Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1819

 1                           Wednesday, 28 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, may we have -- can we -- sorry.  Can you call the

 8     case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

16     Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett, Lisa Biersay and Case Manager

17     Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  And for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And just to tell you, my computer doesn't work.

23     I have technical problems.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We'll look into that.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 1820

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, the technician is on his -- the

 2     technician is on his way.  Can we, in the meantime, start with the

 3     witness?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I follow the transcript on the

 5     middle computer --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- on the screen.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness may be brought in.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just for the record, the Registrar received two

12     video-clips, 65 ter numbers -- that were -- the ones that were tendered

13     yesterday, 65 ter numbers 35 -- sorry.  6350.2.  And 6350.3 and they have

14     been given Exhibit Numbers P305 and P310 respectively.

15             Good morning, Mr. Witness.  You may sit down.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I would remind you that you're still under oath.

18             Ms. Biersay.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

21                           WITNESS:  GH-095 [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Witness.

25        A.   Good morning.


Page 1821

 1        Q.   I wanted to ask you some questions about the minefield killings

 2     you described yesterday.

 3             When the Valjevci explained to you how to disarm the mines, was

 4     that before or after the first explosion?

 5        A.   After the first explosion.

 6        Q.   Was that explanation before or after the detainees lay dead in

 7     the clover field?

 8        A.   They were all -- already dead, in the field.

 9        Q.   Yesterday you explained the method that was given to you for

10     disarming the mines.  The explanation that you were given, could you have

11     used the method they described to you, holding hands with the other men,

12     and sweeping your feet in front of you?

13        A.   No.  We were crawling forward, and as we came to a mine, we had

14     to disarm it.

15        Q.   How long did it take for you and the other men to disarm the

16     mines?

17        A.   About an hour and a half, approximately.

18        Q.   Where were the dead bodies during this hour and a half that you

19     were disarming the mines?

20        A.   Both the dead and the wounded were behind us, but they were still

21     there in the field.

22        Q.   How many explosions were there total?

23        A.   There was one.  And then, after all that, as we were loading the

24     wounded and the dead onto the lorry, there was another explosion of a

25     small anti-personnel mine.

Page 1822

 1        Q.   So, if I understand correctly, you and the others disarmed the

 2     mines, and there was still one that was there and that went off; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   You describe in your testimony yesterday Stjepan Pejic.  I

 6     believe you said that his toes were blown off?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And I also believe that you say that that happened while he was

 9     helping the wounded off of the field; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.  He was helping Ivica Mujic who was wounded during the first

11     round of shooting.  And then he stepped on that small anti-personnel

12     mine.

13        Q.   So it was Stjepan Pejic who was helping Mujic.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, what, if anything, were you wearing on your arm when

16     you were marched to the minefield?

17        A.   All of us had white pieces of cloth around our arms.

18        Q.   Was that by choice, wearing those white pieces of cloth?

19        A.   No, not really.  We had to.  That was pursuant to an order by the

20     military and the local Serbs.

21        Q.   When was the next time you went to the minefield?

22        A.   On the following day, in the morning, we went there in order to

23     load the bodies of our dead friends onto a lorry.

24        Q.   Who told you to do that?

25        A.   Our local Serbs in the village.

Page 1823

 1        Q.   Do you recall how many of -- of you went to collect these bodies?

 2        A.   There were either six or seven of us.

 3        Q.   Did anyone escort you to the minefield or did you go on your own?

 4        A.   We had escorts.  They were local Serbs.  And there was a lorry

 5     which was driven by Milan Vorkapic, also known as Trnda.  He was parked

 6     on the road.  They were there next to the lorry and we entered the

 7     minefield, and we recovered the bodies of our dead friends one by one.

 8     We used a ladder to load the bodies onto the lorry.

 9        Q.   I would like to take you back just a few steps.

10             The local Serbs who escorted you to the minefield to recover

11     bodies, were they armed or unarmed?

12        A.   They were armed and uniformed.  They wore JNA uniforms.

13        Q.   As you were going down that hill again on the second day, do

14     you --

15             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Ms. Biersay.

16             Mr. Witness, in response to your last answer to counsel's

17     question, how, then -- if I understood you correctly, the local Serbs

18     wore JNA uniforms.  How then was it possible to distinguish the,

19     quote/unquote, local Serbs from the members of the military?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our local Serbs put on JNA uniforms

21     later on, and those that were standing on the side wore very colourful

22     uniforms.  They were not uniforms.  Some of the garments were civilian,

23     and the others were military clothing.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

25             Yes, Ms. Biersay.

Page 1824

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, if I could take you back.  The day after your

 3     friends were killed in the minefield, you're going to collect the bodies,

 4     and you start walking down the hill.  Do you remember the first time you

 5     saw the minefields on that second day with the dead bodies of your

 6     friends?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What went through your mind when you saw that scene?

 9        A.   It was very painful.  Bosko Bodjanac was the first one who was

10     loaded onto the lorry on the curb.  When we arrived there -- we had

11     passed there the day before, and then Pejic stepped on a mine.  We were

12     afraid.  It was a daunting prospect of entering that minefield once

13     again.  But we had to, we had to load the bodies onto the lorry.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, could you please repeat the name of

15     the first body, the man -- you loaded on the truck.  Bosko -- what was

16     his last name?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bodjanac.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             MS. BIERSAY:

20        Q.   After the bodies were loaded onto the lorry, what happened to the

21     lorry?

22        A.   The lorry returned to the entrance into the village and stopped

23     before the check-point that was manned by reservists.  The driver parked

24     it there, and it remained there for two days.  We passed through the

25     check-point and returned to the village.  We went back to our regular

Page 1825

 1     work duties.  The lorry was there for two days.  And then they dug out a

 2     hole in front of the church, and some of the villagers unloaded the

 3     bodies from the lorry and threw them into that hole, which then became a

 4     mass grave.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, who -- when you say "they dug out," who dug

 6     out the hole in front of the church?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Croat who had an appropriate

 8     piece of machinery.  He had an excavator.  He dug out that hole in the

 9     cemetery.  And then our lads, locals, unloaded the bodies from the lorry

10     and buried them in that hole.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             MS. BIERSAY:

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know who made the decision that the bodies

14     would be buried in that place?  Was it the friend who had the excavator

15     or was it someone else?

16        A.   I don't know who decided.  In any case, there was an empty space

17     among all the other existing graves.  That's where the hole was dug out,

18     and that's where they were buried.

19        Q.   Were they later removed from this burial site?

20        A.   No.  It was only when we started returning in 1996 or 1997 they

21     were recovered from the graves.  Actually, an exhumation took place, and

22     their bodies were taken to the forensic institute in Zagreb.

23        Q.   You described yesterday that the house of Keser was being used as

24     a police station.  Do I understand that correctly?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1826

 1        Q.   How far was that police station from the minefield?

 2        A.   Approximately 600 to 700 metres.

 3        Q.   When they brought the lorry of the dead bodies, you said, to the

 4     check-point, was that closer to the centre of the village or was that

 5     farther from the centre of the village?

 6        A.   They got closer.  The centre of the village, at that point, was

 7     some 200 metres away.

 8        Q.   And what was the distance from where the truck with the dead

 9     bodies was parked for two days, from that point to the police station,

10     how far was that distance?

11        A.   Again about 200 metres.  Boro Keser's house which housed the

12     police is in the centre, and the lorry was parked some 200 metres away.

13     And it was also some 50 metres away from the check-point manned by

14     reservists who were standing there at the entrance to the village.

15        Q.   While you were in Lovas, was there any investigation ever

16     conducted into the killings in the minefield?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Were there any investigations into any of the killings of Croats

19     in the village of Lovas?

20        A.   No.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Turning now to tab 7, if I may ask the Registry to

22     display admitted Exhibit P293.287.

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, you had an opportunity to -- to look at this

24     document on your screen.  Do you recognise what that document is?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1827

 1        Q.   And what is it?

 2        A.   My friends who got killed in the minefield.

 3        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to number 10, which, I believe,

 4     is on the second page in the -- in the English.

 5             The name there, Bosko Bodjanac, now it says there that he was

 6     killed in a -- in the minefield.

 7        A.   Bosko was killed before we reached the minefield.  He was killed

 8     on that curve on the road.  But he was also buried in the same mass

 9     grave.

10        Q.   And directing your attention to number 4, which is on page 1 in

11     the English, Josip Turkalj.

12        A.   Josip was in the minefield, but he was shot in the back.  I

13     suppose that the bullet wounded him in the spine.  That's why he kept on

14     repeating that he had lost his legs.  He was also put on a truck in order

15     to be taken to the hospital; but later on, we heard that he had succumbed

16     to his wounds on the way to the hospital.

17        Q.   Directing your attention now number 9, Marko Vidic, and that name

18     would appear on page 2 in the English.

19        A.   Yes.  I can't remember what exactly happened.  The man is dead,

20     but somehow I cannot recall him as having been with us in the minefield.

21     I simply -- I'm -- I must have forgotten about that.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, after the minefield killings on October 17, did the

23     Croatian population in Lovas increase or did it decrease?

24        A.   It decreased.

25        Q.   Could you explain to the Trial Chamber how that happened?

Page 1828

 1        A.   Expulsions started.  The women and children whose husbands were

 2     not there were told that they had to leave the village.  They had to sign

 3     a piece of paper to the effect of leaving their property to the

 4     SAO Krajina.  They signed those documents, and they went in the direction

 5     of Sid.  That was the only place they could go to, and, from there, they

 6     would either go to Bosnia or to some other parts of Croatia via Bosnia.

 7     They did what they could from there on.

 8        Q.   You described that there were women and children who were told

 9     that they had to leave the village.  Were men also told that they had to

10     leave the village?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did there come a time that you left Lovas?

13        A.   Yes.  I left Lovas on the 24th of December.  Mr. Grkovic had told

14     me that I would be brought in.  Those people who were brought in were

15     first beaten and they still had to leave.  He told me that I would be

16     brought in.  I spent that night with my family in the village because I

17     was afraid that they would find me at home and bring me in.  Then I took

18     the first transportation in the morning to go to Sid, and from there, I

19     went to Croatia.

20        Q.   Did you leave alone?

21        A.   No, with my family.  My wife, my children, and my mother.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, if I could have one moment to confer

23     with my colleague.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, the Prosecution has no further


Page 1829

 1     questions.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             Cross-examination.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Witness.  My name is

 7     Zoran Zivanovic, and I am defending Mr. Hadzic.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I wanted to ask you something.  The name of someone who was

14     wounded was mentioned several times.  He was wounded when the second mine

15     exploded.  I think his surname has been incorrectly recorded in the

16     transcript.  So could you tell us what his surname is, in fact?

17        A.   Stjepan Pejic stood on a mine and he was leading Mujic.

18        Q.   Is his surname Pejic or Peulic?

19        A.   Peulic.  I'm sorry.  Peulic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You remember that on the 23rd of November, 2007, you

21     gave a statement to the county court in Vukovar.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   It's 1D152; Defence Exhibit 1D152.  I'm not going to ask you

24     anything about the contents of that statement and what you said there,

25     but only about one part where you mentioned the statement that you gave

Page 1830

 1     to The Hague Tribunal.  I believe you can have a look at page number 3 of

 2     your statement.

 3             Just a minute so that we can zoom in.  It will be easier to read.

 4     Page 3.

 5             There's a gap between two paragraphs and it says:  When the

 6     witness was asked, the witness said that he had an objection to the

 7     translation of the record of his statement that he gave to investigators

 8     from The Hague Tribunal in 1996.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So what I wanted to ask you is:  When you gave your statement to

11     investigators from The Hague Tribunal, did you give that statement in the

12     Croatian language?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And were you immediately shown that -- that statement in Croatian

15     or in English?

16        A.   The statement was given to me here in The Hague in Croatian.

17        Q.   When you say "in The Hague," was it given in 1996 or later when

18     you came --

19        A.   When I came to the Tribunal.  When I came here.

20        Q.   According to my information, that must have been in 2003.

21        A.   I think it was later than that.

22        Q.   So could you tell me when you had objections to the translation

23     when you were shown the translation?

24        A.   When I had the videolink, it appeared that certain interpretation

25     mistakes or translation mistakes may have been made.  Here I see that I

Page 1831

 1     said that there was some mistake that was made in the -- in the record.

 2        Q.   Very well.  In any event, did you tell the investigative judge

 3     from the Vukovar County Court that you objected to the translation of the

 4     record of your statement that was given to The Hague Tribunal

 5     investigators in 1996?

 6        A.   No, no.

 7        Q.   So did you discuss this statement with the investigative judge at

 8     the county court in Vukovar?

 9        A.   No.  I just said that there was something that I failed to say.

10     I said that I had a pass in the name of my mother.  4795, military post.

11     I said it would be photocopied but that document wasn't included anyway.

12     It's a pass that people were given who would leave the -- that people who

13     would leave the village could use in order to go and work in gardens, in

14     yards and so on and so forth.  So this pass, MP 4795 --

15        Q.   Just tell me, when you say that that pass was taken from you in

16     order to make a photocopy of it, who took it from you?

17        A.   The investigator in Primosten which is where I was a refugee.

18        Q.   Do you mean an investigator from The Hague Tribunal or an

19     investigator from --

20        A.   From The Hague Tribunal.

21        Q.   He returned it to you.

22        A.   Yes, he did.

23        Q.   Could that be the pass that you mentioned signed by someone

24     called Kovac?

25        A.   Yes, Marko Kovac.  Anyone who had leave the village to work in

Page 1832

 1     the fields would receive such a pass.  They couldn't pass through the

 2     reservists' check-points without that pass.  My mother kept it in her

 3     wallet and that is how we had that piece of evidence with us.

 4        Q.   Tell me now, with regard to these people who would leave the

 5     village in order to perform labour, and I'm speaking about the Croats

 6     now, did they also have to wear those white arm-bands?

 7        A.   Yes.  That was obligatory.  They had to have these white

 8     arm-bands.

 9        Q.   Very well, sir.  In conclusion, with regard to what it says in

10     your statement given to the county court in Croatia, with regard to the

11     objections you had to the transcript, well, that is not, in fact,

12     something you said.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Yesterday you mentioned the establishment of village guards, the

15     village guards that were set up in Lovas.  You said that this took place

16     after the incident in Borovo village.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   How did you obtain information on the incident in Borovo village,

19     on the details, on the details of what happened there?

20        A.   We would watch television and, of course, you can see everything

21     on the news.  So it was by watching television.

22        Q.   Did you know that, at the time, most of the inhabitants in Borovo

23     village were Serbs?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you knew that there was a clash in Borovo Selo between the

Page 1833

 1     Serbs from Borovo Selo, on the one hand, and the Croatian police, on the

 2     other hand?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you know whether the Croatian police were from Borovo village

 5     or had they come from somewhere else to Borovo Selo?

 6        A.   All we heard was what we heard on television, that a bus full of

 7     policemen came to Borovo Selo and that they launched an attack on Borovo

 8     village.

 9        Q.   I'm asking you about this because I can see some significant

10     differences between Borovo village and Lovas.  There was a Croatian -- a

11     bus with Croatian policemen and an attack was launched in Borovo village.

12     That's what the media in Croatia said; whereas in Lovas, most of the

13     inhabitants were Croats.  It wasn't -- there was no danger that a bus of

14     Croatian police might be attacked there.  So why was the incident in

15     Borovo village the reason for which the guards in Lovas were mounted?

16        A.   Well, I wasn't that familiar with everything.  All I knew was

17     that there was such an incident.  I'd learnt about it over the

18     television.  Our leaders wanted guards to be mounted.  I wasn't involved

19     in politics and so on.  I was an ordinary citizen.  I was working in

20     Borovo.  The company went bankrupt.  I tried to find work on the private

21     market to feed my children.  I wasn't interested in politics at all.  I

22     abided by the decisions taken in the village.  I tried to fit in.

23        Q.   When say that the leaders took this decision, can you tell us who

24     these leaders were in Lovas, the leaders who took that decision?

25        A.   Well, our people from the village who were in the village

Page 1834

 1     committees.  In every village, there are certain leaders.

 2        Q.   Do you perhaps remember their names?

 3        A.   Zeljko Cirba, Markica Gracanac, Ivica Mujic, I think.

 4     Franjo Mujic.  Those were the people.

 5        Q.   Were you involved in the guards?  Did you ever participate in the

 6     guards that were mounted?

 7        A.   Yes, on several occasions.

 8        Q.   What sort of instructions were you given when you went on guard

 9     duty?  What did you have to control, to check?

10        A.   There were exits from the village on two sides.  There was an

11     ordinary path from the field out of the village.  I had a hunting rifle,

12     dual-barrel hunting rifle.  They gave it to me in the evening; I returned

13     it in the morning.  Quite simply, if someone was entering the village one

14     had to report on this.  Guard duty was mounted at night usually.  Nothing

15     much was done in the course of the day.

16        Q.   Who did you have to report to if someone appeared?

17        A.   There was always someone on duty in the municipality, someone to

18     whom one could submit a report.

19        Q.   And how would you do this?  I don't believe had you any mobile

20     phones at the time.

21        A.   No.  There were two of us.  One would go up there by foot - it

22     was perhaps 5- or 600 metres away - and would make a report.  There were

23     no mobile phones at the time.

24        Q.   And the other person was to detain the person who was coming.

25        A.   Well, that would have been difficult to do with a hunting rifle.


Page 1835

 1        Q.   Tell me, can you tell us from whom you received those

 2     instructions about what you had to do at the check-point?

 3        A.   From Nikica Maric.

 4        Q.   Did you perhaps hear that around 1990 in Lovas, immediately after

 5     the HDZ committee had been established, a decision was taken on

 6     organising the HDZ along military lines?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us whether you heard that in 1990, because of

 9     weapons obtained in Hungary, some citizens in Lovas were arrested,

10     including Nikica Maric?

11        A.   No.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move into private session, please.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1836











11 Page 1836 redacted. Private session.















Page 1837

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   What was the role of the guards once the war started in the

22     autumn of 1991, in the months of September and October, and especially

23     during the attack on Lovas?

24        A.   It was just a matter of prevention.  We did not have any arms.

25     We knew that with the hunting rifles and the four or five automatic


Page 1838

 1     rifles we had, we could not stop anybody.  It was just to raise an alert

 2     and to warn the villagers if something was happening.  There was -- there

 3     were no plans for putting up any organised resistance because we did not

 4     have the means to do so.

 5        Q.   According to the information that we have, in 1990, in Lovas, a

 6     volunteer detachment was set up in Lovas.  It numbered about 120 men.  Do

 7     you know anything about that?

 8        A.   No.  I heard that here at the Tribunal when I was here the first

 9     time.

10        Q.   According to that information, that detachment was set up by the

11     HDZ.  Those who were members of the HDZ were members of that detachment.

12     They supported the HDZ policies.

13        A.   I don't know anything about that.  If any such thing did occur,

14     then only those who were involved knew about that.

15        Q.   Well, you see, Lovas is a very small place.  It had about

16     1400 Croats all together before the war, as far as I understood it.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If a volunteer detachment was set up, and if it numbered 120 men,

19     one would assume that every tenth villager of Lovas was involved in that

20     detachment, i.e., that every tenth member of the Croatian community was

21     involved.  Would it be possible for something like that to go unnoticed

22     by others?

23        A.   I don't know about others.  I certainly was not interested in

24     that.  I stood guard only two or three times, when I was told to do so,

25     and that was the end of my involvement in all that.

Page 1839

 1        Q.   Do you know that in the village of Bogdanovci, a review was held

 2     with all the volunteer detachments from the region participating.  There

 3     was a total of 1500 to 2000 members of the volunteer detachments and the

 4     volunteer detachment from Lovas also participated.  The 120 men from that

 5     detachment.

 6        A.   I also heard that here at The Hague Tribunal, and then I

 7     discussed the matter with some of the villagers and they confirmed that.

 8     But I was not in attendance so I can't say anything about that.

 9        Q.   And now I would like to ask you about the operation that the

10     Yugoslav People's Army and the others, reservists, the Territorial

11     Defence and the Dusan Silni unit carried out on the 10th of October,

12     1991, targeting Lovas.

13             Was there any armed resistance put up against that operation?

14        A.   No, no such thing happened.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at 1D161.  It

16     is an exhibit on our list.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  I am rising just to understand the protocol that

19     we're using.  I understand that when we're using prior -- when we're

20     using this type of information, it shouldn't be displayed to the witness

21     and the source of the information shouldn't be disclosed.  That's what I

22     understood the -- the protocol to be in handling this type of

23     information.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have no -- yes, Mr. --

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I understood that it is protocol for the eventual

Page 1840

 1     witness before the Tribunal but this person is not on the list either of

 2     Prosecution or Defence.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have no idea what -- what this is about.  I

 4     have something in -- oh, no.  I have nothing on my screen.  So I don't

 5     know what -- what this exhibit is.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  1D161.  Anyway, I do not object, if this document

 7     should not be -- be published.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, I can't speak about the -- the

10     substance of this document because I don't have it in -- in English.  And

11     I apologise if -- if I do, but I don't see that I do.  And we received

12     this just this morning, and I haven't been able to confirm that we have

13     an English version of it.

14             But what I understood the guide-lines to be from the

15     Trial Chamber is that to the extent that there are propositions to be put

16     to a witness, the propositions themselves should be put to the witness

17     and not the source from which the propositions are coming.

18             So if, for example, to use an example, if Defence counsel wants

19     to use a statement of a witness, he does not put the witness -- the

20     statement before the witness, one, and he does not say, This is a

21     statement from a witness, what do you have to say about that.  Just to

22     give a very simplistic example.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That is correct, but I still don't know what this

24     is.  Do we have an English translation, Mr. Zivanovic?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Translation is pending, is still pending.

Page 1841

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Then we'd object to the use of the document at this

 2     time.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would use just three sentences from this

 4     document -- just two sentences, Your Honour, from this document, and I

 5     wouldn't tender this document into evidence.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  The position that I am now in is that I can't

 7     assess those three sentences in light of the whole document.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, could you put the question to the

10     witness without using the document?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I already --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I suppose it's a piece of information you have.

13     So give him -- give the witness the information and ask whether he --

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Actually, I already put the question to him.  It

15     is related to the armed -- armed resistance on 10th of October --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, but --

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- and I would -- to confront the witness with

18     another statement of -- with another statement, opposite statement.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, then, you have information going in the

20     opposite side and tell the witness.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And please repeat your -- your question, because

23     I'm sure that, in the meantime, the witness has forgotten about it.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I do, Your Honour.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I'm not saying your name because you are a

Page 1842

 1     protected witness.

 2             Sir, you see, we received the following information from a

 3     source:

 4             The struggle for our village, Lovas, lasted for not more than a

 5     few hours, four or five all together.  The resistance and defence was

 6     carried out by members of the ZNG including our locals, i.e., all of them

 7     are -- were locals.  And all of those who were fighting, i.e., who

 8     defended the village, eventually withdrew in the direction of Ilok.

 9        A.   All I can say is that there was no resistance.  From the moment

10     infantry fire was opened, I was in the centre of the village, some 600 or

11     700 metres from the entrance into the village, which is in Opatovac.  It

12     took them about 15 or 20 minutes to get to the centre of the village.

13     I'm not even questioning the person who provided that statement.  He has

14     his opinion; I have mine.  I cannot comment upon another person's

15     statement that I do not support.  I stand by what I know and what I saw.

16        Q.   Do you know that there were ZNG members in Lovas?

17        A.   I know that they arrived and they spent a few days in Lovas, some

18     dozen of them, and they disappeared in the same way they came.  I don't

19     know where they went to.

20        Q.   Were there any locals among them?

21        A.   As far as I could see, they were all lads unknown to me.

22        Q.   According to what you know, what did they do in the village?  Why

23     were they in the village?  What was their mission?

24        A.   I know that they were driving around.  They spent some time in

25     the cafe.  I did not see them engaging in any particular activities

Page 1843

 1     during the few days that they were there.

 2        Q.   Where were they billeted?  Where did they sleep?

 3        A.   In the old school.

 4        Q.   Do you know that when the JNA volunteers and other Serb forces

 5     entered the village of Lovas that one of the volunteers got killed?

 6        A.   No, I don't know that.  I only heard that later Vorkapic got

 7     killed.  Milorad Vorkapic was killed by a grenade at the farm somewhere

 8     around there.  Allegedly, he actually activated a grenade himself.

 9        Q.   I'm talking about the 10th of October, the day when the JNA

10     entered the village.

11        A.   Yes, I understand, but I don't know that anybody was killed on

12     that day.

13        Q.   You testified about JNA soldiers, about reservists, about the

14     Territorial Defence, about the members of the Dusan Silni unit.  So let

15     me ask you this:  At that time do you remember, do you know, as a matter

16     of fact, whether one could make a distinction between a regular,

17     active-duty JNA soldier and a reservist?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you help us with that?

20        A.   Regular soldiers were all young lads who were well groomed,

21     clean-shaven; whereas reservists, we were all reservists at the time.  We

22     all had love handles.  We had longer hair.  They all sported five-pointed

23     stars on their caps, both the regular army and the reservists.  The

24     Dusan Silni unit, the local Serbs, some of them wore civilian trousers or

25     civilian jackets.  Some had militia caps without any insignia on them.

Page 1844

 1     Some were without caps.  Some had civilian clothes.  They were all armed.

 2     Well, it was not difficult for anybody to tell that they were not regular

 3     active-duty soldiers but, rather, a paramilitary formation.  When the

 4     Valjevo men first appeared, they were all tall and strong.  They had

 5     camouflage uniforms, they had ammunition belts and weapons, and one could

 6     easily tell that those were experienced soldiers, as it were.  That they

 7     were not rookies.

 8        Q.   On several occasions, we have mentioned men from Valjevo and

 9     Valjevci.  For the benefit of everybody in the -- of everybody in the

10     courtroom, let's just say that Valjevo is a town in Serbia; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And now I'm moving on to the topic of the minefield.

13             As you were being driven in the direction of the clover field,

14     you all sported pieces of white cloth, as you told us.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And I believe that you were in the middle and that the soldiers

17     were on your flanks and that later on you swapped places.

18        A.   Yes.  They told us to swap places because if the Ustasha opened

19     fire, they should first fire at us.  We were like their living shields of

20     sorts.

21        Q.   You explained to us what the purpose was of the white pieces of

22     cloth on the Croatian houses, but what was the purpose of the pieces of

23     white cloth on your arms?

24        A.   So everybody would know that we were Croats.  Because when you

25     look at two men, you can't tell whether they're a Serb or a Croat.  That

Page 1845

 1     was the only sign of distinction.  To say that we were Croats, that we

 2     were slaves that had to work for the others.

 3        Q.   And I'm putting that in a context.  Just a while ago, you told us

 4     that people who went to work on their fields also sported those white

 5     arm-bands.  Would that perhaps be a sign that those were the villagers of

 6     Lovas?

 7        A.   No.  We had to wear those arm-bands in the village and in the

 8     gardens that were about 500 metres away from the boundaries of the

 9     village.  They would never allow a husband and a wife, together with

10     their children, to leave.  They would not allow the entire families to go

11     out of the village and give them an opportunity to escape.  For example,

12     I never went with my family.  My mother would go, and she also had to

13     wear that white cloth on her arm.

14        Q.   Did you hear anyone saying that sniper fire was being opened on

15     the JNA from a forest called Jelas, I think?

16        A.   There were such rumours.  These men in uniform would say that,

17     the reservists and the others.  They said that fire was being opened on

18     them, and so on and so forth, but they were also opening fire in the

19     village all the time.  So we, in the village, didn't really know who was

20     opening fire and from where.

21        Q.   When they took you to that clover field, were you told that you

22     were, in fact, going there because sniper fire was opened on them at

23     night and so on?

24        A.   They said we were going to that part of the village to see if

25     there were any Ustasha there.  They said they were taking us there as

Page 1846

 1     hostages.

 2        Q.   If I have understood you correctly, the purpose of these white

 3     rags was in order to make sure that Croatian forces could see that you

 4     had these distinguishing marks?

 5        A.   Whatever we did in the village, all the people had to wear these

 6     white arm-bands.

 7        Q.   Yes, I've understood that.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic, but I didn't.

 9             Mr. Witness, do you mean all the people; or do you mean all the

10     Croats?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the Croats.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [No interpretation]

14             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear the translation for the

15     last --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises:  Could I please see

17     Exhibit 158.  1D158.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We exactly expected to cross-examine this witness

19     tomorrow.  Or not tomorrow but on Friday.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Didn't -- didn't we agree to have the

21     cross-examination only start today not yesterday?

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  But in this arrangement, translation

23     service was not included.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So -- so is this, again, a -- a document

25     for which the translation is pending?

Page 1847

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And is it now on the screen or is this the

 3     previous one?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  It is on the screen.  No, it is not

 5     previous document.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Oh, no, it's another one, indeed.

 7             Ms. Biersay.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm just concerned that the Trial Chamber hasn't

 9     made a decision about whether or not this document can be shown to the

10     witness, and I believe it's already on his screen.

11             Could we -- could we perhaps turn off that screen while we

12     discuss that document, because I would object to its use because I don't

13     know what it is.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, indeed.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would just say this is not a witness statement.

16     It is it only Official Note.  But ... okay.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, do you have a problem with this

18     document not being translated?

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I do because I don't understand it.  And I -- I --

20     I won't understand what's going on.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, your last remark about the

22     translation services, do I understand you correctly that it would have

23     been translated -- or it will be translated by tomorrow?

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't know.  It all depends -- doesn't depend

25     on me.

Page 1848

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So whether you start your cross-examination today

 2     or tomorrow wouldn't really make a difference.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think we -- we're not here -- we do not have

 4     sitting tomorrow but the day after tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The day after.  But even then, that wouldn't make

 6     a difference, would it?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Actually, I expected that the -- by the Friday

 8     the document would be translated.  But, anyway, I'm not make the problem.

 9     I'll not put this document to the witness.  And --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Actually ...

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, could you indicate whether you

14     have other such documents that are pending translation?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.  Not at the moment.  Except the documents

16     already mentioned here.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I could use this document with another witness

19     when -- when the translation come.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.  Thank you.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I'd now like to ask you the following, since you were in the

23     village all the time.

24             What would your assessment be of the relationship between the

25     JNA, or, rather, its officers who arrived in the village and the others?


Page 1849

 1     I mean the paramilitary units and so on.  In other words, was it your

 2     impression that they could influence the conduct of the members of those

 3     paramilitary units?

 4        A.   They mounted guards around the villages, the reservists did that,

 5     and these others did whatever they wanted.  Some would go to empty houses

 6     and loot the property.  They'd take things that they needed in the

 7     centre.  At night they would appear and take people away.  Since there

 8     was a curfew at around 5.00, they didn't prevent anyone from doing things

 9     of that sort.  At least I didn't hear anything of that.  They had the

10     green light to do whatever they wanted, in my opinion, and we were sort

11     of surrounded in the village.  That was the impression that I had.  We

12     were being guarded.

13        Q.   Were you under the impression that they could have used a red

14     light instead of giving them the green light?  Could they have prevented

15     them from doing such things?

16        A.   Yes, they could have.

17        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions for you.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, re-direct?

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, you were asked some questions about the ZNG coming

23     to Lovas.  Do you recall those questions?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you recall when they came to Lovas?


Page 1850

 1        A.   Well, sometime at the beginning of July.

 2        Q.   Of what year?

 3        A.   1991.

 4        Q.   You described that Croats had to wear the white arm-bands when

 5     they went to work in the fields.  Could you clarify for the Trial Chamber

 6     whether they were allowed to work in their own fields or were they

 7     working in other fields?

 8        A.   On other fields.

 9        Q.   And the items that they collected or what they took from the

10     fields, what did they do with them; do you know?

11        A.   Usually they would pick corn with people who were killed [as

12     interpreted].  These were put in private containers - they didn't have

13     this at their disposal - or they would transport it to the farm, to the

14     agricultural co-operative, and the corn would also be put in silos there.

15     The produce would also be put in the silos that were there.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have nothing further.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I have a question I'd like to put

21     to you to clarify something.  It relates to document P293, and then 287.

22     P293.287.

23             Mr. Registrar, could we see the document.  If I'm not mistaken,

24     it is the list of persons who were killed in the minefield.

25             That's it.  We have the document on the screen now.

Page 1851

 1             I asked to see this document because I don't know where the

 2     contradiction is.  In the transcript, on page 9, line 23, it seems to me

 3     that we are discussing the incident that took place on the

 4     17th of October, 1991; whereas in this document, 293.287, when we read

 5     the first line, it says on the 18th of October, 1991.

 6             Mr. Witness, could you tell me exactly when this incident in the

 7     minefield took place?

 8        A.   On the 18th of October, 1991.

 9             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  So I see that there

10     was mistake in the transcript.

11             Thank you very much.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, I have a follow-up question about

13     this list of names about the people that were killed in the minefield.

14             You said to the Prosecution -- to the Prosecutor that you seem

15     unable to remember that number 9 of the list, Marko -- yes, Marko Vidic

16     was among the people killed that day.

17             So that leaves 20 other names you looked at.  My question is:

18     The other names, do you remember them being killed in the minefield?  Do

19     you remember them as being among the dead bodies you loaded on the truck?

20             So can you confirm that those 20 people are 20 people killed in

21     the minefield?

22        A.   Yes.  As for Mr. Vidic, I know he is dead, that he was buried,

23     but I just can't remember having seen him in the minefield.  Perhaps it's

24     my mind playing tricks on me.  I know he was killed and that he was

25     buried, though.


Page 1852

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Mr. Witness, this brings your testimony to an end, so you are

 3     released as a witness.  We thank you very much for coming to assist the

 4     Tribunal.  The court usher will now escort you out of the courtroom, and

 5     we wish you a safe journey back home.  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thanks.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see it about time for the break.  Mr. Stringer,

 9     what will happen after the break?

10             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the next witness arrives this

11     afternoon.  He doesn't live in Europe.  He is travelling all night.  So,

12     regrettably, we don't have a -- the next witness here and ready to begin

13     to testify.  He will be the fifth witness for the week.  We have moved a

14     little faster through the cross-examination than anticipated.  And so

15     this witness will be on -- his direct will be shortened a little bit to

16     ensure that he can finish his testimony on Friday, but we do not have the

17     witness here and ready to go at the moment.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This is not the first time this happens.  I don't

19     know whether the fact that the Defence had to start their

20     cross-examination one day before they anticipated has anything to do with

21     it, but could I suggest to the Prosecution to try to avoid this kind of

22     situations.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We -- we absolutely will do

24     so.

25             It's -- during the earlier phase of the trial, the Defence

Page 1853

 1     cross-examinations were going longer than expected.  I think the last few

 2     days they've gone shorter.  It's a bit scary for us to try to book more

 3     than five witnesses into a single court week, especially when they're

 4     coming from very long away, very far away, which this witness is and he

 5     is missing work.  So that is a long way of saying that we are well aware

 6     of the Chamber's views on this, and we will endeavour to make sure that

 7     we don't have much down time.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             Does the Defence have a view on this proposition?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I made my cross estimates on the

11     basis that all areas that I intended to include in it will be permitted.

12     However, two very important areas, two very important areas -- areas of

13     my cross-examination related to two documents are excluded, and because

14     of that, my cross estimate was not valid anymore.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Did you exclude two?  I thought it was only one.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, two.  First it was a statement of one

17     witness.  I can --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- say his name in private session, if you like.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But you asked --

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And the second is the Official Note.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, the Official Note, I agree, but --

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And before that it was something that I quoted to

24     the witness but with no possibility to -- to analyse this document --

25     document with him.

Page 1854

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, also being behind -- well, also

 4     being under steady pressure in the world of translations, it's difficult,

 5     we understand, for the Defence to take a lengthy document of any kind,

 6     such as a witness statement, and to have the entire document translated

 7     when it may be that they just want to use a part of it for cross.  As the

 8     Chamber has heard, the concern is that in that situation, the Prosecution

 9     is not necessarily in a position to -- to see the context in which the

10     particular excerpt is being used.

11             We will -- we would propose -- I guess, the Prosecution's view is

12     that we can try to be more flexible so long as it's -- it's not a

13     frequent situation, but where there are lengthy exam -- witness

14     examinations, only a part of which they want to use on cross, it may be

15     that the Prosecution can revise its position and to not object to a part

16     being used so long as the interpreters read it out so that it can be

17     interpreted, and if, perhaps, the Prosecution could then have time to

18     examine the document and to come back to it in re-direct.  But, again,

19     that would probably also involve coming back to a document that's not

20     been fully translated.  Some of these Belgrade and Osijek witness

21     testimonies are lengthy, and when they are a testimony of somebody who is

22     not a witness in this case, it's just something that on the priorities

23     for translation doesn't always rise so high.

24             It may be that the parties can find a way to try to work through

25     this so that the Defence is able to use more of its documents on cross.

Page 1855

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, the first document, this is the

 2     lengthy one?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is three-pages document, but I did not intend

 4     to use all three pages.  Just some of -- some parts of these documents --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- and to put the witness some questions relating

 7     to --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the second one?

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- these parts.

10             And the second one is Official Note of military security.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One page?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  One or two pages.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

14             Mr. Stringer, would a -- a break -- the break, or a break of

15     one hour helpful for you to -- I don't say translate but to know what is

16     in the documents so that after that, we could give Mr. Zivanovic a go for

17     his cross?

18             MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  We were going to propose -- we think it's a

19     good idea.

20             I don't know if I could suggest if we know, if we had an idea

21     what part of the longer document counsel has in mind that we could look

22     around that.  The second one is just a one-page document.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So you could start with the one-page

24     document.  And, in the meantime, Mr. Zivanovic could provide you with one

25     highlighted second document, let's say, the longer one.

Page 1856

 1             Would half an hour suffice or would you prefer an hour?

 2             MR. STRINGER:  I think ...

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's hope that the witness is not

 5     on his way to the hotel.

 6             So an hour?

 7             MR. STRINGER:  An hour would be good, yes --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  -- Mr. President.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So let's -- 11.30.  Would that be okay?

11             MR. STRINGER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.  We will come back at 11.30.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Are the parties ready to continue?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness may be brought in.

20             We will have to break at the normal time due to commitments

21     before we knew this -- this would happen.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Do you mean at 2.00, Your Honour, or ...

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No.  I mean at 12.15 --

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Ah, I understand.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- for half an hour.

Page 1857

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  One question, Your Honours.  I wondered if it was

 2     the Trial Chamber's intent to -- to give him the oath again or simply do

 3     something else.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I would suggest to tell him that he is still

 5     under his oath.  But if anybody feels that this is not appropriate and

 6     that I should take an oath again --

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  I will tell the Trial Chamber that as is our usual

 8     practice -- could we hold the witness just for a minute?

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

10             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm very sorry.  Just to let the Trial Chamber know

11     that as it is our usual practice, we meet with the witnesses afterwards,

12     and our interpreter and our investigator met him, but I -- I wasn't

13     present, and I don't think anything was discussed.  Usually it is to

14     thank them for coming and so forth.  So I don't know if that contact

15     would require a ...

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do you see any problem by just saying to the

18     witness that he is still under his oath, Mr. Zivanovic?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honours.  But I would ask him whether he

20     discussed any topic from his examination and from his testimony with the

21     investigator in the meanwhile.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Could the witness be brought in, please.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, I could ask that the Court ask those

24     questions so that he doesn't get the impression he has done something

25     wrong.


Page 1858

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  I think that's what Mr. Zivanovic meant.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Witness.

 4             We're very sorry for the inconvenience, Mr. Witness, and for the

 5     somewhat unusual things that are happening for the moment.

 6             After -- after going out of court, and I don't know whether you

 7     left the Tribunal immediately or not, did you -- did you speak to anyone

 8     from the Prosecutor's office?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No.  Are you satisfied with the answer,

11     Mr. Zivanovic?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I am.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, is it possible for me to ask a

15     question to clarify?  Perhaps he didn't understand fully the question.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What question would you like me to ask,

17     Ms. Biersay?

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Whether after he -- that there's nothing wrong if

19     he had contact, but if he met with an interpreter and anyone that he had

20     met during proofing.  There's nothing wrong with that but just to ask.

21     Maybe he just didn't fully understand.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Mr. Witness, as we told you that this was

23     the end of your testimony, you were able to talk to anybody.  Now that we

24     have this particular kind of thing happening, we have to ask you whether

25     you -- you spoke, in the meantime, with an interpreter or anyone that you

Page 1859

 1     had contact with during the proofing after your testimony, so in the last

 2     hour.  Did you?  Did you see anyone?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two persons who

 4     interpreted and a gentleman who was involved in the proofing.  But that

 5     really didn't take long.  Perhaps a minute or a couple of minutes.  We

 6     did not discuss the case at all.  They just greeted me and thanked me,

 7     and, after that, somebody came to tell me that I would have to come back

 8     into the courtroom.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So what -- the important thing you mention is

11     that you did not discuss the case and your testimony with these people;

12     is that right?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So there are a few more questions that

15     will be put to you, Mr. Witness, and I would remind you that for those

16     reasons, you are still under your oath -- under the oath.  You

17     understand?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           WITNESS:  GH-095 [Re-called]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Again, good morning to you, sir.


Page 1860

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   I would like to ask you, first of all, whether you know some

 3     people from the village whose names are Berislav Filic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Anton Pavosevic [phoen].

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Markica Gracanac?

 8        A.   Yes, but the name is Grcanac.

 9        Q.   Yes, Grcanac, I apologise.  Branko Krizmanic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Franjo Mujic.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Jozo Milas.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We know that there are two names, Markica Grcanac and

16     Marko Grcanac.  Are we talking about one and the same person or are these

17     two people?

18        A.   Those two people are a father and a son.

19        Q.   I have already told you that we have heard about a volunteer

20     detachment numbering some 120 men that was set up in Lovas.  According to

21     the information that we have - and this is it our Exhibit 2803, which was

22     used in private session - this is on page 103 of the English transcript.

23     We heard that Markica Grcanac was the commander of that volunteer

24     detachment numbering 120 people in Lovas.  Do you know that?

25        A.   No.

Page 1861

 1        Q.   Do you know anything about the two kilos of explosives that were

 2     purchased?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Do you know anything about the manufacture of explosive devices?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And what about cash loans that were given by the agricultural

 7     co-operative in Lovas?

 8        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I was not an employee of the

 9     co-operative.  I was unemployed at the time, so I really don't know

10     anything about the business operations of the agricultural co-operative.

11        Q.   Well, you see, I did not mean that you were either a beneficiary

12     of that loan or that you were the one who granted those loans on behalf

13     of the agricultural co-operative.  But do you know whether some other

14     villagers of Lovas were granted those loans amounting to 5- or

15     6.000 dinars that they could use for the purchase of agricultural

16     equipment?  Did you hear about that about any of your neighbours or

17     friends?

18        A.   I know that some of the co-operating farmers could be granted

19     loans from the co-operative in order to purchase equipment or seeds or

20     things like that, but those people had to have a co-operation agreement

21     with the agricultural co-operative.

22        Q.   Do you know that those funds were used to purchase weapons?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   I am going to share with you some information that's from 1D152,

25     which should not be publicly broadcast.  The document is being translated

Page 1862

 1     as we speak.

 2             I already showed you one part of this.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It should not be on the screen of the ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It -- it's not broadcast, Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.  Okay.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me jog your memory.  This is the information

 8     that we are privy to, according to which the struggle for Lovas lasted

 9     for not more than a few hours.  You already answered that part of my

10     question.  It says here that all those who participated in the fighting

11     were actually locals.

12             Further on, according to the same information, those who did not

13     participate in the fighting, in practical terms, those were elderly

14     people, women and children, they remained in the village.  Those who

15     participated in the fighting withdrew in the direction of Ilok.  That's

16     what we established.  You will remember that, won't you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   When that fighting broke out, i.e., when the JNA and other

19     formations entered the village, did people withdraw from Lovas?

20        A.   Yes, they did.  All those who resided on the edges of the village

21     escaped and left the village.

22        Q.   How many of -- of those people were there?

23        A.   About 60 per cent of the total population.

24        Q.   When you say "60 per cent of the total population," do you really

25     mean the total population or the Croatian population?

Page 1863

 1        A.   The Croatian population.  Two or three days, we realised that the

 2     people were simply not there, and we knew that they had fled.

 3        Q.   Is it correct, then, that only the elderly, the women, and the

 4     children, remained in the village and that those who had participated in

 5     the fighting fled?

 6        A.   As far as I know, there was no fighting at all.  Some younger

 7     people remained, including myself, with families, but the majority were

 8     the elderly, the women, and the children.  They were the ones who

 9     remained in Lovas.

10        Q.   According to the information that we have, the first who entered

11     the village was a unit comprising some 80 men.  Apparently it was a

12     police unit.  However, that those were only the villagers of Lovas.

13        A.   There were villagers, but there were other -- some unknown

14     people, as well as some people I knew, but they were not from Lovas but

15     from some other places.

16        Q.   When you say that the locals of Lovas entered, does that mean

17     that they were previously not in Lovas?

18        A.   Yes.  That means that they had left before.

19        Q.   Do you know why?

20        A.   I don't.

21        Q.   Since the situation was rather calm in Lovas, didn't it strike

22     you as odd that some Serbs were not there?

23        A.   Yes, we knew that they were missing.  They simply disappeared.

24     We didn't know where they had gone to.

25        Q.   Did anybody question their whereabouts?

Page 1864

 1        A.   If anybody did, the answer was always:  We don't know where they

 2     are.

 3        Q.   Did anybody try to find out why they had left?

 4        A.   No, nobody said anything.  Nobody said why they left, when they

 5     had left, where they had gone to.

 6        Q.   When those locals, or some of those locals, returned as members

 7     of the unit that entered Lovas, could they immediately notice that

 8     approximately 60 per cent of the Croats who had lived in Lovas before the

 9     war were no longer there?

10        A.   Yes.  They could see that because they inspected one house after

11     the other, and they could immediately see which houses were abandoned.

12        Q.   Did they question the reasons for which so many people left

13     Lovas?

14        A.   I don't know.  I wouldn't know that.

15        Q.   Nobody asked you personally?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Furthermore, according to the information that we have, the Serbs

18     from your region more or less joined the police, the courts, the local

19     authorities; is that correct?

20        A.   I don't know who stated that, but there was an equal

21     representation, and there were no tensions or anything to distinguish the

22     Serbs from the Croats in that respect.

23        Q.   In a nutshell, there was a proportionate representation of the

24     Serbs and Croats in the police, judiciary, and so on and so forth?

25        A.   I can't talk about any proportions or ratios.  I really can't.

Page 1865

 1        Q.   With this regard, this document continues to say:

 2             We allowed them that.  After the elections, for about a year and

 3     a half, we continued to live normally.

 4             When it says here "we allowed them to do that," do you know who

 5     was it -- please, I did not finish my question.  Could you allow me to

 6     finish?

 7             Do you know who was it who allowed the Serbs in Lovas to find

 8     employment with the police, the courts, the local authorities?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   After the elections.

11        A.   No.  I only know that we continued to live peacefully, without

12     any tensions, without any tugs of war or skirmishes or anything.

13        Q.   When it says here "after the elections," this is a reference to

14     the elections at which the HDZ was victorious in Lovas.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And I assume that if somebody says, We allowed them that, it

17     would have been a member of the HDZ; right?

18        A.   Probably.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And now let me move to another document, which is

20     1D158.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I do not whether the document should be

22     broadcasted or not.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  We don't object to it being broadcast.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] We will have a document -- document on the

Page 1866

 1     screen so you will be able to look at it.

 2             This is a document which was compiled by the Ministry of Defence

 3     of the Republic of Serbia on the 22nd of March, 2007.  This is an

 4     Official Note about a piece of information that was received from a

 5     citizen.  You can see the name of that citizen, as well as all the other

 6     personal data.

 7             He says that, on the 21st September 1991, he became the commander

 8     of the Territorial Defence of the 4th Operations Zone, that the

 9     mobilisation of some of the elements of the 4th Operations Zone was

10     carried out on the 16th and 17th September, 1991 - in other words, that

11     some of the units were mobilised - and he says when the hand-over took

12     place between him and the former commander.  We are interested in the

13     part where he says that the units of the Territorial Defence of the

14     4th Operations Zone, pursuant to an order of the Republican Staff of the

15     Territorial Defence of Serbia, were joined with the operations units and

16     they were resubordinated to them.

17             Let me ask you:  Do you understand the term "resubordinated"?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you explain?

20        A.   That means that they were subordinated to somebody who issued

21     them orders.

22        Q.   Further on, it says that the TO units did not get assigned their

23     zone of responsibility.  They did not independently carry out combat

24     activities.  Their main purpose -- and you can follow all that on the

25     screen, whatever you prefer.

Page 1867

 1        A.   I prefer listening to you.

 2        Q.   Their main purpose was to maintain order, to prevent looting, and

 3     to assist with the establishment of authorities, and all that was done

 4     while they were parts of operative units and while they were under the

 5     operative unit's command.

 6             I would like to shed some light on that.  The TO units that

 7     arrived in Lovas, did you and the citizens of Lovas know that their task

 8     was to maintain order, prevent looting, and assist with the establishment

 9     of authorities?

10        A.   I'm not familiar with the name of this person.  And whatever you

11     have just said, they said everything right the opposite.  They terrorised

12     people, they looted.  They did just the opposite to what is mentioned in

13     this order.  They did just the opposite.

14        Q.   I'm coming to Lovas.  Furthermore, it says, at the beginning of

15     October, I believe on the 7th of October, I submitted - I apologise - I

16     took the TO Lajkovac and TO Ljig detachments to carry out tasks in the

17     general sector of Tovarnik.  Let's just explain.  Are you familiar with

18     Lajkovac and Ljig?  Do these names ring any bells?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You don't know that they're in the vicinity of Valjevo?

21        A.   I know that is there Irig close to us.  I don't know about any

22     other.

23        Q.   According to our information, those places are in the general

24     area of Valjevo.

25             Further on, it says:

Page 1868

 1             My task as commander, as the TO commander of the 4th Operations

 2     Zone, was to carry out mobilisation, to train people, to bring the unit

 3     into the sector, to the command post of the 2nd Infantry Motorised

 4     Brigade in Tovarnik.  And I was supposed to hand over the unit to the

 5     brigade commander.

 6             Do you know whether, at the time, there was indeed a JNA unit in

 7     the area; and, if there was, what unit was that?

 8        A.   I don't know.  They didn't tell us.  I only know that the

 9     military post was 4795, because documents were stamped with that stamp.

10        Q.   And later, he says the later fate of the unit and their

11     engagement depended on the plan of the commander of the 2nd Infantry

12     Motorised Brigade.

13             It says the brigade commander decided that the anti-sabotage

14     detachment should be sent to the Cakovci village and the Ljig Territorial

15     Defence company and the Lajkovac Territorial Defence company should be

16     sent to the village of Lovas.

17             On that very same day, members of the Ljig TO company and the

18     members of the anti-sabotage detachment transferred to Lovas or Cakovci,

19     and the TO from Lajkovci, on the following day in the morning, moved to

20     Lovas.  And then he says that, together with the members of the Ljig TO

21     company, he went to Lovas and assisted the company commander.  He

22     mentions his name.  He assisted in deploying the unit in the village and

23     then returned to Tovarnik and reported to the commander of the

24     2nd Infantry Brigade and continued to Valjevo.

25             Were you aware of this information about these units that were,

Page 1869

 1     in fact, in Lovas?  That's what I'm interested in.

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Now this brings us to the incident that occurred.  It says that:

 4             About seven days later, I took some of the TO units from the

 5     4th Operations Zone to rotate in the territory of Eastern Slavonia.  And

 6     on that occasion, I visited my units in the village of Cakovci and in the

 7     village of Lovas.  I arrived in Lovas in the evening and I established

 8     contact with Lieutenant-Colonel Dimitrijevic from the Valjevo TO staff.

 9             Does this name mean anything to you?  Lieutenant-Colonel

10     Dimitrijevic.

11        A.   No, it's the first time I've heard the name.

12        Q.   You saw some active-duty JNA officers and active-duty TO officers

13     in Lovas when you were there.

14        A.   Yes.  The only name that I know is Marko Kovac.  That is the only

15     name of an officer that I, in fact, know.

16        Q.   Tell me, does that mean that you don't know of any others, of any

17     other officers?  Does that mean that there were no such officers or that

18     they were present but you did not know their names?

19        A.   I did not know their names because a lot of them arrived and

20     passed through, and these were people I did not know.

21        Q.   The person who gave the statement then says that:

22             On that occasion, Dimitrijevic complained to me because snipers

23     were opening fire on them at night from the direction of the Jelas

24     forest.

25             My question is, once again, whether you heard -- I don't mean

Page 1870

 1     from this officer, but whether you heard from the members, from the local

 2     Serbs or from members of the Territorial Defence or from someone else

 3     that they had this problem with snipers.

 4        A.   No, I heard nothing about it.  We were in our houses at night.

 5     We couldn't move around.  You could hear shooting, but this was mostly in

 6     the village itself.  And they didn't provide us with any information.

 7     They didn't tell us that someone was opening fire on them or anything of

 8     that sort.

 9        Q.   And could you please tell me something else:  Where is that Jelas

10     forest located in relation to the clover field, which is where you were

11     taken to later?

12        A.   It's about a kilometre and a half to 2 kilometres away.

13        Q.   Does that mean that if you were going from Lovas towards the

14     Jelas forest you would pass by this field on your way there?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   He goes onto say that he told that officer that no action to

17     search the field was to be taken without the authorisation of the

18     commander of the 2nd Infantry Motorised Brigade, but some Captain

19     Markovic reacted and said that some sort of action should be taken.

20             Have you heard of that name?

21        A.   No, I haven't.  The only name I know is Marko Kovac.  The only

22     officer's name I know is Marko Kovac.  As for the other officers, I don't

23     know them.

24        Q.   He then says that he provided Devetak with information, that he

25     hadn't been spoken to.  He went to see the company commander of the Ljig

Page 1871

 1     TO.  And when he went to Lovas on the 21st of October, 1991, that was the

 2     next time he went there, so that the Valjevo TO could be rotated, he was

 3     then informed about locals who had been killed in the village, in the

 4     minefield, and he was told that the entire procedure was under the

 5     authority of the security organs of the 2nd Guards Infantry Motorised

 6     Brigade and the 1st Guards Infantry Battalion.

 7             What I'm interested in is:  When this happened, after the event,

 8     did anyone from those organs who were supposed to be involved in this

 9     procedure to determine what had happened in the minefield, did anyone

10     from those organs speak to the locals from Lovas, to the local Croats

11     from Lovas, to some of those, in fact, who had been taken to the

12     minefield and who had been wounded or who, in fact, hadn't been wounded

13     there?

14        A.   As far as I know, no one spoke to anyone.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is his Official Note on the

16     report.

17             [In English] At this moment I would tender this document into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Marked for identification is the proposal, I

20     suppose.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  I spoke to counsel originally and I had said that

24     on principle I didn't have any objections to it being tendered.  However,

25     I'm afraid this is not the right witness.  He has said the first

Page 1872

 1     paragraphs contains wrong information, and in all the paragraphs after

 2     that, he said that he can't confirm anything, not the names, not the

 3     information.  So I don't think this witness has laid a sufficient

 4     foundation for it to be admitted.  But I don't have a problem with it

 5     being MFI'd for later use with a proper witness, but the MFI status would

 6     not be on the basis of a lack of translation, in my view.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't think we would MFI pending another

 8     witness if -- if -- if there is no nexus between this witness and the

 9     document.

10             There is another solution, Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  There is no nexus between this witness and the

12     witness who provided this information, but there is a close nexus between

13     testimony of this witness and information provided by this person.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Again, I can only refer to the record.  The first

15     paragraph was read to the witness, and he said the information about them

16     being there to prevent certain crimes is absolutely wrong and that they

17     did the opposite.

18             He was asked about the information provided in this document

19     about Tovarnik.  He said he didn't know.

20             He was asked about this -- I'm sorry, my Cyrillic is --

21     Dimitrijevic or -- that name.  He said he wasn't familiar with that

22     person.  In the next paragraph about Jelas, he was asked if he was

23     familiar with the sniper firing.  He said he didn't.  And that that

24     continued.  He confirmed nothing in this document.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 1873

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, the document fails -- fails nexus,

 2     and it will not be admitted through this witness.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that the witness -- that's your decision,

 4     okay.  I will not comment.  Okay.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] In your statement, you said that 70 locals went

 6     from Lovas to Ilok.  Well, today, in fact, you said 60.  But that's not

 7     the point of my question.  But I noticed that, amongst other things, you

 8     said that prior to the meeting -- in fact, could you have a look at your

 9     statement.  It's the second paragraph.

10             It says that an officer -- or, rather, it says that an ultimatum

11     was issued to the local inhabitants of Lovas, and it says it was decided

12     not to mount any resistance because that would have been ineffective.

13     And in the second paragraph you say:

14             I mustn't forget to say that immediately prior to the meeting of

15     the local inhabitants, one day earlier several Croatian policemen from

16     Ilok came to the village and they collected the Kalashnikovs, a few

17     Kalashnikovs that we had, and they took them to Ilok.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could you tell us something about these Kalashnikovs.  What do

20     you know about them?

21        A.   I didn't see them, but I know that people said that the police

22     arrived and they took several Kalashnikovs.

23        Q.   Did they take them from anyone?

24        A.   I don't know.  All they said is that they appeared and left with

25     those Kalashnikovs.  I assumed that the Kalashnikovs were in the

Page 1874

 1     municipality building because of the guards that were being mounted.  I

 2     didn't see them.  As I said, I had a hunting rifle.

 3        Q.   Does that mean that there were others who would mount guard and

 4     who had these Kalashnikovs on them?

 5        A.   I didn't see them.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, would this be an appropriate time?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, we will take the second break.  We

 9     will have to take that because of earlier commitments during the break.

10     We will be back at 12.45.  You will be escorted out of the courtroom now.

11     Thank you.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll now put a few questions to you about the

20     incident in the minefield.  And, to be more specific, about the time when

21     the first mine was activated.

22             In your statement, you said the following -- in the Croatian

23     version it's on page 6, paragraph 3.

24             You said that after you had covered about 10 metres, someone

25     cried out and said that he had seen a wire and then an explosion was

Page 1875

 1     heard.

 2             What I would like know is whether you could tell us, how much

 3     time passed between the point when someone said that he saw a wire until

 4     the time that the explosion was heard?

 5        A.   Perhaps a second or two.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic --

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry?

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- page 6, paragraph 3 of what?

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Of B/C/S.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  B/C/S of what?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Of -- of the witness statement.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Can we have it on the screen?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just, Your Honour, I tell you what is the

14     paragraph in English.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, is it the 1996 statement to the --

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  1996 statement -- statement is dated the 6th and

18     7th February 1996.  It is --

19             MS. BIERSAY:  It's 65 ter number --

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  -- 3253.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  243 -- or 213.  I cannot read properly.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  It's tab 14, I believe, from the Prosecution, and

24     it's 65 ter number 3253, if that assists.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I think it ...

Page 1876

 1             Yes, we have it on the screen.  It is page -- it is page 6 in

 2     B/C/S, and ...

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  So -- tab 9, 65 ter number 2236.  Let's see if

 5     that's the one you have in mind.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a precise purpose to

 7     go back to this statement?  This is a viva voce witness.  We do agree,

 8     right?

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  That's the statement I refer to.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I wanted to put the witness -- to -- to put some

12     question related to the event of 18 of October to the witness.  If it is

13     not necessary, I will not do it -- do that.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, it's up to know whether it is necessary or

15     not.  I'm just a little bit surprised by the fact that you go to a prior

16     statement while the witness gave ample testimony about this in court.

17             But go ahead.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, we shouldn't use this statement, okay, I

19     agree.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] In any event, you mentioned the time when the

21     first mine was activated and what I'm interested in, irrespective of what

22     you said in the statement, is how much time elapsed from the time when

23     someone shouted out and said that he seen a mine until the point in time

24     when the mine exploded, and I believe your answer was that it was a

25     second or two.

Page 1877

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Could you please tell me how far you were from the place where

 3     the first mine was activated?

 4        A.   About 10 to 15 metres away.

 5        Q.   And here you say that Ivan Kraljevic accidentally activated the

 6     first mine.

 7        A.   Yes.  That is what first occurred to me.  At that point in time,

 8     that's what I thought, and I still believe that that was the case.

 9        Q.   I have another question about the subsequent clearing of the

10     minefield.  I believe that you said that you received instructions,

11     according to which, once you a noticed a wire, you -- to inform them of

12     the fact and everyone were to lie down on the ground -- everyone had to

13     lie down on the ground until the person who had spotted a mine managed to

14     deactivate it.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And that warning was issued by a soldier.

17        A.   Yes.  One of those who were up there on the road.

18        Q.   Once the mines were disarmed, you went up to the road.  I believe

19     that that was done according to the instructions.  Once you disarmed the

20     mines, you were supposed to bring them up to the roads, to the soldiers.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you see that the clover at some places in the field, did you

23     see that from the position on the road?  Did you see that the clover was

24     trampled on?

25        A.   Yes, you could see four tracks where the lines had been laid.

Page 1878

 1     The road was about 3 or 4 metres above the field, and you could see

 2     clearly that somebody had walked through the field and left their traces

 3     in the form of four lines.

 4        Q.   When you were walking through the clover field and you said that

 5     the clovers were about 30 centimetres high, did you not see the same

 6     thing, that the clovers were trampled on at places?

 7        A.   Only when we arrived and when the first mine went off, we saw the

 8     passages through the clover field, we saw the thin wires.  It was only

 9     then that it dawned on us that the field had been mined.

10        Q.   And then you drew a logical conclusion that there were other

11     places where the clovers were trampled on, where mines had been laid.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And let me put just one more question to you.  It concerns the

14     part of your statement in which you stated that you were walking in the

15     direction of the minefield, escorted by soldiers, and that you acted as

16     human shields for those soldiers.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And that continued until you reached the clover field.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And, later on, when you reached the clover field, what happened

21     to the soldiers?  Were they still with you?  Did they go elsewhere?

22        A.   They remained standing on the road.  We were spread.  We turned

23     right.  They remained on the road.  They made us face the forest.  One

24     group came after us, some ten or 15 of them, and the others remained

25     standing on the road.

Page 1879

 1        Q.   When you say that they made you face the forest, are you talking

 2     about the forest called Jelas?

 3        A.   They -- we did not face the forest because the forest was about

 4     1 to 1 and a half kilometres away from the minefield, but they were

 5     facing that direction, the direction of the forest.

 6        Q.   But was it Jelas forest?

 7        A.   Jelas forest is about a kilometre and a half from the minefield

 8     so we could not see the forest because it was in a depression.  We

 9     couldn't see it.  We just faced that direction, the direction of the

10     administrative building of the agricultural co-operative.

11        Q.   I just wanted to make sure that we're talking about that forest

12     or some other forest.

13        A.   No.  Jelas forest is about a kilometre and a half away from that

14     place.

15        Q.   Just one -- one more time.  Let's clarify this.

16             Although the forest was about a kilometre or a kilometre and a

17     half away from the minefield, it was still Jelas forest; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And just one more thing, and I believe that it is going to be my

20     last question.

21             Those soldiers that remained behind you once you reached the

22     clover field and when they made you face the clover field with Jelas

23     forest in the distance, where were those soldiers?  Not the ones on the

24     road but the others.

25        A.   They were behind our backs, some ten to 15 metres behind us.

Page 1880

 1        Q.   In practical terms, you were no longer acting as their human

 2     shield; right?

 3        A.   We were in front of them.

 4        Q.   At a distance of some ten to 15 metres?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I have nothing further.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

 8     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             Anything in re-direct, Ms. Biersay?

11             MS. BIERSAY:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, this time it's for real, this is the

13     end of your testimony.  You're now released as a witness and we wish you,

14     once again, a safe journey back home.  Thank you very much.

15             THE WITNESS:  Thanks.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Nothing else on the agenda?

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Not on behalf of the Prosecution.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Not on behalf of the Defence.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

21             Court adjourned.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.02 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of

24                           November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.