Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3797

 1                           Thursday, 11 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances, please,

11     starting with the Prosecution.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

13     the Prosecution Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett, Thomas Laugel, and

14     Kai Leung.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

17     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness may be brought in.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20                           WITNESS:  VISNJA BILIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Madam Bilic.  I would remind you

23     that you are still under oath.

24             Mr. Gillett.

25             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.


Page 3798

 1                           Examination by Mr. Gillett:  [Continued]

 2        Q.   Now, yesterday when we left off we were discussing the

 3     United Nations report which is 65 ter 5499, and you have already

 4     explained that the bodies mentioned at paragraph 348, at Velepromet, are

 5     the same ones that you discussed earlier that were moved to the new

 6     cemetery in Vukovar.  So that answers my final question on that document.

 7             MR. GILLET:  And at this stage we'd tender that 65 ter document

 8     5499, which is the United Nations report.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 5499 shall be assigned

11     Exhibit P1513, Your Honours.  Thank you.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, my final question, Ms. Bilic, in your expert report at

14     section 15, you describe mass graves as places where three or more

15     victims are illegally buried without markings or measures or respect for

16     the remains.  In the report you then also go on to talk about people

17     exhumed from individual graves, and I'm wondering, what were these

18     individual graves like typically?

19        A.   When it comes to individual graves, we're talking about places

20     from which the mortal remains of one or two persons were exhumed.  In a

21     majority of those cases, those places were not marked as places of

22     burial.  Also, there was no documentation about the persons whose mortal

23     remains were buried in those individual graves.

24        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Bilic.

25             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, those -- that completes my questions


Page 3799

 1     on direct examination.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Zivanovic for cross.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, are Ms. Bilic.  My name is

 7     Zoran Zivanovic, and I represent Goran Hadzic in these proceedings.  I

 8     have a few questions about your report, which is P1490.  We'll start with

 9     chapter 1.

10             In that report you say that in 1991 a commission was set up for

11     dealing with people who were taken prisoner of war during the conflict.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And that -- that commission in 1993 merged with the other

14     commission and formed a new commission for detainees and missing persons.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the way I understand from your CV, it seems that in 1993, you

17     joined the work of that commission which subsequently changed names and

18     finally was given the name that it nowadays bears.

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   Can you now tell me, please, according to the definition of the

21     commission that I mentioned first, who did that commission consider a

22     prisoner of war?

23        A.   Detainees or prisoners of wars were those persons who were

24     detained during the homeland war, i.e., those persons who were in

25     prisons, camps, and detention facilities.

Page 3800

 1        Q.   When you say in prisons, camps, and other such places, do you

 2     also imply, do you also comprise such prisons and detention camps in

 3     Croatia?

 4        A.   The aforementioned commission primarily dealt with the exchanges

 5     of prisoners, which means that within the purview of that commission,

 6     there were also exchanges of those persons who were detained at holding

 7     centres in the Republic of Croatia as well as those who were kept in

 8     prisons and detention camps in the previously occupied territories of the

 9     Republic of Croatia in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and in Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Does that mean that the commission was also an institution that

12     had authority in the non-occupied part of the Republic of Croatia where

13     detainees had been kept by the Croatian armed forces during the conflict?

14        A.   As I've already told you, the main task of that commission was to

15     organise exchanges of prisoners on both sides.  At this moment I don't

16     have in front of me the decree on the setting up and the purview of the

17     commission, so I'm not sure whether the commission was authorised to

18     control the treatment of prisoners of war in the prisons and holding

19     centres in the Republic of Croatia.  However, I know for a fact that the

20     commission did not keep records of those persons who were under the

21     authority of the Republic of Croatia in respect of the armed conflicts.

22        Q.   Did the commission carry out searches of persons who were

23     considered prisoners of war and of whom it was thought that they were

24     kept in such prisons?

25        A.   That was the purview of -- of the commission for searching

Page 3801

 1     missing persons.  The other commissions that -- the second commission

 2     that you mentioned at the beginning.  In 1993 those two commissions were

 3     merged, and they continued functioning as one body which became a

 4     commission of the government of Croatia for missing persons and now --

 5     and nowadays this is the administration for missing and detainees.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you, you personally, were you involved in the problem

 7     of searching for persons who went missing and who may have been detained

 8     in the territory of the Republic of Croatia?

 9        A.   From 1993 when I started dealing with these tasks, I was involved

10     in all of the tasks that had to do with the searches for missing persons,

11     including such persons for which there was some indicia that they may

12     have gone missing in the territory of the Republic of Croatia

13     irrespective of where that may have happened.

14        Q.   That means even those that may have been captured by the Croatian

15     armed forces?

16        A.   Yes, that would have included them as well.

17        Q.   Could you please tell me within the framework of your tasks and

18     duties, did you communicate, did you visit prisons and other such places

19     where such persons were detained?

20        A.   I never visited prisons or any other places where prisoners of

21     war were accommodated or detained.  Prisons and similar places and

22     supervision thereof was carried out by the International Commission of

23     the Red Cross in the Republic of Croatia which had such a mandate.  They

24     identified the situation, and they reported to the Administration for

25     Detainees and Missing Persons.

Page 3802

 1        Q.   If I understood you, the Administration for Detainees and Missing

 2     Persons communicated with the prisons in Croatia, or as you call it, the

 3     non-occupied part of Croatia, only through that international

 4     organisation and not directly.

 5        A.   The Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons did not

 6     communicate with prisons and holding centres individually.  It

 7     communicated with the authorised administration in the

 8     Ministry of Justice which had authority over prisons; i.e., with the

 9     Ministry of Defence which had authority over holding centres for

10     prisoners of war.  The Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons

11     did not have any contacts nor did it have the need to communicate with

12     prisons and holding centres.  As I've already told you, it was the

13     committee of the Red Cross that supervised the treatment of prisoners of

14     war in such facilities.

15        Q.   In chapter 2, you spoke about the authorities and competencies of

16     the administration.  You mentioned all of those territorial authorities,

17     and I noticed that one of them were exhumations and identifications of

18     mortal remains.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   I have read all of the decisions that concern the organisation

21     and jurisdiction of the commission from 1991 onwards, and I noticed that

22     one thing missing and that's autopsies.  That was never part of the

23     commission's jurisdiction.  Why is that?

24        A.   In this specific case, we're talking about a very professional

25     work that is carried out by competent scientific institutions on behalf

Page 3803

 1     of the administration.  The administration for detainees and missing

 2     signed an agreement with competent scientific and medical institutions

 3     which then carry out that part of expert activities on behalf of the

 4     Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons.

 5        Q.   I agree with your position that this is a very highly specialised

 6     activity.  However, it is also my impression that this highly specialised

 7     activity should involve the identification of missing persons,

 8     particularly when it comes to DNA analysis.  How come identifications are

 9     within the purview of the administration and autopsies are not?

10        A.   Yes, autopsies are within the purview of the administration,

11     because the administration carries out a series of activities that

12     concern the identification of mortal remains.  It organises or rather it

13     organised the collection of ante-mortem information.  It organised

14     collection of post-mortem information.  It collects operative information

15     about the possible identity of those persons.  It collects referential

16     samples for DNA analysis.  The administration also carries out

17     preliminary identification of mortal remains.  The administration also

18     organises the final identification of mortal remains.  It maintains

19     records of all the identified persons, and finally it collects and merges

20     all the documents concerning all the identifications.  Autopsies are

21     therefore an integral part of forensic processing of mortal remains, and

22     that documentation is also stored by the Administration for Detainees and

23     Missing Persons.

24             I apologise.  When it comes to the final identification of mortal

25     remains, an activity that is co-ordinated and organised by the

Page 3804

 1     administration for detainees, and missing persons is something that is

 2     carried out by competent scientific and medical institutions in

 3     co-operation with the victims' families.

 4        Q.   Could you just clarify this part of your answer where you said

 5     that the administration carries out preliminary identifications.  What is

 6     that supposed to mean?

 7        A.   That means the following:  Regarding all missing persons, the

 8     administration has in its position ante-mortem data, data concerning the

 9     life of the person.  After the processing of mortal remains, the mortal

10     remains are delivered to the Administration for Detainees and Missing

11     Persons.  The administration compares ante-mortem data with post-mortem

12     data and compares them with the circumstances of the finding of the

13     mortal remains and other operative information, and in that way it

14     narrows down a short list of persons to whom these mortal remains could

15     belong.  This information is then delivered to the competent scientific

16     and medical persons for them to determine how well founded or not these

17     assumptions are.  After that, families are invited for identification

18     with a proviso that, as I wrote in my report, currently all mortal

19     remains are subjected to DNA analysis.

20        Q.   I would like to somehow establish the scope of your examination.

21     In view of your training as described in your CV, to what extent are you

22     able to answer individual questions concerning autopsies, DNA analysis,

23     exhumations, et cetera?  In other words, I listened yesterday to your

24     testimony wherein you gave us collective information about all these

25     things and described what is written in those findings.  That's something

Page 3805

 1     we can see for ourselves.  But I'm interested, for instance, are you able

 2     to answer questions that concern a specific autopsy report?  Why, for

 3     instance, the conclusion is what it is about the cause of death, let's

 4     say, the time of death, et cetera?

 5        A.   Regarding questions concerning autopsy reports and their

 6     findings, I cannot answer them.  I can answer questions concerning

 7     organisational aspects, the methodology of the work of the Administration

 8     for Detainees and Missing Persons, and the results of our work.  As for

 9     medical findings, this is a very technical job that is within the

10     competence of forensic medics, and I believe you had an expert witness

11     here who testified about this and that was Professor Davor Strinovic.

12        Q.   That is correct, but he told us that he could only answer

13     questions concerning autopsy reports that he did himself, not reports

14     made by others.  But I understand your answer, and it's all perfectly

15     clear.  Would you just tell me, does the same apply to --

16             MR. GILLETT:  Sorry to interrupt.  I don't recall at this stage

17     Dr. Strinovic limiting himself to only reports that he had personally

18     conducted, and I believe if you look at the reports that were admitted

19     through him, there were a number that were conducted by other persons.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I put this question to Dr. Strinovic in my

21     cross-examination, and I cannot say what was part of transcript, but

22     during the break I could identify it.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Would you be kind to tell me one more thing.  Does the same apply

Page 3806

 1     to DNA analysis and their findings; for instance, why a person has been

 2     identified in precisely that way based on the material that was gathered,

 3     or would you be also unable to answer questions about DNA?

 4        A.   Of course I can't answer questions about that part of the work.

 5     I can only speak about organisational aspects and results.

 6        Q.   You said yesterday that you attended a certain number of

 7     exhumations on the ground, and I wanted to ask did you have an active

 8     role on those sites where exhumations were conducted, or were you just an

 9     observer?

10        A.   In view of the fact that the Administration for Detainees and

11     Missing Persons organises exhumations and co-ordinates the participants

12     in the process, of course, I, as an officer of this administration,

13     played an active part.

14        Q.   Could you just describe that role that you had?  I'm talking

15     about the work on exhumation sites.

16        A.   I'm talking about communication with other participants in the

17     process of exhumations, with representatives of international

18     organisation, as well as representatives of the competent bodies in

19     charge of searching for missing persons from Bosnia and Herzegovina and

20     the Republic of Serbia who in some cases also attended the exhumations.

21     Furthermore, my role also involved sometimes collecting additional

22     information from families of people suspected of being in the graves,

23     et cetera.

24        Q.   Did family members of the potential victims attend the

25     exhumations themselves?

Page 3807

 1        A.   In most cases, no, except at one stage where identifications of

 2     mortal remains were carried out on exhumation sites themselves or when

 3     personal items were displayed on site for purposes of identification.

 4     That was the case of Vukovar, the new cemetery, and Bacin Skela where

 5     some mortal remains were identified on site.  Then in a certain number of

 6     cases of those found in Brkus [phoen], Sarvis Dol [phoen], and Bilje, I

 7     believe.

 8        Q.   You mentioned the new cemetery at Vukovar.  You said, if I'm not

 9     mistaken, yesterday that that was a secondary grave, that some mortal

10     remains from Velepromet were reburied there.  They were reburied at the

11     new cemetery in Vukovar in December.

12        A.   Vukovar, the new cemetery, is a very particular grave.  In a way

13     it can be treated as a secondary grave because that's where mortal

14     remains from Velepromet were transferred there in 19 cases,

15     Trpinjska Cesta 11 cases, Galisov Dol [phoen] 28 cases, Petrovacki Atar,

16     36 cases.  However, in addition to those mortal remains transferred for

17     primary graves, there were also mortal remains in the Vukovar new

18     cemetery of people found in the streets of Vukovar, found in the area of

19     Bogdanovci, a total of 938.

20        Q.   You mentioned yesterday -- you listed, rather, the organisations

21     with whom your administration co-operates for the purpose of determining

22     whether the missing persons on your list are still missing.  That's page

23     3756 of the transcript.  And I noted that in listing all these

24     organisations you did not mention courts.  Does it mean you have no such

25     communication with courts in Croatia, of course?

Page 3808

 1        A.   We have communication with courts in Croatia and we have very

 2     close co-operation with courts considering that all exhumations of mortal

 3     remains that are carried out are carried out pursuant to a court order.

 4     However, in the part of the work that concerns checking and

 5     cross-checking records, I must admit that we did not take advantage of

 6     this mechanism, and I'm not really sure how useful that mechanism would

 7     be in determining whether a person is possibly alive or not when we have

 8     at our disposal other mechanisms and other sources of information that

 9     are up-to-date and of very high quality.

10        Q.   I had occasion to take a look at certain Croatian regulations

11     that concern declaring missing persons dead, and I see that it is within

12     the jurisdiction of courts.  I'll show you one decision that proves that,

13     which is 1D273 from our list.  You will see it on the screen presently.

14     It concerns a person.  It doesn't have to be broadcast.  I'm not sure to

15     what extent this needs to be public.  We will see the translation

16     presently as well.

17             You see, this is a ruling of the Municipal Court in Vukovar

18     declaring or establishing that a certain person is dead.  The ruling also

19     establishes the date of death, and we see from this that it is the court

20     in Vukovar that has jurisdiction over establishing somebody's death and

21     the date of their death.  That's why I wanted to ask you, do you know out

22     of all those persons that the administration found to be dead, how many

23     have been actually declared dead by a court ruling?

24        A.   I do not know how many of them have been declared dead by a court

25     decision, but it is a fact that some have been declared dead for the

Page 3809

 1     purposes of allowing families to exercise their rights.  The families,

 2     for instance, are unable to treat issues of marital status or issues of

 3     inheritance as long as a person is on record as missing.  That's why in

 4     some cases families instituted proceedings before a court to have a

 5     person declared dead.

 6             This document illustrates this very well.  This concerns a

 7     certain Niko Soljic who was declared dead by a court ruling so that the

 8     family can exercise some of its rights, but the fact is that we took over

 9     the mortal remains of Niko Soljic from Sremska Mitrovica in 1999 or year

10     2000, considerably after he was declared dead by a court decision.

11        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you.  I'm not specifically interested in

12     that -- this person, and we don't have to go into so much detail.  I just

13     wanted to illustrate by showing this document that it is the courts,

14     actually, that declare a certain person dead, and as you say, it's for

15     the purpose of allowing families to exercise their rights to benefits and

16     other rights.  And I believe that for these purposes, it matters only --

17     not only that the person is dead but also to establish the date of death

18     as is the case here.  So I'd like to know whether and how your commission

19     or administration established the date of death.

20        A.   The administration didn't establish the date of death.  The date

21     of death is indicated in the declaration or certificate of death issued

22     by the competent scientific medical institution.

23             In a case such as this where we have court proceedings involved,

24     it is the court that determines the date of death.  And if you allow me

25     to comment on this case, this case proves exactly what I've been saying.

Page 3810

 1     In some cases, although it is not in dispute that persons were missing,

 2     families had them declared dead in order to be able to exercise certain

 3     rights, and they did so before a court of law.

 4        Q.   I understood yesterday that all persons who were missing and who

 5     were declared dead, at least I believe that was your evidence, and you

 6     will correct me if I am wrong, I believe you said all of them had certain

 7     rights, all those persons who went missing in the armed conflict and were

 8     later found to be dead, except there was a distinction between defenders

 9     and civilians in terms of rights.  So I concluded that all the people who

10     applied before a court to have a family member declared dead also had a

11     vested interest in having them declared dead, regardless of the fact that

12     somebody was a defender and somebody was a civilian.

13        A.   In most cases what was at issue was inheritance, and that does

14     not depend on the status of the person because both families of civilians

15     and families of defenders have the same rights as far as inheritance is

16     concerned.  So the families are not interested in having somebody

17     declared dead in terms of status.  It usually concerns an issue of

18     marital status or inheritance.  For instance, the spouse of a missing

19     person cannot remarry until her husband is declared dead; that is to say,

20     until the moment he has been found and identified.

21        Q.   In other words, are you saying that one can exercise those

22     rights, that family members can exercise their rights irrespective of the

23     status of the missing persons, be it civilian or a defendant and that it

24     don't have to be based on a court ruling?

25        A.   I apologise.  I don't understand your question.  I'm not sure

Page 3811

 1     that I understand you.

 2        Q.   Let me repeat.  Does this mean that the families of missing

 3     persons could exercise their rights even without a court ruling that that

 4     missing person died?

 5        A.   You mean in the matters of inheritance or marital status?

 6        Q.   No, I don't mean inheritance matters.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the counsel be advised

 8     not to overlap because we won't be able to interpret.  Could the witness

 9     start from the beginning.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Bilic, you are -- you and Mr. Zivanovic are

11     overlapping and that causes a problem for the interpreters.  Could you

12     start again your answer to Mr. Zivanovic's last question, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  We're talking about

14     the following:  According to the laws which are in effect in the Republic

15     of Croatia, including the law on the rights of homeland war veterans and

16     the law on the rights of military and civilian invalids of war, which

17     deals with the status rights of civilians, prescribe certain rights which

18     may be exercised by the families of those persons which are considered

19     missing.

20             A special category are the rights of those persons who have been

21     declared dead or killed.  Within their scope, the rights of the families

22     of the missing persons are almost identical to the rights of those who

23     have been declared dead or killed.  This means that from the aspect of

24     the rights that arise from the death of their families, the families are

25     not motivated to have the missing persons declared dead, if not from the

Page 3812

 1     aspect of those rights that I previously mentioned, and those are the

 2     inheritance rights and marital matters.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, yesterday you spoke about the

 4     questionnaire, and you said that you participated in its drafting -- or,

 5     rather, in its design, and that you also participated in the training of

 6     the personnel that collected information about the missing persons.  That

 7     is on page 3755 of yesterday's transcript.

 8             Could you please tell us whether those questionnaires were filled

 9     out by family members personally, those who were looking for their

10     members of family, or were those questionnaires filled out by those

11     persons who had been trained to collect information?

12        A.   The information was collected by the trained personnel of the

13     Red Cross.  It was within their job description to possess knowledge,

14     know-how and experience in communicating with the families of the missing

15     persons.  The questionnaires we filled out based on the information which

16     was provided to them by people searching for their family members.  Every

17     questionnaire had to be signed by the family to confirm the accuracy of

18     the information contained therein.  Questionnaires were also signed by

19     the officials of the Croatian Red Cross that filled out those

20     questionnaires.

21        Q.   This means that the questionnaires were filled out by people who

22     were trained to fill them out.

23        A.   They had to have undergone training.

24        Q.   And you participated in that training?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 3813

 1        Q.   On line 1 -- could you please look at P2324, a Prosecution

 2     exhibit.  While we are waiting for the document to appear, as far as I

 3     could understand you, yesterday you stated that the administration

 4     searched for all the citizens of Croatia who had gone missing in armed

 5     conflict irrespective of their ethnic background or religious

 6     affiliation; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   It seems that the two pages done not correspond to each other,

 9     i.e., the translation that we see on the screen does not correspond to

10     the B/C/S original.  Could we perhaps go to the following page, maybe

11     that will help, or perhaps even one page further.  Let's go to the

12     following page quickly.  Now we have both versions.

13             Could you please tell me, when it comes to this questionnaire,

14     how come -- what was the reason why ethnic background was included in it?

15     How would such information be of help in searching for a living person

16     and especially of a dead person?

17        A.   As I've already told you yesterday, information on ethnic

18     background was considered general information.  This is customary

19     information normally used in questionnaires.  It is even used by the

20     International Committee of the Red Cross.  I apologise.  When we're

21     talking about the design of the questionnaire, you will find it in my

22     report, and I testified to that effect yesterday, that in designing it we

23     used the questionnaire produced by the United Nations Centre for Human

24     Rights, the search centre, and the ICRC questionnaire.  That

25     questionnaire which was our starting point in designing our own

Page 3814

 1     questionnaire also contains information about ethnic background, the

 2     ethnic background of the missing person.

 3        Q.   In other words, in was taken over from the form used by the ICRC?

 4        A.   Amongst other institutions that use such questionnaires.  The

 5     ICRC is one of them.

 6        Q.   What about item 14?  Was that also taken over from that same

 7     questionnaire?

 8        A.   I'm not sure, but I don't think so.

 9        Q.   Why then was that included in this form, because I don't see how

10     this can help in searching for a missing person or somebody's mortal

11     remains?

12        A.   I agree with you.  I agree with you, but at that moment it was

13     included.  I really can't remember what were the underlying motives 20

14     years ago to have it included, but I agree with you that it really cannot

15     help the search process.  The only thing I can say is that I absolutely

16     do not remember any case where religion was used.  It was never analysed.

17     It was never used.

18        Q.   When you say that this information was never used or analysed, do

19     you mean that the administration has never used it or analysed it, or do

20     you have in mind some other bodies?

21        A.   I mean that in general terms this was not done.  The missing

22     person dossiers are stored in the files of the Administration of

23     Detainees and Missing Persons, and this is the only institution that

24     these files are available, accessible to -- anybody else who wants to get

25     hold of the information has to file a request to the Administration for

Page 3815

 1     Detainees and Missing Persons and explain the reasons for which the

 2     information from those files will be used.  I guarantee you that the

 3     information on religious affiliations have never been used or analysed by

 4     anybody.

 5        Q.   Can we now go to the following page.  Please look at item 18, the

 6     questionnaire entry number 18.  Question 18 concerns the affiliation of

 7     the missing persons to an armed formation.  There's a list of seven --

 8     seven armed formations listed under (a) through (g).

 9             What I would like to know is this:  How were your staff trained

10     to be able to identify whether the missing person in question belonged to

11     one of the seven formations that are listed in here?

12        A.   The information on the status of missing persons were collected

13     by the ICRC members based on the information provided by the victim's

14     family.  In other words, the source of such information were the missing

15     persons' families.

16        Q.   Tell me, within the framework of the examiners' training, were

17     they told how to differentiate between the seven military formations?

18        A.   No, no.  They relied on the families statements.  Our staff were

19     not educated about that.  The only logical thing was to instruct them to

20     encircle the answer provided to them by the family.

21        Q.   Can we look at chapter 2 on the same page.  Let's look at item 8.

22     That's question 8.  It concerns forcible abduction and who did it, and on

23     the following page you see all the options.  I believe that there is a

24     total of six possible options or ways to answer that question.  Or even

25     more, perhaps even seven or eight.

Page 3816

 1             How, if at all, were people who collected data educated and

 2     trained?  How did they instruct the families as to how to identify, how

 3     to distinguish between these categories?  For example, a JNA member, on

 4     the one hand, and a member of the Territorial Defence of the JNA on the

 5     other hand?

 6        A.   Just like in the case of the previous question, the source of

 7     such information were families and the information that they were privy

 8     to.  The officials of the Red Cross staff did not instruct families how

 9     to distinguish between those people who may have participated in the

10     abduction.  What we envisage here is the most predictable answers.  The

11     information on who was responsible for the disappearance or a forcible

12     abduction was provided by the families based on the information that they

13     had.

14        Q.   You see, in some cases when you look at these questionnaires, you

15     see that family members even pointed to some very specific persons who

16     abducted their family members.  In many other situations they simply said

17     paramilitaries, civilians, or something along those lines.

18             What I would like to know is whether trainers were expected to

19     explain the difference to help them answer this question; for example,

20     could they be more specific and say that their family member was abducted

21     by a person wearing partly military, partly civilian uniform?

22        A.   Both families and ICRC staff could opt out from this question if

23     they couldn't answer it.  If they knew, when they knew, who was

24     responsible for forcible abduction, in those cases they could provide an

25     answer.  Like you said it yourself, in those questionnaires that you

Page 3817

 1     inspected, very often you have seen that the information does not have

 2     that information, that they don't know the persons who carried out the

 3     forcible abduction, and they leave out question number 2 where it says

 4     say what you know about the aforementioned persons.

 5        Q.   When you worded those questions, what was expected under the

 6     suggestion that one's family member was taken away by a member of secret

 7     services?  How could they have known that?

 8        A.   I don't know.  There are various options.  Many possibilities are

 9     given.  I don't even remember a single answer where that was encircled.

10     However, we try to envisage a variety of possibilities in order to

11     facilitate choices.

12        Q.   Based on these questionnaires, those that were filled out, did

13     the administration carry out any checks of the data thus received from

14     those who were looking for their family members?

15        A.   In what regard or in what part?

16        Q.   Any.

17        A.   That's a very broad question.  Of course the administration

18     carried out checks on different occasions regarding the list of missing

19     persons itself which was being created based on these questionnaires.

20     Next, checks were carried out in terms of family members pertaining to

21     the part which refers to family and educational status.  Information was

22     collected and kept up-to-date as regards their residence, which was also

23     necessary in order to take their blood samples and to organise the final

24     stage of identification.  Furthermore, checks were also carried out to

25     obtain medical documentation in the medical institutions where the

Page 3818

 1     families had mentioned the medical records of those missing could be

 2     found.  So certain checks were done that could have a specific impact on

 3     resolving the cases of missing persons.  They have been carried out, and

 4     they still are.

 5        Q.   Since we don't have any information about those checks, or at

 6     least for many of the people, I'll address that topic separately.

 7             Now, tell me this, please:  What was the date that was taken as

 8     the date of disappearance if it was used as the date of death?

 9        A.   I have told you already that we did not determine nor do we

10     determine the date of death.  It comes from the report on the fact of

11     death issued by the competent medical institution and court decision.

12             As regards the date of disappearance, perhaps if we can go one

13     page back in the questionnaire and then I can tell you precisely what

14     number it is.

15        Q.   Can we go one page back, please, then.

16        A.   As the date of disappearance, we relied on the piece of

17     information stated in question number 1 in the second set of information,

18     that is to say information on abduction, disappearance, or capture of the

19     person sought.

20        Q.   In a number cases I could observe that that information differed

21     from the information collected on when the person was last seen alive.  I

22     think -- well, I don't know what page this is, but I think it was on the

23     page after that.

24        A.   It was on page 4 or 5.

25        Q.   That is in the B/C/S text.  I think in the English it is on page

Page 3819

 1     5.  Yes.  Item 21.

 2        A.   I think another question from the previous page also refers to

 3     that.

 4        Q.   That may well be.  Let's see.  No.  It's probably page 4 in

 5     English?

 6        A.   Regardless, I can try to answer.  It has to do with the fact that

 7     the questionnaire was drafted in late 1993, and information was gathered

 8     in early 1994, which is over two years after most of these people

 9     disappeared -- or, rather, most of the forcible removals had taken place

10     at that time.

11             Having in mind that the families in the meantime undertook

12     certain measures themselves, talking to different witnesses, and given

13     the fact that they obtained certain information, we envisaged an entire

14     set of questions pertaining to when the missing person was last seen

15     alive.  The families cited all information they had available, for the

16     most part not citing the reliability of their sources.  In most cases,

17     such information, unfortunately, were not useful in the process of

18     tracing, such as information when people tried to find their family

19     members by showing the photographs of their missing family members, and

20     then people will tell them, "Yes, I saw him there at that time."

21             In a small number of cases such information did indeed prove to

22     be true, but we could only establish that once the case file was actually

23     closed.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, you mentioned some specific cases; inter

25     alia, you said that only recently the identity of Haso Brajic has been

Page 3820

 1     established, whose mortal remains were allegedly found in Celije.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Can you explain why it took 15 years to establish this person's

 4     identity?

 5        A.   I'll try to.  The person in question resided in the Republic of

 6     Croatia, in Osijek.  Haso Brajic was married, but he and his wife did not

 7     have children.  By -- well, Haso Brajic hailed from Bosnia.  His

 8     relatives, that is to say sisters and family members, that we had no

 9     information whatsoever at the time, moved elsewhere during the war.  The

10     mortal remains were treated by DNA method, but we did not have reference

11     samples.  Thus we had nothing to compare the mortal remains to.  We asked

12     for assistance of the competent bodies in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

13     ascertaining the places of residence of his relatives and kin.  The

14     moment we received such information, we asked for the assistance of the

15     International Commission for Missing Persons, who is otherwise our

16     partner in the process of identification.  They took blood samples from

17     the found family members.  By virtue of comparing them to the mortal

18     remains, it was established that there was a match.  It was established

19     that the mortal remains found in Celije were those of Haso Brajic.

20        Q.   As regards the time of his death, was it ascertained by the

21     administration?

22        A.   The administration did not deal with that.  It only had the date

23     of his disappearance at its disposal.

24        Q.   Can we look at Exhibit 1964 from the Prosecution list.  It is the

25     questionnaire for Haso Brajic.  Can we look at page 10 in the English and

Page 3821

 1     page 8 in the B/C/S version.  Sorry, I don't think it is the page.

 2     Perhaps it is page 18 in B/C/S.  No.  No.  Page 10.  Sorry.  We need to

 3     go back to the page that was on the screen a moment ago.  That's the

 4     right beige in the B/C/S version.  I'm just verifying the page in the

 5     English.  I think it's the next page in English.  Yes.  That's it.  We

 6     have it all.

 7             If you look at under (c), was the person sought ever treated in a

 8     medical institution.  You can see there that Haso Brajic was treated in

 9     the general hospital in Osijek in 1992 and 1993.  At the pulmonary

10     department in Osijek also in 1992 and 1993.  On the other hand, we have

11     information that he went missing in 1991, in September.  That kind of

12     data raises doubts as to his identification, in my view.

13             I wanted to ask you this:  Given the fact that we do not have any

14     official information on his identification and we cannot explain how that

15     person ended up in Celije allegedly in that mass grave, although he

16     seemed to have been in Osijek in 1992 and 1993, does the administration,

17     given its policy of keeping that material, those documents, allow for any

18     checks to be carried out in cases of identifications such as this one?

19        A.   I apologise.  First of all, I'd like to ask if we could go back

20     to page 2 in this questionnaire for Haso Brajic.

21             Yes.  The date of disappearance, it is stated unknown.  Can we go

22     to page 8.  I just wanted to make sure whether his family or his wife

23     ever mentioned any dates.

24             Sorry, not page 8.  Page 4, where we have information on when the

25     person was seen for the last time.

Page 3822

 1             Yes.  If we look at number 29:  Are there any circumstances

 2     indicating that the missing person was killed or perished?  And it is

 3     stated "yes."  A newspaper article dated the 22nd of April, 1992, from

 4     the "Glas Slavonije" newspaper is cited.  From this I conclude that his

 5     wife, when providing information on his treatment in Osijek in the

 6     hospital, she probably simply made a mistake.  I apologise.  That's what

 7     my conclusion is, because if we here have an article published on

 8     April 22, 1992, and it indicates that Haso Brajic may have been killed or

 9     perished, then it can only logically be concluded that there was a simple

10     mistake when information was provided as to his treatment in the

11     hospital.  He couldn't have been treated in the hospital in 1993 if in

12     1992 his wife stated that there was information indicating that he had

13     been killed.

14             As regards any additional possibilities to verify findings, this

15     case was identified through a joint project between the

16     International Commission for Missing Persons and the Administration for

17     the Detainees and Missing Persons.  It is not an identification process

18     undertaken by the Republic of Croatia independently and alone.  It was

19     carried out through a joint project with a renowned international

20     organisation, and their data is credibly relied on whenever DNA analysis

21     is discussed.

22        Q.   I wanted to ask you something about this newspaper article given

23     the fact that you are an expert and that you work for the administration.

24     What weight does the administration and you as expert attach to a

25     newspaper piece?  Judging by your answer, one would conclude that you

Page 3823

 1     accept it as absolutely true.

 2        A.   It is not a question of whether I accept or whether we accept

 3     newspaper articles as something that is absolutely true.  What I'm saying

 4     is this:  If the family stated that according to a newspaper article from

 5     1992 there is indicia that Haso Brajic had been killed, then that runs

 6     completely against the information they provided on his treatment in 1992

 7     and 1993.  If he had been treated in the Osijek hospital in 1993, his

 8     wife would not have stated that in 1992 he was probably dead.  So we are

 9     discussing facts here rather than assigning weight to a newspaper

10     article.  The sequence of events is the essence.

11        Q.   You yourself say that there is indicia pertaining to that

12     newspaper article, and that was the thrust of my question.  What weight

13     would you assign to a newspaper article published during the war on the

14     other side of the front line; that is to say, not by people who may have

15     been eyewitnesses.  You also say that the only logical conclusion is that

16     the data on his health status is inaccurate in terms of the dates of

17     treatment.

18             What I'm trying to point out is that I think that another

19     conclusion is possible, and that is that the information contained in the

20     article is incorrect.

21        A.   It's possible that some of the information is inaccurate.  I

22     don't know.  I can't see this newspaper article.  But we are talking now

23     about time, about years.  If he had been treated in the Osijek hospital

24     in 1993, then his wife would not have stated that he was possibly dead

25     since 1992.  This issue is about the sequence of events.

Page 3824

 1        Q.   What did you say?  He was dead in 1992?

 2        A.   That's question -- or, rather, the answer, the -- 29, namely:

 3             "Are there any circumstances indicating that the missing person

 4     was killed?"

 5             And the answer is:

 6             "Yes.  The newspaper article from 22 April, 1992, 'Glas

 7     Slavonije.'"

 8             So the newspaper article contains that information, and the

 9     reference to this treatment here is in 1993.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, just one moment.

11             Ms. Bilic, the information about the newspaper article, if I

12     understand you correctly, is given by the man's wife; is that right?

13     That's an answer to the question put to her; right?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  Correct.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the information about treatment in the

16     hospital --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's on.  Just one moment.  Is it okay now?  Is

19     it okay now?

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The information about the treatment

22     in the hospital in 1993 is also given by the wife in response to a

23     question.  Is that correct as well?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So what you're saying is it wouldn't be

Page 3825

 1     logical for her to say on the one hand there is information that he was

 2     killed in 1992, and on the other hand give the information that he was

 3     treated in 1993 in a hospital.  Do I understand you correctly?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  And from that I conclude

 5     that it must be a confusion, a mistake, and this is additionally

 6     supported by the fact of the identification of the mortal remains of

 7     Haso Brajic, which is consistent with the answer provided by his wife to

 8     question 29.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go to the last page to

11     see the date when the wife of Haso Brajic provided this information.

12        Q.   I suppose this is the newspaper story that you relied on, but

13     that's not what I wanted to show you.  I wanted to show you this date.

14     Can you see it?  Although it's rather pale, but I believe the year is

15     1994.  At least we can see the year.

16        A.   Correct.  That is year 1994, and that was the first drive for

17     collecting information on missing person.

18             I would just like to correct one thing.  We did not rely on the

19     newspaper story.  The information from the newspaper story was provided

20     by Haso Brajic's wife.

21        Q.   The date is 8 February 1994.  Now, you just said that this

22     identification was done by the ICMP, the commission for missing persons

23     from Bosnia-Hercegovina, or was it Croatia?

24        A.   The headquarters of the ICMP is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I

25     said this identification was done in cooperation between the

Page 3826

 1     Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons and the International

 2     Commission for Missing Persons in a concluded project which was called

 3     Joint Project for Final DNA Identification.

 4        Q.   I want to know something else.  Did you -- or, rather, did the

 5     commission get from the other commission only the finding or did it

 6     get the finding complete, all the supporting information including

 7     electropherograms?

 8        A.   The administration received from the ICMP the findings of the

 9     analyses of blood samples of Haso Brajic's relatives.

10        Q.   Did the administration get only the final conclusions or the

11     electropherograms underlying the conclusions?

12        A.   We certainly did not get the blood samples.  We got the findings.

13     Whether those findings are only figures or the electropherograms as well,

14     I don't know.

15        Q.   I'm asking you this because it is very well known that the ICMP

16     does not provide this to anyone.  In many situations, they were unwilling

17     to provide such things even to this Tribunal, and I don't mean this case,

18     I mean other cases, and I'm asking you this to find out whom we could

19     possibly address, you, your administration, or the ICMP?

20        A.   As far as providing the findings of the analysis of mortal

21     remains including electropherograms, I can tell you that we have ICMP

22     findings.  We have findings in those identification cases that were part

23     of a joint project between the Administration for Detainees and Missing

24     Persons and the ICMP.  Through that joint project the mortal remains of

25     approximately 300 to 350 persons have been identified.  The figure may be

Page 3827

 1     even higher, and in more than 100 cases it was actually a confirmation of

 2     findings that the Administration for Detainees and Missing Persons

 3     produced already which functions as a control mechanism, but we do take

 4     into account all the information that concerns either the processing and

 5     analysis of mortal remains and blood samples equally.

 6        Q.   I asked you specifically about electropherograms and you said you

 7     don't know.  Now you say you exchange with them all data.  Now I'd like

 8     to know where we stand.  Do you receive also electropherograms or not, or

 9     electropherograms are not included in this concept of all data that you

10     received from them?

11        A.   I said that in the specific case of Haso Brajic I cannot maintain

12     at this moment that we do have in our possession the electropherograms.

13     It doesn't mean yes or no.  It just means I don't know at this moment.

14     Otherwise, I maintain that we exchange with ICMP all findings and all

15     data concerning the joint project of DNA analysis of mortal remains.

16        Q.   Does that mean that in other situations you do have

17     electropherograms?

18        A.   I believe we do in the majority of cases.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, would this be a good time?

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And may I remind you for after the

22     break not to overlap, please.

23             Ms. Bilic, we take the first break, come back at 11.00.  The

24     court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 3828

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Concerning the questionnaire again, that's

 8     Exhibit 2324, I would like to look at page 2, item 8.  It seems I need

 9     page 3, question 8.  This is -- this is the right one.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We just need the right page in

11     English.

12        Q.   The question 8 is:

13             "Who carried out the forcible taking away/capture of the person?"

14             And then we see listed various armed forces.  We could say enemy

15     armed forces from the viewpoint of the Croatian armed forces, and my

16     question would be:  What is the reason why no Croatian formations have

17     been listed here.  None of the Croatian forces that are also listed in

18     the same questionnaire, more precisely seven of them, if you understand

19     my question.

20        A.   I did understand your question.  The thing is that in most cases,

21     as far as persons whose families initiated tracing requests are

22     concerned, the fact that they went missing is the responsibility of one

23     of these formations.  However, under (g) we see "Other," and that leaves

24     the possibility of indicating any other formation, including some

25     formations of the Croatian armed forces if the families had reason to

Page 3829

 1     believe that they were responsible for forcibly taking away or capturing

 2     their family member.  So this list makes it possible to provide any

 3     answer based on the information available to the family.

 4        Q.   Could you tell me the reason why these formations are not

 5     expressly indicated as they are indicated in that other paragraph?  Why

 6     aren't they mentioned by name as they are mentioned on another page?

 7        A.   As I've said before, most of the abductions in cases of forcibly

 8     taking people away, the person who had gone missing and reported in that

 9     drive in 1994 was the responsibility of the formations listed here, and

10     the possibility is also given of mentioning the Croatian armed formation

11     if that is the case.

12        Q.   I would like to go back to another passage on a different page,

13     one page before this; that is, information on the membership in some

14     forces of the person sought.  You see from item (a) to item (i) various

15     possibilities are listed.  Can you explain to me why this does not

16     mention that the said person is possibly a member of the formations we

17     saw listed on the previous page, the Yugoslav Army, Territorial Defence,

18     paramilitaries, secret services, et cetera?

19        A.   The fact is that this questionnaire on missing persons needs to

20     be viewed in the context in which it came into being.  It is a good

21     instrument for collecting information wherein individual questions

22     reflect the situation that prevailed at that moment.  There are also --

23     there were also some questions here that should be reformulated today

24     concerning UNPA zones and refugee status, et cetera.

25             As to your question why members of the JNA and paramilitary

Page 3830

 1     formations are concerned or whatever you want to call them, most of the

 2     missing persons who went missing in 1991 and 1992 were Croatian defenders

 3     or civilians who went missing or were forcibly taken away by JNA and

 4     paramilitary forces.  Their families addressed the Administration for

 5     Detainees and Missing Persons and initiated the procedure of the search

 6     with the administration.  The families of missing members of the JNA

 7     addressed and contacted the competent commission for the search for

 8     missing persons of the Republic of Serbia, or more precisely at that time

 9     it was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, whereas members of

10     paramilitary units addressed the commission of the so-called Republic of

11     Serbian Krajina.

12             The fact is that in previously occupied territories, there was

13     also an established body that dealt with the missing persons who were

14     members of paramilitary formations or captured members of paramilitary

15     formations.  The headquarters of that commission was in Knin.  However,

16     one of its branches dealt with captured and missing persons in the

17     Croatian part of the Danube valley, and its headquarters was in Erdut.

18        Q.   Does this mean that owing to the fact that that commission

19     existed in the territory that was at the time in the hands of the Serbian

20     forces, the administration didn't initiate any more serious proceedings,

21     as it were, to search for the members of those formations that had gone

22     missing in armed conflict?

23        A.   No.  That doesn't mean that.  The administration actually did

24     carry out searches, but when it started procedures to collect data on

25     missing persons, an invitation was seen out to the families of those

Page 3831

 1     citizens of the Republic of Croatia who had gone missing to report to the

 2     administration and to report the disappearance of their members.  That

 3     invitation was published in the media on the eve of that drive, and it

 4     was intended for all those citizens whose family member had gone missing

 5     in the Republic of Croatia during the war.

 6             The fact is, however, that at the same time, the other

 7     commissions were being set up which dealt with the same issue in the

 8     previously occupied territories of the Republic of Croatia.  For example,

 9     those para-authorities' commissions were active, and they appeared as the

10     other side in the negotiations together with us, whereas the families of

11     the disappeared members of the JNA and the TO mostly resided in the then

12     occupied areas of Republic of Croatia and sent their search requests

13     those commissions that were in charge of those issues.

14             That was the situation as it was in 1994 -- or, rather, in 1993

15     and 1994 when our questionnaires were designed and when information was

16     collected.  Later on, and especially today, the situation has changed

17     dramatically.

18        Q.   Let's stick to the questionnaire.  I don't want to talk about the

19     situation as it is today.  I apologise for having interrupted you.

20        A.   No problem at all.  What I'm trying to say is that this

21     questionnaire reflects the context within which it was created.

22        Q.   And for that reason, if I understand you properly, this question

23     18 does not actually comprise members of various formations or, rather,

24     armed formations that are listed under 8 on the following page, i.e.,

25     members of the JNA, the police, the Territorial Defence, paramilitary

Page 3832

 1     formations, secret services, and so on and so forth.

 2        A.   As I've already told you --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one -- just one moment.  We are overlapping

 4     again, and, Mr. Zivanovic, as far as this is a question, isn't that asked

 5     and answered extensively?

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, okay.  I withdraw the question.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   And now let's look at 3747 which is another questionnaire and it

10     concerns somebody called Vinko Oroz.  In English I'm interested in page

11     14.  The corresponding page in B/C/S is 10.

12             There seems to be a mistake.  Anyway, let's look at chapter 2,

13     question number 10.  I believe that this is --

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 4 in B/C/S.  I apologise.

15     And I believe that it should be on the last page in English.

16        Q.   Please look at the entry under number 10.  It says here, and it

17     is the last sentence:

18             "The person who submitted the application has learned --"

19             I apologise.  It's not what I wanted to read.  It's a mistake.

20     We will drop this exhibit.  I have to withdraw this document.  I made a

21     mistake.  I apologise.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 3765 is the next document I would

23     like to look at.  Page 5.  I apologise.  It's page 4, and the question

24     number is 21.

25        Q.   It says here that this person was last seen in late February 1992

Page 3833

 1     in Darda, in the police station there.  He was recorded as somebody who

 2     was killed on the 4th of February, 1992.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, what I have on the screen in

 4     English is "date and hour," number 21:

 5             "Date and hour when the missing person was last seen, end of

 6     November 1991."

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We have in the B/C/S it is the end of

 8     February 1992.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's see whether we can clarify this.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, yes, yes.  It appears --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  21.  21.  Yeah.  That's the one.  Okay.  Thank

12     you.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did you make any checks of these allegations, i.e., that he was

15     last seen in February 1992 at the police station in Darda?

16        A.   I really can't remember as I sit here.  I can't remember whether

17     any checks were carried out in this specific case, especially not in

18     terms of his last sighting.

19        Q.   I apologise.  This question concerns this person, so if you do

20     not remember anything them, let's leave it at that.  If you don't have a

21     precise answer to my question, let's not waste time.

22        A.   If you're asking me whether there were any additional checks

23     carried out, I can say that I can't remember.  However, when it comes to

24     this person, specifically I know that his post-mortem remains were

25     located and identified.  As far as I remember, they were found in the

Page 3834

 1     Republic of Serbia and taken over from there.  I believe that we have at

 2     our disposal documentation showing the time when those mortal remains

 3     were taken out from the Danube River.

 4        Q.   I apologise.  The RCMP carried out the identification?

 5        A.   In this case it was done by a DNA laboratory in the Republic of

 6     Croatia.  I would like to add the following:  His mortal remains were

 7     buried, if I remember it well, in Novi Sad, and then in 2002 pursuant to

 8     an agreement with the commission and Republic of Serbia, we organised the

 9     taking of samples from non-identified mortal remains buried in Novi Sad.

10     One of the samples that were taken were subsequent -- subsequently

11     identified as belonging to this particular person, and then by applying

12     the DNA method, his identity was established, and then the mortal remains

13     were taken over.  Before we had a positive ID, we did not know what had

14     happened to that person, and we didn't know where his mortal remains were

15     buried.  The control sample of non-identified persons from Novi Sad can

16     be found with the ICMP.  However, these findings were arrived at

17     independently by my administration.

18             I apologise.  I hope that we are talking about the exact person.

19     There are two persons by the name of Siles, Janes in Tibor.  Could we

20     possibly go back -- or, rather, I have the materials in front of me.

21     With your leave, I would like to peruse the materials that I have in

22     front of me just to make sure that I'm not confused about the identity of

23     the person.

24        Q.   I'm sorry, my time is limited.  I just wanted to know whether the

25     administration checked these allegations.  That is all.  You have given

Page 3835

 1     me a satisfactory answer when you said that you cannot be very precise in

 2     terms of my question, so we will not go on analysing this document.

 3     Let's now look at 31 -- 3931, which is another exhibit from the

 4     Prosecutor's list.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page 4 in B/C/S

 6     and page 5 in English.  Question number 20.  Can we go one page back.

 7     Here at the bottom of the page -- I apologise.  Can we go back to the

 8     page that we had on the screen just a while ago.  We had it on the screen

 9     and then we went one page back.  Can you forward one page.

10        Q.   Let's look at the answer under 20, the last answer on this page.

11     It says here:

12             "His mother alleges that he was seen in Sremska Mitrovica."

13             This person, as far as I know -- or, rather, I would like to ask

14     you the same.  Did you ever check whether that person was indeed in

15     Sremska Mitrovica?

16        A.   For all the missing persons we checked whether they were in the

17     territory either in the Republic of Serbia or Bosnia-Herzegovina

18     depending on the case.  A list of all the missing persons was submitted

19     to the competent bodies of the Republic of Serbia, especially of those

20     persons for which we had information that they may be detained in the

21     Republic of Serbia.  As far as we know, we did not get a confirmation

22     that that person was in Sremska Mitrovica.

23             The only mechanism available to us for checking this kind of

24     information were negotiations, i.e., bilateral relations with the

25     corresponding commission of the government of the Republic of Serbia.

Page 3836

 1        Q.   Could we look at 4063, please.  The name is Ivan Redzic.  We can

 2     move to page 3 and then to page 4 in B/C/S, and pages 4 then 5 in

 3     English.

 4             Do you see here at the very bottom - again we should look at

 5     question 20 - it is said that this person, on the 4th of December, 1992,

 6     was seen at the Vukovar Hospital by an interpreter working for UNPROFOR.

 7     The interpreter's name is indicated, and that he had surgery on his arm

 8     at the hospital.  When he was supposed to be taken over, he left the

 9     hospital, and in May 1993 he was seen in Borovo Naselje under a different

10     name?

11        A.   I believe the answer to this is contained in my previous

12     explanation when I said that one set of questions focuses on when the

13     missing person was last seen, because we proceeded from the assumption

14     that -- we proceeded from the knowledge and the assumption that in that

15     interval, in the two and a half years, families have found something out,

16     and here in this case we also have a witness who was apparently together

17     with the detainees in Dalj, but in many cases this information proved to

18     be incorrect.

19        Q.   I understand your answer's a general one and you've already

20     provided it before, but I'm interested in this specific situation:  Did

21     you check with the interpreter of the UNPROFOR identified here?  Did she

22     indeed see Ivan Redzic as we can read here?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   You testified yesterday about a French national who went missing,

25     Jean Michel Nicolier, and you said that he has the status of Croatian

Page 3837

 1     defender, and that as far as you know this status necessarily requires

 2     Croatian citizenship.  I'd like to know do you know for sure that he has

 3     the status of Croatian defender?  Is this verified information?

 4        A.   As far as I know, subsequently, and I mean a couple of years ago,

 5     he was granted the status of Croatian defender, but this part is not

 6     within my purview.  That is not the kind of information in my

 7     questionnaire.  So what I'm saying now is what I know from the media.

 8     His family visited Croatia several times, including in order to provide

 9     blood samples for DNA analysis, and as far as I remember, he was granted

10     the status of Croatian defender and included in the register of Croatian

11     defenders.

12        Q.   You said that Croatian citizenship is a requirement for that

13     status.  Is that reliable information?

14        A.   No, it's not reliable information.  I said as far as I know I

15     believe that is so, but I'm not so familiar with regulations as to be

16     able to speak of this in any qualified way.

17        Q.   You mentioned Milorad Stricevic yesterday and his identification.

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   You said his family never made a tracing request in Croatia or in

20     Serbia or before the ICRC.  That's on page --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the page number.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Tell me, how was the identification performed on

25     Milorad Stricevic?

Page 3838

 1        A.   By DNA analysis.  The family was given the findings of DNA

 2     analysis and also the findings of analysis by traditional methods, but we

 3     had operative information as well indicating that among the mortal

 4     remains from Daljski Atar there were also the mortal remains of

 5     Milorad Stricevic.  We found his relatives, including his brother.  We

 6     took blood samples from his brother, and based on that we established his

 7     identity by DNA analysis, and those results coincided with the results of

 8     traditional analysis.

 9        Q.   Giving evidence on this matter, you also said that year 1998

10     could not possibly be the year of his death, although it is indicated as

11     such.  Can you tell me why is it impossible?

12        A.   It was established that the mortal remains belonging to

13     Milorad Stricevic were found and extracted from the well in Daljski Atar.

14     As I said yesterday, the mortal remains from Daljski Atar belonged to the

15     locals of Erdut who were taken on several occasions away from their

16     homes.  Closer to the bottom of the well were mortal remains of those who

17     were taken away first and thrown into the well, and then as they were

18     taken away in groups one after another, they were thrown into the well

19     group by group, so the topmost group of mortal remains was the group

20     taken away the last.

21             I do not have here information here about Milorad Stricevic, but

22     by the location of his remains in that well, it is possible to

23     approximately establish at what time his mortal remains were thrown into

24     the well, but they were certainly nowhere near the top.

25        Q.   His mortal remains are designated as 1387.

Page 3839

 1        A.   Could you tell me the acronym next to the number?

 2        Q.   Not at this moment.  But are you saying that you are not sure

 3     whether his mortal remains were at the bottom or in the middle or the

 4     top?

 5        A.   Without this specific designation in front of me, I can't tell

 6     you.

 7        Q.   Then how did you establish that he was not thrown into the well

 8     in 1998?

 9        A.   Well, that can be established, among other things, from the

10     condition of the mortal remains.  The exhumation was in 1998, and if he

11     had been killed near 1998, then his mortal remains would have been better

12     preserved.

13        Q.   And to what extent were they preserved?

14        A.   I don't remember exactly, but that can be established by looking

15     into the autopsy report.

16        Q.   Do you remember if the cause of his death was established?

17        A.   I really don't know.  That's a question for forensic medical

18     experts.

19        Q.   One last thing I would like to ask you.  You said that the

20     exhumation started at Ovcara in September 1996.  Could you tell us which

21     authorities were in government in that area at that time?

22        A.   At that time within the process of peaceful reintegration the

23     UNTS force was present in the Croatian Danube valley area and the

24     Croatian authorities did not have full control of that territory.  Did

25     not have full sovereignty there.


Page 3840

 1        Q.   Were there any Serbian authorities at that time in that place

 2     during the peaceful reintegration?

 3        A.   I believe so, but I do not know what their mandate was exactly.

 4        Q.   Do you know that Hadzic was the head of that government, that

 5     local government?

 6        A.   No, I don't know that.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I have no further questions.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In line 25, page

 9     42 -- or, rather, line 24, the acronym is not UNST.  It is UNTAES.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Gillett, redirect?

12             MR. GILLETT:  Yes, there's a couple of matters to clear up,

13     thanks.

14             I was going to say at the outset that my colleague said he would

15     get back to us after the break with a reference to where Dr. Strinovic

16     limited himself in terms of the autopsies he could comment on, so if

17     you're able to provide that at some point that would be appreciated.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Gillett:

19        Q.   Now, Ms. Bilic, turning to some of the issues that were raised in

20     cross-examination.  Firstly you were asked about the questionnaire for

21     Haso Brajic, and this is 65 ter document 1964.  In that document, in the

22     section about his medical history, the Defence has raised this reference

23     to treatment in 1992 and 1993 at the Osijek general hospital.  Could we

24     please get 65 ter document 1964 on the monitor, please.  And if we could

25     go to page 16 of the English and page 14 of the B/C/S.

Page 3841

 1             Now, these medical documents were attached to the missing persons

 2     questionnaire.  Can I ask firstly is it typical that there -- or were

 3     there sometimes medical documents attached like this to missing persons

 4     questionnaires?

 5        A.   That was certainly typical if the family had any medical

 6     documentation.  Moreover, with every questionnaire, and that was also

 7     stressed in the letter of invitation, the families were asked to provide

 8     all documentation that they have, including medical records, and attach

 9     it to the questionnaire, which in this case was done.  There are cases

10     where we have the medical documentation and it forms an integral part of

11     the missing persons file.

12        Q.   This document refers to the patient Haso Brajic being treated for

13     diabetes at Osijek General Hospital.  So what would this suggest about

14     the reference earlier in the form to the treatment in 1992 or 1993?  I'm

15     sorry, I should say this appears to be from the 1980s.

16        A.   Correct.  The date indicated here is 1981, and I believe it's the

17     same disease, diabetes.  The difference is that the questionnaire

18     indicates a different period.

19        Q.   And now if we go to page 4 of the English and B/C/S of the same

20     document, question 22.  This lists the address when the individual was

21     last seen before he disappeared, and the address is Oraski Put near

22     Erdut.  Now, if in fact he had last been seen at the Osijek General

23     Hospital, wouldn't that be listed as the address where he was last seen?

24        A.   Very probably.  Very probably.  In that case the location of last

25     sighting would have been indicated as the Osijek hospital.

Page 3842

 1        Q.   Could we now get document 3747 on the monitor, please, and this

 2     is the missing persons questionnaire relating to Janos Siles.

 3             Now, in relation to this individual, a mention of the sighting in

 4     1992 was highlighted, I believe.  If we could get document 1D264, and

 5     that was on the Defence list, and at page 1 of 1D264.  And I recall that

 6     you said in this case with this individual, you remembered that his

 7     remains were taken over from the Republic of Serbia.  If we look at

 8     1D264, and it should be entry number 3, we see a markation after his date

 9     of birth, N.S. 1086/91.  Do you know what that indicates?

10        A.   That's a designation of mortal remains, and there's also an

11     indication of the year when they were found.  This year when they were

12     found was established based on the documentation that the Administration

13     for Detainees and Missing Persons received during negotiations from the

14     competent authorities of the Republic of Serbia.  That is the time when

15     the mortal remains were extracted from the Danube River, after which they

16     were autopsied and buried at the Novi Sad cemetery.

17        Q.   And what is the date in this case for Janos Siles, the year?

18        A.   The year when the mortal remains were found -- oh, sorry.  1991.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. GILLET:  If we could now get P1507 on the monitor, and this

21     was a document that was admitted yesterday, and this relates to

22     Ivan Redzic, whose state was raised at transcript page 39 of the

23     cross-examination.

24        Q.   Now, I note on the document referred to during cross-examination,

25     the date of disappearance for Ivan Redzic is listed as 19 November 1991.


Page 3843

 1     If we look at P1507, which is the list of remains exhumed from

 2     Dalj Catholic cemetery, we also see 19 November 1991.

 3             My question is:  When these bodies were exhumed, and you

 4     indicated yesterday you were involved in the exhumation, how were the

 5     bodies arranged?  Were they in a group?

 6             If we could scroll down to the bottom of the page in B/C/S.  We

 7     should see him at entry number 4.

 8        A.   Yes.  The mortal remains were in a group.  It is a classical mass

 9     grave found at the Catholic cemetery in Dalj.  The mortal remains were

10     found at a considerable depth, and above the victims from this mass grave

11     were buried persons who had died in the meantime, possibly even of

12     natural causes.  In any case, above these mortal remains there were other

13     bodies buried, which made the exhumation considerably more difficult.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, those were all the issues I had for

15     re-examination.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  I would just give the reference for

18     Dr. Strinovic part of evidence.  It is transcript pages 2390 through

19     2393, 8 January, 8 January 2013.

20             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.  There may have been some confusion.

21     When we looked at those pages, it appeared Strinovic was talking about

22     exhumations.  In fact, one specific exhumation report that he said he

23     wasn't involved in drafting and -- and was not talking about autopsy

24     reports conducted by other people.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Bilic, this brings an end to your testimony.

Page 3844

 1     We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.

 2     You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey home.

 3     Thank you very much.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Ms. Biersay.  Is the next witness

 7     available?

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  I believe -- I believe he is, Your Honour.  If

 9     that's the Court's preference, to go straight into it and then take the

10     break, I'm happy to oblige.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The next witness may be brought in.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.  Thank you for

17     coming to The Hague to assist the Trial Chamber.  First of all, do you

18     hear me in a language you understand?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, yes.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you please tell us your first

21     and family name, your date of birth, and your nationality and/or

22     ethnicity, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hicham Malla.  I was born in 1943

24     in Damask.  I'm currently a citizen of Croatia, and I am of Syrian ethnic

25     background.  I was born in Damascus.


Page 3845

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to read the solemn

 2     declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

 3     need to point out to you that by doing so you'll expose yourself to the

 4     penalty of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful information

 5     to this Tribunal.  Can I ask you to read now the solemn declaration the

 6     usher will hand to you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

10                           WITNESS:  HICHAM MALLA

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, your witness.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

15        Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Malla.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   You described to the Trial Chamber that you are currently a

18     citizen of Croatia.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber for how long you

19     have lived in Croatia.

20        A.   Since 1964.

21        Q.   Where did you complete your university studies?

22        A.   In Zagreb.

23        Q.   And what did you study?

24        A.   Medicine.

25        Q.   And what was your profession after you completed those studies?

Page 3846

 1        A.   I became a general practitioner.

 2        Q.   Could you briefly tell the Trial Chamber how it came to be that

 3     you studied in Zagreb and stayed afterwards?

 4        A.   When I graduated, I got married.  I found a job in Zagreb, and I

 5     stayed in Zagreb.

 6        Q.   What was the nationality or ethnicity of your wife?

 7        A.   Croatian.

 8        Q.   Did you have children?

 9        A.   I have a daughter and a son.  Two children, yes.

10        Q.   Where did you live in Croatia in 1990 through 1991?

11        A.   In Borovo Naselje in Vukovar.

12        Q.   Where were you working in 1991, at the beginning of 1991?

13        A.   At the beginning of the year I was in Zagreb.  I was a resident

14     in occupational medicine.

15        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber has heard about Borovo Naselje.  Briefly,

16     could you describe where Borovo Naselje is in relation to Borovo or

17     Borovo Selo?

18        A.   Borovo Naselje is a neighbourhood which was built for the staff

19     of Borovo, whereas Borovo Selo is an old village which is about 2 or 3

20     kilometres away from the new settlement known as Borovo Naselje.

21        Q.   Are you familiar with the company named Borovo?

22        A.   Yes.  It was a huge company which had a lot of different

23     production segments, rubber production, shoe production.  It even had its

24     construction part.  Borovo also had its own medical centre known as the

25     Borovo Medical Centre.

Page 3847

 1        Q.   Did you ever work for that company, the Borovo company?

 2        A.   Yes, from 1982 when I joined as a GP.

 3        Q.   How many other doctors, if any, worked at Borovo?

 4        A.   In 1982 there were eight of us, and gradually the number grew to

 5     80.

 6        Q.   Are you able to approximate the number of employees that worked

 7     for the Borovo company?

 8        A.   There were between 21- to 23.000 people working in Borovo, and

 9     there are about 3.000 people on top of that working all over Croatia in

10     the Borovo shops and stores.

11        Q.   You described that you were doing a residency in occupational

12     medicine.  Were you working sometimes at the Borovo company in 1991?

13        A.   Yes.  Whenever necessary, when another colleague was on sick

14     leave or on holiday, I would come to help out, make up the numbers.

15        Q.   In addition to being a doctor with the Borovo company, did you

16     work in any other capacity?

17        A.   Yes.  I was a sports physician or a -- the football club

18     physician.  There was also a boxing club that I was in charge of, the

19     handball club Borovo, as well as the Borovo karate club.  Those were all

20     clubs and teams which were sponsored by the Borovo factory.

21        Q.   What local clubs were you the physician for?

22        A.   The club's name was Sindzelic from Trpinja.

23        Q.   And how did you become the physician for the Trpinja football

24     club?

25        A.   The president of that club in 1982 was Mr. Dokmanovic.  He got in

Page 3848

 1     touch with me.  He told me that they needed a doctor part time.  I

 2     accepted the offer, and I continued working for the club.

 3        Q.   What is Mr. Dokmanovic's first name, if you remember?  Well, let

 4     me ask you this:  When you were working as a physician for the Trpinja

 5     football club, what was the nature of your contact or relationship with

 6     Mr. Dokmanovic?

 7        A.   I served as the club's physician, and he was the president of the

 8     club.  We saw each other every week at games, and we socialised after

 9     games, and then on Monday I would examine the players for injuries or for

10     possible treatments that had to be administered.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I didn't hear the answer of the witness on the

14     first question what is Mr. Dokmanovic's first name.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't think Mr. -- the witness gave an answer,

16     but I may be wrong.

17             Did you answer that question, Mr. Malla, what Mr. Dokmanovic's

18     first name is?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not answer, but the name

20     escapes me.  I can give you the name of his brother, but his name, no.

21     The brain's gone.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MS. BIERSAY:

24        Q.   What is the name of his brother?

25        A.   Jovan.

Page 3849

 1        Q.   Where did his brother work?

 2        A.   In the central warehouse of the Borovo factory.

 3        Q.   Did any other family member of Mr. Dokmanovic work at the Borovo

 4     company?

 5        A.   His wife also worked in the central warehouse.

 6        Q.   What contacts, if any, would you have with either the --

 7     Mr. Dokmanovic's wife or brother?

 8        A.   We saw each other often, because we would often go to

 9     Dokmanovic's home.  My wife and myself went there for celebrations for --

10     for example, when we had the football club celebrations his wife would

11     attend.  My wife would attend as well.

12        Q.   How would Mr. Dokmanovic usually dress when you knew him back

13     then?

14        A.   Always in a suit, sporting a tie.  He was an engineer.  He was a

15     gentleman.  He was also a politician, and he always wore suits.  Now I've

16     remembered his name.  Slavko was his name.

17        Q.   And Dr. Malla, when you refer to going to the house of Dr. -- of

18     Mr. Dokmanovic, which Dokmanovic are you talking about?

19        A.   Slavko Dokmanovic.

20        Q.   And when you describe the clothing worn by Mr. Dokmanovic, which

21     Dokmanovic are you talking about?

22        A.   Engineer Slavko Dokmanovic.

23        Q.   I'd like to move towards the middle of 1991.  Did there come a

24     time when you sent your children to live somewhere else?

25        A.   Yes.  When the school ended in the month of July, the Red Cross

Page 3850

 1     organised the departure of our children to the coast.  My son was ten and

 2     a half at the time.  I sent him to the coast.  And my daughter remained

 3     with me for another ten days or so, and then I sent her to Zagreb.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay -- sorry.  Ms. Biersay, would you

 5     allow me for one moment.

 6             Still on Slavko Dokmanovic, Mr. Malla.  The time you worked with

 7     him or he was the president of the football club and you were working in

 8     that football club, did you at that time know his ethnicity?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what was his ethnicity?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that whole village was a

14     Serbian village.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trpinja was a Serbian village.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That is perhaps the next to my next question:

18     How did you know that he was a Serb?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By the way he talked and by the

20     village he came from.  Everybody knew.  I was invited to their religious

21     holidays, to their religious feasts.  Those were religious holidays, so

22     everybody knew who they were and what they were.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  [Overlapping speakers].

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see the time indeed.  Thank you.

Page 3851

 1             Mr. Malla, this is the time for our second break.  Even if you're

 2     in only for 15 minutes we have to take the break now.  We come back at

 3     12.45.  The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you

 4     very much.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue, Ms. Biersay.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Dr. Malla, are you comfortably seated?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Right before the break we talked about your children, and you

15     described how you sent them out of the area where you live, which was

16     Borovo Naselje.  Could you explain why you did that?

17        A.   Shelling had started around Borovo and around Vukovar.  War

18     activities had already started.

19        Q.   And could you describe the intensity of that shelling?

20        A.   For example, the kindergarten in the centre of Borovo Naselje was

21     shelled, so people were afraid, and they sent children away from

22     Borovo Naselje and Vukovar.  Some left in the organisation of the

23     Red Cross and some left individually in the organisation of their own

24     parents.

25        Q.   Did there come a time when the shelling intensified in the summer

Page 3852

 1     of 1991?

 2        A.   Yes.  It intensified.  The biggest attack was on the 26th of

 3     August, early in the morning, around 6.00 in the morning.

 4        Q.   Where were you when that happened?

 5        A.   I was at home.  My wife, however, left for work in the Borovo

 6     company at 6.00 in the morning.

 7        Q.   And on the 26th of August, 1991, what, if any, structures were

 8     shelled?

 9        A.   Most of the neighbourhood and the Borovo company itself.  In

10     other words, individual civilian structures and the company, the factory.

11        Q.   Did you go to the factory that day of the shelling?

12        A.   No, I didn't.  I couldn't.  That's how strong the shelling was.

13     We all had to go down into an atomic shelter.  I was very concerned about

14     my wife.  I didn't know what was happening with her until that afternoon

15     when she was finally able to come to the company shelter herself.

16        Q.   You describe going into the shelter.  Could you describe which

17     shelter that was?  The one that you went into.

18        A.   In my own building in Borovo Naselje there were three such

19     shelters and a lot of basements.  That shelter where I went to could

20     accommodate up to 400 people.  It was completely under the ground.

21        Q.   Did you stay in the shelter for an extended period of time?

22        A.   Until the fall of Vukovar.  That's how long we stayed in the

23     shelter.  For three months altogether.

24        Q.   And how many people were in shelter with you approximately?

25        A.   Sometimes it was full to capacity of 400 people, and then their

Page 3853

 1     number reduced to 300.  They were mostly my neighbours, whole families,

 2     children, elderly.

 3        Q.   What ethnicity or nationality were the people in the shelter, if

 4     you know?  Generally speaking.

 5        A.   They were all inhabitants of Borovo Naselje of all ethnicity,

 6     Croat, Serb, Ruthenians.

 7        Q.   What, if anything, did you do for the sick or injured in the

 8     Borovo Naselje area?

 9        A.   I did what I could.  I couldn't do any surgeries, of course.  If

10     somebody had to undergo a major surgery, I would send them to the

11     hospital in Vukovar, and if there was no room in the hospital for

12     recovering patients, they would send them to me if they were just

13     recovering from major procedures.

14        Q.   Where were these people for whom you were giving care -- where

15     were they kept?

16        A.   In the shelter.  There were three atomic shelters which could

17     accommodate up to 1.500 people.

18        Q.   Did the sick and injured stay in the atomic shelter the entire

19     time, or did they move somewhere else?

20        A.   They stayed there all the time.

21        Q.   I'd now like to direct your attention to the 8th of November,

22     1991.  Do you remember that day?

23        A.   What month is it?  When you say November, what month is it?  Yes.

24     On the 8th of that month, I was in the atomic shelter.  That entire night

25     there was shelling.  There was a major attack.  And then around 8.00 they

Page 3854

 1     called me and said that there were some people wounded in front of the

 2     shelter.  I took my bag.  My wife went with me because I didn't have a

 3     nurse.  She helped me.

 4             We walked from the shelter for some 20 metres, then we saw a car

 5     ablaze.  There was a man behind the wheel who was already dead.  He had

 6     been hit.  And next to him was a child of some 9 years of age who was

 7     wounded.  I could see blood coming out of the child's chest, so I took

 8     the child out.  At that moment a person came out of the shelter who owned

 9     a car and took the child to the hospital.

10             After that, the wife whose husband got killed in the car and

11     whose child was taken to the hospital came to see me, but she was in a

12     state of shock, so I gave her some tranquiliser.  At that moment a shell

13     fell.  I fainted.  My wife got killed on the spot, and that patient was

14     wounded, and there were two other people who got wounded.  The shell

15     blast threw me for perhaps 5 metres, which I realized only when I came to

16     after I'd fainted.

17        Q.   When you -- excuse me.  When you came to, what injuries had you

18     sustained?

19        A.   I was covered in blood.  I was bleeding from top to bottom.  They

20     drove me to Borovo Komerc, which is the Borovo warehouse.  A doctor was

21     there, Dr. Emedi.  They took me there together with my wife, and the

22     doctor confirmed my wife's death.  He treated my wounds.  He put stitches

23     on my head, and I had 43 pieces of shrapnel over my body, my back, my

24     legs.  My complete body was pierced by the shrapnel.

25        Q.   I'm looking at our translation, Dr. Malla, and it reads that you

Page 3855

 1     had two to three pieces of shrapnel over your body.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   I still have them, 43.

 3        Q.   Did you have two or three or did you have 43 as in 4-3?  We're

 4     having a problem with our -- with the pronunciation.

 5        A.   Forty-three pieces of shrapnel in my body, most of which were

 6     removed in Zagreb, but I still have a few left in my body.

 7        Q.   Could you describe to the Trial Chamber the -- where the wound

 8     was on your head from the shrapnel?

 9        A.   The injury was here.  It was stitched from here to here.  I have

10     scars here, the entire back.  There are many other scars on my legs.  And

11     when I was leaving the camp and went to Zagreb, they took an X-ray to

12     remove the shrapnel and then they found also a fracture from number 4,

13     from C4 to C7.  Not the vertebra itself but the joint between the

14     vertebrae.  So there was fracture of my backbone, and I was put in a

15     plaster cast in Zagreb, a very large and solid one, for a long time.

16        Q.   You said that you had stitches on your head.  Did you have any

17     other kind of bandaging or anything on your head as well?

18        A.   I was bandaged all over and with a net on top of the bandage.

19     The medical kind of net to fix the bandage on my head.

20        Q.   Were you able to walk easily after you were hit with all the

21     shrapnel?

22        A.   Both my legs were injured, and I could walk only with great

23     difficulty.

24        Q.   How did your patients react to you when they saw you that way?

25        A.   They were extremely sorry when they saw me, because I had more

Page 3856

 1     wounds and injuries than they.  Some of them even refused to be seen by

 2     me because they said I need a doctor more than they do.

 3        Q.   When did you and the others in the atomic shelter you described

 4     to the Trial Chamber, when did you leave that shelter?

 5        A.   17 November, around 4.00 p.m.  The Home Guard corps advised us

 6     that it's better to retreat to the company because the town will

 7     certainly fall.  There was a lull towards the evening.  All of us

 8     retreated.  Some of us went to a shoe company because they had a large

 9     basement, and the others went to the warehouse of Borovo Komerc.

10        Q.   You describe that -- being told that it was better to retreat to

11     the company.  Do you mean the Borovo company?

12        A.   Yes, the Borovo company.

13        Q.   And when you said that there was a lull towards the evening,

14     there was a lull in what?

15        A.   There was no shooting or bombing or shelling.

16        Q.   How many people would you approximate were in the basement of the

17     Borovo shoe factory?

18        A.   Around 3.000.

19        Q.   What was the capacity of that basement?

20        A.   It was enough to hold 300 to 400 people at most.

21        Q.   Did you treat anyone while you were there in the basement?

22        A.   Yes, because that night three wounded persons were brought in.

23     They had gunshot wounds, not wounds from shells, because there were

24     snipers around the Borovo company and they were shooting at everyone.

25        Q.   What, if anything, did you wear to identify yourself as medical

Page 3857

 1     personnel?

 2        A.   I was dressed normally, but I had a ribbon around my arm, a white

 3     ribbon, rather wide, with the sign of the Red Cross on it.

 4        Q.   Were you the only one who wore such a band?

 5        A.   No.  In the shelter where I was, there were another three

 6     physicians, and in Borovo Komerc there were also three doctors.  We all

 7     wore the same armband.

 8        Q.   When did you leave the basement of the Borovo shoe factory?

 9        A.   On the 19th, the morning of the 19th, November.

10        Q.   Why did you do that?

11        A.   Because there was an agreement between the JNA, the Yugoslav Army

12     on the one hand, and the homeland -- Home Guards Corps, and we were told

13     that the army would let women, children, and medical personnel to go to

14     Vinkovci, whereas the others would be taken prisoner.  But when we got

15     out they began separating us, men to one side, women and children to

16     another.  Without asking anyone their name or their ethnicity or

17     anything, they started pushing us into buses using weapons, insulting us,

18     et cetera, and they put women and children onto trucks.

19        Q.   When you say that "they began separating us," who is -- what do

20     you mean by "they"?

21        A.   The Yugoslav Army, the JNA.

22        Q.   Were they the only ones?

23        A.   No.  There were also civilians carrying weapons and

24     paramilitaries.

25        Q.   What, if anything, did they, meaning the JNA or paramilitaries or

Page 3858

 1     these civilians, did they do to the men before they were shoved onto the

 2     buses?

 3        A.   They were beating them.  They were saying, "Ustashas.  We'll kill

 4     you."  They were insulting them in all possible ways.

 5        Q.   When they used the word "Ustasha," did that tell you what

 6     ethnicity they thought you were?

 7        A.   I had lived in Yugoslavia for a long time by that time, since

 8     1964, and I read the history of Yugoslavia and everything.  I know that

 9     there were Ustashas in Croatia before and Chetniks in Serbia before.

10     They were nationalists.  Each was concerned only about their own people.

11     They called each other Ustashas and Chetniks.  And if you want to insult

12     a Croat, call him a murderer, then you call him Ustasha.  It was during

13     the time of the Second World War, a paramilitary or military formation

14     these Ustashas.

15        Q.   In your estimation how many buses were loaded with the men who

16     had come out of the shelters?

17        A.   Well, they filled the buses, and I counted nine buses, and I know

18     exactly that I was in the fifth bus in the line.

19        Q.   Where did the buses go?

20        A.   I saw the markings on the city buses, "Novi Sad," and I knew we

21     were going to Serbia, to Vojvodina, and they took the road to Zrenjanin,

22     Vojvodina.

23        Q.   On your bus were there any armed guards?

24        A.   There were two, one in the front and one in the back.  I believe

25     they were military policemen, because they had truncheons which a regular

Page 3859

 1     soldier doesn't have, and these men did have truncheons.  So I believe

 2     they were military policemen.

 3        Q.   What were they armed with other than truncheons?

 4        A.   Automatic rifles and truncheons.

 5        Q.   And what, if anything, did they do to the prisoners on the bus?

 6        A.   The same.  They were showering them with slurs, calling them

 7     Ustashas, saying, "We'll kill you.  Keep your head down," et cetera, for

 8     no reason at all, and it went on throughout the journey.

 9        Q.   How many prisoners were on that one bus?

10        A.   More than a hundred, I believe.  Literally on top of one another.

11     More than one person per seat.  We couldn't even breathe.

12        Q.   What pace did the bus drive from Croatia to Zrenjanin, I think

13     you said?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   What pace did the buses take to get to where they were going?

16        A.   We departed around 2.30 from the Borovo company, and we arrived

17     at Zrenjanin around a quarter to 8.00, which means we travelled more than

18     six hours approximately.

19        Q.   As you were driving through Serb areas, were the buses greeted by

20     people?

21        A.   Yes, because the radio was on on the bus, and we heard war songs,

22     and we heard announcement that a caravan of 1.200 Ustashas from Vukovar

23     would be passing in such and such places.  So in populated areas, when we

24     were passing through there were crowds outside throwing stones,

25     et cetera.

Page 3860

 1        Q.   When your bus stopped, where were you?

 2        A.   We arrived at a forest.  It was dark by that time.  In November

 3     at 7.30, a quarter to 8.00 p.m., it's dark.  Every five minutes the bus

 4     would -- one bus would stop until our turn came.  We stopped by a barn, a

 5     pigsty, in fact, and we stopped about 20 to 30 metres away from that

 6     barn.

 7             When we were getting off the buses, we were passing through a

 8     gauntlet that was made up of troops, army troops, civilians and military

 9     police who were beating us with rifle butts from the moment we got off

10     the bus until we entered the barn.

11        Q.   At the time that you were being beaten in this gauntlet, were you

12     still wearing the armband you just described to the Trial Chamber?

13        A.   I was on the bus together with one other doctor, Dr. Karnas, and

14     two paramedics, and Dr. Karnas said we should get out together, the four

15     of us.  And when they saw the red cross on our arms, they started

16     shouting "These are murderers.  These are people who killed our wounded

17     to sell their organs," and they beat us even harder and tortured us even

18     more than the others.

19        Q.   Did the wounds from the shrapnel that you'd sustained, was that

20     still obvious or had it all healed up?

21        A.   The injuries were still visible because there were shrapnel

22     wounds on my neck and there was a scar.  There was the obvious stitch on

23     the back of my head.

24        Q.   And where were you hit as you were going through the gauntlet?

25        A.   I covered my head with my hands, so I got most of the blows on my

Page 3861

 1     head and my back.

 2        Q.   What happened once you were inside this structure, the shed --

 3     the barn, sorry.

 4        A.   It was a large door.  We were supposed to sit at the entrance

 5     with our hands behind our back, head bent down, and they continued

 6     beating us for -- without any reason, without even asking our names, and

 7     that went on until all the buses were emptied.  And that went on around

 8     1.00 a.m.  At 1.00 a.m., one of the prisoners who was being beaten said,

 9     "Why are you beating me?  I am a Serb like you."  Then they ask him,

10     "What's your name?"  And when he said his full name, then they left him

11     proceed into the back of that barn.  He was the first to have courage to

12     say that, because there were 150 Serbs among us, and they started talking

13     one after another.  Then I raised my hand.  Then they asked me who I was.

14     I said I was a foreigner and a physician.  And I was lucky because I was

15     sitting in the middle.  And they told me, "Go back.  You're not a doctor,

16     you're a mercenary."  And four of them started to beat me.

17        Q.   At some point did your beating stop?

18        A.   No.  They were beating me.  I couldn't see properly because I had

19     to look down with my hands in the back, but the civilian approached

20     because I could see his trousers.  I could see he was a civilian, and he

21     said, "Doctor, come with me.  They won't beat you any more."  At first I

22     did not respond because I did not dare believe him.  I remained sitting

23     as I was.  And he took me then under my arm, and he said, "Dr. Hicham,"

24     mentioning my name, "come with me."  And then he took me to the inside

25     part where the Serbian prisoners were, and told the others they mustn't

Page 3862

 1     beat me any more, and that's where I stayed until the morning alone.

 2        Q.   Did there come a time when you were asked to assist with the

 3     medical needs of the prisoners in the barn?

 4        A.   The next morning while I was waiting there this young man who had

 5     saved me came with a lieutenant-colonel whom I later learned was called

 6     Zivanovic, and I believe he was the commander there.  They were talking,

 7     and then the lieutenant-colonel came up to me and said he was sorry over

 8     what had happened to me, that there were murderers and Ustashas among us,

 9     and he said I was lucky because that person Aleksandar had seen me.  He

10     said that he was short of medical personnel, and when he got approval

11     from Belgrade, he was supposed to set up a camp there for 300 people.  He

12     said, "Now I have more than 1.200, and can you work here as a doctor?"  I

13     said, "I could, but I can't work alone.  There are other doctors among

14     the prisoners."  He said, "Let's go fetch them."  So I went together with

15     him among the prisoners.  I found four other doctors and one dentist.

16     All of us together were allocated a corner in the barn and five blankets,

17     and he said we should set up some kind of infirmary to examine patients.

18        Q.   Were you or the rest of -- I'll call them your medical team, were

19     they continue -- did they continue to beat people who were assisting you

20     in these medical needs?

21        A.   From that moment on nobody insulted me or beat me any more, but

22     other doctors were beaten, and the other prisoners got the same

23     treatment.

24        Q.   At this time turning to tab 6, 65 ter number 6395, it's a

25     photograph.

Page 3863

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  And, Your Honours, that is a photograph that was

 2     subject of the motion to add to the 65 ter exhibit list.  So with the --

 3     I'd like to make an oral motion to add that photograph to the list.  It's

 4     also part of the written motion that's been submitted to the

 5     Trial Chamber.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is that the written motion --

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  It's the eighth motion.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The eighth one.  Okay.  So this is another --

 9     another document or exhibit you want to submit to this witness?

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Correct, Your Honour.  It's on the -- it's on our

11     list to the Court as tab 6, but I'm just advising the Court that it

12     hasn't been formally admitted to the 65 ter list because a motion is

13     still outstanding.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Does the Defence have a position?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No position, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You say no position; right?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's correct.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what is it?  The document is a photograph,

19     you said?

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Photograph of what?

22             MS. BIERSAY:  I was hoping the witness would tell us.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You would like the witness to tell.  Okay.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  But it's relevant to the barn.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  Okay.  You may add it to the 65 ter list.

Page 3864

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this time we'd ask that

 2     the witness be shown tab 6, which is 65 ter number 6395.

 3        Q.   Dr. Malla, directing your attention to the photograph in front of

 4     you, do you recognise it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What do you recognise it to be?

 7        A.   Barns used for pigs, and there was this trough where we slept.

 8     That's where we were.

 9        Q.   And what name is this place known by?

10        A.   Stajicevo.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we'd ask for admission of 65 ter

12     number 6395.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1514, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:

17        Q.   In the photograph, Dr. Malla, it looks as if those two buildings

18     at the top of the photograph are attached.  Were they in fact attached to

19     each other?

20        A.   No, they were not attached.

21        Q.   And what I'll describe as the long building and the short

22     building, in which building were you?

23        A.   The one that appears shorter in the picture is the same length,

24     but you can't see it from the other building.

25             When we arrived, we were all in the same barn.  By the next day

Page 3865

 1     they had prepared the other part of the barn, and they moved 300 to 400

 2     people over there.

 3        Q.   And you say they were all in the one barn and then moved to

 4     another.  Could you indicate for us by telling us whether it's right or

 5     left?  In which building did everyone gather as you described?

 6        A.   In this first one.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we assist the witness in marking.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9             MS. BIERSAY:

10        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Malla.  And is that what you mean by the first

11     building?

12        A.   Yes.  That's the first building where we were initially

13     accommodated.

14        Q.   And keeping that pen, could you indicate to the Trial Chamber

15     where you and the others slept?  And I'm now directing your attention to

16     the inset that you described earlier.

17        A.   Here in the middle was an empty space.  That's where the guards

18     were.  And now you can see the troughs where some of the detainees slept,

19     whereas the others slept on both sides on the floor next to the windows.

20     There were no windowpanes, mind you.  For the first ten days we did not

21     have toilet facilities, so we went -- when we had to go, we did it

22     between those people that were lying by the floor and the floor itself.

23     Now, you can imagine when over 1.000 people did that in the barn of this

24     size, you can imagine the conditions and the hygiene.

25        Q.   Excuse me, Dr. Malla, I'll have to be a little descriptive.  Are

Page 3866

 1     you saying that people defecated and urinated in the same place that they

 2     slept?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  At some point, Dr. Malla, were you asked to gather

 5     statistics on the ages of the prisoners who were at the Stajicevo camp?

 6        A.   Yes.  Lieutenant-colonel Zivanovic asked me to prepare

 7     statistical data in terms of the age of the detainees and I did that.  I

 8     prepared the statistical data.  There were 19 children between the ages

 9     of 12 and 17.  There were about 470 people who were over 60 at the time.

10        Q.   Now, you described when you first got into the barn how you had

11     to sit with your head bowed and your hands behind your back.  What

12     instructions did the prisoners receive about where they should look or

13     how they could sit?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   After the first day, were there any special rules for how the

16     prisoners should conduct themselves when moving around the barn?

17        A.   The detainees were not allowed to move around the barn at all.

18     When somebody had to be interrogated, they were taken out by the guards.

19     Otherwise, we were not allowed to move from the spot to which we were

20     assigned.  There was no moving around.

21        Q.   And what happened if people did move around?

22        A.   They would be punished.  They would be beaten.  But everybody was

23     too afraid to make a move without asking for permission.  We asked for

24     permission when we had to go to the toilet or when we wanted a drop of

25     water to drink or when we wanted to go closer to the wall to relieve

Page 3867

 1     ourselves during the initial days.

 2        Q.   What was the floor of the barn made of?

 3        A.   The remains of a cement flooring.  It was dirty.  It was covered

 4     with pig faeces, no windowpanes.  It was a barn that had been disused for

 5     15 years.  There was no electricity, no lights whatsoever, no

 6     windowpanes.

 7        Q.   What happened at 5.00 a.m. in the mornings while you were at the

 8     camp of Stajicevo?

 9        A.   They got us all up, all the detainees, and they were supposed to

10     sing the Yugoslav anthem.  There's one part of the anthem that says "God

11     damn every traitor," and they were supposed to repeat that part at least

12     a hundred times because they were the traitors, and everybody who did not

13     sing would be punished by being beaten.  And that was what happened every

14     day in the morning.

15        Q.   How often did you see or hear dogs in the Stajicevo complex?

16        A.   At first three nights in a row the civilian police came with

17     dogs, with trained dogs, and they would let them loose into the camp.

18        Q.   And what did the dogs do?

19        A.   They barked at us.  They ran around.  But they were all muzzled.

20     They were barking and gnarling and jumping.  They caused fear among the

21     people.  It all happened in the middle of the night 3.00 or at 2.00 in

22     the morning.

23        Q.   You earlier mentioned this Lieutenant Zivanovic.  Do you know

24     whether he was a JNA or military police or something else?

25        A.   He was a member of the military police, but that military police,

Page 3868

 1     they were also the JNA, I believe.  I am sure that they were also the

 2     JNA.

 3        Q.   Were there any high-ranking military officials that you saw at

 4     the camp?

 5        A.   I saw three.  When we first arrived there and when we suffered

 6     the most beating, there was one.  There was an assistant of his.  And

 7     then when I was interrogated, that was done by a major.

 8        Q.   And do you know what affiliation the major had?

 9        A.   The JNA.

10        Q.   You described to the Trial Chamber that you were no longer beaten

11     after you were chosen to organise this medical staff.  I would like to

12     know if you were interrogated nonetheless.

13        A.   There was a mistake.  I was the only one who was not beaten from

14     then on, but the other doctors, they were beaten every day.  Dr. Emedi

15     was the first one who was interrogated, one morning around 8.00.  And he

16     came back around 5.00 in the afternoon.  His face was swollen.  Everybody

17     could see that he had been beaten.  I spoke to him, and he said they

18     asked him about the Croatian guards, because he treated its members.  So

19     when he couldn't answer a question, he would be beaten.

20             I was taken out for interrogation after him, but they did not

21     beat me, no.

22        Q.   And where did the interrogations happen?

23        A.   You can't see it in this photo.  There is a little wood around

24     this complex, and there is a one-storey building which had probably been

25     the administration building for the whole farm, because there was a

Page 3869

 1     hallway and five or six what probably had been offices, and in every

 2     office there was an investigator, a person who interrogated us, and we

 3     were brought there to those rooms for interrogations.

 4        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to that building.  Did you --

 5     did there come a time that you saw someone there that you knew from

 6     Croatia?

 7        A.   As I was coming out of the office where I was interrogated I

 8     entered the hallway.  The width of that was 1 to 2 metres.  There were

 9     two guards that were guarding me, and the group was coming from the other

10     side, and I was supposed to move, and one of the guards told me

11     Mr. Dokmanovic is coming with four escorts.  And I saw him.  They passed

12     me by.  And I don't think that there were more than 30 or 40 centimetres

13     between my face and his face.  He looked at me, but his eyes were empty.

14     It was as he had never seen me before.  He just passed me by.  He never

15     acknowledged me or that he knew me.

16        Q.   And which Dokmanovic is this?

17        A.   Engineer Slavko Dokmanovic.

18        Q.   How was he dressed?

19        A.   He sported military trousers.  That's what I could see.  And a

20     military jacket or a blouse.  Some people call it a marshall jacket or an

21     artillery jacket.  In any case, it had a lot of pockets and it was a

22     winter-type jacket.  I have seen photos of Castro and Che Guevara wearing

23     similar jackets.  Some call it marshall jackets, because I believe that

24     the marshals of the US Army wore similar jackets as part of their winter

25     uniform.

Page 3870

 1        Q.   You said he was -- the guard told you that he was coming with

 2     four escorts.  Did you see the four escorts?

 3        A.   I apologise.  It was not the guard who told me.  I saw that

 4     myself.  He entered and there were four people accompanying him.

 5        Q.   And how were they dressed?

 6        A.   They had military uniforms, but those were camouflage uniforms.

 7        Q.   What, if any, weapons were they carrying?

 8        A.   They were armed, yes.  They had automatic weapons.

 9        Q.   How did you feel when Slavko Dokmanovic looked you in the eyes

10     and ignored you?

11        A.   I was very disappointed.  First of all, he had been my friend, my

12     family friend.  We had known each other for a long time.

13             Second of all, he knew I was a doctor.  I treated his father when

14     he was sick, and I didn't have to, because I worked at the Borovo

15     company.  I was not a -- his father's doctor.  He knew that during the

16     war I was a doctor who treated everybody.  I was not a defendant.  I

17     never carried weapons.  And in my view, he was in such a position that he

18     could have helped me to get out of there.  He could have said that I was

19     a doctor who didn't have to be there, but he pretended that he had never

20     seen me before.

21        Q.   At this time we're going to hopefully play some clips.  Turning

22     now to tab 5, which is 65 ter number 48 -- I'll change the order, in

23     fact.  Instead, turning to tab 14, 65 ter number 4886.2.  And that is an

24     extract from 8 minute 58 seconds to 12 minute 32 seconds, and coming from

25     Rule 65 ter 4886, but we'll start at 11 minute, 14 seconds.

Page 3871

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, what is the question?  What is the

 3     foundation for this exhibit?

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  I would like to play it for the witness and see if

 5     he recognises the people or person depicted.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  In my view it is leading.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If we could now -- and I

10     see that the time code is at 11 minute 12 seconds.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Today Borovo Naselje is the most

13     destroyed and deserted town on the entire planet.  We are talking to

14     Slavko Dokmanovic about that.  What are we supposed to do?

15             "Unfortunately, Vukovar indeed is the most destroyed city on the

16     entire polity.  A city which used to be clean, which used to have peace

17     and order is no longer.  We will do everything to restore the city.

18     We're working on this very intensively in two directions.  First of all,

19     we're going to organise the civilian authorities, and that will be done

20     today or perhaps tomorrow.  Preparations to clean up the city and to

21     rebuild it again depend on several matters.  Firstly, it is necessary to

22     improve sanitary conditions, then we'll clean up the rubble, and after

23     that we will build a new city according to an existing project.  I

24     sincerely hope that this new city will never be an Ustasha city but a

25     real Serbian city where all people will live free."

Page 3872

 1             MS. BIERSAY:

 2        Q.   Dr. Malla, before you is a freeze-frame from this video-clip, and

 3     the time code is 11 minute, 24 seconds.  Do you recognise the person in

 4     that photograph?

 5        A.   Yes.  That's Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic.

 6        Q.   Is what he is wearing similar to or different from what you saw

 7     him wearing at Stajicevo?

 8        A.   It's different.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we'd move for the admission of

10     65 ter number 4486.2.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object at this point.  For the purpose of

13     identification of Mr. Dokmanovic, vide-clip is enough, not the whole text

14     of his statement.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  It's -- we would like to admit the clip for the

16     substance of what Mr. Dokmanovic is saying, but the witness has

17     identified the speaker as being someone he knows and who is indeed

18     Slavko Dokmanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The witness did not say anything about the

20     substance of his statement in this video-clip.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  That's because the clip speaks for itself and he

22     doesn't need to.  He just needs to identify the speaker.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1515, Your Honours.

25             MS. BIERSAY:

Page 3873

 1        Q.   Dr. Malla, was that -- when you saw Dokmanovic at Stajicevo, was

 2     that the first time you had seen him in a military uniform?

 3        A.   No.  That was the second time.  The first time was around the 5th

 4     of August in Trpinja.  I went there to help a friend's son.  She called

 5     me.  I was there, and on returning to the centre of Trpinja, I saw him.

 6     He saw me.  He asked me to have a cup of coffee with him, but I turned

 7     him down because it was already late.  He was wearing a uniform of the

 8     JNA reserve.  The trousers and the shirt that he was wearing at the time

 9     were olive-drab colour.

10        Q.   Dr. Malla, we have about, if I'm correct, about seven minutes

11     left, and what I'd like to do is to ask you to describe the people -- or

12     the prisoners that you treated in -- in the barn.  My first question in

13     this regard, in fact, is:  Were their prisoners who upon their arrival in

14     Stajicevo already were not able to walk?

15        A.   Yes.  Among the civilians there, there was an elderly man who was

16     paralysed.  Among the civilians there was also a man with a catheter,

17     also an elderly man.  There were two old men with crutches.

18        Q.   Did you know these people personally?

19        A.   I knew one personally but not the others.  That one was from

20     Borovo Naselje, but I was not their GP.  I was only a company doctor, and

21     they no longer worked there.  They were too old to be workers of that

22     company.

23        Q.   The prisoners that you treated were -- had some of them already

24     been wounded upon their arrival at Stajicevo?

25        A.   There were a lot of wounded.  They needed to have their wounds

Page 3874

 1     dressed.  They needed therapy.  But every day somebody else was wounded

 2     as a result of beating.  There were seven people among some elderly men

 3     whose ribs were fractured when they had to run the gauntlet of rifle

 4     butts and sticks.  That's when they were injured, when their ribs were

 5     broken.

 6        Q.   When you treated these people did they tell you how they had got

 7     injured, for example, when they had broken ribs?

 8        A.   Yes.  They told me that they had been beaten and that their

 9     broken ribs were a result of that.  I mean, it is -- it was really

10     incomprehensible.  They were not all Croats.  Some of them were Serbs.

11     There was an elderly man of some 70 years of age.  His ribs were

12     fractured.  He was a Serb.  I can even tell you what his family name was.

13     He hailed from the Jeftic family.  His grandson, Jeftic, was one of the

14     detainees in the camp.  He couldn't breathe.  He wanted to be transported

15     to the hospital to be treated there.

16        Q.   Did they tell you why they were beaten?  For example, let me

17     restrict my question to the Serbs --

18        A.   Listen, initially when both the Croats and the Serbs were beaten

19     it was nothing but pure hatred.  Okay, when there is a war there is a

20     war, but if somebody's detained, you cannot let rip on him.  And then

21     people were interrogated, and they were beaten.  They called them

22     traitors.  If they had stayed behind in Borovo and Vukovar, they thought

23     that they had fought against them, they called them traitors, and they

24     would beat them.

25        Q.   One clarifying question because we're close to the end, you said:

Page 3875

 1             "... they were beaten.  They called them traitors.  If they had

 2     stayed behind in Borovo and Vukovar, they thought that they had fought

 3     against them."

 4             Who was considered to be a traitor?  It's unclear for the record.

 5        A.   Listen, as far as I know, there was a small number of Serbs who

 6     were members of the Croatian guards, and they fought together with them.

 7     They were civilians who didn't want to leave Vukovar -- or

 8     Borovo Naselje.  They wanted to stay in their homes, and they were

 9     considered traitors because they remained living with the enemy and it

10     was a given that they had collaborated with their enemy.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  I see, Your Honours.  May I ask just one question

12     to clear the records before we leave.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

14             MS. BIERSAY:

15        Q.   You said they wanted to stay in their homes.  Are you talking

16     about Serbs or Croats when you say that?

17        A.   Both Serbs and Croats, but there were also Serbs that didn't want

18     to leave.  They wanted to stay in their homes.  They didn't want to move.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Dr. Malla.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Dr. Malla, this is the end of the hearing today.

21     You will come back at 9.00 tomorrow morning.  I remind you that you are

22     under oath, which means that you are not allowed in the meantime to

23     discuss your testimony with anybody, and you are not allowed to talk to

24     any the parties.  The court usher will escort you out of court, and we'll

25     see you tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

Page 3876

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day

 5                           of April, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.