Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4614

 1                           Tuesday, 14 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14     Douglas Stringer, Alex Demirdjian, Thomas Laugel, and Lucia Laporte for

15     the Prosecution.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

21             The witness may be brought in.

22             And just to be sure that it is on the record, we will not sit on

23     the 27th of May.  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25                           [The witness takes the stand]


Page 4615

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's see whether we can finish your testimony in

 4     this first session.

 5             Mr. Gosnell.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  I certainly think we can do that Mr. President.

 7     Thank you.  Good morning.

 8                           WITNESS:  REYNAUD THEUNENS [Resumed]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell: [Continued]

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

11        A.   Good morning, Mr. Gosnell.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 6122 back up on the screen, please,

13     which is the document we were looking at when we finished yesterday.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Theunens, you remember that one of the first questions I

15     asked you at the beginning of this cross-examination was whether

16     inspection is an indication of authority.  And you said, well, it depends

17     on the context and please show me the context and the documents.  And

18     here we have a document and a context.  Do you think in this context that

19     inspecting these local TOs staffs, local communes, police stations, is

20     that an indication of authority?

21        A.   Your Honours, yes, indeed.  Looking at the document and paragraph

22     1 as to who will conduct those inspections, I agree with Mr. Gosnell's

23     proposition.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could go please to the bottom of the page 4

25     in the English.  Item 7.  Yes, there it is.

Page 4616

 1        Q.   And what we see in item 7 is some support for your review about

 2     the advisory function.  It says the town command officers be included as

 3     groups of advisors to the executive council of the municipality where the

 4     town command is, et cetera.  And then if we turn the page, item 8:

 5             "This order shall be realised quickly and efficiently by strictly

 6     adhering to the deadlines as this is a precondition for the territory of

 7     the SO to be organised satisfactorily for the arrival of UN peacekeeping

 8     forces.

 9             "The civilian affairs organs, town commands, and municipal

10     executive councils are responsible for the accurate and timely execution

11     of this order."

12             Now do you see here, Mr. Theunens, that what's happening is that

13     an order is being issued by this JNA commander not only to elements of

14     the JNA but to the municipal executive councils?

15        A.   Your Honour, could I -- I mean, the -- see the list -- list of

16     addressees, maybe I mentioned at the beginning of the document or maybe

17     at the end.  I can only see half of a page on this screen, so ... because

18     that could be of assistance.

19        Q.   There are no addressees indicated on the document.

20        A.   Well, then, I mean, this would be the -- if I would agree with

21     you, it would be the first time that I see a JNA document where a JNA

22     officer is ordering municipal authorities.  The proposition you make I

23     would not agree with you.  I would also like to emphasise it's not quote

24     unquote my view, but it's just -- it's sufficient to read the various

25     instructions from the SSNO and the 1st Military District from November

Page 4617

 1     and December 1991 in order to really establish that the JNA from the 20th

 2     of November onwards only has a supporting role in relation to civilian

 3     authority and their establishment -- and its establishment, I'm sorry.

 4     That -- yeah, that the JNA has only a supporting role in relation to

 5     civilian authority and its establishment.

 6        Q.   Could we have 6172, please.  Prosecution tab 650.

 7             This is from Major-General Mico Delic commander of the

 8     1st Mechanized Corps.  It's dated either the 1st or the 3rd of April,

 9     1992.  It's addressed to the commands of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 453rd,

10     Mechanized Brigade and the 252nd Armoured Brigade, and the town command

11     of Ilok and Mirkovci.

12             "Although this command, and particularly its organ for civil

13     affairs, pointed out a number of times and issued written orders

14     regulating the procedure of how the unit commands and town commands are

15     to deal with found and abandoned state and private property and

16     facilities.  There have been instances of omissions and weaknesses and

17     for this reason we once again point out the following ..."

18              "Commissions should be formed with the local civilian

19     authorities to inventory and seal it; use of found appropriate and

20     facilities is within the purview of the local civilian authorities which

21     must regulate their distribution and the right to use by other persons

22     with a decision, record, and other written documents in close

23     co-operation with the town commands."

24             "Unit and town commands and particularly the organs for civilian

25     affairs and its officers must monitor the work of the local civilian

Page 4618

 1     authorities, offering advice and guidance in the matter in order to adopt

 2     the right decisions which would benefit the local inhabitants."

 3             Does that appear to you to reflect purely an advisory function?

 4        A.   Advisory and assisting function.

 5        Q.   You wouldn't infer any sense of control, authority, direction in

 6     respect of those activities?

 7        A.   I think we should make a distinction.  This order is sent to a

 8     number of JNA units and more specifically the organs within these JNA

 9     units that constitute town commands.  In relation to them, yes, there are

10     strict instructions.  But overall, when it comes to the subject matter of

11     dealing with abandoned property - and there the trial can see the other

12     paragraphs of the document, for example paragraph 3 and 4 - again, it --

13     it is consistent with the earlier instructions and orders I have

14     mentioned already a few times during the past days concerning the role of

15     the JNA and its support to the local SAO SBWS civilian authorities.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  We tender this document, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit D54.  Thank you.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  6165, please.  Prosecution tab 645.

20        Q.   This is from the Command -- commander of the 252nd Armoured

21     Brigade, a certain Jovan Vuckovic.  Report on the selection and

22     appointment of officers to command duties in police organs.

23     Jovan Stevic, son of Aleksandar, lieutenant-colonel in the armoured

24     mechanized unit, et cetera, has expressed a wish to be appointed Chief of

25     Staff of the Vukovar police brigade with the establishment rank of

Page 4619

 1     lieutenant-colonel."  He is now temporarily working in the 252nd Armoured

 2     Brigade."

 3             What is this about and what units are being referred to?

 4        A.   Well, Your Honours, this is what we saw in the examination; that

 5     is, in spring 1992 prior to the arrival of UN peacekeeping troops in --

 6     in the UNPAs, so the United Nations Protected Areas as defined by the

 7     Vance Plan, the SSNO issues instructions to establish an RSK TO, i.e., to

 8     restructure existing units and so on, but to come to a more uniform and

 9     organised structure, and it includes also a support, I think even similar

10     support, in relation to an RSK MUP, i.e., police, and for what Slavonia,

11     Baranja, and Western Srem is concerned this also includes the transfer of

12     JNA personnel to the -- to the RSK and in this case SBWS MUP.

13        Q.   And what role do you say the JNA has in the appointments?

14        A.   Your Honours, we have seen documents that they appoint people but

15     at this moment I'm not sure -- I mean, if you can show me the document

16     again.  I'm sorry to repeat this.  This is all from the new -- I think

17     this is part of the new report and there, if I had the new report in

18     front of me, I could point you to other documents.  Now I just have to

19     look at each document separately and try to recall which document I saw

20     in which trial which over a time-period of nine years is a bit of a

21     challenge.  But what I'm trying to say is that I have seen documents that

22     the JNA is appointing personnel to the RSK TO.  At this moment, I don't

23     recall whether the JNA or the SSNO is also appointing personnel to the

24     RSK MUP.  In this document here, there is just an expression of interest

25     of a JNA member to become a member of the RSK MUP.

Page 4620

 1        Q.   And you remember that there's still an imminent threat of war in

 2     effect in the SFRY as of this date; correct?

 3        A.   If you say so, you know, I recall a decision --

 4        Q.   Well, I do say so and maybe I can just -- [Overlapping

 5     speakers] ...

 6        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... if I can answer the question that was.

 7             Your Honours, I remember that a decision is adopted at one moment

 8     in time, I think it's later in 1992, to retract this imminent state of

 9     war.  Now, none of the documents we have seen so far, none of the SSNO

10     documents I have seen and we have discussed makes a reference to this

11     decision or to this state of imminent threat of war, so I'm not sure to

12     what extent it was really determining the events.  We are looking at a

13     very de facto situation where - and again, this is something I mentioned

14     over the past days, but I think it's important to clarify it again -

15     where existing laws are being bent and adjusted in order to implement

16     certain measures and where bodies that are not foreseen in SFRY

17     legislation as SAOs and their civilian authorities and their own TO

18     legalized and -- and -- and again, so for me the determining factor is

19     not whether or not a state of imminent threat of war was really into

20     effect at that moment in time.

21        Q.   We may have lost the LiveNote, Mr. President.  At least as it

22     comes through the computers.  If Your Honours are all right, we can

23     proceed.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

25             THE WITNESS:  I'm fine, too.

Page 4621

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We have it on one screen and on the other

 3     screen, that's the screen that you can mark, where you can mark the

 4     transcript.  So we have no problem for the moment.  If you don't, we can

 5     continue.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  I can proceed, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Please do.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  We would tender that document, please.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Correct, Your Honours.  This one has already been

11     admitted and marked as P1697.  Thank you.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P1704, please, which is Prosecution

13     tab 661.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

15             MR. GOSNELL:

16        Q.   This is -- [Microphone not activated].

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. GOSNELL:

19        Q.   This is from the civilian affairs organ of the -- well, it

20     doesn't say which unit.  But they are reporting to the command of the

21     1st Mechanized Corps and they're reporting on the state of the police in

22     Mirkovci village.  So again this is the same village we've been talking

23     about.  It says:

24             "Pursuant to the work-plan of organs for civilian affairs of the

25     1st Mechanized Corps command an inspection and review of the state of the

Page 4622

 1     Mirkovci police station was carried out on 15 May [sic] 1992 ..."

 2             Then there is a discussion of the condition of the police

 3     station.  And if we could go to page 2 at the bottom we see some

 4     conclusions.  And the conclusion is:

 5             "In terms of personnel and expertise, the police station can

 6     carry out its functional duties following the withdrawal of the JNA from

 7     this area, but the question of supplying the peacetime force with

 8     weapons, uniforms, communications equipment, meals, and fuel needs to be

 9     resolved.  The personnel allocated on a temporary basis from the Serbian

10     MUP are expressing dissatisfaction with the whole system of organisation

11     of the police in Krajina and have therefore filed a request for their

12     withdrawal, which would severely undermine the police station's system of

13     work."

14             So am I right that and do you know from other documents that the

15     Serbian MUP was still involved in setting up or shoring up police

16     stations in this area around let's say into May 1992?

17        A.   Your Honours, I think we also addressed that during examination,

18     that is, that as is indicated in the documents up -- at least up to the

19     deployment of UN forces in the area, there was a presence of members of

20     the MUP of the Republic of Serbia in SBWS, and from my activities outside

21     ICTY, and more specifically when I was serving in peacekeeping

22     operations, in -- in the Balkans, we understood - when I say "we" that

23     was UNPROFOR - that there was still, I mean, even up to 1995, a presence

24     of members of the MUP Serbia in SBWS including as members of the local

25     Serb police.

Page 4623

 1        Q.   I appreciate your reference to your own UNPROFOR experience, and

 2     I'd ask you to draw on that with my next question.

 3             When you read that final conclusion, would you agree that it

 4     seems that the JNA is scrutinising whether conditions are ripe for a

 5     hand-over to the UNPROFOR forces?  Is that the point?

 6        A.   Maybe it's -- it's a question of language.  I mean, English is

 7     not my first language, but I would word it slightly different because

 8     it's not so much -- I mean, the hand-over to the UN is -- is not

 9     something to decide -- or not part of the Vance Plan, I'm sorry.  The

10     Vance Plan foresees demilitarisation, demobilization, and disbanding of

11     local armed structures, as well as withdrawal of the JNA and the ZNG.

12     That's one aspect of the Vance Plan.  A second aspect is the deployment

13     of a lightly armed UN force.  But there is no formal hand-over foreseen

14     in the Vance plan between the JNA and UNPROFOR.

15        Q.   The SFRY is a party to the Vance agreement and the JNA is an

16     organ of the SFRY, so what I'm asking is do you think that what's going

17     on here is pursuant to perceived obligations by the JNA vis-a-vis the

18     Vance Plan?

19        A.   What we can say is that the SFRY -- that excuse me.  The SFRY

20     political authorities are concerned about the situation in -- in -- in

21     the -- in the territory covered by the RSK.  And in relation then to the

22     specific paragraph, yeah, they want to know what is the -- the state

23     of -- of -- of functioning or the state of readiness is of the RSK police

24     because according to the Vance Plan this is the only armed structure the

25     Serbs are allowed to maintain in the UNPAS.

Page 4624

 1        Q.   Is it the JNA's obligation as an organ of the SFRY to ensure that

 2     those conditions are fulfilled?

 3        A.   Again, I'm reluctant to use the word or the expression

 4     "obligation" because I have seen orders, and as I mentioned earlier to

 5     the JNA, to provide support to assisting in -- in -- in organising the

 6     RSK TO even if it's not allowed anymore according to the Vance Plan, but

 7     I haven't seen a document or I don't recall seeing a document that the

 8     JNA is -- is obliged or is ordered by the SFRY political authorities to

 9     ensure the -- the -- the complete state of readiness or the highest state

10     of readiness of the RSK police.

11        Q.   You testified at page 4309:

12             "It was well-known that there were disputes or, in particular,

13     among the JNA, about the nature of the conflict, whether it was an

14     international or an internal armed conflict."

15             Can you tell us who thought it was an international armed

16     conflict?

17        A.   I'm not -- we would have to look at the 27th of

18     November memorandum, that is, I think we discussed it during examination.

19     That is this agreed between JNA or SFRY armed forces, the Croatian side,

20     I think there were people there from the ZNG --

21        Q.   Let's bring that up for your benefit, Mr. Theunens, just before

22     you continue with your answer.  It could assist you in your answer, sir.

23        A.   Yeah.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 00722, which is I believe Prosecution

25     tab 211.

Page 4625

 1        Q.   So there it is.  I don't know if there's a particular page you'd

 2     like to look at, sir.

 3        A.   I mean, I don't know by heart in which page this is being

 4     discussed, but what I was trying to say that is that then there is a

 5     reply to that, and this is in the amalgamated report, where I think the

 6     member of the legal administration in the SFRY armed forces state, well,

 7     irrespective of this and this and this, i.e., the memorandum, we consider

 8     the conflict still an internal conflict.  My reference to what I called

 9     dispute or -- yeah, dispute concerning the nature of the conflict, I also

10     remember from my - and this is not from documents but from my

11     participation in witness interviews, and these witnesses were senior JNA

12     officers, that some of them stated, for example, that only after

13     October 1991, i.e., when the moratorium imposed by the European community

14     at that time on Croatia's declaration of independence of -- of 25th of

15     June 1991, when that moratorium had expired, that then, well, okay, at

16     that -- only at that moment the conflict transformed into an

17     international armed conflict.

18             You will see that in none of my reports in all those years I have

19     dealt with the question of whether it was an international or a -- or not

20     an international armed conflict because this is really outside my

21     expertise.  When answering the question, I only tried to provide

22     information I had come across while working here and while reviewing

23     documents, without issuing any -- any opinion or any analysis to that.

24        Q.   Does it follow from the fact that certain JNA officers considered

25     this to be an international armed conflict, as you say, that they

Page 4626

 1     considered the SBWS region to be occupied territory?

 2        A.   I -- I cannot answer that question, Your Honours, because it's --

 3     it's too -- I mean, first of all, it's too broad, and secondly I didn't

 4     go into, I mean, when participating with these -- participating in

 5     witness interviews for senior JNA officers, I didn't go into discussion

 6     of whether it was national or international conflict because, again,

 7     it's -- for me it's a legal issue that is outside the scope of my

 8     professional activities.

 9        Q.   Well, you've talked about the JNA's understanding of

10     international criminal law and how that's incorporated into SFRY

11     legislation.  That appears to be within what you consider the scope of

12     your report.  You can't tell us whether under SFRY law if a conflict is

13     considered international, that the territory occupied in the other state

14     is considered occupied territory when the JNA is present there?

15        A.   Your Honours, I -- I think I answered the question.  I can -- I

16     can repeat what I consider most relevant elements of my answer.

17             That is, that I haven't seen any -- except for the comment by the

18     legal administration on this memorandum, I haven't seen any JNA documents

19     indicating that it's -- whether it's an internal or an international

20     conflict.  I don't remember seeing in the various reports and orders at

21     the various levels of command SFRY armed forces, the military districts,

22     operation groups, or tactical groups any change in approach between let's

23     say the period prior to October 1991 and after October 1991, so there's

24     not much more -- not much -- anything else relevant I can say to this --

25     to your question.

Page 4627

 1        Q.   I suppose that also means that you can't tell us anything about

 2     whether or not the JNA considered itself bound by any specific or

 3     particular obligations based on that view that it was an international

 4     armed conflict and according to me that that was occupied territory?

 5        A.   Mr. Gosnell, I -- I mean, I don't dispute your view because I

 6     have nothing relevant to say about it for the Trial Chamber.  I think

 7     there are other witnesses who are better qualified to that.  I mean, your

 8     view on occupied territory, but the JNA did not consider itself bound.  I

 9     mean, please have a look at the instructions by Kadijevic, Adzic, Panic,

10     I mean, and the other generals in relation to the obligation of the JNA

11     and its subordinate forces at all times to abide by the international

12     laws of war.  Maybe they don't specifically refer to the internationals

13     laws of war as a concept, but we have the 1988 regulations which were

14     valid during the conflict.  We have also the various orders and

15     instructions where they talk about the need for proper treatment of the

16     civilian population, prisoners, prevent looting, and so on and so on.  So

17     the JNA was aware of -- of these obligations.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P171, please, Prosecution tab 596.

19        Q.   Sir, you've looked at this document during your direct

20     examination.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar, for that.

22        Q.   And I've noticed that you're very good on occasion at noticing

23     translation mistakes.

24        A.   I'm not sure what you mean by "on occasion."

25        Q.   Well, I mean, sometimes I've notice that you catch translation

Page 4628

 1     mistakes, and I'm going to direct your -- so what I'm saying is that I

 2     know that you have some facility in B/C/S; is that right?

 3        A.   I mean, after eight years I think it's reasonable to expect that

 4     one would be able to -- to understand a little bit of or at least some --

 5     a little bit, yeah, sorry, of military terminology.

 6        Q.   Now, if we can look at the second paragraph and if you could

 7     focus your attention on the B/C/S second paragraph, can you tell us

 8     whether it says that the Serbian region of Baranja, East Slavonia, and

 9     west Srem will be represented by the prime minister?

10        A.   No, I can't.  I mean, I see -- I see President Zunik Vlade and

11     ministry and so on, but, I mean, which are not so difficult to understand

12     those expressions, but I wouldn't be able to find a verb or to -- to --

13     to establish from the B/C/S what their role would be.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Could with we have the interpreters, please, read

15     the words following on from where it says "while the Serbian region."

16             I'm not sure if they have the document in front of them, the

17     interpreters.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you give us a more precise reference on

19     the screen.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes.  It's the second paragraph of the document.

21     And it's the words following from:  "... while the Serbian region ..."

22             Perhaps --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The representative of the government.  A

24     representative of the government, ministers of the interior, and national

25     defence, and the commander of the TO staff.

Page 4629

 1             MR. GOSNELL:

 2        Q.   Mr. Theunens, did you hear the translation?

 3        A.   I think I missed the first part because I just heard the name of

 4     individuals or functions, but not more.

 5        Q.   The interpreter translated it as a representative of the

 6     government.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  One letter, the letter A, is missing in the

 8     word representative, "Predstvnik," the letter A is missing.  It's just a

 9     typo.

10             MR. GOSNELL:

11        Q.   So there appears to be a typographical error but the word is

12     nevertheless representative, aside from that typographical error.

13        A.   I understand, Your Honours.  I see that there is -- I mean,

14     whereas the English text refers to prime minister.  Given -- based on the

15     translation we hear now, it -- in fact it should be somebody else.  If I

16     understood -- yeah, I think that is the point you wish to make, but I

17     guess -- I mean, it's easy to establish.  You don't need me for that.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P17 --

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, is this as far as you go with this

20     translation error or will you tender a revised translation.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm not sure what the right procedure is but we

22     would make a request to CLSS for a revised translation.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think that would be appropriate, yes, indeed.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Apparently a request has already been made,

25     Mr. President.

Page 4630

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  P1710, please.  Prosecution tab 586.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, this is -- as it's coming up on the screen, it's a

 4     report by Milos Miljevic, the assistant commander for civil affairs.

 5     He's a colonel in the 1st Proletarian Mechanised Division, and he's

 6     reporting on the government session as it says in the subject line, and

 7     just to contextualise this document, sir, you might remember that this --

 8     this follows the exchange of letters between Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Belic,

 9     Colonel Belic in Ilok.  And there -- so this appears to be some kind of a

10     follow-up.  Well, it may not be.  We don't know.  But in any event,

11     that's what it might be.

12        A.   Yeah --

13        Q.   And if we -- sorry, sir, did you want to say something?

14        A.   Yeah.  I mean, I think you answered the question yourself.  I

15     understand that -- I mean, there's the exchange of letters of the 23rd of

16     December, 25th of December, and this is happening on the 31st of

17     December.  Whether there's any link between the two, I cannot establish.

18     Certainly not when just seeing document by document on the screen.  But I

19     think you answered that yourself, that we don't know.

20        Q.   I appreciate that.  Thank you.  Now if we could go to page 2,

21     please.  And you commented on this document during your direct

22     examination.

23             What we see -- the words that we see reported there as having

24     been uttered by the person identified as the deputy prime minister,

25     namely Bogunovic, the words that are reported as being uttered are:

Page 4631

 1             "We do not know what our goals are.  We want the structure here

 2     to change.  Some people do not understand military administration well."

 3             Now, just looking at those words before we go on to the

 4     interpretation given by the officer here, those words don't in any way

 5     condone or indicate that the policy of the government of the SBWS is

 6     ethnic cleansing, do they?

 7        A.   No.  But I think the military -- I mean, the drafter of the

 8     report doesn't use the expression "ethnic cleansing."  He talks about to

 9     change the structure of the population.  He adds "at all costs," whereas

10     the deputy prime minister talks about "we want the structure here to

11     change."  I can only rely on the conclusion of the drafter of the

12     document that the deputy prime minister, when using the expression

13     "structure," actually means the structure of the population.  When I say

14     I can only rely on the views expressed by the drafter, then I -- of the

15     document, then I will also look at other documents, and then I see that

16     actually this -- this conclusion by the drafter of the document is

17     supported by the developments on the ground during that time-period.

18        Q.   Well, developments on the ground doesn't mean it's government

19     policy, does it?

20        A.   Well, we would have to look at the documents.  And again, I'm

21     sorry to repeat it, but in the -- in the report I compiled in September,

22     I -- I put all the documents that were available to me and my conclusion

23     was that there was a pattern whereby the government at least condones,

24     i.e., doesn't prevent, and according to JNA officers, some members or

25     people affiliated with the SAO SBWS government actually actively

Page 4632

 1     participate in changing the ethnic structure of the population during

 2     that time-period.

 3             And just to finish it, I don't think we have discussed these --

 4     these reports, but the reports of the UN Secretary-General on the

 5     implementation of the mandate date of the UN peacekeeping forces in

 6     Croatia during 1992, I quote from a number of them, indicate or actually

 7     confirm that this harassment and other pressure on members of minorities

 8     is continuing throughout 1992 and even later.

 9        Q.   Yet none of the documents at all show that anyone in the district

10     government is in any way active - as you just said now - none of the

11     documents show that anyone from the district government is involved in

12     events of ethnic cleansing or putting pressure on Croats to leave.

13     Unless you take for -- as true the allegation that Devetak is somehow a

14     part of the district government, which we say he certainly isn't.

15        A.   I mean, that's your view.  You know, I would -- maybe the

16     Prosecution is going to bring up these documents again, but I don't know

17     by heart all the documents I have included in the new report so I can't

18     answer your question.

19        Q.   But just coming back to the words that are reported as having

20     been said by Bogunovic.  When he says we want the structure here to

21     change, and then that's immediately followed by a reference to some

22     people do not understand military administration well, doesn't it seem to

23     that you the structure that's being complained about or that needs to be

24     changed has to do with martial law in this area, which is basically what

25     I say we have?

Page 4633

 1        A.   Your Honours, yeah, I remember you referred in the previous days

 2     that there was military rule, and I remember in the reply Colonel, I

 3     think, Begic sends to General Hadzic on the 25th December 1991, he puts

 4     military rule between quotation marks or he express some doubts about the

 5     use of the expression "military rule" in reply to the letter of Hadzic of

 6     the 23rd of December, 1991, now use martial law.  I don't remember that

 7     martial law was in effect in SBWS at that moment.  Again, show me a

 8     document.

 9        Q.   Well, it's the imminent -- it's the declaration of the imminent

10     threat of war of the 1st of October, 1991, which is still in effect into

11     May, I say.  But I really don't want to get bogged down in that detail.

12             What I'm going to now do is just proceed to the next couple of

13     sentences in this report because I think they're quite vital to

14     understanding what really is being expressed here.  And what it says, and

15     I suggest that you've misread this, Mr. Theunens, just to be clear.  What

16     it says is:

17             "These quotes illustrate that the government wants to change the

18     structure of the population at all costs.  Even by pushing them under the

19     impact of artillery in the zone of intense combat activities, 'while we

20     do not know what our goal is,' can mean that 'why doesn't that army free

21     the whole of Slavonia and hand us over the authority on a plate?'

22              "His support of immigration, even in the zone of intense combat

23     activities did not cease even after the warning by a representative of

24     the Division Command that we did not recommend populating refugees to the

25     west of Tovarnik to spare them from experiencing exodus twice."

Page 4634

 1             Now let's just understand where Tovarnik is.  Isn't it right that

 2     Tovarnik is a village that's close to the confrontation line with

 3     Croatian forces?  In fact, it's the western limit, if I can just remind

 4     you, of the southern area, if you recall.

 5        A.   Yes.  It's the south western limit, and I think it's close to the

 6     highway -- I mean, where the highway cuts or crosses through Western

 7     Srem.  It's on the western -- south-western limit of the -- of the

 8     confrontation line as it is in that time-period.

 9        Q.   And if you look at the passage that I just read, you see two

10     references to intense combat activities, and I suggest that that shows

11     that these two concepts are linked and that what this colonel is

12     complaining about is not that the district authorities are talking about

13     forcing Croats out of the area.  He's talking about forcing the Slavonian

14     refugees to move into areas that the army considers unstable.  Isn't that

15     what's being talked about here in terms of changing the structure of the

16     population?

17        A.   I would agree with you if there wasn't the word "even" in the

18     fourth line, or -- sorry, near the fourth line of that paragraph, because

19     for sure he is talking about immigration, i.e., the resettlement of

20     Serbian refugees from other areas.  Resettlement in Eastern Slavonia,

21     Baranja, and Western Srem.  But I don't think it's -- it's -- he is

22     exclusively talking about that.

23        Q.   Why does the word "even" change that?  Here we have the person

24     expressing alarm or he is disconcerted and that's why he uses the word

25     "even" because he is suggesting that the district government is pushing

Page 4635

 1     people into these areas even though they're unstable.  There is artillery

 2     being fired there.  Isn't that why he is using the word "even"?

 3        A.   For me, the -- the use of the expression "even" means that there

 4     are -- the population structure is also changed in other matters --

 5     manners, sorry, in other ways.  And that -- I mean, the most serious --

 6     or the most negative, ways, I'm sorry, of changing the population is by

 7     pushing them under the impact of artillery according to the author of the

 8     document.

 9        Q.   Aside from this document and the previous document, have you seen

10     any indications that there were any contacts between the JNA and the

11     district government of the SBWS from August 1991 until May 1992?

12        A.   I wouldn't be able to answer the question, Your Honours, because

13     I don't have the documents in front of me.  I mean, all these questions

14     you are asking are referring to documents that were made available after

15     the expiration of the deadline for the submission of the amalgamated

16     report.  In the amalgamated report, I think there are very few documents

17     we never -- I mean, my view is that because never obtained such documents

18     from -- from FRY or Serbia.

19        Q.   Sir, you said you are not a political analyst and you have said

20     that commenting on the legal implications of the Law on All People's --

21     excuse me, on the legal implications of a declaration of imminent state

22     of war are beyond your expertise, and yet you have quite comfortably,

23     based on your review of RSK legislation, come to the conclusion - which I

24     suggest is a quasi-legal conclusion - that Mr. Hadzic as president or as

25     prime minister of the RSK becomes Commander-in-Chief of the RSK armed

Page 4636

 1     forces.

 2             How is it, considering that you don't speak B/C/S, you claim

 3     you're not an expert in legal matters, and you don't know the political

 4     background that might assist in understanding the Law on Defence that was

 5     passed, how is it that you are able to come to the conclusion that the

 6     provisions in that law mean that Mr. Hadzic is the Commander-in-Chief?

 7        A.   Could you please show me the passage in my report where I use the

 8     expression "Commander-in-Chief" because I don't recall that.  I usually

 9     use the expression or the language used in the documents and there it's

10     "Supreme Commander."

11        Q.   I'll correct myself.  You did use the words "Supreme Commander"

12     and it was during your testimony here.

13        A.   Well, then I would -- I think it would help to have the law in

14     front of us, and then if it says that the president of the republic is --

15     commands the armed forces in those and those conditions or is the

16     Supreme Commander, I don't think one needs to be a legal expert to

17     understand that.

18        Q.   If you could go to page 370 of your report, sir, and while we're

19     doing that if we could also bring up L46, please, which is somewhere on

20     the Prosecution's list.  And if we could go to page 3 of L46, which is

21     Article 6.

22        A.   Yeah, what I was trying to say is that when you look at the

23     article, Article 6 of the 1992 RSK Law on Defence, it states:  The

24     president of the republic leads, I mean title 1, leads the armed forces

25     in the peacetimes and in times of war.

Page 4637

 1             I don't think it -- it requires a legal expertise to understand

 2     what the role of the president then is in relation to the armed forces.

 3     I think it's also -- should also be clear that, for example -- I mean, in

 4     any country an officer pleads allegiance to the constitution and the laws

 5     of his war.  I did the same in Belgium in 1984, if I remember well.

 6     Well, it wouldn't make much sense to plead allegiance to something that I

 7     don't understand as a military officer, so I would be confident that

 8     officers serving in the SVK or prior to that the RSK TO understood what

 9     was meant by, for example, this first sentence of Article 6 without

10     having a degree in law or other legal expertise.

11        Q.   Is the prime minister in a parliamentary system with cabinet

12     responsibility the Supreme Commander of the forces in that country?

13        A.   Your Honour, I would have to look at the specific document

14     because each country may have its own definition and its own provisions

15     as to who is the Supreme Commander.

16        Q.   So you allow that that might not be the case, that the person who

17     is the prime minister is not necessarily the Supreme Commander of the

18     armed forces?

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, I think this is a fair question to

20     the witness, to be urged to answer questions about other systems he

21     didn't -- he didn't examine?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I'm -- I'm attempting to explore the concept

23     as to whether the person who is identified as the senior political

24     figure, in quotation marks, must of necessity be the Supreme Commander,

25     and that was a concept that was relied on by Mr. Theunens in his direct

Page 4638

 1     testimony when he said that Mr. Hadzic must be the Supreme Commander

 2     because he was the leading political figure.

 3             So it's the concept that I'm attempting to explore.  I don't -- I

 4     don't know what was the basis, Mr. President, for him saying that at this

 5     stage.

 6             THE WITNESS:  I mean, please show me the -- please show me the

 7     transcript, then, because also I -- I think I don't use expressions like

 8     "leading political figure" because I -- I -- what I do when review the

 9     documents is I try as much as possible to use the language or to refer to

10     the language used in the document, because I'm not going to give my

11     personal interpretation of that.  It wouldn't add anything.  The language

12     is pretty clear.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Theunens, for the moment your answer is based

14     on the text of that law, right.

15             THE WITNESS:  Exactly, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So, Mr. Gosnell, if there is an inconsistency in

17     the witness's answer, please direct us to the transcript.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm afraid I don't have the reference at my

19     fingertips, Mr. President, so I'll move on.

20        Q.   But I will ask, Mr. Theunens, if you look at the screen and if

21     you compare the translation on the screen as compared to the translation

22     that you have in your report, you'll see that there's a slight

23     difference.  The president of the republic in your report leads the armed

24     forces in peacetime and times of war.  In the translation in front of us

25     it says the president of the republic shall head the armed forces in

Page 4639

 1     peacetime and war.

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   Do you allow for the possibility that there are some nuances of

 4     language in respect of determining whether or not someone is a

 5     Supreme Commander that you may not fully appreciate.  Let's just put it

 6     like that.

 7        A.   Could we go to the top of the document, please.

 8             Just the top.  I just want to see the ERN.  I would like to see

 9     the ERN reference.

10             Yeah, I understand.  I mean, I used the same reference because

11     what happens sometimes in the OTP is that different documents exist

12     several times in the system and they are translated several times but as

13     an analyst I don't necessarily know that.  And here I do note that indeed

14     the language is slightly different.  For me, it doesn't make a meaning

15     any different because imagine that Mr. Gosnell was right, then again I

16     would like in the Law on Defence or I would like at the Law on Defence in

17     order to find another article that would identify then who is the

18     Supreme Commander, i.e., who is the most senior political authority to

19     lead the armed forces.

20             In the absence of another article, I think that Article 6 is

21     still valid.  And again from looking at the documents and also the -- for

22     example the letter by General Wahlgren, Force Commander of UNPROFOR, to

23     Mr. Hadzic at a later stage complaining about the shelling of civilian

24     locations, is addressed to Mr. Hadzic by Mr. Wahlgren because he

25     considers, I mean Wahlgren considers, Hadzic the supreme or the highest

Page 4640

 1     political authority in the RSK.  So whether he is leading or heading the

 2     armed forces, as far as I am concerned there is no difference.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's at least establish this.  It's true that being

 4     the leading political figure does not necessarily mean that you're the

 5     Supreme Commander of the armed forces; is that correct?

 6        A.   I have answered that we would -- sorry.

 7             We would have to look at the specific legislation of the country

 8     we're referring to.  And I don't like an expression like "leading."

 9     Maybe it's again a language issue but if you could say -- just say, well,

10     he's the president or is the prime minister, I mean, yeah, let's use

11     official names and then see how the various laws define the competencies

12     and responsibilities of these official -- of these officials.

13        Q.   Do items 2, 3, 4, or 5 of Article 6 imply any command and control

14     over the armed forces?

15        A.   There's not -- no, they don't, Your Honours, because it's

16     explained in item 1.

17        Q.   Can we go to page -- the next page of your report.  You can just

18     flip the page, sir.  And if we could please go to Article 34 in the

19     document in front of us.  And I'll just pose my question without waiting

20     for it to arrive.

21             Article 34 specifies who is to exercise command and control over

22     the Territorial Defence which, at this time, is defined as the main

23     component of the armed forces.  And we see the expression "command and

24     control" is used there very specifically.

25             Now why in your view, and you have expressed some caution as to

Page 4641

 1     whether or not you're an expert in this area, and you don't speak B/C/S,

 2     and you don't know the political background, but why, to the best of your

 3     ability to analyse this, would it say in Article 34 "command and control"

 4     and those words wouldn't be used in Article 6?

 5        A.   Your Honours, this is because in Article 34 we're talking about

 6     the military command and control over the TO based on the political

 7     guidance received from the president of the republic as it is defined in

 8     paragraph 1 of Article 6.

 9        Q.   I thank you for that answer.  But doesn't political guidance to

10     the -- isn't it possible to have a system where political guidance is

11     provided by the political authorities to a Supreme Commander and the

12     political authorities are not the Supreme Commander; isn't that correct,

13     as a matter of military doctrine?

14        A.   I would -- I mean, if we're talking about the RSK as it is in

15     March 1992, because I think that's important, in light of the adoption of

16     another Law on Defence in 1993 and including the introduction of a

17     supreme defence council, if we're talking -- sorry, about the RSK in

18     March 1992, then please show me an article in the law that defines the

19     responsibility of the president differently as I have defined it -- than

20     I have defined it.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Am I all right, Mr. President, or is there some

22     guidance from the Bench?

23             JUDGE HALL:  I'll alert you as to what is playing in the back of

24     my mind and what just passed sotto voce between myself and

25     Presiding Judge.  That I don't know how far -- how far we're go with this

Page 4642

 1     because the -- to the extent that the witness has already explained the

 2     limitations of his expertise, isn't the -- apart from the translation

 3     issues between B/C/S and English, there is certain constitutional

 4     conceptual issues which seem to be wholly outside of the expertise of the

 5     witness, and the -- the -- if I might personalise this, I think that you,

 6     like myself, know well the difference between effective political control

 7     and titular control.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Judge Hall.  I really take on board what

 9     you said and I agree.  The difficulty that we're in is that the report

10     goes into these issues, and I can now provide a transcript reference.

11     Mr. Theunens went into this at pages 4337 and 4339.  So I'm in a bit of a

12     dilemma.  I accept entirely what you're saying, and yet I somehow need to

13     refute what has been said.

14             THE WITNESS:  But ... I -- I mean, my recollection can be wrong

15     but I think when we discussed this in examination, it was in reference to

16     the letter sent by UNPROFOR General Wahlgren, and this talks about the

17     situation in 1993 and if I'm not wrong that is after the -- the --

18     adoption of a subsequent Law on Defence of the RSK which talks about the

19     SVK as the armed force of the RSK as well as it introduces the

20     Supreme Defence Council, so we're talking about a different situation.

21     And if I remember well, then I was talking about or I was trying to

22     explain why General Wahlgren sends the letter to Mr. Hadzic.  I was not

23     engaging in any legalistic discussion with Mr. Demirdjian at that stage.

24             MR. GOSNELL:

25        Q.   Well, let's move forward then and try to make progress and get

Page 4643

 1     through this.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  And I'll be guided by the Bench.  I understand that

 3     I should proceed through and not take too much time trying to get answers

 4     that I can't get.

 5             So if we could have L49, please.  It's a Prosecution document.

 6     It's part of the package.

 7        Q.   This is an amendment of the 22nd of April, 1993.  The important

 8     part is on page 3 of the English.  It's Amendment 13.

 9             And the same word that we saw used in Article 6, at least in one

10     of the translations of Article 6 of the Law on Defence, is again used in

11     amendment 13, and it says:

12             "Leaves the Serbian army of Krajina in times of peace and war in

13     accordance with the RSK constitution and decisions adopted by the Supreme

14     Defence Council and presides over the Supreme Defence Council."

15             Now looking at that, can you agree with me that he is obliged,

16     the president is obliged to follow instructions of the Supreme Defence

17     Council?

18        A.   That is correct.  And he presides over the Supreme Defence

19     Council.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have L55, please.

21        Q.   Now, I'd like to direct your attention to -- this is the decision

22     to promulgate amendment 8 to the constitution of the RSK dated the 18th

23     of May, 1992.  And if we just go around to the top of page 2, it's

24     amendment 8, sub-article 3:

25             "The president of the republic of Serbian Krajina shall appoint

Page 4644

 1     the commander of the republic of Serbian Krajina TO and shall appoint and

 2     dismiss the presidents, judges, and judge jurors of military courts and

 3     military prosecutors."

 4             First of all, that appointment presumably would also have to be

 5     directed and authorised and decided upon by the Supreme Defence Council.

 6     Would you agree?

 7        A.   No, Your Honours, because this -- I mean, this is May 1992.  The

 8     Supreme Defence Council of the RSK is only introduced in April 1993.  So

 9     this -- we are in a different situation, and I think this is explained

10     even in the amalgamated report, so I would say it's -- it can be very

11     misleading by comparing documents from totally different time-periods

12     with each other.  In April 1992, there is no Supreme Defence Council in

13     the RSK.

14        Q.   Okay.  That's my mistake and I apologise for that --

15        A.   I'm sorry.  And -- I mean, there is an error in the transcript,

16     and I'm probably speaking too fast.  When I say the Supreme Defence

17     Council of the RSK is only introduced in April, I mean April 1993, not

18     1992.  It's a big difference.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  This witness is kindly asked to slow down for

20     the benefit of the interpreters.  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

22             MR. GOSNELL:

23        Q.   That's my mistake.  But the point that I wanted to make with you

24     or ask you about in respect of this is it says:  The president has the

25     power to appoint but there is no power to remove, is there?

Page 4645

 1        A.   It would be good to compare the two texts because if you can

 2     appoint, I mean, it should also be explained then who can dismiss if your

 3     proposition is correct.  If you can -- if you would compare the B/C/S and

 4     the English, maybe there's an error in the translation.  Or we would try

 5     to find another article in the law in this -- in this amendment

 6     indicating who then can dismiss because it has to be specified.  It has

 7     to be put in law who has that authority.

 8        Q.   Can mobilisation be ordered under the Law of All People's Defence

 9     by someone other than the SFRY Presidency?

10        A.   Your Honours, I would ask for a more specific question.  Which

11     area are we talking about?  I mean, which geographic area?  What

12     time-period?

13        Q.   Well, I'm just going to -- I'm going move onto another topic and

14     I'm going to come back to that.

15             And I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the

16     situation around Vukovar when it falls.

17             Could we have 00623, please.  It's not on our list but this was

18     one of the two that I notified the Prosecution about yesterday.

19             Now this is from Vladimir Stojanovic, the commander of the Guards

20     Motorised Brigade.

21             "I hereby forbid the exchange of SFRY prisoners for the prisoners

22     of the armed formations of the Republic of Croatia without my

23     permission."

24             That's 19th of November, 1991.

25             Does that suggest to you that the JNA considers itself the

Page 4646

 1     custodian of all prisoners who have been taken into custody upon the fall

 2     of Vukovar?

 3        A.   I mean, yes, Your Honours.  Whereby when we use the word

 4     "prisoner," I prefer the language as it is used in paragraph 1 of this

 5     document.  Actually, I'm very grateful you show it because it's the

 6     document I referred to when Mr. Demirdjian was asking me questions about

 7     who would you decide about exchange of prisoners and I couldn't recall

 8     the exact document, but this is the document that I refer to; that is,

 9     that at that moment, i.e., 19th of November, the JNA still wants to

10     centralise any exchange of prisoners of war.  And they are defined -- the

11     nature of the prisoners is identified in the document, who these people

12     are.

13        Q.   Do you know that Aleksandar Vasiljevic visited Vukovar in the

14     19th of November 1991?

15        A.   I -- I do, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Do you know that that is also not recorded in the war diary of

17     the Guards Brigade?

18        A.   I think that the war diary refers to the arrival of a delegation

19     of senior officers of the security administration.

20             Now, at this moment I don't recall whether this delegation

21     includes General Vasiljevic or it is limited to the three other officers

22     of the security administration, UB.

23        Q.   Now, I just have two last documents to go through and I think

24     they're highly significant, so we're going to take a little bit of time

25     with them.

Page 4647

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please go to 1131, Prosecution tab 289.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Is counsel planning to tender the previous

 3     document?  Because it's not in the package.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes.  Thank you for that.  We would tender that.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter document 623 shall be assigned

 7     Exhibit D55.  Thank you.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:

 9        Q.   Now this document appears to be from the federal secretariat for

10     the National Defence Security Administration.  Is Aleksandar Vasiljevic

11     the head of this at this time?

12        A.   I don't know whether he is still the head at that time because

13     which -- which -- I thought it was May 1992 but maybe I missed it now,

14     the date.

15        Q.   The date is the 26th of May, 1992.

16        A.   I think he has been retired by then.  I mean, there was a wave of

17     early retirements and I think that General Vasiljevic was a part of that.

18     But again, I can stand corrected.  I haven't looked into his career for

19     the past year.  And he has also been held -- or he was arrested at one

20     movement, so he left or he was removed from the security administration

21     at one moment.  I also know that he was retired at one moment.  I think

22     he was retired already by the date of this document.

23        Q.   If we turn the page.  It's information on the crimes against

24     civilians committed by the members of the paramilitary and the volunteer

25     formations in the RSK.

Page 4648

 1             "While carrying out the tasks from within their authorities in

 2     the zone of responsibility of the JNA engaged in the territory of the

 3     RSK, the organs of the security of JNA gathered a number of operative and

 4     other information on the serious criminal acts (murder, theft, abuse,

 5     rape, et cetera) committed by the members of the volunteer formations who

 6     were, for the most part, on the strength of the TO of Eastern Slavonia,

 7     Western Srem, and Baranja at the time those acts were committed.

 8             "All information was immediately passed onto the local organs of

 9     government, the organs of internal affairs of the Republic of Serbia, and

10     the military-legal organs, and adequate measures on identifying the

11     perpetrators, taking them before the military-legal organs, and

12     documenting all activities were taken."

13             Now just as an initial matter, as you read that, can you see that

14     a distinction is being drawn:  On the one hand, information is being

15     disseminated to the local organs of government, the organs of the

16     internal affairs of the Republic of Serbia, as well as military-legal

17     organs, and it says measures are taken to take those cases before the

18     military-legal organs.  In other words, doesn't it appear from that that

19     the prosecutions are going to end up before the military-legal organs but

20     that the other agencies or the other identified groups are going to

21     assist in the investigation?

22        A.   Yeah.  I mean, it -- it's possible.

23        Q.   All right.  And then on pages 2 and 3, I'm not going to read the

24     discussion there about the events involving

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Dimitrijevic and the Valjevo TO Detachment and the

Page 4649

 1     Dusan Silni Detachment in respect of the events described there in Lovas,

 2     because that's what it's about, it's about Lovas.

 3             And below that description it says:

 4             "Handwritten,

 5             "1. JNA military prosecutor's office;

 6             "2. Republic of Serbia HQ -- republic HQ of Territorial;

 7     Defence;"

 8             And, 3:

 9             "Republic of Serbia under-secretary for State Security Service

10     MUP were informed on the above event in a memo by the security

11     administration of SSNO ..."

12             Now, first of all, would you agree with me that of those the only

13     prosecutorial organ that's notified here is the JNA military prosecutor's

14     office?

15        A.   That is correct, Your Honours.

16        Q.   And there's no notation that this information should go to any

17     prosecutorial organ in the SBWS; right?

18        A.   No.  But then again we come to issue of dates.  I haven't seen

19     any documents that by the 26th of October, 1991, there is such a

20     prosecutorial organ or structure in the SBWS bearing also in mind the

21     1st Military District order 2436-1 from 20th of November, 1991, that, as

22     I mentioned several times, for the first time mentions or identifies the

23     SAO SBWS civilian authorities as competent or relevant organs of civilian

24     authority.

25   (redacted)

Page 4650











11 Page 4650 redacted.















Page 4651

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Theunens, I say that the remaining examples in this

 3     report reflect what I've just asked you about so I'm not going to go

 4     through it.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  But I would tender this document, Mr. President.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Again, it's part of the package, Your Honours,

 7     so we'll note that there's no objection on the admission of this

 8     document.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you Mr. Demirdjian.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Just one last example, it's D17, Prosecution tab

11     291.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, I suppose you will not deal with

13     this document in two, three minutes.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Not likely, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would it be appropriate to do it after the break.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, please, Mr. President.  And I would only have

17     ten minutes.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

19             And just awareness, Mr. Demirdjian, how long would you need?

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yesterday I announced about 15 to 20 minutes,

21     now I'll say 20 to 25 based on what we heard this morning.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Theunens, we'll take the first break.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25                           [The witness stands down]


Page 4652

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In the remaining time, there is an issue about

 2     P171.

 3             Mr. Gosnell, that's the -- the one where we had a translation

 4     problem.  You submitted to the interpreters, and then you said that there

 5     was a request for review pending; right?

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  That's my information, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  But is that your request or is that OTP's

 8     request?

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is our request.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So it your request --

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It was submitted last week.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  It is your request and it is with regard

13     to the translation of -- of the word that is translated as "prime

14     minister"; right?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Because there is another -- another

17     request pending from the Prosecution for which we -- I think we still

18     wait for the answer, or did you give the answer?

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Oh.  Your Honours, that was -- yes, let me get

20     back to you after the break.  I believe that the issue sorted itself

21     because the version that I had was a non-revised version.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Right.  Yeah, yeah.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In e-court is the revised version now, so I

24     think that that's closed.  That issue is closed.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And there is another issue with that same

Page 4653

 1     document.  It was apparently temporarily put under seal until the

 2     Prosecutor advises otherwise.  You should deal with this matter as well,

 3     Mr. Demirdjian, and tell us whether it should be -- should stay under

 4     seal or whether it can go public.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It is in relation to P171 still.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's still in relation to P171.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  All right.  We will consult during the break,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The Defence will file a motion, I would say, by

12     the end of -- of the week for that revised translation?  Would that be

13     possible?

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  For this particular document.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This particular document.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, as far as I know.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  And, Mr. Demirdjian, you will tell us

18     after the break about the seal -- under seal or not.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, I will consult during the break,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

22             Court adjourned.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, while the --


Page 4654

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Who's first?

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  While the witness is being brought in, I can

 3     inform you that Exhibit P171 does not require any protective measures any

 4     longer.  We have received an answer.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

 6             Mr. Zivanovic.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  In addition for as to the same exhibit, we did

 8     not ask the correction of the translation until last break.  It had to be

 9     asked on 9 of May, but I apologise for misinformation.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would that mean that we would have to wait a

11     little bit longer to have the review?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's been asked.  It's been asked.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We asked it during the break.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Okay.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's not urgent in that way.  Thank you.

18             Yes, Mr. Theunens.

19             Mr. Gosnell, please proceed.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Could we have D17, please.  D17.  That's Prosecution tab 291.

22        Q.   Mr. Theunens, this is a document from the State Security

23     Department centre Belgrade dated the 27th of May, 1992.  And it appears

24     to be connected to the previous document we looked at, as it says

25     there -- it refers to information received from the security

Page 4655

 1     administration on the -- on the previous day.

 2             And then if -- you can just see there that item 1, again,

 3     concerns the incidents at the village of Lovas.  And if we turn the page

 4     to page 2, at the bottom of the discussion about the events in Lovas, it

 5     says:

 6             "We think that the military prosecutor would have the authority

 7     for the possible criminal procedure against these persons."

 8             And then if we go to item 4, it says -- it describes an incident

 9     in a village called Jankovci.  I don't know the location of that.  It's

10     not -- it doesn't -- it's not material to my question.  And it says:

11             "The conclusion is that the responsibility lies with: Buha Risto

12     as the TO company commander, Carevic, Jovan, a member of the TO,

13     Dragojevic, Petar, also a member of the TO.  This action of

14     intimidation ... was carried out on the order of the company

15     commander ... the possible criminal procedure would come under the

16     authority of the military prosecutor's office."

17             Now do you agree that it's very clear when we look at all these

18     examples that it's the opinion of both the SSNO, and here we see a

19     civilian organ, that crimes committed by members of the TO fall within

20     the jurisdiction of military justice for prosecution?

21        A.   Irrespective of the two documents in -- according to doctrine, it

22     would -- it is correct given the Law on Military Prosecution and the Law

23     on Military Courts of 1977.  I just want to highlight that in the

24     document here from the State Security, Serbia, conditional wording is

25     used, i.e., they say that the criminal -- possible criminal procedure

Page 4656

 1     would come.  I don't know why they write that, you know.  I haven't been

 2     able to establish.  But otherwise I agree with your proposition.

 3        Q.   In most countries, are crimes committed by a member of the armed

 4     forces in relation to armed conflict within the exclusive jurisdiction of

 5     military justice?

 6        A.   That is probably the case.  I mean, if we would have to look

 7     again as I said earlier to a similar general question to the specific

 8     legislation.  But as for SFRY, it is clear -- I mean, we discussed those

 9     laws.

10        Q.   I'm done with that document.  Thank you.  Now if we could just

11     have a look at two provisions of ...

12             If we could have a look at L10, please.  And this is Law on All

13     People's Defence.  And I just want to take you briefly to two provisions,

14     if I may.  And if we could go to page 11 of the English, which is

15     Article 23.

16             Now there it describes work obligation.  Can I just ask you,

17     Mr. Theunens, is -- there's nothing unusual or strange or out of line

18     with prescribing a work obligation for civilian citizens in a time of war

19     in terms of what you know about military doctrine in general?

20        A.   I see these articles in the 1982 All People's Defence law,

21     Your Honours, but I don't remember seeing any JNA documents covering the

22     1991/1992 conflict in Croatia mentioning work obligation, so there's not

23     much I can say except for reading the article together with you.

24        Q.   Well, we're not going to go back to our previous discussion about

25     the entities that are covered by the Law on All People's Defence, but it

Page 4657

 1     includes local communes, doesn't it?

 2        A.   It does.  But of course when it's mentioned in 1982 or any other

 3     SFRY law, it refers to recognised entities and recognised local communes.

 4     As I mentioned before, the status of some declared entities like the SAOs

 5     and their subordinate local structures is a complex matter, and again I

 6     have explained how the SFRY political and military leadership tries to

 7     handle these things.  Another complicating factor is the appearance of

 8     these politically affiliated volunteers/paramilitary groups well as

 9     groups maintaining special relations with the Ministry of Interior of the

10     Republic of Serbia.  All these kinds of additional groups and structures

11     were not foreseen in the SFRY legislation, let alone the 1982 All

12     People's Defence law.

13        Q.   Article 71, page 39 in the English.

14             This article is about mobilisation.  In the event of an attack on

15     the country or an immediate threat of war or in other emergencies,

16     socio-political communities, self-management organisations and

17     communities, et cetera, shall take and carry out, implement measures and

18     mobilise their forces and resources according to plans for defence."

19             Again -- and then just to go down:

20             "In the event of an attack on the country, communities,

21     organisation, and organs listed in paragraph 1 of this article shall

22     carry out mobilisation even without an explicit order."

23             Would you agree that these communities, whatever may be their

24     legal status, and you have discussed that in your previous answer, would

25     you agree that this mobilisation can occur even without an order from the

Page 4658

 1     SFRY Presidency?

 2        A.   Your Honours, the article is clear, but the -- the -- the legal

 3     status, i.e., whether these entities are recognised or not is the key

 4     provision because otherwise anyone -- I mean, a football club could

 5     declare mobilisation but it wouldn't make sense because a football club

 6     is not a legally organised entity in the wider concept of All People's

 7     Defence, and that is also my understanding of the SAOs, at least

 8     initially, until the various additional decisions are adopted during fall

 9     1991.

10        Q.   Did the Ministry of Defence of the SBWS have any physical

11     manifestation in the region of the SBWS?  Did it have a building?  Did it

12     have a telephone?  Did it have an office?  As far as you know.

13        A.   I would like to ask for clarification, Your Honours.  About which

14     time-period are we talking?

15        Q.   Any time in 1991.

16        A.   I understand that a decision is adopted by the Great Assembly

17     concerning the competencies of the Ministry of Defence in -- and this is

18     done in October 1991, but I haven't soon any documents concerning the

19     implementation of this decision and I don't recall other -- as what you

20     call physical manifestations of the existence of the Ministry of Defence

21     of the SBWS in fall 1991.

22        Q.   Mr. Theunens, thank you very much for your forbearance.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, that concludes my cross-examination.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

25             Mr. Demirdjian, re-direct.


Page 4659

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2             Your Honours, before I commence my re-examination, would this be

 3     an appropriate moment to tender the report and the errata sheets if

 4     there's no objection?

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  I suggest that we deal with this at the end.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's deal with it at the end.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Theunens.

10        A.   Good morning, Mr. Demirdjian.

11        Q.   I will try to be very brief.  During the first day of

12     cross-examination if you remember you were asked a number of questions

13     with respect to Arkan's subordination to the JNA.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Now there's one document that was shown to you.  This is

16     Exhibit D27.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we display it on the screen, please.

18        Q.   And if you'll remember, you'll see it in a moment, we will have

19     to go to page 4 in the English version and that is page 8 in the B/C/S

20     version.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now -- so page 4 in English and page 8 in the

22     B/C/S.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now you'll remember that this was a certificate signed by Arkan

24     and you've seen this.  There's the header of the TO training centre in

25     Erdut.

Page 4660

 1             Now, Mr. Theunens, based on this document, are you able to tell

 2     us whether this document was addressed to anyone in specific?

 3        A.   Could we scroll on the B/C/S to the bottom, please.

 4             I mean, the -- it is certificate.  There's no specific addressee

 5     included.  But I know that these kind of certificates were used for --

 6     to -- to support request for compensation, in particular if it concerned

 7     somebody who had been injured during the war.

 8        Q.   And now this is part of a bundle of about 11 pages I believe.

 9     The Defence didn't show you a cover page.  Could we put it to page 1 in

10     both versions, please.

11             Mr. Theunens, have you seen this type of form in reviewing

12     documents?

13        A.   It -- it does remind me to a personnel files of members of the

14     special purpose unit of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of

15     Serbia, I mean the layout, but I'm into the 100 per cent sure, I mean,

16     because those documents I only saw them -- I mean these kind of documents

17     when I testified in the Stanisic/Simatovic trial and I was handed over a

18     CD with documents from the Defence and I believe that similar documents,

19     i.e., personnel files of members of the special unit, the purpose unit of

20     the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia were -- were included

21     in that CD.

22        Q.   Now if we go to the next page in both versions under item number

23     3, "Information on Wounding," you see here under number 2, the date and

24     the place, 2nd of August, during combat operations in Tenja.  I think

25     this was covered during your examination-in-chief -- during your

Page 4661

 1     cross-examination.  And if we now go to the very next page, under item

 2     number 4, "Opinion and Conclusion," in the B/C/S version it's a

 3     handwritten note, and in the English here we see:

 4             "He is living with three other members of his family in a 50

 5     square metre flat.  His father is retired.  He is unemployed.  He has to

 6     attend rehabilitation for the next three months.  His financial situation

 7     is difficult.

 8             "Approved assistance of 5.000 dinars," in Belgrade, 16

 9     December 1991.

10             Now there is a name here, assistant Suzana Kerovic.  Her position

11     or organisation is not indicated.  Again, does this conclusion give you

12     any indication of which institution would have issued this document?

13        A.   No, it doesn't, Your Honour.  If it would have been the JNA I

14     would have expected some heading or some stamp from the JNA.  But, again,

15     probably there are other documents in the file that may be of assistance

16     in order to clarify this matter.

17        Q.   And have you seen any documents or similar documents which

18     provide financial assistance to wounded or injured, in this case, Arkan

19     members?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Referring again to these personnel files of

21     members of the special purpose is unit of the Ministry of Interior for

22     Republic of Serbia, and these decisions were then issued to the best of

23     my recollection by the competent authorities of the Republic of Serbia

24     and not by the JNA.

25        Q.   And are you familiar with the term Captain Dragan Fund,

Page 4662

 1     Mr. Theunens?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   What is that, in a nutshell?

 4        A.   I'm not entirely able to answer the question.  I know that

 5     Captain Dragan kept records.  I mean, similar documentation of members of

 6     volunteer units, whereby some of these people in 1991 were, for example,

 7     members of -- of Seselj's volunteers or affiliated with volunteer groups

 8     that were linked one way or the other to the SRS or that maintain contact

 9     with the SRS war staff, whereby one would see that the same individuals

10     would later identified as members of the special purpose unit of the

11     Ministry of Interior of Republic of Serbia.  I understand that this

12     Dragan fund was used, yeah, to regulate requests for compensation for

13     these individuals but I -- that's all can I say about it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And a final question on this issue.

15             What system or regulation is provided in the SFRY armed forces

16     with respect to financial assistance to soldiers?

17        A.   I -- I wouldn't be able to do so because I -- I don't recall

18     that -- having looked at such provisions, I don't believe that it was

19     included in the All People's Defence law, but on the other hand I have

20     included in my report documents concerning the attitude of Republic of

21     Serbia towards volunteers/paramilitaries, and I think that what is what

22     we are talking about here because this is -- discusses a member of a

23     non- -- a unit that was not foreseen in doctrine of All People's Defence.

24        Q.   I'm moving to another topic now at pages 4431 onwards of the

25     cross-examination, if you remember, you were shown a central intelligence

Page 4663

 1     agency map of the Eastern Slavonia.  I believe this was admitted as

 2     Exhibit D38.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we could display that on the screen.

 4        Q.   And while this is coming up, Mr. Theunens, do you remember that

 5     you answered -- at least part of your answer was that this map was

 6     created based on open-source material; is that right?

 7        A.   That -- that is correct.  And further details can be found in

 8     the -- in the introduction to, I think, part one of this report, "Balkan

 9     Battle-Grounds."

10        Q.   Now, the Defence asked you whether you would agree that this map

11     accurately represents the units that appeared to be there.  And I just

12     warranted to bring your attention to the following.  It appears at least

13     in the top right-hand corner here that the letter X refers to a brigade.

14     If we can just zoom on that top right-hand corner there.

15             Yes, do you see the letter X?

16        A.   Yeah.  These are the -- the standard symbols like NATO country

17     use -- I'm sorry I touched the screen, but that NATO countries use to

18     depict units on a map.

19        Q.   Very well.  We can zoom out now.

20             And I would like you to --

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we zoom to the central part of this map,

22     please.

23        Q.   Do you see in the area of Vinkovci on the right-hand side of the

24     line, you have a 3 Guards Brigade and a 2 Guards Brigade.  Have you

25     encountered or have you seen any documents suggesting that such units

Page 4664

 1     were deployed in that area?  Or employed.

 2        A.   Yeah.  I mean, the potential confusion comes from the fact that

 3     there was only one Guards Motorised Brigade in the SFRY armed forces;

 4     however, the Proletarian Guards Mechanised Division would also have

 5     guards brigades but those were guards mechanised brigades, so there is a

 6     difference between the nature of the unit.  So there is not necessarily

 7     an error in the map but the use of the words "guards" needs to be

 8     clarified.

 9        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

10             Now after the map was shown to you, you were asked by my learned

11     friend whether the map reflects, if you'll remember, that OG North and OG

12     South were separated, and you answered that it's possible.  You can draw

13     your conclusions based on this map, and you can answer it again based on

14     the map you see in front of you.

15             Now, putting aside all these arrows and units that we see on the

16     screen, you did explain during your examination-in-chief - and this was

17     at page 4200 - that the JNA controlled the bridges over the Danube at the

18     three entry points.

19             Do you remember that part of your examination?

20        A.   I did, Your Honours.  I mean, they start to control them at one

21     moment in time in summer 1991.  Or even earlier, I think, late spring

22     1991.

23        Q.   Do you -- in view of your answer just now and on the document

24     that you have collected, could you tell the Court what was the level of

25     communication between OG South and OG North?

Page 4665

 1        A.   Just to -- do you mean the level of exchange of information.

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Or --

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   I mean, we would have to look at the specific documents

 6     because -- I mean, from a doctrinal point of view they should have been

 7     in contact with each other because they're neighbouring units.  And again

 8     given the situation in the area where there are reports of infiltration

 9     by members of ZNG and other Croatian forces, it's really imperative that

10     they -- not only that they talk to each other as neighbouring units but

11     there would also be a physical contention, i.e., maybe that they can see

12     each other or that the weapons of the neighbouring units, i.e., north --

13     OG North, south, OG South, that they can cover the same area to avoid

14     gaps, but I think we would -- I mean, we would have to look at the

15     specific documents.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, on that note, could we display 65 ter 6010

17     which is at tab 547.

18             THE WITNESS:  While we're doing it, can we see because I don't

19     remember seeing a date on the map or whether it covers a time-period or

20     not, so -- because that's also important to keep in mind in order to

21     assess the usefulness of this map.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Perhaps if we're able to display the last

23     document.  I don't believe there is a date but let's take a quick look.

24     Perhaps I missed something.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  It'll appear on the legend.

Page 4666

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  On the legend.  Thank you.

 2             Well, if we can zoom on the top right-hand corner.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Sorry to interrupt, but --

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 5        Q.   Yes, I believe you have dates with respect to the boundaries at a

 6     certain point in time, and --

 7        A.   Yeah, it's -- sorry, I can read.  It shows like this -- sorry.  I

 8     think it's December 1991 so ... I can read this position:  Shown as of

 9     December 1991 which I would say is of limited use if you want to

10     understand what's happening around Vukovar because by then the

11     Guards Motorised Brigade has been withdrawn and OG South has been

12     disbanded.

13        Q.   Very well.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  So let's look very briefly at 65 ter 6010,

15     please.  Yes, I believe we have the English version on the screen.  Thank

16     you for that.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Theunens, do you see here that this is a document of the

18     command of the 12th Corps on the 6th of October 1991 in the village of

19     Dalj.  And I'd like to take your attention to item number 2A:

20             "The command of OG South launched attacks according to a previous

21     decision."

22             And there's a detailed explanation with the involvement of the

23     assault detachments here.

24             Now, this is just one document and there will be more, but can

25     you tell us based on this document on the 6th of October how you would

Page 4667

 1     assess the quality of the communities between those two units?

 2        A.   Well, from doctrinal point of view, a unit has to be aware of the

 3     activities of a neighbouring unit.  I think it's -- the reasons are

 4     obvious also given my previous -- my answer to a previous question.

 5             Now, again, in the course of military doctrine, this information

 6     would be provided by the command of the 1st Military District.  There

 7     would be regular meetings between -- I mean, held at the command of the

 8     military district where commanders or representatives of the commanders

 9     of the various subordinate units would be present to receive instructions

10     from the command of the 1st Military District for operations as well as

11     to discuss the situation and there, of course, they would conduct a

12     liaison and during operations they should also be in contact with each

13     other for the reasons I explained.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Theunens.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this is a new document.  May I

16     apply to tender it, 65 ter 6010.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1720.  Thank you.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

20        Q.     I'll move to a different topic, Mr. Theunens.  At page 4443

21     during cross-examination you were shown Exhibit P103, which I would like

22     us to display on the screen now, and this document dealt with, if you'll

23     remember, a report that Arkan had destroyed a Catholic church in the

24     village of Erdut.

25             Thank you.

Page 4668

 1             Now at the bottom of the page we see the sentence there -- this

 2     is the document of the 1st of October 1991 from the security organs of a

 3     military unit -- yes.

 4             And at the bottom of the sentence here, do you see the sentence,

 5     the last three lines, and it read -- and I'm going to read it slowly for

 6     you:

 7             "Arkan had completely destroyed a Catholic church in the village

 8     of Erdut and the church tower was destroyed before that, during the JNA's

 9     takeover of Erdut."

10             Now, during your cross-examination, the Defence asked you whether

11     you were disputing that the last sentence on page 1 referred to the

12     takeover of Erdut on the 1st of August by the JNA.

13             Looking at the document - and I'd like to bring your attention to

14     the word "and" in the middle of that sentence - what is your view with

15     respect to the incidents that are being referred to here?

16        A.   I'm trying to understand the purpose of the comma between "that"

17     and "during," because I think that would -- I mean, I haven't -- I don't

18     have any other or any specific recollection as to when the church was

19     destroyed.  I have a recollection that the tower was destroyed during the

20     takeover because there were allegedly ZNG members hiding in it, and --

21     to -- to which were considered threat by the JNA.  But I have no specific

22     recollection as to when Arkan destroyed the church.  So that's all can I

23     say it is -- I mean, you could say that it was after the takeover, but

24     the comma is in my view is misleading.

25             So I can't answer the question.

Page 4669

 1        Q.   All right.  I'll move onto the next topic, Mr. Theunens.

 2             If you'll remember during your cross-examination this was at

 3     pages 4463 onwards, you were asked within the context of the events in

 4     SBWS when do combat operations end in OG North.  Do you remember that

 5     question?

 6        A.   I do, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   And you answered that your interpretation of the documents led

 8     you to conclude that the JNA had taken control of Dalj on August 1st.

 9             I want you to take a look at Exhibit P1690, which is at tab 544

10     of the Prosecution list.

11             Again, this is a document of the Command of the 12th Corps on the

12     28th of September, 1991.  Under the first header you see that

13     Colonel Belic is appointed commander of the operations group.  And I'd

14     like to take your attention to item number 2:

15             "The OG commander is tasked with consolidating forces north of

16     Vukovar, blocking exit from Vukovar from the north and preparing to lift

17     the siege of Vukovar."

18             Could you tell us, based on this document and other documents

19     that you have seen, what is the mission of OG North at that stage, at the

20     end of September 1991?

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection.  That's vague, very vague, given the

22     composition of OG North.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, Your Honours, I'm trying to be as

24     non-leading as possible in this stage.  I'm focussing on the information

25     we have in this document with respect to what OG North is being assigned

Page 4670

 1     with.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, if the question refers to the

 3     OG North that is discussed in this order, well, I think the paragraph is

 4     clear.  It's to prevent Croatian forces from exiting Vukovar via the

 5     north.  Also -- I mean, consolidating forces means that you extend your

 6     control, your -- I mean, your -- finalise your deployment and then you're

 7     ready to operate while deployed in the area north of Vukovar which is

 8     the -- I mean, the area is not specified but it's north of Vukovar.  And

 9     I spoke about blocking the exit, I mean preventing forces -- Croatian

10     forces from exiting or from leaving Vukovar via the north.  And then also

11     assisting the other JNA forces in lifting the siege -- what is called the

12     siege of Vukovar, i.e., by the parts in Vukovar that are under Croatian

13     control.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   And if you look at the bottom of this document at item 7, it

16     talks about the command of the 12th Corps being responsible to provide

17     logistical support.

18             And then item number 8 which says:

19             "Relocate the command post to the sector of the village of

20     Borovo Selo."

21             Now what does that tell you with respect, again, to my earlier

22     question of the mission or perhaps the focus of OG North at the time?

23        A.   Well, overall, I mean, the geographic focus is north of Vukovar.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And might I show you one more document on this issue,

25     which is at 65 ter 6016, at tab 552.

Page 4671

 1             Mr. Theunens, this is one of the new documents, and this is with

 2     respect to the formation of a tactical group.  We discussed this during

 3     your examination-in-chief.  It is issued by the Command of the 12th Corps

 4     on the 9th of October, 1991.  Could you look at the first sentence:

 5             "Order.

 6             "To unify operations of all forces engaged in the attack on

 7     Borovo Naselje in Borovo and to ensure further completion of planned

 8     tasks ...," and then we see the order itself.

 9             You know, with respect to the last document we saw.  In light of

10     the content of that last document, what is your view of the -- again, the

11     focus of OG North or TG North at the time?

12        A.   Well, for this order, it -- I mean, it's specified in the first

13     sentence.  It's Borovo Naselje, which is actually between Borovo Selo and

14     Vukovar, and I would say that this corresponds with the area -- I mean,

15     generally speaking the area in order -- north-west of Vukovar.

16        Q.   Very well.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this is a new document.  May I

18     apply to tender it.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1721.  Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

22        Q.   I'll move onto my next topic, Mr. Theunens.

23             You were asked -- you were shown exhibit -- sorry.  65 ter 460

24     you were shown yesterday, I believe.  And it was with respect to an order

25     from Zivota Panic to send a number of units including the Vojvodina TO.

Page 4672

 1     And at the time the Defence pointed to you that there was no mention of

 2     the SBWS TO in this order.

 3             Yes, we can see it on the screen right now.

 4             And you explained in response that at the time the local Serb TO

 5     in SBWS was not recognised and that's how you explained the absence of a

 6     mention of the SBWS TO here.

 7             Now, are you able to assist the Trial Chamber, based on the

 8     amount of documents you have seen with respect to the operations in

 9     Vukovar, for what purpose were the local Serb TO used during the combat

10     operations?

11        A.   Your Honours, there is an order from OG South, if I remember well

12     it's the number 235-1 from the 14th of October, where it is stated that

13     TO Petrova Gora and Leva Supoderica are to be used as guides which makes

14     sense because the local -- members of the local Serb TO, i.e., those

15     originating from the area, know the area better than the members of the

16     Guards Motorised Brigade and this is particularly important in the

17     context of urban warfare as it was by that time in the outskirts of

18     Vukovar.

19             From other documents, just summarising them, we also see that the

20     TO is used to control the terrain, i.e., the rear area, because the JNA

21     units of -- are used on the front line.  I mean, those are the main

22     missions I remember at this stage.

23        Q.   You anticipated my next question, Mr. Theunens.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And, on that note, if we could display on the

25     screen 65 ter 353, which is at tab 92 of the Prosecution's list.

Page 4673

 1        Q.   Now, you see on the screen that this is a document issued by the

 2     Guards Motorised Brigade Command on the 1st of October, 1991, command

 3     post in Negoslavci.  Do you see that on the screen?

 4        A.   I do, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Theunens, just to place us back in the context, when did the

 6     Guards Motorised Brigade arrive in the area of Negoslavci?

 7        A.   Your Honours, end of September 1991, early October.  Because -- I

 8     mean, the resubordination order which is discussed on page 442 dates from

 9     the 29th of September.  By this resubordination order the

10     Guards Motorised Brigade is resubordinated from the SSNO to the

11     1st Military District.

12        Q.   So this would be have been -- am I correct to say that this is

13     about a day or two days later after the arrival of the Guards Motorised

14     Brigade?

15        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  And it's, in my recollection, one of the

16     first orders by the Commander of the Guards Motorised Brigade for

17     operations of his unit in the wider Vukovar area and at that time

18     Colonel Mrksic is not yet the commander for OG South.

19        Q.   Can I take you to page 2 in the English version.  We can remain

20     on the same page in the B/C/S version.

21             Yes.

22             Now, you see here -- I apologise.  There's a mention here to the

23     Leva and Desna Supoderica and --

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we scroll down a little bit more, please.

25             I apologise.  I may have had the wrong version of the document.

Page 4674

 1     Can we go to the next page.  Can we scroll down a little bit more.

 2             Just give me a moment, please.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  And maybe I can use this to -- sorry, to

 4     correct my -- the order, I was referring to 235-1, is not from the 14th

 5     of October, but it's the 29th of October and this is discussed on page

 6     457 of my report.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just a moment, please.

 8             It appears that my handwriting was playing tricks on me too, as

 9     my learned friend earlier today.

10             It is page three.  At the bottom of that page, please.  Look, we

11     are there.  Thank you.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Do you see the paragraph here?  It says:

13             "Bring up infantry sections at the achieved line during the night

14     before first light on 2 October with guides from Petrova Gora ... TO

15     detachment."

16             Now, is this what you were referring to earlier with respect to

17     the use of local Serb TO?

18        A.   Indeed.  And I -- excuse me.

19             Indeed, Your Honours.  And I have explained why the

20     Guards Motorised Brigade was doing that.

21        Q.   Now, the paragraph before that, paragraph 2, suggests -- well, it

22     says:

23             "The Gmtbr will conduct a blockade and assault on Vukovar."

24             And in the seconds line it says:

25             "In co-operation with Vukovar TO units (Petrova Gora) ..."

Page 4675

 1             Now, I'd like you to explain to the Trial Chamber, if you're able

 2     to form a view, as to how the Guards Motorised Brigade arriving on the

 3     29th or 30th of September would have established a contact with the local

 4     Serb TO in Vukovar.

 5        A.   Well, Your Honours, I haven't seen specific documents on that,

 6     but, again, from a doctrinal point of view, there would have been

 7     meetings between the members of the -- I mean, the relevant members of

 8     the Guards Motorised Brigade, i.e., members of the command, battalion

 9     commander, company commanders, and commanding officers of local Serb TO

10     unit -- units, I'm sorry, in the respective areas or zones of

11     responsibilities of the companies, the battalions of the Guards Motorised

12     Brigade.  So there would be meetings at the level of the command as well

13     as at the the lowest unit level so that everybody knows everybody and

14     that they can also co-ordinate their operations in view of conducting

15     operations, I mean, and implementing the three principles of command and

16     control.

17        Q.   Very well.  I'll move onto my penultimate topic.  I believe it is

18     yesterday, at page 4589, that you were shown Exhibit D48.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we could have that up on the screen, please.

20     Yes.

21        Q.   You'll remember that the Defence were asking as to why these

22     appointments here are being made by -- at the SSNO level.  If you

23     remember that was the question yesterday.  And we see a number of

24     colonels, lieutenant-colonels, six of them in fact, that are being

25     assigned to the towns of Mirkovci and Tenja.

Page 4676

 1             And you answered that if they came outside the 1st Military

 2     District, then that could have been an explanation as to why it's the

 3     SSNO that issues that order because the 1st Military District cannot

 4     order officers, et cetera.

 5             Now, I'd like you to look at one of the new documents.  It's at

 6     65 ter 6074.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this document was not on our list.

 8     I believe that it might assist in answering the witness, his request

 9     basically to see a document about the appointment of the officers.

10             So 65 ter 6074.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I haven't even had sight of the document.  I

12     mean ...

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours, and I agree.  It's not on our

14     list but it arose from the witness's answer yesterday, and I believe it

15     would help the witness in forming his view why this document was issued

16     by the SSNO.  This is not a topic that we appreciated would be raised in

17     cross-examination.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I -- I don't like to be technical,

19     Mr. President, but if this was known yesterday we should have received an

20     e-mail last night or this morning, and having not even had ten minutes to

21     look at the document, much less consult, I object to its use.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I'm in your hands Your Honour.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I would think that Mr. Gosnell has a point there,

24     Mr. Demirdjian.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I -- I agree, Your Honours.  But, again, if

Page 4677

 1     further cross-examination is necessary after the break I would have no

 2     objection to that.  Again, I'm in your hands.  If it assists you to help

 3     complete --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would that solve the problem eventually,

 5     Mr. Gosnell?

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's your call.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm extremely loathe to suggest that any further

 9     questions on my part would be something anyone in this room would

10     appreciate, so I would suggest it's not an available or appropriate

11     remedy and we should just not use this document and move on.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, I would not object to additional

13     questions.  But if we're down to that, I can move, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please ask your question without showing the

15     document, if that's appropriate or relevant.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yeah.  It would be very difficult for

17     Mr. Theunens to answer the question without seeing the document and the

18     appointments made.  It's not a major issue, Your Honours.  I will move

19     on.  That's fine.

20        Q.   This morning, Mr. Theunens - and this is my last topic, it is -

21     at page 18, line 13, you were asked by my learned friend, or you were

22     told that none of the documents that you have reviewed at all show that

23     the district was involved in ethnic cleansing or putting pressure on

24     Croats to leave.  Do you remember that question?

25        A.   I do, Your Honours.

Page 4678

 1        Q.   I would like you to look at Exhibit D51 which the Defence showed

 2     you during their cross-examination.

 3             We see here the cover page from the Command of the 1st Mechanized

 4     Corps.  And this document is sent to the 1st Military District.  I would

 5     like you to go to page 4 in the English version, which is page 3 in the

 6     B/C/S version.  And if we could zoom on item number 10 which was shown to

 7     you by my learned friend.

 8             Sir, in the middle of this paragraph, do you see the sentence

 9     that starts with the word "because"?

10        A.   In -- in paragraph 10 or is --

11        Q.   Yes, item 10, line 6:

12             "Because of distrust and what is happening to Serbs who remain in

13     Western Slavonia ..."

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, indeed, I see it.

16        Q.   Very well.  And the sentence continues:

17             "And with the tacit consent of the government of the SAO Slavonia

18     and the assistance of the prominent members of the government, the

19     so-called co-ordinators and ministers, they are placing a certain

20     pressure on the local inhabitants to make them move out voluntarily."

21             Now, sir, with respect to the question that was asked this

22     morning in the documents you have reviewed, what is your view with

23     respect to the involvement of the Serbian district?

24        A.   Your Honours, I have answered that question but I can repeat it

25     and I will try to be as brief as possible.

Page 4679

 1             That is that based on my review of JNA documents, a pattern

 2     develops whereby pressure is exercised on members of the population.

 3     This consists mainly of minority members of the population, even of

 4     ethnic groups that were not directly involved in the conflict.  I

 5     remember seeing a document concerning -- sorry, a JNA document with a

 6     need to protect Ruthenians and Ukrainians, but they were not a faction or

 7     a party in the conflict between Croatian forces and JNA forces and

 8     related forces under the latter's command, and this pattern consists of,

 9     yeah, pressure, whereby this is condoned or even supported or there's

10     even active involvement of people affiliated with the SAO SBWS government

11     or even members of that government.  And this pattern continues also

12     after the official withdrawal of JNA in spring 1992 and the latter

13     conclusion is based on the reports by the UN Secretary-General on the

14     implementation or the resolutions regulating the activities of the UN

15     peacekeeping forces, UNPROFOR, in -- in the UNPAS in view of the

16     implementation of the Vance Plan.

17        Q.   Now, we've seen one document which was tendered by the Defence.

18     Allow me to show you one last document, I promise.  It is 65 ter 6145 at

19     tab 634.

20             This is a document of the 19th of March of the 1st Mechanized

21     Corps, and I would like you to go to the next page.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And, Your Honours, in all fairness to the

23     Defence, this is a document they did object to during my

24     examination-in-chief with respect to the involvement of the Serbian

25     district.  However, my learned friend has dealt with that issue now in


Page 4680

 1     his cross-examination, and I would like to use this document at this

 2     stage.

 3        Q.   Now, do you see here at the top of the page under item number 6,

 4     Novica Gusic, who we have seen writing numerous reports from the

 5     1st Mechanized Corps writes again:

 6             "The moving out of the local population is being organised by the

 7     local civilian authorities with supervision and security provided by the

 8     IS/expansion unknown/of the government of the SO Baranja, Eastern

 9     Slavonia, and Western Srem.  The person in charge is Ziko Vevcevic."

10             And again, Mr. Theunens, how does that compare with the document

11     we just saw, the previous document?

12        A.   Yeah, Your Honours, this document is consist with the previous

13     document and the others, other documents I reviewed which led me to draw

14     the conclusion concerning the pattern I have identified.

15        Q.   Thank you for answering my questions, Mr. Theunens.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we tender this document.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1722.  Thank you.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  This concludes my re-examination, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Expert Witness Theunens, I

24     have one last question for you.  It concerns the Supreme Command of the

25     armed forces and its decisions in the territory concerned.

Page 4681

 1             You remember at the beginning of your testimony, I asked you a

 2     question about the Supreme Command of the armed forces of the

 3     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or, as we call it - I'm looking

 4     for the acronym in English - SFRY.  And you explained very well that the

 5     Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY consisted of the

 6     Presidency which, in turn, was comprised of the presidents -- no, the

 7     president of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and delegates from

 8     the six republics and the two autonomous provinces.

 9             Now, regarding the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia with

10     its constitution of 1972, the Supreme Command over the army is in the

11     hands of the president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the

12     presidents of republics.  So there is a difference.  What attracted my

13     attention is the collective nature of this Supreme Command.  The

14     president always acts with the consent of the delegates from republics.

15             Can you tell me, based on your research and studies and your

16     expertise, whether you have found in any of the documents, such as

17     transcripts from their sessions, the sessions of the Supreme Command of

18     the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or perhaps those of the

19     republics, whether you found any documents bearing on JNA actions or

20     operations, or perhaps the new army of the new Federal Republic of

21     Yugoslavia called the VJ, any operations concerning the district of

22     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, or the Serbian Republic of Krajina

23     in the period between 1991 and 1993?

24             In other words, were you able to see in your research that the

25     authorities of the geographic area concerned by the indictment

Page 4682

 1     participated in the decision-making concerning the involvement of the JNA

 2     in these activities and the activities of the paramilitaries?

 3        A.   Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             I think your question, if I understood it well, covers several

 5     aspects.  Starting with the last aspect, i.e., the presence of members

 6     of -- of local Serb authorities be it in Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina, I

 7     do remember seeing some documents concerning sessions of I would call it

 8     what remains of the SFRY Presidency from spring 1992.  I call it what

 9     remains of the SFRY Presidency because by that time obviously the

10     representatives of Slavonia and Croatia are not part anymore of the

11     SFRY Presidency, and in these documents, I mean, they mention the

12     presence of Mr. Martic and/or Mr. Karadzic, and I believe - but I would

13     need to see the document - I also believe Mr. Hadzic.

14             These documents or these sessions of what remains of the

15     SFRY Presidency concern the preparation of the territory covered by the

16     SAOs and subsequently the RSK in Croatia for the deployment of the UN

17     peacekeeping forces which includes, I mean, the various aspects

18     concerning again preparing the JNA for its withdrawal, the creation of --

19     or the formalisation, the formal creation of a RSK TO and related issues.

20             At the same time, I think the other aspect of your question

21     concerns orders concerned -- by the SFRY Presidency and later the FRY

22     Presidency on the activities of the JNA and subsequently the VJ in the

23     SAOs and subsequently the RSK.  I have also seen such documents whereby I

24     think the focus there was mainly -- I mean, the various minutes, the

25     focus is mainly on the provision of support to the local Serb defence

Page 4683

 1     structures and also, for example, General Panic highlights the dependency

 2     of the local Serb defence structures on the assistance from FRY by that

 3     time.  I mean, after April 1992.  We also saw that during at least one

 4     session the participation of volunteers/paramilitaries in the conflict in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina in April May 1992 is being discussed, and this is

 6     interested in the context of your question because these are similar

 7     groups as those or even the same groups as those that were active in the

 8     area covered by the SAO SBWS in fall 1991.

 9             So I'm not sure whether I covered each of the aspects you raised

10     in your question, but these are at least the documents concerning the

11     activities of the SFRY and subsequently FRY Presidency I recall.

12             And maybe just to complete, I don't recall seeing, for example,

13     that members of the SAO leadership or local Serb authorities in Croatia

14     or Bosnia-Herzegovina -- I mean, I -- I -- that -- I mean, they cannot

15     impose decisions on what the JNA or they cannot impose their views as

16     what the JNA should be doing or not be doing or what later the VJ should

17     be doing or not be doing, because as you say the decisions are taken in a

18     collegial manner.  But for spring 1992, there I do recall documents where

19     members of local Serb authorities are present and also expressed certain

20     views.  But I -- it is -- I don't recall the extent to which their views

21     were dominating or -- or prevailing in the decision-making process.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, expert

23     Witness.  You have, indeed, answered my entire question.  Thank you for

24     taking the trouble to answer additional questions.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Theunens, I have two questions -- two

Page 4684

 1     questions of you.

 2             Could we have document with 65 ter number 500 on the screen,

 3     please.

 4             This document with this -- which is signed by Momir Talic is

 5     about engagement of and co-ordination with TO units in the zone of

 6     responsibility of the 5th Corps.

 7             What I would like to know is:  What is or what was in late 1991

 8     the zone of responsibility of the 5th Corps; do you know?  And with zone

 9     of responsibility, I'm referring to the geographical zone.

10        A.   Your Honours, by that time the 5th Corps is the main JNA unit

11     conducting operations in Western Slavonia, and they have been redeployed

12     due to the events -- I mean, the headquarters which prior to the events

13     in Croatia was in -- in -- in Zagreb has been redeployed by that time to

14     Banja Luka in Bosnia-Hercegovina, so they are basically covering the

15     area -- covered western Bosnia-Herzegovina and fighting in -- in Western

16     Slavonia.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

18             And the second question is about uniforms, Mr. Theunens.  I don't

19     know if you know about the uniforms of the different parts of the Serbian

20     forces engaged in the region.

21             Are there elements by which uniforms of JNA regular conscripts on

22     one hand and reservists on the other?  Military police, TO, and

23     paramilitary can be distinguished by, let's say, observant ordinary

24     people?  I don't have whether you have that information in your

25     documents, but ...

Page 4685

 1        A.   Your Honours, I -- I don't have any pictures, I think, included

 2     in my reports on the uniforms, but I think I can provide some assistance

 3     I hope.

 4             The JNA traditional uniform was an olive-drab uniform.  One

 5     single colour.  And the most distinct mark was the red cross -- oh, no,

 6     sorry, the red star, not the cross, the star on the helmet or on the

 7     little cap they were wearing.  Military police would be distinguishable

 8     because they wear white belts.  To my recollection, TOs - I mean the

 9     official TOs - would wear similar uniforms.  Also, if you notice that the

10     Guards Motorised Brigade - and I'm not sure whether this was already at

11     the outset of their presence in Vukovar or during their operations in

12     Vukovar, but they received or they started to wear camouflage uniforms

13     which were quite unique at that time for the JNA forces operating in

14     Croatia.

15             And then, of course, the big problem were the volunteers and

16     paramilitaries whereby they were often wearing a mixture of JNA and other

17     uniforms, whatever they could find.  They would wear party insignia be it

18     on caps.  I mean, like Seselj's volunteers, for example, some of them

19     would wear fur caps with the Chetnik symbol on it or they would wear

20     these symbols on other parts of the uniform.  At the same time you have

21     the Arkan -- or members of Arkan's group which were seen in camouflage

22     uniform but they are all the same uniform.  I mean, very disciplined

23     impression compared to at least what we saw in the local Serb TO.  And

24     they would also have a -- often an insignia on their shoulders indicating

25     their allegiance.  They wouldn't have any Yugoslav symbols.

Page 4686

 1             Some reference is made to -- in documents to Arkan's volunteers

 2     wearing black uniforms or black overalls.  I remember seeing that myself

 3     when I visited Erdut in 1990 -- in August 1993.  And for the later

 4     period, I mean, after April 1992, the SVK -- excuse me, the RSK TOs

 5     officially demobilised but you still see people in mixture of uniforms in

 6     the area covered by the RSK.

 7             At the same time then there is also the PJM, so the special

 8     police, and they wear blue tiger stripe uniforms which was a very

 9     distinct feature.  And then when the SVK is established in -- after

10     November 1992 - I mean formally established, the law dates from May 1992

11     but the actual implementation is after November 1992 - they wear

12     camouflage uniforms with again an SVK insignia on the shoulder.

13             But the big problem is for the volunteers and paramilitaries

14     except Arkan and Dragan, of course, but the others they wear a mixture of

15     uniforms and insignia, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Theunens.

17             Anything triggered by the Judges' questions?

18             Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] With regard to the transcript,

21     there's something I would like to point out.  There's some mistakes that

22     have been made with regard to what I said.  When I said the Socialist

23     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, for example, and I can see that in the

24     transcript it says the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  When I spoke

25     about federal republic I see it says the Socialist Federal Republic of


Page 4687

 1     Yugoslavia.  So I'm saying this for the sake of the transcript.

 2             And then with regard to the constitution of the Federal Republic

 3     of Yugoslavia, I see that there's a mistake in relation to the date

 4     mentioned.

 5             Thank you.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Theunens, this brings us to the end of your

 7     testimony.  Thank you very much for assisting the Tribunal.  You are now

 8     released as a witness and we wish you a safe journey home or wherever you

 9     go to right now.

10             Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you very much.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As for the expert report and the documents,

15     unless there is no objection for the -- from the Defence, the Trial

16     Chamber would like to have written submissions.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Certainly no objection from us, Mr. President.  No

18     objection to that procedure at all.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So which means that you will object to the

20     admission and -- of documents and report?  Is that -- is that correct

21     understanding?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  I -- I can say there will be an objection to some

23     of the documents, that's for sure.  I think there is still further

24     consultation required before I can take a position on the report itself.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Then we will wait for your written

Page 4688

 1     submissions.

 2             Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can I just get a clarification as to whether

 4     there will be submissions both on the report and the documents?  Is there

 5     an objection to -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, I heard a yes for the documents, there will

 7     be.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And a maybe for the report.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  And for --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's right, isn't it, Mr. Gosnell?

12             MR. GOSNELL:  That's quite correct.  Thank you very much,

13     Mr. President.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.

16             And with respect to the documents, Your Honours, I don't know how

17     we could do this but it would be very helpful if we had an indication of

18     what is being objected to at this stage in order for us to provide you

19     with you a reasoned submission --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's one of the reasons why we are asking for

21     written submissions, Mr. Demirdjian.  So --

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- I suppose that will happen that way.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.

25             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise for intervening, Mr. President.

Page 4689

 1             Last week, and maybe we're talking about a separate batch of

 2     documents, I believe that we received guidance from the Trial Chamber

 3     that the parties were going to confer and that the Defence was going to

 4     identify documents to which it objected.  And then once that -- the

 5     parties had conferred and documents had been identified to which there is

 6     objection, then that product would come to the Chamber, and I had the

 7     impression that it was -- that proposal had been warmly received by the

 8     Chamber.  I don't know whether we're being told something different now.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Certainly not, Mr. Stringer.

10             The Trial Chamber is always in favour of discussion between

11     parties before taking official positions.

12             Thank you.

13             We'll take the break and come back, let's say, 1.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We have a new witness, I take.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  The new witness is being

18     brought in.  And just for the record to note now Ms. Lisa Biersay in with

19     the Prosecution together with legal intern, Ivana Martinovic.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good afternoon.  Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You can hear me in a language you understand?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


Page 4690

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you tell us your name, your date of birth,

 2     and your ethnicity, please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goran Stoparic.  The 17th of

 4     January, 1968.  I am of Serbian ethnicity.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             You are about to make the solemn declaration, by which witnesses

 7     commit themselves to tell the truth, and I have to point out to you that

 8     by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury should you

 9     give false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.

10             Can I please ask you to write -- to read the solemn declaration

11     now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  GORAN STOPARIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stoparic, also for coming to

17     The Hague to assist the Tribunal.  You may be seated.

18             Ms. Biersay, your witness.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

21        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Stoparic.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   And I see you adjusting.  Are you comfortably seated, or is there

24     something we can do with the chairs to assist?

25        A.   Everything's fine.

Page 4691

 1        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Stoparic, giving a statement to investigators

 2     from this Tribunal in November of 2003?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did you sign that statement on 24 November 2003?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is it fair to say that you have provided additional statements to

 7     the Office of the Prosecutor?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you've also previously testified before this Tribunal;

10     correct?

11        A.   On a number of occasions.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, I apologise in advance to you and the

13     interpreters who have to listen to my cough.  I'm very sorry about that.

14             Turning now to the 2003 statement, in that statement you describe

15     your deployment as a volunteer in the former Yugoslavia; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Turning now to tab 1, please.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  May we have 65 ter number 5977 displayed for

19     Mr. Stoparic.

20        Q.   And, first, when it comes I'll ask to you look at the right side

21     of your screen.

22             So now directing your attention to the right side of your screen

23     which is a -- an English document, do you recognise this document?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What do you recognise it to be?

Page 4692

 1        A.   That's my statement from 2003, I believe, yes.

 2        Q.   And directing your attention to the bottom of that page, do you

 3     recognise a signature at the bottom?

 4        A.   Yes.  I can recognise my own signature.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Now if we could turn to page 23 of the English

 6     version.  If we could go one more -- right.  On the right, I now have the

 7     B/C/S version.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:

10        Q.   We're trying to get you the right page the -- of the English.

11             Okay.  Now on the right of your screen, do you see a signature

12     that you recognise on page 23 of the English version?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   And whose signature do you recognise that to be?

15        A.   It's mine.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  In a minute, I will ask for tab 11, which is 65 ter

17     number 6329.1.

18        Q.   And that's just a reference to the -- to the Court, Mr. Stoparic.

19     And now directing my attention to you, Mr. Stoparic, I'd like you to

20     summarise your relevant whereabouts from summer of 1991 to the end of

21     1993, to orient the Trial Chamber specifically on a map.

22             And I'll ask you to mark that map.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we can give some assistance to Mr. Stoparic

24     in that regard.

25             And now turning to tab 11, 65 ter number 6329.1.  And, for the

Page 4693

 1     record, it is a map of the southeast part of Croatia with a bit of

 2     north-west Serbia depicted.

 3        Q.   So, Mr. Stoparic, I thought what we could do here is for you to

 4     mark and number each place that you've been to and I'll ask you the

 5     specific questions in that regard.

 6             Now, you describe in your November 2003 statement that in summer

 7     1991 you were in Sid, Serbia; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  That's where I live.

 9        Q.   And could you please draw a circle.

10        A.   It's Sid.

11        Q.   We're conferring because we are hearing another interpretation in

12     our headphones.  Just one minute.  Let's try it again.

13             Could you now draw a circle around Sid and put a number 1 next to

14     it, please.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And could you write number 1 next to -- just outside of that

17     circle, if you can.  I know it's tricky with that pen.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   From Sid you went to Tovarnik, Croatia, according to your

20     statement; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would kindly ask my colleague to avoid leading

23     questions.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, this is covered in his statement.  I'm

25     merely trying to be efficient.

Page 4694

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.  Ms. Biersay.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   And now, Mr. Stoparic, if you could draw a circle around

 4     Tovarnik.  If can you see it.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And -- exactly.  You've numbered it number 2.

 7             Could you describe to the Trial Chamber in what capacity you went

 8     to Tovarnik?

 9        A.   Well, I was a volunteer in the Territorial Defence of Slavonia,

10     Baranja, and Western Srem.

11        Q.   To what JNA brigade was that Territorial Defence of the SBWS

12     attached in Tovarnik?

13        A.   At the time, there was a motorised brigade from Kraljevo but I

14     don't know its number.  It was the Motorised Kraljevo Brigade.

15        Q.   From Tovarnik you went to Ilaca, Croatia; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please draw a circle around Ilaca, writing number 3 to

18     it, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   In what capacity did you go to Ilaca?

21        A.   In the same capacity as in the case of Tovarnik.  I was a member

22     of the Territorial Defence of the SBWS, or, rather, I was a volunteer for

23     that body.

24        Q.   And for the record, Ilaca, I-l-a-c-a.

25             From Ilaca, Mr. Stoparic, you went to Djeletovci; is that

Page 4695

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And could you now please draw a circle around Djeletovci, writing

 4     number 4.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And in what capacity did you go to Djeletovci?

 7        A.   Yet again, I was a volunteer within the Territorial Defence of

 8     the SBWS.

 9        Q.   And do you recall approximately when you were in Djeletovci, on

10     this occasion?

11        A.   It was probably at the beginning of September, but I don't know

12     exactly.  I've forgotten.

13        Q.   From Djeletovci you then went to Lipovaca in Serbia; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now I know that Lipovaca is not on the map.  Are you able to

17     locate it, drawing an X in the approximate area.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And could you draw the number, I believe we're now at number 5,

20     next to that X.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   And in what capacity were you in Lipovaca?

23        A.   Well, we were still volunteers for the TO of SBWS there.

24     However, we were provided with training.  The volunteers were brought up

25     to strength.  And then we were renamed.  In fact, we were told we would

Page 4696

 1     be under the command of the Guards Brigade.  It would no longer be called

 2     the Kraljevo Brigade.  We would no longer be under the Kraljevo Brigade.

 3     And then we were to be sent to Vukovar.  That's what was said.

 4        Q.   And from Lipovaca, Serbia, where did you go next?

 5        A.   Our next destination was Vukovar, or to be more precise,

 6     Petrova Gora.  First went to Velepromet and -- well, that, in fact is

 7     Petrova Gora.

 8        Q.   When you were in Vukovar, in what capacity were you operating?

 9        A.   In Vukovar, we joined the Leva Supoderica detachment or unit.

10     And as a detachment, we were under the command of the Guards Brigade.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stoparic.  Just one moment, please.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  I just looked up and saw that we -- but it's not

13     operative; is that correct?  The private ... okay.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That is correct.  Thank you.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Stoparic.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Why is that on, Mr. Registrar.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's a good reason.  It's broken.

20             MS. BIERSAY:

21        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, could you now draw a circle around Vukovar

22     numbering it, I believe that we are now at number 6.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   What was your position within the Leva Supoderica?

25        A.   Well, first we arrived at Velepromet where we were issued with

Page 4697

 1     new uniforms and we were taken to Nova Ulica from there.  That was the

 2     name of the place, Nova Ulica, or New Street.

 3        Q.   Did you have a specific role with respect to Leva Supoderica?

 4     Did you have a title?

 5        A.   For the first three days I was the commander of a detachment, and

 6     then up until the end of the war I was a platoon commander.

 7        Q.   And over --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I was first a squad

 9     commander and subsequently a platoon commander.

10             MS. BIERSAY:

11        Q.   When you were a platoon commander, over how many squads did you

12     have responsibility?

13        A.   Well, there were three squads, I think.  Between 38 and 40 men I

14     would say.

15        Q.   And when you say "38 to 48 [sic] men," do you mean in each squad

16     or total.

17        A.   In total.  In the platoon.

18        Q.   Now, after Vukovar you were deployed to Bosnia and Herzegovina;

19     is that correct?

20        A.   I was in Bosnia and Herzegovina as a volunteer for the Serbian

21     Radical Party, which was also under the command -- it was also under the

22     command of the JNA.

23        Q.   I won't ask you to mark that.  Now, after Bosnia and Herzegovina

24     you returned to Sid; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  I returned to Sid.

Page 4698

 1        Q.   And could you put a number 7 next to the number that's already

 2     there for Sid, which was your starting point.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   After Sid, you went to Djeletovci again; is that correct?

 5        A.   Well, yes.  I was then a member of the Skorpions unit and their

 6     base was in Djeletovci.  But I also went to Bosnia with that unit.

 7        Q.   And at this time could you write, please, the number 8 next to

 8     the number that you already have for Djeletovci.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Now, you describe that you were deployed to -- with the Skorpions

11     to Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Could you, in a very summary fashion, tell

12     the Trial Chamber where you went after leaving Djeletovci, Croatia?

13        A.   Well, we went to two areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We went to

14     the Bihac battle-field and the other battle-field was the Trnovo

15     battle-field in the vicinity of Sarajevo, in the surroundings of

16     Sarajevo.  In fact, there were three areas.  There was another one in

17     Velika Kladusa in Cazinska Krajina, the Cazin Krajina.

18        Q.   And after Bosnia, where did you go?

19        A.   Well, after Bosnia, I went to Djeletovci again and then to Sid

20     and then I was in the JSO reserve force.  We returned to the Slavonia,

21     Baranja, and Western Srem again.  But that was prior to the Erdut

22     Agreement, and we weren't engaged in combat activity of any kind.

23        Q.   Could you explain what you mean by "JSO reserve force."  What

24     does JSO stand for?  If you -- if you know.

25        A.   Well, the JSO is a special unit.  They used to call them or they

Page 4699

 1     would usually call that unit the Red Berets.  And I went from Sid to Tara

 2     to Hotel Amerika.  We were provided with significant training there, and

 3     we were then sent onto Krajina from there.  Or, rather, to Slavonia,

 4     Baranja, and Western Srem.  The JSO was also a unit that belonged to the

 5     state security of the Republic of Serbia.

 6        Q.   When did you end your military career?

 7        A.   It was in Kosovo in 1999.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, the Prosecution would tender both the

 9     marked version of 65 ter number 6329.1 as well as the unmarked version.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The 65 ter document 6329.1 unmarked map shall be

12     assigned Exhibit P1723.

13             And the marked version of this document shall be assigned

14     Exhibit P1724.

15             Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, I'd like to go back to your 2003 statement.

18     So if we could go back to tab 1, 65 ter 5977.

19             Now, regarding your November 2003 statement, in preparation for

20     your testimony in the Stanisic and Simatovic case in December of 2010,

21     you had an opportunity to review the statement in your own language; is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And based on your review, an amendment to this 2003 statement was

25     prepared in order to make it more accurate; is that correct?

Page 4700

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You made some corrections to the November 2003 statement, and

 3     that -- those corrections were recording -- recorded in a separate

 4     document and submitted for your review; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  Now if we could please turn to tab 2.  65 ter

 7     number 5976, please.

 8        Q.   Now, this is a bilingual document.  Do you recognise this

 9     document, Mr. Stoparic?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

12        A.   Well, those are the amendments that I made.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could scroll to the bottom of that page,

14     please.

15        Q.   Do you recognise the initials at the end of that document?

16        A.   Yes.  They are my initials.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Now for the record --

18        Q.   This is not directed at you, Mr. Stoparic.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  For the record this amendment also covers some

20     corrections to a 2005 statement which is not relevant for these

21     proceedings.

22             There's a second page to this document.  Could we please see it.

23     And scrolling to the bottom of this page 2.

24        Q.   Do you recognise the initials on that page?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4701

 1        Q.   And whose initials do you recognise them to be?

 2        A.   Mine.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, in relation to this case, the Hadzic case, you

 4     again reviewed your November 2003 statement; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And did you have some additional corrections that you wanted made

 7     to that statement?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I think there were no corrections to make.

 9        Q.   Well, perhaps the word "correction" is not the appropriate word.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we turn back to tab 1.  65 ter 5977.

11             And if we could now go to the second page in the -- the English.

12     Specifically going to paragraph 6.

13        Q.   In paragraph 6, Mr. Stoparic --

14             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could look at the B/C/S version.  Thank you.

15        Q.   It describes that you joined the volunteers sometime in July of

16     1991.  Regarding the July date, is there anything that you'd like to

17     modify?

18        A.   Yes, that was probably the end of August or the beginning of

19     September.  I'm wrong about -- I was wrong about July.  That's too early.

20        Q.   And now I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 7.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  And the B/C/S -- yes, it's there as well.  In

22     paragraph 7, it would be page 3 in the English.

23        Q.   You say "TO volunteer," which TO are you referring to in

24     paragraph 7?

25        A.   Well, at that time the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja,

Page 4702

 1     and Western Srem was established.  I mean that TO.  It's simply shorter

 2     to say just "TO" but I refer to TO SBWS.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if we could turn to paragraph 9.

 4        Q.   Towards the end of that paragraph, the -- the third sentence

 5     before the end, it starts:  "We were subordinated ..."

 6             Do you see that sentence, Mr. Stoparic?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   So it reads:

 9             "We were subordinated to the 1st Guards Brigade of the JNA."

10             And this is in reference to your time in Tovarnik.  Are there any

11     modifications that you'd like to make to that sentence?

12        A.   Yes, that was my mistake.  It should read a brigade from

13     Kraljevo.  We were not under the Guards Brigade at that time.  So I was

14     wrong saying the Guards Brigade.  I should have said "a brigade" or "the

15     brigade from Kraljevo."

16             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if we could turn to paragraph 17, which is

17     on page 4 of the English.  I believe 6 of the B/C/S.  5.

18        Q.   The third line, it says:

19             "We were withdrawing from Krajina ..."

20             And I wondered if you could describe to the Trial Chamber what

21     you mean by "Krajina" in that paragraph?

22        A.   Well, that's the district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

23     I always referred to it as Krajina, for short.  But there was also a

24     Knin Krajina.  I usually call them Krajina, but I mean the district of

25     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

Page 4703

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Now turning to paragraph 32, which I believe is

 2     B/C/S, 9, page 9, and English page -- also 9.  Oh, excuse me, it's 7.

 3        Q.   In this paragraph, Mr. Stoparic, you refer to the -- the saving

 4     of what's described as a member of the ZNG Croatian National Guard called

 5     Damir Lorenzo.  Do you see that name?

 6        A.   Yes.  However, I described here the incident where he was abused

 7     a little and then rescued, and I thought he was called Damir Lorenzo.

 8     However, three years ago I was watching on the Internet a trial before

 9     this Tribunal and I saw a man from Croatia, Captain Velin Karlovic, and I

10     recognised him.  So it's not Damir Lorenzo.  It's that Veljko Karlovic.

11     And I heard him, watching the trial, describe the same event.

12        Q.   Now directing your attention to paragraph 52 --

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Which is page 11 in the English.  And perhaps ...

14        Q.   I know that you corrected this in a 2005 statement, Mr. Stoparic.

15     But because we're using the 2003 statement, we have to address it here.

16             Directing your attention to paragraph 52.

17        A.   Well, it says at some point I visited the camp in Buna in

18     Podvelezje where volunteers of the radical party were.  Actually, I was

19     never there.  That's what I corrected.  I have never been there.

20        Q.   And now directing your attention to paragraph 75, which in

21     English is on page 15.

22             Specifically, I'd refer you to the last part of that sentence.

23     Can you see it in your own language on the screen, Mr. Stoparic?

24        A.   Yes, I know.  I remember.  Here I corrected this part where I

25     joined the Skorpions.  There were 200 men.  I thought 30 per cent were

Page 4704

 1     without experience, 30 per cent were experienced, and 30 per cent were

 2     undergoing training in Kula and Tara.

 3             What is written here is "Frenki's Red Berets."  No, that was not

 4     the case.  They were just sent there for training.  That's where the

 5     mistake is.  What it says here is "directly from the Red Berets," which

 6     is not true.  Our men went there for training.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, with those modifications that you've just

 8     made, in light of the 2010 amendment, if the Trial Chamber considers your

 9     2003 statement in conjunction with the 2010 amendment and the

10     modifications you've made here, would they have an accurate and truthful

11     account of your evidence?

12        A.   The Chamber would have a reflection of my testimony which, as far

13     as I know, is truthful and accurate.  That is what I have experienced.

14        Q.   I'd now like to ask you some additional questions, Mr. Stoparic.

15             First, regarding paragraphs 6 and 41 of your statement, you

16     discuss the nationalist idealogy and propaganda that was happening in the

17     former Yugoslavia in 1991.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I would now like to play for you what is at tab 94.

20     65 ter number 470.1, and it's a clip from 16 minute and 50 seconds to

21     17 -- we won't start it just yet -- to 17 minute, 34 seconds.  And it is

22     from the BBC documentary, "The Death of Yugoslavia."  And this is -- the

23     specific clip that's being played is believed to have been during the

24     early part of 1991.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 4705

 1             "To this end, extremist allies of President Milosevic set about

 2     provoking a conflict between the Serbs and Croats."

 3             MS. BIERSAY:

 4        Q.   Did you recognise the speaker?

 5        A.   Yes.  That's Dr. Vojislav Seselj, president of the Serbian

 6     Radical Party.

 7        Q.   Have you ever met him in person?

 8        A.   Yes, in Sid.  We did not talk on that occasion, but we shook

 9     hands when he visited, and for a while I was a member of that party.

10        Q.   And now --

11        A.   But we talked here in the courtroom.  That's where we got to know

12     each bother better.

13        Q.   And by that you mean in the Seselj case?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I'd now like to direct your attention to this clip pertaining to

16     Plitvice in April of 1991.  And it's tab -- tab 97.  65 ter 4990.1.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The Serbian people live here.  This

19     is Serbian land.  And will forever remain Serbian.  Since the decision

20     about establishing the SBWS, he called historic, Dr. Seselj said the

21     following:  This, you are the people who are supposed to defend Serbian

22     borders.  He promised that nobody -- Serbs in Croatia will not be left on

23     their own.  You are heroically led by Dr. Milan Babic.  He called

24     traitors those who divide the Serbian people, agents of foreign

25     intelligence services like Ante Markovic are the only ones who believed

Page 4706

 1     there are greater problems today and more important things than defending

 2     and protecting you.  They are selling you to Tudjman.  You will not be

 3     sold.  Instead of calming the crowd, Seselj delivered the following

 4     message to the people:  We send a message to the Ustasha regime in

 5     Croatia:  There have been enough Serbian heads that rolled from Ustasha

 6     hands.  We will avenge Serbian blood."

 7             MS. BIERSAY:

 8        Q.   Before I ask you to comment, Mr. Stoparic, could we play it again

 9     but without the -- the translation.  Just for a moment.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. BIERSAY:

12        Q.   Do you recognise the person speaking at 23 seconds?

13        A.   Yes.  That's Vojislav Seselj.

14        Q.   And the person standing next to him, do you recognise that

15     person?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Stoparic, these two clips that we've heard these two

18     speeches, how does this compare to the type of propaganda you describe in

19     your statement?

20        A.   Well, you have to know that I described it as propaganda after

21     the war.  At that time, it was not propaganda to me.  At that time, I saw

22     it as a patriotic speech.  Seselj delivered many similar speeches.

23     Depending on the year in which he spoke, they varied a little, but -- I

24     don't know what you want me to tell you.

25        Q.   Just answering the question the -- in the manner that you find

Page 4707

 1     fit is good enough.

 2             Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether Seselj was the only one

 3     making such speeches?

 4        A.   No.  At that time, there was a number of politicians speaking

 5     about the threat of the Serbian people, such as Vuk Draskovic.  But

 6     Seselj was the one who most influenced my decision to join in the war

 7     effort.  I thought at the time that he was telling the whole truth, that

 8     everything he was saying was true, and, at that time, I didn't even know

 9     Serbian history so well.  That's what I mean.

10        Q.   Mr. Stoparic, in your statement, you describe the -- what's

11     referred to -- I'd like to find the exact wording.

12             You describe that in -- in May 1991, after the events in

13     Borovo Selo an office opened in the local community centre in Sid.

14             Now, before I ask you follow-up questions to that, I'd like to

15     take a look at tab 94, which is 65 ter number 4770.1, and this is a

16     different part.  Now we'll look at clip 20 minute, 27 seconds, to 20

17     minute, 47 seconds.  And again, it's also from the BBC documentary, "The

18     Death of Yugoslavia."

19                           [Video-clip played]

20              "... for protection.

21             MS. BIERSAY:

22        Q.   Now, based on what you know about the events, is Mr. Seselj

23     referring to the same Borovo Selo events that you describe in your

24     statement?

25        A.   There was only that one incident in Borovo Selo on the 2nd of

Page 4708

 1     May, I believe.  After that, the war started.  But that's the event that

 2     he was referring to, yes.

 3        Q.   In paragraph 6, you describe going to the office of the TO, and

 4     you also describe it in paragraph 4, and this office is the recruitment

 5     office for the TO SBWS in Sid.

 6             Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what, if anything, you

 7     heard on the radio about this office before you went in?

 8        A.   That office was in a building in the centre of Sid.  That

 9     building housed socio-political organisations, including political

10     parties, Radio Sid, et cetera.  The Territorial Defence of the Slavonia,

11     Baranja, and Western Srem had their offices there.  That was written on

12     the door and that's where people gathered who had fled Croatia.

13             Yes, there was a Radio Sid, but I understood Radio Sid to say

14     that people who are from Croatia should report at those premises.  I

15     didn't understand that people from Serbia could report and apply too.

16        Q.   And who was making the statements about people from Croatia

17     reporting to the premises of the TO SBWS?

18        A.   Well, there were many activists there, beginning with Seselj's

19     Chetnik movement which later became the Radical Party.  I was told by

20     Veljko Petric, and later I saw it for myself and heard it from various

21     people.  On the radio, it was announced by the news caster as some sort

22     of press release or statement.

23        Q.   Do you know who -- whose press release or statement it was?  Or

24     what party that release or statement came from.

25        A.   Considering that Seselj's members of the Radical Party were in

Page 4709

 1     that building too, it was from somebody from the Chetnik movement or the

 2     Radical Party or perhaps the TO of SBWS.  But I think it was Seselj's

 3     radicals.

 4        Q.   Where geographically was the recruitment office for the TO of

 5     SBWS in Sid, Serbia?

 6        A.   In my town, in Sid, it did not say recruitment office.  It was

 7     written on the door "TO SBWS," but it was said that that's where people

 8     should report and that's where I reported to join.  It was in the centre

 9     of Sid.

10        Q.   What party, if any, was on the first floor of that building?

11        A.   The Socialist Party, the Serbian Radical Party, Radio Sid was on

12     the top floor.  And there were probably more political parties with

13     offices there, but I can't remember the others.  Some shared offices.

14     When the SBWS people left, then the Serbian Radical Party and the

15     Socialist Party had the entire floor to themselves.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Perhaps this would be a good time to tender some of

17     the exhibits that I showed to the witness, Your Honours.

18             At this time we tender the clip from tab 4, 65 ter number 4770.1.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1725, thank you.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  And, Your Honours, it would be our intention to

22     combine those two clips.  We'd split them up, but just the one exhibit

23     number for the two parts that we played.  Just so that the record is

24     clear.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we do that, Mr. Registrar.

Page 4710

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  You do it.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  So you'd prefer to have two separate numbers for

 4     each part --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Not necessarily.  If you combine the two clips.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  It has been combined, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It has been combined.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Does that satisfy you, Mr. Registrar?

10             MS. BIERSAY:  And if it hasn't been, we will certainly do so.

11             It has been combined, from what I understand.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Then we have to -- is it -- we have given

14     it an exhibit number, right?

15             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

16             And then the next one would be tab 97, 65 ter 4990.1.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1726, thank you.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  And I am mindful of the time, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, this is the end of the hearing

21     today.  We will have you back tomorrow morning at 9.00.  That means that

22     you're not released as a witness and that you are not allowed to discuss

23     your testimony with anyone, and you are not allowed to talk to any of the

24     parties.

25             Do you understand?

Page 4711

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 3             The court usher will escort you out of town -- sorry, out of the

 4     courtroom, and we will see you tomorrow at 9.00.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If there is nothing else to be discussed, court

 7     adjourned.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of May,

10                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.