Page 2668
1 Tuesday, 22 January 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. May we have the appearances starting
11 with the Prosecution, please.
12 MS. DENNEHY: Good morning, Your Honours. Muireann Dennehy on
13 behalf of the Prosecution along with my colleague Matthew Olmsted,
14 Thomas Laugel, and our intern Matija Saftic.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Mr. Zivanovic.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
17 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, lead counsel. Thank you.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 The next ...
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: The next witness is 101?
22 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Before we do that, there is an exhibit issue.
24 Mr. Zivanovic, your Exhibit Number D5, you asked for -- to tender a new
25 translation.
Page 2669
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: And there was no objection from the OTP?
3 MR. OLMSTED: That's correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: So we will admit it. Thank you.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: And before we bring the witness in, I noticed
7 that we got three exhibit lists for this witness, three in a row, each
8 one updated in some way or another. Can I suggest to the OTP that when
9 we have such follow-up exhibit lists that you indicate on the list what
10 is new and what is left out, because if not, we're completely lost and we
11 have to check every -- every single document. And it would also be very
12 helpful for everybody if you could indicate, if that's the case, that
13 there are documents on the list that are not yet on your 65 ter list.
14 MS. DENNEHY: We will do, Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
16 The witness may be brought in. Closed session, please, to bring
17 the witness in.
18 [Closed session]
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2670
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
6 you.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: You have protective measures, ma'am, which means
8 in your case that we will not -- we will not call you by your name but by
9 your pseudonym, and you have face distortion as well.
10 I will ask you to read the solemn declaration. Before I do that,
11 I must tell you that -- that you expose yourself to the penalties of
12 perjury should you give untruthful or misleading information to the
13 Tribunal.
14 Can you please give the solemn declaration now.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
18 WITNESS: GH-101
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, your witness.
21 Examination by Ms. Dennehy:
22 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can I ask you whether you can hear me in
23 a language that you understand.
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, I realise that I forgot the
Page 2671
1 pseudonym sheet.
2 MS. DENNEHY: Yes. I was just to come to that.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's okay. Thank you.
4 MS. DENNEHY: May I ask that 65 ter 6381 be shown.
5 Q. Witness, do you see the document in front of you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Without reading anything out loud on at that document, can you
8 please affirm that the information on that document is correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. DENNEHY: Your Honours, may I ask that this document,
11 65 ter 6381, be admitted into evidence.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1001. Thank
14 you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MS. DENNEHY: And may I ask that that also be admitted under
17 seal, please.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Under seal, please.
19 MS. DENNEHY:
20 Q. Witness, could you please tell the Court where you live.
21 A. In Erdut.
22 Q. And how long have you lived --
23 A. In Croatia.
24 Q. And how long have you lived in Erdut?
25 A. Thirty years.
Page 2672
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 MS. DENNEHY: Your Honours, I appear to have a problem with my
4 translation. Do you mind if I speak to my Case Manager quickly. Thank
5 you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
7 [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]
8 MS. DENNEHY:
9 (redacted)
10 Why did you first move to Erdut?
11 A. I found a job there.
12 Q. And did -- did your husband move to Erdut with you at that time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And -- and why did he move to Erdut?
15 A. Also for work.
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2673
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3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, we are in open session. Do you
6 realise that?
7 MS. DENNEHY: Yes. If we could go into closed session, please,
8 Your Honour.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Closed session, please -- private session, yes,
10 of course.
11 [Private session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
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24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2674
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MS. DENNEHY:
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 Q. When did the ZNG move into the centre?
12 A. Sometime around the 28th of April, 1991.
13 Q. And why did the ZNG move into the centre in April 1991?
14 A. Because -- or, rather, in order to defend the territory of
15 Croatia.
16 Q. And why was it necessary that the ZNG move into the centre then?
17 Why was it necessary at that time to defend the territory of Croatia?
18 A. The local Serbs had erected barricades. There was an uprisal [as
19 interpreted].
20 Q. Can you describe where the barricades were erected?
21 A. In front of Borovo Selo.
22 Q. Were there barricades elsewhere around Erdut?
23 A. After that, on Bijelo Brdo.
24 Q. And how did you react to the barricades in Bijelo Brdo?
25 A. I found it very hard.
Page 2675
1 Q. Why did you find it very hard?
2 A. We could not communicate with Osijek. We could not go to Osijek
3 either.
4 Q. And what other effects of the tensions did you see or know about
5 at that time?
6 A. An armed rebellion started.
7 Q. And what did that mean for you in Erdut?
8 A. The beginning of war.
9 Q. What happened to your employment in July 1991?
10 A. I was fired.
11 Q. And -- and why were you fired?
12 A. Because of my ethnicity. I'm a Serb.
13 Q. Can you please describe to us what happened at the Vodovod plant
14 near Erdut at the end of July 1991.
15 A. It was shelled.
16 Q. Can you describe the shelling to the Court.
17 A. During the night, after 1.00 a.m., until 4.00 a.m.
18 Q. And what did you hear between 1.00 a.m. and 4.00 a.m.?
19 A. Terrible shelling, and there was a strong light, although it was
20 during the night.
21 Q. And who was causing the shelling?
22 A. The JNA.
23 Q. And where were they shelling from?
24 A. From Vojvodina in Serbia.
25 Q. Can you describe the damage that resulted as a cause of the
Page 2676
1 attack?
2 A. Seven houses were damaged in Erdut. They were shelled. And the
3 waterworks, the water plant, was destroyed.
4 Q. Where were you at the time of the attack?
5 A. In my own house.
6 Q. And how did you feel at the time that the attack was occurring?
7 A. Frightened.
8 Q. What military presence was there in Erdut following the attack on
9 the Vodovod?
10 A. Please repeat your question.
11 Q. What army was in Erdut after the attack on the Vodovod?
12 A. The ZNG.
13 Q. And was there any other army there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Prior to the attack on the Vodovod, did you see any JNA
16 representative in the village of Erdut?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell me about the time that you saw a JNA representative
19 in Erdut?
20 A. They arrived in a jeep. They reached the centre of the village
21 to inform the local commune representatives that the JNA troops on the
22 Danube should not be provoked. If there were provocations, they would
23 raze Erdut to the ground.
24 Q. You just told us that they arrived in a jeep. Who arrived in a
25 jeep?
Page 2677
1 A. A JNA officer.
2 Q. And why did he say that the JNA troops on the Danube should not
3 be provoked?
4 A. Because a soldier was hit from the Erdut tower. He was in a
5 patrol boat, and the bullet hit the helmet on his head.
6 Q. And when the JNA officer told you that if there were further
7 provocations they would raze Erdut to the ground, what do you take this
8 to mean?
9 A. That all of us in the village would die.
10 Q. And how did that make you feel?
11 A. Miserable and frightened.
12 Q. After the attack on the Vodovod, where did you go?
13 A. I went to Vojvodina, to Indjija.
14 Q. And why did you leave Erdut to go to Indjija?
15 A. For the safety of my children. I stayed with my cousin.
16 Q. When did you return to Erdut?
17 A. In the month of August.
18 Q. And in August when you returned, who had taken charge of the
19 village of Erdut?
20 A. The Territorial Defence, the local Territorial Defence.
21 Q. And when you arrived back in August to Erdut, how were Croats in
22 Erdut reacting to the attack on the Vodovod and the further attacks?
23 A. They were horrified.
24 Q. And where did they go?
25 A. They went across Aljmas to Osijek after the attack on Vodovod.
Page 2678
1 They didn't want to stay in the village. They went on a barge.
2 Q. And why did they not want to stay in the village?
3 A. They were afraid for their own safety. They wanted to save
4 themselves.
5 Q. And why were they afraid for their own safety? Who were they
6 afraid of?
7 A. They were afraid of the army and the local Serbs.
8 Q. And what army were they afraid of?
9 A. Paramilitary units.
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 Q. And was the work paid or was this a work obligation?
15 A. It was a work obligation.
16 Q. And what did you receive as payment for this work?
17 A. We did not get paid.
18 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that we move into private session,
19 please.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
21 [Private session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2679
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17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MS. DENNEHY:
24 Q. When you returned to work at the training centre, who did you
25 expect to arrive there?
Page 2680
1 A. The local Territorial Defence.
2 Q. And -- and did the local Territorial Defence arrive at the
3 centre?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And who else later arrived at the centre?
6 A. Arkan.
7 Q. And when did Arkan arrive at the centre?
8 A. 20th -- no, sorry, 26th September.
9 Q. And before the 26th of September when Arkan arrived, did anyone
10 else -- or was any other group present at the centre at the time?
11 A. Mr. Badza.
12 Q. And who was Badza?
13 A. State security of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. And what was his role at the centre? What did he do?
15 A. He was with his men, but I don't know what his role was.
16 Q. Was he in charge of those men? Was he in a position of
17 authority?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What did his men call him, do you recall?
20 A. Mr. Badza.
21 Q. And do you know Badza's full name?
22 A. Radovan Stojicic.
23 Q. And how often would you see Badza yourself at the centre?
24 A. During lunch, breakfast, and dinner.
25 Q. Now, moving on to when Arkan arrived, you said earlier that he
Page 2681
1 arrived on the 26th of September, 1991. What was the reaction of those
2 at the centre to Arkan's arrival?
3 A. Disapproval.
4 Q. And why did they disapprove of him being there?
5 A. Because he had been driven away by the locals of Tenja village.
6 Q. And what did he done in Tenja to be driven away?
7 A. He imposed his own command.
8 Q. Who accompanied Arkan when he arrived at the centre? Who else
9 did you see with him?
10 A. Twenty-five of his soldiers.
11 Q. And what was your impression of these men?
12 A. They were frightening.
13 Q. Why do you think -- or why were you frightened at the time, or
14 why did you consider them frightening?
15 A. They looked arrogant, Rambo-like soldiers.
16 Q. And where were these men from, these 25 soldiers who accompanied
17 Arkan?
18 A. From Serbia, and some from Croatian territories.
19 Q. And were these ordinary soldiers who accompanied Arkan to the
20 centre in September?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What rank do you think these soldiers held?
23 A. His helpers, officers.
24 Q. Can you describe for the Court when you first met Arkan?
25 A. I was intimidated.
Page 2682
1 Q. And when did you first meet him?
2 A. When he entered the kitchen and arrogantly introduced himself as
3 the commander of the Serb Volunteers Guard, and from now on we would be
4 working as he orders.
5 Q. And what did you understand the Serb Volunteer Guard to be?
6 A. The elite guard made up of Serbs.
7 Q. And what did Arkan say he intended to do at the camp?
8 A. To train elite units of the Serb Volunteers Guard.
9 Q. Can you describe the weapons and the military equipment that
10 Arkan's officers brought with them?
11 A. Modern.
12 Q. And what kind of modern equipment did they have?
13 A. Beginning with Skorpion pistols, machine-guns, modern
14 machine-guns, to all the other weapons that we had no occasion to see
15 before.
16 Q. And how did you react when you saw these weapons?
17 A. Frightened.
18 Q. And why were you frightened?
19 A. Because of the way they behaved.
20 Q. And how did they behave?
21 A. Arrogant and supercilious.
22 Q. And what kind of uniforms did Arkan's men wear?
23 A. First it was olive green-black uniforms and camouflage uniforms.
24 Q. And what kind of vehicles did they have at the camp, what kind of
25 vehicles?
Page 2683
1 A. Jeeps and armoured vans.
2 Q. And what registration plates did these vehicles have?
3 A. Belgrade licence plates.
4 Q. Now, you told us earlier that Arkan arrived with a number of
5 officers and that his intentions were to train the Serb Volunteer Guard
6 at the camp. Did the number of soldiers at the camp increase over time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And how many men were at the camp over time?
9 A. Over 200 men.
10 Q. And as the number of men increased at the camp, did additional
11 weaponry arrive?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where did this weaponry come from?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. And can you describe that weaponry for me?
16 A. Kalashnikovs.
17 Q. Was there anything else?
18 A. Launchers, RPGs, grenades.
19 Q. Now, moving on to your time in the kitchen at the camp, how did
20 the food at the camp differ after Arkan's arrival?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How did -- what types of food did you have after Arkan's arrival
23 at the camp?
24 A. Beef, chicken, and pork.
25 Q. And was the food different after Arkan had arrived at the camp
Page 2684
1 compared to before?
2 A. In the early days there was less of it, and later it was a richer
3 diet.
4 Q. And can you describe why -- or can you tell us why it was a
5 richer diet?
6 A. Because he brought food for his men.
7 Q. And what kind of food did Arkan bring for his men?
8 A. Juice, chocolate, steak, prosciutto, all sorts of cheese.
9 Q. And could you and other villagers in Erdut buy similar food at
10 the time?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And where did the food that you've described such as juice and
13 chocolate, where did that come from?
14 A. From Vojvodina.
15 Q. Where did Arkan get the money to purchase such food?
16 A. I don't know.
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 MS. DENNEHY: Your Honours, can I ask that we move into private
22 session, please, and can I also ask that the previous answer be redacted.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Private session, please.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 2685
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11 Pages 2685-2687 redacted. Private session.
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Page 2688
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8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
14 you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MS. DENNEHY:
17 Q. If I can repeat the last question to you, Witness. Do you know
18 of other Croats who were beaten by Arkan's men?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And who were those other Croats?
21 A. Marijan Simunovic, Ivan Jakob, and a few other villagers.
22 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that 65 ter 4802.3 at tab 12 be
23 shown.
24 Q. Witness, do you see the photograph in front of you? Do you --
25 A. Yes.
Page 2689
1 Q. Do you recognise the man in this photograph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who is this man?
4 A. Milorad Stricevic.
5 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this document be tendered
6 into evidence.
7 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, this document is already admitted
8 into evidence as Exhibit P9. Thank you.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MS. DENNEHY:
11 Q. Witness, what was Milorad Stricevic's relationship with Arkan?
12 A. He was his colonel.
13 Q. And were there other colonels that Arkan had in his men?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you name those colonels for me, please?
16 A. Colonel Peja, Milorad Ulemek.
17 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now please ask that 65 ter 4762, that's at
18 tab 5, be shown. This is a video-clip, and the relevant parts are at
19 42.3, that's 42 minutes, 30 seconds.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MS. DENNEHY:
22 Q. Witness, on the screen in front of you, do you recognise any of
23 these men?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who are these men?
Page 2690
1 A. Arkan's officers.
2 Q. Can you name any of these men for me?
3 A. The first on the right is Suco. Next to him is Bojke, and then
4 Jova, and finally Kaljavi.
5 Q. And the first individual who you named, is this the man who beat
6 your husband?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. DENNEHY: Can the record please show that the witness has
9 identified the individual at 43.19 of this video as the individual Suco,
10 the man who beat her husband.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think the record shows.
12 MS. DENNEHY:
13 Q. Witness, do you recognise the other images in this video?
14 A. This is in the Erdut Training Centre where he trained the Serbian
15 Volunteer Guards.
16 Q. Where who trained the Volunteer Guards?
17 A. Arkan and his officers.
18 Q. And the lineup that you've just seen in the video, was that usual
19 to see Arkan's men in such a formation?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this video be tendered into
22 evidence?
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer ]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, would this be 4762 or 4762.3,
Page 2691
1 because that's the video -- or the CD the Registrar has.
2 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President. That will be .3.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Point 3, okay. Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1002. Thank
5 you.
6 MS. DENNEHY:
7 Q. What did your husband do after he was beaten by Arkan and his
8 men -- or excuse me, let me rephrase it. What did your husband do after
9 he was beaten by Stricevic and Suco?
10 A. He requested protection from the local police.
11 Q. And who at the local police did he seek protection from?
12 A. From Bozidar Bolic.
13 Q. And who was Bolic?
14 A. The police commander.
15 Q. And how did Bolic react to your husband's request for protection?
16 A. He said he could not protect him. The only thing for him to do
17 was to go across the river to Vojvodina. That's what he said.
18 Q. And why did Bolic say that he could not protect your husband?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Where did your husband then go?
21 A. A villager drove him in the direction of Bobota towards the
22 active command of the JNA of Yugoslavia.
23 Q. And what did your husband do at Bobota?
24 A. He was a member of the reserve JNA strength. That's what they
25 gave him to do.
Page 2692
1 Q. And how many days after his beating did your husband leave for
2 Bobota?
3 A. On the third day.
4 Q. And were you harassed by Arkan's men when they realised that your
5 husband had joined the reserves?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And how did they harass you?
8 A. One morning, two Arkan's soldiers came to my house. We were
9 still asleep, I, my mother, and my three children. They ordered us to
10 gather in the hallway, and they asked me where my husband, the Ustasha,
11 was.
12 Q. How did you feel when they gathered you and your three children
13 and they called your husband an Ustasha?
14 A. It was very bad, terrible.
15 Q. Can I just confirm one of your earlier replies. I asked you what
16 did your husband do at Bobota, and you said that he joined the reserve
17 JNA. Can you please confirm what -- what reserve force did your husband
18 join?
19 A. The reserve force of the Yugoslav People's Army.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that 65 ter 4789 be shown. That's at
22 tab 7.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MS. DENNEHY:
25 Q. Witness, do you recognise the room in this video?
Page 2693
1 A. I don't have anything on the screen.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MS. DENNEHY:
5 Q. And where is this room?
6 A. In the centre where he trained his men.
7 Q. And did you work in this room?
8 A. Not in this room but in the kitchen next to this room.
9 Q. And do you recognise the individual in the video?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who is this individual?
12 A. Arkan.
13 Q. And do you recognise the animal in the video?
14 A. A little tiger.
15 Q. And did this tiger live at the training centre?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this video, that's
18 65 ter 4789.1, be admitted into evidence.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1003. Thank
21 you.
22 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that exhibit 65 ter 873, that's at
23 tab 3, be shown. I apologise, it's 00873. Can we please go to page 2,
24 scroll down to page 2 of that document.
25 Q. Witness, at page 2 of the document, I'd like to draw your
Page 2694
1 attention to the line that says:
2 "Food is of very good quality and well varied ... there are
3 reportedly unlimited supplies of chocolate and juices."
4 In your opinion, was there well varied food available at the
5 camp?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. DENNEHY: Now, if we can please go to page 7 of this
8 document. That's English page 7.
9 Q. Witness, if I can draw your attention to number 2 where the
10 document states:
11 "Building number 2: A cinema auditorium with 182 seats, a
12 canteen with high-standing tables ..."
13 And further down:
14 "A kitchen with the latest kitchen equipment, meal preparation
15 area with equipment, dining-room with 100-seat capacity and hot service
16 counter."
17 From your experience at the training centre, does this
18 information accurately reflect the equipment that was available at the
19 centre?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the cinema auditorium with 182 seats, was this a room at the
22 training centre?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if you see at number 4, at the same page, where it notes:
25 "A storage area with two rooms for storing weapons and
Page 2695
1 ammunition ..."
2 From your knowledge of the centre grounds, was there a storage
3 area for storing weapons and ammunition?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this document be admitted
6 into evidence.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1004. Thank
9 you.
10 MS. DENNEHY:
11 Q. Witness, I would now like to speak to you about the camp and the
12 discipline at the camp. Can you please describe the discipline regime
13 imposed by Arkan at the training camp?
14 A. He was very strict.
15 Q. How did you know he was very strict?
16 A. He did not allow people to drink alcoholic drinks, and the
17 attitude towards the soldiers was very strict.
18 Q. And how did Arkan's soldiers behave as a result of the regime,
19 the strict regime?
20 A. They were pretty disciplined.
21 Q. How did Arkan react to misbehaviour by his soldiers?
22 A. He punished them by tying them to a tree and beating them.
23 Q. Did he punish them by tying them to a tree and beat the soldiers
24 himself? Did he himself do the beating?
25 A. No, his officers did.
Page 2696
1 Q. Can you describe an incident where you saw soldiers being beaten
2 for misbehaviour?
3 A. Yes. He was tied to a tree in front of the kitchen. Two of his
4 officers were beating him with police batons. You know those are sticks
5 that we call police batons.
6 Q. And who was tied to a tree?
7 A. One of his soldiers.
8 Q. And what happened after the officers had finished beating him
9 with the police batons?
10 A. He fainted. They poured water over him, and they took him to
11 their prison.
12 Q. And what had this soldier done in order to be punished in this
13 way?
14 A. He had been drinking.
15 MS. DENNEHY: Your Honours, I note the time and wonder whether
16 now might be an appropriate time to rest.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Dennehy.
18 Witness, we will take our first break. We will come back at
19 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of court. Thank you.
20 Just one moment, please. Mr. Usher, just one moment. Closed
21 session, please.
22 [Closed session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2697
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
11 you.
12 MS. DENNEHY:
13 Q. Witness, before the break we -- you spoke about the manner in
14 which Arkan used to punish his men. Did any of Arkan's men ever try to
15 escape from the training camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you describe an incident that you know of when one of Arkan's
18 men escaped from the camp or attempted to escape from the camp?
19 A. His name was Neso. He was from Serbia, from a town called
20 Smederevska Palanka, a young boy. He realised that the centre was not
21 his place, and he tried to escape, but Arkan's soldiers caught him and
22 took him back to the centre.
23 Q. And what happened when Arkan's soldiers caught him and brought
24 him back to the centre?
25 A. They dressed him in the old Yugoslav uniform, and he was punished
Page 2698
1 by chores such as collecting rubbish over the yard.
2 Q. Did Neso attempt to escape the camp after the first time?
3 A. Yes, he did. And on his second try, the soldiers caught him but
4 he did not come back to the centre.
5 Q. What do you think happened to him?
6 A. They killed him.
7 Q. Did anyone inquire about his whereabouts after his disappearance?
8 A. His parents came to visit him. They were received by
9 Colonel Savo, who told them that he was killed in combat.
10 Q. Was there any investigation into his disappearance?
11 A. No.
12 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that 65 ter 4765.1, that's at tab 6, be
13 shown.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MS. DENNEHY:
16 Q. Witness, do you recognise the scenes in the video?
17 A. It was the compound of the centre. The assembly of his guard
18 with a trumpet.
19 Q. And do you recognise the individual playing the trumpet?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Who is that individual?
22 A. One of his soldiers.
23 Q. Do you know his name?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you recognise the flag that is flying in the video?
Page 2699
1 A. The Serbian flag.
2 MS. DENNEHY: Your Honours, may I ask that this video be admitted
3 into evidence.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1005. Thank
6 you.
7 MS. DENNEHY:
8 Q. Witness, who were the foreign dignitaries who visited Arkan at
9 the training centre?
10 A. Mr. Zhirinovski, Vladimir Zhirinovski.
11 Q. Was there anyone else who visited Arkan?
12 A. The minister of Krajina, Mr. Mrgud.
13 Q. Do you know Mr. Mrgud's full name?
14 A. His last name was Milutinovic.
15 Q. You said that Mr. Zhirinovski visited Arkan. Where was
16 Mr. Zhirinovski from?
17 A. Russia.
18 Q. And who was Vladimir Zhirinovski?
19 A. I think he was a politician.
20 Q. And how did Arkan treat the visit of Vladimir Zhirinovski?
21 A. It was a great honour. He treated him also with honours.
22 Q. And can you describe what those honours involved?
23 A. The whole guard was assembled and a welcome party was organised
24 within the compound.
25 Q. And did any other foreigners visit Arkan at the training centre?
Page 2700
1 A. There was a representative from Greece.
2 Q. Do you know whether this representative from Greece was a
3 government representative?
4 A. It was said he was a politician.
5 Q. Was there any foreign media or journalists at the camp?
6 A. There was a gentleman who spoke English, and he filmed the drills
7 of the guard with his camera, and there was a young man accompanying him
8 wearing a Scottish kilt.
9 Q. Now, going back to late 1991, when you were at home ill at that
10 time, who did you see, at your home, being taken away by Arkan's men?
11 A. From my own house I saw Arkan's men leading local men whose hands
12 were tied with chains, or they were handcuffed in groups of two or three.
13 They were taken by Arkan's men to the centre.
14 Q. And do you know who these men were? Did you recognise them?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Who were they?
17 A. The first one to be taken in was Mr. Vidoje Sutalo, then
18 Stjepan Cakvari, Franjo Piholj [as interpreted], and Andrija Matin.
19 Q. Now, you said that you could see the local men whose hands were
20 tied with chains. Can you describe what the chains looked like?
21 A. Thin chains. Their hands were tied in the back, and the chain,
22 the other end of the chain was held by a soldier.
23 Q. And the men who you saw and who you've named, what ethnicity were
24 those men?
25 A. Mr. Vidoje Sutalo was a Croat. Mr. Stjepan Cakvari was
Page 2701
1 Hungarian. Andrija Matin, Croat, and Franjo Piholj, Croat.
2 Q. And where did Arkan's men take those men who you've named?
3 A. The prison within the compound.
4 Q. And how did Arkan's men treat the detainees during their
5 detention at the camp in the prison?
6 A. I don't know, because I have never been inside in the centre. I
7 always stayed at my own home.
8 Q. Were there other prisoners detained in the camp?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you describe who those prisoners were?
11 A. There were Hungarians.
12 Q. And how many Hungarians were held as prisoner at the camp?
13 A. Fifteen to 20 men.
14 Q. And where were they detained in the camp?
15 A. In that prison within the compound of the centre.
16 Q. And was there anything unusual about where the Hungarians were
17 kept?
18 A. Yes. Those used to be public restrooms converted into a prison,
19 a very cramped space.
20 Q. And how did Arkan's men treat the Hungarian prisoners? What did
21 they make them do?
22 A. They kicked the iron door and made them sing the Serbian anthem.
23 Q. And when you were working in the kitchen, did you cook for those
24 detainees?
25 A. No.
Page 2702
1 Q. Were they given food while they were detained at the centre?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Do you know if any of the other cooks cooked food for the
4 detainees?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And how long were the Hungarian men detained for at the training
7 centre?
8 A. Around eight days.
9 Q. And what happened to them?
10 A. They were taken away. I don't know what they became.
11 Q. And where are they now?
12 A. They're all dead.
13 Q. Witness, you named a number of men whom you saw from your own
14 home, and I'd just like to confirm one of the names. You mentioned
15 Franjo Pihtl. Is that correct? Can you please repeat the person's name?
16 A. Franjo Pihtl, P-i-h-t-l.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you recall seeing female prisoners at the camp?
18 A. I saw two women, one younger, under 35, and one older woman, 65,
19 around 65.
20 Q. And can you describe how the older woman looked when you saw her
21 detained at the camp?
22 A. She was escorted by the soldiers across the yard. She was
23 wearing a gown and slippers.
24 Q. What do you mean by "gown"?
25 A. The robe, the kind you put on when you get up in the morning.
Page 2703
1 Q. And in relation to the Hungarian men who were detained at the
2 prison, do you recall any of their names?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell me their names?
5 A. Bence, Mr. Bence. Then Nikola Kalozi, and two other men named
6 Kalozi. I can't recall their first names now.
7 Q. And other than the Hungarian men and the women who you've
8 described, do you know of anyone else who was detained at the centre?
9 A. A local man, Albert Djuro, Helena Albert, Antun Zubovic,
10 Antun Moskovic, Viktorija Albert, Ana Terzic.
11 Q. And what happened to those people who you've just named?
12 A. They were all killed during the war.
13 Q. Do you know or did you know Marinko Simunovic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What happened to him?
16 A. He was also detained. He was beaten up at the centre, at the
17 prison there, and later at his home already he succumbed to the injuries
18 he sustained during the beating.
19 Q. You say that he succumbed to his injuries. What do you mean?
20 A. Since he was beaten up there, he was released to go home, and he
21 died at his home.
22 Q. Did you know a woman or know of a woman called Manda Maj?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What happened to Manda?
25 A. The local police took her away by night and she was also killed.
Page 2704
1 Q. And who took her away?
2 A. Two policemen from the local police force.
3 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that 65 ter 6254 now be shown on the
4 screen.
5 Q. Witness, do you see the photograph in front of you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you recognise what this photograph represents?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is the image in front of us?
10 A. You can see the centre where Arkan trained his guard; the winery,
11 the wine factory; and the chateau inside the winery.
12 Q. Can you take the pen in front of you and draw a circle around the
13 area that you call Arkan's camp.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Can you write the number 1 next to that, please.
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Witness, can you now draw a circle around your house and write
18 the number 2 next to it.
19 A. [Marks]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, should we go into closed session for
21 this?
22 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Closed session, please -- private session, yes,
24 of course.
25 [Private session]
Page 2705
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Page 2705 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2706
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
3 you.
4 MS. DENNEHY:
5 Q. Witness, you've just testified that you saw Mr. Hadzic at the
6 camp around a dozen times. Why was Mr. Hadzic at the camp, at the
7 training camp?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Who did he visit there?
10 A. Arkan.
11 Q. And you said that Mr. Hadzic resided at the Dvorac. Can you
12 please describe what that building was?
13 A. It was an apartment where he usually stayed in the castle.
14 Q. And why did Mr. Hadzic stay in the castle?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. What position did Mr. Hadzic hold at the time?
17 A. He was the president of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
18 Q. Did Mr. Hadzic hold meetings at the castle?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what kind of meetings were those?
21 A. Political.
22 Q. Who attended those meetings?
23 A. People from the government.
24 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that 65 ter 4879.1 be shown.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 2707
1 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] ... question mark whether the Serb
2 region is to stay within Croatia. Serb people do not accept that because
3 they want to be within --"
4 MS. DENNEHY: Can we please play the video-clip again.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] He was satisfied with the present
7 course of discussions and that a step forward had been made. It is still
8 under question mark whether the Serb region is to stay within Croatia.
9 The Serb people do not accept that because they want to be within ..."
10 MS. DENNEHY:
11 Q. Witness, do you recognise the room in the video?
12 A. It is a room in the castle.
13 Q. And who was the main speaker in the video?
14 A. Goran Hadzic.
15 Q. And what used to take place in this room in the castle?
16 A. Meetings took place there, the meetings of the government of
17 Krajina.
18 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this 65 ter 4879.1 be
19 admitted into evidence.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, the Registrar tells me that the
22 transcript is uploaded -- sorry, isn't uploaded yet. Shall we mark it
23 for identification?
24 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, please, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do so, Mr. Registrar, pending the upload
Page 2708
1 of the transcript.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The document shall be assigned Exhibit Number
3 P1007, marked for identification pending upload of the transcript and the
4 translation. Thank you.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that 65 ter 4879.2 be shown.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Those are Communist borders.
9 Borders have already been moved, external and internal ones, both.
10 Krajina spoke out and you know our big National Assembly's decision
11 disrupted its legal continuity with the Republic of Croatia. So the
12 borders are as they are, and I'm in favour of not changing them. Leave
13 them as they are. This means ..."
14 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that the video-clip be replayed and
15 frozen at the outset, the first -- 13.04.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Those are Communist borders."
18 MS. DENNEHY:
19 Q. Witness, I've now shown you another video-clip. Do you recognise
20 the room, again, in this video-clip?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is this the same room as before?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 Q. And who do you recognise as the individual on the screen in front
25 of you?
Page 2709
1 A. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.
2 Q. And can you confirm again where this meeting is taking place?
3 A. In the castle's conference hall.
4 MS. DENNEHY: May I ask that this video-clip be admitted into
5 evidence.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked. The same problem.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The document shall be assigned Exhibit Number
8 P1008, marked for identification pending upload of the translation and
9 the transcript. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 MS. DENNEHY: May I ask that 65 ter 4809.5 now be shown.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] I hope that regarding the ongoing
14 acceptance of the amendments as proposed by Presidents Milosevic and
15 Bulatovic, if they will be accepted, and I'm not sure if he had accepted
16 them, they would mean a step forward. However, what I'm saying is that
17 this can be only the first step forward, but the final decision for our
18 problem can be reached only through the United Nations."
19 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that this be shown again and it frozen at
20 the outset. And it --
21 [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. DENNEHY:
24 Q. Witness, do you recognise the room in front of you on the screen?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2710
1 Q. And where is this room?
2 A. In the castle.
3 Q. And who is the main speaker in this video-clip?
4 A. Mr. Goran Hadzic.
5 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this video-clip be admitted
6 into evidence.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1009, marked
9 for identification pending upload of the transcript and translation.
10 Thank you.
11 MS. DENNEHY:
12 Q. Witness, you mentioned that Mr. Hadzic held government meetings
13 at the castle, at the Dvorac. Do you know who attended those meetings?
14 Do you know anyone in particular who attended?
15 A. Mr. Minister whose nickname was Mrgud.
16 Q. And do you recall Mrgud's full name?
17 A. Milutinovic, but I don't know the first name.
18 Q. Were there any other Krajina government officials who you saw in
19 Erdut at these meetings?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And who were those officials?
22 A. Mr. Dokmanovic, Mr. Hadzic, and Mr. Milutinovic.
23 MS. DENNEHY: If I could ask that 65 ter 6254 be shown again on
24 the screen.
25 Q. Before we go any further, Witness, can I ask you whether by
Page 2711
1 Mr. Milutinovic you mean Mr. Milanovic when you speak of Mrgud?
2 A. Yes, Milanovic.
3 Q. And how often did you see Milanovic in Erdut?
4 A. He used to visit Arkan in the centre.
5 Q. How often did he visit Arkan? Did he visit him frequently?
6 A. Often.
7 Q. Can you give me -- can you tell me whether it may have been once,
8 twice a month or more?
9 A. Twice a month.
10 Q. And how did Arkan behave towards Milanovic?
11 A. He was arrogant towards him.
12 Q. And do you know the purpose of Milanovic's visits to Arkan's
13 training centre?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If you can now look at the photograph in front of you. I would
16 like to ask you how did the government ministers gain access to the
17 Dvorac? On the card in front of you, can you draw a line on the access
18 road to the Dvorac?
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Can you now mark where Arkan's guards were positioned guarding
21 the training camp. Can you mark those with Xs.
22 A. [Marks]
23 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this exhibit be admitted into
24 evidence.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
Page 2712
1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document 6254 marked for the second time
2 in court shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1010. Thank you.
3 MS. DENNEHY:
4 Q. Witness, you've just marked on the photograph the positions of
5 the guards as the government ministers accessed the Dvorac. Did
6 government ministers have to pass through the training camp to get to
7 Dvorac?
8 A. No. There was a separate road that led to Dvorac and another one
9 that led to Arkan's camp.
10 Q. Did government ministers have to pass through Arkan's soldiers in
11 order to get to the Dvorac?
12 A. Yes. They had to go through the line-up of his guards, among his
13 guards.
14 Q. And was there any division or any dividing line between Arkan's
15 camp and the Dvorac?
16 A. Well, only that road.
17 Q. And was the Dvorac and Arkan's camp all within the one compound?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. DENNEHY: If I can now ask that 65 ter 4813.1, that's tab 17,
20 be shown.
21 Mr. President, my Case Manager has asked me to inform you that
22 65 ter 4879.1, 4879.2, and 4809.5 have now had their transcripts uploaded
23 to e-court.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. So we can lift MFI status.
25 MS. DENNEHY:
Page 2713
1 Q. Witness, I would now like to look at a number of photographs of
2 individuals, the first of which is in front of you. Do you recognise the
3 man in this photograph, or both men in this photograph?
4 A. I recognise both. Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic and Mirko Siz.
5 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that this be admitted into evidence.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
7 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1011. Thank
8 you.
9 MS. DENNEHY: Can I next ask that 65 ter 4795.2, that's at
10 tab 23, be shown.
11 Q. Witness, do you recognise the man in the picture in front of you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who is this man?
14 A. Arkan's colonel, Milorad Ulemek.
15 Q. And how do you recognise this Colonel Milorad Ulemek?
16 A. He was also in the centre, in Arkan's training centre.
17 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that this be admitted into evidence.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1012. Thank
20 you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MS. DENNEHY: Can I next ask that 65 ter 4774.2 be shown. That's
23 at tab 27.
24 Q. Witness, do you recognise the man in this photograph?
25 A. Yes.
Page 2714
1 Q. Who is this man?
2 A. Ulemek, also known as Legija.
3 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this be admitted into
4 evidence.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you please ask the witness who Ulemek is.
6 MS. DENNEHY:
7 Q. Witness, who is Ulemek, or otherwise known as Legija?
8 A. He was a soldier, one of the trainers who trained Arkan's army.
9 Q. What was his relationship to Arkan?
10 A. He was one of his officers in charge of training. He trained the
11 troops who were to be sent to the front line.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1013. Thank
14 you.
15 MS. DENNEHY:
16 Q. Witness, other than those soldiers who you've already identified
17 as Arkan's men, are there other individuals who you recall that you saw
18 at Erdut who served in Arkan's unit?
19 A. There were a lot of them. Some I do remember, but you will have
20 to show me photos. Otherwise, I won't be able to recall them.
21 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, may I ask that 65 ter 02343.1 be
22 shown on the screen. This, Mr. President, is not on the Prosecution's
23 65 ter list. It was a document produced in proofing by the witness.
24 And can this be -- can we go into private session as well,
25 please.
Page 2715
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
2 [Private session]
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2716
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2716-2717 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
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24
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Page 2718
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session. Thank you.
8 MS. DENNEHY:
9 Q. Witness, do you recognise any individuals in the photograph in
10 front of you?
11 A. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan; and Mr. Pelevic.
12 Q. What is Mr. Pelevic wearing in the photograph?
13 A. Smoking, a tuxedo.
14 Q. And who was Mr. Pelevic?
15 A. Mr. Pelevic was Arkan's man in charge of training his troops in
16 judo, karate, and now I think he's a politician. I don't know.
17 Q. And did you see him at the training centre in Erdut?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. DENNEHY: Might I ask that this be admitted into evidence.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1014. Thank
22 you.
23 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that 65 ter 4798.1 be shown. That's
24 tab 18.
25 Q. Witness, in the photograph in front of you, do you recognise any
Page 2719
1 of the men?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who do you recognise?
4 A. The first on the right is Mr. Slobodan Novakovic, also known as
5 Cope. He was Arkan's general.
6 Q. Do you recognise anyone else in the photograph?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And how do you recognise Mr. Cope? How do you know who he was?
9 A. Because I saw him in the centre. He would sometimes come to the
10 kitchen.
11 MS. DENNEHY: Can I asked that this be tendered into evidence,
12 please.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1015. Thank
15 you.
16 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that 65 ter 4795.1, that's tab 22, be
17 shown.
18 Q. Witness, do you recognise the man on the far left of this
19 photograph?
20 A. He was Arkan's soldier. His name is Marinac.
21 Q. And how do you recognise him? Where did you see him?
22 A. At the centre.
23 Q. And the man in the centre of this photograph, who is that?
24 A. I think that this is Zeljko Raznjatovic. I believe that's him.
25 MS. DENNEHY: May I ask that this document be admitted into
Page 2720
1 evidence, please.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1016. Thank
4 you.
5 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that 65 ter 4752.2 be shown. That's
6 tab 31.
7 Q. Witness, do you recognise either of the men in this photograph?
8 A. The gentleman at the front of this photo was known as Kaljavi.
9 Q. And how do you recognise him?
10 A. He was in my house looking for my husband.
11 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this be admitted into
12 evidence.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Shouldn't we ask the witness whether this was one
14 of Arkan's men?
15 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President.
16 Q. Witness, was this soldier part of Arkan's men, one of Arkan's
17 soldiers?
18 A. He was one of the officers.
19 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1017. Thank
22 you.
23 MS. DENNEHY:
24 Q. Witness, you have identified a number of officers, Arkan's
25 officers, who -- who -- from these photographs. Where did Arkan's
Page 2721
1 officers live in Erdut?
2 A. At first they lived in the centre, and then some of them
3 continued to live in private houses in Erdut.
4 Q. And who owned those private houses in Erdut?
5 A. Croats.
6 Q. And how did Arkan's men and officers furnish those houses? Where
7 did they get their furniture from?
8 A. They found some on the spot, and the rest they brought in.
9 Q. Where did they bring the furniture from?
10 A. From Bijeljina and Zvornik.
11 Q. Do you know whether they bought the furniture in Bijeljina and
12 Zvornik?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Where did they get the furniture from in -- from Bijeljina and
15 Zvornik?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. When you said that they didn't buy the furniture, where did they
18 get the furniture from?
19 A. I don't know whether the furniture came from shops or whether
20 they took it from some other private houses. I don't know.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, there's probably a misunderstanding.
22 I see in the transcript your question being: "Do you know whether they
23 bought the furniture..." The answer being "No," would mean that the
24 witness doesn't know, wouldn't it?
25 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President.
Page 2722
1 Q. Witness, did any looting take place in Erdut by Arkan's men?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you describe that looting for the Court?
4 A. They usually went into people's houses demanding money, and they
5 also robbed the kiosk in the village.
6 Q. And whose houses did they demand money from?
7 A. Croat and Serb, both.
8 Q. Did refugees arrive in Erdut during the war?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And where did those refugees live?
11 A. Abandoned Croat houses.
12 Q. What do you know about the expulsions from Erdut in Easter 1992?
13 A. People were rounded up in their homes, put on buses and taken
14 somewhere between Osijek and Sarvas.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, I'm sorry, but it's more than time
16 for the second break. Can we do that now?
17 Witness -- first of all, closed session, please.
18 [Closed session]
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2723
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
8 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Witness, before the break I asked you about the looting that took
10 place in Erdut by Arkan's men, and you said that they -- Arkan's men
11 demanded money from both Croat and Serb people. How did Arkan respond
12 when he learned that his soldiers took money from Serbs in Erdut?
13 A. He punished them.
14 Q. What did he do to punish them?
15 A. He beat them. They beat them up and locked them up in the
16 prison.
17 Q. And why did he beat them up?
18 A. He wanted discipline, and he said these things couldn't be done
19 without his knowledge.
20 Q. Now, before the break I also asked you about the expulsions
21 from -- of Croats from Erdut in Easter 1992. You said that people were
22 rounded up and put on buses. Who were the people that were rounded up in
23 Easter 1992 from Erdut?
24 A. Croats and some Hungarians.
25 Q. Were any Serbs expelled from Erdut in Easter 1992?
Page 2724
1 A. No.
2 Q. And who put the Croats and Hungarians on the buses in Erdut?
3 A. Men in camouflage uniforms and wearing masks on their faces.
4 Military camouflage uniforms.
5 Q. Do you know who those men were?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know who was responsible for the expulsions?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were any of Arkan's men involved in the expulsions?
10 A. No.
11 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Your Honours. That concludes my
12 questions for now.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 Cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, madam. I will not address you
18 by name in view of your protective measures. My name is Zoran Zivanovic,
19 and in these proceedings I represent Mr. Goran Hadzic. I will put to you
20 a few questions regarding the evidence you have given.
21 First of all, concerning the part where you spoke about the
22 bombing, although I believe it was the shelling of the water supply
23 system, would you tell me, do you know why it was precisely the water
24 supply system that was shelled, that was targeted by this attack?
25 A. The soldiers of the Home Guards of Croatia were located there.
Page 2725
1 Q. Thank you for that answer. It is a worthwhile clarification.
2 You have said that, among others, your husband was a victim of
3 cruel treatment by Arkan and his men. Do you know what those allegations
4 against him were based on? Who started all this business against your
5 husband?
6 A. Colonel Milorad Stricevic told me that he had a document from
7 local residents to the effect that my husband was an Ustasha.
8 Q. And only because of that he was locked up and subjected to that
9 interrogation and the beating. Did they ask anything from him?
10 A. No.
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think we have to go to -- into private session,
20 and we have to redact that last question and answer.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour. I apologise.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2726
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
19 you.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you know -- are you able to tell whether what you saw was a
22 press conference, a cabinet session, or something else?
23 A. One of those was a press conference, and the other one was a
24 cabinet session.
25 Q. Can you explain which one was a press conference and which one
Page 2727
1 was a cabinet session, and how did you come to the conclusion which was
2 which?
3 A. Mr. Hadzic made a speech after coming back from The Hague. He
4 addressed journalists and reporters, telling them about these discussions
5 concerning the survival of Serbs in that Krajina.
6 Q. And in the other situation what was going on?
7 A. In the second clip there were his ministers.
8 Q. Did you recognise those ministers?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember who they were?
11 A. There was Mr. Mrgud and Mr. Dokmanovic.
12 Q. The clip shown you by the Prosecution? Just now while you were
13 giving evidence.
14 A. Yes. During my testimony, I saw the press conference.
15 Q. I see. That's the reason I asked you. I'm asking you only about
16 those two video-clips shown you by the Prosecutor showing Goran Hadzic.
17 I'm asking about them. Those were both press conferences; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In other words, you saw Dokmanovic and Milanovic Mrgud in some
20 other video-clip that has not been shown here today.
21 A. Yes.
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2728
1 (redacted)
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You have described how Arkan punished his own soldiers for
25 various disciplinary infractions, violations, et cetera, and just now
Page 2729
1 towards the end you spoke about the robbing of a kiosk in the village.
2 Why was that kiosk so important that they should steal something from
3 there? What did they steal?
4 A. Cigarettes and whatever money there was.
5 Q. And that was stolen by members of that Arkan's unit?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were they punished for that? Do you know?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In the way you described, in the same way?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And could you just explain, because the Prosecutor asked you
12 about it, you confirmed that he meted out punishment for robberies
13 against Serbs. Did he punish people for kinds of robberies because they
14 were committed without any orders, without any sense, or only if it
15 concerned Serbian property?
16 A. Generally if it was done while he was absent from the centre. He
17 punished people if they had committed robberies when he was away.
18 Q. That means if they robbed Serbs and non-Serbs. Did I understand
19 you correctly?
20 A. I don't know about non-Serbs, but I know that he punished them
21 for robbing Serbs.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. I have no
23 further questions.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Redirect, Ms. Dennehy?
25 MS. DENNEHY: I also have no further questions, Mr. President.
Page 2730
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Witness, this -- oh, I'm sorry. I
2 should first ask my colleagues whether they have any questions.
3 Judge Mindua.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. I have one or two
6 questions for you. My first question is transcript page 56, lines 17
7 through 24. The Prosecutor asked you who were the men who put the Croats
8 and the Hungarians on buses in Erdut, and you said those were men in
9 uniforms, in camouflage uniforms, wearing masks on their faces. And
10 there was another question, whether there were Arkan's soldiers among
11 those men dressed in camouflage uniform, and you said, no, there were no
12 Arkan's men.
13 How do you know that there were no Arkan's men among those who
14 wore camouflage uniforms and wore masks?
15 A. The people who were on the buses who had returned home believed
16 that no Arkan's men were among those.
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. There was
18 another question from the Prosecutor, page 35, line 1 and 2. You said
19 there were Hungarians who were detained and who were at some point forced
20 to sing the Serbian anthem, and they stayed locked up for eight days and
21 later they were gone. You don't know what became of them. And then
22 later you said they were all dead. How do you know they were dead?
23 A. Because there was an exhumation later, and those people were
24 identified among those killed.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Now I
Page 2731
1 understand.
2 And my last question: You have described the weapons carried by
3 Arkan's men. That was on page 16, lines 14 through 16. I know that you
4 were able to describe those weapons very well. Do you have some
5 knowledge of weapons?
6 A. They told us themselves in talking amongst them what kind of
7 weapons they were carrying.
8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It is very
9 clear now.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Witness, I have one small question for you
11 myself.
12 Could we go into private session for a moment, please.
13 [Private session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2732
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ma'am, this brings your testimony to an end. We
14 thank you for coming to assist the Tribunal. You're now released as a
15 witness. We wish you -- we wish you a safe journey back home. The court
16 usher will escort you out of court after we go into closed session.
17 Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 [Closed session]
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
Page 2733
1 you.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Stringer, do we have another witness?
4 MR. STRINGER: Unfortunately, no, Mr. President. This witness
5 and also the previous witness, the cross-examinations were concluded
6 earlier than previewed, and so we have just received the next witness
7 into the building. She travelled today. So she will be ready for
8 Thursday morning.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. So we will resume at 9.00,
10 Thursday morning. Court adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.15 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day
13 of January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.
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