Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1730

 1                           Tuesday, 27 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             May we have the -- could you call the case, please,

 9     Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

11             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

12             Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

15     please.

16             MS. DENNEHY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  My name is

17     Muireann Dennehy on behalf of the Prosecution, along with my colleague

18     Rachel Friedman, and the Case Manager, Thomas Laugel, with our intern

19     Matija Saftic.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

23     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You have a witness for us.

25             MS. DENNEHY:  I do, yes, Your Honours.

Page 1731

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  095?

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  No, I believe it's GH-119.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No protective measures?

 4             MS. DENNEHY:  No, there are no protective measures in place for

 5     this witness.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me in a

 9     language you understand?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you please give us your name,

12     date of birth, and ethnicity.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Milan Conjar.  I was

14     born on the 12th of October, 1963.  And I am of Croatian ethnicity.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Conjar, you are about to make the solemn declaration, by

17     which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  So I need to tell

18     you that you are exposing yourself to the -- the penalty of perjury

19     should you give untruthful or misleading information to the Tribunal.

20             Could you please read the solemn declaration now.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  MILAN CONJAR

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You may be seated.


Page 1732

 1             Ms. Dennehy, your witness.

 2             MS. DENNEHY: [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Your Honour.

 3     Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Dennehy:

 5        Q.   Mr. Conjar, are you able to hear me?

 6        A.   I can hear you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Conjar, do you recall giving a statement to the investigators

 8     of the Tribunal in 1996?

 9        A.   I do.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  Turning to tab 2, can I please ask that the English

11     version of 65 ter number 2238.1 be shown.  This is dated 9 February 1996.

12        Q.   Mr. Conjar, do you recognise the document on the screen in front

13     of you to be the statement that you gave?

14        A.   Yes, because I can see my signature at the bottom of the page.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And that was my next question, Mr. Conjar.  So

16     looking at the bottom of the first page, can you please confirm again

17     that you recognise the signature in the bottom left-hand corner?

18        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

19        Q.   And before coming here today, did you have an opportunity to

20     review a translation of this statement in your own language?

21        A.   You mean immediately prior to coming to The Hague?

22        Q.   Yes, or while you were in The Hague, and prior to coming to court

23     this morning.

24        A.   Yes, I had an opportunity to have a good look at my statement, at

25     the entire statement.

Page 1733

 1        Q.   And if I were to ask you the same questions as you were asked in

 2     1996, would you give the same answers?

 3        A.   I certainly would.  I probably would give the same answers.

 4        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm

 5     the truthfulness and the accuracy of the statement?

 6        A.   I stand by the statement that I gave on that day, on the 9th of

 7     February.

 8             MS. DENNEHY:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders the statement

 9     as 65 ter 2238.1, and asks that it be entered into evidence.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object because the witness said that he

12     would probably give the same answers.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

14             MS. DENNEHY:

15        Q.   Mr. Conjar, is there anything that you would like to change about

16     this statement?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And so if I can ask you again:  Would you give the same answers

19     as you gave in 1996, when you met the investigators of the Tribunal?

20        A.   Perhaps you're a bit confused because I said "probably."

21             But I'm not sure if I would repeat what I said word for word.

22     But I stand by the substance of what I said in my statement.

23             MS. DENNEHY:  Your Honours, on that basis, the Prosecution would

24     like to tender this statement.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

Page 1734

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P300.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  For ease of reference, I would like to -- that the

 4     witness be given a hard copy of his statement in his own language.  Could

 5     the court usher please assist.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Conjar, I would now like to ask you a number of additional

 7     questions about the events described in your statement.

 8             At paragraph 3, you describe the attack on Lovas which took place

 9     on the 10th of October, 1991.  Was the village shelled before that day?

10        A.   It was, on a number of occasions.

11        Q.   And can you tell me when the village was shelled?  What dates was

12     the village shelled?

13        A.   Well, it was on the 5th, the 3rd, and the 1st, prior to that

14     date, and another occasion in the course of September.  So in October

15     before they entered the village, the 3rd, the 5th, and the 1st of

16     October.

17        Q.   Were any religious buildings in Lovas damaged as a result of the

18     shelling?

19        A.   Yes.  The church of Saint Michael's that was destroyed on the

20     5th -- or, rather the bell tower was destroyed on the 5th.  But it was

21     hit before.  It was destroyed on the 5th, but it had been damaged prior

22     to that date.

23        Q.   After the attack on Lovas, what armed forces were present in the

24     village?

25        A.   I would say that the formations were paramilitary formations.

Page 1735

 1     Afterwards, regular JNA army units appeared.

 2        Q.   And do you know the names of any of the paramilitary groups that

 3     were present in Lovas?

 4        A.   Members of the Dusan Silni group.

 5        Q.   And did you ever have occasion to meet any member of the

 6     Dusan Silni group?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   And where did you meet a member of the Dusan Silni group?

 9        A.   In my father-in-law's house.

10        Q.   And what was the Dusan Silni doing in your father-in-law's house?

11        A.   They had found accommodation in my father-in-law's house.  I

12     don't know what they were doing there, while I wasn't present in the

13     house, but I came across them.  They were slaughtering a pig when I was

14     there.  They were doing this in the bathroom, in the bath, boiled the

15     skin there.

16        Q.   I would like to now turn to paragraph 8 of your statement where

17     you mention Milan Devcic.  What position did Milan Devcic hold in Lovas

18     following the attack?

19        A.   Milan Devcic was commander of the police or the commander of the

20     police in Lovas.

21        Q.   And when did he take the position of police commander in Lovas?

22        A.   I don't know exactly.

23        Q.   Can you please confirm whether it was before or after the attack

24     on Lovas?

25        A.   Before the attack on Lovas there was no police station in Lovas.

Page 1736

 1        Q.   So, again, can you please tell us whether it was after the

 2     attack.

 3        A.   After the attack.

 4        Q.   At paragraph 11 of your statement, you say that you went to the

 5     police station to report to Milan Devcic for work details.  What do you

 6     mean by that term?

 7        A.   What do I mean?  Well, when I established contact with my parents

 8     after the attack, when my mother told me that Milan Devcic was asking

 9     about me, about the brothers, and said that I should return but nothing

10     would happen to us, that we would have to work, I then reported to them,

11     made myself available, in fact.  I took him at his word.  I believed that

12     what he said he would do would be done.

13        Q.   And were you supervised while doing that work?

14        A.   On a daily basis.  And I was under armed escort.

15        Q.   And were you paid for the work?

16        A.   Yes, by having one additional day to live if we did what they

17     ordered us to do.  Only after some time had elapsed, we were given some

18     sort of compensation in the form of coupons that we could use to buy one

19     candle that would last for about one hour, no more than that, and that

20     was the only form of compensation that we received for one day's work.

21        Q.   Can you please describe the most difficult work that you were

22     ordered to carry out?

23        A.   The most difficult work for me was collecting dead bodies.  One

24     day we received the order to collect a dead body which was near the

25     graveyard by the road where there were plum trees, I believe.  The body

Page 1737

 1     was in the grass.  Our duty was to put the body in a nylon bag and bury

 2     it.

 3        Q.   And whose body was this?

 4        A.   It was the body of Rudolf Jonak.

 5        Q.   And was Rudolf Jonak known to you?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Who ordered to you bury the body?

 8        A.   I can't remember exactly, but we received orders in front of the

 9     building of the local office where the municipality is now located in

10     Laso [as interpreted].

11        Q.   And what was the municipality building that is now known by --

12     known as -- know by at the time, so in 1991, what was the building

13     called?

14        A.   There was a room where weddings were held in that building, and

15     the local committee Lovas was there; it had its office.  And the post

16     office was also part of the building, or in the building, and at the rear

17     there was a flat.

18        Q.   And in 1991, what forces were stationed at that building?

19        A.   Later the TO, the Territorial Defence, had its headquarters

20     there.

21        Q.   Now, moving on to paragraph 16 of your statement, you've provided

22     evidence about Ljuban Devetak.  What position did Ljuban Devetak hold in

23     Lovas?

24        A.   Ljuban Devetak was the unofficial master of everything that went

25     on in Lovas.  He was the be-all and end-all in Lovas.

Page 1738

 1        Q.   Mr. Conjar, I would now like to show you a photograph that was --

 2     appear on the screen in front of you.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  Would the Court Officer please display 65 ter 6276.

 4     That's at tab 3 of the Court bundle.  And this is an aerial photograph.

 5        Q.   Mr. Conjar, do you recognise the photograph in front of you?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And what is this a photograph of?

 8        A.   This is a satellite photograph of Lovas.

 9        Q.   Can you --

10        A.   I can explain the photograph for you, if you like, because I use

11     this sort of map in the course of my work almost every day.

12        Q.   Can you please circle the house that was used as the police

13     station by Milan Devcic on the photograph and mark it with the number 1.

14        A.   If we could zoom in a bit.

15        Q.   And if you can just mark the number 1 next to that, please.

16             And can you also indicate to the Trial Chamber the house that was

17     used by Devetak.

18        A.   Devetak lived in the flat across the road, in the building across

19     the road.  Shall I mark it with number 2?  It was across the road from

20     that building.

21        Q.   Yes, please, if you would.

22        A.   [Marks]

23             MS. DENNEHY:  Your Honours, can I please ask that this

24     65 ter 6276 be admitted into evidence.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

Page 1739

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The one that is marked by the witness, you mean.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  The document shall be marked with

 5     Exhibit Number P301.  Thank you.

 6             MS. DENNEHY:

 7        Q.   Mr. Conjar, at paragraph 12 of your statement, you say that you

 8     were brought to the police station on two occasions by one of the men who

 9     had taken over your father-in-law's house.  While there, you heard

10     Ramiz Ferhatovic being beaten.  Who was beating him?

11        A.   I don't know who was beating him, but I heard the blows.  I heard

12     the groaning, the screaming from the cellar.  The sound reached me in the

13     room that I was in.

14        Q.   Was anyone else beaten at the police station?

15        A.   On that day when I was there?

16        Q.   On that day or any other day that you are aware of.

17        A.   Yes.  I remember that after this incident I was taken there for

18     interrogation on one other occasion, and they beat up an elderly man -

19     he was about 60 years old - before they got to me.

20        Q.   And do you know that man's name?

21        A.   His name is Marko Gracanac, an elderly man.

22        Q.   Were there other locations in Lovas where people were being

23     detained by those controlling the town after the attack?

24        A.   Yes.  There were several places.

25        Q.   Can you explain to the Trial Chamber where those places were?

Page 1740

 1        A.   I can.  The first place where people were detained was in the

 2     offices of the mechanical work-shops of the agricultural co-operative in

 3     Lovas.

 4        Q.   And who was detained at the mechanical work-shop?

 5        A.   A large number of people.  Some they had come across.  Others had

 6     been collected from their houses and taken there.

 7        Q.   And who was responsible for the detention at the Zadruga

 8     building, at the mechanical work-shop of the Zadruga building?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Was there anywhere else in Lovas that people were detained?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, there was the building where the registry was located;

12     it was across the road.

13        Q.   And who was detained at that building?

14        A.   Well, they were detaining people there, people they had taken

15     from their homes, and some of the people had been taken from areas

16     outside the settlement itself.

17        Q.   I would like to now move on to your detention at the Zadruga

18     building.

19             At paragraph 15 of your statement, you said that on the 17th of

20     October, all men between the ages of 17 and 50 had to report to the

21     community building at 5.00 p.m.

22             Who ordered that all men were to go to the Zadruga building on

23     that day?

24        A.   Ljuban Devetak.

25        Q.   I would now like to show you another photograph.

Page 1741

 1             MS. DENNEHY:  Would the Court Officer please display 65 ter 6277.

 2     That's at paragraph 4 of the Court's bundle.

 3        Q.   Mr. Conjar, do you recognise the building in this photograph?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Was this the building where you were detained?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you please mark with the number 1 the mechanical work-shop

 8     that you just mentioned where there were others detained.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And can I ask that you now mark with the number 2 where you sat

11     on benches for the evening of the 17th of October, 1991.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And, finally, can I ask that you mark with the number 3 where the

14     position of the machine-gun was pointing at you.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I now please ask that this 65 ter 6277 be

17     admitted into evidence.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The marked photograph under 65 ter 6277 shall be

20     assigned Exhibit Number P302.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MS. DENNEHY:

23        Q.   Mr. Conjar, can you please tell the Court what happened to you

24     and the other men on the night of the 17th of October at the Zadruga

25     building.

Page 1742

 1        A.   From the very moment we entered the work-shop and after we were

 2     searched, we were ordered to line up and sit on the benches that -- that

 3     were parallel to the walls of the work-shop building.  Across the room, a

 4     machine-gun was pointed at us.  We were told that we would stay there the

 5     entire night, that we shouldn't move, that we should not talk.

 6             In the course of the night, we were visited by the guards.  They

 7     daunted us, insulted us, ill-treated us.  They took our names.  They

 8     noted them.

 9        Q.   The following -- the following morning, you said that

10     Ljuban Devetak, some paramilitaries, and members of the special forces

11     arrived at that building and that beatings took place that morning.  Can

12     you please describe to the Court those beatings.

13        A.   It's very difficult to describe all the things that they did to

14     the people who were there.

15             They had a list.  They read out 22 names from the list.  As soon

16     as a name was called, the person would have to run a gauntlet of people

17     with rods, rifle-butts, batons, parts of machinery, hydraulic hoses and

18     things like that.  Whoever passed through the gauntlet would be hit

19     either by a rifle-butt or a rod or would be kicked, and then if they fell

20     down, they all swarmed upon him.  They would continue beating him until

21     they -- that person got up.  And then they continued beating them.  All

22     the 22 men had to endure that and all the 22 had been terribly beaten.

23             They suffered and -- and their sufferings are not easy to

24     describe in words.

25        Q.   Your brother's name was called out that morning.  Can you please

Page 1743

 1     describe what happened to him.

 2        A.   My brother had to run the same gauntlet, just like all the others

 3     whose names had been called up.  He was a tall man, almost 2 metres tall,

 4     and he was beaten by metal rods.  After that, he was never able to walk

 5     straight.  The entire side of his body was probably cracked and

 6     fractured.

 7        Q.   Mr. Conjar, I would now like to take you to the time that you

 8     were at the minefield.  You said that after the first explosion, they

 9     started firing at you.  Who started firing at you?

10        A.   Our escorts who took us to the minefield, they were behind us.

11     Some of them were on the side of the road, standing in a line.

12        Q.   And who were those escorts?  Who -- who were those men?

13        A.   It was a platoon of specials, a special unit from Valjevo.

14        Q.   Was there any reason for this special unit from Valjevo to fire

15     at you?

16        A.   Nothing but execution.

17        Q.   I'd now like to return to your brother.  When you were laying in

18     the minefield, you saw your brother-in-law's wife and your mother passing

19     in an ambulance.  Where were they going?

20        A.   A small correction:  It was not an ambulance.

21        Q.   You saw them passing in a vehicle.  Where were they going?

22        A.   Yes.  There was, indeed, a vehicle, and my sister-in-law is --

23     was in it.  She was nine months pregnant at the time.  And there was

24     another vehicle where my mother was.  My sister-in-law was being taken to

25     a hospital to give birth.


Page 1744

 1        Q.   And when did she give birth?

 2        A.   On the 20th of October.  Two days after my brother was killed.

 3        Q.   And where was your brother killed?

 4        A.   In the minefield.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. DENNEHY:  That concludes my questions for now, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             Cross-examination?

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Conjar.  My name is

12     Zoran Zivanovic, and in this case, I represent Goran Hadzic.

13             Mr. Conjar, according to the information that I have, you

14     provided previous statements, one of them to the Croatian judiciary

15     bodies.  I believe that that was in 2006.  Do you remember that?

16        A.   Please jog my memory?

17        Q.   Let me just ask you this:  Do you remember that you ever provided

18     the Croatian judicial bodies any kind of statement?

19        A.   I provided several statements.  I can't remember their

20     chronological order.  I don't know whether that was, indeed, in the year

21     that you have just mentioned.

22        Q.   When you say "several times," does that mean that you provided

23     the Croatian bodies several statements about the events in Lovas?

24        A.   Not only Croatian bodies.  When I left Lovas, from that moment

25     until the statement that I provided in Belgrade, I provided several

Page 1745

 1     statements but I can't give you their chronological order.  I can't tell

 2     you when I gave what statement.  I would have to see what I stated, then

 3     I could confirm and I could answer your question.  I would have to see

 4     the details of that statement.

 5        Q.   If need be, I'll show it to you.  I just wanted you to tell us

 6     whether you provided statements.  But you said you did.

 7        A.   I don't remember.  I can't tell you exactly what I said and when

 8     I said it.  I can't answer your question, in other words.

 9        Q.   Do you know that in Belgrade before the Trial Chamber for

10     War Crimes, there was a trial against Ljuban Devetak, Milan Devcic and a

11     group of people who were tried for the crimes committed in Lovas in

12     October 1991?

13        A.   Yes, I know that.

14        Q.   You provided two statements, as far as I know, and if you want me

15     to, I can show those statements to you.  The first was given to an

16     investigating judge --

17        A.   Yes, I was there twice.

18        Q.   I would like to ask you the following.  At the beginning of the

19     crisis in the former Yugoslavia, what was your profession?  What did you

20     do?

21        A.   I was not employed.  I had a degree, a university degree, in

22     agriculture.

23        Q.   And you resided in Lovas; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you describe the situation in Lovas for us, up to the summer

Page 1746

 1     of 1991.

 2        A.   Relatively calm, especially in view of what was going on around

 3     Lovas.  Nothing significant was happening in Lovas, if you are alluding

 4     to interethnic problems.

 5        Q.   At that time, were you a member of a political party?

 6        A.   Yes, I was.

 7        Q.   What party was that?

 8        A.   The Croatian Democratic Union, or the HDZ.

 9        Q.   Do you remember whether there was an HDZ board in Lovas?

10        A.   Yes.  There was a Croatian Democratic Union board there.

11        Q.   Who were its members; do you remember?

12        A.   I can assume that -- about some people, but I'm not a hundred

13     per cent sure.

14        Q.   For example?  Give us a name or two.

15        A.   Mr. Jozo Milas.

16        Q.   Do you remember if Marko Gracanac was a member?

17        A.   Marko Gracanac junior or senior?

18        Q.   Marko Gracanac named Markica.

19        A.   Marko Gracanac junior, yes.

20        Q.   Tell me, please:  At that time, we know that Lovas had a majority

21     Croatian population.  Nearly 90 per cent of the population were Croats.

22     In the HDZ party in Lovas, were there any Serbs as members?

23        A.   Yes, there were.  I can even give you a name of a lady who was a

24     member.  Branka Grkovic.  She was a Serb and she was an HDZ member.  I

25     believer that there were others as well, but I'm sure that she was.

Page 1747

 1        Q.   In any case, do you agree with me that a vast majority of the HDZ

 2     members were Croats?

 3        A.   Yes, I do agree with that.

 4        Q.   Did it ever interest you why the Serbian population did not join

 5     the HDZ in Lovas in somewhat greater numbers?

 6        A.   Can you repeat your question?

 7        Q.   Do you know, did you ever try to find out, how come that the

 8     Serbian population in Lovas did not join the HDZ in greater numbers?

 9        A.   I wasn't interested in that.

10        Q.   You were on good terms with the Serbs who lived in Lovas.

11        A.   Yes.  My next-door neighbour was a Serb.

12        Q.   I believe that his name is Milan Miljkovic?

13        A.   No.  Milos Miljkovic.

14        Q.   I apologise.  I believe that you also had very close relations

15     with Milan Devcic; right?

16        A.   Yes.  Milan Devcic was my best man at -- at my wedding.

17        Q.   Did you ever discuss that issue with him?  Did you ask him how

18     come he did not join the HDZ?

19        A.   No, I did not.

20        Q.   Did you talk to him about possible objections to the HDZ policies

21     that either he or other Serbs who resided in Lovas may have had?

22        A.   No, we never discussed that.

23        Q.   Mr. Conjar, we have come by a piece of information, according to

24     which in 1990, sometime in late April, there was a meeting held in the

25     village of Bogdanovci.  A decision was taken at that meeting for the

Page 1748

 1     Croatian Democratic Union to become a military organisation.  According

 2     to that same information, that decision was also implemented in Lovas.

 3     Do you know anything about that?

 4        A.   No, I don't.

 5        Q.   According to that same information, three services were

 6     established around that time.  One of them was a technical service headed

 7     by Ivo Madzarevic; the other one was a military service headed by

 8     Markica Gracanac, and a medical service headed by Franjo Mujic and

 9     Branko Krizmanic.  Are you familiar with these people?

10        A.   Yes, I know these people.  They are all villagers of Lovas.

11        Q.   Did you talk to them at the time?  Were you in communication with

12     them?

13        A.   No, I was not.

14        Q.   We have also learnt that a volunteer detachment was set up in

15     Lovas.  Its commander was Markica Gracanac.  It had 120 men as its

16     members.  Did you ever hear about that detachment?

17        A.   No.  This information takes me by surprise.

18        Q.   We have also learnt that in the village of Bogdanovci, there was

19     a lineup of volunteer detachments and that the detachment from Lovas also

20     took part.  Do you know anything about that?

21        A.   No, I don't.

22        Q.   According to the information that we have, those men from Lovas

23     were transferred by buses and private cars.  We're talking about a rather

24     good organisation of people from such a small place as Lovas.  Did you

25     notice that transport taking place from Lovas to Bogdanovci?

Page 1749

 1        A.   No, I did not.

 2        Q.   According to that same information, between 1500 and 2000 members

 3     of volunteer detachments from various places, including Lovas, attended

 4     that review of volunteer detachments in Bogdanovci.

 5        A.   I don't know anything about that.  For your information, I can

 6     tell you that at the time my wife was pregnant.  She had a complicated

 7     pregnancy.  I was not employed.  We had another older child, so I simply

 8     did not have the time to think about things like that.

 9        Q.   Did you take any steps in view of the fact that you were

10     unemployed to find a job?

11        A.   Of course I did.

12        Q.   Can you tell us, please, what steps did you take.

13        A.   I did everything I could.  In Lovas at the time, I was

14     temporarily employed by the football team as a janitor, which means that

15     I mowed the football pitch that was -- that took six hours every day.  I

16     cleaned the premises after the games and training sessions.  I also

17     washed the tablecloths and other textiles, so I didn't have the time to

18     follow those things that you asked me about.  And, also, I worked

19     temporarily on building walking trails around Lovas.  I did the latter

20     thing in the morning, and, in the afternoon, I worked on the football

21     pitch in Lovas.

22        Q.   And how long did that last for?  How long did you work on -- at

23     the football pitch?

24        A.   Well, until the summer of 1991, effectively.

25        Q.   Perhaps then you could tell us something about another piece of

Page 1750

 1     information that I have.

 2             On the 29th of September, 1991, a football game was played in

 3     Lovas between the local team and the Sloga team from Borovo.  Do you

 4     remember that?

 5        A.   On the 29th of September, 1991, no game was played.

 6        Q.   Very well, then.  Let's go back to the beginning.  As you

 7     searched for work, did you talk to Jozo Milas?

 8        A.   I talked to Mr. Rendulic, the director of the agricultural

 9     co-operative in Lovas.  He was in charge of employment there.

10        Q.   And what about Jozo Milas, did you talk to him?

11        A.   I did not ask him for a job.  I did talk to him but not about

12     employment.

13        Q.   Did Jozo Milas promise you a job?

14        A.   Not strictly speaking.

15        Q.   Was it conditional upon anything?

16        A.   No, there were no conditions attached to anything.  But he

17     suggested that I should join the HDZ.

18        Q.   And if you did that, where would you be employed?

19        A.   I assumed that he would offer me a job in my profession.

20        Q.   Did you assume that you would find employment in Lovas?

21        A.   Anywhere.  Because I was unemployed and, as that was the case, I

22     would have welcomed any job.

23        Q.   Where did Jozo Milas work at the time?

24        A.   Jozo Milas was a secretary, a lawyer in the Lovas agricultural

25     co-operative.

Page 1751

 1        Q.   I will now quote you when you testified at the court in Belgrade

 2     with regard to this matter, or I will show you something about that.  It

 3     is exhibit number 4 from the 65 ter list, 3189, page 59.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I would just inform the Trial Chamber that

 5     the whole document has not been translated yet and, unfortunately, this

 6     part of document is not translated.  Our request is pending.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll read it out because it's very short.  I

 8     think you can see it on the page.  Page 59.  Somewhere in the middle.

 9     You say in response to a question put to you by the lawyer

10     Zdravko Krstic.  The witness, Milan Conjar:  Yes, Milos promised me that

11     I would be employed if I joined the HDZ.

12             It's in the Cyrillic script.  I don't know whether you can read

13     it easily.

14        A.   Yes, I am sufficiently literate.  I can.

15        Q.   Do you remember having said this before the court in Belgrade?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And is that, in fact, what you said, what it says here?

18        A.   He put this to me perhaps differently.  Perhaps Mr. Krstic wanted

19     me to say yes.  But, in essence it is what you asked me about.  He

20     suggested that I join the HDZ.  That was the proposal made and it was

21     said that I would find employment then.

22        Q.   At the time of the former SFRY, you didn't do your military

23     service, did you?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Then I've made a mistake.

Page 1752

 1             When the Crisis Staff was established in Lovas, did you have any

 2     duties that related to the defence of Lovas?

 3        A.   I wasn't a member of the Crisis Staff.  For a certain period of

 4     time, I did perform guard duty.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us what the purpose was of performing guard duty.

 6     What were you protecting Lovas from, and from whom?

 7        A.   The purpose of performing guard duty was to prevent people or

 8     groups from entering the area, to ensure that no one acted in a

 9     disruptive manner in the village.

10        Q.   And before these guards were established, were there any

11     incidents in Lovas?

12        A.   No.  As far as I can remember, there were no incidents of any

13     particular significance.  Practically nothing.  Apart from one, I

14     believe.

15        Q.   Did Serbs also stand guard?

16        A.   Yes, there were Serbs too.

17        Q.   I will now ask you to have a look at page 72 of this same

18     document.  It is at the very beginning, at the top of the page.  The

19     question put to you by the lawyer, Igor Olujic, is as follows:  "What I'm

20     interested in," he says, "is whether the Serbs participated in the guards

21     that were established within the framework of the Crisis Staff."  And

22     your answer was:  "I do not know.  I cannot remember."

23        A.   Well, then, that's the information I heard.  There were no Serbs

24     with me when I was on guard.

25        Q.   I think you said that this is what you subsequently heard; is

Page 1753

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   After the trial in Belgrade.

 3        Q.   And did you hear anything about the men who were involved in

 4     those guards?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   I'll now move onto issues that concern your statement, and my

 7     learned friend from the Prosecution put some questions to you about it.

 8             What I'm interested in is when the attack was launched on Lovas

 9     by the JNA and the paramilitary formations, was any resistance mounted in

10     Lovas?

11        A.   Organised resistance?  No.

12        Q.   Was there any unorganised resistance?

13        A.   Perhaps a shot or two were fired by people who were fleeing, but

14     there was no resistance.

15        Q.   Tell me, you have a younger brother whose name is Josip.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   At the trial in Belgrade --

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the same

19     document, in fact, page 80.

20             MS. DENNEHY:  Your Honours.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

22             MS. DENNEHY:  If I could have a moment, we don't have a

23     translation of this document, nor is a translation available to the

24     Trial Chamber.  And while we have allowed some questioning on this issue,

25     any further questions is quite difficult, given the lack of a

Page 1754

 1     translation.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I don't know why the Prosecution did

 4     not seek the translation of the whole document but just translation of

 5     the parts maybe most convenient for them, and we did it, but it requires

 6     time.  It is documents from Rule 65 ter list.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So it's a Prosecution document, Ms. Dennehy.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is from the Rule -- it is 3189 from the

 9     Prosecution list.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm told -- I'm told that there are six partial

11     English translations; in total about 30, 40, about 50 pages long, out of

12     92.  Is that correct?

13             MS. DENNEHY:  I believe so, yes, Your Honour.  However, there

14     isn't a full translation of this document, and I believe the reason for

15     that was time and resource constraints.  But what I would object to is

16     the further use of any parts of this document that there isn't a

17     translation available for.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think that would be rather unfair, wouldn't it?

19             What -- what would be the remedy for the Defence?  What would you

20     suggest?

21             MS. DENNEHY:  My --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Or do you suggest just don't use it?

23             MS. DENNEHY:  The objection is based on the fact that there may

24     not be a translation available in respect of any of the parts to which

25     the Defence is referring.

Page 1755

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Translation is pending, we are told.

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Your Honour.  In that case, I withdraw my

 3     objection.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, if I may -- may just add.

 6             I used this document, this particular document, just to remind

 7     the witness.  I'm not -- I not tender the whole document into evidence.

 8     It is not my --

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But you do confirm that the translation, at least

10     from the parts that you are using now, is pending.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.  Please continue.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   We were on page 80 of the transcript from the trial.  You will

16     find the part I'm interested in at the bottom.  Slobodan Zivkovic put the

17     question to you and he says:  Very well.  In your testimony of the 11th

18     of March, 1996, Ante Luketic said that resistance was mounted by

19     Jakob Balic, Sinisa Pavlicic, Tomo Balic, and certain others, as well as

20     Josip Conjar.  And then you puts a question to you, and you've answered

21     that.

22             Tell me, do you remember that question and your answer?  You also

23     said that your brother was mobilised into the Croatian Guards in the

24     course of the war, in Osijek?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1756

 1        Q.   Have a look at the next page now.  At the bottom, where it says

 2     that in the course of the war your brother was in the guards in Osijek.

 3     It also says, or we can also find the following question and your answer.

 4     The lawyer Slobodan Zivkovic asks you the following again:

 5             Very well.  You said that when there was this HDZ celebration in

 6     Lovas, you weren't present.  You were at a football match.  This was on

 7     the 29th of September, 1991.  Did your brother also play football there?

 8             And your answer was:  They were playing there, but the younger

 9     categories were playing.

10        A.   We're getting the dates mixed up again.  The 29th of September,

11     1991.  Perhaps there's a mistake in the date.  1991.  It was perhaps in

12     1990.  We didn't play football in 1991.  The cup was no longer held.  The

13     last one was held in Pacetina on the 19th of June.  The HDZ was

14     established prior to that date, the 19th of June, 1991.  The attack on

15     Tovarnik was on the 20th/21st of September, 1991, and after the attack,

16     no more matches were played.  So perhaps there was a mistake in the

17     transcript.

18        Q.   Well, look, here you say that they were playing but it was the

19     younger categories that were playing.

20        A.   Yes.  When my brothers were juniors, pioneers, they then played

21     football, when they were 15 or 16.  They played for the Lovas football

22     club.  And I continued to play actively up until 1991.

23        Q.   And as can you see, it continues and the lawyer asks you who were

24     you playing against there?  And you replied, In Borovo Selo.  Against

25     whom?  Against whom did you play?  Against Sloga Borovo.

Page 1757

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you provide some very characteristic details.

 3        A.   The Sloga Borovo football club, I played against them at the

 4     time.  That was the name of the football club from Borovo Selo, Borovo

 5     village.

 6        Q.   The only thing is that you provide answers within the context of

 7     questions about a football match played on the 29th of September, 1991.

 8     And that is why I'm asking you about this and I am dwelling on this

 9     football match, for that reason.

10        A.   I'm repeating what I said.  On the 29th of September, 1991, no

11     football matches were played.  Perhaps there's a mistake in the

12     transcript.  This was perhaps a year earlier.  When the HDZ celebration

13     was held in Lovas, the Lovas football club played a match in Borovo Selo,

14     Borovo village, against the Sloga Borovo.

15        Q.   When was this HDZ celebration in Lovas?

16        A.   I would say -- well, I don't know what the exact date was.  I

17     know it was on a Sunday.  We were playing a -- the match up until noon,

18     from 10.00 to noon.

19        Q.   Can you describe this celebration?  Were there any speeches?

20        A.   No.  As I am saying, I was playing football while this was going

21     on.

22        Q.   You mentioned your neighbour.  I think he lived - and still does

23     live - right next to you, Milos Miljkovic, a Serb.  In your statement you

24     described in detail how the JNA attacked Lovas, and you described what

25     was done on that occasion.

Page 1758

 1             Tell me, concerning the units that carried out the attack, the

 2     paramilitary formations and the JNA, did they throw a grenade into his

 3     house?

 4        A.   No, not into the house but into the cellar.

 5        Q.   Do you know why they did that?  Why did they throw a grenade into

 6     his house?

 7        A.   They didn't throw a grenade into his house.  They threw a grenade

 8     into his cellar.

 9        Q.   Well, very well, the cellar is part of the house.

10        A.   No, the cellar is under the hill.  The house is at the other end,

11     on the other side.

12        Q.   I didn't know that.  Were grenades thrown into any other houses,

13     apart from his house or, rather, into any other cellars?

14        A.   Yes, a grenade was thrown into my brother's house and into

15     certain other houses as well.

16        Q.   Can you tell us why they threw grenades into these cellars?  Did

17     you hear anything about this?  Did they say anything about the matter?

18        A.   Well, I know people would hide in their cellars.  I was nearby.

19     I heard when they were asking people to leave the cellar in

20     Milos Miljkovic's yard.  I heard people coming out.  But they threw a

21     grenade in just in case.  This was in order to make sure that no one

22     opened fire on them.

23        Q.   In other words, they were afraid that when people were coming out

24     of the cellar, someone might remain behind with a weapon and might then

25     open fire on them.

Page 1759

 1        A.   That's what I assume.

 2        Q.   I would like you to explain the detail of the event in the

 3     minefield, i.e., how Kraljevic, whose name was Ivica, Ivica Kraljevic,

 4     how did he get killed?  Did you see the event?  Did you see how that

 5     transpired?  How did he get killed?

 6        A.   At the moment when we hit the mines in the minefield, the first

 7     person who did that stopped.  All the rest of us were lined up in a

 8     straight line, and they ordered us to proceed, to continue walking into

 9     the minefield.  The first step was made by Ivica.  He was the one who

10     said, I'll go first.  He stepped out and, unfortunately, he activated a

11     mine.  Then fire was opened, so some people were killed by mines and the

12     others were killed by bullets fired into their backs.

13        Q.   Were you close to him when that happened?

14        A.   Could you define the term "close"?

15        Q.   Could you hear him?

16        A.   Yes, I could hear him really well.

17        Q.   I suppose that you could also see him; right?

18        A.   It's not easy to see when you're lined up in a straight line.

19     It's very hard to -- to see very far to the right and to the left, but I

20     could hear his voice very clear and loud.

21        Q.   In your vicinity, in the vicinity of that lineup, in his

22     vicinity, was there a member of a military or a paramilitary formation;

23     and, if there were, can you tell us how far were they from us [as

24     interpreted]?

25        A.   There were several of us behind our backs.  They were members of

Page 1760

 1     the special police escort that escorted us, and there were two locals of

 2     Lovas among them.

 3        Q.   How far from you were they?  You were standing straight in front

 4     of the minefield.  How far away behind you were they, according to your

 5     estimate?

 6        A.   Not more than 50 metres, up to 50 metres.

 7        Q.   Did any of them approach you?  Did they come closer to you; for

 8     example, a metre or 2 metres behind you?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   In other words, I may be wrong to say this, but let's say that he

11     decided himself to do what he did.  Nobody pushed him intentionally or by

12     mistake.  Nobody pushed him into the minefield.

13        A.   What do you mean?  Who would make their own decisions if

14     threatened and if threatened with a gun?

15        Q.   I understand what you're saying, but I want to exclude one

16     possibility.  Did somebody, for example, push him into the minefield when

17     he hit the -- that mine?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   Are you saying you don't know or is it the way you have just

20     explained?  Did you hear him say, I'll go first?

21        A.   He was the one who stepped out first.

22        Q.   But did he utter those words, the words that you quoted:  I will

23     be the first.

24        A.   He says, I'll start.  Maybe I am not rephrasing his words

25     properly.  He said, I'll be the first.

Page 1761

 1        Q.   So he announced his intention.

 2             Could you please answer?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that's time for a break, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, it's the time for our first break.

 6     We will come back at 11.00.  The court usher will escort you out of the

 7     courtroom.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12                          --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

13                          [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1762











11 Page 1762 redacted.















Page 1763

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]


Page 1764

 1        Q.   Mr. Conjar, I would like to thank you for your answers.  I have

 2     nothing further for you.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have finished my

 4     cross-examination.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             Ms. Dennehy, re-direct?

 7             MS. DENNEHY:  No, Your Honour.  I don't have any further

 8     questions at this time.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11                           Questioned by the Court:

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness Conjar, in today's

13     transcript on page 4, we read, on lines 15 through 20, about the Church

14     of Saint Michael's which was destroyed by shelling and the first thing

15     that collapsed was the bell-tower and then that happened on -- in October

16     1991; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could you tell me what

19     religion did this church belong to?  What faith.

20        A.   It was a Catholic church.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Were there any other

22     churches belonging to other religions in the village of Lovas?

23        A.   No.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Conjar --

Page 1765

 1        A.   [In English] Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- in cross-examination, you were asked the

 3     following:

 4             "According to our information, three services were established

 5     around that time.  One of them was a technical service, headed by

 6     Ivo Madzarevic, the other was a military service headed by," I don't have

 7     the name, "and medical service headed by Franjo Mujic and

 8     Branko Krizmanic.  Are you familiar with these people?"

 9             And your answer is:

10             "Yes, I know these people.  They are all villagers of Lovas."

11             However, you were not asked whether you know of the existence of

12     the three services that they allegedly headed, a technical, a medical and

13     military service.  Did you know about that?

14        A.   [Interpretation] About their positions?  No.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  About the -- and about the existence of these

16     three services.

17        A.   No.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Conjar, this is the end of your testimony today.  You are now

20     released as a witness.  We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

21     assist us, and we wish you a safe journey back home.

22             The court usher will now escort you out of the courtroom.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, after Ms. Clanton yesterday, today


Page 1766

 1     it was your turn to get on your feet for the first time in court.

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, it was, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I congratulate you for a job well done.

 4             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do we have another witness?

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  The short answer, Your Honour, is perhaps.  I

 7     haven't spoken to Defence counsel directly but I understand that there

 8     may be some issues if we were to advance the witness who was scheduled

 9     for tomorrow because we've -- we've finished a lot earlier than we

10     thought we would, to bring him forward and start today, and I heard not

11     directly from counsel but from my colleagues that perhaps this would be

12     not suitable for -- for them.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we hear from the Defence?

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Exactly, Your Honours.  I was informed that --

15     about the intent of the Prosecution to bring this witness today - he was

16     scheduled for tomorrow - this morning, at 9.00.  So I didn't finish my

17     preparation for his examination or cross-examination and documents

18     relevant for -- for his testimony.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  How long would examination-in-chief take,

20     Ms. Biersay?

21             MS. BIERSAY:  We are currently down for two and a half hours, and

22     I suspect we may go ten to 15 minutes longer than that.  But two and a

23     half is the current time.  Perhaps it may be faster, but I doubt it.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a problem with today's

25     start only for examination-in-chief?

Page 1767

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.  But I would ask the Trial Chamber to -- to

 2     let us submit our list for cross-examination later, not right now.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would that suit?  Would you agree to that,

 4     Ms. Biersay?  So in that case we could start today and have the list for

 5     cross-examination by, let's say, tomorrow morning 9.00.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  I think that is reasonable, Your Honour.  If it's

 7     possible to have it earlier, that would be very good.  And perhaps with

 8     the leave of the Court and with the agreement of counsel, we could have

 9     some extra time to review those documents tomorrow.  But I don't think

10     that should be a problem.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's see how it goes and then we -- the

12     witness is here?

13             MS. BIERSAY:  He is here, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  I believe he -- VWS, that they've brought them down

16     in anticipation of this.  And, once again, I apologise to the Court, I'll

17     have to do some changes with my colleagues to prepare.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

19             Can the witness be brought in?

20             Which witness is it, Ms. Biersay?

21             MS. BIERSAY:  This will be Witness GH-095.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Protective measures of pseudonym, Ms. Biersay?

23     That's all?

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 1768

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me in a

 2     language you understand?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             Could you please -- oh, no, we have to ask for the pseudonym

 6     sheet.

 7             MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] That's tab 1 --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.  65 ter 6348.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, because of the protective measures

11     of pseudonym, we will not mention your name in court and we will show you

12     now on the screen a sheet with your details, name and date of birth.

13     Could you please check whether these are correct?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Now, then, you are about to -- to

16     make the solemn declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell

17     the truth.  That means that you expose yourself to the penalties of

18     perjury should you give misleading or untruthful information to the

19     Tribunal.

20             Is that understood?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you then now make the solemn declaration,

23     please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 1769

 1                           WITNESS:  GH-095

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

 4             Now, Mr. Registrar, can we have an exhibit number for the

 5     pseudonym sheet, please.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 6348 shall be

 7     assigned Exhibit Number P303.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             Your witness, Ms. Biersay.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  And I take that would be under seal; is that

11     correct?

12                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'll be referring to you by your pseudonym number,

14     which is GH-095, or as "Mr. Witness" because you're protected.

15             Do you understand?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber where you were born?

18        A.   I was born in Vukovar.

19        Q.   Where were you raised?

20        A.   In Lovas.

21        Q.   Where were you educated?

22        A.   In Lovas.

23        Q.   And where have you lived for most of your life?

24        A.   In Lovas.

25        Q.   Could you describe for the Trial Chamber the ethnic composition

Page 1770

 1     of Lovas in early 1991.

 2        A.   It had a majority Croatian population.  There were some Serbs and

 3     some Hungarians as well.

 4        Q.   And which number was greater, the number of Serbs or the number

 5     of Hungarians?

 6        A.   Serbs.

 7        Q.   Could you describe before 1991 what the relationship was between

 8     the different ethnicities in your community in Lovas.

 9        A.   The relationship was good.  We lived together.  We socialised.

10     There were no incidents.

11        Q.   And how would you describe the atmosphere in Lovas village?

12     Actually ...

13        A.   The atmosphere was friendly.

14        Q.   Where did you work at the time, the beginning of 1991?

15        A.   I worked at the Borovo company.

16        Q.   And what was that?

17        A.   It was a leather and footwear factory.

18        Q.   And how many people did it employ?

19        A.   Around 20.000.

20        Q.   And how would you describe the ethnic mix of the people who

21     worked there?

22        A.   There were people of all ethnicities, from all of the former

23     Yugoslavia.  Croats, Serbs, Macedonians.

24        Q.   Now, how -- could you describe how far is Lovas from the

25     Croatia-Serbian border?

Page 1771

 1        A.   About 3 kilometres.

 2        Q.   And how far is Lovas from Tovarnik?

 3        A.   7 kilometres.

 4        Q.   How far from Borovo Selo?

 5        A.   About 30 kilometres.

 6        Q.   The factory that you just described, Borovo, where was that

 7     located?

 8        A.   Between Vukovar and Borovo Selo.

 9        Q.   In 1991 --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, could the witness please confirm the

11     number of people working in the Borovo factory.

12             MS. BIERSAY:

13        Q.   Mr. Witness --

14        A.   About 20.000.

15        Q.   And when you say --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MS. BIERSAY:

18        Q.   -- 20.000, do you mean in one -- in one place or did they have

19     multiple locations?

20        A.   Most of them were in Borovo where I worked, but the factory also

21     had outlets and shops and small work-shops all over Yugoslavia.

22        Q.   And the number you gave the Trial Chamber of 20.000, what

23     location were those people working?

24        A.   In Borovo itself, in the factory there.

25   (redacted)

Page 1772

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        Q.   You described that the -- the atmosphere in Lovas was good and

 5     friendly.  Did that begin to change in 1991?

 6        A.   In the month of May, after the incident in Borovo Selo, things

 7     started changing.

 8        Q.   And how -- how were things changing in Lovas?

 9        A.   People started mounting guards around the village, and little by

10     little, panic started creeping in.  We were close to the border.  We saw

11     on TV what had happened in Borovo Selo.

12        Q.   And what is your understanding of what happened in Borovo Selo?

13        A.   The Croatian police were attacked and killed in that village.

14        Q.   I'd now like to direct your attention to the end of

15     September 1991.  At that time, do you recall hearing shots in Lovas?

16        A.   Not in Lovas.  Tanks opened fire from the direction of Tovarnik,

17     in the direction of the local Catholic church.

18        Q.   And where were you when you heard the shots?

19        A.   I was in an orchard outside of the village.  We were picking

20     apples.

21        Q.   Which village?

22        A.   Outside of the village of Lovas.

23        Q.   And could you describe to the Trial Chamber exactly what you

24     heard.

25        A.   We heard shots being fired, and we heard the whistle of the

Page 1773

 1     shells.  We also heard the noise of the tank engines.  When we returned

 2     to the village, we saw that the bell-tower of the Catholic church was

 3     damaged.

 4        Q.   On that occasion, were there any shots fired from Lovas itself?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   After this -- what you describe as the damage to the -- to the

 7     bell-tower of the Catholic church, was there some indication of what had

 8     caused that damage to the Catholic church?

 9        A.   I didn't know why fire had been opened.  There had been no prior

10     provocations.  Those columns of tanks were passing from Sid towards

11     Vukovar, and they were not provoked in any way.

12        Q.   I'd like to now move your attention from that first attack on

13     Lovas to what happened in Lovas because of events in Tovarnik.

14             Did there come a time that you learned that Tovarnik had been

15     attacked?

16        A.   Yes.  One morning, we heard people coming from Tovarnik, from the

17     surrounding places.  They were fleeing.  They said that tanks had entered

18     the village, opened fire on Croatian houses.  They had set fire to the

19     Catholic church, and then they came to the place.  They were panicking.

20     We found accommodation for them in houses, if they had friends or

21     relatives.

22        Q.   Now you said you heard from people coming from Tovarnik.  What

23     ethnicity did these people have?

24        A.   They were Croats.

25        Q.   And you said that:  "They had set fire to the Catholic

Page 1774

 1     church ..."  Who is the "they"?  Who set fire to the Catholic church?

 2        A.   Well, the army that entered the village.

 3        Q.   And which village are we talking about, in this instance?

 4        A.   Tovarnik.

 5        Q.   You described that accommodation was found for those Croats

 6     fleeing Tovarnik.  Did you house any of these refugees?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And what was the effect on the people of Lovas when they heard

 9     the news of what was happening in Tovarnik?

10        A.   Well, panic spread.  People were afraid because, according to

11     what these Croats who had come from Tovarnik said, there had been people

12     who were killed.  Houses had been set on fire.  So panic spread amongst

13     them.

14        Q.   Did something else happen to the Catholic church after the first

15     damage that you described?

16        A.   Several days later, after the fall of Tovarnik, a column of tanks

17     that went from Sid to Vukovar fired on the church again.  The belfry

18     caught fire and the silos of the agricultural co-operative were also

19     fired on at the entrance to the village.

20        Q.   Can you estimate how many shells fell on Lovas in this event?

21        A.   About four or five.

22        Q.   And did you see the tanks?

23        A.   We saw the tanks on the road in the main place.

24        Q.   Do you recall the first time in 1991 that you saw a JNA officer

25     in Lovas?

Page 1775

 1        A.   It was a few days prior to the attack on Lovas.

 2        Q.   And could you briefly describe that event to the Trial Chamber.

 3        A.   Well, when the people arrived from Tovarnik, the inhabitants of

 4     our village took a decision.  Two Serbs and two Croats went to Sid to

 5     speak to the army.  They returned and they said they were asking for

 6     about a hundred automatic weapons to be handed over, but they weren't in

 7     the village.  But things remained as they were.  Then on the second day,

 8     a JNA officer, a driver and a Catholic priest from Tovarnik came and he

 9     shouted and said we had to surrender weapons if we didn't want to suffer

10     the same fate as Tovarnik, and he was very angry.  He got into his car

11     and then left.

12        Q.   And who said this?  Who said -- who shouted and said --

13        A.   The JNA officer.

14        Q.   After this ultimatum from the JNA officer, I'd like to direct

15     your attention to the 10th of October, 1991.  What happened that morning?

16        A.   Well, at about 7.00 in the morning, we heard some explosions.

17     Tank explosions.  We hid in the cellar.  The explosions stopped a few

18     minutes later.  Then they were silent for a few minutes, and then from

19     the direction of Opatovac, you could hear bursts of infantry fire as they

20     were approaching the village, the centre.  We hid in the cellars.  I live

21     in the centre so I looked out of the window and I saw that from the

22     direction of Opatovac there were armed men approaching and they were

23     driving away the Croats in the street.  They knocked on my gate after a

24     while, asked me to come out.  They said that they would throw a grenade

25     into the cellar.  I came out, opened the door.  These were inhabitants of

Page 1776

 1     Serbian ethnicity of ours.  They started cursing our Ustasha mothers

 2     there and so on and so forth.  They asked for weapons.  I said I didn't

 3     have any.  They said they would search the house, and then one Serb asked

 4     me whether I had any weapons.  I said that I didn't.  They moved on.  He

 5     said I should put a white rag or sheet on the gate and remain in the

 6     yard.  He said I should not go outside.

 7        Q.   Let's slow down just a little bit.

 8        A.   Okay.

 9        Q.   When you heard the fire, you described that "we hid in the

10     cellar."  So who -- who hid in the cellar?

11        A.   My family.  My children.  My mother.  My wife.  There were other

12     neighbours and two elderly Croats from Tovarnik who were with them.

13        Q.   And you described that "they knocked on my gate."  Who knocked on

14     your gate?

15        A.   The Serbs.  Serbian inhabitants of our village and there were

16     some unknown men, and there were Serbs from the village, from Borovo.

17     Serbs I knew from Borovo where we worked together.

18        Q.   Could you describe the -- the names -- or give the names of the

19     people who you recognised in that group.

20        A.   Zeljko Krnjaic, Milorad Vorkapic, Milan Vorkapic aka Trnda,

21     Milenko Rudic.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, could you slow down a little bit.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Serb from Borovo Selo, Rakic, I

24     knew him because he worked with me in Borovo.  And there were unknown

25     persons who weren't from the village and whom I did not know.

Page 1777

 1             MS. BIERSAY:

 2        Q.   Now, you said that they -- they asked for weapons.  Did any one

 3     in particular ask you for weapons or did they all ask you for weapons?

 4        A.   Zeljko Krnjaic.

 5        Q.   Who told you to -- as you say, to put a white sheet or rag on the

 6     gate?

 7        A.   Yes.  Dusan Grkovic, a Serb from Lovas, who was in that group.

 8        Q.   Where did they go after they left your house; do you know?

 9        A.   They continued down the street towards the machine work-shop of

10     the agricultural co-operative.

11        Q.   Is that also known as the -- the work-shop of the Zadruga?

12        A.   Yes, the machine work-shop, Zadruga.

13        Q.   What was your understanding about the reason why you had to put a

14     white sheet on your house?

15        A.   Well, to show that it was a Croatian house and that it had been

16     searched.

17        Q.   How many of the Croat houses in Lovas had to display a white

18     sheet at this time?

19        A.   All the Croatian houses.

20        Q.   And how many Serb houses had to display the white sheet at this

21     time?

22        A.   None of them.

23        Q.   I'd like to just step back a little bit.  You described that they

24     asked you to open the gate and you did; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1778

 1        Q.   When you opened the gate to let them in, what, if anything, did

 2     you see outside?

 3        A.   Across the road, I could see a person lying on the ground, a

 4     neighbour of mine from the street, an elderly man who was 65 years old.

 5     He was dead and he was lying in the grass.

 6        Q.   What was his name?

 7        A.   Josip Kraljevic.

 8        Q.   Do you know what happened to his body?

 9        A.   In the afternoon, on that very same day, Croat inhabitants from

10     the village put him on a tractor-trailer and took him to the local

11     cemetery.

12        Q.   And just so I understand what you said.  You said in the

13     afternoon on that day Croat inhabitants put him on a tractor-trailer; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Under the escort of these armed Serbs.

16        Q.   Now, you describe seeing this group of people, Serbs you knew and

17     those you didn't know, rounding up Croats.  This group, could you

18     describe how they were dressed?

19        A.   They were a mixed bunch.  Some were wearing parts of police

20     uniforms; others were wearing civilian clothes and military uniforms.  It

21     was mixed up.  They didn't have complete uniforms.  The articles of

22     clothing they were wearing were of various kinds.

23        Q.   Did they all have weapons?

24        A.   All of them had automatic and semi-automatic weapons.

25        Q.   The ones who were known to you, what ethnicity were they?

Page 1779

 1        A.   Serbian ethnicity.

 2        Q.   How would you describe the general appearance of this group?

 3        A.   They looked like a paramilitary formation.  They were bedraggled,

 4     dirty.

 5        Q.   And to be very clear, the group that you're talking about

 6     included more than the people that you specifically named before; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Are you able to estimate how many were in this group?

10        A.   Well, about ten of them passed down my street.  There are three

11     or four streets so there must have been about 50 of them.

12        Q.   Were you called any derogatory names during this episode?

13        A.   Yes.  They called us Ustashas.  They cursed our Ustasha mothers.

14        Q.   Now, you mentioned seeing groups of Croats being rounded up.

15     Where were they taken?

16        A.   They took them to the machine work-shop.

17        Q.   And is that also the co-operative Zadruga building?

18        A.   Yes.  It's the agricultural co-operative or the agricultural

19     Zadruga.

20        Q.   And how were you able to see this happening?

21        A.   I was looking through the window.  I live in that street in the

22     centre, so I could see what was going on outside.

23        Q.   In addition to this paramilitary group that you described, did

24     you see anyone you believed to be a reserve or regular JNA soldier?

25        A.   Well, before night fell, tanks entered the village, and about

Page 1780

 1     ten lorries with reservists, JNA reservists, arrived.

 2        Q.   And did that happen on the 10th of October as well?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   There were lorries.  Did any other type of military vehicles come

 5     to Lovas that evening?

 6        A.   There were the tanks.  They entered the village.  About

 7     ten lorries of reservists, with equipment, military equipment arrived.

 8     They found accommodation, or they were billeted in the primary school in

 9     the centre.

10        Q.   And how far away is the primary school from the agricultural

11     co-operative, the work-shop?

12        A.   It's about 200 metres.

13        Q.   Where else were they housed?

14        A.   They were billeted at all -- or they were deployed at all the

15     exits from the village.  They set up check-points.  The houses were

16     mostly Croatian ones, the ones that were empty, and they entered the

17     empty ones, if they were empty; and if they weren't, they drove the

18     Croats out, and they took possession of their houses.

19        Q.   And how many Serb houses did they take over?

20        A.   Not a single one.

21        Q.   Now, when Lovas was attacked on the 10th of October, 1991, how

22     did the villagers defend themselves?

23        A.   They didn't.  No resistance was mounted.

24        Q.   You described certain areas where the JNA was stationed.  The

25     check-points -- you said that they set up check-points.  Who -- who was

Page 1781

 1     in charge of these check-points?

 2        A.   Well, the reservists.  At all the exits from the village, they

 3     had set up some sort of check-points, and that's where they were

 4     deployed.

 5        Q.   Do you know if some Croats managed to leave the village of Lovas

 6     that day?

 7        A.   Yes.  Most of the inhabitants, about 60 per cent of them, managed

 8     to flee that morning.

 9        Q.   And do you know generally in what area of Lovas they lived to

10     have been able to flee?

11        A.   Mostly they lived in the peripheral parts of the village.

12        Q.   And where did you live?

13        A.   In the centre.

14        Q.   And why didn't you leave?

15        A.   The children were young.  I was afraid for them.  I didn't want

16     to leave them behind.  I was afraid that they might come to harm.

17        Q.   You described to the Trial Chamber the white sheets that had to

18     be put on Croatian houses to identify them as Croatian houses.  Were

19     Croats identified in any other way?

20        A.   Yes.  All the Croats had to have white arm-bands on them.

21        Q.   And where did you get these white arm-bands from?

22        A.   Well, everyone took a white rag from their homes, and they had to

23     wear these white rags, these arm-bands.  The order was that we could not

24     move around if we didn't have such arm-bands.

25        Q.   When was that order given?

Page 1782

 1        A.   Immediately after they had entered the village, the Serbs.

 2        Q.   And what did the Serb residents have to wear to identify

 3     themselves as Serbs?

 4        A.   Nothing.  Those who were fit had to wear their uniforms, but they

 5     didn't have to wear any distinguishing marks of any kind.

 6        Q.   Did the order to wear the white arm-bands, was that only for the

 7     men, the Croatian men, in the village?

 8        A.   No, it concerned all the Croats:  Women and men.  The Hungarians

 9     who were there also had to wear a distinguishing mark.

10        Q.   And what was the distinguishing mark that they had to wear?

11        A.   The Serbs didn't have to wear any distinguishing marks.

12        Q.   You said:

13             "The Hungarians who were there also had to wear a distinguishing

14     mark."

15             What distinguishing mark?

16        A.   They also had to wear a white rag, or white arm-band.

17        Q.   Did there come a time that you learned that Croat villagers had

18     been killed during the attack on Lovas on the 10th of October?

19        A.   Yes.  Two or three days later, I learned that about 20 people had

20     been killed, including elderly persons and women.  On the whole, the

21     people killed were mostly elderly people who happened to be in the

22     streets at the time.  Most of them were killed by bombs or fire-arms --

23     by shells or fire-arms.

24        Q.   I'd like to turn your attention to what you described as being

25     JNA soldiers.  You described reservists.  And you describe this

Page 1783

 1     paramilitary group.  What -- did you learn what members of the

 2     paramilitary group called themselves?

 3        A.   They said they were the Jovics or some of them were the Orlovi,

 4     the Eagles.  Some of them were from the Dusan Silni group.  I don't know

 5     to which groups the various individuals belonged, but these are the names

 6     that they used for themselves.

 7        Q.   So you had the paramilitary group and then you had the people you

 8     described as JNA reservists.  Were there any other armed formations

 9     present in Lovas?

10        A.   There was also the group called the Valjevci.  These boys were

11     all strong men, well armed, wearing camouflage uniforms.  They were neat.

12     It was a real army, they were real troops.  It was some sort of a special

13     unit, in fact.

14        Q.   So you describe JNA reservists, paramilitaries and this Valjevci.

15     Were you able to estimate which group was the largest in number in Lovas?

16        A.   The JNA reservists.

17        Q.   You mentioned that JNA tanks came into Lovas on the

18     10th of October, 1991.  Were they generally in Lovas?

19        A.   They were at all the exits from village.  One was parked in the

20     centre in front of my house.  It was there day and night.  It would go

21     out at night and open fire, but these tanks were positioned at all the

22     exits from the village.

23        Q.   How did your daughters react to the tank that was in front of

24     your house?

25        A.   They were afraid, very afraid.  As soon as the engine was

Page 1784

 1     started, they would seek for a place to hide.  They were very afraid.

 2        Q.   I'd now like to ask you some questions about the Croatian homes

 3     in Lovas.  What happened to the Croatian homes during and after the

 4     attack on the village?

 5        A.   A lot of the Croatian houses were either set on fire or pierced

 6     by bullets.  The window-panes were shattered.  I had a neighbour, a

 7     woman, who was 70.  Her house was set on fire on that day in the morning.

 8        Q.   And how many Serb homes were set on fire or pierced by bullets?

 9        A.   None.

10        Q.   What happened to the Croatian homes that were not set on fire or

11     pierced by bullets?

12        A.   They were systematically looted.  Everything of value was taken

13     away.  The cars that had been left behind in the courtyards or in the

14     garages were driven away.

15        Q.   Do you know who burnt these houses, these Croatian houses?

16        A.   The Serb paramilitaries, both our locals and those who entered

17     the village from somewhere else.

18        Q.   And who looted these Croatian houses that you described?

19        A.   The Serbs, the paramilitaries.

20        Q.   What steps did you observe JNA soldiers, regular or reservists,

21     take to stop the looting of Croatian houses?

22        A.   They didn't do anything.

23        Q.   And what about the burning of the Croatian houses?  What steps

24     were taken to stop that?

25        A.   Nothing.  Again, nothing was done.

Page 1785

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, were you free to move around in the village to go

 2     wherever you wanted during this time?

 3        A.   No.  We had to be marked by white pieces of cloth, and we had to

 4     work.  We were given work assignments that we had to carry out and,

 5     otherwise, we were not allowed to move around the village.

 6        Q.   Was there a curfew?

 7        A.   From 1700 hours in the afternoon until 0700 in the morning.  And

 8     during those hours, you were not supposed to move around.  That was the

 9     curfew that we had to observe.

10        Q.   You said "we were given work assignments."  Did that include just

11     men?

12        A.   Men and women.  Croatian men and women.

13        Q.   Did you have electricity in your -- in your house at this time?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Why not?

16        A.   Because there was just one generator in the centre.  Two Croatian

17     electricians were given the task to remove the fuses from our houses,

18     Croatian houses, so we did not have electricity.  The other part of the

19     village where the -- the army and the Serb locals were living, they had

20     electricity.

21        Q.   What were your work assignments?  Let's talk about the first work

22     assignment you had.  What was it?

23        A.   I collected wood, twigs and branches, for the stove, for the

24     bread stove.

25        Q.   Did you get another assignment?

Page 1786

 1        A.   Yes.  One morning, Djuro Prodanovic, a local Serb, approached me

 2     and told me that I would be required to go to Dubovac.

 3        Q.   And what were you supposed to do in Dubovac?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's correction:  The word was

 5     "drums."

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was given a set of drums.  I was

 7     asked to go to a cross-roads.  I would be given a piece of paper with an

 8     inscription on it, and then I would drum to alert people's attention, and

 9     then I would read from that piece of paper what was written on it.

10             MS. BIERSAY:

11        Q.   And who would give you the document to be read to others?

12        A.   From either Djuro Prodanovic or Savo Klisuric.  They worked in

13     the municipality.

14        Q.   Could you give us an example of an announcement that you had to

15     make in this manner and describe how you went about doing it.

16        A.   For example, everybody who had a tractor and a trailer were

17     supposed to gather in front of the mechanical work-shop with their

18     tractors and they were ordered to go out into the forest and gather wood.

19        Q.   So could you describe the process.  You would get an announcement

20     that was supposed to be read; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And where would you go with your drumming to alert people?

23        A.   I would go to all the cross-roads in the village.

24        Q.   And then what would happen?

25        A.   I would drum and people already knew what that meant.  They would

Page 1787

 1     approach me.  And then I would read out to them the most recent order

 2     that I was given.

 3        Q.   And what ethnicity were the people who came out to hear the

 4     announcements that you had to give?

 5        A.   Croats.

 6        Q.   The announcements that you had, did they usually have a name and

 7     a signature on them?

 8        A.   Yes.  On the right-hand side, at the bottom, Ljuban Devetak's

 9     name was printed out, and there was his signature as well.

10        Q.   Now, which word do you use to describe what you had to read?

11     Were they announcements or were they orders?

12        A.   Those were orders.

13        Q.   And who was Ljuban Devetak?  What was his role in Lovas village?

14        A.   He was referred to as the president of the village.

15        Q.   What was Ljuban Devetak's connection to Lovas?

16        A.   He is a native of Lovas.  His parents lived there.  He himself

17     resided in Osijek.

18        Q.   And how did you learn that he held this position as the president

19     of the village of Lovas?

20        A.   I heard that from conversations by the local Serbs who talked

21     about that.

22        Q.   And did you come to learn in this manner as well the name of the

23     local commander of the TO forces in the village?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And who is that?

Page 1788

 1        A.   Milan Radojcic.

 2        Q.   And what do you mean by TO forces?  Who -- who were those people?

 3        A.   Those were local Serbs who were armed.  And when they moved

 4     around the -- the village, they always carried arms.

 5        Q.   Did you also learn in this manner the -- who the -- who was

 6     commanding the JNA after the takeover of Lovas village?

 7        A.   Yes.  Passes were being issued to people who had to work in the

 8     fields outside of the village.  They had to obtain passes and the passes

 9     were issued by the military command 4795 and they were signed by

10     Marko Kovac, Captain Marko Kovac.

11        Q.   What colour were these passes?

12        A.   Red.

13        Q.   And in the same manner that you described for the others, did you

14     come to learn who the police commander was?

15        A.   The commander of the police was Milan Devcic.  His father was a

16     Croat and his mother was a Serb.

17        Q.   In carrying out your work assignments, did you learn that there

18     were Croats detained in different parts of Lovas village?

19        A.   Yes.  They were detained in the basement of the town hall

20     building where coal was kept and also in Boro Keser's house in the centre

21     where the police station was.

22        Q.   So you describe that Boro -- is it Keser?  Is that the name?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   That they were kept in his house in the centre where the police

25     station was.

Page 1789

 1              Was it originally a police station before the takeover?

 2        A.   No.  It was a private house that used to belong to a Croatian

 3     person.

 4        Q.   Now, I am going to test our video to see if it is working.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would this be an appropriate time, Ms. Biersay?

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  If it suits the Chamber, absolutely.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, we will take our second break now

 8     and come back at 12.45.  The court usher will escort you out of the

 9     courtroom.  Thank you.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

14                          [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

17                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

18             MS. BIERSAY:

19        Q.   Now turning to tab 22, which is 65 ter number 6350.

20             And before we play it, Mr. Witness, before the break, you

21     described people being detained in the house of Boro Keser; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And also in the cellar of the municipal building; is that

25     correct?

Page 1790

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  So I'd now like to play a short video-clip, and

 3     from this 65 ter number, it begins at minute 3 and 20 seconds, and we

 4     will play until minute 3 and 40 seconds.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  We're now paused at 3 minutes, 19 seconds.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you recognise the structure that's in that

 9     photograph?

10        A.   Yes.  This house used to belong to a Croat, and this is where

11     reservists were billeted.

12        Q.   In Lovas; is that correct?

13        A.   In Lovas, correct.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15              MS. BIERSAY:  Now pausing at 3 minutes and 35 seconds.

16        Q.   Do you recognise the structure in that photograph, in that still?

17        A.   I do.  This is Boro Keser's house where the police were billeted.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Now turning to tab 23, if I may ask the Registry

19     for 65 ter number 6351, page 16.

20        Q.   And, Mr. Witness, do you recognise the structure depicted in that

21     photograph?

22        A.   Yes.  This is the municipal building with the cellar, or a

23     basement.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  And if I may ask for some assistance so that

25     Mr. Witness can mark the cellar that he just described.

Page 1791

 1             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   And could you describe for the Trial Chamber your interactions

 4     with the detainees in that cellar.

 5        A.   When I was on the drumming duty, I also lit fire in the municipal

 6     building, and the coal was in the basement.  The detainees were there.

 7     They would normally load my bucket with coal, they would pass it on to

 8     me, and then I would take it to the interior of the building where the

 9     stove was.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time could we have the -- we tender the

12     marked version of this photograph.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P304.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MS. BIERSAY:

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'll now like to --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, the video you showed, is it

21     tendered?

22             MS. BIERSAY:  For now we'd like to have it marked for

23     identification.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  That's -- let's mark it for

25     identification.  Pending what, Ms. Biersay?

Page 1792

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  I believe that my colleagues will address other

 2     parts of the video and then we will tender the entire video.

 3             If there's no objection to it being tendered now, I'll do that

 4     now.

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, we object to -- to admittance -- to

 8     admitting of whole video in -- in the evidence.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  On what basis?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That we didn't see it.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Perhaps I could make a suggestion.

13             Perhaps we can make a clip of the very, very short portion that

14     we showed and tender that as -- as a separate exhibit, and then when my

15     colleagues address additional parts, we may have to do the same thing if

16     there's still an objection to tendering the whole video.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  So, for now we will tender the clip.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I thought you would say:  And now we will object.

20     Well, it's okay.  It's a good idea.  So you will provide with us a

21     20-second clip.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Exactly.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Yeah, let's give it an exhibit

24     number, then, for the clip.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The video-clip, 20 seconds played in court, shall

Page 1793

 1     be assigned Exhibit Number P305.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.  Ms. Biersay.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'd like to direct your attention to one week after

 5     the takeover, October 17th, 1991.  On that day, did you also have

 6     drumming duties?

 7        A.   Yes.  The idea was for all the male villagers to gather in front

 8     of the mechanics shop, all between the ages of 18 and 55 where -- and

 9     when they gathered, they would be told about some work that had to be

10     done.

11        Q.   And when you say "the idea was for all the male villagers to

12     gather," how -- how did you convey that idea?  Was it something in

13     writing that you had to read?

14        A.   Yes, there was something I had to read out.  I had been given a

15     document by Djuro Prodanovic and I was supposed to that read that

16     document to the people.

17        Q.   And when you said "all male villagers," do you mean both Serbs

18     and non-Serbs were supposed to gather in front of the mechanics shop?

19        A.   Croats were those who mostly came to such gatherings, and a few

20     Hungarians that were still there.

21        Q.   And the people who were told to report to the front of the

22     mechanics shop, what was their ethnicity?

23        A.   They were Croats.

24        Q.   And do you remember the approximate time they were supposed to

25     report to the mechanics shop?

Page 1794

 1        A.   1700 hours.

 2        Q.   And what happened at 1700 hours?

 3        A.   At 1700 hours, we were encircled by a group of the Valjevo men

 4     who were in the village.  They searched us, one by one, and took us to

 5     the courtyard.  There were two rows of benches in the courtyard that were

 6     prepared for us, and we were ordered to sit down on those benches.

 7        Q.   Was this the first time you'd been searched or had you been

 8     searched before?

 9        A.   That was the first time we were searched.  They took away

10     cigarettes, cigarette lighters, nail clips.

11        Q.   You said that you were ordered to sit down on the benches.  What

12     happened after you sat down on the benches?

13        A.   After that, Devetak, Ljuban Devetak, came, and he separated

14     five people who had worked in the bakers shop.  They normally worked

15     night shifts.  On that occasion, he separated the five men from the group

16     and sent them to the bakery.

17        Q.   How -- how many men, Croatian men, appeared at 5.00 as ordered in

18     front of the mechanics shop?

19        A.   About 70.

20        Q.   After these five were separated from the -- the group of 70, what

21     happened next?

22        A.   They compiled a list, put our names down.  They said we had to

23     sit down on the benches and said we shouldn't turn around or get up.

24     They said that we should just sit calmly on those benches, and above us

25     there were automatic weapons and machine-guns on a sort of elevation

Page 1795

 1     above us.

 2        Q.   And who was in charge of these automatic weapons and machine-guns

 3     that you describe?

 4        A.   It was this group, the Valjevac group.

 5        Q.   And what happened next?

 6        A.   We spent the entire night sitting on the benches.  They would

 7     pass by us.  They would pass through the rows and then hit us, punch us,

 8     or hit with us the rifle-butts, in the kidneys, in the head, in the

 9     stomach.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Now turning to tab 23, which is 65 -- if I could

11     please have 65 ter 6351 displayed, page 7.

12        Q.   Do you recognise the image in that photograph that appears before

13     you?

14        A.   Yes, that is the yard of the machine work-shop.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  And if I could ask for some assistance for the

16     witness in helping to mark the photograph.

17        Q.   I'd like you to draw two lines representing where you had to sit

18     in the courtyard.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And now if you could mark with an X the area that you described

21     as being an elevation above you where there were automatic weapons and

22     machine-guns aimed at you.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we tender the marked version of this

Page 1796

 1     photograph.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P306.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:

 6        Q.   You described that you spent the entire night sitting on those

 7     benches and being beaten.  Could you describe for the Trial Chamber what

 8     happened in the morning?

 9        A.   In the morning, they entered the yard, Ljuban Devetak and the

10     commander from the Valjevo group, and they tended to call him Bokser.  I

11     don't know what his name was.  In any event, the -- they called out the

12     names of the people and, as they did so, they would beat them with metal

13     batons, with tubes, with knives, and they separated part of the men in

14     the -- in the yard.

15        Q.   And what part of the men was separated in the yard?

16        A.   Well, the men who were sitting there, who spent the night sitting

17     there with us, they called out Luketic Pero, Ante and Djuro.  It's a

18     father and his two sons.  As they weren't there, they sent some men to

19     fetch them.

20        Q.   And when you say "they," because you say "they" a few times, are

21     you referring to this same group?

22        A.   Yes, the Valjevci, the group from Valjevo, Ljuban Devetak and

23     this person called Bokser.

24        Q.   You said that they called out Luketic Pero, Ante and Djuro.

25     Are those three people related?

Page 1797

 1        A.   Yes.  Pero is the father and the other two are his sons.

 2        Q.   And while some went to gather these three people who were missing

 3     from the roll-call, what -- what continued to happen?

 4        A.   They continued calling the people who were sitting there out and

 5     they would beat them.  In the meantime, these two men returned with Pero

 6     and his sons, and as soon as they arrived, they started beating one of

 7     them.  Petronije stabbed Ante with a knife and he fell to the ground.  He

 8     was bleeding.  He went into a corner.  They continued beating him with

 9     whatever they could.

10        Q.   And what happened to the other two, the other son, and the

11     father, Petar?

12        A.   They were beaten in front of us.  They were also set aside,

13     separated from this group of men who had previously been beaten up.

14        Q.   What happened next?

15        A.   Then Ljuban and Bokser suddenly spoke to each other, tried to

16     agree on something, and said that they would go outside the village to

17     see if there were any Ustashas outside the village, in the vicinity of

18     the village.

19        Q.   And what happened after that discussion?

20        A.   Gradually took us out, lined us up in two columns.  We were on

21     the internal side, and they were on the external side, to the left and

22     right of us.  We set off in a column to the centre and then we turned

23     left down a slope that led to the village.

24        Q.   Approximately how many of you set off in these two columns?

25        A.   About 50 Croats.

Page 1798

 1        Q.   And why only 50?

 2        A.   The others remained there.  They couldn't walk because they had

 3     been beaten up.

 4        Q.   After you turned left down the slope that led to the village,

 5     what happened?

 6        A.   Along the way we saw a man lying by a curve.  He had been covered

 7     with some sort of a cover.  He was dead.  We arrived at the check-point,

 8     the reservists' check-point.  They lifted the ramp and we passed through

 9     with the Valjevci, with the group from Valjevo.

10        Q.   And what happened after you passed the -- through the

11     check-point?

12        A.   Well, they stopped us there, and then they lined up on the

13     inside, and we were on the outside.  The reason they gave for this was

14     that if the Ustasha opened fire, they wanted us to be targeted.  They

15     wanted to avoid being targeted themselves.

16        Q.   After there was this change in position, what was the next thing

17     that happened?

18        A.   We continued down the road towards the exit from the village, and

19     at a bend in the road, about 5- or 600 metres further down the road,

20     Bosko Bodjanac stopped us.  He'd been hit with a rifle-butt and he

21     couldn't continue.  They said he should continue or they would kill him.

22     He said he couldn't.  He stopped.  We heard a burst of fire and that was

23     it.  We didn't dare turn around, and we continued as far as djetelina [as

24     interpreted].

25             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, I'm now turning to tab 20, and may I

Page 1799

 1     please ask the Registry to display 65 ter 6276.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  We continued as far

 3     as the clover field.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:

 5        Q.   Do you recognise what village this aerial is of?

 6        A.   Yes, it's the entrance to Lovas.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  And if I may ask for some assistance for the

 8     witness.


10        Q.   The first thing that I'd like to you do is to draw a big circle

11     over -- around what you just said was the clover field.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And if you're able to -- to see it on this screen, could you show

14     to the Trial Chamber the route that you took from the mechanic shop

15     towards the area that you just circled.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   The -- the starting point of that red line that you made, what is

18     at the very beginning of it?

19        A.   That would be the machine work-shop.

20        Q.   And are you able to see on this aerial the -- the place where the

21     check-point was, approximately?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   And could you number that as 1, please.  Just with the number 1

24     in the -- at the check-point position.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 1800

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we tender the marked version of this

 3     aerial photograph.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P307.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:

 8        Q.   When did you realise that you were heading towards the clover

 9     field?

10        A.   When they stopped us there when we arrived in the area, they told

11     us we should turn right and go up the slope towards the clover field.  We

12     were supposed to advance hand in hand, and we were supposed to trample on

13     the field, on the clover field, to the left and to the right.

14        Q.   Now directing your attention again to this, which is 62 --

15     65 ter 6276, the unmarked version, could you again, in a very big circle,

16     circle the clover field.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And could you draw an arrow to show the direction in which they

19     first asked you to walk.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Thank you.  They -- you described how you were supposed to

22     advance hand in hand and that you were supposed to trample the field to

23     the left and to the right.

24             Would you feel comfortable standing up and demonstrating that

25     motion to the Trial Chamber?

Page 1801

 1        A.   No problem.  I can.

 2        Q.   You can try standing up and we'll see if your headphones will

 3     remain -- maybe they'll stay on.  Let's try.

 4        A.   As we were advancing, we had to trample on what was in front of

 5     us.

 6        Q.   You describe this as -- as a clover field.  How -- was there, in

 7     fact, clover bushes on the field at the time?

 8        A.   Yes, clovers.

 9        Q.   And how tall were those?

10        A.   About 30 centimetres.

11        Q.   And did they explain to you why you had to do this?

12        A.   All they said is that we had to trample on what was on in front

13     of us to make sure that no mines had been laid there.

14        Q.   And did they tell you when you -- before you started doing the

15     sweeping motion that you were looking for mines?

16        A.   They said that we should pass through and that we should trample

17     on the clovers to make sure that no mines had been laid there.  Or

18     something of that sort.

19        Q.   Now, what happened next?

20        A.   When we arrived at the end, they sent us back.  We turned to the

21     left and set off in the other direction to do the same thing.  We had to

22     trample on the clovers, go to the other end.

23        Q.   And could you please draw an arrow in the second direction that

24     you were asked to move in.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 1802

 1        Q.   Thank you.  So, Mr. Witness, I'd like to go back to make sure

 2     that I understood you correctly.

 3             You described walking down to the -- the clover field; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And they -- the group that escorted you showed you in which

 6     direction to walk across the clover field; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And you showed the Trial Chamber how that was done, and you held

 9     out your hands.  Why -- why were -- did you hold out your hands in your

10     demonstration?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And why were your hands out?

13        A.   Well, because we had to link up in that way, by holding hands.

14        Q.   And when they told you to go across the clover field, they

15     described to you how to do it; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And what happened?

18        A.   When we set off again, suddenly someone cried out, There's a

19     wire.  And you could hear an explosion.  And in a second or two, fire was

20     opened.  They said if something happened we were not to lie down, but

21     when they started firing -- well, whoever managed to do so, lied down and

22     then when we lied down, when we were on the ground, we could hear the

23     whizzing of bullets around us.

24        Q.   What -- when someone cried out, There's a wire, were you

25     surprised by that?

Page 1803

 1        A.   Yes.  We didn't see it.  We only saw the clovers.  We were

 2     surprised.  There was a wire and then an explosion, so we were surprised.

 3        Q.   Did they explain to you before you started sweeping your feet

 4     back and forth that there were mines in that clover field?

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's asked and answered, and it is leading.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  Well, I can ask it another way.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Go ahead.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:

 9        Q.   What did they tell you about mines, if anything, before you

10     started sweeping your feet back and forth?

11        A.   They said we were going to sweep, do the sweeping motion, to make

12     sure that no mines were there.

13        Q.   And then there was the explosion; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And then what happened?

16        A.   Fire was opened.  At one point in time, they said that they

17     should cease fire.  Joco was wounded, that's what we heard was said

18     behind our backs because a group of them was on the road and the other

19     group was behind our backs, about 15 metres or 20 metres behind us.  They

20     started shouting, and they said that Joco was wounded and they ceased

21     fire.  We couldn't see that.  We could only hear them.  They were looking

22     for bandages.  He had been wounded in the leg.  That's what we concluded

23     from what they were saying.  Then they said if anyone was healthy, if

24     anyone could stand up, they should do so.  Those of us who could stood up

25     and they said whoever is wounded should raise their hands.  This was

Page 1804

 1     done.  And then --

 2        Q.   One minute.  Sorry, Mr. Witness.  Slow you down for a little bit.

 3     It is going very fast, and the interpreters have to keep up with us,

 4     okay?  So we'll have to try to go just a little bit slower.

 5        A.   Very well.

 6        Q.   You described that the -- there was an explosion, and that you

 7     heard shooting whizzing over your head, and that you heard screams; is

 8     that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you laid down because you were afraid.  You laid on the

11     ground.

12        A.   Yes.  Because -- we laid down because we were afraid, although

13     they said we shouldn't.  But we were afraid, so it was a reflex when we

14     lay down.

15        Q.   Did any vehicles go by you at this time?

16        A.   A military Pinzgauer arrived.  It stopped.  A JNA officer got out

17     of it.  He asked the men from Valjevo, the Valjevo group, about what had

18     happened.  They said that the men had come across mines and they said

19     that the Ustasha had laid the mines.  But he said that it wasn't the

20     Ustashas, that the army had done this when they entered the village.  He

21     said that the wounded should be collected and taken to a doctor, and

22     those who were in good health, he said, were to be returned to the

23     village.

24             He got back in the military vehicle and then drove away towards

25     the exit from the village.

Page 1805

 1        Q.   After he left, what were you told to do, if anything?

 2        A.   The Valjevo group ordered us to move on and to clear the mines.

 3     These were trip-wire mines so when you approach them you can see them.

 4     We had to sweep them.  I myself deactivated five of them, took -- you

 5     take them off the base, take out the explosives, and you would then take

 6     these parts to the -- to the road, which is where they were.

 7        Q.   When you were engaged in the de-mining process, was there anyone

 8     still on the clover field?

 9        A.   All the Croats who remained there, we continued to sweep aside

10     the clovers, in fact, and to de-mine the mines that we came across.

11        Q.   And at that time, where were the wounded?

12        A.   The wounded and dead remained lying where they were, behind our

13     backs.

14        Q.   On the clover field or somewhere else?

15        A.   On the clover field.

16        Q.   Now, the dead laying on the clover field, do you know how they

17     died?

18        A.   Most of them sustained bullet wounds to the back.

19        Q.   After you engaged in the de-mining of the -- the field, what

20     happened next?

21        A.   A lorry arrived from the village.  We helped take the wounded to

22     the lorry, but while we were helping them, Mr. Stjepan Pejic stood on a

23     mine and he was wounded in the leg.  And Ivica Mujic, who was helping

24     him, had also been wounded earlier on.  He had been wounded by a -- a

25     small mine, a very small mine, that we call Pasteta or paté;

Page 1806

 1     anti-personnel mine.

 2        Q.   Was there anyone else who remained on the field while you were

 3     moving the -- the wounded?

 4        A.   The dead bodies remained there.

 5        Q.   Do you know someone by the name of Josip Turkalj?

 6        A.   Yes.  That lad was wounded in the spine.  And he kept on saying

 7     that he did not have legs.  We loaded him onto the lorry as well, but he

 8     succumbed to his wounds while he was being transported to Sid.

 9        Q.   You said "he kept on saying he did not have legs."  Did he, in

10     fact, have legs?

11        A.   Yes, he did have legs.  But I suppose that that part of his body

12     was numb as a result of his wound in the spine.

13        Q.   And what caused his wound in the spine, if you know?

14        A.   A bullet.

15        Q.   Did you do anything else before leaving the -- the clover field

16     at that time?

17        A.   We removed the mines or, rather, we deactivated them.  We loaded

18     our wounded friends into the lorry and then they took us back to the

19     mechanical shop.

20             On the way we saw Bosko Bodjanac's body at the curb where he was

21     killed.  In the shop, we were again assigned to various duties.  I

22     personally had to dig a trench in front of the school, which is centrally

23     located in the village, so I saw one of those Valjevo guy whom they

24     called Nikola driving in a white Golf, with Darko and Zeljko Palic as

25     passengers in the car.  Those guys are dead.  We learnt a few days later

Page 1807

 1     that their bodies were discovered in the basement.  They had been killed.

 2        Q.   I'd like to take you back a step to when you arrived at the

 3     mechanical work-shop.

 4             You previously described that some of the men who were beaten

 5     and -- there were too beaten to go with you to the clover field.  Were

 6     those men still at the mechanical work-shop?

 7        A.   There was nobody there.  There was a lot of blood, but they were

 8     nowhere to be seen.  They were not in the courtyard, actually.

 9        Q.   Did you learn what happened to the men who remained behind while

10     you went to the -- the minefield?

11        A.   All those men were killed.

12        Q.   And how do you know that?

13        A.   Some friends from the village who went there a day or two later

14     actually found their bodies in the basements and cellars of the houses

15     where they were either shot dead or killed with hand-grenades.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, we'd seek the admission of the -- the

17     marked version of the map [sic] currently on the screen, which is

18     annotated 65 ter number 6276.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P308.  Thank

21     you.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Now turning to TAB 10, which is 65 ter 2239.  May I

23     ask that that be displayed by the Registry, please.

24        Q.   Do you recognise this hand-drawn document?

25        A.   This is a road from the mechanical shop in the village to the

Page 1808

 1     clover field where all those mines were.

 2        Q.   Did you draw this map?

 3        A.   No.

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It will.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:

 9        Q.   Directing your attention to the bottom of that map, the block

10     marked number 1, do you recognise what that is on the map?

11        A.   This is the mechanical work-shop.

12        Q.   And directing your attention to number 2?

13        A.   Number 2 is the school.

14        Q.   And who was stationed in the school in October 1991?

15        A.   Reservists.

16        Q.   And what is marked as number 3?

17        A.   The administrative building of the agricultural co-operative.

18        Q.   And number 4?

19        A.   The police.

20        Q.   And when you say "the police," whose house is that?

21        A.   Boro Keser's house, a private house.  But the police moved in,

22     and they interrogated people there.

23        Q.   And now directing your attention to number 5.

24        A.   Number 5 is a private house.  Reservists were billeted there as

25     well.

Page 1809

 1        Q.   And what is depicted at the number 7 position?

 2        A.   Number 7 is the curve where Bosko Bodjanac was killed.

 3        Q.   And what is the number 8 position?

 4        A.   Number 8 is on the clover field and denotes the direction that we

 5     had to take first.

 6        Q.   And what about number -- the number 9 position.

 7        A.   Number 9 is the beginning of the minefield.  The mines had been

 8     laying there in four rows.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  And if I could ask for some assistance for the

10     witness.

11        Q.   So that, Mr. Witness, if you could mark the -- the check-point

12     that you described in your testimony.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And could you mark that with a number 1, please.  Actually, how

15     about a letter A.  Could you change it to an A.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.  And directing your attention to the number 8, could

18     you draw an arrow to follow the direction in which you were first asked

19     to -- to walk.  In the clover field.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Now number 10, what is that?

22        A.   That's another direction.  When we were told to walk in that

23     direction towards the mines.

24        Q.   And could you draw another arrow to depict that direction.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 1810

 1        Q.   Could you put these -- the first arrow that you did, could you

 2     put the letter B next to it, please.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And C next to the second arrow.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Now, while you were in the minefield, where were the Valjevci who

 7     were guarding you and the group?

 8        A.   They were on the road, when we started walking in the first

 9     direction.  And later on, some remained on the road, and some of them

10     came behind our backs, some 15 to 20 metres away from us.

11        Q.   Could you draw an X to show the starting position where they were

12     when you first started walking across the minefield.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And could you now draw a line to show where they were behind your

15     backs, as you just described to the Trial Chamber.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And, if possible, could you put a D at the very beginning of that

18     line so that we know that it's attached to the D.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Did -- did you have an opportunity to go where that X is

21     yourself, as you were moving -- helping to move the wounded?

22        A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, we went up there only when we brought

23     the mines.  As we removed the minutes, we went to the road.  There were

24     up there, on the road.  That area, the road area, is somewhat higher up

25     than the clover field.  The difference is about 3 to 4 metres.

Page 1811

 1        Q.   And from where you stood, what could you see of the clover field?

 2        A.   We could see that there were four lines that had been trampled

 3     on, where the soil had been trampled on.  We could tell that that's where

 4     the mines had been laid.

 5        Q.   And what conclusion did you draw from seeing that?

 6        A.   They knew that the mines were there.  They could see the traces

 7     from where they were standing, and they could also see the mines from the

 8     road.

 9        Q.   To the -- where that number 9 is, there are four -- four rows.

10     What -- what are those rows?

11        A.   The four rows of mines.

12        Q.   And is it from that area that you physically took mines from?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we would tender both the unmarked

15     version of this hand-drawn map, as well as the marked version.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Why would we need the unmarked version,

17     Ms. Biersay?

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Just so that the record is clear, Your Honour.

19     Because I'm just concerned that maybe some of the -- the markings have

20     obscured some of the lines there were there originally.  But if the

21     Trial Chamber is satisfied that it's clear enough, then the marked

22     version is sufficient.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think it is.

24             So let's admit and mark the marked version, please.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P309.  Thank

Page 1812

 1     you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  To be redacted, please.

 8             JUDGE MINDUA:  I'm sorry.

 9             [Interpretation] Witness, you told us that the place -- that from

10     the place where they were, they were in a position to know that there

11     were mines there.

12             Do you know who had laid those mines in that field in the first

13     place?  Which army, which military was that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A JNA officer confirmed that it was

15     the military that laid the mines when they entered the village.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The same group, you mean, the same

17     group that laid the mines also asked you to deactivate the mines, to

18     remove them from the area; right?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The Valjevo men asked us to

20     remove them, and the JNA officer who was standing there after the

21     explosion told them that it had been the JNA that laid the mines when

22     they first entered the village.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that.  But those

24     who were behind you and who were watching and who knew where the mines

25     were, were those the men who had laid the mines when they entered the

Page 1813

 1     village?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't know that.  I don't know

 3     that it was them.  I don't know whether it was them who laid the mines or

 4     somebody else.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My last question is

 6     this:  The detained persons, those who were responsible for looking for

 7     the mines and sweeping the clover field, were they placed in some sort of

 8     a formation in order to be able to better detect and remove the mines?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm not sure how -- and, of course, I don't know

12     how the last question of Judge Mindua have been -- has been translated

13     into the witness's language, but definitely in the English language,

14     there is a little confusion.  Judge Mindua didn't ask whether they were

15     placed in a certain formation but whether they had some training, special

16     training, to be able to de-mine.

17             So perhaps the witness could answer that question, how -- how --

18     how was it that you were able to deactivate the mines?  I mean, I

19     wouldn't know how to do it.  How did you know?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the guys from Valjevo, he

21     shouted at us that we should be careful of the wire and that we should

22     pull the wire in an opposite direction from the mine and that's how you

23     deactivated the mine.  Then the mine could be removed.  When it was

24     removed, we were supposed to bring the mines up to the road to them.

25     After that initial explanation and when we succeeded the first time, we

Page 1814

 1     were able to continue on our own.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So you were told how to do it.

 3             Now a follow-up question to that is:  Why didn't they tell you

 4     that in the first place?  Why did -- if you have any idea, why did they,

 5     first of all --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You don't know.  Thank you.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, without going back to the precise point

10     in the transcript, my recollection is that at some point when you were

11     being marched to the clover field, somebody from the -- as I recall and

12     please correct me if I'm wrong, from the Valjevo -- this group had said

13     it was the Ustashas who had laid the mines.  And then later, of course,

14     your explanation to Judge Mindua is that, at some subsequent point, one

15     of the JNA officers said that they had laid the mines when they entered

16     the village.

17             Did I understand you correctly that at some point earlier in your

18     march, one of this group who was taking you there had accused the Ustasha

19     of having laid the mines?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Ms. Biersay, proceed, please.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'd like to, like the Trial Chamber, go back to the

25     de-mining that you -- you did.

Page 1815

 1             You described that while you were laying on the ground that a

 2     vehicle, at some point, drove by and stopped; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And what kind of vehicle was it?

 5        A.   It was a military vehicle known as a Pinzgauer.

 6        Q.   And who, if anyone, came out of that vehicle?

 7        A.   An officer of the Yugoslav army got out of that vehicle.

 8        Q.   Did someone from the Valjevo group say something to this JNA

 9     officer?

10        A.   They told him that it was the Ustasha that had laid the mines, to

11     which he responded, No, it's not true.  It was the army that laid the

12     mines when they entered the village, and that the wounded should be

13     transported to the hospital and that the rest of us who were not wounded

14     should be brought back to the village.

15        Q.   So if I understand correctly, it was while you were still in the

16     mine [sic] that you got the information from the JNA --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Well, let me -- I know you know where I'm going but I have to

19     finish for the record.

20             So it's at this point that the JNA officer told you -- told the

21     Valjevo group that the mines had been laid before by the JNA; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And just so that I -- I understand correctly, it's after this

25     officer stopped that you went about disarming -- collecting the mines and

Page 1816

 1     disarming them; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Because you were told to.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And who told you to?

 6        A.   The guys from Valjevo.  Because the officer got back into the car

 7     and drove off in the direction of the village, whereas the Valjevo guys

 8     made us disarm the mines and eliminate them.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, I'm looking at the time and I wonder

10     if this would be a good place to stop for the day.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We still have two minutes, but we could stop if

12     you're moving to another topic.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  If we have two minutes, I would like to turn to

14     tab 22, which is 65 ter 6350, which is the video.  And at this time we

15     would play the segment from 13 minute and 32 seconds to 13 minute and

16     42 seconds.  And that should take care of our two minutes.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could stop and go back to the starting

19     point of 13 minute and 32 seconds.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you recognise that view?

21        A.   Yes.  This is the minefield.

22        Q.   Did it look differently in 19 -- in October 1991?

23        A.   Yes.  The monument was not there, and the only thing that was

24     there was clover.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could advance the time further.

Page 1817

 1        Q.   And the direction that we're looking at, at 13 minute,

 2     40 seconds, what is that?

 3        A.   We can see the beginning of the minefield in the clover field,

 4     and we see the curve where Bosko Bodjanac was killed.

 5        Q.   And from this perspective are we looking now towards the centre

 6     of the Lovas village?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we would also tender this short

10     clip which we will prepare and give to the Registry.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For the moment, Ms. Biersay, we only have the

13     full video so you will provide us with the clips.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Correct.  And I will give you the 65 ter numbers

15     for that tomorrow for the record.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

17             Shall we admit and mark it right now or wait until tomorrow,

18     Mr. Registrar?

19             Let's give it a number, then.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P310.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Witness, this is the end of your today's testimony.  You're

24     not released as a witness.  You'll have to come back tomorrow morning.

25     You're still under oath.  That means that you can't discuss your

Page 1818

 1     testimony with anybody, and it also means that you're not allowed to

 2     speak to any of the parties.

 3             Do you understand that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  The court usher will escort

 6     you out of the courtroom now.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

12                           November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.