Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7119

 1                           Wednesday, 17 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The appearances, please, starting

10     with the Prosecution.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

12     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Matthew Olmsted, Thomas Laugel, and

13     Kathryn Fox.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

17     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness may be brought in.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Jaksic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7120

 1                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JAKSIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:  [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jaksic.

 5        A.   Good morning, Mr. Zivanovic.

 6        Q.   Today I would like us to conclude with the issue concerning the

 7     uniforms that we were talking about yesterday.  You saw the video, and

 8     the video showed some women who were complaining to some soldiers.  They

 9     were complaining about members of the Croatian forces who hadn't treated

10     Serbs correctly.  I'm interested in being told what type of uniforms they

11     had.  Could you tell us what uniforms you saw on those soldiers?

12        A.   After the hearing I remembered something.  First you asked about

13     the Territorial Defence, about the uniforms it had.  That was before

14     90 -- 1991, and you asked about the active-duty JNA and also JNA

15     reservists.  The reserve forces of the JNA had the same uniforms as the

16     JNA, as per establishment at the time, but your question was certainly

17     about the uniforms that they had on the battle-field, and that is where

18     the problem arose.

19        Q.   Yes, that is what is at stake, in fact, because I'm, in fact,

20     interested in the uniforms that were used in the course of the combat

21     activity in the second part of 1992 [as interpreted] --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Gentlemen, gentlemen, you're overlapping.  It

23     doesn't work.  Please continue.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I'm interested in the second half of 1991 - I see that the

Page 7121

 1     transcript says, 1992 - that's what I'm interested in, not the period

 2     prior to the conflict.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, please do.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All JNA units that were mobilised

 5     came to the battle-field, and they were provided with same types of

 6     uniforms.  In the course of the combat operations, those who sustained

 7     losses, for example, or if there were certain individuals who weren't fit

 8     for combat or weren't psychologically fit, they would be replaced.  There

 9     were people who came from the Teosid [phoen].  They came with TO

10     uniforms, and they were made part of the JNA.  So there were olive-drab

11     uniforms that were worn within the JNA forces at the time of combat

12     operations, at the time of the war.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Very well.  Yesterday you spoke about the meeting that was held

15     in Velepromet on the 20th of November, 1991.  Sir, could you please tell

16     me if I've understood you correctly, when you arrived at Velepromet you

17     didn't know that the members of the government would be coming.  It's

18     only when you met up with Vojnovic that you discovered this.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As the surname Vojnovic concerns three individuals, I will tell

21     you which individuals the name concerns, the surname concerns, so that

22     we're quite sure about the individual we are referring to.  Please listen

23     to me carefully.  We know that there was a Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic,

24     who was the commander of the 80th Brigade and was subsequently the

25     commander of the town of Vukovar.  Secondly, we also known that there was

Page 7122

 1     a Bogdan Vojnovic who was a minister in the government of Slavonia,

 2     Baranja, and Western Srem.  There was a Milos Vojnovic who was the

 3     president of the court and before the war he was also a judge.  So I'm

 4     interested in knowing which Vojnovic you spoke to.  I have understood

 5     you, but I would like us to be clear for the sake of the transcript.

 6        A.   I spoke to Milos Vojnovic, the president of the court.

 7        Q.   You've told us about that conversation you had with him.  What

 8     I'm interested in is whether he told you or whether you came to the

 9     conclusion somehow about the reasons for which he was contacting you and

10     sending you to see Mrksic.

11        A.   Well, it was because only I went to Mrksic's meetings as the

12     commander of the Petrova Gora detachment, and none of the members from

13     the government had any contact with them.  That was the reason.

14        Q.   When you say with him, you mean with Mrksic?

15        A.   Yes, with Mr. Mrksic.

16        Q.   Was this perhaps also the reason for which later on Goran Hadzic

17     asked you to exert your influence in order to establish civilian

18     authorities in Vukovar?

19        A.   Goran didn't tell me whom I was to influence.  He just said that

20     we should try to make this happen, to try to influence this.  He didn't

21     say whether we should influence Mrksic or someone else.  I wasn't told

22     where to have meetings and whom to speak to.  It was just a matter of

23     using our authority, and it was just a matter of establishing civilian

24     administration that was to replace the military one.

25        Q.   You said that for a short period of time you were at this meeting

Page 7123

 1     that was held in Velepromet.  I would now like to show you a photograph

 2     of the Velepromet feature, panoramic photograph, but could you tell us

 3     where this meeting was held, the one that you partially attended?

 4             [In English] 2802, please.

 5        A.   I'm not a hundred per cent certain about this to the right --

 6        Q.   If you have a pen, could you --

 7        A.   Does it matter if I use this pen to mark it?  We have offices

 8     here, and this is where the TO staff was, in those offices.  Now, I'm not

 9     a hundred per cent certain.  It's -- 22 years have passed since then.  At

10     the end of the hall in the offices, I don't know if there is a corridor

11     and then that room.  I don't know whether it's there or opposite.  I'm

12     not quite sure, but here to the right that is where the room was, and I

13     assume that here at the end of the corridor leading from the offices

14     there was a larger corridor and then a large room.  I think that is how

15     it was.

16        Q.   Could I ask you to mark the larger circle with the letter K, or

17     mark it with the letters TO, if you like.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   And could you mark the smaller circle with H for "hall" or

20     "room."

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   You saw the photograph of you and Goran Hadzic and some other

23     people you recognised.  Could you tell me roughly in relation to this

24     photograph where was that photograph taken?

25        A.   Here in the yard.  I don't know where exactly.  You can probably

Page 7124

 1     see by looking at the photograph that it was in the -- in the Velepromet

 2     yard.

 3        Q.   Very well.  You could mark that with the letter V for "video."

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document into evidence,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D88, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Having spoken to Vojnovic -- and that was before the meeting in

12     Velepromet, wasn't it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   After that conversation you went to see

15     Lieutenant-Colonel Mrksic.  You said that you had returned.  Did you then

16     go to Velepromet and to the room where that meeting was held?

17        A.   I returned to the room, told Vojnovic what Mrksic had said, and

18     while I was doing this I remember that there was some sort of euphoria

19     concerning the army, amongst the army members, and then I went to

20     Petrova Gora.

21        Q.   Yes.  You've said so.  When you say there was a certain euphoria

22     concerning the army, what was all this about?  Do you remember?  What

23     were they saying about the army?  Why did they criticise the army?

24        A.   Well, it was because they said that the army was protecting war

25     criminals who had perpetrated massacres, who had been involved in killing

Page 7125

 1     people.  So very briefly I remember that there was this sort of

 2     excitement because of this issue.

 3        Q.   Was there anything said about the situation in Vukovar itself,

 4     about the destruction of the town?

 5        A.   No.  I can't remember anything of the sort.

 6        Q.   And please tell me, do you remember were there any army

 7     representatives present who -- to whom such criticisms were directed?

 8        A.   Well, there were a lot of people in the room.  I don't remember

 9     any of them in the room, but before the meeting I think I saw -- I

10     remember I saw Sljivancanin in the corner of the room.  As to whether he

11     actually attended the session, the meeting, I cannot remember, because

12     there were a lot of people and they were all in uniform.

13        Q.   You remember that you testified in the Mrksic case.  It was at

14     the hearing held on the 15th of September, 2006.  4694, 65 ter is the

15     exhibit number -- rather it's a 65 ter document, 4694.  I'll just read

16     out a passage that concerns this issue.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, could we have a page, transcript

18     page?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, of course.  [Interpretation] I think it's

20     page 9.  It's page 57.  My apologies.  It's page 57.  I don't seem to be

21     able to find the page.  Let me try again.  I am definitely unable to

22     locate it at this time.  I have the text though.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I would request the Defence counsel

24     find the page just so that I'm able to follow along in the transcript

25     with him.  Perhaps he can come back to this after he's figured out the

Page 7126

 1     correct transcript page.  I don't need to see it on the screen.  I just

 2     need the transcript page in the Mrksic testimony.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It seems a reasonable request.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll do my best to find it, indeed, and I'll not

 5     ask the witness about it at the moment.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In any case, it is your evidence now that you did not see

 9     Sljivancanin at the meeting?

10        A.   I don't recall seeing him in the meeting.  There were many

11     uniformed people.  It was a crowd.  I did see him in the room, but I

12     can't state for a fact that he was there later.

13        Q.   And you did see Vukasinovic in -- in his company?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   During this exchange in that room, do you recall there being

16     present a JNA officer who presented views that were contrary to those of

17     the others?

18        A.   I was there for a short time.  I don't recall that.  I don't

19     recall that any of the officers spoke.

20        Q.   Do you recall that there was an officer present at all?

21        A.   Well, I do remember that they were all in uniform.  What mattered

22     to me was to meet with Vojnic and convey the message to him, and then I

23     left.  I did not pay attention to whether there were any officers around.

24     They were all in uniform.

25        Q.   When you say that they were all in uniform --

Page 7127

 1        A.   Well, even those who were the TO, those who were locals, those

 2     who were supposed to be there, those who weren't supposed to be there,

 3     they were all in uniform.

 4        Q.   When you say that they had uniforms, you mean military uniforms,

 5     the olive-drab uniforms.

 6        A.   Yes.  There were even some territorials who already had

 7     camouflage uniforms.

 8        Q.   But they were also olive green, were they not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You said that after the meeting you went to Petrova Gora.  You

11     said that Goran Hadzic was in a car driving behind you.  You were also

12     asked by the Prosecutor about the time when the sun set at the time.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   I will show you a document precisely about this.  It's 1D480.

15     It's a document that was obtained from the astronomy institute.  You'll

16     have a look at it, and it does state the time when the sun sets in quite

17     precise terms.

18             What you can see here is a report received from the astronomic

19     observatory.  It sets out the times of sunrise and twilight, and that's

20     for the dates of 17, 18 -- that's to say 19, 20, and 21st November 1991,

21     specifically for the place of Grabovo.  Do you know where Grabovo is

22     located approximately?

23        A.   If I recall correctly, it's somewhere in the direction of Ovcara.

24        Q.   You see the column in the middle.  The date is the

25     20th of November.  You see the beginning of daylight, sunrise, sunset.

Page 7128

 1     It's 16.11, that is to say 4.11 in the afternoon, and then the end of

 2     twilight, 16.43.  Is that typical, would you say, of that part of year?

 3        A.   Well, the second half of November the day grows much shorter.

 4     That much is known.  I didn't know, of course, these parameters, but I

 5     did say it was around 5.30, and here it says around 5.00.  So that's

 6     roughly it.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would like to tender this document into

 8     evidence.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D89, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zivanovic, I suppose when the time comes for

12     submissions we would hear what you would invite the Chamber to make of

13     this, but looking at it now, I'm wondering whether to what extent things

14     like cloud cover are taken in account of and, therefore, what utility

15     this report made years after the fact would be, but no doubt we would

16     hear from you at the appropriate time.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't believe that they took into account

18     clouds and all these factors, but it is indication when is sunset and

19     when is usual time when the dark is at the time at this specific

20     location, and in our submission it could be very, very important for --

21     for the Chamber.

22             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, at this point the Prosecution's not

23     taking any position regarding that.  We can see the information.  It's

24     not disputing it at this point, but we would disagree with

25     Mr. Zivanovic's conclusion that it factors in clouds and other factors as

Page 7129

 1     this is from the astronomy institute and therefore it appears to be

 2     simply looking at when technically the sun had set and when twilight

 3     would technically end without taking in weather conditions, because there

 4     is no mention of that in this document itself.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  All that is on the record now.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] I've managed to find your evidence.  It's 4694,

 9     and the page is 31.  Or 11973.  That's the exact page of the transcript.

10     It's line 11.  I'll read this out for you since it's in English and you

11     will receive interpretation:

12             [In English] "Q.  Yesterday you said that you saw

13     Mr. Sljivancanin at the government session, and you said you were there

14     very briefly.  Tell me:  Where did you see him, and what was he doing at

15     the government session?

16             "A.  He was with Vukasinovic.  He was standing on the side when I

17     saw him in the hall, when I saw him there."

18             [Interpretation] My impression of this answer is that you stated

19     that you did see Sljivancanin during the government meeting there.

20        A.   I spoke to Mr. Vojnovic before the government meeting began,

21     although we were in the same room, but the government meeting had not

22     started yet, and that was when I saw them.  So I did see him in that same

23     room.  After that I went to Negoslavci.

24        Q.   You did not speak to Sljivancanin or Vukasinovic on that

25     occasion?

Page 7130

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Since you did go to Vukovar later on, do you know for how long

 3     did the military administration remain in town?

 4        A.   I don't recall specifically.  I think for a couple of months.

 5        Q.   Do you recall who the commander of the Vukovar was?

 6        A.   Was it Lieutenant-Colonel or Colonel Vojnovic.  I think his first

 7     name was Milorad, if my memory serves me well, though I'm not sure.

 8        Q.   Did you see him on this day, the 20th of November?

 9        A.   I don't remember.

10        Q.   During these combat operations and as long as the Petrova Gora

11     detachment existed, do you remember if members of the Petrova Gora

12     detachment received any sort of reimbursement for their engagement, let's

13     say, a salary?

14        A.   Yes.  All members of the TO, including the Petrova Gora

15     detachment; for instance, Luzac was under the entire operations group.

16     All those who were there either within the Operations Group North or

17     South received their salaries from the JNA.

18        Q.   Can you tell me, what period this applied to, although you did

19     leave early year on?

20        A.   Yes, I left earlier on, but I'm sure that this situation

21     prevailed for at least another month.

22        Q.   After the liberation of Vukovar?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Yesterday you discussed various events in Vukovar prior to the

25     outbreak of conflicts.  Reviewing your earlier evidence, I saw that you

Page 7131

 1     were once involved in an incident with individuals who sported the

 2     Ustasha insignia.  Can you tell us something more specific about that?

 3        A.   It happened after I had exhausted my annual leave and when I

 4     reported for my first day of work.  Now, on that day we were released

 5     early from work at around noon.  Since there were no more Serbs at work,

 6     tensions were high.  There were no buses running outside of Vukovar, and

 7     therefore there was no need for us to work for longer than one shift.

 8             On the road in the direction of Djergaj there's a bridge.  That's

 9     where the ZNG and police had a check-point.  They pulled us over there.

10     The policeman took the IDs of all three of us.  He then motioned to a ZNG

11     member to join him.  The ZNG member started harassing the driver.  What I

12     saw then was on his left jacket pocket of his uniform and there was a

13     large bronze sign as large as the pocket itself.  It had a large U, and

14     beneath it read "The Ustasha Renaissance" or "awakening."

15        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you said that Petrova Gora, the

16     neighbourhood itself, was predominantly inhabited by the Serbs, although

17     there were other ethnicities present.  When the Petrova Gora detachment

18     was set up, did it consist of Serbs only or were there members of other

19     ethnicities?  And we're talking about the time when the hostilities had

20     already broken out, September and later.

21        A.   There were Ruthenians, Croats, Italians, and they all joined the

22     TO voluntarily.  I know there was someone whose nickname was Medo.  I

23     can't his first and last name now.  I know that he worked in Trpinje, in

24     a collective for agricultural products.  He was with us throughout the

25     wartime period.

Page 7132

 1             After liberation, he could have stayed on, but he decided to

 2     leave.  He had family in Croatia, so he went perhaps to Zagreb.  I can't

 3     remember exactly where, and later we heard from his neighbours or,

 4     rather, his mother, that they had sent him to the battle-field in Bosnia

 5     and that he had been killed by Croats from behind.

 6        Q.   When you spoke about the commanders of TO companies, you also

 7     mentioned the command of the 4th Company, I believe, Sinisa Fot was his

 8     name.  Tell me, was he a Serb?

 9        A.   Sinisa Fot was a Croat who attended all the meetings, and he was

10     a fervent supporter of Yugoslavia.  After those meetings he was arrested

11     by the Croats in town and tortured by them.  They broke his collarbone,

12     and after that he joined us and he was a real fighter.

13        Q.   What happened to him in the course of the war?

14        A.   He was killed on the 2nd October when the Guards Brigade launched

15     an attack somewhere near Dalmatinska Street to the right of the barracks.

16     Well, the streets in that neighbourhood are very narrow.  There was no

17     shelter.  He had a flak jacket on him, but a sniper bullet hit him just

18     below the armpit.

19        Q.   I also saw the name Darko Fot.  Could you tell us whether he a

20     Serb or not?

21        A.   He was his elder brother.  He was also seriously wounded that

22     day.  He was wounded in the stomach, but he survived and works in

23     Novi Sad for the customs office.  They managed to get him out of the

24     battle-field.

25        Q.   In the footage of Velepromet, you also recognised Rade Kosic.

Page 7133

 1        A.   Vlado Kosic.  Vlado Kosic, I believe.

 2        Q.   Perhaps I made a mistake.

 3        A.   I think it is Vlado Kosic.

 4        Q.   Do you know what sort of work he did?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I know that later he became the director of the

 6     water supply company.  I know he worked in Save Kovacevica Street and I

 7     was with my brother in Vasilje Gica.  So he was one street down.  I was

 8     staying with my brother until I got married.

 9        Q.   Yesterday the Prosecution mentioned someone called Bibic, and

10     then two names appeared, Rajko or Srbobran.

11        A.   Milos.  Everyone called him Rajko.  I can't say that his actual

12     name wasn't Srbobran, but everyone called him Rajko.  I never heard

13     anyone calling him Srbobran.

14        Q.   I'm asking you because perhaps there are several Bibics.

15     Perhaps they are two different individuals.

16        A.   Yes, they both worked in the agricultural collective, Rajko was

17     the director, and Milos was a reserve officer and had some sort of work

18     in the administration.

19        Q.   I'm interested in the same document that is on the screen now,

20     but the page, I believe, is 14.  Fourteen.

21             Amongst other things, if I -- if I understood you correctly, you

22     said that at that meeting in Velepromet the army was asked to establish a

23     civilian authority structure.  I'll try and find the place now.  I think

24     it's on the following page.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours --

Page 7134

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Or page 16.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  -- I was going to say I think it was on the

 3     previous page.  If the Defence counsel is referring to the witness's

 4     conversation with Mr. Hadzic, it's on transcript page 11955.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No.  No.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Okay.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't.  I think that it was said in another

 8     context.  It is this page, line 21.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll read what it says in the transcript:

10             [In English] "Q.  Mr. Jaksic, explain something for all of us

11     here.  Pressure exerted on the army, what does this mean exactly?

12     Tension against the army, what does this mean exactly?

13             "A.  This was to make the military administration transform into

14     a civilian government, and, in part, it had to do with the prisoners.  I

15     can't remember all the details."

16             [Interpretation] Do you remember that that was your answer, the

17     pressure for civilian authorities to be established was mentioned?

18        A.   This had to do with war criminals being put on trial.  The

19     civilian authority should do so.  The army wasn't to transfer them to

20     Serbia.  Civilian organs were to function.  The judiciary was to put them

21     on trial.  So that is the context.  That is what the issue was about.

22        Q.   But don't you remember who was against this idea at the meeting?

23     Did someone or did anyone say, No, we can't do this?

24        A.   I can't remember.  There's a lot of noise from all sides.  I

25     didn't hear one individual standing up and speaking.  Everyone was

Page 7135

 1     speaking.  There was a lot of commotion all the time.

 2        Q.   Please tell me, you didn't stay until the end of the meeting.

 3     You told Vojnovic what Mrksic had told you and then you left.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And one other thing.  When you spoke about your shift after

 6     Milovo Brdo fell on the 16th or 17th of November, you said that

 7     Sljivancanin informed you of this decision.  Did you wonder how it is

 8     that Sljivancanin as the chief of security -- he wasn't the commander to

 9     whom you were subordinated.  Did you wonder why he was informing you of

10     such a decision instead of Mrksic who was, in fact, your superior?

11        A.   Since the command and the security organ represented authority in

12     the area, in the area of responsibility of that unit, and Sljivancanin

13     was responsible for the Guards Brigade, well, these two individuals knew

14     each other quite well, and I thought that Mrksic would then say that he

15     would accept the decision.  I was there for a month and a half with

16     Mrksic, but he was there throughout his tour of duty while he was serving

17     in the army, in fact.

18        Q.   You said that you didn't ask for any explanation as to why it was

19     decided.  It was only later that you came to those conclusions.  In other

20     words, you never asked Mrksic why this occurred.

21        A.   I mentioned the reasons last time.  That wasn't the only reason.

22     It was also because my life was threatened.  I had received information

23     from the Military Intelligence Service according to which they were

24     preparing to eliminate me, and that's why I accepted this.  I was an

25     obstacle.  I transferred my power to them and I no longer had a role of

Page 7136

 1     any kind to play.

 2        Q.   When did you receive this information according to which they

 3     were preparing to eliminate you?  How many days prior to the time when

 4     you were replaced, for example?

 5        A.   I can't remember exactly.  There were these six trailers for

 6     humanitarian aid for Vukovar which arrived, and when I asked where they

 7     had gone, why they hadn't been unloaded in Vukovar, when I asked who

 8     signed the relevant document, they then started harassing me, and

 9     Sljivancanin then started an operations procedure.  Then I asked about

10     the troops in Sid and why they were there.  I had certain information.  I

11     also raised this issue.

12        Q.   When you say you raised this issue concerning the trailer --

13        A.   Six trailers.  Six trailer trucks.

14        Q.   I apologise.  Six trailer trucks.  With whom did you raise this

15     issue?  Did you tell anyone about this?  Did you ask anyone to launch an

16     investigation to determine what had happened to these trailer trucks?

17        A.   I first raised the issue in Velepromet.  I wanted to find out who

18     had signed this fake document and who had authorised them to just turn

19     around in Velepromet and return to Serbia.  I then informed the

20     high-level command of the fact and after liberation I heard that they

21     were accompanied by Dusan Spasojevic, also known as Siptar, who was

22     eliminated or killed in the Sablja operation.  He brought them in and he

23     was their cover.  He had an important role in the state, and Sljivancanin

24     probably had an agreement with him, and they then launched this

25     harassment campaign depends me.

Page 7137

 1        Q.   When you say you raised this issue at a high-level command, did

 2     you have the OG south in mind?

 3        A.   Yes.  Correct.

 4        Q.   You followed the same procedure with regard to the cigarettes for

 5     the troops.

 6        A.   The cigarettes or the right amount of cigarettes didn't arrive.

 7     I then asked what had happened with the cigarettes from Sid.  Why had

 8     someone taken cigarettes that were intended for the troops?  We knew how

 9     many cigarettes were to arrive and not even 50 per cent of the cigarettes

10     had arrived.  I also raised this issue.  And in Sid, in the staff I

11     suppose someone launched a campaign against me, and there was this

12     slander, these lies.  They attributed their actions to me and they

13     accused me of black marketeering with cars.  They said that I had a lot

14     of euros in bank accounts and I was very much affected by this.  When you

15     know that you are honest, this is psychologically very damaging.

16        Q.   If I've understood you correctly, since you raised all these

17     issues you were warned about the fact that there were preparations

18     underway for you to be killed.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   This happened --

21        A.   In Velepromet when I was going to the kitchen from the staff, and

22     in front of the kitchen there is a wall, and a sniper bullet just missed

23     me and hit the wall.  I thought it was a stray bullet.  When I returned a

24     bullet whizzed by behind my crown.  I was then aware of what was going

25     on.  I relinquished my duties, the power I had.  I knew I was an obstacle

Page 7138

 1     to them, and I knew I couldn't survive there.  There was a lot of crime.

 2     I couldn't be part of their circle.  This was against my conscience, so I

 3     quite simply withdrew to lead a peaceful life.  I relinquished all the

 4     power that I had and I moved over to a company, and I no longer

 5     participated as a member of the authorities.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you one more thing.  You said that you were being

 7     accused of various misdeeds.  There's no need to reiterate them.  Was a

 8     court proceeding ever instituted against you?

 9        A.   No.  I wish it had been, because then the truth would have come

10     out sooner.  I was contemplating a lawsuit against Mr. Sljivancanin once

11     he got released.  I was contemplating filing a private lawsuit against

12     him for the damage that I sustained on account of him.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

14     questions for you, Witness.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

16             Mr. Olmsted, anything in redirect?

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Mr. President, just briefly.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:

19        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, today you testified that -- that you believe that

20     Mr. Milos Vojnovic sent you to Mrksic, to Colonel Mrksic, because none of

21     the members of government had any contacts with them.  First of all, can

22     you tell us who did you mean when you said "them"?

23        A.   Well, I didn't have information to the effect that any of the

24     government members was in contact with them.

25        Q.   And that's -- that's what I want to clarify.  You're not -- you

Page 7139

 1     don't know the extent of government members' contacts with members of OG

 2     south.  Is that what --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, the witness didn't say that.  It is --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is a leading question, and the witness never

 7     said that he knows about the level of contacts, but he said that he

 8     doesn't know about contacts at all.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Then let me rephrase it the way Defence counsel has

10     suggested.

11        Q.   Sir, were you aware of the level of contacts at all between

12     government officials from SBWS and the OG south command?

13        A.   No.  I didn't know about them having any contact, and I didn't

14     have any information to the effect that they did.

15        Q.   Defence counsel also asked you about your conversation with

16     Mr. Hadzic on the 20th of November regarding the change from a military

17     administration to a civilian administration.  Just so we're very clear on

18     the record, what specifically was discussed between you and Mr. Hadzic

19     during that conversation?

20        A.   Since a military administration was already in place, which meant

21     that in the hospital there was a military physician who was the commander

22     of the hospital, and I told Goran that I was in agreement with that, that

23     civilian authorities should be brought in, that businesses should be

24     revived because that would make it easier for Vuteks and Borovo to become

25     operational again.  Everything was destroyed.  People were panic stricken

Page 7140

 1     as to how they would earn their livelihoods.  There were no businesses.

 2     Nobody was farming the land.  I was also of the view that civilian

 3     authorities should be introduced as soon as possible in order to restore

 4     life to Vukovar so that people would be able to make their earnings.  We

 5     didn't have a single store in Vukovar.  Everything was destroyed.  There

 6     were no infirmaries.  Since the army was there, the police could not

 7     discharge the duties that they would normally perform.  That's why I was

 8     in agreement with him that it would have been better to have civilian

 9     authorities take over from the military administration as soon as may be.

10        Q.   And just to be clear, what did Mr. Hadzic suggest to you?

11        A.   He only suggested that I should use my authority in order to have

12     a civilian administration introduced as soon as possible, that I should

13     work upon the army and that Rajko Bibic should be the president of the

14     Executive Board and that he should be the one to put the government

15     together.  So he should be the prime minister-designate as it were.

16        Q.   And to your knowledge did Mr. Bibic receive that appointment and

17     become president of the Executive Council?

18        A.   Later on, yes.

19        Q.   And you testified today that there was a military administration

20     in Vukovar in placed for a couple of months.  During this period what

21     were the civilian authorities doing in Vukovar?

22        A.   I don't recall exactly.  I only remember that when I formally

23     took up my post within the transport company I co-operated with

24     Mr. Crnogorac, who was minister for transport at the time.  I didn't have

25     any dealings with the others.  With him I was in touch because I had to

Page 7141

 1     see to it that the transport company began work.

 2        Q.   And can you remember when that co-operation began?

 3        A.   I think it was as soon as I took up my duty.  The military

 4     administration was still in place at the time.

 5        Q.   And just so we have a time-frame, when did you take up your duty

 6     with regard to this transportation company?  How soon after the fall of

 7     Vukovar?

 8        A.   That was several days later, I think.  Workers who were there

 9     gathered and suggested that I be the manager and that we should turn

10     former Cazmatrans into the Vukovar transport company.  We immediately

11     proceeded to find vehicles, to repair buildings.  Those who were handymen

12     went home to get tools to repair vehicles.  I had pre-war acquaintances

13     from whom I sought donations, and I managed to put together as many as 32

14     vehicles and put the company on its feet.  It was quite successful.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. Jaksic.

16             Your Honours, I have no further questions.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Olmsted.

19                           Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I have a couple of

21     questions.  The first question, it's about the six trailers that you

22     mentioned today.  What exactly happened with this -- these six trailers,

23     the humanitarian aid trailers?

24        A.   These six trailer trucks carried humanitarian aid in the form of

25     food and clothing for the civilian population of Vukovar.  Subsequently,

Page 7142

 1     I heard that these goods were seen to be sold in the marketplace, so once

 2     more it was being sold to the civilians and somebody gained profit from

 3     it.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Okay.  And there was no

 5     proceeding, legal proceeding, against that?

 6        A.   Not at the time.  I don't know about the later period.  Well, as

 7     far as I remember, the Court never initiated any proceedings for that.

 8             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Second

 9     question:  On page 50 of the transcript yesterday, you talked about

10     Vojnovic's wish to try Croats who were responsible for war crimes or

11     those who had blood in their hands to be judged in the district of

12     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

13             My question is the following:  Throughout all these events during

14     the war, was there any trial organised at the district level to judge one

15     of these Croats who was responsible for war crimes?

16        A.   No.  A trial was held over there in Serbia, because this was at

17     the time when Yugoslavia existed.  It is common knowledge as to who among

18     them received long-term sentences, who were the ones who participated in

19     massacres.  They were convicted.  When Milan Panic became prime minister,

20     he made this humanitarian gesture of handing them over to Serbia.  So

21     they never served their sentences either in Serbia or Croatia.  In fact,

22     they never were held to account for their crimes, and those Serbs who

23     committed crimes in Croatia, they were handed over by Croatia to Serbia

24     on condition that they do serve their sentences in Serbian prisons.

25             When these persons who were convicted were handed over, Glavas

Page 7143

 1     received them, and he spoke openly in front of TV cameras, and he said,

 2     "Now are you free to be the Ustashas."  And we knew who the Ustashas

 3     were.  They were the ones who committed the worst acts, the acts of

 4     genocide during World War II, genocide against the Serbs.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Okay.  Thank you very much.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Jaksic, this brings your testimony to an end.

 8     We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal.

 9     You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back

10     home.  The Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I've just been informed that

15     now the next witness -- she was originally intended to be here in the

16     building at 11.00, but we finished a little bit earlier than anticipated.

17     They're bringing her now at 10.30, so if I could suggest we just take our

18     break now and start at 11.00, which is the usual time.  I think the

19     witness will be ready to begin.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll do that, Mr. Stringer.

21             Court adjourned.  We'll be back at 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  I do

Page 7144

 1     have a preliminary before the next witness is brought in, and it concerns

 2     the exhibits that are both associated or attached with the witness's

 3     92 ter statement and other exhibits that may be tendered in the course of

 4     the examination by the Prosecution.  A large number of these exhibits are

 5     not translated into B/C/S, and these exhibits are for the most part short

 6     documents.  They are reports written by the witness or by others to other

 7     individuals inside UNPROFOR or within the United Nations.

 8             Now, my understanding of the case law is that once an exhibit is

 9     intended to be admitted, once it will be admitted as evidence, then it

10     must be translated for the accused, and I can say that he has not had the

11     opportunity to review a great many of the documents that will now be

12     tendered with this witness's statement and her testimony.  So to a large

13     extent the prejudice has already been suffered and we'll have to live

14     with that.  As a remedy at this point, Mr. President, and I know you're

15     always anxious to ask me, Well, what should be done, I would suggest that

16     at a minimum none of the documents for which there is no B/C/S

17     translation should be admitted at this stage, and they can be tendered at

18     a later stage, including with reference to what may have been said by the

19     witness, but at least for the time being we would request that none of

20     these documents that do not have a B/C/S translation be admitted.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, if I could take this one.  I'm

22     looking and I'm not finding the e-mail exchange that occurred between the

23     parties and Chambers last September before the trial started.  At that

24     time, the Chamber instructed the parties that all documents in B/C/S had

25     to be translated into English and up on e-court.  We specifically raised

Page 7145

 1     the question at that time, given the competing -- excuse me, competing

 2     resource issues relating to translated documents.  The Prosecution

 3     expressly asked the Chamber's guidance at that time whether the

 4     Prosecution would be obligated to obtain B/C/S translations of English

 5     documents.  With a couple more minutes I can find the e-mail exchange in

 6     which the Chamber informed the parties that that was not the case, and

 7     that has never been -- it's been questioned on occasion, I think from the

 8     Defence, but the objections that have just been raised now certainly have

 9     not been raised with us with respect to any of the exhibits that are on

10     the list for this witness.  This is something that I don't believe

11     counsel has indicated he intended to raise.  But in any event, this goes

12     back to the days before the trial, and we have not obtained translations

13     into B/C/S of the documents because we're not required to.

14             I think it bears noting on the record that from our observation

15     the accused does seem to have the capability to communicate in English,

16     and before we go about considering whether we're going to change the

17     rules at this very late stage in the Prosecution case on preparation of

18     translations, if the Chamber's minded to change the rules at this late

19     phase, I think we're entitled to know really whether the accused is

20     completely unable to read the documents or is he able to read them to

21     some extent.  Certainly he communicates with his counsel in English.

22     It's a resource issue and if the Chamber is inclined to change the rules

23     which we oppose and, in fact, at this late stage we're not going to be

24     able to get translations done in the way and within the time-frame that's

25     proposed now.

Page 7146

 1             Is it really necessary?  That's question number two.  Our

 2     issue -- response number two, I should say, issue.  Response number one

 3     is it's not a requirement.  It was expressly made not to be a requirement

 4     prior to the beginning of the trial after the issue was expressly raised

 5     by the Prosecution.  We're a bit blind-sided by it now, and we most

 6     strongly would resist the Chamber changing the rules that it's laid out

 7     at the beginning.  And just for the record, if I could --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You're looking for the e-mail now, Mr. Stringer?

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  It's an e-mail received from the Chamber's

10     Legal Officer on the 18th of September this year -- sorry, last year.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I didn't have the date nor the e-mail in front of

12     me yet, but, Mr. Gosnell, you must know about it.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Briefly in respond to those comments,

14     Mr. President.  Number one, we did raise this matter at the beginning of

15     the trial.  We did say that we expected exhibits that were actually going

16     to be tendered to be translated into B/C/S.  Thus far, it has not been a

17     very significant problem because at least based on my interaction with

18     the exhibits most of them have ultimately been translated, and as you may

19     know, Your Honours, that's done on a rolling basis, and those are then

20     uploaded to e-court and then they're provided in that way.

21             What we're dealing with here is a very, very -- an exceptionally

22     large number of documents that have not been translated and that is the

23     difference between this and what has gone on in the past.

24             In terms of Mr. Hadzic's ability, he can deal with short

25     documents and there's no disagreement with about that, and I can state

Page 7147

 1     that for the record.  But if you're dealing with anything that becomes

 2     complicated or lengthy he cannot handle that, he cannot understand that

 3     adequately, and I cannot consult with him adequately when it comes to

 4     longer documents and certainly in respect of the volume involved here.

 5             And finally, Mr. President, I'm only making an application in

 6     respect of this witness at this time because that's where we have a

 7     problem.  The numbers are very significant in terms of this witness, in

 8     terms of the documents that have not been translated.  And one caveat as

 9     well is my understanding of the case law is that translations are not

10     required for public United Nations documents, so lengthy reports,

11     resolutions and so forth.  In previous cases that has not been required,

12     but when you're dealing with internal correspondence reporting to be

13     contemporaneous accounts of facts on the ground, that's important

14     evidence, and it ought to be translated.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In spite of the guidelines we gave in the

17     18 September e-mail, Mr. Gosnell, and if so, I'm a little bit surprised

18     by your timing.  If this is such a huge problem for this witness because

19     of the volume of documents, shouldn't you have given the Trial Chamber

20     and the OTP notice of your objection?

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes.  It's not the most timely objection,

22     Mr. President, that's true.  It should have -- it should have been

23     brought last week when we became aware of the problem, and I regret that,

24     and if Your Honours are minded to dismiss this application on the basis

25     that it's untimely, then of course we'll accept that.

Page 7148

 1             If I could just have a moment, Mr. President, to look at the

 2     e-mail.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  I'm doing the same right now.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes.  Mr. President, I do see that, and I suppose

 5     we're bound by that instruction.  So I will -- I will withdraw that

 6     application.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness may be brought in.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Perhaps I can quickly make an appearance,

 9     Your Honours.  Lisa Biersay, on behalf of the Prosecution, and I am being

10     assisted by our intern, Simona Onicel.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning.  Good -- no, it's still morning.

14     Good morning, Mrs. Witness.

15             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please state your name and date of

17     birth.

18             THE WITNESS:  I am Blandina Francis Negga, and I was born on the

19     25th of September, 1933.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  And thank you for coming to

21     The Hague to assist the Tribunal.  You are about to make the solemn

22     declaration, madam, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the

23     truth.  I have to point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself

24     to the penalties of perjury should you give false or untruthful

25     information to the Tribunal.  Can I now ask you to read the solemn

Page 7149

 1     declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 3     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  BLANDINA FRANCIS NEGGA

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Negga.  You may be seated.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your witness.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Before we begin, I have conferred with the Defence regarding

12     giving Mrs. Negga some hard copies because she does have some

13     difficulties viewing documents on the screen because of her recent

14     surgery.  If I may.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

18                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

19        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Negga.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   Could we begin by asking you, can you hear me okay?

22        A.   Yes, I can.

23        Q.   And are you comfortably seated?

24        A.   Yes, I am.

25        Q.   That chair is a one-size fits all, I'm afraid.  Okay.  Thank you.

Page 7150

 1     Mrs. Negga, could you tell the Trial Chamber where you were born?

 2        A.   I was born in Barbuda, British West Indies.

 3        Q.   Now, what position did you hold from approximately May 1992 to

 4     August of 1993?

 5        A.   I was a civil affairs co-ordinator for UNPROFOR in the former

 6     Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   In which sector were you?

 8        A.   I was in Sector East.

 9        Q.   Now, could you -- the Trial Chamber has heard evidence about

10     Sector East, so could you just very briefly geographically describe where

11     that sector was?

12        A.   Sector East was a part of Croatia which borders on the Danube,

13     and it includes such townships as Vukovar, Ilok, Beli Manastir in the

14     north on the Hungarian border, and, of course, Osijek, which was the

15     Croatian territory on another part outside the confrontation line.

16        Q.   When you use the term "confrontation line," what do you mean by

17     that?

18        A.   Well, there was fighting in the former Yugoslavia, in --

19     specifically in Eastern Slavonia, and there is a line between Osijek in

20     Croatia and the settled territory -- the territory settled by the Serbs,

21     which was made -- which came to be known as the United Nations protected

22     area or Sector East, and between those areas you had confrontation lines

23     where there were mined areas and difficult territory.

24        Q.   And in this Sector East, what were your primary duties?

25        A.   Well, I was a political officer, and I co-ordinated the work of

Page 7151

 1     the military, the civilian police, and the civil affairs administration.

 2     My main problem -- my main task was to ensure the implementation of the

 3     Vance Plan and to have all the UN units working together, because we did

 4     work with the ICRC and UNHCR and other entities, and we were supposed to

 5     bring the Croats and the Serbs together to determine how they will decide

 6     to leave in peace.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Negga, on a day-to-day basis while you were the civil

 8     affairs co-ordinator in Sector East, what occupied most of your time?

 9        A.   Most of my time was occupied by the complaints of the minority

10     groups in the area who wanted relief, respite, or just the chance to

11     escape into -- into the Croatian occupied part of the territory.

12        Q.   And from what did they seek relief and respite or a chance to

13     escape?

14        A.   Well, the minorities, mainly the Croats, Slovaks, Romans, they

15     were being driven out of the area to make room for the incoming refugees

16     from other parts of the former Yugoslavia, mainly from Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     and other areas.

18        Q.   And these refugees, were they -- the ones coming in, were they

19     Croats, Slovaks or Romanians that were all coming in?

20        A.   No, they were all Serbs.  They were all Serbs coming in.

21        Q.   I would like to now direct your attention to June 2012.

22     In June 2012, did you sign a statement given to the Office

23     of the Prosecutor?

24        A.   I did.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  And now may I please ask the Registrar to display

Page 7152

 1     the English original of 65 ter number 2794, which is tab 5.

 2        Q.   And you have that in your binder, I believe, Mrs. Negga.  And

 3     it's dated 7 June 2012.  And if possible, if we could go directly to

 4     page 4, B/C/S page 4.  And for you, Mrs. Negga, it would be simply marked

 5     as page 1 at the bottom where there is your name --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   -- and date of birth.  If we could also in the English go to

 8     page -- page 4 in the English.  Thank you.

 9             Mrs. Negga, do you recognise this page?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   What do you recognise it to be?

12        A.   It's my witness statement.

13        Q.   Do you recognise any of the signatures at the bottom of that

14     page.

15        A.   Yes, my own signature, Blandina Francis Negga.

16        Q.   And did you subsequently initial the pages thereafter?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   Now, when you prepared and signed your statement in June 20 --

19     excuse me, 2012, were certain documents referenced in your statement?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you also reviewed those; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   If we could now go to the very first page of the document.  And,

24     Mrs. Negga, after you reviewed and signed your statement, did you meet

25     with a representative from the Registrar?

Page 7153

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   And did the representative certify your statement?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And if we could go to the very first page of the entire exhibit.

 5     Thank you.

 6             And directing your attention to this page, do you recognise this

 7     page as well that we're looking at, which is the very first page.  Not

 8     the first page of your statement, but the part where the certification by

 9     the Registrar.  So if you flip to the beginning, one more --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you see it?

12        A.   "Declaration by a person making a written."

13        Q.   And you signed a certification attesting to the truthfulness of

14     your statement; is that correct?

15        A.   I did.

16        Q.   Now, in preparation for your appearance today, have you had an

17     opportunity to read and review your 2012 statement?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And when you reviewed it, did you find some items that you wanted

20     to modify?

21        A.   I found two minor, but they were more editorial than factual.

22        Q.   Well, perhaps we could look at paragraph 113, which is -- I

23     believe, in e-court it will be page 25 in the English, but for you,

24     Mrs. Negga, it will be page 21 that will be written at the bottom of

25     your -- of your statement.  Do you see it?

Page 7154

 1        A.   Yes, I have it.

 2        Q.   I'm now directing your attention to the second to last sentence

 3     in paragraph 113?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what in that sentence, if anything, would you like to -- to

 6     strike?

 7        A.   I would like to strike after the penultimate line "RSK."  I would

 8     like to strike the rest of the sentence and just put a full stop after

 9     "RSK."  Because the sentence goes on to read -- the whole sentence says:

10             "I heard about legislation granting RSK citizenship to persons of

11     Serbian nationality residing outside the RSK, was familiar with some

12     discriminatory RSK legislation such as."

13             I am not familiar with the legislation nor can I recall having

14     seen such legislation.  So I suggest that you end the sentence at the

15     second RSK in that -- in that sentence.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Negga.  And I believe the next one that you had

17     referred to was on page 24 for you, Mrs. Negga.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  For the Registry it would be page 28, and it would

19     be in paragraph 137.  And again it would be the second line from the

20     bottom and it says "other at in," and if I'm correct you wanted to strike

21     the word "at."

22        A.   That's quite correct.

23        Q.   Now, with these corrections made, is the statement truthful and

24     accurate?

25        A.   It is.

Page 7155

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Just verifying one matter.  So, Your Honours, at

 2     this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter number 2794 as well as the

 3     associated exhibits listed in tabs 1 through 71 of the exhibit list that

 4     was forwarded to the Defence and the Trial Chamber.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm terribly sorry, Mr. President.  I think there's

 6     one more question that needs to be asked.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One more [overlapping speakers]

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me -- excuse me.

 9        Q.   Ms. Negga, if you were asked the same questions today would you

10     in substance give the same answers?

11        A.   Yes, I would.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.  And at this time I would resubmit for

13     admission 65 ter number 2794 and its associated exhibits.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement will become Exhibit P2398,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MS. BIERSAY:

19        Q.   Now, Mrs. Negga, in paragraph 85 of your statement, which is on

20     page 16, you discuss Arkan's Tigers being seen in the sector armed with

21     long weapons.  And in your statement you describe that these very weapons

22     were forbidden under the Vance Plan; is that correct?

23        A.   That is correct.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Now, I'd like to, if we could, go to 65 ter number

25     5250, which should be tab 119.

Page 7156

 1        Q.   And that should also be in your -- in your binder.  And for the

 2     record, this is dated 16 September 1992, and it's described as an

 3     UNPROFOR UNCIVPOL headquarter Sector East report from Larry W. Moore

 4     entitled:  "Minutes of meeting with Baranja authorities on 16

 5     September 1992."

 6             Now, Mrs. Negga, if you could go to the -- and also with the

 7     Registry if we could go to page 3, which is the last page of the

 8     document.  Go to the very bottom.  At the bottom there are the initials

 9     L.W. and the last name Moore.  Do you know that person?

10        A.   Yes, I do.

11        Q.   And who is it?

12        A.   Larry Moore was the deputy civil police monitor in the sector.

13        Q.   And during the course of your tenure, would you receive reports

14     and briefings from him?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, directing your attention back to the first page, I'd like to

17     look at the second paragraph listing the attendees, and it lists UNPROFOR

18     representatives as Colonel Jockin, Mrs. Negga, Corwin, Maldeghem,

19     Sergeant Moore.  Do you recognise those names?

20        A.   Yes, do.

21        Q.   Now, of course there is your name.  Who is Colonel Jockin?

22        A.   Colonel Jockin was the head of the Belgian battalion that was

23     stationed in Beli Manastir on the Hungarian border.

24        Q.   And the reference to Sergeant Moore, is that reference to?

25        A.   To Larry Moore of CIVPOL.

Page 7157

 1        Q.   Now, it described as well local authorities were represented by

 2     Mr. Zivanovic, Mr. Latas, and Mr. Vranac and three other men.  Do you see

 3     that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you recall this meeting held on September 16th, 1992?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And why is it that you recall that meeting?

 8        A.   It was somewhat vituperous because Mr. Zivanovic felt that

 9     UNPROFOR was unfriendly towards the Serbs and the meeting ended in

10     disarray.

11        Q.   And regarding that, if I could direct you to the discussion

12     regarding Mr. Zivanovic and it's the last -- the beginning of the last

13     paragraph where it reads Mr. Zivanovic - you see that? - and it's on page

14     1 of the document if you go back.

15        A.   Mm-hmm.

16        Q.   And towards the bottom of the page it says:  Mr. Zivanovic.  Do

17     you see that?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   And specifically I wanted to look at number 1 that summarises

20     what Mr. Zivanovic had to say.  He said:

21             "UNPROFOR had lost the trust of the Serbian people and the local

22     authorities because it did not choose to fulfil its humanitarian

23     mandate."

24             Is that what you were referring to when you described

25     Mr. Zivanovic's view regarding UNPROFOR?

Page 7158

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And turning to the next page, looking at number 4 it says -- it

 3     receipts:

 4              "Today, the Baranja has given its reply as to the return of the

 5     refugees."

 6             What was the -- the reply regarding the return of refugees?

 7        A.   The -- it was determined that the time was not appropriate.

 8        Q.   And the return for which refugees?

 9        A.   The -- the Croatians who had been living in the area and the

10     other minority groups who had been living in the area.

11        Q.   And underneath number 5, "He," presumably Mr. Zivanovic,

12     "informed us that he will go on radio Beli Manastir to report the above

13     to the public."  Do you recall that from the meeting?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Now, in paragraph 5 that I skipped, Mr. Zivanovic's position was

16     that UNPROFOR had tried to use blackmailing tactics to arrange a meeting

17     between authorities on both sides of the conflict.  Do you -- do you

18     remember that allegation?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   What was your response regarding that allegation?

21        A.   I dismissed it, because our function there was to bring the two

22     sides together to discuss how they will get over the -- they would get

23     beyond what had happened and just how they would decide to live together

24     in peace.

25        Q.   Now, in the second full paragraph from the end that reads,

Page 7159

 1     "Thereupon, Mr. Zivanovic."  I'd like to focus on the last sentence in

 2     that paragraph which connects to the paragraph we looked at in your

 3     statement about disarming.  And Mr. Zivanovic stated that just as

 4     UNPROFOR was bound by its instructions, he could not discuss

 5     demilitarisation until he received instructions from Knin.  Do you see

 6     that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What did you understand him to mean by that?

 9        A.   I understood that they got directions from above, and they

10     couldn't exercise initiative, and they had to wait to be told what to say

11     and how to react to our proposals.

12        Q.   Towards the end of this report, Moore describes what could be

13     expected as consequences based on the content of this meeting, and I'd

14     like to focus your attention on number 1 where he writes:

15              "There will probably be an increase in terrorist activities and

16     in anti-UNPROFOR back-lash since the proposed radio interview could be

17     used as a means of inciting the population."

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then I'd like to look at number 2, which is on the next page,

21     and again focusing on the disarming process it reads:

22             "There could well be another further deadlock in the disarming

23     process continues it is claimed that the instructions must be received

24     from Knin."

25             What was your experience after this meeting regarding the

Page 7160

 1     disarming process within Sector East?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that.

 3        Q.   Did disarming proceed as provided under the Vance Plan after the

 4     meeting?

 5        A.   No.  No, it didn't.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we would tender 65 ter

 7     number 5250.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2399, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MS. BIERSAY:

12        Q.   Now, in paragraph 28 of your statement, you describe that quickly

13     your main focus became to prevent further ethnic cleansing across the

14     sector, and you defined what you understood to be ethnic cleansing, which

15     is to mean riding an area of all people so that one group remains.  In

16     this case, Serbs were to be the sole remaining group in the area.

17             Do you recall that from your statement?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At this time, if we could take a look, please, at 65 ter

20     number 1279, which should be tab 153, dated 27 September 1992, a press

21     article entitled:  "Killing that makes Croatia fit for Serbs," published

22     by "The Independent."  And I'd first turn my attention to the very first

23     paragraph under the word "Body."  Do you have it, Ms. Negga?  Can I

24     assist?

25        A.   No, I don't.

Page 7161

 1        Q.   It has the tab number 153 and it should be in sequential order.

 2     So probably at the very back.  Oh, excuse me -- yes.

 3        A.   No, my last tab is 152.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And I -- I'll -- I'll skip that one.  If you take a look

 5     at the screen, are you able to read it or is it too difficult to read?

 6        A.   Could it be enlarged?

 7        Q.   Let's try.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So we can even enlarge it further by -- there we go.  And

10     it reads:

11             "This is now the land of the Serbian people.  And so it will stay

12     for the next 1.000 years.  If the Croats do not like it, we will start a

13     new war."

14             And this is attributed to Borivoje Zivanovic, a Serb who was

15     referring to Baranja.  There was also a Zivanovic referenced in the

16     document that we just looked at.  Is this the same Zivanovic or a

17     different Zivanovic?

18        A.   I think it's the same Zivanovic.

19        Q.   Now, if we go to the -- the second page, at the top.  It reads:

20             "Colonel Jean-Marie Jockin, the UN military chief in Baranja

21     said, 'Terrorists activities are going on.  This means shooting people,

22     beating, torture, and robbery.'"

23             And you previously described who Mr. Jockin was.  Was that your

24     experience in Sector East regarding acts of what he calls terrorist

25     activities?

Page 7162

 1        A.   Yes, it was.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  At this stage I'm compelled to object.  We're

 4     leading the witness too much, I think, at this point.  The witness has

 5     eloquently set forth her testimony in her 92 ter statement, and she can

 6     answer questions here, but putting propositions from a newspaper article

 7     without knowing precisely the basis for the journalist's indication of

 8     this information I would suggest that that's leading.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  The witness has described her experience in her

10     statement, and she just described through a report the challenges being

11     faced by UNPROFOR.  And this is not leading.  The question I asked called

12     for a yes or no answer the way it was phrased.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

14             MS. BIERSAY:

15        Q.   Towards the middle of the page, the paragraph that begins

16     "Meanwhile."  It describes an elderly Croatian couple being killed, and

17     it reads:

18             "'Mr. Andric had his guts cut out and his wife had her head blown

19     off,' Blandina, a UN civil affairs coordinator in eastern Croatia ..." is

20     that quote correctly attributed to you?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   And it goes on to say that you describe the high level of

23     terrorism in UN zones adding that:

24             "99 per cent of the victims were non-Serbs.  The pattern is

25     threats followed by bombings, followed by killing."

Page 7163

 1             Again, is that quote properly attributed to you?

 2        A.   It is.

 3        Q.   And did that pattern exist throughout your tenure in Sector East?

 4        A.   Yes.  It was replicated in other villages and other areas.

 5        Q.   And now directing your -- your attention to the last paragraph

 6     where it begins "Ms. Negga":

 7              "Ms. Negga linked the rise in terrorism to the busing into

 8     Baranja, mostly [sic] by night, of thousands of Serbian refugees from

 9     Bosnia and other parts of Croatia."

10             Is that information properly attributed to you?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   And was it accurate?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we would tender 65 ter number 1279

15     for admission into evidence.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2400.

18             MS. BIERSAY:

19        Q.   I'd now like to move to -- let's see if this is in your binder,

20     Mrs. Negga.  Tab -- do you have tab 123?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  And for the Registry, that's 65 ter number 5260.

24     It's dated 28 September 1992, an UNPROFOR letter.

25        Q.   Now, in paragraph 120 in your statement, you describe that life

Page 7164

 1     had become simply so unbearable for non-Serbs that they -- they had to

 2     leave, and I'd like to address that in the context of this exhibit.  If

 3     we could please go to the second page first, because it's dated before

 4     the first page.  Oh, forgive me.  The third page.

 5             Do you have the page, the letter that begins "Dear Mrs. Negga"?

 6     I think that's --

 7        A.   No, I don't.  I have my reply, but not --

 8        Q.   Okay.  Could you -- could we just check to see -- or if I could

 9     get the binder back, perhaps I can find the missing document.  If I could

10     have some assistance.

11             Could we enlarge the -- the section that reads "Dear Mrs. Negga."

12     If we -- could we make it just a little bit smaller, and I will show the

13     heading to Mrs. Negga.

14             And it's addressed to you, Mrs. Blandina Francis Negga, and it's

15     from Mr. Milan Ilic, president of Regional Council, and it's written at

16     the top that it's the Serbian district of Slavonia, Baranja, and

17     Western Srem.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And do you recall this letter that he sent to you?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Now, if we could go down to the first paragraph, and I'll -- I'll

22     read it slowly.  It reads:

23             "According to our talks we had in Regional Council on

24     21st of September concerning transfer of some seven people from the

25     settlement of Svinjarevci," I'm sure you have better pronunciation,

Page 7165

 1     Ms. Negga, "I must inform you that I sent a letter immediately to our

 2     internal affairs office in Vukovar, asking them to issue a permission

 3     that those people in question can leave this territory and go to the

 4     other (Croatian) side."

 5             Could you give us some context for that?

 6        A.   This village of Svinjarevci they were all the people continually

 7     harassed, threatened, and physically handled, and they wished to go over

 8     to Osijek to escape that type of treatment.

 9        Q.   And now if I could move to the third paragraph.  Again Mr. Ilic

10     continues saying:

11             "The internal affair officer promised me that this very day they

12     receive such request from those people.  They are going to issue a

13     permission for them to leave this territory and go to Croatian side."

14             And in response to that you sent a letter to Mr. Ilic; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And that would be the very first page of the document.  And I do

18     have a hard copy of that.  If we could just assist Mrs. Negga's eyes a

19     bit.  Thank you.  And I would like to focus on the -- I'd like to focus

20     on the paragraph that begins "Although":

21             You wrote:

22             "Although I can understand that in normal situations one must

23     file an application with the internal affairs office in Vukovar for

24     permission to leave the territory in order to ensure safe return in

25     future, your request in this instance seems cynical and unjustified.  It

Page 7166

 1     would be a cruel hoax to pretend that these unfortunate people were

 2     leaving their homes and their community voluntarily.

 3             "Quite simply, it would be a lie."

 4             What was the basis for your characterisation?

 5        A.   Well, the practice was that anyone who left the territory

 6     voluntarily would have their property immediately confiscated.  Those who

 7     wanted to return would have to prove that they were not consorting with

 8     the Croatian side and that they were loyal to the Serbian side.  In my

 9     opinion, the repeated efforts to push people over the border was mainly

10     to confiscate their property and make those properties available to the

11     incoming refugees, and I thought that they wanted UNPROFOR to somehow

12     collude in this matter, and I just couldn't, and that is why I wrote this

13     paragraph.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  And -- and at this time we move for the admission

15     of 65 ter number 5260.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2401.

18             MS. BIERSAY:

19        Q.   Now, again picking up on the -- the words you wrote in the

20     statement regarding ethnic cleansing, I'd like to look at 65 ter

21     number 1272, which may be in your -- in your binder.  If we could just

22     have some assistance from the -- assistance from the Registry in checking

23     the binder for that, and in the meantime, if we could please turn to

24     65 ter number 1272, tab 75.  And that is dated 22 September, 1992, a

25     press article entitled:  "Non-Serbs killed as ethnic cleansing surges in

Page 7167

 1     Croatia," published by "The Guardian" on that date.

 2             Now, I'd like to go down to the paragraph which I think is the

 3     fourth one that begins "Blandina Negga."  It references you as the UN

 4     civil affairs co-ordinator for the eastern region, and it's:

 5             "According to this, Blandina Negga said that while the scale of

 6     the Bosnian refugee influx had yet to be established, the ethnic

 7     cleansing programme had been carefully planned.  She admitted that the UN

 8     forces authorised to administer the area under last January's UN peace

 9     plan were powerless to prevent the resettlement."

10             Mrs. Negga, is that information accurately attributed to you?

11        A.   It is.

12        Q.   And is the information correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what was your basis for concluding that the US -- the UN

15     peace plan was powerless to prevent the resettlement?

16        A.   The UN forces were sent in to stand between the Croatians and the

17     Serbs.  They were not there to perform any local services.  They -- for

18     example, the civilian police could not apprehend or administer justice.

19     They were there to monitor the local police, to draw any -- any --

20     anything that was out of the ordinary to their attention and to advise

21     them how situations could be corrected.  They could not themselves

22     initiate action to prevent any upcoming settlement or whatnot.  They were

23     just there to advise and not to act.

24        Q.   And along those lines was UNPROFOR permitted to prosecute crimes?

25        A.   They were not.  They were only there to draw to the attention of

Page 7168

 1     the police and the prosecutor what was happening and to monitor their

 2     actions.

 3        Q.   And now directing your attention to the next paragraph in which

 4     you're again quoted.  You describe it as:

 5             "'It's very organised,' she said.  'They're given houses by the

 6     local authorities or put up as guests in the homes of non-Serbs who end

 7     up leaving in most instances.  It's not part of our mandate to stop

 8     refugees coming into the area.  Virtually all of the houses abandoned by

 9     Croats during the war were now inhabited,' she added."

10             Is that information correctly attributed to you?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And is it correct?

13        A.   It is.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time, we tender 65 ter 1272.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  P2402, Your Honours.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Now, hopefully you have tab 36, so it should be

18     before the document.  Could we have some assistance in identifying tab 36

19     for Mrs. Negga.  And that is 65 ter number 5241.  Could we please have

20     displayed on e-court 5241.

21        Q.   Now, in your statement, Mrs. Negga, at paragraphs 40, 41, and 42,

22     you describe a meeting, a September 4 meeting, September 4 1992 meeting

23     with Knin authorities including Goran Hadzic; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And this is referenced in your statement, and if I could direct

Page 7169

 1     your attention to the screen, Mrs. Negga.  Are you able to see it?

 2        A.   Yes, I am.

 3        Q.   If not, we can print a copy upstairs and bring it in to you.  Are

 4     you able to see it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And it's dated -- this document is dated 5 September 1992,

 7     and it is and UNPROFOR Sector East telefax, and subject:  Summary of

 8     meeting with Knin authorities.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   This is from Heather Felsinger to Cedric Thornberry.  Who is

11     Heather Felsinger?

12        A.   She was first my secretary and then later civil affairs officer

13     in Sector East.

14        Q.   Were you present for this meeting?

15        A.   I was.

16        Q.   And directing your attention to the -- the second page.  But

17     before we get there, generally what was the purpose of Heather Felsinger

18     sending this document to Cedric Thornberry?

19        A.   It was for the record of what transpired.

20        Q.   Now, if we could zoom in on the first half.  It describes

21     Mr. Marrack Goulding, Under-Secretary-General for peacekeeping

22     operations, opening the meeting?  Do you recall him being present?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   In the next paragraph it references Mr. Hadzic speaking on behalf

25     the Knin authorities.  Do you recall Mr. Hadzic being present at the

Page 7170

 1     meeting?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And according to this report Mr. Hadzic speaking on behalf of the

 4     Knin authorities said that the main purpose of their attendance at the

 5     meeting today, being the 4th of September, 1992, was hopefully to remove

 6     one step further in ending the war and bringing about peace to the

 7     Serbian people.  Is that what's reflected in that document?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, I'd like to go to the next paragraph that begins "In reply":

10             "In reply, Mr. Goulding thanked Mr. Hadzic for his expression

11     that the United Nations could assist in bringing about an end to the war

12     and that Krajina accepted the Vance Plan.  He stated, however, that such

13     a statement did not reflect the actual situation in Sector East."

14             Do you recall that exchange at the meeting?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   Based on what Mr. Hadzic said, was it -- how did you view the

17     statement and whether it reflected the actual situation in Sector East?

18        A.   I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

19        Q.   Absolutely.  It was Mr. Goulding's view that the expression that

20     Mr. Hadzic had made about the United Nations assisting in bringing an end

21     to the war, and the statement that the Krajina accepted the Vance Plan,

22     Mr. Goulding said that such a statement by Hadzic did not reflect the

23     actual situation in Sector East.  Did you agree with Mr. Goulding or did

24     you disagree with him.

25        A.   I agree with Mr. Goulding.

Page 7171

 1        Q.   And why did you agree with him?

 2        A.   Because there was lawlessness in Sector East, and there was no

 3     discernible advance to any peace or any discussing how a peace would be

 4     achieved.

 5        Q.   I'd like to go further in that paragraph which is about halfway,

 6     and it begins on the right-hand side:

 7             "UNPAs had not been completely demilitarised.  The multipurpose

 8     police brigades and milicija with long weapons continued to parade in the

 9     sector.  These forces knew nothing about police work.  They have no

10     discipline and behave as terrorists, not as soldiers."

11             Did you agree or disagree with that characterisation by

12     Mr. Goulding?

13        A.   I agreed completely.

14        Q.   I'd now like to move to the next page.  One would be -- and focus

15     on the second paragraph.  And this begins "Mr. Kadzic."  In your

16     statement you indicated that that was incorrect.  It should read

17     "Mr. Hadzic"; is that correct?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   "And Mr. Kadzic," Hadzic, "asked how his local authorities could

20     demilitarise the territory when the Serbian people were under constant

21     threat by the Croatians.  He stated that he was ashamed that the

22     Vance Plan was not being implemented."

23             Now, halfway down the page in the same paragraph, the sentence

24     under the number "10.000 Serbs."  If you go down two more lines and

25     that's a sentence that begins, "With respect to ethnic cleansing."  Do

Page 7172

 1     you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   "With respect to ethnic cleansing, he," Mr. Hadzic, "stated that

 4     the Croatians started this practice in Western Slavonia prior to any

 5     practice followed by the Serbs."

 6             And he continues that:

 7             "They organised meetings and ordered all the Serbs to leave the

 8     region.  During the war they killed women and children without mercy.

 9     Such events led to our belief ... we should act 'for an eye and tooth for

10     a tooth.'  At present, we could stop ethnic cleansing and death sentences

11     could be exercised against those who transgressed."

12             Do you recall that from the meeting?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Now, according to this in the next paragraph Mr. Goulding replied

15     and he reiterated his belief that ethnic cleansing continued to be

16     practiced and that such cases were well documented by UNPROFOR CIVPOL:

17             "He noted the return of 10.000 Serbs to Western Slavonia could

18     under no circumstances precede the return of the refugees from Croatia to

19     Serbia to their homes."

20             Do you recall that exchange?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Now, this is part of the 92 ter package but at this

23     time the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 5241.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I must admit I do not really understand what you

25     are asking, Ms. Biersay.  It's part of the package?

Page 7173

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, it is part of the package.  I know it's

 2     been -- the practice has gone both ways.  Sometimes we defer it to be

 3     given a number with all the others, and sometimes we admit them if the

 4     Prosecution deals with it in the courtroom.  And I was proposing to --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If it's part of the package it will be

 6     admitted --

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  In that manner.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- in the package in that manner, yes.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you.  Now if I could please have displayed

10     65 ter number 6463.  Which is tab 152.

11        Q.   And I see that you have this in your folder, Mrs. Negga.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

14        A.   Yes, it's the handwritten notes that I took during the meeting.

15        Q.   And could we please go to the next page.  And is this also part

16     of the same notes about the meeting on the 4th September 1992?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And if we could go to the next page, please.  And this is a

19     continuation?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could we now go to the very last page, please.  I don't know if

22     it's possible to rotate.

23             This is entitled:  "Meeting with Knin authority."  What is this

24     that we're looking at?

25        A.   It's a chart of the seating arrangement for the meeting.

Page 7174

 1        Q.   And these are the attendees who were actually at the meeting?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we would tender 65 ter

 4     number 6463.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2403, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock, and I'm

 9     happy to continue, but I'm moving to another document and thought perhaps

10     this would be a good time.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed, Ms. Biersay.  Thank you very much.

12             Mrs. Negga, this is the time for the Trial Chamber's second

13     break.  We'll take 30 minutes and come back at 12.45.  The Court Usher

14     will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, while we have a minute, I would like

21     to make -- renew or modify my previous application and that is to request

22     that any of the associated exhibits with this witness's statement be

23     translated into B/C/S.  I'm not requesting that it be a condition of

24     admission.  I'm simply asking that that be required.  And I realise that

25     perhaps written submissions will be required, but maybe not, so I thought

Page 7175

 1     I would just put it on the record and see if we could save time.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is there a position already?

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Defence is free to request that of CLSS.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, would that be the course of action

 5     that can be taken?

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Happy to do it that way.  We'll make the request,

 7     and if there's a large back-log, we'll come back to the Chamber on this

 8     issue.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Now, Mrs. Negga, hopefully opened in front of you is tab 115,

14     which is for our record 65 ter number 5234.  Do you have something marked

15     as tab 115?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Very good.  And it's dated 2 September 1992.  And if we could

18     please have that displayed on the screen.

19             And while that is appearing on the screen, Mrs. Negga, I'd like

20     to make reference to paragraph 38 of your statement, which reads:

21             "I recall one episode that showed the level of control RSK

22     authorities had on the ground.  One day I was stopped on the way to

23     Osijek by the RSK Special Police patrolling the no man's land, a mined

24     area between Erdut and Osijek.  They demand our papers.  I insisted that

25     I was with the UN and I refused to provide the requested papers.  Several

Page 7176

 1     hours passed, and eventually General Kromchenkov, head of the Russian

 2     battalion" -- shall we take a little pause, Mrs. Negga?

 3        A.   No.  That's all right.  I can continue.

 4        Q.   Okay:

 5             "Kromchenkov, the head of the Russian battalion of UNPROFOR

 6     called Milan Milanovic who called off these border police."

 7             And this is in your statement.  And it is in that regard I'd like

 8     to look at this document, and, first of all, it is from you; is that

 9     correct?  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, it is.

11        Q.   And to Yolanda Auger, do I pronounce that correctly?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now I'd like to move to move to the next page.  And at the bottom

14     again there is the name L.W. Moore.  That's the same person we discussed

15     earlier; correct?

16        A.   It is.

17        Q.   Now, this document refers to the missing persons from

18     Sector East, and specifically it -- you received information that there

19     were perhaps prisoner camps in the area; is that correct?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   Now, regarding that, if you look at the second paragraph from the

22     bottom it begins "This office," and it reads:

23             "This office cannot dispute that there were prisoner camps in

24     this area either during or after the war.  We cannot even state for

25     certain that no camps exist now.  There are still several sites

Page 7177

 1     controlled by paramilitary or Special Police groups within the UNPA where

 2     neither CIVPOL or UNMO have access."

 3             Was that consistent with the Vance Plan that neither CIVPOL nor

 4     UNMO would have access to sites on -- sites in Sector East?

 5        A.   It was not.

 6        Q.   And you've had an opportunity to review this entire document

 7     previously; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And it's accurate as far as the information you received?

10        A.   It is.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time we'd tender into evidence 65 ter

12     number 5234.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and witness make pauses

14     between questions and answers.  Thank you.

15             MS. BIERSAY:

16        Q.   Did you hear that, Mrs. Negga?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The document is marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2404, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Now, if we could please have displayed 65 ter

22     number 5210.

23        Q.   And, Mrs. Negga, this should be tab 108.  Do you have that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Excellent.  It's dated 17 July 1992.  Now, this relates to

Page 7178

 1     paragraphs 81 to 82 of your statement where you discussed perpetrators,

 2     and paragraph 30, where perpetrators threatened a Croatian man that if he

 3     did not leave Dalj he would be killed the next day.  So I'd like to now

 4     turn your attention to this document, and it is from Kjell Johansen to

 5     Cedric Thornberry; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Now, the second sentence reads:

 8             "This report gives the background for the action that has taken

 9     place either by CAC, Mrs. Negga, Sector East, or myself."

10             And the person writing this report is Mr. Hansen; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Mr. Johansen, yes.

13        Q.   Johansen.  Thank you.  Now, do you recall this incident described

14     in the report regarding Doko Briga?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In the fourth paragraph there is a discussion about the

17     description of the meeting opening.  Johansen describes giving a short

18     presentation about observation, and that he visited the oldest of two

19     Croatian men in his house on 8 July 1992.  And he was advised in the

20     presence of Gerard Sexton and Sergeant Larry Moore that the previous

21     night this Croatian man was visited by Doko Briga in his home and beaten

22     severely.  And he writes:

23             "The man was lying in his bed with great pain, showed me his

24     bleeding feet, legs and back.  He could hardly move."

25             And then the next line it describes that the man had known

Page 7179

 1     Doko Briga for years.  Is that consistent with the information that you

 2     had at the time?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Now, this goes on to describe in that last paragraph that the

 5     chief of police made a long statement and said that there was no legal

 6     cause to force and arrest Doko Briga because this was a quarrel.  Do you

 7     recall him telling you that at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And according to this report, you replied, "If you are applying

10     such laws, your laws are barbaric."  Did you make that comment?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And why did you make that comment?

13        A.   Because when you looked at the man, how badly he was beaten, you

14     know, you couldn't help but wonder why, and ordinary fights between

15     people were not that bad.

16        Q.   And you previously reviewed this document.  Does it accurately

17     reflect the information regarding the meeting and information that you

18     had at the time?

19        A.   It is.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter

21     number 5210.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2405.

24             MS. BIERSAY:

25        Q.   Mrs. Negga, do you have marked in your binder 109?

Page 7180

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, in paragraph 37 of your statement, you state:

 3             "I believe that the refusal of the local police to investigate or

 4     prevent crimes against non-Serbs came as a policy directly from the RSK

 5     government.  In fact, shortly after arriving in the sector, I noted that

 6     the local police were either participants in these beatings and

 7     expulsions or stood idly by while these crimes occurred."

 8             And I'd like to direct your attention to 65 ter number 5214,

 9     which is tab 109, and it's dated 22 July 1992.  And looking at the first

10     page of that document.  It's from Mohamed Abdul Aziz, civil affairs

11     officers Beli Manastir, to Cedric Thornberry.  Who was Mr. Abdul Aziz?

12        A.   He was also an officer in UNPROFOR, and when I travelled, he

13     replaced me as the acting civil affairs administrator in Erdut, or he was

14     stationed in Beli Manastir.

15        Q.   And I note that there's a CC at the bottom of this document, CC

16     Blandina Negga?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And are you familiar with the contents of this report?

19        A.   I am.

20        Q.   It is a long handwritten report, and I'd just like to focus on a

21     few aspects of it.  And this will be the last document that I discuss

22     with you.

23             If I could direct your attention to the third page.  Number 3.

24     And if we can -- it we could try to enlarge it.  And it's up to you,

25     Mrs. Negga, if you find it more useful to look at the screen or the

Page 7181

 1     paper, but I'd like to -- the sixth line down towards the right it

 2     starts, "Fugitives from justice."  Do you see those words?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And it reads:

 5             "Fugitives from justice are perceived by some of the local

 6     leaders and military and police commanders as heroes.  Serious criminals

 7     are being released from prison a few days after their arrest.  Even at

 8     times when the local police does its work professionally, the result of

 9     their efforts is frustrated by irresponsible decisions of the Judges who

10     act under the constant pressure of the political leaders who

11     interfere [sic] in releasing terrorists."

12             How does that compare with your experience and the information

13     that you had in Sector East during your tenure?

14        A.   That is exactly what happened.  He described the situation

15     clearly.

16        Q.   Now, in 4 he continues on and he discusses some things you've

17     already discussed, so I won't go over that.  Briefly, he references that

18     all individuals and families who collaborated with the enemy and so forth

19     are not permitted inside of Baranja.

20             What I'd like to do is to skip to the point 5 that's there.  And

21     the first sentence reads:

22              "The process of ethnic cleansing is not only conducted by way of

23     terrorising the population and use of threats but also by using economic

24     pressure."

25             Is that statement accurate?

Page 7182

 1        A.   It is.

 2        Q.   And could you briefly describe to the Trial Chamber what economic

 3     pressure was put on non-Serbs?

 4        A.   Non-Serbs were dismissed from jobs that they had held for years,

 5     some over 20 years, and they were just laid off, and they had no other

 6     means of existing.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we would tender 65 ter 5214.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before that, Ms. Biersay, in the line just

 9     before 4.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You read the verb in that line as "interfere."

12     Is that what it says?

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Is it --

14        Q.   Mrs. Negga, how do you read that word?

15        A.   It says "who intervene."

16        Q.   "Intervene in releasing terrorists."

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2406, Your Honours.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, Your Honours, this concludes the

20     Prosecution's direct.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Cross-examination, Mr. Gosnell.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Sorry for the

23     delay.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Negga.  Am I correct in addressing you as

Page 7183

 1     Mrs. Negga or is it Ms. Negga?

 2        A.   "Missus" would be preferable.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that.  My name is Christopher Gosnell, and I

 4     represent Mr. Hadzic, and I'll be asking you a few questions today and

 5     tomorrow.  If anything I do ask you isn't clear, please feel free to ask

 6     me to elaborate and I'll try to my best.  Do you understand?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   During the 14 months that you were in Sector East, which I

 9     understand was approximately between June 1992 and August 1993, do I

10     understand correctly that you met Mr. Hadzic once?

11        A.   I recall that meeting vividly.

12        Q.   That was the only face-to-face meeting you had with him; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   As I recall.

15        Q.   And that meeting that you attended was also attended by

16     Under-Secretary-General Marrack Goulding and the civil affairs chief

17     Cedric Thornberry for UNPROFOR; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And were the principal interlocutors, the people who were

20     speaking to one another at the meeting, Mr. Goulding on the one side and

21     then various ministers on the RSK side?

22        A.   It was mainly Mr. Hadzic, as I recall.

23        Q.   You don't recall Mr. Martic --

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   -- addressing the meeting?

Page 7184

 1        A.   Yes, he did.  According to my notes he did address the meeting.

 2        Q.   Would it be fair to say that meetings with Mr. Hadzic as

 3     president of the RSK, to use an expression, would have been above your

 4     pay grade?  What I mean to say by that is that you would not have

 5     one-to-one meeting with Mr. Hadzic as --

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   -- civil affairs co-ordinator for Sector East.  Meetings with

 8     Mr. Hadzic would be carried out either by Mr. Goulding or Mr. Thornberry.

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   You testified earlier about some notes that were prepared by

11     Ms. Felsinger, I believe, and in those notes there's an indication that

12     Mr. Hadzic used the expression:  An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

13     Can you please tell us what was the context of that particular statement,

14     and what precisely did you understand him to be saying?

15        A.   I understand that whatever the Croatians did against the Serbs

16     would be met with similar fashion.  You know, a eye for an eye, a tooth

17     for a tooth.  And those were words that were telling, because in a

18     meeting when you hear those words you perk up when you hear them, you

19     know.

20        Q.   These for you that would be a noteworthy declaration, wouldn't

21     it, by a president of the RSK?

22        A.   Noteworthy in what respect?

23        Q.   Important.

24        A.   Important, yeah.

25        Q.   Did you understand that he was advocating that position, or did

Page 7185

 1     you understand that he was describing what was occurring on the ground?

 2        A.   The latter.  I got the impression he was saying that whatever

 3     they did, we will retaliate.

 4        Q.   I'm not quite sure your answer is entirely clear.  Let me try to

 5     pose it again.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour.  The -- the answer was very

 7     clear.  It may not be one which counsel likes, but it's very clear.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is in my understanding a little confusion

 9     in there, Ms. Biersay.  I'll overrule the objection.

10             MR. GOSNELL:

11        Q.   Let's go back to your answer.  You said the latter, and the

12     latter concerned events as they were occurring on the ground.  Was that

13     what you intended to say when you said the latter?

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think, Mr. Gosnell, it would be fair to the

15     witness to repeat the question as you put the question to the witness.

16     Now that her attention is gone to the latter and the former, I think we

17     will get a precise answer.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Certainly, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mrs. Negga, let me try again putting the question.  The question

20     that I asked was:  Did you understand that he was advocating that

21     position, or did you understand that he was describing what was occurring

22     on the ground?

23        A.   I'd say neither.  I got the impression that he's saying, Whatever

24     they do, we will retaliate.

25        Q.   Does that mean you're suggesting he was advocating an eye for an

Page 7186

 1     eye and a tooth for a tooth?

 2        A.   Yeah.  If he says, If you do this, then we will follow through,

 3     and we will reply in kind.  So if you think that is advocating, then I

 4     think it's up to you, but this is what I understood, Should you do this,

 5     we will retaliate.

 6        Q.   To my mind there is a distinction, a possible distinction,

 7     between advocating as a matter of RSK policy on the one side and

 8     describing, on the other hand, what is occurring.  What I'm asking --

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, I think that the question is asked

10     and answered now.  Don't you think so?

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I -- there has been an answer in some way,

12     but I believe I could explore it further without being repetitive,

13     because I'm not sure that all the dimensions of the question or the

14     answer have been explored and it is an important issue, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Ms. Biersay, you want to intervene?

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  The witness has been very clear

17     about it, and it is asked and answered, and I think I count at least --

18     it's been asked and answered at least three times according to my count,

19     and I believe it's been answered and Defence counsel should be asked

20     to -- to move on.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'll give you one more -- one last chance,

22     Mr. Gosnell.

23             MR. GOSNELL:

24        Q.   Was he using this -- was he using that expression to explain to

25     Mr. Goulding what he believed was occurring, not as a matter of

Page 7187

 1     government policy but what bandits, extremists, uncontrolled elements,

 2     were doing in Sector East?

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay?

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, it's exactly a repeat of the

 5     questions with a new tinge to it in an effort to, I think, have the

 6     witness modify her previous answer that she's given three times.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection sustained.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 06463, please, which was a document

 9     used by the Prosecution, and the tab number is --

10             MS. BIERSAY:  If I could assist --

11             MR. GOSNELL:  -- 152.  And it might be best to have the

12     typewritten version.

13        Q.   Do I understand correctly, Mrs. Negga, that you reviewed these

14     handwritten notes, and you attempted to transcribe in typewritten form

15     what you had written in your handwritten notes?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And if we go down there to the penultimate paragraph on page 1,

18     you describe an intervention by Mr. Hadzic, and there's that section

19     beginning:

20             "In the manner -- matter of ethnic cleansing, many mistakes were

21     made starting in Western Slavonia by officials of the Croatian

22     government.  According to information, 170 villages were affected.  He

23     recalled the events of World War II.  He boasted that Krajina was

24     stronger than Croatia, which was a death sentence for the

25     European Community."

Page 7188

 1             Now, there's no mention in your notes of Mr. Hadzic having

 2     declared that it was RSK policy to exchange an eye for an eye and a tooth

 3     for a tooth.  Is there some reason why that wasn't included?

 4        A.   There's no reason that I can remember after 20 years, but I heard

 5     those words, and to me I was just making a summary of what was said.  I

 6     wasn't going into any great detail word by word.

 7        Q.   That wasn't a shocking declaration to hear, that it was a matter

 8     of RSK policy to take revenge on a mass scale --

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  After what had happened in Western Slavonia?

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection.  That's not what it stated, and this is

12     a proposition that's being put by Mr. Gosnell and his reading of it and

13     interpretation.  So I believe that the actual phrase should be used in

14     the question to the witness.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  I am putting a proposition, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Was there a declaration that it was a matter of

17     RSK policy to take revenge?

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I --

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's what you're saying.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  I thought that -- well, I thought at the end of the

21     questions I had previously asked that that was the ultimate conclusion,

22     unless I've badly misunderstood.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  The point, if I may, is that this statement that

24     Mr. Gosnell -- or proposition or whatever he would like to call it, the

25     fact that that proposition is not in her notes makes sense because that

Page 7189

 1     was never said, and she's explained that she summarised the information,

 2     but she -- there's no information anywhere that this specific proposition

 3     was uttered at the meeting.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, if the Prosecution will stipulate to that,

 5     I'll move on.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Gosnell, I confess that I share the trouble

 7     alluded to by the President about the way that you phrase -- that you

 8     phrase the question.  It seems that it is -- what the witness is being

 9     asked to take on board, as it were, is more than she herself would have

10     spoken to in the notes to which she referred, so to that extent the

11     question strikes me as being somewhat unfair.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Perhaps I should break it down and proceed in steps

13     to make it fair and more --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's see where that will lead us, Mr. Gosnell.

15     Okay.

16             MR. GOSNELL:

17        Q.   Well, let me ask it this way:  Did Mr. Goulding respond to this

18     declaration?

19        A.   I'd have to read -- I'd have to read Mr. Goulding's response as

20     we summarised them, but I don't recall Mr. Goulding using "Eye for eye,

21     tooth for tooth" in his response.

22        Q.   No, I wasn't suggesting that.  I was just asking you whether you

23     could recall what Mr. Goulding's response was, if any, to the use of

24     those particular words.

25        A.   As I said, I don't recall him using those particular words.

Page 7190

 1        Q.   When you say "him," are you referring --

 2        A.   Mr. Goulding.

 3        Q.   And regardless of whether he used those words or other words, can

 4     you recall whether he responded in any way to those words having been

 5     used?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   As you sit here can you recall what Mr. Goulding said during the

 8     meeting?  Without having regard to your notes.

 9        A.   Sir, it's over 20 years, huh, that I'm being asked to relive a

10     horrific period of my life, huh.  I'm suffering from PTSD, and you're

11     asking me to recall word-for-word what somebody said when it's clearly

12     stated in all the reports I wrote which were almost simultaneously

13     reported as the incidents occurred?  That is not fair.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Negga, I think that you misunderstood

15     Mr. Gosnell's question.

16             THE WITNESS:  Please.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  What he's asking you is whether you do recall the

18     words or not.  If you don't recall the words, nobody will blame you for

19     that.  It's just to know whether it is still in your memory right now or

20     not.

21             THE WITNESS:  With all due respect, sir, I have replied to that

22     question over and over again.  He asked me did Mr. Goulding, the

23     Under-Secretary-General, reply to the tooth for tooth or eye for eye, and

24     I said I don't recall him saying that.  What more can I say?  I answered

25     his question.

Page 7191

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So do we take it from that that you don't recall

 2     anymore what Mr. Goulding said at that moment, not particularly in reply

 3     to the tooth for a tooth phrase but in general?

 4             THE WITNESS:  No, no, not at all.  Mr. Goulding was refuting that

 5     the situation had advanced any -- much, because the situation in the

 6     sector had not improved, and Mr. Goulding went through a list of what was

 7     wrong and what hadn't progressed.  I recall that clearly.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:

10        Q.   I take it Mr. --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   I take it that Mr. Hadzic was speaking in Serbo-Croat?

14        A.   Yeah, of course.

15        Q.   You don't speak Serbo-Croat?

16        A.   No, I don't.

17        Q.   The meeting was being interpreted by someone.

18        A.   It was.

19        Q.   Do you have any sense of the quality of the interpretation?

20        A.   We -- we had the best interpreters that were available, and that

21     is my sense, that they were doing a good job.

22        Q.   I simply ask you that because not everyone agrees that all UN

23     interpreters were of the utmost highest quality, and I simply wanted to

24     ask you as a general matter whether there was anything in the manner of

25     the interpretation that would cause you to doubt whether it was perfect

Page 7192

 1     and precise.

 2        A.   There wasn't that I recall, and there were no objections made at

 3     the time, so ...

 4        Q.   And you yourself were not speaking during this meeting; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you attempt to make your notes that you prepared at the time

 8     as full and complete a record of the meeting as possible?

 9        A.   I always do.

10        Q.   And were you making those notes at the time, during the meeting,

11     or did you make them afterwards?

12        A.   Do you have a copy of the notes?

13        Q.   Indeed.

14        A.   Well, clearly they were made simultaneously.

15        Q.   If we could go now to paragraph 53 of your statement.  Here you

16     say:

17             "In early 1993, the RSK authorities communicated with the

18     UN Secretary-General.  I was sent a copy of the letter that Hadzic had

19     written to the Secretary-General in which he emphasised the RSK's fears

20     of an imminent Croatian attack.  I thought this fear was unjustified

21     because the Croatians were pushing me to arrange the return of the

22     displaced Croats.  I think it was very unlikely that the Croatians would

23     have attacked the area to which they were trying to return displaced

24     Croatians.  It was Hadzic's form of propaganda."

25             Now, I'd like to look at the letter that you're referring to in

Page 7193

 1     your footnote, and it's Prosecution tab 61, 05322.  And am I correct,

 2     Mrs. Negga, that when you prepared this statement you were -- you had the

 3     documents to hand that you put in your footnotes?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  The 65 ter number again is 05322.

 6        Q.   Is this indeed the letter that you meant to refer to as -- in

 7     that footnote?

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm not sure whether a hard copy might be

 9     available.  I thank my colleague for that courtesy.

10        Q.   Now, there it says at the outset of this letter -- I'm sorry.

11     Let me -- let me give you a chance to answer my question.  Was this the

12     document you were referring to?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   At the outset it says:

15             "The Republic Serbian Krajina which has been established on the

16     territories of former Yugoslavia, by the wish of their own people, is

17     exposed to the permanent aggression of the armed forces of the

18     Republic of Croatia from 21 January 1993 until this time."

19             Now, if we go to page 2:

20             "At this moment we are exposed to the big number of refugees who

21     are coming from the Benkovac area and numbering close to 10.000."

22             Now, seeing that name Benkovac, does that help you recall what

23     events may have been occurring at around this date?

24        A.   I seem to be missing a page, so I don't quite follow you.

25        Q.   Perhaps we could zoom in.  It should be page 2.  Yes, we're

Page 7194

 1     there.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You don't have page 2 in your papers?

 3             THE WITNESS:  I don't, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You do not.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:

 6        Q.   Mrs. Negga, is that large enough?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   "At this moment we are exposed to the big number of refugees who

 9     are coming from Benkovac area and numbering close to 10.000."

10             Does that remind you of what events may have been ongoing at

11     around this date?  And the date of this letter is 30th of January, 1993.

12        A.   It says here that it was in western -- it was in Sector West,

13     which adjoined Sector East.

14        Q.   I'm not there yet.  I'm just above that, Mrs. Negga.  Do you see

15     where -- can you see the name "Benkovac area"?

16        A.   Mm-hmm.  Yes, I see that.

17        Q.   Does that name remind you as to whether there were any very

18     significant events ongoing at around this date?

19        A.   No, it doesn't.

20        Q.   Can you remember as whether part of your functions in Sector East

21     were you kept abreast of events in other sectors, security events in

22     particular?

23        A.   Periodically we received reports on each sector from the military

24     command in Zagreb.

25        Q.   And then now let's go to the next paragraph which you, I think,

Page 7195

 1     already read.  It says:

 2             "Unfortunately, according to our knowledge, military forces of

 3     the Republic of Croatia are preparing themselves for further aggressive

 4     movements towards the territories of Western Slavonia (Sector West) which

 5     is planning in the next few days."

 6             Now, is that what you say is propaganda, Mr. Hadzic's propaganda?

 7        A.   I read that the threat was in Sector East, you know.  I did not

 8     read Sector West threat.

 9        Q.   All I'm trying to understand is you are saying that Mr. Hadzic,

10     in this letter, is engaging in propaganda, and I'm just trying to

11     understand why you believe he was engaging in propaganda.  On what basis

12     do you say that?

13        A.   The Croats -- the Croats were urging Sector East to arrange for

14     the return of the refugees, and to me, to suggest that they are -- they

15     will be attacking the Serbs at the same time that they're waiting for the

16     return of the refugees seemed to me somewhat incongruous, and that is why

17     I used the term "propaganda."

18        Q.   So you deemed the threat of an attack to be low or insignificant

19     because the Croats, the Croatian side, wished to repopulate those areas?

20        A.   Yes.  In Sector East, yes.

21        Q.   And you see here that Mr. Hadzic is talking about the threat of

22     an attack not on Sector East but in Sector West?

23        A.   Yeah, I see that now.

24        Q.   Having seen that, would you retract that -- your statement that

25     he is engaging in propaganda in this letter?

Page 7196

 1        A.   Insofar as it doesn't apply to Sector East, yes.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 03170, please.

 3        Q.   Perhaps before we lose this document I could just ask you one

 4     more question while it's nicely on the screen in front of us.

 5             It says further down in the last paragraph:

 6             "It is, unfortunately, obvious that we are forced to protect our

 7     people and territories by all military powers unless the Croatian

 8     aggression is not stopped."

 9             And just above that he says:

10             "...  as we have done several times in the past, we kindly ask

11     you," and this letter is addressed to the president of the

12     Security Council, "again to take necessary measures for preventions."

13             Would you agree that what appears to be expressed here is a

14     sincere, leaving aside whether it's legitimate, a sincere concern about

15     the danger of a Croatian attack at this time?

16        A.   He's pleading for help, you know.

17        Q.   He's pleading for help, and would you also agree he's also saying

18     that, Unless we get that help, we have to protect ourselves?

19        A.   Well, he says that in this letter.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Negga.  Can we now please go to 03170.  It's a

21     Defence tab.  This is from Satish Nambiar to Goulding, dated the

22     30th of January, 1993.  So this, Mrs. Negga, is precisely the same day as

23     the letter we were just looking at, 30th of January, 1993.  And it says

24     there at point 1:

25             "We have kept headquarters fully informed of developments in the

Page 7197

 1     area since 22 January 1993 when the Croatian government resorted to

 2     unilateral use of force."

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we try to blow up the English a little bit?

 4        Q.   "Since then," and this is again at paragraph 1, Mrs. Negga,

 5     "since then the military situation that is been relatively --" there's a

 6     sentence I missed.

 7             "Since then, despite various calls for a cessation of operations,

 8     and assurances received, operations have continued until late afternoon

 9     28 January 1993 when the Peruca dam was retaken by the Croatian Army.

10     Since then, the military situation has been relatively quiet - I would

11     say ominously so."

12             Now, reading that, does that remind you that at the end of

13     January there was a major Croatian offensive in Sector South, an

14     offensive into the protected area of Sector South?

15        A.   I would have learnt of that afterwards, you know.

16        Q.   Well, it does say here that the attack started on the 22nd.  Do

17     you think by the 30th you -- well, let me ask you.  Do you remember

18     anything at all during the time, after the time?  Can you remember that

19     there was a major offensive in Sector South --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- in January 1993?

22        A.   It was on the radio.

23        Q.   If we could please go to the last page of this document.

24             This is a press report which apparently is attached to Mr. --

25     General Nambiar's report from Reuters, dated the 30th of January, again

Page 7198

 1     the same day as Mr. Hadzic's letter.  It says:

 2             "Croatian President Franjo Tudjman said in an interview published

 3     on Saturday his troops were ready to continue attacking Serb forces even

 4     if caused the collapse of the Geneva peace talks.  He said he would

 5     withdraw the mandate of UN peacekeeping troops in Eastern Slavonia in

 6     March unless UN soldiers disarmed Serb units there and repatriate

 7     Croatian refugees.  Then we will act on our own.  Croatia will always

 8     take steps to protect its entire territory.  The Serbs must accept defeat

 9     or suffer more defeats."

10             And then down at the bottom it says:

11             "We are only liberating our own country."

12             Now did you understand or know at the time that Croatia's

13     position was that, if necessary, it would retake the protected areas by

14     force?

15        A.   With my dealings with the Croatian officials, they were under the

16     impression that UNPROFOR was there to return the territory to them, the

17     occupied areas to them, and their threats were mainly centred on the

18     return of the refugees to the occupied areas.  But ...

19        Q.   Was that impression correct as far as you were concerned?

20        A.   What --

21        Q.   Was that part of the Vance Peace Plan that those territories

22     would be returned to Croatia?

23        A.   No, it wasn't.

24        Q.   And isn't it right that the whole idea of the Vance Plan is that

25     the UN protected areas, the fate, the ultimate fate, would be determined

Page 7199

 1     through further negotiations?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3        Q.   Now I'd like to turn to paragraph 48 of your statement.  And here

 4     you say -- I'm not sure whether you have it in front of you, Mrs. Negga.

 5     Your statement, paragraph --

 6        A.   I have it.

 7        Q.   Paragraph 48 says -- you describe your first encounter with the

 8     local RSK authorities on 10 June 1992, and then you say:

 9              "Furthermore, these RSK authorities said clearly that they would

10     not allow non-Serb returnees back into the sector."

11             And then you refer to two documents down there in the footnote,

12     and I would like to turn to those two documents.  Could we start by

13     looking at Prosecution tab 12, 05182.  This is Prosecution tab 12.  I'm

14     not sure whether Mrs. Negga has it with her in the binder.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  It's not included in the selected items.  I do have

16     a copy, and I'd just remind Mrs. Negga that it's a double-sided copy.  So

17     perhaps it can be helpful.

18             MR. GOSNELL:

19        Q.   Now, this is one of the two documents cited in your footnote.  If

20     we go to page 2, you say the atmosphere and the meeting was presided over

21     by Milan Ilic, and it was attended by Dr. Milorad Visic, president of the

22     Executive Board, and Milan Milanovic, deputy minister of defence of the

23     so-called Republic of Krajina:

24             "The atmosphere was marked by cordiality and expression of

25     co-operation were repeatedly stressed."

Page 7200

 1             Do you remember that that was indeed the atmosphere of the

 2     meeting, that it was cordial and there were repeated expressions of

 3     co-operation?

 4        A.   Yes.  It was my first meeting, and I remember it.

 5        Q.   If we could turn over to the next page, it says:

 6             "At both meetings questions concerning the disarming of the

 7     police, military, and civilians were raised.  Replies were met with

 8     snickering and general skepticism."

 9             Now, we'll get to the snickering and the skepticism, but I first

10     of all want to focus on the three groups that you identify there as

11     having been armed, and you mention the police and you mention the

12     military.  Can I first ask you who do you mean when you refer to the

13     military here?

14        A.   There was the police, and then above the police you had another

15     force, more along the line of territorial force, and that, I think, was

16     my description of the military.

17        Q.   And in addition to police and military, civilians were armed?

18        A.   Yes.  They had arms all over the place.

19        Q.   You say they were "all over the place."  Do you mean to say that

20     it was your observation that a great many civilians had weapons?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And by weapons do you mean long-armed, long-barrelled weapons,

23     such as rifles?

24        A.   Well, the rifles were mostly in the possession of the military

25     and the groups, you know, the paramilitary groups.  They had APCs and

Page 7201

 1     other types of weapons.

 2        Q.   Did civilians also have hunting rifles, for example, Thompsons,

 3     Kalashnikovs?  Did you know whether those weapons were in the civilian

 4     population?

 5        A.   I recall having read in one or two of the CIVPOL reports that

 6     there were such weapons, but I did not see them personally.

 7        Q.   And what were the people attending snickering and skeptical

 8     about?

 9        A.   We were there to implement the Vance Plan, which was to disarm

10     the population, demilitarise the forces, and have arms under a

11     double-lock system, and then bring the opposing forces to the table to

12     negotiate how they will proceed.  And I -- I suppose many did not agree

13     that they should be disarmed, so there was general snickering.

14        Q.   And it says here:

15             "Another question asked in Tenja concerned UNPROFOR's role in the

16     return of refugees.  There was some degree of hostility in the stance of

17     the questioner.  The message was quite that those who had left will not

18     be allowed to return."

19             Did you understand that whoever -- well, first of all, do you

20     know who said that?  Can you remember whether -- distinguish between the

21     speakers at this meeting?  Which one may have expressed that view?

22        A.   I can't recall it off the top of my head.  If it's in my notes

23     it's what it was, but I cannot tell you from the top of my head now.

24        Q.   And can you remember -- again, I know it's been a very, very long

25     time, Mrs. Negga, and I mean no offence by asking these questions, I

Page 7202

 1     simply want to know what you can remember.  Can you recall whether they

 2     said that these individuals, whoever had left, could never come back --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- or --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Or was it that they were saying that for as long as there was no

 7     settlement of the negotiation process, that they wouldn't be allowed to

 8     return?

 9        A.   I got the impression that they would never be allowed to return.

10     There was never an additional condition added about the negotiation

11     process.  It was clear these people will not be allowed to return.

12        Q.   And by "these people," did they convey that that meant every

13     person of Croat ethnicity or non-Serb ethnicity, or were they referring

14     to a subset of that group; for example, people who had actually

15     participated in hostilities?  Was any such distinction drawn at that

16     meeting?

17        A.   No, none was drawn.

18        Q.   If they were so categorical in saying that people of non-Serb

19     ethnicity could never return, as you say, then can you tell us why they

20     were asking questions about UNPROFOR's role in the return of refugees -

21     it's noted there - and why were questions asked to UNHCR about the method

22     it proposed to return individuals?

23        A.   UNHCR certified whether an area was ripe for the return of

24     refugees, whether there was sufficient order and calm, and whether these

25     refugees could be resettled.  In other words, UNHCR was the lead agency

Page 7203

 1     in the return of refugees.

 2        Q.   And the people you were speaking to at this meeting were

 3     inquiring, were they not, about UNHCR's conditions for return of

 4     non-Serbs; correct?

 5        A.   I -- could you rephrase -- could you repeat that question again?

 6        Q.   Sure.  I'm sorry if it wasn't clear.  It's just that the last

 7     sentence of this paragraphs suggests to me, and I may be wrong and I'm

 8     seeking your assistance, that the people on the Serb side, your

 9     interlocutors, were inquiring about the conditions on which -- or the

10     methods by which people would be returned; is that correct?

11        A.   No, they were not interested in the return at all.  So why would

12     they be interested in the method?

13        Q.   Well, I'm not sure, Mrs. Negga, but -- but that is what's

14     mentioned there in the last sentence.

15        A.   What sentence is that?

16        Q.   Where it says -- and it's actually really both sentences.  The

17     first sentence begins, "Another question concerned UNPROFOR's role," and

18     then the last sentence, "In the return of refugees," and then the last

19     sentence says, "UNHCR was questioned as to the method it proposed to

20     return these people."

21             MS. BIERSAY:  May I ask a question.  I see Mrs. Negga trying find

22     the page number.  Perhaps that may be helpful if she knew which page.

23             MR. GOSNELL:

24        Q.   Perhaps the easiest thing is just to look at the screen,

25     Mrs. Negga.  That paragraph beginning "At both meetings."

Page 7204

 1        A.   Yes.  Well, I think it's all answered in the three sentences.

 2     "The message was quite clear that those who had left will not be allowed

 3     to return."

 4        Q.   Was it also UNPROFOR's position in 1992, given the security

 5     situation that those who had been displaced should not return for the

 6     time being?

 7        A.   Well, UNPROFOR had to abide by UNHCR and ICRC's advice, because

 8     they were the ones who were responsible for the conditions and the return

 9     of the refugees, so we had no say in the matter.  We had to say, you

10     know, is it right?  Can -- is the time right for them to return?

11        Q.   So does that mean -- are you saying that UNHCR advised against

12     returns at this time?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I do see the time.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

16             Mrs. Negga, this is the end of today's hearing.  We will expect

17     you back in the courtroom tomorrow morning at 9.00, when we will finish

18     your testimony.  In the meantime, you're not released as a witness, and

19     that means that you're not allowed to talk to anyone about your

20     testimony, and you're not allowed to talk to any of the parties.

21             The Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

Page 7205

 1                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day

 2                           of July, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.