Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8229

 1                           Friday, 6 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, appearances for the Prosecution,

11     please.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  My name is

13     Lisa Biersay on behalf of the Prosecution, and I am here with my

14     colleague Muireann Dennehy as well as with our case manager

15     Thomas Laugel.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

18     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             Could the witness be brought in, please.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Loncar.  May I remind you that

23     you are still under oath.

24             Ms. Dennehy, please proceed.

25             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.


Page 8230

 1                           WITNESS:  MLADEN LONCAR [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examination by Ms. Dennehy: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good morning, Dr. Loncar.  Can you hear me in a language you

 5     understand?

 6        A.   Good morning.  Yes, I can hear you.

 7        Q.   Dr. Loncar, yesterday you told the Court that one of the

 8     prisoners was partly castrated and there were several other -- there was

 9     several other prisoners to whom you expected that there was sexual abuse

10     happening to them.  I would like to explore that topic with you this

11     morning a bit more.  You told the Court yesterday that there were

12     approximately 25 to 30 women housed at the stable with the other

13     prisoners.  What part of the stable were those women placed in?

14        A.   Looking from where I was, they were in a corner next to the

15     entrance.

16        Q.   And without naming any of the women in question, what used to

17     happen to some of the women in the evenings?

18        A.   Both I and others noticed that they were frequently being taken

19     out of the stable in the late afternoon or in the evening and they

20     wouldn't return for quite a while.  Sometimes they would stay away all

21     night.  And we suspected that this was not for purposes of interrogation,

22     but rather that they were being taken to the camp command or somewhere

23     else, we didn't know that, for sexual harassment.

24        Q.   And again, without naming any of the women in question, did you

25     later learn the place to where they were brought?

Page 8231

 1        A.   Yes.  When I saw the Begejci camp and remembered what life was

 2     like there, I made up my mind that in case I survived I would devote part

 3     of my work to the victims.  In that context, after the exchange, I

 4     started to provide psychosocial help to camp inmates, first and foremost,

 5     that was in Zagreb; and I also went to refugee centres and spoke to some

 6     women who survived.  They corroborated my suspicion and told me

 7     devastating stories.  Some women had been taken not only to the guards'

 8     dorms but also to hotels in Zrenjanin.  They felt like private

 9     prostitutes.  They were being forced not only to regular sexual

10     intercourse but also fellatio and other types of violence.

11        Q.   How far was Zrenjanin from the camp at Begejci?

12        A.   I couldn't tell you the exact distance in kilometres.  But it's

13     about a half-hour drive, thereabouts.

14        Q.   And how old were the women who were kept in Begejci, what were

15     the age range?

16        A.   There was a large age bracket.  There were women from 20 to some

17     70 or 80 years of age.  There were grannies from villages, and there was

18     also another group of women from 20- to about 40-odd years, that is,

19     women in the reproductive stage of their lives, as we say it in medicine,

20     it was mostly them who were taken away.

21        Q.   You've just mentioned that there were grannies from villages.

22     What villages did these women come from?

23        A.   Those women were from Tovarnik and other villages toward Ilok,

24     Lovas, Berak, also from Ilok, Sarin Grad, Bapska, that area.

25        Q.   And just to confirm for the Court, these villages that you've

Page 8232

 1     just named such as Tovarnik, Ilok, Bapska, where are those villages, in

 2     what country are those villages?

 3        A.   In the Republic of Croatia.

 4        Q.   I'd now like to show you a photograph that you'll see on the

 5     screen in front of you.

 6             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that tab 11, that is 65 ter 6415,

 7     and that's Exhibit P01641, be shown.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I saw this photograph in

 9     Zagreb.  These are women who were detained at Begejci camp.  Perhaps I

10     could tell you some more about this photograph.  This group of women was

11     kept at the central camp for a while, that is, in that stable.  And when

12     the Red Cross was supposed to arrive they were transferred to the command

13     building.  This was taken in that building, where those women were kept

14     for a while.

15             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, can I please -- I'd like the record

16     to reflect what the witness has just said in relation to the exhibit.

17        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Loncar.  I'd now like to have you look at another

18     document and that is 65 ter 857.  Now, before we discuss the document,

19     I'd like you to explain the visits of the Red Cross.  You've just

20     mentioned that the Red Cross -- before the Red Cross came, the women in

21     the previous photograph were moved to the command building.  How many

22     times did the Red Cross visit the camp while you were at Begejci?

23        A.   Twice while I was there.  The first time around they came

24     routinely, they made a list of us all, so that we felt safe to some

25     extent, at least I, because we had the feeling that we had been

Page 8233

 1     registered and that people knew of us.

 2             When they came for the first time, we gave our names and our

 3     profession.  The second time around they wanted to speak to me

 4     specifically.  I was the only medical doctor in the stable.  I then spoke

 5     to the ICRC representative whose mother tongue was French.  He was

 6     accompanied by a professional interpreter, and at one point he asked me

 7     what my expectations were.  And I answered that I expected to be

 8     exchanged.  And he said, "Relax your arms and raise your head."  And then

 9     I relaxed for a moment and I -- my concentration sank, I forgot that

10     there was an officer standing behind me, and I was asked by the ICRC man,

11     "Do you have anything else to say to me?"  And I said, "You know, they

12     took my car."  And the interpreter did a professional job, but the

13     officer behind me started swearing, cursing my Ustasha mother and what

14     have you.  And the interpreter continued to interpret.  And then I was in

15     terrible fear because I realised what had happened.  But then that guy

16     also became upset because he realised that he had threatened me in the

17     presence of an international and started saying -- explaining to that

18     ICRC man that nothing would happen to me and so on.

19             When these people left, the ICRC people, I never saw them again.

20        Q.   Dr. Loncar, how did the attitude of the camp guards change

21     towards the prisoners before the ICRC representative visited?

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it seems that there is an error in

24     translation.  The witness said that he never -- never saw his car.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you clarify with the witness, Ms. Dennehy.

Page 8234

 1             MS. DENNEHY:  Before I do so, Mr. President, I'm not quite clear

 2     on what counsel's objection to the translation is if --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What happened after the --

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is last sentence before the question, last

 5     sentence before the question.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What happened after the ICRC delegation left.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Maybe the witness could repeat whole -- the

 8     answer.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:

10        Q.   Dr. Loncar, there appears to be an issue in relation to part of

11     your previous answer and the interpretation of it.  Just to clarify that,

12     you said that the ICRC man said, "Do you have anything else to say to

13     me?"  And you responded, "You know they took my car."  Is it correct to

14     say that that is what you said to the ICRC representative?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  That's what I said, and at that point the officer,

16     whose presence I had forgotten and he was standing behind me, started

17     swearing, "Why are you saying that?"  But I didn't give you the entire

18     context.  The provincial SUP took my car.  That's where it was.  But I

19     didn't finish my sentence.

20             And after the exchange or after the departure of the ICRC I was

21     too scared to ever inquire about that again and I never got my car back.

22        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Loncar.  Now if I could put the question that I --

23     my last question to you again.  How did the attitude of the camp guards

24     change before the visits of the ICRC?

25        A.   The way of life improved somewhat on the occasion of the first

Page 8235

 1     ICRC visit.  I also mentioned yesterday that they started cutting our

 2     hair and shaving us.  One of the inmates was a barber and he cut our

 3     hair.  That was one thing.  Another thing, they were careful not to

 4     inflict any visible injuries on us, at least not on the uncovered parts

 5     of the body such as the face.  We, inmates, at least felt some -- felt

 6     safer psychologically once we had been registered.

 7        Q.   Now, Dr. Loncar, if I can ask you to look at the document on the

 8     screen in front of you.  Halfway down the first page in the English

 9     copy - and I believe it's the same in the B/C/S version - there is a

10     Zelimir Loncar, a psychiatrist in Vukovar Hospital mentioned.  Can you

11     please comment on whether you are of the view that that's the correct

12     name?

13        A.   I think that this is a mistake.  There is no such person as

14     Zelimir Loncar.  Probably they meant me, Mladen Loncar.  And ...

15        Q.   And in that same paragraph, the -- it says:

16             "In the village of Begejci ..."

17             And then it goes on to say:

18             "Reminiscent of World War II concentration camps, it had barbed

19     wire fences patrolled by armed guards, dogs and search lights ..."

20             What is that description referring to?

21        A.   That is a description of Begejci camp about which I spoke at the

22     time.

23        Q.   And, Dr. Loncar, why do you characterise Begejci camp as a

24     concentration camp?

25        A.   Why, Your Honours?  One reason is the things I went through.  At

Page 8236

 1     very moment I entered the camp, I saw a terrible scene that I had only

 2     seen in movies so far.  And then there was the organisation at the camp.

 3     In films I saw and in the little reading that I did about World War II

 4     camps, they were described almost in the identical manner.  Each room had

 5     a room monitor in charge of order and discipline.  They were inmates too.

 6     One's name was Mirko, the other's Krasnici.  On one occasion I was

 7     slapped on the face a couple of times and those room monitors were also

 8     beaten occasionally, not only we.  And it was the same in World War II.

 9             And there is also a legal aspect, and although I'm not a lawyer I

10     think I understand.  I requested to be tried, but the reply was that

11     there are no grounds for that.  So people who are being kept without any

12     legal grounds and deported based on the arbitrary decision of the police

13     and military authorities because they were of a different ethnicity, a

14     different religion, or had different political views.  Why am I

15     mentioning this latter moment?  Because there were also some Serb

16     inmates, because they held different political views.  That's why I

17     described this camp as a concentration camp.

18        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Loncar.

19             MS. DENNEHY:  And Mr. President, I'd like to now ask that 65 ter

20     857 be admitted into evidence.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2984, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MS. DENNEHY:

25        Q.   Dr. Loncar, how old was the oldest camp detainee as far as you

Page 8237

 1     are aware?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, the oldest detainee was about 80 years

 3     old.

 4        Q.   And how old was the youngest detainee?

 5        A.   I think that there was a boy there who was about 14 or 15 years

 6     old from a village between Vukovar and Ilok, I cannot remember exactly

 7     where.  I remember him distinctly because he was beaten terribly.  TV

 8     crews came a few times from Belgrade and Novi Sad.  An officer would

 9     stand behind the cameramen.  Then he'd give a sign to this young boy and

10     then he'd have to say that he had slaughtered people, that he had cut off

11     children's fingers to make necklaces out of them.  He recited this as if

12     it were a poem, that particular text.  That's why I remember that boy.

13        Q.   And did he cite that particular text under duress, do you know?

14        A.   Of course.  He was not of an age to have been able to do that and

15     he didn't do it in the first place.  In my view, he was even a

16     border-line case of mental retardation.  So he was forced to say whatever

17     he was told to say in order to be able to survive.

18             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 784 be shown.

19        Q.   Dr. Loncar, you'll shortly see another press article appear on

20     the screen in front of you.

21             MS. DENNEHY:  That's tab 1 of the Court's bundle.

22        Q.   Dr. Loncar, in the third bottom from the bottom of this text it

23     says:

24             "Mladen Loncar told at a news conference broadcast live on Zagreb

25     Radio that he saw at least one man die after being bruised and bloodied

Page 8238

 1     in a beating at a camp near Sremska Mitrovica ..."

 2             Is it correct to say that the camp was near Mitrovica?

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection, Mr. President.  This has happened many

 4     times and I haven't objected, but now I do object that this is leading.

 5     What's occurring is that a document is being put to the witness and then

 6     a confirmation is being sought.  We heard a long intervention from the

 7     Prosecution several weeks ago that that was inappropriate because it was

 8     leading and I agree with him.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  I can rephrase the question, Mr. President.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, rephrasing doesn't resolve the

12     issue.  The question should be asked first.  If the witness can't answer,

13     then of course refreshing is possible, but that should only be done after

14     the initial question is asked in a non-leading manner.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

16             MS. DENNEHY:  I'll disregard my question and ask another.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

18             MS. DENNEHY:

19        Q.   Dr. Loncar, the third paragraph from the bottom of this text

20     refers to comments that you made.  Who is the man that you refer to who

21     died?

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection, Mr. President.  We're doing -- my

23     learned friend is doing exactly the same thing that she did on the two

24     previous questions.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I agree with you, Mr. Gosnell.

Page 8239

 1             This is just doing in some particular detail exactly the same.

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, I am attempting to provide a

 3     foundation for the admission of this document.  I can select other parts

 4     of this document if the Defence would prefer.  The questions I'm asking

 5     have been covered in the witness's evidence in chief already.  I don't

 6     believe any of this is new information.  I'm simply attempting to provide

 7     a foundation for the admission of this document.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That is a document that is actually on the

 9     screen, I take it, yes?

10             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, that's correct.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, we have a witness on the stand who

13     is able, to a certain extent, to testify about the events.  So why would

14     we then need a news article that tells us that some people told about

15     this -- about these events?  It isn't helpful.  So I think -- I think

16     your attempts to get this document tendered are not very helpful.

17             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'll move on to another

18     document in that case.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 6413, that's

21     Exhibit P01639, page 2, be shown.

22        Q.   Dr. Loncar, do you recognise the photographs in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.  This is a photograph that was taken during the existence of

24     the Begejci camp.

25        Q.   And looking at the second photograph, that's the bottom

Page 8240

 1     photograph, who are the men in that photograph?

 2        A.   They're among the first inmates who were brought to the camp of

 3     Begejci, they're from Valpovo, and they were called the pioneer group.

 4     They wore JNA uniforms when they were brought to the camp so that they'd

 5     look like JNA soldiers.

 6        Q.   And what were those men required to do at the camp, at Begejci?

 7        A.   Since they were among the first to arrive, they were lying

 8     opposite me in the stable.  So I contacted them the most.  We could

 9     whisper and communicate that way.  They said that when they arrived they

10     were a small group, between 20 and 30 persons.  They were guarded by the

11     military police and they worked on building the camp in the following

12     way.  They were digging, then placing poles, putting barbed wire on these

13     poles.  As they said then, the guards told them that "more Ustashas would

14     come."

15             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, can I please ask that this -- that

16     Dr. Loncar's comments in relation to this exhibit be reflected on the

17     record.

18             May I now ask that tab 10, that is 65 ter 6414, be shown to the

19     witness.

20        Q.   Dr. Loncar, do you recognise this photograph in front of you?

21        A.   Yes.  On the drawing that I spoke about yesterday, if you

22     remember I marked the eves yesterday and we had a half-hour break I said

23     when we could take a walk during the day within that compound.  You can

24     see the wire here, it's a bit blurred, and from that photograph where

25     there are two women with white head scarves, between the two poles you

Page 8241

 1     can see a woman with a white scarf.

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that the 65 ter 6414 be admitted.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is this another document?

 4             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, this is a separate document from the one we

 5     saw.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2985, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:

10        Q.   Dr. Loncar, were there any foreign prisoners held at Begejci?

11        A.   Yes.  What I know is that there were two Romanians but not from

12     Vojvodina, they were from Romania itself.  They did not speak Croatian or

13     Serbian.  And also there were two younger men.  We think that they were

14     students.  We heard something like that, that they were from Sri Lanka.

15     Their skin was black and they were travelling through the former

16     Yugoslavia.

17        Q.   And what happened to those men from Sri Lanka?

18        A.   If we go back to what I said yesterday during my testimony, they

19     were lying at the very end, or rather, by the door of the stable.  And

20     they were exposed to very low temperatures there.  They come from such a

21     climate that they're not used to low temperatures.  On the other hand,

22     they were tortured in an exceptionally bad way.  I can describe one or

23     two things that happened that remain imprinted in my memory.  One was

24     that they beat them and made them sing songs.  They did not speak

25     Croatian or Serbian.  They didn't speak the language.  They didn't know

Page 8242

 1     the songs, and they were beaten terribly.  Then guards made them lie

 2     down.  They called out their names, and they beat them so badly that at

 3     one point both of them fell unconscious.  I remember that.  I was so

 4     scared because a guard hollered, "Come here, Doctor," and I thought that

 5     it was my turn to be beaten.  However, he ordered me, by using a swear

 6     word, to check whether, as he said, these monkeys were alive.  I leaned

 7     over, took their pulse.  Fortunately the men were alive and I said that

 8     they were alive, and he said, "Off you go, skedaddle."  They were beaten

 9     most terribly at that camp.  They stayed after I did.  I don't know what

10     happened to them.  I asked.  Allegedly their embassy sought them and I

11     don't know what happened to them ultimately.

12        Q.   Now, I'd now like to move on to your time after you left Begejci.

13     How long in total did you spend at the camp?

14        A.   Well, I said when I arrived and then I was exchanged on the 10th

15     of December, three days, then say until the 6th or 7th of

16     October [as interpreted] a bus came to the camp, and then they started

17     calling out names.  They called out my name too, and we went into a bus.

18     And they said, "You're going off for an exchange."

19        Q.   Dr. Loncar, I'd just like to clarify.  Did you say that you

20     stayed until the 6th or 7th of October or of another month?

21        A.   No, no, December.

22        Q.   And when you left Begejci on the 6th or 7th of December, where

23     did you go to?

24        A.   That bus drove us to Stajicevo camp.  The bus was almost full.

25     We were there for up to half an hour.  We did not enter the camp.  We

Page 8243

 1     didn't leave the bus.  But I saw from the window that it was identical or

 2     similar to the Begejci camp.  Dr. Emedi from Vukovar and a few other

 3     persons entered the bus and then we went on.

 4        Q.   And where were you brought to along with Dr. Emedi from Vukovar?

 5        A.   We were taken to Belgrade, to the military investigative prison.

 6     We arrived there.  They first brought us into a waiting room on the

 7     ground floor.  I didn't know these people, but then they started calling

 8     out our names and they took us to different cells.

 9        Q.   And when were you ultimately exchanged?

10        A.   The 10th of December, 1991.

11        Q.   And can you describe the days before your exchange on the 10th of

12     December?

13        A.   When we arrived, then they took us to different cells.  It was a

14     classical prison.  I remember that on that occasion I was in the same

15     cell as Dr. Njavro, who is deceased now, and also a technician from the

16     Vukovar Hospital --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the three of us were in that

19     room.  As far as I can remember, this was on the second or third floor of

20     the prison.  During my stay there, during those three days, they took us

21     out for an exchange every day and every time we'd run a gauntlet of the

22     military police, and I would be beaten with a truncheon every time, on

23     the head or my body.  And then it would turn out that for some reason the

24     exchange would not take place or they'd say, "Croatia doesn't want you,"

25     and they would return us to the prison again, the military investigative

Page 8244

 1     prison in Belgrade.  That was repeated on the following day as well and

 2     it was only on the third day that after running the gauntlet we boarded a

 3     bus and came to the military airport at Batajnica.  The bus was

 4     relatively close to the military plane.  It was a transporter plane.  So

 5     you'd enter from the back.  It wasn't a passenger plane, it was a

 6     transport plane.  So we'd run a police gauntlet there too, and I remember

 7     before boarding the plane the last time I was hit with a truncheon was on

 8     the head close to my ear.  I felt this terrible pain, and then we finally

 9     boarded the airplane.

10             I don't know who it was that was behind me then, but it was a

11     general who boarded the plane, the back door was closed, and we took off

12     for Zagreb.

13        Q.   What was the name of the general who boarded the plane with you?

14        A.   I didn't know his name then.  I knew the rank.  I've already said

15     that I did my military service in the former JNA, so I knew what ranks

16     were.  Inside he started giving people cigarettes and he started talking,

17     so we were relaxed.  We didn't have to keep our heads down any longer.  I

18     remembered his face, therefore, very well.  I saw him on television, on

19     Croatian television, later.  It was General Aleksandar Vasiljevic.

20        Q.   Dr. Loncar, I'd now like to very briefly discuss what you have

21     done since your release.  How did the detention change your professional

22     career path?

23        A.   Well, everything I lived through and everything I saw affected me

24     and it made me help these people, on the one hand by protecting human

25     rights and on the other hand by providing this kind of psychological and

Page 8245

 1     social assistance.  This interest turned out to be the right thing

 2     because no one really did anything with these victims, survivors,

 3     et cetera.  I started doing that immediately after the exchange with

 4     victims and survivors.  Spontaneously I started taking statements from

 5     them.  On the one hand I collected information about violations of

 6     international humanitarian law and human rights, but on the other hand it

 7     was therapeutical because a feeling of being a victim oneself is not very

 8     pleasant.  When people would write this down they would become witnesses

 9     too.  So a victim feels much better that way.  The victim no longer feels

10     rejected by society, punished by society, and then this feeling of guilt

11     that they had.  Somehow for the first time such a person would feel

12     socially useful after undergoing such traumatic experience.

13        Q.   What was the name of the organisation that you established

14     following your release from Begejci?

15        A.   Can I just answer in two sentences.  Since I met Dr. Njavro at

16     the military investigative prison and we were exchanged on the same day,

17     I assume that beforehand he knew the dean of the school of medicine of

18     Zagreb university, Professor Kostic.  So I became one of their associates

19     and I started working for them as a freelancer.  At the same time within

20     that department that was under the Ministry of Health at that time, I

21     established the medical centre for human rights.  It was attached to the

22     school of medicine of the University of Zagreb.

23        Q.   And how many patients has the centre of human rights treated

24     since its establishment?

25        A.   Well, some were treated on our premises, but we also went to


Page 8246

 1     refugee centres, between 3- to 5.000 persons were treated.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Loncar.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, that concludes my

 4     examination-in-chief.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Dennehy.

 6             Cross-examination, Mr. Gosnell.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Good morning,

 8     Your Honours.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

10        Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell.  I'll have a few questions for

13     you this morning.  If any of them are not clear, please let me know and

14     I'll do my best to assist you with that.  Do you understand?

15        A.   Thank you.

16        Q.   You testified that you received your last interrogation at the

17     Novi Sad SUP building on the 4th, 5th, or 6th of November, 1991, and

18     that's at transcript page 8204, and that you were then taken to Paragovo

19     in the area of Fruska Gora.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.  But yesterday --

21        Q.   And in what country is Paragovo?

22        A.   Paragovo is in the Republic of Serbia.

23        Q.   How far is that from Ilok, Paragovo?

24        A.   Well, I was never there but it's closer to Novi Sad and it's a

25     road that's on the Srem side.  Then I could put it in terms of time, say

Page 8247

 1     it's a half-hour drive, up to 45 minutes.  This would be a free estimate

 2     of mine.

 3        Q.   You said that during your time at Paragovo you were interrogated

 4     by three majors in the KOS.  Can you -- did they ever mention their names

 5     or did you hear their names being mentioned at any time during these

 6     interrogations?

 7        A.   No, they never mentioned their names.  I only knew the ranks

 8     because they wore uniforms with rank insignia that I know from when I did

 9     my military service in the JNA.  That's why I said three majors.  I don't

10     know the names.

11        Q.   And the facility at Paragovo, was it run by the military police?

12        A.   I have to be clear on this, our movement was restricted but, yes,

13     it was military police that guarded the facility.  They had "VP"

14     insignia.

15        Q.   And the officers who took you from the Novi Sad SUP to Paragovo,

16     were those police officers?  Were they military police?  What was their

17     affiliation or identity?

18        A.   No, they wore civilian clothes.  They didn't have any kind of

19     uniforms.  They had civilian clothes and a civilian car.  So they were

20     not military personnel.

21        Q.   And yesterday you described their affiliation as being to the

22     secret police.  Do I understand that to mean the Serbian DB?

23        A.   Yes.  I'm convinced that this was the case.  If you allow a short

24     digression, we learned about forensics at the faculty of medicine and we

25     knew what the crime police was doing because there was a co-operation in

Page 8248

 1     place.  I'm sure these people weren't from the crime police but from the

 2     secret police that collected intelligence, as it were.

 3        Q.   You said during your testimony yesterday at the provisional

 4     transcript, page 68, that one of these majors who was interrogating you

 5     at Paragovo told you that he had searched your family house.  Do I

 6     understand that to be a reference to your family house at Ilok?

 7        A.   Yes, Ilok.

 8        Q.   Did they at any time explain to you why they were interested in

 9     your family house in Ilok?

10        A.   No.  They weren't looking for anything particular.  I was telling

11     the truth all the time.  I was saying that I was first and foremost a

12     medical doctor, that I had nothing to do with any military activity, and

13     as I said yesterday and I can amend what I said, I said that I was

14     interrogated by a lieutenant who didn't beat me or anything, but apart

15     from saying that there were no elements for me to be tried, he also said

16     that I -- I was the leader of a unit bearing a name Croatian something.

17     And I replied, "No, I never did that."  Even when I served my compulsory

18     military service in the JNA, I was in the medical service.

19        Q.   Aside from the information that you received from the major, who

20     indicated that they had searched your family house in Ilok, did you ever

21     learn from any source the role that KOS may have had in the surrender of

22     Ilok and the subsequent departure of the majority -- the vast majority of

23     the civilian population?

24        A.   At that point, or rather, I'll provide an answer in two parts, if

25     I may.  One will refer to my detention at the camp and the other to some

Page 8249

 1     information I got later from some documents.  While I was at the camp,

 2     based on the questions they asked me, I concluded that they were

 3     interested in military matters and that their purpose was to take Ilok

 4     and the surrounding areas.  And that's how they targeted their questions,

 5     what I knew about Ilok and the surroundings.  And secondly, if the

 6     Trial Chamber cares to hear, I can add what I learned by investigating

 7     into human rights violations.

 8        Q.   No, Dr. Loncar.  I think we'll leave that aside.  But thank you

 9     for your answer.

10             Did the majors themselves -- or were they the only ones to beat

11     you or other prisoners?  Or did the military police also engage in

12     beatings at Paragovo?

13        A.   The military police also took part.  I remembered that because I

14     didn't expect such high-ranking officers to stoop so low.  That's how I

15     remember.

16        Q.   Did you see the three -- or did you yourself experience the

17     three -- any of the three majors ordering military policemen to beat you

18     or anyone else?

19        A.   No.  No such order was issued in my presence, but I was able to

20     tell from their actions that it didn't happen spontaneously.

21        Q.   Did the military police beat you or anyone else in the presence

22     of those majors as far as you know?

23        A.   Yes, there were such cases.

24        Q.   Did it happen to you?

25        A.   No, not to me.  In the presence of the majors, there was no one

Page 8250

 1     else present then.  I'm speaking about Paragovo now.

 2        Q.   And you mentioned that these majors slapped you.  Do I understand

 3     correctly that each of them slapped you?

 4        A.   Those two were there on the first and the second day.  And the

 5     third one, who allegedly searched my house, only insulted me and used

 6     rough language but didn't beat me.

 7        Q.   Did he threaten you, the third major?

 8        A.   Yes, between the lines there were threats.  The swear words also

 9     carried a threatening message.

10        Q.   Did he threaten your family?

11        A.   They inquired about my family.  Fortunately, though, my family

12     had left Ilok on a convoy on the 17th of October.  No one of my closest

13     family remained in Ilok.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have P2981, please, which is Prosecution

15     tab 12.

16        Q.   Doctor, this is the receipt that you looked at during your direct

17     examination - it's coming up on the screen in front of you - for

18     temporarily confiscated items.  And --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And if we could go to page 2 of the English but please leave page

21     1 of the B/C/S.  There are items there mentioned -- described as:

22             "Money vouchers.

23             "500.000 dinars - 1 voucher;

24             "100.000 dinars - 1 voucher;

25             "500 dinars - 1 voucher;

Page 8251

 1             "100 dinars - 1 voucher."

 2             What is a money voucher?

 3        A.   I must admit that my memory is failing a bit.  There was some

 4     vouchers in circulation but I don't know if they were for fuel or any

 5     other goods.  I -- I'm not sure what they were for.  They may have been

 6     for food, but they were vouchers.  As far as I remember - and I'm talking

 7     from memory now - that vouchers were issued instead of money for some

 8     goods that were in short supply.

 9        Q.   Did you receive those vouchers from the Ilok authorities while

10     you were there during that month of September 1991?

11        A.   No, no.  This was at Novi Sad.

12        Q.   And who do you think in Novi Sad gave you those vouchers?

13        A.   I could only have received them at work.  It may have been

14     through the union.  I don't really remember.  I know that those vouchers

15     weren't of any great value.

16        Q.   Do you remember that there was a work obligation programme in

17     effect in Ilok in September 1991 while you were there?

18        A.   No.  I don't know of that, not me personally.

19        Q.   Well, the local authorities -- well, I didn't ask you whether you

20     personally were a part of it.  I'm asking you whether there was such a

21     programme in existence, whether you had heard from anyone that there was

22     a work obligation programme in existence in Ilok in September 1991?

23        A.   Not as far as I know.

24        Q.   So the civilian authorities in Ilok did not take it upon

25     themselves, given the dire circumstances in the town, to organise the

Page 8252

 1     civilian population as needed to perform various tasks for the city, for

 2     the town?

 3        A.   I must admit that I didn't have close relations with the city

 4     authorities because my activities were mostly limited to the infirmary.

 5     If you're referring to the accommodation provided for displaced persons

 6     from the surrounding villages, I might be able to say something.  My

 7     parents told me that in our house we put up some five to ten people

 8     because we also had a basement, but I don't know about the rest.

 9        Q.   And who organised that?

10        A.   My parents never told me.  I think it was more or less

11     spontaneous, but these are my assumptions now.  People were called upon

12     to receive these displaced persons if they could and everybody was afraid

13     so they all spent the nights in basements.  That's what my parents told

14     me when they were still alive.

15        Q.   Did you ever receive the items back listed on this receipt in

16     front of you?  Did you receive those items back from the authorities of

17     the Begejci camp?

18        A.   I did sign a slip of paper, but the only thing I got back were my

19     ID, my driving licence, and the and the registration certificate for my

20     car.  I brought those back to Zagreb.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we please have Defence tab 3, 65 ter 05230.

22        Q.   While that's coming up, could I just ask you, Doctor, is it

23     correct that your family returned to their home in Ilok in 1999?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did they move back to the same house that they had occupied prior

Page 8253

 1     to October 1991?

 2        A.   If you're talking about my family, my brother-in-law was the

 3     first to go back.  Our family house and the houses of my two sisters and

 4     their families are on the same street, very close to each other.  So my

 5     brother-in-law went back and two elderly Serbian persons were there.  For

 6     a while they lived together.  But on one day after a certain while, I

 7     don't know how long, they just went away, just left.  But during that

 8     time they occupied the same house.

 9        Q.   And where were these elderly Serbian persons from?  Where did

10     they originate from, if you know?

11        A.   I'm not sure, but I think that they were from Western Slavonia.

12     That's the -- my conclusion from what my brother-in-law told me, but

13     that's an assumption of mine.

14        Q.   Now you've described your brother-in-law returning and also the

15     houses of your two sisters on the same street.  Do I understand correctly

16     then that we're dealing with three houses in total of your family that

17     your family returned to?

18        A.   Yes, but not all of them were in good enough state to live in,

19     and that especially applies to my parents' house; it was devastated.

20        Q.   And when you say "devastated," what precisely do you mean?

21        A.   I can describe it.  Doors and windows had been taken out, so you

22     couldn't move in and start living there immediately before making

23     repairs.

24        Q.   The house had not been burnt, had it?

25        A.   No.

Page 8254

 1        Q.   And what was the condition of the other two houses of your family

 2     members?

 3        A.   They were also damaged, but I must add that my parents had an old

 4     house and a newer house on the same plot.  The so-called -- it was a

 5     so-called old house where my parents lived and they went -- when -- they

 6     lived there when they had to leave Ilok.  Upon return, we started

 7     building, or rather, at some point we started building a new house, but

 8     that was unfit for living, as I described, because it was left without

 9     doors and windows.  And the old house was in such a poor state, so

10     devastated, that it had to be demolished.  It couldn't be repaired

11     because supporting walls had been so badly damaged.

12        Q.   Now, your parents' house, both the old house and this newer house

13     that you've just been describing, were they vacant upon your return --

14     or, sorry, upon your family's return, were they vacant or was there

15     someone there?

16        A.   Yes, they were vacant, the houses that belonged to my parents.

17        Q.   So the houses that were occupied, the two houses that were

18     occupied, were in better condition than the houses that were vacant;

19     correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could please turn to page 2 of the B/C/S of

22     the document in front of us.

23        Q.   Now, this, Doctor, is a document from the RSK dated the 15th of

24     September, 1992.  I don't say that you've seen this document.  I'm sure

25     you haven't.  But it's describing --

Page 8255

 1        A.   No, I didn't.

 2        Q.   But it's describing what may have been occurring, at least from a

 3     legal perspective, during your family's absence from Ilok.  And down at

 4     the bottom of the second paragraph we see an indication that:

 5             There are "no cases in which property confiscation has been

 6     pronounced as an additional sentence has been registered so far."

 7             And that's referring to property that has been left by refugees.

 8     And then if I could direct your attention to the middle of paragraph 3

 9     and if we could turn the page to page 2 of the English.  And it says:

10             "On the other hand, please do not be confused by the fact that a

11     certain number of individuals banished from the territory of the Republic

12     of Croatia has moved into buildings in the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

13     which had previously been abandoned for various reasons by their owners.

14     This measure - temporarily moving in, primarily has a humanitarian

15     aspect, without the right of the temporary inhabitants to treat the

16     property as their own."

17             Now, first of all, can I ask you:  Did the elderly Serbian

18     inhabitants that your family encountered upon returning to their houses,

19     did they ever indicate that they believed that they owned those houses?

20        A.   No.  My parents' house was unfit for living in, but in my

21     brother-in-law's house there were these people and I saw them.  They were

22     elderly, they had chickens, were on normal speaking terms with my

23     brother-in-law while they were -- during the short spell that they were

24     there, and they were saying that they would leave as soon as their

25     problem was resolved.  That's what my brother-in-law told me.  I don't

Page 8256

 1     know where they went.  I suppose that they returned to their own place.

 2        Q.   So they understood that they were there in your houses

 3     temporarily; correct?

 4        A.   That's what I understood.

 5             MR. GOSNELL:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D102, Your Honours.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:

 9        Q.   Now, I'd like to turn to what you were just testifying about this

10     morning, your departure from Batajnica airport.  And you said you

11     received a blow on the back of your head or somewhere on your head with a

12     baton and then there was a general, who you realised was present on the

13     plane or behind you.  Now, did this general observe you being struck on

14     the head with the baton?

15        A.   I'm certain that he had to see it because the distance wasn't

16     great.  I was in the last column to enter the plane and we ran this

17     gauntlet.  I of course felt my own pain, didn't feel that of others, but

18     others were beaten as well and there was no way of not seeing that.

19        Q.   Are you saying he would have seen the gauntlet as a whole in

20     operation as the prisoners boarded the plane?

21        A.   Yes, that's my opinion.  The gauntlet was reached from the bus to

22     the plane's tailgate.  I was the last in the column to board the plane

23     and at a point I saw this officer somewhere behind me, and only on board

24     the plane I saw his face and his rank.

25        Q.   And you've testified that you subsequently identified that

Page 8257

 1     individual as General Vasiljevic.  Did you hear General Vasiljevic tell

 2     any of the individuals in this gauntlet to stop doing what they were

 3     doing?

 4        A.   That officer, and I didn't know who he was at that moment, didn't

 5     say anything.  He just boarded the plane and then started talking to us

 6     as if nothing had ever happened.  Only later I found out after inquiring,

 7     and I also saw him on television, because we were exchanged for the

 8     so-called Labrador group in Zagreb.  That's what I know from the media.

 9     I didn't witness it.  That Labrador group was a KOS group.  According to

10     media reports they placed an explosive device by the entrance to the

11     Jewish community in Zagreb.  I repeat that I know all this from the

12     media.  And they confirmed that General Aleksandar Vasiljevic came to

13     exchange us for the Labrador group.

14        Q.   Did the KOS have a particularly negative reputation as far as you

15     know -- knew in 1991 for acts of brutality, sabotage, terrorism and so

16     forth?

17        A.   It was by no means popular as far as I know.

18        Q.   Well look at my question and see if you can answer that, did it

19     have a reputation for engaging in acts of terrorism, brutality, and so

20     forth?

21        A.   Well, yes, that's what I heard.  I cannot state with certainty

22     that they did engage in that, but I heard from one victim during my work

23     that the KOS in Western Slavonia dressed up in HV uniforms and brutally

24     raped a woman at -- and they also taped that so as to show how Croatian

25     soldiers were allegedly behaving, but now I'm relating a story that I

Page 8258

 1     heard.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 1D773, which is Prosecution tab --

 3     Defence tab 4, I believe.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

 5             MS. DENNEHY:  The Prosecution would object to the use of this

 6     exhibit, and my objections, I'm afraid, will have to take place outside

 7     of the witness's presence, given the nature of the objections.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm sorry to intervene,

10     but actually there shouldn't be any reason for the witness to leave and

11     there shouldn't be any reason for closed session either as long as we are

12     careful as to how we proceed.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, wouldn't we know that only after having

14     heard Ms. Dennehy's submissions?

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I suppose so, Mr. President.  But I would

16     just -- I suppose I would just ask my learned friend to re-consider

17     whether it's really necessary.

18             MS. DENNEHY:  The Prosecution has considered this point and I

19     would not like to go any further without the witness being taken from the

20     courtroom at this time.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Loncar, we will ask you to leave the

22     courtroom for a moment.  The usher will escort you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, I'm not sure that you also asked for


Page 8259

 1     closed session?

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  I haven't yet done so, but I would ask that we go

 3     into closed session, please.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Closed session, please.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8260











11 Pages 8260-8261 redacted. Private session.
















Page 8262

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.


Page 8263

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Dennehy:

 2        Q.   Dr. Loncar, my learned friend asked you about General Vasiljevic

 3     at Zagreb -- on the way to Zagreb and your transfer from Belgrade to

 4     Zagreb.  I'd like to ask you:  Did General Vasiljevic give you or any of

 5     the other prisoners anything while you were on the plane?

 6        A.   Yes.  On that plane he offered cigarettes to us.  At that time I

 7     used to smoke too.  Most of us were smokers, so I did take a cigarette

 8     from him.

 9        Q.   And how did he behave towards you and the other prisoners on the

10     plane?

11        A.   On the plane he was totally okay.  I cannot say that he was

12     either arrogant or -- how do I put this?  He talked with us normally.

13        Q.   Thank you, Dr. Loncar.

14             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, that concludes my re-examination.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you two

19     questions in order to clarify things.  During your testimony you

20     mentioned the fact that you tried to resuscitate or you tried to care for

21     the prisoners who were in the Begejci camp.  But when you gave us your CV

22     you told us that you were a psychiatrist and that you were specialising

23     in psychological traumatology.  But I would like to know the following:

24     Have you also studied general medicine?  Are you a general doctor?

25        A.   Your Honour, precisely.  First of all, I had to get a degree in


Page 8264

 1     general medicine, that is to say to be a general practitioner.  Then I

 2     had to do an internship for a year, that is to say to go through all the

 3     different clinics and then to pass a professional state examination in

 4     order to be able to work as a GP.  And then I did -- I did specialised

 5     training in psychiatry for three years.  So after getting my medical

 6     degree, I specialised in psychiatry for an additional three years.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  That's

 8     fantastic.

 9             I would like to ask you a second question.  When you were

10     arrested - and that took place in front of your friend's house, I think

11     this took place in Novi Sad - policemen asked you some questions.  They

12     wanted to know whether you had contacts with the Hungarian community.  Do

13     you know why they asked you that question?

14        A.   Your Honour, I can just speculate.  One of my assumptions as to

15     why they asked was that in Vojvodina there was a great deal of resistance

16     then to mobilisation.  This was among the ethnic minorities but also the

17     Serb population who didn't feel like going to war.  So was it along those

18     lines that they wanted to find something out?  I don't know.  But this

19     was my assumption, that that would be it.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine.  Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Loncar, this brings your testimony to an end.

22     We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to assist us.  You're now

23     released as a witness and we wish you a safe journey back home.  The

24     court usher will escort you out of the court.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


Page 8265

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.44 a.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of

 5                           September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.