Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1942

 1                           Monday, 3 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

13     please.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15             Douglas Stringer with Matthew Olmsted, Case Manager

16     Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the Prosecution.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             Could we go into private session for a minute, please.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I just want to inform you that one of Defence

21     exhibits, it is D16, was admitted into evidence just in English version,

22     in English translation.  Somehow original -- B/C/S original was omitted.

23     It is a judgement of War Crime Chamber of the High Court in Belgrade from

24     the Lovas case and it could be found in e-court under doc ID 1D002203.

25     And I just like to -- to put it in the record so that the Trial Chamber


Page 1944

 1     could instruct the Registrar to put the original of this document into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So of the English version already is --

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- and now we can have the B/C/S version.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8             Mr. Stringer.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             I'm not sure -- I believe that I have in mind the same document

11     or judgement that counsel has just referred to.  Prosecution position --

12     I don't know if this is -- I believe this has not yet been admitted and

13     there was an issue as to whether it should be admitted.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is a Defence exhibit number.  Is it MFI'd,

15     Mr. Registrar?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  The document has been admitted into evidence as

17     Defence Exhibit D16 on 26th of November through Witness Cirba, Zeljko.

18     Thank you.

19             MR. STRINGER:  I have another judgement in mind for which we will

20     be filing a submission.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May the witness be brought in.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the original can be admitted as well,

24     Mr. Registrar.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 1945

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Rendulic.  Can you hear me in a

 2     language you understand?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  I can

 4     hear you very well.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 6             Now could you state your name and your date of birth for the

 7     record, please.  And give -- give your ethnicity.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Adam Rendulic, 19 November 1947.

 9     Croat.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You will to make a solemn declaration

11     by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point

12     out to you that making that declaration you expose yourself to the

13     penalties of perjury should you give false or untruthful information to

14     the Tribunal.  Could you now read the solemn declaration, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           WITNESS:  ADAM RENDULIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is it your witness, Mr. Olmsted?

22             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you.

25                           Examination by Mr. Olmsted:


Page 1946

 1        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Rendulic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   I want to begin by asking you a few questions about your

 4     background.

 5             Can you tell us, where do you currently live?

 6        A.   I live in Lovas, where I was born.

 7        Q.   And how are you employed?

 8        A.   I am still director of the agricultural co-operative in Lovas.

 9        Q.   And is it correct that after high school you received an

10     agricultural degree from Banja Luka university?

11        A.   Yes.  That's where I graduated from the higher school of

12     agriculture.

13        Q.   And after completing university, did you return to Lovas in about

14     1969?

15        A.   Yes, I returned to Lovas in 1968.

16        Q.   And where did you begin working?

17        A.   [No interpretation].  First I went to do my military service in

18     Pozarevac and then I returned from Pozarevac in 1968.

19        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And where did you begin

20     working when you returned to Lovas?

21        A.   I started working immediately in the agricultural co-operative in

22     Lovas in December 1969.

23        Q.   And when did you become director of that co-operative?

24        A.   I became director in 1975.

25        Q.   And I just want to check the date.  You said 1975?

Page 1947

 1        A.   Oh, sorry, 1985.  1985 I became director.

 2        Q.   No problem.  Can you tell -- oh, go ahead.

 3        A.   Yes, I became director in 1969.

 4        Q.   Let's make sure we just have this correct.

 5             Is director the same as general manager?

 6        A.   Yes, something like that.

 7        Q.   And when you started in 1969, you were not the general manager?

 8        A.   No, no.  I became general manager in 1985.

 9        Q.   I think that clarifies that.

10             Now, could you tell us a little bit about this co-operative back

11     in 1990, 1991, what it did, and how big it was.

12        A.   The agricultural co-operative of Lovas was mainly engaged in

13     farming and organising our co-operators.  We had about 1900 hectares and

14     we had about 82 staff members.  We organised our co-operants by financing

15     and giving them loans; and, later on, we organised our own production,

16     including vineyards and orchards.

17        Q.   And what were the ethnicities of the staff at the co-operative?

18        A.   They were mainly Croats, plus a few Serbs.

19        Q.   And have you ever held any political office?

20        A.   No, never.

21        Q.   And have you been a member of any political party?

22        A.   Yes.  I was a member of the League of Communists.

23        Q.   Until when?

24        A.   Until 1991.

25        Q.   Were you ever a member of the HDZ party?

Page 1948

 1        A.   No, never.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  May we bring up P233.140.  This is tab 33.

 3             Your Honours, I think this was originally tendered under seal but

 4     I don't believe there is any reason for it to be under seal.  So I think

 5     we can go ahead and broadcast it.  I don't know if we have removed that

 6     designation.

 7             It has been indicated to me that we have not removed that

 8     designation, so the Prosecution would move at this time to remove the

 9     under seal designation of this exhibit.  There really is no reason, as we

10     can see.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll have to believe you on this one,

13     Mr. Olmsted, because we can't verify for the moment.  But if you say

14     there is no problem, the -- the -- confidential status will be lifted.

15             Please do so, Mr. Registrar.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you.  If we could zoom in to the area that's

17     south-west -- or south-east of Vukovar.  It's kind of the little bit that

18     sticks out to the east on the right-hand side of the map.  Zoom in a

19     little bit more, into that area, that finger.  Okay.  Now if we scroll

20     down and scroll to the right.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Sir, can you tell us, generally speaking, what was the ethnic

22     majority in the villages in this area of Western Srem that's south-east

23     of Vukovar?

24        A.   In this Srem triangle, as we call it, Lovas, Tovarnik and up to

25     Ilok from Vukovar, the majority population was exclusively Croat.  And

Page 1949

 1     that's why the border is so winding because when the border was drawn

 2     after the Second World War, it was drawn alongside Croat villages.  If it

 3     had been straight, these Croat villages would have ended up in Serbia, in

 4     Vojvodina.  That's why the boundary is so meandering because of these

 5     Croat villages.

 6        Q.   And can you just confirm, was this the case with regard to the

 7     villages that are coloured in red, were they all ethnic majority of

 8     Croat?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you've given us a little bit about the historical

11     significance of the oddly shaped boundaries.

12             Can you tell us, what about the Serb population in this area?

13     Were they originally from this Western Srem triangle, as you called it?

14        A.   Well, one smaller part is.  The second part was populated,

15     settled by Serbian population from Banja and Kordun after the

16     Second World War.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  And could we just scroll up a little bit.  I just

18     want to -- we're missing a village in there.  Okay, thank you.  That's

19     perfect.

20        Q.   Could you please -- just so question put in context some of your

21     evidence, can you circle for us Lovas?

22        A.   Here is Lovas.

23        Q.   And could you tell us, prior to the conflict, how many people

24     lived in that village?

25        A.   About 1700.

Page 1950

 1        Q.   And what was the ethnic makeup of that village?

 2        A.   The greatest majority were Croats.  There was only 18 -- sorry,

 3     8 per cent of Serbs; namely, 133 residents were Serb.

 4        Q.   Can you now circle Sotin?

 5        A.   Sotin is here.

 6        Q.   And what was the population of Sotin?

 7        A.   I don't know exactly, but I believe there were more Serbs in

 8     Sotin than in Lovas.

 9        Q.   And how many people lived in Sotin ?

10        A.   Also around 1700.  Perhaps around 20 per cent were Serb.

11        Q.   And can you circle Tovarnik for us.

12        A.   Tovarnik ... wait a minute.  Here it is.  Tovarnik.

13        Q.   And can you tell us what the population of Tovarnik was.

14        A.   Again, the majority were Croats, but there were also Serbs.  I

15     don't know exactly how many.  But certainly fewer than Croats, a lot

16     fewer.

17        Q.   And can you give us a rough number of the total people -- number

18     of people who lived in Tovarnik?

19        A.   About 3.000.

20        Q.   Now could you circle for us Bapska?

21        A.   Bapska is here.

22        Q.   And can you tell us about the population in Bapska.

23        A.   Bapska was exclusively Croat, in terms of population.

24        Q.   And roughly how many people lived there?

25        A.   Again, around 1700, the same as in Lovas.

Page 1951

 1        Q.   And, finally, could you circle Ilok.

 2        A.   Ilok is here.

 3        Q.   And what was the population in Ilok?

 4        A.   Again, it was a predominantly Croat population.  There were some

 5     Slovaks, more Slovaks than Serbs.  Serbs were in a significantly smaller

 6     number.

 7        Q.   And what was the total population in Ilok before the conflict?

 8        A.   Around 6.000.

 9        Q.   Prior to May 1991 - I want to return to Lovas, where you lived -

10     prior to May 1991, how were the relations between the Croats and the

11     Serbs in your village?

12        A.   Before and in the course of 1990 before the war escalated, the

13     relations between Serbs and Croats were very good.

14        Q.   And can you tell us how many police officers were assigned to

15     Lovas?

16        A.   Lovas did not have a police station of its own.  There were a few

17     policemen from Lovas who worked in police stations in Vukovar and

18     Tovarnik.

19        Q.   Let's clarify your last answer.  You said there were a few

20     policemen from Lovas -- I understand, okay.

21             So the police officers who came to Lovas, where was their

22     station?

23        A.   In Tovarnik and in Vukovar.

24        Q.   And you said there were a few police officers who were assigned

25     to Lovas.  What were their ethnicities?

Page 1952

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in 1991, they were mainly

 3     Croats.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Witness already answered that question.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  I don't see where he answered the question.

 8        Q.   I -- my question is:  You said there were three police officers

 9     or a few police officers who came to Lovas regularly to patrol or to

10     perform duties in Lovas.  And my question to you is:  Those few police

11     officers, what were their ethnicities?

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted -- Mr. Witness, just one moment.

13             Where did the witness -- or when did the witness say that there

14     were police officers assigned to Lovas?  I must have missed that.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Line 17.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  If I look at page 10, line 11 says:  There were a

18     few policemen from Lovas.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, there were a few policemen from -- from.

20     And I think the next line is a question.  It's not an answer.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Then I'll clarify.  I thought it was clarified but

22     let me clarify that matter.

23        Q.   Sir, can you tell us how many police officers were assigned to

24     Lovas; in other words, they performed duties in Lovas prior to the

25     conflict?

Page 1953

 1        A.   It all depends on whether you mean 1991 or before 1991.  I

 2     understood we were talking about the period before 1991.  At that time,

 3     police came from Tovarnik to Lovas on patrol, mainly two policemen.  In

 4     the earlier years, one was Muslim and one was Serb.  They came from

 5     Tovarnik.

 6             Later on, two Serbs would come, one called Rudic, a native of

 7     Lovas, and another one from Tovarnik.  Before the war, they would do

 8     police work in Lovas.  Before 1991.

 9        Q.   And now can you tell us:  In 1991, did that change?

10        A.   In 1991, with the establishment of the Croatian state, things did

11     change.  There was a police station in Tovarnik, and, at that time, from

12     Lovas, there were a few policemen who went to work to Tovarnik and

13     Vukovar.

14        Q.   What about in Lovas itself?  Did the number of police officers

15     who would come to Lovas to perform duties, did that change in 1991?

16        A.   Well, yes, that changed.  Croats would mainly come, but also

17     Mica Devcic, for instance, was a Serb, a native of Lovas, who worked in

18     Vukovar.

19        Q.   And can you give us roughly in this period of 1991 - obviously

20     before October - how many police officers would be assigned to Lovas

21     itself?

22        A.   Well, policemen did not work in Lovas.  The station was in

23     Tovarnik, and they would come to Lovas from Tovarnik.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, were you aware of an armed skirmish that

25     occurred on the 2nd of May, 1991, in Borovo Selo?

Page 1954

 1        A.   Oh, yes, I know about that very well.  That's when 13 policemen

 2     got killed, I believe.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  If I might interrupt before we go on.  I'm still

 4     confused about this police coming to Lovas.  We know that there was no

 5     police station there.  Could you get the witness do expand on how this

 6     worked in terms of policemen coming to Lovas if there was no police

 7     station?  I mean, they passed through or what?  What was going on?

 8             MR. OLMSTED:

 9        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, did you understand the Judge's question?  Could you

10     answer it, please.

11        A.   Yes, I understood.

12             Police officers who were employed by the police worked at the

13     police station in Tovarnik.  They lived in Lovas and they went to work in

14     Tovarnik.  And they would come to Lovas only if required, just like

15     things worked before 1991, as I explained.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So the -- if required, on average, say, in a month,

17     how many times would the police officers then have to come to Lovas?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same as earlier.  They would

19     come on a weekly basis, collect information, see if there were any

20     problems, any situations, any incidents, and then decisions would be

21     made.  But they would come once a week, I suppose.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Rendulic.

23             [Microphone not activated].

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted just one -- just one moment, please.

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Prosecutor.  Sorry.

Page 1955

 1             Witness, we're still on this story about policemen.

 2             On page 12 of the transcript, you said there were two police

 3     officers, of which one was Serb and the other was a Muslim.  These two

 4     used to come to Lovas.  And later, also two policemen came, and they were

 5     Serb.  And yet later, we have two Croat policemen.

 6             Was there a particular reason for the ethnic composition of the

 7     team of police who would come to Lovas?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said we had to

 9     distinguish between 1991 and the period before.

10             These policemen, Serbs, came before 1991.  With the establishment

11     of the Croatian state, things changed.  And also there was no police

12     station in Lovas.  The police came from Tovarnik as required.

13             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  It's clear

14     now.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Welcome.

16             MR. OLMSTED:

17        Q.   All right.  Now you've testified that you're familiar with the

18     incident on the 2nd of May, 1991 in Borovo Selo and we have evidence

19     already before this Trial Chamber about that incident.

20             But can you tell us what effect did this event have on the

21     citizens of Lovas?

22        A.   It had a negative effect on people in Lovas and around it.

23     Thirteen police officers, Croats, were killed, and obviously this created

24     some tensions, problems, nervousness, among the villagers.  And the

25     situation became a bit more complicated as of then on.

Page 1956

 1        Q.   Did any of the Serbs in Lovas around this time leave Lovas?

 2        A.   No, nobody left Lovas.

 3        Q.   What about before May?  Did any of the Serbs from Lovas leave?

 4        A.   Well, yes.  Young men left Lovas.  I asked their parents where

 5     they went, and their interpretation was that they had gone to Vojvodina

 6     to look for work.  Later on, it turned out that they were not telling the

 7     truth.

 8        Q.   And were these young Serb men under any pressure by the Croat

 9     population to leave Lovas?

10        A.   No.  There were no pressures put on anybody in Lovas, including

11     Serbs.

12        Q.   And you've testified that later on it turned out that they were

13     not telling the truth.  What did you find out later on?

14        A.   When I went to Sid to negotiate, I found them as members of the

15     paramilitary formations in Tovarnik.

16        Q.   Now, at some point in 1991, was a Crisis Committee formed in

17     Lovas?

18        A.   Well, yes.  After the events in Borovo Selo, after the Croatian

19     police officers were killed, Crisis Staffs were formed everywhere in

20     several villages, including Lovas.

21        Q.   And can you provide us with the names of some of the members of

22     the Crisis Committee, if you can recall them?

23        A.   I can't remember all of them, but Jozo Milas was its president.

24     Then Djuka Pilic.  I myself was a member.  Ivo Madzarevic was another

25     one.  There was some ten or so people.  Zeljko Cirba was one of them.  I

Page 1957

 1     can't remember all of their names.

 2        Q.   That's fine.  Can you tell us, when did you become a member of

 3     this Crisis Committee?

 4        A.   I became a member sometime in the month of July.  I was recruited

 5     to join the Crisis Staff.

 6        Q.   And what was the purpose of this Crisis Committee, or Crisis

 7     Staff, as you called it?

 8        A.   The purpose was to monitor the developments in the village and in

 9     the other villages as well, to maintain contacts, because the situation

10     was compounded by the developments in Borovo Selo, and the situation

11     didn't bode well for the future.

12        Q.   And were the meetings of the Crisis Staff public?

13        A.   Yes, they were mostly public.  Everybody could attend.  Even some

14     Serbs attended.

15        Q.   And can you tell us, what measures did the Crisis Staff implement

16     to increase security in Lovas?

17        A.   Well, we mostly worked on contacts and communication with the

18     people in the village, with the Serbs.  That's why we held meetings with

19     the Serbs, in order to agree on the ways to maintain the integrity and

20     the life as it was before 1991.

21        Q.   Were check-points established around Lovas?

22        A.   Yes, they were.  After all the unfortunate events, check-points

23     were set up at perhaps seven or eight places around the village.

24        Q.   And can you tell us the period during which these check-points

25     existed, roughly?

Page 1958

 1        A.   Well, sometime in June, or perhaps July, that's when they were

 2     set up.

 3        Q.   And for how long did they exist for?

 4        A.   They existed until up to the 29th of November, 1991.

 5        Q.   We have the date 29th of November, 1991.  Can you confirm that

 6     that's correct?

 7        A.   Yes, I believe that I -- that's what I said.

 8        Q.   Let me ask you this:  When did you leave Lovas?

 9        A.   I left Lovas on the 10th of October, which was the day when the

10     attack on Lovas was mounted.

11        Q.   And did -- were these check-points still in existence when you

12     left in October?

13        A.   No.  I said that they stopped existing on the 29th of September,

14     which means that they were not in existence in the month of October.

15        Q.   We just had to clarify that for the record because the record

16     reflected the month of November.

17             Now, can you tell us who manned these check-points?

18        A.   Those check-points were manned by Croats.  They were the

19     majority, but Serbs also did so.  They were not on duty.  They would

20     often come to the check-points.  Sometimes they would even bring drinks

21     to the guys who regularly manned those check-points.

22        Q.   And were the men who manned these check-points, were they members

23     of any armed forces?

24        A.   No, there were no armed forces in Lovas.

25        Q.   And were any of these persons from outside of Lovas?

Page 1959

 1        A.   I don't know that there were any military formations outside of

 2     Lovas and that they belonged to them.

 3        Q.   No, let me rephrase my question.

 4             These men who manned the check-points in Lovas, were they from

 5     Lovas itself, or did they come from outside of Lovas?

 6        A.   They were our local guys from Lovas.

 7        Q.   And what were the duties of these men who manned these

 8     check-points?

 9        A.   One of their duties was to control who was coming to the village

10     and leaving it, to see what was going on.  Because there were already

11     groups around the village who were on reconnaissance duty.  My father was

12     approached by some troops who asked him what was going on in the village.

13     They asked him where the Serbian cemetery was, and my father answered,

14     There is no separate Serbian cemetery.

15             So the main task was to be vigilant, to make sure that no

16     incidents happened because the atmosphere was already boiling at the

17     time.

18        Q.   You mentioned their duty was to control who was coming and going

19     from the village.  Were they stopping people and preventing people from

20     leaving or entering the village?

21        A.   No, no.  It was nothing like customs control, for example.  It

22     was just a kind of visual inspection, to see what was going on around the

23     village.  Nobody was stopped or searched or controlled in that sense.

24        Q.   And how were these men who armed the -- the men who manned the

25     check-point, how were they armed?

Page 1960

 1        A.   They were on guard during the night.  During the day, there was

 2     no need for that because everybody could see everything.  It happened

 3     during the night, and they mostly carried hunting rifles.  Those men who

 4     manned the check-points during the night were given those arms by our

 5     local hunters.

 6        Q.   And, to your knowledge, during the existence of these

 7     check-points, were the weapons ever fired?  Were these hunting rifles

 8     ever fired?

 9        A.   No.  Fire was never opened.

10        Q.   And how did the local Serbs react to these check-points?

11        A.   Well, nothing.  We did everything with prior consultations with

12     them.  They were happy that there were those check-points.  They did not

13     want incidents to happen on any of the sides.  They did not want any

14     problem to come from the outside.  And they were happy.  They were

15     satisfied.  We talked to them a lot.  I myself talked to them a lot.

16     They never expressed satisfaction [as interpreted], at least those Serbs,

17     those locals of Lovas that we lived with.

18        Q.   The record says that you stated:  "They never expressed

19     satisfaction."  Can you clarify that for us?

20        A.   What I meant was that there was dissatisfaction but for some

21     other reasons.  But when it comes to people trying to maintain order in

22     the village, they were satisfied with that.

23        Q.   Now, to your knowledge, was the Crisis Committee involved in the

24     creation of any armed formations in Lovas?

25        A.   No.  As I've already told you, there were no armed formations in

Page 1961

 1     Lovas.

 2        Q.   And did the Crisis Committee acquire any explosives?

 3        A.   The Crisis Staff did not acquire any explosives, as far as I

 4     know.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us, was there a point in time when Lovas received

 6     some mines from somewhere?

 7        A.   Oh, well, yes.  Those were anti-armour mines, anti-tank mines,

 8     that were delivered from Ilok and they were returned to Ilok in late

 9     September.  Those mines were from Ilok.  We didn't want to use them.

10     They remained at the depot, and they were returned to Ilok on the

11     29th of September.  And they came from Ilok, because, at one point in

12     time, there was a lot of military activity going on around Ilok,

13     including JNA tanks.

14        Q.   And how many anti-tank mines were received?

15        A.   I don't know exactly.  Some 15 or so, I would say.

16        Q.   And why weren't they used?  Why weren't they planted anywhere?

17        A.   They were not planted because the village functioned normally.

18     People would go into the fields with tractors to farm the land, and

19     that's why we thought that it would have been more of a problem if we had

20     planted those mines than if we hadn't.

21        Q.   Now, did the Crisis Staff take any actions to dispel any concerns

22     of the Serb population?

23        A.   I've already told you, I talked a lot with the Serbs.  We had a

24     meeting in Mirko Lovric's house.  He was a Serb.  And they themselves

25     gathered and invited us to come, and it was not the other way around.  We

Page 1962

 1     did not want to always invite them.  We didn't want those initiatives

 2     always to come from us.  We told them, Okay, whenever you want, you

 3     gather wherever you want and invite us and we'll come and talk to you.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us approximately when this meeting at Mr. Lovric's

 5     house occurred?

 6        A.   I believe that that was immediately after the incident in Borovo.

 7     The end of May or perhaps the beginning of June 1991.

 8        Q.   Sometime in July 1991, do you recall an incident involving the

 9     JNA at the Lovas co-operative?

10             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Olmsted.  There's a small point, nothing

11     may turn on it.  But before you go into another area --

12             Mr. Rendulic, you mentioned earlier that you had been recruited

13     to the Crisis Staff.  My question is in two parts.  The first part is,

14     does it mean you didn't volunteer; and the second part is, who recruited

15     you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, I volunteered.

17     However, that was upon the invitation of my secretary who worked with me

18     in my company and he was the president of the Crisis Staff, so when he

19     asked me whether I would join, in view of the fact that I had a

20     possibility to influence people through the farm, although I was not an

21     HDZ member, he was of an opinion that I would make a great contribution

22     in calming the situation down between the Croats and the Serbs, which is

23     why he invited me to join.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you very much, sir.

25             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

Page 1963

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Now, I want to turn to my question.  Sometime in July 1991, do

 3     you recall an incident involving the JNA soldiers at the Lovas

 4     co-operative?

 5        A.   Well, yes, I remember there was a minor incident.  The military

 6     came.  I don't know whether they were reservists or the regular JNA.

 7     They came to the farm.  They removed the Croatian flag from the building.

 8     They made a guard do it.  And then they forced Nikica Maric to climb a

 9     silo, which is about 22 metres high, and to remove the flag from there.

10     Nobody wanted to do that so they forced Nikica Maric to do that.  And

11     further on, they demanded from the guard the key to a cupboard where two

12     rifles were locked up.  Those rifles belonged to the guards.  Those were

13     M-48 old rifles.  The troops took the key from the guard.  They took the

14     rifles away.  They promised that they would return them to us, but they

15     never did.

16        Q.   In August 1991, did you attend a meeting with any members of the

17     JNA?

18        A.   Well, yes.  There were a lot of contacts with the JNA.  In the

19     month of August, the road between Tovarnik and Lovas or, rather, Sid was

20     blocked.  At that time, we still used Sid which is in Serbia.  People

21     went there for various things, for example, to buy medicines and other

22     things.  Vukovar was already encircled.  So we could no go to Vukovar so

23     we had to go to Sid.  The reservists of the Novi Sad Corps blocked the

24     road and they no longer allowed the police officers to go to Tovarnik

25     where they worked.  Myself, Djuro Prodanovic and Zeljko Cirba went to

Page 1964

 1     talk to the reservist in order to ask him to lift the blockade of the

 2     road to allow the free passage of our villagers and they did that.

 3        Q.   And do you remember the name of the JNA officer with whom you met

 4     that day?

 5        A.   I -- they told us that they were reservist from the Novi Sad

 6     Corps.  There was a lieutenant-colonel, a younger man, whose name I don't

 7     remember, and another one was a Major Radosavljevic who told us that he

 8     was from Sid.  He knew us.  He was familiar with Lovas.  He often came to

 9     Lovas to do some business there, and he said that he was a familiar with

10     a lot of people from Lovas.

11        Q.   And did this JNA major tell you -- tell the Lovas delegation

12     anything, as far as information he had about Lovas and Tovarnik?

13        A.   He told us at the place where we were that he knew Lovas, that he

14     knew people, that it was a peaceful village, that there were no problems

15     in that village.  He told us that they -- they had been sent from the

16     Novi Sad Corps with an instruction, according to which that there were

17     2.000 Ustasha there, and that was not true, which they finally realised

18     themselves.  And at the end of that meeting he said, Don't touch us.  We

19     won't touch you.

20        Q.   Can you tell us how many armed men were there in Lovas at this

21     time?

22        A.   Armed people.  I don't know.  If you want to take into account

23     hunting rifles, I would say that some 35 men were armed, but the arms in

24     question were hunting rifles.

25        Q.   Prior to the attack on Lovas, was there ever a ZNG unit in the

Page 1965

 1     village?

 2        A.   Before the attack at the beginning of May, there was a group of

 3     some ten to 12 men who were ZNG.  They were billeted in the old school.

 4     They were there for perhaps ten or 15 days, after which they left.

 5        Q.   And while they were in Lovas for this short period of time, what

 6     were they doing?

 7        A.   Nothing.  They drove their cars around the village.  They went

 8     to -- to Tovarnik and back.  Everything was calm.  Nothing was happening,

 9     and they left.

10        Q.   Do you know why they left?

11        A.   I don't know why they left.

12        Q.   Now beside this is -- strike that question.

13             Now did you give this information regarding the number of armed

14     men in Lovas, as well as this information about this ZNG unit, to the

15     major at this meeting regarding the blockade?

16        A.   I don't remember.  We discussed things quite openly.  He said

17     that he knew Lovas very well.  I really don't remember whether we

18     mentioned the ZNG members.  Our conversation was very open and very

19     correct.

20        Q.   Setting aside the ZNG unit that was in Lovas temporarily, did you

21     inform the major that his information about the 2.000 Ustasha was

22     incorrect and that there was much fewer armed men in Lovas?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And did he verify the information you provided him?

25        A.   I don't know whether he verified the information.  There was no

Page 1966

 1     need to verify anything because no information that they had was correct.

 2        Q.   Now, this meeting, did it -- where did it take place?  Did it

 3     take place at the blockade itself?

 4        A.   It was actually on the road between Tovarnik and Lovas.  It was

 5     in a field by that road.

 6        Q.   And during this meeting, did you have the opportunity to inspect

 7     any of the JNA vehicles?

 8        A.   Well, as we were talking, I told that major I have never seen a

 9     tank.  And he told me, Do you want to see one?  I said yes.  He said,

10     Okay.  Climb the tank.  And then I climbed the tank.  I saw a machine-gun

11     with live ammunition, and I said, Well, now I'm looking at a tank but

12     this is live ammunition.  And even if it is, the most important thing is

13     that we -- you don't open fire.  And then one of the soldiers who was

14     sitting on the tank said, Why shouldn't we be opening fire on you

15     Ustasha?  And then the major said, You can't say that they are Ustasha.

16     They are from Lovas.  They are people who are good.  And then that

17     reservist attacked the major.  He told him, Why did you allow the police

18     and those Ustasha to go to Tovarnik and I have to be on duty here?

19             I realised that the situation was not that good, and I went back

20     to my group with Cirba and the others.  And the lieutenant-colonel who

21     was there, he says, He is a member of the Territorial Defence.  He is a

22     bit exclusive in what he says and what he does, but we will see to him so

23     you don't have to be concerned.

24        Q.   And you mentioned earlier that the JNA lifted the blockade.  When

25     did that occur?

Page 1967

 1        A.   Well, it happened as we were talking to them.

 2        Q.   I want to turn to another topic now.

 3             Were you --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, Mr. Olmsted.

 5             Mr. Witness, you -- you told us that, more or less, 30 to

 6     35 people in Lovas had hunting rifles; right?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So meaning that they were hunters.

 9             Now my question is:  At that time, did you consider them as armed

10     men?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  We considered them to be

12     civilians who were only using hunting rifles given to them by our local

13     hunters.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  My question -- my question, in fact, is:  The

15     local hunters, you -- you would not consider them to be armed men, would

16     you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, we didn't.  It's sports

18     organisation.  A sports association.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             MR. OLMSTED:

21        Q.   And, sir, if I may just clarify a little bit further

22     Judge Delvoie's question.

23             These 30 men, are you referring to the men who are manning these

24     check-points?

25        A.   Those were men not on the barricades but men who stood guard

Page 1968

 1     around the village.  We did not have any barricades around our village.

 2        Q.   Yes.  I didn't use the word "barricades."  I meant the

 3     check-points.

 4             You've mentioned that there were seven or so check-points

 5     around --

 6        A.   Yes, those were the men who manned the check-points.  But

 7     overnight, for them to feel safer not completely without weapons,

 8     huntsmen lent their weapons to other people.  I, for instance, was at a

 9     check-point, and when I left, I handed over my weapon to another person.

10        Q.   Now I want to move onto another topic.

11             Were you in Sotin on the 28th [Realtime transcript read in error

12     "22nd"] of August, 1991?

13        A.   On the 22nd of August, I was in Sotin.  I went to Sotin quite

14     often because my half-brother and his family lived there.  So I was there

15     often.  I was there on the 22nd but also on the 26th when my nephew got

16     killed in Vukovar.

17        Q.   And perhaps I misspoke.  I meant to say the 28th of August.  I

18     want to talk about events on the 28th of August in Sotin.

19        A.   On the 28th of August, I was there for the funeral of my nephew

20     who got killed in Borovo.

21        Q.   And how many people attended that funeral?

22        A.   More than 100.  Between 100 and 150 people, both from Lovas and

23     from Sotin.  My brother was from Lovas.

24        Q.   Were there any women and children at the funeral?

25        A.   Very many.  Women and children too.

Page 1969

 1        Q.   And can you tell us what happened during the course of that

 2     funeral that day.

 3        A.   When the religious rites were performed in the yard of the house

 4     where my nephew had lived, we walked from the yard up to a small park and

 5     then two planes arrived, planes of the Galeb type, and we thought they

 6     were flying to Vukovar because Vukovar was under a blockade since 19 --

 7     since the 28th.  Somebody said, Watch out, planes.  And then the whole

 8     procession scattered while my daughter and I just threw ourselves on the

 9     ground and that's when the planes started firing from machine-guns.  One

10     of the planes took a U-turn and dropped a bomb just outside the house of

11     my nephew.  Our good fortune was that we had started with the funeral

12     15 minutes earlier than scheduled.  The funeral was scheduled for

13     1600 hours, and we listened to the priest and started earlier because

14     exactly at a quarter past 4.00 p.m. that bomb was dropped outside the

15     house of my nephew, and if we had still been there, as planned before, it

16     would have killed a lot of people, hundreds of people.  And when we

17     returned finally, we found the -- the fence and the walls bullet ridden.

18        Q.   Were you able to determine who the planes belonged to?

19        A.   We knew that.  Those were JNA planes.

20        Q.   And did you suspect that the Serbs in Sotin played any role in

21     this attack; and, if so, why you believed that?

22        A.   We believed so.  Because it was widely known that funeral was

23     scheduled for 4.00 p.m. so somebody must have told them about it.  And

24     they treated it as an Ustasha funeral.

25             It was even said that we had to watch out because there would be

Page 1970

 1     an attack on Sotin.

 2        Q.   Now, after this attack on the funeral, what happened later that

 3     night in Sotin?

 4        A.   Unfortunately, that funeral could not take place until that

 5     evening.  They took the body of my nephew to the cemetery by night.  The

 6     next morning, one or two armoured vehicles entered and started firing

 7     from heavy machine-guns at the houses in Sotin.  And during that night,

 8     one busload of Sotin residents fled to Lovas.

 9        Q.   Now, in the days that followed this attack, did you have

10     opportunity to see any of the destruction in Sotin?

11        A.   Yes.  The very next morning, I went to Sotin, taking my

12     sister-in-law and her colleagues to take their things because they had

13     fled to Lovas the night before, and then I could see houses striped with

14     bullets and holes in facades and many shattered windows.

15        Q.   To your knowledge, did the population in Sotin offer any armed

16     resistance to this attack?

17        A.   No.  There was no resistance certainly.

18        Q.   You mentioned that a busload of Croat civilians from -- or

19     citizens from Sotin came to Lovas.  Roughly how many were in there bus?

20        A.   About 50 people.  It was that double bus driven by Boro from the

21     Vupik company.  He drove that bus.  Some 50, 60 people fled in that bus,

22     whereas some arrived in their own cars.

23        Q.   And these Sotin citizens who arrived in Lovas, were they carrying

24     any weapons or wearing any military uniforms?

25        A.   No, certainly not.  Those were civilians, including women and

Page 1971

 1     children, who went the next day via Lipovac to Zagreb.

 2        Q.   Now, after the night of the 28th/29th of August, was Sotin

 3     attacked again?

 4        A.   It was the night of the 28th, and after that, I think there were

 5     no more attacks.

 6        Q.   What about after Lovas was attacked?  Was Sotin ever attacked

 7     again?

 8        A.   Sotin was attacked later, after Lovas.

 9        Q.   And what was the nature of that attack?

10        A.   The usual kind.  First of all, an attack by JNA artillery; then

11     the military troops would -- came in.  The pattern was the same, for

12     Bapska, Sotin and Lovas.  Artillery first followed by infantry.

13        Q.   I want to move into September of 1991 --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, Mr. Olmsted.

15             Mr. Witness, you said that the funeral was considered -- the

16     funeral of your nephew was considered an Ustasha funeral.  Why was that?

17     Had that anything to do with what your nephew was doing when killed?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me try to make it

19     clearer.

20             The boy went with a group after being called up.  The report was

21     that Chetniks had occupied an important building in Borovo.  Those who

22     were then in Vukovar went to liberate that building, and when their group

23     arrived, the paramilitary forces and the Chetniks were already inside the

24     building.  The hall of engineers it was called.  And as they were

25     approaching the hall of engineers, one Zolja hand-held rocket was fired.

Page 1972

 1     It hit the wall.  A piece of the wall hit my nephew.  He was the last in

 2     the group to enter the building.  The others could not be hurt.  And then

 3     they saw a Chetnik hit the boy on the head, almost took his scalp off.

 4     That's what we were told later when he arrived at the hospital.

 5             So from Borovo village, those paramilitaries and

 6     Territorial Defence members raided the village, and in comparison with

 7     those paramilitary forces, he was treated as an Ustasha.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             Please proceed.  Mr. Olmsted.

10             MR. OLMSTED:

11        Q.   And just to clarify your last answer, was your nephew a member of

12     the ZNG?

13        A.   No, no.  They were also civilians.

14        Q.   Can you tell us what organisation he was with?  Was it the local

15     TO?

16        A.   No.  The local one, just as in Lovas.  There were those

17     territorial guards.  They were called in to help, to get those Chetniks

18     out of the hall of engineers in Borovo.

19        Q.   I want to move to September 1991.  What happened in Tovarnik that

20     month?

21        A.   In September 1991 is the month where a holiday is celebrated in

22     Tovarnik, a patron saint of the church.  That's when the JNA and

23     paramilitary forces attacked Tovarnik according to the same pattern:

24     First an artillery attack, followed by a raid by infantry.  Most of the

25     population fled to Lovas and, of course, they said there were a lot of

Page 1973

 1     casualties.  Towers on the churches were also destroyed, and many

 2     buildings were damaged, and half of them practically came to Lovas.

 3        Q.   Can you give us the approximate date of this attack?

 4        A.   I think it was on the 22nd.  It was Saint Matthew's.  That's the

 5     church holiday in Tovarnik.

 6        Q.   To your knowledge, were there any ZNG or other Croat armed forces

 7     in Tovarnik at the time?

 8        A.   No.  There was just the Croatian police and there were no armed

 9     units whatsoever.

10        Q.   And did the Croat population in Tovarnik offer any armed

11     resistance to this attack?

12        A.   No, there was no armed resistance because everybody fled to

13     Lovas, more or less.

14        Q.   And those who fled to Lovas, were they wearing any military

15     uniforms or carrying any arms?

16        A.   No way.  Those were mainly civilians.  From what I saw in my

17     street and in my village, and the people who came to the Crisis Staff,

18     all of them were civilians.

19        Q.   And did you have the opportunity to witness the destruction in

20     Tovarnik first-hand?

21        A.   Yes, I had the opportunity to see that when I went to Sid for

22     negotiations on the 27th and the 28th.  Negotiations with the JNA.

23        Q.   Given the level of destruction that you observed in Tovarnik,

24     were you able to conclude who engaged in that attack?

25        A.   It was not my conclusion.  I saw who was there.  Because when we

Page 1974

 1     travelled to Sid for those negotiations on the 27th September, in the

 2     afternoon, we were led by a JNA officer and we saw there a lot of JNA

 3     troops and paramilitary units.

 4             From Tovarnik until outside Sid, there were a lot of vehicles,

 5     armoured vehicles, tanks and trucks, and we saw a lot of troops.  It was

 6     a warm summer day.  They were standing outside their vehicles.  Some were

 7     even shaving in the field.  Apart from the JNA, there were paramilitary

 8     forces, many disheveled men with long beards, something that would not

 9     tolerated in the JNA.  There was a lot of destruction around,

10     transmission lines brought down, a lot of dead cattle.  The towers on the

11     Catholic church burned down.  But the main impression was the great

12     numbers of JNA troops and paramilitary unit members.  Everything

13     almost -- everything in sight was full of troops.

14        Q.   Did you see any houses in Tovarnik destroyed?

15        A.   I told you, I saw many burnt-down and destroyed houses.  The

16     roofs had burnt, and you could see holes from shells, and there were no

17     more towers on the churches, and one church was still burning.

18        Q.   Now, what were the circumstances that brought you to Tovarnik on

19     that date?

20        A.   We came because the priest, late Ivan Burik, had come to Lovas to

21     see our parish priest while I was there with a colleague to pay for the

22     funeral service for my nephew, and he said, You have to go quickly to

23     negotiate with the army in Tovarnik because Lovas will be attacked.  The

24     Howitzers and mortars are already in place.  Lovas will be attacked

25     tomorrow unless you come to Tovarnik to negotiate with the army.  So the

Page 1975

 1     three of us got ready.  Zeljko Cirba, Milan Tepavac, I, and we also took

 2     one Serb representative.  The group of us went to Tovarnik to negotiate.

 3        Q.   What ethnicity was Milan Tepavac?

 4        A.   He was a Serb.  I said we took a Serb representative.

 5        Q.   And why did a Serb attend this meeting?

 6        A.   Well, I said that we in the Crisis Staff did not conceal

 7     anything.  All the information was open to the Serbs too.  We did not

 8     want to have any exclusively Croat groups, and we always co-opted Serb

 9     representatives for negotiations.

10        Q.   So at the time of this meeting, were there Serbs who were members

11     of the Crisis Staff?

12        A.   As far as I know, there were no official members but they were

13     almost regularly invited to attend meetings of the Crisis Staff because

14     there were no secrets.  All the talk was about keeping good, peaceful

15     relations in the village that we used to have.

16        Q.   And where did the meeting with the JNA ultimately take place?

17        A.   We thought it would be a meeting in Tovarnik.  However, when we

18     came, outside Tovarnik at a place called Vezic [phoen], a soldier came

19     out of an armoured vehicle.  It turned out later he was

20     Lieutenant-Colonel Savkic [as interpreted].  He brought out a blanket.

21     We had brought some drinks.  We sat down.  He accepted the drinks.  We

22     talked a little.  He told us some things that took us by surprise.  He

23     said, among other things, Brothers, look at what is going on.  Why is so

24     much property destroyed in Tovarnik?  Why is there no reaction?  How long

25     will this last?  How long will it go on?

Page 1976

 1             And then he said, We have no way of talking here in Tovarnik.  We

 2     have to go to the command in Sid to continue.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And in what building in Sid did that meeting take place?

 4        A.   After the police inspection in Tovarnik, we had to go on.  We had

 5     no [indiscernible].  Then the officer didn't know who we were.  We

 6     couldn't get passes, and then we ended up in the schoolhouse.

 7        Q.   And from what you could observe at the schoolhouse in Sid, what

 8     was based there?

 9        A.   In Sid, we also saw a lot of troops at the fair-grounds, a high

10     concentration of military vehicles and troops, a lot of soldiers also

11     around the school.  Sid was crawling with army troops, JNA and I don't

12     know who else.

13             We went into a classroom in that school, and we were met by JNA

14     officers.  We thought those would be talks around a table.  However, we

15     had to sit down in places where students sit, whereas they sat on the

16     other side and started questioning us.

17        Q.   Now before we get to the substance of this meeting, on the road

18     from Tovarnik to Sid, what did you see?

19        A.   I've said already we saw a lot of troops and a large number of

20     military vehicles, tanks and trucks, and many troops were outside their

21     vehicles.  It was a very nice day.  They were standing along the road.

22             From Tovarnik all the way up to Sid, you could see large columns.

23     The area around the road was completely green from those vehicles and

24     troops.

25        Q.   Now, do you recall who from the JNA was present at this meeting

Page 1977

 1     at the school in Sid?

 2        A.   Those were all high-ranking officers.  One of them,

 3     Zelimir Petrovic talked most of the time.  He was from KOS, the military

 4     intelligence service.  That's how he introduced himself.  There was also

 5     an older man, Milic Jovic.  And the rest were majors, JNA majors who kept

 6     records, took notes, and were mainly observers of the questioning led by

 7     Zelimir Petrovic, a member of the KOS, which is the counter-intelligence

 8     service from Belgrade.

 9        Q.   And during this meeting, did the JNA officers make any claims

10     about the number of weapons in Lovas?

11        A.   They, too, had the same kind of reports we heard about when we

12     met with the Novi Sad Corps.  This one was also from Novi Sad Corps.

13     They had reports that there were many armed men in Lovas, many Ustashas,

14     that kind of report.  Although they had very precise information what

15     exactly is going on in Lovas, we said that was not true.  We said we have

16     this, this, and that.  The situation is calm.  There are no problems, and

17     what they are telling us is not true.

18        Q.   Did you have the impression that these JNA officers already were

19     aware of the number of weapons, the actual number of weapons, in Lovas?

20        A.   They do -- they -- they knew not only that.  They knew

21     everything.  He -- one of them told me, Is it true that at such and such

22     an hour on that day the lights were on at night in our school?  And he

23     told me, What was that about?  And I said, A wounded person was brought

24     on that night and we had called in Dr. Kacar, a Serb, to treat the man.

25     So they had information that a light was on at the precise hour on a

Page 1978

 1     particular day.  Of course, they knew everything else.

 2        Q.   Now did the JNA officers issue any demands on the population of

 3     Lovas?

 4        A.   Yes.  At the end of that conversation, Zelimir Petrovic said that

 5     Lovas must hand back weapons in the amount they mentioned.  We said, We

 6     don't have that many.  And then they said, Okay.  Hand over what you

 7     have.  The very next morning, a certain colonel would come together with

 8     an officer who had brought us there, and then army troops would come to

 9     collect the weapons and to check whether anything else remained in

10     houses.

11        Q.   And could you tell us the name of the officer that brought you

12     there?  I don't know if we got that on the record.  JNA officer that

13     brought you to Sid that day.

14        A.   That was Lieutenant-Colonel Radisavkic from Valjevo.

15        Q.   And what did the JNA officers tell you would happen if the Lovas

16     population did not comply with their demands?

17        A.   They said, If you don't surrender the weapons, and in the event

18     that a single bullet is fired at the army, be it in the village or in the

19     field, they would raze Lovas to the ground.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, perhaps this is a good time for the

21     break.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed it is, Mr. Olmsted.

23             Mr. Witness, we'll take the first break now.  We'll come back at

24     11.00.  The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1979

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  I would just like to announce that the Prosecution

 6     has been joined by one of our interns, Francois Braun.  And --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  It was on.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It was on.  I didn't have my headphones on.

10     Sorry about that.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  And also, I have been asked by the Registrar to say

12     on the record that the map that I showed the witness, we're not

13     interested in tendering that.  That has already been admitted and he just

14     circled a few villages.  So that can be --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Olmsted.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Rendulic.

20             I just want to return very quickly to this meeting with the JNA

21     on the 27th of September.  After the JNA officers issued these demands on

22     the population of Lovas, what did you tell them you would do with those

23     demands?

24        A.   We told them that what they were asking us to do is impossible to

25     comply with.  That we didn't have those weapons, that we would talk to

Page 1980

 1     the locals, that we would have a meeting that same evening, and that

 2     he -- that we would convey the message given to us by them in Sid.

 3        Q.   And did you, in fact, hold that meeting in Lovas?

 4        A.   Yes.  That same evening, when we returned, we held the meeting

 5     with the locals.  We told them what the situation was like.  I told them

 6     whey saw in Tovarnik and in Sid.  A lot of troops, namely.  I told them

 7     that we had to endeavour to keep peace to avoid any conflict, that we

 8     should endeavour for all the weapons to be surrendered.

 9        Q.   And how did the Lovas population respond to this information?

10        A.   Well, their reactions differed.  Most of them were afraid as to

11     what would happen because they were told that the troops would arrive in

12     the village the following morning.  They knew what had happened in

13     Tovarnik when the JNA and paramilitaries entered, that there were a lot

14     of dead and wounded people and destroyed houses.  Of course, people were

15     afraid, and during the night a lot of them left and went to Ilok.

16        Q.   And what were the age groups and genders that left that night?

17        A.   Women and children, including my own wife and children.  Mostly

18     civilians who went to Tovarnik that night.  They were afraid.  They

19     feared the arrival of the JNA and paramilitaries.  That's why almost half

20     the village left that night.

21        Q.   And did anyone in Lovas turn in their weapons?

22        A.   A certain number of people did bring the weapons.  Three

23     Kalashnikovs and the rest were hunting rifles and pistols.  Obviously

24     those pistols belonged to the hunters who had licences to carry them.

25        Q.   Could you give us roughly a number of fire-arms that were turned

Page 1981

 1     in?

 2        A.   All in all, up to 20 pieces were handed over.

 3        Q.   And why were some of the fire-arms kept by people?

 4        A.   Well, some kept the weapons.  They didn't want to hand them over.

 5     They said, This belongs to me.  I paid for it.  If the army wants to take

 6     it away from me, they can come and take it away themselves.  Because the

 7     military was aware of who had weapons.  All of those weapons were

 8     licensed by the police, so it was not a problem at all to know who had

 9     weapons, because all of those weapons were purchased against licences

10     issued by the police, as sports weapons and hunting rifles.

11        Q.   Was there any discussion about offering armed resistance to the

12     JNA?

13        A.   No, nobody mentioned that.  After what we saw in Tovarnik, I and

14     others said that we really could not resist anybody, that nothing should

15     be done, that the JNA and the paramilitary units should not be provoked

16     at all.

17        Q.   Now, what happened the next day, on the 28th of September?

18        A.   On the 28th of September, in the morning, Priest Burik came from

19     Tovarnik together with that same officer, Radisavkic.  We had a brief

20     conversation there.  We showed them the weapons that we had collected,

21     and then the officer said that that was not enough, that that's not what

22     we had discussed, that we had to come back to Sid for another round of

23     talks.

24        Q.   And who from Lovas went for that second round of talks?

25        A.   Again, myself, a Lieutenant-Colonel Antun Lovric,

Page 1982

 1     Franjo Krizmanic and a representative of the Serbs, Milan Tepavac.

 2        Q.   You mentioned a Lieutenant-Colonel Antun Lovric.  Was he an

 3     active member of any unit?

 4        A.   No.  He was actually a retired colonel of the JNA who resided in

 5     Lovas.

 6        Q.   And was this second meeting at the same location in Sid?

 7        A.   Yes.  On the way, we stopped by in Tovarnik where we talked to

 8     some former residents of Lovas who were Serbs and who were members of

 9     paramilitary formations.  And then we went to the elementary school to

10     talk to Zelimir Petrovic that time around.

11        Q.   You mentioned that on the way to Sid that day you encountered

12     some Serbs who were from Lovas.  Could you tell us the names of those

13     Serbs?

14        A.   Well, in the police station that they allegedly ran, there was

15     Zeljko Krnjaic, a man called Grkovic, and there were some other men

16     unknown to me.  And on the road, I bumped into Milan Devcic.  I have

17     already told you that he had been a Croatian police officer.  And we were

18     discussing the situation in Lovas.  Those in front of the police station

19     and Vorkapic was there, Grkovic was with them, as well as Krnjaic who was

20     allegedly the head of that police station in Tovarnik.  They told me,

21     Aco, which is my nickname, Aco, make sure that nothing happens in Lovas

22     because we will raze it to the ground.  I told them, Nothing happened so

23     far, nothing will probably happen in the future.  I bumped into

24     Milan Devcic on the road and he asked me, Aco, where is my father?  I

25     said, I saw him a half an hour ago.  He drove through the village on his

Page 1983

 1     motorbike.  He also told me, Make sure that nothing happens in the

 2     village.  And my answer was the same:  Nothing has happened so far and we

 3     will make sure that, on our side, nothing happens in the future.

 4        Q.   Just to clarify the record, you mentioned that Krnjaic was head

 5     of a police station.  What station was that?

 6        A.   It was the newly established police station, the one that was

 7     established after the fall of Tovarnik.  Either the JNA or the Serbian

 8     paramilitary formations set it up in Tovarnik.

 9        Q.   I want to now go to this meeting, this second meeting in Sid.

10     You mentioned that Colonel Petrovic was there.  What did you tell

11     Colonel Petrovic about the situation in Lovas?

12        A.   We told him that we had held that meeting the day before in

13     Lovas.  We explained to everybody what was requested from us, and that it

14     was impossible to fulfil those requests because we did not have that many

15     weapons.

16             We said that half the population had fled to Ilok during the

17     night and they asked us why they had fled.  I told them that after having

18     seen what was going on in Tovarnik, the killings, the setting houses on

19     fire, people were afraid and they fled to Ilok during the night.  And

20     then he responded that he had just arrived from Belgrade, from the KOS

21     organisation, as a KOS colonel, and he was supposed to place

22     paramilitaries under the JNA control to curb the crimes because that is

23     not what the JNA did.  That's why he had been sent to put those

24     paramilitaries under the control of JNA units in order to stop their

25     wilful behaviour.

Page 1984

 1             That's what he told us.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please instruct the witness to slow

 3     down a little.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, the interpreters are asking whether

 5     you could speak a little bit more slowly so that they can follow.

 6             And I have a question of you about your meeting, the previous

 7     one.  What exactly was requested from you?  From Lovas, I mean.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To surrender the weapons that we

 9     had, to hand it over to the military on the following day.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  On the second meeting, you -- you told the JNA

11     officer that you couldn't meet their requirements.  Was there a quotum?

12     Did you have to give them a certain amount of weapons?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  They said that we had a lot of

14     weaponry, that there were as many as 2.000 soldiers who had a lot of

15     weapons.  And that was not correct.  We told them that we probably had up

16     to 35 pieces of mostly hunting rifles.  That that's all that we could

17     hand over, that we could not meet their request because it was simply

18     unrealistic.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So their request would have been, then, the

20     weapons of about 2.000 men.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose so.  But, in

22     practical terms, it was not possible.  Because we told them that the

23     number was nearly -- not nearly as much.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. OLMSTED:

Page 1985

 1        Q.   You mentioned that Colonel Petrovic was with an organisation

 2     called KOS.  I don't know if we've heard that before.  Can you tell us

 3     what that is?

 4        A.   It's the counter-intelligence service of the then-JNA.  To be

 5     honest, I really don't know what that service did, what its main task

 6     was.

 7        Q.   During this meeting with Colonel Petrovic, did you tell him

 8     anything about how the Serb population was being treated in Lovas?

 9        A.   Well, I told him that in Lovas nothing extraordinary was

10     happening, no pressure was put on the Serbian population, the Serbian

11     population was not provoked.  I told him that everything had been calm

12     and in good order up to then.  And then I asked him, Colonel, what is

13     this?  How long is this going to go on for?  And he told me, For as long

14     as the people told us, whether what Milosevic and Tudjman were plotting

15     was, indeed, what we wanted.

16        Q.   Was Milan Tepavac at this meeting?

17        A.   Yes, Milan was with us during the first and the second meetings.

18     He mostly kept quiet.  He did not say much.

19        Q.   When you were talking about how the Serbs were being treated in

20     Lovas, did he disagree with your assessment?

21        A.   No, no.  He basically, if anything, he supported our words.  He

22     supported us in what we were saying.

23        Q.   Now what did Colonel Petrovic instruct the Lovas delegation to do

24     with regard to weapons at that point, at that second meeting?

25        A.   At that second meeting, he said the army never even wanted their

Page 1986

 1     weapons that had been handed over.  He told us to try and persuade the

 2     population to return from Ilok to Lovas.  And later Father Burik asked,

 3     What about Tovarnik?  And Petrovic told him the same, Try and persuade

 4     the population to come back, those people from Tovarnik who had fled.

 5     And when the population eventually returned, and when the weapons were

 6     collected in Lovas, they would come to verify the situation and may it --

 7     and that they would make sure that all the weapons had, indeed, been

 8     handed over.  However, they never reappeared in Lovas after that.

 9        Q.   So they never came to conduct those searches for weapons.

10        A.   No, they never came back.

11        Q.   And did -- they never collected the weapons that you had managed

12     to gather from the Lovas population?

13        A.   No, never.  They never came to pick up the weapons that had been

14     collected previously or to check whether more was collected after that.

15        Q.   Did Colonel Petrovic issue any additional warnings at this second

16     meeting?

17        A.   Save for what I have already told you about the return of the

18     population and about collecting weapons, nothing.  When we got out of the

19     house, he told the troops, These men did not do what we had agreed

20     yesterday, so there's no need for us to go to Lovas today.  The troops

21     were already line -- lined up ready to search the houses.

22        Q.   What happened to -- you mentioned the late priest Burik.  What

23     happened to him after this meeting?

24        A.   He returned to Tovarnik, and after the fall of Lovas on the

25     10th of October, when paramilitaries stormed Lovas, some seven or

Page 1987

 1     eight days later, he was killed in Tovarnik.

 2        Q.   Was his body ever found?

 3        A.   Yes.  His body was found.  It was exhumed and eventually buried

 4     in the Tovarnik cemetery.

 5        Q.   And what did the Lovas delegation do when it returned from this

 6     second meeting to Lovas?

 7        A.   We told the locals that the military would not come to the

 8     village at that point in time but that didn't mean that they would never

 9     come.  Petrovic told us that no fire should be opened on the military

10     because if one single bullet was fired, they would raze Lovas to the

11     ground.

12             During the second meeting, when we spoke to Petrovic, we told him

13     that we could not be held responsible for what was -- what was happening

14     outside of the village in the field, that we can only guarantee the

15     security situation and the safety of the military in the village itself,

16     in Lovas, not outside of it.

17        Q.   Now, what happened on the 1st of October?

18        A.   On the 1st of October, there was the first attack on Lovas.  Not

19     Lovas itself but on the perimeter of our company, including silos.  The

20     JNA that had been stationed in the Sid forest in Serbia arrived with

21     tanks close to the silos, some 3 kilometres away, and around 11.00 that

22     morning, tanks opened fire on our silos.

23             I was in my office, together with my colleagues.  We heard

24     explosions.  We thought that the centre of village was targeted, but it

25     was not the centre of village but the perimeter of the company and the

Page 1988

 1     silos.  Some ten shells all together were fired on that occasion.

 2        Q.   Were you aware of any reasons why the JNA would shell the Lovas

 3     agricultural co-op?

 4        A.   After all the talks, after all the negotiations with the army in

 5     Sid, and based on their behaviour, there was really no reason whatsoever

 6     for their attack on our facilities in Lovas.

 7        Q.   Were any Croat houses destroyed on this occasion?

 8        A.   Only one belonging to Tadija Bekcevic, who was our employee.

 9     That was the only house that was hit on that occasion.

10        Q.   And what happened on the 3rd of October?

11        A.   On the 3rd of October, there was another attack.  I sent out men

12     to collect the grains that spilled out from the silos.  And we had a

13     warehouse with apples.  The roof was destroyed.  I sent my men out to

14     protect the apples and to collect the grains from the silos.  And I went

15     to Ilok.  When I returned, I bumped into a villager and he told me that

16     there was another attack.  A tank attack from the same direction, from

17     the direction of Sid, and, again, the main target was our company.

18        Q.   Now can you tell us what happened on the 5th of October in Lovas?

19        A.   On the 5th of October, there was an attack on the village, i.e.,

20     on our church, and the church tower was set on fire by Maljutka shells

21     that were fired from tanks.  And those Maljutkas set the church tower on

22     fire on the 5th of October.

23        Q.   Were there any armed units in that church?

24        A.   No, no, never.

25        Q.   Now during this period that we've been discussing - let's call it

Page 1989

 1     the -- between 28 September through the 5th or 6th of October - did any

 2     of the Croat population who had left Lovas return to it?

 3        A.   Between the 5th and the 10th October, there was a -- a period of

 4     calm of sorts.  Nothing was happening.  Some people went to Ilok; some

 5     returned.  They had cattle in Lovas.  That's why they returned, to feed

 6     the cattle.  So there was a lot of movement between Ilok and Lovas.

 7        Q.   And now if you could tell us what happened on the morning of the

 8     10th of October.

 9        A.   In the morning on the 10th of October, there was an attack on

10     Lovas.  It started with an artillery attack, by tank shelling and mortar

11     fire which was opened on the part of the village that belonged

12     exclusively to Croats.  There were no Serb houses there.  This is the

13     eastern area in the direction of cemetery.

14             My house, which is a one-storey house, was what they targeted,

15     and some six or seven shells fell around my house.  It was prominent, and

16     they set their aims around my house which was in the Croatian part of the

17     village.

18        Q.   Prior to this attack on the 10th of October, did the JNA or

19     anyone else issue any warnings that an attack was imminent?

20        A.   No, nobody said anything.  There were no warnings, announcements

21     of any sort.

22        Q.   And you mentioned around six shells fell in the immediate

23     vicinity of your house.  Can you tell us, if you can, the total number of

24     shells that you recall falling that day?

25        A.   I know what happened around my house.  In subsequent

Page 1990

 1     conversations, I learned that some 15 to 20 shells - not more than that -

 2     fell on that day.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could have on the screen 65 ter 2961.  This

 4     is tab 21.

 5        Q.   Sir, what we have in front of us is a map of Lovas.  You

 6     mentioned that the shelling occurred in an area that was exclusively

 7     Croat.  Could you circle on this map that area that you're referring to?

 8        A.   You can see the church in the eastern part of the village.  And

 9     my street is very close to the cemetery.

10             This is the part of the village where the shells fell on that

11     day.  Nothing happened in the north-western part of the village because

12     there were some Serbian houses there.

13             In this part here, however, there were no Serbian houses at all,

14     and this is where the shells mostly fell.

15        Q.   And in that area, were there any military installations or

16     factories?

17        A.   No, no.  There were no factories or anything.

18             This is a residential area with civilian properties.  There were

19     no military there either.

20        Q.   And could you mark - maybe draw an arrow - from the direction

21     from which the shells came?

22        A.   Those shells came from the southern part of the region, from the

23     Sid-Tovarnik road, or from what we knew as Jelas forest.  This is where

24     you enter the village and this is the road leading towards Tovarnik and

25     from that direction, the shells came.

Page 1991

 1        Q.   Can you mark that arrow with an A so we can identify it later.

 2        A.   This is it.

 3        Q.   Now, you mentioned that the attack started with artillery.  What

 4     followed the attack by artillery?

 5        A.   The artillery attack -- the situation became calm for a while.

 6     We started talking.  My neighbour with two young children came to my

 7     house.  We spent some time in the cellar, and then they we went to the

 8     house of my parents-in-law, who were in the cellar in that house.  And

 9     then, while we were in that cellar, we heard infantry fire, both bursts

10     of fire and individual shots, and all of a sudden -- actually we thought

11     that it was close to our house but, no, those were dum-dum bullets that

12     exploded with a lot of noise.  I was afraid that those paramilitary units

13     reached our own houses.  However, they set out from the north-western

14     part, the same area where I already drew an arrow.  We thought that they

15     would come from Sid, but, no, they came from the direction of Vukovar,

16     from the north-west of the region.

17        Q.   And we see that you created a arrow indicating the direction in

18     which the armed forces entered Lovas.  Could you mark that with a B.

19        A.   Here.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P314.  Thank

24     you.

25             MR. OLMSTED:

Page 1992

 1        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, were any Croat homes seriously damaged during the

 2     shelling part of the attack on the 10th of October?

 3        A.   Yes, there was damage.  What I saw in my part of the street is

 4     that the house across from me was hit, killing a certain gentleman,

 5     Milan Latas, who was a Serb.  To the left of his house, again facing

 6     mine, the house was completely destroyed because it was hit directly.

 7             On my side of the street, the house of my father-in-law next door

 8     was hit by a shell, which wounded a woman, and another shell hit my

 9     father-in-law's house.

10        Q.   And after the shelling occurred and the armed units entered your

11     neighbourhood, were additional homes destroyed; and, if so, can you tell

12     us how many?

13        A.   As I said, the shelling was around 7.20.  That was damage done by

14     shells.  And when the paramilitary units entered the village, other

15     houses were damaged by infantry fire.  Soldiers went from one house to

16     another down the street, and it must have been some sort of system for

17     them.  These paramilitary units were led by Serbs, burning houses down,

18     and that's how my house was burnt down too.

19        Q.   How many houses were burnt down that day; if you know?

20        A.   About 20 to 30 houses.  I can't be more precise.

21        Q.   And can you tell us, how many Croats were killed during this

22     attack?

23        A.   That first day, we got a report from the European observers that

24     21 Croats were killed.

25        Q.   Did the European observers go to Lovas?

Page 1993

 1        A.   Yes.  From Ilok, they went to Lovas.  We had told them about the

 2     situation and they went.  I was supposed to go with them.  However, they

 3     could not guarantee my safety there, so I did not accompany them.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 5062 on the screen.  This is

 5     tab 29.  And I ask that this not be broadcast because it's protected.

 6             Now what we have in front of us is a report dated

 7     18 October 1991.  And if we could turn to page 3 of the original.  For

 8     the translation, I'm interested in 03041190.

 9        Q.   This document lists 22 Croat civilians.  Can you confirm, were

10     these among the individuals that were killed on the 10th of October?

11        A.   Yes.  These people were killed on the 10th of October.

12        Q.   And did you see the corpses or the corpse of any of these persons

13     on this list?

14        A.   I saw one body when I was fleeing from my yard.  There was one

15     body.  I later found out it was the body of Zivan Antolovic, who lived

16     not far for me.

17        Q.   And all right.  For the record we see that name under number 21.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P315, under

23     seal.  Thank you.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  That's correct, it

25     should be under seal.

Page 1994

 1        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, did the Croat population in Lovas offer any armed

 2     resistance during the attack on the 10th of October?

 3        A.   No, there was no resistance whatsoever.  Because, as I said, from

 4     the north-west, there were refugees, Serbs, displaced people, and from

 5     the other side, there was no opportunity to offer any resistance.  There

 6     were no weapons.  Nobody.  We, from that side of the village, also fled.

 7        Q.   And you mentioned that you had the opportunity to observe some of

 8     the Serb armed units that came into Lovas that day.  Can you tell us,

 9     what kind of uniforms were they wearing?

10        A.   All sorts.  There were military uniforms, camouflage uniforms,

11     and pieces of civilian clothing.  For instance, blue workers' overalls.

12        Q.   And you mentioned that they were obviously shooting their weapons

13     but in addition burning some of the houses.  Did you hear them saying

14     anything when they were in your area?

15        A.   Yes.  I overheard a lot.  When they came to my house, luckily

16     they passed by my father-in-law's house where I was in the basement with

17     my in-laws and two girls.  It's just 10 metres away from my house.  I

18     heard them open the door of my garage, enter my house.  I heard them

19     shouting, He's not at home.  The car is gone.  And one of them said, He

20     is an HDZ man.  And a neighbour of mine, Kata Gordic [as interpreted],

21     who overheard it said, trying to mollify them, No, he is not HDZ.  He is

22     a Communist.  And another one of them said, Milan, look at this, look at

23     that.  It was a Lika cap, at least I supposed so.  I heard one of the

24     paramilitary men wore a Lika cap.

25        Q.   You mentioned that you left Lovas.  Did you leave Lovas on that

Page 1995

 1     day of that attack, after you made these observations?

 2        A.   Yes.  That day I left around 12.00.  My in-laws and that woman

 3     with two children said they were going to surrender.  I said, I'm not

 4     going to surrender, I'm staying in the basement.

 5             However, a few minutes later, that neighbour woman came and said,

 6     Aca, look, your house is burning.  And before that, I heard two

 7     explosions.  They had some phosphate bombs that would turn the house into

 8     a blaze in a second.

 9             Instinctively, I ran out of the basement and I saw my house

10     burning.  I saw the curtains burning upstairs, and smoke was billowing

11     from the door.  Then somebody said to me, Aco, let's go into the yard.

12     You have this 10-metre-long yard that leads to the backyard, and when we

13     got there I entered the stable and I heard at that moment the

14     paramilitaries open the door between me and the backyard, shouting, Is

15     there anyone in the basement?  Get out.  And at that moment, I told my

16     in-laws and that woman, I am going to make a run for it.  And I did.  And

17     I ran eventually into a house that was at the end of the village.  I

18     looked back and my entire house was in flames by that time.

19             From that cornfield, I ran on until I met up with some other

20     people who had fled on the same day.

21        Q.   And where did you end up that day?

22        A.   That day, we talked, trying to decide what to do.  Some people

23     said they would stay in huts on the periphery.  I said it made no sense,

24     we should go to Ilok.  So a group of us went towards Mohovo.  In Mohovo

25     we stayed in a local office where we found some more of Lovas residents

Page 1996

 1     who had fled.  And that evening, Marin Balic from Mohovo and another man

 2     from my village went to Ilok and told them in Ilok what had happened.

 3     Whereas most of us from Lovas remained in Mohovo.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rendulic.  But given our time, I will ask you to

 5     just try to keep your answers a little bit shorter.

 6             While you were in Mohovo, did you learn which Serb forces had

 7     entered Lovas that day?

 8        A.   I found out that it was the Vorkapics and Krnjaics we discussed

 9     before who came with the paramilitaries.  In fact, it was not the JNA.

10        Q.   And who led this group, this paramilitary group?

11        A.   That paramilitary group, as we heard from Lisac who led them, the

12     Croat who had been captured in Tovarnik, was led by our local resident, a

13     Serb, Milan [as interpreted] Devetak.  And that group had about 180

14     people.

15        Q.   And after you were in Mohovo, where did you go to?  What village?

16        A.   I see here it says Milan Devetak I said, in fact, Ljuban.

17     Ljuban Devetak was his name.

18        Q.   Thank you for that correction.  After you were in Mohovo, what

19     village did you go to?

20        A.   After Mohovo we went to town, to Ilok.  Overnight, those two

21     friends of mine and I went to Ilok.

22        Q.   And when you arrived in Ilok, what was the situation in that

23     village at the time?

24        A.   You mean in the town of Ilok?

25             The situation there was rather turbulent too.  People already

Page 1997

 1     knew what was going on in Tovarnik.  Many people had come from Ilaca that

 2     was attacked, Tovarnik as well, and from Bapska.  There had been an

 3     artillery attack in Bapska and the situation was very volatile.

 4        Q.   And how many refugees were in Ilok at this time?

 5        A.   I think there were 6.000 or so residents and about 6.000 refugees

 6     from the surrounding villages.

 7        Q.   And were these refugees Croats?

 8        A.   Yes.  Only Croats.

 9        Q.   And why -- why Ilok?  Why were they all coming to Ilok?

10        A.   That was the only place it was possible to go.  Vukovar was under

11     siege.  The area on the -- in the south was also controlled by military

12     units.  The only place you could go was Ilok.  Ilok is a place on the

13     Danube river and you couldn't go any further.

14        Q.   And while you were in Ilok, were you able to observe any of the

15     JNA forces in the area?

16        A.   Yes, we saw a large concentration of JNA forces, including

17     armoured vehicles, machine-gun nests around Ilok.  Because a good part of

18     Ilok is in a depression, surrounded by elevations, so you could see very

19     well.

20        Q.   Did you see any artillery cannons or anything like that around

21     the area?

22        A.   We saw mortars, machine-gun nests, armoured vehicles on the road

23     overlooking Ilok, and that was the road from Backa Palanka to Sid.

24        Q.   And in which direction were their weapons aimed?

25        A.   All the weapons were trained at the town of Ilok.

Page 1998

 1        Q.   All right.  Now you've testified that you arrived Ilok on the

 2     10th of October.  Can you tell us what happened on the morning of the

 3     11th of October?

 4        A.   On the morning of the 11th, I was invited by the residents of

 5     Ilok, by Petar Cobankovic to come there, and join them for negotiations

 6     with the JNA.

 7        Q.   And do you know what position Mr. Cobankovic held at the time?

 8        A.   He was president of the Crisis Staff in Ilok?

 9        Q.   And did he tell you why they were inviting you to the meeting

10     with the JNA?

11        A.   They invited me to come and describe what had happened the day

12     before in Lovas.

13        Q.   And did Mr. Cobankovic explain to you the situation with the JNA

14     in Ilok up to that point in time?

15        A.   Well, the situation was calm in Ilok, except for the fact that

16     the JNA encircled Ilok from the eastern side, and it was very difficult

17     with the number of people in Ilok.  The mill was operating, and there was

18     still power at the time when the refugees came, but later on, the power

19     supply was cut off from Palanka, so the situation became more difficult.

20        Q.   Now, prior to the meeting with the JNA on the 11th of October,

21     did you learning anything about what had happened in Bapska?

22        A.   The people from Bapska said that they had also suffered an

23     artillery attack on the 5th of October, I believe, and on that occasion,

24     one of my friends, veterinarian Josip, was wounded and later succumbed to

25     that wound.

Page 1999

 1             Josip Vulic is the name, I now remember.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 418 on the screen, please.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, please.

 4             Mr. Rendulic, the report we have in front of us for the moment

 5     gives a list of buried civilians killed in the battle to liberate Lovas

 6     and then a list of combatants killed in the liberation of Lovas and there

 7     is one name mentioned, Djordjevic, volunteer from Serbia.  Do you see

 8     that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You told us no resistance was mounted in Lovas.

11     Do you know what happened to this man?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no fighting in Lovas and

13     these were not combatants.  These were civilians who did not get killed.

14     They were executed, taken away from their homes and executed.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, Mr. Rendulic.  It's not about

16     the 22 persons in the first part of the document.  It's about the next

17     name under list of combatants, and there is a name Djordjevic which would

18     be a volunteer from Serbia.  So I presume that's somebody from the other

19     side.

20             So do you know what happened to him?  How did he -- how did he

21     get killed?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to explain

23     this.  It says:  "Fighting for the liberation of Lovas."

24             Those were not combatants.  Those were civilians and I want to

25     correct that.  As for this Djordjevic who got killed in Lovas, this was

Page 2000

 1     the matter.  The first of our natives who got out of Lovas was killed on

 2     the way to Opatovac, that's the side from which paramilitaries came.

 3     That man was hit by a bullet but he wasn't killed.  He was still alive

 4     when this Djordjevic man approached him and shot him dead with a pistol

 5     while he was lying wounded.

 6             That's the explanation about this Djordjevic.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But this document says that this -- this

 8     Djordjevic himself got killed.  Perhaps you don't know about it.  Then

 9     just say so.

10             Do you know that this man, Djordjevic, was killed?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that one of the

12     paramilitaries got killed just after sunrise.  But the explanation we

13     heard was that he approached the wounded man, who, while wounded, managed

14     to kill him by shooting his pistol.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

16             Just one moment.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  Picking up on the

18     question from the President, we are still on the day of the

19     10th of October.  You said on that day, if I understood you correctly,

20     that the attack on Lovas began with an artillery attack, followed by fire

21     from tanks and mortars.

22             Tell me, while this attack was underway with artillery, tanks and

23     mortars, was there any response from the other side?  Was it an exchange

24     of fire?  Or was it just the JNA that fired at the village without any

25     firing in response?

Page 2001

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no return fire.

 2     That's why I underlined there was no fighting for the liberation of

 3     Lovas.  There was just an attack on Lovas and no response from our side.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             If we could have 65 ter 418 - this is tab 16 - on the screen.

 8        Q.   This document is dated 28 September 1991.  Do you recognise this

 9     document?

10        A.   I see the document.  I have not seen it before.  But I saw

11     similar writing in both Lovas and Ilok.

12        Q.   Well, this document pertains to Bapska.  During this time when

13     you were in Ilok, were you presented with any documents from Bapska?

14        A.   I don't remember seeing any documents from Bapska, but I saw a

15     similar document, also handwritten, about the surrendering of weapons.

16     Lovas was given that demand verbally.

17        Q.   And when you say you think you saw a similar document, was that

18     document related to Bapska or some other village?

19        A.   Ilok.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could have 65 ter 365 on the screen.  This is

22     tab 5.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This document is not tendered, Mr. Olmsted, the

24     one on the screen -- still on the screen now.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, I would like to tender it.  Let me ask him

Page 2002

 1     one more question.  Maybe we can have at least some foundation on it.

 2     Since he doesn't, at this time, recognise this one, per se.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see.  Please do.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:

 5        Q.   It mentions in the first paragraph that ZNG, Croatian MUP, and

 6     armed civilians in Bapska were in the area.  To your knowledge, did

 7     Bapska have any Croat armed forces at that time?

 8        A.   As far as I know, no.  There were just civilians and civilian

 9     guards in our place.

10        Q.   Now, you've mentioned that you were issued with an ultimatum or

11     demands in Lovas and I think you mentioned other places.  What happened

12     in Bapska?  Were they also issued with an ultimatum?

13        A.   Well, yes.  The pattern of behaviour was the same.  First, there

14     were obligations and ultimatums given that could not be met, and that was

15     a pretext for the JNA and/or paramilitaries to attack that place.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be tendered at this time.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object to admitting of this document

18     because there is no nexus between the witness statement and this

19     document.  The witness said that he hasn't seen this document, and he

20     doesn't know the elements contained in this document.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted, when I asked you whether you wanted

22     to tender this, I didn't mean that as a trap.  But, indeed, in -- in --

23     at first sight, there seems to be a nexus problem.  You were asking for

24     another document before I -- I -- I asked you whether you would tender

25     this one.  Is that a similar one, the one you wanted to have on the

Page 2003

 1     screen after this one?

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  No, Your Honours.  It's something completely

 3     different.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Completely different.  And what is your response

 5     to the objection?

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, I assume that the Defence is not taking the

 7     position that every document shown a witness, the witness must have seen

 8     that document at a particular time, as they've certainly shown a number

 9     of documents to witnesses that they've never seen.

10             Our position is this witness was aware there was an ultimatum.

11     He was aware of the situation.  As far as armed Croats in Bapska, he was

12     speaking to people from Bapska in Ilok, and so this gives enough of a

13     nexus for it to be admitted.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection -- the objection is overruled;

16     Judge Mindua dissenting.

17             So the document may be admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P316.  Thank

19     you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 365 on the screen.  This is

22     tab 5.

23        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, this is an order issued by the command of the JNA

24     1st Infantry Mechanised Guards Division, dated 4 October 1991.

25             If we could just go to the last page.

Page 2004

 1             We can see that these orders are issued by Major-General

 2     Dragoljub Arandjelovac.  Now, I don't want you to go into any details

 3     right now, but did you meet this General in 1991?

 4        A.   I did.  On the 11th, in Sid.

 5        Q.   And was that the 11th of October?

 6        A.   Yes, the 11th of October.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  If we can go to page 1 of the original; page 2 of

 8     the English version.

 9        Q.   Now, if we look under item number 4 of this order, the General

10     orders the 2nd Infantry Motorised Guards Brigade to take control of the

11     villages of Bapska and Sarengrad by engaging one armoured battalion, a

12     122-millimetre Howitzer battalion and anti-aircraft defence, light

13     self-propelled artillery rocket battalion in co-ordination with the

14     Territorial Defence special forces.

15             Can you tell us, how does this type of artillery listed here

16     compare to that which was used on Lovas in early October?

17        A.   I believe that an identical artillery force attacked Lovas and

18     the neighbouring villages as well.

19        Q.   And it mentions Territorial Defence special forces.  Can you give

20     us any insights into what kind of forces those were?

21        A.   Those were the forces that I referred to as paramilitaries.  They

22     called them territorials and we called them paramilitaries.  They were

23     supposed to be linked to the JNA.  They said that they were not, but I

24     think that they were.  I'm sure that they were linked to the JNA.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence.

Page 2005

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall assigned Exhibit Number P317.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:

 5        Q.   I now want to move onto this meeting that you attended on the

 6     11th of October with the JNA.

 7             Can you tell us, who from Ilok attended that meeting with you?

 8        A.   Well, we were headed by a JNA officer, Grahovac.  There was

 9     myself, Katica Coric, Stjepan Kraljevic, Mayor Mrsic, Boro Magovac, there

10     must have been somebody else, but this is all I can remember.

11        Q.   And where in Sid did this meeting take place?

12        A.   In Sid, in the school near the park, in the centre of Sid.

13        Q.   Was that the same school that you attended meetings with the JNA

14     over Lovas?

15        A.   No, no, no.  That was a different school.  The first one was

16     close to the fair-grounds, in the western part of Sid, whereas the latter

17     was in the centre of Sid, very close to the church.

18        Q.   Now, you mentioned that General Arandjelovac was present at that

19     meeting.  Who else from the JNA was present?

20        A.   There were some other officers and the JNA troops that escorted

21     us and kept guard in the very room where the meeting took place.

22        Q.   And at this meeting did General Arandjelovic make any demands on

23     the residents of Ilok?

24        A.   Yes.  Just like Petrovic told us, Arandjelovic told them that

25     they should hand over weapons, that they shouldn't open fire on the

Page 2006

 1     military because they were capable of razing Ilok to the ground within

 2     the scope of a couple of hours.

 3        Q.   And what did the General say would happen if Ilok refused to

 4     surrender its weapons?

 5        A.   As I've already told you, they threatened to attack Ilok and

 6     level it with the ground.

 7        Q.   And how did the Croat delegation -- delegation from Ilok respond

 8     to this threat?

 9        A.   I believe that the mayor of Ilok, Mrsic, said that there were

10     some 12.000 people in Ilok, including a lot of women and children, and

11     that if something like that should happen, it would result in a major

12     massacre for which, sooner or later, somebody would be held responsible.

13     To which the General responded, I am a soldier, and all -- all I do is

14     carry out my military tasks.

15        Q.   Did you ask the General anything about Lovas?

16        A.   At the end of that meeting, I asked him about Lovas.  I told him,

17     General, sir, and he said, No, I'm not a sir, I'm a comrade.  I told him

18     Lovas had been attacked the day before, 21 people were killed, and some

19     20 people -- houses were set on fire.  And he said, The military didn't

20     do that.  And I said how -- what do you mean?  I saw them wearing

21     military uniforms, and at the end of the day, paramilitary units did not

22     have that kind of artillery weapons.  And then he said that we had killed

23     a member of the Territorial Defence.  I suppose he meant Djordjevic, and

24     then I said -- or, rather, he said that a member of the Territorial

25     Defence was killed in the field, and then I told him that

Page 2007

 1     Zelimir Petrovic knew very well, because we had agreed to that, that

 2     whatever might have happened outside of the village, in the field, that

 3     we shouldn't be held responsible for that.

 4        Q.   And --

 5        A.   And then he called the meeting off abruptly and said, We're done.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's look at 65 ter 403.  This is tab 11.  This is

 7     agreement dated 11 October 1991.

 8        Q.   Sir, are you familiar with this agreement?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it because I attended that meeting.

10        Q.   And who drafted this agreement?

11        A.   The agreement was drafted by JNA representatives.

12        Q.   And I take it from your earlier answer that the JNA presented you

13     with this agreement at that meeting in Sid?

14        A.   Not to me personally, but they showed it to the representatives

15     of Ilok who then, in their turn, showed it to me later.

16        Q.   Now, in -- item 1 mentions paramilitary organisations.  Were

17     there any such organisations in Ilok at the time?

18        A.   In Ilok?  On the Croatian side?  No.

19        Q.   Were there any Croat armed forces in Ilok?

20        A.   The Croatian police was in Ilok because there was a Croatian --

21     there was a police station in -- in Ilok.

22        Q.   Was there a local TO as well?

23        A.   There was a Crisis Staff in Ilok and there were also people who

24     were on the guard detail, just like in Lovas.

25        Q.   What kind of weapons were in Ilok?

Page 2008

 1        A.   In Ilok, people mostly had hunting rifles, and there were a few

 2     Kalashnikovs, or automatic rifles.  The Ilok police had them.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  I see the time, Mr. President.  I'm not quite done

 4     with this document, but maybe we should break.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Rendulic, we take the second break.  Come

 6     back at 12.45.  You will be escorted out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, I'd like to return to this document that we were

16     talking about before the break.

17             And if you could look under item number 6, it states that:

18             "A JNA unit will occupy the town and establish a town command,

19     thus securing peace until the situation becomes stable."

20             Given about what you knew about the situation in Ilok at the

21     time, was it necessary for the JNA to come in to establish peace and

22     stability in Ilok?

23        A.   There was no need for that.  It was peaceful and stable.  Nobody

24     had to establish anything.  Nobody had to come and do that.

25        Q.   At this stage, after this meeting with the JNA in Sid, what level

Page 2009

 1     of trust did the Ilok delegation have that the JNA would comply with this

 2     agreement or any other agreement?

 3        A.   Well, there was very little trust that things would be honoured,

 4     given what had happened in Tovarnik, Bapska.  It was a signal that

 5     similar things would happen in Ilok as well.

 6        Q.   And how was it decided whether or not to sign this agreement?

 7        A.   It was agreed that a referendum should be organised to enable the

 8     citizens to express their will as to how things should be done.

 9        Q.   And do you recall what date that referendum took place?

10        A.   I believe that that was on the 13th of October.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, may this be admitted into evidence?

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P318.  Thank

14     you.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have up 65 ter 404.  This is tab 12.

16        Q.   What we have in front of us is a voting slip.  Do you recognise

17     what this is?

18        A.   Yes, I recognise this slip.

19        Q.   And what is it?

20        A.   This is about collectively moving away due to the crisis

21     situation, whether we are in favour or against, and whether we were in

22     favour of handing over all weapons and signing an agreement with the JNA.

23        Q.   So were these the two questions that were put to the Ilok

24     population?

25        A.   Yes, this concerns Ilok.

Page 2010

 1        Q.   And we see that the alternative to signing the agreement with the

 2     JNA to surrender weapons was to move out of Ilok.

 3             Other than these two options, were any other options discussed?

 4        A.   It was either/or.  Either to stay, or to leave.

 5        Q.   But there was no third option?

 6        A.   No.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall assigned Exhibit Number 319.  Thank you.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 413 on the screen.  This is

11     tab 14.

12        Q.   This is a report on the 13 October referendum.  And we see on

13     page 1 that the Ilok population voted against turning in their weapons.

14             And if we turn to page 2, we see that they also voted to move out

15     of Ilok.

16             Does this accurately reflect the outcome of that referendum?

17        A.   The result reflected here is correct.

18        Q.   What did you and the other Croats in Ilok believe would happen in

19     you remained in Ilok and did not move out?

20        A.   Well, based on the previous developments in Lovas, Bapska, and

21     Tovarnik, when paramilitary units entered those villages and terrorised

22     the population and even killed people, those of us who were in Ilok,

23     including the citizens of Ilok, and those of us who found shelter in

24     Ilok, decided that the best thing for us would be to leave.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

Page 2011

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P320.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:

 5        Q.   After this referendum, did a part of the Ilok population leave

 6     the region?

 7        A.   Yes.  A majority.  Almost all refugees and a lot of the Ilok

 8     population left the area on the 17th of October.

 9        Q.   And what about you?

10        A.   Me too.

11        Q.   And where did you all go?

12        A.   We formed a column.  We left around 10.00.  The column was

13     several kilometres long.  We went along the bridge in Backa Palanka --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the names of all the

15     places, once again, slowly.

16             MR. OLMSTED:

17        Q.   I'm sorry.  If could you repeat the names of the places, the

18     villages that you mentioned.  The translators did not get them.

19        A.   Very well.  We set out from Ilok at 10.00.  In front of the

20     bridge near Backa Palanka we were controlled by the JNA.  We proceeded

21     towards Sid.  From Sid, we went to Adasevci, and from Adasevci we went to

22     the Zagreb-Belgrade highway.  And then in the village of Lipovac, we

23     crossed over to the territory of Croatia.

24        Q.   And what were you allowed to bring with you, you and the other

25     refugees allowed to bring with you, or able to bring with you, when you

Page 2012

 1     left Ilok?

 2        A.   We were allowed to bring our personal belongings, or those who

 3     had vehicles could drive their own vehicles away, and they could load

 4     those vehicles with their personal belongings.

 5        Q.   Given the situation, how much personal belongings was an average

 6     person able to bring?

 7        A.   What you could fit into nylon shopping bags.  Some clothes, some

 8     footwear.  That's what we all had.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could have 65 ter 2214 on the screen.  This

10     is tab 20.

11             These are excerpts from a book of minutes of the Ilok Municipal

12     Assembly from 1991.  If we could turn to page 3 in the original; page 5

13     of the English.

14             And what we have in front of us are minutes from a meeting held

15     on 11 October 1991 of the Expanded Session of the Ilok Assembly.  And in

16     it, we see that they discussed an earlier meeting with General

17     Arandjelovic.

18        Q.   Now you've had a chance to look at these minutes during proofing.

19     Can you confirm, the information contained here about the meeting that

20     you attended on 11 October in Sid, is this information consistent with

21     what was discussed at that meeting in Sid?

22        A.   Yes.  This is what we discussed and agreed on.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Now, if we could go to page 4 of the original;

24     page 6 of the English.

25        Q.   And this is a portion of minutes from a 12 October meeting of the

Page 2013

 1     Ilok Assembly and the minutes reflect that someone by the name of

 2     Salihovic said that it was "out of the question for anyone to leave Ilok

 3     with weapons."

 4             It says:

 5             "The General said this explicitly yesterday.  What's more, he

 6     said if anyone or anybody was to shoot from the column, they will target

 7     the column."

 8             Who was Salihovic?

 9        A.   Salihovic was a local, a local and a member of the municipal

10     assembly of the town of Ilok.

11        Q.   And do you recall whether General Arandjelovic issued this

12     warning at the 11 October meeting in Sid?

13        A.   He said that if anything happened, if anybody opened fire on the

14     military at any point in time, if fire came from the column, the military

15     would retaliate.

16        Q.   And just to clarify, what is meant by "column" here?  Column of

17     what?

18        A.   The column of refugees who left Ilok and proceeded towards Sid

19     and then further on.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could turn to page 5 of the original; page 7

21     of the English.

22        Q.   And we see these are minutes from a 12 October 1991 assembly

23     meeting in Ilok.  And we see that D. Bosnjak noted that Rendulic from

24     Lovas passed on a message that there were -- are around 1.000 persons for

25     the moving out.

Page 2014

 1             Which Rendulic is he referring to?

 2        A.   Me.  I said that all the refugees from Lovas who were at that

 3     point in time in Ilok wanted to leave.

 4        Q.   And just to clarify, the thousand persons that are referenced

 5     here, those are citizens of Lovas who came to Ilok?

 6        A.   Yes.  Mainly the residents of Lovas who came to Ilok and wanted

 7     to get out of Ilok.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I would object to -- to it because there is

11     no complete minutes from these meetings but just extracts prepared by

12     Stjepan Kraljevic and some other person.  I think that it should be

13     provided -- that whole -- the entire minutes from these meetings should

14     be provided.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do they exist, the entire minutes?

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't know.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, this is what we have.  Of course, if

18     we had the entire minutes, we would certainly not only have disclosed

19     them to Defence but we would probably be using them here today.  They are

20     what they are.  They are extracts.  The Trial Chamber is aware that

21     they're extracts, and the witness was able to speak to a number of

22     entries in it.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection overruled.

24             Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P321.  Thank

Page 2015

 1     you.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  I now would like to play a video for you.  This is

 3     65 ter 4874.1.  We'll bring it up on Sanction and we have a transcript

 4     for it.  So we'll let that play.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Can we pause it.  I don't hear a translation.  At

 7     least the English.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "[Voiceover]:  Anchor:  We are moving to Slovenia and

10     Western Srem.

11             "Reporter:  After the press conference, dear viewers, which was

12     held in Erdut today, we asked Goran Hadzic, president of the Serb region

13     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, to answer some questions for the

14     viewers of Television Belgrade.  Mr. Hadzic, to what extent is the

15     fighting going on in this theatre of war, serious and fierce?  What are

16     the prospects?

17             "Goran Hadzic:  The fighting is intense.  This first operation,

18     the first part, meaning the liberation of Western Srem, is in its final

19     stage.  As I said, fighting for Vukovar is ongoing.  We can say that our

20     units control nearly 50 per cent of the city.  We have secure positions

21     and are advancing house by house.  The action of mopping up Ustasha

22     villages was also carried out in the last two days.  Following the

23     mopping up of Sid-Vinkovci section, a couple of Ustasha villages in this

24     section of the central part of our region were mopped up three days ago.

25     Bogdanovci and the villages over there.  Some villages are surrendering.

Page 2016

 1     In Ilok, specifically, one wing offers to surrender, while the other

 2     extreme wing will not let them.  I will have talks regarding this today

 3     so they can surrender their weapons and perpetrators can be held

 4     responsible before the law, whereas the innocent can stay and live with

 5     us.

 6             "Reporter:  Is the territorial army, the defenders of the

 7     villages, the Yugoslav People's Army, going to launch a stronger

 8     offensive because, as you are aware, there is talk about a great number

 9     of complaints with regard to intensive war operations, especially by the

10     JNA?

11             "Goran Hadzic:  Well, yes, there are complaints.  They are

12     relatively justified, I would say, given the attitude and the

13     possibilities.  Our goal is not the mass killing of Croats but punishing

14     individuals in their midst.  This means we have tried everything through

15     democratic and other peaceful means to prevent this.  However, even after

16     the signing of the truce, agreements, and negotiations, the Ustasha

17     continue disregarding what they signed.  It means that everyone with

18     this -- I mean, I don't trust them at all.  This is clear to me.  There

19     can be no negotiating with them and the situation has to be resolved

20     militarily.  The communique of the Supreme Command speaks to this effect,

21     but we have to be aware that the army cannot carry this out without the

22     people.  So we will have to have some co-ordinated action, real

23     co-ordinated action between the people and the army.

24             "Ratko Jerman, a volunteer for Donji Radici village, was killed.

25     We are moving to Slavonia and Western Srem ..."

Page 2017

 1             MR. OLMSTED:

 2        Q.   Sir, can you identify the man wearing the camouflage uniform in

 3     this interview?

 4        A.   Yes, I recognise him.  That's Goran Hadzic.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise the building he is standing in front of?

 6        A.   I recognise the building.  That's a building in Erdut, near the

 7     winery.

 8        Q.   And in this interview, Mr. Hadzic states that:

 9             "The action of mopping up Ustasha villages was also carried out

10     in the last two days.  Following the mopping up of Sid-Vinkovci section,

11     a couple of Ustasha villages in the section of the central part of our

12     region were mopped up three days ago."

13             What region is he referring to?

14        A.   He is talking about the area that includes these villages that

15     had been occupied by the JNA and the paramilitaries, Lovas, Bapska, and

16     further on, and from these villages, Croats were mainly driven out.

17        Q.   He mentions that:

18             "In Ilok, one wing offers to surrender while the other extreme

19     wing will not allow it."

20             Were there two wings, or factions in Ilok on this issue?

21        A.   I believe there were no two factions.  You could see from the

22     referendum that most of the population was in favour of moving out.

23     There were really no two opposing factions.  There was nobody who was

24     preventing people, trying to stop them from leaving.

25        Q.   Was there any faction that was in favour of armed conflict or of

Page 2018

 1     entering armed resistance against the JNA?

 2        A.   No way.  We knew much in advance, looking at the forces that

 3     occupied Ilok, that we did not stand a chance.  Nobody had enough

 4     strength to oppose the JNA and the paramilitaries.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hadzic then states:

 6             "I will have talks regarding this issue," referring to Ilok,

 7     "today, so they can surrender their weapons and perpetrators can be held

 8     responsible before the law ..."

 9             What perpetrators is he referring to there, if you know?

10        A.   I have no idea whom he had talked to, whether he talked to

11     anyone.  But there were no forces there, there was no need to talk to

12     anyone about their moving out.  I think it was posturing.  They needed to

13     paint this false picture, that those were Ustasha villages, and that they

14     needed to drive out the Croats because they were Ustashas.

15        Q.   Did you, while you were in Ilok or leaving Ilok, did you learn

16     about the presence of any members of the Croat/Serb leadership who were

17     in the area during these events?

18        A.   No.  No.

19        Q.   What about -- what about on the bridge leading out of Ilok on the

20     day of the evacuation?

21        A.   At the exit, there were JNA troops, and I was told there was a --

22     the mayor of Vukovar, Slavko Dokmanovic, but I didn't see him myself.

23     Other people told me, How could you fail to see Slavko?  And in fact, I

24     knew Slavko from before but I did not recognise him.  There were too many

25     people in uniform.  Whereas other people did see him.

Page 2019

 1        Q.   And when you say other people saw him, what other people saw him?

 2        A.   People from Ilok who knew him well.  He occupied a prominent

 3     position once in our municipality.  He was the agricultural inspector and

 4     later he was president of the municipality.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this video-clip be admitted into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Should be assigned Exhibit Number P322.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  And finally, I want to call up on the screen

12     65 ter 5085.  This is tab 32.  And if we could not broadcast this one as

13     it is subject to protective measures.

14        Q.   Sir, while this is coming up on the screen, if you could just

15     answer this question I have.  You told us, Mr. Rendulic, about the events

16     in Sotin, Tovarnik, Lovas, Bapska, and Ilok.  Did you observe any

17     patterns in the way that events unfolded in all of these villages?

18        A.   Well, I said a moment ago and earlier in my evidence that I

19     believe it was all the same pattern, the same scenario.  To put pressure

20     on these Croatian villages, to so panic with an initial artillery attack,

21     and then allow the paramilitaries to enter these villages, to go on a

22     rampage, to burn houses, kill people, instilling even more fear.  And the

23     pressure from the JNA and the paramilitaries was intentionally so strong

24     with one objective only:  That Croats leave those villages.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  And if we could turn to page 3 of the English

Page 2020

 1     version of this document; page 5 of the translation.

 2        Q.   And we see under Roman numeral II there are conclusions in this

 3     report about a JNA scenario, how it often evolved along the following

 4     lines.  And then it gives six points, sub-points, the first being tension

 5     and confusion and fear is built up.  Secondly, there's artillery or

 6     mortar shelling.  Third, there's an ultimatum by the JNA regarding the

 7     collection of weapons.  And, fourth, without waiting for the results of

 8     the results of ultimatum there is a military attack.  Fifth, at the same

 9     time, or shortly thereafter the attack, Chetniks enter the village and

10     finish the job.

11             Is this description provided in this report consistent with what

12     you observed?

13        A.   Yes.  It is almost 100 per cent consistent.

14        Q.   Under item 5 it states that the Chetniks enter the village to

15     finish the job.  Did you arrive at any conclusions why the JNA did not

16     itself go in as an infantry into these villages after the artillery

17     attack?  Why did they send in paramilitaries?

18        A.   The JNA was supposed to play a milder role, to keep a low

19     profile, to refrain from directly participating in the expulsions and

20     attacks on those villages, to protect its own image.  However, they were

21     in cahoots with paramilitary units to provide artillery support first and

22     launch the initial attack because, of course, the paramilitaries did not

23     have artillery, and then after the artillery attacks, the paramilitaries,

24     Chetniks, and Seselj's Men and others would be allowed to go in to go on

25     a rampage, to create havoc, and kill and burn.  And that's how the panic

Page 2021

 1     was sowed and people were intimidated and made to flee.

 2        Q.   Under item 6 of the report it mentions that:

 3             "Ilok was not destroyed; as in this stage, it represents an asset

 4     with a fundamental value."

 5             Could you tell us, what would the fundamental value of an

 6     undestroyed Ilok have been for the JNA or the Serb forces?

 7        A.   I think that the JNA, the Serb forces, needed one town to remain

 8     standing.  Vukovar was destroyed.  There were too many destroyed cities

 9     and towns already, and if they destroyed everything, they would be simply

10     left without any accommodation.  That's one reason.

11             And, second, Ilok is on the juncture between Vukovar and

12     Backa Palanka one way and another way towards Sid.  So they needed one

13     town to remain standing but vacated.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could just turn quickly to page 12 of the

15     English; page 14 of the translation.

16        Q.   And we can see this is an account of the attack on Lovas given by

17     refugees to this international organisation.

18             And it mentions in it, 15 machine-guns were collected in response

19     to the JNA's demands.

20             Were there any machine-guns in Lovas?

21        A.   No, there were no machine-guns whatsoever.  All there was, was

22     light weaponry.  Machine-guns are infantry weapons, as I understand.

23        Q.   And I think had you an opportunity to look at this report.  Other

24     than that, is the rest of the information provided by these refugees

25     generally consistent with events in Lovas?


Page 2022

 1        A.   Just a moment.  Let me look at this.

 2             Yes, that's mainly true.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted under seal.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P323,

 6     admitted under seal.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, that concludes my direct examination.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Zivanovic, cross-examination?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Mr. President.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Rendulic.  My name is

14     Zoran Zivanovic.  I represent Mr. Goran Hadzic in these proceedings.

15        A.   Good afternoon.

16        Q.   Mr. Rendulic, first of all, I want to make a correction to

17     certain errors in the record.  One of them is on page 33, where you

18     discussed the attack on Tovarnik by the JNA.  And, as far as I heard you,

19     you said that, among other things, both churches were hit.  You meant the

20     Orthodox church and the Catholic church.

21        A.   That's what I said.

22        Q.   Because only the Catholic church is on the record.  It must be a

23     mistake.  Because truth to be told, you spoke very fast.

24             The other thing is on page 34.  It concerns your conversation

25     with Major Radisavkic.  I think at one point he told you, complaining

Page 2023

 1     about the general devastation and destruction, he said, Why is Europe

 2     silent?  Why don't they do something?

 3             Did he say that?

 4        A.   Yes, he did say that.

 5        Q.   You've told us before that for many years you had worked at the

 6     co-operative in Lovas before the war, and the last five years before the

 7     war started, you were the director, the general manager of that

 8     co-operative.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   That co-operative must have wielded great influence in a small

11     place like Lovas.  It must have been very important.

12        A.   To its economy, of course.

13        Q.   You were on good terms with all the residents of Lovas, weren't

14     you, regardless of ethnicity.

15        A.   Absolutely with everyone.

16        Q.   And you said that, up to 1991, you were a member of the League of

17     Communists.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   There were many other members of the same League of Communists in

20     Lovas at the time, I suppose.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell me about your reasons for leaving the League of

23     Communists in 1991.  Was it of your own free will or not?

24        A.   You see, at that time in 1991, the activity of the League of

25     Communists was petering out.  It all moved to the SDP, the

Page 2024

 1     Social Democrat Party.  There was no League of Communists anymore, for

 2     all practical purposes.  So I decided to simply quit.  I did not make any

 3     grand moves to quit.  I just stopped being involved.  There was no

 4     activity anymore.

 5        Q.   You did not see the SDP as some sort of successor to the policy

 6     of the League of Communists.

 7        A.   I did not want to join the SDP or the HDZ.  I simply wanted to

 8     get out of politics altogether.

 9        Q.   Since you mentioned the HDZ, you must know that it was founded as

10     a political party in 1989.

11        A.   I know that.

12        Q.   Can you tell us what kind of influence that party had in Lovas.

13        A.   It did have influence, mainly in achieving independence for the

14     Republic of Croatia.

15        Q.   Did it have many sympathisers in Lovas?

16        A.   Yes, quite a few.

17        Q.   When you say there were many HDZ followers in Lovas, my

18     information and my understanding is that everyone there was Croat.

19        A.   Yes, for the most part.

20        Q.   Since you were aware of the circumstances in Lovas, you knew that

21     place well, did you ever wonder why the Serbs were not joining the HDZ?

22     Was it prohibited or did they just not want to?

23        A.   It was not prohibited.  I often talked to them about it.  What

24     they minded is that the HDZ advocated Croatia's independence and

25     secession from Yugoslavia.

Page 2025

 1        Q.   Were you able to understand why it mattered to them so much, the

 2     people to whom you talked?  Why did it matter to them whether they were

 3     going to live in Yugoslavia or independent Croatia?

 4        A.   I don't know the real reasons.  All I know is that they withdrew

 5     at a certain point completely.  Even the Serbs who were in the highest

 6     bodies of administration at the co-operative, they just quit.  They

 7     stopped coming to meetings.  When I asked why, they pleaded illness or

 8     other reasons.  They excluded themselves from all the developments, at

 9     the co-operative and in the village itself.

10        Q.   When approximately did you notice that?

11        A.   Practically the moment when the HDZ came into power and when the

12     Croatian state was established.  That caused widespread discontent among

13     them.  But in Lovas specifically, they had absolutely no reason to fear.

14        Q.   You say when the HDZ came into power.  That means just after the

15     elections.

16        A.   Yes, when the HDZ won the elections.

17        Q.   And I suppose that they won by a majority in Lovas as well.

18        A.   Yes, they did.

19        Q.   Did you have the impression that the Serbs who lived in Lovas at

20     that time were fearful that Croatia would secede, that Yugoslavia would

21     be no more?

22        A.   In my view, there was no reason for them to fear that, but some

23     of them did say it in so many words.  They said they wanted to go on

24     living in Yugoslavia.  It would make them feel better.  Old and young

25     said the same.  I was not surprised to hear it from older people, but I

Page 2026

 1     was surprised to hear it from the younger people.  It showed to me that

 2     they had been indoctrinated against an independent Croatian state.

 3        Q.   You say you were not surprised to hear it from older people.  To

 4     hear what?

 5        A.   You know the stories from the Second World War.  Older people

 6     knew about the Second World War, and what happened and what the situation

 7     was then, but younger people did not know these things.

 8        Q.   When you know that older people knew that, you mean they were

 9     contemporaries.  They knew first-hand about the crimes committed in the

10     Second World War by Ustashas against the Serbs.

11        A.   There were other crimes.  There were crimes by Chetniks and

12     partisans against those who were not partisans.

13        Q.   Could you explain a little?  Were the older Serb people afraid

14     that Ustasha crimes would be repeated or other crimes, such as partisan

15     crimes?

16        A.   I don't know.  Maybe they were thinking that something like that

17     might happen again when the Ustashas come into power.  Maybe that's what

18     they said to themselves.

19        Q.   Why did you not expect the younger people to know that?  They

20     must have heard it from their parents, their fathers.

21        A.   Because I believe that younger people were brought up in a

22     different spirit, in a different culture, with a different world view.

23        Q.   They were brought up also in a Yugoslav spirit, you will admit.

24        A.   Yes.  But they were taught different things at school.  They were

25     supposed to look at life and the world with different eyes.

Page 2027

 1        Q.   You made a distinction a moment ago - that's on page 8 of today's

 2     LiveNote - you said that the majority of the Serb population in Lovas

 3     were people who were resettled from Banja and Kordun after the

 4     Second World War.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   In your view, did it have any influence on their attitude?

 7        A.   I don't think why it should have.

 8        Q.   Do you know, Banja and Kordun were part of the independent state

 9     of Croatia in World War II, you will agree?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   There were concentration camps nearby, such as Jasenovac?

12        A.   We all know that.  We learnt our history.

13        Q.   We have had occasion to hear in this courtroom that there was not

14     a single Serb family in Croatia that did not have close family perish in

15     those camps.

16        A.   I cannot talk about that.  I don't know whether every Serb family

17     had lost people.  Everybody lost something.  My father told me how the

18     Croats faired at Kordun.

19        Q.   Do you know that a committee of the Croatian Democratic Union was

20     founded in Lovas in March 1991?

21        A.   Yes, I know that, but I don't know when exactly.  I was not a

22     member, so I don't know.

23        Q.   Do you know who members were?

24        A.   Yes.  The -- Lovas is not a big place.

25        Q.   Can you tell us who the members of the Executive Committee of the

Page 2028

 1     HDZ in Lovas were?

 2        A.   I know that Jozo Milas was the president of the HDZ board.  I

 3     know that Mujic was a member.  His first name was either Ivan or Franjo.

 4     I don't know.  At that time I did not know much about the policies of the

 5     HDZ or its Executive Board.  I didn't get involved much.

 6        Q.   Who was elected as the president of the municipal assembly in

 7     Lovas after the HDZ victory?

 8        A.   Up to then it was a Croat, Jakob Poljak.  I can't remember who

 9     was elected as president.  I know that it was Jakob Poljak before that,

10     and thereafter, I really ... the municipal assembly, is that what you're

11     asking me?  The assembly of the local commune?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   It was Jakob Poljak before that, and after that, I don't know who

14     was appointed.

15        Q.   Let me try and jog your memory.  Does Zeljko Cirba's name ring a

16     bell?

17        A.   Of course, it does.  He was employed in my company.  I really

18     don't know that he was appointed as the president of the local commune.

19     I really don't know.

20        Q.   We have heard that in the second half of April 1990, the HDZ

21     started setting up a military organisation.  Do you know anything about

22     that?

23        A.   I don't know anything about that, but I don't think it did.  How

24     the HDZ could have formed a military organisation at that time?  Are you

25     referring to the Lovas HDZ?  I don't know anything about that, and I

Page 2029

 1     don't think so.

 2        Q.   You -- you know, however, that the president of the HDZ board in

 3     Lovas was Milas, right, Jozo Milas?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you know that the vice-presidents were Marin Vidic Bili and

 6     Josip Grcanac?

 7        A.   I know that they were HDZ members.  I don't know what their

 8     positions were.  I was not a member, as I've already told you, and I

 9     repeat it now.

10        Q.   Do you know that Josip Grcanac was the chief of the police

11     administration in Vinkovci for a while?

12        A.   Yes, after the war he was the chief of the police administration

13     in Vinkovci.  I know that.

14        Q.   And before the war?

15        A.   Before the war, he was in Vukovar.  But I don't know whether he

16     was chief there.  I know that he was a police employee in Vukovar, but I

17     don't know what his position was there.

18        Q.   Do you know that when it comes to the HDZ board in Lovas, Mijo

19     Kolic was a member?

20        A.   I know he was an HDZ member but I don't know whether he was a

21     member of the Executive Board.

22        Q.   What about Franjo Krizmanic?

23        A.   Yes.  He was a member as well.

24        Q.   Branko Krizmanic?

25        A.   I don't know that he was a member.  He is Franjo's son and it is

Page 2030

 1     possible that he was also an HDZ member.

 2        Q.   Josip Badanjak?

 3        A.   He was a member.  I don't know what his position was.  I haven't

 4     a clue.

 5        Q.   Josip Filic?

 6        A.   He was an HDZ member as well.

 7        Q.   And was his nickname Duka?

 8        A.   No.  Nobody was known by that nickname in Lovas.

 9        Q.   Ivo Madzarevic, what about him?

10        A.   He was an HDZ member as well.

11        Q.   Tomislav Rendulic?

12        A.   Yes.  Him as well.

13        Q.   Franjo Mujic?

14        A.   Him as well.  He was also an HDZ member.

15        Q.   Keser known as Braca?

16        A.   Keser, Braca.  I believe his first name was Mile and he was also

17     an HDZ member.

18        Q.   Do you know that, starting with 1990, people in Lovas started

19     arming themselves?

20        A.   In 1990?

21        Q.   Yes, in 1990.

22        A.   No.  I don't know about that.  I don't know that people started

23     getting armed in 1990.  If anything was happening on a large scale, I'm

24     sure I would have known that.

25        Q.   According to the information that I have - maybe you know

Page 2031

 1     something about that - that in 1990, on the border crossing with Hungary,

 2     certain people were arrested, Mile Jovanovic, Josip Mirkovic,

 3     Mustafa Mumin, due to the illegal import of weapons and their sale in

 4     Lovas?

 5        A.   I've heard stories but I don't know whether that really happened

 6     or not.  I just heard rumours.

 7        Q.   Do you know that training was organised for HDZ members from

 8     Vukovar municipality including Lovas?

 9        A.   No, that didn't happen in Lovas.  I'm sure of that.

10        Q.   And elsewhere?

11        A.   I don't know.  I wouldn't know that at all.

12        Q.   Do you know anything about the Federal Youth Work Campaign?

13        A.   Yes.  That's what happened at the Vupik farm.

14        Q.   Do you know that there was some sort of military training

15     organised there?

16        A.   Yes.  I know that the ZNG members were there, when they had

17     already become a legal Croatian military unit.

18        Q.   Do you know that they were trained there?

19        A.   They were there.  I don't know whether they were also trained

20     there, that there was some sort of training organised there.  I don't

21     know that.

22        Q.   According to the information that we have, the military

23     organisation of the HDZ, that started in the second half of 1990 -- or,

24     rather, in the second half of April 1990, when a decision to that effect

25     was taken.  That decision was taken at a meeting in the village of

Page 2032

 1     Bogdanovci.  Do you know anything about that?

 2        A.   No, I don't know anything about it.  I was not at all familiar

 3     with that village.  I hardly knew it.

 4        Q.   According to the information that we have, furthermore, it was

 5     decided to set up three services within that military organisation.  One

 6     would be a technical service; the second would be a military service; and

 7     the third would be a medical service.

 8        A.   Again, I don't know that.  I don't know whether that was decided

 9     there or not.

10        Q.   According to some other information that we have, people -- the

11     people who attended and represented Lovas at that meeting subsequently

12     implemented the decision that were taken at that meeting and organised

13     those same services in the village of Lovas.

14        A.   Again, I don't know that.  That may well have been the case.

15     However, at that time, no activities to that effect took place in Lovas.

16     Nothing that could be tied to any such services.

17        Q.   According to the same information that we have, the head of the

18     technical service in Lovas was Ivo Madzarevic.  And the task of the

19     technical service was to arm HDZ members.

20        A.   I don't know whether Ivo was in that position or not.  I only

21     know that there was no arming going on at that time.  Where would the

22     arms come from in the first place?  Nobody had weapons at that time.

23        Q.   Were some measures taken in order to obtain weapons?

24        A.   In 1990?  No.  Not in 1990.

25        Q.   And in 1991?

Page 2033

 1        A.   In 1991, when the situation surrounding Borovo Naselje escalated,

 2     we were thinking that we needed security and we could not get that

 3     security if we could not defend ourselves.

 4        Q.   How was that done, how were weapons obtained?

 5        A.   I know that individuals would go to Sid.  They would buy hunting

 6     rifles and pistols there, legally, against a licence.  I believe that the

 7     HDZ in 1991, after the May event, they received three or five

 8     Kalashnikovs from the police.  But the army gave that to the HDZ and the

 9     HDZ then was allowed to distribute those weapons.  But that was a

10     different time, and some unpleasant events had already started by then.

11     That was in May.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic --

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I would like to have a few minutes before 2.00 to

15     address a procedural matter.  So whenever you are about to change to

16     another topic ...

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I can interrupt here, Your Honour, if you --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  That will be good.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Rendulic --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- we'll end the hearing now.  You will come back

23     tomorrow morning.  Tomorrow morning the hearing starts at 8.45, not at

24     9.00, at 8.45, but you will be informed by the services.

25             I remind you that you are still under oath, which means that you


Page 2034

 1     are not allowed to discuss with anybody your testimony -- your testimony,

 2     and that implies also that you cannot speak to any of the parties.

 3             Do you understand?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The court usher will escort you out

 6     of the courtroom now.  Thank you very much.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, the issue I would like to raise is

10     your request to have additional time for the videolink witness on Friday.

11     It's 056, I think; is that right?  It's a -- it's a closed session

12     witness so we don't --

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, it is.  Yes, it is.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- so we don't use his name.  Okay.

15             Mr. Stringer, are you aware of that and have you a view on the

16     matter?  Because as it is a videolink witness, we should take a decision

17     in due course, so that's why I'm asking.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  In fact, we just -- I was

19     putting together some notes and we were going to propose that the

20     Prosecution could make its response orally in order to expedite the

21     Chamber's consideration.

22             We've taken a look at the Defence application.  The Prosecution

23     opposes it.  Certainly based on the record that we have before us at the

24     moment.  The witness is a crime-base witness, if I can put it that way.

25     There are two areas.  One relates to Klisa, which is paragraph 29 of the

Page 2035

 1     indictment.  The witness was also himself present and interrogated at the

 2     Erdut training centre.

 3             He -- the Prosecution will present his evidence pursuant to 92 --

 4     Rule 92 ter and we'll be doing a 30-minute direct examination at the most

 5     with the witness.  We think that on that basis, a doubling of the default

 6     time that would normally be available is not justified.  It may be that

 7     when we see how much time is left, because we are somewhat mindful of

 8     wanting to finish the videolink witnesses in particular this week before

 9     we go into the extended period of non-sitting.  It may be that if there's

10     time and if the Defence is -- is in a position to persuade the Chamber

11     that additional time is justified, perhaps it could be considered then at

12     that point.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to know, Mr. Stringer, the next witness,

14     which is GH-100, is that a videolink witness as well?  That's an

15     open-session witness, I see.

16             MR. STRINGER:  No.  The next witness is present in --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is in The Hague.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, do you want to --

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I understood that your question was related to

20     the witness -- Witness GH-100.  Not for the next --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.  Sorry.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your request.  We're talking about your request

24     which is --

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  056.

Page 2036

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- about 56.  And now my question was whether

 2     Witness 100 was also a videolink witness to which the answer is no.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.  I understood that he is -- I think he is

 4     videolink witness.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I don't have that information right

 7     in front of my eyes at the moment.  Actually, I might.  I'm just ...

 8             I'm sorry, GH-100 is indeed a videolink witness, Mr. President.

 9     I apologise.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  He is also a videolink witness.  Okay.

11             So, Mr. Zivanovic you wanted to --

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm in position to reduce my

13     time for GH-056 to one hour.  So the motion is moot.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the request is moot.

15             Okay.  Thank you.  That is settled, then.

16             We convene tomorrow at 8.45.  Please do not forget that we are

17     15 minutes early.

18             Thank you very much.  Court adjourned.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of

21                           December, 2012, at 8.45 a.m.