the military police were duty-bound to carry them

13     out in the way prescribed by the scope of their work.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the Chamber has received, although, a limited

15     number of documents in which orders are given by Mr. Cermak and which

16     were sent to the -- sometimes, among others, to the military police.  I'd

17     just like to put them to you to see whether you have any recollection.

18             First - and for the parties it's D503, and I'd avoid to have

19     everything on the screen again and again - in which General Cermak orders

20     that a team, made up of members of the military police and personnel from

21     the Knin police, should be set up with the task of finding the following

22     UNCRO vehicles.  Apparently, UNCRO vehicles had disappeared or had been

23     stolen, and General Cermak orders setting up a mixed team, military

24     police and personnel from the Knin Police Station.  Do you remember such

25     an order?

Page 27459

 1        A.   I can't remember -- with 100 per cent certainty, I can't remember

 2     that order.  However, if you say that it was drafted, then I'm sure that

 3     it was, which confirms what I've already said.  General Cermak issued a

 4     task pursuant to a piece of information that he had received about a

 5     crime having been committed, and that the perpetrators had to be

 6     discovered.  And in this case, as you have just said, some vehicles had

 7     been stolen.  This certainly fell within the scope of the work of the

 8     military police, and the military police were duty-bound to accept that

 9     task and implement that task.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, there is an order which is, to some extent,

11     similar, dated the 12th of August, in which teams are ordered to be

12     constituted to find equipment that apparently had been stolen or at least

13     which was missing from UNCRO.  Would that -- do you have any specific

14     recollection of that?  It's about earth-diggers and trucks and Land

15     Rovers.

16        A.   Just like before, I don't specifically remember any such order.

17     However, obviously General Cermak received information from UN members,

18     and then he shaped them as orders and issued them to the civilian police,

19     and ordered them to find the perpetrators of such crimes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you consider this to be in the same range as the

21     previous one we discussed and within the competence of Mr. Cermak; is

22     that -- the previous one about the vehicles?

23        A.   Precisely so.  This was not only within the competence of

24     Mr. Cermak or General Cermak.  The military police was duty-bound to

25     receive any information, record that knowledge, and follow up on any such

Page 27460

 1     information.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Earlier, you talked about tasks being given by

 3     Mr. Cermak to the military police.  Do you consider this in the context

 4     of tasking or just informing?

 5        A.   I would consider both cases as General Cermak having information

 6     that was not available to the civilian police, and that he issued an

 7     order -- or, rather, a task to follow up on such information.  And both

 8     police forces had the authority to act upon such information and carry

 9     out the tasks issued to them with this regard.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, another document - for the parties, I'm

11     referring to D788 - contains what is written on paper as an order which

12     is sent to the military police and the archives, not to any other police

13     organisation, and which says, the order:

14             "Control all entrances to the UNCRO barracks, including the main

15     gate."

16             And, second:

17             "Particularly, checks are required when refugees leave the

18     barracks.  Do not allow them to leave without adequate authorisation."

19             I don't want to go too much in the subject matter of the order,

20     but did you consider this to be a kind of order or giving tasks, as you

21     mentioned before, which was within the competence of Mr. Cermak, or did

22     you not consider an order of this content to fall within that scope?

23        A.   General Cermak communicated directly with UN members who were

24     billeted in the area of Knin.  It seems that they had a conversation or

25     talks as to how they would check the entry of people and their movement,

Page 27461

 1     and how they would protect the area.  If an order was drafted in a way to

 2     give the military police authority to protect that area, that would have

 3     been within the scope of the military police.  If they were asked to

 4     prevent people from exiting the area without any authorisation, that

 5     would also be within the scope of the work of the military police, and I

 6     personally don't see a problem there.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And did you consider it within the competence

 8     of Mr. Cermak to give you, by this order, that task?

 9        A.   I don't know the date, I don't know the context.  Maybe you

10     could --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  8th [Realtime transcript read in error "2nd"] of

12     August, 1995.  The transcript reads "2nd."  Perhaps I was unclear.  It is

13     the 8th of August.

14        A.   Obviously, the general decided to refer that to the military

15     police because that case involved army members in the region.  Those were

16     members of the UN who were there, and I believe that he was governed by

17     that when he conveyed that information to the military police and not to

18     the civilian police.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If such an order was addressed to you, to

20     guard the main entrance, was this also such an order which you felt

21     duty-bound to follow?

22        A.   In terms of what I said previously, if that was to secure and

23     protect an area of some military significance, which it was, indeed, in

24     this case, I would see this as a regular military police task and I would

25     implement that.  I would carry that out.

Page 27462

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  In relation to freedom of movement both -- of UNCRO

 2     elements, we have seen an order -- at least a document with "Order" on

 3     it, dated the 8th of August, which was sent both to the Knin military

 4     police and the MUP, in which it is stated that all UNCRO elements with

 5     clearly-displayed insignia may move freely in the areas of Knin and

 6     Drnis.  They are advised to use the main roads.  Would this, as far as

 7     you are concerned, fall within -- would you accept this as an order which

 8     was given within the competence of Mr. Cermak and which you would feel

 9     that you'd have to follow?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  As I've already stated previously, members had

11     the freedom of movement.  Namely, I received information, and I can't

12     remember whether that was from the Administration of the Military Police

13     or from somebody from the Ministry of Defence, that we were duty-bound to

14     guarantee the freedom of movement to all UN members who were billeted in

15     our area of responsibility.  It was only after that, after that

16     information was received and after I had issued a task to my units, that

17     this particular order was issued.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You say this order came at the moment where you had

19     already prepared and organised the implementation of orders or

20     information you had received previous to this order being issued by

21     General Cermak; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, I was privy to that information much before that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There is an order of the 8th of August which is

24     addressed -- at least is sent to the military police and the Knin Police

25     Station.  The order -- the content of the order is that UNCRO helicopters

Page 27463

 1     must be inspected before each flight, and the inspection could be carried

 2     out by military police according to previously-submitted flight plans and

 3     in co-operation with UN and EU liaison officers.  I leave alone other

 4     matters, such as movement of humanitarian convoys and the movement of

 5     UNCRO vehicles delivering food and equipment.  I would like to focus on

 6     the first part, UNCRO helicopters being inspected.  Is that -- first of

 7     all, is this 8th of August order an order you remember?

 8        A.   No, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did -- as far as you know, did the military police

10     ever inspect UNCRO helicopters before they took off?

11        A.   Not in this form.  We assisted security forces when VIP persons

12     arrived in the region, and then we carried out anti-sabotage checks and

13     similar checks.  I don't remember this specific case that you've just

14     described.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Juric, you told us that if you were tasked

16     in this way by documents which contain the word "order," that you felt

17     duty-bound to do what you were tasked with.  Was there ever any

18     discussion about that, Do we have to do what Mr. Cermak asks from us or

19     tasks us with?  Was there any discussion ever, any dispute, about his

20     authority to give you those tasks and you being duty-bound to perform

21     them?

22        A.   I don't remember any specific discussions about that, and I also

23     don't remember any tasks or General Cermak issuing anything in the form

24     of order that would have contradicted the work and activities of the

25     military police as described and regulated by the rules.  In such a case,

Page 27464

 1     I'm sure that some of the military police members who would have received

 2     such an order would have come back to General Cermak, telling him that

 3     that was not within the scope and authority of the military police, and

 4     he would have also informed his superiors in the military police.  And

 5     I'm sure that a decision would be made as to how to go on about

 6     implementing that particular task.

 7             You have to know that we were terribly under-staffed, and

 8     whenever people were assigned to carry out some tasks, that would have

 9     reduced the policing capacities and their ability to perform everyday

10     tasks.  And that was the number-one rule that guided us in our everyday

11     work.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'd like to move on to another subject.

13             Military police patrols, would they be confined to the main roads

14     and intersections and crossroads, or would they also go into the depth of

15     the terrain, apart from the main roads?

16        A.   Patrols mainly stuck to main roads for two reasons.  We did not

17     have enough vehicles or personnel at our disposal, and, on the other

18     hand, there was a fear that much of the area was contaminated by mines.

19     And for those two reasons, we could not have many patrols at the same

20     time and we could not send them very far into the depth of the territory.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the Chamber received evidence that some of

22     those who were still in active service would go home at night in their

23     villages.  Now, could you explain why it was safe enough for them to go

24     to the villages, whereas you felt unsafe to go into the terrain?  I'm now

25     talking about smaller roads, villages, rather than the main roads.  I'm

Page 27465

 1     not talking about going off-road.

 2        A.   When I said "main roads," I meant asphalt roads, and we stuck to

 3     those.  That was our principal work.  Small auxiliary roads could not be

 4     covered, due to the lack of vehicles and lack of personnel.  A lot of

 5     people, civilians and members of the Croatian Army, did want to go and

 6     check on their houses, and if they wanted to do that, they could not have

 7     been prevented by us, because they were more familiar with the terrain

 8     than us and it was their own responsibility that they went to check on

 9     their properties, on their houses and their farms.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

11        A.   And if you will allow me just one more thing.  Please take into

12     consideration the size of that area of responsibility, as opposed to the

13     number of police officers that we had at our disposal, and how many

14     check-points we had to man at all times in order to carry out that part

15     of our responsibility.  You will understand that we had very few people

16     at our disposal, and we could not increase the number of our patrols and

17     extend their working hours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at D1533, paragraph 12.

19             Madam Registrar, just out of an abundance of caution, could you

20     check whether there was any protection.  If so, it should not be shown to

21     the public.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I have got two times the B/C/S on my screen, rather

24     than one English and -- there we are.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I certainly don't have an objection,

Page 27466

 1     but I just want to make sure that I haven't missed any additional e-mails

 2     from Chambers about exhibits to be used with this witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be that we missed this one.  That is, then,

 4     our apologies for that.  I know that it was added at a late stage.  And

 5     it makes the Chamber more humble in criticising not fully reporting, but

 6     if you'd have a similar forgiveness as you often show to each other, then

 7     the Chamber would highly appreciate that.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Certainly, Your Honour.

 9             As I've said, obviously this is one we're very familiar with, but

10     just in case there are any additional ones, it would be helpful.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think so at this moment.

13             Could you have a look at paragraph 12, and you see -- let me just

14     check.  No, I'd like you to look at the end of this paragraph, and we

15     have to move slowly from this page into the English.  It is about

16     Brigadier Biskic issuing tasks to secure the depth of the area within the

17     newly liberated territories.  And then he lists a number of activities

18     under A up to and including E.

19             Could we move to the next page in English.

20             You see some measures are indicated here.  Could you please look

21     at the last one:

22             "... to travel only via the main roadways, to avoid side roads or

23     short-cuts when travelling at night."

24             The Chamber wondered, in this respect, how you could effectively

25     secure the depth of the area when you primarily stay on the main roads.

Page 27467

 1        A.   Every day, every evening, we engaged in such small-scale analyses

 2     as to how we managed to cover the area.  In essence, on the basis of the

 3     reports we received for the previous day, we would try to move blockade

 4     check-points, and somehow, in this way, to channel these small auxiliary

 5     roads to bigger roads, where we would actually have the checks.  With the

 6     personnel we had available, we tried to do the best we could.  When we

 7     changed the check-points every day and when we changed the directions

 8     involved, and when we changed patrols, we tried to ensure this presence.

 9             I don't know specifically whether at that particular meeting

10     Brigadier Biskic presented these tasks, I cannot remember exactly, and

11     whether it was stated specifically that we should not take small roads

12     and paths during the night.  But, at any rate, he was probably guided by

13     the number of people available, the number of vehicles available, and the

14     fact that quite a few of these very small roads had been mined.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In this context and in this same statement,

16     reference is made to something that happened on the 11th August 1995 in

17     the area of Derala, where 20 members of the 141st Brigade of the

18     Croatian Army were killed, as an indication of the danger going off the

19     main roads.  Could you tell us exactly, do you have any recollection of

20     this event where over 20 members were killed?

21        A.   Yes, I remember that.  However, I don't remember the specific

22     details involved and how this happened.  I think that they were ambushed

23     or something like that.  I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty how

24     that happened.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us, do you have any specific

Page 27468

 1     knowledge as to where Derala is?  And what is it; is it a hill, a

 2     mountain, a village?

 3        A.   To tell you the truth right now, I really don't know.  I cannot

 4     say.  However, at the time of this particular information, I must have

 5     known roughly where it was, and it's quite certain that we would have

 6     looked it up on the map.  As far as I can remember, one of the soldiers

 7     who got killed on that day there was related to Captain Glavan, who was

 8     on the team with me, and that's why I remember that particular event.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Did I understand from one of your previous answers,

10     when we were talking about patrolling and the effectiveness of the

11     measures taken, that the check-points were all, or most of them, on the

12     main roads and intersections?

13        A.   I would not say that they were only on main roads.  Our intent

14     was to channel the smaller roads towards the main roads as much as

15     possible, or, rather, those roads where we thought point B could be

16     reached from point A, and in that way we thought we would increase our

17     efficiency.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you -- at the time when you were there, did you

19     have check-points manned by civilian and military police?  I think you

20     earlier referred to that kind of co-ordination decisions.  Did that

21     happen, that the mixed check-points were set up, when you were there?

22        A.   Quite certainly, but I cannot tell you exactly now at which

23     positions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This Chamber heard evidence that uniformed

25     police, and that was primarily civilian police, would not often visit

Page 27469

 1     villages which were situated at a distance from the main roads.  Would

 2     the same be true for the military police?

 3        A.   Well, I cannot tell you with 100 per cent certainty, I cannot say

 4     yes or no.  But, at any rate, whenever we received information that

 5     something was happening and when we were able to send a patrol, we would

 6     certainly do so, regardless of whether it had to do with a village that

 7     was on an asphalt road or beyond an asphalt road.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Juric, the Chamber has at this moment no further

 9     questions for you.  I'd like to -- I don't think that it makes much sense

10     to start cross-examination at this moment, Mr. Carrier, five minutes

11     before -- four minutes before we have to adjourn.

12             Could the parties give us an indication as the time they would

13     need, now knowing what the examination-in-chief has covered?

14             MR. CARRIER:  I hope to finish within the first session tomorrow

15     morning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I hear from the Defence.  Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Then I would hope to finish within the second

18     session tomorrow morning.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Second session.

20             Mr. Kay, don't tell me that you will hope to finish in the third

21     session.

22             MR. KAY:  No, Your Honour.  It depends very much what goes

23     before, but it would certainly be a session.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Mikulicic.

25             MR. MIKULICIC:  I would have no questions, Your Honour, as the

Page 27470

 1     matter stands now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Now we are at the -- tomorrow we have three sessions.

 4     Mr. Carrier takes one, Mr. Misetic takes another, Mr. Kay doesn't take

 5     less than one session.

 6             Mr. Juric, I am sure that the parties will do their utmost best

 7     to see whether we can conclude your examination tomorrow, but there's no

 8     guarantee for that.

 9             I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone

10     about your testimony, whether that is the testimony you have given

11     already or whether that's testimony still to be given tomorrow and

12     perhaps on Monday.

13             We'd like to see you back tomorrow, Friday, the 5th of March,

14     9.00 in the morning, in this same Courtroom III.

15             We adjourn until then.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of March,

19                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.