Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2734

 1                           Thursday, 24 January 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

12     please.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

14     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton; intern,

15     Agnieszka Bugaj; and case manager, Thomas Laugel.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Chris Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             The witness may be brought in.  Closed session, please.  Thank

22     you.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2735

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 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             Ma'am, you have protective measures, pseudonym and voice

14     distortion and face distortion -- no voice.  Okay, face distortion.

15     Pseudonym and face distortion.  Therefore, we won't mention your name and

16     we will address you as "Witness," simply as "Witness."  You are about to

17     read the solemn declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell

18     the truth.  I must point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself

19     to the penalties of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful

20     information to the Tribunal.

21             Could you now read the solemn declaration the usher will give

22     you, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  GH-107


Page 2736

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your witness, Ms. Clanton.

 5             MS. CLANTON: [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  May I ask the court usher

 8     to please show the witness 65 ter 06382, not to be broadcast.  And this

 9     is --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For the personal data of the witness, wouldn't it

11     be better to go into private session, Ms. Clanton?

12             MS. CLANTON:  Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Because you will probably ask some questions

14     about her career and so on?

15             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, this is simply the pseudonym sheet.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, I know, but afterwards, wouldn't you ask

17     some questions that would better be asked in private session?

18             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I was going to not do that

19     immediately.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So pseudonym sheet, not broadcast.  Can we

21     do that?

22                           Examination by Ms. Clanton:

23        Q.   Ma'am, the Court has ordered certain protective measures with

24     respect to you and your evidence, including a pseudonym and image

25     distortion.  If you could please look at the pseudonym sheet that appears

Page 2737

 1     in front of you.  Without reading anything on the sheet in front of you,

 2     can you tell us if it is your name that appears.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And directing your attention to where it says "date of birth," is

 5     that your date of birth?

 6        A.   It is.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender the pseudonym

 8     sheet, 06382, into evidence under seal, please.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked under seal.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1018.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MS. CLANTON:  Can I ask the court officer to please bring up

14     65 ter number 02389 at this time, not to be broadcast.  I would also like

15     to ask the usher to provide a hard copy to the witness, please.

16        Q.   Witness, did you give a statement to representatives of the ICTY

17     in June 1999 in Osijek?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And do you recognise this as your statement?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   If you could please look at your screen at the English version in

22     front of you and tell me if you recognise the signature at the bottom of

23     the page.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Whose signature is that?


Page 2738

 1        A.   Mine.

 2        Q.   And before testifying today, did you have a chance to review a

 3     translation of this statement in your own language?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. CLANTON:  And for the next question I'd like to go into

 6     closed session, please -- private session.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 2739

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MS. CLANTON:

19        Q.   Ma'am, with the corrections that you've just indicated, are you

20     satisfied that the information contained in your written statement is

21     accurate and correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And again, with the corrections we have just made, if you were

24     asked the same questions today, would you provide the same answers?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 2740

 1        Q.   And finally, now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you

 2     affirm the accuracy and the truthfulness of your statement?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution would

 5     like to tender 65 ter 2389 and the associated exhibit 2388 into evidence

 6     under seal.  We've also prepared the redacted version of the statement,

 7     which is 65 ter 02389.1, which may also be admitted.  The associated

 8     exhibit is at tab 3.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  The confidential statement shall be assigned

11     Exhibit Number P1019, admitted under seal.  The public redacted version

12     of the statement shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1019.1.  And the

13     associated exhibit, 65 ter document 2388 shall be Exhibit Number 1020.

14     Thank you.

15             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, the associated exhibit should also be

16     admitted under seal, please.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we do that, Mr. Registrar?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             MS. CLANTON:

21        Q.   Ma'am, if you feel that answering any question would reveal your

22     identity, you may indicate your concerns about answering that question

23     publicly, that is, in open session.

24             Before the war began, what was the ethnic composition of Klisa?

25        A.   10 per cent Croat, 90 per cent Serb.

Page 2741

 1        Q.   And how far from Klisa is the town of Celije?

 2        A.   I would not know now exactly how many kilometres, but it's not

 3     far by road.

 4        Q.   What happened in Celije in the summer of 1991?

 5        A.   We saw thick smoke, a lot of smoke, and we knew something

 6     terrible had happened.

 7        Q.   What was the ethnic composition of Celije?

 8        A.   It was 100 per cent Croat.

 9        Q.   What happened to the Croats of Celije?

10        A.   Some were killed and some managed to escape.

11        Q.   What impact did this destruction of Celije have on you and the

12     local Croat population in Klisa?

13        A.   That caused great fear.

14        Q.   And in Klisa in 1991, were there any changes that you observed in

15     respect of the people who you saw in the village?

16        A.   When the troops started coming in, our local people changed

17     completely.  It was not the same population as before.

18        Q.   These troops that came in, what was their ethnicity?

19        A.   Serbs.

20        Q.   What information did you hear about where they came from?

21        A.   It was said they came from Belgrade, Kragujevac, Nis.

22        Q.   And how were they dressed?

23        A.   A variety of uniforms because there were all sorts of troops, the

24     Yugoslav People's Army and those paramilitary units.

25        Q.   And a moment ago you mentioned the Serbs who were from Klisa.

Page 2742

 1     How were these local Serbs dressing at this time?

 2        A.   The men wore those military uniforms.

 3        Q.   Did you hear that the local Serbs who wore the military uniforms

 4     belonged to or were linked with any armed units in the area?

 5        A.   Yes, because they were all together.  They went around together.

 6     They drove around in cars together.

 7        Q.   Have you heard of Arkan and his men or Arkan and his volunteers?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you hear that the local Serbs in uniform had any connections

10     with these units?

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection, leading.

12             MS. CLANTON:

13        Q.   What did you hear in the village about who the local Serbs were

14     associated with?

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, objection.  The -- actually, the

16     witness's potential answer has now been contaminated by the leading

17     question, hasn't it?  So I object --

18             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I can ask the question --

19             MR. GOSNELL:  I object to both the questions and I would suggest

20     that even a neutral answer [sic] now is going to contaminate the answer.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton.

22             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I can rephrase the question.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do carefully.

24             MS. CLANTON:

25        Q.   Witness, what did you observe about the behaviour of these local


Page 2743

 1     Serbs and Serbs who had just come to the region?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Where were they meeting?

 4        A.   Well, they got together and some moved into the houses of Croats

 5     who had left, and others had a building that used to be a co-operative or

 6     a warehouse.

 7        Q.   Do you know if they went to any other towns?

 8        A.   Well, they drove around everywhere.  They did not really walk

 9     about.  They drove around, but where they went I wouldn't know.

10        Q.   Do you know the names of any of the towns where they went?

11        A.   Those Serbian villages around -- between us and Vukovar, so they

12     probably went to those Serbian villages.

13        Q.   Can you provide us with any names?

14        A.   Tenja.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I'd like to move into private session.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

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Page 2744











11 Pages 2744-2746 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2747

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19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask that 65 ter 06373, a

23     photograph, be placed in front of the witness.  This is at tab 4.

24        Q.   Ma'am, do you recognise the road and the building in this

25     picture?


Page 2748

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you know the name of the road?

 3        A.   It's Vukovarska Street.

 4        Q.   And what town is this in?

 5        A.   Klisa.

 6        Q.   And the gate and the building that are visible on the left side,

 7     do you recognise those buildings?

 8        A.   I can't see any buildings depicted in this photo.

 9        Q.   Do you see the gate?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you know who owns the property that is behind the gate?

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Page 2749

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 7                           [Private session]

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the exhibit is admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1021.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MS. CLANTON:  I think we need to go back into private session,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

17                           [Private session]

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Page 2751











11 Page 2751 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2752

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Clanton.

 9             Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

11        Q.   Good morning, Madam Witness.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell.  I represent Mr. Hadzic in these

14     proceedings and I have just a very few questions for you today.  If any

15     of my questions aren't clear, please feel free to ask me to elaborate or

16     clarify.  Do you understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 65 ter 00978, please.  And this was

19     on tab 7 of the OTP's original exhibit list.  And I'm interested, in

20     particular, in zooming in on the paragraph immediately after the first

21     full subheading, and that subheading reads:

22             "The arming of the Serbs, barricades."

23             And that's on page 2 of the English at the very top of the page,

24     and in the B/C/S it should be down there starting at the bottom of the

25     left-hand column.  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.


Page 2753

 1        Q.   Now, ma'am, I just want to ask you about some details surrounding

 2     what was going in Klisa before this event that you've been talking about

 3     today.  And here it says that:

 4             "Klisa village, next to the Osijek airport, is a village with

 5     12 Croatian and more than 100 Serbian houses.  Even though in Trpinja -

 6     the neighbouring village is, just like Klisa, on the road to Vukovar -

 7     barricades were set up as early as in May, the Serbs from Klisa delayed

 8     setting them up until 24 August."

 9             Now, as far as you can recall, is that correct, that barricades

10     were not set up in Klisa until the 24th of August?

11        A.   I really can't remember any of the dates.

12        Q.   And there's an individual who is reported as having made a

13     statement in this article and it's someone named Josip Horvat.  Do you

14     know Josip Horvat?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   He is reported here as saying at some point that I saw -- and I

17     quote:

18             "'I saw that the Serbs were arming themselves and where they

19     unloaded and stored automatic weapons.  When I told this to our Guards at

20     the airport, they replied several days later that they had received an

21     order from Osijek that they must not disarm the Serbs ...'"

22             Now, what I want to ask you about this is whether you know

23     whether there were Guards present at the Osijek airport at any time, May,

24     June, July, August 1991?

25        A.   I don't know, I don't.

Page 2754

 1        Q.   Do you know whether there were Guards or any armed Croatian

 2     forces at all anywhere in the area of Klisa, in the vicinity?

 3        A.   In Klisa, the only armed people were the Serb army.  I don't know

 4     about anybody else.

 5        Q.   And when is it that the Serb army arrived there?

 6        A.   Sometime after Celije.  Celije was set on fire and then things

 7     started happening gradually.  I really don't know when that happened in

 8     Celije.

 9        Q.   Well, a little bit further down in this article it says:

10             "Three days after the barricades were set up in Klisa, the

11     Yugoslav Army began to arrive with tanks, personnel carriers, guns, and

12     mortars.  And on the fifth day, there were more than 700 reservists in

13     the village."

14             Now, you've already testified about the arrival of the JNA, but

15     in terms of numbers, do you have any idea whether that's -- that number

16     would be correct, approximately?  Were there 700 reservists in the

17     village by that time?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  The village was full of troops.  I couldn't believe my

19     eyes when I saw so many people there.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  May we have P311, please, which is tab 3 of the

21     Prosecution's original list.  I didn't expect that marking to be there.

22     That's not on the version of P311 that I have.  In any event, I don't

23     think it's important, but perhaps we could zoom in somewhat on the area

24     around the -- what's marked there as the Osijek airport.  Just a little

25     bit, maybe one click, maybe one more.  That's perfect.  Thank you very

Page 2755

 1     much.

 2        Q.   Now, ma'am, here on this map we do see Klisa.  And is that an

 3     accurate representation of where Klisa is --

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 5        Q.   And can you help us understand, to the best of your recollection,

 6     after the arrival of the JNA troops, where was the -- if there was at

 7     all, where was the boundary line approximately between where the Serb

 8     forces were and where the Croat forces were?  Can you describe that for

 9     us?

10        A.   Osijek, near Nemetin, this is where the Croats were.  Tenja was

11     in the Serb hands, Klisa as well, Bobota, Pacetin, Bijelo Brdo -- now you

12     have moved the map.  Can you leave it like this?  Thank you.  Serbs held

13     Klisa, Vera, Bobota, Trpinja, Silas.  They burned down Celije.  Laslovo

14     was also occupied.  Please slow down, don't move the map so fast.

15     Antunovac was a Croatian village, it was occupied.  Tenja was a Serb

16     village.  Antunovac was a Croatian village but occupied.

17        Q.   Ma'am, if I could just assist.  I think there's a problem with

18     the screen because it seems to be focusing in when you touch the screen.

19     So perhaps what we can do is zoom back out a little bit.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm not sure if the Registrar can help and just

21     zoom in a little bit more up in the top half of the document -- yes,

22     that's perfect.  Let's just leave it there.

23        Q.   And, ma'am, if you could just describe that again but this time

24     without touching the screen in front of you, it will be easier.

25        A.   The Serb army occupied Tenja.  Klisa was occupied.  Vera was a

Page 2756

 1     purely Serb village.  I can't see Bobota here, it's on the other side,

 2     but I'm not touching anything.  Antunovac was a Croatian village, people

 3     fled from it.  And then Bijelo Brdo was a predominantly Serb village.

 4     People fled from Sarvas.

 5        Q.   So at this time was Tenja within Serb territory or was it in

 6     Croat territory?

 7        A.   It was Croatian territory; however, it was occupied by the Serbs.

 8        Q.   Do you mean by that that there was some kind of a boundary

 9     between Klisa and Tenja where there were opposing Serb and Croat forces

10     but that --

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Okay.  Perhaps you could explain that a little further because

13     I'm not sure that I understand.

14        A.   Let me put it this way.  The Serbs occupied Tenja.  Klisa was

15     also occupied, and they co-operated, Serbs from Tenja and Serbs from

16     Klisa, Vera, Bobota, Silas, and all the other surrounding places, they

17     co-operated.

18        Q.   So would it be right to say that at this time, in

19     October/November 1991, that Serb forces held Tenja?

20        A.   It was occupied.  Tenja was under the Serb occupation.

21        Q.   And do you know whether there was any infiltration by Croatian

22     forces through that front line, through -- into the area that was held by

23     Serb forces?

24        A.   I don't know that.  I really wouldn't know.

25        Q.   And you were asked the question by the Prosecutor whether your

Page 2757

 1     husband was co-operating with or procured supplies for Croat forces, and

 2     you said the answer to that was no.  Do you know whether there was anyone

 3     in Klisa village who was assisting Croat forces?

 4        A.   No, no.  Nobody in Klisa had any weapons or any assistance.  We

 5     were a minority there.  There were just a few Croat houses.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, about the map, the unmarked version

 7     of this map is, as the Registrar kindly told me, 65 ter number 6329.

 8     Wouldn't it be appropriate to have that one -- I don't know if we still

 9     need it on the screen, but that we -- that you would tender this one

10     rather than work on a marked version.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  I think that's quite a good idea, Mr. President.

12     In fact, in order to make the record absolutely clear, it's been

13     described well, but nonetheless, to make the record clear I think I'd

14     like to bring up 06329.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There it is.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  And if we could zoom in to approximately where we

17     had the zoom with the other map.  I think that's good.

18        Q.   Madam Witness, could I kindly ask you, with the assistance of the

19     usher, to take a pen and mark on the map where it is that there was the

20     limit between Serb forces and Croat forces in November 1991.

21        A.   I could not know exactly.  I wasn't there.  All I know is that

22     they entered Osijek.  How far, though, I don't know.  They entered

23     Osijek, but how far they went in depth I wouldn't know.  I know they held

24     Tenja, the Serbs, but in the territory between Osijek and Tenja, how far

25     they went I don't know.

Page 2758

 1        Q.   Well, instead of having you mark specifically, because it seems

 2     that you don't know -- you don't have the answer to the question with

 3     that level of precision, so let's not have you mark, but let me just ask

 4     you a couple of more specific questions.  You've already said that

 5     Antunovac -- you said that according to your information, according to

 6     what you know -- knew, Antunovac in November 1991 was in Croat hands;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   I don't know the exact date when Antunovac was occupied.  I know

 9     it was occupied, but I can't tell you the date.

10        Q.   Well, in the fall of 1991, leaving aside any precise or specific

11     date, was Antunovac in Croat hands?

12        A.   I don't know the dates.  I can't tell you.  It developed in such

13     a way that I know they occupied it, but I can't you when.  I'm not sure.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Witness, who do you refer to when you say

15     "they occupied"?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm done with that map.  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19     And I won't tender it in any fashion.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. GOSNELL:

22        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, you mention in your witness statement at

23     page 1 of the English -- at page 2 of the English and at page 3 of the

24     English, a certain Rajko Mizdrak, and he's mentioned several times.  And

25     last night we received information from the Prosecution that on the basis


Page 2759

 1     of their conversations with you, they understood that Rajko Mizdrak was

 2     training at Arkan's training centre.  Is that correct?

 3        A.   There was talk about that.  People said that.  I wasn't there to

 4     see it, but people said that's true.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2760

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, could you repeat that for the public

22     record, please.

23             MR. GOSNELL:

24        Q.   Madam Witness, thank you very much for coming to testify.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.


Page 2761

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

 2             Re-direct?

 3             MS. CLANTON:  No, Your Honour.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             Madam Witness, this brings your testimony to an end.  Thank you

16     for coming to assist the Tribunal with your testimony.  You are now

17     released as a witness and we wish you a safe journey back home.  The

18     court usher will escort you out of court in closed session.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [Closed session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 2762

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Just to suggest that the next

 5     witness is ready.  It involves a bit of a personnel change within the

 6     team, and it's possible we could take the break a few minutes early and

 7     come back after the break, then, and be all situated for the next

 8     witness.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  By all means, Mr. Stringer, we have to take the

11     break for the voice distortion that this witness has.  So we'll take the

12     break and come back at 11.00.  Court adjourned.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  There is one matter that we

17     wish to raise before the next witness is brought in.  If we could go into

18     private session briefly.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 2763

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Closed session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Witness, as you have protective measures, we will refer to

24     you as -- simply as "Witness" or "Mr. Witness," just to avoid mentioning

25     your name.  You should also be aware of the shielding of your identity


Page 2764

 1     while in open session, and whenever you need to say something that could

 2     reveal your identity, you can just indicate to us that we have to go into

 3     private session.

 4             Now, you are going to read the solemn declaration, by which

 5     witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I have to point out to

 6     you that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury

 7     should you give untruthful or misleading information to the Tribunal.

 8     Can I now ask you to read the solemn declaration the usher will give to

 9     you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  GH-103

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your witness.

17             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, President, Your Honours.

18             Could we please get 65 ter document 6380 on the screen but not

19     publicly broadcast.

20                           Examination by Mr. Gillett:

21        Q.   Sir, do you see your name and date of birth on the sheet in front

22     of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. GILLETT:  Could we admit that into evidence, please.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

Page 2765

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1022, admitted

 2     under seal.  Thank you.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now get 65 ter document 3258 on the

 4     screen, please.  And at this point, could I ask for some assistance to

 5     hand the witness a hard copy of his statement as we proceed through it.

 6     Thank you.

 7        Q.   Looking at the statement, sir, do you recognise this -- sorry,

 8     firstly, did you give a statement to the representatives of the Office of

 9     the Prosecutor of this Tribunal in May 2012?

10        A.   I did.

11        Q.   And do you recognise this to be the statement that you gave?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   And were you given the opportunity to read the statement in your

14     own language before you signed it?

15        A.   I was.

16        Q.   And this week in The Hague, have you again been given the

17     opportunity to read your statement in your own language?

18        A.   I did.

19        Q.   Now, I understand there are some corrections to be made to the

20     statement and I'm going to go through those.  Firstly, at paragraph 18,

21     the last sentence refers to as many as 4.000 shells hitting Vukovar

22     Hospital per day.  And I understand that this figure is too high.

23             So my question is:  What would you like to say about the

24     intensity of the shelling of the Vukovar Hospital?

25        A.   Well, a couple of thousand fell daily, up to 2.000.  I made a

Page 2766

 1     little mistake there because when I read I was not able to see whether it

 2     was my mistake or the interpreter's mistake, but it was not 4.000.  It

 3     was up to 2.000 a day.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, can I ask you to talk slowly so as

 5     to give the interpreters the opportunity to follow correctly.  Thank you.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Next, is it correct that at paragraph 19 of your statement you

 8     wanted to remove the terms "the warehouse" so that the sentence would

 9     read:

10             "Those who had received medical assistance, they were moved to

11     the nuclear shelter in Borovo Komerc to make room for new patients."

12        A.   Yes, that's right.  That was a technical error.  It should have

13     read "shelter," not "warehouse."  I only noticed when I re-read the

14     statement.

15        Q.   Next, in relation to paragraph 30, I understand you wanted to

16     correct the reference to Captain Sasa arriving with two Chetniks called

17     Nedjeljko Vojnovic and Bogdan Kuzmic.  Is it correct that there were two

18     Chetniks with Captain Sasa in addition to Nedjeljko Vojnovic and

19     Bogdan Kuzmic?

20        A.   There were two Chetniks together with Captain Sasa.  And this

21     Vojnovic and - what's the name of the other one? - Kuzmic, they were

22     employees of the hospital, except that Kuzmic was wearing a uniform

23     because already in June or July he had left the hospital and was no

24     longer working there.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Other than that, are there any more changes that need

Page 2767

 1     to be made to the statement?

 2        A.   I don't think so.

 3        Q.   And do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of the statement?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And if you were asked about these same matters today, would you

 6     give the same answers?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honour, we tender the 65 ter statement 3258.

 9     We also have a public redacted version, 3258.1, that we would tender at

10     this time.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before we do that, Mr. Gillett, there is kind of

12     a problem with the annex to the statement which are a series of

13     photographs marked by the witness, and they're uploaded in e-court in

14     black and white.  Markings almost invisible.  We were wondering whether

15     you have the coloured version available.

16             MR. GILLETT:  As always, you've predicted the next topic.

17     Indeed, these are the associated exhibits, and as you observed, the

18     copies that came out were in black and white.  We've also -- have the

19     originals that he marked in a previous case in colour that we included on

20     the exhibit list, and we've included an additional list that we made,

21     which is 03258.2, which links each of the coloured versions that he

22     originally marked in previous proceedings with each of the pages of the

23     black and white photos that were annexed to his current statement so that

24     you can easily tell which one is which.  So we would ask that they're all

25     admitted for the interests of simplicity.

Page 2768

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And you're sure that now on your exhibit list

 2     there is a coloured version of these photographs?  Because when we looked

 3     into it, there was a black and white version of the photos in it with no

 4     markings at all.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  There should indeed be a colour version.  And, for

 6     example, if we went to 65 ter 02620, I believe that that will be a colour

 7     version.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could we have that on the screen just to make

 9     sure.

10             MR. GILLETT:  I believe the markings are clearer to see on this

11     version.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

13             Sorry.  The statement is admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  The confidential statement shall be assigned

15     Exhibit Number P1023, and the public redacted version shall be assigned

16     Exhibit Number P1023.1.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. GILLETT:  And I understand that in the usual procedure, with

19     the court officer we'll address the associated exhibits.  And if there's

20     any more information required about the coloured versions of the photos,

21     we can provide that.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Much obliged.

24        Q.   Now, sir, turning to the substance of your statement, I'm going

25     to ask you some additional questions about the shelling of Vukovar.

Page 2769

 1     Firstly, at paragraph 10 of the statement you say that in August 1991,

 2     the JNA shelled civilian targets in Vukovar and that your apartment was

 3     hit.  Aside from your apartment, what other civilian locations were hit

 4     at this time?

 5        A.   That was a settlement of four-storey and two-storey buildings.

 6     They bombed that from the air.  My building was hit and the building

 7     facing mine, that one burnt down almost completely; and at the other end

 8     of the street another building was hit.

 9        Q.   Were you given any form of warning before these shells hit your

10     building and the buildings around it?

11        A.   No, we had no warning and we were not expecting it because they

12     were targeting only military installations or those of strategic

13     importance, the silo, the castle, and the secondary school because that's

14     where the members of the Croatian Home Guard were located.

15        Q.   In your statement you say prior to this shelling in mid-August,

16     they had been targeting military locations and that this was the first

17     targeting of civilian locations.  And my question, to clarify:  Why did

18     you not expect a warning before there would be shelling of civilian

19     locations?

20        A.   We were not expecting it.  We thought they would not target

21     civilian buildings, but that started at Mitnica itself.  They started

22     targeting civilian buildings in Mitnica and then all over the town.  We

23     were really unprepared.  We thought they would not target civilians.  We

24     thought they would only concentrate on the location where the members of

25     the Croatian Home Guards Corps were.

Page 2770

 1        Q.   And during the attack on Vukovar, while it was being shelled, did

 2     the inhabitants try to flee the city?

 3        A.   Some tried, but it was difficult.  You see, we were encircled.

 4     All around Vukovar were Serbian villages and there were roadblocks and

 5     barricades there.  It was almost impossible to leave Vukovar.

 6        Q.   Now, in your statement at paragraph 26 and the preceding

 7     paragraphs, you described the JNA and paramilitaries arriving at the

 8     Vukovar Hospital, and specifically at paragraph 26 you describe realising

 9     that you were going to have to leave Vukovar and being upset.  Now, why

10     did you have to leave the city in which you had grown up?

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13     can go where they want to, to Croatia or Serbia.  I was very sorry to

14     even contemplate leaving my town because I grew up there, I lived there

15     all my life, and I was very sad.

16             MR. GILLETT:  Can we get a redaction at page 37, line 5 to 6,

17     about the supervisor.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Registrar, can we?  Thank you.

19             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

20        Q.   And you mentioned you were sorry to have to leave the town of

21     Vukovar, but why did you have to leave the town of Vukovar?  Why couldn't

22     you stay there?

23        A.   We were told that nobody could stay, only Serbs could stay,

24     employees of the hospital of Serbian ethnicity.

25        Q.   And who did this message come from or who was telling you you


Page 2771

 1     were no longer allowed to stay in Vukovar?

 2        A.   Sljivancanin.

 3        Q.   And who is Sljivancanin?

 4        A.   Major.  Veselin Sljivancanin, major, I think, by rank.

 5        Q.   Turning again to your description of the JNA and military --

 6     paramilitaries arriving at the hospital --

 7             MR. GILLETT:  And could we go into private session for this next

 8     question.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2772











11 Page 2772 redacted. Private session.















Page 2773

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

15             MR. GILLETT:

16        Q.   Moving to paragraph 47 of your statement, in this paragraph you

17     mention that while you were on the bus at the JNA barracks and while this

18     threatening behaviour was occurring, one local Chetnik said that:

19             "The ones that Neso had put on the list cannot be saved.  Things

20     will not end well for them."

21             What did he mean that things would not end up well for these

22     people?

23        A.   Well, that they would kill them.

24        Q.   And how did he know this, that they would kill them?

25        A.   You know, I suppose that all those who were in the barracks,


Page 2774

 1     those paramilitaries, they all knew what would happen.  I can't be sure

 2     of that, but that's what I assume and eventually that's what happened.

 3        Q.   And to clarify, when you say "would kill them" and "that's what

 4     would happen," which killing are you talking about?

 5        A.   Well, what do you mean?  What are you asking me?  For example,

 6     when we saw that list -- and I will -- I believe that we will come back

 7     to that later.  When we were on our way back to the hospital, they had

 8     already killed one of the hospital staff, a man who had worked in the

 9     kitchen.

10        Q.   What I'm asking, to clarify, is when you mentioned they would

11     kill them, I'm asking -- and you said that this is what happened, where

12     were the victims killed, aside from this one individual, I'm talking

13     about the group.

14        A.   That person was killed in the hospital, Ivan Bozak.  We already

15     said that.  He was killed in the hospital.

16        Q.   Sorry, not the individual, but all the other people, where were

17     they killed?

18        A.   At Ovcara.  They were taken from the barracks to Ovcara.  They

19     were all executed there.  Perhaps only five or six managed to save

20     themselves.  I know some of their names, I can tell you who they were.

21        Q.   It's okay for the meanwhile.  Now, during proofing yesterday you

22     were shown a video and I'm going to ask you some questions about some

23     parts of that video.

24             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now get video 04892 on the screen.  And

25     the first clip is going to be at 0 minutes and 43 seconds through to

Page 2775

 1     0 minutes and 47 seconds.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. GILLETT:

 4        Q.   Do you recognise any of the people in this shot?

 5        A.   I recognise Mr. Veselin Sljivancanin.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now go to 51 minutes, 54 seconds, to

 7     51 minutes and 59 seconds.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Can we pause there.

10        Q.   Do you recognise anybody in this picture?

11        A.   I recognise a few of them.  Those were all civilians from the

12     Mitnica.  I also lived there which is why I know all of them well.

13        Q.   And what are they doing?

14        A.   They are walking to a collection centre, as far as I know.

15     Pilip Karaula was its commander and the other one was Zdravko Komsic.

16     They negotiated with the international community - I suppose that the

17     guy, the blond guy, that was standing next to the community [as

18     interpreted], came from the international community - and with the army

19     and they agreed a surrender.  And all the civilians from the Mitnica were

20     to be protected.  They are now walking to a collection centre and from

21     there they were all transferred to Mitrovica.  I even saw them leaving.

22             MR. GILLETT:  If we could now play clip 52 minutes and 12 seconds

23     through to 53 minutes and 18 seconds.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I have nothing left.  But please be

Page 2776

 1     honest with me!  Tell me honestly, don't say the things that are not

 2     true.  Tell me only the truth.

 3             "We are innocent.

 4             "What are the conditions like in the town?

 5             "[In English] The town is totally broken.  We have nothing.  The

 6     houses are burned ... the hospital ... we did not have for three months,

 7     no food, no water, no medical things.  They have killed all our friends

 8     and we are not guilty.  We didn't want the war, we only love people.  We

 9     don't kill them and we still don't hate.  We still don't hate.

10             "[Interpretation] My heart is broken."

11             MR. GILLETT:

12        Q.   The conditions in Vukovar that this girl describes, including the

13     lack of medical supplies and the lack of food, is that consistent with

14     what you experienced in Vukovar?

15        A.   Precisely so.  At the hospital we had some supplies, but those

16     who were hiding in the basements of private houses, they had very little

17     food.  Guard members supplied us with pigs and cows that roamed the

18     streets of the city, but there was no water.  We could not kill them and

19     skin them in a very safe way.  But the hospital had experts who examined

20     the meat, so we had food.  We didn't have bread, though.

21             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now go to 1 hour, 11 minutes, and

22     15 seconds, and play the clip through to 1 hour, 11 minutes, and

23     29 seconds.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. GILLETT:  Could we pause there.

Page 2777

 1        Q.   Do you recognise anybody in this shot?

 2        A.   This is our doctor, our dentist, and her father.

 3        Q.   And what are these people doing?

 4        A.   These people are in the centre of Vukovar.  They lived there.

 5     And over bullhorns they were informed to go to the Velepromet collection

 6     centre.

 7        Q.   Why were they told to go to the Velepromet collection centre?

 8        A.   Well, I really wouldn't know that.  That's how things were

 9     decided.  The men were separated from the women and from the Serb

10     citizens.  They separated the Serbs and they set them free, whereas

11     people of Croatian ethnicity and other ethnicities were treated

12     differently.  The men were separated from the women.  And you will see

13     later that the men were then sent to some hangars.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now go to the clip 1 hour and 12 minutes

15     and 36 seconds, through to 1 hour, 13 minutes, and 0 seconds.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. GILLETT:

18        Q.   Who are these soldiers?  How would you describe them?

19        A.   I would say that they were paramilitaries because they were not

20     completely clad in uniforms.  JNA soldiers had different uniforms.  Their

21     uniforms were complete.  They were neat, clean-shaven.  They looked like

22     the real army, and here in the clip you can see that their uniforms are

23     not complete.  One part of their uniform was of one kind and the other

24     part of the uniform was of a different kind.

25             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now go to clip 1 hour, 22 minutes, and

Page 2778

 1     25 seconds, to 1 hour, 22 minutes, and 37 seconds.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. GILLETT:

 4        Q.   Do you recognise this location?

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7     with this company.  They were wholesalers, and I was in the warehouse and

 8     in this courtyard at least once a week.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Can I get a redaction of the line 23 to 24 , where

10     he states his position, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So ordered.

12             MR. GILLETT:  And we're going to now turn to the final part of

13     this video which is the final exhibit I'm dealing with here.  If we could

14     go to clip 1 hour, 39 minutes, and 24 seconds, through to 1 hour,

15     39 minutes, and 40 seconds.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. GILLETT:

18        Q.   First, what building is this?

19        A.   This is the hospital.  This is the main entrance to the new

20     block.

21        Q.   And what are all the people doing outside?

22        A.   These are civilians.  When Vukovar fell, civilians came from all

23     over the place and arrived at the hospital because they thought they

24     would be safe there, that nobody would touch them if they were in the

25     hospital.

Page 2779

 1        Q.   And did that turn out to be correct, that they would be safe and

 2     untouched at the hospital?

 3        A.   Well, it was correct; however, the agreement with the JNA and the

 4     Red Cross from Vukovar was that they would come to fetch them and

 5     transport them.  A list of all those who were there and who were loaded

 6     onto the trucks and taken to Velepromet.

 7             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now play clip 1 hour, 53 minutes and

 8     47 seconds, through to 1 hour and 54 minutes.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. GILLETT:

11        Q.   What are these two rooms that were shown?

12        A.   That was the only true atomic shelter in the hospital.  It

13     consisted of two separate rooms and that's where infants were.

14        Q.   And could you describe briefly the conditions at the hospital?

15        A.   The conditions were terrible.  When that shell hit the hospital,

16     it shattered all the window-panes on the -- all the new hospital

17     buildings.  All the patients had to be lowered into the basement because

18     there were no conditions for them to stay on any of the floors.  It was

19     terrible.  The shell fell and the detonation was so strong that it

20     shattered all the window-panes.  It destroyed all the doors and windows.

21     The patients could not be guaranteed safety, which is why they had to be

22     lowered to the lower floors in the basement.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would now tender this video 4892

24     for admission into evidence.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.


Page 2780

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1024.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. GILLETT:  And that concludes my questions on direct.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7             Cross-examination.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.  My name is Zoran Zivanovic

11     and I represent Goran Hadzic in these proceedings.  I have a few

12     questions for you that arise from your statement and your testimony so

13     far.  First of all, I wanted to ask you, or rather, I would like to shed

14     some more light on the things that you have spoken about here today.  On

15     page 32, you said that about 2.000 shells a day fell on the

16     Vukovar Hospital?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I wanted to ask you whether you're sure about the figure?

19        A.   I can't be sure.  Nobody can be sure.  I know that from early

20     morning, from 7.00 until 11.00, that one shell hit the hospital every

21     minute and that's how I made my calculations.  If you calculate the

22     number of hours -- although the shells fell even during the night but not

23     so many.  The shelling was constant; it just didn't stop.

24        Q.   According to my rough estimate, that would mean that there was

25     one shell every half a minute?

Page 2781

 1        A.   Approximately so.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to come

 3     closer to the microphone and could the counsel be instructed to switch

 4     off his mike when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness and Mr. Zivanovic, two things.  You

 6     both should, as you speak the same language --

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As you both speak the same language and in order

 9     to assist the interpreters, you should stop after question and before

10     answering, so as to allow the interpreters to follow.

11             Second, Mr. Zivanovic -- and the witness could eventually be

12     attentive to that too.  Mr. Zivanovic's microphone has to be shut off

13     before you start answering because through that microphone there is no

14     voice distortion.  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] You mentioned Mitnica during your testimony.

18     Could you please explain the term.  What does the term denote?

19        A.   I remember Mitnica as a child.  I don't know how to explain the

20     word "Mitnica" to you.  Do you know what Mitnica is?  It was like a

21     border crossing.  That's what "Mitnica" stands for.  I wouldn't be able

22     to answer your question precisely.  This is the name that has been known

23     for ages for that part of the city.

24        Q.   Is that part of the town at the very entrance into Vukovar?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 2782

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us whether that part of the city was

 2     actually the last part of the city that the Yugoslav People's Army

 3     occupied during the operations around Vukovar?

 4        A.   I wouldn't know that.  I was in the hospital.  I can't tell you.

 5     I was in no position to know whether it was the first one or the last

 6     one.  I don't know.  I can't answer that because I was in the hospital

 7     all the time.

 8        Q.   And you did not hear that even later?

 9        A.   No, I did not.  But I think that it was among the first -- that

10     there were negotiations with the army and the international community and

11     Pilip Karaula and Zdravko Komsic, who were the commanders of Mitnica,

12     they negotiated a surrender on a condition that civilians wouldn't be

13     touched.  They surrendered their weapons, but they made it conditional on

14     the civilians being protected.

15        Q.   Do you know if that was immediately before the arrival of the

16     troops at the Vukovar Hospital?

17        A.   I think so.

18        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On page 37 of today's transcript, you said, inter alia, that you

23     knew that you would be leaving Vukovar when the JNA arrived.  That's on

24     page 37 of today's transcript.  In paragraph 26 of your statement it says

25     the same.

Page 2783

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 24 of your

 3     statement, to the sentence where you say:

 4             "Later I heard that Major Sljivancanin said that the hospital

 5     staff could stay and continue working.  Most of the Serb personnel

 6     decided to stay."

 7             You stated earlier today that Major Sljivancanin said that only

 8     Serbs could stay.

 9        A.   I may have misspoken, only Serbs.

10        Q.   You heard that?

11        A.   No.  I was the last one to leave.  I don't know whether you read

12   (redacted)

13     Sljivancanin had already held a meeting with the medical staff when the

14     auxiliary services had already been separated from the rest of the

15     hospital staff, and I mean clerks, drivers, and others, they were the

16     ones who were taken to the buses that unfortunately ended up at Ovcara.

17     And the load included slightly wounded patients.  Somebody came to tell

18     us that we were the last to leave.  We didn't know what was going on.

19     Then I saw Mr. Sljivancanin in a meeting.  And then we were taken out.

20     There were three to four soldiers in a gauntlet on each side.  They

21     searched us.  They were probably looking for weapons or I don't know

22     what.  And then we were loaded onto buses.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Sorry, could we get a redaction page 50, line 5,

24     the location where the witness worked.  In general, the fact that he

25     worked at the hospital I don't think is problematic, but the specific


Page 2784

 1     location within the hospital, we tried to draw that line.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett, when asking the -- let's -- sorry,

 3     let's go into private session, please.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]


Page 2785

 1        Q.   Tell me, please, was it said in the morning at the meeting that

 2     you didn't attend and those who attended the meeting passed that message

 3     on to you?

 4        A.   Precisely so.

 5        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   On page 39 of today's transcript - you don't have that on the

10     screen but it doesn't matter - you stated that there were two MUP members

11     bearing the same name, Ivan, and in your statement you mention one of

12     them.

13        A.   Actually, both of them.

14        Q.   Yes, you mention both of them, but one of them was also known as

15     Specijalac?

16        A.   You misunderstood me, I apologise.  There were two Ivans who were

17     MUP members and they secured the old hospital building.  The third guy

18     called Ivan, Ivan Bozak, was at the gate.  He was our doorman.  He was a

19     hospital employee.  The first two were not hospital employees.  They were

20     MUP members who provided security for the hospital building.

21        Q.   Could you please tell me, if you know, of course, why was this

22     person's nickname special?

23        A.   May I?  Yes, I may.  I don't know.  There was a special school.

24     That means that he was a bit retarded, that he was not like anybody else.

25     That's why we called him Specijalac.  That's why he could work at the

Page 2786

 1     gate as doorman and he worked together with Bogdan Kuzmic, who allegedly

 2     ended up killing him.  They were both porters.

 3        Q.   On page 40 of the transcript you said that you knew, or rather,

 4     assumed that these people would be executed, those who were singled out.

 5     Could you explain why didn't it occur to you that they could be sent to

 6     prison?

 7        A.   Because when we were taken to the barracks by those buses,

 8     paramilitaries, Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and the real army met us,

 9     although there were less actual army troops.  And there were also

10     high-ranking officers.  I don't know whether it was Mrksic and Radic.  I

11     think they were there but not Sljivancanin.  And they went around with

12     knives and threatened us, telling us that they would slit our throats.

13     They told one of our colleagues that they would rape his wife, et cetera.

14        Q.   Did I understand you correctly?  One of the officers was reading

15     from a list the names of people who were to be returned to the hospital?

16        A.   Yes, you understood me correctly.  I mean, I assume -- I don't

17     know what kind of rank he had but it was a high rank.  He went around the

18     buses because a list was made at the hospital.  Dr. Ivankovic had asked

19     Sljivancanin's permission to make a list of employees of the hospital

20     from supporting services, specifying that these people had no weapons,

21     et cetera, and they should be returned.  However, not everybody from that

22     list was returned because the fifth column in the hospital - that's my

23     opinion - deleted some names because I know that my wife put certain

24     names on that list and those people were deleted.  They were not called

25     out at the barracks, which means that the list was shortened in the

Page 2787

 1     hospital itself.  It's not the same list that Dr. Ivankovic received in

 2     order to convey to Sljivancanin.  I don't know if you understood me.  If

 3     necessary, I'll repeat.

 4        Q.   Let's clarify one more thing.  You said you went to Velepromet

 5     once a week to get supplies?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was that before the war?

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Registrar, all that has to be redacted.

13     Thank you.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You said at several points in your statement -- you mention the

16     paramilitaries?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Arkan's men, Seselj's men, and also members of the

19     Yugoslav People's Army.  I noticed there is no reference in your

20     statement to reservists.  Do you know that in the operations around

21     Vukovar, the Yugoslav People's Army used not only the conscripts doing

22     their regular military service but also recruits of older age groups that

23     were recruited from the reserve force, the so-called reservists?

24        A.   This is the first time I hear about it.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 2788

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, the Registrar tells me that we have

 2     some problems with the fact that you answer too fast while the microphone

 3     is still open.  That causes problems because then we have to redact

 4     everything.  So if you could please make a pause before you start

 5     answering the question.  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I'll be more careful.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you know, generally speaking, that in the Yugoslav People's

 9     Army, not only during the Vukovar operation but always, there were people

10     who had already done their military service and then received a war-time

11     assignment in the event of war or military drills?

12        A.   I knew that before the war they called up reservists from time to

13     time, but I was not thinking about that in the context of this war

14     because, honestly, I never did my military service - I was declared

15     unfit - so I didn't give it any thought.

16        Q.   Then it is probably difficult for you to distinguish the uniform

17     of reservists from the uniforms of others who belonged to what you called

18     paramilitary forces?

19        A.   Probably.  This is the first time I actually hear this

20     suggestion.  I had never given any thought to reservists, but I know that

21     they were JNA because they looked like real soldiers.  They were properly

22     dressed in uniform, clean-shaven, whereas the others were unkempt and

23     unshaven and looked any which way.  The soldiers were better in every

24     way.

25        Q.   Let me go back to your statement.  Look at paragraph 35 of your

Page 2789

 1     statement.  You said, among other things, that between 9.00 and

 2     10.00 a.m., one of the medical assistants told you to go to the main

 3     entrance to the ER and going down the hallway you noticed that the

 4     patients who used to be in the hallway were missing.  Does it mean that

 5     they had already been taken out of the hospital, put on buses, or taken

 6     in some other way?

 7        A.   Those more lightly wounded had been taken away, whereas those

 8     with serious injuries had already put -- been put on ambulances that went

 9     with us, with the convoy.

10        Q.   Do you know at the time when you were going out, was the convoy

11     with the lightly injured still there or had it already left?

12        A.   Because I was in that convoy with those five/six buses because

13     they had been put on buses and regrettably they ended up in Ovcara, those

14     lightly wounded.  They were first taken to the barracks, and after the

15     reading out of this list, some of us were returned, which was no

16     guarantee that we would be released.  Serb employees of the hospital

17     first had to guarantee for us that we also worked for the hospital and

18     did not have any weapons.

19        Q.   In other words, at that time you were not put in the convoy with

20     other hospital employees but with the lightly injured?

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24     supporting staff, all of them were taken away.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, please.  60 -- page 56, line 13


Page 2790

 1     and 14, I'd say 15 also to be redacted, please.

 2             And, Mr. Witness, to make the business with the microphones work,

 3     because I noticed that it still doesn't, could I ask you after each

 4     question of Mr. Zivanovic to count in your head to five and then start

 5     answering.  By that time, the microphone will be off and the interpreters

 6     will have finished their translation.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  I'm sorry, I have no

 8     experience with this.  I'll do my best.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let us go --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I see the time.  Would this be an

12     appropriate moment?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Witness, we will take our second

15     break of the day and come back at 12.45.  We go into closed session now

16     and the court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

17                           [Closed session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 2791

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, may I remind you to

 4     count to five before answering.  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, let us just repeat.  After leaving the

 8     hospital, you got on a bus where there were both employees of the

 9     hospital and people lightly injured.  Were there also on the same bus

10     members of the Croatian Home Guards Corps?

11        A.   I'm sorry.

12             No, but with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to clear up

13     about the reservists.  At the barracks there was not a single reservist

14     because all of them were young and half of them were men from Vukovar.

15        Q.   Reservists are usually men who are mobilised in extraordinary

16     situations such as an immediate threat of war or war time.  Do you know

17     that such mobilisations were also carried out in the territory of

18     Vukovar?

19        A.   I don't know, but I don't think so.  I believe that they

20     self-organised.  Just as Croats organised themselves to defend Vukovar,

21     the Serbs organised themselves as well.

22        Q.   Let us go back to that bus.  Could you tell us in your estimate

23     what time was it when you got on the bus?

24        A.   Well, between 10.00 and 11.00.  I can't tell you exactly.  It was

25     20 years ago, but it was between 10.00 and 11.00 because we had just

Page 2792

 1     distributed breakfasts and we from the kitchen were the last to come and

 2     we were put on the bus in a group.  Everybody else was already on the

 3     bus.

 4        Q.   You said in your statement that those buses ended up at the

 5     barracks in Vukovar.  Tell me, approximately how much time did it take

 6     you to get to the Vukovar barracks?

 7        A.   About 20 minutes.  If everything had been normal, we would have

 8     gotten there sooner, but since Vukovar was destroyed, streets were

 9     covered in debris, piles of debris, and those were not regular buses.

10     They were military buses with those wooden seats and they moved slowly.

11     It was difficult to move through all that.

12        Q.   You said that when the buses arrived at the barracks, there were

13     people around the buses threatening those on the bus, and among those

14     people there were also officers who did nothing to stop the others.  I'd

15     like to know, in your estimate, were those officers able to prevent that

16     if they had wanted to?

17        A.   Of course they were able to.  They just didn't want to.  You see,

18     if somebody is a high-ranking officer, they had some authority.  But they

19     just let it happen.  When that bus was put together, when the group was

20     put together to be returned, they made us go through a gauntlet and they

21     were hitting us with bats, with clubs.  And there was an officer there, a

22     high-ranking officer, who didn't lift a finger.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated].

24             In paragraph 45 of your statement you said that a JNA officer got

25     onto one of the buses at one point, and when he got on the bus everybody

Page 2793

 1     went quiet.  When you said "quiet," do you also mean the people around

 2     the buses -- look up that paragraph if you will.

 3        A.   I understand your question.  I didn't mean that the crowd outside

 4     suddenly went silent, but those on the bus because they were waiting to

 5     see whom he would call out.  And he also looked for Dr. Emedi,

 6     Dr. Farkas, Dr. Kucjanovic [phoen], journalist Esterajher, and some other

 7     people.  Some prominent people from Vukovar, he wanted us to tell him

 8     whether we knew where those people were.

 9        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   I believe you also mentioned Sinisa Glavasevic among them?

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted).  He was

18     lightly wounded somewhere around his ear or his nose.  That was the last

19     time I saw him.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We will have to redact a few lines there in 60,

21     5, 6, 7, and 8, or something or thereabouts, Mr. Registrar.  Thank you.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you tell me whether that officer was also looking for

24     Sinisa among the others?

25        A.   He did not look for Sinisa Glavasevic, just the other people I

Page 2794

 1     mentioned.  They were all in the same profession except for

 2     Mr. Esterajher, who was a reporter for the Vukovar Radio.  All the others

 3     were doctors.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please, Mr. Zivanovic.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] In paragraph 46 I see that in addition to all

 9     these other names you also mention Sinisa Glavasevic.  Is that a mistake?

10        A.   Perhaps.  You see, that was 20 years ago.  It could be an error,

11     but it's possible also that he was looking for him too.  I'm certain

12     about the others but I'm no longer certain about Sinisa Glavasevic.

13        Q.   Can you tell us how long did you stay at the barracks?  How long

14     did the bus you were on stay at the barracks and how long was it before

15     you moved to the other bus?

16        A.   About half an hour, no more than 45 minutes, because as soon as

17     we arrived that crowd gathered who threatened us with knives, et cetera.

18     Then this official came, or officer, Mrksic, Radic, I can't remember who

19     it was because I didn't know these people then.  He called out names.  It

20     was very quiet.  And everyone would move as soon as they got called out

21     to the other buses.  And the troops made a gauntlet.  They had pieces of

22     wood, clubs, metal pipes, et cetera, and they hit us with whatever they

23     could.

24        Q.   In paragraph 51 of your statement you mentioned that from the bus

25     in which you arrived a total of 25 people got out.  You say that some

Page 2795

 1     others remained on the bus and you give us their names.  Now, let's clear

 2     this up.  These people whom you name, are those the ones who stayed or

 3     the ones who moved with you to the other bus?

 4        A.   When we got there with that list from the hospital, we were not

 5     sure, as I said before, that we were going to be released.  We thought

 6     that Serb employees of the hospital would have to guarantee for us that

 7     we didn't have any weapons, whereas those people who remained, there were

 8     two employees of the hospital, Marko Vlaho and Mirko Vlaho, and the rest

 9     were not employees of the hospital.  Marko Vlaho and the other man, I

10     have a mind freeze now, those two men named Vlaho, they were employees of

11     the hospital.  But when the war began, since we had Serb drivers who left

12     their jobs, needed to be replaced and they came.  And nobody could give

13     guarantees for them because the other staff of the hospital could not

14     provide guarantees for them.  That's why they stayed behind and they

15     ended up at Ovcara.

16        Q.   I believe that we have just spoken at cross-purposes.  I meant

17     the events at the barracks because I believe that paragraph 51 of your

18     statement refers to that.  You can take a look.  And that's the time when

19     you arrived to the barracks on the buses and you were transferred onto a

20     different bus.  I believe that that's where you were transferred to a

21     different bus, a total of 25 people who would later on be returned to the

22     hospital.  I'm interested in the names that you mentioned in

23     paragraph 51.  Did those people remain on the bus that brought you to the

24     barracks or were they transferred together with you to the other bus that

25     would return to the hospital?

Page 2796

 1        A.   I apologise.  I was looking at the transcript and I was not

 2     listening to you.  Can you please repeat your question.

 3        Q.   Let us look at paragraph 51 of your statement.  You say that a

 4     total of 25 people were taken off the bus.  You're talking about the bus

 5     that arrived from the Vukovar Hospital and it reached the barracks and

 6     you were among those 25 people.  Did I understand you correctly?

 7        A.   No, you did not.  There were around 25 people who were taken from

 8     all the buses and put onto one bus.  We were taken to the hospital.  The

 9     Serbian staff of the hospital had to provide guarantees that we had not

10     been carrying weapons.

11        Q.   In other words, in paragraph 51 you mentioned the names of the

12     people.  Did those people remain on the bus from which you were taken

13     out?

14        A.   Jozo Adzaga remained, Miroslav Vlaho, and the other Vlaho whose

15     first name was Mato.  And let's see who else.  Another man whom I didn't

16     know, I didn't know his name, I know that he had worked at the Jugopetrol

17     company before the war and that when he was on the bus together with us,

18     when we reached the hospital he was accused of having killed Jovo Rakica,

19     who was a well-known tradesman in Vukovar, and he was among those who

20     were then taken back.

21        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I will no longer insist on any further explanations.  You

Page 2797

 1     mentioned a name [as interpreted] whose nickname was Bulidza.  That's in

 2     paragraph 54 of your statement.  Was he on the bus which took you from

 3     the barracks to the hospital?

 4        A.   Yes.  That Bulidza was a staff member at the hospital before the

 5     war.  He was a butcher in the kitchen.

 6        Q.   And now could you please tell us something about -- you said in

 7     paragraphs 55 through 63.  You described the return to the Vukovar

 8     Hospital, the journey to the hospital itself.  And in paragraph 57 you

 9     mention Major Sljivancanin.  Was he there when the bus arrived from the

10     barracks to the hospital?

11        A.   Yes, he was.  He was in the hospital all that time, for as long

12     as the convoy did not depart.  He was the person in charge.  He was the

13     one who said:  This one can go.  If somebody guaranteed for a certain

14     person, then he would be let out from the bus and allowed to go to

15     Ivo Lola Ribar Street, where the buses were forming the convoy.  There

16     were some ten ambulances, or perhaps even 15 ambulances, that transferred

17     seriously wounded.  There was staff members there.  I don't know how many

18     buses were there.  I joined them at the end of the day.  There was also

19     the International Red Cross there and the international community

20     escorts.

21        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What was the time of day when the separation took place, when

Page 2798

 1     people were separated into two different convoys, the one that stayed

 2     behind and then, I suppose, was taken towards Ovcara and the other that

 3     you joined?  What was the time of day when that separation into two

 4     convoys took place?

 5        A.   We were returned -- you asked me about the time when we left.

 6     That was between 10.00 and 11.00.  We stayed there around half an hour,

 7     up to 45 minutes, then we returned.  Some individuals got off.

 8     Sljivancanin would approve who could leave, who could not, based on

 9     guarantees, and that may have taken no longer than an hour.  Then we

10     crossed to the other side, to Ivo Lola Ribar Street, but the convoy did

11     not depart straight away.  I don't know what it was waiting for.  It

12     probably departed perhaps an hour to an hour and a half after all of

13     those developments.

14        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You're now talking about the convoy that you joined, the convoy

18     that would later go to Sremska Mitrovica; right?

19        A.   Precisely.

20        Q.   Tell me this:  Could you see what was going on with the other

21     convoy in which some people stayed, did it depart about the same time you

22     did or earlier?

23        A.   No, we could not see them because we were on a different side of

24     the street and we were on a different side of the hospital.

25        Q.   Just one more thing that I would like to clarify and it concerns

Page 2799

 1     the shelling that I already asked you about, that was one of my first

 2     questions.  Could you please tell me, how long did shelling last?  How

 3     many days, how many weeks or months?  You spoke about the shelling of the

 4     hospital and you said about 2.000 shells fell on the hospital on a daily

 5     basis.

 6        A.   That was in the month of August.  I don't know on what date it

 7     started and it lasted until the fall of Vukovar.  It was uninterrupted.

 8     During the night it was not so frequent.  From 11.00 in the evening until

 9     5.00 or 6.00 in the morning shells did not fall so frequently.  During

10     the day they were falling on the hospital non-stop, all the time.

11        Q.   I'm trying to do my math.  It arises from that that about

12     180.000 shells fell on the hospital.  If something like that had

13     happened, I don't know what would have remained of the hospital.

14        A.   Sir, you misunderstood me.  Even if shells were falling in the

15     centre of the city we could hear it in the hospital.  Thousands upon

16     thousands of shells fell on the hospital and in the entire city.  That

17     shelling was intermittent, it did not stop.  It was constant.

18        Q.   I may have not understood you properly.  I thought that you said

19     that 2.000 shells fell on the hospital every day.  It seems that you had

20     in mind the entire city, but it did have an impact on the hospital.  Is

21     that what you were saying?

22        A.   No.  I'm saying that at least a thousand shells fell on the

23     hospital every day.  In general terms, Vukovar was shelled for three

24     months without any interruptions, with some breaks from 11.00 in the

25     evening until 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning when shells did not fall


Page 2800

 1     constantly, although they did.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions for you.

 3        A.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             Re-direct.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  A couple of questions.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Gillett:

 8        Q.   Witness, firstly, at transcript page 53, line 16, you mentioned a

 9     term "fifth column," this is on the transcript.  Could you describe who

10     were the fifth column and what that term means when you use it?

11        A.   In the hospital those were Serb staff members.  We shared

12     whatever we had, cigarettes and everything else.  And when Vukovar and

13     the hospital fell, then those people, individuals of Serb ethnicity,

14     pointed their fingers at certain other staff members.  They pointed them

15     to Captain Sasa and Major Sljivancanin and laid accusations against them

16     for God knows what.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Second question:  In relation to these people, the

18     Vlahos, in paragraph 32 of your statement you referred to a Marko Vlaho

19     and you say he survived and lives in Zagreb.  Then at paragraph 58 you

20     refer to a Miroslav Vlaho and Mato, M-a-t-o, Vlaho, and you say that they

21     stayed on the bus at the hospital when you got off the bus.  So I'm

22     trying to establish, because on the transcript before it wasn't entirely

23     clear whether there were two or three Vlahos.

24        A.   There were three persons by the same name.  Marko Vlaho was the

25     oldest, he was Miroslav Vlaho's father.  The other Vlaho - what was his


Page 2801

 1     name? - was the oldest Vlaho's nephew.  They were both drivers.

 2     Marko Vlaho was the driver who was taken out on the night when

 3     Captain Sasa entered the hospital.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett, the way you phrased the question at

 5     67, 8, you say:

 6             "In relation to these people ..."

 7             When I go to the previous question I would think that this is

 8     about those Serb people referred to as the fifth column, but I think they

 9     are Croats, aren't they?

10             MR. GILLETT:  Indeed.  That was not my intention to link it to

11     the previous question.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. GILLETT:  And that was my final question on re-direct.  Thank

14     you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, I have a question for

18     you.  I'm referring to the transcript page 62, mainly page 62.  You spoke

19     about the buses who took the hospital staff from the Vukovar Hospital to

20     the barracks - that's the word in English, I believe.  And 25 people from

21     your bus returned from the barracks to the hospital because, according to

22     you, according to your testimony, there were some Serb employees who

23     could guarantee that those people, I believe that they were Croats, had

24     not been carrying weapons.

25             My question is this:  Are you saying that the only reason why a

Page 2802

 1     Croat member of hospital staff was taken to the barracks and then from

 2     there was returned to the hospital was a guarantee provided by a Serb

 3     member of hospital staff that that Croat had not been carrying arms?  Is

 4     that the only reason?  Was there any other reason?

 5        A.   Partly.  I don't think that you understood me properly.  First of

 6     all, those were hospital staff members who were returned because

 7     Major Sljivancanin received a list, and those were not all people from my

 8     bus.  They were gathered from all of the buses.  There were five or

 9     six buses.  The high-ranking military officer called our names and we

10     came from all the buses, some 25 or 30 of us.  And then when we arrived

11     in front of the hospital, then our colleagues, local Serbs, had to

12     guarantee that we had not been carrying arms.  That's how it happened.

13             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  I thank you.  Can we

14     say that, for example, if a Croat had a Serb wife that guarantees were

15     understood?  Was it automatic?  Could a Serbian wife guarantee that her

16     Croatian husband did not carry arms?

17        A.   Yes, it was automatic.  If the wife guaranteed for him, he would

18     be set free.  But there were also Serbian doctors.  For example, a

19     pharmacist provided guarantees for me and for my brother.  She was a Serb

20     and she guaranteed for the two [as interpreted] of us.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you

22     for your clarifications regarding guarantees.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I noted just one error in transcript.  The

Page 2803

 1     witness said that three persons, the pharmacist guarantees for three

 2     persons, not for two.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Did you mention three persons?  Did you mention

 4     three persons, Mr. Witness?  Could you repeat, please?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mrs. Bosnic, who was the head of

 6     our hospital pharmacy, was a Serb.  We were on very good terms.  We

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted).  She

 9     guaranteed for the three of us.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Sorry about that, but this will have to be

11     redacted.  I should have asked for private session.

12             If that is all -- Mr. Gillett.

13             MR. GILLETT:  Just a quick technical matter to hopefully help

14     with the -- with the associated exhibits there was a video-clip and the

15     65 ter number should be 4798.2.  It was not one that we saw in court

16     today, but it was associated with the statement.  And also, there is a

17     list uploaded in e-court which links the numbers of the coloured photos

18     that are easier to see with the black and white photos which are attached

19     to the statement, and we've put that as 3258.2.  And so if they could be

20     admitted along with the statements, I believe it would assist when it

21     comes to analysing this material.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Isn't that a rather complicated way of getting

23     this straight, Mr. Gillett?  Wouldn't it be easier if you would tender

24     again the statement with coloured photos annexed to it rather than make

25     all these loops?


Page 2804

 1             MR. GILLETT:  We thought this was the easiest way to proceed

 2     because when the statement was taken, he signed copies that were in black

 3     and white, and these colour photographs are from the previous proceeding

 4     and easier to see.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So ordered.

 6             Mr. Witness, this brings your testimony to an end.  We thank you

 7     very much for your assistance.  You are now released as a witness, and

 8     once in closed session, the court usher will escort you out of court.

 9     Thank you very much.  We wish you a safe journey home.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.24 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of

22                           February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.