Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 346

 1                           Friday, 19 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 7     IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

 8             Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Good morning to each and everyone in

10     and around the courtroom.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14     Douglas Stringer, appearing for the Prosecution, with Sarah Clanton and

15     Uros Zigic, and our Case Manager, Thomas Laugel.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             For the Defence, please.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

21             So we're waiting for the witness.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dzakula.  We will continue with

24     the examination-in-chief by the Prosecution, Mr. Stringer.  I remind you,

25     Mr. Dzakula, that you have still under oath.


Page 347

 1                           WITNESS:  VELJKO DZAKULA [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dzakula.  Can you hear me well and understand

 6     me?

 7        A.   Good morning.  I hear you well and I understand you.

 8        Q.   Now, yesterday when we finished, we had been talking about the

 9     three Serbian Autonomous Regions.  We talked about the conflict, the war

10     in Croatia and then we were talking about the Vance Plan which brought us

11     into -- to the end of 1991.  What I'd like to now do is to move into 1992

12     and ask whether there was a change in the structure, the political

13     structure, of the three SAOs in Croatia during the early part of 1992,

14     whether they were organised differently.

15        A.   Yes.  In early 1992, in February, or rather on the

16     26th of February, there was an Assembly meeting in Baranja at which the

17     Republic of Serbian Krajina was constituted and that included the three

18     areas:  SAO Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem; SAO Krajina; and

19     SAO Western Krajina.  Now they constituted one single republic which was

20     named the Serbian Krajina.

21        Q.   If we could please call up Exhibit 65 ter 809.  Okay,

22     Mr. Dzakula, you see it on the screen in front of you.  If we could

23     perhaps make it a little bit bigger so we can read it.  Are you able to

24     recognise this document, Mr. Dzakula?

25        A.   Yes, I do recognise it.

Page 348

 1        Q.   And what is this?

 2        A.   This is the Official Gazette of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

 3     which reports about the decision to proclaim the constitution of the

 4     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 5        Q.   And drawing your attention to the first full paragraph that

 6     appears under the title, decision to proclaim the constitution, I just

 7     want to address one question regarding to the dates that appear in

 8     this -- in this document.  And again you're not going to be able to see

 9     it on the screen.  Tell me if you can.  I'm referring to the

10     paragraph that says:  The constitution of the RSK which has been adopted

11     on the session, the Serbian Autonomous Krajina on 19th of February, 1991.

12     And then the date, 19th of February appears a couple of more times in the

13     document there.

14             Do you recall if that is actually a correct date that the RS --

15     excuse me, the SAO Krajina had adopted the constitution?

16        A.   No.  The date here is incorrect.

17        Q.   And if we can just set that one aside then and I would like to

18     move to the next exhibit, which is 65 ter 0995.  And again if we could

19     make it bigger, there are two corrigenda here and I would like to direct

20     your attention to the second one.

21             Are you able to read that document as it appears in front you of

22     you, Mr. Dzakula?

23        A.   Yes, now I can.

24             MR. STRINGER:  This is tab 27, I should have mentioned,

25     Your Honours.  The constitution is tab 26.

Page 349

 1        Q.   Do you see here a reference to the -- the 19th of February, 1991,

 2     date that we just saw in the constitution?

 3        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And now what is this constitution -- or this corrigendum

 5     doing?

 6        A.   The corrigendum says that the decision to promulgate the

 7     constitution of the Republic of Serbian Krajina should not be with the

 8     date 19th February 1991 but rather 19th of December, 1991, in three

 9     places.  The decision on the promulgation of the constitution law and

10     implementation, instead of date 19th of February, 1991, the date should

11     also be 19th of December, 1991, which means it's a correction of the

12     date.

13        Q.   And is this consistent with your own recollection of the date

14     that the RSK constitution was first adopted?

15        A.   As for the adoption itself, I heard about it in the media because

16     Western Slavonia did not take part in that on that particular date with

17     its assembly.  We did participate on the 26th of February, 1992, but this

18     was the promulgation.  I believe that it was just in writing and that the

19     three assemblies did not actually meet on that date, because they

20     couldn't have met.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we're going to come back to the

23     constitution in a few moments, but I have that as one of the agreed

24     documents and we would move that into evidence at this time.  This is

25     0809 as part of the law library.

Page 350

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So only 0809?

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Well, I meant I was --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the corrigendum?

 4             MR. STRINGER:  And the corrigendum as well.  It was my intention

 5     also to ...

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked with an L number, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 809 shall be assigned

 8     Exhibit L-3, and 65 ter document 995 shall be assigned Exhibit L4.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. STRINGER:

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Dzakula, you made a reference then to the 26th of

13     February, 1992, I believe, and just as an overview as an introduction

14     because we'll look at some of the documents, can you tell the Chamber

15     essentially what happened then on the 26th of February, 1992?

16        A.   On the 26th of February, 1992, in Beli Manastir in

17     Eastern Slavonia, or, rather, Baranja, the three assemblies met:  The

18     Assembly of the SAO Krajina, the SAO of Western Slavonia, and the SAO of

19     Baranja and Western Srem.  On that day, the Republic of Serbian Krajina

20     was constituted with a new constitution, or rather, the amendments to the

21     constitution.  On that day, the president of the Republic of Serbian

22     Krajina was elected as well as the prime minister and the government with

23     the ministers and also the Speaker of the Assembly of the Republic of

24     Serbian Krajina with his deputies.

25        Q.   And you just referred to amendments to the constitution.

Page 351

 1             Mr. STRINGER:  Could we please call up Exhibit 0954.  We're going

 2     to have make a bit of a change on the translation.  Now we see -- now we

 3     see, I think, what is the first page or the page that corresponds to the

 4     original language version on the screen.

 5        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, can you -- first of all, can you read this and tell

 6     us what it is.

 7        A.   The font is quite small for me to be able to read it.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Perhaps we could give the witness the binder that

 9     has this document.  It's tab 30.  Excuse me, tab 28.  Tab 28 in the --

10     from the binder.

11        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, while that is being pulled out for you, it's been

12     made bigger on the screen.

13        A.   Yes, I'm listening to you and waiting for the question.

14        Q.   Okay.  What can you tell us about this document then?  What is

15     this?

16        A.   It is a decision on proclaiming amendments 1 to 6 to the

17     constitution of the republic of the Serbian Krajina.

18        Q.   And if I could just direct your attention to amendment number 1,

19     here is says:

20             "The territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina shall comprise

21     the Serbian districts of Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem, and

22     Western Slavonia."

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes, I see that.

25        Q.   My question is this:  You've -- yesterday in your testimony you

Page 352

 1     described a split or a going of different -- taking of different roads as

 2     between yourself and Mr. Hadzic.  The question here is:  Why did you

 3     support or why did you agree to join the RSK then at this point?

 4        A.   Well, the Vance Plan envisaged that local authorities would be

 5     accepted in the area where war was being waged.  As Mr. Hadzic had

 6     adopted the Vance Plan and so did the others, I believe that that was the

 7     moment, perhaps, to resolve the issue together because it was practically

 8     impossible to be separate.  Because, according to the agreement envisaged

 9     by the Vance Plan, Yugoslavia was the guarantee of its implementation,

10     and at that moment we could only find support in the then-Yugoslavia

11     because that was what the Vance Plan envisaged.

12        Q.   And then going to amendment number 2 the first paragraph of that:

13             "The assembly of the RSK shall appoint and relieve of his post

14     the president of the republic and shall control his work."

15             Do you know who was appointed, if anyone, who was appointed by

16     the Assembly to be the president of the republic then?

17        A.   On that day the Assembly of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

18     elected, or, rather, appointed Goran Hadzic as the president of the

19     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

20        Q.   And then amendment number 3, paragraph number 1, did Mr. Hadzic

21     propose a candidate for the position of prime minister?

22        A.   Yes, he did.  Goran Hadzic immediately after being elected

23     appointed Zdravko Zecevic as the prime minister or the premier of the

24     government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 954.  Again

Page 353

 1     it perhaps could be for the law library.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked as an L number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 954 shall be

 5     assigned Exhibit L5.  Thank you.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is 65 ter 0951.  Sorry,

 7     Your Honour, it's tab 30.  This is tab 30.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Dzakula, on this document I want to direct your

 9     attention to item number 140.

10        A.   Yes, I can see that.  The decision on the election of the

11     prime minister and government ministers of the Republic of Serbian

12     Krajina.

13        Q.   And what's the date of this?

14        A.   The date is -- let me just have a look.  The

15     26th of February, 1992.

16        Q.   And as you've already said, this is where Mr. Zecevic was elected

17     prime minister.

18        A.   Yes, Mr. Zecevic was elected as the prime minister on that day.

19        Q.   And then you appear in item number 2 as a member of the

20     government; correct?

21        A.   Yes, I am listed under number 2.

22        Q.   And did you have a portfolio or a specific area within the

23     government that were responsible for?

24        A.   Later on, I was appointed as the deputy prime minister to take

25     care of the development of the economy, forestry in the first place,

Page 354

 1     because that was my profession.

 2        Q.   And at the very beginning of your testimony you indicated that

 3     you held a -- a position within the government itself?

 4        A.   Yes.  I said that I was the deputy prime minister in charge of

 5     forestry.

 6        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you to look at the person named in number 4

 7     here, Stevo Bogic.  Who was he?

 8        A.   Stevo Bogic was also a deputy prime minister from

 9     Eastern Slavonia.

10        Q.   Did you know him before the RSK was formed?

11        A.   No, I -- I did not know him earlier.  I only met him then.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender 951 also

13     for the law library.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 951 shall be

16     assigned Exhibit L6.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  If I may, Mr. Stringer --

18             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, you have in answer to Mr. Stringer's

20     question, described Mr. Bogic also as a deputy prime minister.

21             I have two questions arising out of that.  How many deputy prime

22     ministers were there?

23             And the second question is whether persons with the designation

24     of deputy prime minister had a higher status than the other persons who

25     were ministers.

Page 355

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there were three

 2     deputy prime ministers:  The first one was Jovo Kablar, the second was

 3     Stevo Bogic, and the third was myself.  I was in charge of forestry.  We

 4     did not have a special status.  The reason was that the three

 5     SAO Krajinas had joined so the idea was that the former prime ministers

 6     should now retain the position of deputy prime ministers as the

 7     representatives of their SAO Krajinas.  And as Mr. Goran Hadzic had

 8     become the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, then the

 9     second-ranking man from their government became the prime minister.  We

10     did not have any special status, especially I did not because I was in

11     charge of a marginal area in their view and that was forestry.  They

12     believed that politics and security were far more important.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

14             Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Technical glitch.  Can you hear me?

21             MR. STRINGER:  I believe the -- [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear me now?

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Is that already now?

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine.  Very good.

Page 356

 1             Mr. Dzakula, you said -- again, transcript page 6, line 20, you

 2     said that after having been elected president, Goran Hadzic nominated

 3     Mr. Zdravko Zecevic.

 4             If we could have the document again uploaded, the document that

 5     we had earlier.  Thank you.

 6             Here we are.

 7             And on this document, 65 ter 954, we see that the assembly

 8     elected Zdravko Zecevic as prime minister.  So the question that I have

 9     is the following:  The assembly did elect a prime minister, the person

10     that was nominated by the president; right?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] If I were continuing the same

13     train of thought, all the ministers that you have here listed on 954,

14     including yourself, were nominated by the president and then elected by

15     the Assembly; right?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That is what the document

17     says, and that was official.  But before the assembly session we had an

18     agreement about who would be the member of the government from which

19     SAO Krajina.  So before the assembly was convened and before the voting

20     it was already agreed who would be the prime minister, who would be the

21     deputy prime ministers and who would be the ministers in charge of

22     specific areas.  And then formally, the prime minister,

23     Mr. Zdravko Zecevic, who was elected read out in the assembly the names

24     of the members of the government for the sake of form.  It even says here

25     in this document that we were all ministers though there was a decision

Page 357

 1     that there would be three deputy prime ministers, whereas, the others

 2     would be just ministers.

 3             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One last little detail, Mr. Dzakula.

 5             You said there were three deputy ministers, and you explained

 6     why, but then I see four names on the list, on top of the list, without

 7     any specification, and the fourth one is Bosko Bozanic.  Was he a deputy

 8     prime minister as well?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.  It's difficult

10     to remember specifically his case, but I don't think he was.  He was a

11     minister.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

13             Mr. Stringer.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             Mr. President, what we'd like to do is to play a sort video-clip

16     and I'd ask the witness to look at it.  We'll come back with some

17     questions.  We're less -- the Prosecution, I should say, is less

18     interested in what is said.  We're going to try to use the video to ask

19     Mr. Dzakula to identify some people.

20             I'm sorry, this is from 65 ter 4945 -- no, I'm sorry.  4924.  And

21     it's what we call video 3865.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "Voiceover]: Reporter:  The Great National Assembly of the

24     Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem has adopted the new

25     constitution proclaiming the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  This new

Page 358

 1     country comprises the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina and the

 2     Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem with Knin as its

 3     capital."

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see Mr. Zivanovic on his feet, Mr. Stringer.

 5             Yes.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, Mr. President.  I have no

 7     sound on my equipment.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So now I have sound so please go ahead.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I cannot follow the video.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You don't have sound?  Okay.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Let's just -- we can replay it.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Shall we replay the video?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.  Was counsel able to hear that?

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   What I'd like to do, Mr. Dzakula, is just go back to the

19     beginning of this, and we're going -- just going to stop this a couple of

20     places along the way, and I'll ask you some questions.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.

23        Q.   And the first question is whether you recognise this -- the room,

24     the hall, that these people are in.

25        A.   Yes.  That was the hall in which the Assembly of the Serbian

Page 359

 1     Republic of Krajina was held on 26th of February, 1992.

 2        Q.   Now, where was this hall located?

 3        A.   Well, somewhere in the centre of Beli Manastir, in a building.  I

 4     don't recall how it looked like, but it was in the centre of the town.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And then in this frame here, do you recognise

 6     Goran Hadzic?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.  He is sitting in the front row.  He has his hand on

 8     his forehead.  And I think he is wearing a uniform.

 9        Q.   Okay.  I'll just ...

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. STRINGER:

12        Q.   Do you recognise the man sitting next to Goran Hadzic here?

13        A.   Sitting next to him is the person that I don't know.  I know,

14     though, the person sitting behind him.

15        Q.   Okay.  Who's the person sitting behind him?  And if it is

16     possible to take the pen with this particular image, perhaps you could

17     indicate -- not possible.  Okay.

18             It's not possible with the pen, Mr. Dzakula.  Can you just tell

19     us who are the -- who is the person you are talking about.  Where is he

20     positioned in respect of Mr. Hadzic?

21        A.   Sitting right behind Mr. Hadzic, the person with black hair, a

22     moustache and a beard, and it seems that he is looking at the camera.

23        Q.   And who is -- who's that person?

24        A.   That's Stevo Bogic who was elected vice prime minister at this

25     assembly.

Page 360

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now you've indicated -- were you -- were you at the

 2     assembly in February of 1992 when these events occurred?

 3        A.   Yes, I was.  I was sitting somewhere in the rear rows.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  I'm just going to, with Your Honours' permission,

 6     play it one last time from the beginning.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would propose to

 9     make a still photograph from this video and to indicate who Mr. Bogic was

10     as he has been indicated.  I'm not sure if the Registrar can suggest a

11     way we can do it directly from the video.  But perhaps at the break we

12     can make a still and ask the witness then to make the marking on the

13     still photograph, if that's the easiest.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If you can make the still, Mr. Prosecutor, and

16     give -- give the photograph to the Registrar he can publish it then

17     after the break and we can do whatever needs to be done.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. Laugel has indicated he thinks he can make the

19     still from where he is sitting now, so we'll work on that.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

21             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is 65 ter 946.

22        Q.   And on this one, once it comes up, Mr. Dzakula, we'll ask you to

23     focus on item number 139.

24        A.   Yes, I am looking at it.

25        Q.   And what is item number 139 here?  First of all, can you tell us

Page 361

 1     what this is from?

 2        A.   This is a decision published in the Official Gazette of the

 3     Republic of Serbian Krajina, signed by President Mile Paspalj.  And here

 4     we have Article 139 and that is a decision on the election of the

 5     president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and it reads that

 6     Goran Hadzic is hereby elected president of the Republic of Serbian

 7     Krajina.  This took place at the first regular session of the Assembly of

 8     the RSK held on the 26th of February, 1992.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 946

10     into the law library.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall assigned Exhibit L7.  Thank you.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Now if we could go back to the constitution, which

14     is Exhibit 809, and it might move things faster to give the witness the

15     document in the hard copy.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which is tab 26.

17             MR. STRINGER:  This is tab 26.

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Dzakula, there, do you have the decision to proclaim the

19     constitution of RSK?

20        A.   Yes, I do.  I have it in my hands.

21        Q.   And a few minutes ago, we focussed on the first paragraph that

22     had the erroneous dates, 19th of February, that were subsequently

23     corrected to 19th of December.  Do you see that?

24        A.   This paper that I have, again, says 19th of February, 1991.

25        Q.   Okay.  What -- based on your knowledge, what exactly happened on

Page 362

 1     the 19th of December?  Where did the RSK constitution come into effect or

 2     where was it promulgated?  What is the relevance of the

 3     19th of December date, which is the correct date?

 4        A.   Well, the 19th of December was, if I remember correctly, when

 5     Croatia announced their break-away from Yugoslavia, and I think that on

 6     that date they wanted to enhance the constitution for the Republic of

 7     Serbian Krajina.

 8        Q.   It's a bit confusing because the dates are wrong here.  But here

 9     it says that the RSK constitution was adopted by the SAO Krajina on the

10     19th of December -- would be December with the corrected version.  And it

11     also indicates the same for the SBWS and Western Slavonia.  And, again,

12     taking the corrigendum into account, this indicates that all three SAOs

13     accepted the RSK constitution on the 19th of December, 1991.  My question

14     is whether that's correct?

15        A.   This is not correct because the three Assemblies did not meet on

16     that day.  I am sure about the Western Slavonia Assembly, and if I

17     remember correctly, the Assembly of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem

18     and did not meet either.

19             Now speaking about these dates, I think at that time there was

20     talk about dismissal of Mr. Milan Babic, who was still active in

21     SAO Krajina at the time and that this joint meeting of the assemblies

22     never happened.

23        Q.   In any event, all three of the SAOs accepted the constitution as

24     amended then on the 26th of February, just to round it off - is that

25     correct? - February 1992.

Page 363

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, the 26th of February, 1992.  That was the date when

 2     all three Assemblies of the SAOs accepted or adopted the constitution of

 3     the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 4        Q.   Could you please turn to Article 68 of this document, the

 5     constitution.  Article 68 is on page 18 of the English version.  Excuse

 6     me, page 19.

 7             Do you have that, Mr. Dzakula?

 8        A.   Yes, I can see Article 68.

 9        Q.   This relates to the assembly.  Article 68, also 69, 70 and

10     subsequent articles, do these relate to the powers and duties of the

11     assembly of the RSK under the constitution?

12        A.   Yes.  This relates to the role and the function of the assembly

13     in the RSK.

14        Q.   And then moving on, if you will, to Article 78, which is on

15     page 22 of the English translation, does this relate to the powers and

16     function of the president of the republic?

17        A.   Yes, precisely so.

18        Q.   As well as Article 79, 80, 81, 82, and other articles.  This is

19     the section that relates to the president.

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.

21        Q.   And then the role and function of the government of the RSK then

22     is addressed, beginning with Article 84; is that correct?  If you could

23     move to 84 in page 26.

24        A.   Yes, that is correct.

25        Q.   And then, finally, if you could move to Article 102.  Article 2

Page 364

 1     [sic] is on page 30?

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, why are we doing this?  Why are

 3     we -- why do we need the witness to say, Yes, this is the section on the

 4     president's function and, yes, this is -- we can read that ourselves, no?

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, of course, Your Honour.  I guess I'm going to

 6     be asking the witness a few more questions about specifically the powers

 7     of the president of the republic as they were exercised, and so this was

 8     simply a way to try to introduce the various functions.  But --

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Sorry for the interruption.

10             MR. STRINGER:  This is just going to take -- actually, probably

11     the most relevant one is the one we're now coming to which is

12     Article 102, because I want to talk in a few minutes about the president

13     and the armed forces of the republic.

14        Q.   Do you see that Article 102 relates to the armed forces?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, the question, Mr. Dzakula, is:  In your capacity as a

17     deputy prime minister, did you ever have any dealings with Goran Hadzic

18     in relations to the armed forces, armed forces of the RSK?  Any dealings

19     with him, did you observe him interacting with the armed forces or

20     military units of the RSK?

21        A.   Yes.  I had an experience in January 1993.  After the

22     20th of January, to be more precise.

23        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber about that experience, please.

24        A.   On the 19th or the 20th of January, the Croatian army attacked

25     Maslenica which is situated due south of Knin.  A few days after that,

Page 365

 1     our commander in Western Slavonia received an order to get the tanks on

 2     the move that were previously stored in a warehouse according to the

 3     agreement on two keys which means that UNPROFOR was supervising that and

 4     to head to -- for Nova Gradiska and another place.

 5             We met with --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  There are

 7     too many names and titles.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please slow down a little bit for the

 9     interpreters, especially when you with giving names, places and dates so

10     that they can interpret correctly.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do that, Your Honours.

12             So, in the course of those few days after the 20th of January,

13     when a meeting took place with the persons listed, we briefed each other

14     about what was happening, and who issued an order.  It turns out that the

15     order was issued by General Novakovic, the commander the Army of RSK, to

16     our commander in Western Slavonia, Jovan Cubric.  He was a commander as a

17     matter of formality but he was in civilian clothes.  When I asked him

18     what was the meaning of that, he said that we had to attack Gradiska and

19     Novska which were the places under the control of the

20     Republic of Croatia.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. Dzakula, I think counsel has an

22     intervention to make.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would object to the -- this line

24     of questioning of my learned friends because Novska and Gradiska were not

25     part of the indictment.

Page 366

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  The evidence is relevant to showing Mr. Hadzic's

 3     relationship and command over armed forces of the RSK and it's true that

 4     these specific places are outside -- actually, it's -- it's -- it's we

 5     disagree.  We're now in 1993.  Mr. Hadzic is president of the republic of

 6     the RSK which includes all these areas, so we don't think it's outside

 7     the scope of the indictment for this particular time-frame.  If we were

 8     talking about 1991, before Mr. Hadzic was president of the combined

 9     territories of what had been the three SAOs there might be a point.  But

10     here it's 1993.  Hadzic is president and commander under the constitution

11     of the armed forces of the RSK, and so evidence relating to his command

12     and control over those armed forces is relevant so long as it's dealing

13     with issues that are inside the RSK.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I continue?

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   Yes.  Please continue.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But slowly, Mr. Witness.  Continue, but slowly.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Your Honours.

20             At that time, I asked Colonel Jovan Cubric, commander in the

21     Western Slavonia, to ring the commander of the Army of the Republic of

22     Serbian Krajina, Mr. Novakovic, and to talk to him.  And that's what he

23     did.

24             I started talking to Mr. Novakovic and asking him why he had

25     issued such an order.  He responded by saying, Who are you, and what is

Page 367

 1     your position?  I introduced myself.  I said my name was Veljko Dzakula,

 2     the vice prime minister of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, to which he

 3     said, I have nothing to discuss with you.  I have my Supreme Commander,

 4     Goran Hadzic, the president of the republic, and I am carrying out his

 5     orders.  And he hung up.

 6             I asked our commander at that point to establish a communication

 7     between me and the president of the republic.  I don't know how he

 8     managed to do that, but we spoke for a short period of time over the

 9     telephone, that is to say, Mr. Goran Hadzic as the president of the

10     republic, and I as the vice prime minister.  I asked him why he had

11     issued such an order to General Novakovic, which he passed on to our

12     command, in relation to a tank attack on Novska and Gradiska to which he

13     said that we were encircled by Ustasha forces that were preparing an

14     impending attack on us.

15             I told him that I consulted our commander, as well as

16     representatives of UNPROFOR, and that there was no danger of that kind at

17     all, to which he said, If you are sure, I'm going to withdraw my order.

18     The same situation repeated three times in the course of two days.  So he

19     again repeated an order to General Novakovic, and General Novakovic

20     ordered again for an attack to be launched on Novska and Gradiska.  We

21     reacted to this in the same manner, and, as a result, Goran Hadzic again

22     withdrew his order.  After that, we were asked to provide written

23     guarantees with our signatures that we were assuming responsibilities if

24     anything happened in the event of attack by the Republic of Croatia on

25     our territory.  A number of us signed this document.  We assumed the

Page 368

 1     responsibility, and through our command, we send it over to

 2     General Novakovic, as well as to the president of the republic,

 3     Goran Hadzic.  We wanted to reassure them that there was no threat and

 4     that we did not want to be in the breach of the accepted Vance Plan

 5     on demilitarisation.

 6             I have to explain this.  From General Zabala [phoen], the

 7     commander of Sector West, we received written guarantees that they were

 8     going to defend us but only if we did not remove our heavy weaponry from

 9     the warehouse because only under such circumstances can he use his

10     UNPROFOR troops for defending us in case we were -- come under an attack

11     by the Croatian forces.  If we drove the tanks out and started

12     shooting --

13        Q.   I -- I apologise for cutting across.  I think you've moved beyond

14     what was the -- the -- the main point here.  And if the Defence or the

15     Chamber wants to ask you more about the issue with UNPROFOR, they will.

16     But I'm looking at the clock and I'd like to keep us moving, if I may.

17             Do you know where Goran Hadzic was located at the time that you

18     spoke to him, as you've just described, about the order to attack?

19        A.   I was told that they reached him on the telephone line in

20     Belgrade.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Now, Mr. President, we'll got that still photo,

23     and perhaps now would be a good time to put that back up and see if we

24     can finish off that issue.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

Page 369

 1             MR. STRINGER:  As now been given -- it's been now given

 2     65 ter number 4924.2.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Dzakula, with this item, you can actually take the pen,

 4     and if you would kindly place a circle around the person that you were

 5     mentioning or identifying as Mr. Bogic.

 6        A.   This is Mr. Stevo Bogic.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Could I ask that we give this now photograph as

 8     marked a number, and the Prosecution would tender that in evidence.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             MR. STRINGER:  So, Mr. President, we're tendering the photo not

11     the video itself at this time.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 4924.2 marked by the

13     witness in court shall assigned Exhibit P35.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. STRINGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Dzakula we'd like to show you another short video-clip and

17     again ask you if you can identify some people.  This is from 65 ter 4945.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That will be tab -- you have it, Mr. Usher.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             "[Voiceover]:  Goran Hadzic:  May God be with you, heros!

23             "Public:  May God with you.

24             "Goran Hadzic:  I greet you all in the name of all the citizens

25     of the republic of Srpska Krajina and please allow me to thank you for

Page 370

 1     all you did for us all.  You standing here before us, you are the new

 2     Obilics and Sindjelics, the new heros whose actions will be written about

 3     in the history of the Serbian people.  You and our brothers who gave

 4     their lives will be entered into history books as saints who spilled

 5     their blood for the freedom of the Serbian people.  Through this act

 6     which you had carried out, you show that the Serbian people were never on

 7     their knees and never asked anybody for mercy, that we can accomplish all

 8     that we want by ourselves.  And from this place here we sent a joint

 9     message to all the wheelers and dealers of the world that the Republic of

10     Serbian Krajina is not for sale.  No price can be put on our freedom and

11     we will not sell it for any money in the world.  We are now in a very

12     difficult situation encircled on all sides by our enemies but we have

13     never yet been so unified and determined to defend our freedom as we are

14     today.  And what is the most important?  We are aware of our enemies, and

15     nobody can fool the Serbian people anymore with some new 'brotherhood and

16     unity,' some new deceits.  All citizens of the Republic of Serbian

17     Krajina are equal and will be equal regardless of their ethnicity, but it

18     must be known that this is the Republic of Serbian Krajina and those who

19     accept that can live here.  Those who do not want to accept it can leave

20     the Republika of Srpska Krajina.  Now I don't want to tire our brave

21     troops in the sun anymore.  I would like to thank them once again and to

22     publicly announce here for the first time that from today we have two new

23     generals of the Serbian army.  Those are Borislav Djukic and

24     Milan Martic.  Cheers and thank you!"

25             MR. STRINGER:

Page 371

 1        Q.   First question, Mr. Dzakula, is whether you personally were

 2     present at this rally or this speech that we've just seen?

 3        A.   No, I was not present.

 4        Q.   Do you -- are in a position to identify or tell us who

 5     Milan Martic is?  He's named in that ...

 6        A.   Yes.  He is mentioned, and he is visible in the footage.

 7     Milan Martic was the minister of the interior, in charge of the police.

 8        Q.   And Borislav Djukic?

 9        A.   Borislav Djukic was one of his assistants.

10        Q.   And now it is indicated in the video Mr. Hadzic said that there

11     are now two generals of the Serbian army.  Do you remember that?

12        A.   Yes, I remember that.  Boro Djukic and Milan Martic were

13     appointed as the new generals of the Army of the Republic of Serbian

14     Krajina.

15        Q.   And do you know who appointed them?

16        A.   They were appointed by the then-president of the Republic of

17     Serbian Krajina, Goran Hadzic.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender that

19     video which is 65 ter 4945.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

21             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is one that -- I apologise.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This video shall be assigned Exhibit P36.  Thank

23     you.

24             MR. STRINGER:  With the usher's assistance, I think it would be

25     better if we could take the next exhibit out of the binder.  It's 65 ter

Page 372

 1     961.  961, which is tab 31.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, just to clarify, the previous --

 4     the previous exhibit, or previous document, the video-clip, is it 4945

 5     full or 4945.1?

 6             MR. STRINGER:  .1.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  .1.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Just the clip itself.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, thank you very much.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Then, just a correction for the record, 4945.1

11     shall be assigned Exhibit P36.  Thank you.

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, now you have this exhibit in front of you.  Can you

14     tell us what it is and tell us if you recognise this.

15        A.   Yes, I recognise it.  These are the minutes from the session of

16     the Presidency of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  And could the witness please repeat the date.

18             MR. STRINGER:

19        Q.   Can you please repeat the date of the document, Mr. Dzakula.

20        A.   The meeting was held on 2nd of March, 1992.

21        Q.   And looking at the first page, we see that you were present along

22     with Mr. Hadzic.  Mr. Zecevic, Milan Martic are some of the people

23     present.  Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes, I can see that.

25        Q.   Now, what I would like to do is to pass over the first section of

Page 373

 1     this.  There's an introductory section made by General Adzic and

 2     Veljko Kostic and others.  They're talking about Travnik and places now

 3     where the war has spread to Bosnia-Herzegovina by this time.  If you

 4     would please turn, Mr. Dzakula, to page 43 of your version, page 31 of

 5     the English.

 6        A.   I have found it.

 7        Q.   So we see here that Mr. Hadzic makes some remarks as president of

 8     the RSK.

 9        A.   Yes, I can see that.

10        Q.   I'd actually like to move then down to the next speaker,

11     Mr. Milan Martic.

12        A.   Yes, I have found that too.

13        Q.   And the second paragraph he mentions Mr. Milan Babic, but I want

14     to pass over that.

15        A.   Yes, he does mention him.

16        Q.   And the middle of the next page in English which is about, for

17     you, Mr. Dzakula, about six paragraphs down.

18             And Mr. Martic is talking about pulling the army out.  And then

19     in the next paragraph he makes reference to "a transformation we are

20     about to undertake."

21             Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes, he see it.

23        Q.   And then we'll just move down one more time and then I'll ask you

24     a few questions.  Mr. Martic says in the next paragraph that:

25             "Therefore, I implore you - I think there are some obstructions,

Page 374

 1     things are moving slowly -- rather slowly - to speed up this

 2     transformation, the transformation of the police in the first place,

 3     which is supposed to remain a tangible force ..."

 4             And then he continues:

 5             "To have everything ready before the United Nations arrive - the

 6     military element - so that we can react fast ..."

 7             Now you were present at this meeting, Mr. Dzakula.  Can you tell

 8     the Chamber what sort of transformation Mr. Milan -- or, excuse me,

 9     Mr. Martic is talking about here?

10        A.   Well, Milan Martic is talking about the transformation of the

11     army into the police which should be an armed formation that would

12     welcome the troops of the United Nations and have the situation as it is.

13     He was not happy about the pace of the events, especially the equipping

14     of the units and the tempo at which they were being formed.

15        Q.   Now under the Vance Plan was it envisioned that the arm would

16     actually be transformed into the police?

17        A.   No.  The Vance Plan envisaged that the army would be disarmed,

18     that the JNA would leave the territory of Krajina where the war was going

19     on, and that the only armed formation could be the police - the local

20     police, as they called it -  with short-barrelled weapons.

21        Q.   And based on what you know and saw, did that actually take place?

22     Did the JNA leave, and did the local police only have short-barrelled

23     weapons?

24        A.   The JNA did leave the territory successively according to the

25     agreement as the UNPROFOR troops arrived.  However, the police kept their

Page 375

 1     long-barrelled weapons and in the demilitarisation process.  Only the

 2     police in Western Slavonia carried short-barrelled weapons, that is to

 3     say only pistols; whereas in the remaining parts of the Republic of

 4     Serbian Krajina, that is to say the former SAO Krajina, and Slavonia,

 5     Baranja and Western Srem, police continued to carry long-barrelled

 6     weapons.

 7        Q.   If you would please move to page 61 of your version of the

 8     minutes and page 44 of the English.  Towards the bottom of the English,

 9     page 44, Mr. Dzakula, remarks of Mr. Ilija Koncarevic.  Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes, I can see that.

11        Q.   All right.  And what was his position at the time in the RSK?

12        A.   Ilija Koncarevic was the Deputy Speaker of the Assembly of the

13     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

14        Q.   All right.  And then in the second paragraph of his remarks, he

15     is addressing Mr. Mitrovic.  And he says:

16             "But at the moment we really desperately need financial support

17     because we are unable to organise local government without financial

18     resources.  That is why we wrote to SFRY Assembly.  Our requests were

19     processed there to match the methods of financing Banja Luka, Skoplje,

20     Montenegro.  Therefore, we would be much obliged if you could release

21     these short-term resources urgently as we are penniless."

22             Mr. Dzakula, as a vice-president or a deputy prime minister of

23     the RSK government, is that an accurate statement of the financial

24     situation of the RSK here in early March 1992?

25        A.   Yes, this is correct information.  At the time we depended

Page 376

 1     completely on the funds we were receiving from Yugoslavia.  We did not

 2     have any resources of our own at that time.

 3        Q.   Then if you could please move to page 65 of yours, page 48 of the

 4     English.  Now, at that point, Mr. Paspalj is speaking and, Mr. Dzakula, I

 5     think you've mentioned him, but who was Mr. Paspalj?

 6        A.   Mr. Mile Paspalj was the Speaker of the Assembly of the Republic

 7     of Serbian Krajina.

 8        Q.   And here, on your page 65, top third of the English, page 48 he

 9     says:

10             "I would only like to say something in addition to the discussion

11     of Minister Martic."

12             And then it continues:

13             "...namely, that these are the times when we expect every

14     assistance from you, both financial and physical assistance, including

15     military and any other assistance necessary to put this machinery in

16     motion (and Ilija made a good point in this respect) - we all are running

17     on private funding ..."

18             So again, is this an accurate statement of the extent to which

19     RSK was depending on Serbia for financial and material assistance?

20        A.   Yes.  We did not have any resources of our own.

21        Q.   Now on page 67 to 71 of your version, beginning at page 49 of the

22     English, just the next page, Mr. Dzakula, now you speak.  And as you

23     indicate in your first remarks, you're speaking about the Serbian

24     district of Western Slavonia only.  Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I can see that.

Page 377

 1        Q.   And you say:

 2             "We have initiated talks with Minister Goulding which should be

 3     continued."

 4             And then you say, "it concerns the enlargement of the region."

 5      This is top of page 50 of the English.  And here you're talking about

 6     various places and enlarging the territory.  Again, I think we -- we

 7     touched on this yesterday.  What was your objective here, in terms of the

 8     Vance Owen protected areas and where they should fall within

 9     Western Slavonia?

10        A.   Well, I used that moment as Mr. Jovic was at the head of the

11     committee for negotiations with UN for us to attempt once again to expand

12     the UNPROFOR zone so as to include the places we have mentioned earlier,

13     Pozega, Slatina, Orahovica and Donji Miholjac so that this territory

14     where war was ongoing and that Serbs had left as refugees would be

15     protected by the UN and so that the people could return there.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Just a correction for the record.  Page 31,

17     line 7, I referred to the "Vance-Owen Plan" and that was a mistake.  It

18     is just the "Vance Plan."

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             MR. STRINGER:

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Dzakula, if you could now turn to page 79 of yours,

22     page 58 of the English.  And here we see Mr. Zecevic speaking.  And he

23     makes a statement here.  He is talking about 15.000 Croats from Benkovac.

24     Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes, I can see that section.

Page 378

 1        Q.   And I won't read the whole paragraph, but just a part of it.  He

 2     says he is in a panic when he thinks that 15.000 Croats would return to

 3     Benkovac.  And then he goes on to say:

 4             "The truth is that we cannot live together and we do not want to

 5     live with them anymore."

 6             Now this position, or I should say this statement about the

 7     Croats from Benkovac, first of all, did you share the view expressed by

 8     Mr. Zecevic here?

 9        A.   No.  I did not share his opinion, and this was generally known.

10        Q.   Now, was this opinion, was the position of Mr. Zecevic here, was

11     it shared, to your knowledge, by other people in the RSK government?

12        A.   The majority of the ministers shared Mr. Zecevic's opinion,

13     especially if they had to state their opinion in public.

14        Q.   Does this -- or to what extent, if any, does this statement

15     reflect the policy of the RSK government regarding return of non-Serbs

16     into parts of the RSK?

17        A.   Well, that was the official policy, that the non-Serbs could not

18     return to the RSK territory with the constant excuse that the conditions

19     for that had not been met yet.

20        Q.   Now, did this policy have an impact on the return of Serbs to the

21     areas that you're talking about in Western Slavonia?

22        A.   It certainly did.  Because that policy was opposed to the return

23     of Serbs to the areas that were not as we used to say at the time under

24     Serbian control but it was UNPA areas, and it was militarily and in the

25     civilian sense controlled by the Croatian side.  So this was also not

Page 379

 1     allowed for the Serbs to return, once again, with the excuse that the

 2     conditions for that had not been met.

 3        Q.   Now, at this point in time - again, March of 1992 - do you know

 4     what Mr. Hadzic's own views were on this point, on this issue, about

 5     Croats and Serbs returning to live together in these areas?

 6        A.   He was not in favour of the return of either the Serbs or the

 7     Croats or for a life together.

 8        Q.   Did you have any conversations with Mr. Hadzic about this issue

 9     around this period of time?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  I talked to him, I think, in late April or early

11     May 1992, when a government session was held in Eastern Slavonia.  I

12     think it was in Erdut.  Mr. Hadzic invited me to talk with him.  I

13     attended a government session, and then I came to his office.  He was

14     accompanied by Arkan, who was well known as a warrior.  He just greeted

15     me briefly and asked me the following:  Brother Veljko, is it true that

16     you advocate co-existence with the Croat?  I looked at him and I could

17     see that Arkan was looking at me in a very pronounced manner.  I replied

18     that that was not true and that that was not the case.  He asked me again

19     and he said, I will trust you if you tell me whether you are or not.  And

20     I said, No, I'm not advocating that.  He said, All right.  And I went

21     back to the government session.

22        Q.   Why did you say you were not advocating that?

23        A.   Well, the question itself was strange, and also in the presence

24     of Arkan, who was quite ruthless to people who did not express Serbdom as

25     he thought was fit, I was not courageous enough to confirm my beliefs in

Page 380

 1     front of them because I was afraid of consequences that could follow, and

 2     later on I really did experience that.

 3        Q.   Last question before the break, if I may, Mr. President, just a

 4     brief description of the place, the location where this conversation

 5     occurred.  You said his office.  Where was that?

 6        A.   That was in a building with high walls.  I think it was a castle

 7     or something like that where we were having the government session.  It's

 8     an old building fenced in.  It used to be some sort of a farm or sort of

 9     a agricultural co-operation, something like that.  But I did not really

10     notice much of that because I was burdened with other concerns and

11     problems.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, we will take the break now, come

14     back at 11.00.  The Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll take the break.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, we were told that you want to raise

21     an issue about documents before the witness comes in.  Sorry?

22             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Oh, it's the Defence.  Sorry.

24             Mr. Zivanovic, sorry about that.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 381

 1             Your Honour, I just tried to put this issue before the beginning

 2     of my cross-examination.  I already spoke with Mr. Stringer about it.

 3     Anyway, on my Defence exhibit list, there is one document.  It is under

 4     21.  It is -- sorry, may we move to the private session, please.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 382











11 Pages 382-383 redacted. Private session.
















Page 384

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness may be brought in.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, before the break, we were looking at the -- the

10     minutes of the SFRY meeting from the 2nd -- excuse me,

11     2nd of March, 1992.  I've got one last item I'd like to draw your

12     attention there.  If you could go to your page 92, page 68 of the

13     English.

14             If you could turn, please, to page 92 of that document, the

15     minutes.

16             Here, Mr. Dzakula, Mr. Hadzic makes a statement, and I think that

17     it's first useful to see what he's responding to.  And these are remarks

18     preceding Mr. Hadzic made by Radovan Karadzic.  And toward the end of

19     Mr. Karadzic's remarks, he talks about:

20             "Passing the initiative over to the Croats so they were prepared

21     to swap.  150.000 pieces of their best land in Vojvodina for 150.000

22     Serbs.  Who is going to make the Croats from Vojvodina move to Krajina?

23     These are nebulous ideas seen as abhorrent by the rest of the world,

24     though India and Pakistan did exactly the same thing.  It is rather

25     questionable if anything like that would be feasible in Europe at the

Page 385

 1     moment."

 2             And then Mr. Hadzic then responds:

 3             "There is nothing nebulous about -- in it.  The Serbs from Zagreb

 4     should resettle, as well as those from Belgrade, and it is out of

 5     question now."

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   So the question here, we've been talking about resettling Serbs

 9     back into the places where they lived in Western Slavonia or in the RSK.

10     Here, Mr. Hadzic is talking about resettling Serbs from other parts that

11     are not in the RSK.  Was that his view as well moving Serbs into the RSK

12     from outside.

13        A.   Yes, that was his position.  He thought that the Serbs from

14     Zagreb should move to the Krajina.

15        Q.   That's all have I for these minutes, Mr. Dzakula.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders into evidence

17     65 ter 961.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P37.  Thank you.

20             MR. STRINGER:

21        Q.   Before we move to the next document, Mr. Dzakula, I wanted to ask

22     you.  We've talked about various people who were in the RSK government or

23     associated with it during 1992.  Do you know who Milan Ilic was?

24        A.   I didn't hear his last name.  I only heard Milan.

25        Q.   Ilic.  Ilic.

Page 386

 1        A.   Milan Ilic.  At the moment, I cannot remember anyone by that

 2     name.

 3        Q.   Okay.  The next exhibit is 65 ter 1104, which is tab 34.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Actually, Mr. Registrar, I think we can work with

 5     this -- with the remaining documents, actually, on the screen.  None of

 6     them are as big as these last minutes have been.

 7        Q.   Do you see 1104 on the screen, Mr. Dzakula?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   And have you seen this before?

10        A.   Yes, I have.

11        Q.   Now, it's from 18th of May, 1992, a declaration authorising the

12     return of emigrants and displaced persons.  And was this declaration

13     published in the Official Gazette of the RSK?

14        A.   Yes, it was published in the RSK Official Gazette.

15        Q.   I'd like to draw your attention to item 2 paragraph 2 where this

16     is referring to the individuals taking part in the civil war on the

17     territory of what is now Republic of Serbian Krajina from 6th of April,

18     1941, to the 15th of May, 1945, and who did not violate international

19     regulations regarding war crimes who were not in the so-called NDH;

20     that's the independent state of Croatia, et cetera.  And then moving to

21     item 3:

22             "All individuals to whom the provisions of this declaration refer

23     may return to any part of the territory of the RSK without any

24     preconditions or consequences."

25             And this is over the name of Mile Paspalj.

Page 387

 1             Mr. Dzakula, I wanted to ask, the reference to this World War I

 2     period here, and these people that are referred or would be covered by

 3     this, what this is about.  Can you describe what this relates to?

 4        A.   First of all, it was World War II, not World War I, because we

 5     are talking of the period between April 1941 and May 1945.  This pertains

 6     to part of the Croatian population that was settled during the

 7     Second World War by Ante Pavelic in the territory of Croatia.  They

 8     mainly came from Western Slavonia and were resettled in Eastern Slavonia

 9     so this relates to them, because the majority of them were members of the

10     Ustasha army, and the presumption was that this referred to their right

11     of return.

12        Q.   Now, yeah, I did mistakenly refer to this as the World War I

13     period.  I just want to clarify something that you said.

14             You said that these were Croats -- at least what we have on the

15     transcript here, is that they came mainly from Western Slavonia; is that

16     correct?  You're referring to Croats who came from Western Slavonia

17     during World War II?

18        A.   No, those were Croats from western Herzegovina and they were

19     resettled to Eastern Slavonia during the reign of Ante Pavelic.

20        Q.   And can you tell the Chamber just very briefly roughly the

21     location.  Where is the western Herzegovina region located?

22        A.   Well, it's somewhere close to Mostar and Ljubuski that area.

23     That is western Herzegovina.  And right -- to the right of Mostar towards

24     Serbia is eastern Herzegovina.

25        Q.   And this is in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 388

 1        A.   Yes.  That's in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   So then who were the people that could be covered by this who

 3     were being authorised to return to any part of the RSK?

 4        A.   As far as I understand this, this means persons who were Croats

 5     who moved in, in the period 1941-1945, and I think that they moved into

 6     houses - I don't know who they belonged to - but, anyway, those were

 7     Croats, and some of them being members of the Ustasha forces were

 8     probably rewarded by given dwellings in that area.

 9        Q.   And those Croats, then, who were living in these regions of RSK

10     from World War II, what was to be their status now under this or how

11     would they be affected by this declaration?

12        A.   Well, many of them would have been affected in that you -- they

13     wouldn't be able to return to their former places of abode and their

14     homes.

15        Q.   And this refers to -- authorises the return of all emigrants and

16     displaced persons who were residing in the territory of what is now RSK

17     and who were forced to leave or voluntarily moved.  That's in Article 1.

18     Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   And so now who are the people who are authorised to return to

21     this RSK territory?

22        A.   Well, that is a reference to domicile Croatian population that

23     have been living together with Serbs for several centuries.  Or maybe

24     Serb or Hungarian or other refugees belonging to other ethnic groups.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 1104.

Page 389

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P38.  Thank you.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  The next is 65 ter 1035.  It's at tab 33.  And we

 4     want to look at item 134.

 5        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, do you recognise this decision?  Have you seen it

 6     before your testimony today?

 7        A.   Yes, I have seen it, and I do recognise this decision.

 8        Q.   And it's a decision on the return of refugees.

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   And in Article 2, it provides that the secretariat of the

11     interior would carry out a background check on people requesting to

12     return to verify whether the individual was directly or indirectly

13     involved with any enemy unit or nationalist and fascist party.  The

14     question here is:  What enemy units or nationalist or fascist parties

15     does this refer to?

16        A.   Well, this was probably reference to members of the ZNG and the

17     Croatian army and police.  And speaking of nationalist or fascist

18     parties, they definitely meant HDZ and other ... and other similar

19     parties operating in the territory of Croatia.

20        Q.   So under this legislation, someone who is a member of the HDZ

21     party would have to be identified, or would be identified within the

22     process of deciding who could come back?

23        A.   Precisely so.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I object.  I object.  Although the witness

Page 390

 1     already answered the question.  The witness said - it is line -- sorry,

 2     line 7, page 43, that it is "probably."  And I don't understand why to

 3     ask any interpretation and what -- how it was implemented if he -- he is

 4     not sure that -- it is -- he -- it is in the way as he explained, as he

 5     described.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  I accept that the witness said "probably," and --

 8     if I could perhaps ask a different question to deal with it.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   If you could tell us, Mr. Dzakula, just in general terms, whether

12     you know whether this -- how it would have impacted the ability of Croat

13     people from these regions to actually return to the RSK?  How would this

14     legislation have effected their ability to come back, if you know?

15        A.   Very much so.  Because many of them were either members of the

16     HDZ or they participated in the military formations.  So that on the

17     basis of such a decision, only a few Croats could return.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, we tender 65 ter 1035 perhaps for the

19     law library.  It's a decision in the RSK Gazette.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked with an L number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 1035 shall be

23     assigned Exhibit L8.  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is tab 38, 65 ter 314.

Page 391

 1        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, I'd like to -- what you see is a newspaper article

 2     in front of you.  This is from "Borba," September 1991.  Are you able to

 3     read it on the screen there?

 4        A.   Yes.  But just the big letters that says the borders depend on

 5     the strength and capital of SAO Vukovar Virovitica and Moslavina is the

 6     outpost of the Serbian Autonomous District, and so on, and only room for

 7     indigenous Croats in the SAO.

 8        Q.   We could try to make it bigger, but then you lose the document.

 9     Perhaps we could just take from the binder instead.  It's tab 34 --

10     excuse me, 38.  38.  I apologise it's hard for you to read.  It's a small

11     copy.  There are some -- there are some statements attributed to

12     Mr. Hadzic in this article and I'd like to ask you about them.  In the

13     second paragraph, the quote that is attributed to Mr. Hadzic is that:

14             "The capital of this district is Vukovar, not yet liberated but

15     we hope that this will happen soon."

16             Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes, I can see that.

18        Q.   Again, we've moved back to September of 1991.  Do you know if in

19     fact that's the case, that it was intended that Vukovar would be the

20     capital of the district SAO SBWS?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Moving a few lines down, there's a reference here to ministers

23     attending the -- from the SAO government attending a press conference

24     with Mr. Hadzic.  And that:

25             "The Croatian side was offered relocation as a solution.  Serbs

Page 392

 1     from non-Serbian lands would move to the SAO while the Croatian minority

 2     would move from the SAO to Croatia."

 3             Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 5        Q.   Now, a few minutes ago in that last presidential -- or, excuse

 6     me, the SFRY transcript we saw that Mr. Hadzic made a reference to people

 7     moving from Zagreb.  Do you recall that?

 8        A.   Yes, I recall that.

 9        Q.   So what we're seeing here in this article and these words, is

10     this consistent with Mr. Hadzic's view, based on what you've seen and

11     heard from him, about the place for Serbs and Croats within the district?

12        A.   Yes.  That corresponds with that.

13        Q.   Now, moving down a couple of paragraphs, there's another quote

14     attributed to Mr. Hadzic that says:

15             "We want not only the Serbs to return but also the indigenous

16     Croats."

17             What is that about, indigenous Croats?  And then he continues:

18             "We divide the Serbs and Croats into those that are indigenous

19     and newcomers."

20             He refers to the genocide suffered by the Serbs in the last war

21     and refers to the colonisers from western Herzegovina, Imotsko and parts

22     of Zagorje.  So the question is:  Who were the indigenous Croats that

23     Mr. Hadzic is referring to here?

24        A.   The indigenous Croats are the ones who lived there for centuries

25     together with the Serbs.  One lived in one villages and the others in the

Page 393

 1     other villages.  Sometimes they were even mixed together in the area of

 2     the Eastern Slavonia.

 3        Q.   Does that relate to the legislation we saw a little earlier on

 4     return of refugees and emigrants?

 5        A.   Yes.  One could say that it refers to that.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And then moving down, it's stated is that:

 7             "But many Croats became colonists after the war.  You don't think

 8     they were Ustashas too?"

 9             Mr. Hadzic says:

10             "Their parents were Ustashas ... I really do not want to enter

11     into discussion ... a large number of Croats are democratic people and

12     I'm afraid that there has been a misunderstanding.  I'm speaking about

13     the extremist Croats who started everything."

14             My question here, Mr. Dzakula, is, based on your own experiences

15     in Western Slavonia, was it -- in your view, is it -- would you support

16     moving populations linked to where people were living in the World War II

17     era?

18        A.   No.  Such an idea never occurred to me.

19        Q.   Do you think it's a practical or achievable objective?

20        A.   It's impossible.  It just means creating new conflict and

21     promoting hatred.

22        Q.   And then it continues.  He's asked:

23             "Are you talking about a crime that is carried in their genes?

24             And the answer is:

25             "No.  But it is a fact that some of the Croatian population has

Page 394

 1     something in its genes, a hatred of Serbs."


 3             Mr. Dzakula, again, I asked you a question yesterday about

 4     statements coming from high-level political people along these lines.

 5     What effect would this have on a listening population?

 6        A.   Well, it would provoke hatred and distrust and at the time such

 7     messages fell on fertile ground, and the distance between the Croats and

 8     the Serbs grew while the fear that they were feeling was also growing.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, Prosecution tenders 65 ter 314.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be assigned Exhibit P39.

12     Thank you.

13             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is a video.  65 ter -- sorry.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Before you go on, Mr. Stringer, if I might

15     intervene.  Going back to the last exchange with the witness, I notice

16     that Mr. Zivanovic didn't raise an objection about the possible

17     speculative nature of the answer that you were eliciting from him.

18             But, Mr. Witness, could you explain why you were of the opinion

19     that you expressed about the effect that this would have on a listening

20     population?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because if you point your

22     finger at certain people and say that they have hatred in their genes,

23     which I don't think is natural or could be proved, then you are

24     insulting, you are blaming, and you are instilling fear among the Serbs

25     from such people.  And among the Croats, you are making them feel that

Page 395

 1     they are genetically faulty and that they have an inborn hatred of

 2     another people.

 3             So such statements are certainly irritating, and they cause a

 4     rift between the peoples who used to live together.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  For the record, the next exhibit, the video, it's

 7     4872.1.  It's a video-clip from the bigger video 4872.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "[Voiceover]: Anchor 1:  'The issue of western borders of

10     Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem is open.'  This was said by the president

11     of the government of these regions, Goran Hadzic, and his talks with

12     journalists in the Belgrade international press centre.  On this

13     occasion, he reminded about the proposal of the Serb National Council of

14     these areas to establish this border if necessary with the help of moving

15     Croatian and Serb position population in the border area.

16             "Reporter:  The Serbian Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja,

17     and Western Srem is no longer in Croatia.  The issue of western borders

18     is open and the government of the Serbian Autonomous Region advocates a

19     democratic way of solving this and by respecting the will of the people.

20     Goran Hadzic, president of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, told this

21     to local and foreign journalists in the international press centre in

22     Belgrade.  Information minister, Ilija Petrovic, reminded the borders

23     according to the London contract are Ilova-Moslavina-Virovitica, and then

24     also on the proposal of the National Council that the Croatian state

25     assess whether one of the solutions would be moving the Serb and Croatian

Page 396

 1     population.  When asked by the journalists where the tanks have been

 2     summoned from Belgrade Goran Hadzic replied.

 3             "Goran Hadzic:  The tanks belong to the JNA and I can tell you

 4     that within the borders of the president Republic of Croatia, the JNA is

 5     if not in greater peril than equally periled as the Serb people who live

 6     there.  They are going there to liberate their colleagues, soldiers.

 7             "Reporter:  When asked several times about who was invited to

 8     return to these regions, Hadzic expressed the wish for return not only of

 9     Serbs but of native Croats as well.  Serb people did not endure genocide

10     by the native Croats but by the colonists Ante Pavelic brought to western

11     Herzegovina, Croatian Zagorje and Imotsko.  They were the first ones to

12     raise arms and mine Serb houses.  In order to establish a normal life, we

13     will have to present them with a return ticket.  Hadzic also said Serbia

14     should take care of women and children refugees and not of able-bodied

15     men.  Stating the data on the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

16     Goran Hadzic stressed that there were 150.000 inhabitants living there

17     and that its capital was Vukovar, which has not been liberated yet, but

18     this did not mean it would not be.  Goran Hadzic replied to the TAS

19     reporter that his government offered 20 imprisoned guards to Croatian

20     authorities in exchange for two missing Soviet journalists.

21     'Unfortunately,' Hadzic said, 'our government does not know where they

22     are.'"

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, the question here is there's a reference again to

25     the native Croats and to those who had been brought from -- or the Croats

Page 397

 1     from western Herzegovina, Imotski, those places.  Is this again a

 2     reference to the same Croats that we talked about earlier, those that

 3     came during the World War II era?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely so.

 5        Q.   And recognising that you're not from the Eastern Slavonia area

 6     yourself, but if you know, were there significant numbers of Croats

 7     living in the SBWS region during 1991/1992 who originated at some point

 8     from western Herzegovina?

 9        A.   Yes, there were many Croats who had come from western Herzegovina

10     to the area of Eastern Slavonia.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, we tender that exhibit, 4872.1.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This document shall be assigned Exhibit P40.

14     Thank you.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the next - excuse me - exhibit is

16     tab 37, 65 ter 5203.

17        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, the original language version of this is English.

18     You will have a translation in your language with you.  Have you -- did

19     you have a chance to look at this document before your testimony today?

20        A.   Yes.  During the proofing session, I had an opportunity to look

21     at this document.

22        Q.   Now, this is a cable from Mr. Nambiar with UNPROFOR in Belgrade

23     to Mr. Goulding, whom you've already told us about, dated the

24     9th of July, 1992.  Subject is meeting with Krajina authorities.  It

25     indicates that on that day, Mr. Nambiar had met with Mr. Hadzic as well

Page 398

 1     as yourself and a Mr. Avezavic [phoen], all from the RSK.

 2             First question is:  Do you remember the meeting that is referred

 3     to in this document?

 4        A.   Yes.  I remember the meeting with Mr. Nambiar.

 5        Q.   And in paragraph 3, here he writes about the introductory remarks

 6     made by President Hadzic stating that the RSK government intended to

 7     comply fully with the Vance Plan and Security Council Resolution 762.  He

 8     just returned from a visit to Sector East, was quite satisfied with the

 9     general situation, except for the continuing incidents of expulsions and

10     intimidation which he considered to be done by criminal elements.

11             First, Mr. Dzakula, the question of Sector East, what area does

12     that refer to?

13        A.   It refers to the former SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

14        Q.   And, based on you're being a vice-president of the RSK

15     government, do you agree that Mr. Hadzic intended to comply fully with

16     the Vance Plan, as is indicated here?

17        A.   He advocated it publicly but he was not willing to implement it

18     fully.

19        Q.   What parts was he not willing to implement fully?

20        A.   Well, the first thing was that he was unwilling to carry out the

21     demilitarisation which was a precondition for everything else because the

22     area of Eastern Slavonia is part of the RSK, and Krajina was never

23     demilitarised.

24             As for the return of the refugees there was also talk of

25     conditions not having been met for their return but the conditions were

Page 399

 1     not created as a realistic foundation for the refugees to be able to

 2     return where they had left.

 3        Q.   Now, paragraph 8 of this document, Mr. Hadzic indicates that he

 4     passed strict instructions on prosecution of criminals who engage in

 5     expulsions.  There are references to crimes -- incidents and expulsion

 6     against non-Serbs in the preceding paragraph, paragraph 7.

 7             The question is here during this period - this is July 1992 -

 8     were you and other members of the RSK leadership aware of continuing

 9     incidents of expulsions and coercion against non-Serbs?

10        A.   I heard such information mostly from the Croatian media when they

11     would show Croats leaving Eastern Slavonia and southern part of Dalmatia.

12     They confirmed that they were provoked, beaten, and mistreated.

13        Q.   But here you were actually being informed about it personally by

14     high-level UN representative; correct?

15        A.   Yes, precisely so.  In the meetings, they would sometimes tell us

16     that they were still security problems --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment.  Just one more moment,

18     Mr. Witness.

19             Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It was leading question.

21             MR. STRINGER:  I agree, it was leading, and I apologise.  If I

22     could rephrase it.

23        Q.   Mr. Dzakula --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

25             MR. STRINGER:

Page 400

 1        Q.   -- in meetings that you had with international representatives,

 2     did representatives of the international community raise the issue of

 3     crimes being committed against non-Serbs in the RSK?

 4        A.   Yes.  Talking with Mr. Nambiar and other UN representatives, I

 5     received such information.  We had a similar problem, that is to say, the

 6     mistreat of Serbs who were on the Croatian side.  So in this context, we

 7     talked about the suffering of both peoples.

 8        Q.   Then if you would move to paragraph 10.  There's a statement

 9     attributed to Mr. Hadzic here that they were prepared to accept all

10     non-Serbs who were willing to return to the UNPAs, but, at the same time,

11     it must be realised that "even if all non-Serbs were to return, the Serbs

12     would still remain in majority."

13             End of quote.  You mention that the return of non-Serbs to

14     Eastern Slavonia would be dependant on the return of Serbs to

15     Western Slavonia where a lot of burning and looting of Serb houses had

16     taken place.

17             The question here, Mr. Dzakula - if you know - from parts of the

18     SBWS, was the SBWS territory a majority-Serb territory to begin with?

19        A.   No.  Those who had military control were not Serbian by majority

20     at the very beginning.

21        Q.   And now in the next paragraph, you speak, and you're again -- now

22     you're talking about Sector West and the Serb villages which lie outside

23     the UNPAs?  Again, you've mentioned this before.  What was your objective

24     here in raising this issue with the UN representative?

25        A.   As Mr. Nambiar was the top UNPROFOR man in charge of Yugoslavia,

Page 401

 1     I considered it important to inform him about the problem in the Vance

 2     Plan which omitted one part of municipalities and towns with Serbian

 3     villages where war was ongoing and from which villages the Serbs had

 4     fled.  I said that it was very important to include them in the area,

 5     perhaps as pink zones, just so that security would be guaranteed to them

 6     and so that people could return to their homes.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders 5203.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P41.  Thank you.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Next exhibit is 5292.  65 ter 5292.

12        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, here is another one of the UNPROFOR documents from

13     Mr. Nambiar to Mr. Goulding with a copy to Special Envoy Cyrus Vance

14     dated 13 November 1992.  And it refers to a visit to Sector West and a

15     meeting that Mr. Nambiar had with you at your request and you spoke about

16     a visitation programme.  Do you remember this meeting?

17        A.   Yes, I remember the meeting.

18        Q.   Okay.  You go on to talk about the visitation programme and then

19     you said, according to this, that you -- you stressed that the Knin

20     authorities were not convinced about the judiciousness of your approach

21     and that you were coming under increasing pressure from them to talk a

22     tougher line.  Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I can see that.

24        Q.   And is that how it was?  Were you getting pressure from the Knin

25     authorities?

Page 402

 1        A.   Yes, I was pressured by the Knin authorities.

 2        Q.   Then you go on.  You ask for tight controls of the UNPA borders

 3     and the other sectors, convincing the Knin authorities to accept

 4     disarmament and demobilisation.  Were those your objectives at the time?

 5        A.   Yes, that was my goal and that was incorporated in the Vance Plan

 6     that we had adopted all together.

 7        Q.   And then in paragraph 2, you emphasise "the problem in

 8     Sector West and Sector East were interlinked."

 9             And that:

10             "The return of non-Serbs to the UNPAs could be taken up only in

11     conjunction with the return of Serbs to the Croatian area."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Now, was your view on that point shared by the Knin authorities,

15     as you referred to them?

16        A.   Well, the Knin authorities did not share this view relating to

17     the return because they kept saying that conditions were not in place yet

18     that would allow for the return to happen.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders 5292.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P42.  Thank you.

22             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is 5304.

23        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, this is another one of the UNPROFOR cables from --

24     this is going from Mr. Goulding to Mr. Nambiar.  The subject is:  Letter

25     from Dzakula.  This is dated the 4th of December, 1992.  Do you remember

Page 403

 1     sending a letter?  And your letter is attached to it.  Do you remember

 2     sending a letter to Mr. Goulding at about this time?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And what was your objective in sending this letter?  What was the

 5     reason?

 6        A.   Well, I wanted to draw their attention to the problems in

 7     Sector West and beyond.  I mean, beyond UNPA areas that did not enjoy any

 8     protection and that people there were facing a lot of problems.

 9        Q.   And we have your letter that's attached to it.  It's the third

10     page.  Begins on the third page, I believe.  And here you're describing

11     the situation that the Serb population was dealing with in some of these

12     parts of Western Slavonia.  Do you remember this?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  I do.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution tenders 5304.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P43.  Thank you.

17             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is 5968.

18        Q.   Do you recognise this document, Mr. Dzakula?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.

20        Q.   It's dated the 18th of February, 1993, in Daruvar.  And just a

21     few sentences, because we're reaching not only the end of the session but

22     also the end of my time with you.  Can you just give us in a few

23     sentences what this agreement was about.

24        A.   This agreement was signed in Doljani, Daruvar municipality

25     between representatives of the Serb and Croatian authorities, Daruvar,

Page 404

 1     Okucani, Novska, and other places.  In order to achieve the normalisation

 2     of relationships as an extension of the implementation of the

 3     Vance Plan --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

 5             MR. STRINGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, sorry if you could please just slow down again.

 7     Apologies.

 8        A.   I apologise to the interpreters and the others as well.  So that

 9     was a token of goodwill that would lead to the normalisation of relations

10     between representatives of Croat and Serb authorities in order to create

11     preconditions for the return of refugees.  It is impossible to launch the

12     process of return without representatives of the local authorities

13     previously discussing it and making preparations that were necessary, and

14     all of that was done under the supervision of the United Nations who were

15     to monitor the process and support it.

16        Q.   What was the geographical scope or the territory that was covered

17     by the Daruvar agreement?

18        A.   Well, it encompassed some five municipalities which means the

19     greater part of Western Slavonia, as indicated in the map.

20        Q.   Okay.  And we see your name on it.  You and others from

21     Western Slavonia then were involved in the negotiations that led to this?

22        A.   Yes.  The names you see there are the names of the signatories to

23     the Daruvar agreement.

24        Q.   And just to point out, Mr. President, on the original version, we

25     don't have a signed copy of this.

Page 405

 1             Mr. Dzakula, are you in a position to say whether, in fact, the

 2     agreement was signed by the people whose names appear on the top of this?

 3        A.   Yes.  All of these people named here signed the agreement.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Prosecution tenders 5968.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P44.  Thank you.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is 5362, tab 44.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, this is another UNPROFOR document.  It's being sent

10     from an UNPROFOR official named Wahlgren to Mr. Kofi Annan at the UN in

11     New York with a copy to Mr. Vance.  And it's attaching correspondence.

12     It's actually attaching one of the other UNPROFOR cables.  And it's

13     attaching actually notes of a session, the parliamentary session of the

14     RSK in Okucani on the 20th of April, 1993.  Now, have you had a chance to

15     look at this document before your testimony today?

16        A.   Yes, I have seen this document while I was preparing to give

17     testimony.

18        Q.   And in order to make things go faster, I've got a hard copy here,

19     and if I could perhaps just, with the usher's assistance, pass it over to

20     you, it will be faster to move through because the clock is ticking.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I just like to -- to let know the

23     Trial Chamber that we haven't received any proofing note about the

24     Prosecution meeting with this witness, and he mentioned at two -- two --

25     two or three times that he had a look at some documents during the

Page 406

 1     proofings.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Well, I -- first of all, the subject matter of the

 4     Daruvar agreement is the -- covered by proofing notes.  We're checking

 5     our proofing notes now.  It's our recollection that this was addressed,

 6     not only with the witness but the information was passed across to the

 7     Defence.  But I'd have to look at the proofing note from a few months ago

 8     to confirm that.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But Mr. Zivanovic says he didn't receive any

11     proofing notes.  Did you --

12             MR. STRINGER:  No, Mr. Zivanovic has received two extensive

13     proofing notes about some of the -- the -- the proofing that's taken

14     place.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, we didn't receive any.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

18             MR. STRINGER:  I think --

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could I suggest you discuss this during the break

20     and come back to us with an answer whether yes or no.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, sure.  Just -- well, we'll discuss it during

22     the break.  Maybe before the break what I can do is ask the witness some

23     questions about the topic without referring to this specific document

24     or ... or are we to just move on?

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which document are we talking about here?

Page 407

 1             MR. STRINGER:  This is the document with the -- the UNPROFOR

 2     document attaching the minutes of the Okucani meeting.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  But am I -- why should you ask the witness

 4     about this document without going into it?  I don't --

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Well, I -- if -- if -- maybe I misunderstand

 6     counsel.  I don't know -- he saying he doesn't have a proofing note.  I

 7     don't know if he is saying that he doesn't know if this is an issue

 8     that's part of the direct examination.  Maybe I don't understand.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you -- could you remind me of the document

10     number, Mr. Stringer, before we get an answer from Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. STRINGER:  It's 5362.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  5362.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Which is tab --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's okay.

15             MR. STRINGER:  -- 44.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  3-6-2.  Okay.  [Microphone not activated] I'm

17     sorry.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a problem with the use of this

19     document now?

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.  No, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  But, in the meantime, I see that it is

22     that time.  We will come back to this after the break.

23             What is your prognosis, Mr. Stringer, for the end of your direct?

24             MR. STRINGER:  We are at the very end.  We have this document,

25     which we've just currently got on the screen, and then two more.  And


Page 408

 1     they'll both be fast, I think within ten minutes or so after the break.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 3             So, Mr. Dzakula, we go for the break now, and we will be back --

 4     back at 12.45.  The usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             I'd just like to clarify my previous address to the Chamber as to

13     proofing notes of the Prosecution.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mm-hm.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Mr. Stringer provided me two copies of two

16     proofing notes.  They were disclosed to the Chamber but -- to -- to the

17     Defence - sorry - on 24th July and 17 and 20 September.  However, it was

18     disclosed not as a separate document but in disclosure batch, containing

19     many documents.

20             And I recall on the paragraph 13 of your order where you said

21     that proofing notes shall be distributed to the Trial Chamber, the

22     Registry, and the opposing party as soon as possible after the conclusion

23     of the proofing session.  In my understanding, it has to be done as a

24     separate document not as part of a disclosure batch.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

Page 409

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President - excuse me - just to clarify,

 2     there are two proofing notes of two meetings that occurred last July and

 3     then again last September and both of those were disclosed on the

 4     28th of September.  They were disclosed in the batch.  This is all before

 5     the time that we had the Chamber's guide-line on the specific requirement

 6     or provision on the proofing notes.  I regret that it was not -- that the

 7     Defence didn't find it after it was disclosed last September, and

 8     obviously now the procedure on proofing note disclosure will be carried

 9     out under the -- under the guide-line.

10             And so our apologies to that.  We didn't bring the prior practice

11     on this particular witness into compliance with the guide-lines that were

12     issued a few weeks ago.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we can consider this as a start of the trial

14     incident.

15             MR. STRINGER:  I would like if it will be considered that way and

16     we will certainly modify the practice.

17             There are no more proofing notes that are from a more recent time

18     than last September.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think there was a scheduling issue as well.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  Just to raise the issue of potential timing

21     with the short court week next week, counsel has indicated that they plan

22     to take their full six hours or so with the cross-examination of this

23     witness, and that they will be seeking five hours for the

24     cross-examination of the witness who follows, and that's -- I think --

25     it's beyond sort of the normal two-hour but obviously the Defence can

Page 410

 1     address the Chamber in that.  I should say the normal doubling of the

 2     time taken on direct.

 3             But, in any event, if we take six hours for this witness, and

 4     possibly five for the one that follows, we're now into about 11 court

 5     hours when we've got eight court hours available or scheduled next week,

 6     Monday, Tuesday, and then the one hour or so that remains today.

 7             So just to raise the possibility and to suggest perhaps if the

 8     Court might be inclined to take extended session next week if it would

 9     enable us to get this witness -- the next witness, I should say, through

10     his direct and his cross-examination so that he doesn't then have to go

11     home and he is still under oath and gone for ten days or so and he would

12     have to come back, which we would suggest is not the preferable practice.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's first hear from Mr. Zivanovic about his

14     request to have -- let's say -- yeah, double -- almost double the normal

15     time for cross-examination for this witness.

16             Mr. Zivanovic.  You asked for five hours for cross.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

18             The witness statement, amalgamated witness statement of this

19     witness, is very voluminous.  It addressed many issues and many

20     individuals and many events, and also it involves many documents, many

21     documents that we should address.  And I think that five hours will be

22     appropriate time for cross-examination of this witness.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can you give us an indication about the number of

24     documents you will -- do you -- do you know?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Not right now, but ...

Page 411

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Not right now.  Okay.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I could do it in due course.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's just try to figure this out.

 4             So we -- we still have, for cross-examination now, we have six

 5     hours.  One hour and a half for your direct of the next witness,

 6     Mr. Stringer?

 7             MR. STRINGER:  [Microphone not activated] Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Seven and a half, and five.  Twelve ...

 9             The problem with extending sitting, the extending sittings, is we

10     would -- we would need more than one.  What, two, three, four?

11             MR. STRINGER:  As it currently stands, if the Defence uses their

12     full six hours to cross-examine Mr. Dzakula, then that takes us into

13     Tuesday really right there, because four hours for Monday, an hour or so

14     today, and then into Tuesday.  Really, it's --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I really wonder.  Because the problem with

16     extended sitting for the moment is if we would have to sit full days,

17     let's say, to get there, is that members of the Bench are engaged in --

18     in -- in deliberations and need that time as well, because there are

19     deadlines and whatnot.  So I think that's practically impossible.

20             If with this witness we go into Tuesday, by all means, I would

21     rather -- I would rather suggest not to call this witness for Tuesday

22     then.  And -- and bring him over to next week.

23             MR. STRINGER:  That's certainly acceptable to the Prosecution.  I

24     think we need to get the process going of cancelling his flight and

25     whatnot.  But if the Chamber is -- wants to take the witness on the

Page 412

 1     following Monday, then that's how we'll do the scheduling.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to make sure, I think we are sitting on

 3     Monday in the afternoon.  Am I right?  Anybody has an agenda at hand?

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, no.  I mean the -- the mean the next -- the

 6     next Monday, the 29th.  Yeah.  That's in the afternoon; right?  No?

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we're not sitting that Monday.  We're sitting

 9     on Tuesday.  The first time then is on Tuesday in the afternoon.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, we're looking at the court schedule

11     that's on the TribuNet, and, yeah, they have this case, Hadzic, in this

12     Courtroom, I, on Monday and Tuesday next week, the 22nd and 23rd, from

13     9.00 --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, no, the week after, I mean.  The week you

15     should bring -- yeah, Mr. Savic then.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  We will -- whichever -- if it's Monday or

17     Tuesday, we'll have Mr. Savic here ready to go first thing.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And, finally, Mr. Zivanovic, the Trial Chamber

22     will grant your request for three hours for -- for six, no, five hours,

23     I'm sorry.  Five hours for cross-examination of that witness.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the usher may bring the witness into the


Page 413

 1     courtroom, please.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, before we continue, I want to go back to just one

 6     bit of your testimony from earlier today to ask for a clarification.

 7             I'm looking at page 32 of today's transcript, line 13, and I'll

 8     just read this to you.  Mr. Dzakula, you testified that -- and this was

 9     late April or early May 1992:

10             "Mr. Hadzic invited me to talk with him.  I attended a government

11     session, and then I came to his office.  He was accompanied by Arkan, who

12     was well known as a warrior.  He just greeted me briefly and asked me the

13     following, Brother Veljko, is it true that you advocate co-existence with

14     the Croats?"

15             Mr. Dzakula, my question is if you could just clarify who was it

16     that asked you that question, whether you -- or do you advocate

17     co-existence.  Was it Mr. Hadzic?  Because it's a little bit ambiguous in

18     the record.  Did Mr. Hadzic ask you the question or was it Arkan that

19     asked you that question?

20        A.   Mr. Goran Hadzic asked me that.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, if we could come back to the document we were talking

22     about before the break.  This is 65 ter 3562, attached to this the

23     UNPROFOR people are sending the minutes or the session of the RSK in

24     Okucani on the 20th of April, 1993.  And you have it there.  Your --

25     in -- in your language --

Page 414

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   -- and just I'd like to ask a couple of questions about this.

 3     First of all, were you present at this session of the RSK parliament in

 4     Okucani?

 5        A.   That was the Assembly of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I was

 6     present both as the deputy prime minister and as a deputy in the

 7     parliament, a deputy in the assembly, the People's Assembly of the

 8     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 9        Q.   And just at the beginning of this, it indicates that several

10     Serbian visitors from all over former Yugoslavia were in attendance.  Do

11     you see that?

12        A.   Yes, I can see that.

13        Q.   Okay.  And it indicates here that Mr. Hadzic was introduced as

14     the president of the RSK.

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   I want to draw your attention, please, to item 4.  In the second

17     paragraph of item 4 says:

18             "Two prominent Serbian leaders from Western Slavonia, namely

19     Mr. Dzakula and the formed information minister of RSK, Mr. Ecimovic were

20     relieved of all their political functions because of their signing of

21     agreement with the Croats (the Daruvar agreement of 18 February 1993).

22     They immediately stormed out of the parliament."

23             Mr. Dzakula, the first question is:  Is that a correct statement?

24     Were you relieved of your function at the time; and, secondly, is it

25     related to the Daruvar agreement?

Page 415

 1        A.   We were chased out of the parliament session of the Assembly of

 2     Republic of Serbian Krajina without an opportunity to say anything.  We

 3     were just told that we could not attend any longer and that we had no

 4     rights in the sense of being actively engaged in politics, in any manner

 5     whatsoever.

 6        Q.   And why is that?  Why were you told you couldn't attend any

 7     longer and that you wouldn't be actively engaged in politics anymore?

 8        A.   We were told that because we had signed the Daruvar agreement

 9     which they declared to be a traitorist act because there could be no

10     negotiations or signing of any documents with the Croats, and that was

11     the main objection due to which they prohibited us any further activity.

12        Q.   Now, moving down three paragraphs from there, it says here that:

13             "A delegate from Daruvar directed a query to Mr. Paspalj

14     regarding some 200.000 Deutschemarks allegedly given to Mr. Dzakula and

15     his collaborators for signing the Daruvar agreement.  He branded Dzakula

16     as a traitor."

17             Mr. Dzakula, are you aware, or did you become aware of

18     allegations that you had received money for signing the Daruvar

19     agreement?

20        A.   I heard that story later on, though I was present at the assembly

21     and no such questions were asked, but that we were branded traitors and I

22     personally was branded a traitor.  That was happening all the time.

23        Q.   Is it true that you -- is the allegation here correct?  Is it

24     true when they said you received 200.000 Deutschemarks for this?

25        A.   No, it has nothing to do with the truth.  It's just a silly thing

Page 416

 1     to say.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Prosecution tenders 5362, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P45.  Thank you.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit, Your Honour, is from tab 45.

 6     65 ter 1621.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, do you recognise this document?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what is this?

10        A.   It's a degree -- decree on disbanding the regional council of the

11     Serbian region of Western Slavonia signed by the president of the

12     republic, Goran Hadzic.

13        Q.   This is dated the 28th of April, 1993.  Were you aware of this at

14     or about the time it happened?  Were you aware of this decree?

15        A.   Yes, I was aware of the decree of our removal and disbanding of

16     the council and the appointment of new people.

17        Q.   Just in a couple of sentences, please, what was the regional

18     council that's referred to here and why was it disbanded, if you know?

19        A.   The regional council according to the statute when the amendments

20     were adopted it was no longer the SAO Western Slavonia.  Autonomy was no

21     longer stressed because there was no necessity for us to be autonomous

22     within a republic but we were just the Serbian region.  We had our

23     assembly and the regional council was like a mini government of

24     Western Slavonia.  As we made decisions and had activities relating to

25     demilitarisation and normalisation of relations it was too irritating for

Page 417

 1     the authorities in Knin.  They had a grudge against that.  And as the

 2     Assembly of Western Slavonia also made a decision that we were entitled

 3     to negotiate and to sign documents and give all documents that we signed

 4     for verification to the assembly, they believed that that assembly and

 5     regional council had to be disbanded because they closely co-operated

 6     with us and implemented our policy.  And so they appointed new people who

 7     then pursued completely different policy which was identical to the

 8     policy of the then political and military leadership of the Republic of

 9     Serbian Krajina.

10        Q.   Were there particular -- any particular actions or agreements

11     which this regional council entered into which led to its being disbanded

12     here?

13        A.   Well, the signatories to the Daruvar agreement were also members

14     of the regional council and that was sufficient for the president of the

15     republic and the prime minister to make such a decision.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders 1621 into

17     evidence.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P46.  Thank you.

20             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit is 65 ter 1842.  It is tab 47.

21        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, can you read this one?  Can you see this document?

22        A.   Yes, I can see the document.

23        Q.   It's in Glina, the 18th of October, 1993.  It's the county court

24     trial chamber passing a decision to extend for the accused

25     Veljko Dzakula, Dusan Ecimovic and Mladen Kulic for another 30 days.

Page 418

 1     What is this about?  Can you tell the Chamber what this document relates

 2     to?

 3        A.   This is one in a series of documents which we received in the

 4     district prison in Glina from the district court when we were arrested on

 5     21st September 1993 because of the signing of the Daruvar agreement and

 6     with the suspicion that we had been spying and working for the Croatian

 7     side and that I and my colleagues were working on the cessation of a

 8     portion of the RSK which would then be joined to Croatia.  This was one

 9     of the decisions to keep us in custody, to extend it, while the

10     proceedings were going on.

11        Q.   And now moving to page 2 of the English, in the -- under the

12     heading of the explanation, it says -- well, according to the

13     Criminal Code, perpetrators of the crime of endangering territorial

14     integration, the highest sentence can be passed.

15             Can you tell the Chamber specifically whether this is the crime

16     that you were charged for and what the potential consequences were of

17     this?

18        A.   Well, for the crime that I was charged with, a death sentence was

19     envisaged, and this is why it was binding.  I'm not sure how legally this

20     was to be termed but I was to kept in custody as long as the

21     investigation was not completed.  So the court was obliged to do that.

22        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber how long in total you were held in

23     custody under these charges?

24        A.   Well, I was in prison on two occasions for a total of about 110

25     days.

Page 419

 1        Q.   What became of these charges against you?  What was the outcome

 2     of this case?

 3        A.   I was released by the investigating judge, Nikola Suznjevic, who

 4     believed that there was no need for me to be in custody.  He passed a

 5     decision that I had to remain in the territory of the RSK and that the

 6     investigation would be continued.  He told me himself that he did not see

 7     any reason for holding me in custody, that he was under pressure to do

 8     that, that he would release me from prison and that he would then resign

 9     from his position and that there was certainly the position that both of

10     us would be killed because they saw me as a great enemy and they saw him

11     as someone who was supporting me in this.

12        Q.   Now, to your knowledge, did this investigation ever result in an

13     indictment or criminal charges against you under the RSK system from this

14     investigation?

15        A.   The investigation was never completed.

16        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, thank you.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, we've -- that completes the

18     Prosecution examination-in-chief.

19             May I tender 1842, however, before I forget.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit P47.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Cross-examination.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:


Page 420

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dzakula.  My name is

 2     Zoran Zivanovic, and in this case, I am the Defence counsel of

 3     Goran Hadzic.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.  I apologise, as I was warned that I speak

 5     quickly, I now follow the interpretation on the screen, and when I see

 6     that it is finished, I will then answer to your questions so I wouldn't

 7     be warned again.  But I'm sure they will admonish me again, because I'm

 8     certain I will forget this.

 9        Q.   I will also take up your suggestion and it will be useful as we

10     both speak the same language.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move to the private session, please.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we go into private session, please.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 421

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, you were born in Croatia.

14        A.   That is correct.

15        Q.   And your family was living there before the Second World War.

16        A.   Yes, before the Second World War, my entire family lived there.

17        Q.   Based on the information that I mentioned in private session, I

18     was able to discern that your parents, while they were children, were

19     incarcerated in an Ustasha camp during the Second World War; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.  Both my parents were detained in Ustasha camps in the year

22     1942, the so-called Jasenovac camps.

23        Q.   I also saw that their families were all killed during

24     World War II; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.


Page 422

 1        Q.   Can you tell me, please, up until 1991, you used to live and work

 2     in Croatia; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 4        Q.   You knew a lot of Serbs who lived in Croatia.

 5        A.   Yes, I did.

 6        Q.   Were there families, like yours, experienced similar family

 7     suffer and trauma during World War II?

 8        A.   Yes, they experienced similar things and traumatic events during

 9     the Second World War.

10        Q.   Did that have any influence on the political affiliations of

11     Serbs in Croatia and which led them not to accept the cessation of

12     Croatia from Yugoslavia in 1990/1991?

13        A.   Yes, it did.

14        Q.   Would you agree with me that that had an impact on their

15     orientation in that at the first multi-party elections they voted for the

16     Communist party of Croatia and the Party of Democratic Changes?

17        A.   Yes, I agree with that statement.

18        Q.   It also had some effects later when the League of Communists of

19     Croatia-Party of Democratic Changes failed them in their expectations

20     and, consequently, they joined the Serbian Democratic Party?

21        A.   Yes.  That had an impact on their decision to join the Serbian

22     Democratic Party.

23        Q.   Yesterday, you described various forms of discrimination against

24     Serbs in Croatia in 1991.  That's on page 256, but you cannot see it.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I refer to the page 256, lines 18 and 19.


Page 423

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I spoke about various forms of

 2     discrimination against Serbs.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You didn't provide any details in that respect.  However, you

 5     spoke extensively about that --

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move again into private session, please.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we go into private session, please.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 424











11 Pages 424-425 redacted. Private session.
















Page 426

 1                           [Open session] 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Among other things, you also spoke about barricades.  Can you

 7     tell us who actually set up these barricades in these areas; and what was

 8     the reason underlying such a move?

 9        A.   The barricades were erected in Knin in order to prevent the new

10     Croatian authorities from sending the police in and changing its ethnic

11     composition.  In other parts, such as Banja and Kordun, Western Slavonia,

12     people erected barricades because of fear to avoid history repeating

13     itself.  Because, at the time, the Croatian army, who called themselves

14     Ustashas, encircled those villages and slaughtered the population.  They

15     were so terrified that they wanted to avoid any form of repetition of

16     those events, and this was an initiative that came from elderly people

17     who lived in Serb-majority villages.

18        Q.   Mr. Dzakula, tell me, what was the reaction, although yesterday

19     this was an issue that was tackled.  What was the reaction to the

20     introduction of a chequered flag as a symbol of the Croatian police and

21     army and in general?

22        A.   The reaction was ferocious by the Serbs initially when the flag

23     with the star was replaced by the chequered flag and when the insignia of

24     the army of the police were also altered, and they said this was

25     reminding them of the independent state of Croatia.  The star was a

Page 427

 1     common symbol of their struggle against fascism and they thought that the

 2     reintroduction of this symbol was something that was going to divide them

 3     again, and Serbs found it really very difficult to accept that.

 4        Q.   The distribution of these squares in the, chequered flag, did

 5     that have any significance at all?

 6        A.   Yes, it did.  During the independent state of Croatia, this

 7     chequered flag started with a white square which is a symbol of the

 8     Ustasha.  And the first proposal for the Croatian coat of arms was

 9     identical to that, but then they gave up on that idea and they accepted

10     that the first square would be red, in order to avoid any comparisons

11     with the -- the Ustasha symbols.

12        Q.   Yesterday, you spoke about one part of the programme of the

13     Serbian Democratic Party in Croatia that relates to the cultural and

14     political autonomy of Serbs.  Could you please give us some more details

15     as to what exactly that relates to?

16        A.   We wanted to preserve our identity in Croatia, including our

17     script and our culture and everything that is a characteristic of a

18     nation.  Because we saw that, due to constitutional changes, the Cyrillic

19     script was not equal to the Latin script and we believed that the SDS,

20     through their activities, should include these issues as a mode of

21     protection for us and the protection of our characteristics that makes us

22     a nation.

23        Q.   Apart from the Cyrillic script, was there anything else that

24     could be described as part of the cultural and political autonomy?

25        A.   Well, the language, by all means.

Page 428

 1        Q.   I have information that you were a member of a delegation in

 2     1991, sometime in March of that year.  I'm talking about a delegation of

 3     Serbs from Croatia who went to have talks with Franjo Tudjman, the

 4     then-president of Croatia.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us what were the topics of the talks.

 7        A.   This was after the events in Pakrac on the 2nd of March, when

 8     there was an armed action between the active-duty policemen and the

 9     reserve police forces and when around 40 reserve policemen who were Serbs

10     by ethnicity were arrested.  The regional board of the SDS took the

11     decision that a delegation comprising five men - including Goran Hadzic,

12     Ilija Asic [phoen], Dusan Ecimovic, myself, and, at the moment, I cannot

13     remember who was the fifth member - was to go and meet with the president

14     of the Republic of Croatia for talks about the incidents that had taken

15     place so that these men would be released from prison, and we discussed

16     particularly the cultural autonomy, the safety of all citizens, calming

17     the situation down, and these were the topics of our talks.

18        Q.   Was the fifth member of the delegation perhaps Vojislav Vukcevic?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I haven't seen him for a long time, and I

20     have already forgotten them.

21        Q.   At the time, did your delegation make any requests relating to

22     cultural autonomy, political autonomy, or any other requests, apart from

23     the requests that the arrested people be released?

24        A.   Yes.  On our behalf, the requests were submitted by

25     Mr. Vojislav Vukcevic.

Page 429

 1        Q.   Can you perhaps remember now what all this related to?

 2        A.   I think that it had to do with the script and the language, but

 3     as for other details, I know that we were concerned about the incidents.

 4     But we had a whole list of everything that we wanted.

 5        Q.   Do you remember whether there was any talk about the chequered

 6     flag?

 7        A.   Yes, we did discuss that too.

 8        Q.   Was there any talk about the impossibility of receiving the

 9     Cyrillic press from Serbia?

10        A.   Yes, that was also on the agenda.

11        Q.   As -- judging by the information I have, I think you were

12     received really properly in Zagreb.  Not only you, but the Serb

13     delegation that arrived there.

14        A.   Yes.  We were received, because I think that the state leadership

15     was concerned about the situation which had arisen at that time.  And at

16     least at that point they showed the will to listen to us and to see what

17     could be done.

18        Q.   When you say that the state leadership was concerned about the

19     situation at that time, do you have in mind the incident in Pakrac which

20     happened immediately before the meeting?  Or do you have something else

21     in mind?

22        A.   Yes, I'm speaking precisely about that incident which happened in

23     Pakrac because that was the first armed conflict in the territory of the

24     Republic of Croatia.  It was unexpected and surprising.

25        Q.   I'm sorry, just for the sake of the precision of the transcript I

Page 430

 1     have the impression that you -- yes, yes, it has been corrected.  Because

 2     the 1st Military District was mentioned but now it has been removed.

 3             Of all the requests which were examined at the time and which had

 4     been submitted by the Serbian delegation can you remember whether any of

 5     the requests were adopted?

 6        A.   These men were released.  And, as for the rest, nothing was

 7     resolved.

 8        Q.   Did the then-President Tudjman immediately tell you that those

 9     requests could not be met or did he perhaps leave a door open for

10     negotiations and talks concerning those issues?

11        A.   He did not reject our requests because he dwelled for a long time

12     on the history of Serbs and Croats living in the area, and he left ample

13     room for further talks.

14        Q.   The meeting was quite used in the Croatian media.  As far as I

15     know, there were reports about it on the TV and in other media.  Would

16     you agree with that?

17        A.   Yes.  It was big news.  Many people followed it carefully and

18     listened to what was said.

19        Q.   Please tell me what was the impact of the meeting and the media

20     reports on the event on the Serbs in Croatia?  What was the impression

21     they had, at least the ones you know?

22        A.   Some of them condemned that, the fact that we went to talk to the

23     president of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman.  On the other hand,

24     one part of Serbs supported that because they believed it was very

25     important to have a dialogue and to seek for solutions as part of this

Page 431

 1     dialogue.

 2        Q.   When you say that one part of the Serbs opposed such relations or

 3     would not attend to that kind of negotiations, can you tell us what the

 4     reasons were?  What were the reasons that the people usually mentioned to

 5     you?

 6        A.   Well, people were not willing to enter a dialogue.  When they

 7     disagreed with someone, the majority would then be of the opinion that

 8     there would be no talks and no discussion with that other side.  That was

 9     something that was common to everyone in the area.  Because we did not

10     know how to talk.  We did not have this sort of experience.

11        Q.   And can you tell us what was the position that the Croats had to

12     these contacts and talks?  Was there a similar division like the one that

13     existed among the Serbs or was it somewhat different among them?

14        A.   The Croats supported the talks and the dialogue to a greater

15     extent because they saw that from a different angle.  They believed that

16     the fact that we were talking with the leadership of the Republic of

17     Croatia, we recognised the leadership as legitimate in one way and that

18     we were trying to find a resolution based on that, because they could see

19     there was also another faction which refused any sort of talks.

20        Q.   Please, tell me, at the time when you already went to these

21     talks, were there already incidents of Serbs moving out of Croatia or

22     Croats moving out of specific areas where the Serbs were the majority

23     population?  Did -- had that process already begun?

24        A.   The process of the moving out of the Serbs had begun.  I think it

25     was in the area between Slavonski Brod, Osijek, and Djakovo.  There were

Page 432

 1     some villages that extended as a sort of chain between Western and

 2     Eastern Slavonia, and I heard that people, that is to say, Serbs, were

 3     moving out of those villages.

 4        Q.   Those were practically the first months of the year 1991.

 5        A.   Well, it was as early as in April or May 1991.

 6        Q.   As those villages are close to Western Slavonia and the place

 7     where you lived, were you aware why these people were moving out of those

 8     particular villages?

 9        A.   I was told that they were subjected to provocations, insults and

10     threats, and that they wanted to preserve their property, their lives,

11     and that, out of fear, they abandoned the area.

12        Q.   Does that mean that at the time their property and their lives

13     were already threatened?

14        A.   Yes, those were the beginnings, and that was the direction to

15     which events were going.

16        Q.   Let me ask you something else now, please, connected to what you

17     just told us now.  When people feel some sort of threat, they usually

18     address the police and seek protection.  Did they address the police,

19     asking them to protect them from these forms of protection

20     [as interpreted]?  I mean the regular police which existed in Croatia at

21     the time.

22        A.   I believe they did.  Judging by my later experience where, in the

23     municipality of Pozega, people also complained about receiving threats

24     during the months of June and July, or perhaps somewhat earlier than

25     that, the police would come when those who made the provocations were

Page 433

 1     leaving or when they had left a specific house so they never found them.

 2        Q.   And could the victims themselves identify those who had attacked

 3     them and inform the police, accordingly?

 4        A.   It was difficult to identify the attackers because usually they

 5     had some sort of balaclavas on their heads and they would visit people

 6     late at night.

 7        Q.   Are you aware if, at that time, someone from this area was held

 8     responsible for such attacks against the Serbs living in villages that

 9     you talked about just now?

10        A.   No, I'm not aware of anything like that.

11        Q.   And are you aware -- or, rather, did you have some communication

12     with the police?  Since you were one of the leaders of the

13     Serbian Democratic Party, did you communicate with the then-Croatian

14     police; and did you point out to them that this sort of the situation was

15     arising in their territory?

16        A.   Yes, I did point out to everything that I had heard, that I knew,

17     and that was reported to me.

18        Q.   And there were many incidents like that.

19        A.   Yes, quite a few.  And there were also provocations and attacks

20     against the Croatian households; I'm talking about the territory of the

21     Pakrac municipality.  So that we began to deal with the reconciliation

22     process.  We were trying to alleviate the consequences, because then

23     revenge started in Serbian villages against some Croatian families.

24        Q.   When you say revenge or revanchism, what I understood you to

25     mean, was that attacks against the Serbs in certain villages between the

Page 434

 1     Eastern and Western Slavonia happened somewhere else as opposed to the

 2     attacks which were carried out in Pakrac and which were directed against

 3     the Croatian population.  So it did not happen in the same places, that

 4     both Serbs and Croats were attacked in same places, but, rather, in some

 5     places Serbs were under attack and in others it was the Croats.  Did I

 6     understand you properly?

 7        A.   Yes, you did.  You understood me properly.  In the first villages

 8     that you just mentioned the Serbs were in the minority, and they were

 9     subjected to greater provocations, and in other cases the Croats were the

10     minority.

11        Q.   Just tell me this as well.  Did any of your associates someone

12     from the local authorities have the responsibility to deal with these

13     issues, these provocations which occurred, to co-ordinate with the

14     police, and inform them about this?  I suppose that you were not in

15     charge of that, that it wasn't within your remit and there was somebody

16     else who was supposed to do that as part of their work?

17        A.   Well, if you mean -- in my community, the local authorities did

18     that because the president of the Executive Council was a Serb, and the

19     president of the municipal assembly was a half-Serb and half-Croat.  So

20     it was easier to maintain this sort of dialogue.  At the time the new

21     police had arrived, and they attempted to calm down the situation.  I'm

22     talking about 1991, after April and May.

23             In other municipalities, our activists, the activists of the SDS,

24     primarily the leaders, went to have talks or established contacts.

25        Q.   I suppose that they also received similar answers from the

Page 435

 1     police, just like you, when you contacted them.

 2        A.   Yes.  They faired similarly or in an almost identical way.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I complete for today my cross.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             Mr. Witness, we'll adjourn for the day, and we'll adjourn for the

 6     weekend, so you will be back, we hope, on Monday morning, 9.00, the same

 7     courtroom.

 8             I must remind you that you are still on your oath and that you

 9     cannot discuss your testimony with anybody, and you can't speak with any

10     of the parties.

11             Thank you very much.  You may now leave the courtroom.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have understood,

13     Your Honours.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 22 day of October,

18                           2012, at 9.00 a.m.