Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3362

 1                           Wednesday, 6 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Alex Demirdjian,

15     for the Prosecution, with Sebastiaan van Hooydonk, our Case Manager,

16     Robert Goodwin, our intern, and Mr. Douglas Stringer will be coming in

17     shortly.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Gosnell for the Defence.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

21     Christopher Gosnell for Mr. Hadzic, along with Liane Aronchick, legal

22     assistant.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Gosnell, do we have any

24     news of Mr. Zivanovic's health?

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Nothing specific other than that when I awoke this


Page 3363

 1     morning I was informed that he had been admitted to hospital.  My

 2     understanding based on further information is he was admitted around 6.00

 3     or 7.00 this morning.  I don't know his condition.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, just for your information,

 6     Mr. Stringer is now making some inquiries to see whether we could finish

 7     this witness in-chief and perhaps start the next -- the next witness's

 8     examination-in-chief because I suspect that Mr. Gosnell had not prepared

 9     to cross-examine the witness who is currently on the stand.  So I don't

10     know what the situation will be, but we will reconvene again on this

11     matter at the end of examination-in-chief, once Mr. Stringer had

12     returned.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             The witness may be brought in.  In closed session, of course.

15     Thank you.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated] thank you.

25             Good morning to you, Mr. Witness.


Page 3364

 1             Mr. Demirdjian, please proceed.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                           WITNESS:  GH-080 [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 8        A.   Thank you.  Good morning.

 9        Q.   We left off yesterday at the part of the story where you were

10     telling us that soon after it became dark the evacuation of the prisoners

11     from the hangar began.

12             Can you tell us how this evacuation of the prisoners from the

13     hangar began.  How did it proceed?

14        A.   The prisoners were lined up, a certain number of them - I could

15     not see exactly how many, 10 to 20, not more - and, in a line, they were

16     taken out of the hangar.

17        Q.   And could you tell us if you know who was calling or organising

18     these witnesses -- these prisoners' evacuation?

19        A.   Well, the soldiers did.

20        Q.   And amongst the soldiers, was -- was there anybody in charge of

21     this?

22        A.   I did not notice, but I suppose it was the person with the

23     whistle.

24        Q.   Now, did there come a time when you were taken out of the hangar?

25        A.   Yes.  My turn came, too.  I was lined up and taken out.

Page 3365

 1        Q.   And you first told us that there was a group of 10 to 20 persons.

 2     Were you part of that group, or was -- did your turn come at a later

 3     point?

 4        A.   My turn came a bit later.  I suppose it was the third or even the

 5     fourth group.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And I know I'm asking you a lot of details; but,

 7     approximately, are you able to say how much time elapsed between this

 8     first group and your group?

 9        A.   I suppose it was 15 to 20 minutes that it took one group to be

10     taken out, so if there were three groups before me, it might have been an

11     hour, or a bit less.

12        Q.   Now, could you explain to the Court what happened when you were

13     taken out of the hangar.

14        A.   After being taken out of the hangar, we were directed to a

15     military vehicle that was standing ready close to the hangar.

16        Q.   And how were you able to assess that this was a military vehicle?

17        A.   Well, it was obviously a military vehicle, the way it looked.

18     And it also had certain markings, but I cannot remember exactly what they

19     looked like.  It was undoubtedly a military vehicle.

20        Q.   And could you explain to the Court when you mean "military

21     vehicle," what type of vehicle are we talking about here?

22        A.   Usual type, I suppose, carrying capacity two tonnes normally used

23     in military activities to transport personnel and equipment.

24        Q.   And just to close up, can you describe what it was -- or what it

25     looked like.  You say that it was a typical two-tonnes vehicle.  What

Page 3366

 1     would it look like if we were to look at it?

 2        A.   There was only one vehicle of the usual appearance covered with a

 3     tarp.

 4        Q.   Now, I understand you were led onto this -- to this truck.  How

 5     many people were in your group?

 6        A.   I've already mentioned that our group, like all the others, had

 7     the same number of people.  I didn't count.  But there were many people,

 8     between 10 and 20 each.

 9        Q.   Now what happened once you got onto the vehicle?

10        A.   After we boarded the vehicle, the folding stairs were folded up,

11     and we found ourselves in a closed space.  And the soldiers who had

12     helped us board got on, into the cab, and started driving.

13        Q.   And where did it -- in which direction did it drive?

14        A.   It headed right in the direction of the Grabovo farm.

15        Q.   And did it reach the Grabovo farm?

16        A.   No.  About halfway to Ovcara, the vehicle turned left, towards

17     woods.

18        Q.   Just to be clear, the transcript reads "about halfway to Ovcara";

19     is that right?

20        A.   Roughly speaking.  Although from what I know now, I believe it

21     was closer to Ovcara.  But that doesn't matter that much.

22        Q.   Now when it turns -- when it turns towards the -- the woods, what

23     were you doing in the truck?

24        A.   We didn't do anything.  We just sat there being driven, waiting

25     to see what would happen next.  Mato Perak was peering through the

Page 3367

 1     opening where the folding stairs were; whereas another prisoner,

 2     Zeljko Jurela, tried to stop him, saying, Don't you try anything or they

 3     will kill us.  And after some time, a decision ripened in my head, and I

 4     jumped through that small opening.

 5        Q.   Now, after you jumped through that opening, did you ever see

 6     Mato Perak and Zeljko Jurela again?

 7        A.   No, I never saw them again.

 8        Q.   What happened to the truck after you jumped?

 9        A.   The truck went on, on its way.  No changes.

10        Q.   And what did you do after you jumped out of the truck?

11        A.   I started to walk away from that place, in the direction of

12     Vukovar.

13        Q.   As you started walking towards Vukovar, what, if anything, did

14     you hear after you jumped?

15        A.   Well, walking away from that place, shortly afterwards, I heard a

16     short volley of fire and a few individual gun-shots.

17        Q.   You said that you started walking towards Vukovar.  Where did you

18     end up that night?

19        A.   That night, making my way through the corn fields and impassable

20     tracks around Vukovar and one part of Sajmiste, I headed for Vinkovci.

21     And when I was almost there, I stopped at Ceric village, where I woke up

22     the reservists.

23        Q.   From Ovcara to Ceric, how -- what is the distance roughly?

24        A.   Perhaps 20 kilometres.  I'm not sure.

25        Q.   Now, what happened -- you said that you woke up reservists.  What

Page 3368

 1     happened at that moment?

 2        A.   Well, then I fell prisoner to them.

 3        Q.   And in this village, you said you woke up reservists.  Was --

 4     what was in that village?  Was there any specific building or anything of

 5     that sort?

 6        A.   That happened in the periphery of the village in a usual normal

 7     house where they had a position that they were supposed to hold and

 8     obviously they did not place guards outside.  Instead, they had all gone

 9     to sleep.

10        Q.   And how much time did you spend in this building?

11        A.   After I showed up, they put me in a kiln, and that's where I

12     stayed until the morning.

13        Q.   Now, the next morning, did you have any interactions with the

14     reservists that you had woken up the previous [Microphone not activated]

15        A.   What do you mean by contacts or interactions?

16        Q.   Did they speak to you; did you say anything to them; or vice

17     versa?

18        A.   Well, yes, we did talk.  I told them where I had come from and

19     where I was headed.  And, after that, they took me to their command post

20     somewhere in the village.

21        Q.   And when you told them where you had come from, were you specific

22     about what happened at the night of -- at Ovcara?

23        A.   No, I did not mention that.

24        Q.   After they were -- you were taken to their command post in the

25     village, were you taken somewhere else?

Page 3369

 1        A.   I stayed briefly at their command post where they abused me a

 2     little and robbed me of the few things I had left on me.  They put me in

 3     a military vehicle under armed escort which pointed their guns at me.  I

 4     was driven away.

 5        Q.   And where were you driven to?

 6        A.   They drove me to some sort of assembly place or command post of

 7     theirs, but it was just an ordinary house in Stari Jankovci.

 8        Q.   And could you describe to the Court what, if anything, happened

 9     to you there.

10        A.   I was taken to a basement where I found some more prisoners - I

11     believe three of them - and we stayed there for a while, before they took

12     me up for questioning.  In the end, they put me back in that basement

13     where a military policeman beat me up.

14        Q.   And how long did the military police beat you up there?

15        A.   I don't know how long, but it was until I slumped on the floor.

16     And then he moved on to the others.

17        Q.   Did there come a time on that day where you were taken to the

18     town of Sid?

19        A.   It was not that day.  I spent one more night in that house where

20     they took me out again to see the same officer who had questioned me

21     before, and then they tied me.  In fact, they handcuffed me to the

22     radiator, and that's how I spent the night.

23        Q.   Were you given any food or beverage?

24        A.   I think the next day we had something to eat, but I'm not sure.

25     In any case, it was very little, if we got anything to eat at all.

Page 3370

 1        Q.   When I asked you earlier whether you were taken to Sid, you told

 2     us it was not that day.  You spent one more night in that house.  So this

 3     brings us to the next day, to the following day.

 4             At which point were you taken to Sid?

 5        A.   We were taken to Sid that next day in the morning.

 6        Q.   And in Sid, could you tell us where you were taken to.

 7        A.   We were taken to the police station in Sid.

 8        Q.   And did you speak to anyone in particular at the police station

 9     in Sid?

10        A.   They took us out one by one at the police station, and a man

11     interrogated us.  I suppose he was a police inspector wearing civilian

12     clothing.  But from his appearance and the way he acted and the questions

13     he asked, you could understand that he was some sort of inspector.

14        Q.   What questions did this inspector ask you?

15        A.   Well, the questions were about our participation in the defence,

16     and the focus of his questions of me was how many people were killed at

17     Ovcara.  But since I didn't know, I said I didn't know how many had been

18     killed, but he kept insisting that he recognised me, that we had seen

19     each other at Ovcara, which I was unable to confirm.

20        Q.   Now, how long did you remain in Sid?

21        A.   A few hours.

22        Q.   And after these few hours, where did you go to?

23        A.   A few hours later, a group of soldiers arrived.  They took us out

24     of that room, beat us, and kicked us - usually in the head - tied us up,

25     and pushed us onto the military vehicle.  And the way we were, covered in

Page 3371

 1     blood, they took us to Sremska Mitrovica.

 2        Q.   And once you were taken to Sremska Mitrovica, did they take to

 3     you a particular building?

 4        A.   Yes.  We were taken to the prison in Sremska Mitrovica.  They

 5     searched us there.  They kept on beating us on the backs.  And then they

 6     threw us into a large room.

 7        Q.   How many people were in this large room?

 8        A.   About a hundred or so.

 9        Q.   At any point, were you told why you were taken to

10     Sremska Mitrovica?

11        A.   At that time nobody told us why we had been brought there, only

12     days later somebody mentioned that that was a pre-investigation prison

13     and that that was the purpose of our stay there.

14        Q.   And could you tell the Court who was guarding the prison.

15        A.   The prisoner guards were military policemen.

16        Q.   And did there come a time where you were interrogated during your

17     detention at Sremska Mitrovica prison?

18        A.   Yes.  People were being interrogated all the time.  I was taken

19     out to be interrogated on several occasions.

20        Q.   And do you know who were your interrogators?

21        A.   They were JNA officers.  And I specifically was interrogated by a

22     warrant officer second class or a sergeant.  I don't know.

23        Q.   Now, you explained to us what you had gone through at Ovcara, at

24     the village in Ceric, at Stari Jankovci, at Sid.  Could you tell the

25     Court by the time you arrived at Sremska Mitrovica, what your physical

Page 3372

 1     condition was like?

 2        A.   When I arrived at Sremska Mitrovica, I was completely weak.  I

 3     was shattered.  I could not stand on my two legs, which is why two of my

 4     very good friends from Vukovar had to carry me.  They were always there

 5     for me because, for the first few days, I could not even stand up.  I

 6     could not get up.  I was black and blue all over my body and on the head.

 7        Q.   Now, during the questioning you were telling us you were

 8     interrogated by an officer.  Did you, at any moment, mention the events

 9     that you had witnessed at Ovcara?

10        A.   I did not mention Ovcara anywhere.  I thought that that had

11     nothing to it with my participation in the war.  I was being investigated

12     by the opposite side.

13        Q.   And generally what was the gist of their questions during the

14     interrogations?

15        A.   The gist of their questions was my participation, my engagement,

16     the plan of the minefields and mines and explosives that we had laid, my

17     group and myself.

18        Q.   Did the interrogators ever ask you about the reason for your

19     physical condition?

20        A.   No.  They didn't ask me about that.  There was a captain there

21     who, I assume, was responsible for us, had been in Stari Jankovci, and he

22     knew very well how I had been treated.  He even emphasised that.  He said

23     that nobody but me knew what it was like to be beaten black and blue.

24        Q.   Now, sir, you told the Court when you arrived at

25     Sremska Mitrovica you were brought to a large room.  Could you describe

Page 3373

 1     to us the dimensions of this room.

 2        A.   Let's say that it was 50 metres by 10 metres -- or, rather,

 3     8 metres.

 4        Q.   And you told us earlier that there were about a hundred detainees

 5     in this room?

 6        A.   Yes.  That number changed.  People would be brought in.  Some

 7     people would leave.  But, at times, they were up to 120 of us.

 8        Q.   What were the conditions like in this room where you were kept

 9     with the 100 to 120 other detainees?

10        A.   The conditions?  Terrible.  There was just a floor, nothing else.

11     The only mitigating circumstance was the fact that there was a toilet

12     adjacent to that room so we could use that toilet.  And there was water

13     there.  And the rest was just a abysmal, especially for those who were

14     wounded and there were those who had gun-shot wounds with fixators.

15     There were people there without arms or legs.  A mere glance at them was

16     awful.

17        Q.   You said that the -- it was especially -- well, the situation was

18     especially -- it was more for those who were wounded.  Were they attended

19     to or were they provided any care?

20        A.   As time went on, the conditions improved a bit.  We were given

21     very thin mattresses to sleep on.  And as for medical assistance, it was

22     provided gradually.  Some of the wounded later on were given proper beds.

23        Q.   Just for the Trial Chamber's understanding, are you able to give

24     us a time estimate as to how much time elapsed between your arrival at

25     Sremska Mitrovica and the moment where these conditions gradually were

Page 3374

 1     ameliorated?

 2        A.   Perhaps a week or thereabouts.

 3        Q.   Now, besides the interrogators that you explained to us earlier

 4     and the captain, did you know who was the overall commander of the

 5     prison?

 6        A.   No, I don't know that.

 7        Q.   And while you were in this large room, were you visited by

 8     anyone?

 9        A.   I believe that in the month of November, a delegation of the

10     Red Cross visited us and made a list of those of us who were there.

11        Q.   And besides the delegation of the Red Cross, what other

12     delegations, if any, visited the prison?

13        A.   There was a short visit by Goran Hadzic and his associates.

14        Q.   And when did that take place?

15        A.   I suppose that that was in the month of December.

16        Q.   And you said that he visited with his associates.  Could you give

17     us perhaps a description of who or what these associates were.

18        A.   From some of those who were interrogated, I heard that they were

19     the judges of the former court in Vukovar.

20        Q.   Now, you said that there was a short visit.  Where did

21     Goran Hadzic visit?  What did he visit exactly?

22        A.   He visited us.  He entered our room.  He looked at us briefly.

23     And then he left the room.

24        Q.   And you told us that, from some of those who were interrogated,

25     you heard that these were judges from the former court in Vukovar.

Page 3375

 1             Could you tell us what you learned from those who were

 2     interrogated?  And perhaps you could tell us how many of them were

 3     interrogated.

 4        A.   A few of them were interrogated.  They were managers and more

 5     prominent figures from the business life.  I don't know exactly what they

 6     discussed, what they were asked.  All they said was that they had had

 7     those interviews with former judges.

 8        Q.   And did you find out what was the purpose of the visit of this

 9     delegation?

10        A.   One could conclude -- or, rather, they concluded those who were

11     interrogated, that we would be tried as part of the Vukovar case.

12        Q.   Could you expand on that a bit?  What does that mean, that they

13     would be tried as part of the Vukovar case?

14        A.   Well, there was assumption that we would be put on trial by the

15     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

16        Q.   And you told us earlier that Goran Hadzic entered the room.  He

17     looked at you and he left.  Could you tell the Court how long that visit

18     lasted?

19        A.   It was a very brief visit, lasting perhaps a few minutes.

20        Q.   And during this visit, did anyone from the delegation say

21     anything to you?

22        A.   No.  As far as I know, nothing was said.

23        Q.   Earlier you told us that this was during the month of December.

24     Are you able to be a bit more specific, perhaps in terms of how much time

25     had elapsed since you were in detention?

Page 3376

 1        A.   Two or three weeks perhaps.

 2        Q.   Now, you told us that you were detained in this large room.  How

 3     much time did you spend there?

 4        A.   I was there from the 22nd November until the

 5     15th of January, 1992.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Before I move on, you told us that when this visit --

 7     when this delegation visited the prison, you saw Goran Hadzic.  Had you

 8     had seen him before that time?

 9        A.   Please repeat what you mean about what you have just asked --

10     asked me.  Where and how?

11        Q.   Let me be very clear.  You told us about the visit of the

12     delegation, which included Goran Hadzic and two or three of his

13     associates.  Before the visit of this delegation, had you ever seen him?

14        A.   I had never seen him personally; however, I saw him on TV.

15        Q.   And how many times, if you know, had you seen him on TV?

16        A.   A few times.  Once when he was arrested in Croatia.  That was

17     covered by the media quite a lot.  I don't know how many times I saw him.

18     Several times, I would say.

19        Q.   Very well.  Now, we've talked about this large room which you say

20     you were detained in until the 15th of January, 1992.  Where were you

21     taken to next?

22        A.   On the 15th of January, 1992, I was given a decision.  It was

23     signed.  It was a decision for me to be remand in custody.  I was placed

24     in isolation cell known as the ice box in the cellar of that building.

25        Q.   And why was it known as the ice box?

Page 3377

 1        A.   I don't know exactly why, but it was certainly very cold there,

 2     at least at that time.

 3        Q.   And how long were you held in the ice box?

 4        A.   From the 15th of January to the 4th of February, 1992.

 5        Q.   While you were in detention in Sremska Mitrovica, you told us

 6     that there was a decision for you to be remanded in custody, were there

 7     any proceedings against you?

 8        A.   Yes.  Proceedings were instituted against me.  I was the accused,

 9     and I was charged with war crimes against the civilian population and

10     armed rebellion.

11        Q.   Could you tell the Court what was the outcome of these

12     proceedings.

13        A.   The outcome of these proceedings -- well, the proceedings were

14     never completed.  The indictment was issued formally.  That trial started

15     but it was interrupted.  And then in the summer of 1992, we were

16     exchanged or -- and eventually released.

17        Q.   Now you told us earlier that you were in detention in the ice box

18     until the 4th of February, 1992, and that you were released during the

19     summer of 1992.  Where were you detained between the 4th of February and

20     the summer of 1992?

21        A.   From the 4th of February, 1992, I was transferred to the military

22     investigative prison in Belgrade.  That's where I stayed until the

23     14th of August, 1992, when I was exchanged.

24        Q.   Now, once you were exchanged, where were you taken to?

25        A.   We were exchanged in Nemetin near Osijek.  And then, during the

Page 3378

 1     night, we were transported to Zagreb to be joined up with our families.

 2        Q.   And at that time in Zagreb, were you joined with your family?

 3        A.   Yes.  On the 15th of August, 1992, I joined my family there.

 4        Q.   Upon your arrival in Zagreb -- well, following your arrival in

 5     Zagreb, did you give any statements?

 6        A.   Yes.  I provided several statements.

 7        Q.   And what was the subject of these statements?

 8        A.   Events in general, but particularly the issue of Ovcara and

 9     the -- the wounded persons who went missing there.

10        Q.   I would like to you look at a newspaper article which is

11     65 ter 1330 at tab 65.

12             While this is coming up, could you tell us what the authorities

13     did with this statement that you provided about the events at Ovcara?

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection.  I think a foundation should be laid

15     that he has any such knowledge.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I can rephrase the question, certainly.

17        Q.   Do you know if any -- if your statements were used in any way by

18     the authorities of Croatia after your release?

19        A.   I suppose they used them.  I suppose that's what statements are

20     for.

21        Q.   Now, looking at the newspaper article here, which is from the

22     30th of October, 1992, I want you to look at first paragraph.  The

23     article is called "The Vukovar burial mound."  And it appeared in the

24     Croatian newspaper called "Vecernje List."

25             Now, the first paragraph talks about French journalist who had

Page 3379

 1     found the location of a burial mound in Vukovar which was recently

 2     uncovered by UN experts.

 3             And the journalist here says that the discovery was made

 4     following the accounts given by a Croat that were published in a Zagreb

 5     newspaper.  The witness fled the place of the execution when the town

 6     fell in the hands of the JNA.

 7             I just wanted to ask you here:  Are you aware of anyone else who

 8     escaped the events at Ovcara?

 9        A.   When I was released, I heard that some people had survived, but

10     not that they escaped but somebody recognised them and helped them to

11     leave the area.  That's how they saved themselves.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   The article makes a reference --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, shouldn't we redact this?

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  To be on the safe side, Your Honours, maybe,

22     yes.  Yes.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Will do.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, sir --


Page 3380

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Perhaps we should go into private session for

 2     the next question.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3381











11 Pages 3381-3388 redacted. Private session.
















Page 3389

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Closed session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             Earlier the witness described how he was aware of situations


Page 3390

 1     where families had been given certain information about their missing

 2     relatives and stories that were going around where they may have been or

 3     whatnot.  The witness is aware of situations where families had been

 4     misinformed, and we have an example here, and I would like to corroborate

 5     what the witness says by illustrating it with this file, with

 6     Sinisa Glavasevic.

 7             That is the purpose of the exercise.

 8             Your Honours, and one more issue this is one of the victims

 9     obviously who are annexed to the indictment.  In the file of

10     Mr. Glavasevic is a missing person questionnaire relating to

11     Mr. Glavasevic who went missing from Ovcara on 20th of November, 1991.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             We'll take a break now and come back at 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, having heard that explanation we

18     would object to the line of inquiry being followed.  There's no

19     foundation for it.  The proposition that the Prosecution seeks to prove,

20     as they indicated before the break, was that family members had been

21     misinformed about the fate of -- of their relatives and we have an

22     example here and I would like to corroborate what the witness says by

23     illustrating it will this family.

24             Now if we go back and see what the witness said he knew, he said

25     simply in respect of the Glavasevic family:

Page 3391

 1             "A.  I had a bad feeling."

 2             Did you know what they were doing at the time?

 3             "A.  ... I did not know what they were doing but they must have

 4     been looking for answers from the authorities."

 5             There we have a supposition.

 6             Then the next question is:  Had you been in touch with the

 7     family?

 8             "A.  No, I was not in touch with them."

 9             Next question:  Did you learn about their attempts to locates

10     Sinisa Glavasevic.

11             "A.  Well, I did not know first-hand but there were rumours about

12     people, including him, I suppose.

13             Again, another supposition on his part.

14             The test, Your Honours, I would suggest is this:  Ask yourselves

15     what the cross-examination would be in respect of any answers.  I would

16     simply be asking the witness to make the same suppositions and

17     speculations as the Prosecution is asking.  And I would suggest that it

18     won't is assist Your Honours in determining the truth of these

19     suggestions by the Prosecution.

20             So on that basis we would say that this line of inquiry should

21     not be permitted.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell -- sorry, Mr. Demirdjian.

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted).  And if needs be and if more

Page 3392

 1     foundation is necessary, I can ask him to provide us with more details.

 2     His answer is there had been -- "that he had been sighted here and there.

 3     But, in reality, nothing happened.  He is still a missing person."

 4             I can see that the answer itself perhaps has not provided

 5     sufficient amount of detail.  Maybe I can go back it that.  And once we

 6     have established that, what I wish to do with these documents and this

 7     is -- and there's a number of letters that are exchanged here which we

 8     submit are an example of how families have been misled about the fact

 9     that some of these victims were alive; whereas, in fact, they were not in

10     detention.  They had been killed.  And that is the point that we wish to

11     make with -- by using the example that we have here of Mr. Glavasevic.

12     This is one exchange of letters we have.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But this -- this letter, just -- this -- this

14     letter is -- is not a letter to a family member, is it?  It's a letter

15     between government members.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  This is a letter between government

17     members, and the picture will be complete when you see the next letter

18     which refers to this one, to inquiries of the family, and the answer in

19     that letter makes it clear that this letter is absolutely wrong.  There

20     was no such detention centre.  The person was not alive, et cetera.

21             So it is -- there's a string of exchanges.  I'm showing you two,

22     three letters which, in our view, makes it complete that this is

23     completely misleading the families at the time.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Just briefly, of course the Prosecution can make

25     all these arguments and submissions at the appropriate time and with the


Page 3393

 1     appropriate witness.  The question is whether anything the Prosecution

 2     has just told you would be assisted by this witness.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, we would ask you to move on to

 5     another topic or -- but this line of questioning, indeed, will not assist

 6     the Trial Chamber.

 7             Now, this being said, do you keep track of the time you use with

 8     the witness?

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  We are a little bit

10     overboard but I have one last topic to cover with him.

11             May I be permitted to return to the example of his family, to

12     explore that a little more, putting aside this document?

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, you may.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

15             And while the witness is being brought in, I have been informed

16     that the two videos we had marked for identification yesterday, which are

17     P1401 and 1402, the transcripts have now been connected with the video.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  They are admitted then.  So the marked for

19     identification status is lifted.

20             The witness may be brought in, in closed session, please.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 3394

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] thank you.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   You told us that if there were answers they were always

20     different.  Are you aware of the substance of these answers?

21        A.   No, I'm not aware of all the answers, or at least not in their

22     totality, because the answers were provided to his family members.

23        Q.   And did his family members inform you of where these answers were

24     coming from?

25        A.   No, I can't remember where they came from.  But I know that the


Page 3395

 1     answers could not be checked.  They were confusing, and, if anything,

 2     they amounted to mere rumours.

 3        Q.   Before I conclude my examination, I would like you to look at one

 4     last image, which is 65 ter 2877, at tab 19.  And I'd like us to, once it

 5     comes up, to go to page 27.

 6             Sir, do you recognise this area?

 7        A.   Bear with me, please.

 8             Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Could you tell the Courts what are we -- what we're looking at.

10        A.   We are looking at the area around the Ovcara agriculture farm.

11        Q.   With the assistance of the usher, could we -- could I ask you to

12     mark this image.

13             Now, first of all, can you tell us, on -- in this area of Ovcara,

14     what do we see exactly?

15        A.   We see the farm itself, and we also see the place where the mass

16     grave is, and that was subsequently established.

17        Q.   And are you able to see the hangar where you were held in, on the

18     20th of November, 1991?

19        A.   I can't see it too clearly, but I -- yes, I do get glimpses of

20     it.

21        Q.   Do you see the general area of the hangar?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   Can you put a circle around that general area and put the letter

24     A next to it.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 3396

 1        Q.   And could you show us the road taken by the truck before you

 2     jumped out of it.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And with the letter B, could you indicate the location where you

 5     jumped out.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And with another line, with the letter C, could you show us from

 8     where the buses had arrived on that day?  From which road they had

 9     arrived to the hangar.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I ask to tender that image, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 27 of the 65 ter document 2877 marked by the

15     witness shall be assigned Exhibit P1407.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

18        Q.   Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That is all I ask, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Gosnell, are you able to cross-examine?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I would request that adjournment of

23     some period to prepare further.  I -- I know that this is the second time

24     this has happened.  It's -- it's very unfortunate.  I see that an e-mail

25     has come in just ten minutes ago saying that Mr. Zivanovic has been


Page 3397

 1     discharged.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's good news.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. Zivanovic had prepared to cross-examine this

 4     witness.  This morning, I have been preparing to take up that

 5     cross-examination.  I don't think it would be a lengthy cross-examination

 6     or a particularly complex cross-examination, but I do feel that I need a

 7     bit more time to prepare.  So I would -- I would be in your hands as to

 8     what is logistically feasible in terms of perhaps adjourning until this

 9     afternoon or other options.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, or Mr. Stringer, do we have a

11     witness to continue with today?

12             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, unfortunately, the next witness,

13     he's here, but we're not able to begin his testimony today.  I should add

14     that it's a been who has been rescheduled several times already and it

15     would be extremely problematic for us to send him home without

16     testifying.

17             I spoke with Mr. Gosnell about this briefly.  If there was some

18     way to have an adjournment that would enable Mr. Gosnell to prepare but

19     to then continue with the cross-examination today, even if it meant that

20     perhaps we went until 3.00 instead of 2.00 or some period beyond 2.00 so

21     that we can try as best we can to stay on pace so that the witnesses to

22     follow, both of whom are here, won't have to be sent home until some

23     later time.

24             So no objection to granting some time to counsel to prepare, but

25     if we could reconvene later today and perhaps go beyond 2.00 to recapture

Page 3398

 1     that time, we would be most grateful.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think it would be better for all concerned ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, we're looking at the possibilities

 6     here.  Would it be possible to have the witness after the next break for

 7     one session?  The next witness, I mean.  Or would even that be

 8     problematic?

 9             MR. STRINGER:  I've been inquiring -- it's problematic.  He's not

10     even dressed for court.  Not that that's the most important factor, but

11     it presents a lot of issues, unfortunately, for us.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Then what we would suggest for different

13     reasons is that we adjourn for the day.  We start cross-examination

14     tomorrow morning at 9.00.  By that time, Mr. Gosnell will be prepared, or

15     perhaps Mr. Zivanovic will be able to do it.  And if we have -- well,

16     probably we will, the -- the extra time we -- we -- we take in the

17     afternoon, we wouldn't take today but tomorrow then.

18             And then everything can fall into place and -- and we finish the

19     two other witnesses by Friday normal time.

20             MR. STRINGER:  We'd be grateful, and that's certainly a very good

21     outcome from our perspective, Your Honour.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  We're very grateful for that, Mr. President.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

25             Mr. Witness, we would suggest that you come tomorrow morning at

Page 3399

 1     9.00.  Would that be okay with you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that will be okay.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             Just one moment, please.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is -- Judge Mindua has a question for you,

 7     Mr. Witness.

 8             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness.  Before we adjourn

 9     today, before we adjourn for today, there is something I don't quite

10     understand -- arrested at the Vukovar hospital.  You were taken prisoner

11     there.

12             The JNA forces occupied the time -- the town at the -- at the

13     time.  You were then taken to a hangar at Ovcara.

14             Today, on page 6, you stated that you jumped out of the vehicle

15     in which you were being transported in the direction of the farm of

16     Grabovo.  You jumped out of the vehicle because you were afraid for your

17     life.

18             Therefore, could you please explain why you decided to go back to

19     Vukovar and to be captured by the JNA reservists there in the village of

20     Ceric?

21             Is there an explanation that you can provide?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do my best.

23             First of all, I did not jump out of the bus.  The bus was all

24     enclosed, and the bus took us to the hangar.  We spent a certain time in

25     the hangar, and then we were transported by a different vehicle, by a


Page 3400

 1     different -- by a military vehicle.  And then we left the hangar in that

 2     vehicle, and when we started travelling towards the site of crime, I

 3     jumped out, and then I headed in the direction of Vukovar.  I did not

 4     return to Vukovar.  I was headed in the direction of Vukovar and to the

 5     area that I deemed was free at the time, and that was the area of

 6     Vinkovci.  Ultimately, I wanted to join my family.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Now I understand the

 8     logic of the whole matter better.

 9             But I would like to be more precise.  And you -- I would like to

10     say that you jumped out of the vehicle that was taking you to Grabovo.  I

11     did not mention the word "bus."  I mentioned the word "military vehicle."

12             Thank you very much.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I understand.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So this is the end for today, Mr. Witness.  The

15     court usher will escort you out of the court as soon as we are in closed

16     session.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 3401

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry, Mr. Stringer.  There's something in

 6     the way.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Yeah.  The pillar has its uses at certain times,

 8     if you want to hide from the Judges, but it's hard to be seen when you're

 9     wanting to get their attention.

10             If it's possible for counsel, because we're going to have send a

11     new witness production schedule across to the Victims and Witness Unit

12     about when the witnesses should be brought here tomorrow, and if -- if --

13     if they know before the end of the day today how much time they're going

14     to need for cross, that would enable us to get more accurate information

15     on the witness transportation for tomorrow.  So we'd be grateful if --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So rather than COB it would be ASAP.  Thank you,

17     Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  We'll do our best, Mr. President.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.29 a.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of

22                           March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.