1 Thursday, 30 May 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: For the appearances, Mr. Stringer.
11 MR. STRINGER: Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
12 For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Alexis Demirdjian;
13 legal intern, Ivana Martinovic; and case manager, Indah Susanti.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
17 For the Defence of Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and
18 Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. The witness may be brought
21 Mr. Zivanovic, for the planning with regard to the event we spoke
22 about yesterday, how long will you continue your cross-examination today?
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I think until the first break
24 I'll -- I'll be done.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Done before the break. Then we will take the
1 first break as late as possible, that means probably at 11.00 unless the
2 Registrar informs me that the records won't hold. 11.00 is okay? At the
3 latest. I know. Okay. Thank you.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Colonel Vojnovic. May I remind you
6 that you are still under oath.
7 WITNESS: MILORAD VOJNOVIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]
12 Q. [Interpretation] good morning, Mr. Vojnovic.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Let us take a look at the operational diary of your unit, which
15 is Exhibit 557.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's have page 6 in the B/C/S
17 and page 10 in the English.
18 Q. This is an entry for the 20th of November, 1991, at 0839 minutes.
19 A. Can we please zoom in?
20 Q. Yes, we shall certainly do so.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think we need to go a little
22 bit down. 0839 hundred hours. Let us enlarge slightly more.
23 Q. And you can see that it is written at 0839 that Colonel Terzic
24 from OG South asked for all the units to withdraw from the Dubrava forest
25 due to the fact that they would be targeted by artillery fire if I read
1 it correctly?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. My first question is who is Colonel Terzic? Do you know that?
4 A. I think that Colonel Terzic was at the federal secretariat for
5 national defence at the time and he acted as a kind of support or a
6 monitoring person. His specialty is artillery.
7 Q. Do you remember his first name?
8 A. I really don't. He used to be the Chief of Staff at the --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear which corps.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And his first name was Zlatoje.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [No interpretation]
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the Novi Sad Corps in 1995 or
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And you said that his first name was Zlatoje?
16 A. Yes, I think that his first name was Zlatoje.
17 Q. Do you remember where this Dubrava forest is located?
18 A. Well, not exactly. I can't remember. Mitnica, Dubrava,
19 et cetera. I think that but -- no, I wouldn't like to err. But it is
20 within the -- the scope of the area where the road to Sotin.
21 Q. Do you remember what it was necessary on the 20th of November to
22 open artillery fire at the Dubrava forest?
23 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you that. We didn't have any
24 troops there, nor any units. Therefore, I really don't know. I suppose
25 that it came from the superior command.
1 Q. Can you please take a look at the next entry at 0850.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Colonel, and also for you, Mr. Zivanovic, please
3 respect a pause between questions and answers. The interpreters have
4 difficulty following you. Thank you.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You can see here that it says that at 0850 a unit abbreviated to
7 LAD has been notified. Can you tell us what this LAD stands for?
8 A. That is light artillery battalion. And there is another
9 abbreviation, PVO next to it.
10 Q. And then if I see correctly it is IC?
11 A. That should mean a reconnaissance company, an acronym.
12 Q. Now can you tell us if this light artillery battalion, is that
13 the same unit that was under the command of Jan Marcek?
14 A. I couldn't say for sure. I know that some elements of these
15 units under Jan Marcek's command were deployed somewhere in the sector of
17 Q. And what was the name of Jan Marcek's unit?
18 A. Light Artillery Battalion PVO.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "divizion" is interpreted
20 into English as "battalion" when it deals with artillery.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You said that some elements of that battalion was deployed near
23 Vucedol but this battalion was also under Marcek's command?
24 A. No. This battery that was near Vucedol was attached to a unit
25 from the OG South.
1 Q. Very well.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now move to the next page.
3 The date is the 21st of November, 1991. Let us look at the first entry
4 which was made at 7.00 in the morning.
5 Q. This entry was made at 7.00 in the morning, as you can see.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it says that between 0300 and 0400 the positions in Grabovo
8 sector were targeted by infantry fire, that units returned fire, that
9 three shells were fired as well, that there was fire from sniper rifles,
10 and that Lieutenant-Colonel Besovic was notified of the incident. Can
11 you please clarify for us what type of fire was opened between 3.00 and
12 4.00 in the morning on the 21st of November at Grabovo?
13 A. I cannot remember at the moment. Besovic was the commander of
14 the mixed anti-armour artillery battalion. He was a lieutenant-colonel.
15 He's deceased now, unfortunately. He used to be a responsible and
16 conscientious officer. The fire could have come from some of his
17 weapons. But to me it doesn't --
18 Q. At that time on the 21st of November and in those days, was that
19 unit subordinated to you?
20 A. Believe me, I'm not able to remember because there was a series
21 of resubordination and then units were returned to their original
22 deployment. Therefore, I cannot tell you either way for that specific
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the next entry
25 at 8.00 in the morning.
1 Q. It says here that the commander of the 80th Motorised Brigade has
2 gone to Vukovar and then to Sotin. Did you go to Vukovar and Sotin on
3 that particular day?
4 A. Well, if that's what is written here, it shouldn't be -- or maybe
5 I told them that I would go and therefore they entered it into the log,
6 but I believe that I actually did go.
7 Q. Can you remember which particular route you took?
8 A. Well, there is a road that leads directly from Negoslavci to
9 Vukovar and then another road from Vukovar to Sotin that runs by the
10 river Vuka.
11 Q. Did you return along the same route; that is to say, via Ovcara?
12 A. Well, as I told you there were so many roads that were built,
13 dirt roads that were used by military vehicles, people were always
14 looking for short-cuts or roundabouts; therefore, I cannot claim for sure
15 that I took the same route back. But I definitely didn't travel via
16 Ovcara on that occasion.
17 Q. Can you tell me why didn't you given that Ovcara was in your zone
18 of responsibility and you knew what had happened on the day before?
19 Weren't you not interested to see whether there were any prisoners still
20 there, whether there were any troops or units there?
21 A. I told you yesterday that was in general the area of
22 responsibility of the OG South, and they carried out their activities
23 there. And I'm not aware of any different situation, what happened
24 there. I didn't go there ever. I had heard what transpired there but I
25 don't think that many people went there, particularly my officers from my
2 Q. You said that on the previous day on the 20th of November that
3 you were supposed to meet with Marcek, that Marcek was waiting for you in
4 front of the command building but that did you not stay there; rather,
5 you proceeded following the buses that were heading towards the hangar.
6 What I wanted to ask you is: How did you arrange this meeting with
8 A. First of all, Marcek didn't know that I would be there. I did
9 not call ahead. I simply had some time on my hands when I headed out
10 from Sotin to visit him as well. I wanted to see him. He had deployed
11 his unit there quite recently and I wanted to see how things were working
12 out with his small command to see if he had any problems, and then I
13 wanted to go to Negoslavci to attend a briefing with my superior
15 Q. The reason why I'm asking you this is because I understood you to
16 have said yesterday that Marcek had been waiting for you in front of the
18 A. Yes, Marcek saw the car. He saw me coming from the direction of
19 Sotin and he simply came out and stood in front of the command building
20 because he recognised my car. He didn't know that I would be coming, but
21 he simply waited there to salute me and to submit his report in line with
22 the military protocol. I did not stop there, as I told you yesterday. I
23 went immediately to see about the buses, who was on the bus, who was
24 getting off the buses, why they were there, and so on.
25 Q. In other words, Marcek didn't know that you would be coming. It
1 was only when he saw your car that he went out to give his report?
2 A. Yes, that's correct. He didn't know that I would be coming
3 because I had not called ahead from Sotin to tell him that I would be
4 passing by. I simply had some spare time and I wanted to take this
5 opportunity to see what he was doing, whether he had any problems, how
6 things were going, and so on, on that day and in general, indeed.
7 Q. Okay. We are done, I think, with the operational diary.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document into
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I didn't --
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, sorry.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I didn't hear you and the court reporter didn't
13 hear you.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender this document into evidence.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit D56. Thank you.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yesterday, you said that when you were in the hangar that you saw
20 a person sitting at the desk making a list of prisoners or something like
21 that. We have some indication that a man nicknamed Joca Kafic actually
22 did that. Do you know that person, Joca Kafic?
23 A. I know that person. He's from Kragujevac. He was a -- the
24 assistant commander of the LAD PVO, the light battalion for morale. He
25 came from an officer's family and he was very disciplined, conscientious,
1 responsible, spick and span. And I know that he had a cafe in
3 Q. When you say that he was an officer from the
4 light artillery battalion, was this the unit commanded by Marcek?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look in greater detail
7 in this document that's number 27 on our list. We looked at it yesterday
8 but let's now analyse it. No, it's apparently not 27. Just a moment. I
9 beg your pardon, I -- it appears that it's a different document. Yes,
10 yes. That's the one. It's the notebook. It's the operational notebook,
11 as we called it. Vezmarovic's notebook. He was the military police
12 company commander in your unit. Now let's look at page 33. I think we
13 actually need to see the other side of the page enlarged.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Excuse me. I apologise. Just to be clear what
15 we see on the right side of the screen is not a translation of -- of the
16 B/C/S, because we still see the same excerpt that we saw yesterday on the
17 screen, so I don't think the entire diary is translated, actually.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't know. I really don't know.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: You could see here that we see again SIT,
20 Captain Karanfilov, and we see a list of defenders with Filip Karaula,
21 et cetera. So I don't think this is what you want, right?
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know this is a document from the
23 Rule 65 ter list and it has to be translated.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah, the Registrar tells me that there are only
25 two pages translated out of 46 in B/C/S.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't know why the whole document was not
2 translated. Really I don't know. As far as I know it was I suppose that
3 the Prosecution did it when they put it under -- on its Rule 65 ter list.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The translation we have here is from the Mrksic
5 case. It was the excerpt that was relevant in that case and that is all
6 that's been translated, Your Honours. So if the Defence wish to use that
7 or parts I think the translation has to be provided at that stage, or at
8 least they have to notify us that they need it.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, what is your suggestion?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This document was -- was put at -- on the list,
11 on our list. And the Prosecution was informed that we shall use this
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I mean, it is the party's responsibility to make
14 sure a translation is available.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would say whatever the cause is, the problem is
16 that we have a B/C/S text that you want to show to the witness.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: While we, I mean the Trial Chamber, doesn't know
19 what it says. And I -- there is no way to find out.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would -- I would show to the witness just
21 for -- four or five lines of this text, and I could read it from -- from
22 this document and it could be translated in the record.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: That could be --
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Perhaps the better course would be for the
25 interpreters to read it. I would rather have the official interpreters
1 translate this into the record, Your Honour, than --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: And I mean --
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If that was --
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- read it from screen?
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I don't know if they have that --
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do they have it on the screen? The Registrar
7 says they have.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we do have it on the screen.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: You do have it on the screen.
11 Mr. Zivanovic, which lines would you like to
12 [overlapping speakers]
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The second part, the second part below the
14 numbers -- ERN number.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: The second part.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: The part that the Registrar zoomed in now?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is that the one?
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Could the interpreters translate it from
22 the screen?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Perhaps Mr. Zivanovic could read it and then we
24 can interpret his words while reading it on the screen.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: We could go along with that.
2 Please, Mr. Zivanovic, if you would read it.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So it's the text that is right below the list of prisoners that
5 you were shown yesterday. And below the list, at the end of the list, we
6 read the following words:
7 "Received on the 18th of November, 1991, at around 1600 hours, at
8 the farm in the village of Ovcara, handed over to Captain Karanfilov on
9 the 19th of November, 1991, at around 11.30. The lists were provided to
10 the Sremska Mitrovica penitentiary penal facility on the
11 19th of November, 1998, at around 1530."
12 And then we see Lieutenant-Colonel Zivanovic, Captain Zoric, dash
14 A. Well, yesterday we discussed this list. The captain simply noted
15 this down with the time-line and he wanted to have some record of what he
16 had done and that he had actually handed them over to the officers that
17 are signed there. Well, he couldn't record it anywhere else but in his
18 operational book.
19 Q. I think that you testified yesterday that Vezmarovic took those
20 prisoners who are listed here to the correctional and penal facility in
21 Sremska Mitrovica, yet from this record it would seem that they were
22 handed over to Karanfilov at around 11.30?
23 A. Well, he was in charge of securing and escorting those prisoners,
24 ensuring their safety. And you can see that Captain Karanfilov was in
25 charge of all that.
1 Q. Let me show you another entry from this notebook at page 35.
2 It's just a single sentence at the bottom part of the page. It says
4 "The centre for the provision of care to civilians and property,
5 Commander Ljubinko Stojanovic."
6 Do you know what kind of a centre we are talking about, a centre
7 for the provision of care to civilians and property?
8 A. I think that in Velepromet there were some premises where some
9 items were stored, food and other items and some other property that was
10 brought into Vukovar, because assistance was needed to repair those items
11 and also to perhaps make some things operational. But I couldn't really
12 be more specific than that. Civilians who in my opinion - in my
13 opinion - did not have anywhere else to go or did not dare to go to the
14 centre of the town would gather there, the elderly civilians would gather
15 there, all those who were not involved in any units.
16 Q. Thank you very much. We don't have to belabour that. Let me
17 just ask you this: Do you know this man, Ljubinko Stojanovic, who he
19 A. If that's the man I'm thinking of, Ljubinko Stojanovic was a man
20 from Vukovar. He organised some cultural activities later on,
21 Radio Vukovar, so he was active in the propaganda efforts in Vukovar
22 together with his men.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like you to look at an entry at page 36.
24 It's right at the beginning of the page. There is a name written here,
25 Zavisic, and it says the command of the police station in Vukovar,
1 Miodrag Zavisic. Can you tell me, do you know who that man was?
2 A. I don't.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you. At page 37, the next page, right at the
4 beginning in the upper left-hand corner you see "no statements for the
5 public, Lieutenant-Colonel Bogdanovic." Do you know who
6 Lieutenant-Colonel Bogdanovic was?
7 A. There were several men with the same last name, Bogdanovic, but I
8 know that there was a Lieutenant-Colonel Bogdanovic. His first name was
9 Mile. He was my assistant for morale for a very short time in Vukovar,
10 and I can now tell you why that was, because the press -- the media were
11 really exerting great pressure on everyone asking people to make
12 statements, public statements, and this is probably why he said that, in
13 order to prevent the personnel from making statements and from talking to
14 the media. That's why he made this note.
15 Q. I understood that this instruction was issued after the fighting
16 had stopped and I would like to know whether you know why no public
17 statements were made after the fighting stopped?
18 A. Well, you know how it is. All kinds of comments were made,
19 people were bragging, they were trying to stress their own importance,
20 inaccurate information, and that is indeed the worst part, and I think
21 that is why he did what he did.
22 Q. Let us take a look at page 40.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm sorry, Your Honours. We started with four
24 lines. Now we're looking at a fifth page. There is no translation
25 again. We are looking at pages written in Cyrillic. We have no idea.
1 We are left in the dark.
2 Once again, I would really insist that if counsel wishes to use
3 something, he has to make sure that the parts that are relevant to his
4 cross-examination are translated. We cannot be expected to translate
5 entire notebooks, diaries, manuals. I think it's counsel's
6 responsibility at this stage to provide us translations and to know what
7 we are looking at on the screen.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe it is exclusive fault of the
9 Prosecution not to translate document from their list. That -- they did
10 not say that they put on the list just one page or two pages but they --
11 they put the document on the list.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I think that is completely wrong, Your Honours.
13 We have manuals on our list. We have -- we have the military lexicon
14 that is 2.000 pages. We cannot expect CLSS or any of our units to
15 translate every page without knowing what the Defence wishes to use. And
16 again, it is the responsibility of counsel who is preparing for his
17 cross-examination to prepare the documents he will display before the
18 Trial Chamber. And again, I believe we are left in the dark. It is
19 really not a useful exercise if we don't have before us the translations
20 that are necessary for the cross-examination.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is not the document of 2.000 pages but just
22 49 pages. And just to conclude, I'll just read one name from this book
23 from this particular page, and I'll complete my cross-examination as
24 regard to this document.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which name would that be -- sorry, which name
1 would that be, Mr. Zivanovic?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This is the name of Lieutenant-Colonel Stricevic.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what would be the use of reading that name
4 from this document? I mean, there is no context. We know who Stricevic
5 is. If you want to ask something about Colonel Stricevic --
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- we can do it without the document.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just like to see whether the witness
9 knows anything about Stricevic and about the contacts between Stricevic
10 and his commander of military police.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Why don't you just ask it?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, in this notebook there is mention
14 of Lieutenant-Colonel Stricevic. Do you know who
15 Lieutenant-Colonel Stricevic is?
16 A. Yes, I do. That is Lieutenant-Colonel Marko Stricevic. He was
17 the chief of the medical corps in the 80th Brigade.
18 Q. Thank you. Let us now take a look and go through your statement.
19 First of all, let us look at paragraph 13 of your statement number 1981.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 13 begins on page 6 in
21 the B/C/S and continues on page 7.
22 Q. On the next page, you spoke about the burial of the dead bodies
23 that were found in Vukovar, and I think it was about 400 dead bodies, and
24 you also made a reference to Colonel Basic from the
25 1st Military District Command. Can you tell us when this happened? When
1 this burial of dead bodies took place?
2 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly when this activity started. But
3 following the liberation of Vukovar and the establishment of the brigade
4 command and its transfer to the barracks in Vukovar, Colonel Basic came
5 to see me every afternoon seeking assistance in troops and in motor
6 vehicles in order to help him with the identification of the bodies and
7 their burials. That was somewhere in the region of the Turkish cemetery
8 as it was called in Vukovar. He really did that in the most
9 conscientious and responsible way. He marked every body, he put a cross,
10 he wrote the name whenever he knew that --
11 Q. We know all about that. You needn't repeat it. In paragraph 20
12 you speak about the investigations and the participation of the military
13 police in them, and there is mention of the case of the three men from
14 Leva Supoderica.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at
16 Exhibit 1D361.
17 Q. This is a report on the wounding of the commander of the TO
18 Vukovar. I think you were the one who compiled it.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom of the
20 B/C/S document.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Since I see that you authored this report and it says at the very
24 end that:
25 "The investigation into the circumstances surrounding the
1 wounding of Vujovic is underway and you will be informed it in due
3 Can you tell me what was the follow-up procedure and what was
4 done in that respect?
5 A. Well, this procedure was carried out by security organs. It was
6 established, the identity of the person who wounded Vujovic was
7 established, and how this accident happened. And there is a description
8 of the whole event, nothing else. I suppose that the superior command
9 was informed about this as well and you see that this is addressed to the
10 1st Military District Command. Whether there was any subsequent forensic
11 report, I'm not aware of that, but it actually happened as described
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Zivanovic please repeat his question.
14 There was an overlapping.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. --
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I repeat my question. Sorry.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I am not disputing the contents of this document, but my question
20 was whether there was any follow-up report because this is what is being
21 indicated in the last sentence of this document.
22 A. I cannot tell you if anything special was done except that this
23 went to the 1st Military District.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I will tender this document into
2 I'll repeat. I would tender this document into evidence,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit D57. Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have document 1D364.
7 Q. In paragraph 25 of your statement, you speak about what the
8 responsibilities of the town command were. This is yet another document
9 produced, I believe, on the 16th of November. Can you please clarify for
10 me item 2 of this order that you issued. It reads that in Sotin
11 authorities should be organised:
12 "... pursuant to the rules of service -- of service and the
13 proper provision relating to service in garrison and barracks and to take
14 all necessary measures to prevent the infiltration of sabotage and
15 terrorist groups and carrying out of terrorist acts, draft instruction
16 for work and ensure a normal living and working conditions for the
17 population and prevent any ill-treatment of the local population and
18 unauthorised entry and search of flats and houses."
19 Those were within the scope of the responsibilities of town
20 commands, everything that I read out to you and everything that is
21 contained in paragraph 2 of this order.
22 A. This was specifically relevant for the village of Sotin because
23 that was the largest village of that type where our units were deployed,
24 and as a result it was possible to organise normal life because it did
25 not sustain so much damage like other places and it could provide better
1 living conditions. And for that reason, the logistics battalion was
2 deployed as well because the conditions were good and supplies were
3 possible for all brigade units, particularly in terms of quartermaster
4 and technical support. There were also workshops. There was a clinic
5 which served both the brigade and the entire population living in the
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document 6029.
8 Q. This document is dated the 20th of November, 1991, and it deals
9 with the appointment of Jan Marcek, commander of Ovcara. As far as I can
10 see, your order under item number 2 is identical to the previous one.
11 You said that Sotin was a specific place but I can see that you issued
12 identical order with respect to Ovcara.
13 A. Well, that was a universal order. Ovcara only had this one
14 facility. There was no civilian population as was the case in Sotin, and
15 that is why I put the emphasis on Sotin, although the whole arrangement
16 was identical.
17 Q. And the command -- the town command responsibilities were the
18 same; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender these two documents
21 into evidence.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just for the record, this is -- this last
23 document is a duplicate. We've already admitted a document with the same
24 content. I can check the exhibit number, if necessary.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, do you have an exhibit number
1 already for this document?
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please give an exhibit number to the first one.
4 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D364 shall be assigned Exhibit D58.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: And --
6 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Just for the record, it was tab 12 in the
8 Prosecution list, and this order on the 20th of November - yes - it was
9 part of the package which was admitted yesterday. It was at tab 12. It
10 was 65 ter 633, just for the record.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: So, Mr. Zivanovic, you agree we do not --
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- need to admit a duplicate?
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: A duplicate is not necessary, of course.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It was assigned Exhibit P1991.1981. Thank you.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yesterday, when you spoke about paragraph 26, you were shown a
20 document that pertains to Ilok, and it says that there was
21 dissatisfaction with how the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and
22 Western Srem was operating. At that time, did you have any contacts with
23 the Ilok command? Did you co-operate with them?
24 A. I had no contacts and I did not co-operate with them.
25 Q. In a word, you saw this document for the first time when the
1 Prosecution showed it to you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In paragraph 27, it reads and you mentioned Radovan Stojicic, aka
4 Badza, and it says here that you thought that he was the TO commander but
5 later on it turned out that that was not the case. Can you remember when
6 did you find out that he was not the TO commander? Was that after the
7 fighting in Vukovar, let's say in December, January, until the end of
8 your term, or was it before?
9 A. I am sure that it happened after the fighting in Vukovar because
10 it was possible for me to reach Dalj, and I saw the house where he was
11 billeted, but I didn't find anyone there. I wanted to get in touch with
12 him but I failed in doing so, and I never saw him either then or later.
13 But I did hear later what he turned out to be and what he did.
14 Q. What do you mean "what he turned out to be"?
15 A. Well, whether that was the same person who later became a
16 high-ranking police official. That's what I had in mind.
17 Q. In paragraph 28, you state that Colonel Mrksic, as he was at the
18 time, the commander of the OG South, ordered an inspection of the
19 volunteers and local TO and ordered that they had to be integrated into a
20 single detachment - so I'm reading from your statement, paragraph 28 -
21 and it is after that the 1st Vukovar Detachment was formed. Was this
22 inspection of the volunteers and the TO ever carried out as ordered by
23 Colonel Mrksic, or rather, was it carried out while he was still there or
24 at a later date?
25 A. Colonel Mrksic ordered that this volunteer detachment be set up,
1 prepared, I don't know the exact strength, and that all of them should
2 become part of my unit and be subordinated to me. All the troops and the
3 equipment. This was never carried out. But when I assumed the command
4 of the town and when Colonel Mrksic left for Belgrade, we established a
5 TO detachment, the 1st TO Vukovar Detachment, and a large part of those
6 volunteers who were Seselj's men, and so on, joined this detachment.
7 They were lined up, armed, equipped, for once they looked like a real
8 army, real soldiers, and then they were disbanded. They were demobilised
9 after they were established.
10 Q. Let's move on to paragraph 53 of your statement. In this
11 paragraph - we are about to see it on our screens, in Serbian as well -
12 you say that Captain Vezmarovic issued an order to withdraw security only
13 after Captain Karanfilov's announcement that the detainees were being
14 handed over to the TO. Could you please tell me whether you learned that
15 from Vezmarovic or were you there in person while this was going on?
16 A. No, I was not there in person. Vezmarovic reported to me when he
17 came here and I also heard the same report from Captain Marcek, the
18 artillery battalion commander.
19 Q. Did you talk to Karanfilov at all?
20 A. No, I did not. I saw him but I did not speak to him.
21 Q. Why didn't you ask him about it?
22 A. Well, why would I? He was in charge of those prisoners providing
23 security to them. We didn't know that. And he actually went public, as
24 Vezmarovic told me, and he said that the JNA units were not under any
25 kind of obligation vis-a-vis the Territorial Defence, that they should
1 surrender to the Territorial Defence units, and that the SAO Krajina
2 government had been established with the judiciary and the police force
3 and that they would be in charge of the proceedings from then on. It was
4 very clear, unequivocal. He stated in no uncertain terms that he did not
5 have any obligations in that case, and it was only after that that
6 Vezmarovic came back and reported to me, as did Captain Marcek.
7 Q. Now I would like you to clear this up. He -- you said that he
8 went public, what does it mean? Did he talk to the media?
9 A. Well, Marcek told me. I don't know how it happened, whether he
10 came to the command post or what, in Negoslavci, I mean. And he said
11 that the Territorial Defence was taking over the prisoners. I -- he went
12 after the police and he came there to tell me that the police had packed
13 up their bags and left.
14 Q. Let us clear this up, what you just said. Let me read in English
15 what is stated in the transcript:
16 "[In English] And he actually went public, as Vezmarovic told me,
17 and he said that the JNA units were not under any kind of obligation
18 vis-a-vis the Territorial Defence ..."
19 [Interpretation] I won't be reading any further, but could you
20 please tell me how did Vezmarovic tell you that this was made public?
21 What does it mean?
22 A. Well, he stood in front of the prisoners and the
23 Territorial Defence members and there were also troops from my unit, and
24 he said the prisoners who are here are now taken over by the
25 Territorial Defence.
1 Q. You don't have to repeat what he said. So when you say that he
2 went public, that means that he said it out loud in the hangar?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the speakers please
5 not overlap.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Gentlemen, please don't overlap.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In paragraph 61 you speak about a meeting held on the eve of the
9 Guards Brigade's departure. You attended this meeting, as did
10 Major Sljivancanin, and Vujovic and Vujanovic. Could you tell me,
11 please, how did you come to be at this meeting?
12 A. I can't really tell you why I happened to be at that meeting.
13 The meeting was held at Velepromet. I don't know if somebody told me
14 about it, whether I received a report to that effect. But I really was
15 there. Sljivancanin was there. It was in a room where 30 or 40 people
16 could fit in. He said that the Guards Brigade was leaving Vukovar and
17 that it was --
18 Q. Please, don't repeat what you had already said. Could you please
19 limit your answer to my question. My question was how you came to be
20 there, so I didn't ask you about what the participants said because you
21 have already testified about that and I don't want your testimony to be
23 My question is: Was that the first time after the
24 20th of November that you saw Vujovic and Vujanovic in person?
25 A. I had not seen them before. I think that was the first time that
1 I saw them after the event, when I saw them at Velepromet. I think they
2 were there because you could not hold a meeting of that kind in their
4 Q. You say that you think they were there, but in your statement in
5 paragraph 61 you say that you were introduced to Vujovic and Vujanovic
6 and to all the others who were present there?
7 A. Yes. I think they were there but I can't really tell you with
8 any certainty. But what I can tell you for sure is that this meeting
9 could not have been held without them. Sljivancanin introduced me to all
10 of them, not only to Vujovic and Vujanovic.
11 Q. Do you remember when was the first time that you saw Vujovic and
12 Vujanovic after the events at Ovcara?
13 A. Well, I did not seem them for sure. I think I may have seen them
14 at the end of November. As I said, they did not come to the command all
15 that often, and it's really a --
16 Q. In a word, you cannot be specific about when you saw them after
17 the event at Ovcara?
18 A. No, I cannot be specific about the time when I saw them first
19 after the events at Ovcara.
20 Q. In paragraph 68 you say that the events at Ovcara were not spoken
21 about at the briefings of OG South. And yet in paragraph 69 I can see
22 that you say that Mrksic issued an order to prepare the accommodation of
23 a team of investigators coming to look into what happened at Ovcara. So
24 was this order issued outside of the meeting or in some other context?
25 A. The events at Ovcara were not mentioned at the meetings and
1 perhaps it was at this meeting or some subsequent meeting, but Mrksic did
2 say that premises should be made ready for the team of investigators.
3 Q. You reported to your officers about the events at Ovcara or,
4 rather, as you say in paragraph 69 you heard about what had happened the
5 night before. You informed your officers, and you said that things like
6 that should not happen again. I want to ask you this: After you heard
7 what happened the night before at Ovcara - in other words, that the
8 prisoners had been executed - did you raise this issue with Mrksic since
9 Ovcara was in your area of responsibility?
10 A. I did gather up my command, members of my command, and I told
11 them what happened, and I warned them that such incidents should not and
12 could not happen again. I also discussed some other things. And I
13 couldn't report to Mrksic because he was in charge of that and he was
14 much more aware of the situation. He knew more about the situation than
15 I did since he was the commander of OG South. He had the powers to
16 organise a team of investigators, I did not.
17 Q. Perhaps you did not understand my question. But you heard about
18 what happened at Ovcara the night before, that the prisoners who had been
19 abused were later executed, so did you report to Mrksic about what you
20 had heard?
21 A. No, because I knew that Mrksic knew more than I did about the
22 situation. I did report what I knew. I said, as I already said, this
23 was not discussed in the command.
24 Q. You said that your area of responsibility stretched along just
25 one bank of the river Vuka and that on the other side of the river
1 another unit, I think it was the Novi Sad Corps, was in charge. It was
2 its area of responsibility.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me show you a document. It's the Prosecutor's document and
5 the number is 1684.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] So P1684.
7 Q. In the context of those numerous volunteer units that were
8 present in the area covered by OG South and in, indeed, your area of
9 responsibility, do you know if Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's unit, was
10 present in your area of responsibility?
11 A. No. Not in my unit. That's for sure.
12 Q. Could you please look at this report issued by the 16th Corps
13 command from December, 1991, and I would like you to look --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's on page 2 in the English
15 version. I want to see paragraph 8.
16 Q. You can see in paragraph 8 there is a list of volunteer units
17 that were part of the 12th Corps. It's the Novi Sad Corps, am I right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the last one is Arkan's unit. I think this is the
20 Territorial Defence detachment, volunteer Territorial Defence detachment
21 with 70 conscripts. Now I want to ask you if you know that at that time
22 Arkan's unit was present in the area of responsibility of the 12th Corps?
23 A. I don't know where this unit was deployed. I saw Arkan with the
24 corps commander, General Biorcevic, about two or three times, and based
25 on that I concluded that he was there. I also heard about his presence.
1 Q. Since you are a career officer, how do you read the first
2 sentence in paragraph 8:
3 "The following volunteer units belong to the ranks of the
4 12th Corps:"
5 Do you read this as meaning that those units were subordinated to
6 the 12th Corps?
7 A. Well, you can interpret it both ways. It means that they could
8 be acting in concert with those units, that they were present in the area
9 of responsibility, or indeed that they were subordinated to the
10 12th Corps.
11 Q. You spoke about the team of investigators that arrived in the
12 area and that you knew about it, and I want to know -- well, you said
13 that you knew about Major Stankovic. Let me remind you, you testified
14 before the war crimes court in Belgrade -- or rather, I didn't mean to
15 ask you that. You testified in the Vukovar case on the
16 15th of May, 2006, before this Tribunal.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's Exhibit 4628.
18 Q. Now, I want to ask you this: You state here that you saw --
19 well, I can find the exact page in the transcript. You say that you did
20 not see those investigators in person, just some of them, and that you
21 say that Colonel Papic was there, he was a prosecutor at the time, but
22 that you did not know any of the others. Do you remember saying that?
23 A. I did not know him before that, not in that capacity, but he
24 attended the meeting with Mrksic and then he was introduced to me as
25 Prosecutor Colonel Papic. I did not see him after that. And I even
1 heard that he came originally from the village of Negoslavci. If that's
2 true or not, I cannot really tell you.
3 Q. He was there at the time while Colonel Mrksic was still in
4 Vukovar -- or, rather, Negoslavci?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In this same transcript I think on page 58 you explained the
7 composition of your unit. You mentioned the 1st Battalion, and you said,
8 among other things, that a Major Susa was the commander of that battalion
9 and that his deputy was a Captain Dusko Filipovic.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell me first whether his proper name was Dusko or Dusan?
12 A. I believe that his proper name is Dusan.
13 Q. I believe that on that occasion you said that they were
14 resubordinated to some other unit in the OG North.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you know where they were; for example, where Filipovic was?
17 Was he in the area of OG North in Serbia or in this part of Yugoslavia
18 around Sid?
19 A. They were in the area of OG North, commanded by the 12th Corps.
20 I know that they had been detached to the village of Klisa.
21 Q. Did they leave before or after you?
22 A. They were the first unit that left and that was on the
23 29th of October, 1991, and they departed from Kragujevac.
24 Q. Tell me, please, in the aftermath of these events and with regard
25 to Ovcara events, in particular, did you conduct any conversations with
1 people who were involved in all of that in some sort of way with people
2 who had certain roles either in the hangar or at Velepromet or at Grabovo
3 and at other places?
4 A. No. I said that this issue was never discussed. I never heard
5 anyone discussing it either in the command of OG South or in my command.
6 Whether there were any private conversations about that, I wouldn't know.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session, please.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 5183-5192 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, I have quite a lot of information about this
13 meeting in Velepromet. And according to the information that I have, a
14 JNA officer attended the meeting, he introduced himself as the commander
15 of the town of Vukovar. Are you aware of that?
16 A. I attended the meeting. I don't know who else was there, but I
17 did not introduce myself because I was not the town commander yet.
18 Q. According to the information that I have, your name, your rank,
19 and your post were all listed there among the attendees. Were there any
20 other Milorad Vojnovic's there?
21 A. No, I don't know if there were any Milorad Vojnovics who are
22 officers, military officers, I don't know about that. There are
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just say one thing.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please do.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As regards the statements and the
4 allegation that I did not mention any names in either of the statements,
5 the first trial in the Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic case confirmed
6 that I was there and that I mentioned those names. I said that
7 Vukasinovic was there, Panic, and Karanfilov, and all the others.
8 Marcek, Vezmarovic, Vukosavljevic, Vukic, Vukasinovic himself, they can
9 all confirm, and Vukasinovic did confirm that in the Seselj trial, he
10 said that he had been there and that he had thought that the
11 Territorial Defence would take over the prisoners and would try them,
12 prosecute them, and so on. So all those men can confirm what I have just
13 said. I mentioned all those names and I don't know why that was not
14 recorded. That's all I wanted to say. And there are probably some other
15 people who can confirm that I said all along that those people had been
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Demirdjian, how long will you have for redirect?
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, depending on the answers
20 approximately 10 to 15 minutes.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We'll take the break now. Let's keep it
22 on the safe side and say that we come back at 11.45.
23 Mr. Vojnovic, the Court Usher will escort you out of court for
24 our second break that will last for 45 minutes. Thank you.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.46 a.m.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 And may the record reflect that Mr. Stringer had to leave during
8 the break.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vojnovic.
11 A. Thank you. Good morning.
12 Q. I just have a few questions to clarify some of the answers you
13 gave during cross-examination this morning.
14 Now, do you remember this morning that Mr. Zivanovic asked you
15 about the entries in the operation -- operations diary of your brigade,
16 especially the one on the 20th of November which refers to
17 Colonel Terzic. Do you remember that?
18 A. Did you ask me about that? I'm not aware of that.
19 Q. Sorry. This morning Mr. Zivanovic asked you about an entry in
20 the diary of your brigade, and there is a mention of a Colonel Terzic.
21 Do you remember that question?
22 A. Yes. Yes. Mr. Zivanovic asked me.
23 Q. Thank you. And do you remember that you answered and said that
24 the full name of this Colonel was Zlatoje Terzic; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And you also told us that he was a member of the SNNO; is that
3 A. Yes. Well, I cannot tell you exactly whether he was from the
4 SSNO or from the General Staff, but I think he was from the
5 Federal Secret of National Defence, SSNO.
6 Q. Okay. I'd like to show you a document on this topic.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is 65 ter 6389, please. Thank you.
8 Q. Now, Colonel, I haven't had the opportunity to show you this
9 document before, so if you'd like to take a moment to take a look at it.
10 You'll see that it's from the Federal Secretariat for National Defence on
11 the 29th of September, 1991. Are you able to read what's on the screen?
12 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
13 Q. Do you see the section below "I hereby order ..."?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you see the names here of Nebojsa Pavkovic and Zlatoje Terzic?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And after their name it says that both are from the office of the
18 SSNO; is that right? Is that what it says?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now generally speaking, are you aware -- were you aware at the
21 time that Pavkovic and Terzic had been sent from Belgrade to Negoslavci?
22 A. No, I wasn't. I saw Pavkovic once and as for Terzic I saw him
23 once or twice.
24 Q. Very well. And are you familiar with the person who signs the
25 document, Vuk Obradovic?
1 A. Yes, I know him.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this document.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Should be assigned Exhibit P2011. Thank you.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
7 Q. Now earlier this morning, and for the record this was at page 42,
8 Mr. Zivanovic asked you a question which related to this meeting at
9 Velepromet which you learnt about later on, so after the events in
10 Vukovar. Do you remember that question?
11 A. I remember being at Velepromet and that was prior to the
12 departure of the Guards Brigade from Belgrade. One or two days before,
13 Major Sljivancanin was the main speaker there saying that the people are
14 leaving, that everything is order -- in order now, and that the
15 80th Brigade was replacing the Guards Brigade and assuming their duties,
16 and that somebody from the 80th Brigade would be appointed town
17 commander. There were no other major issues, but I realise that
18 Sljivancanin was quite familiar with the people there and they were
19 familiar with him.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you for that clarification. Now, this is what
21 I'd like to ask you: Mr. Zivanovic was referring to paragraph 62 and 63
22 of your statement when he asked you those questions and those paragraphs
23 deal with a meeting in Velepromet on the 20th of November, and it was a
24 meeting where the JNA and the government of the SAO SBWZ were present.
25 And in response to one of his questions you said:
1 "I attended the meeting. I don't know who else was there but I
2 did not introduce myself because I was not the town commander yet."
3 So can I ask you to clarify, when you say "I attended the
4 meeting," which meeting are you talking about?
5 A. I was talking about the meeting held at Velepromet and where
6 Sljivancanin spoke before the brigade left for Belgrade.
7 Q. And you just told us a minute ago this was a few days before they
8 left for Belgrade?
9 A. Well, I cannot be 100 per cent sure. A couple of days before
10 they left for Belgrade, that's when the meeting was held.
11 Q. Thank you for that. Now the last topic that I would like to deal
12 with is the statements in 1998 that you gave and which were admitted
13 earlier this morning. Now, the first one that was admitted was
14 Exhibit D59.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And I would like us to display that on the
16 screen, please.
17 Q. And while it's coming up, you told us before the break that these
18 are -- well, let me get the exact excerpt here.
19 You explained at page 43 of the transcript -- well, you explained
20 your position, basically, and you say here that you did mention all those
21 names and you did not know why they were not recorded. You remember that
23 A. Yes, that is correct. And I still cannot believe that this was
24 not recorded. As for the statement that I gave to Colonel Gajic, I
25 learned about that here in The Hague. And as for the statement taken by
1 Radomir Gojovic is something that I've seen for the first time here and I
2 was not aware that he omitted to include that as well.
3 Q. Now if we look at the first paragraph of the document that we
4 have in front of us, do you see the initial sentence which reads:
5 "Authorised officials of the security organ of Military Post 9922
6 Belgrade ..."
7 Now first of all, I will stop here for a second. Do you know
8 what this military post 9922 is? What does it refer to?
9 A. I don't know which military posts in Belgrade that is, but I
10 suppose that it's the military post, the peacetime military post of the
11 Guards Brigade in Belgrade.
12 Q. The sentence continues:
13 "... acting upon request of the military prosecutor in Belgrade,
14 KR no.3/98 of 12 January, 1998, to collect necessary information relating
15 to the indictment issued by the Prosecutor of the International Criminal
16 Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia against Veselin Sljivancanin,
17 Mile Mrksic, and Miroslav Radic, for several crimes comitted against
18 civilian population and prisoners of war," et cetera.
19 Now at the time when you were interviewed, were you informed of
20 the context within which you were giving this statement?
21 A. All I was told was that it deals with the events and that relates
22 to the proceedings instituted against Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin in
23 relation to the Ovcara events. That's what I've been told. They used to
24 call them the "Vukovar trojka."
25 Q. Now I know it's been several times, but do you remember at the
1 time or did you know when the indictment was issued against Mrksic,
2 Sljivancanin and Radic?
3 A. No, I don't know exactly.
4 Q. And, as part of these proceedings, are you aware as to whether
5 you were the only one interviewed or were there other witnesses
7 A. I know that I was interviewed and as for my unit I think that
8 Dragi Vukosavljevic, the security organ, was also interviewed, as well as
9 the police company commander, Vezmarovic, Jan Marcek. Now I remember
10 another one, Svetolik Vukic.
11 Q. That's fine. For this purpose you don't have to name everyone.
12 That's fine.
13 A. I mean I didn't see it. I don't know when or where it happened.
14 But I presume that it did happen.
15 Q. And are you aware as to whether members of the Guards Brigade
16 were interviewed?
17 A. Yes, I know that Vukasinovic was interviewed at the same time
18 when I was interviewed by the investigating judge. I was interviewed
19 first. We said hello to one another, and I think that on that occasion
20 as well I had seen him standing in the hangar. So as I say, I saw him on
21 that occasion and we talked. Of course, I heard that interviews were
22 conducted with Sljivancanin and with others, but as for this one I am
23 quite sure.
24 Yes, no, I'm sorry. Miodrag Panic was with me in Belgrade when
25 we were interviewed by the investigating judge and he was from the
1 brigade as well.
2 Q. Now, this morning at pages 37, 38, you told us that the
3 investigating judge told you your statement is fair but you're neglecting
4 one thing. There are defending Mrksic, Sljivancanin, and Radic. Now you
5 added that you did not know who he was referring to when he said "they
6 are defending." I'd like to return to that answer of yours. How was
7 this information conveyed to you?
8 A. Well, after I finished inside my statement - and I should add
9 that I knew Gojovic from before in Sarajevo where he was a commander and
10 I knew that he had become a judge in the meantime - after reading my
11 statement he said, "You gave a fair statement but you overlooked the fact
12 that the people you are talking to are the ones who are defending Mrksic,
13 Radic, and Sljivancanin," and those were, in fact, attorneys at law. Now
14 I remember their names, Mr. Vasic, Mr. Lukic. I only know their last
15 names. And whether Borovic or Borovjevic, one of the two.
16 Q. And now you say that the people you are talking to are the ones
17 who are defending Mrksic, Radic, and Sljivancanin. I'm not entirely
18 clear. Were you taking to them? Were they present during the interview?
19 A. No. I talked very briefly with Mr. Lukic and Mr. Vasic. Now as
20 for Borovic or Borovjevic, I didn't talk to him at all. That was not a
21 meeting where minutes were taken. We were just sitting together in an
22 informal fashion. I used -- to tell them a few things and that's how it
24 Q. And do you know how Gojovic was aware that you had spoken to
25 Vasic, Lukic, and Borovic?
1 A. Once Gojovic and Lukic came to Backa Palanka to meet with me and
2 to talk to me. And I also saw Lukic at the special court in Belgrade.
3 We exchanged a few words, nothing more than that.
4 Q. Very well. And with respect to these two statements this morning
5 you told us, and this is at page 39, that "my words were not recorded
6 properly." Do you stand behind these two statements?
7 A. I stand by these two statements 1 million per cent, not 100 per
8 cent. Because that's what I said. If I omitted to say that and that was
9 a key thing, I would have assumed the responsibility for which I cannot
10 be held responsible, and I mention that in my previous statement, that
11 they were there, and this is repeated throughout all my subsequent
13 Now this statement made by the investigating judge which I'd
14 never seen before, and Gajic is one I did see earlier and I reacted
15 immediately. And each and every statement was corrected in that respect
16 and it was confirmed that that was the case; i.e., that Vukasinovic,
17 Karanfilov, and Panic and the assistants for morale were indeed in the
18 hangar. But I don't see their names here. I don't know why. Probably I
19 was too relaxed and I honestly believed that they would sincerely record
20 and faithfully record what I was saying, but it seems to me that their
21 intention was to try and to protect someone from what I might possibly
22 say and that turned out to be the case.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can I have a moment, please.
25 [Prosecution Counsel Confer]
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vojnovic.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, that is all the questions I have.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would put some questions arising from the
7 redirect to the witness.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, did anything new arise from the
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, nothing new. Just as to clarification of his
12 statement from the page 41, 42, as told by the Prosecution.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Just a few questions then.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
15 Further cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vojnovic, a question was asked at page 41 of
17 today's transcript about your statement, paragraphs 62 and 63 of your
18 statement. You have an opportunity to look at those paragraphs on your
19 screen. We were talking about the meeting at Velepromet where a decision
20 was made what to do about the prisoners. This is what I specifically
21 stressed. And I asked you when you heard about that for the first time,
22 and you said that General Panic told you that.
23 A. You are talking about Velepromet?
24 Q. I asked you when you heard for the first time about the meeting
25 at Velepromet when the decision was made to hand over the prisoners. Let
1 me just -- yes, just a moment. Let me finish my question. So I asked
2 you about when you heard that for the first time and you said that
3 General Panic told you that when you were giving a statement to the
4 investigating judge, both of you; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. And then I put it to you at page 42 that I have a lot of
7 information about that meeting at Velepromet and that according to the
8 information that I have that meeting was attended by a JNA officer who
9 introduced himself as the town commander. You remember my question?
10 A. That he said that he was the town commander, that that's how he
11 introduced himself? Because the brigade commander and the town commander
12 are two different things. There was the town command. I don't know who
13 that officer may have been. But there was the town command.
14 Q. But as the brigade commander?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You said here:
17 "I attended this meeting. I don't know who else was there, but I
18 did not introduce myself because I was not the town commander."
19 A. No, no, no.
20 Q. I am reading back your answer which was recorded and indeed was
22 A. Yes. Two terms are confused here, "town command" and
23 "brigade command." There was a separate town command and the brigade
24 command was a separate entity. It was located in the Vukovar barracks.
25 The town command had different tasks, that's what we explained, and it
1 was subordinated to the brigade. Since civilian structure, civilian
2 authorities were supposed to be set up, somebody from the town command
3 probably was present there. I don't know who that was.
4 Q. Let me put something else to you. According to the information
5 that I have, the officer introduced himself as Milorad Vojnovic.
6 A. No. Perhaps you're mixing things up because I was there when the
7 executive government of Vukovar was established.
8 Q. Let's not go into that. Don't go into that. I'm asking you
9 about an event of --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please, gentlemen. One, two, three, four, five.
11 Should I continue?
12 Mr. Zivanovic.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Vojnovic, I'm asking you about one event. Please don't talk
15 about other events. So I'm talking to you about the meeting at
16 Velepromet where the purported hand-over of the prisoners was carried out
17 on the 20th of November. I am not interested in any other meeting. So I
18 put it to you that I had information that a JNA officer was present there
19 and that he introduced himself as Milorad Vojnovic.
20 A. Your information is wrong. I was not there 100 per cent.
21 Q. And can you tell us when were you appointed the town commander?
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm sorry. This goes beyond the scope now.
23 We've covered the issue of the meeting sufficiently.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In course of redirect the witness answered that
25 he was not at the time the commander of town and --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Go ahead, Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. So can you tell me when were you appointed the town commander?
4 A. Well, I cannot recall the exact date. It must have been in
5 December just before the Guards Brigade left. That would be logical.
6 For as long as they were there, they exercised the function of command.
7 Q. And did you appoint other town commanders as the town commander?
8 A. After the Guards Brigade left, we appointed the commanders in the
9 villages around Vukovar. So they were village commanders.
10 Q. You had an opportunity to look at the document, the operational
11 diary of your unit. We don't have to look at it now. But I saw there
12 that Jan Marcek was appointed the commander of Ovcara on the
13 19th of November.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that you appointed him.
16 A. Yes. Yes. Let me give you a clarification. Jan Marcek was not
17 a part of my unit at the time. But since we knew that the units were
18 leaving and since he was being returned to my unit, I assumed the right
19 to appoint him although I did not have the power. At that time on that
20 day he was still subordinated to the OG South, but I did issue an order
21 appointing him the village commander.
22 Q. And until the 19th of November, he was subordinated to whom?
23 A. To OG South, the chief of the artillery and anti-aircraft
24 artillery service. I can't remember his name. He was a colonel.
25 Q. So you issued the order appointing him the village commander, the
1 commander of the village of Ovcara; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'm not asking you why you did that, whether you consulted anyone
4 or not. But you issued the order.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And would you agree with me that Marcek was subordinated to this
7 commander that you mention. I think you said that his name was
8 Losanovic [phoen]. You spoke about him earlier?
9 A. Yes. But that was in professional terms.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, this subordination that you are
11 talking about. Could you give a time-frame for that, for this question?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Would you please tell us when was Jan Marcek subordinated to this
14 officer by the name of Losanovic?
15 A. I think it was all the way up to the time when the Guards Brigade
16 left for Belgrade or immediately before that.
17 Q. Now --
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: And starting when?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Starting when?
21 A. Well I can't be specific. First the OG South command issued its
22 order appointing command posts and commanders, and then based on their
23 order we, the brigade command, appointed our officers and our people --
24 or personnel to appropriate villages.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: So if I understood Mr. Zivanovic's question
1 correctly, this is after your order appointing the Ovcara village
2 command. And do I understand it correctly from your previous answers
3 that this order was given somewhere in December?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in December. Now I
5 can't recall the exact date.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In your answer to my previous question, you said that the
9 OG South command first issued an order appointing the town and village
10 commanders, and then based on that order you appointed other town and
11 village commanders; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So the order from the OG South on your appointment preceded your
14 order appointing Jan Marcek as the village commander?
15 A. No. The OG South did not appoint Marcek directly there, we did,
16 and he was part of the OG South. Yes, yes. In fact, it is a bit unclear
17 but there was some other considerations. He was -- he belonged to me
18 under the establishment and I wanted to deal with it before the
19 Guards Brigade left, and I appointed him so that he would be already in
20 place once the Guards Brigade leaves.
21 Q. Let me repeat my question because you did not answer it. So I'm
22 saying that before Jan Marcek was appointed by you, you were appointed
23 the town commander by OG South?
24 A. Yes. No, no, no. I am not talking about my appointment as the
25 town commander but the appointment of town commands, and I then issued my
1 own order appointing town commands in the Negoslavci, Mitnica, Ovcara --
2 well, I can't now enumerate all those villages but commands in all those
4 Q. And on the 19th of November, the way I understand it, you issued
5 this order appointing Marcek the commander of Ovcara?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what was your function at that time?
8 A. Brigade commander.
9 Q. And your area of responsibility included Ovcara?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 Colonel Vojnovic, this brings your testimony to an end. You are
15 now released as a witness. The Court Usher will escort you out of the
16 courtroom, and we thank you for coming to The Hague to assist us and we
17 wish you a safe journey home.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.24 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Monday, the
23 3rd day of June, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.