Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5923

 1                           Wednesday, 19 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Matthew Olmsted,

15     Thomas Laugel, Brendan Bresnahan.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

21             Can we go into closed session, please.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 5924

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  I remind you that you

 6     are still on your oath.

 7             Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           WITNESS:  GH-023 [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

13             I asked you yesterday at the end of the hearing about the weapons

14     that was transferred from the TO warehouses to JNA warehouses.  I think

15     it was done pursuant to the order of the then-Presidency of the SFRY.  Do

16     you remember that?

17        A.   I don't remember pursuant to what it was done, but it was in

18     keeping with the laws and regulations in force.

19        Q.   Do you know the subsequent fate of those weapons once the combat

20     activity began or immediately before that?  What happened to those

21     weapons?

22        A.   Those weapons were distributed to the local TO Staffs, probably

23     in -- under a previously made plan.  Each TO Staff was invited to receive

24     some weapons, the quantity of which depended on the number of men they --

25     they disposed with.  Those weapons had been placed in warehouses.

Page 5925

 1        Q.   Can you just tell me if there was a -- a sufficient quantity of

 2     weapons to arm the TO?

 3        A.   Since we're talking about infantry weapons, there was a

 4     sufficient quantity.  But some weapons were already in the possession of

 5     some TO members outside of the depots.

 6        Q.   Here's what I want to know:  When you say individual TO members,

 7     are you referring to the time before the conflict broke out in Croatia?

 8     Do you mean to say that they had some weapons that had been issued to

 9     them from the then-JNA?

10        A.   We've already mentioned that the weapons the people already had

11     was -- were older.  They weren't modern infantry weapons as could be

12     found in the depots of the TO.  I mentioned M48 rifles, Thompsons,

13     Spagins.  That is, older weapons that had been basically illegally

14     distributed.

15        Q.   I asked you about the relations between the JNA units in Baranja

16     and the TO.  Please tell me if the JNA influenced the activities of the

17     commands or headquarters of the TO in Baranja in any way, or did it have

18     any influence on its commander, Mr. Dobrokes?

19        A.   Since the -- since we're talking about a hierarchical system, the

20     Supreme Command is the command of the highest ranking unit, and the TO

21     Staff was not that unit in the -- in that region.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it seems my transcript stopped.  On both

23     screen.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  On both screens?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  On both screens.

Page 5926

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's not good.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no, no.  Sorry.  No, it's running on one

 3     screen.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah, yeah, yes.  It runs on the court screen so

 6     we can proceed.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One is running so we can proceed.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know if there were any JNA officers in

10     the headquarters of the Baranja TO?

11        A.   At the very beginning, that is, up until mid-September or early

12     October, there were higher-ranking officers.  And by that I mean majors,

13     lieutenant-colonels, and colonels who had come to assist, for it all to

14     be organised well, because there were many units and many men in a

15     relatively small area.

16        Q.   You said that two brigades were established in Baranja.  What was

17     the reason for that?

18        A.   There was a need to deploy units along the separation line which

19     was some 70 to 80 kilometres long in my estimate.  And given the natural

20     obstacles, also to reduce the cost of unit rotation, brigades were

21     established based on the geographic principle, depending on which area

22     they were supposed to hold or defend.  There was a Beli Manastir Brigade

23     and the Darda Brigade.  The former covered the Drava from the Hungarian

24     border to the Topolik farm in Bilje.  And the Darda Brigade held the

25     rest, including Kopacki Rit, the nature park, and some 25 kilometres more

Page 5927

 1     toward the Danube, that is, the Serbian border.  Although there were no

 2     real reasons to hold that territory, but the territory was partly marshy.

 3        Q.   My question may not have been perfectly phrased.  I actually

 4     wanted to know why the brigades had been established.  Given the fact

 5     that the JNA was there, why did you have to establish brigades, because

 6     brigades are relatively large units, after all.  Or, actually, I

 7     apologise.  When I said "you," I didn't mean you personally.

 8        A.   The Territorial Defence had the task of holding the separation

 9     line, or the front line.  The -- the JNA remained in Beli Manastir, the

10     units that had been there before, and the 36th Subotica Brigade deployed

11     in order to support the front line in case of need.

12        Q.   Was there dissatisfaction among the local population by the role

13     of the JNA at the time?

14        A.   I don't remember any instances of that.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 5805,

16     page 80.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll read this passage out in English.

18             [In English] "Q.  Very well.  And do you know that on the

19     6th of September, 1991, the inhabitants of Baranja formed two brigades

20     and one artillery division because they were dissatisfied with the

21     failure of the JNA to engage?  Is that right or not?

22             "A.  I don't know about the date, but what you said is right, is

23     true."

24             [Interpretation] Does this remind you, this is a statement of

25     yours.


Page 5928

 1        A.   Well, I'm not sure about the 6th of September.  That's the very

 2     beginning of the events in Baranja.  I am not sure that Bilje was already

 3     liberated.

 4        Q.   Do you know if any JNA member took part in the Bilje campaign in

 5     any way?

 6        A.   Yes, I think so.  There was a battery of rocket-launchers that

 7     provided artillery support.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5929











11 Pages 5929-5933 redacted. Private session.
















Page 5934

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 5935

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Considering that I did not attend a

 3     single cabinet session, I would not like to go into any descriptions.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We should move again into private session,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5936











11 Pages 5936-5937 redacted. Private session.
















Page 5938

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Among other things, you spoke about crimes being committed

 7     against the non-Serbian population.  You spoke about the stages in that

 8     development at the beginning of the war and later when the situation got

 9     stable with time.  I'm interested in that period.

10             You said that, for the most part, no significant measures were

11     taken to detect the perpetrators of those crimes.  Do you remember that?

12     What do you mean by that, "no significant measures"?

13        A.   Any murder that was discovered was processed in accordance with

14     the regulations.  Upon receiving information of such a crime, the police

15     went to the crime scene, a report was made, and these reports were

16     registered daily in the log-book of the Beli Manastir SUP.  The measures

17     taken were also entered.  Mostly unknown perpetrators were entered in the

18     official documents.

19             So the police would go to the crime scene, make a report, say

20     that the perpetrator was unknown.  And the crime police - and I don't

21     know how qualified they were - never really reached the stage of the

22     identification of the perpetrator and his or their processing.

23        Q.   Do you know of cases when perpetrators were identified?

24        A.   Yes, there were such cases.

25        Q.   And those cases were handed over to public prosecutor's offices

Page 5939

 1     and, one step further, to the courts; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I suppose that you cannot speak of any numbers, how many such

 4     cases there were.

 5        A.   No, I don't have any precise information about that.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 5940

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5941











11 Pages 5941-5943 redacted. Private session.
















Page 5944

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the end of 1992 or early 1992

20     [as interpreted] when the Red Berets arrived, they had, in the early

21     days, a very positive effect.  In Beli Manastir, it was extremely

22     difficult to put under control all the people carrying weapons, and also

23     a part of the unit that was called special SUP unit of Beli Manastir.  I

24     believe they were the greatest troublemakers involved in looting and

25     redistribution of abandoned properties, businesses, reselling vehicles,

Page 5945

 1     agricultural machinery, et cetera.  That unit, when they arrived,

 2     immediately showed their teeth to the local criminals.  At close

 3     quarters.  There were no beatings, but they slapped around a couple of

 4     local criminals, which immediately raised their rating and earned them

 5     respect.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I noticed -- just a moment.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move again into private session, please.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5946











11 Page 5946 redacted. Private session.















Page 5947

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Were you there at the time when the Croat army executed its

16     Operation Storm?

17        A.   Just before the beginning of Operation Storm, two or three days

18     before, I returned from that area to Baranja.

19        Q.   Do you know what impact that operation had on the Serbian people

20     there?

21        A.   I do.  I think everybody in the former Yugoslavia knows the

22     result of that operation; that is to say, the moving out of large numbers

23     of Serbs.

24        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions for you.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I've finished my


Page 5948

 1     cross-examination.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:

 5        Q.   Sir, I am going to go over a few topics rather quickly because I

 6     want to finish, hopefully, by the end of this session so that can you go

 7     home.

 8             First, today you were shown the ID card of someone by the name of

 9     Vasilije Mijovic.  Could you tell us, was he a leader of a particular

10     unit; and, if so, what was the unit?

11        A.   He was at the head of the --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

13             MR. OLMSTED:

14        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer?  The interpreters didn't

15     catch it.

16        A.   Vasilije Mijovic was in Baranja as commander of the Red Beret

17     unit, and I saw him in his second stint, when he was conducting training.

18     Speaking of 1992, I did not see him with that unit that had arrived and

19     was to be seen also in the yard of the SUP in Beli Manastir, as well as

20     the Tikves manor.

21        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  But, please try to keep your answers

22     as short as possible so that we can get through them.

23             Secondly, today you testified that unknown perpetrators of

24     murders, information about them were entered into official documents.

25     Can you tell us, were, in any of these cases of unknown perpetrators, the

Page 5949

 1     perpetrators in fact known to the police?

 2        A.   I think there were such cases as well.  The perpetrators later

 3     gave themselves up.

 4        Q.   Well, I'm not talking about perpetrators giving themselves up.

 5     You spoke about a lot of murders being committed by police perpetrators.

 6     At that time those crimes were committed, the police knew who those

 7     perpetrators were.  Isn't that the case?

 8        A.   The largest number, yes.

 9        Q.   And those cases were never fully investigated.

10        A.   Not until the reintegration.

11        Q.   Yesterday you were asked what positions Goran Hadzic held in

12     autumn of 1992.  Sir, can you tell us, did Mr. Hadzic hold a position in

13     the government of the Serbian Autonomous District of Eastern Slavonia,

14     Baranja, and Western Srem?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's leading.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  It's not, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Overruled.

18             MR. OLMSTED:

19        Q.   Sir, did you understand my question?

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't know where it is asked, this question.

22     When?

23             MR. OLMSTED:  This is at transcript page 5880.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yesterday's transcript, Mr. --

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour.  The witness was asked what

Page 5950

 1     positions that Goran Hadzic held in autumn of 1991.  And I'm asking the

 2     witness did Mr. Hadzic hold a position in the SAO government.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:

 5        Q.   Sir, could you answer the question.

 6        A.   According to this information, Mr. Hadzic was also president of

 7     SAO Krajina.  I cannot be specific about the time.

 8        Q.   You said SAO Krajina.  Could you be more specific about that?

 9     Because Krajina is -- is a bit vague.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's leading.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  I did not suggest an answer, Your Honours.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And I cannot see that the government was

13     mentioned on the indicated page.

14             MR. OLMSTED:

15        Q.   Sir, I'll ask you again, can you be more specific as to the SAO

16     Krajina.  What region?

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted --

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Asked and answered.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- we were discussing an objection.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  I apologise.  I thought -- I thought that the last

21     one was already dealt with, and -- with regard to my initial question and

22     now I'm only seeking clarification.  I apologise.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  I guess it's my need to try to push this to finish

25     it up.


Page 5951

 1        Q.   Sir, you said SAO Krajina.  Can you be specific as to the

 2     geographical region?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is -- it is enough -- it is precisely answered

 4     by the witness as SAO Krajina.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Overruled.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:

 7        Q.   Sir, could you please tell us the geographical region you were --

 8     you -- you meant.

 9        A.   I meant -- I have to agree with Mr. Zivanovic.  I said

10     SAO Krajina.  There was a Republic of Serbian Krajina and SAO Krajina.

11     SAO Krajina was the area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  That is

12     SAO Krajina.  As opposed to the Republic of Serbian Krajina, different

13     regions are involved.

14        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  I think we now have it clear.

15             Now, yesterday you were also asked - and this was around

16     transcript page 5884 - about the establishment of your village --

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, let's go into private session.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5952











11 Pages 5952-5955 redacted. Private session.
















Page 5956

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Witness, this is the end of your testimony.  We thank you


Page 5957

 1     very much for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.  You're now

 2     released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey home.

 3             The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

 4             Closed session, please.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14                           --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Just while the witness

17     is coming in, for the record to reflect that with the new witness we have

18     appearing for the Prosecution, Matthew Gillett, and legal intern,

19     Kathleen Childs.

20             MR. GILLETT:  And, Your Honours, one more note before the witness

21     is brought in.  You will have seen that there were a small number of new

22     documents added to the exhibit list distributed on Monday.  I understand

23     that the Defence has no objection to the documents apart from one report.

24     And if I could just check if that's the correct position.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President.  That is the correct


Page 5958

 1     position.  There is one document that is objected to.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  And should we address that before the witness comes

 3     in, just in case we need to discuss the detail of the document.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, could the witness wait for a moment,

 5     please.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Apologies.  I just thought that way it would be

 7     easier to address.

 8             The document is a report concerning events in Benkovac.  It's an

 9     UNPROFOR report that the witness provided to us during proofing.  And we

10     accept that it is late in the day for this report to be added, but if you

11     look at the contents of this report -- and we're talking about 6453 is

12     the 65 ter number, and it is in e-court.  It is a relatively succinct

13     report and quite clearly stated.  It was circulated to the Defence on

14     Monday.  Its main relevance is it concerns an event described in the

15     witness's statement in a bit of detail but it adds additional detail

16     including the role of Arkan in this event.  So that's why we say it is

17     relevant to this witness's evidence and we would seek to use it with him

18     on that basis.

19             We also know Your Honours' preference for using documents with

20     the appropriate witness, and given his involvement with the Benkovac

21     incident, we say that this is the appropriate witness for this document.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, to be clear, this would be an

24     application by the Prosecution, first of all, to add the document to the

25     65 ter list because it hasn't figured on the 65 ter list until now.  The

Page 5959

 1     first disclosure that we received of this document was Monday.  It's

 2     13 pages in length, covers a variety of different subjects, mentions a

 3     wide range of details and facts, not just those referenced by my learned

 4     friend.  And, indeed, it is late in the day.  There's no B/C/S

 5     translation.  My client hasn't had a chance to read it, and all in all,

 6     that adds up to, I would say, a rather unfair and tardy procedure.

 7             So we would oppose even adding it to the list for use in court.

 8             Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Just one brief response, which is, the report, as I

10     read it, is very concentrated on the one incident at a hotel in Benkovac.

11     If there is anything additional in there, we certainly wouldn't seek to

12     rely on that.  It's simply its relevance to the events.  It's an

13     hour-by-hour summary of the events in relation to an incident that's

14     described in the witness's statement at paragraphs 101 to 105.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For that document, the request is denied.  The

17     request to admit to the 65 ter list.

18             What are the other 65 ter numbers, Mr. Gillett?

19             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             The other ones are 6452, which is a photograph; two video-clips,

21     which are 4809.8 and 4809.9; two maps, which are 2563 and 2316; and then

22     an additional video-clip, 4921.1.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  So I understood that there is no

24     objection to admit them to the 65 ter list, Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  My understanding, Mr. President, is that those

Page 5960

 1     items are already on the 65 ter list.  The only addition involved here is

 2     their addition to the exhibit list with the witness.  I may be -- I may

 3     stand to be corrected but I believe that's right.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Probably I misunderstood.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  No, I should have clarified.  One of those

 6     documents, a photograph, is not on the 65 ter list.  It was also provided

 7     to us by the witness.  This is 6452.  It's a photo of the witness and

 8     some other people that he provided to us on Monday during proofing.

 9             So we would seek to use that as well.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No -- no objection, Mr. Gosnell --

11             MR. GOSNELL:  No objection to that one.  Thank you,

12     Mr. President.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that document, 65 ter 6452, is admitted on

14     the -- to be added on the 65 ter list.  And we do not need to take a

15     decision on the other -- on the other documents.  They are on the

16     65 ter list.

17             MR. GILLETT: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness may be brought in.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry for the delay, Mr. Witness.

21             Could I ask you to tell us your name and date of birth.

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, my name is John McElligott, and I was

23     born on the 6th of November, 1945.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You are about to make the

25     solemn declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the


Page 5961

 1     truth.  I have to tell you that you expose yourself to the penalty of

 2     perjury should you give untruthful information to the Tribunal.

 3             Could I now ask you to make the solemn declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 5     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  JOHN GERARD McELLIGOTT

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated,

 8     Mr. McElligott.

 9             Mr. Gillett, your witness.

10             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

11                           Examination by Mr. Gillett:

12        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Can you hear me loud and clear?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, did you provide an amalgamated statement to

15     the Prosecution of this Tribunal in 2012?

16        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

17             MR. GILLETT:  At this stage, the amalgamated statement

18     65 ter number is 6336.  That's tab 1.

19             Now, there's a number of documents to be used with this witness,

20     so we've prepared a binder which I've discussed with my learned friend

21     prior to proceedings, and with Your Honours' leave, I'd provide that to

22     the witness as I understand he finds it preferable to work with paper

23     documents.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

25             MR. GILLETT:

Page 5962

 1        Q.   Now, sir, if we can turn to the document that's numbered 6363.

 2     And do you see that document in front of you there; and does that appear

 3     to be the statement that you gave to the Prosecution in 2012?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   And when you arrived in The Hague this week to testify were you

 6     again given an opportunity to read through it and make any corrections?

 7        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Now, I understand there's a small number of corrections, so if we

 9     first turn to paragraphs 9 and 10, where you refer to your period of

10     service with UNCIVPOL.

11             You state that you started on 2nd October 1992 as chief of

12     operations.  What date did you finish your complete service with

13     UNCIVPOL?

14        A.   On the 1st of November, Your Honours.

15        Q.   And what year was that?

16        A.   1993.

17        Q.   After your initial position as chief of operations, you state

18     that you became Chief of Staff.  During what period were you Chief of

19     Staff?

20        A.   My estimation is that it was from March or April of 1993 until I

21     was appointed deputy commissioner on the 27th of May, 1993.  And I'm

22     basing that on the fact there was rotation at that time and I replaced

23     the person who did rotate home.  So it's broad in the sense of date.

24     That's -- I'm basing it on the rotation and one did take place in March

25     or April.

Page 5963

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If we look now at paragraph 113 of your statement,

 2     you refer to a report there, which is 65 ter 1253.  This is

 3     paragraph 113.  And that report, we don't need to go to it, but it refers

 4     to the militia as showing devotion to Martic.  And then at the end of

 5     that report, the report states that the militia are not his private army

 6     but the translation on the ground of the new shaped Krajina state in

 7     progress.

 8             If we look at paragraph 113 of your statement, the second-last

 9     sentence of that paragraph, states that the militia is referred to as

10     Martic's private army and it's referring to that document.  So does that

11     need to be corrected?

12        A.   Yes.  The word "not" needs to be inserted.

13        Q.   Thank you.  If we then turn to paragraph 131 of your statement,

14     in this paragraph, you refer to a document concerning meetings in Osijek

15     and Vukovar.  And that's document 5284.  Would you like to clarify that

16     reference to those meetings?

17        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  The meetings in Osijek were on the Croatian

18     side.  They were outside of the United Nations protected areas, so they

19     were with the Croatian police.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now other than that, is there anything else in the

21     document that needs to be changed?

22        A.   No, my lord.

23        Q.   And do you affirm its accuracy and truthfulness?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

25        Q.   And if you were asked about these same matters today would you

Page 5964

 1     provide the same answers, in substance?

 2        A.   Yes, I would.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  We tender the amalgamated statement 6363 and the

 4     associated exhibits.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement will become Exhibit

 7     P2168.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.  And I understand we will deal the

10     associated exhibits in the usual procedure.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Sir, turning back to the start of your statement at paragraph 5,

14     here, you describe your work with the police force of Ireland, the Garda.

15     Now what type of crimes did you deal with in your work in Ireland?

16        A.   I spent my entire service as an operational police officer and

17     we -- I progressed and at the early stages I dealt with what would be

18     normal crimes.  I served a period as a detective in a local town where I

19     would deal with day-to-day crime ranging from burglary to theft, general

20     crime.  As I progressed I got -- I eventually retired from the National

21     Bureau of Criminal Investigation, which is our national bureau for crime,

22     serious crime, and in that period of about ten years, I was engaged in

23     murder investigations, organised crime, and basically anything that was

24     very serious nature in crime throughout the country.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Could I ask you when you were --

Page 5965

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Excuse me, Mr. Gillett.  Could I ask both of you,

 2     witness and Prosecution, to slow down in order to assist interpreters.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.  Indeed.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, at paragraph 17 of your statement, you refer to the key

 5     United Nations principles of objectivity and impartiality.  How did the

 6     UNCIVPOL mission seek to adhere to these principles?

 7        A.   From a personnel point of view, we deployed our monitors on a

 8     multi-national basis so that you had a diverse range of views and a

 9     diverse exposure of cultures to the policing and the monitoring.  We

10     monitored what was going on and how they did their job.  We were also

11     subject to scrutiny by -- through our reporting by the civil affairs end

12     of the mission and indeed the military viewed what we did.  There were

13     also numerous outside agencies visiting the mission, including legal

14     professionals who went into the mission field, spoke to people, were

15     interviewed by our -- our monitors interviewed by them.  So they had a

16     view of what we were doing and it would be a professional assessment that

17     they would be making as well, so we were subject to a scrutiny on a

18     number of independent fields apart from what we were doing ourselves.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned the humanitarian principle of

20     protecting of life in that paragraph.  How did that principle guide your

21     work?

22        A.   The Vance Plan would have been the foundation for performing our

23     work and I suppose the UN Declaration of Human Rights would be a basis

24     for establishing that Vance Plan principle, and I suppose some of the

25     basic human rights involved here would be that everybody is born equal,

Page 5966

 1     that people have the right to life, liberty, and safety of their person,

 2     that they are prevented from being intimidated, that they have the right

 3     of a nationality, and indeed, that they would not be tortured.  They are

 4     some of the fundamental ones that I would like at.  There were many, many

 5     more within that but they were key ones to consider.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And I will ask you to give a slight pause after my

 7     next question for the transcript to catch up.

 8             If we shift to paragraph 51 of the statement, you mention

 9     travelling to the sectors to visit each UNPOL station.  Now, you mention

10     also, later in the statement, travelling to Sector East.  Do you recall

11     other UN officials that you met in Sector East?

12        A.   I met numerous officials in Sector East, and I suppose that

13     they -- again, the key link apart from the CIVPOL element with any of the

14     missions would be the civil affairs head, who in Sector East was

15     Mrs. Nega [phoen].  She was the director of civil affairs in Sector East.

16        Q.   And who was the UNCIVPOL sector chief in Sector East?

17        A.   At the outset, there was Superintendent Kioko [phoen] from Kenya.

18     Then there was a French officer.  And there a -- Kjell Moe from Norway or

19     Sweden.

20        Q.   Shifting to paragraph 87 of your statement, in this part of the

21     statement, you describe what you call the regular police who number 7.000

22     and you also refer to a different group of 16.000 police.  Referring to

23     the, what you call, regular 7.000 group of officers, you say that some of

24     them were professional and could be dealt with.  Did the proportion of

25     those officers that could be dealt with change while you were serving

Page 5967

 1     with UNCIVPOL?

 2        A.   I do not know the exact change that took place but there is a

 3     report in -- from the Commissioner Johansen covering changes in personnel

 4     so that we have been given the figure 7.000 as being the established

 5     police force within the mission who would engage in the policing within

 6     the UNPAs.  How many were actually there, I don't think we ever

 7     established that.  But the -- our dealings were with -- our key dealings

 8     were with this group of people, the professional police officers.

 9        Q.   Aside from the specific numbers, the exact numbers, was there any

10     trend that you picked up in terms of the change in the number of officers

11     you could deal with, as opposed to police officers that you could not

12     deal with?

13        A.   There was -- overall there was -- tended to be a switching on and

14     switching off of co-operation.  Very often the good relationships and the

15     good work was managed through individuals who were helpful and who were

16     disposed to being involved.  Some of these people, they were genuine,

17     strong police officers, and it was clear that they were dedicated to

18     doing their job and to openly engaging with us.

19        Q.   And in terms of those genuine, strong police officers, did the

20     number as a proportion increase or decrease during your service as far as

21     you observed?

22        A.   There was always a switching on and switching off as to

23     individuals.  There were -- like for my own part, I was familiar with

24     particular areas where there was good relationships, continuous

25     relationships in some cases, and there were cases where the personnel

Page 5968

 1     changed and the relationships and the functions changed as a consequence

 2     of it.

 3        Q.   If we now look to 65 ter document 5404, this is a document

 4     described in various places in your statement.  It's a report concerning

 5     crimes committed against Croats in Sector South.

 6             Now if we look at page 2 of this report --

 7             MR. GILLETT:  And, Your Honours, because the witness is dealing

 8     with the paper versions, I'll refer to firstly the e-court page but then

 9     the printed ERN numbers that he'll be seeing on the physical pages.

10             So this -- this page 2 should end 8225.

11        Q.   Now, if we look at this page, we see it's an introduction to the

12     report, and it notes that there was a lack of standardized crime

13     categories.  It notes that the full number of victims and crimes may not

14     necessarily be reported and that multiple crimes are sometimes reported

15     as one incident and classified as the most serious crime.

16             Of the crimes that are addressed in this report, which would be

17     the most serious one?

18        A.   Theft has the highest number -- the -- the more serious one is

19     murder.

20        Q.   Now if we turn over the page to page 3, which should end 8226, we

21     see a number -- it should -- there should be a list of the numbers of

22     crimes.  I believe you're looking at it.

23             And we see that there was a large number of incidents of arson.

24     What effect would arson have on the victims?

25        A.   Arson, it had a double impact in the sense that the property of

Page 5969

 1     generally a residence was destroyed and it seriously impacted on the

 2     homeowner returning to their home.  It also had the consequential effect

 3     of frightening the community realising that these activities were taking

 4     place.  I think in some instances a number of houses could be burned in

 5     the one occasion, so it had an a dual impact, not only on the individual

 6     who was the owner, but on the neighbours and in the locality as well as

 7     to what may happen to them.

 8        Q.   And we see other crimes listed here, and in other reports, like

 9     intimidation, theft with a weapon, robbery.  What kind of effect would

10     they have on the victims?

11        A.   Again, crimes committed against -- in many cases, they were very

12     old people and being faced with a firearm is a frightening situation in

13     any circumstance.  So they would -- many of them were terrorised.

14        Q.   In terms of the numbers of expulsions, if you look at the report,

15     the incidents recorded are relatively low.  However, in light of the

16     introduction to the report, what -- what would you say about those

17     recorded incidents listed as expulsion?

18        A.   Expulsions, it -- it wouldn't be categorised as a normal-type

19     crime in, I'd say, the very vast majority of the police monitors'

20     countries.  It would be a rare offence to be deemed a criminal offence.

21     But what -- how it comes to light here is you have a very small statistic

22     perhaps because it was very clear in the evidence secured at the scene

23     what -- what you did have is a lot of people who turned up at a UN office

24     or a police station surrendering themselves to leave the area, and it was

25     basically as a consequence of all that they had endured over a long

Page 5970

 1     period and sustained period of time, where they had been subjected to

 2     abuse, what we've talked about, burning of houses, people coming into

 3     their villages and shooting it up, their neighbours being murdered, and

 4     spend periods out into the forest at night sleeping.  They were cold in

 5     the winter and they could endure no more, sir.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  If we look at some of the specific incidents, and

 7     I'll take you to them in a minute, we see references to the uniforms worn

 8     by the perpetrators.  You don't need to look at it right now, but for

 9     instance, there's one on e-court page 10 to 11 and it's case number P1 --

10     1793, which refers to persons wearing militia uniform carrying out

11     looting.  Then the following case just refers to uniformed men.

12             On what basis -- on the basis of what information did these

13     UNCIVPOL reports establish the identity and/or uniforms of perpetrators?

14        A.   These would come from the victims themselves --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  I object.  I think the question is a bit too vague.

17     There's a wide range of reports and potentially a wide range of sources

18     of information.  So if we could narrow it slightly, I think it would be

19     helpful and a more appropriate question.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett.

21             MR. GILLETT:  I've referred to this example.  I can ask in

22     relation to this example to make it more narrow, if that pleases

23     Your Honours.

24        Q.   The question, sir, and I've just read the example, is on what

25     basis -- and let's say in this report, on what basis would the uniforms

Page 5971

 1     be established of these recorded incidents?

 2        A.   It would be based on the account given by, in some cases, the

 3     victim.  Other witnesses in the vicinity who happened to see them.  And

 4     that is the account coming from the people resident in the locality.

 5     They would be perhaps -- spent their lifetime in the area.

 6        Q.   And from the other reports that you've seen and you've reviewed

 7     in your statement, on what basis would the uniforms or the identity of

 8     perpetrators, where they are mentioned, be established?

 9        A.   I'm sorry, I misunderstand your question.  Could you repeat.

10        Q.   On the basis of the reports that you've seen in preparation for

11     your evidence, where they refer to uniforms, on what basis would they

12     establish what the uniforms were?

13        A.   You're talking about sources independent of this report.

14        Q.   Yes.  Other reports that you've reviewed.

15        A.   They would be based on reports from the military who saw people

16     in uniform.  At different times they had difficulties in distinguishing

17     one group from another.  There were people who were changing uniforms, or

18     monitors saw people on the ground whom they knew wearing different

19     uniforms on different occasions.  And the military made reference in one

20     particular report to where they were carrying similar ID cards and the

21     almost similar uniforms, and it was difficult to distinguish who was who.

22        Q.   Now, how did your UNCIVPOL monitors identify which uniforms

23     belonged to which units?

24        A.   At the outset the -- what we call the regular police or the

25     people -- the professional police officers, as we referred to them, and

Page 5972

 1     within the 7.000 figure quoted, they wore a blue-type uniform.  It would

 2     be what I consider a normal-style police uniform.  And the other people

 3     had the outset a blue uniform as well and at some stage along the way

 4     that changed to a green uniform at some point, and you had a coming and

 5     going of uniforms.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  On this subject, I'd ask now ask for video 4921.1

 7     to be played.  And if we could play that from 30 minutes and 24 seconds,

 8     and then pause at 30 minutes and 32 seconds.

 9             This is 65 ter 4921.1.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The day of security celebrated in

12     Krajina.  Three years ago there was a first larger assembly of the

13     people, a mass protest against the Croatian top leadership."

14             MR. GILLETT:

15        Q.   Sir, if you look at this image, do you recognise anybody shown?

16        A.   I do, Your Honours.  The gentleman second from the left as

17     Milan Martic.

18        Q.   And what is he wearing?

19        A.   He is wearing what I would regard as a police uniform.

20             MR. GILLETT:  If we could skip to 34 minutes and play for

21     5 seconds there.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. GILLETT:

24        Q.   Sir, do you recognise any of the uniforms worn by these men?

25        A.   The gentleman on the left is wearing a police uniform.

Page 5973

 1        Q.   And could you describe that for the record.

 2        A.   In the sense it's a -- what I call a navy blue.  The sleeves are

 3     folded up to a particular level.  They wear a beret and it has insignia

 4     on the shoulder.

 5        Q.   Mm-hm.  Do you recognise the green uniform?

 6        A.   That particular one to me is a military uniform.  There is an

 7     another lighter green, what we call -- with kind of a tiger strip to it.

 8     It's not that particular type.  It's a lighter or a green -- it's a -- a

 9     different type material, I would say.  Which ... is not -- is not the one

10     I'm talking about here.

11             MR. GILLETT:  Could we now continue playing to 34:48, which

12     should be the end of the clip.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Nikola Borsac, Jovo Mirkovic.

15     Members of the Secretariat of the Interior from Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac,

16     Drnis, Velika and Kistanje, were yesterday issued permanent contracts of

17     employment.  In the words of the Interior Secretary Ilija Prijic, these

18     contracts are the result of demonstrated skill and expertise.  Members of

19     the Knin Interior Secretariat were addressed by Commander Dragan Karna

20     who wished them still better results and stressed that their role in

21     peacetime was great and in wartime still greater, while those contracts

22     were the best proof of acknowledgment for their efforts so far."

23             MR. GILLETT:

24        Q.   The reporter notes that the secretary of the Secretariat of the

25     Interior, Ilija Prijic, said that the police were issued with new

Page 5974

 1     contracts.  Who was Ilija Prijic?  Did you have any interactions with

 2     him?

 3        A.   I didn't have any interaction with him but I was aware that he

 4     was a senior police officer in Knin.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would tender this video into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2169, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. McElligott, going back to the report that we were looking at

12     earlier, which is 5404, this is the report on crimes in Sector South, if

13     we look at page 51 in e-court.

14             MR. GILLETT:  And I'll ask that we bring that up on e-court.

15        Q.   It's -- in the hard copy it will be the page ending 8274.

16             Now this is case number P2174/92.  And it describes an incident

17     where three armed males in militia uniforms went to the victim's house

18     and stole food and furniture.  My question is:  How serious in the

19     circumstances at the time would the theft of food and furniture be?

20        A.   Food was a significant theft and while it may have a little value

21     in monetary terms, taken from elderly folk, perhaps in a rural area, in

22     the middle of winter when weather conditions could be snowbound, they

23     were literal bound to their house, and taking their food was taking their

24     basic means of sustenance from them, and they would have limited access

25     to the outside world to go shopping, let's put it that -- they tend to be

Page 5975

 1     self-sustained within their own household for the winter period.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And I'll ask you to speak clearly for the transcript

 3     and, again, to pause after my questions.  It's because we speak the same

 4     language.

 5             If we turn to page 65 in e-court, and for you this will be the

 6     page ending 8288.

 7             And there we'll see case number S-233/92.  In this case, this is

 8     S-233/92, the Knin militia are reported to have told Croats to leave

 9     their houses or be killed and not to report this to CIVPOL.  How willing

10     did you find Croat civilians to report crimes to UNCIVPOL?

11        A.   Our monitors policed the area, patrolled the areas, maintained

12     contact with the communities, and through those contacts they established

13     events that were going on.  Sometimes the victim would confide in them or

14     tell them of the circumstances they found themselves, and having done so,

15     they would be reluctant to go and report the matter to the police.  And

16     very often it was through encouragement on our monitors' part that

17     brought them to that point.  And I have no doubts that even while there

18     was a reluctance to go, our monitors would bring the matter any way

19     because of the fact that it was a serious crime.  But -- they were

20     reluctant to go to the police.

21        Q.   And just for the record, when you say "they were reluctant to go

22     to the police," which police were you referring to --

23        A.   Talking about the police force with the -- the established police

24     force within the UNPROFOR area.  That would be the -- what we call the --

25     the -- the police charged with the responsibility of policing.  That's

Page 5976

 1     the 7.000 group, to refer to them in broad terms.

 2        Q.   Could we now look to 65 ter document 1243, please.  And this

 3     should be tab 8.

 4             And this is an associated exhibit which is discussed at

 5     paragraph 92 of the statement.

 6             Now, if we turn to page 2 of this exhibit.

 7        A.   What number is it for me?

 8        Q.   For you it is 1243.  It will be in the first bunch of exhibits.

 9        A.   I'll just ...

10        Q.   Yeah, if we turn to the second page which should end 6051 and we

11     look at the -- there's a long bullet point at the bottom of this page.

12     Now if you see that, what is UNCIVPOL in this report describing there?

13        A.   In most of the criminal cases recorded during the past recent

14     days, members of the special police were found directly involved.  The

15     villages nearby their deployment area along the Hungarian border, i.e.,

16     Dubosevica Knezevo --

17        Q.   Sorry to interrupt, Mr. McElligott.  That's sufficient.

18             Then if you look to the last sentence of this same bullet point,

19     and you don't need to read it out loud, can you tell us how this fits

20     with your experience in the sectors?  The last sentence of the same

21     bullet point.

22        A.   Of this page?

23        Q.   Yes.

24        A.   Again, it refers to people being murdered with the objective --

25     presumably the objective was to get possession of their houses.

Page 5977

 1     Reaching others -- freeing them out for other people.  Again, the murders

 2     are geared to getting hold of properties.

 3        Q.   How does that fit with your experience where you were posted in

 4     the region?

 5        A.   There has been a -- there was number of murders and there is no

 6     doubt -- like it wasn't just one person being killed in many cases.  It

 7     was on some occasions families being killed, and there's no doubt it was

 8     a serious act of -- an extremely serious act of brutality and

 9     intimidation.  Not only to get hold of a property but literally to

10     frighten the community.  Such an event would spread over a very wide

11     range and have a serious impact on people.  It would generate a high

12     level of publicity as well within the community.

13        Q.   And in terms of your overview of the various reports that you

14     were involved in, how did the criminality that you observed in the -- in

15     the former Yugoslavia when you were there differ from your experience in

16     your domestic jurisdiction in Ireland?

17        A.   In Ireland, or I suppose in general terms, the crime or

18     intrusions into houses in particular tended to be covert.  Whereas, in

19     this instance, there was often a very high visibility of the intruders.

20     Quite frequently they have been there in numbers and in high instances.

21     Of the 490 figures that are quoted there, almost 48 per cent of them have

22     suspects being seen or described at the scene.  And that is an unusual

23     feature.  So I think one could deduce that they weren't there just to

24     commit a crime.  They were there to be seen and to send a message by

25     their very presence as well.

Page 5978

 1             So I think that was a serious element to many of those crimes.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you some questions about an incident in Benkovac

 3     now.

 4             And in your statement, at paragraphs 101 to 105, you describe how

 5     UNCIVPOL monitors were taken hostage in Benkovac in January 1993.  You

 6     refer to an individual called Mitchell.  What was his role in this --

 7     this situation?

 8        A.   He was a CIVPOL monitor based there at that particular time.  I

 9     was there on 21st, on the night of the 21st of January, and he was one of

10     the police monitors attached to Benkovac station.

11        Q.   You also refer to an individual called Martinovic.  What -- who

12     was he and what was his role throughout this incident?

13        A.   Martinovic, he was a member of the Knin authorities.  Our

14     monitors -- on the morning of the 22nd of January, there was an incursion

15     by the Croatian side and shelling occurred at the -- many people came to

16     the CIVPOL station which was in the hotel, and at one point, the monitors

17     in the station were all taken hostage.  They were -- that is what did

18     happen to them.  I was there at the time.  And with a Danish officer and

19     another Irish officer, we were attached to the UNPROFOR headquarters in

20     Zagreb and we had attended the locality the previous day for a meeting.

21             So they managed -- or Mr. Mitchell and the local police chief,

22     the militia chief negotiated our release out of the place.  In other

23     words, we were facilitated to leave, and as we were leaving, I was

24     confronted initially by the civilians who didn't want us to go.  They

25     felt that we were there -- that they needed us as a means of saving them

Page 5979

 1     and protecting them, and these were Serbian people.  After further

 2     negotiation it was decided that we could go again and I was then

 3     approached by a man with a gun, an AK-47 who demanded that I turn off the

 4     engine and leave my vehicle.

 5             After further negotiation, it was again agreed and indeed with

 6     the goodwill of the local militia chief that we were allowed to go and we

 7     left the area and got back to Zagreb.  Over the following eight days, our

 8     monitors were held hostage.  They were on the third floor of the hotel,

 9     and they were confined.  On occasions they were utilised to convey people

10     to hospital in their vehicles and on each occasion they were under armed

11     escort.  When they went to the hospital, they asked if they could go down

12     to the local station and again they were refused permission to go, so it

13     was very clear that they were under control.

14             Now in addition to that, prior to the event, the local militia

15     chief told them that part of a plan in the event of an incursion was that

16     they would be taken hostage.  And that he would be responsible for it.

17     Indeed, it emerged that he was doing under threat of life from his own

18     people, from the authorities, his own authorities.

19             On the following Saturday, or Friday, I returned to Benkovac with

20     the CIVPOL commissioner and Sameer Bino, who was attached to

21     headquarters.  We went to Knin initially and that's where I met

22     Mr. Martinovic and he agreed to bring us to Benkovac.  And we went there,

23     and after discussion with him we got to a position where we got to see

24     the monitors on the top floor.  At that point, he was agreeable to

25     releasing them all.  And we could --

Page 5980

 1        Q.   Sorry, sorry, Mr. McElligott.  If I could just cut in there to

 2     focus on one question arising from your answer which is:  Why were they

 3     keeping the UNCIVPOL monitors hostage there?

 4        A.   They were there as human shields.  They were on the top floor of

 5     the hotel.  When I left initially there were lots of civilians there, but

 6     it -- I know that over a day or so that changed from being one of full of

 7     soldiers and it became a military base.  From what I know, they

 8     established their antennae and so forth on the roof and operations room

 9     in the hotel, and they had also secured a number of missile launchers in

10     the vicinity of the hotel.  So our people were there to protect them.

11             Now, having gone to Zagreb, having assessed the risk myself and

12     spoken to Cedric Thornberry, we made an approach to our -- advised the

13     Croatian authorities that we had a difficulty and told them the situation

14     in respect of our monitors and the risks and dangers that they could

15     cause by indulging in an attack on the hotel.

16        Q.   In relation to what you've just mentioned about contacting

17     Mr. Thornberry, to what level in the UN was this situation reported up

18     to?

19        A.   Over the following days, I understand it was taken to many

20     levels, and there was no success, nothing was happening, and out of my

21     own initiative at that point, I decided it was time to go back and start

22     something myself, and -- with the commissioner, and Sameer Bino from

23     Jordan, we went to Knin, and it is then we met Mr. Martinovic.  And in

24     fairness to him, he was -- he was helpful.  He came out with us, and I

25     got to the point where we secured a release for 21 monitors and came

Page 5981

 1     downstairs.  And in the course of that period, the message came back to

 2     us there was nobody being released, and that, indeed, we were now

 3     becoming hostages ourselves and that was coming from further down the

 4     corridor, in other words, Martinovic didn't have the final say.

 5        Q.   Well, on that note, who was further down the corridor?  Who did

 6     have the final say on these matters?

 7        A.   I was not conscious of it at that time, but subsequently I

 8     learned that Arkan had it -- was there and actually had returned at about

 9     4.45, I think, and it was around this time that things changed, and it

10     was clear from the reactions of Mr. Martinovic that he was in

11     difficulties.

12             And we had to sit out for a period and I suppose start to

13     negotiate again, and again Mr. Martinovic, with his help, got us to a

14     point where they were willing to release ten of our monitors and the

15     remainder were to remain and we had the option of replacing them with

16     fresh people.  So --

17        Q.   Okay, Mr. McElligott --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could the witness come

19     closer to the microphone, please.

20             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you, indeed.

21             If we could now play video 4809.8, please.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Concerning the intervention of the

24     chief for civilian affairs Cedric Thornberry with our organs due to the

25     detention of 21 policemen in Benkovac, Goran Hadzic, the president of the

Page 5982

 1     Republic of Serbian Krajina, at the international press centre in

 2     Belgrade, said that all the policemen were in the Kamen hotel, together

 3     with many refugees, only for their protection.  Commenting the latest

 4     aggression against the hydropower plant, Goran Hadzic said it was a

 5     Croatian plan, the plan of Croatian authorities in the latest aggression

 6     against Serbian Krajina.  In the latest days of that aggression, 180 Serb

 7     civilians were killed, mainly elderly and children and women, and many

 8     Serbian soldiers were killed."

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not find the transcript

10     for this video.

11             MR. GILLETT:

12        Q.   Mr. McElligott, is he describing the same situation that you've

13     just described?

14        A.   Yes, he refer 21 monitors and we had 21 on this occasion, so ...

15     and the hotel Kamen as well.  I had mentioned it in one of my reports as

16     well on which -- on which I reported.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. GILLETT:  If we could now play video 4809.9, please.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Did the booths receive transcripts for these

20     videos?  We don't have them.

21             MR. GILLETT:  The transcripts should be in e-court.  Apologies.

22     If we may have a second.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. GILLETT:  We understand that they've been distributed this

25     morning.  The transcripts ...

Page 5983

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MR. GILLETT:  We can redistribute them, if you would like.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's up to the interpreters.  Do you have them or

 4     not?

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  We apologise if they were distributed, but we

 6     don't have them on the desk.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's redistribute it.

 8             MR. GILLETT:  They could be attached to the same transcript for

 9     4809, because we broke into it two clips.  But we can redistribute them

10     now.

11             Why don't we come back to this after the break, our second

12     video-clip.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.

15        Q.   Mr. McElligott, in the first video-clip that we just saw, Hadzic

16     is reported as stating that the UNCIVPOL monitors are free and have been

17     staying there for their own protection.  Is that correct?

18        A.   No, Your Honours.  Very clearly they were held.  And as I said,

19     on the evening I left, I only was able to secure 11.  I managed to get

20     one more on humanitarian grounds.  And Mr. Martinovic was the man who

21     facilitated that for me.  I left with 11, went back to Knin.  And there I

22     had further discussions with Jeannie Peterson, who was the head of civil

23     affairs, and she brought me to meet Mr. Spanovic.  I understand that he

24     was the minister for defence at the time, and we went to his home and

25     raised the issue with him.  And again, having had discussions with him,

Page 5984

 1     he agreed that he would have the monitors available to us on the

 2     following morning at about 8.00.  And I asked him if I could go with him

 3     in the morning, he said, No problem, that I didn't need to go, he will

 4     deliver them to me.  And that did happen the following morning.  And,

 5     again, looking at what happened in the notes from the hotel, Arkan

 6     approached our monitor Jim Mitchell and gave him a rather flimsy reason

 7     for why he was now releasing him.

 8             So I have no doubt that Mr. Spanovic spoke with him and I would

 9     say directed him to release our people.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we tender the first video-clip,

12     4809.8.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2970 [sic], Your Honours.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

17             Could we now get 65 ter document --

18             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  Just to correct the transcript,

19     2170.  Thank you.

20             MR. GILLETT:  Could we get 65 ter document 6452.  And this the

21     photograph that was added this morning, to the 65 ter list.

22             That's 65 ter document 6452.

23        Q.   Can you see the picture there?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

25        Q.   And who is shown in this photograph?

Page 5985

 1        A.   I am the one wearing the UN uniform.  The man on the right is the

 2     local police, the chief of militia.  I understand his name is Slobodan

 3     V-u-j-k-o.  And the man on the left is also one of the police.  I'm not

 4     sure if he is attached to Benkovac, I hadn't met him before.  And the

 5     lady is -- was our interpreter.

 6        Q.   And --

 7        A.   This photograph was taken subsequent to the hostage taking.  I

 8     went back to Benkovac to meet this man.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. GILLETT:  We'll tender that photograph for admission.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2171.  Thank you.

13             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Turning to some new documents that relate to issues arising in

15     your statement, firstly, if we could look at 65 ter document 1320, so if

16     you turn to 65 ter document 1320.  And as you're looking, I'll explain.

17     This is a cable and it's a follow-up letter relating to the investigation

18     of expulsions perpetrated in Tovarnik and other towns.  It's 1320.

19        A.   I don't seem to have 132 --

20        Q.   It will be in the second lot of documents which are in the second

21     batch.

22        A.   Oh, yeah, okay.

23             MR. GILLETT:  And the same expulsions are described in one of the

24     associated exhibits to the witness's statement at paragraph 122.

25        Q.   Now, looking at page 1 of this document, the last sentence on

Page 5986

 1     page 1 says that this dossier provided, in the opinion of police

 2     commissioner Johansen, a basis for the successful prosecution of six

 3     persons."

 4             Did you know Johansen?

 5        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  He was the CIVPOL commissioner when I took up

 6     duty in Zagreb and I had also known him from Namibia mission.

 7        Q.   If we look at page 4, which will end in 1955, it's the last page,

 8     it states here -- this is the last page of the same document.  Of the --

 9     of -- 1320 --

10        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

11        Q.   The last page.

12        A.   I just have -- oh, it's on the back.  Apologies.

13        Q.   Now it states here that the commissioner of police has concluded

14     that there is convincing evidence of serious criminality on the part of

15     local officials and that these include members of the same police forces

16     that are charged with protecting the inhabitants of Sector East under the

17     law.

18             Can I ask first:  How experienced was Commissioner Johansen?

19        A.   He was a senior police officer from his own country, Norway, and

20     he also had quite experience in the UN.  He was in Namibia, saw that

21     mission through from beginning to end, and he had considerable experience

22     at this point in -- in -- in the UNPROFOR mission.  And he was a senior

23     officer from his own country.

24        Q.   And looking to the signature at the bottom of the page, who is

25     that?

Page 5987

 1        A.   That is Cedric Thornberry.  He was the director of civil affairs

 2     attached to headquarters.

 3        Q.   And do you recognise that signature?

 4        A.   Yes, I do, Your Honour.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  We tender that for admission.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2172.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you very much.

10             Could we now turn to 5952.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  -- I'm sorry, I rise somewhat tardily in respect of

14     this document.

15             Actually, 65 ter 01320 appears to contain three different

16     documents and I believe what's been referred to is the first document and

17     then the -- I can only assume what may be an attachment.  But I see there

18     that there is another document from the Republic of Croatia.

19             So we would object to that second document.  In other words, the

20     two documents that have been referred to by the witness, there's no

21     objection.  It's just the third document to which there is no reference,

22     we would object to that, the admission of that particular document.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would it be helpful if parties would discuss that

24     during the next break?

25             MR. GILLETT:  We can certainly do that, Your Honour.

Page 5988

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  I'll move to the next document quickly prior to the

 3     break.  This is 5952.  It should be in that same second batch of

 4     documents.

 5        Q.   And while you're getting to that, this is an UNPROFOR report and

 6     it refers to UNCIVPOL operations in Ilok and Sector East.

 7             Now, if we look at page 1 --

 8        A.   5952.

 9        Q.   Yes.  If we look at page 1, at the second and third paragraphs of

10     that, what does this report describe?  And you don't need to read it out.

11     You can explain in your own words.

12        A.   This is one directed to Cedric Thornberry.  Is it dated 1st of

13     June?  That the document we're talking about?

14        Q.   That's the correct document.

15        A.   Yes.  It indicates that the militia are conducting a proper

16     investigation in this matter and further details will be supplied when

17     available.  And, again, that is sent from Larry Moore, who was the

18     deputy chief and operations officer at Sector East.  And it's addressed

19     to Cedric Thornberry.

20        Q.   If you look at who it's from, and you look closely at the

21     signature beside that, do you recognise that signature?

22        A.   No, Your Honour.

23        Q.   And -- but Larry Moore, are you familiar with Larry Moore?

24        A.   Yes.  I had noted at the time that it wasn't his signature, when

25     I saw it initially.

Page 5989

 1             MR. GILLETT:  We would tender this document, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2173, Your Honours.

 4             MR. GILLETT:  Now, I see the time.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gillett.

 6             Mr. McElligott, this is the time for our second break.

 7     30 minutes.  We'll come back at 12.45.  The court usher will escort you

 8     out of court.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I heard the problem with the video-clip

15     transcripts has been solved, Mr. Gillett, so whenever it suits you.

16             MR. GILLETT:  Thanks.  That's great.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I withdraw the objection that I

18     asserted before the break.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.  I think we did have a --

20     we do have an exhibit number.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah.  Thank you.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.

25             MR. GILLETT:  If we could now play the video 4809.9, please.

Page 5990

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... Because we protected them.  We

 3     placed them on the second floor of the hotel and there are our displaced

 4     women and children on the third and fourth floor, so they are fully

 5     protected there.  Safe --

 6             "[In English] On the fourth floor, we have accommodated our women

 7     and children, which means that they really safe in that hotel.

 8              THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There was a misunderstanding.

 9     Just like the major misunderstanding, this pseudo-truth, that was

10     broadcast to the world about us.  The world was told that we were keeping

11     them hostage, which is not true.

12             "[In English] ... because they have not been taken hostages.  It

13     was sent as news to the world.  On the contrary, we have decided to

14     protect them.  So they are in the hotel with our -- they're on one floor,

15     then the children and women are on another floor.

16             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Today we have received thanks from

17     their commander who expressed his gratitude for the premises we have

18     given them to -- for their safety but also food.

19             "[In English] ... and that they are using --

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "They are firing at the dam with

21     heavy artillery to destroy it.  They want to establish a political

22     balance and to have the Serbs blamed for it.  So, the Croats will be

23     blamed for the aggression, the Serbs for the dam, and, thus, the

24     political balance will be achieved.

25             "[In English] ... for destroying the dam.  So the Croatian army

Page 5991

 1     has committed aggression, the Serbs have destroyed the dam, and that's

 2     it, tit for tat."

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. McElligott, is he referring to the same incident that

 5     you describe in your statement and described earlier?  And I will ask

 6     you, sorry, in answering the questions to concentrate on speaking slowly

 7     and clearly and leaving a pause after I ask.  Thank you very much.

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  It is the same incident, and a couple of

 9     points on it.  At the outset, the hotel was -- had a lot of civilians

10     there.  Indeed the yard was -- the parking area were full of civilians.

11     There were hundreds of them there.  And they were in a distressed state

12     having fled their homes, and indeed their first stop to take refuge was

13     at the CIVPOL headquarters.

14             I know that many of them were moved from there over that day to

15     other villages and into what would be considered safe areas by their own

16     people.  From my knowledge, there were no civilians in the hotel, say,

17     from at least one day onwards.  It became a military base, and our

18     monitors were on the third floor.

19             Now, the issue of publicity and they had been taken -- and I

20     think the issue was hyped somewhat there in the description of it, I

21     actually issued a statement and it was the first statement, I understand,

22     issued on the matter in the public domain about the affair on the morning

23     I left, and I drafted it with the assistance of the UN press officer in a

24     rather soft fashion because we were going into a negotiation later.  Put

25     it in the sense that our monitors were being restricted to the hotel and

Page 5992

 1     it stayed silent on anything else.

 2             That evening, when I returned to Benkovac with my ten monitors,

 3     and I met Jeannie Peterson, and we went to see, as I understand it,

 4     Mr. Spanovic at his home, he raised the issue with me at that point about

 5     the media publicity and the fact that there were police monitors being

 6     held as human shields and so forth.  So I pointed out to him that I had

 7     left my office early that morning and I actually quoted him the statement

 8     disclosed.  He went and he checked it and he came back to me and he

 9     agreed that my version was correct, but that the media situation was

10     being presented in a different fashion.  And I pointed out that -- more

11     or less what would he have expected when, in reality, he could have been

12     claiming that he was being attacked and looking for assistance and all he

13     did do was grab 20 policemen from different countries all over the world

14     and turned the media against him.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. McElligott.  If I could just interrupt there,

16     and -- because this incident is described in your statement as well.

17             MR. GILLETT:  And I would ask if we could tender this document,

18     this video 4809.9.

19             THE WITNESS:  Just to make another point on the tape.  He did

20     mention that we expressed gratitude for feeding them and -- or feeding

21     his people, our people, and for the help they got.  The fact that they

22     had to feed them meant that they were not free -- our people couldn't get

23     their own meals, but we did express our gratitude and I did do so to

24     Mr. Martinovic and to Mr. Spanovic, and I did that publicly and openly to

25     them.  Because they did contribute in a positive way to achieving the end

Page 5993

 1     result, and I would still say thank you for that.

 2             At the same time, I did find out that they'd breached the

 3     Vance Plan, it was not part of the planning, we were meant to have a

 4     freedom of movement, and we were quite firm on that too.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  So we would again tender that video 4809.9.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2174, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

10             MR. GILLETT:

11        Q.   Could we now look to document 5177 in your binder.

12             MR. GILLETT:  And if we could get that on the monitor as well.

13        Q.   This is a sitrep from Sector East.  Now, if we look on the first

14     page of this document, there's a list of addressees, down the left side.

15     What do the terms FC and DFC stand for in that list of addresses?

16        A.   The Force Commander and the Deputy Force Commander.

17        Q.   Now if we turn over to page 2.3, and sub-point 3, and this is the

18     second paragraph from the bottom.  It states that an UNCIVPOL vehicle was

19     stopped at the Batina bridge.  Are you aware of UNCIVPOL vehicles being

20     stopped?

21        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Yeah.

22        Q.   Looking at the last line at the bottom of the same page, it

23     refers to terrorisation of the non-Serb population continuing and it says

24     to see the details in CIVPOL reports.

25             Why would this UNPROFOR sitrep refer to the CIVPOL reports?

Page 5994

 1        A.   There was a close liaison between all the elements in the

 2     mission.  You had the military component, you had the civil affairs, and

 3     CIVPOL, and there was a close relationship so that it is clearly obvious

 4     that there was a meeting, they were familiar with incidents that we had

 5     encountered, and they were bringing that to the notice of the Force

 6     Commander from the military perspective.  They were reporting to the

 7     person in charge in the HQ.

 8             MR. GILLETT:  We tender this document, 5177, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2175.

11             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. McElligott, I'm now going to address some documents that

13     concern the issue of shelling which is referred to your statement at

14     paragraph 148.  But these are different documents.  The first one is

15     1608.

16             And while you're getting to that, I'll ask you:  Firstly, what

17     impact did the shelling have on the work of the UNCIVPOL monitors?

18        A.   The impact was it immediately presented a danger to their own

19     persons in the sense that they were working out in the field along -- all

20     over the mission area so they were exposed to that risk of being struck.

21     That was an immediate risk.  But there was also the -- the fallout effect

22     that when shelling occurred, they were unable to engage in their patrols

23     into the communities and do their job.  And, again, while you have

24     Croatian side shelling the sector, the reality was that our monitors

25     couldn't get to visit their own -- their people.  So in the sense, they

Page 5995

 1     were almost impeding our duty in respect of engaging -- of minding the

 2     people they wanted us to mind.

 3        Q.   Looking to the front page of this document, do you recognise the

 4     signature of who it's from?

 5        A.   It's Yolanda Auger.  She was the deputy to Cedric Thornberry at

 6     the UN head -- civil affairs headquarters.

 7        Q.   And then if we look over the page and we look at page 2, what

 8     type of document is this?

 9        A.   Again, it's a -- what I would call a protest letter written by

10     Cedric Thornberry, who was the director of civil affairs.

11             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honour, we tender this document, 1608.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2176.

14             MR. GILLETT:

15        Q.   Sir, if you could now look to document 1616.  And this is an

16     UNPROFOR coded cable and it's again addressing the issue of shelling of

17     civilian targets.  If we look at the first page of addressees, who was

18     this sent to?

19        A.   This goes to Mr. Annan at UN headquarters in New York.

20        Q.   If we skip right to the end page, and for you this should be the

21     page ending 7738.  In e-court it's page 3.  We can see who the underlying

22     report was provided by at the end there.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Who -- who is that?

25        A.   Clements, he's the lieutenant-colonel.  He's in charge of the --

Page 5996

 1     commanding officer of the UNMOs, the United Nations Military Observers.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And I would ask you again to speak slowly and clearly

 3     for the purposes of the transcript.

 4             Now who were the UNMOs and how did their work relate to the work

 5     of the UNCIVPOL monitors?

 6        A.   The UNMOs were -- they were a group of military observers, they

 7     were unarmed, and in general they were acting as liaison persons between

 8     the -- both sides on the front line would be -- they were the

 9     facilitators when conflict arose on the front line.  And shelling would

10     be an obvious one where they would engage in talks and try and stabilise

11     the situation again.  So they played a key role in that area.  They were

12     the first-response team from the UN on the ground and they were amenable

13     to all sides and available to all sides.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. GILLETT:  We tender document 1616.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2177.

18             MR. GILLETT:

19        Q.   Looking now to document 5204.  Now, while this is coming up, I

20     noticed in paragraph 81 of your statement you refer to P.J. McGowan as

21     the head of operations at UNCIVPOL HQ.  So does that mean that you took

22     over when you started as head of operations at UNCIVPOL from McGowan; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   That is correct, Your Honours.

25        Q.   If we look at this document on page 1, do you recognise the

Page 5997

 1     signature?

 2        A.   Yes, that is P.J. McGowan's signature.

 3        Q.   Now if we go to page 5, which is ending 5874, the ERN number.

 4     And if we look at point 8 there, the report states that:

 5             "There will be public meetings with government -- local

 6     government in an effort to prevent criminality."

 7             Are you aware of meetings of this nature?

 8        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Meetings were held within the sectors.

 9     Meetings were held with the police on, I would say, regular enough

10     occasions and very often weekly, and I would say at station level, some

11     of our monitors would go there every day.  Then you have what would

12     appear to be a community-type meeting here, which has an agenda -- I

13     suppose there's an information element attached to it of informing the

14     community of what is happening.  And there's an issue about the

15     exploration of fuel -- of a fuel situation.  There's --

16        Q.   That's okay.  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... it's a very open type of agenda for a

18     community meeting.  And it's a type of one where you could see it as

19     perhaps a first engagement with a group.  Where you're going -- I'm going

20     to go on and engage to more focussed issues of concern.

21        Q.   If we then look to the attached report which is referred to at

22     the end of this page, so the following page, which should end 5875.

23     You'll see that this is a report on an incident of violent intimidation

24     by an individual called Djoko Briga.  And it describes how Johansen,

25     Larry Moore and someone called Gerard Sexton go to the Dalj police

Page 5998

 1     station to follow up on this.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, firstly, you've mentioned Johansen and Larry Moore.  Did you

 4     know Gerard Sexton?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.  He was an Irish police monitor on the mission.

 6        Q.   And would it be normal for the commissioner to personally go to

 7     the police station to follow up on an incident?

 8        A.   I expect or I suspect that he was actually in the mission area at

 9     that particular time, visiting the area, and having reviewed the

10     situation decided to go, and indeed I think did Mrs. Naga attend as well,

11     if I'm not clear on that one.  But, yes, he is -- he did go.  It wouldn't

12     have been normal for him to go.  The monitors would deal with the issues

13     themselves at local level.

14        Q.   I see that in the middle of the page before us, and this should

15     be the page ending 5785, there's a quote from Djoko Briga, saying:

16             "I will be beat you up again in front of the militia and CIVPOL."

17             Did you hear of threats like that being made to a CIVPOL

18     representative?

19        A.   Could you repeat the question here?

20        Q.   Certainly.  There is a quote from the suspect Djoko Briga

21     stating -- he is report as stating:

22             "I will beat you up again in front of the militia and CIVPOL."

23             Did you hear of threats like that being made to CIVPOL monitors?

24        A.   Well, that's a very specific threat.  I can't recall off the top

25     of my head where you have a culprit literally dictating the agenda

Page 5999

 1     blatantly and violent -- almost violently as to how he will respond --

 2     it -- to a matter, so off the top of my head I can't say I do.

 3        Q.   If we look further down, at the second-last sentence of this

 4     page, it says:

 5             "Briga is employed by the town council in Dalj and responsible

 6     for the housing section."

 7             What impact would it have on victims where individuals like this

 8     were involved in crimes?

 9        A.   I think if you go back to the very beginning of the report where

10     the initial threat was made it highlights the -- the motive for the --

11     the -- the initial crime.  And ... he called -- the -- Djoko Briga called

12     to his home with unidentified men and told him to leave Dalj.  Djoko

13     Briga told him that if he and his family were not gone by the next day,

14     or the next morning, they would be killed.

15        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

16        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... and what you then have -- --

17        Q.   Sorry, from your review of that, what is the motive for the

18     crime?

19        A.   The motive is that he wants him out of his house, and obviously

20     if he is involved in the town council housing section he has other

21     clients in mind to be housed.  And when you look at the fact that he was

22     being dealt with by the police, he was blatantly challenging them and

23     more or less telling them that he didn't give a damn what they did.

24             MR. GILLETT:  We tender 5204, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

Page 6000

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  We object to that.  There's no foundation given

 2     what the witness has testified to.  The witness appears to have no direct

 3     knowledge of this event, wasn't asked any questions whether he had any

 4     direct knowledge or memory of this event.  What he did do was he

 5     identified that that was Mr. McGowan's signature.  He confirmed that

 6     community meetings, police meetings were held.  He confirms he knows

 7     Gerry Sexton.  He was then asked a hypothetical question about what

 8     impact this crime would have and then he speculated about the motive.

 9     And then he gave two indications that were negative to the contents of

10     the document.  One was that he said it was not normal that the author

11     would have gone to the police station.  And he said he had no knowledge

12     of any other specific threats of the type that are indicated in this

13     second page of this document, of the second document.

14             So you'll know, Your Honours, we've made a submission in respect

15     of foundation with witnesses, and I think this is a good example of

16     absence of foundation for the admission of this document with this

17     witness.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett.

19             MR. GILLETT:  Yeah, indeed, the document is of a format similar

20     to many documents reviewed by the witness.  He's identified the

21     individuals involved in the incident and in creating the document, he's,

22     as my learned friend has observed, added additional comments about local

23     meetings with local government and he has added context to the events

24     described in this document.

25             Now, the fact that he says that it would not be normal for a

Page 6001

 1     police commissioner to go along, although it is a negative answer it

 2     provides relevant context when you're reading and understanding this

 3     document.

 4             So we say that there is a sufficient foundation for the admission

 5     of this document and that additional issues can, of course, be raised in

 6     cross-examination and can go to the weight placed on this document.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Mr. President, that's exactly the problem.

 9     There isn't really anything to be gone into on cross-examination because

10     the witness doesn't know anything about the core allegation contained in

11     the attachment.  What can be gone into on cross-examination?  Nothing.

12     And that's the -- that's the core reason, I suggest, as to why this

13     document is being tendered, and it's that content that cannot be

14     cross-examined on.

15             MR. GILLETT:  Well, again, that would go to weight.  If the

16     Defence chooses to cross-examine on additional aspects, we do not

17     understand the witness to have to talk about every aspect of a document

18     but we maintain that he has talked about significant aspects in relation

19     to this document.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett, when you said that the witness

21     identified individuals involved in the incident --

22             MR. GILLETT:  I should --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- who are you referring to?

24             MR. GILLETT:  I should have clarified that he said -- he stated

25     that he knew Johansen and Larry Moore as UNCIVPOL monitors, and Gerard

Page 6002

 1     Sexton, he explained who he was.  So when I refer to the incident, I

 2     refer to the description of them going and speaking to this individual.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection is sustained.

 5             Please continue, Mr. Gillett.

 6             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 7             If we now turn to -- if we could now play a video, which is

 8     4848.1.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   If we pause there before we start playing, do you recognise any

10     of the individuals shown there?

11        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  The lady at the microphones is

12     Jeannie Peterson.  I referred to her earlier as the head of civil affairs

13     in Sector South.

14        Q.   And could you describe what she is wearing or how she appears?

15        A.   In what sense?

16        Q.   To identify which of the two women she is?

17        A.   She is the lady -- the person in the middle and to the right of

18     the person dressed in a UN uniform.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. GILLETT:  If we could now play the video.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... assistance, especially for the

23     derivatives in medicines.  Today the motorway Belgrade-Zagreb will be

24     opened.  Jeannie Peterson, chief for civil affairs of the UNPROFOR, said

25     the same.  At the press conference in Belgrade, the representative of

Page 6003

 1     UNPROFOR, Jeannie Peterson, head of UNPROFOR civilian affairs, said that

 2     from Belgrade to Zagreb a journey will be organised along the motorway.

 3     This highway will be used for transportation of civilians for the first

 4     time since 1991.  This UNPROFOR action will represent demonstration of

 5     goodwill and two groups will meet in Okucani where a press conference

 6     will be organised.  Talking about the situation in protected areas,

 7     Jeannie Peterson said that it was gradually improving in the majority of

 8     sectors in the light of progress of the Geneva negotiating progress.

 9     Violations of the cease-fire on part of the Croats are fewer and the

10     Serbs have better co-operation with the UNPROFOR.  However, in

11     Sector East in Baranja, Serb paramilitaries continued to carry out

12     terrorist attacks and local police is not doing anything to stop this.

13     Arson, looting and destruction of houses persist in Sector Sot, and

14     according to Ms. Peterson, the Serb side is responsible for most of

15     those."

16             MR. GILLETT:

17        Q.   Mr. McElligott --

18             MR. GILLETT:  Apologies.  There appears to be an issue with my

19     microphone.  Am I coming through loud and clear?

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No.

21             MR. GILLETT:  Am I coming through now?  I believe there's a

22     microphone on in the booth.

23             Am I coming through now?  Okay.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, it's okay now.

25             MR. GILLETT:

Page 6004

 1        Q.   Mr. McElligott, in the video we've seen just, Jeannie Peterson

 2     says that in Sector East in Baranja, Serb paramilitaries continue to

 3     carry out terrorist acts and the local police doesn't do anything about

 4     it.

 5             Which paramilitary groups operated in Sector East?

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I object.  Let's consider what was

 7     just put to the witness.  We actually don't have Jeannie Peterson's words

 8     on the audiotape.  We have a broadcaster, from wherever the origin of

 9     this broadcast is, summarising her words.  Those words have now been put

10     in front of the witness and then the question being asked by my learned

11     friend was whether paramilitary groups or which paramilitary groups

12     operated in Sector East.

13             Now, it certainly seems leading even though the -- even though

14     the -- the video didn't actually specifically name paramilitary groups.

15     So I'm not really -- I -- I would suggest and my objection is it's poor

16     leading but it's nevertheless leading, and the Prosecution has previously

17     quite correctly said that it's not proper to put a video to a witness

18     first because that is leading the witness to a certain conclusion.

19     Better to ask the question, have an answer.  If there's a lack of memory,

20     then whatever material is to be put to the witness, can be put to the

21     witness.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Basically I agree with you, Mr. Gosnell.  But

23     what is the -- besides -- consequence in your -- in your view.  Should

24     we -- should we not allow OTP to ask whether the witness knows about

25     paramilitaries in the sector?

Page 6005

 1             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, if I could -- sorry.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I -- I think -- I think I would rather have a

 3     reaction of Mr. Gosnell first, Mr. Gillett.

 4             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I -- I think I would ask the Prosecution to

 6     move on to the next question.  Because I -- I would suggest we're coming

 7     to something leading.  And -- it's already -- the seed of the leading has

 8     already been planted and we can't see yet what the prejudice is going to

 9     be.

10             So, yes, indeed, I would say that the remedy is ask the

11     Prosecution to go to the next question.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett.

13             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you for your patience.

14             We don't understand there to be a general rule that videos which

15     are narrated over the top cannot be used with witnesses.  And in this

16     specific instance we're dealing with a Rule 92 ter witness who does have

17     mentions of paramilitaries in his statement.

18             So the difficulty that we face in these situations is that there

19     are references in the evidence that's already admitted of the witness and

20     we don't want to repeat all of that evidence but we do want to try and

21     elicit additional details if they're available.  And this is a parallel

22     situation where we have an exhibit which mentioned some detail but

23     doesn't mention which paramilitary groups, and I'm trying to elicit that

24     additional detail from the witness should he know it.

25             So that's the basis on which we present this.

Page 6006

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you direct me to a specific paragraph or --

 2     or paragraphs in the statement?  The witness's statement.

 3             MR. GILLETT:  Sure.  Sure.

 4             Your Honours, for instance, we have in paragraph 123 of the

 5     statement a Sector East military situation report, which refers to the

 6     JNA's failure to disarm paramilitary troops.

 7             So, again, there's reference in the same area, Sector East, to

 8     paramilitary troops which is provided in the video.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection is overruled.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.

12             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. McElligott, I'll repeat my question.  In the clip we've seen,

14     Jeannie Peterson is reported as saying that in Sector East in Baranja,

15     Serb paramilitaries continue to carry out terrorist attacks and the local

16     police doesn't do anything about it.

17             Which paramilitary groups operated in Sector East?

18        A.   I have referred to the -- in the -- what I call the special

19     police earlier on in my evidence.  They would be one group.  I wouldn't

20     define them as a paramilitary group in that sense.  But Arkan and his

21     people were also in Sector East, and I have referred to them in those

22     terms elsewhere in my statement.  So I would be conscious of they being

23     there.

24             I'm also conscious of the fact that the police themselves have

25     declared that when people of this nature are engaged in activities, that

Page 6007

 1     it is beyond them to deal with it.  In other words, that there is another

 2     overseeing power beyond their authority.  And it is in that context I see

 3     the police problem.  Refusing to deal with it might be -- mightn't

 4     exactly be correct.  I think being capable or being -- having the

 5     capacity to do -- or the scope to do it and the freedom to do it would be

 6     perhaps getting closer to where the issue -- the real issue lies.  And

 7     they have confided, indeed I have met officers myself who told me that

 8     they had a difficulty, and indeed I think there are several reports there

 9     alluding to that fact as well.

10        Q.   You've used the term "another overseeing power beyond their

11     authority."  Can you clarify that at all?

12        A.   You have the police functioning as a police force and at station

13     or opstina level they have a role, and their line of command, as I would

14     see it, to the ultimate height is Milan Martic.

15             Now side by side with that you have the special police and who

16     controlled them in between, I have no idea.  And I don't -- and I'm not

17     sure if others know.  But there was -- the police certainly sensed and

18     told us that they were in a vacuum when they engaged in unlawful

19     activity.

20        Q.   Now, Peterson in the clip that we've seen also refers to arson,

21     looting, and destruction of houses in Sector South and she says that the

22     Serb side is responsible for most of these crimes.

23             How does that compare with your experience with Sector South?

24        A.   Sector South has many, many crimes recorded against the minority

25     Croatian population and again they -- again you take where your suspects

Page 6008

 1     are seen at the crime scenes.  They are men in militia uniform, in

 2     military uniform, and I would say that they are Serbians attacking the

 3     Croatian people.

 4             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would tender this video 4848.1.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we object.

 6             We don't often object to commentaries being provided by the media

 7     or the news -- a news reporter.  But in this case it's being presented as

 8     if it was the words of Ms. Peterson, whereas in fact it's a -- it's

 9     someone else saying what those words were, without knowing who that

10     someone else is.  I think in this context, there's not a -- this is one

11     situation where it's not sufficiently reliable to be admitted.

12             MR. GILLETT:  To clarify, is the Defence disputing that this

13     media conference took place and Jeannie Peterson gave this conference, or

14     are they simply disputing the fact that it is reporting of her words

15     rather than her words?

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, it is often that there are three

17     people sitting at a desk and saying something.  So that is not in

18     dispute.  What is in dispute is the nature of what she said, which then

19     was the foundation for some remarks.  But what she said cannot be

20     reliably -- we say cannot be reliably inferred based on an anonymous

21     commentary by a media reporter.  And that's the problem.  That's why it

22     is not admissible.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, perhaps if I could clarify to say

24     the -- in light of the witness's comments in relation to this, if we rely

25     on this video for the purpose not of her specific words, not of precisely

Page 6009

 1     what she was stating, but in terms of the fact a media conference was

 2     held where these issues were raised, and then the witness has provided

 3     his additional comments in relation to these issues and he has identified

 4     the speaker as well as Jeannie Peterson.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  I was going to ask Mr. Gosnell that given the

 6     jurisprudence of the Tribunal in terms of hearsay evidence, since we are

 7     not in a pure common law courtroom, could you expand on why the -- what

 8     you say is the commentary is distinct from the very words -- ought not to

 9     be admitted?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, Judge Hall, you're quite right and my

11     understanding of the jurisprudence is that hearsay is not inadmissible.

12     That doesn't necessarily mean that hearsay always is admissible.  And in

13     this case we have no indication as to who is giving this hearsay

14     information about what Ms. Peterson said, and normally, anonymous hearsay

15     actually is one of those categories where often Trial Chambers will say:

16     We cannot accord that any weight whatsoever.  And if you apply that

17     reasoning to the admissibility standards is -- if you know, Your Honours,

18     that you cannot rely on anonymous hearsay at the end of the day, then

19     there is no reason to admit this information.

20             Now, if the Prosecution wishes to tender the video without the

21     commentary, there would be no objection to that.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gillett, do we know where the broadcast comes

23     from?  Who -- who was broadcasting this?  And I -- I --

24             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, perhaps I could look into that and

25     come back to this.  We understand it is Serbian news television, but I

Page 6010

 1     don't have all the details right at my fingertips.  So perhaps I could

 2     come back with those details.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  All right.  All right.

 4             Please proceed.  We'll wait --

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- until we have that information.

 7             MR. GILLETT:

 8        Q.   Mr. McElligott, if we could now look at document 5293.  And this

 9     is a document concerning mass graves.  And I note in your statement at

10     paragraph 132, you refer to a report that you forwarded to the police

11     commissioner concerning the Ovcara mass grave.

12             So before we look at this document 5293, I'd first ask you why

13     was it that you forwarded a report to the police commissioner about this

14     mass grave?

15        A.   I -- that would my normal line of command in forwarding material

16     from CIVPOL, say, to civil affairs or to the Force Commander or to some

17     other source at a higher level.  So he would be the signing authority

18     when it is leaving CIVPOL to go to some other department such as civil

19     affairs or the military.

20        Q.   I would ask you to speak very clearly into the microphones,

21     please.

22             If we now look at document 5293, do you have that there?

23        A.   I think it's coming up, yes.

24        Q.   Now, this is a report.  And if we look at page 1, the front page,

25     do you recognise the signature on this?

Page 6011

 1        A.   Yes.  It's Kjell Johansen's, the CIVPOL commissioner's.

 2        Q.   Then if we look at the page overleaf, at the bottom of that, do

 3     you recognise the signature there?

 4        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  It's Larry Moore.

 5        Q.   On the same page that you're looking at, there's a third long

 6     paragraph that says that local president Milan Ilic would not authorise

 7     an exhumation and that there should be no investigations of events prior

 8     to the formation of the RSK.

 9             Do you recall that reason being given in relation to

10     investigations of the Ovcara mass grave, which you refer to in your

11     statement?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   The attached report to this, this document, says on the last

14     page, and this should end 3821, right at the end, the last sentence, I

15     believe says:

16             "There's a concern that the RSK authorities would tie exhumation

17     to other issues."

18             That's right at the end.

19        A.   On 821.

20        Q.   3821.  Yes, correct.  Right at the end.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Where it says there was a concern they would tie the exhumation

23     to other issues, what is this referring to?

24        A.   At the time I understand there were calls to open mass graves

25     in -- on the other side, on the Croatian side as well, that there would

Page 6012

 1     be a joint approach to opening mass graves.

 2             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we tender 5293 into evidence.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2178, Your Honours.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   If we now look across to 5228.  And this is an UNPROFOR military

 7     info summary from August 1992.

 8             In your statement, you authenticate similar military info

 9     reports.  For example, at paragraph 129.

10             Now, if you have that there, if you look at the addressees, would

11     UNCIVPOL have received this report?

12        A.   It's listed as one of the recipients or departments to have it

13     circulated to.

14        Q.   If we then look to page 4, which should be ending 8506, 8506, and

15     point 4 on this page.  Here it states that a militia leader, Mr. Vranic,

16     in Baranja, has ordered his men to carry rifles.

17             If you see that --

18        A.   Yes, I have it -- [overlapping speakers] ...

19        Q.   Can you tell us whether that order would be in accordance with

20     the Vance Plan?

21        A.   No, Your Honours.  The Vance Plan stated that the police were to

22     be armed with side-arms only.

23        Q.   If we then look to the following page, which should end 8507, at

24     the top, it states that in Sector South some minor demobilisation took

25     place but that mostly TDF soldiers changed uniform into special militia

Page 6013

 1     or the uniform of the Krajina Knin Corps.

 2             Were you aware of this changing of uniforms?

 3        A.   Yes, we received reports from our own monitors, and indeed there

 4     is one documented here where a monitor reports seeing people wearing

 5     different uniforms today and that report would be coming on the basis

 6     that they know the people and they are now wearing a different uniform.

 7     So it was a question of they knew the people on the ground and they now

 8     see them wearing a different uniform and they interchanged uniforms from

 9     time to time.

10        Q.   If we look at page 9, which should be two pages over, and

11     point 1.  Do you see problems there with the Red Berets?

12        A.   Which -- which page are you on?

13        Q.   Page 9.  It should be page 8511.

14        A.   I have different ...

15        Q.   Do you see a point 1 there?  It may be 8510.  It may be the

16     preceding page?

17        A.   Yeah, I think we're on different page numbers.

18             What date is it recorded as?

19        Q.   If you give me a moment, I'll just check.

20        A.   I think we're on different page numbers.

21        Q.   Indeed, it's the page that should end 8511, at the top.  And do

22     you see that under 19th August, 1992, point number 1.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   It says:

25             "The increasing militance of the Red Berets is a continuing

Page 6014

 1     concern in Sector East.  They are based in Bapska and they refuse to deal

 2     with UNCIVPOL, claiming they are military in nature."

 3             Now, firstly, was there supposed to be military units in

 4     Sector East at this stage?

 5        A.   No, Your Honours.  Demilitarisation was meant to take place from

 6     the outset of the mission.  That -- in fact that was the basis of the

 7     mission.  And they should not be there.  And, secondly, the whole core of

 8     the -- advancing the mission was openness, interchange, co-operation, and

 9     you can see where it's being refused here, and they are indeed just not

10     accounting for themselves.

11             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we would tender this document, 5228.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2179.

14             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

15        Q.   If we could now look to document 1322.

16             This is, again, an UNPROFOR military info report.  It's 1322.

17             And this military info report is a week later, five days later

18     than a similar military info report which is authenticated in your

19     statement.

20        A.   I don't seem to have 13 --

21        Q.   1322.

22        A.   Is it at the rear?

23        Q.   It should be in the second group of documents.

24        A.   Okay.  Okay.

25        Q.   You have it there?

Page 6015

 1        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Now, firstly if we look at page 1, again, it lists UNCIVPOL as an

 3     addressee.  But if we skip across two pages to the one that should end

 4     1933 at the top.  This is also page 2 of 17, it's called.

 5             So if you look at point 3(E) on this page there's a heading:

 6     "Capabilities and possible intentions Sector East."  And it says:

 7             "A.J. is ready to enter the sector in case of return of Croatian

 8     refugees."

 9             Are you aware what they're describing in that sentence?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  There was a proposal, I suppose, it was a bit

11     more stronger than that, that there was going to be an incursion of

12     civilians into the UNPA for the purpose of returning to their homes.  A

13     mass entry of civilians into the mission area.  And this was initiated by

14     the Croatian side.  And this is indicating a response on -- from the

15     Serbian side in the event of that case, or actually planning for it.

16        Q.   And was this a concern to UNPROFOR and UNCIVPOL?

17        A.   Yes, it was.  Again, it was a heightening of tensions.  I suppose

18     in reality the circumstances weren't right for their return.  We were

19     still very much in conflict and the first step of the Vance Plan had not

20     been taken even.  So it did heighten the tensions.  And you were leading

21     into serious conflict.  It was going to involve civilians.  So it was a

22     serious issue of concern to the UN mission as to how you handle a

23     situation like that.  But, again, the approach in those situations would

24     have been one of negotiating and trying to negotiate [indiscernible].  So

25     you had confrontation coming and you were being presented with innocent

Page 6016

 1     victims as fodder in the situation, to put it simply, and this was a

 2     challenge for the UN.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. GILLETT:  We would tender 1322, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2180, Your Honours.

 7             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.  If we now look to 65 ter document 5229.

 8        Q.   And this is a pair of letters from UNPROFOR containing

 9     essentially the same information in both letters addressed to two

10     different people.  So firstly, can you tell us whose signature that is?

11        A.   Cedric Thornberry signs both letters.

12        Q.   And if you look at the content, what type of letters are these?

13        A.   Again, it a protest letter.  It talks about applying regulations

14     concerning confiscation of property and again outside the remit of the

15     Vance Plan.

16        Q.   And why was confiscation of property outside the remit of the

17     Vance Plan?

18        A.   Well, the local authorities ...

19             The -- the -- it was -- I'll just read the letter for a moment

20     here, yeah.

21             It's -- again, I think it's referring to the confiscation of

22     property of refugees are taken.  And that any action already taken are

23     reversed, so it's the seizure of refugee property.

24        Q.   And from your own experience, why would that be outside -- you

25     said, the remit of the Vance Plan?  What did you mean by that?

Page 6017

 1        A.   You're back to the basic rights of people again of -- to preserve

 2     their life, their property, their home, and this was just seizure of it.

 3     Again the consequences of it was that these people were left nothing but

 4     the clothing they carried on their back when they were leaving the place.

 5             MR. GILLETT:  We tender 5229, at this stage.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we would object to the admission of

 8     this document through this witness.  As Your Honours know we would

 9     object to the -- we disagree with the assertions being put forward in the

10     letter, and given its significance, we suggest that this letter should

11     only be tendered with someone who can actually speak to the reasons why

12     these allegations were made so that we can then test that on

13     cross-examination.

14             As it stands, there's no way to test through cross-examination

15     the -- the specific characterisation of the regulations being applied as

16     depriving those who were leaving of their property.

17             And we say that that deprives this document of -- of foundation

18     for admission through this witness.  Given that that's the reason why

19     it's being admitted.

20             MR. GILLETT:  A quick response, Your Honours.

21             In the witness's statement, there is reference to protest letters

22     sent by Thornberry and he explains why this was done.

23             Now the document is largely self-authenticating.  If you look at

24     its format it's quite clear, but he has provided additional information

25     and he has put it into the context of the Vance Plan, which is also

Page 6018

 1     described in his statement.

 2             So there is sufficient information if the Defence wants to

 3     explore that on cross-examination, but we would say irrespective of that,

 4     there is a foundation for admission into evidence of this document.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Overruled.  The document is admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2181, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 9             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

10        Q.   If we could now look to document 5389.  And while that's coming

11     up, while you're getting there, I note at paragraph 151 of your statement

12     you describe a document, which is 5392, that refers to pressure on the

13     RSK to slow down on unification.

14             So my question is:  What do they mean by this "unification"?  And

15     I'm referring at the moment to, in your statement, where you refer to

16     this "pressure to slow down unification."

17             Before we get to this specific document.

18        A.   May I refer to my statement just to ...

19        Q.   Absolutely, yes.  Of course.  That's para 151 of your statement.

20             So, to repeat my question, what is meant by this "pressure on the

21     RSK to slow down on unification"?

22        A.   This, as I understand it, is that they were looking towards the

23     east to perhaps join in with the - what do you call it - Serbia as an

24     approach to where they were going.

25        Q.   If we now look back to 5389.  And apologies for all the shuffling

Page 6019

 1     of paper here.

 2             Now, this memorandum also discusses unification, this term.

 3             And for e-court, could we go to the following page of this

 4     document.

 5             Now, if we look at the bottom of the document, there's a heading:

 6     Humanitarian issues.  And it refers to:

 7             "CIVPOL reporting many incidents of harassment and intimidation

 8     to the militia but in most cases no action has been taken."

 9             In which way would UN CIVPOL typically report that information to

10     the militia?

11        A.   They would go to -- they -- we had a CIVPOL station at all

12     locations where there were police -- normal police stations with

13     responsibility for enforcing law.  And our monitors, or the station

14     commander, would go to the station to meet with them and to bring matters

15     to their notice.

16             In reality, the local police should be advising our people of

17     reports they have as well.  But facts on the ground would show that our

18     monitors were picking up information, perhaps, that the local police may

19     never have picked up.

20             So they would go out and meet them and give them the details.

21        Q.   And the report states that the local militia usually didn't

22     react.  How does that fit with your experience in -- during your period

23     of service with UN CIVPOL?

24        A.   It goes back again to what I said at an early stage.  There

25     tended to be a switching on and switching off of assistance, and you can

Page 6020

 1     see that in reports where you will see we're coming to, co-operation is

 2     good, then co-operation is waning.

 3             Very often, as is mentioned earlier, it can be down to

 4     individuals who are present and who are helpful.  And that's the

 5     environment you had, and that was the way you met the situation.  You

 6     could get help today and you mightn't get it tomorrow, or you could have

 7     it for six weeks and it would go again.

 8             So that was a switch on/switch off scenario, and that is

 9     reflected in many reports.

10        Q.   If we look to the second-last paragraph on that page, it refers

11     to meetings between representatives of the Republic of Croatia and RSK

12     local authorities in Geneva.

13             Are you aware of such meetings?

14        A.   I am.  I did attend a number of them, but I wasn't -- that was

15     the front stage on it.  I was there as an observer, I would say, in

16     relation to any matters arising in respect of a policing issue.  And that

17     could be in relation to planning of events that might emerge from

18     negotiations.

19             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we tender 5389.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2182, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. GILLETT:  Thank you.

24             Could we now go to 5367.  And if we go to the second page of

25     this.

Page 6021

 1        Q.   Firstly, I note that it's from Cedric Thornberry.  Is that his

 2     signature?

 3        A.   Yeah -- no, it's not.  No.  I don't think so.  No.

 4        Q.   And if you look to the content of the letter, what type of letter

 5     is this?

 6        A.   Again, it's a letter of protest, raising a -- concerns about the

 7     destruction of Catholic churches in Sector East.

 8        Q.   Are you aware of the destruction of Catholic churches in

 9     Sector East?

10        A.   Yes, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Now, in those situations, did the local militia investigate the

12     destruction of Catholic churches?

13        A.   There would be specific reports on that churches, indicating what

14     action was taken, so I would need to -- to look at those, or consult

15     those, if necessary.  But there will be -- on the issue of reporting the

16     incident, there will be a reference to what action is being taken.

17             MR. GILLETT:  Your Honours, we tender 5367.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2183, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. GILLETT:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. McElligott, in your work with UN CIVPOL, were the

23     UN CIVPOL monitors and staff able to undertake measures that had an

24     impact on the numbers of crimes being committed in the UNPAs and pink

25     zones?

Page 6022

 1        A.   Yes, I believe they did.  A significant impact, despite the fact

 2     that we were only 633 monitors.

 3             We engaged very openly with the community.  Our approach was one

 4     of community policing, where we got into the community, engaged with the

 5     people, and became part of the society there.  Our monitors lived in the

 6     community.  They were unarmed.  And they shared whatever social

 7     conditions they had with them.

 8             And they did that in respect of both the minority Croatian

 9     population and, indeed, the Serbian population.  So that there was a

10     pretty even-handed approach on their part.  And I think if you look at

11     the Benkovac situation, when the Serbian people fled from the scene,

12     their first port of call was CIVPOL.  So that shows that they had made a

13     mark with them.

14        Q.   What types of measures are you aware of UN CIVPOL monitors using

15     to try and affect the crimes occurring --

16             Apologies.  I'll repeat.

17             What types of measure specifically are you aware of UN CIVPOL and

18     its monitors taking to address the crimes being committed in the areas

19     that it was operating in?

20        A.   There are two specifically referred to in this document.

21             One was in Sector South where the co-ordinator -- the director of

22     civil affairs, Viktor Andreev, and the CIVPOL monitors came together with

23     an initiative to establish patrols, including night patrols in the

24     communities to protect them.

25             Sector North is a significant one allowed from the CIVPOL sector

Page 6023

 1     commander where he actually sought for a substantial logistical support

 2     to base himself in the minority communities with, I suppose, a mobile

 3     type of response office to deal with hot spots as they arose.

 4             And you have day-to-day patrolling and, indeed, night patrols.

 5     One in Sector South again where they linked up with the Canadian -- not

 6     the Canadian but the Kenyan Battalion in carrying out joint patrols.

 7     And, again, I think the approach in linking up and taking that approach

 8     was one of spreading your resources as best you could, that you had

 9     CIVPOL and the military able to -- maybe to get five patrols or six

10     patrols instead of two by having a CIVPOL monitor in each vehicle, and

11     perhaps a Kenyan soldier as well.

12             So those type of initiatives were taken.  They were responding to

13     the needs.  And, as I said, we had only 630 people.  The people with

14     responsibility for the task, as I have said earlier, had 7.000, and if

15     they made any effort, I think they would have made a significant

16     difference to that -- those communities.

17             MR. GILLETT:  I see the time, Your Honours.

18             I just note about the video that we discussed earlier, which was

19     4848.1, so it is from TV Serbia, TV Belgrade, and it's a news programme,

20     News 2, that was it was being reported by.

21             And, as I said, our main purpose with producing that and wanting

22     it admitted is the fact that it was publicly broadcast.  And we have a

23     date in October 1992 for the approximate date of that video.  That's the

24     clip with Jeannie Peterson that the witness described.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would that change your -- would this information

Page 6024

 1     change your objection, Mr. Gosnell?

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  No, it doesn't, Mr. President.  And, in fact, I

 3     would add the objection.

 4             I don't understand the purpose of tendering it.  We've now

 5     heard -- because we've now heard two different explanations from the

 6     Prosecution as the purpose.  At the beginning, they said the purpose was

 7     in order to have this witness provide additional information as to what

 8     Jeannie Peterson meant, and now apparently the only purpose is to

 9     indicate that it was publicly broadcast.

10             And we have the witness's commentary.  If Jeannie Peterson's

11     views are later tendered in proper form, then this witness's commentary

12     can be viewed in light of that.

13             But this is -- the objection is -- is maintained and, in fact,

14     added to.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I do think that we have everything we need on the

16     record, Mr. Gillett.

17             MR. GILLETT:  Okay.  Just to clarify, though, we were tendering

18     it for three purposes, in fact.

19             The purpose that it corroborates Mr. McElligott's statement,

20     because he does refer to Jeannie Peterson.  And it shows that she was

21     involved in these activities, quite clearly.

22             It refers to topics, and we believe that his comments amplify

23     those topics and provide further information.

24             And, thirdly, it's the fact that it was publicly broadcast.

25             So these were the reasons that we were tendering the document.

Page 6025

 1     That is the [Overlapping speakers] ... to clarify because maybe I wasn't

 2     clear earlier about that.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And, in your view, is there anything -- anything

 4     with regard to these three reasons that is not on the record -- that is

 5     not on the record now?

 6             MR. GILLETT:  The -- the visual images we sometimes find useful

 7     in terms of the clip shows how people were present.  The number of

 8     reporters with cameras, et cetera.  And in terms of these messages being

 9     publicly broadcast, we do consider that relevant, and it -- now it's on

10     the record from me, but it's -- it's -- in the video, it's much clearer

11     than me trying to explain that, or even the witness.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection is still sustained.

13             Mr. McElligott, we finish here our -- our hearing for today.  We

14     expect you to be back in the courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00, which

15     means that you are not released as a witness, implementing that you

16     cannot discuss your testimony with anybody for the moment, and you cannot

17     talk to any of the parties.

18             The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you

19     very much.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of June,

25                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.