Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8453

 1                           Wednesday, 11 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom, on both sides.

 7             Madam Registrar, may we have the appearances, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we, this time, have the appearances, please, starting with

12     the Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case

15     Manager, Thomas Laugel; legal intern, Kusbu Shahdadpuri.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Madam Registrar.  Is the witness

23     ready?

24             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes,

25     the witness is ready to start.


Page 8454

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me in a

 4     language you understand?  Can you?  Do you hear me in a language you

 5     understand?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you please tell us your name

 8     and your date of birth.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivan Gasparovic, born on the

10     2nd of April, 1942.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to make the solemn

12     declaration, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

13     must point out to you that by doing so, you expose yourself to the

14     penalties of perjury, should you give false or untruthful information to

15     the Tribunal.

16             May I now -- can I now ask you to make the solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  IVAN GASPAROVIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           [Witness testified via videolink]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gasparovic.  You may be seated.

23             Ms. Clanton, your witness.

24             MS. CLANTON:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning.

25                           Examination by Ms. Clanton:

Page 8455

 1        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, good morning.  Can you hear me, please?

 2        A.   I can hear you.

 3             MS. CLANTON:  I apologise, I'm not able to hear the English

 4     interpretation.  If we could pause for just one moment.

 5        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, do you recall giving a witness statement to

 6     representatives of the ICTY in May of this year?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I would like to ask for the Registrar's assistance, please, in

 9     providing you with 65 ter document 06439.  This is at tab 1.  This is a

10     witness statement dated the 8th of May, 2013.

11             Now if we could look at the English version first, please.  Can

12     you please look to the bottom left of the first page of the English.  And

13     then tell me, do you recognise the signature on that page?

14        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now if we could please turn to the next-to-last page

16     of the English, which is page 16, and if you could tell me if you

17     recognise the signature on this page which is near the middle, on the

18     right.

19        A.   Yes, I can recognise it.  It's mine.

20        Q.   And, Mr. Gasparovic, since the time that you signed this

21     statement in May, have you had an opportunity to read it and review it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now if I were to ask you the same questions today as you were

24     asked at the time that you gave the statement, would your answers be the

25     same?

Page 8456

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Gasparovic, now that you've taken the solemn

 3     declaration, do you affirm the accuracy and truthfulness of your

 4     statement?

 5        A.   I confirm that.

 6             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders

 7     65 ter 06439 into evidence, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P2990.

10             MS. CLANTON:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Gasparovic, we're speaking today through the video so if

12     you have any trouble hearing me, please ask for me to repeat.

13             As you've heard, your statement is now in evidence before the

14     Judges.  So with the short time we have today, I just want to ask you a

15     few questions on specific topics.  Do you understand me?

16        A.   I understand.

17        Q.   Now if I could ask for the Registrar's assistance, please, to

18     provide you with the B/C/S copy of your statement.  I would like to first

19     ask you about paragraph 14 of your statement.

20             Now, in paragraph 14, you describe removing the boots that you

21     were wearing because you learned about something that had happened in the

22     town of Lovas.  Can you tell the Chamber, please, what you heard had

23     happened in Lovas?

24        A.   We heard that the members of the so-called Territorial Defence

25     had killed quite a few civilians and made them go into a minefield.

Page 8457

 1        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, concerning this minefield, when did you receive

 2     this information?

 3        A.   It wasn't some information, proper information.  People had

 4     Motorolas, they heard us, and they warned us what would happen if Vukovar

 5     were to fall into enemy hands.

 6             MS. CLANTON:  Just one moment, please.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could the English -- could the English

 9     interpreter say a few words to test?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Testing, once again.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Once more, please.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Testing, once again.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, yes.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MS. CLANTON:

16        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, you just mentioned what had happened to civilians

17     in Lovas.  Other than the minefield incident, what other things did you

18     hear about what had happened to these people?

19        A.   Well, it's not that there was more than that, that something was

20     happening in Lovas.  And, of course, we were concerned and afraid.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Gasparovic, I want to change topics now and ask

22     you about the people who were in Vukovar on the 17th and

23     18th of November, 1991.  Can you provide the Chamber with an estimate of

24     approximately how many civilians you think were left in the town on the

25     17th and 18th of November, 1991?

Page 8458

 1        A.   I think - it's not an accurate figure - about 10.000.

 2        Q.   And on those days, can you tell us briefly what the atmosphere

 3     was like in Vukovar on the 17th and 18th of November?

 4        A.   The atmosphere was a worrisome one.  People were terrified.  They

 5     were in cellars, without water, electricity, and they had also heard

 6     about what happened to some people when the so-called liberators came.

 7     There was a lot of commotion.  People were saying that a Hungarian ship

 8     would come down there to the Danube; others, that they would go to the

 9     hospital.  So people were terrified.

10        Q.   Now, I'd like to turn to paragraph 28 of your statement, please.

11             In this paragraph, you've talked about your journey in a vehicle

12     from Brsadin to Dalj on the evening of the 18th of November, 1991.

13             Now, in this paragraph, you've said that the JNA organised your

14     transport in trucks.  And my question is:  While you were riding in these

15     trucks, what, if anything, were you able to see or observe?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have trouble

17     understanding the witness.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later on, they took us on trucks.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The sound is better now.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, there was a technical

21     problem.  Could you please repeat your answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I and some other people from

23     Vukovar were taken in military APCs.  It was the JNA.  They took us to a

24     village near Vukovar and then they took us to Dalj on trucks.  The trucks

25     were covered with tarpaulins.  As far as I could see, there were a lot of

Page 8459

 1     heavy weapons, tanks, cannons, along the way.  All of that was JNA.

 2             MS. CLANTON:

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Gasparovic, had you been to Dalj before the

 4     18th of November, 1991?

 5        A.   It wasn't that I was there only once.  I was there several times.

 6     I would pass by Dalj.  I wouldn't stop there.  For the most part, I would

 7     just pass by.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The next topic that I want to cover with you is your

 9     interrogation at the Red Cross building in Dalj.

10             In your statement, you said that when you arrived on the

11     18th of November, you were taken to a courtyard and you were beaten

12     there.  Can you describe for the Chamber your physical condition after

13     that beating?

14        A.   It was very nasty.  This Red Cross had a yard that was paved with

15     ordinary bricks, and we had to keep our hands on our heads.  People were

16     taken out.  They were beaten.  They were beaten unconscious, tortured.

17     They even made the beaten persons sing their songs, too.  So this was

18     physical and psychological mistreatment of us there.

19        Q.   And, Mr. Gasparovic, the mistreatment you've described and the

20     injuries that you received, were these visible injuries?

21        A.   Of course, it could be seen.  They hit me and I lost a few of my

22     teeth.  Then this other person attacked me with a bayonet.  So they would

23     say, Bring one person amongst us who had been beaten, and he had to say

24     whether somebody was a ZNG or whatever, and that was done on pain of

25     death.

Page 8460

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Gasparovic, in your statement, it says that you were

 2     interrogated by persons who were judges, lawyers, and JNA officers.  And

 3     in paragraph 39 of your statement, you mention that there was a lawyer

 4     whose name was Grujo Amidzic and that he witnessed these beatings in the

 5     courtyard.  That's paragraph 39.

 6             And my question for you is:  How do you know that Grujo Amidzic

 7     witnessed the beatings in the courtyard?

 8        A.   Grujo Amidzic had his law office in my neighbourhood where I

 9     lived, and we would see each other often.  We were detained in this place

10     that we called the torture place.  He came, he even shook hands with me,

11     but he didn't do anything in terms of saying that he knew me, that I

12     should be released and so on.  I don't know whether he took part in this.

13     I know that I saw him come there, but I don't know whether he was there

14     when these people were killed.  I cannot say that.

15        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, I'd like to change topics now and I want to move

16     on to what you experienced the next day at the Dalj commune building.

17     This is the 19th of November, 1991.  And in your statement - and this is

18     at paragraph 48 - you said that prisoners were killed on the afternoon of

19     that day.

20             While this was happening, where were you?

21        A.   That afternoon, about seven of us were taken down from that

22     so-called torture place and ...

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Osijek, are we back in business?

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we can hear you but

Page 8461

 1     we don't have the image.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please go to the toilet.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can you hear us?

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, we can.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Can we please ask for a

 6     five-minute adjournment?

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 8             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We are adjourned for five minutes.

10                           --- Break taken at 9.58 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.30 a.m.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Registrar in Osijek, can you hear and see

13     us?

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours.  With your

15     permission I'm not standing up.  We have the connection back and

16     everything seems to be on track.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  For the tapes, sorry, we need to take

18     breaks.  We still have a little bit more than one hour so I would suggest

19     we take a break at 11.30.

20             Ms. Clanton.

21             And, of course, if and when the witness needs a break, he will

22     just tell us and we will accommodate him.

23             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, can you hear me now?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8462

 1        Q.   Okay.  Before we had technical difficulties, I had asked you a

 2     question and I'm going to repeat it for you.

 3             What I want to talk about is in paragraph 48 of your statement.

 4     And in paragraph 48, you've described being at the Dalj commune building

 5     on the 19th of November, and I asked you where you were while prisoners

 6     were killed that afternoon.  And before we got cut off by the videolink,

 7     you mentioned that there was a group of you, and I would like for you to

 8     finish your answer, please, about where you were at that time, when the

 9     prisoners were being killed in the yard.

10        A.   On the previous day, we were taken to the ground floor and we

11     could see the yard from there.  There were seven to eight of us down

12     there, and we were able to see what was going on in the yard, where they

13     were torturing and killing our fellow villagers.

14        Q.   And just to make this clear for the record, you said you were

15     taken down to the ground floor.  Were you in a room or some sort of other

16     enclosure?

17        A.   Yes, it was also a room.  We were first in one room, then in

18     another.  One of the soldiers guarded us.  Don't know why.  So there was

19     some seven or eight of us, in fact.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now --

21        A.   And from that room, you could go upstairs.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Gasparovic, in your statement, you've

23     described that you were responsible for loading the bodies of some of the

24     people who had been killed into a truck late in the evening.

25             My question for you is:  If you could please explain for the

Page 8463

 1     Chamber your physical condition at the time that you were given this

 2     task.

 3        A.   I can say that during the night, at about 1.00 or 2.00 a.m., four

 4     or five of them wearing uniforms arrived and took us out.  I was in a

 5     poor physical state because, even back there in Vukovar, I was

 6     undernourished and now I was additionally beaten and exhausted.  And we

 7     had to load the dead bodies onto a FAP truck.  I didn't know that dead

 8     people could be so heavy.  I had known some of them from before, but

 9     others -- some others I couldn't recognise because they had been

10     disfigured.

11        Q.   And after you finished loading the bodies on the truck, did you

12     go with the bodies on the truck, or did you stay where you were?

13        A.   They tried to make us, because there were four or five of them, I

14     think.  They were armed and they said that we had to get on the truck.

15     But two of them said that the commander - don't know who - said that we

16     had to return.  And there was a -- there was light rain.  I had my hands

17     all bloody and then we returned.  I don't know where that truck took

18     those bodies.

19        Q.   And now, to change topics, I want to ask you a few questions

20     about the person named Jutro who you describe in your statement.

21             Now, you said that Jutro was someone who knew your daughter.  Can

22     you explain for the Chamber briefly how Jutro knew your daughter?

23        A.   I didn't know about my wife up until then.  When we were

24     separated at Luzac, that's in the outskirts, I don't know what happened

25     later.  They took her and other women to the movie theatre.  And there

Page 8464

 1     was a young man who mentioned my daughter and said, Oh, I know your

 2     daughter -- actually, he said that to her.  I know your daughter.  I

 3     see -- I go and see what -- how she faired.  And she also gave him some

 4     medication for me.  And I was contacted by him --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

 6             MS. CLANTON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, the interpreter was not able to hear the end of

 8     your last answer.  Could you repeat what you said after you mentioned

 9     that medication was provided for you.

10        A.   Yes, medication.  And then he told me that my wife had sent me

11     that, that there was no reason for me to worry, that she was there.

12     Later I learnt from my daughter - actually, that was years later - who

13     that young man called Jutro was, and she explained that before the war

14     she used to go to Dalj to the disco, and that's where she met him.  And

15     my nickname was Gaso, and they called her Gaso, too.  And that's how he

16     figured out who I was.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Gasparovic, if you know, can you tell the Chamber what

18     Jutro had said to your daughter about your whereabouts in Dalj.

19        A.   No, no.  That's not right.  She wasn't at Dalj anymore.  She was

20     elsewhere.  But in that conversation between my wife and that man, Jutro,

21     she said that her husband was there.  She mentioned my nickname, Gaso.

22     And then he said, Yo, I know your daughter.  Her nickname is Gaso too.

23     And she -- he said that I was at the torture place and that he was going

24     to see how I was.

25        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  And, Mr. Gasparovic, do you know


Page 8465

 1     what group or organisation Jutro belonged to?

 2        A.   Now, listen.  They always used to say Territorial Defence.  But

 3     what Territorial Defence is that?  What did they -- who did they have to

 4     defend themselves against?  They weren't attacked by Hungary.  And in

 5     Croatia, there was a TO, just like in Serbia, and that's what they called

 6     themselves, Territorial Defence.  And he was wearing a uniform, clearly.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And, Mr. Gasparovic, in your statement, you've said

 8     that some of the people who were killed in Dalj were found on

 9     agricultural property called Lovas farm.  Can you tell the Chamber, where

10     is Lovas farm?

11        A.   There's a place called Lovas, which is about 30 kilometres from

12     Vukovar, whereas this is right next to Borovo Selo.  There's a farm

13     that's called Lovas.  It's about 2 or 3 kilometres upstream from Dalj.

14     When I say "upstream," I mean the Danube.  And it's an agricultural farm.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gasparovic.  I have no further questions for you.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Clanton.

17             Cross-examination, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gasparovic.  My name is

21     Zoran Zivanovic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   I am Goran Hadzic's Defence attorney.

24             Let me first ask you to clarify a part of your statement.  And

25     I'm referring to paragraph 57.  The Registrar is going to show you.  Can

Page 8466

 1     you see it?

 2        A.   Paragraph 57.  Yes.

 3        Q.   I'm interested in the part about Dragutin Susto.  You said that

 4     he was a warehouse keeper at Vupik and that he was Goran Hadzic's boss.

 5        A.   That's what people were saying.  I know that -- that because

 6     Mr. Susto was a neighbour of mine.  He lived in the building across.  And

 7     he worked at Vupik's warehouse, and later I heard that Hadzic also worked

 8     there and that Susto was his boss.  If that's true or not, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Since you knew Susto and you know that he worked at Vupik, do you

10     know how large a company it was?

11        A.   It was a large company.  It had a number of organisational units,

12     such as Bobota and what do I know.

13        Q.   Do you happen to know what the name of Mr. Susto's organisational

14     unit was?

15        A.   I don't know.  I know it was a warehouse.  It may have been part

16     of the Bobota unit, but maybe not.  I was from Vukovar, but I didn't know

17     these things.

18        Q.   Let me try to remind you.  According to the information that I

19     have, he worked at OOUR Trgovina, which means commerce, and he worked on

20     flour and wine.  Did you ever hear anything like that from the context?

21        A.   No.  I know that he had -- he gave approval to hauliers who

22     transported goods to enter the premises.  But I don't know much more.  I

23     only heard that he was Goran Hadzic's boss.

24        Q.   Did you ever hear that Goran Hadzic worked for another

25     organisation that went about totally different business?

Page 8467

 1        A.   No.  I only know -- knew that he worked at Vupik.  At least I

 2     don't know -- but I don't know which organisational unit.

 3        Q.   According to the information I have, all Goran Hadzic's

 4     superiors -- or, rather, none of them was Dragutin Susto.  And according

 5     to what -- to my information, they didn't know each other.

 6        A.   I don't know that.  That's what people were saying later, that he

 7     was Hadzic's boss, and that's why Susto came to harm.  Whether that was

 8     ordered by Hadzic, I don't know.  I never saw Mr. Hadzic at Dalj.

 9        Q.   Excuse me, let us just try to be more precise for the record.

10             You said that people were talking about him being Hadzic's boss

11     and that possibly for that reason Susto came to harm.  Is that what you

12     said?

13        A.   That's exactly what I said.  That people were saying that

14     Mr. Susto was Mr. Hadzic's boss.  And, you know, sometimes people clash,

15     and Hadzic wanted to do something maybe and Susto didn't allow it.  But

16     you should ask them, really.

17        Q.   Thank you.  When you came to Dalj --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   -- where were you put up exactly?

20        A.   When we arrived at Dalj on those trucks, they -- we got off in

21     front of the Red Cross and then walked to the hangar at the railroad

22     station.  Then there were some police officers and said, There's no room

23     here.  And then we returned.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the last

25     sentence.

Page 8468

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Please repeat your last sentence.  It couldn't be heard well.

 3        A.   What about?  Here's how it went.  We arrived at the hangar at the

 4     railroad station, and then they said that there was no place there, and

 5     we had to return in that column, and I noticed that there were quite a

 6     number of us.  We were taken to the Red Cross yard, but whether all of us

 7     who had been outside entered is something I don't know.

 8        Q.   Can you now tell me, that Red Cross yard, you were put up in a

 9     building of sorts?

10        A.   No.  It was a yard.  There were walls around it, and at the

11     bottom of the yard, there was a small building where some of us were

12     taken to be questioned and searched.  And they said if they ever found

13     anything pointed or sharp on us, such as a razor blade or whatever, then

14     it -- our heads -- we would pay with our heads.  And we were taken in

15     small groups for interrogation.

16        Q.   In other words, you spent the night outdoors, in the yard, if I

17     understood you well?

18        A.   Not all night but part of that night.  They mistreated us and

19     then made people sing Serbian songs and possibly a Croatian patriotic

20     song now and then.  And they beat people and tortured, and many of us

21     came to harm.

22        Q.   Were you put up in a room at all?  I'm talking about you

23     personally.

24        A.   Well, what -- what does "put up" mean?

25             Here's how it was.  After the Red Cross, we were taken to the

Page 8469

 1     local commune but only learned that's what it was later.  And now how

 2     many of us there were, about 100 or so, in that local commune, I cannot

 3     know.  I was in no position to count.  It was near the Red Cross.

 4        Q.   When did that happen?

 5        A.   In the night of the 18th.  I mean -- referring to November.

 6        Q.   When -- or, rather, you mentioned the killing of Dragutin Susto,

 7     that he jumped out the window.  When did that happen?  According to your

 8     description, it's my impression that it happened around noon on the

 9     19th of November.

10        A.   Yes, thereabouts.  He had been mistreated outside and then they

11     took him indoors.  But at one point, he merely rose from his seat and

12     jumped out the window.  Then there was some soldiers outside who shot,

13     but I don't know if they shot him or he killed himself.

14        Q.   When you say that he jumped out the window, was that a window of

15     the local commune building?

16        A.   Yes.  The Red Cross doesn't have such a building.  Only later did

17     I learn that that building belonged to the local commune, although I had

18     passed through Dalj a thousand times but I never stopped.  That's why I

19     don't really know the place.  And it was the local commune, you know.

20        Q.   Did he jump from that building to the street?

21        A.   I don't know.  We were downstairs and we weren't free to move, so

22     I cannot say.  I only know that there was a toilet in the yard.

23        Q.   Did you see him jump out of that office?

24        A.   Well, office.  It was a hall.  And there was -- there was a table

25     at Mr. Glodic was sitting at that table.  He threatened us and boasted

Page 8470

 1     about having killed a Croatian journalist by the name of Penic.  And

 2     people -- other people would come there and look at us like animals

 3     and -- or as if we were animals and they threatened us and --

 4        Q.   I apologise.  My time is limited.

 5             My question was:  Did you see him jump out the window or not?

 6        A.   No, I didn't see the exact moment when he jumped.  There were a

 7     crowd of us, and I'm shorter than the others.  I heard some commotion and

 8     shooting, and then I heard that he had jumped.

 9        Q.   Did you see him being beaten before that?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   Where did that happen?

12        A.   In the yard, in the yard.  Because at the moment of the jump and

13     everything else, Mr. Pajic came, some Petar Pajic, that's what I learned

14     later.  He came with his sons, and then he was pointing at people and

15     then they would take those people away.  So I was in this room down there

16     when this other man jumped, whatever his name was.  So seven or eight of

17     us went down to the room that was below that floor, and then we didn't

18     dare move about.  There was a soldier guarding us there.

19        Q.   Actually, it's the same building that he jumped out of?

20        A.   The same one.  But from there, you'd go upstairs.

21        Q.   You could not tell whether he jumped into the yard or onto the

22     street?

23        A.   Yes.  I cannot tell.  We were brought during the night, into that

24     building, that is, sorry.

25        Q.   You see, I'm asking you this because we have this information

Page 8471

 1     that all of that happened in the morning.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see 1D783, please, but it should not be

 3     shown to the witness.  It should not be shown to the witness and to the

 4     public.  It is page -- page 3, fourth paragraph.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] On the basis of this, it seems that all of that

 6     happened in the morning.  Not only before midday but literally in the

 7     morning.  That is what our information says.

 8             Tell me, is that correct?

 9        A.   No.  Because, in the morning, I was still up there in that other

10     room.

11        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I'd like to ask you something else.  This

12     same information indicates to us - [In English] it is last page -

13     [Interpretation] that he jumped out onto the street, not into the yard.

14     But, okay, at any rate, you said that you didn't know where it was that

15     he jumped.

16             There's something else that I wanted to ask you now in relation

17     to your statement.  Among other things, you said that you recognised,

18     during the questioning in the Red Cross building -- that is paragraph 37

19     of your statement.  You can take a look at that.  You said that there you

20     recognised some judges from Vukovar who had some sort of caps over their

21     faces.  I assume that the caps were on their faces so that their faces

22     could not be recognised.

23        A.   Yes.  I can say yes.

24        Q.   Let me just tell you, and you say that you recognised the voice

25     of a man by the name of Slavoljub Sremac.

Page 8472

 1        A.   May I say something?

 2        Q.   Please go ahead.

 3        A.   There were some people in that room, officers or not, but I

 4     recognised the voice of Slavoljub Sremac.  Why?  Because for many years

 5     he kept his car in my father's garage in Vukovar so I talked to him

 6     often.  Gojic was also among these people.  He wore a uniform and he had

 7     the rank insignia of a major.

 8        Q.   Sorry.  You said that he had the same voice?  That seems to be

 9     omitted in our transcript.

10        A.   I said by the voice, that it may be Slavoljub Sremac.

11        Q.   Again, according to the information that we have here --

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is 1D786.  It should not be shown to the

13     witness and to the public.  And it is the last paragraph of this

14     document.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] At that time, the 18th of November, 18th,

16     19th of November, he was not in Dalj at all.  You said that perhaps this

17     was Slavoljub Sremac.  Is that your statement?

18        A.   I said perhaps it was him.  I would have recognised him had he

19     not had anything, yes.  Now I cannot say for sure whether it was him.

20        Q.   Thank you.  There's another thing that I wanted to examine with

21     you.  After you left Dalj - you said that that was on the

22     20th of November - you left and you went to Croatia.  Tell me, when did

23     you have some contacts from the Croat authorities, if you had such

24     contact at all, so that they could find out from you what happened in

25     Dalj, Vukovar, et cetera, during those days?

Page 8473

 1        A.   First of all, I did not leave Dalj on the 20th.  It was later.

 2     They took us to Novi Sad.

 3             Secondly, when I arrived, there was no contact with the Croat

 4     authorities because we couldn't have any.  Because we arrived in Croatia

 5     only through Bosnia, Bosanski Brod or Bosanski Samac, and then we went to

 6     Slavonski Brod.  That's the 22nd.

 7        Q.   I was probably unclear with my question.  I didn't mean whether

 8     you were in contact with the Croat authorities on the 20th or 22nd.  I'm

 9     speaking generally.  The period after your arrival in Croatia, do you

10     remember when you first had contact with the police, with the court, with

11     the army, anybody?  Did they ask you for any statements as to what was

12     happening in Vukovar and in Dalj?

13        A.   No, no.  When we were in Zagreb, when we arrived from

14     Slavonski Brod to Zagreb, then there were some volunteers, students,

15     because they knew that we had been in Dalj and that we arrived, and then

16     they asked us what we had seen and heard about Dalj and Vukovar.  Now as

17     for the rest in Croatia, I have no idea whatsoever.  So it was these

18     students who carried out this poll or whatever it was.  They asked us

19     questions.

20        Q.   Were you ever asked by the Croat police, for instance, to come in

21     and give a statement about that?

22        A.   Ah, that.  That was maybe in 1993.  I don't know.  Approximately.

23     When I came to Istria, then police inspectors came and asked me to give a

24     statement about what I had experienced in Vukovar and while I was

25     imprisoned.

Page 8474

 1        Q.   I assume that, then, you told them basically what you told us

 2     today and what you said to the OTP in your statement.

 3        A.   Well, look, later on, Major Grujic, who was whatever for these

 4     victims, he asked me what people wore - I don't know even know what I

 5     wore then.  It's been years - in order to identify victims.  And then

 6     they asked where they were and I said I don't know.  I had no way of

 7     knowing.  Maybe I just could have guessed where they may have been

 8     buried.

 9        Q.   Could you please take a look at paragraph 20 of your statement.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You said that you were present when a member of the national --

12        A.   Guards corps.

13        Q.   -- national guards corps, yes, was killed.  Tell me, did you tell

14     the policemen about that then or rather this Mr. Gruic when he was

15     questioning you?

16        A.   We told the inspectors.  I mean, I didn't know who, what.  But I

17     can say about this incident that occurred, it was in front of the railway

18     station in Vukovar, where the warehouse was, and an officer kept asking

19     for members of the ZNG, the HDZ, and the MUP to come out.  And then I

20     know that this woman went to this officer, this captain, and took him to

21     this Djuro Begovic.  But how could I know that it was Captain Radic when

22     I did not know him.  But one of the soldiers spoke to him, saying,

23     Captain Radic.  So he killed the man by firing at his head ...

24        Q.   Tell me, after this conversation in 1993, did you give any other

25     statements to the police, to the court, or the OTP?

Page 8475

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, inspectors came.  They introduced themselves.  I don't

 2     know what year it was.  In Osijek, there was Mr. Rozac [phoen] at the

 3     district court.  I think that I was there twice, gave a statement.  And

 4     then later to Mr. Cuco Pesenki [phoen] and Mr. Gojic in Vukovar, yes.

 5             Now, whether something was done about that, I don't know.  I

 6     imagined that The Hague investigators found those statements of mine and

 7     that is why they suggested I should be a witness.  I cannot invent

 8     anything.  But, after all, it's been many years since this incident.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gasparovic.  I have no further questions for you.

10        A.   You're welcome.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I've finished my cross-examination,

12     Mr. President.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

14             Ms. Clanton, anything in redirect?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I go to the toilet?

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned for a small moment.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A minute.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, the witness is back

19     in the videolink room.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             Ms. Clanton, you have anything in re-direct?

22             MS. CLANTON:  Just one question, Your Honour.

23                           Re-examination by Ms. Clanton

24        Q.   Mr. Gasparovic, I just want to clarify something that you said

25     when you were speaking to Defence counsel a moment ago.  And this is on


Page 8476

 1     transcript page 21, line 1.

 2             You mentioned Judge Slavoljub Sremac and that your family -- that

 3     a member of your family owned a garage where he left his car.  Who owned

 4     the garage?

 5        A.   The owner was Ivan Kamrla, so I was on good terms with

 6     Mr. Sremac.

 7        Q.   Do you have a familial relationship with Ivan Kamrla?

 8        A.   Yes.  I married his daughter.  His daughter is my wife.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gasparovic.

10             MS. CLANTON:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gasparovic, this is the end of your

13     testimony.  You are now released as a witness, and we thank you for

14     coming to Osijek to assist the Tribunal.  We wish you a safe journey

15     home.  Thank you very much.

16                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll take the break now and come back to have

18     Witness 168 on the stand.  Thank you.  Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Registrar, could we go into closed session,

22     please.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


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11 Pages 8477-8525 redacted. Closed session.
















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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             Court adjourned.

13                           ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

15                           September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.