Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3944

 1                           Wednesday, 1 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

14     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett, case manager

15     Thomas Laugel, and intern Ivana Martinovic.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for the Defence.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

18     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             The Trial Chamber will now rule on the tenth Prosecution motion

21     for leave to amend its Rule 65 ter exhibit list filed on 19 April.  We

22     understood that the Defence does not object.  Is that a correct

23     understanding?

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.


Page 3945

 1             The Prosecution requests to add three photographs to its 65 ter

 2     list, the Trial Chamber grants the Prosecution leave to add these three

 3     photographs to its exhibit list.  The Chamber notes that both the eighth

 4     and the tenth motion of the Prosecution stem from the documents it

 5     identified on 18 March 2013.  The Chamber considers that it would be --

 6     that it will be more efficient -- a more efficient use of everybody's

 7     time if the Prosecution were to review these documents and make a

 8     comprehensive motion for any further documents it wishes to have added to

 9     its 65 ter list.

10             If there's nothing else, we can call the next witness.  Closed

11     session, please.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Thank you for coming to The Hague to

24     assist the Tribunal.  First of all, do you understand me in -- do you

25     hear me in a language you understand?


Page 3946

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Witness, as you have protective

 3     measures, we will not mention your name.  We will refer to you either by

 4     your number -- by your witness number or just by Mr. Witness.

 5             Mr. Gillett, I take it you have a pseudonym sheet?

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Yes.  That's 65 ter document 6412.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, could you please verify whether your

 8     name and date of birth on that sheet on the screen are correct?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are correct.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to read the solemn

11     declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

12     must point out to you that by doing so, you expose yourself to the

13     penalty of perjury should you give false or untruthful information to the

14     Tribunal.  Please give the solemn declaration now.  The usher will give

15     you the text.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  GH-071

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

21             Pseudonym sheet to be admitted, Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1637,

23     admitted under seal.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

25             Mr. Gillett, your witness.


Page 3947

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, good

 2     morning.  And good morning to everybody in and around the courtroom.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Gillett:

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you hear me loud and clear?

 5        A.   I can.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Could we go into private session for a couple of

 7     questions, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3948

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, what was the atmosphere like in Eastern Slavonia and

12     Vojvodina in mid to late 1991?

13        A.   Movement became difficult.  The last time I drove on the

14     motorway, sometime in the middle of 1991, there was growing intolerance

15     between various ethnic communities, that is to say, Croats and Serbs.

16        Q.   You said movement was difficult.  Moving to November 1991, was

17     there a time when you were stopped or arrested at that point in time?

18        A.   That was the last time when I was driving from Zagreb on the

19     motorway towards Novi Sad and suddenly a group of uniformed JNA members

20     showed up on the road, stopped me, searched my car, asked for my

21     documents, questioned me about where I was going.  And when I was

22     crossing into Vojvodina I was stopped again.  They questioned me again in

23     the streets of Novi Sad, and it was all about the same thing.  Every

24     other time after that when I was going towards Slavonia, I would go via

25     Hungary.


Page 3949

 1        Q.   Were you arrested in Titov Vrbas?

 2        A.   Yes.  In Titov Vrbas, I was working with a Serb colleague.  I was

 3     sitting in the car while he went away to agree about the presentation of

 4     these cosmetic products when two men in civilian clothing approached the

 5     car, dragged me out of the car, and they treated me rather rudely and

 6     roughly.  They waited for my colleague to show up and then they took us

 7     both to the police station, to the SUP.

 8        Q.   And in what country is Titov Vrbas located?

 9        A.   That's Vojvodina, perhaps 50 kilometres from Novi Sad where I was

10     living at the time.

11        Q.   What is your ethnicity?

12        A.   Croat.

13        Q.   When they arrested you in Titov Vrbas, did they provide any

14     reason or do you know why they arrested you?

15        A.   Well, they did not tell me the reason, but already at that time

16     the Borovo Naselje incident had happened and they probably reacted to my

17     licence plates.

18        Q.   What was it about your licence plates that they would have

19     reacted to?

20        A.   The licence plates were Virovitica, a place in Croatia.  I was in

21     Vojvodina, though, and there were many similar licence plates in

22     Vojvodina too at the time.  Probably because people were moving.

23        Q.   You said they took you to the police station in Titov Vrbas.

24     What did they do there?

25        A.   They separated my colleague and myself.  We spent about four or

Page 3950

 1     five hours there.  They began questioning us.  Why I was there, what I

 2     was doing, et cetera.  One of them wanted to be rough with me, but they

 3     stopped him.  And then they continued questioning me to see who I am, why

 4     I was there, et cetera.

 5        Q.   Did they take you anywhere after being in the Titov Vrbas police

 6     station?

 7        A.   They put the two of us into a police car.  Two men sat in front,

 8     one of them held us at gunpoint all the time, and the car was driven by

 9     uniformed policemen.  We went together towards Novi Sad where they

10     brought me to the provincial SUP, the one that covers probably the entire

11     region.  It was a police administration.

12        Q.   And what happened at the provincial SUP?

13        A.   They continued to question me.  I learned later that my colleague

14     was released.  I was kept there.  And around 2.00 a.m., when the

15     policemen and interrogators rotated, they tried to get out of me as much

16     information as they could using the good cop/bad cop routine, but they

17     were obviously not happy that I couldn't tell them because I didn't know

18     what they asked.  Then they brought me to Novi Sad late at night and told

19     me to come back in the morning.  They had kept my car, all the samples

20     that I kept in my car, et cetera.  So later I returned to the same place

21     and interrogation resumed until 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.  They were rougher and

22     rougher all the time, although they didn't beat me.  They threatened to

23     take me to the front line to defend Serbian houses.  And then around 2.00

24     or 3.00 a.m., they drove me away in a car that had no licence plates - I

25     remember that very well - and took me to the next point which I later

Page 3951

 1     learned was called Paragovo where there was a military barracks and

 2     basically turned me over to the army.

 3        Q.   Was there anyone else detained with you at the Paragovo military

 4     barracks?

 5        A.   They took me to a facility that I suppose was a prison.  There

 6     were seven or eight people there already in a room of about 10 to

 7     12 square metres with bars on the windows.  There were some kind of beds

 8     on the floor where people were lying one on top of another.  And the next

 9     morning a military policeman came -- in fact, he was there all the time

10     as a guard.  In the morning they would take us out, line us up.  We would

11     stand with our heads bent down and our hands behind our back.  That

12     lasted throughout the morning.  They made us sweep and clean the compound

13     of the barracks.  And then in the afternoon, they took me again for an

14     interrogation.  The people there were all in uniform, military men, there

15     was one captain, I believe, and another officer whose rank I don't

16     remember.  Anyway, the questioning continued.  They were trying to find

17     out what I know and there was still no violence at that time.  Everything

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20     that's the reason because other people were beaten --

21        Q.   Sorry, could I interject there and ask:  Do you remember who any

22     of the people that were detained with you were, their names or who they

23     were?

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3952

 1     don't know the man's name.  I remember his car was there which means he

 2     had been on his way somewhere when he was detained and he had been there

 3     quite a long time before I came.  And later in the camp I recognised two

 4     or three other men including Dr. Mladen Loncar.  I saw him later at the

 5     camp too.  And there were a couple of reservists who had come there in

 6     uniform and I suppose they were there for trying to dodge military

 7     service.  There were two or three men from Croatian places who refused to

 8     join the reserve in the military, and after this refusal or protest, they

 9     took them to that place.  That's mainly what I remember.

10        Q.   You mentioned that you saw Mladen Loncar at the camp too.  Which

11     camp are you referring to?

12        A.   Later, after two or three days after interrogation, I was placed

13     alone in a car.  There was only a little tiny window facing the driver

14     and they took me I didn't know where, but I later realised it was the

15     Begej [phoen] camp where I met Loncar and another two or three men who

16     had been in Paragovo.

17        Q.   And where is the Begej camp located, in what country?

18        A.   It's in the eastern part of Vojvodina near a place called

19     Srpska Crnja, above Zrenjanin, in Vojvodina.

20        Q.   Is it also -- can it be pronounced Begejci, the name of this

21     camp?

22        A.   Yes.  There's a small town nearby called Begejci.

23        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to ask you some questions about the Begejci camp

24     now --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett, can we go into private session,


Page 3953

 1     please.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

15     you.

16             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, when you first arrived at Begejci camp, how were you

18     received?

19        A.   Frankly speaking, I was afraid being driven in that car because I

20     was thinking all the time about the threat that I was going to Papuk, a

21     war zone, a front line, according to what I'd heard before.  And since

22     they were driving me I don't know where, our first stop was Novi Sad and

23     I thought for a moment they would take me home.  However, the door was

24     opened, there were military policemen with those white belts, and they

25     were saying, "Let's see this birdie, Ustasha, he's going to pay for it."


Page 3954

 1     And then they started threatening me again so obviously they were not

 2     taking me home.  And through that little window facing the driver I could

 3     see some kind of woods and I started getting really worried that they

 4     would do something to me.  But then I realised they were taking me to a

 5     kind of barn with a wire fence around it.  Very roughly they pulled me

 6     out of that vehicle, started hitting me on the neck, saying, "Head down,

 7     hands behind your back."  The man who met me there, a man in uniform,

 8     threw me against the wire fence, beating me all the time.  When he threw

 9     me against the wire fence I tried to make sure I wouldn't be too badly

10     cut, and then they dragged me towards that big barn.  Two men at the

11     entrance took me over, pulled me into the barn, and from the corner of my

12     eye I saw it was a huge space, 30 to 40 square metres.  There were people

13     lying on the floor, covered over the head with army blankets.  Again,

14     there was a military policeman sitting at a desk and he started to

15     interrogate me, who I was, what I was doing, how many people I had

16     killed, what weapon I had used.  All the time I was held by the other

17     two, head down, hands behind the back.  They were getting rougher and

18     rougher, walking around me with a truncheon, and I had the impression

19     that he would hit me with that truncheon so I cringed.  He started

20     cursing my mother and started to hit me -- to kick me in the head but he

21     actually got me in the shoulder.  The other two were already beating me,

22     and after that was over, he ordered that I be relocated to a position

23     where I spent the next month.

24        Q.   If I could just go back through a couple of the details of what

25     you've just told us, firstly, the military policeman that you said pushed

Page 3955

 1     you into the wire fence, do you know his name?

 2        A.   Later I learned that his nickname was Zare.  He had a couple of

 3     nicknames.  We never heard their true names, Vojo, Zare, Rambo, those

 4     were the nicknames that I heard.  Borko was another.  There were some

 5     seven or eight, but not more than ten people whom I saw entering the

 6     barn, or rather, that portion where we were put up.  And there were also

 7     some reserves armed with rifles keeping guard, but they never entered.

 8     There was probably a sort of hierarchy in place.

 9        Q.   And what uniform was this individual nicknamed Zare wearing?

10        A.   He was wearing a JNA uniform and a white belt that he sometimes

11     wore and sometimes didn't.  Anyway, it was a JNA uniform.  Rambo was one

12     of them wearing a camouflage uniform.  That's what I remember.

13        Q.   You mentioned that you came into a big hall and that you were

14     asked questions and physically mistreated by individuals.  Do you know

15     the names of those individuals that mistreated you inside the main hall?

16        A.   The two holding me I later learned had the same status as me,

17     that is, they were prisoners who were some sort of go-betweens between

18     us, the rest of the prisoners, and them, the army.  They had to be by the

19     entrance all the time, that's where they slept, but in shifts.  One of

20     them had to be awake at any point in time.  Whenever one of us had to go

21     to the toilet, we had to report to them.  Or when we were taken to be

22     interrogated, they called our names and took us to the entrance.  It was

23     Mirko from Bilje, I don't know his last name, and they called the other

24     man Krasniqi, he must have been an Albanian.  I don't know how he got

25     there.

Page 3956

 1        Q.   And when these two individuals were holding you, when you first

 2     entered the barn or main hall, did the military policemen tell them to

 3     stop at any occasion?

 4        A.   Nobody said anything.  I later understood that this was the

 5     regular procedure.  Any new arrivals were subjected to the main

 6     procedures -- the procedure.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were being shouted at,

 9     mistreated, and some of them were used as dummies for practicing karate

10     kicks and punches.  They were being beaten for a couple of days and then

11     they were interrogated like me, and it was the same with everyone.  We

12     then covered our heads with blankets so as not to have to look at that,

13     but we couldn't avoid hearing it.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get 65 ter document 2415 on the monitor,

15     please, without this being broadcast publicly and this should be tab 4.

16     We only need the original of this.  It's a diagram.  And could we rotate

17     it 90 degrees clockwise?  Thank you.

18        Q.   Witness, do you recognise this diagram?

19        A.   Yes.  It's a sketch of the Begejci camp.

20        Q.   And who drew this sketch?

21        A.   I did.  I drew it from memory but I don't know when exactly.

22             MR. GILLETT:  If we could get --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see.

24             MR. GILLETT:  If we could get some help from the usher to provide

25     the witness with the equipment.

Page 3957

 1        Q.   I'd ask you, Witness, to indicate with a 1 the location where you

 2     were thrown into the fence when you first arrived at the camp.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   And could you indicate with an arrow the direction that you came

 5     from when you arrived in the vehicle?

 6        A.   I can draw the vehicle, this is where it stopped approximately,

 7     and they dragged me this way.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  And Your Honours will note there are some terms

10     written on the diagram.  There is an English translation attached to some

11     of these -- for most of these terms.  I'll ask the witness that.

12        Q.   One of the locations referred to is a machine-gun nest.  Firstly,

13     do you see the machine-gun nest; and secondly, which direction were the

14     machine-guns facing in the nest?

15        A.   I'll mark it.  And the machine-guns were pointed towards the

16     entrance gate.  There was a machine-gun pointing this way at any point in

17     time.  But there's also a wire fence.  The machine-gun was outside.

18        Q.   And is the wire fence the thin line right beside the machine-gun

19     nest?

20        A.   Right in front of the machine-gun nest, some 10 metres away from

21     the barn gate, the gate to the room in which we were lying.

22             MR. GILLETT:  And I'll note for the record that the machine-gun

23     nest is marked with an X with a triangular top.

24        Q.   Witness, could I ask you to indicate the main barn that you've

25     referred to with a big circle around it.

Page 3958

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Now, within the circle you've just drawn but just to the left of

 3     the rectangular building we see some lines, two more or less parallel

 4     lines with some writing.  Could you explain what they are?

 5        A.   This was a roofed-over spot where we ate.  Food was distributed

 6     there and you could put your plastic plate there on that bar when there

 7     was such food.

 8        Q.   Could you mark with a 2 that location where you ate?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. GILLETT:  Now, Your Honours, I'm going to return to this

12     diagram subsequently with a couple more markings.  So can I suggest that

13     we MFI it for the meanwhile so that we don't end up with multiple copies

14     of the same diagram?

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gillett, we'll MFI the document.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1638, MFI and

17     under seal.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

19             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you very much.

20             Could we now get 65 ter document 6413 on the monitor and that

21     should be tab number 5.  And if we could go to page 2 of this.

22        Q.   Now, looking at the upper picture, if we could focus on that, can

23     you describe what this is?

24        A.   This is the structure that I marked with the number 2, where we

25     ate.  You see it's roofed over, and between these vertical structures

Page 3959

 1     there were places where we could lay our plates.  And you can tell that

 2     this was taken at the time when food was being distributed.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Could we look at the lower picture on the same

 4     page, please.

 5        Q.   Now, these men are all lined up.  What are they doing?

 6        A.   This was the food line.  Normally we had to bow our heads, but we

 7     weren't allowed to stand upright normally.  This was just before food was

 8     distributed.

 9        Q.   Why did you have to bow your heads?

10        A.   We were obliged to do so since we came to Paragovo, you weren't

11     allowed to look at anybody, only look down.  One of the guards who was

12     standing to our right, when one of us looked at him, I was warned but

13     didn't react immediately -- the man looked at the guard and the guard

14     ordered me to slap him on the face because of that.  But I wouldn't do

15     that and then the other man was ordered to slap me.  So we had to bow our

16     heads all the time.

17        Q.   And when the man was ordered to slap you, did he, in fact, do

18     that?

19        A.   Yes, he did but he didn't slap me hard.  He knew that we would

20     both have to bear the consequences if he refused to do so.  I knew too

21     but I didn't care.  I knew that our fate would be the same either way.

22             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would tender this document 6413

23     for admission.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1639.


Page 3960

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 2             If we could go back to the diagram 2415 that was MFI'd as P1638,

 3     please.  And if we could go into private session for just one question.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. GILLETT:

23        Q.   Witness, the small dashes, there's a large number of them inside

24     the main barn, what do they indicate?

25        A.   These are people lying there.  I tried to indicate it that way


Page 3961

 1     when I drew this.  When I was assigned the spot marked 3, the left wall

 2     and the right wall were already full and on the right side almost up to

 3     the gate.  And the spot that I indicated with a 3 was the fourth row.

 4     There must have been about a hundred men in that hall.  Day and night

 5     there was light -- actually, there were reflectors in all four corners

 6     and we spent most of the time lying there on some straw that was -- there

 7     was a concrete floor covered with a bit of straw.  We got a tarpaulin and

 8     a blanket.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  And I suggest if -- when -- if this is eventually

10     admitted it is under seal.  We probably don't need a redaction of the

11     reference to the number 3 from a moment ago.

12        Q.   Witness, when -- while you were detained in this hall, what was

13     the total number of -- approximate total number of detainees that were

14     detained there during the time you were there?

15        A.   When I entered the barn for the first time, I suppose there must

16     have been some 300 people in there.  Some of them had arrived a month

17     before me.  Later on some 500 or 530 in all.  Once there were 500-odd

18     people in there, then some of them had to sleep in the troughs for

19     feeding livestock.  Not sure about the exact term.  I think it's called a

20     trough where you put the feed for the livestock.

21        Q.   That's correct.  And where did the majority of these detainees

22     come from?

23        A.   The eastern part of Slavonia, that is, Opatovac, Ilok, Bapska,

24     Sotin, up until the fall of Vukovar and from this -- this spot marked 3,

25     down to the gate all the places were taken by people from Vukovar,

Page 3962

 1     civilians.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now get 65 ter document 2916.1 on the

 3     monitor, please.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What about this one?

 5             MR. GILLETT:  I'll be coming back to it so could we maintain the

 6     MFI status as P1638.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But we'll have to save it, then, with the new

 8     markings.  Thanks.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you very much.

10             Thank you.

11        Q.   Now, Witness, here we have a list of persons that are listed as

12     being detained at the Begejci camp.  In proofing, did you go through this

13     list and mark the individuals who you recognised?

14        A.   Yes, I had a look at the list and marked some people.

15             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we've highlighted those markings.  If

16     you look at page 5, for example, we should see one of those come up.  And

17     through the rest of the list you'll see similar markings.

18        Q.   In relation to the individual shown here - and I won't state his

19     name in the interests of not identifying yourself - could you describe

20     how he was treated when he was at Begejci?

21        A.   He was lying very close to where I was, the spot marked 3, that

22     is.  He had gone through everything that I had to go through, but I also

23     know from other people that he hung for two days from a pole with his

24     hands tied and he suffered consequences because probably his -- the

25     nerves of his -- some nerves in his body were damaged.  And of course he

Page 3963

 1     was beaten, which was the normal procedure.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  And you'll notice, Your Honours, on this list he's

 3     identified eight individuals, but the witness's name is not featured on

 4     the list.

 5        Q.   So, Mr. Witness, could I ask you why it is that there are so few

 6     out of the several hundred that you recognise and why your own name is

 7     not on this list?

 8        A.   I was from elsewhere.  These are mostly people from some

 9     villages, they all knew each other, and those who compiled this list

10     couldn't have known my name.  But mostly everybody there belonged to

11     groups of co-villagers or fellow townsmen from Eastern Slavonia.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would seek the admission of 2916.1

13     and that will have to be under seal.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked under seal.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1640.  Thank

16     you.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, you mentioned a moment ago that there were -- people

20     in the hall were civilians.  What proportion of the detainees in the main

21     hall were civilians?

22        A.   A small number of them just across from where I was wore

23     uniforms.  There were about 20 of them and they were said to belong to

24     the ZNG from Belisce.  Everyone else was civilians as far as I know.

25     They were still wearing some parts of camouflage uniforms.  According to

Page 3964

 1     the stories I heard, that group had been betrayed because they were

 2     headed to a position on the Hungarian border but they had been surrounded

 3     and taken to Beli Manastir where they were put in dogs' cages, and some

 4     of them were wounded allegedly by dogs who were turned at them.  Later on

 5     their wounds were treated and bandaged; we saw that.

 6        Q.   What ethnicity were the majority of the detainees?

 7        A.   There were mostly Croats.  Some of them were Romanians, three or

 8     four of them.  There were two black men from Sri Lanka, allegedly.  They

 9     were students.  There were even some Serbs.  That's what I know.

10        Q.   How were the Serbs treated?

11        A.   The same way as we were as far as I was able to observe.  There

12     weren't many of them.  I remember two or three of them who were close to

13     where I was, but they were treated the same way as we were.

14        Q.   You've mentioned that you were mistreated in various ways and

15     other detainees were as well.  So why would the Serb guards mistreat

16     other Serbs who were detained at Begejci?

17        A.   Well, I suppose that these Serbs who found themselves there

18     probably did not agree with the current politics, they didn't want to put

19     on a uniform, they didn't want to go fight in other areas in Croatia or

20     Bosnia later, and thus they were condemned to be treated the same like

21     us.

22        Q.   I'm going to ask you a few questions about the conditions at

23     Begejci.  First, what was the temperature like when you were there in

24     late 1991?

25        A.   It was already cold and it was getting colder and colder as the

Page 3965

 1     winter went on.  It was very difficult to stand because we only had the

 2     clothes in which we were arrested.  In that whole month we were allowed

 3     to have a bath only once some seven days before the exchange.  We could

 4     never change our clothes, our shoes, or anything.  The first week out of

 5     fear and the pressure created by interrogation, for instance, unless you

 6     respond immediately when called out, you get beaten.  So for the first

 7     ten days I never took my shoes off, terribly worried that something would

 8     go wrong if I do.  Anyway, people wore the clothes in which they were

 9     arrested.  Some even put plastic bags on their heads because of the

10     draft.  It was a very old barn.  There were no conditions for normal

11     living.

12        Q.   Were you provided with medical care?

13        A.   As for medical assistance, a lady doctor would come two or three

14     times to change the bandages of those uniformed detainees from the home

15     guard and this job was taken over later by Dr. Loncar, I suppose because

16     when they realised there was a physician among us, they didn't want to

17     invite anyone from outside anymore.  There was also a man who was a cook

18     by occupation, so basically we did all the work ourselves.  I suppose,

19     but I can only suppose, that they wanted to bring in as few outsiders as

20     possible.

21        Q.   And did the female medical personnel or Dr. Loncar have adequate

22     facilities to care for the injuries to the detainees?

23        A.   I know he had some bandages and some pills like painkillers,

24     nothing much because there were people who were missing pieces of flesh.

25   (redacted)

Page 3966

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Perhaps we should get a redaction just of that last

 4     reference to the sleeping location.

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, you have described being pushed into the wire fence

 6     when you first arrived and then being beaten in the barn on that first

 7     day upon arrival.  Aside from those two instances, were you physically

 8     mistreated on any other occasions at the camp?

 9        A.   After three or four nights spent in that barn when there was

10     mistreatment every night, five or six reservists would come in, and I'll

11     describe one case in particular when they came with those German

12     Shepherds that were normally kept within the compound inside the wire

13     fence.  They brought those dogs inside and one dog was breathing hard

14     right into my ear.  At that moment the image in my head of those people

15     with bite wounds and the people who were running from one side to another

16     on their orders, trampling all over the rest of us.  All the time there

17     was some kind of torture going on.  But one of the routines in the camp

18     was that all the newcomers had to go through this torture, all of it,

19     before they would be interrogated.

20             Since I was alone, I was brought there as an individual, those

21     six men in JNA uniforms took turns beating me.  One had a truncheon and

22     beat me on the left leg, probably wanting to bring me down, and I had

23     been forewarned that if I do fall they would start kicking me.  So he hit

24     me three or four times on my upper leg and the last time he missed and

25     hit one of his colleagues.  Then I was taken over by this man called Zare

Page 3967

 1     who said, "Give him to me."  He took off my watch, he beat me on the

 2     head, he hit me with his knee in the stomach, and until I started

 3     bleeding from the mouth he wouldn't stop beating me.  When they saw I was

 4     bleeding, they stopped beating me.  Of course for the next ten days I

 5     wasn't able to stand up from the pain in my stomach and generally.  I

 6     had -- I needed help to stand up.  And the same happened to everyone

 7     there.  They would be taken out to interrogation every three or four

 8     days.

 9        Q.   You mentioned in your last answer that "people were running from

10     one side to another on their orders, trampling all over the rest of us."

11     Could you tell us whose orders these were?

12        A.   Those few men who were allowed to go into the barn, Zare, Borko,

13     the men I've already mentioned, that one called Vojo.  But Zare stands

14     out in my memory because of all the ugly things that he did to me.

15        Q.   And in relation to those individuals you've just named, you

16     talked about the uniforms they wore.  Do you know anything else about

17     their background?

18        A.   In the night where this was happening, and they were wont to come

19     into the barn when they were drunk and mistreat us, one of them said he

20     didn't care where he was - we overheard their conversation - he said he

21     didn't care whether he was in prison, behind bars, or behind a wire

22     fence.  So I suppose those were people who had been serving a prison

23     sentence and then they converted into reservists and continued to serve

24     in that way.  Zare had scars on his face from some prior brawls, I

25     suppose, but these are all my assumptions.  That's all I remember.

Page 3968

 1        Q.   You've mentioned interrogations.  Were you, yourself,

 2     interrogated at Begejci?

 3        A.   After this torture I was taken to the premises drawn in the first

 4     part.  There was hay on the floor.  And again they made me write

 5     statements, several pages, but they would come back in all the time and

 6     beat me, saying I had written too little.  And sometimes I was called out

 7     to go to the different location where I was interrogated.  The last time

 8     they called me out, they took me to the dormitory of those men I've

 9     mentioned because I saw their beds there.  I found a sergeant in that

10     room, his feet on the desk, a bottle of brandy on the desk, and there

11     were another two or three who pushed me onto a bed.

12             First of all, they brought in that briefcase with which I had

13     come containing the documents of my company and other information.  The

14     briefcase had to be opened before them and they had the code, but I later

15     realised the point was to take the money that was inside because, in the

16     end, I didn't find the valuables and the money that had been there.

17     There was also this thing like a Taser and the man to whom the bed

18     belonged threatened that he would kill me because I had lain on his bed

19     being dirty as I was.  It was all very strange, but the point was

20     obviously to open my briefcase and take what they wanted.

21        Q.   What types of questions did they ask you?

22        A.   The routine was always the same:  How many people did you kill?

23     What kind of weapon did you carry?  You are a spy, and even if you're not

24     a spy, you are a hardened Ustasha.  And they called us other name.  The

25     point was only mistreatment and abuse because whatever answer you gave,

Page 3969

 1     it didn't matter.  They would always find a reason to abuse us more.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, I see we're at 10.15.  Is that time

 3     for the break or is it 10.30?

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  10.30.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.

 6        Q.   You mentioned the dormitory.

 7             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get document 2415 - which is the one

 8     that's been MFI'd P1638 - on the monitor.

 9        Q.   And with the usher's assistance, if you could indicate with a

10     number 4 the location where you were interrogated by the individual with

11     the brandy.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   You said that there were another two or three there at the same

14     time, do you know who they were?  During that interrogation.

15        A.   They were standing by me and hitting me.  At one point that man

16     came with a Taser and waved it in my face, but they didn't really use it.

17     The interrogations were such that people fainted as soon as they were

18     called out.  It's hard to tell you about everybody's experience, but I

19     know about Dr. Loncar and a blue car would come for him, and I know that

20     he was shaking like a leaf every time he knew he had to go out.

21        Q.   And at any time did they tell you the reason for which you were

22     detained at the Begejci camp?

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3970

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get a redaction just of the lines of that

 6     last answer referring to the relatives.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett.

 8             MR. GILLETT:  Yeah.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please inform the Registrar of what

10     exactly you want to redact in -- with your previous question -- the

11     previous redaction request you did, it's not quite clear what you want to

12     have redacted.

13             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So for this one it's okay, but for the previous

15     one ...

16             MR. GILLETT:  The previous one.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah.

18             MR. GILLETT:  Perhaps I could check that at the break?  Is

19     that --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, of course.

21             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett.

24             MR. GILLETT:  Yeah.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We need to implement it right away.

Page 3971

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So you'll have to look it up.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Sure.  This was page 22, line 21, and it's the

 4     location of where he was sleeping, the person he was sleeping next to.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just line --

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Just line 21.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- 21?  Thank you.

 8             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, while you were at Begejci, did anyone die?

10        A.   One man died -- perhaps I should show it on the picture.  He was

11     at the same level as I but next to the wall.  We had been ordered out.

12     He failed to get up and then they realised what had happened, and I know

13     Dr. Loncar took him to Zrenjanin, under escort, of course.  He was

14     transferred to Zrenjanin.  That's the information I have.  The man

15     succumbed to the beatings.  He was an older man.

16        Q.   And was he a civilian or a soldier, do you know?

17        A.   A civilian surely.  That entire area, only those 20 facing me

18     were not civilians; all the rest were.

19        Q.   Were you yourself threatened with death at all?

20        A.   Once we were taken out earlier than usual and lined up to sing

21     the anthem because one of the officers was leaving for Vukovar.  All this

22     was happening before the fall of Vukovar.  Two or three days later, the

23     news came that he had been killed in Vukovar and then we were subjected

24     to special mistreatment in that camp.  We were lined up.  An execution

25     squad was standing there prepared.  They orchestrated the whole show of

Page 3972

 1     an execution, and we believed we would be killed.  So they staged it all

 2     to make us believe that we would be executed then and there, and

 3     ultimately they let us go back into the barn.  But it's something you

 4     can't forget.  And they threatened us all the time that Chetniks would

 5     come and slit our throats.  We had to listen to that all the time.

 6        Q.   Were there any women detained at Begejci while you were there?

 7        A.   There were around 20 women after the fall of Vukovar.  I remember

 8     one of them who spent five or six days together with us in the barn.  Her

 9     hands were tied, and looking at this sketch she was on the same side

10     where this man died.  Those women were later transferred to the same

11     building that housed our guards' dormitory.  Those guards were military

12     policemen or whatever I should call them.

13        Q.   And for clarity, is that the building marked here with a 4 on the

14     diagram?

15        A.   Yes, that's building number 4.  That's where those women stayed

16     until the end, I don't know in which room exactly.  We would see them

17     around that building or outside the building, so we assumed they were

18     there the whole time.

19        Q.   What ethnicity were these women?

20        A.   I was in no position to talk to them and we were not allowed to

21     talk freely anyway, but I suppose they were from Vukovar.  I suppose most

22     of them were Croat.

23        Q.   With the usher's help, could you indicate where they were located

24     for the first few days in the main barn, if you could use a number 5 to

25     indicate that.

Page 3973

 1        A.   So this part here where that man died, the one who succumbed to

 2     the beatings, marked with green.  There were around 20 of them there.

 3        Q.   Could I ask you to place the number 5 next to that.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, at this stage we would tender this

 6     diagram which has been MFI'd as P1638, under seal.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked under seal, please.

 8             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Witness, in relation to these women, are you aware of any of them

10     being mistreated?

11        A.   I didn't see anything, but I heard later that there had been

12     rapes, that they were -- raped some of them.

13        Q.   Are you aware of who carried out these rapes?

14        A.   I can only suppose they were raped by men who were guarding them,

15     by the guards, but that's only my assumption.  I didn't see it.  I can

16     only tell you what I heard and what I can suppose.

17        Q.   Are you aware of any of these women suffering injuries or being

18     injured?

19        A.   The older woman had a broken arm and she was sitting there the

20     whole time.  That's how I still remember her, with her arm broken.  She

21     was a case that needed to be moved to the hospital, and even without

22     that, the living conditions there were totally inadequate.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get the photograph which is 65 ter

24     document 6415, if that's all right, on the monitor.  And I see the time,

25     I think we should be able to deal with this quite quickly.


Page 3974

 1        Q.   Now, Witness, were these the women detained at Begejci?

 2        A.   I cannot recognise anyone, but that's what they would have looked

 3     like.  Only this person wearing something very white could be the woman

 4     with a broken arm but I cannot recognise the face.  It was a long time

 5     ago, after all.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we'd tender that for admission.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object because the witness did not

 8     recognise anyone on the picture.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  In light of that objection, we would simply ask to

10     MFI for a subsequent witness.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That will be MFI'd, Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Should be assigned Exhibit Number P1641, MFI'd.

13     Thank you.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. GILLETT:  And I see that the time is now ready for the break.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

17             Mr. Witness, we will take the first break now.  We'll come back

18     at 11.00.  The Court usher will escort you out of court.  Thank you.

19     Just one moment, please.  Just one moment.

20             Closed session, please.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3975

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.

10             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Witness, before the break, you mentioned that you had to

12     report to the guards whenever you needed to go to the toilet.  Where were

13     the toilets?

14        A.   The toilet was to the right of the barn.  And to go to the toilet

15     you had to go out, and before that you had to report to those two guys,

16     Mirko or Krasniqi had to know about it, and in front of the gate by the

17     machine-gun nest there were guards armed with rifles.  And at night,

18     people going to the toilet were sometimes mistreated.  They were made to

19     sing songs or -- national anthems or sometimes they had to push their

20     heads through the wire fence.  So people were afraid of going to the

21     toilet at night.  It was important to know the words of the Yugoslav

22     national anthem by heart because if they forced you to sing it and you

23     didn't know the words, then you would be beaten.  There were the two

24     black men from Sri Lanka who didn't speak the language, had the words of

25     the national anthem written to them, we wrote down the words for them so


Page 3976

 1     they could rehearse the words because they too had to sing the Yugoslav

 2     national anthem.

 3        Q.   Now, who was in charge of the Begejci camp as far as you're

 4     aware?

 5        A.   I don't know, I'm not sure about his rank.  I think he was a

 6     major and his last name was Zivanovic.  A man by that name was mentioned

 7     at the time and he was the highest-ranking person there.  I think he was

 8     a major but I don't remember exactly.

 9        Q.   And for the avoidance of any doubt, he was a major in what army?

10        A.   The JNA.

11        Q.   You also mentioned earlier that the ICRC or, sorry, the Red Cross

12     visited on one occasion.  When they visited, were they able to see all of

13     the detainees?

14        A.   When the Red Cross was expected to come to make a list of us,

15     some ten people or so were hidden.  One was said to be a sniper, but the

16     man was so cross-eyed that it was difficult to imagine that he had been a

17     sniper.  We had to state our personal information to the Red Cross

18     representative.  There were people at various places inside that barn who

19     would make a list of us and we gave them our personal information.

20             MR. GILLETT:  Could we go into private session for the next

21     couple of questions, please.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 3977

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. GILLETT:

25        Q.   Aside from the visits you've just mentioned, were there any other


Page 3978

 1     visits of people from outside the camp that you're aware of?

 2        A.   There were soldiers, mostly reserve soldiers, who were keeping

 3     guard also could receive visitors during the weekend when the

 4     high-ranking officers were away.  When we were let out of the barn, we

 5     saw people looking toward us and they were being told how many people any

 6     of us had killed.  It felt like in a zoo, as if we were animals being

 7     shown to the visitors.  It was very ugly.

 8        Q.   Were there ever any TV crews present at the camp?

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get a redaction there of the last

13     reference to the relative.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That will be done.

15             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

16        Q.   And, Witness, when did you eventually leave the Begejci camp

17     approximately?

18        A.   Must have been in early December, maybe on the 10th.  There was

19     an exchange to which we were taken by bus.  Our belongings were returned

20     to us then, so people were able to get some things back, and a bus took

21     us to Bosanski Samac where we were exchanged.  We also saw buses from

22     other camps.  There was some 600 of us who were exchanged for some 120

23     officers from Bjelovar.  The exchange took place at Bosanski Samac.

24             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get 65 ter document 793 on the monitor,

25     please.

Page 3979

 1        Q.   Witness, this article refers to a group of over 600 exchanged

 2     persons who had been held at Begejci, Stajicevo, and Nis arriving in

 3     Zagreb on 12th of December.  Is this the same group that you were part of

 4     that was exchanged?

 5        A.   Yes, this could be it.

 6        Q.   The article refers to a location called Kutija Sibica where they

 7     stayed for a night.  What is that location?  It's in the first paragraph,

 8     the last line in English.

 9        A.   Yes, I can see it.  Kutija Sibica is a sports hall in Zagreb

10     where people were received.  I was among them and it was at Kutija

11     Sibica.  Probably there were other places too.  I spent the night in that

12     hall.  There were doctors, whoever wanted to be examined could, and there

13     were beds in that sports hall.  That's where we were received.  After

14     that, we went home.

15        Q.   And the people that were exchanged in the same group, were they

16     civilians or soldiers or was it a mix of civilians and soldiers from the

17     people that had been detained in the camps that were exchanged?

18        A.   I suppose that three-quarters of the men at Begejci were

19     exchanged and then there were people from other camps because there was a

20     total of 600-odd people.  And the people who were with me from Begejci

21     were civilians.  There was only a group of about 20 men whom I saw

22     wearing uniforms.

23             MR. GILLETT:  We would seek to admit document 793.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1642.  Thank

Page 3980

 1     you.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 3             Could we now get document 789.  This is also a newspaper article

 4     and this should be tab 3.

 5        Q.   And while that's coming up I'll note the article has a quote from

 6     an individual called Griesbacher or Griesbacher.  Do you know who this

 7     individual is?

 8        A.   Griesbacher was the leader of that group of 20 soldiers belonging

 9     to the ZNG.  They were from Belisce and the surrounding villages.

10        Q.   And he says that they could hear the screams -- sorry, I'm just

11     finding the quote.  The screams of those being beaten by the federal

12     soldiers.  People died without treatment.  You've mentioned one person

13     dying while you were at Begejci.  Are you aware of other people dying in

14     detention?

15        A.   There was a group that went to other camps to work.  Allegedly,

16     three more camps were to be opened in the vicinity of Zrenjanin.  And

17     these people spread information about how many people killed or were

18     killed or died.  They are mentioning these beatings, but that was the

19     normal procedure.  Everybody who arrived was beaten up.

20             MR. GILLETT:  We would seek to tender this document at this time.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P1643.  Thank

23     you.

24             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Witness, prior to you're arrest originally in Titov Vrbas that

Page 3981

 1     you described, were you involved in events in Suhopolje?

 2        A.   Upon returning from Zagreb, I was heading for Novi Sad when,

 3     around 5.00 or 5.30 a.m., a friend called me up asking me to come to a

 4     building there.  Other people from Suhopolje were there and they were

 5     forming a Crisis Staff - that's what they called it - for the village.

 6     And they also invited me because an attack on relatively large barracks

 7     was being prepared.  They had appeals to the personnel of the barracks to

 8     surrender and we were called in to help in the organisation.  A bus was

 9     nearby.  There were no weapons.  I understood that to be some sort of

10     civil protection at the time.  The barracks surrendered, and later we

11     were deployed in the streets as guards and later on we went home.  That

12     was all.

13        Q.   And were you armed at the -- during these events?

14        A.   I didn't have any weapons.  Some individuals had so-called light

15     weapons, such as pistols or hunting rifles or make-shift rifles.  I

16     didn't see any weapons where I was.  The one who relieved me as sentry

17     was armed with a hunting rifle.

18        Q.   And were you in a uniform?

19        A.   No.  I was wearing blue jeans and a leather jacket.  In a word, I

20     was in civilian clothes and everybody else was too.

21        Q.   Final question:  What impact did your detention at Begejci have

22     on your life and what impact did it have on the life of other detainees

23     that you're aware of?

24        A.   After that experience, there are probably physical consequences.

25     I had frequent kidney inflammations because we had to lie on the concrete


Page 3982

 1     floor.  And the mental consequences, I don't know, for many nights after

 2     the exchange I couldn't sleep, I had nightmares, but I was able to

 3     overcome that more or less.  Of course, I cannot forget that experience.

 4     As regards my family life, I never consummated my first marriage and --

 5     well, in a word, the consequence is that I haven't been the same man I

 6     was before.

 7             The most difficult thing is to describe the mental state I was in

 8     and everything I went through during my stay at that camp because I was

 9     in constant fear that I might be shot or that I might fare badly.  It's

10     very difficult to describe what you feel in such a situation.  Of course

11     whatever -- however skilful I may be or anyone may be with words, the

12     listener can never fully appreciate what we went through.

13             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, that completes my questions on direct

14     examination.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Cross-examination.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  I'm Zoran Zivanovic.  I

19     am the Defence counsel of Goran Hadzic.  I'm going to ask you some

20     questions about your testimony today.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, just one moment, please.

22             Mr. Witness, as you and Mr. Zivanovic speak the same language but

23     it has to be interpreted so that we can understand it as well, would you

24     please be careful not to start your answer too shortly or too quickly

25     after the question so that there is no overlap and even a little pause

Page 3983

 1     between.  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] I saw in your earlier statements that you were

 4     interrogated several times after your arrest on the 5th of November and

 5     you said that, even at the beginning, the person interrogating you knew

 6     many details from your life.  Is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  If you mean the interrogation at the provincial SUP, I was

 8     surprised, to be honest.  There was a man with a dark complexion and he

 9     knew many names of people from where I was and he almost knew what I was

10     wearing at any point in time.  I don't know where he got that information

11     from.

12        Q.   And you know that you were among the guards at Suhopolje when the

13     barracks was taken?

14        A.   He even knew where exactly I was standing.

15        Q.   Can you please tell me the following.  You said that the number

16     one man at Begejci, where you were taken later, was a major of the JNA by

17     the name of Zivanovic?

18        A.   I believe that was his last name.

19        Q.   Did you have any contact with him?

20        A.   I only saw him from a distance.

21        Q.   Given the mistreatment you underwent and other detainees too, did

22     anyone contact him to tell him what was going on?

23        A.   There was no way of getting close to him.  There was a procedure

24     in place.  I mentioned the two men at the exit or at the barn gate, Mirko

25     and Krasniqi, and they were the go-betweens between us and the military

Page 3984

 1     police.  That was the only way you could reach anybody.  I never heard of

 2     anyone talking to him.

 3        Q.   When you mentioned Mirko and Krasniqi, were they in uniform?

 4        A.   No, no.  They had the same treatment as the rest of us.  We were

 5     all camp inmates.  They were dressed the same as the rest of us.  They

 6     were chosen, probably, among all those people to be intermediaries of

 7     sort.

 8        Q.   You mean like room monitors but they were basically also

 9     detainees?

10        A.   Yes, they were camp inmates who I heard had been beaten something

11     horrible when they first arrived.

12        Q.   I want to ask you something.  You connected the beatings with the

13     interrogations that followed?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Was it normal procedure for a prisoner to be beaten first and

16     then taken to some sort of interrogation?

17        A.   I told you already the whole story about myself, but all the camp

18     inmates went through the same.  When they arrived, they would be beaten

19     at the entrance to the barn.  The rest of us were lying down, covered

20     over the head with blankets, and we would have to stay that way until

21     they finished.  Then the new person would be given a place in the barn.

22     A few days later they would be called out and beaten again, and then they

23     would be called out to be taken outside of the barn to be questioned.

24        Q.   And who did the beatings?

25        A.   Only those who were allowed to go into the barn.  There were just

Page 3985

 1     a few of them.  I told you their nicknames or what they called each

 2     other, Zare, Borko, Vojo, Rambo.  There was one man whom they called

 3     Sergeant.  About seven or eight of them.  They were designated persons

 4     who came in.  There were other reservists, older men, who were standing

 5     guard at certain points behind the wire fence.

 6        Q.   Now you've enumerated all these names.  Can you tell me, were

 7     they wearing some uniforms or civilian clothes?

 8        A.   They were in JNA uniforms.  From the start in Paragovo, all of

 9     them were military policemen with the distinctive white belts, which they

10     didn't wear all the time, but they had those white belts which are a

11     distinctive mark of the military police.

12        Q.   Tell me about the interrogations.  Were they conducted again by

13     military policemen with those white belts or by men who were dressed

14     differently?

15        A.   That depends on the stage of interrogation.  In Paragovo they

16     were officers who interrogated us.  There was a major and a captain, I

17     believe.  Later there was a sergeant with that bottle of brandy who I

18     mentioned, but I'm not sure about this point because this was a weekend

19     so I'm not sure it was official.  But after that the incident when six of

20     them beat them, I went through the regular routine; that is to say, I was

21     brought by the military policemen, I passed by their dormitory, and then

22     among some heaps of hay, I received a piece of paper on which I was

23     supposed to write my fifth or sixth statement.  Then I was beaten by

24     military policemen who said I hadn't written enough.  There were mice

25     running all around me.  While I was writing, a mouse skipped across the

Page 3986

 1     desk, so you can imagine the environment.

 2        Q.   Let's clear one thing up.  So in Paragovo you were questioned by

 3     JNA officers?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in Begejci later, those were military policemen?

 6        A.   Yes, military policemen.  I was taken out later for the

 7     verification of my written statement, but it was done in the way I

 8     described.  I was alone in that room where I wrote that so-called

 9     statement, and then I was summoned by an officer to explain my statement.

10     They were probably comparing that statement with the previous ones.

11        Q.   Can you remember that officer whom you were brought for the

12     purpose of checking your statement?  Did he have a white belt like the

13     military police or did he have a normal officer uniform?

14        A.   I can't remember the one who was in Begejci.  He was certainly in

15     uniform, but I cannot remember his face anymore.

16        Q.   Can you remember his rank?

17        A.   There were mainly captains, majors.  In Paragovo and in the other

18     place, there were no warrant officers or other NCOs.

19        Q.   Excuse me, just a moment.

20             That time when you were taken for your statement to be checked,

21     apart from you and that officer, was there anyone else?

22        A.   They were always in twos.  They came and went.  That had no

23     special significance.  They just wanted to check the statement.  I did

24     not get any bad treatment on that occasion, I wasn't beaten.  That's not

25     what I remember it for.

Page 3987

 1        Q.   Did you perhaps complain to that officer about the treatment you

 2     had?

 3        A.   It was not possible to complain because there had been statements

 4     by camp inmates referring to the Geneva Conventions and the answer was --

 5     you can imagine.  We were treated there like dogs.  You felt like you

 6     were less than nothing.  There was no question of complaining or even

 7     saying anything.  You could only get even worse things coming, more

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             MR. GILLETT:  Sorry to interrupt.  Should we get a redaction?

14     I'm not sure how many relatives of inmates visited at the time so I'm

15     trying to be stuck to that line.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I agree.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] I wanted to ask you one more thing.  If I

19     understood you correctly, you were afraid to complain to that officer

20     because then things would have gotten even worse for you?

21        A.   Right.  I mean, everybody got the same treatment.  Everybody was

22     afraid to say anything.  There was no point in it.  Because you were

23     simply unable to understand why any of that was happening at all.

24        Q.   I see that in your previous answer you mentioned that there were

25     some people who had invoked Geneva Conventions.  I wonder where did they

Page 3988

 1     invoke the conventions, with the officers who interrogated them or with

 2     military policemen?

 3        A.   In my hearing they mentioned it to military policemen and, of

 4     course, the answer was very coarse, very rude, explaining in no uncertain

 5     terms what the military policemen thought about Geneva Conventions.  So

 6     these people never dared to mention it again.

 7        Q.   And none of them mentioned it later to those officers?

 8        A.   We could not get access to these officers except through the

 9     military policemen or those two men, Krasniqi and the other one.

10        Q.   And during the verification of your statements and during

11     questioning, I suppose at least their statements were also verified?

12        A.   People were beaten, at least that's what I heard when they came

13     back, and there were even people who fainted from fear the moment their

14     names were called out.

15        Q.   I understood that part, but did any of those who were invited,

16     like you were, to verify their statement before JNA officers, did any one

17     of them complain to the JNA officers and invoke Geneva Conventions there?

18        A.   I don't know.  I don't think so, and in any case there was no

19     point because no one was interested.  If they had any intention to

20     improve our living conditions, they could have.  Instead, it was what it

21     was.  At one point we were all -- we all had our heads shaven because

22     somebody got lice, and if we got one single bath just before the

23     exchange, you can imagine.  They were aware of all that.  There were no

24     basic living conditions, there was no food.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you,


Page 3989

 1     Your Honours.  I am done.

 2             I just finished my cross-examination, but it is not in the

 3     transcript.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             Re-direct.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Gillett:

 8        Q.   Witness, in your last answer you were describing how the

 9     detainees had their heads shaven and the living conditions and lack of

10     food and you said:  "They were aware of all that."

11             Who do you mean when you say "they were aware of all that"?

12        A.   I mean the superior officers of the JNA who were in command there

13     practically.  They were able to order for something to be changed or not.

14     They saw the living conditions and I said this in answer to this question

15     about why we didn't complain to the officers invoking Geneva Conventions.

16     That was my answer to that question.

17             MR. GILLETT:  No further questions on re-direct.  Thank you,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I have a little

22     question to clear something up, I mean something on the transcript

23     page 37, lines 18 through 25.  You were talking about the crisis

24     committee in Suhopolje before your arrest in Titov Vrbas.  I did not

25     understand what this crisis committee or Crisis Staff was all about.  Was


Page 3990

 1     it a little one made up of a few persons or was it a large assembly with

 2     a great number of participants?

 3        A.   They were residents, local residents, of Suhopolje.  My former

 4     schoolmates, people with whom I had grown up.  They organised themselves.

 5     It was like any other Crisis Staff that is normally organised in case of

 6     a natural disaster, in an effort to deal with the problems.  In this

 7     case, they had organised themselves to defend themselves in case

 8     something happened, and in this case they were also afraid of what might

 9     happen if the army left the barracks and went away.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So what was the role of this

11     Crisis Staff?  Was it to stop the army from leaving the barracks or to

12     fight against outside assailants?

13        A.   If I understand anything, they were not really able to put up any

14     defence or to stop the army because they had no weapons, nothing.  They

15     just organised themselves because it was done everywhere.  There was also

16     something called civilian protection and they organised themselves in the

17     same way.  That's the way I understand it.  I wasn't living there at the

18     time, but when I happened to be there, I was invited by friends and I

19     worked together with them at that moment, while I was there.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] All right.  I understand better

21     now.  This is enough.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, this brings an end to your

23     testimony.  We thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.

24     You are now released as a witness.  We wish you a safe journey home.  The

25     court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you very much.


Page 3991

 1             Closed session, please.

 2                           [Closed session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

14     you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please go ahead, Mr. Stringer.

16             MR. STRINGER:  I'll try to be as brief as possible.  The next

17     witness testified previously in a different case and the Defence had

18     asked or was asking if there was a B/C/S transcript of his prior ICTY

19     testimony and there is not.  Those are not made by the Tribunal, they --

20     it's possible they exist for other reasons but not for this witness.

21     The -- what's normally done in these situations is the audio -- the

22     audiotape of the prior testimony in B/C/S can serve as the B/C/S version,

23     although the practice has been that we have not been disclosing those to

24     the Defence as a matter of course.  They're available to all parties from

25     the Registry.  But in any event, we don't have the B/C/S audio of the


Page 3992

 1     witness's prior testimony, and the Defence, it's my understanding, has --

 2     would like to have some possibility for the accused to review that prior

 3     testimony before the witness testifies.  And we had never obtained that

 4     previously from the Registry.  I think the Defence also had never

 5     obtained that previously.

 6             And so the suggestion - and obviously subject to what my learned

 7     friend might say - we've been in touch during the breaks today and with

 8     Registry and we think we can have the audio portion available from

 9     Registry this afternoon.  It has to be processed and it could then be

10     made available to the Defence to enable the accused, Mr. Hadzic, to at

11     least hear the prior testimony and consult with counsel before the

12     witness testifies.

13             The witness is down for just one hour of direct examination.  As

14     I indicated in earlier -- in an e-mail to the Chamber, we've -- we had

15     the possibility of coming up short this week because the next witness has

16     to absolutely positively testify within the given time-frame.  So I think

17     there's ample time.  So the suggestion would be to break for the rest of

18     today, to obtain the audio B/C/S version, make it available to the

19     Defence, which would give the accused some time to review that before the

20     examination begins.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Anything from the Defence?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Mr. President.  Our position would be that

23     under 66(A)(ii), Mr. Hadzic is entitled to the prior statements of the

24     witness, and we say that that's -- that is satisfied in respect of prior

25     statements that are not Rule 92 ter if it's just the audio.  When it is a

Page 3993

 1     92 ter statement, consultation with the client is, of course, made very

 2     difficult if we're working from a long series of transcripts and trying

 3     to compare that with an audiotape.  So, first of all, we would just like

 4     to make a standing request at this point that somehow the resources of

 5     the Tribunal be deployed so that if a 92 ter statement is being submitted

 6     in the form of transcripts of prior testimony, that we also have a B/C/S

 7     version of those transcripts.  There are other cases in which transcripts

 8     have been generated, possibly by outside agencies, but they are on the

 9     ICTY web site.  So I understand it's not beyond the capacity of the

10     Tribunal to do that.

11             Now, what occurred in this case and what has happened in previous

12     cases - and there have only been, I think, about two witnesses prior to

13     this where the 92 ter statement was in the form of prior testimony, and

14     we on the Defence noticed that that was the case and requested an

15     audiotape or an audio of the testimony and provided it to Mr. Hadzic for

16     consultation.  In this case, we didn't notice until too late that we

17     hadn't received that disclosure of the prior testimony of the witness.

18     And so we would now say that -- and even though we haven't done it in the

19     past, we do believe there's an obligation for the Prosecution to give

20     that to us, the audiotape, of any prior testimony of the witness,

21     particularly when it's going to be tendered as a 92 ter statement.  And

22     on that basis, we would at least request that the witness be delayed

23     until tomorrow so that Mr. Hadzic has the opportunity to review that

24     audiotape.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to make sure that we understand correctly.

Page 3994

 1     The statement -- the testimony we are speaking about right now, is that

 2     the 92 ter statement?

 3             MR. STRINGER:  That's correct, Mr. President, yes.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  It's testimony from an earlier ICTY case.  If I

 6     could just make a couple additional comments --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  -- in response.  As counsel's indicated, there are

 9     two prior witnesses for whom a transcript was the 92 ter statement.  And,

10     first of all, it's never been suggested previously that there is a

11     disclosure obligation for the Prosecution to provide and to -- what will

12     essentially be an obligation to make a transcript in B/C/S where one

13     doesn't already exist.  This is new.  We've talked over the break about

14     trying to see if we can, first of all, identify the number of additional

15     witnesses to come for whom this might be an issue and to see who they

16     are, to see what we can do about that.

17             I think if the Prosecution undertook to assist in producing B/C/S

18     transcripts of English versions of ICTY transcripts, it's something that

19     we would do voluntarily not as something that is an obligation.  Both of

20     the parties in this case have access to the audiotapes of all witnesses'

21     prior testimonies in the related cases to this one.  So there's nothing

22     uneven about access.

23             CLSS, the people who do translations, generally I'm quite

24     confident their position certainly has consistently in my experience been

25     that they don't do transcripts, they do translations.  Here we're just

Page 3995

 1     talking about having someone listen to the audio in B/C/S and to write

 2     down in B/C/S a transcript of that; CLSS won't do that.

 3             So I guess my observations are, number one, it's not a disclosure

 4     obligation that can be attributed to the Prosecution.  Having said that,

 5     we can look and see who the remaining witnesses are and whether OTP

 6     staff, because ultimately it will be OTP language staff, the people who

 7     sit in the proofing sessions, et cetera, who would be asked to make the

 8     transcript for the Defence.  And I'm open to a discussion along those

 9     lines, but that's for the witnesses to come.  So those are my -- I guess

10     my remarks in response.  We don't see it as a disclosure obligation.

11             The transcripts from the Seselj case do exist in B/C/S.  I think

12     that was an order that was issued specifically to that case because there

13     was a self-represented accused in that case.  In addition, as counsel's

14     mentioned, there are some NGOs, some bodies, outside of the Tribunal that

15     have undertaken to produce B/C/S transcripts of ICTY proceedings, but

16     it's really hit-or-miss as to whether they've selected a witness who

17     might actually be a witness in this case.  So -- but in any event that's

18     perhaps for future just the point being that we don't believe that -- and

19     we would resist and I guess oppose the Defence request or suggestion that

20     there's a disclosure obligation to require the Prosecution to generate

21     B/C/S transcripts of ICTY testimony.  There's no disclosure violation.  I

22     don't think that's being suggested.  But the witness's prior evidence,

23     the statement in English, has gone across a long time ago.  They missed

24     it.  We weren't aware it was a problem because it's not been raised in

25     the past.

Page 3996

 1             JUDGE HALL:  As a matter of curiosity, have there been -- when

 2     these transcripts are produced externally, have issues of authenticity

 3     arisen which have had to be resolved?

 4             MR. STRINGER:  We have not tendered any of those outside

 5     transcripts into evidence as Rule 92 ter statement in this case.  There

 6     is one witness who I can think of for whom this was done, that is to say,

 7     an outside body made a B/C/S transcript of his prior ICTY evidence that's

 8     been disclosed to the Defence.  If we have that, we would obviously

 9     disclose it, but we don't go looking for those to outside bodies to see

10     who might have made a transcript of a Prosecution witness.  Again, that's

11     a source that is -- those are being made to make that available to the

12     public.  And so anybody can go get those transcripts.  So we haven't used

13     those and would not tender one of those as a 92 ter statement in this

14     case, which -- and along the same lines, should the OTP make a B/C/S

15     transcript of one of these in a spirit of co-operation with the Defence

16     for any subsequent witnesses who are yet to come, because it's an OTP

17     transcript made by a language assistant and it's not going to be an

18     official Tribunal transcript, that we would necessarily -- would be

19     looking to label as an official transcript.  That's only coming from

20     CLSS.  And as I said, I don't think they do those.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  If I may very briefly --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  If I may very briefly, Mr. President, just to

25     clarify the situation.  We have neither the audio nor a transcript in

Page 3997

 1     respect of this particular 92 ter statement and that's really the core of

 2     the problem that we're dealing with right now.  Going forward -- and if

 3     any of my remarks were interpreted as an allegation of misconduct or

 4     reproach, that was not the intention.  We are in somewhat of a grey area,

 5     but nonetheless, we say that under 66(A)(ii), that obligation does rest

 6     on the Prosecution to provide prior statements of the witnesses and we

 7     believe there is jurisprudence that says that that must be provided in

 8     the language of the accused.  Now, that may be satisfied by audio,

 9     Mr. President, and ultimately that may be the position taken by the

10     Chamber, but you may understand how difficult it is to work with a very

11     long, lengthy audio, without time marks in relation to a long transcript.

12     It does make that work difficult and there is also the issue of

13     translation.  But what we're primarily concerned with is being able to be

14     on the same page, so to speak, in English and in the language of the

15     accused.  So we would, indeed, be requesting that both a transcript and

16     the audio be provided in the future.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For the moment we will have to decide on the

18     problem for the next witness, and I do agree that the best thing to do is

19     to adjourn for the day and to give the Defence the opportunity to listen

20     to the audio which will be provided by the Prosecutor.  Am I -- is that a

21     good understanding of what you were saying, Mr. Stringer?

22             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President, the Prosecution, our case

23     manager, has already been in touch with Registry.  There's been some

24     consultation with the Registry personnel already, and we're told that the

25     audio can be provided to the Prosecution this afternoon.  There may be an

Page 3998

 1     additional logistical issue that might even perhaps require the Chamber's

 2     involvement in terms of providing the disk to the accused at the

 3     Detention Unit because there are some procedures that come into play on

 4     those -- on that issue.  But I think that -- my guess is that Registry

 5     should be able to look after that.  Once we've provided -- once we have

 6     the disk and have it ready, there's -- I think the Prosecution's not in a

 7     position to ensure that it actually goes to the UNDU.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But I suppose that with the help of the Registry

 9     that would work?

10             Mr. Registrar.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, the Registrar tells me that you

13     should then provide the disk before 4.00.  Would that be possible?

14             MR. STRINGER:  Assuming we can obtain it from Registry, we will

15     give it to Registry before 4.00.  There is some technical processing that

16     has to happen apparently before --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I will not try to understand that, Mr. Stringer.

18             The issue about how to deal with this in the future, I think we

19     need a little bit of time to think that one over and we might even ask

20     for written submissions on that matter, but if so, we will let you know.

21             MR. STRINGER:  On that point, it -- today we're going to look to

22     see whether -- how many remaining 92 ter witnesses are those for whom a

23     transcript is their statement, I think it's not many, and it may be that

24     working with the Defence we can find an arrangement that would -- if

25     they're satisfied with what we're able to produce, we might have enough

Page 3999

 1     time to make that happen.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             If that is all, court adjourned.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.07 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

 6                           May, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.