1 Thursday, 22 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
8 Good morning to everyone in and around the courtroom.
9 This is case number IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Gotovina et al. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 We will hear the testimony of the next witness today.
13 Mr. Registrar, have we any information from VWS about protective
14 measures being sought or not?
15 THE REGISTRAR: The witness didn't request any protective
16 measures, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 Then counsel has been assigned to the next witness in -- for
19 reasons known to the parties. Counsel assigned is Ms. Tomanovic.
20 You're there, Ms. Tomanovic. Welcome in this courtroom. You
21 asked for a delay in the start today for one hour and that -- in view of
22 the tight schedule and in view of the fact that we have a rather tight
23 schedule today and tomorrow, the Chamber did not grant that request at
24 this moment. Nevertheless, if you'd like to raise any matter, then I
25 think it would best be raised in the presence of the witness.
1 And I did understand that you would like to address the Court in
2 private session. Is that correct.
3 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
4 morning to everybody in the courtroom and around the courtroom.
5 It is correct. I would like to discuss an issue, and I would
6 kindly ask for the witness's presence in the courtroom during that time.
7 Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And you'd like to address the Court in private
10 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Since I have to mention a
11 number of things that are best be kept in private session, at least for
12 the time being.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the witness may be brought into the
14 courtroom, and before he enters the courtroom, we should move in private
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 28534-28537 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE ORIE: We're now back in open session.
11 May the witness be brought into the courtroom.
12 Ms. Tomanovic, you had time to consult with your client?
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. For the short period of
15 15 minutes, we have completed our consultations and the witness himself
16 will tell you what his decision is. If you want me to, I can do that.
17 But I think he would prefer to do that himself.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Decisions are on a question-by-question basis.
19 Mr. Krajina, before you give testimony in this court, you're
20 required to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the
21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 Could I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: BOZO KRAJINA
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Krajina.
3 Mr. Krajina, before we start your examination, I will briefly set
4 out your right not to incriminate yourself which you most likely have
5 discussed in quite some detail now with Ms. Tomanovic. Under Rule 90(E),
6 you are granted a right to object to making a statement which might tend
7 to incriminate yourself.
8 Now, what the Chamber then could do is whether or not to compel
9 you seems, at this moment, not to be -- it seems that it's not necessary
10 to deal with that at this very moment. If it comes to that and it
11 perhaps may never come to that, then we'll further explain to you.
12 That means that if a truthful answer of a question that will be
13 put to you, if that may tend to incriminate yourself, that is, that you
14 would give evidence which could be used against you and then, of course,
15 more specifically now in the ongoing proceedings in Croatia, which might
16 be prejudicial to your position, but it could be anything else. It's not
17 limited to the prosecution. If we would ask you questions about other
18 matters where a truthful answer would incriminate yourself, then, of
19 course, the same would be true; but it is clearly understood that your
20 thoughts are focussing on the ongoing proceedings in Croatia.
21 So if an answer, a truthful answer, would be prejudicial for you,
22 then you may object to answer that question.
23 I will also briefly explain to you why that is. That is because
24 in Croatia
25 which might prejudicial to yourself. Now, as a witness having given a
1 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, of course, if you
2 answer a question you would have to tell the truth, which could create a
3 dilemma. The dilemma either not to tell the truth, and, in that way,
4 protect your interests in the ongoing proceedings in Croatia; or to
5 truthfully answer that question but then to jeopardise your own position
6 in the Croatian proceedings.
7 Now, that dilemma is a dilemma which should be avoided, and
8 that's the background of this Rule. Therefore, I'll start asking you
9 questions. If any question arises and if you are in doubt, you may
10 consult with Ms. Tomanovic. If you are coming to an area where you
11 consider that possibly a truthful answer would tend to incriminate
12 yourself, then you may object. And if you want to consult with
13 Ms. Tomanovic on that matter --
14 And, Ms. Tomanovic, I take it that it's perfectly clear to you
15 that we are not -- your presence is not here to have an orchestrated
16 testimony but that are you here for the primary purpose and that the
17 witness may consult you for the reason that you advise him on whether or
18 not it would be wise for him to decide to object to answer a certain
20 Your role is clear.
21 Your position is clear, Mr. Krajina.
22 Any further questions in this context?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's start.
25 But before I put my first questions to you, you perhaps also
1 should be aware, although it may not be of any influence to your
2 decision, that, of course, this Chamber has received quite some evidence
3 on the events in Grubori. Therefore, if it is a matter which would not
4 -- is not risky for you, to say it that way, that you might give an
5 answer that tends to incriminate yourself, that, of course, then this
6 Chamber would establish facts without any additional knowledge you may --
7 additional knowledge of facts you could provide to the Chamber. So,
8 therefore the fact that you would not testify on certain matters does not
9 mean - just for your understanding - that this Chamber would then stay
10 away from that as well. It's just your testimony which would then not be
12 Is that clear?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's get started.
15 Could I briefly address the parties. Is there anything I should
16 have added in the present situation where the witness has consulted for
17 at least some hours with the counsel, whether I should inform him in --
18 on any other aspect of his right not to incriminate himself?
19 If not, we'll start.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE ORIE: First, Mr. Krajina, could you please state your full
22 name and date of birth for the record.
23 A. Bozo Krajina, born on the 1st of January, 1957.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you state your -- could you state to what unit
25 you belonged in August 1995?
1 A. Anti-terrorist unit of Lucko.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And that's a unit of the special police?
3 A. It is not a unit of the special police. It is an anti-terrorist
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what rank you had in 1995? And
6 I'm talking about August.
7 A. Specialist training instructor.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that Lucko Unit, could you tell us in
9 what operations it was involved in the second half of August 1995?
10 A. Operation Storm and Operation Storm Encirclement, or Ring.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Operation Storm, from what moment to what moment?
12 A. Operation Storm, from the 4th to the 6th.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking you about the second half of August.
14 So that is not in that time-period.
15 Now --
16 A. No, that's not it. Operation Storm Encirclement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which took place when exactly?
18 A. On the 25th and the 26th of August.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The operations on the 25th and 26th had a specific
20 name, Storm Encirclement?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: On the 25th, what was the type of operation the unit
23 was conducting?
24 A. It was a search operation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In what area?
1 A. In the area of Grubori.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Were you involved in that operation on the 25th?
3 Did you take part in it?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, in the morning of the 25th, were
6 you briefed, and, if so, how were you briefed, that is, where and in what
7 terms, about this operation?
8 A. Well, I don't really remember the morning and what the briefing
9 was like, but I do know that there was some sort of conversation taking
10 place with the operation commander and that the directions in which we
11 were supposed to move and the areas we were supposed to search were
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us who the operations commander was?
14 A. Assistant Commander Josip Celic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember where you were -- where had you
16 stayed during the night of the 24th to the 25th?
17 A. In Gracac.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And do you remember whether you were briefed in
19 Gracac, or were you briefed at -- after you had left Gracac?
20 A. As far as I remember, there was no special briefing in Gracac.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Where did you then receive any direction as to how
22 to move and from where to move?
23 A. As far as I remember, this took place at the starting line, the
24 point from where we started.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Who took you there, to the starting line? Who
1 knew where the starting line was?
2 A. Assistant Commander Celic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how did you go there? By car, or by bus,
4 or how many cars were there?
5 A. We used vehicles that were normally used by the unit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many of you were there, approximately, on
7 that day, as members of the unit?
8 A. Roughly 45.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Did you receive maps of the area?
10 A. Yes, we received maps.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how was the unit organised that day? Did
12 it operate as one unit, or was it divided in any way?
13 A. It was divided into groups.
14 JUDGE ORIE: How many groups?
15 A. Four.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, were they approximately equally composed in
18 A. No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you describe how, then, the groups were
20 composed? What was the difference between the several groups?
21 A. The groups differed only in terms of their numbers.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, were the groups led by specific persons? Were
23 there group leaders?
24 A. Yes. Each group had its leader.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us who the group leaders were?
1 A. Stjepan Zinic, Branko Balunovic, Franjo Drljo, and Bozo Krajina.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what your group - and I do
3 understand that you were one of the group leaders - what your group
4 encountered and experienced during the operation on the 25th of August?
5 You would like -- if you would like to consult with
6 Ms. Tomanovic, then you may do so.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Switch off your microphones, if you ...
9 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer the question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You object to answering that question.
12 When I asked you that question, of course, I would have expected
13 either this objection or a fully truthful answer.
14 Is there anything you can tell us about that operation, even if
15 it's not the complete story, so, therefore, leaving out any detail that
16 could incriminate yourself.
17 Is there anything else you could tell us about the operation?
18 For example, when did it start; at what time approximately did it finish?
19 I don't know whether that would incriminate you, but that might be a fact
20 which -- I'm not suggesting anything. And please consult with
21 Ms. Tomanovic, if -- if you have any doubts.
22 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I consult with my client,
23 I would like to let the Trial Chamber know the following: I don't know
24 how privy you are with the statement the witness had given to the ICTY
25 investigators, I would only like to recall the following situation: That
1 any answer that my client may give today to a question about Grubori
2 might result, and rightly so, in the cross-examination by any of the
4 Perhaps you might find it difficult to grasp why it is that he
5 would not wish to answer a question, but answering a question might have
6 a great -- grave consequences for him in the future.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If any question in cross-examination, if any
8 truthful answer to a question put to the witness in cross-examination
9 would tend to incriminate himself, the same would apply. So, therefore,
10 if I'm asking about the time -- I mean, the witness will be
11 cross-examined anyhow on anything. Has -- well, the parties can
12 cross-examine the witness anyhow.
13 But, as I said before, this is mainly a matter of question by
14 question. If I, therefore, ask about what time did it take and -- well,
15 let's say the witness would say, From 4.00 to 6.00 in the afternoon, and
16 if then, in cross-examination, one of the parties would say, Did you see
17 any flames in Grubori, then even if he has answered the question in
18 relation to the time, that he still can object to answer the question
19 about the flames he may have seen in Grubori.
20 So I don't know whether that's -- but I'm also looking at the
21 parties, whether -- whether there's any dispute about what I just told
22 the witness.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from what consequences that would have for the
25 evaluation of the evidence given by this witness. That -- that's, of
1 course, a totally different matter. It may well be that if he answers
2 some of the -- well, let's say -- some of the rather neutral questions
3 and doesn't answer the other questions, then, of course, to what extent
4 we could and should rely on the answers to the neutral questions, but
5 that's another matter, as far as I'm concerned.
6 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I understand, Your Honour. And I do want to
8 address that. Maybe -- I don't -- I wouldn't want the witness to be
9 tainted by what I say, so ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we could ask him to --
11 Do you understand any English, Mr. Krajina? Do you speak or
12 understand any English?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, apart from that, legal English is even
15 sometimes incomprehensible even if you do understand the language.
16 Could you take your earphones off for a second.
17 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I think the witness has
19 stated earlier, when Your Honour asked the question about the events in
20 Grubori and he deadlined to answer, I think if -- and I understand the
21 Court's position about things like asking about the time or the
22 weather -- I think what we're doing potentially is entering a slippery
23 slope and eroding potentially the 90(H) privilege by getting into subject
24 matter regarding that specific incident. I just think it's a fine line
25 that perhaps -- I know the subject matter is obviously interesting and
1 necessary for the Court to come to a resolution on what that particular
2 incident, in terms of what happened there. But I think it is a very fine
3 line to ask questions about when it started, when it ended. It --
4 potentially blending that -- I mean, if that -- if the witness feels
5 that's self -- potentially self-incriminatory, the time that it happened
6 or what kind of weather conditions there were, that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I say the following. I could have imagined
8 that the witness would have refused to answer the question, whether he
9 was present during the day, whether he was a member of that unit. Now
10 despite the fact that the Chamber received at least some evidence that he
11 was, I could -- but once -- but even then, if for one reason or another,
12 if you consider the time-frame to be self-incriminatory, for example,
13 knowledge of these kind of things, and that's also the reason why I
14 phrased the question very cautiously. I said is there anything you can
15 tell us, without incriminating yourself.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I do --
17 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness can answer, No, I cannot, that comes
18 down -- that would, as a matter of fact, repeat his objection to
19 answering questions of this kind.
20 At the same time, the Chamber and the parties have a duty do
21 elicit from the witness what could reasonably elicit from him -- elicited
22 from him as evidence, at the same time, fully respecting him, his right
23 not to incriminate himself.
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I do agree with Your Honour. And I do agree
25 with the neutral methodology of the questioning. I don't have any
1 problem with that.
2 My concern is that this is an line. How close do you get to the
3 line without crossing over it; that's really the concern that I have.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what I just said is that the witness said,
5 If I answer any question, I will be cross-examined on the events. Then I
6 explained that if he thinks that he could answer a question without
7 incriminating himself, that, if cross-examined on the events of the 25th,
8 that we would take a similar cautious approach and that it's not, once
9 given one answer because he has given one already, that, therefore, the
10 whole of the 25th, that he would be compelled to answer questions. That
11 seems to be based on a misunderstanding. Because it goes, as I said
12 before, question by question.
13 For example, you could cross-examine him on the make of the
14 vehicles. And if you say we went there with our vehicles, then I -- I
15 can imagine that the witness would have no difficulties in answering
16 that. But if you would ask questions which are far more sensitive, then,
17 of course, the same would apply and the witness would invoke his -- or
18 would object to answering the question and we would, as you may know,
19 unless it could not possibly be understood that a question could be
20 self-incriminating, that we would respect that.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Totally understood, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm just raising a sort of a caution --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see you're talking about fine lines. It's
25 the duty of this Chamber to carefully look at those lines and to draw
1 them as sharply as possible and as cautiously as possible with full
2 respect for the witness not to incriminate himself.
3 Any further observations to be made?
4 MR. KEHOE: Just a comment, Mr. President. This is just as an
5 officer of the court, since this doesn't involve our client, but there is
6 some difficulty in the questions. I mean, I could just look at the
7 question that you just gave right now about the vehicles and the makes of
8 the vehicles and Your Honour noted that that wouldn't be necessarily
9 culpatory. Well, in fact --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know.
11 MR. KEHOE: Well, that's right. That's the problem. In fact, it
12 could be.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But, therefore, Ms. Tomanovic is here. And if the
14 witness has any doubt -- and as you may have noted, if Ms. -- if the
15 witness has no doubt but if Ms. Tomanovic sees any problem there, I would
16 not -- as a matter of fact, she --
17 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- took the initiative also to communicate with the
19 witness, and that's -- I didn't stop her to do that. So, therefore,
20 it's --
21 MR. KEHOE: If I could just complete my response.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: I mean, with regard to the neutrality of a question
24 about the vehicles, it could be patently neutral. However, given the
25 evidence that's in the Chamber, any response of that could be quite
1 inculpatory unbeknownst to the witness or counsel.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time it's the witness who invokes
3 the right, and --
4 MR. KEHOE: I understand --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- if he overlooks any possible [Overlapping
6 speakers] ...
7 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's the problem, Judge.
8 That's really, really -- with all due respect, Mr. President, that's
9 really not something I believe we want to engage in, whether or not he
10 overlooks something given those circumstances.
11 Again, this has nothing do with my client. However, there is a
12 difficulty when we get into those things about what is inculpatory.
13 Number one we have the issue of whether or not this witness knows it's
14 inculpatory, and the other is whether or not it's inculpatory unbeknownst
15 to the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that, well, let's -- let me not
17 further comment on it.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you put on your earphones again. Yes.
20 Is there anything you could tell us about the operation where, if
21 specifically asked about that matter, you would not object to answer such
22 a question?
23 If you want to consult with Ms. Tomanovic, that's fine.
24 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
25 A. I cannot answer any questions about that incident. Any answer to
1 any such question would incriminate me.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't ask about an incident, but I take it
3 for granted that you refer to an incident which may have happened during
4 this operation.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Where the Chamber, according to the Rule, may compel
7 to you answer the question, the Chamber will not.
8 Then I would like to move on. And perhaps we do it in broad
9 terms. Is there anything you could tell us about the reporting, that is,
10 to your hierarchical superiors, on these events?
11 Yes, Ms. Tomanovic.
12 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I would have to
13 consult with my client with regard to his answer to this particular
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... please do so and
16 feel free to do so even without the permission of the Court next time.
17 MS. TOMANOVIC: Thank you.
18 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
19 A. I cannot answer any questions about reporting.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you object to answering that question, as I
21 understand. Whether you can or not answer is a different matter.
22 But in court you say you fear that a truthful answer would
23 incriminate yourself -- would tend to incriminate yourself and,
24 therefore, you object to answering that question. The Chamber will not
25 insist and will not compel you to answer that question.
1 Now, let me -- would you give the same answer on not formal
2 reporting but discussing the events with colleagues or anyone else, on
3 what happened on the 25th? That -- would you also object to answer
4 questions about informal conversations about the events?
5 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
6 A. My answer would be the same.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now let me take you to the second day of what
8 you called the Storm Encirclement Operation on the 25th and the 26th.
9 On the 26th, was the -- the Lucko Unit, as you said, was involved
10 in an operation. Could you tell us what that operation was?
11 A. As for the 26th and what happened on that day, in the earlier
12 morning hours, we were brought to the launch line, and our axis, as far
13 as I can remember, was the village of Ramljane
14 given our axis of deployment, and from the launch line we set out in
15 groups, but we did not stay with the same groups all the time. As -- as
16 the day progressed, the groups merged.
17 We passed through the village of Ramljane
18 long. The whole area was uninhabited. We reached the final line of our
19 operation. There were vehicles there, waiting for us to take us back to
21 JUDGE ORIE: You said the group -- the groups merged. Did you
22 start in a similar way as the day before, that is, in four groups; or
23 were you already, at the start, divided in groups which were different
24 from the 25th?
25 A. The groups were the same. And the manner of operation was the
1 same, which means that we set out from the launch line, from the starting
2 position. We spread out in a skirmish line, and we proceeded from there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you said later the group -- the groups
4 merged. Do you remember where and when?
5 A. That was during the operation, once we reached the village of
7 JUDGE ORIE: It was already in the village of Ramljane
8 groups merged?
9 A. I wouldn't be able to state that for a fact. I -- I don't really
10 remember whether it was in Ramljane or even before. But as far as I can
11 remember, we merged in the village of Ramljane
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In which direction did you move: east to
13 west, west to east, north to south, south to north? Could you tell us
15 A. I believe, and as far as I can remember, let me tell you, when
16 are you in the field it's very difficult to determine the directions, and
17 I believe that it was -- the axis was south-east/north-west. That was
18 the axis of movement.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, this Chamber received evidence that east
20 of Ramljane there is a road from Knin to Drnis, which is parallel to a
21 railway track. Now, did you end at the railway track, or did you start
22 at the railway track, or are you not aware of where that railway track
23 and that road - I think the number is road 33 - is?
24 A. I only know that we ended our search at the railway station.
25 That's the only thing that I remember, the only time I saw a railway line
1 at all.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would it assist you if we would have a look at map;
3 or would you say, Well, a map wouldn't help me in further refreshing my
4 memory as to in what direction we moved?
5 A. I'm sure that it would help me to remember the direction of
6 movement. If -- if I were to look at a map, that would certainly help
8 JUDGE ORIE: I am -- I think it's P190, which is the large map,
9 which we could zoom in then on the relevant area as we did before.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have P190 on the screen.
12 It takes a while to get a map on -- could we zoom in Knin-Drnis
13 area. Yes, perhaps that's ... yes. Could we further zoom in. A little
14 bit -- the northern part of the -- not -- not further to the south.
15 Further to further north. By far, further north.
16 Could we -- no, we should ...
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we zoom it a bit further. Yes.
19 Witness, this map is the Ramljane -- is about the Ramljane area.
20 Do you see the north/south main road approximately in the middle of the
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see, in the upper part, the name of a village
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Do you see Vujakovici to the west of that?
2 A. I do.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you see further to the west a small settlement by
4 the name of Perica tor?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Does this map assist you in telling us in what
7 direction you moved?
8 A. Looking at the map, and starting from Perica Tor towards Dobrici,
9 and if that was that, then the direction of our movement would be from
10 west to east.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you describe what your group encountered
12 and experienced during this operation?
13 A. What I remember from that day and from that operation is this: I
14 saw Commander Stjepan Zinic in the village. The village was abandoned.
15 There was nobody in the village. We did not stay there at all --
16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... interrupt you
17 for a moment. You said "in the village." What village are you referring
19 A. Ramljane.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please continue. You saw Mr. Zinic there.
21 A. We left the village and we proceeded. We continued our
22 operation. In one part of our route we reached a facility. In the
23 courtyard of that facility there was some ten individuals. I remember
24 that one person from the column went in the direction of those
25 individuals and the intention was to ask them whether we were on a good
1 route. We proceeded. We did not see anybody else. And on that second
2 day, operation ended at the Strmica railway station.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if you say we ended at the Strmica
4 railway station, did you walk to the Strmica railway station? Is that --
5 you reached that by walking?
6 A. Yes. We went there, and we reached that on foot.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, perhaps Ms. Tomanovic carefully listens
8 to my next question.
9 This Chamber has heard evidence that the operation on the 25th
10 ended at a railway track close to the Strmica railway station and that it
11 was in that area that the unit would find their vehicles again, boarded
12 those vehicles, and returned to Gracac.
13 Is there any way that -- any chance that you're mixing up what
14 happened on the 25th and the 26th? Because it's quite a distance to walk
15 to Strmica from this place.
16 A. Well, it is possible that I have made a mistake, that I'm wrong.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then take you back to the operation. You
18 said you saw some ten people. You asked whether you were on the right
20 Did you see any smoke or fire at -- no, let me first ask you.
21 Was there any exchange of fire, of fire-arms, during that operation on
22 the 26th?
23 A. No, there was no exchange of -- of fire at all.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't hear any fire-arms?
25 A. No, I did not hear any fire being opened. What we heard were
1 just sporadic shot, as we called it, an individual round being fired
2 every now and then. That was all.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you use any anti-tank weapons on that day?
4 A. On that day, our mission was to scour the terrain, and when that
5 was the mission, we did not carry any anti-tank weapons.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see any smoke or any fire on that day?
7 A. Yes, we -- we could see smoke. As we were leaving the village,
8 as we -- as we were at a certain distance from the village, we could see
10 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see any fire? Any burning structures?
11 A. I did not see fire, but we could see smoke. As I've told you, we
12 were at a certain distance from the village. As we were leaving the
13 village and as we were at a certain distance from the village, we could
14 see smoke.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you remember that you reported on the events
16 on the 26th? I should say "whether you reported."
17 A. No, I did not write any reports about the 26th.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Could we have P771 on the screen.
20 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
21 Are you able to read it, Mr. Krajina?
22 A. Yes, I can read.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is this --
24 A. But it would be even better if the whole thing could be blown up
25 a bit more.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to have it on the -- on the entire
2 screen, perhaps, I think everyone who needs to consult the English text
3 has it available.
4 A. Much better.
5 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina. The -- my first question was whether
7 you could read it. You've answered that question.
8 My second question would be: Do you recognise this as your
10 A. I don't recognise this. And I claim that this is not my
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is it the first time that you see this report,
13 Mr. Krajina. You --
14 A. Yes. I've never seen this report before. This is the first time
15 I see it, indeed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You say this is not what I wrote, you did not write
17 the report, and this is not your handwriting. Is that ...
18 A. Yes, this is my testimony. I did not write this report. This is
19 not my handwriting, no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we don't have to pay further attention to what
21 is written -- well, this report says, even if it's not your report, that:
22 "As a result of the use of anti-tank weapons, some buildings
23 caught fire and that in the vicinity of those buildings there were stacks
24 of hay and straw."
25 Does that report, even if it's not yours - and we have other
1 reports from that day; I'm not intending to read all of them to you -
2 does that in any way refresh your memory in relation to your earlier
4 A. It does not tell me anything new.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you earlier said that you had no anti-tank
6 weapons, that you have seen smoke, but you have not linked in any way the
7 use of anti-tank weapons to fire and smoke. So, to that extent, it is
8 new, comparing this report with your early -- your testimony earlier
10 So I just wanted to put that to you as an addition to whether
11 this refreshes your memory.
12 A. No, it does not refresh my memory.
13 I've already said before that, as far as I remember, no anti-tank
14 assets were used. That would have been obvious had that been the case.
15 And as for the rest, there's nothing in it that could refresh my memory.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Also not, because that seems to be new here as well,
17 that the unit was pursuing parts of the terrorist group that was on the
18 run and that you came -- you had come under infantry fire.
19 A. On the 26th, there was no such contact, as the one you hint at in
20 your question. There were no terrorists, anti-tank weapons were not
21 used. On that second day, we simply passed through the village without
22 stopping there.
23 At a certain point, we met a number of individuals and proceeded
24 on our way. I don't remember anything related to the use of anti-tank
25 weapons. Well, not that I don't remember. Probably had there been such
1 fire, I would have remembered it. The use of anti-tank weapons is not
2 something that could be overlooked.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were talking, you passed through the
4 village. Would that be true that -- did you pass through other villages
5 as well; or was it just the Ramljane village; or whether there were any
6 other settlements that you passed through?
7 A. As I said, we passed along the road and through the village. I
8 only remember that one house where there were a number of individuals
9 present. And I can't really tell you that we passed by abandoned houses
10 on our way. I don't remember that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because this report mentions a village of
12 Grkanici, whereas when you are talking about the village, I understood
13 that you were talking about the village of Ramljane
14 A. I have a vague memory of Ramljane. Now, as for Grkanici, I don't
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, on the map at some -- at some -- and in
17 other evidence this Chamber has received, a village of Vujakovici
18 mentioned. Do you have any recollection of that village?
19 A. I don't recall that village either.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Vucenovici. Does that ...
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you remember that you passed only through
23 the village of Ramljane
24 settlements, small groups of houses?
25 A. As I've already said, I do recollect the village or hamlet we
1 went through. I don't remember the rest.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you nowhere encountered any terrorists, or
3 you were nowhere shot at by infantry weapons?
4 A. No. We never came across terrorists and -- or under fire.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think it's -- we need a break first.
6 We'll resume at 20 minutes past 11.00.
7 Ms. Tomanovic, if you would need further time, then it -- perhaps
8 it could be arranged that you further discuss matters with Mr. Krajina.
9 We take a break.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.21 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
14 I already inform the parties, but I think you are informed about
15 it already, that we'd like to continue in the afternoon. Our expectation
16 at this moment would be, but we still have to find out how reliable that
17 is, that we might finish in one session this afternoon. And because,
18 then, for the second half of the afternoon, we have -- another case is
19 scheduled in the courtroom.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina, we left off after I had asked you some
22 questions about the events and the handwritten report on the events of
23 the 26th of August in the Ramljane area.
24 Now, during or after that operation, do you -- do you have any
25 recollection as to having seen Mr. Markac?
1 A. Yes, I saw Mr. Markac.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us where and under what
4 A. As the operation concluded and we got into our vehicles, we set
5 off for Gracac. At one stretch of the road, and I can't tell you which,
6 we came upon Mr. Markac, who stopped our column, and that's where
7 conversations took place.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you -- got off your vehicles?
9 A. Yes, we got out of our vehicles.
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... now was the
11 whole unit assembled there or was it just some members of the unit which
12 were part of a conversation with Mr. Markac?
13 A. The whole unit gathered.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there anyone in the unit which would not
15 have heard what Mr. Markac said? Of course, you can't tell us whether
16 someone heard or not, but was there anyone at a distance from Mr. Markac
17 that you assessed that he could not hear what Mr. Markac had said?
18 A. It is possible.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could you tell us, what did Mr. Markac say?
20 A. He roughly said that we should not have done that, and that, for
21 several reasons, somebody sent word that we should all be arrested and
22 shipped to Zagreb
23 JUDGE ORIE: Was it planned that you would be shipped to Zagreb
24 anyhow, or was that something new for you?
25 A. There were no specific plans in place. The plan was that, once
1 the terrain was searched, we would head for Zagreb. But there were no
2 special plans made.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What, he said, you shouldn't have done?
4 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you now how it was that he said
5 it, but he probably meant the burning of houses.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You say "he probably meant."
7 Was he referring to the burning of houses? I mean, if someone
8 says you should be arrested, I'd like to know what I should be arrested
9 for, isn't it?
10 A. You see, the conversation took place by the road, on our way
11 back. Groups of people got out of their cars. And since these
12 individuals were young people, 19-year-olds not that trained in what they
13 were doing, it was customary for us to be at the rear of the column. So
14 by the time I got out of my vehicle, discussions were already taking
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any response from members of the
17 team to what Mr. Markac said?
18 A. To the best of my knowledge and based on what I heard, he had an
19 argument with one of the leaders of the groups.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Who was that?
21 A. Franjo Drljo.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You said based on what you heard. You mean you
23 personally observed, you heard when that argument was ongoing?
24 A. Yes. While I was there, I was listening to that part of their
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What did Mr. Drljo say?
2 A. Well, I don't know how precise I can be in trying to quote their
4 I think it was roughly the following: What was it that I did?
5 Well, I can't really repeat the words because I don't remember them. But
6 I think the gist of what they said -- what he said is something I
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then repeat that, because then I may have
9 missed it.
10 What was the gist of what Mr. Drljo said, in response to
11 Mr. Markac?
12 A. Well, I said the gist was, I did it, so what can you do about it?
13 What can you do to me?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you told us that you had not seen any smoke or
15 fire up till the moment that you arrived at the finish line.
16 Now, didn't you say, We didn't do anything; or -- I mean, you
17 told us that at least your unit had not seen any smoke that early or had
18 not seen any fire that early.
19 A. As far as I'm able to follow all this, what I said was that, on
20 our way out of the village and as we were at a certain distance from the
21 village, smoke could already be seen. What I said we didn't see was
22 fire, flames.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you said that; I just verified.
24 So -- and you linked the words of Mr. Markac with the smoke you
25 had seen which you considered possibly the result of burning structures.
1 Is that how I have to understand your answer?
2 A. Yes. You can understand in that way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Did any of the other team members respond to what
4 Mr. Markac said?
5 A. I don't know.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Was it during that conversation that reporting,
7 writing reports, was, at any moment, mentioned by whomever, by ...
8 A. At that point, there was no mention of writing any reports.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Was there ever a moment that you were instructed to
10 write a report on the events of the 26th of August?
11 A. Well, instructions, not really; but some indications could be
12 told, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: When was that?
14 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that, simply because I don't know.
15 Given my previous membership of the unit, where I did not have
16 occasion to write reports, and when I tell you that indications were
17 given, well, we would give some indications to the effect of how much
18 ammunition was spent. And that's what I meant when I said it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, "indications," is that a kind of a rough
20 oral reporting you are referring to, or putting it on paper, or ...
21 A. Yes. I meant orally and giving an approximation.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, as far as the Ramljane operation is
23 concerned, do you remember to have ever been invited or that it was ever
24 suggested to you that you write a report about the events on that day?
25 A. I wasn't asked to write a report, nor was anyone else, and I
1 never wrote a report about Ramljane and the second day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina, this Chamber has heard evidence and has
3 seen other reports similar to the one I showed you earlier, which were
4 written by the other team leaders. And the Chamber also received
5 evidence that they were specifically invited to write such reports. So,
6 therefore, you would be the only one who was not invited and did not
7 write a report on the events; I'm talking about the 26th, Ramljane.
8 I'm just seeking your comment on why you were in a different
9 position compared to the other group leaders.
10 A. I cannot account for the fact that somebody else wrote a report.
11 I cannot give you an explanation for it. But I definitely do not
12 recollect writing a report about the second day.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to move on and ... after the encounter
14 with Mr. Markac, where did the unit go? Did you go back to Gracac, or
15 did you go anywhere else?
16 A. We set out for Zagreb
17 JUDGE ORIE: You returned immediately to Zagreb. Was that for
18 the whole of the unit?
19 A. Yes. The entire unit set out for Zagreb right away.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't have any personal belongings that were
21 left in Gracac which you had to collect?
22 A. I don't remember that. Given the number of vehicles involved,
23 given the operations involved, and orders that came from the top, we
24 always used vehicles. We carried everything in our vehicles.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now we earlier did talk, or, rather, did not talk
2 much about the events on the 25th in Grubori. Did you, at any other
3 time - so I'm not talking about the 25th, I'm not talking about the
4 26th - but did you at any other time ever return to Grubori or the near
5 vicinity of that village? I don't know whether you have been there,
6 because we didn't discuss it. But did you ever go there, well, let's say
7 27th, 28th, any day after the 25th?
8 A. No, never after those events did I go to the area, let alone
9 visit any of these villages.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the next issue I would like to ask you
11 questions about is about reports that have been written about the events
12 in the Plavno area, including Grubori, on the 25th. So this clearly now
13 relates to the Grubori event.
14 The Chamber has received in evidence reports, written reports,
15 about what happened on the 25th. My first question to you would be:
16 Whether you ever wrote a report on the events of the 25th?
17 And I'm not surprised that Ms. Tomanovic wants to consult with
18 you, or that ...
19 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the entire question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to ask you whether you ever wrote a
22 report on the events of the 25th of August.
23 A. I cannot answer the question.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You object to answering that question.
25 Are you aware of any of the other group leaders writing reports
1 on the events of the 25th?
2 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot talk about it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Were you ever instructed or invited to write a
5 report, irrespective of whether you did so?
6 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer the question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you ever seen a report which bears your
9 name and is about the 25th of August?
10 A. I cannot answer the question.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: I will move on to another subject.
13 Did you, after the operation and then the years following, did
14 you ever hear any information as to who would have been responsible for
15 the death of persons whose dead bodies had been found in Grubori on the
16 25th of August or in the days immediately following that 25th?
17 A. By your leave, I would like to explain the situation I was in at
18 the time more extensively, and then you will conclude for yourself what
19 the answer is.
20 Following all these events, before which I had gone through a
21 personal tragedy involving my family, I spent a little time in the army
22 in early 1996 -- or, rather, I spent some time in the army because of my
23 speciality which is explosives.
24 After having talked to Mr. Markac, he decided to deploy me to
25 various parts of Croatia
2 Now, why did I make this introduction? For several months until
3 early 1996, I was in the unit; whereas, from 1996 up until late 1999 or
4 early 2000, I only went to be together with the unit sporadically and did
5 not have occasion to meet the members of the unit that often which
6 prevented me from discussing any sort of events with them.
7 I don't know if I've made myself clear enough or sensible in all
8 of this. But I wanted to portray the situation I was in, i.e., I did not
9 have many contacts with members of the unit.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's not really an answer to my
12 My question is whether you heard anything about perpetratorship
13 of incidents that may have taken place in Grubori. Whether it was in
14 1995, in 2000, in 2005, yesterday, whatever.
15 A. I didn't hear anything. I don't know who may have done it. I
16 never spoke to anybody about that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in an interview which took place in 2005,
18 you are reported to have said that, at that time, you had recently heard
19 stories but that you'd rather not repeat the stories.
20 Does that, in any way, refresh your recollection as to whether
21 you ever heard any stories about this?
22 A. I don't know. I don't remember ever having stated that I'd heard
24 But it is possible that I did not want to go over some stories.
25 But I didn't say anything specific. I don't think it's very mature or
1 responsible to tell anybody what you heard, what rumours have.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you are asked about that, it's for the
3 Chamber who receives that evidence to see what the probative value of it
5 So, therefore, my question again: "In 2005 - and with -- if I'm
6 misrepresenting that evidence, I'll hear from the parties. I'd rather
7 not go through the whole exercise of going through it.
8 In 2005, you stated that you recently had heard such stories,
9 that you would rather not repeat the stories also because they might turn
10 out not to be true. And that everyone in the Lucko Unit knows the
11 stories, and that Mr. Janic knows that story. And that's in a recorded
13 Does this refresh your recollection as to what you said in 2005,
14 which is five years ago?
15 A. I remember that interview. I remember who the interview was
16 with. And I remember that a question was worded to that effect.
17 I don't remember, as I sit here today, what I said. I -- the
18 interview took two days with certain people, and over those two days, I
19 believe that I may have said something to that effect. But, as far as I
20 can remember this particular question, and now you have jogged my memory,
21 the question was, If I didn't know anything about those stories, is there
22 anybody else who would be privy to any of the rumours. And I didn't only
23 mention Janic but I also mentioned Ranko Ostojic, if my memory serves me
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, could you tell us what those rumours
2 A. I did not mention having heard any stories myself. What happened
3 was this: They asked me if I was able to tell them if there was anybody
4 better suited to know what stories were told among the men. And then I
5 mentioned those two names. I really don't remember having said anything
6 specifically about any stories that I may have heard. And the way you
7 put it now is it seems that I did hear stories but I never conveyed those
8 stories, I didn't want to convey any of the stories that I might have
9 heard, but I -- I, rather, pointed a finger at somebody else.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you're invited - and I'm asking you - to
11 convey the stories to this Chamber.
12 A. I emphasise once again: I don't remember that I used a single
13 word that would indicate that I was aware of the contents of any stories
14 or any stories at all. And I really don't know what you expect me to
15 tell you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you say, I don't want to tell the story
17 because they may be not true, then it comes as a surprise that you say, I
18 don't know the stories. Because then you would have answered that
19 question, I can't tell you the stories, because I don't know what they
20 are. That's different from saying, I don't want to tell the stories.
21 And if you say that everyone else knows the stories, then, at least, that
22 also suggests that you are aware of the content of stories, rumours,
23 whatever you call it. And we could check that, but I don't have the
24 65 ter number of the 11th of January, 2005, interview.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's 7550, Mr. President. And if you could
1 tell me the page number on the e-court --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think we are at part 2 - I have split that up -
3 part 2, which starts at 128 and continues until 132 and 133.
4 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, could we ask the witness to take
6 his headphones off, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Could you take your earphones off for a second, Mr. Krajina.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 At the risk of being provocative, I object to this line of
11 questioning because this -- what you're asking this witness to do is to
12 speculate upon speculation. And the -- whatever value - the witness has
13 already twice said he doesn't know of any stories - but whatever value
14 these stories might have is miniscule. And there is -- the only
15 probative value is that the Bench is cross-examining this witness on his
16 credibility with respect to what he said about stories in his testimony
17 and what he said about his stories in his statement.
18 And I would like to further state on the record that what he said
19 on his statement about the issue of the confrontation of Mr. Drljo was
20 quite different from what he said in court and the Court -- what he said
21 here in court, and the Chamber did not vigorously cross-examine him on
22 the discrepancy there.
23 So it's my position that with this particular line of
24 questioning, you're asking, first of all, the witness to speculate; and
25 second of all, I believe that picking and choosing the issue on which the
1 Chamber wants to test the witness's credibility on is dramatically unfair
2 to my client in this circumstance.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, first of all, if there is any area where you
4 would find it appropriate to further test the credibility and the
5 reliability, of course, you have an opportunity do so.
6 To say that the Chamber is under a duty to test, in every
7 respect, if it, at all, puts the reliability and the credibility to a
8 test, that it's under a duty to do that with every inconsistency, I would
9 like to hear any authority of such a duty for the Chamber.
10 Secondly, I do not invite the witness to speculate. I just ask
11 him what the rumours were that he heard or what the stories were that he
12 heard. Nothing else. Nothing more. Nothing less. I'm not asking him
13 to invent stories, just where, at an earlier occasion, he told about
14 stories, and where he said, I do not want to give the stories. The
15 witness now says -- well, at least -- you could consider his answers that
16 they have some evasive element, and what I'm doing is, at this moment, to
17 further test his evidence.
18 But, again, to say, If you touch upon one element of
19 inconsistency, if you are testing the credibility and reliability in this
20 respect, that the Chamber has a duty to test that in every respect,
21 that's not a duty for the Chamber, as it is not a duty for the parties.
22 Or are you aware of any practice in which you say, Once you start testing
23 the reliability and the credibility of a witness, then have you to do
24 that on every possible issue where you could reasonably do so. That's
25 apparently what you require of the Chamber.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, you can cross-examine the witness on his
3 credibility and reliability on the matter you just mentioned.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I never said it was a duty, Your Honour. I said
5 it was [Overlapping speakers] ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said it was unfair to your client.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I do believe it is.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber is under a duty not to behave
9 unfairly to your client. So, therefore, it's -- I -- with this rather
10 strong words that it's unfair to your client, since I understand that a
11 Chamber should not behave unfairly to one of the accused, it comes down
12 to the same as having a duty.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Well, it's my position, Your Honour, and I
14 wanted to put it on the record, that I'm here to protect the interests of
15 my client. It's my position that the manner in which the Chamber is
16 testing the credibility of this witness, specifically with this issue, as
17 compared to the issue of the confrontation, is not fair to my client.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the record. I'll consult with my
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you put your earphones on again, Mr. Krajina.
22 Q. Mr. Kuzmanovic, after having consulted my colleagues, could you
23 tell us what those stories or rumours were, if -- no, let's me -- could
24 you tell us what they were. And perhaps I take you back to your
1 Could we go to -- it's page 133, but I don't know whether that's
2 also the ...
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if this is 133 of section 2,
4 that will be on e-court page 296.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 296. Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
6 Q. Yes, you are recorded to have said the following. You first
8 "It's difficult for me to say something that could be following
9 me or haunting me for my whole life."
10 Then you further said:
11 "You see, I said I know about the story, I can't say I have the
13 And then you say:
14 "Let's say I tell you the story and it turns out the story is not
15 correct at all."
16 Now, all those answers - and we could go through more of the
17 pages - do suggest that you know what the stories are but that you are
18 hesitant to convey them to the person who interviews you.
19 Now, my question to you is again: Could you tell us what that
20 story or those stories were?
21 A. I can see that one could conclude that I did know the stories
22 from the answers that you have just read out to me.
23 But let me tell you once again, whether you believe it or not, I
24 am not aware of the contents of any of the stories. The only story that
25 continued to be told was that somebody will be taken to task, will be
1 held responsible for the events that had happened.
2 To this very day, I don't know, I'm not aware of any stories,
3 although contrary -- the contrary may be concluded from my answers, but I
4 still adhere by my statement that I never as much as hinted that I was
5 aware of the contents of the stories.
6 However, when I was asked whether there was somebody else who
7 would be privy to the contents of those stories, since I didn't know any
8 of them, and the two persons that I named were at the very top, or close
9 to the top, I mentioned the two of them. That's the only explanation of
10 the whole situation.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina, I have no further questions for you.
13 Could I receive an estimate of the times needed for
15 Ms. Mahindaratne.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, less than a session. I believe
17 about, you know, half to two-thirds of a session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. About the same,
20 probably less than -- half to two
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Two times a half is a whole session. Two
22 times two-thirds is one session and a half.
23 Could I ask --
24 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
1 MR. KEHOE: No questions, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just looking at the clock. There's a fair
3 chance that -- we need another break. There's a fair chance that we
4 would not finish before the lunch break. We'll certainly finish in the
5 first session after the lunch break, but depending on your efficiency,
6 you may be in a position to save yourself a -- an afternoon session.
7 Because, after the break, we'll have five-quarters of an hour left.
8 We'll have a break, and we'll resume at 12.30.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
13 Perhaps when I said you could save yourself an afternoon session
14 I was a bit too quick because we have some housekeeping matters which I
15 had on my mind to deal with a after we had finished with this witness.
16 So if we finish before the lunch break then there still would be an
17 afternoon session. But, on practical matters and whether the accused
18 wanted to be present at that moment, of course, is a different matter.
19 That's ...
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to cross-examine the
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina, you will now be cross-examined by
25 Ms. Mahindaratne. Ms. Mahindaratne is counsel for the Prosecution.
1 Cross-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krajina.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. I will start off by asking questions that don't relate to the
5 substance of the events in Grubori so that you won't find any difficulty
6 in answering the questions.
7 To start off with, is it correct that you were promoted as an
8 assistant commander within the Lucko Unit in November 1995?
9 A. It is not correct.
10 Q. Were you promoted after Operation Storm? Maybe the time-frame
11 was incorrect. But were you promoted as an assistant commander of the
12 Lucko Unit?
13 A. I was promoted into instructor of specialist training which is
14 one level below, and that was after Operation Flash. Or, rather, between
15 Operations Flash and Storm. That's when I received that decision to be
16 promoted as an inspector [as interpreted] of specialist training. In
17 other words, even before Operation Storm, I was an instructor. Before
19 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I will have to
20 correct the transcript. I believe that it will be of assistance to the
21 Prosecutor. Mr. Krajina said on page 47, line 17, not an "inspector" but
22 an "instructor."
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Instructor, yes.
24 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] And there is a major difference
25 there. Not an inspector but an instructor.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
2 Q. Mr. Krajina, were you promoted after Operation Storm, any time
3 after Operation Storm, to a position above what you held during the
4 course of Operation Storm?
5 A. In 1996, yes. That's when I was promoted as an assistant
7 Q. That's just what I wanted to establish.
8 Now, prior to setting off on operation -- on the search operation
9 on 25th or on the 26th, did you receive any instructions from either
10 Mr. Celic or any one of the members of the inner control branch or any
11 other commanders or Mr. Markac as to how to treat civilians or prisoners,
12 when you took them, or how to treat private property?
13 A. Since we had been trained during our regular training, we already
14 knew and were informed about certain conventions. During our regular
15 training, we had learnt about that, and during previous operations, that
16 was normal. And I repeat: During our training, we had learnt about
18 And as I sit here today I really don't recall that anything
19 special was said about the Rules of International Law on the eve of that
20 particular operation.
21 Q. Okay. Mr. Krajina, the Chamber questioned you about reports, and
22 now I'm moving to the operation on 26th August, that is, the operation
23 conducted in the area of Ramljane, and you were questioned about
24 reporting after the incident.
25 My first question is: Do group leaders submit written reports
1 after search operations, generally?
2 A. When it comes to a general question, I can answer that it is only
3 normal that group leaders do submit reports. But in a certain way, and
4 with a bit of -- of -- but not with a delay. That's what I'm saying.
5 Q. No, but my question is do group leaders submit written reports?
6 Not oral reports, but written reports? I'm referring to special
7 instructors leading groups in the terrain. Do you submit reports to the
8 assistant commander who is leading the operation on the -- the -- the
9 activities of the day on the particular operation, as to what your group
10 went through?
11 Do you understand what I'm asking?
12 A. Yes, I do understand. Yes. They submit written reports and only
13 written reports. And at least that was common practice at the time.
14 Q. And when you say "they," you're including yourself? You submit
15 written reports after an operation; is that what you're saying?
16 A. Could I please consult with my counsel? Thank you.
17 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
19 Q. Are you able to understand my question, Mr. Krajina?
20 My -- my question is: You, as a group leader, leading a group in
21 an operation, at the end of the operation, do you submit a written report
22 about the activities of your group?
23 Let's say in the -- generally, if it's Mr. Celic who is
24 commanding the operation, to Mr. Celic, or if it's -- if the operation is
25 commanded by somebody else, to that person?
1 A. In general terms, or generally speaking and speaking from
2 practice, it was only the commander of the entire operation who submitted
3 a -- reports.
4 I don't know if I made myself clear enough. Did I answer your
5 question properly? In general terms, as far as I know from previous
6 practice, and given the fact that I was not at those levels, I cannot
7 speculate whether that was a rule or not. I can only speak in general
8 terms. At the moment when I was promoted to a certain level, the common
9 practice was --
10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krajina, I think you
11 misunderstood me. You know, as I understood, you were a special
12 instructor leading a group in the course of 26th August operation.
13 Now, in such instances, you as a group leader - I'm not asking
14 about the assistant commanders, the commanders who lead the entire
15 operation - the group leaders, are you required -- as I understand your
16 testimony, what you just said, you are not required to submit written
17 reports. It's only the commander who leads the entire operation that
18 submits written reports. Is that correct?
19 A. In this particular case, or in such cases, the common practice
20 was that group leaders, leading certain groups, also submitted written
21 reports. But since there were hints that certain events might have
22 happened, then group leaders were asked to submit reports. And if
23 nothing has occurred during an operation, if there were no unusual things
24 happening, then it was only the commander of the entire operation who
25 submitted his report.
1 Q. Okay. Now, today when the Chamber, His Honour, asked you about a
2 report on the 26th, this is what you said. You -- this is at page 34:
3 "Was it during" --
4 No, it's -- you were asked a question:
5 "Was it during that conversation that reporting, writing reports,
6 was, at any moment, mentioned by whomever ..."
7 "At that point, there was no mention of writing any reports."
8 Then you were asked a question:
9 "Was there ever a moment that you were instructed to write a
10 report on the events of the 26th of August?"
11 This is the question that the Judge asked you. And your answer
13 "Well, instructions, not really; but some indications could be
14 told, yes."
15 "When was that?"
16 "I wouldn't be able to tell you ... simply because I don't know.
17 Given my previous membership of the unit, where I did not have occasion
18 to write reports, and when I tell you that indications were given, well,
19 we would give some indications to the effect of how much ammunition was
20 spent. And that's what I mean when I said it."
21 Wait a minute, Mr. Krajina, please.
22 Then you go on to say, you were asked questions:
23 "Now, as far as the Ramljane operation is concerned, do you
24 remember to have ever been invited or that it was ever suggested to you
25 that you write a report about the events on that day?"
1 "I wasn't asked to write a report, nor was anyone else, and I
2 never wrote a report about Ramljane and the second day."
3 Now, after the operation on Ramljane, did you provide a verbal
4 report to Mr. Celic as to the fact that nothing happened in the course of
5 the operation with regard to your group? Did you provide a verbal
7 A. As far as I remember, my group was not that important in the
8 whole matter. And I don't recall talking to Celic about any events.
9 Q. Now, you clearly said -- your testimony here was that in the
10 course of this operation there was no exchange of fire.
11 Now, to your own knowledge, did any of the other groups, those
12 groups led by Mr. Zinic or Mr. Balunovic or Mr. Drljo, did any of the
13 other groups meet with resistance from the enemy and was there an
14 exchange of fire, to your knowledge?
15 A. They did not find themselves in a situation where the extent of
16 fire would have constituted a clash. What I heard was that there was
17 sporadic shooting, and I don't recall. And I'm sure I didn't state that
18 there was a clash, that a combat situation ensued where there was an
19 exchange of fire of such an intensity that it would amount to a combat
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, may I have document P767,
23 Q. Mr. Krajina, I appreciate that you may not have seen this
24 document, or perhaps you may be familiar. You see on the screen a report
25 submitted by Mr. Celic on the events of the 26th August, and you can read
1 the contents.
2 A. On the 26th of August, 1995, at 0930 --
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
4 A. -- on the order --
5 Q. You don't have to read it aloud. Can you read it for yourself.
6 That's all right. It will be easier for you if you read it --
7 A. It's fine, yes.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, can we have - if the parties
9 are not following the English document - the full Croatian version on the
10 screen? It might be easier for the witness. Yes.
11 Q. Let us know, Mr. Krajina, once you've finished.
12 A. It's fine.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness has not been able to read the
14 whole of the document because it has not been on the screen.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if you could --
16 Q. Once you finish this page, Mr. Krajina, if you indicate, I will
17 have the -- yes.
18 Have you finished, Mr. Krajina?
19 A. No. Give me a moment.
20 I have finished reading.
21 Q. My first question is: Have you seen this document before,
22 Mr. Krajina?
23 A. No, I haven't.
24 Q. Now, in this report, there is -- I'm drawing your attention to a
25 particular section of this report, which records:
1 "During the clearing of the terrain, both groups encountered
2 resistance. They came under fire from infantry weapons which were left
3 in the village during the escape. As they were shooting at the enemy,
4 the groups also fired with anti-tank weapons, which resulted in the
6 Now, based on your testimony here, Mr. Krajina, that is a false
7 report; isn't that right? It is -- it is inaccurate what -- the section
8 that I just read to you is an inaccurate report?
9 A. To the best of my knowledge, no. Based on what I recall, I can
10 state again that that's not how this event unfolded. And if you will
11 allow me to, I should like to say something on this score.
12 May I?
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 A. It may have to do with this report.
15 This report is written by the operation commander. It is a known
16 matter that the operation commander would go to the starting line and
17 wait for us. I never wrote a report in relation to the 26th of August,
18 and I stand by what I said. I don't know where he obtained the
19 information that these were the events that happened in the area.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat what he just said.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
23 Q. Mr. Krajina --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajina, what are you doing is you are
25 exploring what could explain that this was reported. However,
1 Ms. Mahindaratne asked you one thing, is whether this report is accurate.
2 And especially where the report says:
3 "Both groups encountered resistance. They came under fire from
4 infantry weapons, which were left in the village during the escape."
5 That is not what you testified today. And to that extent, this
6 report does not accurately reflect what you remember happened that day.
7 Is that correct?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, that it is not
9 consistent with what I remember of the day.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Mr. Krajina, at any stage, either when you got back to Zagreb
13 the 26th or sometime thereafter, was there a discussion amongst the four
14 group leaders or members of the Lucko Unit as to what happened on the
15 26th August in the course of the operation?
16 Did you discuss as to what happened, why you were sent to Zagreb
17 the smoke? Was there any discussion at all?
18 A. There were no official discussions about it.
19 Q. Unofficially?
20 A. No. Neither those, as far as I'm concerned. I don't remember
21 talking to anyone on this issue.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Krajina, your testimony is that, after -- at the -- when
23 you -- I think -- let me just quote to you exactly what you said. This
24 is at line -- page 26, line 15. You were asked as to what happened, you
1 "Yes, we could see smoke as we were leaving the village, as we
2 were at a certain distance from the village we could see smoke."
3 Now, when you say "as we were leaving the village," this is the
4 village of Ramljane, isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So did you then inquire from anybody as to what the smoke was,
7 what the cause of the smoke was?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Now, later on, you discussed in your testimony that Mr. Markac
10 arrived at the scene and that there was a discussion between Mr. Markac
11 and Mr. Drljo. And you said that Mr. Markac probably spoke about the
12 houses burning.
13 Now, didn't you yourself want to find out as to how the houses
14 burnt? You were a group leader; you led a group of men in the -- in the
15 course of the operation. Didn't you think it would be appropriate for
16 you to find out as to how the houses burnt?
17 A. I will say this first. I didn't say that General Markac came to
18 the very place or that he came across our column on our way back. What I
19 said was that he came across us toward the very end of the action.
20 I didn't feel the need to have any additional discussions because
21 I was responsible only for the group that was assigned to me. At the
22 time, and I don't know how to put it, I believed that none of the members
23 of my group did that, burn any houses. And I was not in a situation
24 where I could put questions. What mattered to me was that my group had
25 not done it. Since -- and also in view of the fact that by the time I
1 had been instructor only for several days.
2 I don't know if this answers your question.
3 Q. Now, did you find out later on as to which group was responsible
4 for burning houses? And you said your group, you know -- knew was not
5 responsible. But did you find out as to whether any other group was
6 responsible for the burning of the houses?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, there's an important thing missing
9 in the translation.
10 Page 56, line 8, after "I didn't say" -- that sentence, the
11 second part of that sentence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Perhaps we read that then, again, to the witness.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript tells us that you said:
16 "I didn't say that General Markac came to the very place or that
17 he came across our column on our way back. What I said was that he came
18 across us toward the very end of the action."
19 Now, Mr. Kuzmanovic says that this is not your complete answer.
20 What did you say else from what I read?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that General Markac came
22 upon us or stopped us at a stretch of the road, and I couldn't tell you
23 which exactly, after the end of the action, of the operation.
24 If that had to do with your question.
25 JUDGE ORIE: This apparently satisfied Mr. Kuzmanovic.
1 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
3 Q. Mr. Krajina, my previous question to you was: Did you, at any
4 time afterwards, find out which group was responsible for burning the
5 houses in Ramljane? You said your group wasn't. Did you find out which
6 group was?
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I think the question lacks foundation, the first
8 question. First it's compound, but -- if the witness could take his
9 earphones off, Your Honour. I don't want do suggest the ...
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take your earphones off, yes.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: The question should be, first of all, were --
12 was there a house or houses or anything burning in Ramljane, number one.
13 And number two, if so, which group was responsible.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that Ms. Mahindaratne put a very leading
15 question because the question implied a fact which was not established,
16 at least not by this witness. Therefore, it's leading, which --
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I believe she can ask a leading question,
18 Your Honour, but I think that question has a fact in it that needs to be
19 established by this witness first before the second part can be asked.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although, that could also be considered part
21 of the leading element, to include a fact.
22 At the same time, it would not help us that much,
23 Ms. Mahindaratne, if --
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Let me break it into two, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please to do.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
2 Q. Mr. Krajina, isn't is correct -- I'm sorry.
3 Mr. Krajina, isn't it correct that in the course of the operation
4 in Ramljane, members of the Lucko Unit - and I'm not directing this
5 against you personally - but members of the Lucko Unit burnt house in the
6 village of Ramljane?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Now, did you find out, afterwards, as to who, which group, was
9 responsible for the -- for that activity?
10 A. No, I didn't find it out nor was that in my line of duty to
11 uncover these matters. This was not within my powers, nor did my role
12 allow me to engage in uncovering who did what out in the field,
13 especially when I know that the group had its leader and that it didn't
14 have anything to do with me.
15 Under those circumstances, I felt it best -- or, rather, I felt
16 it -- I felt that the most important thing was that I knew for sure that
17 it had not been done by anyone from my group.
18 Q. Now, earlier on you said that Mr. Markac came to the -- and this
19 is what you said:
20 "I said that General Markac came upon us or stopped us at a
21 stretch of the road, and I couldn't tell you which exactly, after the end
22 of the action, of the operation."
23 Now, isn't it correct that Mr. Markac, from -- and he was
24 addressing you all and having a conversation with Mr. Drljo, from that
25 position, one could see smoke and fire in the village of Ramljane
1 is, the position where Mr. Markac was and the Lucko Unit?
2 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you whether one could see smoke from
3 that vantage point. I simply don't remember, and I wouldn't want to
4 guess. Was this something that the lay -- that the lie of the land
5 permitted, to see the smoke? And I don't want to guess whether he was
6 able to see smoke from that point. But he somehow managed to see it or
7 got to know about it which prompted him to stop our column. I don't
9 Your question was whether, from that vantage point, when
10 General Markac intercepted us, whether he was able to see smoke. I can't
11 tell you that. I don't remember that. I don't remember the lie of the
12 land. And I can't tell you if he was able to see it from that very spot
13 or not.
14 Q. Mr. Krajina, I asked you that question because you have, in fact,
15 discussed that issue when you were interviewed by the OTP in 2005. And
16 let me just refresh your recollection on this.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Madam -- Mr. Registrar, if I could have
18 65 ter 7550, please.
19 Q. And you were -- while that is it coming up, Mr. Krajina, let me
20 tell you, you were questioned about the 26th August incident by the
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if we could go to page 439, Mr. Registrar.
23 Q. You -- this is what you said about -- what you could recall about
24 the incident. You say:
25 "He was angry. I can say that he was angry. He was unhappy
1 about certain things, was unhappy about the fact that he could see smoke
2 and fire."
3 Now, does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Krajina? This is a
4 statement you gave in 2005, four years back. At that time, you recall
5 that Mr. Markac, from his vantage point, could see smoke and fire.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. Please interrupt
8 me if this does not fall within my competence and my role here --
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... if you want to
10 explain that the answer given does not necessarily contradict the other,
11 then it would be beyond the scope. Because there's an issue to be
12 unhappy to see something does not necessarily -- yes, if that's not the
13 case, then please proceed, Ms. Tomanovic.
14 Is it a comment which can be made with the witness listening?
15 MS. TOMANOVIC: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then ...
17 MS. TOMANOVIC: Yes, yes. Yes, yes, it is.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it is. Okay.
19 MS. TOMANOVIC: Yes, it is. Definitely.
20 [Interpretation] I observed an interpretation error in the
21 transcript. Since the witness gave his statement in Croatian and it was
22 interpreted into English, this means that the controlling -- the version
23 or the controlling version or the version which bears authority is the
24 Croatian one.
25 Perhaps you should ask the witness to read out what is written
1 here as his statement in Croatian and then this might resolve the
2 exchange that has been going on between him and the Prosecutor.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I was going make the same objection,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it appears a good suggestion to verify in
8 this way what is in the original.
9 Now, first of all, could we enlarge the relevant portion so that
10 the witness can read it. Let me just see where ...
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Overlapping speakers] ... we should go --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Up.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Up, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Further up.
15 Yes, let me first -- one second, please, Ms. Mahindaratne.
16 Yes, could you please read aloud what the -- the first answer you
17 see on the screen, that is, the lines 1, 2, and 3.
18 Could you please read that out aloud.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm reading:
20 "Well, he was angry. I mean, one has to say that. He was angry.
21 He was unhappy about certain things. He was unhappy about the fact that
22 mention was being made again of smoke and fire having been seen."
23 Now, I can't say whether this is really ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: You have finished reading?
25 THE INTERPRETER: The end of the text, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've completed reading the first
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: So the translation, Your Honour, is inaccurate.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, that's obvious, Mr. Kuzmanovic,
6 having listened to -- to what was said. There's a clear difference.
7 Ms. Mahindaratne, which makes perhaps your question moot.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, you are invited to move on.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
11 Q. Just one small question, Mr. Krajina. Here what you say is
12 mention was being made again about smoke and fire. What did you mean, if
13 you could recall, when you mentioned the word "mention was being made
14 again about smoke and fire"? Were you referring to another incident
15 where there was a mention of smoke and fire?
16 A. I wouldn't be able to give you the reason why I said it at the
17 time. But there was no other incident, as far as I remember.
18 Q. Mr. Krajina, I have only a couple -- couple of questions left for
20 Now, after this incident on the 26th, there was, in fact, a
21 discussion between the Chamber and yourself about going back to Zagreb
22 Now, isn't it correct that General Markac sent back the Lucko Unit to
24 participate in further operations, because he was angry. It was not
25 because the activities had come to an end but because he was angry?
1 A. I will try to answer this question in the following way:
2 I don't know in what way General Markac came to know or saw the
3 smoke in the village of Ramljane
4 Q. Mr. Krajina, I don't think you answered my question. My question
5 was: Mr. Markac sent your unit back to Zagreb because he was angry with
6 the unit; isn't that correct? Not because the unit had completed its
7 tasks for which you were brought there, the unit was brought there, but
8 because he was angry. He was withdrawing the unit from further
9 activities and sending them -- sending you back to Zagreb. Isn't that
11 A. No, that isn't correct. And if you allow me, I will try and
12 explain it to you and repeat what I said earlier on. We had completed --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you don't have to repeat.
14 You know, what you said earlier is on record. But let me, in fact, point
15 out to you what you said about this issue -- issue in 2005.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if could you go to page 441 of
17 this same document, 65 ter 7550.
18 Q. There you can read what you said about this issue, Mr. Krajina.
19 You say:
20 "As far as I remember, the order came from his side, to stop that
21 search operation and return to Zagreb
22 And you were asked the question:
23 "And did he tell you why he was sending the Lucko Unit back to
25 Your answer is:
1 "As I said, he wasn't happy about certain things, but he didn't
2 give us a particular reason on the spot."
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if we could go down to -- yes, and go to
4 the next page, Mr. Registrar.
5 Q. And then you say:
6 "... which we could consider as having completed the task and
7 returning to Zagreb
8 Then you were asked the question:
9 "But when you had, shall we say, completed your task on the
10 second day, as you refer to it, were you expecting, when you set off, to
11 go back to Gracac and to do another search the following day?"
12 Your answer is:
13 "It wasn't said, but I personally thought that we would continue,
14 that we would have more search operations."
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I don't see the impeachment issue there, but I
18 do have a question about line 14 of the previous page being incomplete --
19 incompletely translated. And -- or incorrectly translated.
20 Mr. Krajina's answer in the statement, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move -- could we move to the previous page,
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If the witness could just read that line.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Line 14?
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read aloud what you are reported to
2 have said, line 14. "Pa, dobro, mislim ..."
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right.
4 "I think, whether we, either ..." and then indistinct in
5 brackets, "... did it to the end, I don't know."
6 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be quite far away from what has been
7 translated here.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I mean, the word "Zagreb
9 doesn't appear, obviously, among other things.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, this seems that -- I don't know
11 whether you want to further pursue that because there was this incomplete
12 translation. There was another observation in the margin by
13 Mr. Kuzmanovic, which you may not have missed. First, page 64, line 20,
14 he started by a matter he did not further explain but which was, to some
15 extent, clear to me.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. In view of the
17 translation issue, I will move on. I will not pursue this.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Krajina, do you recall you made a statement -- at
21 least -- I'm sorry, let me rephrase.
22 Do you recall being interviewed by the Croatian authorities in
23 2001 on the incident in Grubori?
24 A. I'll give you the answer in this way. I did make a certain
25 statement in the Ministry of Interior, that is to say, the police
1 administration, the Zagreb
2 the exact date. I don't remember the exact date. Perhaps it's the date
3 that you mentioned. Most probably it is.
4 Q. Let me show you the note of interview, Mr. Krajina.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if I could have P1087, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Tomanovic, take care next time that the
8 microphones are switched off if you consult with Mr. Krajina.
9 Please proceed.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
11 Q. And while that document is coming up, Mr. Krajina, I want to tell
12 you I'm just moving to a couple of questions on Grubori, so you might
13 want to pay attention to what's being asked?
14 Could you just go through this note, Mr. Krajina, and tell the
15 Trial Chamber whether this note accurately reflects what you stated to
16 the police in 2001.
17 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if, Mr. President, in the interests of
19 time, if my colleague's instructions are based on the instructions if the
20 witness is not going to answer, we don't have to waste time for him to
21 read this document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do not expect Ms. Tomanovic to give
23 instructions but, rather, advise. But if the witness would, on the basis
24 of the advice or for any other reason, would object to answer this
25 question because the answer would tend to incriminate himself, then we'd
1 like to know right away.
2 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
5 Q. Okay. Then we don't have to waste time on this document.
6 Mr. Krajina, just one -- one more question. In the course of the
7 operation on 25th August, is it correct that none of the groups, none of
8 the four groups, met with resistance from enemy groups?
9 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina objects to answering the question.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I just want to place on record,
14 in view of Mr. Krajina clearly exercising his right against
15 self-incrimination with regard to this subject, I will not explore any
16 other matters with regard to the events in Grubori.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question arises what you could conclude
18 from that. Apparently you are suggesting that has anything to be
19 concluded rather than to establish that he used his right. But let's
20 move on.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
23 Q. Mr. Krajina, I just want to show you a document.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Registrar, if could I have 65 ter 7666.
25 Q. Mr. Krajina, I asked you previously about your promotion. There
1 is no dispute about it. I just want you to take a look at this document
2 and confirm if it is based on this document that you were promoted in
3 1996. I believe you said you were promoted as assistant commander in
5 A. But that wasn't the official decision appointing me to the post
6 of assistant commander. It doesn't look like an official document, like
7 that official document, the official decision appointing me to the post
8 of assistant commander of the unit.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I didn't say official
10 decision. I asked you whether, based on this proposal, you were
11 promoted, whether based on this proposal. This may not be the official
12 decision; it is a proposal. Is that correct?
13 A. The proposal is probably correct. But I wasn't even informed
14 about how the proposal -- what the proposal looked like, nor did I know
15 who proposed me. I was informed in -- or, rather, my colleague and I
16 were informed, and he was also proposed to become assistant commander, we
17 were called to General Markac's office, and we were essentially told
18 then. Now, when the decision came in, what date was on it, I really
19 can't say.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, we'll stipulate that this is the
22 proposal from General Markac that Mr. Krajina be promoted. The question
23 related to whether this document confirmed his promotion, it's clear the
24 document does not. It happened later.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's in -- yes. Let's move on. It's clear
1 that this is a request rather than a decision.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I tender this document into evidence,
4 Mr. President.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No objections, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
8 Exhibit P2728. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: P2728 is admitted into evidence.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, based on -- just I -- I just
11 wanted to conclude. But if I could have just a minute to ask the witness
12 just two more questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You have one minute.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
15 Q. Mr. Krajina, I just want to -- I did tell you that I will not ask
16 you about any questions with regard to Grubori, but let me just ask you
17 two questions.
18 Is it correct that members of the Lucko Unit - and I'm not
19 directing [Realtime transcript read in error "I'm directing"] this
20 allegation against you in -- personally - is it correct that members of
21 the Lucko Unit killed the civilians in Grubori on 25th August?
22 [The witness and Duty Counsel confer]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot answer that question.
24 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correction to the transcript.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for
1 Ms. Tomanovic.
2 MS. TOMANOVIC: I'm sorry.
3 Yes, just a correction to the transcript. On page 69, line 17, I
4 think the Prosecutor said I'm "not" directing this allegation against
5 you. And the transcript says otherwise. So I think it should be
7 The interpretation was okay, but the transcript as recorded in
8 English was not.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think you said that you were not directing
10 this allegation against the witness and that is how it was translated.
11 And I think it's the first mistake in the last couple of weeks that I
12 noticed from our transcriber. I wish we all would make such a low number
13 of mistakes.
14 Please proceed.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
16 Q. My second question to you, Mr. Krajina, is: Isn't it correct
17 that members of the Lucko Unit burnt houses in Grubori on 25th August?
18 A. I cannot answer that question.
19 Q. I have no further questions to you, Mr. Krajina. Thank you for
20 answering my questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Let me just get set up here,
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Mr. Krajina, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic.
2 Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krajina.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Mr. Krajina, I just wanted to follow up on an issue that the
7 Prosecutor asked you about, relating to your proposal for promotion.
8 Procedurally that proposal would go to your commander, which is
9 Mr. Turkalj, correct, at that time?
10 A. No. No, that wasn't the rule. Because the proposal could have
11 been written by the commander too. And it all went to the special police
13 Q. And then who would eventually be the person, then, to approve
14 your promotion?
15 A. Well, as far as I know, in all this, well, I couldn't tell you
16 who approved it. But who gave agreement to those promotions, who agreed
17 to them, was Mr. Markac, to the best of my knowledge.
18 Q. Mr. Krajina, I want to ask you questions about the
19 26th of August, 1995. And, in particular, we're going to be referring at
20 times to your statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on
21 January 11th, 2005
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: So if Mr. Registrar could just have that handy,
23 we may be referring to that.
24 Q. If we could go to page 86 of that document, the -- 86 is not the
25 e-court number, it's the -- page 86 of 108. That's how I have the
1 document in my binder, which is the last portion of the interview. And
2 for assistance, it would be V000-5273.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Microphone not activated]
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes. Yes, that's the correct page. Thank you.
5 Q. Before you look at that, Mr. Krajina, I wanted to ask you, in
6 this interview, you were asked, when you were spoken to by General
7 Markac, who else was in his group. And your recollection at that time
8 was Mr. Janic was there.
9 You were also asked about Mr. Sacic, and you said you didn't
10 recall seeing Mr. Sacic there at that particular time on the 26th. Isn't
11 that correct?
12 A. And I say the same now. I don't remember Mr. Sacic.
13 Q. You have -- you are familiar with Mr. Sacic, are you not?
14 A. Yes, I know him.
15 Q. He is someone that can't be missed, in terms of being able to
16 hear him and see him. He's got a rather loud way of expressing himself,
17 does he not?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Were Mr. Balunovic and Mr. Zinic present on the 26th, as far as
20 you can recall, when General Markac met you with the column?
21 A. I've already said, of all those that you mentioned, the whole
22 unit was there, because we were on our return.
23 Q. Were you aware that the operation on the 26th had anything to do
24 with the freedom train?
25 A. Yes, it was linked.
1 Q. And were you aware that the Lucko Unit was assigned to this
2 portion of the tracks in which the freedom train would travel because it
3 was considered to be one of the more sensitive areas of the entire trip?
4 A. We were given our assignment, so probably the assumption was that
5 that was a sensitive part of the track. And since our assignment was to
6 search and to see in a certain way that the train could pass by unimpeded
7 and reach Split
8 Q. Was that something that was done along the tracks, or was that
9 also done in-depth, if you can remember?
10 A. It was probably -- probably a certain belt was taken along the
11 tracks, and that's what we did.
12 Q. Now, you were asked questions about what happened during that
13 particular search operation and security operation for the freedom train
14 on the 26th.
15 Did you personally observe anybody burning any buildings at all
16 on the 26th?
17 A. I'll try and answer this and tell you how we viewed it and
18 experienced it.
19 Passing through the village, well, may I take a little time to
20 explain? Because I don't want to be in a situation whereby I have to
21 just say yes or no. I would like to paint the picture to you, what the
22 situation was like, and why I'm saying that. At the exit of the village,
23 all we had once we had passed the village -- it was only then that you
24 could see the smoke. And practice has shown that most often, when you
25 want -- or when someone wants to set fire to a house, for instance, then
1 all they have to do is to rush into the house for a split second and set
2 fire to a curtain, for example, with a lighter. And you can move quite
3 far away without ever noticing that somebody was -- that something was
4 burning in the house.
5 So it takes a long time for the actual smoke to appear.
6 Therefore, it's difficult, given that kind of situation, to say, Yes, I
7 saw somebody set fire. As I say, it only takes a split second to go
8 inside, to set something alight, and then you can be away quite a
9 distance, quite a long way away from the place where this was happening,
10 and then you see nothing anymore.
11 Q. Mr. Krajina, I appreciate your answer, but my question was pretty
12 simple. Did you personally observe anybody burning any buildings at all
13 on the 26th?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Can a house or any building be set afire either through weapons
16 fire from a gun or a hand-held rocket-launcher or anything of that
17 nature? In your experience.
18 A. As far as I know, it all depends on the ammunition and the
19 explosive devices, the anti-armour devices, and hitting a certain object.
20 If a certain object is hit, it doesn't necessarily lead to flames and
22 As far as ammunition is concerned, then you have certain
23 ammunitions which, for example, if you fire a number of bullets, yes, the
24 object targeted can be set aflame. But with the ammunition that you --
25 we used, that is quite simply impossible.
1 Q. Mr. Balunovic [sic], during your search you were asked on page 58
2 of 108 --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajina.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry. My error.
5 Q. Mr. Krajina, I apologise for that.
6 You were asked, on page 58 of 108 of your statement to the OTP,
7 you were asked:
8 "During that search, do you recall an incident taking place" --
9 meaning on the 26th, and you answered "No."
10 And then the next question was:
11 "This is where -- this -- this is where there was a lot of
12 gun-fire and a village was set on fire?"
13 And then you asked:
14 "The second day?"
15 And the answer from the person who was questioning you:
16 "Yes," that being the 26th.
17 Do you recall anyone in the Lucko Unit on the 26th talking about
18 a village being set on fire, or was that something that the investigator
19 assumed had taken place when he asked you that question?
20 A. Well, I can't say that anyone was talking on that day about some
21 events like that. It was probably a conclusion made by -- well, I don't
22 know. I really don't know how to answer that.
23 Q. Did you, at any time, Mr. Krajina, observe that a village was set
24 on fire in the Ramljane operation on the 26th of August, 1995, by members
25 of the Lucko Unit?
1 A. Linked to the previous answers, let's try and answer this
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... it is a pretty simple
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think the witness should be allowed to
6 answer, Mr. President. This is a --
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: This is cross-examination, and the Judge is the
8 one who will -- who decides on who can ask --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kuzmanovic, and if the witness, in phrasing
10 his question [sic], says, I'd like to look at the previous questions,
11 then he's allowed to do so.
12 Could you please continue, Mr. Krajina.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say was - and I
14 will be brief - I've already said before that it was visible, that we
15 could see upon exiting the village, and I'm mentioning this for the 26th,
16 that you can see -- well, it was obvious and visible that there was
17 smoke. So obviously the village did not set fire to itself. Some member
18 of the unit certainly set fire to it.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
20 Q. As for how that happened and when that happened, you can't give
21 us any details; is that correct?
22 A. No, I don't know. I don't know any of the details. I really
24 Q. Mr. Krajina, in that part of the search operation on the
25 26th of August, 1995, you did observe, did you not, houses that had been
1 destroyed in the years prior, before the Operation Storm?
2 A. I'm not quite clear on what you're asking me. Could you repeat
3 the question? Are you thinking about the period --
4 Q. Did you see, when you were going through on your search operation
5 on August 26th, 1995
6 Operation Storm by the people who had occupied that area of Croatia
7 A. If I can say, well, you -- you call it buildings. We would call
8 it differently. They certainly weren't buildings. They were hamlets,
9 and the houses were built with some sort of ... some sort of stones. And
10 they were already in a state of disrepair. I can't say that I actually
11 saw that they had been destroyed in any way or -- but that they were in
12 ruin or in disrepair, that's something that I can say.
13 Q. Mr. Krajina, I'd like to take you to page 60 of your transcript
14 with the OTP, which was in January of 2005.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is that page 50 in e-court, or is it --
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I have them numbered by
17 pages of transcript. It's -- it's the same section of transcript that we
18 just had in front of us. Page 60 of 108.
19 Yes, that's the page on the screen. Thank you. If we could
20 scroll down, please. That's good. Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Krajina, I'd like to read you the section starting at line 27
22 and go to the next page. So I will start with line 27, and the question
23 is -- and I will ask a question after I read this section:
24 "And do you remember any conversation over the radio in which, I
25 think, Mr. Celic asked what was going on, why there had been smoke coming
1 from a village?"
2 And your answer is:
3 "I don't remember that."
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we go to the next page. That's not the next
5 page. There we go.
6 Q. And you say:
7 "I don't remember that."
8 And then the question is:
9 "You don't remember that?
10 And you say:
11 "I don't remember that."
12 But it's translated as:
14 Line 16:
15 "And [sic] as a result of this, and the fact that the freedom
16 train was due to run very shortly, you know, within a few days of this
17 search, Mr. Markac was in the area, were you aware of that?"
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, where you said it was translated as
19 "Okay," that's not the case. The answer is not translated.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the person who interviewed Mr. Krajina
22 said "Okay." Now, the answer was rather short. And --
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I think we can all stipulate --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely -- most likely the gist of answer was
25 clear already to the [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, Your Honour,
2 you're correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Now, I'll continue on -- thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. On line 16, the question is:
6 "As a result of this, and the fact that the freedom train was due
7 to run very shortly, you know, within a few days of this search,
8 Mr. Markac was in the area, were you aware of that?"
9 And the answer is:
10 "That was on the second day." As far as I remember.
11 Now, Mr. Krajina, I'm just going to submit to you that this
12 passage that I read relates -- and the conversation over the radio with
13 Mr. Celic relates to August 25th and not August 26th and that you are
14 mixing the two up.
15 Is that possible?
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, what is the basis for this
17 suggestion because --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Kuzmanovic is asking a question.
19 Now, I must admit that it's not entirely clear to me what
20 Mr. Kuzmanovic asks may have been mixed up. At the same time, I'm
21 looking at the clock. And I missed already --
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Oh, yeah. So did I.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- the time at which we should stop.
24 Therefore, perhaps you think about rephrasing your question --
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that it at least meets my concern and possibly,
2 as well, Ms. Mahindaratne's concern.
3 We'll have a break for one hour. That means that we will resume
4 at five minutes to 3.00.
5 Mr. Kuzmanovic, is the estimate of the time you will need still
6 the same?
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will be done well within that -- well within
8 the next 20 minutes after that, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Next 20 minutes after that. And then the parties
10 are invited to remain stand by - and not for you, Ms. Tomanovic - to deal
11 with some housekeeping matters after that.
12 We'll resume at five minutes to 3.00.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.52 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 2.59 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.
17 [The witness takes the stand]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to continue your
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Krajina, the previous question that I asked you before the
22 break, I'm going withdraw. I'll ask you a different question.
23 On -- the Presiding Judge had asked on page 26 of today's
24 transcript, line 15, referring to the operation on the 26th of August:
25 "Did you see any smoke or any fire on that day?"
1 And your answer was:
2 "Yes. We -- we could see smoke as we were leaving the village,
3 as we were at a certain distance from the village, we could see smoke."
4 Now, that -- how far -- how far was the distance that you were at
5 from the village where you saw the smoke?
6 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly.
7 Q. I want to take you to your statement related to this --
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: On page 58, please.
9 Q. -- that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It's 432 in e-court.
11 Q. Before I get there, Mr. Krajina, you know the difference between
12 a village and a particular building or a house or barn, do you not? And
13 there is a difference. A village is a collection of buildings and a
14 house or a barn -- or a building is one individual unit; correct?
15 A. Yes, I'm aware of the difference.
16 Q. You were asked by the investigator for the Prosecution's Office
17 on line 5:
18 "During that search" -- again, referring to the 26th of August,
19 "do you recall an incident taking place?"
20 And you answered:
22 On line 13, the investigator asked you:
23 "This is where there was lot of gun-fire and a village was set on
25 And then you asked:
1 "The second day?"
2 And then you continued on with your answer.
3 Mr. Krajina, as you sit here today, would you agree with me that
4 there was not an entire village set on fire on August 26th, 1995, that
5 this was something that was stated to you by the Office of the
6 Prosecutor's investigator and not by you?
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President. I object, Mr. President. I
8 don't think the -- the counsel Mr. Kuzmanovic is referring to a statement
9 made by this witness at a previous stage in the course of the interview,
10 and I don't know whether Mr. Kuzmanovic is trying to impeach the witness
11 with this statement or refresh his recollection, but this statement which
12 is before us is not in evidence.
13 So I'm not clear as to what is going on. The suggestion that the
14 OTP has made a statement to the effect that a village has been set on
15 fire is not in evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time, I think it was read to the
17 witness, at least it was now read to the witness, and for very practical
18 reasons I think that the Chamber gave guidance to the parties that if
19 there was anything which would be inconsistent, but that would, of
20 course, also cover if something is unclear, that by reading the relevant
21 portion of the statement we would avoid that we'd have a discussion as to
22 whether the whole of the statement would be in evidence or not.
23 So, therefore, the objection is denied.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Krajina, do you -- can you answer that question?
2 A. Well, I can't assert that a whole village was burnt.
3 Q. The only thing you can confirm is that you saw smoke?
4 A. Yes. From a certain distance.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could please go to page 63 of the same OTP
6 witness statement.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And if we could go to line 15 of that, please.
9 Line 18, I mean, sorry.
10 Q. This was -- I'm referring you now to the issue that the
11 Presiding Judge discussed with you on the -- on Mr. Drljo. And you told
12 the Presiding Judge on today's transcript - I don't have the exact page
13 reference, but I have the transcript in front of me. I think it's page
14 30 ... 31 and 32. Where the Judge asked you:
15 "You said based on what you heard. You mean personally observed,
16 you heard when that argument was going on?"
17 And you answered:
18 "Yes. While I was there, I was listening to that part of their
20 And the question was:
21 "Yes. What did Mr. Drljo say?"
22 And you said:
23 "Well, I don't know how precise I can be in trying to quote their
24 words. I think it was roughly the following: What was it that I did?
25 "Well, I can't really repeat the words because I don't remember
1 them. But I think the gist of what ... he said is something I conveyed."
2 And then the Judge asked you:
3 "What was it that Mr. Drljo said in response to Mr. Markac?"
4 And you answered:
5 "Well, I guess the gist was I did it so what can you do about it?
6 What can you do to me?"
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's just, for reference, to page 33 of the
9 Q. Now, you were very specific, when answering Judge Orie's
10 questions, about the confrontation between Mr. Drljo and General Markac
11 on the way back from the operation in Ramljane on August 26th. However,
12 when you talked to the Prosecutor's Office five years ago in 2005, you
13 were asked:
14 "Do you remember" -- on line 18 "him" -- meaning Mr. Markac
15 "having sort of a very close face-to-face with Mr. Drljo, you know,
16 heated words between them?"
17 And the answer was -- actually, [B/C/S spoken].
18 THE INTERPRETER: I don't remember.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
20 Q. And then you said:
21 "As far as I remember, he did not address anybody in particular."
22 And then on the next page, on line 8:
23 "As far as I remember, he waited for us at a certain point, the
24 convoy stopped, and we all -- I think it was all of us, we came out of
25 our vehicles and that's when he addressed us in a certain way."
1 Now, Mr. Krajina, back in 2005 you mentioned nothing about the
2 issue of a direct confrontation that Mr. Markac had with Mr. Drljo;
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There is further reference on that
7 conversation at page 436 onwards where the witness has discussed
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please look at it and see whether the
10 factual basis for your question still stands, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Sure. If you could give me the page of 108,
12 that would be appreciated.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Microphone not activated] ... in the fourth
14 section, page 62. And on e-court it's 436.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: You mean the section where it says:
16 "Do you remember, when you were leaving the convoy, the
17 Lucko Unit, the convoy being stopped and Mr. Markac approaching members
18 of the Lucko Unit?"
19 And he says, on the next page:
20 "He was at a certain position, and he waited for us as we were
21 coming back."
22 And the next line is:
23 "And do you remember him speaking to members of the Lucko Unit?"
24 And the answer is:
25 "Yes, I think that's what happened, as far as I remember."
1 And then, further on, he says he doesn't remember anything about
2 Drljo. So I don't see where this adds to the clarity. There's nothing
3 in this statement that says that he had a face-to-face confrontation with
4 Mr. Drljo.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Reference to Mr. Drljo, but if you see, from
6 line 30 onwards of page -- of the same page.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, you mean where he says:
8 "As far as I remember, he did not address anybody in particular."
9 That part?
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Page 64, line 21.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: "I can say in a certain way and I remember the
12 words, but I can't" --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have that on our screen.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That would be on e-court page 436 onwards,
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I still don't see anything in here about any
17 confrontation between Mr. Drljo and Mr. Markac.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No. I just wanted to point out there was more
19 evidence about the conversation, not only the portion that you read,
20 but I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the issue is whether it was a specific
22 conversation between two persons or whether it was -- whether it was
23 addressing the unit --
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: As a whole.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think when I asked questions about it, I
1 asked whether any of the members responded. And then I think it was when
2 Mr. Drljo came up.
3 Now, whether you consider that a one-to-one conversation in the
4 presence of others or addressing a group, one of the members of the group
5 responding, that's, of course, is -- well, that's to some extent a
6 matter of perception and definition as well.
7 But please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Krajina, back in 2005, you made no mention at all of any
10 direct exchange between Mr. Markac and Mr. Drljo. That's correct, is it
12 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to say exactly what I said back in 2005.
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... showing you your statement
14 here that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Krajina, and no
15 where in this statement did you specifically address a conversation that
16 Mr. Markac had with Mr. Drljo and the fact that Mr. --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, in order for the witness to
18 truthfully answer that question, of course, he would have to read the
19 whole of the statement. The parties and the Chamber is able to see
20 whether it was mentioned or not. Just put it to him and whether he
21 verifies or not. Apparently you want to say you didn't -- you described
22 the situation not as a direct one-to-one conversation between Mr. Markac
23 addressing Mr. Drljo and Mr. Drljo answering to that.
24 A. Correct, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Okay. Now, Mr. Krajina, Mr. Kuzmanovic has not found anything in
2 that statement where you describe the situation as Mr. Markac addressing
3 Mr. Drljo, Mr. Drljo answering to Mr. Markac, whereas it seems that from
4 what was just read is that Mr. Markac addressed the group or group
5 leaders or at least a number of people where Mr. Drljo apparently
6 responded to what Mr. Markac had said, even if not directly to him.
7 That's what Mr. Kuzmanovic, I take it, will ask you a question
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
10 Q. You did not address that issue between -- as -- you did not
11 describe that issue as a direct confrontation between Mr. Markac and
12 Mr. Drljo, correct, back in 2005?
13 A. Well, I can't really assert from the position that I had at the
14 time where I was at the time, whether he directly addressed Drljo or not.
15 I don't know if I've made myself clear. But certain discussions did take
16 place between the two of them. That I can say.
17 Perhaps the address was intended for the unit as a whole. I
18 can't tell you that.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... telling us now here,
20 Mr. Krajina, as you sit here today you don't know whether General Markac
21 was specifically addressing Mr. Drljo and not the whole unit?
22 A. To the best of my recollection, there was ongoing discussion at
23 the time I joined the group.
24 Q. What that discussion was, who was addressing whom, you can't tell
25 us; is that correct?
1 A. Well, let me answer this way: That's correct. I cannot state
2 now that it was Mr. Drljo who was addressed. Precisely.
3 Q. Mr. Krajina, have you had a chance to review all of the documents
4 and statements that were given to the Croatian authorities involving the
5 matter that is going on in Croatia
6 A. I haven't had a -- that chance. I did not read the documents. I
7 did not talk to anyone. I have, for the past four months, been in the
8 remand facility, and the only documents that I looked at were the ones
9 that my lawyer was able to send me.
10 So I have been unable and I am still unable to gain an insight
11 into these documents, to read them.
12 Q. Mr. Krajina, maybe my question wasn't clear. I'm not referring
13 to any documents here at the ICTY or any pieces of evidence here or
14 anything like that. What I'm referring to is statements that were made
15 before investigative judges, in Croatia
16 you are an accused.
17 Did you have a chance to review any of those documents from other
18 witnesses or accused before coming here?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 Q. Mr. Krajina, His Honour showed -- no, it wasn't His Honour. I
21 believe it was Ms. Mahindaratne showed P767 to you. I'd like -- which
22 was a report written by Mr. Celic.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: What I'd like to ask the Registrar, please, to
24 put up P768.
25 Q. Mr. Krajina, were you aware that Mr. Drljo, Mr. Zinic, and
1 Mr. Balunovic all wrote reports relating to August 26th, 1995, to the
3 A. No, I was not aware of that.
4 Q. Were you asked by Mr. Celic or Mr. Janic to write a report about
5 what occurred on August 26th?
6 A. No, I wasn't.
7 Q. Were you near a group which was being led by either Mr. Drljo,
8 Mr. Zinic, or Mr. Balunovic on August 26th?
9 A. Close to the group led by Mr. Zinic.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could please pull up P769.
11 Q. This is a report dated August 26th, 1995, signed --
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could scroll down a little bit to see what
13 appears to be at least -- perhaps not a signature, but Mr. Zinic's name
14 is written there.
15 Q. And there's been evidence in the case that stated Mr. Zinic
16 recognised that and the handwriting as being his.
17 Were you within close enough distance to Mr. Zinic to observe
18 whether or not there was fire from his unit, meaning weapons fire, from
19 the group that he was leading?
20 A. I was close enough to Mr. Zinic because we were advancing along a
21 road. But I can't tell you what it was that his members of the group
23 Q. So if, in his report, Mr. Zinic stated, among other things, that
24 he had noticed some buildings had been set on fire and some were still
25 smouldering and that when he arrived -- "we arrived in the hamlet of
1 Vucenovici, we came under fire from some houses, and we returned fire."
2 Would you be able to tell me whether you were in a position to
3 say anything contrary to what Mr. Zinic has reported in P769?
4 A. In answer to your question, I can only tell you that no buildings
5 were on fire and we didn't come under any fire.
6 Q. Maybe my question was too long and convoluted.
7 My question to you, Mr. Krajina, is that: Are you in a position
8 to say anything about Mr. Zinic's report that is counter to what he wrote
9 in his report about what he experienced?
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I believe the question was
11 asked and answered.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The question was asked but not answered.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
14 Not to say that an answer was given, but it was not a direct
15 answer to the question.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
17 Q. Mr. Krajina, can you please answer that question for us.
18 If you want me, I can repeat it.
19 A. Can you please repeat it.
20 Q. Sure. Are you in a position, Mr. Krajina, to say anything about
21 Mr. Zinic's report of the 26th of August that is counter to what he wrote
22 in his report about what he experienced or his unit experienced?
23 A. I can tell you only one thing and that that's -- well, first of
24 all, I have not read his report, even now, and I'm not familiar with it,
25 and I can only tell you that this is not how things happened.
1 Q. I guess my question to you, Mr. Zinic [sic], is let's assume for
2 a moment that what Mr. Zinic reported in his report is accurate. What I
3 want you to answer for us, please, is were you in a position to say
4 something or to observe something contrary to what Mr. Zinic's unit
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object to that question, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kuzmanovic. If the witness says, This is
8 not how it happened. Then to say, Could you have observed it if it would
9 be true, that's more or less ignoring the previous answer of the witness.
10 And if you would carefully look at the transcript of today, you find a
11 few places where already one might find an answer to your question. I'm
12 not further elaborating on that.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
14 Q. Mr. Krajina, did you ever have an opportunity to speak with
15 anyone from the Lucko Unit about what occurred on August 26th, 1995?
16 A. Let me answer this way: I can't say that I did not have occasion
17 to, since we were in the same unit, that we didn't have occasion to
18 speak, but we did not talk about it. And my explanation for it is that
19 as time progressed in the subsequent period, I did not spend that much
20 time in the unit and with members of the unit since I was assigned to
21 assignments of quite a different nature, and my presence in the unit was
22 only sporadic.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I note that I may have misspoke on
24 line 18 of page 90 and called the witness, again, Mr. Zinic or a name
25 that he isn't. But it's noted as "Zinic" there; it should be "Krajina."
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
3 Q. Mr. Krajina, can you please tell us whether at any time you,
4 other than observing General Markac on the road back after the operation
5 on the 26th, had any conversation of any kind with General Markac
6 relating to this issue?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
12 MR. KAY: No questions, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No questions from the Cermak Defence.
14 MR. KEHOE: No questions, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Same for the Gotovina Defence.
16 Could I ask you to take off your earphones for a second.
17 I'm addressing the parties for a minute. I invited the witness
18 who said he didn't know whether they moved east to west or west to east
19 whether a map would assist him. I think he said south-east to north-west
20 in the beginning then when looking at the map he said we went in easterly
22 Now, all the other evidence suggests the opposite direction that
23 is from east to west. When I say the other evidence, I'm mainly
24 referring to the reports of the three group leaders and the report by
25 Mr. Celic. And it's described there in some detail about the starting
1 Kaldrma and one group going Dobrici Vujekovici and then, I think, ending
2 up in Perica tor. And the other group, let's say the Zinic/Krajina
3 group, described as operating on the axis Cosici and then Vucenovici then
4 Topica - I have to check that - but that appears on the map as somewhere
5 on the slopes of Mount Promina
6 different direction.
7 Now, I could take the witness back to that, but if all parties
8 would agree that the movement was in the opposite direction compared to
9 what the witness said, then I don't have to pay further attention to it,
10 although I may have one or two questions which I relate to that issue.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, we are in agreement with that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not hear from the other Defence teams.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We're in agreement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Could you please put your earphones on again.
16 Further Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us, Mr. Krajina, at what time
18 approximately was the operation concluded on the 26th of August?
19 A. In the afternoon hours. I couldn't give you the exact hour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Was it -- do you remember whether it was late
21 afternoon or early afternoon?
22 A. Let's say in the earlier part of the afternoon.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean around 3.00 or 2.00 or 4.00?
24 A. I would say roughly around 2.00 or 3.00.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you several times referred to "the
1 village." You also talked about the village of Ramljane
2 that the groups got together, reunited again in the village. Was that
3 the four groups or the -- at least all the men of the four group leaders?
4 A. I was saying that I had met Mr. Zinic. I didn't mention the
5 other groups.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, was that in the beginning or at -- almost
7 at the end of the operation? The earlier stages or the late stages?
8 A. That encounter could have happened before we entered the village
9 or in the village itself.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you are talking about "the village," are you
11 talking about the village which you visited in the earlier stages or --
12 where you passed through in the earlier stages of the operation or in the
13 late stages? Was it close to the end or close to the beginning of the
15 A. Closer to the very beginning of the operation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you described the operation as going from west
17 to east, after had you consulted the map. I just inquired with the --
18 no, let's me say the following:
19 That would put Ramljane village almost at the end of the
20 operation. I asked the parties in this case, on the basis of other
21 evidence we received, whether they had concluded on the basis of the
22 other evidence that it was likely that the units would have moved from
23 east to west.
24 Do you consider it a possibility that you made a mistake even
25 after having consulted the map, that you moved from west to east;
1 whereas, the other evidence suggests that it was from east to west?
2 A. Well, actually, I may have made a mistake. Looking at the map, I
3 routinely said west/east.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you say it might be -- might have been the
5 other way. I don't know why you routinely say west/east. But you
6 consider that this may be a mistake, and it could have been east/west; or
7 are you even certain that, on the basis of the map, that it would have
8 been east/west.
9 A. No, I cannot be certain.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're unable to say with some certainty
11 whether it was in the direction, as you testified this morning, or
12 whether it was in the opposite direction?
13 A. I am convinced now that we were moving from the east in a
14 westerly direction.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you told us that when you left the
16 village you saw smoke. Now, was that in the very early stages of the
17 operation; or was it the middle of the operation; was it at the end of
18 the operation?
19 Could you tell us when that was?
20 A. I cannot say in which stage of the operation that was. But I did
21 point out that it was once we had left the village or were about to leave
23 I cannot say with certainty when we got to the village. In which
24 stage of the operation, that is.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, other evidence suggests that you did not pass
1 through just one village but through more villages or hamlets or at least
2 groups of houses.
3 Do you have any comment on that? Do you consider this a
4 possibility? Because you're always talking about "the village."
5 A. I remember just that village. And later on, I did mention that
6 we came across some houses. And I mentioned again reaching some building
7 and some people, but I can't remember how many villages we passed through
8 or how many houses we saw. And that's really -- and that really isn't
9 anything I can say with certainty.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I earlier asked you about whether you meant,
11 with "the village," "Ramljane." Now, when you told us about the smoke
12 you saw after you had left the village, are you sure that it was a
13 village which was called Ramljane?
14 A. Well, only that village, with that name, remains in my memory. I
15 don't remember other villages. I wouldn't remember them either by name
16 or for any other reason.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Other evidence suggests that events have --
18 may -- taken place either in a village called Vujakovici, which is in the
19 Ramljane area, and Vucenovici, which is also -- at least if I look at
20 P190, is still in an area which is called Ramljane. Is that something
21 you consider to be possible, that it is a hamlet or a small village in an
22 area called Ramljane, where the village or hamlet itself had one of the
23 names I just mentioned to you, that is, Vujakovici or Vucenovici?
24 A. It's difficult for me to tell now. I already said that I don't
25 remember the names of those villages.
1 It's difficult for me to tell whether it happened there, after
3 But I repeat that only Ramljane is still in my memory, is
4 something I remember. And I can only speak about events that I remember.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions for you.
8 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further
10 Ms. Mahindaratne.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: None of the other parties?
13 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Krajina, this concludes your testimony in
16 this Court. I thank you for coming to The Hague. I thank you for having
17 answered many of the questions that were put to you by the Bench and by
18 the parties, and I hope that you have a safe return to your country.
19 Ms. Tomanovic, I'd like to thank you for being available on such
20 a short notice to assist the witness. We'll continue with the case, but
21 you -- your presence is not needed. Of course, you can follow the
22 proceedings if you wish to do so, but it's -- may be -- housekeeping may
23 be rather boring for an outsider.
24 Then, Mr. Krajina, I'll ask you to be escorted out of the
1 MS. TOMANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just wish to say that it
2 was my pleasure to assist the Trial Chamber. I'm glad that you have
3 entrusted me this role. Certainly there is no need for me to stay in the
4 courtroom, so I ask for permission to leave the courtroom.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Permission is granted.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to briefly deal with a few procedural
8 matters. It may not take very long.
9 The first is the following: On the -- and this is more or less
10 to inform the public about an event.
11 On the 21st of April, 2010, the Chamber granted a motion of the
12 Prosecution to re-open its case. The decision was filed confidentially.
13 A public version will be made available in due course. The Chamber also
14 suspended the dead-line for filing final briefs, which was originally
15 mentioned at transcript page 28047.
16 The second item is that -- that the Chamber now issues a decision
17 with regard to the relief requested in - I quote:
18 "Gotovina Defence submission in response to Trial Chamber
19 invitation of 29th of March, 2010."
20 On the 26th of March, the Chamber made a statement regarding the
21 content of the final briefs of the parties. This statement can be found
22 at transcript page 28.048.
23 On the 29th of March, 2010, following several informal
24 communications from the Gotovina Defence and the Prosecution, the Chamber
25 granted the Gotovina Defence leave to file a submission on this matter,
1 and informed the parties accordingly through an informal communication.
2 On the 7th of April, the Gotovina Defence filed its submission,
3 requesting that the Chamber clarify its statement by instructing the
4 Prosecution not to include certain new specified allegations in its final
6 On the 8th of April, 2010, the Markac Defence joined that
8 And on the 19th of April, the Prosecution filed a response,
9 requesting that the Chamber deny the relief requested by the Defence.
10 The Gotovina Defence submitted that the Chamber's invitation, and
11 I quote:
12 "Calls upon the Prosecution to particularise allegations against
13 General Gotovina that have never been specified previously."
14 The Chamber's statement merely identified certain categories of
15 evidence that it would find helpful if the parties were to refer to in
16 their final briefs. It was addressed to the Prosecution in particular
17 because the Prosecution bears the burden of proof. The Chamber did not
18 invite the Prosecution to further specify its allegations, and the
19 specificity of the pleadings has already been litigated and decided upon.
20 Therefore, the Chamber denies the Defence request.
21 And this concludes the Chamber's decision on the Defence request
22 regarding the Chamber's statement of the 26th of March, 2010.
23 The Chamber would now like to issue its decision on the
24 Gotovina Defence's motion requesting the Chamber to decide on certain
25 motions no later than 30th of April, 2010.
1 The Gotovina Defence filed this motion on the 1st of April, 2010
2 The two motions that the Gotovina Defence requests the Chamber to decide
3 on by the said date are the Prosecution's Rule 54 bis motion, with regard
4 to Croatia
5 the European Union Monitoring Mission.
6 The Prosecution responded on the 15th of April, 2010, stating
7 that the Gotovina Defence has failed to show that the Chamber has
8 unreasonably delayed its issuance of decisions on these two motions.
9 On the 16th of April, 2010, Croatia filed a letter, stressing the
10 urgency of the Prosecution's Rule 54 bis motion.
11 On the 19th of April, the Gotovina Defence requested leave to
12 reply. On the same day, the Chamber denied the request and communicated
13 its decision to the parties through an informal communication.
14 The two Rule 54 bis motions are, indeed, pending before the
15 Chamber. Their respective procedural histories are long and complex and
16 will not be set out here, since they have already been partly described
17 in previous decisions and will be further set out in the final decisions
18 with regard to the two motions.
19 The Gotovina Defence bases its request on the
20 American Bar Association's Model Code of Judicial Conduct. It fails,
21 however, to explain how this instrument is applicable with regard to the
22 two Rule 54 bis motions. It does not point to any other legal basis for
23 the remedy it is seeking. However, even assuming that the standard for
24 the Chamber is the one set out by the Model Code and that the Chamber
25 therefore is under an obligation to issue decisions - and I quote -
1 "promptly," the Gotovina Defence has not explained how the Chamber has
2 failed to do so with regard to the two Rule 54 bis motions. Neither has
3 it argued why decisions rendered no later than 30th of April, 2010, would
4 meet the argued standard of promptness.
5 The Gotovina Defence's argument in this respect simply amounts to
6 stating that the motions have been pending for a long time. However,
7 this, in itself, does not reveal anything about how the Chamber is
8 handling the motions. The length of time a motion is pending before a
9 chamber obviously depends on numerous factors, including its complexity
10 and the actions of the parties. The litigation with regard to both
11 motions has been highly complex, and the interventions by the parties and
13 With regard to the Prosecution's Rule 54 bis motion, the Chamber
14 has also held numerous court sessions and meetings with the parties and
16 already taken a number of necessary intermediate decisions of various
18 In light of the foregoing reasons, the motion is denied. And
19 this concludes the Chamber's decision.
20 I move to the next item.
21 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: With regard to the last decision, I don't know if you
24 want to wait till the end, but I would like to be heard on the decision
25 that the Chamber just rendered.
1 JUDGE ORIE: To be heard on it --
2 MR. KEHOE: I would just like to ask the Chamber a question with
3 regard to that motion. I don't know if you want me to do it at the end
4 or if you would like me to do it now.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's -- are you seeking clarification or are
6 you --
7 MR. KEHOE: I would just like to ask a simple question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It depends on what the question is. If it is
9 re-opening the debate on the motion --
10 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... it's not re-opening the
11 debate at all.
12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... okay then we'll listen to
13 your question.
14 MR. KEHOE: I understand Your Honour has denied the motion. I'm
15 not re-litigating that. The question for the Chamber -- I -- we -- the
16 Gotovina Defence has for the Chamber is when we can expect a decision on
17 that Rule 54 bis motion.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We are working hard on it. There is a fair chance
19 that it will not there by the 30th of April. And we tried to do it as
20 soon afterwards. But we will spend some time first on the decision on
21 this motion.
22 MR. KEHOE: Well, I understand, Mr. President. I mean -- and if
23 I can just follow up the question: Are we talking 30, 60, 90 days? I
24 mean, if we're talking about a period of time that's relatively complex,
25 I note that the Chamber quite expeditiously --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber --
2 MR. KEHOE: Excuse -- may I finish, Mr. President, and put my
3 statement on the record.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. KEHOE: -- expeditiously gave a decision concerning the
6 intervention by Croatia
7 I think, a 36-page opinion, and the request we have at this point is can
8 we look forward, in the very near future, to a decision on this score?
9 And that was simply what I was talking about.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, first of all, Mr. Kehoe, the Chamber
11 is -- I don't know what -- you know about preparing decisions. That is
12 that you have to --
13 MR. KEHOE: I worked in Chambers for quite sometime,
14 Mr. President, years.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that means that we are, first of all,
16 analysing exactly what the parties have submitted. And that is, in this
17 case, is -- both -- in relation to both motions, quite a bit. Then you
18 have to agree on a draft and what direction to draft the decision. Then
19 have you to agree on those drafts. And you have to do that. Whereas,
20 other unexpected new things often arrive. One of the things that comes
21 to my mind is, I think, a -- well, a motion which was filed, I think
22 today or yesterday also by the Gotovina Defence, which, of course, we
23 have to look at as -- to see how urgent that motion is and what is
24 exactly sought as a relief in that motion.
25 What we do is to deliver decisions as quickly as we can under the
1 circumstances. And if you say, Would it be 30, 60, 90, days? That's not
2 what I expect to happen. But I can't give you any guarantees apart from
3 that we're doing our utmost best to deliver those decisions as quickly as
5 MR. KEHOE: And I'm sure that Your Honour is aware of, as
6 Your Honour noted, how long this has been pending and the urgency with
7 which the parties, not just the parties in this courtroom, have put
8 before the Court the urgency with which that decision needs to be
10 Whatever the decision happens to be, granting the Rule 54 bis
11 motion, denying the Rule 54 bis motion, triggering rights to an immediate
12 appeal, whatever it happens to be, it's almost in a situation where
13 whatever the decision is, the decision is, so the parties can move on
14 from there.
15 But with this -- where we are right now a betwixt and between,
16 and we ask the Court's indulgence to direct the Chamber's attention to
17 that so we can get a decision promptly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that the Gotovina Defence developed some,
19 perhaps, very understandable impatience is clear to the Chamber at this
20 moment. That's what I can say about it. It is, to some extent, although
21 not directly in relation to the 30th of April, that you're re-opening the
22 debate on whether the 15th of May or the 30th of May would be -- I think
23 I've said what I wanted to say about it, and you have to do it with that.
24 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I then move on to my next item, and that's a
1 clarification, Mr. Hedaraly, and I'm addressing you specifically. A
2 clarification in relation to the Prosecution's motion to strike the
3 Markac stipulation to sections of the Prosecution's pre-trial brief.
4 We dealt with that in the last housekeeping session, and I then
5 said that a certain question arises, whether it's necessary at all, and I
6 depicted an alternative way of approaching the matter. And then you
7 said, "That's fine with us, Mr. President." You simply wanted to point
8 at -- now what you then said is understood by the Chamber as a withdrawal
9 of that motion. If we have misunderstood that, please tell us.
10 MR. HEDARALY: That is correct, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Then I move on to my next item.
13 We also discussed, at the last housekeeping session, P979. We
14 dealt with a translation issue regarding P979. There was an objection to
15 the original translation. It was about the words "of prisoners." We had
16 a re-translation. All parties agreed on that.
17 I then inquired as to whether the Markac and the Cermak Defence
18 had any objection to the revised translation which then should replace
19 the translation which was attached to P979. I then instructed the
20 Registrar to replace the old translation by the new one. But I think,
21 especially because of the translation issue, P979 was not yet admitted
22 into evidence. That was the only reason why no decision on admission had
23 been taken yet. When I instructed the Registrar to replace the old
24 translation by the new one, I failed to also formally -- formally admit
25 into evidence P979.
1 The next, and, as far as I'm concerned, the last item on a my
2 list, is P2455.
3 There is a translation issue there as well. The difference with
4 the exhibit we previously discussed is that this one, despite the
5 translation issue, that P2455 was already admitted into evidence.
6 Now, on the 21st of April, the Prosecution has, as the Chamber
7 understands, e-mailed the other parties to see if they consented to
8 the -- to a revision to the translation of P2455.
9 The Chamber would like to hear from the parties whether there's
10 any dispute remaining or whether the revised translation is accepted by
11 the Defence.
12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, we are in the process of reviewing
13 the document and I believe we indicated to the Prosecution that we did
14 not believe it was appropriate at the time to e-mail Chambers as of yet
15 before we've come to agreement, and I believe the Prosecution indicated
16 that it was inadvertently sent to Chambers yesterday.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. MISETIC: So we will get back to you on that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear further from you. The only thing
20 the Chamber is interested in is whether the matter has been resolved, yes
21 or no, and is not interested in any dispute between the parties and what
22 the subject matter of that dispute is.
23 I have no further items on my agenda at this moment, but -- yes,
24 I made the same mistake as I did yesterday. I said I failed to formally
25 admit into evidence -- I now do admit into evidence P979.
1 Any other matter to be raised at this moment?
2 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, just -- I think, on behalf of the
3 Gotovina Defence, we would like, since we -- from I what understand,
4 we'll properly adjourn sine die --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. MISETIC: -- some discussion about Scheduling Orders and how
7 we're going to proceed in the future. I think the Chamber is aware of
8 the Gotovina Defence's particular concerns, and we understand the
9 re-opening is going to take place. If we can have, perhaps, a discussion
10 again on how we wish to proceed because obviously we'd like to move
11 things forward.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if we were not aware, we certainly are
13 now, Mr. -- over the last two days, not to say that we were already aware
14 of the urgency to proceed.
15 Perhaps I could address Mr. Hedaraly whether he could give us --
16 yes, Mr. --
17 MR. KAY: I think, as this directly impacts upon our rights in
18 the trial, we will be seeking a certificate for interlocutory appeal in
19 relation to that decision.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The decision of re-opening?
21 MR. KAY: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KAY: And, therefore, in our submission, it would not be wise
24 to start setting out a scheduling timetable with matters pertinent to
25 that decision as well as issues that flow from it, in relation to any
1 future Defence preparations that may need to be taking place.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kay, the issue is whether, if the Chamber
3 would grant a certificate for an interlocutory appeal, what, if such an
4 appeal would be filed, what the consequences should be, whether the
5 proceedings would have to wait until that appeal is decided upon or
6 whether we could proceed meanwhile.
7 Now, we have -- it's not the only matter of interlocutory appeals
8 which will raise that question. I do agree with you that that is a
9 matter which needs careful attention. Of course, we do not know yet what
10 the content of your motion to seek a certificate will contain.
11 Meanwhile, I would ask Mr. Hedaraly what he considers feasible,
12 at all, if we would continue at this moment, what he would consider is
13 possible. Not to say that that immediately then gets the green light of
14 the Trial Chamber but that at least when considering these matters, that
15 we have a full overview, legal matters, whether or not any interlocutory
16 appeal should, at this moment, lead to further adjournments and delays.
17 I'm not blaming anyone, but just in factual terms. And if not, in what
18 time-frame any evidence to be presented by the Prosecution could be
19 heard. Not to say that it will be heard in that time-frame.
20 MR. KAY: In a way, the cart is going before the horse again,
21 because we need time to prepare. And our investigations are having to
22 take place and permissions are being sought to interview witnesses.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. KAY: It is not restricted just to these three witnesses.
25 This is a far wider issue. And we have to ensure that we have everything
1 at our disposal that is capable of dealing with such an issue. And that
2 has to be prepared. It is a -- a new issue for us to face and deal with.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can assure you, Mr. Kay, that everything you
4 said until now has been the subject of discussions within the Chamber. I
5 mean, we're not blind or so unexperienced that we are aware that certain
6 decisions that were taken -- well, of course, will have a direct
7 consequence that, that the course which we allowed the Prosecution to
8 take but also that may trigger quite a lot of other matters as well,
9 preparing for that, calling witnesses by the Defence. I mean, we have
10 overlooked [sic] all of that.
11 What I'm, at this moment, primarily seeking to hear from
12 Mr. Hedaraly is what the minimum time would be for him to prepare and
13 present the evidence he would have on his mind. Whether we would then
14 hear that evidence within that time-frame, that's a totally different
16 MR. KAY: Yeah, as long as our position is factored into any
17 timetable, we have no objection. But we are just very anxious to make
18 sure that this doesn't get rushed and we are left --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I can ensure you that if Mr. Hedaraly said, We need
20 five weeks, that not immediately a scheduling orders would follow that in
21 five weeks we hear that evidence. We'll certainly, of course, ask the
22 parties their views on the consequences of the decision, but the first
23 one, of course, we would hear is what Mr. Hedaraly says he would need at
24 least. And that's what I'm inquiring into at this moment.
25 MR. KAY: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, could you give us any indication? I
2 think the question to you has how been phrased in some 10, 15, or 20
3 lines, so I hope you understand what I'm seeking.
4 MR. HEDARALY: I hope so too. And if I don't, I'm sure you will
5 make sure to remind me.
6 I will stay vague because we are in open session still, but the
7 Prosecution has --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We could move in private session if you would prefer
9 to do that.
10 MR. HEDARALY: I don't think it's necessary, unless the Chamber
11 wants more detail. But given some of the logistical issues that are
12 involved that I believe the Chamber is familiar with, we were thinking
13 that the week of the 17th of May would be the easier week. Any time
14 after that, possible the week before. But because of these logistical
15 issues, it could be tight. But that was the minimum time that we would
16 require to -- to get the witnesses here.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Then I take it - but I'm addressing the parties - would it be the
19 best way to proceed by means of written decision -- by written
20 submissions, and would you prefer to make those submissions after you
21 have filed a request for a certificate for a interlocutory appeal, or at
22 the same time, or after a decision has been taken on such a request for a
24 I'm just now asking you whether written submissions - that's the
25 first part of my question - and the second is in what time-frame you
1 would consider to be the appropriate way of approaching the matter.
2 MR. KAY: First of all, the drafting of the certificate, request
3 for a certificate, is -- is taking place, and that will be filed at an
4 early stage next week.
5 When the Court considers that and considers the merits of it,
6 it -- it depends what flows after that as to what direction the matter
7 goes in.
8 This is quite a big resource implication with it, as -- as well,
9 because counsel and people have to become involved in dealing with
10 this -- this matter in a -- quite a detailed way. And I'm reluctant to
11 expend energy and resources on that at a time when they could be going --
12 going elsewhere. It -- it has had a knock-on consequence already in --
13 in our preparations.
14 And so I would welcome that we deal with each issue on a
15 stage-by-stage basis. The certificate, whether there is an appeal, then
16 that matter go up to appeal to be decided, and then we see where we stand
17 at a decision from the Appeals Chamber.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you're -- at every new stage in the
19 proceedings, we'll consider, having consulted the parties, what we need
20 to know from the parties for any decision to be taken, whether that's a
21 decision to further wait, or whether it's a decision to immediately
22 proceed. But we'll do it in that way that we'll consider at every
23 relevant stage what is best to be done, and we'll consult the parties on
25 And then since we may not be in court for quite a while, it could
1 be that either the Chamber calls for the parties to attend court or seeks
2 written submissions on specific questions that will then be related to
3 the parties.
4 MR. KAY: Yes, I understand that, Your Honour. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: In light of the time, I will be very brief.
7 Your Honours should know that we will also be joining in that
8 motion to oppose the granting of the re-opening.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Irrespective of how it's drafted, or --
10 Mr. Kay is not ready yet, but we do -- we do understand that you
11 are seriously considering to join the motion, whether or not for
12 additional reasons.
13 Mr. ...
14 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. MISETIC: Our position, again, based on the specific
17 interests of our client in this matter is that rather than taking
18 things -- or proverbially speaking, playing by ear, that instead of
19 waiting to see how things develop and then in two or three weeks' time
20 running into some of the issues that perhaps OTP will then at that point
21 say, Now we need another two to three weeks to schedule the arrival of
22 the witness, which would then put us into June - or "witnesses" I should
23 say - that we already proceed with certain plans to bring witnesses. And
24 if the need arises in the interim, we've reached an agreement on -- that
25 we have to postpone it to a later date or something to that effect, then
1 that assures that things are moving forward. But right now, since we
2 don't know who's going to file which motions, what the arguments are
3 going to be, et cetera, we just fear that we're looking at a six-to
4 eight-week timetable to even get the witnesses here. And as you saw from
5 our motion yesterday, obviously that's -- that would defeat the very
6 motion that we filed yesterday, in terms of keep things on schedule.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was perfectly clear from that motion.
8 Of course, if the parties would -- and we always encourage -- if
9 the parties would agree on certain matters, of course, the Chamber would
10 be glad to hear that. Or if you would say that we would need ten days
11 after that moment, et cetera.
12 At the same time, I'm fully aware that the positions of the
13 parties are such that it might be very difficult to reach any agreements
14 other than on small, practical issues where the positions are
15 fundamentally opposed, I would say.
16 So, therefore, not to say that I would not further encourage you,
17 that the Chamber is fully aware of the limits of that.
18 Finally, before we adjourn, any other matter to be raised?
19 Yes, if it is transcribed that we have overlooked all that, it is
20 that we have not overlooked all that.
21 Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: Yes, I'm reminded now to bring up an issue that
23 came up yesterday which is that D970, the translation, was updated; and
24 P1205 is a duplicate still with the incorrect translation. And we would
25 ask that that exhibit be removed from evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And we are now talking about the 77th -- no.
2 MR. MISETIC: This is it --
3 JUDGE ORIE: 1204, 1205.
4 MR. MISETIC: This is D970. The Trial Chamber will remember, I
5 think, it's an artillery order from before --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. MISETIC: -- the operation. P1205 was Bar tabled, I believe,
8 with Mr. Theunens, as a duplicate of that. And that still has incorrect
9 translations attached.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you would like to have --
11 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- that P1205 be --
13 MR. MISETIC: Vacated.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Vacated. Another way of dealing with that, and I'm
15 not fully at this moment acquainted with what problems could arise, to
16 replace P1205 by a simple sheet saying "Identical to D970." That if
17 anyone wants to look at P1205, that -- if reference is made to it in
18 court and can't find it, that he finds the traffic sign on a page which
19 then replaces P1205.
20 MR. MISETIC: That's fine, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, is it possible that P1205 will be
22 replaced by a reference that it is identical to D970.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, and I will make sure to
24 replace the page with a sign, as you say. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 I haven't asked you about it, Mr. Hedaraly, but it seems to be a
2 logical and simple matter.
3 MR. HEDARALY: To the extent that documents are duplicates,
4 Your Honour, that will not be a problem.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter?
6 We will adjourn sine die.
7 But the last thing I would like to say to the parties is that the
8 Chamber is also wanting to close this case and to deliver Judgement at
9 the earliest possibility. There's nothing else on the mind of this
10 Chamber as to -- not only fairly, but also in the context and within the
11 possibilities to expeditiously, which may sound, at this moment, as a
12 word which is not self-explanatory, but that's what the Chamber wishes to
13 do. And, in this respect, it seems that the parties and the Chamber are
14 on the same line.
15 We adjourn, sine die.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned sine die.