Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7206

 1                           Thursday, 18 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

11             Could we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

14     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Lisa Biersay, case manager

15     Thomas Laugel, and legal intern Simona Gabriel Onicel.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence

19     of Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell and our legal

20     intern Ms. Kaitlin McKenzie.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  If there's nothing for the

22     moment -- Mr. Gosnell?

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I think the witness can be brought

24     in while I put something on the record with Your Honour's leave.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  The witness may be brought in.

Page 7207

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  I apologise for the Chamber.  There was a dead-line

 2     of yesterday by noon to report back to you about two video-clips that had

 3     been used with Witness GH45, and we did come to an agreement with the

 4     Prosecution on the two clips.  And just for the record, the two clips

 5     that are now tendered are 1D589, which is an extract of 65 ter 5030 and

 6     that's already been marked as D86.  And then 1D590 is an extract of 5033,

 7     which is already marked as D87 and the clips have been provided to the

 8     Registry.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So the new clips are admitted and marked and the

10     two old numbers will be vacated, Madam Registrar?

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer].

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, the new ones will get those numbers.  Okay.

13     Thank you.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mrs. Negga.

16             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  May I remind you that you are still under oath.

18             Mr. Gosnell, please proceed.

19                           WITNESS:  BLANDINA FRANCIS NEGGA [Resumed]

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell: [Continued]

21        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Negga.  How are you?

22        A.   Good morning.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Could I ask the assistance of the court usher.  I

24     would, to facilitate proceedings, ask that the 92 ter statement be

25     distributed to the court officer and the Legal Officer so we can avoid

Page 7208

 1     switching back and forth between the statement and the documents on the

 2     screen.

 3        Q.   Mrs. Negga, by the time you arrived in Sector East, did you know

 4     or did you hear that there were already --

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Excuse me, could I ask that the -- I believe the

 6     witness already has a -- her 92 ter statement.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  So I made three copies for the Judges and one for

 9     the Legal Officer.

10        Q.   Sorry about that, Mrs. Negga.  When you arrived there, did you

11     know or did you learn that there were already tens of thousands, at

12     least, of persons of Serbian ethnicity who had been displaced from

13     Western Slavonia?

14        A.   I only learnt that after I arrived in Belgrade because when I was

15     asked to join the mission, I was destined for Sector North.  And when I

16     got to Belgrade, I was told that that decision had to be changed because

17     my predecessor -- the persons who were previously in Sector East had

18     elected to return to New York and that a presence was needed there

19     urgently and I was it.

20        Q.   And how many displaced persons from Western Slavonia of Serbian

21     ethnicity were you told were in Sector East, approximately?  I understand

22     how long it's been, but in general terms, do you know?

23        A.   At what point are you talking?

24        Q.   I'm talking about upon your arrival.

25        A.   Well, upon my arrival it was about a week or two before it was

Page 7209

 1     certain that I would be in Sector East, so at that point we were not very

 2     much concerned with numbers.  It was only when I attended my first

 3     meeting with the local authorities in Vukovar and later in Beli Manastir

 4     that numbers were being pushed around.

 5        Q.   And they told you that there were already a very large number --

 6        A.   That had been displaced.

 7        Q.   These are not people who had been brought by the authorities.

 8     Weren't these people who had been -- who had fled there out of necessity?

 9        A.   I don't understand your question.

10        Q.   Were these individuals who had fled to Sector East out of - at

11     least as they perceived it - necessity?

12        A.   My understanding was that there were refugees from other parts of

13     the former Yugoslavia that were coming into Sector East.  Is that what

14     you're asking me?  Because the "fleeing" I don't quite understand.

15        Q.   Well, let me come at this from another direction.  I'm right that

16     Western Slavonia is in Croatia; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And in order to get to Sector East from Western Slavonia you have

19     to pass through Bosnia; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And is that the route -- would you know the route that many or

22     most of those displaced persons used to get to Sector East?  Do you know

23     what towns they might have passed through?

24        A.   I was told that that was one of the routes, but they would

25     suddenly disappear overnight.  So one was never quite sure as to the many

Page 7210

 1     routes or the exact route that they took.

 2        Q.   And did you hear that in some cases families were separated such

 3     that the men who had fled from Western Slavonia went to Sector East when

 4     it was -- when there was still a time of armed conflict and women and

 5     children or the elderly sometimes stayed behind in Bosnia or in Serbia

 6     before rejoining their husbands or sons or fathers?

 7        A.   I recall that we were told in the meetings that nightly busloads

 8     of women, children, and men would be brought into the Baranja and later

 9     on into Sector East -- into other parts of Sector East, but as to how

10     they were separated and when they were separated, I couldn't tell you for

11     sure.

12        Q.   The reason I'm asking you these questions is because of what you

13     say at paragraph 66 in your statement.  And for the record, you've also

14     addressed this issue at paragraphs 25, 58, 70, and 108 to 112.

15        A.   Could you repeat those paragraphs?

16        Q.   Let's -- perhaps we could just start on 66 and we'll go to some

17     others if we need to.

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.   You say here:

20             "I reported on 2 July 1992 that there were 17.000 Serb refugees

21     brought to the Baranja from Bosnia.  More were expected.  Throughout this

22     period I reported that Serbs continued to arrive to the area in large

23     numbers."

24        A.   These were figures supplied by my civil affairs officer resident

25     in Beli Manastir.

Page 7211

 1        Q.   Well, let's take a look at one of the documents that you prepared

 2     that appears to echo this.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05197, please.

 4        Q.   Indeed, this is the footnote there at footnote 38.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we go to page 3, please.

 6        Q.   And this is your report to Mr. Thornberry of the 2nd of July,

 7     1992, and there in the first full paragraph - and we can expand to the

 8     page width for the assistance of the witness - it says:

 9             "The co-ordinator of refugees into the Baranja,

10     Ms. Constantonovic reported that so far 17.000 persons had been brought

11     to the Baranja from Bosnia-Herzegovina and that more were expected."

12             Is that what you were?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, I -- the reason I ask -- well, let -- and it says previous

15     to that at the top of the page:

16             "He added that the community was traumatised..." and this is

17     referring, I believe, to the words of Dr. Mutanzic [phoen] who worked at

18     the Baranja medical centre.

19             "He added that the community was traumatised by the war and was

20     experiencing psychological and material stress as a result of the influx

21     of refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina ..."

22             Did they tell you from where precisely in Bosnia these refugees

23     originated?

24        A.   No, what you see is the report that I received from the Baranja.

25        Q.   But you're sure that you were told that these refugees originated

Page 7212

 1     from Bosnia?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Were you told anything about what fighting had led to this

 4     departure?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did they explain to you why Serbs would be fleeing Bosnia,

 7     whereas, based on the information I have, they were able to flee to the

 8     extent they were displaced to the Autonomous Region of Krajina and to the

 9     Republika Srpska, which was within Bosnia?

10        A.   Could you repeat that question again?

11        Q.   Well, my understanding is that to the extent Serbs -- people of

12     Serbian ethnicity in Bosnia were being displaced, they were displaced to

13     other areas of Bosnia, namely the Autonomous Region of Krajina or the

14     Republika Srpska, and that in fact there were no people or almost no

15     people of Serbian ethnicity fleeing from Bosnia anywhere, including the

16     Baranja.

17        A.   But the Baranja was part of Sector East, the occupied territory.

18        Q.   Is it possible that you misunderstood what you were told about

19     the origin of these people who were -- who had come or who were coming to

20     the Baranja?

21        A.   There was no possibility of any misunderstanding because the

22     reports were not given verbally.  They were mostly in writing.  Or when I

23     was actually in the Baranja to attend meetings.  So it wasn't a hearsay

24     situation.  It was a written or a reporting that was actually documented

25     at the time the statement was made.

Page 7213

 1        Q.   Well, I've looked at your reports, including this report, and

 2     here we see information being conveyed about the number and the origin of

 3     these individuals.  And there's no indication of the source of the

 4     information being written down or being documentary.  Indeed, it seems

 5     that the source is oral.  Isn't that right?

 6        A.   Couldn't be.  There was no means of an oral communication between

 7     the Baranja and Erdut.  There were reports that were sent via the

 8     computer or they were sent by a messenger.

 9        Q.   And who was Ms. Constantonovic?

10        A.   As it says, she was the co-ordinator for refugees into the

11     Baranja.

12        Q.   Affiliated with what institution or body?

13        A.   I'm not sure at this point.

14        Q.   Was she part of the UN or --

15        A.   No, she was not.

16        Q.   Was she a local official?

17        A.   I presume so.

18        Q.   So are you saying that she sent you or someone in Sector East HQ

19     a written communication about this?

20        A.   No, she would have sent it to the civil affairs officer in the

21     Baranja, who reported to me.

22        Q.   So you can't say whether that civil affairs officer may have

23     understood what he or she was being told about the origin of these

24     individuals arriving?

25        A.   I don't understand the question.

Page 7214

 1        Q.   Let's have a look at another document.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05190, please.

 3        Q.   This is your report of the 22nd of June, 1992, to Mr. Thornberry.

 4     If we could go to page 4.  Now at the very top of the page there under

 5     "Observations," it says:

 6             "In view of the influx of Serbians into the Sector ..."

 7             Now, let's just stop there.  Are you reporting here - and I don't

 8     know whether you can recall so I'll just first of all ask you whether you

 9     can recall this - are you saying that as of June 1992 there was an

10     ongoing influx of people of Serb ethnicity into Baranja?

11        A.   To my knowledge, yes.  And not only the Baranja.  They came over

12     into areas -- into other towns and -- or villages.  Because throughout

13     the reports, you were -- you would observe where the minorities were

14     asked to have them as guests in the house because there was no available

15     accommodation or they were just put in houses.  So there was a stream of

16     Serbs coming into Sector East.

17        Q.   And down at the bottom of the page, same page that we're on:

18             "At the same time the Serbianisation of the sector

19     continues - especially in the Baranja where busloads of tired-looking

20     older persons, and children are seen to enter via Batina bridge on a

21     regular basis."

22             Now, is that description of older persons and children, isn't

23     that consistent with people re-joining their husbands, their fathers,

24     their sons?

25        A.   Yes, it does appear to be.

Page 7215

 1        Q.   Do you have any estimates at all - and I know that it's been a

 2     very long time - it's just that in your reports and in your 92 ter

 3     statement you don't give precise information about this.  How many Serbs

 4     entered Sector East let's say in the second half of 1992?

 5        A.   We had no means of counting them one by one.  We just noticed

 6     that there was an obvious increase in the number and also from the

 7     complaints we received from minorities, that they were being urged to

 8     leave their houses to the newcomers or to accept them as guests,

 9     indicated that there were clearly newcomers to this sector.

10        Q.   But those complaints could just as easily have arisen, could they

11     not, from harassment or pressure caused by the large number of displaced

12     persons who were already there prior to your arrival?

13        A.   What do you mean by "the large number of displaced persons who

14     were ... there ..."?

15        Q.   Well, let me put my cards completely on the table to try to

16     explain what I'm getting at.

17        A.   Yeah.

18        Q.   My position is that by June 1992 virtually the movement of

19     displaced persons had already occurred and that after June 1992, while

20     it's true that there were some others arriving, the numbers were quite

21     small relative to the movements that occurred earlier.  And that's what

22     I'm getting at, and so now I'm asking you whether the complaints that you

23     received about harassment, wouldn't they be equally consistent with

24     pressure from displaced persons, Serbs, who arrived before June 1992?

25        A.   I don't know about that.

Page 7216

 1        Q.   Now, in paragraph 66, and I'm focusing on this, you say that they

 2     were brought to the Baranja.  Who do you say brought them?

 3        A.   I don't know.  Busloads came, so obviously they were brought, but

 4     as to who brought them I cannot tell you because I don't know.

 5        Q.   Could we look at paragraph 113 of your statement, please.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  And while that's coming up or while we're turning

 7     to that, we could also bring up 01035, please.

 8        Q.   Now, here you refer to a law being passed allowing the

 9     confiscation of non-Serb property on mere allegations that non-Serbs

10     collaborated with the enemy.  Do you remember what the title of that law

11     may have been?

12        A.   No, I don't.  Because the local authorities kept promising to

13     supply us with the laws and they never did.  The reports were mainly

14     received through CIVPOL who had to investigate each case of intimidation

15     or harassment or whatnot and give a reporting on the reasons or the

16     conversations they held with the prosecutor or whatever the local

17     judicial authority consisted of.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Perhaps we could just slightly expand the document

19     on the screen.

20        Q.   And this, Madam, is a law of the Government of the RSK.  It's

21     dated apparently the 21st of April, 1992, and it's called -- well, I must

22     correct myself.  It's not a law.  It's called a decision on the return of

23     refugees.  And Article 1 says that a request must be sent and then

24     Article 2 says that a check must be carried out to verify if the

25     individual was directly or indirectly involved with any enemy unit or

Page 7217

 1     nationalist and fascist party.  Is it possible that this is the provision

 2     that you intended to refer to insofar as this would appear to potentially

 3     exclude individuals from returning who fell within that category?

 4        A.   It is possible, but as I said we had been promised a copy of the

 5     decision and we were never given one.  We merely had to quote what was

 6     told to us by the Serbian prosecutor or his workers.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Now if we could turn the page, please.

 8        Q.   Article 5:

 9             "A person who was authorised to return to the territory of the

10     Republic shall be allowed to have unhindered access to his/her earlier

11     place of residence and have equal rights like all other citizens of the

12     Republic in accordance with the Constitution and the laws of the

13     Republic."

14             Now, do you remember that -- seeing that provision?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Do you remember hearing or seeing about this decision at all?

17        A.   I was told that it existed, but I never saw it in writing.

18        Q.   And this decision makes no distinction at all based on whether or

19     not a person previously left Sector East with or without a declaration

20     saying that they were leaving voluntarily; isn't that right?

21        A.   What is the question?

22        Q.   Well, let me back up and put it a different way.  Yesterday you

23     suggested that the RSK authorities sought to obtain certificates from

24     individuals, Croats or non-Serbs, who wanted to leave Sector East, saying

25     that they were leaving voluntarily.  And as I understood what you were

Page 7218

 1     saying yesterday, you thought that they were doing that in order to

 2     deprive them of the right to return.  Did I understand that correctly?

 3        A.   Yes in part, and also to say that since they were leaving their

 4     property became the property of the Serbian state or the Krajinian state.

 5        Q.   And you say that that depended on the issuance of such a

 6     certificate, in particular if they were leaving voluntarily then there

 7     could be this forfeiture to the state that you're describing?

 8        A.   Yes, if they leave voluntarily there would be a forfeiture, not

 9     could be.

10        Q.   But no mention of this in this decision, is there?

11        A.   As I told you, I haven't seen this decision in writing.  I'm just

12     telling you what happened on the ground.  Once they leave, they had to

13     declare that they were leaving voluntarily.  That being done, their

14     property was confiscated.

15        Q.   Well, was it confiscated or rather was it put at the temporary

16     use of the local authorities?

17        A.   I'm not willing to go into semantics.  If they took the property

18     and placed people in them, the property was taken.

19        Q.   Let's take a look please at 01469.  Now, Mrs. Negga, this is a

20     report from someone named Tomislav Papic and it's dated the 2nd of

21     February, 1993.  And he is the secretary of the secretariat for the civil

22     engineering and urban planning in the Serb district of SBWS.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  And if we can go to page 3.

24        Q.   He's describing the work of a commission for the registering and

25     allocation of houses for accommodation and flats.  If we could just

Page 7219

 1     scroll down.  Now, there at the bottom of the page it says:

 2             "The Commission works on checks relating to cases of moving in

 3     and relocation and they issue the first temporary decisions for all

 4     housing units now occupied."

 5             If we can turn the page.  I won't go through this entire page

 6     with you, Mrs. Negga, chapter and verse, but if you just look at this

 7     page what you'll see is frequent reference to "temporary accommodation"

 8     and "temporarily accommodated."  Do you remember anyone at all from the

 9     local authorities telling you that those displaced persons who had come

10     to Sector East, that they were being temporarily accommodated in houses?

11        A.   I don't recall the use of the word "temporarily."  The saying was

12     that these people were in the sector, housing was -- and there was a

13     shortage of housing, and they had to be either put with minorities to

14     live or they had to be given unoccupied housing.  But there was never any

15     mention of "temporary."

16        Q.   Did Mr. Ilic ever tell you that he expected those who had left,

17     those of non-Serb ethnicity, did he ever tell you that he expected those

18     individuals to return?

19        A.   No, he said that he didn't think they would return because they

20     had either collaborated with the enemy - meaning Croatia - or they had

21     left voluntarily.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05186, please, Prosecution tab 14.  I

23     had thought that 01469 was already an exhibit, but now I am informed that

24     it's not, and therefore I would tender that document.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

Page 7220

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D90, Your Honours.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  The number again is 5186.

 3        Q.   Now, Mrs. Negga, this is a report that was sent to you on the

 4     16th of June, 1992, by Yolanda Auger to you.  It appears to include an

 5     attachment with an article from a Hungarian-language publication.  If we

 6     could turn to page 2.  I won't turn to it, but just for your information

 7     on the last page of this document the Hungarian original appears and it

 8     seems that the speaker is Milan Ilic.  Now, down there, the bottom

 9     paragraph, the questioner seems to say:

10             "It can hardly be said that Baranja is overflowed with tourists."

11             And then it seems that there is an answer:

12             "The refugees are expected to return.  According to Mr. George

13     Latas, only about 3% of the refugees could be accused of some sort of

14     plot against the Serbian authorities.  As far as the others are

15     concerned, they should come to no harm."

16             Did Mr. Ilic -- and I presume that Mr. Ilic would have wanted to

17     impress upon you that he was co-operative and believed in the spirit of

18     the Vance Plan.  He never expressed this sentiment to you?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   But you did receive this?

21        A.   The translation?

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   Yes.  It's a newspaper article.

24        Q.   And did you ever ask Mr. Ilic about this information?

25        A.   No.

Page 7221

 1        Q.   Would you agree with me, Mrs. Negga, that the main reason why

 2     non-Serbs were leaving Sector East was intimidation, terrorisation, acts

 3     of violence against them?

 4        A.   And loss of jobs.

 5        Q.   We'll come to that reason as well, but would you say that the

 6     primary impetus was indeed these threats or these acts of violence?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And were the majority, most of these acts of violence, did they

 9     take place under cover of darkness, at night-time?

10        A.   That is my understanding.

11        Q.   And is it right that the perpetrators would often masquerade in

12     JNA uniforms?

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, may I have a -- is counsel referring to

14     a paragraph in Mrs. Negga's statement for that proposition?

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, it's paragraph 56.

16        Q.   But, Mrs. Negga, even without looking at your statement, do you

17     remember that that's the way it was?

18        A.   Yeah, I remember in Ilok that is the way it was.  But for other

19     parts of the sector --

20        Q.   Well, there it says -- the very next line says:

21             "I was told that these tactics were used not only in Ilok but

22     also in Erdut and Beli Manastir."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So these tactics were used throughout Sector East?

25        A.   But primarily in Ilok, where the perpetrators would be able to

Page 7222

 1     cross the Backa Palanka and escape into Serbia.

 2        Q.   Now, are you saying that people were coming in from Serbia and

 3     terrorising the local population in Sector East?

 4        A.   Let me put it this way.  As explained to me by Mr. Spanovic, the

 5     minister of defence, the intent was to build a corridor from Knin to

 6     Serbia to connect the Serbian residents between those two points, going

 7     up to the Baranja, hence there was a movement of people between Serbia

 8     and Sector East.  Whether they lived in Sector East or they came from

 9     Serbia, I cannot tell you.  But according to our CIVPOL there was a

10     movement.

11        Q.   Would you agree that in the vast majority of cases of

12     intimidation, violence, in particular violence, the victims were not able

13     to identify specifically the perpetrators?

14        A.   I'm not able to agree to that because the victims who reported to

15     UNPROFOR and who sought UNPROFOR help to either have these harassments

16     stopped or to assist them to cross the confrontation line, they knew the

17     people who were victimising them.

18        Q.   Are you saying that they named them?

19        A.   In many cases they did.

20        Q.   "Many cases," but I'm asking you about the majority of cases.

21     Wasn't it the case -- certainly there were cases where individuals were

22     named, certainly.  My question is in the majority, and I say the vast

23     majority of cases, wasn't it the case that the victims were not able to

24     identify by name the perpetrators?

25        A.   No.  Your use of the word "majority of cases," you know, somewhat

Page 7223

 1     would put me in a corner because there were many cases where they could

 2     not identify, but I could not tell you whether they were the majority or

 3     the minority or a few.

 4        Q.   Fair enough.  Thank you, Mrs. Negga.  Let's look at some

 5     documents that describe some of the acts of violence that were taking

 6     place.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05190, please.  If away go to page

 8     4 --

 9        Q.   And we were just looking at this document, this is your report to

10     Mr. Thornberry of the 22nd of June.  Yes, it's page 4 at the top of the

11     page but it's actually page 5 of e-court.  It says there just below

12     "Beli Manastir":

13             "In the past there have been in the past week cases of torture,

14     maltreatment of minorities and increasing activity of street gangs and

15     irregular, including members of the milicija and special police

16     (Red Berets) against members of minorities."

17             Now, I see that there's an adjective used there without a noun,

18     "irregular."  Did you mean -- what did you mean there, if you can

19     remember?

20        A.   I think the term was used in the same sense as was used when

21     reference was made to the movement of the JNA, the Serbian irregulars,

22     and such-like on the hospital in Vukovar.  That is the meaning of the

23     term "irregular."

24        Q.   So there we seem to have irregulars, street gangs, and also

25     members of the milicija and the Red Berets all participating in these

Page 7224

 1     acts of violence; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you remember on what you based the identification of these

 4     four groups?

 5        A.   It would have been on the reports of CIVPOL, the reports of the

 6     civil affairs officers in the different areas, and ...

 7        Q.   And also based on information given to you by the local police?

 8        A.   When confronted by CIVPOL, the local police would reply that

 9     these were the responsible parties.  But the local police never gave me

10     directly any information.  They interfaced with CIVPOL.  That was

11     CIVPOL's duty, to deal with the police.

12        Q.   Is any of this report under Beli Manastir based on any of your

13     direct communication with local officials?

14        A.   I had talks with Dr. Musavic [phoen], who was head of the

15     medical, whenever he appealed for assistance for medicines or help in

16     curbing the refugee influx.  But as I said, there was resident in

17     Beli Manastir a civil affairs officer, so my presence was not needed

18     directly.  It was his responsibility to collect information, report to

19     me, and then I reported to the director of civil affairs,

20     Mr. Cedric Thornberry.  That was the line of command.

21        Q.   And it says here:

22             "Local authorities are dissociating themselves from these

23     incidents claiming that there are individuals and groups acting on their

24     own.  Regrettably, co-operation with them is excellent in theory but not

25     in practice."

Page 7225

 1             And then it says:

 2             "According to the statement of the police commander, patrolling

 3     has become impossible due to the blockade."

 4             What blockade was in effect that would have anything to do with

 5     patrolling at this time?

 6        A.   There was certain areas that the civil -- CIVPOL was not allowed

 7     to enter.  The Serbs blocked them from entering certain parts of the

 8     sector and they just could not perform their work.  This was all reported

 9     to Cedric Thornberry, the director of civil affairs, to have him

10     interfere at a higher level to ensure that UNPROFOR was in no way

11     obstructed in its duties.

12        Q.   Here we appear - and you're the author of this - it appears that

13     it's the police commander who is complaining about this blockade.  Am I

14     wrong in thinking that this reference to "police commander" is the local

15     police commander?

16        A.   It would be -- it would not be the local police.  It would be the

17     CIVPOL police that are saying we're not allowed to go into certain areas.

18        Q.   The next sense then says:

19             "At all local officials level, due to the present economic and

20     political problems as a result of the sanctions, coping with existing

21     problems is impossible.  This is, indeed, the usual answer that UNPROFOR

22     is getting from those authorities."

23             Now, does that jog your memory at all that the reference to the

24     blockade is really a reference to the sanctions that were preventing oil

25     from reaching Sector East, petrol?

Page 7226

 1        A.   Yeah, the sanctions did work against the sector insofar as there

 2     was no oil to move around.

 3        Q.   And that affected the local police's ability to patrol; correct?

 4        A.   Yeah, they claimed that it did.

 5        Q.   Did you ever hear that the local police were also -- they feared

 6     patrolling because they considered that it was too dangerous, especially

 7     at night?

 8        A.   I didn't hear that.

 9        Q.   Did you ever hear that armed UNPROFOR patrols were shot at when

10     they patrolled at night?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You never heard that the local patrols were equally targeted?

13        A.   I didn't hear that they patrolled at night, but there's one

14     difference.  UNPROFOR could not return fire.  UNPROFOR was just there as

15     a barrier.

16        Q.   We'll come later to UNPROFOR's functions.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could turn the page here.

18        Q.   And just so you know, Mrs. Negga, what I'm trying to do with this

19     document and the succeeding documents is to take us through

20     chronologically so we have a good sense of context.  So we're going to

21     jump sometimes from one issue to the next.

22             Under "Ilok" it says here:

23             "However, the head of the milicija in Babske ... (an immigrant

24     Serb) was found to be intimidating minorities and was dismissed from his

25     job."

Page 7227

 1             Now let me just stop there.  Can you remember by whom he was

 2     dismissed, this immigrant Serb, head of the milicija?

 3        A.   It would have been by the local authorities.  Only they had the

 4     authority to do so.

 5        Q.   Did you understand that he was removed because he had been

 6     intimidating authorities?

 7        A.   That was my understanding.

 8        Q.   Then it says:

 9             "CIVPOL report that the milicija seem genuine in their desire to

10     uphold the Law."

11             Do you know and can you help us understand on what basis they

12     told you that?

13        A.   They told me they believed the militia when they said they wanted

14     things to be quiet.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn please to 05193.

16        Q.   And this is your report of the 25th of June to Mr. Thornberry.

17     If we just look at the second paragraph, we've just seen a reference,

18     Mrs. Negga, to an immigrant Serb and then here in this second paragraph

19     we see reference to:

20             "An incident occurred at Ilok on ... 20 June - some 500 Serbs

21     demonstrated against UNPROFOR ..."

22             And then there are a series of complaints.  I know that

23     subsequently you did participate in meetings with Serb immigrants in

24     Ilok.  Am I right that this group that is demonstrating, they are the

25     immigrants, the recently arrived immigrants to the area?

Page 7228

 1        A.   No, no.  My meetings in Ilok was mainly with the Slovak and

 2     Croatian and other minorities who were under stress.

 3        Q.   Okay.  We'll come to that.  If we could turn to page 3, please --

 4     actually, we could start, perhaps, with page 2.  Here it says, referring

 5     to Mr. Ilic in that second full paragraph:

 6             "He eventually returned to the purpose of our meetings and

 7     pledged that at future meetings all local heads would be present and if

 8     we were unable to solve problems these could be specifically discussed at

 9     which point the local leaders will be called to account."

10             Is that what Mr. Ilic told you, that he would discipline those

11     that he could discipline for not performing their tasks properly?

12        A.   That is right.  But as I repeatedly wrote to Mr. Thornberry, we

13     received assurances but the situation never changed.

14        Q.   Let's turn to page 3.  You describe your meeting with Mr. Kvesic.

15     Again we see a reference at the beginning of this paragraph to 25- to

16     30.000 newcomers arriving from Serbia and Bosnia.  Now, was Mr. Kvesic

17     giving you the same information that you were receiving from the Serb

18     side about the origin of the immigrants?

19        A.   Yeah, they both said from Bosnia-Herzegovina and sometimes added

20     "other parts of the former Yugoslavia," without specifying what the other

21     parts were.

22        Q.   And Mr. Kvesic is reported here as that:

23             "He commended UNPROFOR on its work in that region, in particular

24     BELBAT's regular patrolling as well as CIVPOL's investigatory activities

25     and civil affairs' assistance in dealing with expulsions, threats, and

Page 7229

 1     other human rights violations."

 2             Was BELBAT regularly patrolling in its area?

 3        A.   Oh, yes.

 4        Q.   Why were they doing that?

 5        A.   Because there was need for patrol, the Romas, the gypsies on the

 6     Hungarian border were under constant threat, and other minorities were

 7     also under threat and the Belgians were most conscientious about their

 8     duties for UNPROFOR and their patrolled regularly.

 9        Q.   Did they attempt to locate where non-Serb minorities tended to

10     live?  What I mean is, did they attempt to focus their patrolling

11     geographically to protect non-Serb minorities?

12        A.   Well, I would assume so.  I can't say definitively.

13        Q.   Do you know whether -- how frequently they were patrolling?

14        A.   No, I mean this is the BELBAT.  You know, that was the military.

15     I only co-ordinated the work.  I didn't follow their step-by-step work.

16        Q.   Did you understand - and I think this is implied in your

17     answers - did you understand that they were patrolling in order to

18     restore law and order?

19        A.   Oh, yes.

20        Q.   Did you understand that that was part of their mandate under the

21     Vance Plan?

22        A.   It was part of their mandate insofar as they would keep a strict

23     eye on the local police to ensure that they carried out their functions

24     as other international police would carry out the function in protecting

25     and serving the people.

Page 7230

 1        Q.   Well, my understanding is that the only entity that was supposed

 2     to be supervising the local police was CIVPOL, whereas UNPROFOR had a

 3     different function which didn't involve supervising the local police.

 4     Isn't that right?

 5        A.   That is right, but when there is a shortage of CIVPOL and the

 6     need arises, the UN has to work hand in hand, whether it be with the

 7     UNPROFOR, the UNHCR, or any other UN agency, we have to support each

 8     other to carry out the mandate of UNPROFOR.

 9        Q.   Certainly.  And UNPROFOR, unlike CIVPOL, is fully armed; right?

10        A.   Yes, but as I said, we -- the UN military was not allowed to fire

11     arms, it just carried arms, but it could not use force.

12        Q.   If we go back to page 1, please.  It's describing tension

13     increasing in the area, but I'm interested in the part where it says that

14     there were leaders of industry accusing UNPROFOR of discriminating

15     against them and not protecting them from the dire effects of the

16     sanctions.  They claim that as a result of shortage of raw materials in

17     Beli Manastir area, factories will be closed and approximately 400

18     workers will be laid off.

19             Was the situation that severe in terms of the sanctions, that

20     industry was forced to cease operations?

21        A.   The sanctions did hurt, but it was always used as an excuse by

22     the Serbs to get rid of minorities.

23        Q.   Did you ever -- and you have reported in your statement the

24     number of non-Serbs who were dismissed.  Did you ever conduct any review

25     as to how many Serbs lost their jobs?

Page 7231

 1        A.   When we received complaints of non-Serbs losing their jobs, it

 2     was usually accompanied by the accusation that they were replaced by

 3     Serbs.  So clearly there was no need to conduct an investigation as to

 4     how many Serbs lost jobs if they were being employed.

 5        Q.   So if I understand correctly, to the extent that you allege that

 6     companies were discriminatorily laying off non-Serbs, it's based on the

 7     information given to you by those who were laid off or fired?

 8        A.   Yes, and confirmed later by my confronting the factory owners.

 9        Q.   Which factory owner or owners?

10        A.   For example, in Ilok where certain Slovaks were laid off, they

11     would reply that it's because of the straightened economic circumstances

12     occasioned by the sanctions.

13        Q.   Straightened economic circumstances, so it wasn't that they were

14     replacing these non-Serb workers with Serb workers?

15        A.   No, I'm telling you what they told me.

16        Q.   Thank you.  That is what I wanted to know, thank you.  So they

17     told you that the reason for these layoffs was the straightened economic

18     circumstances?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you observed that, in fact, there were in fact straightened

21     economic circumstances during these times because of the sanctions;

22     correct?

23        A.   There were.  The sanctions hurt the local people across the

24     board.

25        Q.   And there were substantial layoffs?

Page 7232

 1        A.   According to the information we received.

 2        Q.   So I come back to my previous question, and I know, Mrs. Negga,

 3     that it may appear redundant, and I'm so sorry for asking you what may

 4     appear to be a redundant question.  It's correct you weren't able to do a

 5     statistical review of how many Serbs were laid off during this period?

 6        A.   No, I was not.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have 05197, please.

 8        Q.   This is your telefax from the 2nd of July to Mr. Thornberry.  If

 9     we could turn to page 5.

10             "On 29 June 1992 representatives of UNPROFOR, UNHCR, and ICRC met

11     with Serbian immigrant residents of Ilok to hear their complaints, which

12     had been raised at a demonstration of some 500 residents on 21 June and

13     to inform them of our frustrations and problems with their treatment of

14     minorities ... the vocal immigrants were most radical."

15             Does -- do you remember this meeting?

16        A.   Could you --

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I remember this meeting.

19             MR. GOSNELL:

20        Q.   And if we can just scroll down, there's a paragraph that begins:

21             "The concerns expressed ..."

22             And amongst the concerns expressed, it appears that this -- some

23     of the individuals there expressed their determination to prevent return

24     of minorities at all cost.

25             Now, am I right in understanding that essentially this was a

Page 7233

 1     group of Serbs who were radical, extremist, and who didn't want a return

 2     of any non-Serbs to the area?

 3        A.   You're correct.

 4        Q.   Was this fuelled by the fact that they themselves had been

 5     displaced from somewhere else?

 6        A.   I couldn't tell you that.

 7        Q.   Do you remember that they were -- by their demeanour, they were

 8     radical, they were extreme, they were intransigent, I presume, to your

 9     words and the words of the other members of the delegation that met with

10     them?

11        A.   Yes, they were.  But at every meeting the Serbs and -- didn't

12     limit themselves to what was happening or what had happened after 1991

13     November.  They went back into history, you know, World War II, 1792, so

14     one -- you know, this -- it was a fusing of complaints and anger and

15     everything.

16        Q.   Well, it's one thing to talk about historical matters and to know

17     one's history --

18        A.   Yeah.

19        Q.   -- and to know the origins of a conflict, but it's another to

20     express the views that are set out in this paragraph.  And the question

21     that I have for you is:  Did you observe that there was a distinction

22     between recently arrived immigrants - and I understand this is a

23     generalisation - there was a distinction between the views of recently

24     arrived immigrants and those who were long-time residents of the area?

25        A.   Well, I couldn't answer that because I couldn't distinguish as to

Page 7234

 1     who was who.  You know, I didn't know the long-standing -- the

 2     long-term -- long-standing residents and the recent ones, but some were

 3     more vocal than others.

 4        Q.   Well, we have seen two documents where you've managed to draw the

 5     distinction between local residents and newly arrived immigrants because

 6     we have the police commander in Bapska being removed who is identified as

 7     a Serb immigrant, and then we have this group that is identified as a

 8     group of immigrants.  So apparently you were able to draw some

 9     distinction on occasion?

10        A.   On occasion, on occasion we were.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn to page 7, please.  Actually, let's

12     start with page 8 and we'll go back to page 7.

13        Q.   Under "miscellaneous," the last line:

14             "In many areas the immigrant Serbs are the main troublemakers and

15     retaliators."

16             Do you remember that that was your impression?

17        A.   Yes, because that was reported to me by CIVPOL who had their

18     information from the local police.

19        Q.   Let's turn to the previous page.

20             "Mr. Stojanovic, the Mayor of the village who is influential as

21     well as his wife ... who deals with refugees, has promised to assist in

22     calming down the tension in the village.  They recognised the existence

23     of extremists who get drunk and terrorise the people during the night.

24     The Mayor stated that the Blue Brigades (special police or milicija) are

25     involved in cases of harassment.  Their commanders are requested to

Page 7235

 1     reorganise them and remove those who misbehave.  He also mentioned that

 2     all local officials in the Baranja had received clear instructions from

 3     high officials of the Krajina to that effect."

 4             Now, do you remember that instructions, whether from any source,

 5     whether it's this information or any other source, that indeed such

 6     instructions were being issued --

 7        A.   We were --

 8        Q.   -- by, as it says, here "high officials of the Krajina"?

 9        A.   We merely reported what we were told.

10        Q.   And that's what you're doing here?

11        A.   Yeah.

12             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 5200, please.

13        Q.   This is the 6th of July, so it's four days after the previous

14     document.  Now, I just want to start with that second paragraph which

15     takes us into a slightly different topic.  This is describing the

16     voluntary certificate that is required to be obtained.  And it says here

17     that Mr. Ilic and all local authorities are adamant on this requirement.

18             Did you ever hear or did it occur to you that, in fact, Mr. Ilic

19     and the others had instituted the requirement of this certificate because

20     they didn't want people leaving Sector East willy-nilly?  By "people," I

21     mean non-Serbs.

22        A.   It didn't occur to me because on occasion the council would ask

23     us to help non-Serbs to cross the confrontation line.

24        Q.   Certainly there were occasions - and I understand the criteria

25     that may have been applied by you and by them to determine that - but

Page 7236

 1     what I'm getting at is:  Why would there be -- why would they reserve the

 2     right to delay departure, if you know, by up to 90 days to consider the

 3     matter?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   Could it be because they, just as you, were concerned that they

 6     didn't want accusations coming from you, or from the Croats for that

 7     matter, that they were colluding, facilitating the departures of these

 8     individuals without adequate cause?

 9        A.   It was put to us that this was the policy to be adhered to.  What

10     their reasons, I don't know, but if it's their policy - and they told us

11     it was their policy - that was it.

12        Q.   So they never at all told you what the reasons for the policy

13     were?

14        A.   No.  Each time it was that the reason had been made above or they

15     had to seek permission to give us information as to what was happening or

16     to change any -- any practice, and that was it.  They couldn't exercise

17     much initiative on the ground.  They said they would have to get

18     permission from above or from Knin to do certain things or to answer

19     certain questions.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn, please, to 5202.

21        Q.   This is your note to Mr. Thornberry dated the 9th of July.  If we

22     turn over to page 2, this is where you describe the incident of you being

23     stopped at a check-point.  It says at the bottom of that first paragraph:

24             "The milicija man arrived, identified himself, and apologised for

25     the inconvenience after some ten minutes and requested us to leave.  He

Page 7237

 1     was clearly nervous, as one bandit walked around agitatedly ..."

 2             I just wanted to ask you about that.  Why did you describe the

 3     one individual as a bandit?

 4        A.   Because that was the description given to any civilian who took

 5     arms and took the law into his hands.  He was described as a bandit.

 6        Q.   And as far as you were concerned, that was what that person at

 7     the check-point was?

 8        A.   Yes, he was a civilian with arms, threatening.

 9        Q.   And the milicija man was fearful of this individual?

10        A.   Yeah, he was nervous.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 5207, please.  I'm terribly sorry,

12     can we stay on the current document for one more question.

13        Q.   If we go to page 4, the last two sentences concern people being

14     settled temporarily in houses and it's talking about settling refugees in

15     houses.  It says:

16             "... while the number of refugees arriving to Ilok exceeded

17     30.000.  It is understood that the commission was created on the local

18     level and their action have no legal authority; they can move people from

19     one house to another only according to their own judgement.  Thus, they

20     can move by force a family of two, occupying a big house, to a smaller

21     one.  To the question whether this policy applies only to the houses

22     occupied by non-Serbs, he answered that Serbs too are being resettled

23     now.  The earlier information provided by UNPROFOR CIVPOL confirms this

24     fact, since they have been receiving complaints from Serbs on the

25     subject."

Page 7238

 1             Do you remember that the lack of accommodation in Ilok was so

 2     severe that, indeed, both Serbs and non-Serbs were being shuffled around

 3     in order to accommodate refugees?

 4        A.   That was the information provided by CIVPOL.

 5        Q.   And did that situation get worse as it was getting progressively

 6     colder throughout 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 5207, please.

 9        Q.   This is from you to Yolanda Auger, referring to some individuals

10     who were expelled on the 4th and the 10th of July.  And assistance was

11     provided by UNPROFOR for their departure.  And it says here:

12             "On both occasions both" -- perhaps we could enlarge.

13             "On both occasions both UNPROFOR ... commander and CIVAFF (Abdul

14     Aziz and Felesinger) tried to persuade the individuals to reconsider

15     their decision to leave the Baranja.  In the case of those listed on the

16     10 July from Darda, BELBAT soldiers were posted in the houses of 2

17     families for two nights to ensure their safety.  When the local police

18     (milicija) protested that there were unable to guarantee the safety of

19     those individuals, arrangements were made for their crossing into

20     Osijek."

21             Now, my first question is, why didn't -- if you know, you may not

22     know, but why didn't BELBAT stay there permanently at these houses to

23     protect these individuals?

24        A.   The BELBAT Battalion had a large area to patrol and its function

25     was not to stay there permanently.  They were just to secure immediate

Page 7239

 1     safety.

 2        Q.   So they didn't have the resources?

 3        A.   They didn't.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn to page 3.

 5        Q.   Now, this concerns a meeting, on page 3, and this is your report

 6     of the 17th of July to Mr. Thornberry.  This concerns your meeting with a

 7     prosecutor, a local prosecutor.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  I may have called the wrong number.  Could I have

 9     5209.

10        Q.   At page 3 the heading says "meetings."  So does that mean -- when

11     it says "meetings" in your documents, does that mean that you attended

12     the meeting that's reported?

13        A.   In many instances, yes.

14        Q.   So it describes your meeting with Mr. Milorad Trosic, along with

15     Larry Moore, and Mr. Trosic is describing to you his activities, and it's

16     describing the Tovarnik case.

17             "He further volunteered that the case had been upgraded from the

18     original charges at the initiative of the Court System.  He explained the

19     stages of a case, which necessitates a second, thorough investigation by

20     the Public Prosecutor's office, on the directive of the Judge.  He

21     further stated that the criminal code had been developed in co-ordination

22     with UNPROFOR."

23             Let's stop there.  Is that right, that the criminal code was

24     developed in conjunction or in consultation with --

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 7240

 1        Q.   He goes on or you go on in your report:

 2             "The Tovarnik docket was presented to the Judge who has remanded

 3     it to the Prosecutor for further, thorough investigation.  Much

 4     discussion was held during this reporting.  CAC expressed dismay at the

 5     slow pace at which the investigation was conducted and remarked on the

 6     axiom that 'justice delayed is justice denied.'  CIVPOL also expressed

 7     surprise that a request would be presented to UNPROFOR to return persons

 8     to an area where they had been and would be in physical danger.

 9     Mr. Trosic endorsed that he would request from UNPROFOR the return of the

10     22 expellees to receive their statements.  We await the request.  The

11     accused were in the UNPA, their passports had been withdrawn, and they

12     were under limited custody.  CAC has information to the contrary."

13             Now, do you remember, is that -- was that the nature of the

14     conversation, the prosecutor was saying:  I need to take statements from

15     the individuals who are victims and the civil affairs commission -- not

16     you, it's -- the CIVPOL reaction is:  Well, how on earth do you expect

17     these people to come back and give statements under current conditions.

18     Is that the essence of it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is that a problem that would have applied to other cases of

21     expulsion?

22        A.   If they were required to return.

23        Q.   Did you ever hear judges, investigating judges, express the view

24     that they were required as a matter of procedure to take those statements

25     from those individuals in person?

Page 7241

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Sorry, let me just repeat -- sorry, I don't want to cut you off.

 3        A.   No, I don't understand your question.

 4        Q.   Did you yourself hear or did you ever hear from anyone else who

 5     was reporting to you other occasions when judges expressed the view that

 6     they needed to take statements from witnesses in person?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I see the clock.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

10             Mrs. Negga, this is the time for our first break, 30 minutes.  We

11     will be back at 11.00.  The court usher will escort you out of the

12     courtroom.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I'm told that I have approximately

20     ten minutes left of my allotted time.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's right.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  I would request a little bit more time.  I think I

23     can complete in 30 minutes, approximately.  If Your Honours wish, I can

24     motivate the request.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let me -- I think that won't be a problem,

Page 7242

 1     Mr. Gosnell.  Your re-direct, Ms. Biersay, will not be extremely long?  I

 2     mean --

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  Not extremely.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Not --

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  I --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Not so that we will get into trouble today?

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  No, I don't see us certainly going beyond 1.00 and

 8     I will endeavour to make it very focused.  Of course, it depends on

 9     what's raised in the next 30 minutes.  And I do plan on playing a video

10     and that may have some logistic issues.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we will finish before 2.00?

12             MS. BIERSAY:  I think that's safe.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Or even at or we're here until 2.00.  Okay.

14     Thank you.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Could we turn to the next page of the document that we already

19     have.

20        Q.   And just to remind you, Mrs. Negga, this is your 17th of July,

21     1992, report to Mr. Thornberry.  And this again is Mr. Trosic speaking

22     apparently to you.  It says:

23             "He explained that the local authorities were aware of the

24     unprofessional behaviour of some milicija and had established a Police

25     Training School at Knin to correct the situation.  He emphasised that

Page 7243

 1     only temporary custody of houses (e.g. in Vukovar was given to newcomers

 2     and that the new laws recognised private ownership ..."

 3             Now, I asked you a question about this earlier and you said you

 4     never remembered local officials mentioning that these accommodation

 5     arrangements were temporary.  Does that jog your memory that --

 6        A.   Then I stand corrected because if it's in my report that he did

 7     say that, then he did say that.

 8        Q.   The third paragraph down here describes a meeting with

 9     General Biorcevic, Novakovic, Jovanovic of the JNA, and chief of the

10     investigation of the local police.  UNPROFOR was represented by

11     Colonel Malherb, Colonel Jokin, CIVPOL, and CvAO.  And it says there

12     that:

13             "General Biorcevic and others appealed strongly to BELBAT not to

14     implement the ultimatum in order to give more time for consultations."

15             I presume that the ultimatum being referred to there is the need

16     for immediate disarmament of all groups of those possessed with

17     long-armed -- long-barrelled weapons; is that right?

18        A.   I assume so, but as you said the CvO was there.  I was not

19     present at that meeting.

20        Q.   What was the JNA's role at this stage, July 1992, in events in

21     Sector East?

22        A.   To my knowledge, there was no JNA role, but I know that our

23     military met regularly with officers of Serbia in Belgrade that were

24     presumably the head of JNA.  But otherwise, I did not know of any

25     official JNA presence in the sector, in the UNPROFOR.

Page 7244

 1        Q.   Did it have anything to do perhaps with what you were telling us

 2     earlier about certain groups entering Sector East from Serbia?

 3        A.   I don't understand.

 4        Q.   Let me be more specific.  You were describing about groups

 5     entering from Serbia and engaging in intimidation and terrorisation of

 6     the local population, and in your statement you've mentioned that there

 7     was at least one incident where the JNA was present on the Backa Palanka

 8     bridge, blocking access to certain individuals.  Do you know whether the

 9     JNA's role in Sector East had to do with to whom they were granting

10     access to the area?

11        A.   In my reports, I recounted that the JNA were on the Serbian side

12     of the bridge.  UNPROFOR was on the bridge and the protected area side.

13     Whenever there were incidents in Ilok and it was reported that uniforms

14     of the JNA were being used, the sector commander, General Peters, on one

15     or two occasions took me to Belgrade to one of his meetings with General

16     I think it was Kosic or something to ask him to help us to curb this

17     movement, whether it was by JNA or local people who were misusing JNA

18     uniforms.  But that was all that I knew of any contact between me and the

19     JNA.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn to 05260, please.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, may I have a tab number, please.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  I think it's tab 123, Prosecution tab 123.

23        Q.   Now, this is your letter to Mr. Ilic and attached -- and perhaps

24     we should go to the attachment first to see what it is you were

25     responding to.

Page 7245

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  So if we could go to page 2 -- page 3.

 2        Q.   It says -- Mr. Ilic is writing to you on the 23rd of September.

 3     He says that:

 4             "I sent a letter immediately to our Internal Affairs Office in

 5     Vukovar, asking them to issue a permission that those people in Question

 6     can leave this territory, and go to the other (Croatian) side.

 7             "However, they informed me that a certain procedure has to be

 8     obeyed and that each person in question has to submit an application in

 9     writing, to the Internal Affairs Office in Vukovar, asking for permission

10     to leave this territory, pointing out in this application that they want

11     to leave this territory of their own free will."

12             But it says that they will do it "this very day."

13             Now if we can turn to your response at page 1, and this is in

14     relation, Mrs. Negga, to the question I asked you earlier as to whether

15     any of the local authorities explained why there was this policy.  And if

16     we look down at the fifth paragraph, what you say is:

17             "Although I can understand that in normal situations one must

18     file an application with the Internal Affairs Office in Vukovar for

19     permission to leave the territory in order to ensure safe return in

20     future ..."

21             Now, it seems to me that you are expressing there what you

22     understand to be the reason or the policy behind the rule.  Do you

23     remember where you received that information about what was the reason

24     for the rule in normal situations?

25        A.   I can't say precisely.

Page 7246

 1        Q.   Do you remember receiving requests from local officials for

 2     assistance in respect of law enforcement.  When I say "you," I don't mean

 3     you personally.  I mean in general did UNPROFOR receive requests for

 4     assistance?

 5        A.   That would have been directed to -- if it's from the police, it

 6     would have been to CIVPOL.

 7        Q.   Well, did they ever ask UNPROFOR for assistance to your

 8     knowledge?

 9        A.   To my knowledge, if you're asking did they ask the civil affairs

10     co-ordinator, no.

11        Q.   Well, what I'm asking is whether it was ever reported to you by

12     anyone on the UN side that such requests had been made to UNPROFOR?

13        A.   I can't recall.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 5257, please.  If we could turn to

15     page 5.

16        Q.   This is your letter to Mr. Thornberry dated the 25th of

17     September, 1992.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could zoom in on paragraph 5.

19             "On 16 September ... Colonel Jokin, Cmdt, Maldeghem and inspector

20     Hogue ... attended a meeting with Mr. Petrovic, President of the local

21     community of Branjin Vrh... to discuss the increased terrorism in the

22     village ... during the meeting, Colonel Jokin inquired if the presence of

23     refugees from Western Slavonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina has, in a way,

24     affected the situation in the area.  Mr. Petrovic stated that some of

25     these refugees are responsible for other crimes committed in the village

Page 7247

 1     since they want to seek for revenge.  Colonel Jokin emphasised that

 2     terrorism in the area has greatly increased in the past weeks and that it

 3     should not be tolerated.  It was finally agreed that a more established

 4     co-operation between UNPROFOR and the local authorities of Branjin Vrh be

 5     implemented to prevent further crimes in the future."

 6             Now, my question is does this in any way remind you that -- and I

 7     understand about co-ordination between CIVPOL and the police.  But were

 8     there ever requests for assistance from UNPROFOR, for example, in

 9     relation to this town, Branjin Vrh, as far as you can recall?

10        A.   I'm only reading what is here because as we said earlier BELBAT

11     in Beli Manastir in the Baranja was quite active in protecting the

12     non-Serbs in the area.  And they would have had greater co-operation with

13     the police there, and whatever you read is what was reported to me by

14     BELBAT or the CvAO in the Baranja.

15        Q.   And given what you've just told us, that BELBAT's function at

16     this time in Beli Manastir was to attempt to protect non-Serbs, it's

17     probable, isn't it, based on everything you know that they would have had

18     to co-ordinate with the local police in that function; right?

19        A.   Yes, if they were undertaking work that should be done by CIVPOL,

20     they would have to co-ordinate with the police.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn, please, to L2.

22        Q.   And while that's coming up, I can ask you, Mrs. Negga, it's

23     right, isn't it, that the Vance Plan accorded no de jure status to the

24     RSK?

25        A.   Oh, yes.  It was never recognised.  In all the reports you would

Page 7248

 1     see us refer to the RSK as the "so-called republic," and this directive

 2     came directly from the Security Council.  And yesterday you had asked

 3     whether at my pay grade I would have spoken to Mr. Hadzic.  Since I was

 4     the co-ordinator for Sector East, it was unlikely; but if I had been

 5     appointed to Sector South, as many of my other colleagues were, they

 6     would have had contact with Mr. Hadzic because according to the UNPROFOR

 7     mandate he was the leader of the local authority and it wasn't a matter

 8     of pay grade.  It was a matter of approaching authority, authority.

 9        Q.   Which local authority was he the head of according to your

10     knowledge?

11        A.   The Serb in the Krajina.

12        Q.   What do you mean when you say "the Krajina"?

13        A.   Well, the so-called Krajina.  It is stated to us repeatedly by

14     the Serbs that they had established an area from Knin to the Danube on

15     the border of Serbia.

16        Q.   So you're saying that this authority encompassed Sector East?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I'm not exactly sure what difference it makes whether you were in

19     Sector South or Sector East that a person of your pay grade would have

20     met Mr. Hadzic.

21        A.   I would not have written directly to him on what occurred in

22     Sector East because there was at Vukovar a council and there were in

23     other sectors, Sector West, Sector North, there were other areas where

24     there were established officials of the so-called Serbian Krajina.  So in

25     that particular area where we were commissioned and appointed to act, we

Page 7249

 1     would approach the people in that particular area.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn, please, to page 9 of e-court of this

 3     document.  I believe that page 9 in e-court should be page 16 up at the

 4     top.  Yes, thank you.

 5        Q.   Now, it says here under "basic concept":

 6             "The role of the United Nations troops would be ensure that the

 7     areas remained demilitarised and that all persons residing in them were

 8     protected from fear of armed attack.  The role of the United Nations

 9     police monitors would be to ensure that the local police forces carried

10     out their duties without discriminating against persons of any

11     nationality or abusing anyone's human rights ..."

12             Now, would you agree with me that what is recognised de jure here

13     is local police forces?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And they have duties and a function under the Vance Plan?

16        A.   Well, as all other police over the world, they were to protect

17     the residents of their communities.

18        Q.   And not just as any other police force around the world, but this

19     is foreseen as their function in the Vance Plan; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we turn to the next page, please.

22        Q.   Paragraph 10:

23             "The deployment and functions of the United Nations force.

24             "The function of protecting the inhabitants of the UNPAs would be

25     shared between the United Nations Force's infantry units and its civilian

Page 7250

 1     police monitors.  The infantry would ensure that the UNPAs remained

 2     demilitarised.  The police monitors would ensure that the local police

 3     carried out their duties without discrimination against any nationality

 4     and with full respect for the human rights of all residents of the

 5     UNPAs."

 6             And my question is this, and we know from elsewhere in this

 7     document and from other information we have that local police were only

 8     allowed to carry sidearms.  If you have a situation where you have a

 9     significantly armed group, let's call them bandits, who are committing

10     crimes and they're heavily armed, who under the Vance Plan, according to

11     you, has the ultimate authority to stop that -- not only authority,

12     responsibility, if the police can't do it?

13        A.   That was a bit of a problem for the CIVPOL and the police force

14     because if you couldn't use force, how were you going to stop them?  And

15     that was particularly brought to light with the incidents on the

16     Batina bridge, when the Serbs sought to displace the BELBAT military and

17     build customs offices on the Batina bridge.  The United Nations was quite

18     concerned that a war might have erupted between the Serbs and UNPROFOR,

19     and they did everything possible to avoid that.  So it was a bit of a

20     quandary as to exactly how such confrontation could be stopped, as was

21     related to me as the political officer on the ground.

22        Q.   If we scroll down to paragraph -- well, it's there, paragraph 11.

23     We see a variety of duties.  In exercising these duties, was it your view

24     and UNPROFOR's view -- not your personal view, was it UNPROFOR's view

25     that it was permitted to use armed force to exercise -- to carry out

Page 7251

 1     these functions?

 2        A.   As I said, we were in a bit of a quandary in UNPROFOR because

 3     according to the United Nations rules the police could only use force if

 4     it was first directed at them.  They couldn't shoot.  They could shoot

 5     back if they were threatened.  So that was a bit of a problem.

 6        Q.   So they could shoot back if they were threatened in the

 7     performance of these functions; is that right?

 8        A.   If they were shot at, not threatened.  If they were shot at, then

 9     instinctively they could, but they were cautioned not to.

10        Q.   Did UNPROFOR take measures to prevent armed groups from carrying

11     out intimidation and terrorism in Sector East?

12        A.   As far as I know by the patrols, the very presence of UNPROFOR

13     was meant to discourage such acts, and by the counselling of the CIVPOL

14     to the local police it was further meant to strengthen their arm in

15     preventing groups from carrying out acts of terrorism.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 05163, please.  And I would like to

17     go to page 5.

18        Q.   Now, down at the bottom it says that the releasing officer is

19     Lieutenant-General Nambiar.  Subject -- and the date is the 20th of May,

20     1992, before your arrival; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, it was.

22        Q.   It says:

23             "Please ensure immediate effective action using resources of

24     infantry battalions and UNCIVPOL to stop incidents of expulsions in your

25     sector.  Having assumed responsibility for the sector, we cannot allow

Page 7252

 1     this to go on.  Total involvement by everyone is essential if we are to

 2     have any credibility."

 3             Now, did you know that there had been such orders before your

 4     arrival, namely, that expulsions should be prevented by UNPROFOR by

 5     force?

 6        A.   I didn't know of this directive by the force commander.

 7        Q.   And I shouldn't have said "by force."  It simply says here

 8     "immediate effective action," not clear what that might be.  Does that

 9     reflect that dilemma that you were describing to us earlier?  Sorry, I

10     should have been clearer.  The dilemma that on the one hand there

11     appeared to be some functions and on the other hand -- assigned, but on

12     the other hand the rules of engagement prevent UNPROFOR from using force

13     except when fired upon.

14        A.   Well, my reply stands quite apart from this, you know.  I mean,

15     there's -- as far as I'm concerned, they're not connected.  The general

16     said prevent the expulsion of refugees, and I'm telling you the

17     difficulties that the CIVPOL and the infantry encountered in preventing

18     terrorism.

19        Q.   Did you know that there had been a massive effort by RUSBAT in

20     mid-May or late May to prevent expulsions through active presence

21     patrolling blocking roads, did you know that that had occurred before

22     your arrival?

23        A.   After my arrival I learnt of that.

24        Q.   Were they continuing to do that when you arrived or had that

25     ceased?

Page 7253

 1        A.   When I arrived, the actions seemed to have shifted more to

 2     Baranja than to RUSBAT because RUSBAT was in the eastern side of the

 3     sector, not the northern side.  And I can't recall that there were many

 4     instances where RUSBAT was engaged in blocking, you know, after my

 5     arrival, you know, there were other duties that it performed, but I can't

 6     recall any exerted effort to block expulsions or -- from the section --

 7     sector.

 8        Q.   Aside from that previous document that we've seen where

 9     General Nambiar says "we cannot allow this to go on," was there any

10     discussion within UNPROFOR that following the departure of the JNA it was

11     UNPROFOR that had ultimate, final responsibility to prevent armed groups

12     who could not be stopped by the local police, that it was UNPROFOR that

13     had ultimate and final responsibility to prevent that from happening?

14        A.   I was the political affairs officer and my function was to try to

15     persuade the local authorities to put some break on whatever was

16     happening.  Whatever the military and the CIVPOL did, it was their

17     professional duties, you know, so I could not tell you definitively

18     whether UNPROFOR was expected to -- to take up the functions of the JNA.

19     In my mind, the JNA was pre-history, you know, and I knew nothing about

20     their presence in Sector East.  Indeed, I don't think they were there

21     because sector -- the UNPROFOR was part of Croatia, and I don't think the

22     JNA would have been present in Croatia.

23        Q.   I understand that you don't have full knowledge of all of these

24     issues and that you were not on the military side and I do fully

25     understand that, but my question is:  Once you do have the JNA departing

Page 7254

 1     as the armed force of the area on the one hand, but on the other hand the

 2     Vance Plan is denying de jure recognition of any other force, isn't it

 3     really UNPROFOR's responsibility to fill that vacuum that's been created

 4     by the Vance Plan?

 5        A.   You're asking my opinion?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   I'm not in a position to give an opinion on that because the

 8     military and the CIVPOL, they have their mandate from the

 9     Security Council, you know, and whatever they decide through the force

10     commander is accepted.  I can't give you an opinion as to whether I think

11     it's right or wrong.

12        Q.   Well, it's not a question of what was right or wrong.  Actually,

13     my question was only about whether you had heard that within UNPROFOR,

14     that because you don't have a de jure recognition of any armed forces in

15     any of the UNPAs, that final responsibility has to rest with UNPROFOR, in

16     particular the infantry that had arrived.  My question is:  Did you ever

17     hear that that was -- within UNPROFOR, that was perceived and understood

18     to be the case?

19        A.   It was understood that the military would interpose itself

20     between opposing forces.  And I guess they would know what to do from

21     there on.

22        Q.   I just have one more set of questions for you, a few short

23     questions.  If you could look at paragraph 73 of your statement, the last

24     sentence.  And we can bring this up on the screen because I won't be

25     calling any documents, Madam Registrar.  The last sentence says:

Page 7255

 1             "Mark Penn (my civil affairs officer) and the military later told

 2     me that Milosevic had called Arkan to order him to desist with the forced

 3     mobilisation of" a particular group, which I understand from your

 4     statement is being pressed into some kind of military or police service.

 5             What did Mark Penn say about this event, about his contacts with

 6     Mr. Milosevic?

 7        A.   Mark Penn had no contact with Milosevic.

 8        Q.   Do you know how he got this information?

 9        A.   He got the information through RUSBAT because it was RUSBAT who

10     was -- that was in a position to alert -- look, the UN could not help us.

11     We were on the highway being chased by Arkan's men because they wanted to

12     extract these able-bodied Croatians to use as cannon fodder wherever.

13     The UN could not help.  Luckily, the Russian commander of UNPROFOR had

14     good liaison working relationship with Belgrade and they knew that at

15     that point they could help.  And it was through that avenue, I'm told,

16     that Arkan was persuaded not to follow our convoy to Lipovac.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Negga.  If we could turn to paragraph 98 it says:

18             "I knew that Arkan had contacts at the highest level through

19     Milosevic and the JNA ..."

20             What do you know, if anything, about any contacts that Arkan may

21     have had with the JNA?

22        A.   Arkan was headquartered in Erdut and he moved freely between

23     Sector East and Serbia and elsewhere in the former Yugoslavia.  That we

24     know for sure because it was broadcast to us, it was boasted to us that

25     he had connections at the highest level, and that's all we know from

Page 7256

 1     hearsay.  But personally I never saw him with President Milosevic and

 2     never saw him with any other of the presidents.  I only saw him

 3     patrolling with his live tiger in Erdut.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Can we turn to paragraph 103, please.

 5        Q.   I won't call up the document that you refer to here, but it

 6     concerns an extensive discussion between Mr. Thornberry and Mr. Spanovic

 7     in which, as I understand it, Mr. Spanovic sets out quite frankly his

 8     views about the special police and where he considers they should be

 9     deployed and disarmament and other issues.  I won't take you to that,

10     Mrs. Negga.  It says here:

11             "My understanding was that Arkan received orders from Belgrade,

12     so Spanovic had no control whether Arkan would be there or not.  The

13     special police also appeared to have no control over Arkan and the

14     Red Berets."

15             What's the basis for you having said that in your statement?

16        A.   Because at the meeting Mr. Thornberry questioned Mr. Spanovic,

17     the minister of defence, to find out exactly when the Vance Plan would be

18     implemented.  And it was from the answers that Mr. Spanovic gave that I

19     was able to come to these conclusions.

20        Q.   Mrs. Negga, thank you very much for having come here to testify.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, those are my questions.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.

23             Ms. Biersay.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  Just one moment

25     while I reorganise, if I may.

Page 7257

 1             Okay.  I think I'm squared away.  Thank you for your patience.

 2                           Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mrs. Negga.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   I'd like to pick up where counsel just left, which is the

 6     presence of Arkan in Sector East, if I may.  Firstly, you described that

 7     Arkan was chasing you down the road to extract able-bodied Croatians.

 8     Could you explain to the Trial Chamber the context for that.  Who were

 9     these able-bodied Croatians?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, objection.  I did not ask any

11     questions at all about that incident.  The witness did provide some

12     information about that in her answer, but it doesn't arise out of cross.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  It did arise out of cross, Your Honour, which is

14     why I'm following up on it.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Overruled.

16             MS. BIERSAY:

17        Q.   So, Mrs. Negga, could you describe to the Trial Chamber the

18     circumstances under which Arkan was chasing you down the highway to

19     extract able-bodied Croatians?

20        A.   Earlier that morning Mark Penn, the civilian affairs officer,

21     came to my house in Dalj.  He had received a message from the RUSBAT

22     complaining that a group of Croatians had gone to the Russian Battalion

23     at Bapska and had sought refuge there because the men were being told

24     that they were being mobilised to be sent to the front.  They took their

25     wives, mothers, children, grandchildren to the RUSBAT settlement at

Page 7258

 1     Bapska.  The Russian Battalion had kept them for a few days but they had

 2     run out of fittle, they had no food to feed them, and they wanted help

 3     from UNPROFOR.  And they called me to say could I arrange to transport

 4     them into Croatia, into the Serbian -- into the Croatian side of the

 5     sector because the women said that their men will not be sent to war.

 6     The men did not go to war.  And the old people and the children were

 7     starving.  We got to Bapska in about two and a half hours, had a great

 8     big melee, and we collected the people.  They all said:  We want to go to

 9     Osijek, into Croatia, and we organised truckloads of them, left Bapska,

10     got onto the highway on our way to Lipovac.  And at that point we learned

11     that Arkan was coming to intercept the convoy.

12             Erdut headquarters telephoned Thornberry in Zagreb and he was

13     powerless to do anything about it.  Then they decided to turn to the

14     sector commander who had ties with the Belgrade military, and it was in

15     that way that I was told later that Arkan had been -- called off the

16     chase, and we were allowed to get to Lipovac and deliver these people,

17     some 73 of them, unharmed to the Croatian authorities on the other side

18     of the protected area.

19        Q.   I believe you also used the phrase when you were describing this

20     today, you used the word "cannon fodder."  Can you explain what that

21     means?

22        A.   It was rumoured or common knowledge in the sector that whenever

23     there was any fighting, the non-Serbs were put on the front line.  And as

24     far as I know in military parlance that's cannon fodder, they received

25     the first volleys.

Page 7259

 1        Q.   I'd now like to turn your attention to, if I may, it's

 2     65 ter number 5186.  It's a document that you were shown by the Defence

 3     and it will come up on your screen.  And specifically --

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  For the Court's reference, I believe that's tab 14.

 5     And specifically I'd like to go to page 4, in e-court I believe it will

 6     be page 5.  Excuse me, no, this is not the document.  I think I can

 7     perhaps do it without the document.

 8        Q.   Mrs. Negga, do you recall the questions that you were asked by

 9     counsel about the police commander who stated that patrolling had become

10     impossible due to blockade?  Do you recall that series of questions about

11     whether or not there was sufficient oil for patrol to be taking place?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   Now, in Erdut, for example, was there a place that provided oil

14     as far as you know?

15        A.   In Erdut, Arkan built a gas station in a matter of two weeks.

16        Q.   Did you find that unusual that it was done in two weeks?

17        A.   It was so efficient.  It was mind boggling because it was not --

18     in the West you don't have that rapidity of building and supplying.

19        Q.   Was there a paramilitary based in Erdut?

20        A.   Yes, Arkan and his Tigers were in Erdut.

21        Q.   And you personally, Mrs. Negga, you described that to your -- the

22     best of your memory you recall one meeting with Mr. Goran Hadzic; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you ever have the opportunity to see Mr. Hadzic in the

Page 7260

 1     presence of Arkan?

 2        A.   I never did.

 3        Q.   Do you know, as you sit here today, anything about the

 4     relationship Mr. Goran Hadzic had with Arkan?

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  I think we've gone really far afield,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry.  Mrs. Biersay, what's your answer to

 8     the -- what I suppose to be an objection?

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  Defence counsel went a great length to establish a

10     link between Arkan and Belgrade.  I would like to explore with the

11     witness the basis that she may have had to know of the relationship

12     between Hadzic and Arkan and she says she has none, and so that -- that's

13     the end of the inquiry, but that was the relevance.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  When you say that was the end of the inquiry?

15             MS. BIERSAY:  I have no further questions on the issue.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  If I may now have 65 ter number 5260.

18        Q.   Do you recognise that as the document that you discussed today,

19     Mrs. Negga?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What I'd like to do is to go to the last large paragraph there,

22     and you say:

23             "Although I can understand that in normal situations one must

24     file an application ... in this instance" the request "seems cynical and

25     unjustified."

Page 7261

 1             Can you explain to the Trial Chamber the basis for your

 2     distinction of normal situations and this specific situation where

 3     Mr. Ilic is requiring there be statements from non-Serbs saying that they

 4     were voluntarily leaving?

 5        A.   I believe this concerned mainly the people from Svinjarevci and

 6     they were not leaving voluntarily.  They were hounded.  They were older

 7     people, some -- especially one woman, very old, sick in bed, who was

 8     constantly tormented, terrorised, and taken from her bed and was told

 9     that she should leave and go over into Osijek.  There was no

10     willingness -- they couldn't volunteer to go anywhere because they were

11     in no physical condition, some of them, to depart on their own.

12        Q.   You were asked some questions about the confiscation of property.

13     Do you recall those questions?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Were there -- based on what you know, were people -- non-Serbs

16     who were leaving, did they always take their removable property?

17        A.   They couldn't always.  Those who had a plot of land -- not plot,

18     who had land to farm and therefore had tractors and other farming

19     equipment, they couldn't take it with them.  They had to go just whatever

20     they could take in their hands as clothing or bedding or whatever, that's

21     all they were allowed to leave with or that they could carry with them.

22        Q.   If that was all that they could leave with, what conclusions do

23     you draw about whether their departures were voluntary or not voluntary?

24        A.   We just concluded that when the claimants -- or the victims came

25     to us and said:  "Please remove us.  We were told if we do not leave, we

Page 7262

 1     will be killed."  There was no choice.  It's either go away or we kill

 2     you.

 3        Q.   I'd like to now direct your attention to 65 ter number 5190 which

 4     is also a document used by the Defence, and I'd like to go to page 4 if

 5     it's possible.  Could we go to the bottom of that page, please.

 6             Now, counsel read with you that last full sentence at the end.

 7             "At the same time, the Serbianisation of the Sector

 8     continues - especially in the Baranja where busloads of tired-looking

 9     older people ..."

10             Do you see that line?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And there are two words there, correct, after "while the"?  Do

13     you see that at the end of the sentence there are two words --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   -- "while the"?

16             I'd like to go to the next page, please.  Are you able to see it,

17     Mrs. Negga?

18        A.   If you could --

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Make it a little bit bigger.

20             THE WITNESS:  -- enlarge it, please.

21             MS. BIERSAY:

22        Q.   So this continues from the previous page:

23             "While the ethnicities of the passengers were not verified, it is

24     more than likely that they are Serbs since every effort is still being

25     made - successfully - to root out minorities by accusing them of having

Page 7263

 1     collaborated with the enemy, dismissing them from jobs because of their

 2     nationality or drafting them into the army, thus compelling them to leave

 3     the area 'voluntarily.'"

 4             Did I read that correctly?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And could you explain for us the connection between the belief

 7     that the people previously described were, in fact, Serbs.  What is the

 8     connection between that and every effort being made to route out

 9     minorities?

10        A.   Well, the connection is that the reports were that Serbs were

11     being brought into the area, and in the protected area the minorities

12     were being told to leave or by different reasons, by the different

13     reasons that you read.

14        Q.   Now, Mrs. Negga, Mr. Gosnell went through quite a few documents

15     that fell within the beginning period of UNPROFOR's deployment to the

16     area.  Did you have an evolution, given your experience, your evolution

17     in your assessment of the situation from, say, May 1992 until you left in

18     August of 1993?

19        A.   As I testified earlier, I was destined for Sector North.  When I

20     went to Belgrade, I was told in June, late May -- no, it was in June that

21     I was deployed to Sector East because different things had happened

22     there.  There was ethnic cleansing, there was movement of population, and

23     a head of the political group was needed in that area.  I think I arrived

24     in Erdut around the 9th or the 10th of June, but before then I had very

25     little knowledge of what had transpired.  We only heard on the radio or

Page 7264

 1     through casual talks that there had been an expulsion from

 2     Nikolesko [phoen] or somewhere and other expulsions, but I had very

 3     little knowledge of what happened in Sector East before I was thrust into

 4     it in June 1992.

 5        Q.   And that lack of knowledge, did that change over the 14 months

 6     that you were in the sector?

 7        A.   No, because the expulsions continued, UNPROFOR was always called

 8     upon to help, and at the same time we were supposed to bring the two

 9     opposing factions together, but that was somehow pushed back further and

10     further because you had all these local domestic problems that had to be

11     dealt with.  You help to get people over into Osijek lest they be killed.

12     And it's not only the people who came begging to me taken over.

13     Sometimes the ministers even asked us to help get people out of the area

14     because they were connected somehow with them.

15        Q.   I'd now like to turn, if I may, to 65 ter number 5200.  You were

16     asked some questions by counsel about the perpetrator -- perpetrators of

17     crimes committed in Sector East against non-Serbs.  Based on your

18     experience and the information that you received, what categories did the

19     perpetrators fall in?

20        A.   The information I received indicated that they were clearly

21     Serbs.

22        Q.   And directing your attention to what is before us, 5200, this is

23     a document that was discussed with you -- take your time.  Okay.

24             And I note the last paragraph that was not discussed with you.

25             "It should be noted ..."

Page 7265

 1             Do you see that?

 2             "It should be noted that the milicija was either participants in

 3     these beatings and expulsions or stood idly by."

 4             Do you see that sentence?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What was the basis for that information, if you recall?

 7        A.   It was reports from CIVPOL.

 8        Q.   Is this the only instance in which it was reported to you that

 9     the milicija was participating in crimes against non-Serbs?

10        A.   No, it was not.

11        Q.   And you say towards the end, do you see that:

12             "However ..."

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   "However, for the most part I believe that these so-called

15     bandits are operating on the orders or implicit consent of the

16     authorities."

17             Why did you have that belief, that they were working under the

18     orders or implicit consent of the authorities?

19        A.   Because CIVPOL reported that even when perpetrators of crimes,

20     threats, and whatnot were in place before the police or -- they were not

21     apprehended and they were not rebuked.  They were allowed to go their

22     way.

23        Q.   Mrs. Negga, feel free to have some water if it will help.

24        A.   It's not the water.  There is a stream of air coming from the --

25     that's affecting me.

Page 7266

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What if we took the second break five minutes

 2     early, Mrs. Negga, would that --

 3             THE WITNESS:  I would be grateful.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's do that and come back at 12.40.

 5             Court adjourned.

 6             We'll wait for the witness to be escorted out.  Sorry.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Negga, I hope the situation improved on your

13     side of the courtroom.

14             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue, Ms. Biersay.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will be brief.  I will

17     be addressing just one more document and I'll be concluding re-direct.

18        Q.   Mrs. Negga, you were asked some questions today - and this is not

19     for you but just for the record - and it pertains to 65 ter number 5209.

20     I believe it appears at pages 33 through 34 and 35.  And you were read

21     part of this document and I'll just read a part of it now.

22             "Mr. Trosic endorsed that he would request from UNPROFOR the

23     return of 22 expellees to receive their statements and this pertains to

24     expellees from Tovarnik ..."

25             Do you recall those questions --

Page 7267

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   -- that was asked of you?

 3             And the issue here is that they were -- you were asked by counsel

 4     whether Mr. Tosic was saying:  I need to take statements from the

 5     individuals who were victims but how do you expect -- but these people

 6     have to come back to give their statements.  Do you recall those

 7     questions?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I'd like to now direct your attention to what has already been

10     admitted as P1381.1351.  Let me step back by saying that the date of the

11     document that was discussed with you previously I believe was 17 July

12     1992.  Now, turning our attention to this previously admitted exhibit

13     which you'll see is dated -- well, can you see it's dated 25 October

14     1992?  And it is from CIVPOL chief Sector East and it's going to CIVPOL

15     HQ Zagreb.  Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And if we could just go down so we can read the text on this

18     first page, it says:

19             "Enclosed please find a brief about Tovarnik expulsions of which

20     I believe you have a copy in your files.

21             "1. Position of the case.

22             "Nothing has been done by the court so far.  The prosecutor has

23     been visited four times by CIVPOL and CIVAFFAIRS but he keeps on saying

24     that the issue is not ready for the Prosecution and it may take up to six

25     months of which have already elapsed since the expulsions.  It seems they

Page 7268

 1     are buying time."

 2             Now, I'd now like to go to page 3, if I may.

 3             Now, this is dated 1 June 1992 regarding the expulsions of 22

 4     persons from Tovarnik, 23 to 24 May 1992, and it's from

 5     Cedric Thornberry.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And if we could just scroll down, and on the left-hand side it's

 8     written this is going to the chief of police of Vukovar.  Do you see

 9     that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'd like to go back up to the first -- to the paragraph and the

12     first line:

13             "I attach herewith an investigation file completed this day by

14     UNPROFOR Civil Police in regard to the above matter.  In the opinion of

15     Police Commissioner Johansen, the allegations confirmed therein provide a

16     basis for the successful prosecution of six persons in connection with

17     the above matter on a variety of serious charges ..."

18             And now I'd like to, if I may, go to page 14.  Could we go --

19     it's a very long document and I haven't printed it out.  Could we please

20     forward a few pages.  Actually, if you could just go back one, back to

21     page 14, we can take a look at that.  And this is being sent to

22     Thornberry; is that correct?  Can you see that?

23        A.   No, I can't.

24        Q.   In the very first line.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7269

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   And this lists, am I correct, the persons against whom they

 4     believe that there is sufficient evidence to prosecute?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what it says here.

 6        Q.   And if we could please finally go to page 6, to the very bottom

 7     of the page under "Action Taken."

 8             Now, this investigation file, according to this in small (b),

 9     indicates that, in fact, the investigators went to Klisa to get

10     statements from the expelled civilians.

11        A.   That's what is written here.  But I must say this report is dated

12     2 June.  I arrived in Erdut around the 9th or the 10th of June.

13        Q.   Correct.

14        A.   Yeah.

15        Q.   And so if, in fact, what Mr. Gosnell showed you dealt with 22

16     expellees from Tovarnik and this investigation file pertains to 22

17     expellees from Tovarnik, does it appear that, in fact, a full

18     investigation file was sent to the local authorities for prosecution of

19     perpetrators of that crime?

20        A.   It does.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time the Prosecution has no further

22     questions.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Mrs. Negga, this brings your testimony to an end.  We, once

25     again, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist the

Page 7270

 1     Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness and we wish you a safe

 2     journey home.  The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

 3     Thank you very much.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned for the week.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.51 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the day 19th of

 9                           August, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.