Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28410

 1                           Tuesday, 20 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Mr. Balunovic, good morning to you.  I would like to remind that

14     you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the

15     beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole

16     truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  BRANKO BALUNOVIC [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to continue your

20     cross-examination?

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes Mr. President.  Thank you.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hedaraly: [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Balunovic.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we have P2718 on the screen, please.

25        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, yesterday you discussed the operation in Grubori

Page 28411

 1     on 25 August 1995, and you provided some information as to the different

 2     groups that were in charge of the -- of the operation.  And I just want

 3     to ask you whether the map that will come up on the screen for you, if

 4     you can confirm that that accurately represents the axis of operations of

 5     the four groups.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can just have the B/C/S enlarged, please.

 7     Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can you confirm that this is -- accurately represents the axis of

 9     operations of the four groups?

10        A.   Yes, this accurately represents our deployment on the ground.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at the beginning of the operation, Mr. Celic

12     told you that they there may be civilians and that they would have been

13     registered by UNPROFOR and that, therefore, nothing should happen to

14     them; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   And you testified yesterday about Mr. Jurendic, from your group,

17     finding two civilians, and that's at transcript reference 28346 to 348.

18     And then Mr. Celic told to you wait and that these civilians would be

19     collected; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.  At the very beginning of our search, we found the

21     civilians.  However, I didn't speak to Mr. Celic.  It was

22     Mr. Ante Jurendic who contacted him on the radio, and, as far as I can

23     remember, all of the communication involved the two of them.  I was close

24     by and I could hear and see everything.

25        Q.   And is it right that the reason that Mr. Celic wanted the

Page 28412

 1     civilians to be collected was that he was worried that they may be harmed

 2     by your group?

 3        A.   I don't know whether that was the reason.  But I believe that

 4     that was a planned procedure.

 5        Q.   Is it not the case that there were some members of your group

 6     that he considered to be a little more extreme and that he was worried

 7     that they would harm the civilians if he left them with your group or

 8     with those members of your group?

 9        A.   That might have been a reason as well, yes.

10        Q.   Now, as you proceeded on the operation, the shooting you heard

11     was from the -- was from your right; correct?

12        A.   I don't know.  I can't say that I heard shots from the right.  I

13     actually told you that it was very difficult, and it is very difficult to

14     determine where shots come from, when you're in the field, as a result of

15     the configuration of the terrain.  You have echo, forest, and all other

16     circumstances which may make it difficult to tell where a sound comes

17     from.  But, yes, I did hear shots during our scouring of the terrain.

18        Q.   And that when you heard the shots, you moved towards the

19     direction where they were coming from, which was the hamlet of Grubori,

20     and you ended up on the left of that hamlet; is that right?

21        A.   Well, what I can remember at this moment is that there were

22     contacts on the radio, conversations on the radio, around Grubori, and

23     somebody said during that communication that they had encountered

24     problems in the village of Grubori, and that is when I halted my group,

25     and I stopped their progress.

Page 28413

 1        Q.   And when you reached Grubori, or the hamlet where there was

 2     trouble, the shooting had stopped; do you remember that?

 3        A.   I don't remember any such detail.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you 65 ter 7548, which is the interview you

 5     gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2004 and see whether that

 6     refreshes your memory.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we could have page 141, please.  If we go

 8     down the page.

 9        Q.   At the bottom it starts the question:

10             "So you heard what you believe were rifle shot [sic], how long

11     did they go on for?"

12             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can turn the page.

13        Q.   And your answer is:

14             "I cannot tell you how long it lasted, I can tell you that when

15     we moved from our search directions, to the left flank of this hamlet,

16     where we went to secure the left flank of that hamlet, by the time we

17     reached that hamlet, the shooting had stopped."

18             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we can also go at page 146 of the same

19     interview, so a few minutes later.  If we can move down a little bit.

20        Q.   The question --

21             MR. HEDARALY:  The bottom of the page, please.  Thank you.

22        Q.   The question at line 21 in English is:

23             "Okay.  When you got to the village and took up your elevated

24     positions, were there still shooting being fire [sic] or had it stopped?"

25             And your response:

Page 28414

 1             "At the time that we arrived, the shooting had stopped."

 2             Does that refresh your memory as to whether the shooting had

 3     stopped when you arrived at the edge of the hamlet of Grubori?

 4        A.   I can't say that this refreshes my memory.  But since that

 5     conversation took place while my memory was still fresh, and while I

 6     remembered all those events better, I believe that this is an accurate

 7     description.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Balunovic.  That's fair enough.

 9             And do you also remember that you only stayed there at the edge

10     of the hamlet for about 15 minutes?

11        A.   I believe so.

12        Q.   And while you were there, you could see other members of the

13     Lucko Unit in the hamlet; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.  I believe that I saw people moving about the village -- in

15     the village.

16        Q.   And the people you saw moving were in special police uniforms;

17     correct?

18        A.   During the operation, the time -- the weather was changeable.  It

19     was raining, and a lot of people wore raincoats to protect themselves

20     from the rain.  And I believe that those people that I saw mostly wore

21     such raincoats.

22        Q.   And did you see any -- any -- as they were referred to, Chetniks,

23     in or around Grubori on that day?

24        A.   No, I did not notice any such thing.

25        Q.   And you also testified yesterday that you did not see any fire or

Page 28415

 1     smoke coming from the village of Grubori.  But in your interview to the

 2     Office of the Prosecutor, you also stated that if someone threw a grenade

 3     in a house, the fire could start only a half an hour later; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Well, I can't tell you precisely when the fire would start

 6     burning.  What I meant to say was that such a house did not have to start

 7     burning immediately upon somebody threw a hand-grenade in it.  What I'm

 8     saying is that somebody could have thrown a hand-grenade in a house, and

 9     it could, indeed, start burning, only half an hour later.  That's what I

10     meant to say.

11        Q.   Okay.  And we'll get to your trip back to Grubori later.  But

12     just briefly, when you went back to Grubori the first time with Mr. Sacic

13     and Mr. Celic, did you notice houses being burned?

14        A.   Yes.  As far as I can remember, there was at least one house on

15     fire, I can say now.

16             I remember a body that I saw in a burnt house, and the body was

17     charred as well.

18        Q.   When you saw one house on fire, did that mean that at that time

19     one house was still burning, or are you talking about houses that had

20     been burnt recently?

21        A.   No.  The house was no longer on fire.  On that day when we were

22     in Grubori, there was neither fire nor smoke, as far as I can remember,

23     so there had been burning before.

24        Q.   And do you remember how many -- if you saw any other houses

25     having been burnt other than -- other than that one?

Page 28416

 1        A.   I can't tell you now.  The scene of that body in that house is

 2     what I remember.  That's why I can be sure that I saw one such house.  I

 3     don't know.  I can't remember any of the others.  I can't remember now.

 4        Q.   And yesterday at 28351, for the record, you testified that you

 5     believe some members of the Lucko Unit had hand-held rocket-launchers or

 6     Zoljas on 25 August 1995.  Do you remember that testimony?

 7        A.   I believe that I said that there might have been people carrying

 8     those weapons.  Those were customary weapons, standard issue.  So I

 9     suppose that there were people who had them.

10        Q.   Let me show you P625, which is a list of weapons that the members

11     of the Lucko Unit who participated in that operation had on that day.

12             I don't know, Mr. Balunovic, if can you see on the left side of

13     your screen.  We can -- we can zoom -- we can zoom it.  If you can't see

14     it, let us know.

15             Can you see that table and the entry with your name?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Can you, first of all, confirm that those were the weapons that

18     you had on that day, or that were assigned to you, next to your name?

19        A.   I believe that this is an excerpt from a list, from our arms

20     depot, where you see who was issued with what, with what weapons.  And

21     the weapons in question are those that were registered in the depot and

22     that would be returned to the depot if one of our members were -- was

23     being transferred to another unit or left the service.

24             The list would then be pulled out to see what weapons such a

25     person had been issued with and what weapons he was supposed to return.

Page 28417

 1             The list did not contain any information about the number of

 2     hand-grenades or Zoljas.  Those were not weapons.  Those were materiels

 3     which was probably registered and recorded on different lists.  They were

 4     probably showing how many such things people and how many they used.

 5     During the war, it was very difficult to keep precise records of -- of

 6     the materiel, but when it comes to the weaponry, there were very precise

 7     records as to how many of those were issued and to whom.

 8        Q.   Do you know how many -- you said that Zoljas would not appear on

 9     that list but that they were standard issue.  Do you know how many would

10     have been issued, for example, in your group on that day?

11        A.   No, I wouldn't be able to tell you.  I don't have that

12     information.

13        Q.   Can you tell us approximately?  Would it be one usually per

14     group, or one per unit?  Or can you give us any -- any frame of reference

15     as to how many of those -- how many Zoljas would be in the group?  I know

16     you can't remember specifically, but just give us a sense.

17        A.   No, I can't give you even an approximate number.

18             During war operations, and during war, before that particular

19     operation, people could obtain those things either from our depot or when

20     we captured enemy soldiers.  They could keep their weapons, be it

21     hand-grenades or Zoljas and continue using them in further operations.

22             Therefore, it was very difficult to know who had them and how

23     many.

24        Q.   And do you remember hearing any Zoljas being fired on the 25th of

25     August at the Grubori operation?

Page 28418

 1        A.   Well, besides our unit, there were other units in the field, and

 2     I remember that there were a few detonations during that operation, but I

 3     can't tell you from which position the sound came.

 4             As I'm saying, there were several other units in addition to

 5     ours, so it is -- I'm not sure whether that sound came from our group or

 6     from one of the neighbouring groups.

 7        Q.   You just testified earlier today that could you see some members

 8     of the special police with raincoats that they wore.  What -- what colour

 9     were their raincoats, or can you describe them for us?

10        A.   I can't tell you the exacts colour, because when you are at a

11     distance it is not easy to tell.  But I can assume that those raincoats

12     were either dark green or camouflage raincoats.  I, myself, had one such

13     raincoat and I used it from time to time.  In that particular operation,

14     I can't remember even what type of raincoat I had on me.

15        Q.   Let me move to the next day, the second day of the operation, the

16     Ramljane operation.  And I know you testified about this quite a bit

17     yesterday so I only have a few questions.

18             And at 28360, you stated:

19             "Someone opened fire, and we noticed two uniformed individuals

20     ahead of us.  I think somebody said that they were shooting at us and

21     people fired back at them.  I think that both of them fled."

22             Now, do you remember hearing at some point that these shoots, in

23     fact, came from HV soldiers?

24        A.   No, I don't remember.

25        Q.   Let me show your interview again, 65 ter 7548.

Page 28419

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  And if I can start at page 288.

 2        Q.   And you see at line 10 in the English it starts:

 3             "Did you hear any weapons being discharged?"

 4             And then your answer is:

 5             "There was some shooting.  I do not know from which group,

 6     allegedly they saw two persons, they referred to them as Chetniks, that

 7     they fired at them.

 8             "Q.  And to your knowledge, were any people captured?

 9             "A.  No.

10             "Q.  Okay.  And was this soon after the search started?"

11             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can turn the page.

12        Q.   Answer:

13             "I cannot tell because I cannot remember when we started the

14     search, and I cannot remember how long it lasted, so I cannot tell you."

15             Then the question is:

16             "Did you -- did your, the group under your command, did you get

17     asked do assist in relation to these two Chetniks that came into view and

18     be been seen?"

19             And your answer there is:

20             "No, far as I can recall, I think what happened was that these

21     two Chetniks, alleged Chetniks, were members of the Croatian Army, who

22     were at the wrong place, at the wrong time.

23             "Q.  Okay.  Were they identified?

24             "A.  I do not know, I don't think so."

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Turn the page one last time.

Page 28420

 1        Q.    "I cannot recall.  I mean, this is one memory that I have.  I

 2     can't recall if I heard it through my -- the communication lines, this

 3     being discussed, but somehow it's in my memory."

 4             Now, Mr. Balunovic, do you remember ever hearing that the two

 5     people that you were -- heard were shooting at your group were, in fact,

 6     members of the Croatian Army who were at the wrong place at the wrong

 7     time?

 8        A.   But I am telling you, since I gave this statement earlier on,

 9     when my memory was fresh, it's possible that things happened the way I

10     had put it then.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  The first part of the witness's answer was not

13     translated, Your Honour.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  I heard it.  It's on the transcript when the

15     witness said, I can't remember, but I heard it, but I think there was

16     some overlap.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we invite the witness to repeat his answer.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said was that I don't

19     remember now, or, rather, my memory is very poor, in respect of that

20     event.  However, I made this statement when my memory was fresh, and it's

21     possible that it was that way or, rather, that I believe it was actually

22     the way that I had put it then.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That covers the whole of the answer,

24     especially the beginning, Mr. Kuzmanovic.  Yes.

25             Please proceed.

Page 28421

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   And as far as -- as far as you can recall, you, yourself, did not

 3     see any clashes with Chetniks that day; correct?

 4        A.   I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the word "carke" [phoen].

 5        Q.   You, yourself, did not -- were not involved in any exchange of

 6     gun-fire with enemy -- with enemy forces; correct?

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, I did not open gun-fire, but I do

 8     remember that there was fire.

 9        Q.   That's what I want to clarify.  So you heard gun-fire, and then

10     you were told what it was by different people, but you, yourself, do not

11     know where or who was firing; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, I think that's the way it was.

13        Q.   Now you also testified at some length yesterday about the

14     argument between General Markac and Mr. Drljo at the end of that

15     operation.  And you stated at 28363:

16             "If I remember correctly, he started," Mr. Drljo, "started

17     swearing and the oaths were directed at Mr. Markac.  He said that he had

18     set alight everything, whatever he could or whatever he wanted."

19             Now, to your knowledge, was Mr. Drljo ever disciplined for

20     burning these houses?

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, if we can get an exact citation to

22     that quote.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  I think I just read it, 28363.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  There it is.  All right.  Thank you.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  You're welcome.

Page 28422

 1        Q.   Do you want me to repeat my question, Mr. Balunovic?

 2        A.   It's not necessary to repeat the question.

 3             I would just like to say that this quotation does not match what

 4     I had actually said.

 5             Mr. Drljo said - most probably said - that he set everything on

 6     fire and, What can you do to me?  But the quote today was different.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And do you remember whether Mr. Drljo was ever disciplined

 8     for setting everything on fire, as you just put it?

 9        A.   Well, as far as I can remember -- or, rather, I don't remember

10     that he was disciplined in any way, but that does not necessarily mean

11     that that had not taken place.

12        Q.   Okay.  I want to now talk about your trips back to Grubori, when

13     you went back to Grubori on the following days and some source of

14     confusion I want to clear up with you.

15             Isn't it the case that you, in fact, went twice to Grubori, once

16     in a small group with Mr. Sacic and Mr. Celic; and the second time in a

17     larger group that also included Mr. Cermak?

18        A.   I don't remember now.  I think I was there only once.  But I

19     don't remember whether I was there another time as well.

20        Q.   We have still your interview on the screen.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to page 212.

22        Q.   And you see at line 12, there's a question:

23             "Did you go to Grubori in a group containing Mr. Cermak?"

24             And then your answer:

25             "Yes, but I also went there the day before.  The day I went with

Page 28423

 1     Mr. Cermak is the day that he gave this statement for the television."

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  If you can go down.

 3        Q.   "I cannot recall if all of this happened in one day, or in two

 4     consequent days.  I went to the village once with Mr. Sacic and

 5     Mr. Celic, I cannot recall if somebody else was there as well, when is

 6     the first time I learned about these victims.  And then, I do not recall

 7     if it was the following day, or that same day when I went in the group

 8     with Mr. Cermak."

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can also go to page 284.

10        Q.   And then at line 17 again:

11             "Q.  I think you said you went to Grubori twice, is that

12     correct"?

13             The answer is:

14             "Yes."

15             "Q.  And the first time when you went there was it Mr. Sacic; is

16     that correct."

17             "A.  Yes."

18             And then the same discussion happens when you say you don't

19     remember exactly when the second time was, the same or the next day.  And

20     in your interview in 2005, a few months later, at 65 ter 7549 --

21             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can have that as well, for the record.

22        Q.   At page 75, there's a question about whether you went to Grubori

23     before or after the meeting in Knin.

24             And then if you -- if we move down:

25             "Q.  Is it correct that at some time on whatever day it was, you

Page 28424

 1     went into Grubori village with other members of the special police?"

 2             Then your answer is:

 3             "I was in the village of Grubori twice ... the first time it was,

 4     of course, when I saw those bodies there."

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Turn the page.

 6        Q.   "And the second time was when Mr. Cermak was making a statement

 7     for the media there in that village."

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   And then you were asked again:

10             "Can you just confirm that that was the same day or not?"

11             Once again you say:

12             "I cannot confirm that, I cannot negate that, I'm not sure about

13     that."

14             So, Mr. Balunovic, reading these various portions of your

15     interview in 2004 and 2005, it is clear that you cannot recall whether

16     this all happened in one day or on two days, but at that time you seemed

17     quite sure that you went to Grubori twice.  Does that -- having read

18     this, does that refresh any memory for you that you have been to Grubori

19     twice on that day or on those days?

20        A.   Right now I cannot remember.  But as I said earlier on, since

21     this statement was made before, and then my memory was fresh, I see that

22     that was the case, as is written there.

23        Q.   And just for the record, in your interview, it is on that first

24     trip that the events that you described yesterday about seeing the dead

25     bodies, the dead animals, and Mr. Sacic examining one of the victims and

Page 28425

 1     determining that it was not a knife wound but rather a gun-shot wound

 2     where that occurred.

 3             Now on that -- on that trip or on the first trip, was there a

 4     Mr.  Vranjkovic from inner control with you?  Do you remember that?

 5        A.   I do not remember Mr. Vranjkovic now.  Maybe that was the case,

 6     but I cannot say anything for sure now.

 7        Q.   The trip where you remember where Mr. Cermak gave a statement to

 8     the media, do you remember if that was at the same time that members of

 9     civil protection were there to collect the bodies in Grubori?

10        A.   Unfortunately, I cannot remember now.  I told you already that I

11     can barely remember any of this.

12        Q.   Okay.  One thing that you did remember for sure, there was

13     that when you went back to Grubori the first time you had left from

14     Zagreb on an order from Mr. Sacic who had told Mr. Celic to go back; is

15     that right?

16        A.   Yes, that's the way it was.

17        Q.   So since you were in the operation in Ramljane on the 26th of

18     August, the earliest that that could have happened would be on the 27th;

19     would you agree with me?

20        A.   Yes, I agree.

21        Q.   Now, you also testified about a meeting in Knin including,

22     Mr. Cermak, Mr. Sacic, Mr. Celic, and some members of the fundamental

23     police and that you can't recall whether that meeting was before or after

24     you went to Grubori.  I'll suggest to you that it's also possible that if

25     you did go to Grubori twice that that meeting happened between the two

Page 28426

 1     trips which could be an extra source of confusion for you.

 2             Does that refresh, at all, your memory about whether you've been

 3     to Grubori once or twice or when that meeting took place?  And I

 4     understand that -- that your memory is not -- is not very precisely on

 5     this, but if -- if that helps at all ...

 6        A.   Well, you see, I don't want to say anything that I'm not

 7     100 percent sure of now.  Unfortunately, I am not sure, still, as to how

 8     things went.

 9        Q.   I understand that, Mr. Balunovic.  I'm not trying to make you say

10     anything that is not correct.  Just trying to help as we go along if

11     anything refreshes your memory.

12             Now you said you remember very little from that meeting, but you

13     did remember that someone said that an on-site investigation should be

14     conducted, and you also recall that Mr. Sacic was shouting.  Now, do you

15     remember who he was shouting at?

16        A.   No.  I don't remember who he was shouting at, as I've already

17     said.  Perhaps I wasn't even present throughout the meeting.

18             As for the people attending the meeting, they were at a level

19     that was way too high for me, as far as hierarchy was concerned, so I

20     don't think that it was right for me to be there.  It's possible that I

21     walked out at a certain point in time, that I wasn't present throughout.

22        Q.   Now, do you remember anyone else shouting or raising their voices

23     in that meeting, either in response to Mr. Sacic or just generally?

24        A.   No, I do not recall.

25        Q.   Do you remember Mr. Cermak being angry or raising his voice?

Page 28427

 1        A.   No, I do not recall.

 2        Q.   And you also testified yesterday that at some point in Grubori

 3     there were people taking photographs of the bodies.

 4             Now, do you know if these people had come with you from Knin?

 5        A.   I don't know whether they came together with us from Knin.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me move to the -- to the reports that were -- that

 7     were prepared with respect to the operations in Grubori.  And you've

 8     discussed these yesterday already.

 9             Now, you were aware, weren't you, that Mr. Celic's report had

10     been dictated to him by Mr. Sacic?

11        A.   Yes.  Mr. Celic told me something about that, or, rather, that he

12     had received information from Mr. Sacic.

13        Q.   And yesterday at 28393 through 95, you also testified that you

14     prepared your report based on a piece of paper but that you were not sure

15     whether these were written instructions given to you or whether you had

16     jotted some notes down while Mr. Celic was speaking in the meeting.

17             Now, my question for you is:  In any case, what I wanted to make

18     clear was that the substance of what you wrote in your report came from

19     Mr. Celic; is that correct?

20        A.   Well, I think I've already explained that.  That report partly

21     consists of my personal observations in the field, and there's another

22     part that contains the information I received from Mr. Celic.

23        Q.   And your understanding is that the information that Mr. Celic

24     provided to you, he had gotten, in turn, from Mr. Sacic; right?

25        A.   Yes.  Mr. Celic had gotten that from Mr. Sacic.

Page 28428

 1        Q.   And you prepared your report based on this information, and

 2     essentially you just assume that this information that you received, of

 3     which you were not aware, personally, was accurate; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   And you wrote the report, your report, five or six days later, at

 6     the Lucko base; is that correct?

 7        A.   Well, I don't remember exactly how many days after the operation

 8     that happened, but we did write -- or, rather, I wrote a report at the

 9     Lucko base.

10        Q.   Let me just show you 65 ter 7541.  And this is your interview

11     with the investigating judge in Croatia on 16 December 2009.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to page 5 of the English.  And I

13     think it's page 3 of the B/C/S, although I haven't written it down.

14        Q.   It says there:

15             "I wrote the report at the Lucko Anti-Terrorist Unit base five to

16     six days after the operation."

17             That's what you stated in December of last year.  Does that --

18     does that refresh your memory as to when you wrote the report?

19        A.   Again, I cannot be sure of when it happened, but it's possible

20     that it was five or six days after the operation; however, I'm not sure.

21        Q.   Now, was there a meeting later on, either in 1997 or 2001, when

22     these -- where these -- where these events were discussed again by the --

23     in the Lucko base with Mr. Celic and -- and the different group leaders?

24        A.   I don't remember that.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Balunovic.

Page 28429

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, I have -- actually I may have a

 2     further question.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

 6             Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Balunovic?

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.  I just need to get set

 8     up, I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Balunovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic.

11     Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

13        Q.   Morning, Mr. Balunovic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   I just wanted to follow up on a question before I get into the

16     substance of my cross-examination that was asked to you -- asked of you

17     by Mr. Hedaraly of the Prosecutor's office.

18             It involved the Ramljane operation on August 26th, and

19     Mr. Hedaraly referred to your OTP -- statement that you gave to the

20     Office of the Prosecutor on -- in November of 2004, which is 65 ter 7548.

21             There was a discussion about -- you said something about HV

22     members being shot at, being people at the wrong place at the wrong time.

23     And in that conversation that you had with the Office of the Prosecutor,

24     you said you could not recall, and I think the exact quote on page 288

25     is, "I cannot recall it being discussed," meaning the issue of whether

Page 28430

 1     the people being shot at were HV members at the wrong place at the wrong

 2     time.

 3             Today, on page 11 of the transcript, you said:

 4             "I believe it was actually the way I had put it then," meaning

 5     that you thought your recall back in 2004 was better than your recall

 6     here today in 2010.

 7             Now, it's true is it --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, yes, please proceed.

 9             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  You can ask your question now.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  All right.  Thank you.

12        Q.   My question is, Mr. Balunovic:  Back in 2004, you said you could

13     not recall.  So you're is essentially confirming, in 2010, that what you

14     said in 2004 is that you could not recall?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, that is a mischaracterisation.

17             If we can have the quote on the screen.  It is going to be clear

18     what the question was, and what the answer, I cannot recall, too, was,

19     but was -- to what reference.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Should preferably be put on the screen so that

21     we can follow the exact wording.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  And the specific question starts at page 289 at

23     the bottom, and the answer that Mr. Kuzmanovic is quoting is at the

24     following page, 290.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If you could refer, please -- I'm referring to

Page 28431

 1     the transcript by the page numbers in the transcript.  So that's page.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If the numbers given by Mr. Hedaraly bring you to

 3     the same page in the transcript, perhaps you verify before -- I think the

 4     previous page will contain the question, isn't it?

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes.

 6        Q.   "Why do you think they were members of the HV," is the question.

 7             And the answer is:

 8             "I cannot recall.  This is one memory that I have.  I can't

 9     recall if I heard it through the communication lines, this being

10     discussed, but somehow it's in my memory."

11             The fact of the matter is, Mr. Balunovic, you can't recall

12     whether these people being shot at were members of the HV; correct?

13        A.   Yes, I agree.

14        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, did you ever speak to General Markac about the

15     events of the 25th of August, 1995?

16        A.   As far as I can remember, I think I did not.

17        Q.   And other than overhearing General Markac on August 26th, the

18     following day, did you ever speak to General Markac about the events of

19     August 26th, 1995?

20        A.   Again, as far as I can remember, I think I did not.

21        Q.   To your knowledge, did General Markac ever pressure, threaten, or

22     coerce anyone in the Lucko Unit to write a report -- to write or report,

23     that the events which occurred on August 25th were the result of armed

24     conflict?

25        A.   No.

Page 28432

 1        Q.   Now, General Markac was not in Grubori on August 25th, nor was he

 2     in Grubori on August 27th, when you went to Grubori with Mr. Sacic,

 3     Mr. Turkalj, and Mr. Celic; is that correct?

 4        A.   Well, I don't remember Mr. Markac at all from that area, so I

 5     don't think he was there.

 6        Q.   Did you ever hear from anyone that General Markac tried, in any

 7     way, to cover up the events of Grubori?

 8        A.   No, sir, I never heard that.

 9        Q.   Were you aware that what occurred in Grubori was reported in the

10     media shortly after the 25th of August?

11        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember any of the media coverage.  I

12     believe that I remember a press statements given by Mr. Cermak for

13     television.  But, honestly, I wasn't following all that at the time.

14        Q.   I understand that, Mr. Balunovic, I guess my question was more

15     general.  Were you aware at the time of the events at the end of

16     August of 1995 that what occurred in Grubori was reported in the media,

17     not specifically what was reported but that, in general, it was reported

18     in the media?

19        A.   Well, yes, I remember that the media wrote about that.

20        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, I -- during questioning by Mr. Hedaraly today

21     there was a discussion of the two civilians that were found on the 25th

22     that ended up -- Mr. Celic ended up escorting instead of Mr. Jurendic.

23     Do you remember that discussion?

24        A.   Yes.  I can't be sure whether Mr. Celic personally came or

25     whether he had dispatched one of his staff members to take those

Page 28433

 1     civilians over.  I believe that after that, Mr. Jurendic proceeded with

 2     what he was doing before.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I apologise, Your Honour, the next document I

 4     want to use, I thought I had it here, but let me just take a minute to

 5     find it, please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you moving to a different subject or ...

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It's on the same subject, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell me once you finish this

 9     subject, because I would have a question.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             If we could please pull up P577, page 5 of that document.  If we

12     could enlarge that, please.  And go to page 5.

13        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, this is a special police document, and if we have

14     an English version of this document, please.

15             Before we do that, Mr. Balunovic, so you can get oriented with

16     the document, this is a document in which -- which details the -- what

17     was found in various search operations by the various special police

18     units.  And the document here - if we could go to page 5 of the English,

19     please, as well - shows the date of August 25th, 1995, and the various

20     special police units that were involved.  And it shows on the bottom a

21     total of civilians, which is the far right-hand column that was -- that

22     were found as 64, and I note that in P605, which also deals with this

23     date, there's a note that there was 73 total people found.  There are no

24     civilians found in the area in which Lucko was involved.  Do you see

25     that?  There's dash signifying basically a blank.  Do you know anything

Page 28434

 1     about that?

 2        A.   No.  I wouldn't know who or how they collected this information.

 3             I told you that, at the beginning of that search, around the

 4     village of Grubori, we found two civilians, as far as I can remember.

 5        Q.   In addition, there's - at least from this document -- when it's

 6     under armed combat, or armed contact, I should say, combat contact in the

 7     third column, under Lucko, it says: No.

 8             As well as prisoners in the third -- or captured in the

 9     third-last column, that's also blank; correct?

10        A.   Yeah, I can see it here.  But as I've already told you, I don't

11     know who and how they collected this information.

12             As for the other thing, I can't be sure, but I remember and I can

13     claim that we did find two civilians, yes.

14        Q.   In the reporting, regarding what occurred on August 25th, 1995,

15     you discussed both in your testimony yesterday and, to some extent,

16     today, that you were given instructions by Mr. Celic on what to write.

17              MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And I'd like to refer to 65 ter 7650, please.

18     If we can get that up on the screen.  Page 5 of 6 in the English.

19             7650, I'm sorry, my dyslexia affecting ...

20             Your Honour, I'm through with that topic.  I don't know if

21     Your Honour wanted to follow up on something before I move on?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I noticed that in the reference to the -- to

23     the interview, Mr. Hedaraly was talking about two Chetniks or, perhaps,

24     two persons, perhaps wrongly referred to as two Chetniks had fired.

25     Whereas, in your question you interpret apparently the same passage, as

Page 28435

 1     Chetniks that were fired at and that seems to be a rather different

 2     understanding of what it is.

 3             Now, reading the text, I do not find reference to -- do not find

 4     any reference to Chetniks fired at.  So I'm wondering whether I

 5     misunderstood your question, or whether you misunderstood or that we have

 6     a different interpretation of the text.  But then I would like to know

 7     exactly what you rely upon to say that, in this interview, the witness

 8     was talking about two Chetniks fired at.  The ones who were in the wrong

 9     place.

10             Where do you find that these were people that were fired at?

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, if I said that, I misspoke.  I

12     don't think I said that they were fired at.  If I did, I misspoke.  I'm

13     just saying --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm seeing -- let me just check.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  My concern there, Your Honour, was the issue of

16     how these two people were characterised, not necessarily on the issue of

17     firing.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And if that is not the issue, then I have no

19     problem.

20             I will just try to find -- it was right, relatively in the

21     beginning of your --

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's right, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see ...

24             MR. HEDARALY:  It's page 20, line 9 of today's transcript,

25     Your Honour.

Page 28436

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is transcribed, Mr. Kuzmanovic, as there

 2     was a discussion about -- you said something about HV members being shot

 3     at, and that caused my confusion, but it has now been clarified.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I apologise for the confusion.

 7        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, back to 65 ter 7650, which is now on your screen

 8     which is a February 25th, 2010, record of an examination in Zagreb County

 9     Court.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page 5 of 6, please.  If we

11     could get the Croatian version up too, please, so the witness can follow.

12        Q.   And I'm about a little more than halfway down the document.  And

13     the English version, on the right, it says:

14             "When asked about the writing ..."

15             And, Mr. Balunovic, just let me know when you're in that section

16     of the document:

17             "When asked about the writing of reports on the first day ..."

18             In the Croatian version, it's closer to the bottom on the

19     right-hand side:  "na daljinje pitanje vezano."

20             Did you find it?

21        A.   To further questions by the --

22        Q.   No, you -- you're mistaken, Mr. Balunovic.  It is further up,

23     you'll see maybe seven or eight lines above that, "na daljinje pitanje

24     vezano za stavljanje."

25        A.   Yes, now I can see that.

Page 28437

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  This section, I'll read to you, and then I

 2     have a question about it, Mr. Balunovic:

 3              "When asked about the writing of reports on the first day of the

 4     operation, and if Celic instructed me what to write, I wish to say that

 5     it is true.  He gave such instructions not only to me, he also told other

 6     group leaders what to write in the reports."

 7             Now before I go on, were you present when Mr. Celic gave

 8     instructions, not only to you, but to other group leaders?  Were you

 9     together?

10        A.   I believe that that was that meeting and that all of us were

11     there.

12        Q.   When you were at Lucko, did you write that report on the first

13     day of the operation on your own after these instructions were given to

14     you?

15        A.   As far as I can remember, I believe that I wrote my report on the

16     ground floor of the building in the meeting room or in the dispatch room.

17     And as far as I can remember, I had some notes on a piece of paper.

18             I repeat, I'm not sure whether those were my own notes, the notes

19     that I made during Mr. Coric's [as interpreted] presentation or if they

20     were a photocopy of something that had already existed.  I don't know.

21             Also, I can't be sure, and I can't say with any degree of

22     certainty that somebody else was there writing their report at the same

23     time that I did.  I'm not sure about that.

24        Q.   Did anyone -- did Mr. Celic pressure you to write the report in

25     the way that he instructed to you write?

Page 28438

 1        A.   No.  Actually, the way I understood all that was that that was

 2     additional information that had to be included in the report.  I didn't

 3     not think that I was being instructed as to how to precisely word my

 4     report but that my report should also contain that particular additional

 5     information.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Going back to 65 ter 7650, the next sentence where we left

 7     off is:

 8             "I wrote down those instructions and wrote the report in

 9     accordance with them.  Celic then told me that he was only conveying the

10     instructions that he received from Sacic and what his directions were."

11             Now, the last sentence after that is:

12             "I am unable to say if such a report reflected the real events in

13     the field."

14             What did you mean by that last sentence, Mr. Balunovic?

15        A.   What I meant was that, at the moment when I was writing the

16     report, I did not have any reason and I didn't dare doubt my superior's

17     words about what had happened.  I did not have any reason to doubt

18     information provided to me by him.  And by that, I primarily refer to

19     Mr. Sacic.

20        Q.   Did anyone else, other than Celic -- I'll rephrase the question.

21             You said that Celic didn't pressure you to write what you wrote,

22     that he gave you instructions to write.  Did anyone other than Celic

23     pressure you to write a report that wasn't true?

24        A.   No, there were no pressures.

25        Q.   This meeting took place in Lucko --

Page 28439

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, have you -- have you dealt with the

 2     report or ...

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'm not going to deal specifically in the

 4     written report, Your Honour, but I'm, for now, done with this section.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because I would like to ask you a follow-up

 6     question.

 7             Mr. Kuzmanovic asked you what you meant when you said:

 8             "I am unable to say if such a report reflected the real events in

 9     the field."

10             And:

11             "I was not entirely certain of this, even when writing the

12     report."

13             Now your explanation was, more or less, I had no reason to doubt

14     the accuracy of the information I received.  Well, that's completely the

15     opposite from what the text says.  The text of your statement says, I

16     couldn't tell you what I did write down, whether that reflected what

17     really had happened.  And then, even at the time when I wrote it, I was

18     not certain about whether that is what had happened.  Which means, as far

19     as I understand it, but please correct me when I'm wrong, that you here

20     express your view that you did write a report on the information that was

21     given to you, of which you were not certain and you were unable to say

22     whether that reflects what -- what had happened.

23             Now, your answer, that you had no reason to doubt what you were

24     told may be true or not true, but, at least, what is said here is, When I

25     wrote it down, I didn't know, even at that time, whether that necessarily

Page 28440

 1     was the truth.

 2             Do you agree with me that that's what this language simply tells

 3     us?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I meant was that

 5     I did not have direct knowledge about the information that was to be

 6     included in the report additionally.  I wasn't sure that things

 7     transpired in that particular way because I did not have any direct

 8     knowledge about the events, and that's why I said I wasn't sure that

 9     things, indeed, happened the way somebody said that they had.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, in your statement, you said, I wasn't sure

11     that what I was writing down, on the basis of the information I received

12     at that time, was true or not; but I did it.  And that's your explanation

13     of today, which is not what the text says, but which is an additional

14     explanation.  I did it, because, at the time, although not knowing

15     whether it's true or not, I had no reasons to doubt what I was told that

16     had happened.

17             Is that correctly understood?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I did not have any reason to

19     doubt, and, as I've told you, I did not dare doubt the information

20     provided to me by my superior, and, having said that, I mean Mr. Sacic.

21             I believed that that was, indeed, the truth, but I could not be

22     sure, because I did not have any first-hand knowledge.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Balunovic, what is the purpose of all

24     of reporting, if you just write down what someone else says is the truth,

25     where you have no possibility to tell us whether it's the truth or not,

Page 28441

 1     especially if you ask four persons to do the same, then it may create an

 2     impression or a suggestion that you wrote down what you observed.

 3     Otherwise, you would have expected you to write down what happened, I do

 4     not know for sure, but I was told that this and this happens.  And then

 5     it's clear what the source of the information is; whereas, operating in

 6     the way that was done, that creates a false image of reporting, on the

 7     basis of the knowledge of the person that is reporting, rather than on

 8     the basis of the knowledge of someone else who is not identified in that

 9     report.

10             Would you agree with me?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with you that it would have

12     been much better if I had stated that that was not my first-hand

13     knowledge, that I had, indeed, obtained information in a different way

14     and how I obtained it.

15             But let me tell you that, first and foremost, we were soldiers,

16     we were warriors.  We were not so savvy when it came to writing reports,

17     and we did not really put them in the context into which they were put

18     today.  We did not understand them that way.

19             I agree that it would have been much better if I had made a

20     remark that those -- that that was not my first-hand knowledge from the

21     field.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, the reporting gives the false impression

23     that this is what you observed.

24             Would you agree with that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree with that.

Page 28442

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

 3        Q.   Following up with His Honour's questions, 65 ter 7542.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could get that up, please.  Page 3 of 6 in

 5     the English.  It's the January 12th, 2010 record of witness interview in

 6     the Zagreb County Court.

 7             I just want to make sure we match up the Croatian and the

 8     English.

 9             In the English version, it's the second sentence.  Actually, the

10     first line.

11        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, you added to your -- in this particular statement

12     in January of 2010, and I'll read this section.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could shift the Croatian over a little bit

14     more to the right so that the witness will be able to follow along.  The

15     left side is cut off of the Croatian.  There we go.

16        Q.    "He gives the same statement as recorded on 16.12.2009 and adds:

17     I wrote a report on that event in which I stated that nothing happened

18     along the route I was taking, but I also cited what I had learned on the

19     event from Josim Calic."

20             I'm assuming that is Josip Celic, because in the Croatian it says

21     Josip Celic:

22             "He told me that he had been told by Sacic to write a report

23     stating that there was an armed conflict on that location and that some

24     civilians were killed in the conflict."

25             Now, Mr. Balunovic, this is a little bit more detailed

Page 28443

 1     information than what you had supplied in the statement of -- the later

 2     statement of 25 February 2010.

 3             But my question to you specifically is:  If you were in the area

 4     of Grubori on the 25th of August, and you did not see that there was

 5     armed conflict on that location and that some civilians were killed in

 6     the conflict, why, after the first time you said nothing happened, did

 7     you write that there was an armed conflict?

 8        A.   After the end of the operation, I reported to Mr. Celic about

 9     what had happened on my axis, and I told him that there had been no

10     incidents there.  We found those two civilians, and he had already been

11     informed about that, even before I told him.

12        Q.   Again, in follow-up to Judge Orie's questions, if, in fact, there

13     had been no armed conflict, what the reporting is suggesting is that

14     there was.  Why?

15        A.   I apologise.  I didn't understand what your "why" refers to.  Are

16     you asking me why I wrote what I did?

17        Q.   [Microphone not activated] yes.

18        A.   As I already told you, during the search, we did hear shots and

19     detonations.  I was not in a position to establish where those had come

20     from, from which place.  And when I heard what Mr. Sacic had told

21     Mr. Celic, I was inclined to believe that that was, indeed, how things

22     had transpired.

23        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, was Celic your direct superior on August 25th of

24     1995?

25        A.   He was.

Page 28444

 1        Q.   What function did Mr. Janic have on August 25th?

 2        A.   I'm not sure.  He was at a higher level of command, and I was not

 3     interested in that.  I was only interested in the orders and commands I

 4     received from my immediate superior.  Therefore, I wouldn't be able to

 5     tell you what was his exact position on that day.  I believe that he was

 6     in command of all units that were carrying out the search on that

 7     particular day, but I'm not sure.

 8        Q.   Mr. Janic, then, at least as far as you can remember, was there

 9     in the area on August 25th, 1995?

10        A.   I don't remember having seen him on the 25th of August.  But I

11     believe, it seems to me that he was in the area around Ramljane on the

12     26th.

13        Q.   Who was your superior on August 26th in Ramljane?

14        A.   Mr. Celic.

15        Q.   And the -- the commander of your Lucko Unit was Mr. Turkalj;

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.  At the time, Mr. Turkalj was the unit commander.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I just have two follow-up questions

19     and then we can go on the break, just to complete the theme, if that's

20     all right.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all right with me.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

23        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, there has been an assertion that these August 25

24     reports were written some years later, perhaps even as late as 2001.  Do

25     you agree with that assertion?

Page 28445

 1        A.   I don't think that that's correct.

 2        Q.   What leads you to that conclusion?

 3        A.   I think I would remember if those reports had been written in

 4     2001.  I believe that they were actually compiled contemporaneously.  I'm

 5     actually almost sure that they were not written at a later date.

 6        Q.   Was Mr. Sacic present for that meeting in Lucko where the writing

 7     of these reports was discussed?

 8        A.   I don't think so.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, just one more follow-up for

10     reference on the number of civilians on the 25th.  We have got two other

11     exhibits.  I think I mentioned P605; one more is P617.  And that's all I

12     have on this topic.  And we can move on, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will have a break.

14             Could you give us an estimate as to how much time you need after

15     the break?

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I think I can finish within the

17     next session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             We will have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late start.  There

23     was an urgent matter which we had to deal with during the break.

24             Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to continue?

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 28446

 1        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, I want to go back for a couple of more questions

 2     on the August 25th operation and matters related to that.

 3             You were one of the -- the only one of the four group leaders to

 4     have gone into Grubori on Sunday, August 27th, with Mr. Sacic and others;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   Did Mr. Sacic tell you in Grubori what happened in Grubori?

 8        A.   No.  No, I don't remember that he said anything to me then.

 9        Q.   Did anyone ever tell you, when you were in Grubori on the 27th,

10     what happened there?

11        A.   No.  Again, I don't remember that anyone told me about what had

12     happened.

13        Q.   Did you come to a conclusion at all as to what happened there,

14     when you were there on August 27th?

15        A.   No, I did not come to any conclusion.  I don't understand why it

16     happened.  I didn't notice any of it.  As I said, at least one house had

17     been burned down.  There were persons who had been killed, but I do not

18     remember seeing smoke when it was on fire, so I was shocked.  I did not

19     understand actually when it could have happened.

20        Q.   Since you were the only group member in Grubori on the 27th, did

21     you, when you came back, talk to or discuss with any of the others, group

22     leaders, what you had seen?

23        A.   As far as I can remember, I didn't talk to anyone.

24        Q.   Before your meeting in Lucko, when the report -- your report was

25     written related to Grubori, did you talk to the other instructors about

Page 28447

 1     what you had seen in your visit there?

 2        A.   I don't think I did.  I don't think I talked to any of them

 3     before that meeting about that.

 4        Q.   Now, you had testified earlier that Mr. Sacic never told you what

 5     had happened in Grubori.  You were in Grubori also with Mr. Celic, were

 6     you not?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   Did Mr. Celic, while you were in Grubori, ever tell you what

 9     happened there, on the 27th?

10        A.   I don't think he did.  Actually, during that stay in Grubori - I

11     think I've already said this - I was not with the two of them all the

12     time.  As far as can I remember, they searched the entire terrain.  At

13     one moment, I was separated from them.  I wasn't with them all the time,

14     that is.

15        Q.   Between the time you were in Grubori on the 27th and the time you

16     wrote your report at the Lucko meeting, did you learn anything else about

17     what happened in Grubori?

18        A.   No, I did not.

19        Q.   So the only people you could have learned, if -- if that's the

20     case, about what happened in Grubori from were Mr. Sacic and Mr. Celic;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   Well, yes, I think that would be right.

23        Q.   Celic was commanding the Lucko Unit on the 25th of August of

24     1995.  Did he set down who should be in whose group and who the leaders

25     of the group should be on that particular day?

Page 28448

 1        A.   Mr. Celic was not leader of the group.  He was assistant

 2     commander of the unit; but on that day, he commanded the unit in that

 3     operation, yes.  He appointed the leaders of groups.  And for the

 4     selection of men, it did not follow a strict pattern.  It was

 5     spontaneous, as it were.

 6        Q.   And it was normal, as part of your training, was it not,

 7     Mr. Balunovic, that whoever led the action would appoint the group

 8     leaders, and then the group leaders would carry out the task of the

 9     action; correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   Were Mr. Radocaj and Mr. Sosa in your group on that day?

12        A.   No.  No, they weren't.

13        Q.   Now, at the meeting in Lucko, you said earlier Mr. Drljo was

14     present when you were -- when the meeting was called by Mr. Celic;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.  I think that he was present at the beginning of the

17     meeting.  However, at one point, he left, when he said that he would not

18     write a report.

19             However, I don't remember how long he actually stayed at the

20     meeting.

21        Q.   Was Mr. Turkalj present at this meeting?

22        A.   I'm not sure about that.

23        Q.   But you're sure that Celic was the one that called the meeting in

24     Lucko shortly after the 25th and 26th of 1995 [sic]?

25        A.   Again, I'm not sure.  In order to be sure, I'd have to remember

Page 28449

 1     the moment when he asked me to come to the meeting.  However, the usual

 2     procedure was that if the commander of the unit wants to have a meeting

 3     with the leading people from the unit, then he would have his assistants

 4     convene the meeting.  Mr. Celic was one of his assistants.

 5             So I think it was Mr. Celic who actually convened the meeting.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Drljo left the meeting and refused to write a report.

 7     Who is was responsible, if anyone, to discipline him -- I'll ask the --

 8     strike that question.

 9             Mr. Drljo refused to write a report, from what we've heard.

10     That's a potential act which would cause there to be potentially

11     discipline; is that true?

12        A.   Yes.  That would be the usual procedure.

13        Q.   Who was the person responsible, then, to discipline Mr. Drljo, if

14     he failed to write a report when he was ordered to do so?

15        A.   Well, I'm not sure exactly who would ultimately take that

16     measure.  However, I think that the procedure should have been initiated

17     by the commander of the unit.

18        Q.   Would Celic have to advise Mr. Turkalj that Drljo didn't want to

19     write a report and then Turkalj would decide what, if any, disciplinary

20     measures would be taken?  Is that how I am to assume what would happen?

21        A.   Yes.  If Mr. Turkalj was not present when the incident occurred

22     at the meeting, then Mr. Celic would have to inform Mr. Turkalj about

23     that and then he would take further measures.

24        Q.   Did Mr. Celic - and if I -- if I -- one final question on this.

25     If I asked it, I'm sorry.

Page 28450

 1             Mr. Celic led that meeting in the Lucko Unit, correct, that you

 2     had, that discussed August 25th?

 3        A.   I think the answer is yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to move to a different topic, Mr. Balunovic.

 5             Just briefly, you participated in training sessions in 1995 in

 6     Mali Losinj for instructors, did you not?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   And you received training and, among other things, conducting

 9     mop-up operations, combat activities and the international laws of war,

10     did you not?

11        A.   Yes.  Those were primarily the subjects involved in that

12     training.

13        Q.   And, just for reference, those are D1826 and D532.

14             Mr. Balunovic, you were also trained as a special policeman, were

15     you not, when you became one in the Ministry of Interior Special Police?

16        A.   Yes.  I would like to note that, at the beginning of the war,

17     there wasn't much time for some kind of extended training.  Before that,

18     I had completed my one-year military service.

19             As for being admitted into the police force, that was one of the

20     prerequisites.  So, up to a certain degree, I was prepared to take part

21     in actions.

22        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, I'd like to move on to a different subject matter.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could please pull up 65 ter 7542.  The

24     English version is page 4.  And, for the record, it's a January 12th,

25     2010, interview in the Zagreb County Court of Mr. Mr. Balunovic.

Page 28451

 1        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, before we get into a specific question, these

 2     interviews before the county court that you had, those were all under

 3     oath; correct?  You were sworn to tell the truth.

 4        A.   I don't remember the moment of taking the oath.  But the judge

 5     did tell me that it was my duty to tell the truth.  I think that that was

 6     the procedure, and I think that that's how it went.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page 4 the last paragraph in

 8     the English on the bottom.  It says:

 9             "To a question by the defence counsel ..."

10             The second sentence of that paragraph -- if we could scroll down

11     in the Croatian version too, please.  It says:

12             "I believe that my commanding function of the group leader stems

13     from the command of my superior officer Celic who entrusted me with this

14     duty."

15             Am I correct in reading this, that when you refer to the person

16     who was your direct superior, at least for purposes of what occurred on

17     August 25th, it was Mr. Celic.

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could move, please, to another subject.

20     We don't need the document on the screen anymore.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, there's been evidence in this case, and I cite the

22     Chamber to D99, the -- or to D739, excuse me, that the Lucko Unit was

23     assigned to protect part of the railway near Ramljane for the freedom

24     train because it was one of the most sensitive places along the freedom

25     train railway line.

Page 28452

 1             Were you aware of that at all, Mr. Balunovic?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

 3        Q.   Were you aware that the freedom train operation on August 26th,

 4     1995, in which the Lucko Unit was involved, that there has been evidence

 5     in the case that this part of the railway line was among the most

 6     sensitive places along the line and that's why the Lucko Unit was

 7     involved, from a security standpoint?

 8        A.   I'm not aware of the details of planning that action.

 9             However, I do know that our task was to mop up the terrain, as

10     assigned, so that it would be safe for the passage of the freedom train.

11             That is all that I know about the plan of that action and the

12     reasons why it was being carried out.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 28453











11 Page 28453 redacted















Page 28454

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, you may proceed.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, I'd like to move to the topic of Ramljane on

11     August 26th.

12             You stated that in Ramljane, after the action, when the unit was

13     confronted by General Markac, Mr. Janic was present, Mr. Celic was

14     present, Mr. Drljo was present, and I'm referencing your 2004 statement,

15     at page 118 of 143.

16             Was Mr. Krajina present as well?

17        A.   No, I don't remember Mr. Krajina at all.  That is to say, that

18     I'm not sure whether he was there or not, but I don't remember him having

19     been there.

20        Q.   You stated yesterday in your testimony and in your 2004 statement

21     that you didn't know of Sacic, Mr. Sacic was in Ramljane; correct?

22        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand the question.

23        Q.   Sure.  Yesterday in your statement -- or in your testimony, and

24     today, or, excuse me, I'll rephrase the question.

25             Yesterday in your testimony and in your 2004 statement that you

Page 28455

 1     gave to the OTP, you said that you didn't know if Sacic was in Ramljane.

 2     Does that square with your recollection today?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   It's fair to state, is it not, that Mr. Sacic was the kind of

 5     person that one could not miss.  I mean, you could hear him before you

 6     could see him; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I agree with you.

 8        Q.   And just to confirm, as you sit here today, you cannot tell us

 9     that Mr. Sacic was in Ramljane on August 26th, 1995, can you?

10        A.   Yes, I cannot say with certainty that he was there.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'd like to, please, call up P190, which is a

12     map that we've used throughout these proceedings.  And the part of the

13     map that I would like enlarged is the area near Ramljane, which is, for

14     the Registrar's reference, between Knin and Drnis, in the lower part of

15     the map.

16             Scroll down.  Keep going.  All the way to the end.  Okay.  And

17     now if you move to the right a bit, actually, yes, a little more.  And

18     then if you can put the cursor up, up, up, to the left, right there,

19     that's good.  If you can enlarge that area, please.  A little -- I'm

20     sorry, before you enlarge, move the cursor up a little bit more.  I'll

21     tell you when to stop.  Up, up the screen, to the right; further to the

22     right.  Right there.  If you can enlarge, please.

23             No -- there you go, that's good.

24             Now, if we can see toward the upper third in the middle --

25        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, you'll see from left to right, you'll see in small

Page 28456

 1     type, Ramljane.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If could you enlarge it just a little bit more.

 3     We have Drnis at the bottom, so you can get a point of reference.  There

 4     we go.

 5             If we could go up a little higher.  A little bit more.  A little

 6     bit more.  Okay.  That's perfect.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Balunovic, that's, on the right, we see a railroad

 8     track to the right of -- and a road to the right of where -- where it

 9     reads Ramljane, right next to the E of Ramljane.  Right near Kaldrma.

10             Do you see that?  If you go to the top of the map and you look

11     at, which is next to the purple line.  Have you found it?

12        A.   Could you please help me?  Which part of the map should I be

13     looking at.  You said up --

14        Q.   Do you see where Uzdolje is on the map?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Go further up the map and you will see, Cosici, Kaldrma on the

17     way up?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then to the left of that, Ramljane.  Do you see that?  It's a

20     rather long word spaced out.

21        A.   Yes, now I can see it.

22        Q.   Now in this part of the search operation, according to your

23     report, which is P770, you state that your search operation went along

24     Dobrici-Vujakovici-Perica tor axis.  Now, you can see there, Dobrici

25     Vujakovici from right to left and Perica tor and along that axis is

Page 28457

 1     somewhat in-depth away from the railroad, meaning from the right to left;

 2     do you see that?

 3        A.   I can see Dobrici, and I can also see Vujakovici.

 4        Q.   And if you go further along to the left of Vujakovici, along that

 5     road, you will see eventually Perica tor.  Do you see that?  First is

 6     Prgastine, Prgastine tor, and then Perica tor.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  With the assistance of the usher, can I just

 9     have the witness draw that line on the screen and then we will mark it

10     and have it as a separate document.  We're blue, if I'm not mistaken,

11     Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, if can just draw a line along that road from

13     Dobrici to Perica tor, which is the terrain along which your report

14     states your unit went on the 26th of August.

15             And we're red.

16        A.   Marks.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Balunovic.  We'll just note that, for the record,

18     the Defence is supposed to use blue, but, in this instance, the marking

19     is red and rather than dealing with the zooming in and everything, and,

20     Your Honour, if that is all right, we'll leave it red?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not wipe it out in red and do it in blue.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  We can do that, that's fine.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  In order to avoid whatever confusion at a later

24     stage.

25             Could the witness be given a blue pen and so then to take out the

Page 28458

 1     red one or ...

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we lift the card up, it will automatically

 3     erase.  So why don't we move the card up a little bit more to put that,

 4     sort of, in the middle of the map, if that's all right, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we can lift the map up a little bit more

 7     before the witness marks it again.  Little bit more.  That's good.  Thank

 8     you.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Balunovic, with the blue marker, if could you please

10     again mark that line from Dobrici to Perica tor?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   If you go on the line on the left, if you can make it all the

13     way, please, to Perica tor.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   I believe were the line is ended, Mr. Balunovic, is

16     Prgastine tor, and if you move a little bit more to the left, you'll see

17     Perica tor.  So if can you draw the line all the way there.

18        A.   Apologise, what do you want me to write?  I see here it says

19     Prgastine tor and below that it says Perica tor.  Oh, right, yes.

20        Q.   Now, if you could just, please, to the right of the blue line

21     with an X, just mark where the railroad line is.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Next to that railroad line is a -- a road, correct,

24     running from north to south?  Parallel with -- to some extent, with the

25     railroad line?

Page 28459

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Was it on that road from Ramljane on the way to Knin, or

 3     somewhere in that vicinity near Ramljane, that you had the encounter with

 4     General Markac?

 5        A.   I don't know what road that was.  I'm not familiar with the

 6     region.  That is not where I was born.  I was in that place only during

 7     that operation, never before, never after.  It's very difficult for me to

 8     find my bearings on the map.  I don't know what roads lead where.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'd like to have this document

10     marked and moved into evidence, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar, that would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D2040.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Exhibit D2040 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Balunovic, do you recall at all that this area in which

17     you were operating on that day, to some extent, was very hilly and

18     heavily wooded between the tracks where you marked as an X and the

19     finishing point in Perica tor?

20        A.   I don't remember the configuration of the terrain there.  But

21     judging by the map, I would say that south of the axis there is an rather

22     steep slope leading to an elevation.

23        Q.   Now, would you agree with me - and tell me if you can or cannot -

24     that the only thing what one would be able to see from the road or the

25     tracks in the area of Ramljane, if anything, would be smoke, if smoke

Page 28460

 1     existed?

 2        A.   I agree with you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, there seems to be a suggestion in

 4     your question that it has got something to do with the previous question,

 5     which is rather unclear to me.  Let's just see ...

 6             Now, first of all, if I re-read your question, whether

 7     Mr. Balunovic agrees with you, and he's invited to tell you, "... if you

 8     can or cannot - that the only thing what one would be able to see from

 9     the road or the tracks ... if anything, would be smoke, if smoke

10     existed."

11             Now he was first invited to agree with you or not that it was

12     possible or it was not possible to see what you then described, and he

13     agreed.  I would say I would agree with that, as well, that it is

14     possible or not possible.

15             I'm just analysing your question and then to see what the answer

16     is.  And then -- but he can see smoke or not, what do you mean, that

17     there was an officially obstruction or --

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It is totally unclear to me.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

21        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, from the train tracks and from the road, in the

22     position of Ramljane, the only thing that one would be able to see from

23     the roads or the tracks on the west side of that road, if there was fire,

24     would be smoke.  You wouldn't be able to see fires; you wouldn't be able

25     to see anything burning.  The only thing you would be able to see would

Page 28461

 1     be smoke; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  So I can agree with you on that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, again, could we explore the base for

 4     this answer.

 5             Mr. Balunovic, why do you think that, to the west of the road or

 6     the track, if there was smoke, you only could see smoke and no fire?

 7             Could you tell us why that is.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can

 9     remember, the terrain was forested.  There were a lot of trees, in other

10     words.  And in that sense, I believe if -- if a house had been burning,

11     one could not have seen the house from the trees but one could easily see

12     the smoke coming from the -- the site, because the smoke would rise above

13     the tree tops.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Kuzmanovic, there was -- I'm trying to

15     further explore this, because we have not established yet anything about

16     trees.  You asked him questions about hilly terrain.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I think I asked him, Your Honour, if the road

18     and train tracks were heavily wooded and hilly in the area of the

19     operation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I missed the "wooded."  And if that is the

21     case, I apologise for that.  And, therefore, the answer by Mr. Balunovic

22     is on the basis of the woods, rather than on the basis of the hills.  Is

23     that --

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I asked him:  Do you recall if this area in

25     which you were operating on that day, to some extent, was very hilly and

Page 28462

 1     wooded between the tracks.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I understood that as woods on the hills.

 3     Perhaps that's a misunderstanding, but because in the next answer,

 4     because the hills didn't receive a positive confirmation.

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I don't [Overlapping speakers] ... at all.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think, as a matter of fact, that the woods

 7     were not, at that moment, further dealt with in the answer.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Well, I asked both; was it very hilly and

 9     heavily wooded.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you take me to the line exactly

11     where that was.  Well, I'll find it.  Just a second.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Why don't we pull up 65 ter 3D01001, please.

13     Doc ID 3D070067.  There we go.  I don't know if we necessarily have to

14     mark this, Your Honour, but this is a Google map of Ramljane, which we've

15     discussed with Mr. Hedaraly.  He doesn't have an objection to it, to give

16     a top-down view of Ramljane.

17        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, do you see on the right side there, the road and

18     the railroad track?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Mark that -- the road being marked with a 33.

21        A.   Yes, can I see that.

22        Q.   And would you agree with me, just to the left of the road, there

23     is what appears to be a fairly big hill with a number of wooded areas

24     that runs from north to south?

25        A.   Yes.  I can see it very clearly now.

Page 28463

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Can I have a number for that document,

 2     Your Honour, please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.  I don't know if it was done, but if

 5     we can just clarify for the record that that road is the Knin to Drnis

 6     road, the 33.  I don't know if that was done or not.  But we don't have

 7     no objection to the --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that was clear on the basis of the

 9     previous -- of the previous exhibit.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Just to make a little bit more clarity.

11        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, the road that goes toward the top of the map goes

12     toward Knin, and the road that goes toward the bottom of the map goes

13     toward Drnis; is that correct?

14        A.   As I have already told you, I don't know.  I'm not sure that that

15     that's the case.  I'm not very familiar with the area and that's why I am

16     not sure.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  To confirm it, we can pull P190 up, Your Honour,

18     but I think under the circumstances, I don't think it is necessary.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, on P190, also the marked version, D2040, it --

20     there is hardly any doubt about whether this is the Knin-Drnis road.

21             Mr. Registrar, the exhibit number would be ...

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number would be D2041.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             Mr. Kuzmanovic, one of my questions here is -- is what now

25     exactly you can see or cannot see and where the woods are and what is

Page 28464

 1     meadow and what is not meadow.  That's -- I have -- for example, if I

 2     look at -- to the right of that road, easterly direction, I see some

 3     darker green areas which, from my recollection, from what I see from a

 4     plane, resembles wood.  But, if, for example, I would look from Ramljane

 5     or the road or the rail track close to that, to the west, I do not see

 6     similar things.  So, therefore, I'm just asking myself, whether what kind

 7     of conclusions we are drawing on the basis of what exactly.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I think it is pretty, Your Honour, relatively

 9     easy to see if you combine this photograph with what is the map in P90

10     [sic].  You can see the elevations in P--

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is exactly what I -- let me just --

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And on this photograph from north to south,

13     running immediately to the left of the road is -- you can tell by the

14     switchback roads that is a hill that runs, basically, from north to

15     south, west of the road.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Just -- I will have a closer look at the elevation

17     lines that is P190.  Because as witness said earlier, he said, I do not

18     remember.  What I see is that south of our track there is a -- a rather

19     steep hill.  When he said that, I looked at that map as well and I saw

20     that the elevation lines, apart from that part where you go up 200, 300

21     metres, approximately, and I think Ramljane was at 563, but let me just

22     check that, or 463.  I'm just wondering what we really could and could

23     not conclude from from this map, where the witness says that he has

24     limited recollection.

25             I'm just trying to get the relevant part of P190 on my screen.

Page 28465

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I think I can fix this by my next

 2     set of questions, and, if I can't, you'll let me know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if I look at that road, and if I look to the

 4     west of that road, that I see one or perhaps two elevation lines.

 5     Whereas, between Dobrici and -- I see an elevation of 359 metres close to

 6     that, I hardly see any elevation lines in westerly direction.  And I take

 7     it that one elevation line is - let me see - I don't know exactly how

 8     many metres that is.

 9             Would that be 10 metres or would it be ...

10             I see that Mount Promina clearly is a feature, a hill with a lot

11     of elevation lines; whereas, looking between Dobrici, in the direction of

12     Perica tor, I hardly see any elevation lines.  Again, the margin, south,

13     yes.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I can understand that.  The issue

15     here is what can be seen from the road and the railroad track on this

16     axis, Dobrici, Mijakovici, and Perica tor.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'm asking myself, because on the basis

18     of a Google map which is, of course, a projection, you look from the top,

19     so it's extremely difficult to establish what exactly the elevation

20     difference is.  You have some indications.  For example, if you look at

21     the road to -- from the road to Ramljane, then you see it doesn't go

22     straight.  It goes in a kind of a hairpin.  So that may be an indication,

23     not necessarily; whereas further south, we see that from that road, from

24     the main road between Drnis and Knin, we see that a road stretches in a

25     rather -- without any - how do you call it?

Page 28466

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Switchbacks.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, it's -- to judge this on the

 3     basis of this map, which, apparently you're seeking to with the witness

 4     leaves, at least, some questions open.  If you want us to adopt the

 5     conclusions, then get rid of those questions.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I understand that, Your Honour.  Perhaps we

 7     could take a site visit and go and take a look at it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, an application can be made.  Well, not tomorrow

 9     because it might be difficult to get there.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I think can I explain this further

11     using other documents as well as ones we've marked already.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  I think it's good that you aware of me having

13     some difficulties in following exactly what can be deduced from this map

14     and from this Google Earth satellite picture.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could go to D4020

17     [sic] which was the map that was drawn on by the witness.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  2040.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  2040, I'm sorry.  Thank you.

20        Q.   Now, there are a lot of green areas indicated on this particular

21     map, Mr. Balunovic.  The light green areas, does that represent to you

22     areas that are forested or wooded, to your knowledge?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, this axis which you described in your report, P770, Dobrici,

25     Vujakovici, and Perica tor, you reported on, on -- in your written report

Page 28467

 1     of August 26th of 1995, and we'll get to that report and get it on the

 2     screen in a second.  But you had written that your group came under fire

 3     from buildings in Vujakovici which is noted in the map along the blue

 4     line there from Dobrici onto Perica tor; is that correct?

 5        A.   Again, I would like to note that I have a very poor recollection

 6     of that action.

 7             Actually, there were many actions during the war and on similar

 8     terrain at that.  As for this action, it was not discussed in such great

 9     detail during these questionings, so I really have forgotten quite a few

10     details.  I mean, right now, I cannot say for sure whether it was there

11     exactly.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could please put up P770 on the screen.

13     And, Your Honours, we're going to get the Google map elevation map out.

14     Hopefully that will assist the Chamber.  We're going to do that right now

15     while I'm doing this questioning.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

18        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, this is a report written in your handwriting dated

19     August 26th, 1995, with your signature at the bottom; correct?

20        A.   Yes.  It's my handwriting and my signature.

21        Q.   Now, on this document in part of the report, you said:

22             "My group came under fire ... we returned fire with infantry

23     weapons and anti-tank weapons, like a 64-millimetre RBR hand-held

24     rocket-launcher."

25             Before I ask, that is a Zolja, is it not?

Page 28468

 1        A.   Yes, Zoljas.

 2        Q.   And you continue:

 3             "... which resulted in several buildings and haystacks catching

 4     fire."

 5             And that, you note, happened in Vujakovici.  Now -- which is

 6     quite a distance from both the road and the rail line, would you not

 7     agree?  According to the maps that we've seen.

 8        A.   Yes, that's the way it is according to the map.

 9        Q.   Based on the fact that you were there, I know you don't recall

10     very much about what happened on August 26th.  But would you agree with

11     me that if there was any kind of fire, as you reported in Vujakovici, the

12     only thing that could be seen from the road or the rail line, based on

13     the distance and the topography and the terrain, would be smoke?

14        A.   Yes, I would agree with you.

15        Q.   Now, I'd like to discuss - hopefully I'll finish by the break -

16     the issue of General Markac and what he allegedly said to Mr. Drljo on

17     the 26th.

18             Now you said Mr. -- General Markac confronted the unit on the

19     road.  You're just not sure what road it was, but it was somewhere in the

20     vicinity of Ramljane, was it not?

21        A.   Yes, I think that's the way it was.

22        Q.   Did you know whether Mr. Janic contacted General Markac and

23     General Markac asked Mr. Janic what was up with the smoke?

24        A.   No.  I don't know anything about that.

25        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Celic at all was contact -- in contact with

Page 28469

 1     General Markac regarding the smoke?

 2        A.   No.  I don't know about that either.

 3        Q.   Now, in your 65 ter OTP statement, at page 119 of 143, you noted

 4     that Mr. -- General Markac was upset because he had been informed that

 5     smoke could be seen from the train; is that correct?

 6        A.   If that is what is written in the statement, then that is most

 7     probably what I had said.

 8        Q.   And he didn't just come to confront the unit to say -- the

 9     Lucko Unit just to say hello, he was angry; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  I think he was quite angry.

11        Q.   And on page 41 and 42 of your statement, you state:

12             "I don't know if he spoke specially to the commanders, but

13     Mr. Markac stopped our convoy.  We exited our vehicles, and he spoke to

14     all of us."

15             And on page 42, you said:

16             "I remember him being very angry.  He was very strict, very

17     abrupt."

18             Now, you were aware, were you not, that there was a specific

19     order that there not be any smoke or fire during this freedom train

20     operation?

21        A.   Well, I don't remember that order exactly.  But, of course, we

22     had been warned that we should not do anything that would be against the

23     law.  So that had to do with the treatment of civilians and property.  Of

24     course, nothing should have been done that was against the law.

25        Q.   If we could go back to your report, P770.  The last sentence of

Page 28470

 1     your report says:

 2             "I would like to point out in this report that we complied with

 3     the order not to burn Serbian houses and nothing was deliberately set on

 4     fire."

 5             Now, your P770 report here specifically says that there was an

 6     order not to burn Serbian houses.  That's correct, isn't it?

 7        A.   Again, I would like to say that if that is what I said in my

 8     statement, and my memory was fresh then, then I accept that that is the

 9     way it was.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to 65 ter 7541, please.

11        Q.   Before we get it that document, did you verbally advise Mr. Celic

12     that there was an incident of fire in Vujakovici before General Markac

13     arrived?  Meaning fire from weapons.

14        A.   I don't remember whether I informed him.

15        Q.   The document up on your screen, again, is a 16th of December,

16     2009, record of a witness interview in which you were cautioned that --

17     to speak the truth.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  And page 3 of that document, please.

19             In the Croatian version -- or in the English version, the section

20     starts, "The next day," which is about the middle of the way down.  And I

21     think it's the previous page in the Croatian version.

22             I'm sorry, it's the next page in the Croatian version.  English

23     version is fine.  Middle of the page:

24             "The next day, we conducted a search."

25             That's what I'd like highlighted, please.  If we can match that

Page 28471

 1     up, please, with the Croatian version which is also in the middle of the

 2     page.  About a third of way down, and the sentence is [B/C/S spoken].

 3        Q.   Again, we're talking about August 26th:

 4             "The next day, we conducted a search of the terrain in another

 5     part of the wider area of Knin.  Some houses were set on fire in the

 6     field that day.  I did not see who set those houses on fire, and I do not

 7     know the name of that place.  I do not remember exactly, but it seems to

 8     me, it was on that second day at the so-called finish line.  I'm not sure

 9     whether we drove before that or we were about to climb into vehicles when

10     General Markac arrived and asked who set the houses on fire.  I do not

11     remember whether he mentioned a name of a village, but it seems to me

12     that he referred to that village we passed through on the second day of

13     the operation.  As far as I remember, Franjo Drljo then angrily answered

14     General Markac that he had set those houses on fire.  Then, following an

15     order by General Markac, we returned to the base in Lucko."

16             Now, this statement differs somewhat from what you said in your

17     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor.  He was addressing the entire

18     unit, was he not?

19        A.   Well, right now, I cannot remember all those details.  But,

20     again, I would like to say that I made that statement when my memory was

21     fresh, when my health was better.  I would accept what I had said then

22     as -- as the truth, yes.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could get P770 back up, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, did I miss anything, that the fresh

25     memory in -- weren't you reading from the 2009 statement?

Page 28472

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, I was, and I'm going --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Couldn't we then see what the difference in

 3     freshness is between 2009 compared to 2010.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I think I cited those already, Your Honour.

 5     Page 41 of 143 where I said:

 6             "I don't know if he spoke especially to the commanders, but

 7     Mr. Markac stopped our convoy, we exited our vehicles, and he spoke to

 8     all of us."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the reference to the statement was not

10     the reference of the statement you had just read?  Because you were --

11     you had just read the 2009 statement, isn't it?

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I did.  And I'm going to use P770 to ask a

13     question in juxtaposition of the two.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was a bit confused by -- if you quote a

15     considerable portion of a statement.  Well, he said, I would like to say

16     that I made that statement, where you just had read the 2009 statement,

17     then it came as a bit of a --  illogical, but if you are going to clarify

18     that.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, I am, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

22        Q.   P770, Mr. Balunovic, was written a day or two, or the same day of

23     the action, was it not?  August 26th, 1995, it is dated.

24        A.   I don't remember the day or the moment when I wrote that report.

25        Q.   It was certainly a day or two after the event that you described

Page 28473

 1     in the report, was it not?  And it was certainly before December 16th of

 2     2009 and November of 2004.

 3        A.   Yes, certainly.

 4        Q.   Now, in this report, when General Markac confronted the unit and

 5     asked about the smoke, you had already had the information that you were

 6     going to put together for this particular report, that your group had

 7     come under fire from buildings and that these buildings, several

 8     buildings and haystacks, had caught fire.  While Mr. -- while

 9     General Markac was berating the unit, about the smoke, why didn't you

10     just tell him, Sir, we came under fire.  We returned fire.  Several

11     buildings and haystacks caught fire.

12             You didn't tell him that at all, did you?

13        A.   That's right.  But you think I didn't do that because Mr. Drljo

14     actually interrupted the discussion.  I already said that Mr. Markac was

15     quite upset.  And I think that Mr. Drljo's outburst and his statement

16     interrupted any further discussion in the field.  After that, Mr. Markac

17     was very offended, and he left.

18        Q.   Why didn't you then tell General Markac, Look, it was the result

19     of fire from our unit.  Drljo had nothing to do with it.

20             Were you covering for Drljo?

21        A.   No, no.  I wasn't covering for anyone.  I always behaved in a

22     soldierly manner.  I always waited to be asked.  Before I answered or

23     spoke.  I didn't want to interrupt anyone.

24        Q.   Why didn't you, right after the action, let Celic know that there

25     was some incident, so Celic could let General Markac know, verbally.

Page 28474

 1        A.   Well, I don't remember whether I did that or not.  I cannot say

 2     with certainty now.

 3        Q.   If we could go to your 2004 OTP statement, on page 118 and 119.

 4             There you describe this same August 26th incident.  And you

 5     state:

 6             "I remember us walking down this road which was allegedly mined,

 7     and I remember going first with several of my men and Mr. Drljo and

 8     Mr. Krajina behind me.  I can't remember Mr. Zinic.  I do not recall

 9     exactly, I do not know exactly what happened, but allegedly some houses

10     were set on fire.  There was smoke coming from these houses."

11             Now, you were with Drljo, according to your OTP statement of

12     2004.  And in your report of August 26th, 1995, you describe several

13     buildings and haystacks catching fire, as a result of return fire with

14     infantry weapons.

15             How can you reconcile those two, please?

16        A.   Well, I think that I said yesterday that I think that I wrote

17     that report relying on assumptions for the most part.

18             So there was shooting.  At that moment I did not see any house

19     catching fire, but I think that some houses did catch fire, so in the

20     report, on the basis of an assumption, I wrote that that is how the fire

21     happened, due to firing.

22        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, your report says:

23             "I commanded a group of 15 men," among other things.

24             And it says:

25             "My group came under fire while we were moving along the road

Page 28475

 1     towards that place.  We returned fire."

 2             You are included in the group that you are discussing, correct?

 3     In P770.

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   One final thing, Mr. Balunovic.  When the discussion occurred

 6     where you heard about Mr. Sosa and Mr. Radocaj and the allegations about

 7     people being killed or -- in Grubori and -- and Mr. Drljo, that was in

 8     2003?

 9        A.   I'm not sure about the year.  But it was -- well, I think it was

10     at the time when investigators from The Hague Tribunal started their

11     investigation.  I don't know exactly what year that was.

12        Q.   You were still a member of the special police at the time?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   It is true, is it not, that had you heard something like you

15     discussed and heard about Mr. Sosa and Mr. Radocaj, you had an obligation

16     as a special policeman to report that to your commanding officer, did you

17     not?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't think I would agree with you.

19             Actually, it had to do with the following:  People were being

20     threatened, people who were my friends.  I was being threatened.  In

21     addition to that, there is no statute of limitation on war crimes.  So I

22     thought it wasn't indispensable to take action with regard to that

23     immediately.

24             My friend Igor Radocaj said to me that he would testify.

25     However, at that time, there was talk about Mr. Igor Beneta.  There was a

Page 28476

 1     suspicion that he had committed some killings.  It was being said that he

 2     had repented and that he was a collaborating witness.  Igor and I came to

 3     the conclusion that nothing was needed yet, that things would be

 4     resolved, and that Sosa and he and I should not expose our families to

 5     the danger ever a possible revenge.  That is why we decided to wait,

 6     because we believed that the matter would be resolved even without our

 7     intervention.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm looking at the clock.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  One last question and then I'll deal with the

10     map after the break, Your Honour, if that's all right.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The --

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  The elevation map, unless the Court

13     [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps I could cut that short.  But please put

15     your last question to the witness.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

17        Q.   Mr. Balunovic, if the people on the ground at the time were not

18     telling the truth about what happened, what were the people at the top

19     supposed to believe about what happened, up the chain of command?

20        A.   I don't understand the question.  If I understood it correctly, I

21     will try to give an answer.

22             I think that the people at the top did not have any other

23     information except for the information that could have been provided to

24     them by people on the ground and possibly some other information, if

25     there were some investigations under way that people had not been aware

Page 28477

 1     of.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Balunovic.  I don't have any further questions and

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18             Mr. Kuzmanovic, I find it important always to be as transparent

19     as possible.  That means that if we consult any source which is not in

20     evidence that it should be clear to the parties that we have looked at

21     it.

22             Now, your suggestion that you could look at the elevation maps in

23     Google maps, triggered me to quickly look at it.  There, you find the

24     information which gives a clue to how it is.

25             If the parties could agree on the following.  That is, that

Page 28478

 1     between the road number 33, between Knin and Drnis, which runs north to

 2     south, between that road and the village of Ramljane, which is at

 3     approximately close to half a kilometre distance from that road, that

 4     there is an kind of a ridge at an elevation at approximately 300 metres,

 5     running north to south, parallel to the road and the railway track.  And

 6     that to the east of that ridge - that is, the elevation of the road and

 7     the railway track - that it's three elevation lines further down, which

 8     puts it at approximately 240 metres.  Whereas, to the west ridge,

 9     descending, it's two elevation lines further down, which brings you to

10     approximately 260 metres.  And that, on a distance of 4 or 500 metres,

11     allows to draw conclusions as far as visibility is concerned, if you know

12     the distance of what you see and the height of the structures you're

13     talking about.

14             If the parties would agree on that, then we can save ourselves

15     then to go through it in all kind of details.  It is exactly this Google

16     elevation maps, if you consider this to be sufficiently reliable source

17     which gives the information which does allow; whereas, the other map was

18     not accurate.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Understood, Your Honour.  I give you a A+ in

20     geography.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As long as you do not expect anything in

22     return, I'm happy with it, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you for the extra time as well,

24     Your Honour, I was glad we could finish.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 28479

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't think that we will have an issue.  If we

 2     can just have at break to look at the map myself, but I doubt --

 3     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  What I wanted to ask you, as a matter of fact, is

 5     whether you would need to re-examine the witness.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking this, just assuming that the position of

 8     the Cermak Defence and the Gotovina Defence is still the same?

 9             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             MR. KEHOE:  It is, Mr. President.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Chamber has only one question for the

13     witness, perhaps we put it to the witness and then we most likely could

14     excuse him.

15                           Further Questioned by the Court:

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Balunovic, I carefully listened to your

17     testimony.  I looked at the entire story.  Now, apparently nothing

18     worthwhile reporting happened on the 25th.  Then suddenly all kind of

19     people came from Zagreb.  We know that there were television crews or at

20     least one crew on the 27th.  Everyone goes there, Mr. Sacic, Mr. Cermak,

21     you go there, apparently you said you had to return from Zagreb.

22     Mr. Celic was there.  You saw dead bodies, everything you did not expect

23     to be there.

24             Your answer, did you ask what had happened?  You said, Well, no.

25     I mean, isn't it true that the first thing everyone wanted to know who

Page 28480

 1     came to that place apparently alerted by information about dead bodies

 2     being found there, that the first question that would come to everyone's

 3     mind is: What has happened here?

 4             Nevertheless, the gist of your testimony is that that seemed not

 5     to have been anything that was discussed, spoken about.  You said you

 6     were shocked.  And then that's the end of the whole story.

 7             That is what you told us, isn't it

 8        A.   Well, Your Honour, I would like to point out once again that

 9     probably among these people, I was the policeman or soldier who was at

10     the lowest level in terms of hierarchy.  Of course, I wondered what had

11     happened and when.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Balunovic, let me stop you there.  You were in

13     the presence of others, whatever rank you are, a human being, having been

14     so close to the events at the edge of Grubori village, whatever his rank

15     is, wouldn't you - and that was my question - would it not be the normal

16     thing to expect that everyone, high-ranking or low-ranking, would want to

17     know what happened and would discuss what had happened, or ask what has

18     happened, or listen to what others said had happened.  That's what I

19     would, under normal circumstances, expect that would take place on that

20     27th.  And you tell us, I don't know anything, I didn't hear anything

21     about how these events had developed.  I didn't ask anything.  I didn't

22     hear anyone -- others ask about it.  It's -- that's it.

23             But that appears to be your testimony, isn't it?  Apart from the

24     reasons you may have given.

25        A.   Please allow me to explain.

Page 28481

 1             I always --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you to explain.  I asked you whether

 3     that is what your testimony is, apart from how it is explained.  No one

 4     talked about it.  No one asked what happened.  No one -- you didn't ask.

 5     You didn't receive any further information.  No one else asked.  No one

 6     said anything.  It was just -- well, of course, you said a few things, an

 7     observation that someone said, it's not done by a knife, but it's done by

 8     a bullet.

 9             But how this could have happened and how it happened, apart from

10     such technical details, was not discussed.  You didn't hear any

11     discussion about it.  You didn't ask anything.  You apparently did not

12     discuss it with Mr. Celic, to whom you had reported two days prior to

13     that.

14             That is what your testimony is, is it?

15        A.   Well, I'm sorry, but I would not fully agree with you.

16             I said as much as I could, on the basis of my recollection of

17     what had happened.  Again, I would like to note that I was a soldier who

18     was there to obey orders, not to put questions to his superiors about

19     anything.  That is how I always perceived my role.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And when you say, "I said as much as I could," that

21     is -- you are referring to your testimony today; or are you referring to

22     what you may have said when you visited Grubori on the 27th of August?

23        A.   I'm talking about my testimony here.

24             I would like to note that, finally, when I testified in Croatia,

25     I gave the information that I had about that, as to who it might have

Page 28482

 1     been that did that and how.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Balunovic, this concludes your testimony.  May I

 3     take it that the questions by the Bench have not triggered --

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I would have one question, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I already went quite a bit beyond the

 6     time.  If it is just one question Mr. Hedaraly, and I'm looking at

 7     everyone assisting us, then ...

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  It is not necessary, Your Honour.  I will withdraw

 9     the question.  It is not crucial, but it was related to the point that

10     Your Honour was exploring.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  If you withdraw the question, then this concludes

12     your testimony, Mr. Balunovic.

13             I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way, and I

14     hope that you will be able to return as soon as possible, which is

15     uncertain in these times.  I, at least, want to thank you for having

16     answered the questions that you were put to you by the parties and by the

17     Bench, and I wish you, slow or quick, a safe return home.

18             You may follow the usher.

19             I would like to continue --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- after the break, quarter past 12.00 [sic].  I

23     hope that I can deal with quite some procedural matters.  Most likely, we

24     will have no time to go through the MFI list.  I would suggest to the

25     parties that if the next witness does not arrive in time that we would

Page 28483

 1     have a housekeeping session tomorrow morning at 9.00 and go through the

 2     MFI list, which is not very long, but then have a clean desk again.

 3             We will also, perhaps, be in a position then to discuss further

 4     scheduling of this week because we might know more about the arrival of

 5     the next witness.

 6             No objection?  We resume at quarter past 1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.57 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I first would like to deliver a decision by the

10     Chamber.

11             The Chamber would now like to issue its decision concerning the

12     Markac Defence motion for an order to prevent the Prosecution from

13     relying upon Defence materials protected by Rule 70(A) of the Tribunal's

14     Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

15             On the 24th of February, 2010, the Markac Defence filed a motion

16     for an order to prevent the Prosecution from relying on materials which

17     it claims are protected by Rule 70(A).  The document in question is a

18     report titled: "Analysis of military police in Operation Storm."  The

19     report was prepared by the Croatian Ministry of Defence, in response to a

20     Request for Assistance from the Markac Defence.  In its motion, the

21     Markac Defence argued that the document is protected by Rule 70(A),

22     because it was prepared by the Ministry of Defence at the request of the

23     Markac Defence, for the purposes of the proceedings before the Chamber.

24             On the 4th of March, the Prosecution responded, requesting that

25     the motion be denied.  The Prosecution submitted that the document is not

Page 28484

 1     protected by Rule 70(A), because it was produced by the military police

 2     administration of the Ministry of Defence, and then distributed

 3     internally and archived by the Ministry of Defence.  At the Prosecution's

 4     request, the Ministry of Defence provided the Prosecution with a copy of

 5     the document.  Finally, the Prosecution argued that Croatian government

 6     organs and officials could not be considered a party's representative or

 7     assistants, as a result of a Request for Assistance or the receiving of

 8     such assistance.

 9             Under Rule 70(A), reports, memoranda, or other internal documents

10     prepared by a party, its assistants, or representatives in connection

11     with the investigation or preparation of the case, are not subject to

12     disclosure or notification under Rules 66 and 67.

13             The report in question was not prepared by the Markac Defence.

14     Instead, the report was prepared by the military police administration of

15     the Croatian Ministry of Defence.  In its request to Croatia, the Markac

16     Defence did not specify that it sought a report to be compiled for

17     exclusive use by the Markac Defence.  Furthermore, the parts of the

18     report that have been filed before the Chamber do not indicate that

19     Croatia intended such exclusive use.  In fact, the report was distributed

20     within and archived at the Ministry of Defence.  It appears from the

21     report that, when compiling the report, the Ministry of Defence

22     considered itself to be acting in accordance with its obligation to

23     provide assistance.  Furthermore, Croatia also provided the Prosecution

24     with a report at the Prosecution's request.  Consequently, there are no

25     indications that the Markac Defence, and Croatia agreed, that the report

Page 28485

 1     could only be used internally by the Markac Defence.  In any event, it is

 2     not clear that such agreement between the Defence and a state could lead

 3     to a state becoming a member, assistant, or representative of the Defence

 4     in the sense of Rule 70(A), or whether such agreement would be consistent

 5     with a state's obligation towards the Tribunal under the Statute.  Be

 6     that as it may, in the present case, the Chamber concludes that the mere

 7     fact that the report was prepared pursuant to a Request for Assistance

 8     from the Markac Defence does not turn the report into an internal Markac

 9     Defence document in the sense of Rule 70(A).

10             Consequently, the Chamber finds that the report does not fall

11     within the scope of Rule 70(A), and, accordingly, the Chamber denies the

12     Markac Defence motion.

13             And this concludes the Chamber's ruling on this matter.

14             I would now like to give a statement in relation to the Brioni

15     transcript P461.

16             The Chamber would like to address the transcription and

17     translation of the Brioni transcript, which is in evidence as P461.

18             On the 1st of April, 2009, the Gotovina Defence filed a revised

19     version of the Brioni transcript, pointing out shortcomings in the

20     transcription and translation of P461.

21             On the 15th of April, 2009, the Prosecution responded, agreeing

22     to only four minor corrections of P461 and objecting to all the other

23     modifications proposed by the Gotovina Defence.

24             On 20 January 2010, the Chamber instructed the Gotovina Defence

25     to send to CLSS certain parts of P461 for verification and to get back to

Page 28486

 1     the Chamber as soon as CLSS had sent the results.

 2             On the 12th of February, 2010, the Gotovina Defence filed a

 3     memorandum compiled by CLSS and containing eight transcription and

 4     translation clarifications.

 5             In order to have in evidence a faithful transcription and

 6     translation of the meeting held in Brioni on the 31st of July, 1995, P461

 7     should reflect the corrections set out by CLSS and filed by the Gotovina

 8     Defence on the 12th of February, 2010, as well as the four minor

 9     corrections conceded in the Prosecution's request [sic] to

10     Ante Gotovina's submissions regarding P461, Brioni transcript, which was

11     filed on the 15th of April, 2009.

12             At the same time, the Chamber is mindful that P461 has been

13     discussed with several witnesses in this trial, and therefore considers

14     important that the original version of P461 remains traceable in the

15     evidence, for the purpose of fully understanding and properly assessing

16     the relevant evidence of those witnesses.  To this end, the Chamber

17     invites the Gotovina Defence, which had originally moved for a revision

18     of this exhibit, to do the following:

19             The Gotovina Defence should upload into e-court a new version of

20     P461, both in B/C/S and in English, with the CLSS memorandum attached.

21             First, that new version should include an annotation, in both the

22     English and the B/C/S transcripts, wherever a part of the meeting was not

23     transcribed; and each annotation should clearly and correctly reference

24     the relevant part of the CLSS memorandum.

25             Second, the new transcripts should reflect the corrections

Page 28487

 1     conceded by the Prosecution in its response.  Three of these corrections

 2     concern a wrongly identified speaker, while one concerns the omission of

 3     a press release read out by President Tudjman.  The Gotovina Defence

 4     should make annotations in the transcripts precisely reflecting these

 5     changes.

 6             As far as the first two steps are concerned, the Chamber invites

 7     the Gotovina Defence to look at Exhibit P2526 as an example of how to

 8     proceed.  The Chamber emphasises that it must be clear, to the extent

 9     possible, exactly where missing text should be inserted.

10             Third, the new English transcript should reflect the corrections

11     in translation made by CLSS.  These corrections should be typed in bold,

12     reflecting exactly what is contained in the CLSS memorandum.  The Chamber

13     stresses that, when annotating P461, all text should appear on the same

14     pages; thus, avoiding any confusion with regard to page numbers.

15             Fourth, the new document, comprised of the new transcripts and

16     the CLSS memorandum, should be uploaded with the following title:

17     Presidential transcripts of meeting held in Brioni on 31st of July, 1995,

18     including modifications as agreed by the parties and references to the

19     attached CLSS memorandum in relation to disputed portions of the original

20     transcription and translation.

21             Once the documents have been up loaded, the Gotovina Defence

22     shall notify the Chamber as well as the other parties, who will have one

23     week to raise any objections they may have.  After that, if no objections

24     are raised, the Registry is hereby instructed to substitute the present

25     version of P461 with the newly uploaded version and to notify the

Page 28488

 1     Chamber, as well as the parties, when it has done so.

 2             And this concludes the statement on P461.

 3             The third item on the agenda is the 1991 census.

 4             The -- when the parties have made -- had invited the parties to

 5     make submissions on the admission of the 1991 population census in its

 6     entirety, the Gotovina Defence responded that it would be beneficial to

 7     all parties if they were informed of the purposes for which the census

 8     was intended to be used before it would make submissions.

 9             In an e-mail, dated the 13th of April, 2010, the Chamber observed

10     the following:  That was an e-mail addressed to the parties.  Under

11     Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, admission of a

12     document depends on relevance and probative value.  With respect to

13     relevance, the Chamber notes that the 1991 population census provides

14     data on the size of the population and its ethnic composition for

15     specific areas in the Republic of Croatia in 1991.  Such data may provide

16     context and/or corroboration to other evidence before the Chamber and

17     assist it in making factual determinations relevant to the indictment.

18             The Chamber is aware that the census data relate to 1991 and

19     emphasises that any decision on admission would not be an indication of

20     the weight, if any, which the Chamber may ultimately attach to the census

21     and its content.

22             In that same e-mail, the parties were invited to make any further

23     submissions, not later than the 20th of April, which is today.  Is the

24     Chamber to expect any further submissions by today or ...

25             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I can just state it orally, if the

Page 28489

 1     Chamber doesn't mind.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not mind.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Very briefly.  In light of the Chamber's reference

 4     to 89(C), I think obviously it will be admissible as is.  Our suggestion

 5     or offer, I guess, is if the Chamber has specific issues or questions

 6     related to population issues, whether broadly or in a particular area, we

 7     certainly would invite the Chamber to invite the parties to make further

 8     submissions so that the parties can address any issues that the Chamber

 9     might have.

10             But as to the admissibility of the document, I believe the

11     Chamber does have the authority and the Rules to ask for the evidence,

12     and obviously it would be admissible under 89(C).

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means now there are no objections anymore to

14     the full census to be admitted into evidence.  I'm looking at the

15     parties.  Who is going to upload the complete census?

16             MR. HEDARALY:  It's already uploaded as 65 ter 7575 [Realtime

17     transcript read in error "7557"], Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to the ...

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I suggest that we make it a Chamber exhibit

21     which explains what --

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What the original of the admission into evidence is.

24             Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 28490

 1     Exhibit C5.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I -- I saw you were on your feet,

 3     Mr. Hedaraly.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I just wanted to inform Mr. Registrar, when the

 5     transcript came out as 7557.  It was 65 ter 7575, so there is no

 6     confusion.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes 7575.  C5 is admitted into evidence.

 8             The Chamber appreciates the offer that it can seek, if it wishes

 9     to do so, the assistance of the parties in further exploring population

10     issues.

11             Then I move on to the next item.

12             The Chamber has notified the parties on the 19th of April of its

13     decision to deny the request of the Gotovina Defence for leave to reply

14     with regard to the motion requesting the Trial Chamber to issue decisions

15     on certain motions by no later than 30 April 2010.

16             We are talking about two motions:  Prosecution's application for

17     an order pursuant to Rule 54 bis, that's one of them; the other one is

18     the motion, in which the Gotovina Defence seeks enforcement of the

19     Trial Chamber's previous Rule 54 bis order compelling access to the

20     archives of the EUMM.

21             Now, I think today the Gotovina Defence communicated they desired

22     to be heard on that issue.  Is that what happened?

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, there is a decision which was

25     communicated to the parties yesterday in an informal way.

Page 28491

 1             MR. KEHOE:  And, Mr. President, that -- we didn't attempt to

 2     relitigate that particular issue.  It was just given where we were

 3     scheduling-wise, some indication from the Chamber whether or not there

 4     would be a decision on that score, on the motion --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If would you not mind, if you would deal with

 6     that tomorrow --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if at all possible.  But it's on our mind, and

 9     we'll see whether we can further deal with the matter tomorrow.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Just so I can be clear, and with all due respect to

11     counsel, we were not attempting to relitigate the issue that was denied

12     yesterday.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  And today we might not have --

14     how much time would you need to make further submissions, Mr. Kehoe.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, we weren't necessarily going to go

16     into that which we were going to raise in the response.  But if -- I

17     don't -- I think what we just were just asking the Chamber is a

18     discussion on whether or not we can expect a decision on the motion.

19     That's all.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The motion asks for a decision to be rendered

21     within a certain time, and now you're inquiring whether this motion --

22             MR. KEHOE:  Correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- when we'll -- it's --

24             MR. KEHOE:  It's -- clearly they're connected, when will there be

25     a decision or will there be a decision on the Prosecutor's Rule 54 bis

Page 28492

 1     motion prior to 30th of April, given where we are in the court

 2     proceedings at this juncture.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  There are --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  And that is also tied to our motion, of course, to

 5     request such a decision.  So they're merged.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you want to know when you will receive a

 7     decision on the motion in which you ask other motions will be decided

 8     within a certain time-frame.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  And if that -- such a decision will be by the 30th of

10     April.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  It's perfectly clear, Mr. Kehoe.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, just one short procedural matter

13     before we break, is that my client, and I believe all three of clients,

14     wish permission to be excused from attending the hearing tomorrow.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is fully understandable, that you would

16     rather not be present and that you rely on counsel dealing appropriately

17     and accurately with the matters which are on the table.

18             Therefore, leave is granted for all three.

19             One, and last one, the Markac Defence has requested that a

20     section of the transcript relating to Donji Lapac be moved from private

21     session and put into open session.  I did put that on the record on the

22     26th of March.

23             Now, we have not heard of any objections since then by any of the

24     other parties.  Are there any?

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.

Page 28493

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I do not hear any objections from the

 2     other parties, which means that the Registrar is hereby instructed to

 3     unseal pages 27860, line 22, to 27861, line 19.

 4             We'll adjourn for the day, and we'll continue -- resume on

 5     Wednesday morning, the 21st of April, 9.00, in Courtroom I.

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

 7                            to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

 8                            April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.