Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3277

 1                           Tuesday, 5 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

12             Mr. -- can we have the appearances.

13             Ms. Biersay.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Good morning, Your Honours.

15             Lisa Biersay on behalf of the Prosecution, and I am also with

16     Case Manager Indah Susanti and our intern Kay Leung.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell with Manal Tellawi

21     as Case Manager, thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

23             The witness may be brought in.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, may I take care of a housekeeping

25     matter while the witness is being brought in.


Page 3278

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Having reviewed Ms. Biersay's objection yesterday

 3     at page 3266, lines 9 to 15, we withdraw the tendering of D33.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you so much.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Lubin.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I remind you that you're still on your oath.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

11                           WITNESS:  JAMES LUBIN [Resumed]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell: [Continued]

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Lubin.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Mr. Lubin, yesterday we left off -- when we left we were

17     discussing the issue of your interpreters, and I could infer from your

18     answers, but nevertheless I wanted to make sure that this -- that my

19     understanding is correct, do I understand that you don't speak

20     Serbo-Croat?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And you said yesterday --

23             MR. GOSNELL:  And for my learned friend, it's transcript page

24     3273, lines 24 to 25.

25        Q.   You said and I quote:

Page 3279

 1             "All the interpreters were locally recruited Serbs.  There were

 2     no Croats available."

 3             Would you have preferred to have had Croat interpreters?

 4        A.   No, I would have preferred a balance.

 5        Q.   Now yesterday we were discussing prior to the discussion of

 6     interpreters the issue of your meeting with Dr. Hadzic on the 20th of

 7     April, 1992, concerning the expulsion on the night of the 18th to the

 8     19th from Dalj.

 9             Do you remember that discussion?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And the question I was asking you and I now come back to it, is,

12     how do you know that Dr. Mladen Hadzic was lying to you when he said that

13     he didn't have advance notice that this expulsion was going to occur?

14        A.   I think by facial expression.

15        Q.   That's it?

16        A.   That's it.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have Prosecution tab 88, which is

18     05922.

19        Q.   Now, sir, this relates to another discussion we were having

20     earlier yesterday concerning Beli Manastir.  And you recall we were

21     having a discussion about a notation that you had in one of your reports

22     in which you said that orders were not being followed below.

23             Do you recall that discussion from yesterday, which was at --

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   -- page 32, 33 of the transcript?

Page 3280

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Now, this is a document which was written five days before that

 3     notation, about orders not being followed below.  And it may provide some

 4     context to assist in understanding your comment.

 5             And this document is your report to Mr. Thornberry dated the 16th

 6     April, apparently at 11.00 a.m.

 7             Now, if we turn the page and go over to page 2, eight lines down

 8     from the top, you'll see there a passage that says -- well, let's start

 9     with five lines down:

10             "Re: Last night's urgent call from BelBat CIVPOL in Baranja,

11     (Beli Manastir) on report of 30 persons (mainly Croats) being threatened

12     physically.  Local Serbian vice-president of local government reacted

13     well to emergency.  He made several calls to his officials on scene and

14     reported to me at 2300 hours that situation under control.  Meeting all

15     auth. today and will travel to Baranja if nec."

16             Now, is it possible that when you said later that it was the

17     usual problem that orders were not being followed below, in light of this

18     notation, do you believe that it may have been the vice-president of the

19     local government who was issuing the orders that were not being followed

20     below?

21        A.   No, I didn't dissect who was not following orders.  I just report

22     what I was told.

23        Q.   Do you remember who this vice-president was, referred to here?

24        A.   We're talking about the vice-president of the administration in

25     Beli Manastir, yes?

Page 3281

 1        Q.   That's what the document appears to indicate, yes.

 2        A.   No, I can't recall his name.

 3        Q.   Can you recall any of the civilian officials who were part of the

 4     Beli Manastir local administration?

 5        A.   Their names?  If you ask me, I ... no, I couldn't.  Not after

 6     this length of time.

 7        Q.   And I realise it is a long period of time.  Do you have an

 8     impression in your mind, even if you can't remember individuals, whether

 9     any of these people were, in fact, men or women of goodwill who were not

10     happy about seeing Croats being threatened?

11        A.   That's very difficult.  I could only take their answers at face

12     value.

13        Q.   What does that mean?  When you say you can only take their

14     answers at face value, does that mean that they were at face value

15     appearing to be people of goodwill?

16        A.   What is it -- which period are we talking about?  Can you -- can

17     you?

18        Q.   Well, this document is written on the 16th of April.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then your second comment is on the 23rd of April.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So we're in that time-period.

23        A.   I think my opinion changed as the mission went on.  I always want

24     to be fair to people, and in the first instance in early meetings, I

25     assume that everything they say is in good faith.  But over a period of

Page 3282

 1     time, one builds up an impression that things are not what they seem.

 2     That there's something else going on behind the scenes.

 3             This was not just my impression.  This was the impression of

 4     everyone of my colleagues, certainly senior colleagues.  And when I say

 5     that, I mean the civilian police, the senior military, and our other

 6     civil affairs officers.

 7        Q.   Can you exclude that these officials in Beli Manastir are simply

 8     overwhelmed by the security situation and they're not able to create

 9     conditions that would induce people to remain in these areas?

10        A.   No, I can't accept that.  If you're an official and you're in

11     charge of people's safety and security, that's your job.  I expect you to

12     do that job.  We were a monitoring mission.  We were not an enforcement

13     mission.  And so we monitored everybody's action very carefully.

14        Q.   So you would say that the -- are you saying that the failure of

15     these individuals to create those conditions is the basis for saying that

16     you couldn't trust them?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And for you, it didn't matter so much who precisely was

19     responsible?  Ultimately you would find these senior officials at the

20     local government level to be responsible because, as far as you were

21     concerned, they were failing to discharge their functions?

22        A.   Well, that was my impression.

23        Q.   Which may not have been correct.  Is that what you're saying?

24        A.   No, I'm not saying -- I can't --

25        Q.   Well, sir, when you say -- the reason I followed up with that

Page 3283

 1     question because when you say that was my impression --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   -- you seem to be indicating some hesitation or doubt.  Or am I

 4     wrong about that?

 5        A.   No, I thought that was very quickly responded, yeah.  In other

 6     words, I'll say "yes," if that's what you want.

 7        Q.   Sir, it's really not what I want.  I'm trying to --

 8        A.   Come on.

 9        Q.   -- understand what your impressions are.  And you said that was

10     my impression, which gives me --

11        A.   I trust we speak the same language.  It's just another way of

12     saying yes.  I'm trying to be polite.

13        Q.   If we look at paragraph 52 of your statement --

14        A.   Okay.  Can you hold on a second, please?  Excuse me.  Apologies.

15     Repeat the paragraph again, please.

16        Q.   Paragraph 52.

17        A.   52, yes.  Yes.

18        Q.   Now this paragraph says:

19             "Again on 20 April the Serb Erdut government officials claimed

20     Croats wanted to leave because of fear of revenge."

21             Now, I simply want to clarify even though this paragraph appears

22     under a heading that refers to expulsions from Tenja, Marinci, and other

23     areas, isn't it correct - and I think now that we've had this long

24     discussion about your meeting on the 20th which concerned the Dalj

25     expulsions on the night of the 18th and 20th - isn't it correct that this


Page 3284

 1     paragraph 52 should be in the section above because it relates to the

 2     expulsions from Dalj?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  That's not a criticism, sir.  I simply wanted that to

 5     be clear.

 6        A.   Thank you.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05903, Prosecution tab 82.

 8             And if I may, I believe that I forgot to tender 65 ter 05922.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before we admit that one, Mr. Gosnell, just for

11     the record, we withdraw the exhibit number D33 from the previous one you

12     do not tender, so now this one is admitted and marked.

13             Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit D34.  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have 05903.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, if I may, I believe this is a document

18     that should be shown in closed session.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  That's correct.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3285











11 Pages 3285-3288 redacted. Private session.
















Page 3289

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE WITNESS:  41, sorry.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, thank you.

18             MR. GOSNELL:

19        Q.   And, in fact, the document now on the screen in front of you is

20     the document that you refer to in your statement.  And what we see here

21     down at point 2, second sentence:

22             "Another incident on 26/27 March had involved expulsion of 61

23     persons from Jovarnik and Nijemci.  This alleged expulsion in buses had

24     been done by JNA reservists."

25             Is it your recollection that that expulsion was -- involved JNA


Page 3290

 1     reservists?

 2        A.   I can't recall who was involved particularly at that time.  I --

 3     obviously the information came from somewhere because it is from Nambiar

 4     to Goulding, but I can't recall it.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we have 05925, please, which is Prosecution

 6     tab 90.  It's 05925, and that's Prosecution tab 90.

 7        Q.   Now I -- this is a report or -- well, a crypto fax to you from

 8     Mr. Thornberry dated the 17th of April.  And paragraph 1 reads:

 9             "Your cables, and those of the police during past two days

10     regarding the situation in Sector East, and in particular Beli Manastir,

11     have created much concern here, and I have this morning spoken with the

12     state committee in Belgrade asking that an urgent warning be conveyed to

13     the JNA, and that their full and immediate co-operation be secured."

14             Was it your understanding that your reports concerning the

15     security situation were being regularly conveyed to the JNA by

16     Mr. Thornberry?

17        A.   I can't answer that definitively, because I don't know what

18     Mr. Thornberry was doing.  As far as his contacts, I could only rely on

19     his communications to me and his conversations with me whenever he came

20     to the area.

21        Q.   Based on what you know, was that one of his functions?

22        A.   One of his functions to what?

23        Q.   Was that one of his responsibilities and activities?  Was he

24     informing the JNA regularly of the security situation in Sector East?

25        A.   I would think so.

Page 3291

 1        Q.   And were you preparing your reports with a view to ensuring that

 2     he could convey accurate information to them about that security

 3     situation?

 4        A.   Absolutely.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you about paragraph 3 which I'm puzzled

 6     about, and you may be too.  I'm not sure.  Paragraph 3 reads:

 7              "As for your own civilian staffing, we shall do our best as soon

 8     as we begin receiving personnel.  Meanwhile, your message and cable today

 9     regarding Abd-Elrazek have not been appreciated and this type of

10     communication will not occur again.  It is our task here to assess the

11     needs of this mission as a whole, at a time of great difficulty.

12     Abd-Elrazek will proceed as districted in my previous cable."

13             Now I haven't actually been able to find what Mr. Thornberry was

14     responding to.  I don't know what report he may have been responding to.

15     Do you recall this incident or episode?  Why was Mr. Thornberry

16     responding to you in this manner?

17        A.   Yes, I do recall this incident.

18             Mr. Abd-Elrazek was assigned to our area, and I posted him to

19     Beli Manastir to be in charge of that area.  You will recall yesterday

20     that the civilian authorities and possibly the police authorities in

21     Beli Manastir requested the presence of a civilian affairs co-ordinator.

22     They thought it was essential because communication between them and me

23     was very, very difficult.  And we needed instant communication.

24             Mr. Abd-Elrazek came to the area.  He immediately tackled the

25     situation very well.  His understanding was very good.  And he

Page 3292

 1     immediately became me in the area.  I was very impressed how he quickly

 2     assessed the situation and did exactly as I wanted him to do.

 3             Unfortunately, he was there only a matter of ten days or two

 4     weeks.  Mr. Thornberry suddenly, without consulting me, withdrew him.  I

 5     was very upset about this because, as you gather from all our

 6     conversations, my reports, I was running around like a so-and-so fly,

 7     trying to be everywhere at once.  I was literally the little boy plugging

 8     my finger in the holes of the dam everywhere, trying to prevent all these

 9     expulsions.  It was simply impossible.  I had no staff.

10             That's the reference towards personnel here.  We're trying to get

11     more personnel.  I should have had a staff of professionals, of at least

12     six people.  There were two of us.  One of whom was Mrs. Diane Lubin, my

13     wife.  That's not the best of staffing.

14             So when Mr. Abd-Elrazek was withdrawn, I sent Mr. Thornberry a

15     very polite note explaining the difficulties of the situation.

16     Unfortunately, Mr. Thornberry seems to think it was a personal slight to

17     him.  That was -- that's my opinion.  I know Mr. Thornberry's character,

18     and I thought he overreacted in this case, and, frankly, the officers in

19     the camp were shocked to see such a cable received from headquarters, an

20     open cable, on really a very personal matter.

21             So -- but the matter was revolved, I think, the next time I spoke

22     to him.  My only concern was success of my mission that was paramount.

23        Q.   And was Mr. Abd-Elrazek based in Beli Manastir throughout his

24     time in Sector East?

25        A.   Throughout his very short time there, yes, he was.


Page 3293

 1        Q.   He was never posted or stayed in Erdut?

 2        A.   No.  Except the first day he arrived, which I think you'll see in

 3     my report that I asked him to go to expulsion, or forced expulsion, and I

 4     think you'll find in my report somewhere he managed to hold up whatever

 5     it was - buses, I don't remember - at the time and come back to

 6     headquarters to get further orders from me.  We had no communication, we

 7     had no radios, no phones.  That's the only way he could come back.  By

 8     that, he was threatened at the scene of the expulsion.  When he came

 9     back, I gave him instructions what to do to try to persuade the people to

10     stay.  The usual things that we tried to do.  But by the time he'd

11     returned, they were gone.  They had been sent across the border into

12     Croatia proper.

13        Q.   So he spent one night in Erdut, is that your recollection?

14        A.   Yeah.  I can't recall exactly, one night, two nights, something

15     like that, yes.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

17        Q.   Mr. Lubin, thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

19             Ms. Biersay, re-direct?

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Lubin.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   And I take it you can hear me even though I'm a bit far away from

25     the mike?

Page 3294

 1        A.   I can hear you very well.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   I would like to ask you some clarification questions to follow up

 3     on some of the discussion that you had with Defence counsel yesterday.  I

 4     anticipate that if things go smoothly, perhaps it shouldn't take more

 5     than 20 minutes.  And essentially to -- this would be to cover four

 6     areas, just to give you some indication.

 7             So one would be yesterday you discussed the UN's position and in

 8     your statement you also discuss this, but yesterday you mentioned that

 9     the RSK was not recognised by the UN as being a legitimate entity.  So

10     that's one issue.

11             The second issue would be the discussion that you had with

12     Defence counsel yesterday about local Serb authorities saying that they

13     needed to go to the Knin authorities before proceeding further.

14             The third area would be based on Defence counsel's questions

15     about the role of the police in Sector East.

16             And, finally, I wanted to end with the -- addressing some issues

17     that were raised by Defence counsel regarding your meetings with the JNA

18     and specifically Biorcevic.  Just to give you the lay of the land.

19        A.   Okay.  Thank you.

20        Q.   Now, at -- and this is just for the record, Mr. Lubin.  I don't

21     expect you to know these page references.  But in -- on page 61 of the

22     transcript yesterday, you described at line 17 essentially, you said:

23             "The so-called local administration was not recognised as

24     official by the United Nations but, of course, we had to deal with them

25     because they were de facto."

Page 3295

 1             My question to you is:  What were you, other UNPROFOR components,

 2     and other UN entities given by way of protocol about how to handle the

 3     whole issue of the RSK government, which the UN did not recognise?

 4        A.   Yes.  As a protocol which is understood in all UN missions, that

 5     the UN never recognises any authority which has taken territory by force.

 6     Any even interim authority established in the such territory is not

 7     recognised by the UN, but for practical purposes, we have to deal with it

 8     on a day-to-day basis.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd like to, at this time, turning to tab 15, which

10     is 65 ter number 5157, and I believe it's been admitted as Exhibit

11     P1372.1351.  Thank you for making that bigger.

12        Q.   Now in -- if I could direct -- first of all, this is from you to

13     Mr. Thornberry and it's a sitrep report dated 14 May 1992.  And if I

14     could direct your attention to the second paragraph, and you'll see that

15     you're discussing the three-point proposal that you had with certain

16     conditions.  And this is also described in your statement.

17             What I'd like to direct your attention is the last sentence:

18             "This proposal would be taken by Erdut government officials to

19     the next 'Republic of Krajina' parliament session on 18 May in Knin.  A

20     speedy decision was promised."

21             Could you describe for us what republic of Krajina is in

22     quotation marks?

23        A.   Because as I explained previously, it was not an official entity

24     as far as the United Nations is concerned.  I could have just as well

25     said the so-called republic of Krajina and not included it in quote

Page 3296

 1     marks.

 2        Q.   And is that the same reason it also appear in quotation marks in

 3     paragraph 3?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if I could please ask for tab 16 which is

 6     now Exhibit P1373.1351.

 7        Q.   Did you interrupt you, Mr. Lubin?

 8        A.   Excuse me, can I just make a further comment on the --

 9        Q.   Yes, please.

10        A.   -- on that.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  We'll just keep the document for now.

12        Q.   Yes, please.

13        A.   Yes.  Referring to the previous document, paragraph 2.

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   This three-point proposal was very, very important as far as I

16     was concerned.  I don't recall the so-called local officials ever

17     agreeing to this.  I don't recall a follow-up.  They said it wouldn't be

18     referred to Knin but I -- to the best of my memory, it was just forgotten

19     on their part, but it certainly wasn't forgotten on my part.  Thank you.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  And now, please, if we could go to tab 16.  And if

21     I have my -- the correct information, it's Exhibit P1373.1351.  And if we

22     could enlarge it just a bit.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now, this, again, is dated 14 May 1992.  It's from you to

24     Thornberry:

25             "Please find attached a self-explanatory letter addressed to


Page 3297

 1     Dragan Sabljakovic, vice-president of the government of the 'Government

 2     of the Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.'"

 3             And why was that quoted?

 4        A.   Again that would be the local de facto government, not officially

 5     recognised by the United Nations.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time if we could briefly go into private

 7     session to discuss a document under seal.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 9                           [Private session]

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated] thank you.

22             MS. BIERSAY:

23        Q.   Now, you were asked some questions about 65 ter number 5922

24     today.  I don't believe it was tendered by the Defence.  Let me check.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That's exhibit --


Page 3300

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  It was admitted as D34, is that correct?  If we

 2     could have that exhibit, please, on the screen.

 3             And if we could go to the -- the bottom of that page,

 4     highlighting paragraph 4.  This is dated 16 April 1992.  It's from you to

 5     Thornberry.  And you're describing some proposals that were made.  And

 6     you say in paragraph 4:

 7             "This proposal conveyed to Serbian auth..."

 8             Does that mean authorities, Serbian authorities?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.    "... later accepted in prin."

11             What does prin mean?

12        A.   In principle.  Accepted in principle.

13        Q.   And what does the next notation mean?

14        A.   With some reservations.

15        Q.   "Serbian authorities prefer UNPROFOR to secure UNPA prior to any

16     such meetings."

17        A.   [Overlapping speakers]...

18        Q.   And if we go to the next page, it starts --

19        A.   Could you tell me what -- sorry, Counsel, could you tell me what

20     we're talking about?  Ah, thank you.

21        Q.   So that the next page, it says:

22             "Matter will be taken to superiors in Knin for a decision, local

23     Serbian authorities" -- that is correct, "authorities"?

24        A.   Authorities, yes.  "Auth." is authorities, yes.

25        Q.   "... again requested to supply names of co-ordinators designated

Page 3301

 1     to implement monitoring plan.  Same answer, Knin and JNA approval first."

 2             Is this -- how does this match your description yesterday

 3     regarding the local Serb authorities' frequent reference to having to go

 4     to Knin for authorisation?

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  I think it would be appropriate for the witness to

 8     be -- to look at paragraphs 1 through 3 of the document before giving an

 9     answer to that question, because I believe that that provides important

10     context.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let me have a look.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  I have no problem with that.  If we could go to

13     page 1.

14             And, again, I point out that this is a document that was

15     discussed by counsel today.

16        A.   Okay.

17        Q.   Now if we could go to -- if we could get back to my question

18     which is focussed on the last sentence, the last word on the first page,

19     which says "matter."

20             And it continues to the second page here:

21             "The matter will be taken to superiors in Knin for decision.

22     Local Serbian authorities again requested to supply names of

23     co-ordinators designated to implement monitoring plan.  Same answer: Knin

24     and JNA approval first."

25             First of all, could you explain what you meant by that last line

Page 3302

 1     "same answer: Knin and JNA approval first."

 2        A.   Well, these were the answers of -- at our meetings with the local

 3     authority, more or less, every time we met them.  We never got a clear

 4     decision on anything.  They had to refer it to Knin.  And to put it

 5     simply, I think they were on a string, and it was being pulled by a

 6     higher authority.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, I'm finished with this exhibit.

 8     Thank you.

 9             And if we could go back to P1372.1351.  And just along this

10     point, if we could go back to paragraph 2 and just highlight the last --

11     the last part again.

12        Q.   And we spoke previously about the quotation mark.  And, here, am

13     I right to -- when I read:

14             "Regarding the three-point proposal, this proposal will be taken

15     by Erdut government officials to the next 'Republic of Krajina'

16     parliament session of 18 May in Knin."

17             Did I read that correctly?  And is that consistent with your

18     observation that you just described to the Trial Chamber?

19        A.   Yes, it is consistent.  This happened all the time, that -- that

20     that would be brought up.  They couldn't act without consulting Knin or

21     without permission from Knin.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if we could turn to tab 18, which I believe

23     is now P1375.1351.  And while it's being brought up, it is from Mr. Lubin

24     to Mr. Thornberry, and it's dated 20 May 1992.

25        Q.   What I want to discuss is on page 2, but if you could briefly

Page 3303

 1     just look at this first page to get familiar with the contents.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could maybe now move to the second page?

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could now move to the second page, please.

 5        Q.   And specifically I am interested in paragraph 4:

 6             "Local authorities Erdut just returned from a parliamentary

 7     session in Knin.  Made the usual statements regarding these latest

 8     expulsions."

 9             Did I read that correctly?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And could you describe to the Trial Chamber what is meant "made

12     the usual statements regarding the latest expulsions," if you recall.

13        A.   It's very difficult to remember precisely, but I think the gist

14     of it would have been they were not responsible.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if we could move to tab 21, which I believe

17     has been admitted as P1378.1351.  And this is from Thornberry to Nambiar,

18     May 1992.  And the subject is:  "Developments in Sector East."  These are

19     some reports pertaining to that issue.

20             And if we could go to the second page.  The third page, please.

21     And if we could just scroll down to the bottom of that page to see the

22     drafter box.

23        Q.   Mr. Lubin, who is listed as the drafter of this document?

24        A.   Myself.

25        Q.   And the releasing officer?

Page 3304

 1        A.   The sector command, Colonel Khromchenkov.

 2        Q.   Now, paragraph 1 reads:

 3             "Expulsions at Miklusevci on 18 May were carried out by persons

 4     from the Territorial Defence, local police in civilian clothes, and other

 5     armed persons after a night of terrorising the houses by gun-fire and

 6     grenades."

 7             How would you have received that information?

 8        A.   Probably through our civilian police by RusBat - in other words,

 9     the Russian Battalion - possibly myself.  I can't remember this

10     particular expulsion in detail, but I must have had very, very good

11     reasons for putting that down.  I would think probably the civilian

12     police and members of the Russian Battalion.

13        Q.   Now, you have described the civilian police.  Based on what you

14     know did they work closely, or however you'd like to categorise it, with

15     the local police?

16        A.   That was their job.  They were to monitor every action of the

17     local police by accompanying them at all times.  I think there was

18     resistance to this criteria from the local police, but -- in other words,

19     the civilian police were in no position to force themselves onto the

20     local police, but that was their job, to stay as close as they could to

21     them to make sure that the police did not carry out any discriminatory

22     activities, and I would think that the civilian police were very -- very

23     close in this particular expulsion.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Now, if we could turn to tab 17 which has been

25     admitted as P1374.1351.

Page 3305

 1        Q.   And this is described in your statement.  It is an investigation

 2     filed regarding expulsions from the villages of Cakovci, Ceric,

 3     Miklusevci on 19 May 1992.  And it is been signed by Thornberry.  And at

 4     the end of that page, you see reference made to the chief of police,

 5     Vukovar.

 6             Was it your understanding that this file was being sent to the

 7     chief of police, Vukovar?

 8        A.   Yes.  That was a common practice, yes.  They were --

 9        Q.   What was common practice?

10        A.   We would ensure that the local authorities knew immediately of

11     every incident in as much detail -- in as much detailed information as

12     could be gathered at the time.  They -- our civilian police were

13     extremely efficient in that manner.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could now turn to page 2 of that

15     investigative file.

16        Q.   That is -- that letter is:  "Dear Dr. Jovic...," and Jovic is

17     described at the bottom as President Borisav Jovic.

18             And in the first paragraph, perhaps the third sentence.  Now this

19     is a letter to Dr. Jovic by Mr. Thornberry conveying to him the

20     prosecution dossiers.  And then it reads:

21             "Even worse, UNPROFOR's commissioner of police has concluded that

22     there is a convincing evidence of serious criminality on the part of the

23     number of local officials.  These include members of the same police

24     forces which are charged with protecting the inhabitants of Sector East

25     under the law."

Page 3306

 1             Was that consistent or inconsistent with the information that you

 2     received at the time when you were in the sector?

 3        A.   That is consistent with the information that I received.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, I would now ask for tab 39, which I

 5     understand has been admitted as P1396.1351.

 6        Q.   You described during your cross-examination that you went on -- I

 7     believe you said two reconnaissance missions in March of 1992.  Is that

 8     accurate?

 9        A.   That's -- that's accurate.  This appears to be the second

10     reconnaissance mission.

11        Q.   And these are described in your -- in your statement, and -- as

12     being notes from the reconnaissance mission.  Is that accurate?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, if I could ask that we go to page 9 of this document, you

15     were asked some questions yesterday about your meetings with

16     General Biorcevic.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the notes from a

19     meeting held on 18 March of 1992.  And it lists the location as the ship

20     on the Danube, Dalje.

21             Could you put that in context for the Trial Chamber when you say

22     that the ship on the -- on the Danube.  What does that mean?

23        A.   Well, this was a war ship belonging to the Yugoslav army/navy,

24     whatever, which was tethered on the Danube, and General Biorcevic used

25     that as his headquarters.

Page 3307

 1        Q.   Now, directing your attention to the list of attendees there,

 2     there's Dr. Hadzic, Mladen listed as vice-president of Erdut district as

 3     well as General Biorcevic, JNA commander of the Novi Sad area; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Now going to the second-to-last paragraph:

 7             "Mr. Lubin also thanked the General and Dr. Hadzic for their

 8     co-operation and said that troops must be deployed as soon as possible."

 9             So based on this document, it appears that Dr. Mladen Hadzic was

10     also present for one of your meetings with JNA General Biorcevic; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  And, finally, if we could move to tab 33, which I

14     believe has been admitted as P1390.1351.

15        Q.   If you could just glance at that page to situate yourself in the

16     document which is dated 22 April 1992 and drafted by you and released by

17     you.  What I intend to ask you about is on the second page, so if you

18     could tell me when you're satisfied with your review.

19        A.   Okay.

20        Q.   Now, if we could go to the second page, focussing on the bottom

21     third of that page.  And if you -- if can you scan the left side until

22     you get to the name Jovic.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, that -- those lines refer to the letter of protest to Jovic:

25             "My letter to Erdut president, Dr. Hadzic ..."


Page 3308

 1             Could you tell us if the letter to this president, Dr. Hadzic, is

 2     the same Hadzic that was referenced in the previous exhibit as meeting

 3     with General Biorcevic?

 4        A.   Yes, it was.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

 7             Mr. Lubin -- no, I -- just one more thing.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have one question for you, Mr. Lubin.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  At page 18, line 7 of the yesterday's transcript,

12     you said:

13             "They," with which you meant your civilian police colleagues,

14     "would always comment to me that so-and-so was not a policeman because

15     they knew nothing about basic police procedures.  They gave me the

16     impression that they'd either be -- been former military men or some kind

17     of guard who had been hurriedly converted to so-called policemen."

18             Could you explain on -- could you expand on what former military

19     men of some kind or some kind of guards who had been hurriedly converted

20     to so-called policemen?

21             What do you mean by "who had been hurriedly converted into

22     so-called policemen"?

23        A.   Well, they -- one of our aims under the Security Council

24     resolution and the Vance Plan was to restore the police to the ethnic

25     balance it had had before the conflict.  I can't give you percentages of

Page 3309

 1     that balance, but there were a considerable number of Croats in that

 2     police.  And there were no Croats available anymore.  The Croat policemen

 3     seem to have just disappeared.  So they must have had gaps in the ranks

 4     of the local police forces, and we had the impression that they'd been

 5     filled by people who were just not qualified as policemen.

 6             There -- I relied on this observation from my police colleagues

 7     who are used to dealing with professional police, and this was a -- a

 8     very common comment that they made to me.  They would despair.  On basic

 9     police procedures, they didn't expand on the details.  I'm not familiar

10     with the police procedure, but I relied on them, and that was there their

11     comment, that there were so many police who simply didn't know what their

12     real function should be with regard to fairness and protecting the local

13     people from intimidation.

14             That is also contained in the Security Council resolution and the

15     Vance Plan, that our police were there to monitor the local police to

16     make sure that the local population was not intimidated.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much for that, Mr. Lubin.

18             If there are no other questions, this brings an end to your

19     testimony before the Tribunal, Mr. Lubin.  We thank you very much for

20     assisting this Trial Chamber.  You -- you're now released as a witness.

21     The court usher will escort you out of court, and we wish you a safe

22     journey home.

23             Thank you very much.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           [The witness withdrew]


Page 3310

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, your next witness is a protected

 2     one?

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Indeed, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the -- we'll take the break now and this will

 5     give plenty of time to arrange for your next witness, and we will come

 6     back at 11.00.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Demirdjian.  I suppose we can

12     call the next witness.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  Good morning, Your Honours.  There's been

14     a little change in the shift.  I'm accompanied now by Doug Stringer, as

15     well as our legal intern, Robert Goodwin.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             The next witness can be brought in.

18             Yes, closed session, please.  Sorry.

19                           [Closed session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 3311

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             Good morning, Mr. Witness.  First of all, can you hear me in a

 6     language you understand?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.  I can.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 9             As you have protective measures - pseudonym and voice and face

10     distortion - we will only refer to you as "Mr. Witness."  We will not

11     mention your name in -- during these hearings.

12             Mr. Demirdjian, I suppose you have a pseudonym sheet?

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  It is 65 ter 6391.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Witness, you see it -- the pseudonym sheet in front of you on

16     the screen.  Can you tell us whether your name and -- first name and last

17     name and date of birth are correct on that sheet?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they are correct.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             You are about to make the solemn declaration, Mr. Witness, by

21     which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point out

22     to that you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury should you give

23     untruthful information to the Tribunal.  Would you now please make the

24     solemn declaration?

25             The court usher will give you the text of it.


Page 3312

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  GH-080

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated

 6     [Microphone not activated].

 7             Thank you very much.

 8             Mr. Demirdjian, your witness.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

11        Q.   Good morning, sir.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   As the Judge indicated, as a result of your protective measures I

14     will call you "witness" or "sir" to protect your identity.

15             First of all, could you explain to the Chamber a little bit your

16     background.  Is it correct to say that you were born in Vukovar?

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  Mr. Demirdjian, we will admit the -- the

18     pseudonym sheet into evidence.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  [Microphone not activated]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And give it exhibit number.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1397, admitted under

22     seal.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Sir, should I repeat the question?

Page 3313

 1        A.   There's no need.  I was born in Vukovar.

 2        Q.   And is it correct that you were also educated in Vukovar?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4        Q.   And you completed your military service in 1984; is that right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And can you tell the Court what type of training did you receive

 7     as part of your military service?

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, you have a problem?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not receiving interpretation.

12     I can hear the witness clearly, but I am not receiving interpretation.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can the accused hear this?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The volume is very soft.  But if

15     I -- even if I put the volume up, I can't hear interpretation.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The Registrar is looking into it, Mr. Hadzic.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Technician is coming, so we'll wait for a second.

20             We can give it a try, Mr. Demirdjian.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             And for the next couple of questions, Your Honours, could we go

23     into private session.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

25                           [Private session]


Page 3314











11 Page 3314 redacted. Private session.















Page 3315

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

14     you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what was the social and political situation

18     in Vukovar in early 1991?

19        A.   The social situation was tense in view of the circumstances

20     leading up to the establishment of the Croatian state.  There were

21     socio-political organisations that opposed the state of play as it

22     emerged.

23        Q.   And what were these socio-political organisations that opposed

24     the state as it emerged?

25        A.   There were -- there was the former League of Communists.  There


Page 3316

 1     was the newly established Croatian Democratic Community and the Serbian

 2     Democratic Party, perhaps some others, even, whom I didn't know of, which

 3     brought change to the various relations existing in that region,

 4     specifically in Croatia.

 5        Q.   Now, what was the security situation like in Vukovar in the first

 6     part of 1991?

 7        A.   It deteriorated slowly, especially at night, when there were

 8     explosions.  In day-time, there were various acts of violence in bars and

 9     restaurants.  And slowly this led to clashes in Borovo Naselje and

10     Borovo Selo.

11        Q.   Now, who, if anyone, was being targeted by these acts of

12     violence?

13        A.   It's a bit difficult to explain.  Obviously the target was the

14     constitutional order of the newly established Croatian system.

15        Q.   My question may have not been specific enough.  Were you aware of

16     who -- which individuals were being targeted?

17        A.   I'm not sure that individuals were targeted.  It was all done in

18     an organised fashion because especially in the month of May a group of

19     MUP members was attacked while performing their duty.

20        Q.   And could you tell the Court at that time in 1991, which part of

21     town did you live in?

22        A.   Well, let's say in the broader centre of town.

23        Q.   Now you told us earlier that there were newly established

24     political parties.  Were you aware of how the Serbian ethnic community

25     was being organised in Vukovar?

Page 3317

 1        A.   I'm not that familiar with that.

 2        Q.   Were you aware of any of their leading figures at the time?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Now, did there come a time, sir, when your wife and children left

 5     Vukovar?

 6        A.   Yes.  They left when the shelling started of the general central

 7     area of Vukovar.

 8        Q.   Could you tell the Court when they left.

 9        A.   It was on the 7th of August that they left by bus to the seaside.

10     It was all done in an organised fashion.

11        Q.   Now, you told the Court that the shelling started of the general

12     central area of Vukovar.  Were you able to assess from which location the

13     shell -- the shelling originated?

14        A.   It was difficult to assess the direction from which it came.  The

15     shells landed at an angle which could not be established without

16     expertise.  The conclusion was that the shelling originated from the

17     immediate vicinity of the town.

18        Q.   And when you say that the conclusion, when you're referring to

19     the conclusion, what conclusion are you referring to?  What -- who came

20     to that conclusion?

21        A.   It was a personal conclusion on the part of everyone who was

22     thinking about the direction from which the shells came.  Since there was

23     fighting every night between Borovo Naselje and Borovo Selo, it is quite

24     possible that the shelling came from there.  However, the possibility

25     that it came from across the Danube or other sites around the town cannot

Page 3318

 1     be ruled out.

 2        Q.   And you mentioned a moment ago that when your family left it was

 3     organised.  Could you tell the Court who organised the -- their

 4     departure?

 5        A.   The departure to the so-called vacation was organised by the HDZ.

 6        Q.   Returning now to the issue of the shelling, could you tell the

 7     Court what -- what buildings or what locations were the target of the

 8     shelling?

 9        A.   I'm aware of two impacts in the general central area of town.

10     One was closer to the river, close to the stadium; and the other was in a

11     location called Becarski Kriz, close to the vocational school there.

12        Q.   Now we will display this on a map at a later stage.

13             But could you tell us, sir, whether your family returned after

14     they left on the 7th of August?

15        A.   No.  They never returned.  The return was planned for the 25th of

16     August.  Their convoy, or column, was stopped in Kutina and they never

17     made it back.

18        Q.   Just for general geographical purposes, could you explain to us

19     where Kutina is, roughly?

20        A.   Kutina is 200 kilometres away from Vukovar or 100 kilometres away

21     from Zagreb.

22        Q.   And why was their convoy stopped?

23        A.   Precisely for the reasons of frequent shelling and all-out

24     fighting that broke out against Vukovar and Croatia as a whole.

25        Q.   And did there -- did there come a time where this all-out

Page 3319

 1     fighting started?

 2        A.   In this way, it was merely continued.  It intensified because the

 3     shelling lasted throughout that time, all the time.

 4        Q.   And just -- just to be clear, when you're saying "... throughout

 5     that time, all the time," as of when would you say that this all-out

 6     conflict started?  [Microphone not activated]... have a specific date in

 7     mind?

 8        A.   It is precisely on this day, the 25th, that the all-out attack

 9     began, which meant the shelling of the entire town systematically and

10     with no restrictions, and this went on non-stop, with perhaps a couple of

11     interruptions, until the fall of Vukovar.

12        Q.   Now in response to this was anything done in the -- in -- in

13     Vukovar town itself, in response to this shelling?

14        A.   Yes, there was a response.  The defence system which was further

15     reinforced through mobilisation and recruitment of all the forces that

16     were able to resist the attack.

17        Q.   And did you join this defence system?

18        A.   Yes, I did join the defence.

19        Q.   And could you tell the Court when you joined the defence?

20        A.   I joined the defence in mid-September, after a meeting had been

21     organised where tasks were assigned.

22        Q.   And could you tell the Court who organised the meeting and where

23     it took place.

24        A.   The initiative for that meeting came from Jastreb, the defence

25     commander of Vukovar, and his assistant, that is to say, with the

Page 3320

 1     presence of the secretary for the people's defence of the town of

 2     Vukovar.

 3        Q.   And at the time, did the town defence have a name as a unit?

 4        A.   I believe it was a time [as interpreted] of the Home Guards

 5     Corps, the ZNG.

 6        Q.   Can you give us an estimate - and I'm not looking for specific

 7     numbers - but an estimate of the number of town defenders in Vukovar?

 8        A.   I could not comment on that because I'm not really qualified.  I

 9     mean, I did not have an insight into the structure and numbers of the

10     defenders, but it was certainly not below 1.000.

11        Q.   Now, could you describe to the Court the town defence.  In terms

12     of their appearance, the appearance of their fighters, their clothing,

13     and weaponry.

14        A.   The weapons were mainly light, side-arms and infantry weapons

15     with very little light artillery.  They were badly armed.  Some men had

16     only hunting rifles.  And it was impossible to provide appropriate

17     clothing, not as prescribed by the military organisation.

18        Q.   Now, when you joined the town defence in mid-September, could you

19     tell the Court what was the situation in relation to access to water and

20     electricity?

21        A.   Water and power supply came under threat already in August.  And

22     after that, power supply and water supply and telecommunications were cut

23     off completely.  People got water mainly from the few wells available.

24        Q.   And how did they access these wells?  Perhaps you could tell us

25     also about the number of wells that were in town.

Page 3321

 1        A.   I can hardly tell you how many wells there were.  I know only

 2     about a few.  Access to them was very difficult because the area was

 3     usually subjected to strong artillery fire.

 4        Q.   When you say that the area was under strong artillery fire, are

 5     you talking about the -- the general area or -- could you be more

 6     specific?

 7        A.   Well, the area of the wells were particularly targeted by shells.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, okay.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  And may we move into private session.

25     Thank you.


Page 3322

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please, and redaction of ...

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 3323











11 Pages 3323-3326 redacted. Private session.
















Page 3327

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 7        Q.   And did you recognise any other soldier in the hospital?

 8        A.   I recognised others but I can't remember their names, although I

 9     remember their faces.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I would like us to display now through Sanction

11     a video, which is 65 ter 4781.1.  Yes, can we play this.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this building?

14        A.   Yes.  That's the hospital in Vukovar, seen from

15     Gunduliceva Street.

16        Q.   Is that what it looked like on the day you arrived?

17        A.   Probably.

18        Q.   Okay.  Let's keep playing.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.

21        Q.   On that day, sir, could you tell us what happened to your

22     parents?

23        A.   I got separated from my parents.  They went with the civilians to

24     Sajmiste, the fair-grounds, whereas I went to the hospital expecting that

25     evacuation that was to include the -- the wounded.

Page 3328

 1        Q.   Can we go into private session for a short moment, please.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 3329

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

23        Q.   How many nights did you spend at the hospital?

24        A.   Only one.

25        Q.   And could you tell the Court what happened the following morning,


Page 3330

 1     on the 20th of November.

 2        A.   On the morning of the 20th of November, those of us who could

 3     walk were called out to the entranceway into the emergency ward of the

 4     hospital; in other words, the main entrance of the hospital.

 5        Q.   What time was this at?

 6        A.   To my recollection, at around 8.00 in the morning.

 7        Q.   Now, you said that "those of us who could walk ..."

 8             Who -- who told you to exit the hospital from the emergency ward?

 9        A.   The reserve soldiers told us to do that, i.e., those who had been

10     authorised by their command.  They called everyone to come out to the

11     main entrance into the hospital.  Meaning the prisoners.

12        Q.   Now, what happened when you exited the hospital?

13        A.   We were searched for weapons or anything else that could be

14     dangerous.  After having been searched, we were directed to the

15     Gunduliceva Street, towards the buses that were parked there.

16        Q.   Now you said that you were searched outside.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Perhaps we could display 65 ter 2877, please.

18     And if we could go to page 2, please.

19        Q.   Now, sir, do you recognise this building?

20        A.   Yes.  That's the hospital in Vukovar.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now, for Your Honours' information and the

22     Defence, these were pictures that were taken after the war, I believe in

23     1997.

24             For illustrative purposes, could I have the assistance of the

25     usher to help the witness marking this image.

Page 3331

 1        Q.   Now, sir, first of all, could you tell us in normal times, where

 2     was the main entrance of the hospital?  If you can mark that with the

 3     letter A.

 4        A.   It is on the other side, so it's not visible here.

 5        Q.   Very well.  And, now, could you tell us where the Danube is from

 6     this perspective?

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Very well.  Could you put the letter B there.

 9        A.   B?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   And can you indicate from which exit you -- you exited the

13     hospital on the morning of the 20th.

14        A.   Which letter should that be?

15        Q.   C.  Thank you.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Now, as you exited you told us that you were searched.  Where

18     were you searched exactly?

19        A.   Which letter?

20        Q.   D.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Could you tell us how long the search took.

23        A.   Relatively brief; ten to 15 minutes, not longer.

24        Q.   And after you were searched, could you perhaps show us where you

25     went to next.

Page 3332

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   For the record, you marked an arrow going down from the letter D.

 3     And what -- what do we see, or -- is there a street towards the bottom of

 4     that picture?

 5        A.   Yes.  Gunduliceva Street.

 6        Q.   Could you place the letter E as to where Gunduliceva Street is.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And could you, with an arrow, perhaps, indicate to us in which

 9     direction the buses were parked?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   And could you tell the Court how many buses you saw.

12        A.   As far as I remember, three to four.  Not more.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this image

14     with the markings.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 2 of the 65 ter document 2877 marked by the

17     witness shall be assigned Exhibit P1398.  Thank you.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now, sir, how many people were on your bus?

20        A.   Well, judging from the carrying capacity of the bus, about 50.

21        Q.   And, in fact, before getting to the buses, you said that you were

22     searched outside -- outside the hospital, in the back.  What was the --

23     the gender of the people ordered out?

24        A.   Predominantly male.

25        Q.   And what information, if any, were you given about the purpose

Page 3333

 1     of -- of loading the buses?

 2        A.   There was no explanation given.  We were only told where to go.

 3        Q.   On your bus, did you recognise any of the people amongst the

 4     roughly 50 people in your bus?

 5        A.   During the journey, I recognised some of them as Vukovar

 6     defenders.

 7        Q.   And do you recall their names?

 8        A.   Well, for instance Zeljko Jurela.

 9        Q.   Is this the only name you recall?

10        A.   I can also recall Damjan Samardzic.

11        Q.   Very well.  And is there anyone else you recall?

12        A.   I remember another person whose nickname was Kemo.

13        Q.   Very well.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, is this an appropriate time?  Or

15     do we have more time?

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We have four minutes left.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I'll carry on for four minutes then.

18        Q.   Sir, you told us that you remember a person by the nickname of

19     Kemo.  Do you know his full name?

20        A.   I didn't know his name at the time.  I can now tell you that the

21     nickname belongs to the person by the family name of Sajiti.

22        Q.   Okay.  And did you recognise anyone else on your bus?

23        A.   I don't remember anymore.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in -- you told us that there were 50 men on your

25     bus.  Was there anyone else besides the men who had been taken out of the


Page 3334

 1     hospital?

 2        A.   We're talking about the bus which carried 50 persons.  Of course,

 3     more than 50 had been taken out.  Fifty was the number of persons that

 4     could fit in a single bus.

 5        Q.   And on your specific bus, was there anyone else besides the

 6     prisoners?

 7        A.   The prisoners were accompanied by armed JNA soldiers, or

 8     reservists, whatever they were.

 9        Q.   How many of the -- of the JNA soldiers or reservists were there

10     on your bus?

11        A.   As far as I remember, there were two.  Plus the driver.

12        Q.   Could you tell the Court what these JNA soldiers or reservists

13     were wearing?

14        A.   The usual grey olive-green uniforms.

15        Q.   And were you able to tell where these soldiers were from?

16        A.   No.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we take the break now?

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we go into closed session, please.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3335

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Demirdjian, as soon as the blinds are up ...

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

19        Q.   Okay.  Sir, before we continue with this part of your story, I

20     would like to show you a video which had a difficulty with earlier in the

21     first part of your testimony.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And that is -- first of all, can we go into

23     private session for this one, please.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session.

25                           [Private session]


Page 3336











11 Pages 3336-3337 redacted. Private session.
















Page 3338

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Sir, going back to the buses.  You told us that you saw three or

 9     four buses.  Could you tell the Court, which bus did you board?

10        A.   I suppose it was the second or the third.

11        Q.   And can you tell the Court how did the boarding of the buses take

12     place?

13        A.   The boarding was spontaneous.  There was no special arrangement

14     to it, is what I mean.  Everybody boarded as they approached the area.

15        Q.   Now, did there come a time where the buses left the hospital?

16        A.   Yes, they were in front of the hospital.  When the people

17     boarded, the buses left the area.

18        Q.   Now, how much time had elapsed between the time you exited the

19     hospital and the time the buses left?

20        A.   Not longer than half an hour.

21        Q.   Now, can you tell the Judges where the buses headed to.

22        A.   The buses turned back and headed for the centre of town.

23        Q.   And could you tell us about the rest of the route.

24        A.   They were headed in the direction of Sajmiste.  In other words,

25     the barracks.


Page 3339

 1        Q.   And how long was the -- the ride from the hospital to the

 2     barracks?

 3        A.   It was a short ride; ten to 15 minutes max.

 4        Q.   Now, what happened when the buses reached the barracks in

 5     Sajmiste?

 6        A.   The buses entered the compound of the barracks and stopped in the

 7     central area.

 8        Q.   And, now, at this time, how many buses were there at the

 9     barracks?

10        A.   As I said, there were three or four of them.  Those were the

11     buses that were in front of the hospital.  They entered the barracks

12     compound as a group, together.

13        Q.   Now, when the buses arrived at the hospital [sic], was there

14     anyone present at the JNA barracks?

15        A.   I don't understand the question.  Can you repeat it, please.

16        Q.   Yes.  When the buses entered the compound of the JNA barracks,

17     was there anyone else there.

18        A.   There were many reservists and soldiers within the compound of

19     the barracks.  They were all there.

20        Q.   And what were these reservists and soldiers doing in the

21     compound?

22        A.   I don't know exactly what they were doing.  At any rate, there

23     was a crowd, a commotion.  Some of them approached the buses.  Others

24     threatened.  Still, others were disinterested.  It depended on what the

25     individual's attitude was.

Page 3340

 1        Q.   Can you explain this crowd and commotion to the Trial Chamber,

 2     please.

 3        A.   It was probably on account of the arrival of the buses and due to

 4     the fact that they had some knowledge of the people who were on the

 5     buses.

 6        Q.   And you told us that others threatened.  Could you tell the Court

 7     what type of threats you heard.

 8        A.   I observed the threat of those who were the loudest among them.

 9     Radivoje Jakovljevic, also known as Frizider, who was the most stentorian

10     of them, threatening Kemo, the man with the nickname Kemo.  Zeljko Jurela

11     was also threatened by him.  It was terrifying to experience the threats,

12     and being there alone was horrible.

13        Q.   For the record, could you repeat the name of the man who you said

14     was the loudest among them.

15        A.   Radivoje Jakovljevic, also known as Frizider.

16        Q.   How did you know this man?

17        A.   He was a local.  How shall I call him?  A man who had a

18     propensity for outbursts of this kind and was known to many in town.

19        Q.   Do you remember what he was wearing on that day?

20        A.   Vaguely I do remember.  He had something of military clothing on

21     him, but I don't remember specifically.

22        Q.   And you explained to us the threats that you experienced there.

23     And you said that being alone there was -- was horrible.  Could you

24     explain to the Judges the atmosphere in the barracks at that moment?

25        A.   There was some kind of euphoria, and the people who met us there

Page 3341

 1     were venting.  Jakovljevic threatened us a lot.  He said he hadn't slit

 2     anyone's throat yet.  He addressed slurs to the people I enumerated

 3     earlier and threatened them with death.

 4        Q.   How long did these threats last?

 5        A.   We were exposed to that for an hour or two.  Perhaps longer.  But

 6     it's difficult to judge.  It was difficult to -- to judge how much time

 7     passed there and then.

 8        Q.   Sir, I'd like you to look at a video footage from that day.  It

 9     is not from the JNA barracks but in relation to the atmosphere you

10     described.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we look at 65 ter 4989.3.

12             For the interpreters, you have this as a bundle of transcripts

13     for the ERN V000-6882.  In the English version, it is as of page 13, and

14     in the B/C/S version, it is out of page 12.

15             And the clip we're going so see from 34 minutes, 14 seconds.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voice-over] It will be Serbian.  There won't

18     be Ustashas anymore.  There will be no more Fascism.  No, won't let it

19     happen anymore.  We suffered and kept quiet and waited for 50 years and

20     they hated us.  Enough is enough.  We can only fight with them.  Why?

21     Why?  Because they kill our people.  They kill our children.  Have you

22     never seen a kid of 2, the head -- the head of the kid is on the pig.

23     You know?  And the head of the pig is on the kid's body.  You know what

24     that means.  Have you seen that?  No.  With those people can we discuss

25     anything?  Never.  We can only fight them.  To the last, to the last.  To

Page 3342

 1     the last bullet, to the last Ustasha, you know."

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.   Looking at what these individuals are wearing here, is this

 4     something that you recognised in Vukovar at the time.

 5        A.   That's the kind of man who is in the barracks, when we were there

 6     in the barracks.

 7        Q.   I'd like to you look at the second clip which is 65 ter 4799.4.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And for the interpreters it is part of the

 9     second bundle you were given, and it is as of page 2 of the bundle,

10     starting from unidentified speaker number 5 or US 5.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voice-over] Name and last name.

13             "Of course, I know him.  Fuck his mother.

14             "Look how I set him up to shoot at the helmet.  He [bleep] missed

15     me.  The damn motherfucker [bleep].  That, that shit over there, he shot

16     three times behind that bunker.  There is a letter U there with a small

17     opening.  He was shooting from a sniper, damn it.  A handful of people

18     gave us" --

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

20        Q.   Sir, do you recognise what this man is wearing?

21        A.   No.  No, it's difficult for me to say.

22        Q.   Can we keep playing a bit.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voice-over] A handful of people gave us a good

25     running around.  That, that moron over there.  Here.  Where is he?  Where

Page 3343

 1     did they move him?  There he is.  That one.  [Expletive] ... that one

 2     there.  There he is.  He is going over there."

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, we saw two video-clips here, and can you just -- you

 5     told us earlier that the -- the clothing that you saw on the first clip

 6     was the type of the person you saw at the JNA barracks, and we also saw

 7     the way that people were addressing.  Is this what you also experimented

 8     [sic] at the JNA barracks?

 9        A.   It's hard to make the connections, but there is a resemblance.

10     If I try to describe them, I would describe them as a crowd on a rampage.

11     Not exactly, perhaps, but close to that.

12        Q.   And did you recognise any of the locations on the two clips that

13     we just saw?

14        A.   The first location was in town near Becarski Kriz.  And the

15     second location, I suppose, is in Borovo Naselje, on the Borovo road.

16        Q.   Very well.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, can I ask that the two clips

18     marked as 4989.3 and 4799.4 be admitted.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, you only -- you tender them only

21     for the images or for the images and -- because there are no transcript

22     in e-court.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  The transcripts are available, Your Honours.  I

24     have been just informed that they just need to be linked.   So perhaps

25     for the time we can MFI them and once the case manager contacts the court

Page 3344

 1     officer we can finalize this.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I agree with that.

 3             So we'll -- we'll mark them for identification.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 4989.3 shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit P1401 marked for identification.

 6             And 65 ter document 4799.4 shall be assigned Exhibit P1402,

 7     marked for identification.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Now, sir, I'd like to take you back to the barracks.  While you

11     were on the buses, were the two soldiers you indicated to us which were

12     on the bus earlier at the Vukovar Hospital, were they still on the bus?

13        A.   Yes.  They were our protection escorts on the journey, and they

14     were with us all the time.

15        Q.   And how long did the buses remain at the JNA barracks?

16        A.   I said, an hour, perhaps two.

17        Q.   Were you able to tell at what time the buses departed the JNA

18     barracks?

19        A.   I suppose it was between 1.00 and 2.00 p.m.

20        Q.   And how were you able to tell the time on that day?

21        A.   At that time I still had a watch and I looked at it from time to

22     time, and I was able to also know the time because it was a sunny day and

23     you could deduce even without a watch what the time was.

24        Q.   Now, where did the buses drive to next?

25        A.   Before the buses left -- I think I've already mentioned that two

Page 3345

 1     or three more buses joined us from the direction of Sajmiste.  And after

 2     this long motorcade was formed, the vehicles drove a full circle, a

 3     return to Sajmiste, and continued towards Negoslavci.

 4        Q.   And did the buses go to Negoslavci?

 5        A.   No.  Before Negoslavci they took a left turn to a former track

 6     that had been paved in the meantime and was used by agricultural machines

 7     that were used for agricultural production.

 8        Q.   And when they turned left, where did they head to?

 9        A.   They took a shortcut towards a large farm known as Ovcara.

10        Q.   Were you familiar with this area?

11        A.   Yes, I know that area.

12        Q.   And just bear with me, can you tell -- I'm sorry.  Can you tell

13     the Court how you were familiar with the area of Ovcara.

14        A.   I spent time there during the spring.  I knew that area very

15     well.

16        Q.   Now, when the buses arrived at Ovcara, which bus were you on?

17        A.   In the second or third bus.  After I boarded, nothing changed.  I

18     remained in the same position.  Because the buses that joined us, joined

19     us from the tail.

20        Q.   Now, when the buses arrived at Ovcara, did they stop anywhere?

21        A.   They stopped by the hangar which was a warehouse for agricultural

22     tools and other equipment.

23        Q.   Now, what -- what happened once the buses stopped by the hangar?

24        A.   We started getting off.  People got off the buses one by one, and

25     they went into that hangar.

Page 3346

 1        Q.   Could you explain to the Court how the buses were unloaded?  When

 2     you say that the people got off the buses one by one, can you explain

 3     that?

 4        A.   One by one.  A line was formed to get off the buses.  People got

 5     out one by one because you know how narrow the door on the bus is.  After

 6     one bus was emptied, the next bus in line would move up, and that's how

 7     everybody got out.

 8        Q.   Now, in your bus, on which side of the bus were you sitting?

 9        A.   On the right-hand side in the back.

10        Q.   When the buses stopped in front of the hangar, were you able to

11     see if there was anyone outside?

12        A.   Yes, I was.  I saw soldiers and reservists or whatever they were.

13     I saw them walking to and fro and standing around the hangar.

14        Q.   And can you give the Judges a rough idea of number of these

15     soldiers?

16        A.   Well, there were certainly around 50.  Roughly.

17        Q.   Now, what happened next?  Once people were unloading the buses,

18     what would happen next?

19        A.   People were directed to the hangar.  Clothes were removed from

20     them.  All the valuables they had were taken.  If they were holding

21     something in their hands, they would have to throw it on a heap, and they

22     were pushed into the hangar.  Herded into the hangar.

23        Q.   And what happens once prisoners entered the hangar?

24        A.   Upon entering the hangar, the prisoners had to walk through a

25     gauntlet made up of those soldiers who were present.  They were beaten

Page 3347

 1     with various objects and pushed into the hangar.

 2        Q.   How many soldiers were there in this -- forming this gauntlet?

 3        A.   Around 20.  Although it's difficult to say precisely now but

 4     around 20.

 5        Q.   Did you recognise any of the soldiers when you exited the bus?

 6        A.   While I was still on the bus, I noticed Dusan Borovac, for

 7     instance, who was a reservist.  I recognised him.  But I could not

 8     remember now anyone else.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12        Q.   I'm wondering whether we should redact the last two lines to be

13     on the safe side.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do, Mr. Registrar.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Now, you explained to us that prisoners had to go through a

17     gauntlet and were beaten with objects.  Once you entered the hangar and

18     you passed the gauntlet, where did you go to next?

19        A.   After the gauntlet and all the commotion there, we were placed on

20     the hay.  There was hay all over the hangar.  Some people sat down; some

21     were still standing.  That's how it was.

22        Q.   Were the prisoners received in -- in the hangar in any way?

23        A.   No.  They were beaten up in that gauntlet.  And, after that, they

24     freely dispersed in the first half of that hangar on top of the hay.

25        Q.   And can you give the Chamber a rough estimate of how many

Page 3348

 1     prisoners there were in the hangar?

 2        A.   Judging by the number of buses that I saw and taking into account

 3     how many people one bus can hold and from seeing how many we were inside

 4     the hangar, my estimate would be around 300 prisoners.

 5        Q.   Now, after the commotion of the gauntlet, which you explained to

 6     us, could you tell the Court how the detainees were treated inside the

 7     hangar?

 8        A.   After that torture we went through, people were abused

 9     individually.  Those groups of men - or, rather, not humans - would pick

10     on individuals and beat them up, some of them to death.

11        Q.   Did you recognise any of the prisoners who were treated this way?

12        A.   Yes.  Very close to me was the man known as Kemo who was so badly

13     beaten, kicked beaten with rifle-butts and barrels, that the only

14     conclusion I -- I can make is that he -- he died there.

15        Q.   Is this the only prisoner that you remember who was treated this

16     way?

17        A.   No.  I also remember Vladimir Djukic, nicknamed Dado, who was

18     beaten with baseball bats and even with his own crutches.  He had been

19     recently wounded and shot in his legs, so he was using crutches, and they

20     used those crutches to beat him.

21        Q.   And can you give us an idea of how many prisoners were being

22     beaten inside the hangar?

23        A.   It's hard to say.  It was chaotic.  Visibility was bad because

24     there was so many people inside.  But we can take it that at least

25     10 per cent of those people were badly beaten and mistreated in the

Page 3349

 1     hangar.

 2        Q.   And could you specify who was doing the beating?

 3        A.   Well, those were reservists and troops who were there.  Members

 4     of the army who were within the compound in the hangar, abusing

 5     prisoners.  The army, the JNA, whatever you want to call them.

 6        Q.   Did you notice whether anyone was in charge inside the hangar?

 7        A.   There was a person, a man, stocky, with a moustache, wearing a

 8     JNA windcheater with rank insignia and a whistle, and with that whistle,

 9     he somehow supervised those people.

10        Q.   And how was he supervising these individuals?

11        A.   Well, he blew his whistle to somehow diminish the abuse that was

12     going on, and after his warnings, the violence would die down.  They

13     would leave.  But very soon, they would come back, and the same thing

14     would go on.

15        Q.   Now, when you -- when you exited the buses, you told us that you

16     saw about 50 soldiers outside.  Are you able to tell us whether it was

17     the same group that entered the hangar?

18        A.   I cannot confirm that, but it's highly likely that they, too,

19     went in and committed misdeeds.

20        Q.   Now, were you questioned by anyone inside the hangar at one

21     point?

22        A.   I personally was not questioned by anyone, but they did list us

23     all.  So I was addressed eventually by that person who was making a list

24     of all us in the hangar.

25        Q.   And could you tell us what was being put on that list.

Page 3350

 1        A.   They took down our personal details, date and place of birth,

 2     names of parents, and address, as far as I can remember.  At any rate,

 3     the soldier who was making that list went around and listed us all.

 4        Q.   Now, I would like to have the assistance of the usher to -- if

 5     you could draw on the screen a diagram of the hangar on a blank screen.

 6     I will ask you to use different colours just so that we could distinguish

 7     persons and locations.

 8             So could we first have maybe a blank screen in front of us.

 9     Thank you very much.

10             Now, sir, using perhaps the -- I don't know, we have three or

11     four colours.  Let's use the blue colour first, if possible.  And can you

12     first draw the hangar.

13        A.   [Marks].

14        Q.   And could you -- all right.  Yes.  Now what's that smaller

15     rectangle you drew at the bottom right?

16        A.   It's one of the entrances into the hangar.

17        Q.   Could you first mark -- could you first mark the entrance with

18     the letter A.

19        A.   [Marks].

20        Q.   Okay.  You can erase that and do it again if it's not clear

21     enough.

22             Yes, let's erase that writing at the bottom.  Thank you.

23             Now, below the entrance, below A, what do we see there?

24        A.   It's the access to the hangar and the road.

25        Q.   Okay.  Could you mark the access with the letter B.

Page 3351

 1        A.   [Marks].

 2        Q.   Now, when you entered the hangar, could you show us where the

 3     gauntlet was and mark that with the letter C.

 4        A.   [Marks].

 5        Q.   Now, you told us that you went -- you were all aligned in one

 6     part of the hangar, occupying half of that hangar.  Could you show us

 7     where that was, where the men were lined up?

 8        A.   [Marks].

 9        Q.   And could you maybe mark that general area with the letter D.

10        A.   [Marks].

11        Q.   Was there anything separating the men, or were they all in one

12     long file?

13        A.   There was a school desk there which had one end of the rope tied

14     to it.  And the rope stretched to the other end.  And this is where some

15     of the prisoners were.

16        Q.   Maybe using a different colour, if you could use the colour red,

17     could we draw that desk and the rope, please.

18        A.   [Marks].

19        Q.   And can you put the letter E for the desk, please.

20        A.   [Marks].

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, could you show us where you were once you went

22     through the gauntlet?  And use the letter F.

23        A.   [Marks].

24        Q.   You told us that you saw Kemo being beaten.  Where was he

25     located?  And can you use a letter G for that.

Page 3352

 1        A.   [Marks].

 2        Q.   Very well.  And you also mentioned Dado Djukic.  Where was he

 3     located?  Letter H.  Thank you.

 4        A.   [Marks].

 5        Q.   Can you show us where you saw the -- the -- the soldier or the

 6     officer with the moustache and the whistle?  And use the letter I.

 7        A.   [Marks].

 8        Q.   And, finally, you told us that you noticed Dusan Borovac.  Where

 9     was he when you noticed him?  Put the letter J.

10        A.   I saw him outside the hangar.

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   [Marks].

13        Q.   This was while you were on the bus still; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And inside the hangar, did you recognise any other soldier?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Okay.

18        A.   I recognised some soldiers in the hangar though.

19        Q.   Yes, that's what I meant.  Sorry.  Can you tell us who you

20     recognised in the hangar.

21        A.   I recognised some locals, most of them from Sajmiste.  I

22     particularly observed Miroljub and some others whose names I can't recall

23     at present.

24        Q.   Do you know Miroljub's last name?

25        A.   I have to give it a think ...

Page 3353

 1             Perhaps I'll remember later.

 2        Q.   That's fine.  When you saw him in the hangar, what was he wearing

 3     on that day?

 4        A.   He was wearing a grey olive-green uniform and a cap that was

 5     somewhat peculiar compared to that which was normally worn by the

 6     reservists.  It was more like a baseball cap with the -- with the long

 7     brim.

 8        Q.   And do you remember if Miroljub had any role or function at the

 9     time?

10        A.   It was hard to tell who had which function, but he did leave the

11     impression of having a significant role.

12        Q.   And this man named Miroljub, did you hear of him after the war?

13        A.   Yes.  He was accused and perhaps has been convicted in the

14     meantime for the crime at Ovcara.  I think that he is in prison now, in

15     Belgrade or thereabouts.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I tender the drawing that the

17     witness made on the screen, please.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  The hand-drawn sketch will be assigned exhibit

20     number P1403.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  With the help of the usher -- first of all,

23     could we display on the screen 65 ter 5846, which is at tab 66.

24             And we can go to page 11, please, in the B/C/S version.

25             Thank you very much.  If we can zoom in just a little bit.  Yep.

Page 3354

 1        Q.   Sir, this is a list of victims which was annexed to the

 2     indictment in this case.  Could I ask you to go through the names that

 3     you see on the screen and indicate for us whether you recognise anyone.

 4     And, as you recognise someone, we will be marking them with letters, as

 5     to whether you know that they took part in -- during the conflict,

 6     whether they were civilians.  If you don't know, we'll use certain

 7     letters.

 8             So could you first tell us if, on this page, you're able to

 9     recognise anyone.

10        A.   Tomislav Bajnrauh.  He lived in my neighbourhood.  I don't know

11     what his participation was in the war.

12        Q.   Could you put a question mark next to his name.  Yes.

13             Can you now put a question mark next to his name.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It's not working?  There's no way to mark

15     this ...

16             Okay.

17        Q.   Can you put a question mark next to his name?  I only see a dot

18     here.

19        A.   [Marks].

20        Q.   So that is Tomislav Bajnrauh.  Anybody else on this page?

21        A.   Stjepan Balas, right beneath him.

22        Q.   And do you know what he did during the war?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Now, before we move on, these two individuals, did you know them

25     or did you see them?  Could you tell us about them, please.

Page 3355

 1        A.   I didn't see Bajnrauh, if we are talking about Ovcara.  As for

 2     Stjepan Balas, he was next to me, or close to me, within the hangar.

 3        Q.   Very well.  I apologise, sir, I believe my question may have been

 4     a little unclear.  What I want you to do is only mark the persons that

 5     you saw either at the hospital, on your bus, or at Ovcara on that day.

 6             So Bajnrauh, did you see him on that day or not?

 7        A.   I didn't see him on that day.  Bajnrauh.  You asked me if I knew

 8     anyone.

 9        Q.   Yes.  I apologise.  I only want you to mark on this list those

10     that you saw on the 20th of November.

11             Going down that list, is there anybody else that you recognise --

12     that you -- sorry.  That you saw on that day, on the 20th of November.

13        A.   Nobody else on this list.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Before we move to the next page, is it possible

16     to capture the markings?  I will admit the whole list -- do I have to

17     tender each page one by one?

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It can be captured.  Thank you.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you very much.

21             Can we move to the next page, please.

22        Q.   Are you able to see the page?  Yes.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Again, on this page, if you could mark -- first of all, tell us

25     if you recognise anybody you saw on the 20th of November.

Page 3356

 1        A.   For instance, Vladimir Djukic.

 2        Q.   Yes, you did mention him earlier.  What was his role or function

 3     during the conflict?

 4        A.   He was the commander at the front line at Sajmiste.  At one of

 5     the positions there.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Can we put the letter D next to his name, for defender.

 7        A.   [Marks].

 8        Q.   Anybody else?

 9        A.   Stanko Duvnjak.

10        Q.   Where did you see him?

11        A.   He was in the hospital.  I also saw him at Ovcara.

12        Q.   And was he a defender or -- do you know?

13        A.   Yes, he was.  He was a defender within the Ministry of Interior.

14     He was a policeman.

15        Q.   Can you put the letter D next to his name.

16        A.   [Marks].

17        Q.   And if you can carry down that list.

18        A.   Dragan Gavric.

19        Q.   And what about him?  What was his status?

20        A.   I have no knowledge about him.

21        Q.   Where did you see him?

22        A.   In the hangar.

23        Q.   Can you put a question mark next to his name.

24        A.   [Marks].

25        Q.   Carry down that list.

Page 3357

 1        A.   Sinisa Glavasevic.

 2        Q.   And what was he during the conflict?  What was his role.

 3        A.   He was a journalist from Vukovar.  He worked as a journalist.

 4        Q.   To your knowledge, did he take part in -- during the combat?

 5        A.   He did not.  He was reporting on the situation at the front line.

 6        Q.   Could I ask you to put the letter C next to his name, which we

 7     will use for civilian.

 8        A.   [Marks].

 9        Q.   And as you go through this list, I will ask you to use these

10     three letters - the D, the C, and the question mark - depending on what

11     your knowledge is.

12             Is there anybody else on this list?

13        A.   Drago Gudlej.

14        Q.   Where did you see him on that day?

15        A.   In the hospital.

16        Q.   And what was his function?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Use the question mark then.

19        A.   [Marks].

20        Q.   Is there anybody else?

21        A.   No, no.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let's capture these markings and move to the

23     next page, please.

24             Can we zoom in just a little bit.  Yeah.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Yes, can we use the same letters on this page, sir.

Page 3358

 1        A.   Can we have the next list?

 2        Q.   Before we move.  Zeljko Jurela.  Where did you see him on the

 3     20th of November?

 4        A.   He was with me on the bus.  And even in the military vehicle that

 5     took us outside the hangar.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let's move to the next page, please.

 7        Q.   Yes, if you can carry on with this page as well.

 8        A.   Can we have the next page?

 9        Q.   [Microphone not activated] yes.

10        A.   [Marks].

11        Q.   You put a question mark next to Mato Perak.  Can you tell us

12     where you saw him on that day?

13        A.   He was with me as we were leaving the hangar and boarding the

14     military vehicle.

15        Q.   Okay.  Is there anybody else on this page?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  I believe there's one more page.

18        Q.   Yes, if you can carry on with this page as well.

19        A.   [Marks].

20        Q.   And we see you put a question mark next to Ceman Saiti.  Who is

21     he?

22        A.   Based on the information I have now, I can assume that this is

23     the man going by the nickname of Kemo.

24        Q.   You have placed a D next to Damjan Samardzic.  Can you tell us

25     where you saw him?

Page 3359

 1        A.   I saw him on the bus, on the trip that started from the compound

 2     of the barracks.

 3        Q.   Okay.  If you move down that list.

 4        A.   [Marks].

 5        Q.    Tadija Tadic.  Where did you see him?

 6        A.   I saw him in the hospital.  He had just been wounded and was

 7     there.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Carry on.

 9        A.   I don't recognise anybody else.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we move to the next page.

11        Q.   Yes, if you can tell us whether you recognise anybody on this

12     page that you had seen on the 20th.

13        A.   [Marks].

14        Q.   Where did you see Zvonko Varenica?

15        A.   In the hangar.  He was close to me.  He was a maintenance worker

16     in the hospital.

17        Q.   To your knowledge, did he take part in the combat?

18        A.   No, I don't have knowledge to that effect.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you move down the list.

20        A.   That will be all.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I ask to -- may I tender the

23     marked versions of this list.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Pages 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, and 17 of the 65 ter

Page 3360

 1     document 5846 marked by the witness shall be assigned exhibit

 2     number 1404.  Thank you.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  And before we adjourn for the day --

 4        Q.   Could you tell us how long you remained in the hangar?

 5        A.   How long?  Well, an hour, two, three.  It's difficult to say.

 6        Q.   And what happened after this time that you were in the hangar?

 7        A.   Since it became dark soon after, quite soon, the evacuation of

 8     the prisoners from -- from the hangar began.

 9        Q.   Very well.  We'll continue tomorrow.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I think this is an appropriate

11     time.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

13             Mr. Witness, this brings us to the end of the today's hearing.

14     You are not released as a witness.  You will come back tomorrow morning

15     at 9.00 in the same courtroom.

16             In the meantime, you are -- you're still under oath, which means

17     that you're not allowed to discuss with anybody your testimony and that

18     are you not allowed to talk to any of the parties in the meantime.

19             Do you understand?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  We -- thank you.

22             We will go into closed session now, and then the court usher will

23     escort you out of court.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [Closed session]


Page 3361

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

11                           March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.