Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4985

 1                           Tuesday, 28 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

14     the Prosecution Douglas Stringer, Lisa Biersay, Thomas Laugel, and

15     legal intern, Kai Hong Leung.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  For the Defence.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

18     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             We have two short oral rulings.

21             The Trial Chamber was seized for the Prosecution's eleventh

22     motion for leave to amend the Rule 65 ter exhibit list filed 21st of May.

23     The Defence has indicated that it does not oppose the motion.  The motion

24     to amend is hereby granted and the Registry shall take the necessary

25     measures to implement this decision.


Page 4986

 1             We are also seized of a confidential Prosecution request for

 2     substitution of documents included in the Rule 65 ter package of

 3     Witness GH-060 filed on 6th of May.  The Defence has indicated that it

 4     takes no position in relation to the request.  The request is hereby

 5     granted and the Registry shall take the necessary measures to implement

 6     this decision.

 7             The witness may be brought in.

 8             Perhaps it would be good to let the parties know and everyone

 9     know that we will take our second break at 12.00 rather than at 12.15 and

10     it will be for half an hour and then we go on as usual.  Thank you.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  I take it your

13     testimony will be in English.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you tell us your name and your

16     date of birth, please.

17             THE WITNESS:  My name Morten Torkildsen.  I was born on

18     4th June, 1965.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You are about to make the

20     solemn declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the

21     truth.  I have to point out to you that by doing so you -- you could be

22     liable for perjury should you give false or untruthful information to the

23     Tribunal.

24             So could I now ask you to read the solemn declaration the

25     Court Usher will give you.


Page 4987

 1             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 2     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 5                           WITNESS:  MORTEN TORKILDSEN

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, your witness.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Torkildsen.  Can you hear me?

10        A.   I can hear you very well.  Thank you.

11        Q.   Where do you currently call home, what country?

12        A.   Norway.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Before we begin, if I may ask for some assistance

14     in providing this binder of some selected documents to Mr. Torkildsen,

15     and I have spoken to the Defence about it already.  Thank you.  It's just

16     to get prepared for the documents that we'll go through.

17        Q.   Before we get to that, Mr. Torkildsen, could you tell the

18     Trial Chamber where you were working between 2001 and 2003?

19        A.   I worked here at the Office of the Prosecutor as a financial

20     investigator.

21        Q.   What were your primary duties?

22        A.   Well, for the first six months I was here in the first half of

23     2001.  I was working asset tracing in relation to the Milosevic case.

24        Q.   Did that task evolve into another?

25        A.   Yes.  That -- after Mr. Milosevic was brought into custody in --

Page 4988

 1     in the summer of 2001, I was tasked to -- to -- well, what I'm here

 2     for -- for today in terms of trying to identify whether there were any

 3     evidence regarding how Republika Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska was

 4     financed.

 5        Q.   Now we'll talk about that in more detail in a minute, but before

 6     we do that could you describe to the Trial Chamber where you worked

 7     immediately before joining the ICTY, specifically the

 8     Office of the Prosecutor, in 2001?

 9        A.   I was working for Advokatfirmaet in Norway which is the Norwegian

10     service field office.

11        Q.   And what did you do there?

12        A.   I was working as a financial investigator.

13        Q.   What were your duties there?

14        A.   My duties were to investigate cases involving allegations of

15     fraud, corruption, and other financial irregularities.

16        Q.   Could you tell us how that pre-Tribunal experience assisted you

17     in discharging your duties here when you worked at the ICTY?

18        A.   It was to a large extent the same kind of work.  I was

19     identifying financial evidence.  I was analysing that evidence, putting

20     it into reports, and I was also occasionally testifying in court.

21        Q.   What is your educational background?

22        A.   I am educated from the UK with a bachelor degree in management

23     sciences from University of Manchester Institute of Science and

24     Technology, department of management sciences, that was for my bachelor

25     degree, and I'm also educated with a master of science from

Page 4989

 1     City University Business School in shipping, trade, and finance, mainly

 2     finance, though.

 3        Q.   I'd like to focus now on your experience before international

 4     courts.  In what cases have you testified before this Tribunal at the

 5     ICTY?

 6        A.   I have testified as an expert witness on finance in the Milosevic

 7     case and I also testified as an expert case in finance in the Perisic

 8     case.

 9        Q.   What written evidence, if any, did you provide in those cases?

10        A.   I provided in -- well, in the first -- in the Milosevic case I

11     provided evidence regarding how both the Serbian controlled districts in

12     Croatia and the Serbian controlled districts in Bosnia-Herzegovina were

13     financed from the FRY -- FRY and from Serbia.

14        Q.   And when you describe that you provided evidence in this regard,

15     was it in a report?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Before what other international court have you appeared?

18        A.   I've also appeared before the International Court of Justice here

19     in The Hague as part of the team pleading the case of Bosnia-Herzegovina

20     against Serbia and Montenegro.  That was in 2006.  I was then delivering

21     or pleading the financial part of that case.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Now turning to tab 92, may we please have 65 ter

23     number 6423 displayed on the screen.

24        Q.   And you should also have that in your binder, but there is no

25     need to turn to it.  It's one -- two pages.  And there is no B/C/S for

Page 4990

 1     this document.

 2             Do you recognise the document, Mr. Torkildsen?

 3        A.   Do you think you can have this enlarged?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   Sorry, I forgot my glasses.  Yes, I recognise this as my current

 6     CV.

 7        Q.   And does it have the most up-to-date information regarding your

 8     professional experience?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 6423.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1974.  Thank you.  And

13     just to mention there is B/C/S.  Thank you.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, before we begin, could you describe for the

16     Trial Chamber what the guiding principle is when you're conducting

17     financial investigations?

18        A.   Well, first of all, it's a matter of what your tasking is.  And

19     then it's a matter of trying to identify relevant documents according to

20     your tasking.  And that would be the first stage, then to try and

21     identify documents.  And then the second stage would be to try and

22     collect these documents.  And then I would conduct a review of the

23     documents, an initial review.  And then I would analyse them further.

24     And normally in the end I would write up a report of my views on those

25     documents and what they mean.

Page 4991

 1        Q.   I'd like to go back to what you said, that initially when you

 2     joined the Office of the Prosecutor your task was to look into -- to

 3     trace the assets to the accused Milosevic and that changed.  How did your

 4     assignment change?

 5        A.   Well, the -- the asset tracing is very much when the suspect is

 6     not in the control of -- or not in -- in custody.  It's a matter of

 7     tracing assets to avoid, well, the flight risk of the suspect which is

 8     very much different from -- from this -- the work that I did later on.

 9        Q.   The work -- how did you come to do the work that you did later

10     on, specifically the collection of the documents that pertained to your

11     report?

12        A.   During my asset tracing period, to put it like that, that lasted

13     for, well, five or six months, I did when I looked into the huge

14     collection of evidence that the OTP did discover that there were a lot of

15     documents already at the OTP that could say something about how the RSK

16     and the RS was financed.

17        Q.   Were you formally asked to produce a report in this regard?

18        A.   Not -- not at that time.

19        Q.   And eventually you were --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- asked?  And what methodology did you undertake to produce this

22     report that is the subject of your testimony here today?

23        A.   I used the same methodology as I just described.  I was

24     concentrating on the -- on what was already in evidence at -- at the OTP,

25     and then I'm talking about what's in the huge electronic evidence

Page 4992

 1     collection that's contained within the OTP.  So I was simply trying to

 2     identify all documents that could be of relevance regarding how the Serb

 3     controlled districts in Croatia and the Serb controlled districts in

 4     Bosnia were financed.

 5        Q.   How did you go about assessing the electronic data that was

 6     within the OTP?

 7        A.   Well, typically we would do electronic searches on key words like

 8     "banking," "finance," "money," "budgets," "accounts," et cetera, and I

 9     was again reviewing the hits together with of course a language

10     assistant.

11        Q.   Are you able to quantify the pages of data that you reviewed

12     during this process?

13        A.   Well, there must have been thousands of -- of pages of documents.

14     I -- most likely I spent a year trying to -- to identify documents.

15        Q.   When it came time -- I'm sorry.  After you collected the

16     documents, what did you then do?

17        A.   Well, I reviewed them in -- in much more detail doing an analysis

18     and see -- and try to see whether there were any kind of pattern when it

19     comes to the financing.

20        Q.   And were you able to discern a pattern in the financing of the

21     RSK and the RS?

22        A.   Yes.  It was pretty clear.  And it was -- well, both the RS and

23     the RSK, it was financed in the -- in the same manner.  Both of those

24     entities were more or less exclusively financed from -- from Belgrade, at

25     least for a -- for a certain period.

Page 4993

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd like now to turn to tab 48, which is

 2     65 ter 2477.

 3        Q.   And that's also in your binder, Mr. Torkildsen.  Is it --

 4     regarding your glasses, is it easier for you to see the screen or is it

 5     easier to work with a hard copy?  Just to know how to go forward.

 6        A.   I think I'll manage with the hard copy.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8        A.   As long as you can direct me to the right tab number.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Torkildsen, your glasses are at the hotel or

11     are they at the witness room here in the building.

12             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I think I forgot them at the

13     hotel.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

15             THE WITNESS:  But I'll manage.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

17             MS. BIERSAY:

18        Q.   I have a pair if we are in dire need that I can lend you.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  So if we could now have 65 ter 2477.

20        Q.   Which is tab 48 for you, Mr. Torkildsen.  I'm just waiting for it

21     to come on the screen.  Looking at the first page of this document, do

22     you recognise it?

23        A.   Yes.  I recognise this as the report I wrote at that time.

24        Q.   And I know we are looking at the first page at the table of

25     contents.  Could you just briefly describe in your own words how you

Page 4994

 1     approached the organisation of the report?

 2        A.   Well, my tasking, then, was to -- to try and identify if any

 3     relevant documents regarding how the RSK and how Republika Srpska was

 4     financed from -- from institutions in the FRY and the Republic of Serbia

 5     under the alleged control of Slobodan Milosevic.  That was my tasking.

 6     And again my methodology was according to what I have described

 7     previously.

 8        Q.   And as far as the structure of the report, how did you approach

 9     that?

10        A.   Yeah.  I was tasked to divide the documents into the financing of

11     the Serb controlled districts in Croatia in one section and another

12     section regarding the financing of -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The

13     problem being with that was that both these two entities were financed in

14     the same manner, so it was difficult for me to sort of put, well, one

15     document in -- in an -- in one box because the pattern of financing

16     were -- were exactly the same.

17        Q.   Generally speaking, how are the expenses of a country financed?

18        A.   Normally countries are financed by -- by taxes, like taxes on

19     personal income, VAT, taxes on business profits, custom duties,

20     government borrowing, et cetera.

21        Q.   And in the period before 1991, how were the expenses within

22     Yugoslavia financed?

23        A.   They were mostly financed from what I described just now.

24        Q.   Briefly, could you describe the different levels of budgets that

25     existed in -- in the former Yugoslavia?

Page 4995

 1        A.   Well from the time-period that I looked at then, mainly 1991 to

 2     and including 1995, I have reviewed budgets and annual accounts of the

 3     SFRY, the FRY, Republika Srpska, Republika Srpska Krajina, and also some

 4     of the SAOs in Croatia.

 5        Q.   Going back to your description about how financing typically

 6     works in countries, do you have a term when you talk about the taxes and

 7     those components that you previously described?

 8        A.   Yes.  In the -- the budgets and accounts that I have reviewed,

 9     the typical term for this would be "original income."  And

10     "original income" in this respect means -- means taxes, VAT, et cetera.

11        Q.   How did the financing evolve in the former Yugoslavia from what

12     you've just described as the original income?

13        A.   What I have seen from the -- from the early budgets and accounts

14     that I reviewed, then talking about 1991, it was to -- then early in

15     1991, yeah, it was to a large extent financed by what I now have

16     described as original income.  But then later on in the second half of

17     1991, the budgets started to be financed by the National Bank of

18     Yugoslavia through the printing of money at the printing facility in

19     Belgrade under the control of the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  So

20     were -- so the SFRY in the second half of 1991 were to an escalating sort

21     of progression from this finance of the printing of money.

22        Q.   What conclusions did you reach regarding the source of financial

23     and material support relied upon by the Serb controlled districts in

24     Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991 into -- for purposes of your

25     report until 1995?

Page 4996

 1        A.   Well, it -- it started in -- in 1991 where the Serbian

 2     Ministry of Defence were providing material sources and financial sources

 3     to the Serb controlled districts in Croatia.

 4        Q.   What was the basis for your conclusion in this regard?

 5        A.   Quite a few documents.  There were communication letters and

 6     official notes from -- from meetings between the leadership of Serbia and

 7     the leadership of the Serb controlled districts in Croatia, and I also

 8     reviewed requests from the Serb controlled districts in -- in Croatia in

 9     late 1991 and responses to that from Serbia.

10        Q.   And what conclusions, if any, did you reach regarding the source

11     of financing for the Army of the RSK and of the Republika Srpska, the RS?

12        A.   When we are moving into 1992, the National Bank of Yugoslavia

13     were printing money on an escalated basis and that money was used to

14     finance the budget deficits of both Republika Srpska Krajina and

15     Republika Srpska -- that was one part of the financing - and the

16     budgetary financing from Belgrade to these two entities; and you also

17     have the -- the case that -- that the FRY financed the offices of the RS

18     Army and the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.

19        Q.   What was the basis for that conclusion?

20        A.   The financing of the offices, again, that is apparent from the

21     document that I have reviewed.

22        Q.   The printing of money, does that -- or are there some terms that

23     are used to describe that?

24        A.   Yes.  There are various terms.  And those terms are apparent from

25     the budgets and annual accounts that I have reviewed.  You have a term

Page 4997

 1     called "primary emissions," you have "primary issues," and you also have

 2     the term "credits," but they all basically mean money printed at the top

 3     cedar [phoen] mint, the printing facility of the National Bank of

 4     Yugoslavia in Belgrade.

 5        Q.   I'd now like to turn to tab 13 which is in your binder, and it is

 6     65 ter 568.

 7             Now, Mr. Torkildsen, I notice that you are reading it in your

 8     binder.  Are you able to see --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   -- clearly?

11        A.   I'm able to see.  Thank you.

12        Q.   Good.  Do you recognise this document?

13        A.   Yes.  I recognise it.  That's one of the documents that I have

14     reviewed for my report.

15        Q.   And for the record this is referenced in paragraphs 25, 33, and

16     98 of your report.  What do you recognise this document to be?

17        A.   Well, it is -- that is a statement there -- an official note from

18     the talks between representatives of the RSK government and President

19     Slobodan Milosevic.

20        Q.   And looking in the first paragraph, it describes who is present;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   That is correct.  And it's -- it also refers to the meeting

23     taking place on 12th November 1992.

24        Q.   And could -- are you able to see the underlined names?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4998

 1        Q.   So we can have it in the record.

 2        A.   Yes.  The ones present were then-President Slobodan Milosevic;

 3     Prime Minister Radoman Bozovic; and the governor of the National Bank of

 4     Serbia; and from the RSK, it was President Goran Hadzic;

 5     Prime Minister Zecevic; and Minister of the Interior Martic;

 6     Minister of Defence Spanovic; and Finance Minister Peuraca; and

 7     Deputy Prime Minister Bosko Bozanic.  And it is further stated here that

 8     at that meeting the mode of financial assistance to the Krajina until the

 9     end of this year was agreed.

10        Q.   And what significance, if any, did this document have for your

11     report?

12        A.   Well, it had the significance that -- that the -- that the

13     leadership of the RSK was discussing with the president of Serbia how

14     they should be -- should be financed.  And I also, well, compare -- and I

15     also comparing this to other document -- documents that this is really a

16     meeting where they are outlining their coming needs, financial needs.

17        Q.   If I can direct your attention to the -- let's say the fourth

18     paragraph, which is really the second substantial paragraph, and it's

19     underlined:

20             "The president, Mr. Milosevic, agreed to the concept of creating

21     a defence system of the Krajina which would be based on about 23.000

22     people in the police, of whom 5.000 in the regular force and 18.000 in

23     brigades which would make up the peacetime corps of the army and provide

24     security for the borders of the Krajina."

25             What relevance, if any, did that have for your findings in your

Page 4999

 1     report?

 2        A.   Well, it outlines the size of the manpower that needs to be

 3     financed from Belgrade.  And I would also like to highlight what is

 4     written further down in that paragraph.  It was accepted that the

 5     planning of funds for army and police needs should be begin immediately

 6     as was done in 1992 via the RSK Ministry of Defence and the

 7     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia.  So what they also --

 8     well, this document is telling me that they are also pointing back at the

 9     practice that had been going on for some time.

10        Q.   I'd now like to leave this document and go to tab 38.  And in

11     tab 38 which is 65 ter number 1926, I'd first like you to look at the

12     first page and then we'll move to page 20.  But let's get first page.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  And consistent with the Court's guidelines on

14     exhibits cited in the expert report, we won't be tendering them

15     individually in the courtroom which is why I didn't tender the previous

16     one.  And for the record this document is also referenced in

17     paragraph 116 of the report.

18             So if I could have just the first page so I could have

19     Mr. Torkildsen identify it.

20        Q.   Are you --

21        A.   This is one of the documents that I have reviewed for my report.

22        Q.   And what is it?

23        A.   Well, it is, as it is stated there on the first page, it is a

24     memorandum for the co-ordination of tasks meeting at the Yugoslav Army

25     General Staff on 17th December, 1993.  It is also mentioned here in top

Page 5000

 1     right-hand corner that it is military secret and it's a strictly

 2     confidential document.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  And now if we could move to page 20, which I

 4     believe is page 10 in the B/C/S but page 20 in the English.

 5        Q.   And specifically under that subsection (c) entitled: "New

 6     Requests."  Now this reads:

 7             "We have learned unofficially that of the above total balance of

 8     requirements for 1994, the federal government will only be able to

 9     provide USD 850 million for all three armed forces instead of

10     USD 3.29 billion ..."

11             And below it says:

12             "For the SVK, this would amount to USD 79.3 million instead of

13     USD 307.30 million."

14             Could you describe what is being addressed in that section?

15        A.   What is being addressed here are the -- the requirements for the

16     three armed forces at that time for -- for 1994.  What I find interesting

17     about this exact quotes here is the fact that they are referring to the

18     numbers in dollar terms because this was at the time when -- when -- when

19     the FRY and also the RSK and the RS were facing hyperinflation meaning

20     that the dinar terms and the value of money at that time is -- is

21     difficult to put into perspective.  But here they are actually mentioning

22     the amounts in US dollar terms.  So it's easy to understand the value of

23     the money.  But that is one point.  And the other point is that they are

24     talking about the needs for all three armed forces together and they are

25     talking about the federal government providing for all three armed

Page 5001

 1     forces, viewing them as -- as one, well - what can we say? - one collect

 2     army.  At least they are looking at the financing for all three armies

 3     together.

 4        Q.   Now this refers to 1994.  What relevance, if any, would it have

 5     for the period of 1991 to 1993 which is the time-period of the indictment

 6     in this case?

 7        A.   Well, from all the documents I've seen, the financing were the

 8     same for the -- also for the previous years.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd now like to move, if we may, to tab 33 which is

10     65 -- excuse me, it's been previously admitted as Exhibit P208.140.

11        Q.   Also referenced in your report.  Do you recognise that document?

12        A.   Yes.  Again it's one of the documents I have previously reviewed.

13        Q.   And what is this document?

14        A.   Well, it's -- it's a document signed by Minister Milan Martic of

15     the RSK Ministry of the Interior in Knin, and it is addressed to the

16     president of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Slobodan Milosevic; the prime

17     minister of the Republic of Serbia; and the minister of interior of the

18     Republic of Serbia at that time.

19        Q.   What --

20        A.   And it is simply a request for money.

21        Q.   And what significance did this have for your report?

22        A.   What I think is highly significant here, and it is pointed at the

23     fact that I have seen from reviewing the budgets and the annual accounts,

24     and that is what is written here in the third paragraph:

25             "There are no funds in the budget of the RS Krajina for any

Page 5002

 1     significant increase as the RS Krajina has no real sources from which to

 2     fill its budget, as you certainly know."

 3             As I tried to explain earlier today is that a budget, a

 4     government budget, is normally financed through what I described as

 5     original income:  Taxes, VAT, et cetera.  But the RS Krajina at that time

 6     had no such income or at least not to -- to any large extent to finance

 7     its budget.  And this is exactly what Milan Martic is pointing out there,

 8     that the RS Krajina has no real sources from which to fill its budget,

 9     "as you certainly know."  And that's why he's addressing Mr. Milosevic

10     and others in order to fill that budget.

11        Q.   And when you say Mr. Milosevic, why do you say that?

12        A.   Because the -- this letter or request is addressed to him and to

13     others.

14        Q.   I'd now like to turn your attention to tab 23, if we may, which

15     is previously admitted Exhibit P1311 which is also referenced in your

16     report, paragraph 71.  While we wait for it to be on the screen, do you

17     recognise the document that I see that you are looking at in your binder?

18        A.   Yes, I recognise this document as one of the documents I

19     previously reviewed.

20        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

21        A.   It is a request from the government of the RSK to the federal

22     executive council -- federal secretariat for finance Yugoslav national

23     bank and it's addressed to the governor and deputy governor of the

24     National Bank of Yugoslavia.  It is stated at -- personally, them

25     personally.

Page 5003

 1        Q.   What significance, if any, did this have for your report?

 2        A.   Well, first of all, I would like to -- to quote what this -- what

 3     this -- what is stated here.  Well, first of all, they are referring to

 4     an article and so on.  And then it is stated here, "... please pay the

 5     some of --"

 6             These numbers are very high, so they are sort of difficult to put

 7     it into context, but the way I see it:

 8             "... please pay the some of 12.900.000.000 dinars, the funds

 9     required for July, to the budget of the Republic of Srpska Krajina no

10     later than 29th June 1992."

11             So the government of the RSK here is requesting the National Bank

12     of Yugoslavia to pay for their needs to -- to fulfil the income side of

13     their budget for July 1992, and it also then points that the instrumental

14     and important role that the National Bank of Yugoslavia is providing in

15     terms of providing financing for the RSK.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd now, if I may, move to tab 1 which is

17     65 ter 208.

18        Q.   And while we're waiting for it electronically, in your binder do

19     you recognise that document?

20        A.   Yes, again, I recognise this as one of the documents I have

21     reviewed.

22        Q.   And for the record, it's referenced in paragraph 18 of your

23     report.  Just based on the first page, what do you recognise it to be?

24        A.   Well, it is a document by the federal executive council and it is

25     a proposal of minimal needed funds that need to be provided in the budget

Page 5004

 1     of the Federation for the period July to September 1991.  And it is dated

 2     Belgrade, 21st July 1991.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could go to the second page, please.

 4        Q.   What significance, if any, did the -- the numbers on page 2 of

 5     this exhibit have for you regarding your report?

 6        A.   Yeah.  Well, first of all, I would like to mention that -- or

 7     just state that this a budget for that period for the SFRY.  And on

 8     page 2 it is -- it is stated what the money in that budget should be

 9     spent on, used for.

10        Q.   And --

11        A.   And the -- the total expenses here are listed at the bottom under

12     the total figure as -- as 26.7 -- approximately 26.7 billion dollars --

13     no, not dollars, dinars, sorry.  And we can see from the top here that

14     out of that total amount of -- of 26.7 billion dinars we can see that

15     17.7 billion dinars are going for the JNA, the army.  So approximately

16     two-thirds of the expenditure in this budget is suggested to go for the

17     JNA.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could now move to the next page, please,

19     being page 3.

20        Q.   What I'd like to focus on is in the -- towards the end, the words

21     "original income," and on the far right side it says 42.4.  Do you see

22     that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And could you describe what that is?

25        A.   Well, that is the percentage of income originating from what I

Page 5005

 1     had described previously as original income, the taxes.

 2        Q.   And -- but below that there is the number 52.3.  Could you

 3     describe what that number is associated with?

 4        A.   Yes.  That is the percentage being financed by the National Bank

 5     of Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   And what type of financing is that?

 7        A.   Well, that is -- at this time it is either a loan to the

 8     government budget by the National Bank of Yugoslavia or it would be a

 9     primary emissions, the printing of money.  But -- but as we have seen

10     later on, whether you gave a loan at that time or whether you just

11     provided funds to the -- to the printing of money, that would be the same

12     thing because -- because of the hyperinflation, that means that if you

13     gave someone a loan, they would virtually need to pay back nothing

14     because the money in just a few months later be would be worth almost

15     nothing.

16        Q.   I would like now to turn your attention to tab 4, which is also

17     referenced in your report at paragraph 20.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  And this is 65 ter number 265.

19        Q.   And my question to you while we wait for the electronic version

20     to be brought up is:  Do you recognise this document and, if so, what do

21     you recognise it to be?

22        A.   Again, I have reviewed this document before.  It's a document by

23     the federal executive council, and it's a draft law on revenue sources

24     for financing certain national defence requirements in 1991.  And it is

25     dated September 1991.

Page 5006

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  And for our purposes, if we could please go to

 2     page 6, which I believe is B/C/S 5.  And if we could scroll down in the

 3     English version, please.

 4        Q.   I'd now like to direct your attention to the paragraph that

 5     begins:

 6             "Of the total funds of 22.500 million dinars approved by the

 7     Yugoslav national bank, 15.700 million dinars familiars have been used

 8     for financing the JNA and a some of 6.800 million dinars has been used

 9     for settling obligations under sub-balances for financing other functions

10     as below ..."

11             And it follows there as a heading for the JNA.  Could you

12     describe what relevance, if any, this had for your report?

13        A.   Well, this draft law is basically about how the JNA should be --

14     should be financed from -- from this point in time and onwards.  And it

15     is clearly stated that it's going to be financed from the National Bank

16     of Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   Well --

18        A.   And I'd also like to draw to your attention the -- the following

19     page and the first paragraph on -- on that page.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  So if we could now move to page 7 which is still, I

21     believe, B/C/S 5.

22        Q.   Is it the paragraph that begins, "Due to an insufficient --"

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   -- "... inflow ..."

25        A.   So that is supporting what I have described earlier on.  It is

Page 5007

 1     stated here, "Due to the insufficient inflow of revenue, problems in

 2     financing the JNA have reached a critical point."  As I have tried to

 3     explain, there were a lack of original income at that time and,

 4     therefore, they had to find an alternative way of financing the JNA and

 5     the result was the National Bank of Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   Now this pertains to paragraph 20 of your report and at this time

 7     I would like to look at your report which is tab 48, and specifically on

 8     page 7, paragraph 19.  And it's regarding a -- a name that may be

 9     incorrectly attributed.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we please have page 7 of 65 ter -- of tab 48,

11     which is 65 ter 2477, please.

12        Q.   Now this actually -- we won't be discussing in detail that

13     exhibit, but it -- in that paragraph 19, you are referring, I believe, to

14     our 65 ter 253.  Now this is your report and I'll bring your attention to

15     page 7 where we see the name "Slobodan Pelivan."  And then below we come

16     to "Jure Pelivan."  Is -- or were those the correct names reflected in

17     the B/C/S version?

18        A.   Yes, as far as I remember.  But it should -- the first name,

19     "Slobodan Pelivan" should read "Jure Pelivan."  That is his correct name.

20     But as far as I remember, it was -- it must have been a typo then in

21     the -- in the B/C/S original version.

22        Q.   And now if we may turn to tab 22 which is 65 ter 1143.  And in

23     that regard, you were able to review some translations that differed

24     slightly from the quotes that you actually had in your report; is that

25     correct?

Page 5008

 1        A.   That is correct.  There do exist many various translations of the

 2     same documents within the OTP, so ...

 3        Q.   And did those minor changes in the translations change your

 4     reliance on the documentation in any way?

 5        A.   No.  The core essence of the documents were the same any way.

 6        Q.   And so now if we could turn to this tab 22, 65 ter number 1134.

 7     Do you recognise this?

 8        A.   Yes.  I've seen and reviewed the document before.

 9        Q.   And for the record this is in your report at paragraphs 25, 62,

10     and 73.  What is this document?

11        A.   Well, this document is a publication in the Official Gazette of

12     the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it is dated the

13     8th June 1992.

14        Q.   And what relevance, if any, did this have for your report?  And

15     perhaps it -- it would be -- can you use the version that's on the screen

16     before you, if you can see it, because I think your binder may not have

17     the most up-to-date version.

18        A.   Yes, correct.  I do not have this in my binder.  It is a decision

19     on the use of funds from primary issue.

20        Q.   Do I need to have that enlarged for you or can you read it?

21        A.   If you can enlarge it a bit, that would be great.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Can you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I can see that.

24        Q.   Okay.  And what relevance if any did this have for your report?

25        A.   Well, I would like to read out what is written there in

Page 5009

 1     Article 1:

 2             "Funds from the national bank of Yugoslavia's primary issue shall

 3     be used in accordance with the Decision of the National Bank of

 4     Yugoslavia on the goals and tasks of the common monetary policy and

 5     common elements of the credit policy in 1992, pursuant to the conditions

 6     stipulated in this Decision."

 7             It is, well, to put it in a simple manner, it is stated here

 8     that -- sorry, now I've got the B/C/S version in front of me.  It is

 9     stated here that it's up to the National Bank of Yugoslavia to decide how

10     this money that has been sent to the Republika Srpska should be used.

11        Q.   And what did that mean to you in terms of your report?

12        A.   Well, it -- it -- it means to me that it is Belgrade who's

13     determining the use of the money.  I would also like to draw your

14     attention to a matter that is also important and that is Article 3 in

15     this decision.  It is stated here that:

16             "Primary issue funds," meaning again the printing of money from

17     Belgrade, "shall be transferred temporarily to the accounts of commercial

18     banks for certain purposes through a special account of the payment

19     transactions and auditing services ..."

20             And I would like to pay to your attention the payment,

21     transaction, and auditing service which was an important instrument in

22     having money transported from Belgrade and distributed to the RS and the

23     RSK during 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994.

24        Q.   What is the SDK?

25        A.   Well, it's -- it's -- it's basically a mechanism for transferring

Page 5010

 1     money.  Just as we do have a functioning banking system today, we can --

 2     we can -- we can, well, get money across borders.  I mean, it's like

 3     compare it to the banking SWIFT system that we have functioning in

 4     Western Europe and other places in the world today.

 5        Q.   And what is the relationship, if any, between the SDK that you've

 6     just described and this payment, transactions, and auditing service?

 7        A.   That is the same.  It's just various translations of the SDK that

 8     do exist.

 9        Q.   I'd now like to turn to tab 75 which is a document that's not in

10     your report, and it's 65 ter 1655.

11             I've -- in paragraph 116 of your report, you describe the FRY

12     financing of the RSK and the RS, and I'd like to direct your attention to

13     this document.  Have you had a chance to review this document?

14        A.   Yes, I have.

15        Q.   And what is it?

16        A.   Well, there -- it is the minutes or the shorthand notes of a

17     session of the Supreme Defence Council held on 2nd June 1993.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd like to go to the second page of the document

19     which in the B/C/S it's between pages 1 and 2.  I think the last

20     paragraph gets split.  But in the English it's the very top paragraph of

21     page 2.  Actually, could we go back to page 1 just briefly.

22        Q.   I don't want to go into details about the -- all the attendees,

23     but it may be useful just to point out a few.  According to this,

24     Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia, is present; is that correct?

25        A.   That is correct.  Yes.

Page 5011

 1        Q.   As well as Colonel-General Zivota Panic, the

 2     Chief of General Staff of th Yugoslav Army.  Is that listed is there as

 3     well?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And now I'd like to go to page 2 of the English.  And it

 6     discusses that the Supreme Defence Council discussed the financial

 7     situation of the Yugoslav Army at the time of the passing of the budget

 8     and then again after the budget for -- for 1993 was passed, and also the

 9     federal government discussed it together with the governor of the

10     National Bank of Yugoslavia.  What, if anything, of significance does

11     that hold for you and your report?

12        A.   Well, first of all, if possible, I would like to take you back to

13     the -- to the previous page.

14        Q.   On page 1?

15        A.   Yes.  Because there is a heading here for that topic they are

16     discussing.

17        Q.   And towards the bottom of the page.

18        A.   Yes.  It is -- it is stated there that the topic for their

19     discussion is "information on problems regarding the funding of the

20     Yugoslav Army."

21        Q.   And now directing your attention to the second page to the

22     section that I read, and my question was:  What significance, if any,

23     that had for you --

24        A.   Well, there is --

25        Q.   -- in terms of your report, of course?

Page 5012

 1        A.   Well, the significance is that information that is actually

 2     contained within this document corroborates -- well, other documents that

 3     I have seen at the time that I -- I -- I wrote my report.  And they are

 4     discussing the financial situation of the Yugoslav Army at that time, and

 5     it also important to note this that it is stated here that the federal

 6     government discussed it together with the governor of the

 7     National Bank of Yugoslavia.  And that is natural, considering that the

 8     National Bank of Yugoslavia was so instrumental in financing the army at

 9     this point in time.

10        Q.   And now I'd like to move to page 8 of the English which I believe

11     is also page 8 of the B/C/S, and I'm focusing on what's attributed to

12     Radoje Kontic.  I just want the verification that it is Radoje Kontic.

13     And if we could now move to the next page in the English and also the

14     next page in the B/C/S which would now be page 9.  And I'd like to direct

15     your attention to the paragraph that begins "What is going on with the

16     Federation budget?"  At the very end of page 9 in the English.

17             Now it continues:

18             "You know that we do not have any import or export.  Our basic

19     direct revenues are customs and turnover taxes, and yet there are almost

20     no customs, revenues."

21             And it continues.  I'd like to skip down a couple of lines.  And

22     it reads:

23             "Since the turnover is in decline, our revenues are in decline

24     too.  In this way, the federal budget is de facto in the same situation

25     as in the first half of the last year - when it was exclusively financed

Page 5013

 1     from the primary issue."

 2             What significance, if any, does that statement have for your

 3     report?

 4        A.   Well, this statement from Radoje Kontic simply confirms in plain

 5     language what I have stated in my report.  He's saying that they do not

 6     have any original income.  He's pointing then at the lack of custom

 7     revenue.  And he's stating that they exclusively have to rely on primary

 8     issues, again the money coming from the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  And

 9     it's also important to note that he's pointing back in time saying that

10     that was also the same situation in the first half of last year, meaning

11     1992.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time the Prosecution would seek to tender

13     65 ter 1655 which is not part of Mr. Torkildsen's report.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1975.  Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:

17        Q.   Similarly, tab 79 which is next one in your binder is not part of

18     your report.  And it is 65 ter 2125.  I'd also like you to take a look at

19     that.  While we wait for the electronic version, have you reviewed this

20     document before?

21        A.   Yes, I have.

22        Q.   And what is it?

23        A.   Well, it is the final accounts of the federal budget for 1993 and

24     it is -- it was published in the Official Gazette of the Federal Republic

25     of Yugoslavia on 10th March 1995.

Page 5014

 1        Q.   Could you briefly tell us what is the difference between an

 2     account and a budget?

 3        A.   Well, a budget is a plan of income and expenses.  Accounts are

 4     what actually took place.

 5        Q.   And generally speaking, I'll take you to some figures shortly,

 6     what relevance if any did this have for your report?

 7        A.   First -- first of all, I would like to bring to your attention

 8     the -- the -- well, to put it like that, the ridiculous high numbers that

 9     are listed in the accounts.  This was at the time of hyperinflation that

10     had been going on for quite some time, so it's difficult to interpreter

11     the numbers as such.  What is important regarding the numbers here is

12     that you must view them, well, compared to each other, meaning that you

13     must review the different lines, how much in percentage-wise is going to

14     the army, how much is coming from primary emissions and so on.

15             But as we can read here from the first page is that the -- the

16     total generated income in this -- in this annual accounts for 1993 is --

17     is 25.864-something.  I'm not going to even try to spell out the -- the

18     figures because here you can see that it's also listed in millions of

19     dinars, meaning that you can actually put six zeros behind this number.

20     But you see the total income.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  And if we could turn to the next page.

22        Q.   And perhaps I can direct your attention to 09-5 on the -- on the

23     left-hand side of page -- of the second page.

24        A.   Yes.  09-5, that line is describing where the income is coming

25     from.  And it is stated here that -- that 25.552-something is coming from

Page 5015

 1     the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  It says here credits from the

 2     National Bank of Yugoslavia.  That means the primary emissions.  And if

 3     you compared that figure 25.552-something to the total amount on the

 4     first page, which is 25.864, that means that virtually all of the income

 5     in this annual accounts is coming from the National Bank of Yugoslavia.

 6     So the total income side is derived from the printing of money.

 7        Q.   At the bottom of that page and continuing on to page 3, there is

 8     a heading:  "General purpose 02 the Yugoslav Army."  What relevance, if

 9     any, does that section have for your report?

10        A.   Well, it -- it states how the money is spent, and it is stated

11     that 22.588-something is being spent on the Yugoslav Army --

12        Q.   And you --

13        A.   [Overlapping speakers]

14        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Torkildsen, you're reading the "general purpose"

15     double line at the -- almost at the bottom; is that correct?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Please continue.

18        A.   And again, comparing that figure of 22.588 to the total income

19     side of 25.864, out from that I have drawn the conclusion that -- that

20     most of the income in this annual accounts is being spent on the army.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time the Prosecution tenders

22     65 ter 2125 which is not contained in Mr. Torkildsen's report.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1976.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

Page 5016

 1             MS. BIERSAY:

 2        Q.   I'd like to turn to yet another document that's not in our report

 3     and that is tab -- can be found at tab 66.  And it's been previously

 4     admitted as Exhibit P1903.  Have you been able to read -- review this

 5     document?

 6        A.   Yes, I have.

 7        Q.   And what is it?

 8        A.   It is, again, the shorthand notes from one of these sessions of

 9     the Supreme Defence Council.  This one was held on 10th February 1993.

10        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to page 2 which I believe is

11     also B/C/S 2.  Now again we have a list of attendees.  But what I'd like

12     to do is to focus your attention on the agenda item number 3.

13        A.   Yes.  On the agenda is:

14             "Information on problems related to financing of the

15     Yugoslav Army and financing of the assistance to the Republic of

16     Serbian Krajina."

17             I'd just like to mention that I have reviewed quite a big number

18     of minutes from the Supreme Defence Council, and the financing of the

19     Yugoslav Army is often on the agenda of -- in the SDC meetings.

20        Q.   If I may now take you to page 27 of the English, and I think it's

21     B/C/S page 25.  And it's under that heading:

22             "Information about the problems related to the provision of funds

23     for the Yugoslav Army and the provision of financial aid for the Republic

24     of Serbian Krajina."

25             And we have Zivota Panic speaking.  If I could direct your

Page 5017

 1     attention to the -- after the first paragraph.  Could you briefly

 2     summarise what's being discussed here by Panic?

 3        A.   Well, Zivota Panic, at that time, the -- the chief of the VJ,

 4     was -- is pointing at -- well, I can just quote here:

 5             "As for the Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

 6     huge amounts of material means have been sent to these areas."

 7             Further:

 8             "Whatever we send them, we have to refund at our market, no

 9     matter whether it's food, spare parts, ammunition, clothing, et cetera."

10             He's simply here pointing at what the FRY have provided to the RS

11     and the RSK.

12        Q.   Now further down in the third paragraph it reads:

13             "We have sent 700 commanding officers to the Army of the Republic

14     of Serbian Krajina - they are still there, they are volunteers and they

15     have come from those areas.  We have prepared and armed 3.000 volunteers

16     that we have sent to the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

17             What significance, if any, did that section that we have just

18     described have for your report?

19        A.   Well, this is again a section that corroborates what I have

20     written in my report, that the offices of the VRS army and the RS army

21     are being financed from Belgrade.

22        Q.   And now if I may take you to the next page just to see the

23     speaker who continues on page 29, which will be my final focus.  So on

24     page 28 you will see Miodrag Dragojevic who is described on page 2 of

25     this document being the assistant minister of defence for military and

Page 5018

 1     economy sector.  And now if we could move from page 28 to the next page,

 2     being 29.  I'd like to direct your attention to the middle of that page,

 3     specifically the paragraph that begins, "Apart from that ...," and down

 4     to the very bottom of the page.  Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now the -- that sentence:

 7             "Apart from that, we should de facto give 320 billion dinars from

 8     the primary emission from the first quarter --"

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, one moment please.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  I was just wondering if we

11     could get to the proper page in the B/C/S before we proceed forward.  I

12     think it should be a couple of pages further along.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Page 27.  Thank you.  I think maybe one more page

14     in the B/C/S, I think.  Ah, okay, I do see the 320.  I think this is the

15     right page, but I'll be corrected if it's not.

16        Q.   If we're looking at:

17             "Apart from that, we should de facto give 320 billion dinars from

18     the primary emission for the first quarter, which is for the needs of

19     these two army branches ..."

20             What significance, if any, do you attribute to the use of the

21     word "branches"?

22        A.   Well, he's, in my view, referring to the VJ and to the VRS, the

23     Army of Republika Srpska.  What is interesting here is that he's just,

24     well, in my view, referring to two branches of the same army.

25        Q.   And now if we could go to the paragraph at the bottom that

Page 5019

 1     begins, "And on top of this ..."

 2        A.   Yes.  What he's pointing at here is that not only do they have to

 3     cater for the needs of the VJ and the VRS, they also discuss the funding

 4     of the Army of Republika Srpska Krajina.

 5        Q.   Before we leave that page, could we please scroll up to the top

 6     of this B/C/S page.  Now, in the B/C/S this is attributed to

 7     Radoje Kontic; is that correct?  Do you see that on the screen before

 8     you?  You'd have to look at the screen --

 9        A.   Okay.

10        Q.   -- because the B/C/S version isn't -- it's Radoje --

11        A.   Okay.  So this is a statement by Radoje Kontic and not by

12     Miodrag Dragojevic.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  And for that reason, Your Honours, at this time

15     could we please have it MFI'd so we could take the time to correct the

16     translation so the proper speaker is attributed to the section we've just

17     discussed?  So we would -- oh, okay.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             MS. BIERSAY:  So we'll -- so we'll submit a revised -- a motion

20     for substitution, I think --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  -- because it's already admitted.  So we'll leave

23     it as is for now.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

25             Do you see the time, Ms. Biersay.

Page 5020

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  I do indeed, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Mr. Torkildsen, we will take the first

 3     break come back at 11.00.  The Court Usher will escort you out of the

 4     court.  Thank you.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Torkildsen.

11             Yes, Ms. Biersay.  Please proceed.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

13        Q.   I see that you have your glasses.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  If I could now direct your attention to tab 91 which is

16     65 ter 6422, and this is not part of your report.  Have you reviewed this

17     document?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   And what is it?

20        A.   Well, it is one of the shorthand notes and this one from the

21     17th session of the Supreme Defence Council held on 10th January 1994.

22        Q.   Now as usual, we have a list of attendees and directing your

23     attention to the bottom of the page under the agenda, "Discussion of the

24     funding for the Yugoslav Army," and what I'd like to do is go to the next

25     page which I believe is also page 2 in B/C/S.  And at the bottom of

Page 5021

 1     page 2 we see Momcilo Perisic speaking; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if we could flip through pages 3 and 4.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we have the next page in the English, please.

 5     I basically wanted to show that the speakers are remaining the same.  And

 6     if we could go to the next page in the English, settling on page 5 in the

 7     English, which I believe is B/C/S 4.

 8        Q.   Now, there are quite a few pages covering what is being said by

 9     Perisic, but what I'd like to focus on is the last two paragraphs above

10     Slobodan Milosevic.  The first full paragraph reads:

11             "This means that 522 million dollars are needed for the

12     Republika Srpska and 307 million dollars for the Republic of Serbian

13     Krajina ..."

14             And it continues:

15             "... for the Yugoslav army," et cetera.

16             But focusing on that first paragraph, what significance, if any,

17     did it have for your findings in your report?

18        A.   Well, again it corroborates the documents that I have reviewed as

19     the basis for my report.  This -- the amounts being referred to here is

20     what is needed for Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina

21     if the war will continue in 1994.

22        Q.   And in the next paragraph it reads:

23             "... just for comparison:  In the course of the previous year,

24     437 million dollars were approved."

25             What if anything of significance does that have for your report?

Page 5022

 1        A.   Well, the shorthand notes is here pointing back in time to what

 2     happened in 1993 where 437 million dollars were approved.  And the way

 3     that I read this is that it was approved for the needs of the RS and the

 4     RSK during 1993.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we tender 65 ter 6422.

 6             THE WITNESS:  If I can just add one comment to that.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:

 8        Q.   Yes, please.

 9        A.   The figure here of 437 million dollars were approved, this is

10     just a reference to the -- to the financial side of this.  The direct --

11     in monetary terms.  But also the next sentence there, it's pointed out

12     "1.2 billion dollars that were spent from the materiel stockpiles are not

13     taken into account here," so actually that figure comes in addition to

14     the 437 million dollars.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we would tender 65 ter 6422.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1977.  Thank you.

19             MS. BIERSAY:

20        Q.   I'd now like to turn your attention to tab 27 which is previously

21     admitted Exhibit P185, which is referenced at paragraph 97 of your

22     report.  What do you recognise this document to be?

23        A.   Well, it is one of the -- well, first of all, it is one of the

24     documents that I reviewed for my report, and it is a request for funds

25     from the Republic of Serbian Krajina Ministry of Defence to the

Page 5023

 1     Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia, and it is addressed to the

 2     minister Negovanovic.

 3        Q.   What significance, if any, did this have for your report?

 4        A.   Well, as I started with this morning, this is one of the requests

 5     coming from the RSK to the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia

 6     for financial and -- for financial support.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could turn to the next page in the English.

 8     It's just the one page in B/C/S.  And we can scroll down on the B/C/S

 9     page.

10        Q.   And can you see the -- the name of the person signing this

11     document?

12        A.   Colonel Stojan Spanovic, Minister of Defence.

13        Q.   And now turning our attention to tab 35, previously admitted

14     Exhibit P209.140.

15        A.   Sorry, am I able to make one more comment on this previous

16     document?

17        Q.   And you're referring to tab 27?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Yes.  Please do.

20        A.   What I find, well, rather particular about this document is that

21     they are talking about the -- the planned funds.  So this is part of the

22     plan.  It is not a random request.  That is clear from -- from the last

23     paragraph on page -- on page 1.  And also on the -- on the top of page 2.

24        Q.   Which reads -- but we leave --

25        A.   I will -- I will read it out.

Page 5024

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2        A.   "Therefore we ask you to transfer to us the planned funds of

 3     approximately 200 million per month, otherwise it will be impossible to

 4     maintain the whole system we have created.  We know that the financial

 5     difficulties you are facing, but we believe that you will find a way to

 6     provide these funds especially as they are not outside the total planned

 7     quota."

 8        Q.   And the second part of that is on the following page.  Yes.

 9     Thank you.

10             Is there anything else regarding this document that you would

11     like to highlight?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   And now if we could turn to tab 35, again, previously admitted

14     Exhibit 209.140 referenced in your report at paragraph 102.  What do you

15     recognise this document to be?

16        A.   Well, it is a letter from the Republic of Srpska Krajina, the

17     cabinet of the president from -- more specifically from the president of

18     the republic, Mr. Goran Hadzic, and it is addressed to the president of

19     the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Milosevic.

20        Q.   And could you direct us to the portions of this letter that you

21     considered relevant for purposes of your report?

22        A.   Well, when I brought the report, that was a report that was to be

23     in -- in connection with the Milosevic case, and, of course, this is a

24     direct request from the president of the RSK at that time directly to

25     Mr. Milosevic requesting funds or his assistance in -- in acquiring funds

Page 5025

 1     for the use of the RSK.  And in particular in that third paragraph

 2     Mr. Hadzic is pointing out they need help regarding technical maintenance

 3     of weapons and acquisitions of ammunition, et cetera.  And in the last

 4     sentence he's pointing out:

 5             "We are not financially in position to make up for medium and

 6     general service which may be done by the institutions of the

 7     Yugoslav Army."

 8             They are, well, he's simply pointing out the lack of funds they

 9     have themselves.

10        Q.   And if we skip the next paragraph and go to the following one

11     that begins:

12             "Representatives of the SAK Headquarters together with their

13     commandant presented these problems at the last meeting with the

14     General Staff of the Yugoslav Army on 24 May, 1993," what significance if

15     any does that have?

16        A.   Well, the way that I read this is that these problems regarding

17     financing and the need for materiel support has been discussed also

18     previously.

19        Q.   May we now turn to another tab.  Now turning to tab 37 which is

20     65 -- which has been previously admitted as Exhibit P1314.  And what is

21     this document?

22        A.   This is a document -- a letter from the

23     Republic of Serbian Krajina, Ministry of the Interior to the Ministry of

24     the Interior of the Republic of Serbia.  And it concerns the

25     transportation of cash from -- from -- from Belgrade to the RSK; more

Page 5026

 1     specifically, to Knin.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Torkildsen, I'd like to move now from this tab, if

 3     that's okay, to tab 11, which is previously admitted Exhibit P1282,

 4     referenced at paragraphs 25, 33, 92, and 103 of your report.  What do you

 5     recognise this document to be?

 6        A.   This is a document or a letter than from the Republic of Serbia

 7     Ministry of Defence to the government of the Republic of Serbia.  And it

 8     is dated 1st November 1991.  And the subject of this letter is, "Report

 9     on providing assistance to Serbian districts in Croatia."  And it is

10     outlining the financial assistance needed for the -- for the period

11     November and December 1991 regarding the needs of the territorial defence

12     in Krajina SAO, Western Slavonia, and SO Slavonia, Baranja and

13     Western Srem.

14        Q.   And specifically you're referring to the third paragraph on

15     page 1; is that correct?

16        A.   That is correct.  Where it's outlined that the financial

17     assistance that should be provided for November and December 1991 amounts

18     to 1.205 billion dinars at that time.  And that should cover the needs of

19     about 50.000 men of the Territorial Defence at that time.

20        Q.   Now also attached to this are some lists.  I won't ask you to go

21     through them but just to indicate that they are lists relating to

22     specific items; is that correct?

23        A.   That is correct.  These lists are detailing the -- what the

24     financial and material support consists of.

25        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, with your permission, I'd like to move to another

Page 5027

 1     tab; specifically, tab 61 which is not in your report, and it has been

 2     previously admitted as Exhibit P150.  Have you been able to review this

 3     document?

 4        A.   Yes, I have.

 5        Q.   And what is it?

 6        A.   It is a document providing information on the funds provided in

 7     the budget of the republic for the aid to the Serbian areas in Croatia

 8     with the proposal for the solutions of their realisation.  This is --

 9     this is a document corroborating the previous document that we -- that we

10     discussed, the last one.

11        Q.   And now the first sentence reads:

12             "By the Conclusion of the Government of the Republic of

13     Serbia ... and pursuant to the information on Providing aid to the

14     Serbian Areas in Croatia, the funds in the amount of 1.260 million dinars

15     have been appropriated to the Defence Ministry and transferred to the

16     giro account, for position 49 of the Budget of the Republic of Serbia for

17     the year 1991."

18             Now in the next paragraph it references the plans for the

19     mentioned funds for salaries, daily allowance, and other materiel rights

20     for the months of November and December 1991, of about 49.300 members of

21     the Territorial Defence of the SAO Krajina, Western Slavonia, and

22     SO Slavonia, Baranja, Western Srem, in the amount of

23     1.179 million dinars.  And how does this fit into the conclusions of your

24     report?

25        A.   Well, it fits in with the conclusion in my report that -- that

Page 5028

 1     the Ministry of Defence of -- of -- of the Serb republic were providing

 2     financial assistance to the -- to the SAOs in Krajina.  And also for this

 3     documents the figures there when it comes to finance and also the

 4     manpower that the members of the Territorial Defence, et cetera, the

 5     figures are almost the same as in -- in the previous document that we

 6     discussed.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time I'd like to move to tab 8, which is

 8     previously admitted Exhibit P255.253.

 9        Q.   And this is referenced in your report at paragraph 60.  What do

10     you recognise this document to be?

11        A.   It is a decision signed by Mr. Goran Hadzic regarding opening of

12     a bank account for the year -- for the budget of the Serbian region of

13     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

14        Q.   And that is described just under the word "Decision" there.  And

15     could I direct your attention to what's under Roman numeral II.

16        A.   Yes.  It is stated there that the purpose of opening this account

17     is to finance the Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

18     and territories not included in the municipalities an account should be

19     open under the name budget of Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and

20     Western Srem.

21        Q.   That's under --

22        A.   Sorry, that was under I --

23        Q.   Roman numeral I.  And now the Roman numeral II.

24        A.   It is written here:

25             "Budgetary revenues of Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and

Page 5029

 1     Western Srem will be formed in accordance with current legal regulations

 2     of the FRY, Republic of Serbia, and Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja,

 3     and Western Srem, whereas disbursements will be made via municipalities

 4     of Beli Manastir administration."

 5        Q.   And this is -- at the end it says:

 6             "In Dalj, 21 September 1991"; correct?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   And now if I could direct your attention to tab 56 which is not

 9     in your report, and it's 65 ter 311.  Have you been able to review this

10     document?

11        A.   Yes, I have.  Again, this is document is -- is a decision signed

12     by Mr. Goran Hadzic and it concerns who has got the signatory rights on

13     that -- that account that we discussed in the previous document.

14        Q.   And five people are listed under article 1; is that correct?

15        A.   Six --

16        Q.   Excuse me, six people.

17        A.   -- people.

18        Q.   And there is Mr. Goran Hadzic; correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And number two, Bogdan Vojnovic, Jovan Pejakovic,

21     Vitomir Devetak, Boro Milinkovic, and Vojin Susa; correct?

22        A.   That is correct, yes.

23        Q.   And what is the significance of Article 2?

24        A.   Well, it is just that in order to make transfers you need two

25     signatories, and it is not just one person that can sign on his own.

Page 5030

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, Your Honours, the Prosecution would

 2     seek to tender 65 ter 311.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1978.  Thank you.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:

 6        Q.   If I could now direct your attention to tab 9, which is

 7     previously admitted Exhibit P256.253, and this is referenced in your

 8     report at paragraph 59.  What is this document that we're looking at?

 9        A.   It is a document from the -- from the Socialist Federal Republic

10     of Yugoslavia, Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

11     addressed to the public auditing service of Vojvodina.  Again, as I

12     pointed out earlier today, the public auditing service is the same as the

13     SDK, the vehicle or the transfer mechanism that was used in order to

14     transfer funds from one place to another.  And it is a request for a

15     opening a giro account regarding the budget of Serbian region of

16     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  This document should be read and

17     interpreted together with the two previous documents that we have looked

18     at, the signatory rights and -- and -- and the opening of the account

19     document.

20        Q.   Now I have two more documents I'd like to show you.  Neither one

21     of them is in your report.  And I estimate that will take about five to

22     seven minutes.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  If I could now direct your attention to tab 71,

24     which is 65 ter 1581.

25        Q.   Have you been able to review this document?

Page 5031

 1        A.   Yes, I have.

 2        Q.   And what is it?

 3        A.   Well, the -- this document was published in the Official Gazette

 4     of the RSK on the 20th of May, 1992, and it is a decision on the budget

 5     of the Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem for the

 6     year 1992.  So again pointing back at this is a budget, a plan for income

 7     and expenditure in 1992.

 8        Q.   I'd like to turn your attention to page 3 in the English which I

 9     believe is the B/C/S page 2.  And I would like to go straight to the line

10     that reads 780 on the left-hand side and it's listed under 1 for revenues

11     beginning on page 2 and it continues on this page 3.  Could you describe

12     for us what we see at that block attributed to 780?

13        A.   Yes.  At the bottom they are summing up.  We can see that the

14     total revenues/the total income side of this budget adds up to

15     877.2 million dinars approximately at that time.  And if we look at

16     the -- the more detailed income side of this budget, we do see that what

17     I have described to you earlier today, that the original revenues/income

18     like sales tax and -- excuse me, other kind of taxes.  They are virtually

19     nothing compared to what is listed under line 780 where it is listed

20     "Additional funds of the Federation" in the size of 821.7 million dinars.

21     And "additional funds of the Federation," that means money coming from

22     the FRY.  And again, that means primary emissions originating from the

23     National Bank of Yugoslavia in Belgrade.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time, Your Honours, the Prosecution

25     would seek to tender 65 ter 1581.

Page 5032

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1979.  Thank you.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:

 4        Q.   And for the final exhibit that I'll show you, if we could move to

 5     tab 73 which is 65 ter 1605.  Do you -- have you had an opportunity to

 6     review this document?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.

 8        Q.   And what is it?

 9        A.   It is a decision on allocation of funds for financing the

10     Republic of Serbian Krajina in the period January to June 1993, and it

11     was published in the Official Gazette of the RSK on 20th April, 1993.

12     Again, this is a budget, a plan showing the income and expenditure -- the

13     planned income and expenditure for the RSK in this period.

14        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention, if I may, to page 4 of the

15     English.  I believe it's page 2 in the B/C/S.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  We may have to --

17        Q.   And on this page that we're now looking at, could you tell us

18     what categories of data are relevant to your report and findings?

19        A.   Well, what is relevant here again is the source of the income and

20     the total -- total revenue.  If we go to the bottom of this page we can

21     see that the total revenue, meaning then the total income in this budget,

22     adds up to 303.8-something.  And we can see the income side being more

23     detailed out.  We can read on the line 781, it is stated "credits."  It

24     is there stated an amount of 2.231 going further on.  And that amount,

25     approximately, adds up to about two-thirds of the income side of this

Page 5033

 1     budget.  And, again, bringing to your attention, "credits" in this

 2     respect means money coming from the National Bank of Yugoslavia.  The

 3     primary emissions.

 4        Q.   So --

 5        A.   And it is also further stated here that under line 780 that that

 6     money is also provided directly by the FRY in the size of 609.

 7        Q.   609-something --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   -- is that what you mean when you pause?  Okay.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time the Prosecution would seek to

11     tender 65 ter 1605.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1980.  Thank you.

14             MS. BIERSAY:

15        Q.   If we could refer back to that exhibit which has now been

16     admitted as P1980, Mr. Torkildsen, did you have an additional comment to

17     make?

18        A.   Yeah.  I would like to go to the expenditure side of this budget,

19     what they are planning to use the money on.

20        Q.   And on what page are you?

21        A.   I would be on page 6 of the translation, at the -- at the top of

22     that page.

23        Q.   And this would be B/C/S number 3.  Are you --

24        A.   Yeah.  I would just like to highlight that a large part of the

25     expenditure is going for the army.


Page 5034

 1        Q.   And you're taking that from where it says at 420?

 2        A.   420.

 3        Q.   At the -- the very first one.

 4        A.   Yes.  Approximately two-thirds of the budget, the income in the

 5     budget is going for the army.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Torkildsen, you are aware that in this case

 7     we will tender your report but we will not be relying on paragraphs 23 or

 8     paragraphs 79 to 83.  And this was also done in the Milosevic and Perisic

 9     case.  Do you understand that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And does the exclusion of those paragraphs impair your report in

12     any way?

13        A.   No.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  And, Your Honour, we would now tender the report

15     with the exhibits, but I understand that the protocol will be that we

16     will submit a written motion in this regard.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed, Ms. Biersay.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time I have no further questions.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Thank

22     you.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Torkildsen.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 5035

 1        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell.  I represent Mr. Hadzic in these

 2     proceedings.  I am going to have a few questions for you, not too many.

 3     If any of them are not clear, please feel free to ask me for

 4     clarification and I'll do my best.

 5             How would you characterise your expertise as reflected in your

 6     report?  What is the domain of your expertise?

 7        A.   Well, the domain of my expertise is that of a financial

 8     investigator with two business degrees.  I know a lot about finance,

 9     having worked on financial issues for -- for 20 years plus.

10        Q.   And what is the difference between being a financial investigator

11     and a forensic accountant, if anything?

12        A.   Well, I think that the main -- I work together with a lot of

13     accountants in my -- in my current position, and I think the main

14     difference is that financial investigators tend to get -- to get more

15     into -- to depth regarding the issues that they are reviewing.  At least

16     certain aspects.

17        Q.   Well, I notice from your CV that you're not an accountant; is

18     that correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   And do you think that that in any way impairs your ability to

21     conduct the analysis that's contained in your report or you don't think

22     that that does impair your ability to do that?

23        A.   I don't think that impair my ability at all.

24        Q.   And do you speak B/C/S?

25        A.   No.

Page 5036

 1        Q.   Do you read B/C/S?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   As you were going through some of the documents that are

 4     footnoted in your report, and we'll look at some of them now, did you

 5     diligently ask for assistance from those who were able to speak B/C/S

 6     about stamps that appeared on some of the documents?

 7        A.   I -- I did -- well, during all my reviews, I asked in general for

 8     assistance from the language assistants of the -- of the OTP regarding

 9     whether it was stamps or -- or other parts of the document.  I cannot

10     only reply in general terms that I asked them about all kinds of details.

11     I can't now - well, ten years ago - remember exactly what I asked them

12     about, what parts of the documents.

13        Q.   As you were looking at these documents, and I -- in part it seems

14     to be suggested by your answer, were you looking closely at the form of

15     the documents to determine in the first case authenticity but in the

16     second case also the provenance of the documents, who exactly is

17     responsible for issuing some of these documents?

18        A.   No, did I not try to authenticate the documents.  Again, back to

19     your question regarding the stamps and so on, I did not consider whether

20     the documents were genuine, to put it like that.

21        Q.   So you simply assumed that the documents that you were given are

22     genuine?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   And what about the second part of my question, did you analyse

25     the stamps in order to verify or ascertain the provenance; in other

Page 5037

 1     words, the exact issuing institution or person or body in respect of the

 2     documents?

 3        A.   No, I did not.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 65 ter 311, please, which is

 5     Prosecution tab 56.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, you were just a few moments ago shown this document.

 7     And this is now P1978.  And this is the decision on appointing of

 8     signatories of the direct transfer account of the Serbian region of SBWS.

 9     And you've described it.  I won't take you back through the answers

10     you've already given.  But is it the implication of Article 2 that any

11     two of the signatories are authorised to authorise transfers from that

12     account?

13        A.   That is my understanding of this document, yes.

14        Q.   So that means transfers could be authorised without

15     Goran Hadzic's approval or signature; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P255.253, please.  That's Prosecution

18     tab 8 for the record.

19        Q.   Now, if you look at the B/C/S version, Mr. Torkildsen --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- you'll see there is a very, very faint stamp.  We can't read

22     it and I won't ask you any questions about it.  But let me just ask you

23     this:  Do you remember seeing Goran Hadzic's signature on any document

24     related to financial affairs after the this date, the

25     21st of September, 1991?

Page 5038

 1        A.   That I -- I simply can't remember.  I reviewed many documents.

 2        Q.   And if we could look at Article II, it talks about revenues being

 3     formed in accordance with the current legal regulations of the FRY,

 4     Republic of Serbia, and Serbian region of SBWS, whereas disbursements

 5     will be made via municipality of Beli Manastir administration.  Can you

 6     explain why that is going on?  Do you know anything about that?

 7        A.   No.  No, I don't know.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we have P215.140, please, which is Prosecution

 9     tab 5 -- oh, I have the wrong tab number, but it is a Prosecution tab if

10     I'm not mistaken.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please repeat the exhibit

12     number, thank you.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, it is P215.140, which is 65 ter 5135.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, this is P215.140.  Thank you.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Torkildsen, I just want to ask you a very general

17     question about this document.  You're familiar with it.  Can you tell us

18     in lay terms what is occurring in this document?

19        A.   Well, it is a document regarding the -- the expenses of the -- of

20     the Territorial Defence training centre in -- in Erdut, and it is -- it

21     is stated here the -- the -- the amounts it concern.  It is stated here:

22             "During a review of expenses specified as the expenditures of the

23     Territorial Defence Special Training Centre, we found out that according

24     to your breakdown the total expenses for December were as follows:"  And

25     the numbers are given here.

Page 5039

 1             And it is further stated:

 2             "Two factors participated in spending the amount of 3" --

 3     "approximately 3.5 million dinars, the government and its ministries, and

 4     the special training centre of the Territorial Defence ... we maintain

 5     that the expenses of these two factors must be separated, which is what

 6     we did for December 1991."

 7             And then they are -- well, they are dividing these two factors as

 8     specified.  And it says here that the amount for the special training

 9     centre in Erdut is an amount of 1.116.000-something dinars for the

10     training centre.  And:

11             "We therefore kindly request from you that in the future our

12     expenses be specified separately ..."

13             And it's signed by Raznatovic.

14        Q.   Well, Mr. Torkildsen, that is what the document says.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I was hoping for your assistance in respect of your expertise,

17     and I'll just ask you whether you agree with me that this appears to be a

18     signatory, Arkan, complaining about being, apparently, in his view,

19     overcharged by the DP -- the DP Dalj farm for whatever services or goods

20     he's been provided.  Is that what's in essence happening in this letter?

21        A.   Well, that -- that is your interpretation of -- of this document.

22     What is stated here, that -- that these two factors must be -- must be

23     separated, but whether it's -- can be viewed as a complaint from Arkan, I

24     don't know.

25        Q.   Let's leave out the word "complaint."  He is suggesting to the

Page 5040

 1     DP Dalj farm that he has been charged too much and that he wishes to pay

 2     less.  Is that what it amounts to?

 3        A.   Well, at least it amounts to that -- to say that he wants -- that

 4     his expenditures to be -- to be specified.

 5        Q.   And reduced relative to what he's been charged; isn't that right?

 6        A.   Well, if it is -- if it is correct, as I take from your question,

 7     that he's been charged the whole amount and not only the amount that --

 8     that belongs to -- to his side of this -- you are correct.  Yes.

 9        Q.   Well, we don't have all of the underlying documents as you know,

10     so I'm not asking you this question to -- to have you verify whether or

11     not he was or was not overcharged.  All I want to verify with you is

12     would you agree with me that this is a letter in which Arkan is saying:

13     "I have been charged in excess of what I should have been charged, and

14     here is the amount that I believe I should be charged"?

15        A.   At least that's one -- one -- one theory you can lead out from

16     this document.  Whether that -- that is actually the background, I don't

17     know.

18        Q.   Well, am I not -- am I misreading the document in any some way or

19     is my reading accurate?

20        A.   What I'm saying here is that it is stated that -- that -- that he

21     wants a separation of these two figures into one concerning the training

22     centre in Erdut and the other part of the total amount should specify

23     what is going to the government and the ministries.

24        Q.   And there is a difference between those two numbers and the

25     number that he is proposing is less than what he's been charged.  Can you

Page 5041

 1     agree with me that that is what the document reflects?

 2        A.   I can agree with you that the amount going for the training

 3     centre is less than the total amount.

 4        Q.   Well, that wasn't my question.  My question was:  Can you agree

 5     with me that Arkan is saying that the amount that he should be paying is

 6     less than what he believes he has been charged?

 7        A.   Well, I can't agree with you on that.

 8        Q.   Well, if we look at the letter it says there were two factors

 9     that participated in spending the amount of 3.4 million and some odd

10     dinars, and he characterises that as your breakdown of the total expenses

11     for December.  Now, if he's referring to "your breakdown," doesn't that

12     suggest to you that he's referring to an invoice he has received and that

13     that's what he's being charged by DP Dalj?

14        A.   Well, it can be interpreted like that and it can be also

15     suggested that that was the case, but I haven't seen the -- the --

16     underlying invoice showing that.

17        Q.   Again, that's a reasonable interpretation; correct?  It's not a

18     far-flung or biased or crazy interpretation; correct?

19        A.   Well, it is a reasonable suggestion.  Yes.

20        Q.   And what he's suggesting there is that the actual amount that he

21     should pay, if you look down there where it says special training centre

22     is 1.1 million dinars.  That is right, isn't it?

23        A.   That is correct, yes.

24        Q.   So he's talking about -- he's asking for a reduction of about

25     2.5 -- almost 2.5 million dinars in this letter; right?

Page 5042

 1        A.   Yes, if it is correct that he has originally received an invoice

 2     for the total amount.  But, again, I haven't seen that invoice, so ...

 3        Q.   Can you think of any reason if Arkan is being funded by the

 4     district government of the SBWS, if all of his expenses were being paid

 5     by the district government, why would he write this letter complaining

 6     about being overcharged?

 7        A.   Well, I -- I see no reason for why he should write such a letter

 8     if -- well, that -- well, considering if he has already received an

 9     invoice for the total amount.  Personally, I would also have complained

10     about an invoice of -- of whatever that did not concern me.

11        Q.   And you would complaint about that if the money was coming out of

12     your own pocket or out of your account; isn't that right?

13        A.   Naturally, yes.

14        Q.   And so from that would you infer from the basis of this letter

15     that Arkan is somehow paying his own expenses at least as of the date of

16     this letter, which is the 17th of January, 1992?

17        A.   I'd thought in your previous question or -- or argument that you

18     were saying that it was the year -- that it was the government of the SAO

19     that paid for his expenses.

20        Q.   Well, sir, that certainly wasn't my argument or suggestion.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I see you looking at the clock and I

22     know we need to finish at 12.00.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But if you move to another topic, this would be a

24     good moment, but if you still have questions about this --

25             MR. GOSNELL:  No, I haven't exhausted this one, Mr. President.

Page 5043

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You have not?

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  No.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:

 5        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, I am not suggesting in any way that the

 6     government is paying his expenses as of this date.  In fact, I'm

 7     suggesting the opposite.  That he is complaining -- his complaint

 8     suggests that at this point he is not being funded at this point by the

 9     government.  Do you understand the proposition I am putting to you?

10        A.   Yeah.  You are putting the proposition that -- that the

11     government is not paying for Arkan's activities in Erdut at -- at that

12     time.

13        Q.   And the basis for that is that he's complaining about his

14     expenses, and I'm putting to you that doesn't this indicate and suggest

15     to you, as you just said that you would complain if you are being

16     overcharged, you would complain because the money is coming out of your

17     pocket; isn't that right?

18        A.   Yeah, I agreed on that, but I mean it's difficult to me to be

19     sort of further specific about this without having access to all the

20     underlying details there in terms of invoices and so on.

21        Q.   I understand that.  But this document is indicative of that, is

22     it not?

23        A.   It's an indication, yes.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we can leave it there.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

Page 5044

 1             Mr. Torkildsen, we take the second break a little bit earlier

 2     than what we do usually.  We'll come back at 12.30.  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, I was asking you before the break about

11     inferences and I was sorry to have to ask you about inferences, but the

12     reason I did ask you about inferences is because at paragraph 103 to 104

13     of your report, what you say about this document is that this document -

14     which is still on the screen in front of us - is indicative that the

15     district government of the SBWS was supporting Arkan.  That's what you

16     say in your report.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now that we've -- now we've -- now -- I'll give you a chance to

19     answer.  But now, we have taken a very close look at this document,

20     wouldn't you agree with me that it seems to suggest the opposite?

21        A.   My basic understanding of this is that you have the Dalj company

22     paying for the expenses of the Arkan training centre in Erdut and then

23     you have the Dalj company again being reimbursed by the SAO government.

24     That was my understanding of this.

25        Q.   And we're going to come to two later documents that I think are

Page 5045

 1     the foundation for that view, and that's expressed in paragraphs 105

 2     and -6 of your report and we'll get there.  But just for the time being I

 3     want us to focus on the assertion that you make at 103 and 104 because at

 4     paragraph 104 you say "for instance," and then you cite this document,

 5     and you suggest that it shows that this document shows that the district

 6     government is supporting Arkan.  It doesn't show that, does it?  In this

 7     document it doesn't show that.

 8        A.   Well, back again to this document.  This document again basically

 9     shows that the expenses should be divided into two, the training centre

10     in Erdut and the proportion going or covering the expenses of the

11     government and the -- and the ministries.

12        Q.   All right.  That's -- that's fine.  We -- obviously that

13     interpretation is -- that may or may not be true.  As you say we don't

14     have the underlying documents.  But the point being if indeed Arkan is

15     being supported by DP Dalj, as you suggest in your report --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   -- it does seem a bit strange he'd be complaining about being

18     overcharged; right?

19        A.   Well, again it can be as simple that he, Arkan, just want to

20     pin-point that, that is the proportion of the expenses that actually

21     is -- is -- is dedicated to the activities of the training centre.  But

22     the other part is the proportion of the expenses that relates to the

23     government and the ministries.  It's the same thing.  If I can just give

24     an example.  It would be the same thing if I, for business purposes,

25     went -- went travelling abroad and I covered all the expenses from

Page 5046

 1     that -- that travel, that I had two colleagues with me and I covered

 2     their expenses as well.  And then when he came home to the office to have

 3     my expenses reimbursed and I would also like to sort of specify that

 4     these were not only the expenses of myself but they were also the

 5     expenses of two of my colleagues.

 6        Q.   But if the two colleagues were paying your expenses, you wouldn't

 7     care, would you?

 8        A.   Well, that is -- well, if I wouldn't care that is the difference.

 9     But at least I would have like to have it specified that these were not

10     only the expenses for my own costs but also for my two colleagues.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P216.140, please, which is

12     Prosecution tab 51.

13        Q.   Now, sir, I'll suggest to you that this -- this is the first

14     invoice from the DP Dalj which in any way suggests that the district

15     government of the SBWS is supposed to pay for the expenses of the

16     training centre.  Now, do you disagree with that?  I mean -- or am I

17     correct?

18        A.   I agree with that, yes.

19        Q.   And incidentally, the numbers just to relate this to the previous

20     document, the invoice ends up being just a little bit lower than what

21     Arkan is complaining about in the previous document; namely, he wants to

22     pay 1.1 million dinars and now we have just over 1 million dinars.  Do

23     you remember that those two -- two numbers appear to at least be somewhat

24     related?

25        A.   Yeah.  I can see that the amounts are approximately the same,

Page 5047

 1     yes.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05133, which is Prosecution tab 49.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  This is confidential Exhibit P214.140.

 4     Thank you.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Torkildsen, we -- we were just looking at the invoice --

 7     and perhaps we can even back up before that.  We have Arkan's letter on

 8     the 17th of January, then we have the invoice of the 22nd of January, and

 9     now we have this document from good -- excuse me, Mr. Milanovic, and

10     you'll notice that there is no date on this document; is that right?

11        A.   That -- that is correct.  At least I can't see a date now.

12        Q.   And there is no addressee.

13        A.   There is no addressee.  I mean, it -- it is a document by the --

14     by the Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Just

15     commenting on you saying that there is no date on this document.  That is

16     correct.  But there is actually a number on the -- on the top of this

17     document on the left-hand side, where it is referred to number 01-73/92

18     and to me that indicates that this is a document from 1992.

19        Q.   But we can't specify the date beyond that?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And the stamp there -- now, I -- unfortunately it's not

22     translated, but I'll just put it to you that that stamp says, "SO SBWS

23     Ministry of Defence, Vukovar."  Anything in your experience of looking at

24     documents amiss or unusual about an approval being made by the

25     Ministry of Defence for payments?

Page 5048

 1        A.   Um --

 2        Q.   Well, let me new it to you specifically:  Do you think that this

 3     kind of payment is one that should go through the Ministry of Finance and

 4     be approved by the Ministry of Finance, or do you think it's enough that

 5     the Ministry of Defence and the minister or the assistant minister of

 6     defence approves an expenditure of this kind?

 7        A.   I can't really answer that question.  I wouldn't know on a

 8     detailed level who's got the -- who is able to sign off for this expense.

 9        Q.   And I realise from one of your first answers you weren't checking

10     these documents for authenticity, and we don't check -- we don't suggest

11     that this document is a fake, but when you look at the form of the

12     document now in relation to other documents that you've seen, in terms of

13     the sums of money that are potentially involved, do you think that there

14     is something amiss in the form of the document?

15        A.   I'm -- I'm sorry, I really don't have any opinion on this.

16        Q.   Well, the absence of a date, the absence of an addressee, the

17     absent of the involvement of the Ministry of Finance, the absence of

18     approval by Goran Hadzic at least in relation to this document.  Do any

19     of those things seem out of order in relation to other similar documents

20     that you've reviewed?

21        A.   Well, I do agree with you that it is a bit odd that the document

22     do not contain a date, at least.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we have P149, please, which is Prosecution

24     tab 57.

25        Q.   Now this document is not referred to in your report, but it is

Page 5049

 1     one of the additional documents that you have looked at.  And -- well,

 2     first of all, let me just ask you:  Looking at that front page, do you

 3     remember the document in its entirety?  Can you recall what that document

 4     looks like?

 5        A.   No, I don't.  It was more than ten years ago since I reviewed

 6     these documents.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, in that case we're going to have to do a bit of a

 8     page turning exercise I'm afraid.  This first page appears to be some

 9     handwritten notes.

10        A.   Okay.

11        Q.   And we see that there is a signature there on the front which has

12     otherwise been authenticated before this Trial Chamber as Mr. Milanovic's

13     signature.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Now if we can turn the page, please, and go to

15     page 2.

16        Q.   We see an invoice for something called -- identified as

17     ski trousers.  And the account number is to a military post, BR-5530-50.

18     Does that in any way ring a bell, that number, that identification?

19        A.   Specifically which number are you pointing at?

20        Q.   Sorry, it's -- you see in the left-hand box there at the top

21     under account number 249?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And there is a reference to a military post, BR-5530-50?

24        A.   No, I do not relate that to anything specific, no.

25        Q.   In your work as a financial investigator with the

Page 5050

 1     Office of the Prosecutor, have you ever examined JNA or SSNO accounts?

 2        A.   Not -- not that I would call regular accounts in terms of if you

 3     are referring to bank statements or -- or accounts at a detailed level.

 4     The accounts that I had access to are typically the -- the accounts and

 5     the budgets that -- that we had examples of earlier today.  It -- it was

 6     never at such a detailed level.

 7        Q.   I didn't mean to limit my question so specifically.  Have you in

 8     your work in general examined how the JNA or the SSNO or other federal

 9     military agencies engaged in expenditures?

10        A.   Well, just at the aggregate level and not at the detailed level,

11     because I never had access to the detailed accounts of the JNA, for

12     instance.

13        Q.   Okay.  We can turn through the next one, two, three, four,

14     five -- six pages.  And those are all in similar form.  They appear to be

15     invoices from this company called "Working Women," and there are various

16     accounts listed there in addition to the military post we just referred

17     to.  There is the Tenje TO, one is blank, and there is one that says SAO

18     SBWS government bureau Belgrade.  And then we get to this last or this --

19             MR. GOSNELL:  If we can go to the third last page, please.  Yeah,

20     sorry, I'm sorry.  I'm looking for the third last page which should be

21     page 8.  That's it.  Thank you very much.

22        Q.   Now this social bookkeeping service slip, is that the SDK that

23     you refer to in your report?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is that -- is that some kind of a record of a payment out of the

Page 5051

 1     account?

 2        A.   It seems like that, that this is a record of a payment, yes.

 3        Q.   Well, have you seen other similar slips in the course of your

 4     investigations?

 5        A.   Again, I'm -- well, most likely, but I'm -- I just can't remember

 6     details about that.

 7        Q.   Well, did you conduct any investigations at all at the SDK or did

 8     you receive -- let me put it a different way:  Did you receive documents

 9     from the SDK as part of your work --

10        A.   No, I did not have access to the detailed accounts of the SDK,

11     no.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could please go to the next page of the

14     document.  It appears to be a summary of the foregoing receipts.  We

15     won't linger over this.  If we could just turn the page, please, to the

16     last page.

17        Q.   Now, I know you don't read B/C/S but I put it to you that that

18     stamp there is from the Ministry of Finance of the district government of

19     the SBWS, and what you have there is a typewritten indication of

20     Goran Hadzic's name but he hasn't signed it.  Would you agree that

21     that -- and also on the top there on the right-hand side it says Ministry

22     of Finance of the Serb region of SBWS.  Would you agree with me that what

23     appears to be happening here is that the Ministry of Finance is preparing

24     this authorisation form for Mr. Hadzic's signature, he hasn't signed it,

25     but this is part of the process of paying the foregoing invoices that

Page 5052

 1     we've seen in previous pages?

 2        A.   Well, your question seems logical to me.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to how these pages were bundled

 4     together into a single document?  That's how we've received them, and I

 5     am wondering whether you have any knowledge as to how this was bundled

 6     together?

 7        A.   No, I don't.  As I said earlier today, I only reviewed the

 8     documents that were already collected by -- by others and entered into

 9     the evidence system of the Office of the Prosecutor.

10        Q.   And now that you've looked at this document and the -- the amount

11     is 772.000 dinars, does it strike you as even more anomalous, the

12     previous document, signed by Mr. Milanovic with no date, no addressee,

13     and no authorisation from the Ministry of Finance?

14        A.   Well, I do agree you that -- that -- that normally documents like

15     this should have a date on it.

16        Q.   And judging by --

17        A.   Whether this is just a draft that was not finalised, I wouldn't

18     know.

19        Q.   Well, sir, just to be clear about the point I'm making to you.  I

20     mean, here we have an authorisation for 772.000 dinars, a few invoices

21     from a clothing company, apparently, and the Ministry of Finance,

22     apparently, has drafted this authorisation letter for Mr. Hadzic's

23     signature.  The previous document, the one signed by Mr. Milanovic, there

24     is no date, there is no letter by the Ministry of Finance, there is no

25     addressee, there is no authorisation from Mr. Hadzic.  When you compare

Page 5053

 1     these two documents, wouldn't you agree that the Milanovic document

 2     appears anomalous in terms of the procedure for authorising payments?

 3        A.   Well, authorising payments should have had the signatures and

 4     dates on it.  That would be -- that would be normal, yes.  But what was

 5     normal in that region at the time, I wouldn't know.

 6        Q.   Well, this document indicates what the normal procedure, doesn't

 7     it?

 8        A.   Yeah, unless this is a draft and the -- and date would have been

 9     put into the final document and the final document would have a signature

10     as well.

11        Q.   Well, I hate to belabour this.  I don't have any problem with

12     there being no date on this --

13        A.   Okay.

14        Q.   On this last page.  All I'm suggesting is that someone has gone

15     to the trouble, even for the some of 772.000 dinars, someone from the

16     Ministry of Finance has gone to the trouble of drafting an authorisation

17     letter for Mr. Hadzic.  No such letter is appended to Mr. Milanovic's

18     letter which presumably would involve a larger sum; isn't that right?

19        A.   Could be.  I wouldn't know.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 01017, please, Prosecution tab 19.

21        Q.   This is a document, sir, that is mentioned in your report.  I

22     believe we may have discussed earlier today.

23        A.   Yup.

24        Q.   You see it's from the SSNO logistics assistant who is a

25     General-Colonel Vladan Sljivic and it's dated the 7th of April, 1992, and

Page 5054

 1     he's sending this document to the commanders of the 1st and 2nd Military

 2     Area as well as the RSK Main Staff in Knin.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Now could we please turn the page in English and go

 4     to item 6.

 5        Q.   "All the expenses of unit preparations and relocation are to be

 6     included into one-year plan for financing of the units.  In accordance

 7     with the schematics for logistics bases and reliance of the

 8     Territorial Defence units on logistic bases of the military zone,

 9     development planning and finance management will ensure that the

10     financial needs of the TO units on the territory of RS Krajina are

11     covered."

12             Do you have any knowledge about these one-year plans for

13     financing the units?  Did you ever look into whether or not the SSNO or

14     JNA were preparing such plans?

15        A.   As I stated earlier today, I don't have -- I never seen the --

16     the detailed planning of this.  We have had examples from the documents

17     earlier today when they were referring to a planned quota, et cetera, and

18     so on, but I never seen the detailed planning behind this.

19        Q.   Do you have any knowledge from any source at all in the course of

20     your work with the Office of the Prosecutor that the SSNO or the JNA or

21     for that matter the Republic of Serbia, Ministry of Defence, which isn't

22     covered by this document, just to be clear, but from any of those sources

23     have you seen any indication that any of those entities were providing

24     direct support to TO units in Croatia?

25        A.   Well, again, yes -- yes, we do have in terms of the requests

Page 5055

 1     from -- from the RSK or the SAO that were going to the Serbian Ministry

 2     of Defence and the -- and outcome of that.  Again, that was discussed in

 3     the -- in the exhibits that we looked at -- at earlier today.  But again,

 4     as I've said, I never had access to the -- to the detailed accounts of

 5     the JNA, the RSK, or the SAO at a very detailed level.  It was just at

 6     the aggregate level.

 7        Q.   My question was whether or not there was direct support to TO

 8     units in Croatia; in other words, not through the district governments.

 9     Because as I read this document, there appears to be an implication that

10     the SSNO has somehow prepared plans for financial support for TO units.

11     And so that's what I was wondering about when I asked that question,

12     whether you saw any evidence that there was direct support to TO units in

13     Croatia.

14        A.   Well, one of the documents involving the Serbian Ministry of

15     Defence that we looked at this morning suggests that there were direct

16     financial assistance from the Republic of Serbia to the TO Defence.  That

17     is correct.  Yes.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 06155, please, which is P1975.  And

19     that's Prosecution tab 75.

20        Q.   Sir, these are the shorthand notes of the Supreme Defence Council

21     dated the 2nd of June, 1993.  You looked at this document earlier today.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could turn to page 12, please, in the

23     English.  And in the B/C/S it's under item 12.

24        Q.   And about halfway down the page, this is Zivota Panic speaking.

25     And he says:

Page 5056

 1             "As to the army, we have had the livestock farms, the farms, we

 2     were involved in public labour before, and we still have it.  If this had

 3     not been the case, the pressure on the Government regarding the money

 4     would have been much bigger than it is now.  We used to have a large

 5     income.  But now no one is demanding such labour, because they do not

 6     have the money and they cannot pay for it."

 7             It seems as if the JNA is involved in agra business.  Do you know

 8     anything about the JNA being involved in commercial enterprises or

 9     co-operative enterprise or any commercial activity?

10        A.   That's -- that's a difficult question for me -- for me to answer.

11     I have reviewed thousands of pages of documents, but I can't remember the

12     details regarding this, so it's difficult for me to answer.

13        Q.   That's fair enough, sir.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have L35, please.  Yeah, that's

15     Prosecution tab 60 for the record.

16        Q.   Now, this is the -- or purports to be the budget of the Serb

17     region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem for the year 1991.  And it

18     appears to have been adopted by the Assembly on the

19     8th of November, 1991.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  And if we can just turn the page.

21        Q.   And first of all, I should ask you:  Do you recall this document

22     from your preparation for today?

23        A.   Yes, I've reviewed this document.  Yes.

24        Q.   And how would you rate it from the point of view of being a

25     budget that actually reflects professional preparation?  Is it -- is it a

Page 5057

 1     professional document or would you say it's a bunch of numbers that have

 2     been more or less arbitrarily slapped on paper by someone?

 3        A.   No, it seems to be a professional budget.  What -- what is

 4     different from -- from this budget compared to other budgets is that this

 5     was early in time, meaning 1991 where the financing through -- through

 6     primary issues had to a large extent had just started.  So we will see

 7     from this budget that you do have a -- also a lot of -- what I determine

 8     to be original income in this budget, like -- like taxes, VAT, et cetera.

 9        Q.   Is it normal that a budget would be produced in the

10     second-to-last month of that year?

11        A.   That is not normal under normal circumstances, but these

12     circumstances in that region at that time were not normal.

13        Q.   Okay.  Based on your knowledge of the situation and the documents

14     you've seen, do you think it's a remotely accurate number to say that

15     16.000 million dinars of sales tax was collected in 1991 by the district

16     government?

17        A.   Yeah, simply, I don't know.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P208.140, please.

19        Q.   Other than your work here at the Tribunal, have you any

20     experience at all in dealing with financial investigations into transfers

21     between states?  Financial transfers between states.

22        A.   Yes, yes, I do.  Most of the -- well, not most, but many of the

23     big financial investigations I've been doing has been about money

24     crossing borders, so I do.

25        Q.   And does that include examining documents written at the highest

Page 5058

 1     level by state leaders, state leadership, ministers, and so forth.

 2        A.   No, it has very much been work at the much more detailed and

 3     lower level in terms of bank transactions going from bank A in country to

 4     bank B in another country.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Then I'll pose my next question and ask you to rely on

 6     your experience from the Tribunal.  This is a letter written by

 7     Minister Milan Martic directly, apparently, to Mr. Milosevic.  Is it

 8     normal that a letter about financial affairs is being sent directly by a

 9     minister to the president of another country?

10        A.   Whether that is normal or not, I -- I wouldn't know.  I guess

11     this depends on the -- on, well, most likely whatever personal

12     relationship it was between Mr. Martic and Mr. Milosevic.

13        Q.   Mr. Torkildsen, thank you very much.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Those are my questions, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             Ms. Biersay, redirect?

17             MS. BIERSAY:  No redirect, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Torkildsen, this brings your testimony to an

19     end.  We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the

20     Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness.  The Court Usher will

21     escort you out of the court and we wish you a safe journey home.  Thank

22     you very much.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, do we have another witness ready?


Page 5059

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the next witness arrived yesterday

 2     afternoon and we are not prepared to begin his testimony today.  I do

 3     know that there is an outstanding issue for the Chamber with respect to

 4     an aspect of this witness's testimony, an urgent motion was filed

 5     yesterday to which the Prosecution has at noon today filed its response.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  So that is an outstanding issue that may affect

 8     the examination or cross.

 9             There was one other issue that I would like to raise with the

10     Chamber not related to these witnesses, but since we have a few moments.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please go ahead.

12             MR. STRINGER:  And I think to do it, we'd ask to go into private

13     session.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honours --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One moment.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5060











11 Pages 5060-5061 redacted. Private session.
















Page 5062

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

25             Court adjourned.


Page 5063

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th

 3                           day of May, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.