Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8577

 1                           Tuesday, 17 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Good morning, Your Honours.

14             Lisa Biersay, on behalf of the Prosecution.  I'm here this

15     morning with our Case Manager, Thomas Laugel, and our intern,

16     Maggi Qerimi.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, with intern,

21     Emma Boland.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Before the witness is brought in, I have two short oral rulings.

24             On 20th of August, 2013, the Trial Chamber requested the

25     Prosecution to file a verification request with CLSS in relation to


Page 8578

 1     whether the word "economy" was contained within the audio recording of

 2     Exhibit P2798.  On the 12th of September the Prosecution informed the

 3     Chamber that revised version of transcript for this exhibit had been

 4     uploaded into e-court.

 5             Are there any objections from the Defence for the old version of

 6     transcript to be replaced by the revised version?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             The Chamber instructs the Registry to replace the current

10     transcript with the revised ones and to take all other necessary and

11     appropriate measures to implement this order.

12             Second one is as follows:  The Trial Chamber is seized of a

13     Defence request for order to redact certain portions of the transcript

14     4 September 2013 filed confidentially on 16th September 2013.  In this

15     request the Defence explains that it received Rule 65 ter document 1D656

16     from Serbia on the condition that it only be used in private session.

17     However, during the hearing of 4 September, the Defence inadvertently

18     used the document in public session.  The Defence therefore requests that

19     the relevant portion of transcript be made confidential.

20             I take it the Prosecution has no objection.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  None, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The request is hereby granted and the Registry

23     shall take all necessary and appropriate measures to implement this

24     decision.

25             The witness -- oh, yes, Ms. Biersay, sorry.


Page 8579

 1             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Your Honour, there are

 2     some procedural matters that with the Court's leave I'd like to address

 3     before the witness is brought in.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  The -- the first regards two new proposed exhibits

 6     that we'd like to add to our 65 ter exhibit list.  One of them is

 7     65 ter 6496.  The other is 6497.  And 6497 is a code sheet that contains

 8     some sensitive names and we've just put in person A, B, C, D just to

 9     perhaps assist us as we move through the testimony.

10             According to the Defence, they do not have an objection to that

11     one being added and used today.

12             So we'd ask that it be added to our 65 ter exhibit list.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No objection from the Defence.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Your Honours.  That's a correct

15     statement of our position.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  I thought I'd start with the one that we had

18     consensus about first.  The second one is 6497 --

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This request is granted.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Excuse me.

21             The second one is 6496 which, if it could assist the

22     Trial Chamber, I believe it's tab 14.  And today we would request that

23     none of the documents used with the witness be displayed publicly and

24     I've had a discussion with the relevant parties regarding that, but I

25     wanted to tell that to the Court.

Page 8580

 1             So tab 14 is the photograph, which assisted the witness in

 2     describing where she was located when she was interrogated and she

 3     identified it on late Sunday/Monday, is when we had the information.  And

 4     so we'd ask that it be added to assist her and the Chamber as she

 5     describes where she was.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is there an objection from the Defence?

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8             Very late disclosure to us of this.  We got it yesterday.  It's

 9     not vital from what I can see to the witness's testimony or her ability

10     to situate herself or her events, particularly given that her testimony

11     is being admitted pursuant to Rule 92 ter and her description of the

12     sequence of events does not appear to depend on any reference to the

13     photograph of the location.

14             So given the late disclosure and saying nothing at all about

15     admissibility which I would have something to say about, but leaving that

16     aside, we do oppose the request.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, apart from the late disclosure or

19     with the late disclosure what -- what would your disadvantage, what is

20     the harm done?

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Very hard to know, Mr.  President.  Very hard to

22     know.

23             I don't know how the witness will react.  And the disclosure, of

24     course, isn't just in relation to when the witness saw, recognised the

25     photograph.  I don't know when the photograph was taken, and I don't know

Page 8581

 1     why it wouldn't have been disclosed to us sometime between the date that

 2     it was taken and now.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The OTP request is denied.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             And I think --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's all?

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  -- that would conclude the preliminary matters that

 9     we have.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             The witness may be brought in.  The witness has protective

12     measures.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  That's correct, Your Honour.  We -- the witness has

14     been granted face, voice distortion, as well as pseudonym, and we do have

15     a pseudonym sheet --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  -- which is tab 1.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I just want to put on record that normally when

19     we bring the witness in, we go into closed session, but this has been

20     taken care of and we don't need to go into closed session.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Madam Witness.  Can you hear me in

24     a language you understand?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

Page 8582

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You are about to make the solemn declaration, by

 2     which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I must point out to

 3     you that by doing so, you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury,

 4     should you give false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.

 5             May I now ask you to make the solemn declaration.  The

 6     Court Usher will give you the text of it.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  GH-061

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Please be seated.

12             Madam Witness, as you have protective measures to shield your

13     identity from the public, we will not call you by your name.  We will

14     just say "Madam Witness."

15             MS. BIERSAY:  And the pseudonym sheet in this case, Your Honour,

16     is tab 1, 65 ter number 6491.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             You will see on the screen, Madam Witness, an information sheet

19     with your name and your date of birth.  Could you confirm that these data

20     are correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they're correct.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time we would tender -- we would tender the

24     exhibit under seal.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked, under seal.


Page 8583

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2995, under seal, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             Your witness, Ms. Biersay.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Examination by Ms. Biersay:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Madam Witness.  Can you hear me?  Are you

 7     comfortably seated where you are?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, thank you.

 9        Q.   Now as --

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, Your Honour, my microphone goes in and

11     out.  Let me just see if it's a wire connection.  [Microphone not

12     activated].

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             MS. BIERSAY:  Let's see if it stays on.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, it shouldn't, Ms. Biersay.  It's -- it's

16     about the protective measures.  When -- when the witness answers, you

17     should turn your microphone off.  And I think that -- that is what

18     happens.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, it's been doing it quite well.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

21             MS. BIERSAY:

22        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, did you provide a statement to the Tribunal

23     in 1996?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And that statement that you gave in 1996, did you review it in

Page 8584

 1     the English language?

 2        A.   I did review it, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, if we may, I'd like to go to tab 5, which is confidential.

 4     It's 65 ter number 2521.1.  And I'd like first to go to page 4.

 5             Now, directing your attention to the English one that's on the

 6     right side of the screen, may I ask you to look at that and tell me if

 7     you recognise it?

 8        A.   Yes, I do recognise it.

 9        Q.   And what do you recognise it to be?

10        A.   I recognise my name and surname and my signature.

11        Q.   And now -- now if we could go to the next page, please.

12             Also on the right side of the screen, do you recognise your name

13     at the bottom of that page?

14        A.   Of course.  I do.

15        Q.   And do you recognise it to be your name?

16        A.   Yes, it is my name.

17        Q.   And if we could now go, please, to page 14, e-court page 14, I

18     believe?

19             Now this is the last page of the statement.  Do you recognise

20     your signature also on this page?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Now, you gave the English statement in 1996.  Was that statement

23     later certified by a Tribunal officer in the year 2003?

24        A.   I think so, yes.

25        Q.   If we could now go to the B/C/S version.  Go to the -- the very

Page 8585

 1     last page of the B/C/S version, please.

 2             And I'm showing you something that's called -- it's a declaration

 3     regarding a 92 bis package.  Do you recognise your signature on that

 4     page?

 5        A.   Yes, I do recognise it.

 6        Q.   Could we now please go back to page 1 of the B/C/S.

 7             At the time that you -- your 1996 statement was certified, were

 8     you able to review it in your own language?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And when you reviewed it in your own language in 2003, you had

11     some corrections that you made; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Are your headphones slipping?  We'll help you.

14             Do they feel more secure now?

15        A.   It's fine.

16        Q.   If we could now go to page 15 in the English and page 12 in the

17     B/C/S, please.

18             Based on your review of the statement in your language, was this

19     addendum prepared, based on your corrections?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You were also able to review this package of yours, the addendum

22     and the 1996 statement.  You were able to review those yesterday and late

23     on Sunday; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, at this time I have a hard copy of

Page 8586

 1     the statement.  With the Court's permission and the permission of the

 2     Defence, I'd like to have Madam GH-061 have this at her fingertips, if

 3     need be.  It's the hard copy of her B/C/S statement.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:

 6        Q.   Now, if we could take a look at paragraph 7 of the statement

 7     itself.  And, again, in the English version, it begins -- there we go.

 8             I'd like to direct your attention to the B/C/S version.  And if

 9     we could move the -- expand the -- the page for the -- the B/C/S.

10             In paragraph 7, there is the date 1992.  Do you see that -- that

11     date?  One, two, three lines down.

12             Is that date correct?

13        A.   No, it is not correct.  It's supposed to be the 2nd of May, 1991.

14        Q.   And for the record, this is correctly reflected in the English

15     version.

16             I'd now like to direct your attention to paragraph 21.  And in

17     this paragraph, in two places, you describe a man who had a big knife.

18     The first time is, it begins in the -- in the English, it begins in the

19     third line towards the end.  And it reads -- it has two names and then it

20     reads, "A man who had a big knife."

21             Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   And at the -- towards the end of that -- the middle of that

24     paragraph, it reads:

25             "Water from the Danube and that there we would admit everything.

Page 8587

 1     All this time, the third man had a big knife and occasionally put the

 2     knife to my throat and threatened to kill me."

 3             Is it the same man who had the knife from the -- the very first

 4     sentence that we looked at to the middle of the sentence?  Is it the same

 5     person?  I don't want you to say the name but just to say whether or not

 6     it's the same person.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And to facilitate the -- the naming, if we could now switch to

 9     65 ter number 6497, which is tab 15.

10             Now, this is a code sheet that you have reviewed, and it has the

11     names of some individuals along with a code.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   And those names that you see on the very left, they all appear in

14     your statement; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, they do appear.

16        Q.   Now, could you tell us the code-name of the person who had a big

17     knife and occasionally would put the knife to your throat and threaten to

18     kill you?

19        A.   Yes.  That is Person B.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  And at this time, Your Honour, I'd move for the

21     admission of this code sheet which we will use again, I believe.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2996, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  And just in case the witness will need it, I would

Page 8588

 1     propose to give her a hard copy so that it's also at her fingertips.

 2             And I understand that all the exhibits used with the witness,

 3     unless otherwise stated, will be admitted under seal.

 4        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, you describe in paragraph 8 of your

 5     statement, which again is tab 5, 65 ter number 2521.1, and in -- in that

 6     paragraph -- actually, if we could look at paragraph 9 instead, please,

 7     it reads:

 8             "When the situation around Vukovar became critical ..."

 9             Could you tell us, if you remember, the approximate date, not

10     specifically a day but the general -- the approximate period of time when

11     that happened, when the situation around Vukovar was becoming critical.

12        A.   Well, it was around the middle of June -- no, sorry.  The month

13     of the September.  Sorry.

14        Q.   Now directing your attention to paragraph 14.

15             In this paragraph, you describe the morning after the JNA came.

16     And in that paragraph, it reads:

17             "The soldiers went into our houses and searched everything."

18             When you say "our houses," whose houses do you mean?

19        A.   Those were houses of Croatian inhabitants, and mainly non-Serb

20     houses.

21        Q.   And when you say "non-Serbs," what groups of people would that

22     cover?

23        A.   There were Hungarians in the village.  There were houses of

24     Herzegovinians, Bosnians, Dalmatians.  All the houses that were not Serb.

25     All non-Serb houses were inspected.

Page 8589

 1        Q.   In the same paragraph --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I noticed one error in transcript.  The

 4     witness said they possessed the houses.  Not that there were houses.  It

 5     is on line 20.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you clarify that with the witness,

 7     Ms. Biersay.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  One moment, Your Honours [Microphone not

 9     activated].

10        Q.   Madam Witness, could you describe what the JNA did regarding the

11     non-Serb houses.

12        A.   When they came into the village, exactly at 9.00 in the morning,

13     the infantry came in, and as they were coming in, they started coming

14     into non-Serb houses.  They searched them from roof to the basement, all

15     the rooms, all the cupboards, they raised beds in order to conduct the

16     search.  Then the order was given to hang out a white flag or a white

17     towel outside on the windows or on the door, and we who lived in those

18     houses had to tie a white band on the left arm.

19        Q.   Now also in that paragraph 14, it reads:

20             "After that there was an order for everyone to go to the local

21     community building."

22             When you say "everyone," what do you mean?

23        A.   When I say "everyone," that again relates to the non-Serb

24     population.  We had to carry some personal identification document, the

25     ID or the passport, and they were supposed to come and register us.

Page 8590

 1        Q.   Now also in that paragraph you describe that there was some kind

 2     of census based on the identification that you just mentioned; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   What happened to your identification?

 6        A.   I was identified at -- by the then-ID.  And a couple of days

 7     later, my passport was taken away.

 8        Q.   Also in that paragraph, it reads:

 9             "We were issued an authorisation letter allowing us to move

10     around the village."

11             Again, what do you mean by "we"?

12        A.   When I say "we," I again mean the non-Serb population.  We

13     received a white sheet of paper on which was written "certificate issued

14     to," name and surname, allowing him or her to move around certain

15     streets.  That means we didn't have complete freedom of movement.  We

16     couldn't go wherever we wanted.

17        Q.   When you were allowed to move around with this sheet, were you

18     able to move around by yourself?

19        A.   Of course not.  We were always escorted by two soldiers carrying

20     full gear, military equipment.

21        Q.   And did that full gear include any arms?

22        A.   Certainly.  Full combat gear, I mean to say there were rifles and

23     pistols.

24        Q.   Now moving to paragraph 16 of your statement.  In that paragraph,

25     you describe that sometime after the census, about 30 people were

Page 8591

 1     arrested and taken to the local community building for questioning.

 2             What ethnicity were these people that you describe there?

 3        A.   They were mostly Croat.

 4        Q.   In the same paragraph, you describe how ten of those who were

 5     arrested were expelled from the village with their families.  And that's

 6     towards the -- the end of that paragraph.

 7             Could you describe to the Trial Chamber why you would use the

 8     word "expelled"?

 9        A.   I used that word because I saw them carrying very few personal

10     belongings out of their houses in small plastic bags.  They were in

11     tears, and they went to a building where the local commune was, where a

12     small truck was already parked, belonging, again, to a Croatian man who

13     was there.  He was one of those being expelled from the village.

14             So I knew they were going to take them somewhere away from the

15     village.  They were very sad.  They were in tears.  They had very few

16     personal belongings on them.

17        Q.   Now, in paragraph 17, you describe how the soldiers who were

18     arriving in the village were stationed in the houses ... in the houses of

19     Croatians who were expelled.  And I don't want you to give any specific

20     names here, but could you tell us where did they go to be housed after

21     they ran out of available Croatian homes?

22        A.   Well, after they settled in their -- in those abandoned Croatian

23     houses, since there were no more houses left, they were being put up in

24     the former Dom Kulture, cultural hall.

25        Q.   Now this is something that I would like to spend some time on.

Page 8592

 1     This cultural hall and what you described throughout in your statement as

 2     the local community building, are they the same or are they different

 3     places?

 4        A.   It's the same building.  But on -- on the left side of that

 5     building there was a room housing the local commune office.  And the

 6     other part of the building was used as the cultural hall.

 7        Q.   How many storeys did this building have?

 8        A.   The cultural hall had a ground floor where there was a shop and a

 9     post office.  And the entrance was on the left side.  You had to go

10     upstairs.  And the first door on the right was the office of the local

11     commune.  And if you went on, the next entrance was to the cultural hall.

12        Q.   The situation that you just described and the use of the

13     building, was that the situation before the war or during the war?

14        A.   Before the war, inside that building, there was the office of the

15     local commune and the cultural hall.  During the war, these premises were

16     used for a different purpose.

17        Q.   And what purpose was that?

18        A.   The room that used to be the office of the local commune was

19     first used for interrogations and as the headquarters of their

20     Territorial Defence.  That's what they called it.  Whereas the cultural

21     hall was first used as an improvised prison to hold people who were

22     interrogated during eight or ten days and were forcibly detained there.

23     And later on it was used as accommodation for soldiers whom they didn't

24     have anywhere else to put up before they were sent to other destinations.

25        Q.   You described the two floors and the -- the room on the -- the

Page 8593

 1     left.  Were there any structures in the back of the two-storey building?

 2        A.   Yes.  Behind that building, there was an out-structure there,

 3     leaning on the building that was used to store firewood for the local

 4     commune office.  That was during the war -- that was before the war.

 5     During the war, they used it to lock up people.  Croats.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15        Q.   Madam Witness, I'd ask you to look at the code sheet that's

16     before you.  And the -- the code that we're using for the village where

17     you were is simply "the village."  But I understand -- I understand what

18     you were saying.  So in the village where you were, could you -- can you

19     see on this aerial photograph which was taken well after the war, of

20     course, can you see the place that you describe as being the TO

21     headquarters which was also the local community centre?

22        A.   Yes, I can.

23        Q.   Is this a -- can you see it in this format, or does it need to be

24     enlarged a little bit?

25        A.   This is enough for me.  I recognise the building.

Page 8594

 1        Q.   So I'm going to ask for some assistance in a moment so that you

 2     can use the -- the pen that's on your monitor before you to -- to circle

 3     that area.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And that has been marked with a red pen; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Where -- can you, on this map, see where you lived with your

 8     mother and husband as described in your statement?  And if we could

 9     change the colour of the pen, it would save us from adding numbers.

10        A.   Yes, I can.

11        Q.   Could you also circle that, please.

12        A.   That would be it.

13        Q.   And I note for the record that that is in the colour green.

14             And is there -- are there any churches, or were there at the time

15     any churches near these two places?

16        A.   Yes.  There was an Orthodox and a Catholic church in the village.

17        Q.   Is it possible for you to circle the Orthodox church, please.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And for the record, I'll note that it is a blue colour.  Do we

20     have another colour available?  The last one, I think.

21             And now, Madam Witness, did the TO office which is now circled

22     red, was that moved to another location at some point in 1991?

23        A.   Yes.  Towards the end of 1991, they moved to a different place

24     close to the Orthodox church.

25        Q.   And could you please circle that location for us.

Page 8595

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  And for the record, that is now circled in black.

 3             At this time, we'd ask for the admission of the colour-marked

 4     version of this aerial photograph.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2997, under seal, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MS. BIERSAY:

 9        Q.   Now, the place that is circled in red, were you interrogated

10     there?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was your husband interrogated there?

13        A.   Yes, he was interrogated as well.

14        Q.   Was he imprisoned there?

15        A.   Yes, he was.

16        Q.   What weapons, if any, were ever stationed in front of the TO

17     headquarters that you circled red?

18        A.   On one occasion, I saw some cannons placed there, towards the

19     side, as far as I was able to see in my fear.  They had two big wheels.

20     The guns were trained upwards at the sky, about a metre and a half long.

21     There were ten to 15 of them.

22        Q.   Do you recall approximately when that was?

23        A.   Sometime in the beginning of November, just before the largest

24     attack at Vukovar.

25        Q.   You previously described that non-Serbs had to have an

Page 8596

 1     authorisation to move on specific roads in the village.  Could you

 2     describe the curfew that was imposed?

 3        A.   Curfew was imposed.  From 5.00 in the afternoon, it was forbidden

 4     to move anywhere outside of your home.  The houses had -- had to be kept

 5     dark.  We had no electricity, no water.  And not even candlelight was

 6     allowed to penetrate from the windows.

 7        Q.   What time, if you recall, did the curfew end?

 8        A.   The curfew was over around 7.00 in the morning.

 9        Q.   Where -- in the house where you were staying, and you describe it

10     in your statement being your mother's house, where was the toilet in the

11     house?

12        A.   The toilet - that is to say the bathroom - could be accessed from

13     outside because that was a house built in the German style, and you could

14     get into the bathroom from the yard, from the outside.

15        Q.   And during the curfew, were you able to access the bathroom by

16     going outside?

17        A.   During the curfew, we were not allowed to move at all.  And as

18     for our bathroom needs, we had to do that in one separate room.  Around

19     5.00 they would bring a bucket, and it was there, between 5.00 p.m. and

20     7.00 a.m., that we had to go to the bathroom.

21        Q.   Now, you -- you said that there was no water.  How were you able

22     to clean yourself, if at all, during this period?

23        A.   We did with very little water.  Just for basic, light washing in

24     our private parts and to wash our faces.

25        Q.   I'd like to discuss with you paragraph 22 and after in your

Page 8597

 1     statement.

 2             Towards the end of paragraph 22 and elsewhere, you describe

 3     forced labour that your husband, you, and other non-Serbs had to perform.

 4     How did you receive the assignments for this forced labour?

 5        A.   In the the morning, at 7.00, we had to report every day to the

 6     local office, that is to say their Territorial Defence.  We received

 7     there each day an assignment, where, to which locations we would go to

 8     work, and two or three soldiers in full combat gear would escort us to

 9     those locations.

10        Q.   Perhaps you've answered the -- the question, but I will ask you:

11     Why do you use the term "forced labour" to describe this work that you

12     were doing?

13        A.   I'm talking about forced labour because I had to go to work

14     mainly for Serbs, both my husband and I and all the Croats who were

15     there.  We had to go and do our agricultural work for the Serbs.  We had

16     to clean the houses that had been devastated - all of them were Croatian

17     houses - and it was forced because we had guns trained at us all the

18     time.

19        Q.   The translation that I received, it reads:

20             "We had to clean the houses that had been devastated - all of

21     them were Croatian house -- houses - and it was forced ..."

22             Is that accurate?

23        A.   Yes, it's accurate.

24        Q.   Would you have to report to the TO office again later that day,

25     after reporting in the morning at 7.00 to get assignments?

Page 8598

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  That's leading, Mr. President.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  It's a yes or no question.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  It doesn't matter if it's yes or no, Mr. President.

 4     It's clearly a leading question.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  I can rephrase.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:

 8        Q.   How many times a day did you have to report to the TO

 9     headquarters?

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, it's still leading.  And I'm well

11     aware of the content of the witness's 92 ter statement, as is my friend,

12     otherwise I wouldn't be objecting if this was in the statement.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  The purpose is to clarify

14     with the witness the statement by -- she's described going to the TO

15     office to report and I'm asking simply how many times she had to do that.

16     I think there's nothing improper about asking for additional information.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, for starters, Mr. President, it could simply

18     be:  Did you ever go again to the TO office.  And then go from there.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I'm happy to use that question.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I must say, as the reporting as such as in the

21     statement, I don't see a problem with a follow-up question, Mr. Gosnell.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, the problem, Mr. President, is that there's

23     no reference to the TO office in the witness's statement much less having

24     gone once or several times.  So that's why I'm sensitive, and perhaps

25     oversensitive, but, yes, I am sensitive to this issue for this reason.

Page 8599

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  If we don't have the place of reporting,

 2     Ms. Biersay, perhaps you could ask where she had to go, where the witness

 3     had to go to report.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Madam Witness, could you describe to the Trial Chamber where you

 6     had to report to get your forced labour assignments?

 7        A.   I had to report at the building of the local office where their

 8     Territorial Defence was in the morning, at 7.00, and when I finished work

 9     in the afternoon at 5.00.

10        Q.   If the curfew started at 5.00 and you had to report at the

11     building at -- also at 5.00, how did the non-Serbs manage to do that?

12        A.   Non-Serbs did not have the kind of torture that we did.  Those

13     who stayed behind communicated by walkie-talkies.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, Madam Witness, I think my question was not clear.

15             How did you make it from the -- the local office where the TO

16     was, where you had to report at 5.00, and at the same time the curfew

17     started at 5.00.  How did you manage to honour the curfew?

18        A.   Well, we would come five or ten minutes before 5.00 to report and

19     fortunately we didn't live far away.  My house was, say, the eighth house

20     starting from that building where we had to report.  So we would hurry.

21     Sometimes we would even run home in order to make it on time before the

22     curfew would start.

23        Q.   I'd now like to turn your attention to paragraphs 19 and 20 of

24     your statement.  And in that paragraph, you describe a short dirty man

25     wearing a JNA uniform who was insulting -- who said insulting things to


Page 8600

 1     you and swore at you.

 2             Do you recall that?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And is it the same person that's mentioned in paragraphs 19 and

 5     20?

 6        A.   Yes, the same person.

 7        Q.   And could you please tell the -- the Trial Chamber what he said

 8     to you, if you recall.

 9        A.   Well, I do recall, but I find it a bit embarrassing to repeat

10     those words.  I do apologise because I'm going to be very vulgar now but

11     I'm going tell you.  He said, I fuck your Ustasha mother.  What are you

12     doing there.  We wanted to kill some Ustashas last night who were locked

13     up in that small room.  But these others, sort of their colleague, did

14     not let them do that.  And he insulted me.  He swore at me.  Cursed my

15     Ustasha mother that we would pay for all of our misdeeds and ...

16        Q.   At this time, may we please go into closed session.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Closed session, please.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Private session.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8601











11 Pages 8601-8606 redacted. Private session.
















Page 8607

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MS. BIERSAY:

25        Q.   Now, Madam Witness, you've looked at your 1996 statement that was

Page 8608

 1     certified in 2003 and the corrections that you made in 2003; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   And, in addition, you've also made more -- a few more corrections

 4     today; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   If we consider all of the corrections in conjunction with your

 7     statement, would your statement be accurate?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Would it also be truthful?

10        A.   Yes, it is truthful.

11        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would you answer

12     them, in substance --

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8609











11 Pages 8609-8610 redacted. Private session.
















Page 8611

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             Court adjourned.

15                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ten extra minute, Ms. Biersay.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  You've read my mind, Mr.  President.  Yes, I'm over

19     my time, and so with the Court's permission I would like to have ten to

20     15 more minutes with the witness.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ten to 15.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  Fifteen.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, that's what I understood.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  And I should assure the Court that this is our own

25     witness for today.

Page 8612

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Request is granted.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Biersay.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             At this time could we please go into private session?

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8613

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:

 6        Q.   At some point in January of 1992, you left -- you escaped from

 7     the village; is that correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Did your mother stay behind?

10        A.   Yes, she stayed behind.

11        Q.   Could you briefly describe to the Trial Chamber how she was

12     treated and what happened to her after you left -- you escaped the

13     village.

14        A.   After our escape from the village, my mother stayed behind.  A

15     month later, they drove her out.  And, in the meantime, she was saying

16     and I heard also from other neighbours who had stayed behind in the

17     village, Croat women, that she had been taken to an execution three

18     times, and she was asked, Where is your slut daughter, the Ustasha woman

19     who ran away with her husband.  Of course, my mother didn't know where we

20     were and that happened three times.

21             After the third time, she was driven out of the village.  A month

22     later, my mother appeared in Zagreb, carrying only a blanket under her

23     arm.

24        Q.   I'd now like to turn your attention to paragraph 22 of your

25     statement.  And in that paragraph, you describe that there was a Serb


Page 8614

 1     from the village - please don't say his name - who participated in

 2     questioning you.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And he is someone you knew from before; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  He was the father of my best friend.

 6        Q.   And this questioning, where did it take place?

 7        A.   It took place in the local commune office, the room they used at

 8     the time as the headquarters of their Territorial Defence.

 9        Q.   And why is it that you say they use that room as their

10     Territorial Defence?  Why do you conclude that?

11        A.   Because interrogations took place mainly in that room, the

12     questioning of all non-Serbs who had stayed behind and where we had to

13     report twice a day at 7.00 in the morning and 5.00 in the afternoon.

14     There, we would get our work assignments.  And, in the evening, we had to

15     report so that they would know that we had not gone anywhere, that we

16     were going home.

17        Q.   And why do you call it "Territorial Defence" as opposed to

18     something else?

19        A.   Because that's what they said.  That's what they called it.  When

20     we received orders, we were told, You have to report to the

21     Territorial Defence in the room which used to house the local commune

22     office.

23        Q.   I'd now like to talk about the impact that these events had on

24     you.

25             And, firstly, between October of 1991 and January of 1992, did

Page 8615

 1     these events have an impact on your weight?

 2        A.   Yes.  I lost weight.  I lost 16 kilos.

 3        Q.   And could you describe to the Trial Chamber what other symptoms

 4     and illnesses you developed after these events that you described both in

 5     open and in closed session.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8             In October or November, I had hyperventilation, tachycardia.  I

 9     felt I was suffocating.  I was shaking.  I had a feeling of panic that I

10     could not control.  These panic attacks would set on unexpectedly at

11     different times and I never knew how longer they would last.  I would

12     call them attack, fits.  I didn't know how long they would last.

13     Hyperventilation, shaking all over my body that I could not control or

14     stop.

15        Q.   Did you ever consult with any doctors about the conditions that

16     you suffered from after these events?

17        A.   During the war while I was there, no.  But after the war, I went

18     to see a doctor.  Excuse me.  At first, the symptoms were not identified

19     properly.  They kept sending me for X-rays of my heart and lungs.

20     However, one doctor whom I knew, who knew me from before, recognised the

21     symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, and his diagnosis was panic

22     disorder.

23        Q.   Could you describe to the Trial Chamber what effect these events

24     had on your marriage.

25        A.   Well, the consequences on my marriage were that my husband and I


Page 8616

 1     got a divorce.  We haven't lived together since 1997.  We have not

 2     existed as a couple, as a married couple, since 1997.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, I have no further questions,

 4     Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

 6             Cross-examination, Mr. Gosnell.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning,

 8     Your Honours.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

10        Q.   Good morning, Madam Witness.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell, and I represent Mr. Hadzic in

13     these proceedings.  I'll ask you a few questions today.  If any of my

14     questions aren't clear, please let me know and I'll do my best to assist

15     you.

16             Do you understand that?

17        A.   Yes, I understand.

18        Q.   And also by way of preface I want to let you know that I won't be

19     asking you any questions about the violence that you suffered, but I will

20     be asking you about some peripheral details that may be important to us

21     here in this case, so I just wanted to let you know that from the outset.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have Prosecution tab 7 which is

23     65 ter 4491.  And I am afraid, out of an abundance of caution, it would

24     be best to go into private session.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.


Page 8617

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8618











11 Page 8618 redacted. Private session.















Page 8619

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

22             MS. BIERSAY:  [Microphone not activated] Excuse me, I've lost my

23     mike.

24             Just for the record, could we have the reference to the village

25     redacted.  I believe it was said in open session.


Page 8620

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, indeed, we're in open session.

 2             Thank you, Ms. Biersay.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  I apologise.

 4        Q.   So without mentioning the name of the village, as I wrongly did,

 5     were they using the village as a -- a way station, so to speak, on the

 6     way to the front line in Vukovar?

 7        A.   Yes.  I state that with full responsibility.

 8        Q.   And was there a JNA headquarters in the town that you observed?

 9        A.   Well, to tell you the truth, they had a certain number of people

10     in the village whom I know to have directed some forces as to where they

11     should go, but I don't know anymore.

12        Q.   Well, let come -- let's carry on with your statement, and I'll

13     come back to a few more questions about this.

14             If we could look at paragraph 18 of your statement,

15     Madam Witness, you'll see that there's a reference there to Persons B

16     and C, and we won't mention their names.  But Persons B and C are

17     mentioned there as taking part in your first questioning.

18             Now, can I, first of all, ask you was anyone else present during

19     that first questioning or interrogation?

20        A.   No.  During the first interrogation, I was alone in the room with

21     Person B and Person C.

22        Q.   And now if we can look, please, at paragraph 21.  And this,

23     Madam, is where you describe your second questioning which, as I

24     understand it, and perhaps I can ask you, occurs at 5.00 on the same day

25     as the first questioning; is that correct?

Page 8621

 1        A.   We.

 2        Q.   And you say there at paragraph 21:

 3             "There were some six of them sitting there.  Person B, Person C,

 4     a man who had a big knife, and two or three others.  While they

 5     questioned me, another man came behind my back.  I did not know him."

 6             Now, it seems from that sentence that the man with the big knife

 7     is not the same as Person B, but I understand that from your earlier

 8     testimony that that's not correct.  Am I right in understanding that?

 9     Your testimony is that Person B is the person with the knife.

10        A.   Yes.  Person B, who was present the first time at the

11     interrogation, there were Person B and Person C at that first

12     interrogation, Person B is the one who had that knife.

13        Q.   And if we could now please turn to the addendum in the statement

14     which, in English, is the second-last page.

15             And we see here in your addendum, you refer to paragraph 21, and

16     you describe the content of what is said to you, and I don't want to go

17     back to that.  But then here's what you say in the last two sentences:

18             "Some of the soldiers were in camouflage uniforms and some in JNA

19     uniforms.  They were all Serbs, but not local ones; they spoke a drawling

20     Ekavian accents [sic]."

21             Now does that statement apply here to all of the people in the

22     room during interrogation number 2?

23        A.   Yes.  The person who was wearing the camouflage uniform is

24     Person B.  He was the only one who wore that kind of uniform.  The others

25     wore an olive-green grey uniform.

Page 8622

 1        Q.   And what does an Ekavian accent mean, in terms of where a person

 2     is from?  What does it indicate?

 3        A.   Well, since I lived there for 25 years in that place before my

 4     marriage, we could recognise people who came from Belgrade, from

 5     Vojvodina, by their accents.

 6        Q.   Does an Ekavian accent mean that a person came from Belgrade or

 7     Vojvodina?

 8        A.   Excuse me, could you clarify which person you mean?

 9        Q.   Well, first of all, let's just start with a general question, and

10     I'll come back to the person I mean.

11             Can you tell us what it means to you about a person's origin if a

12     person speaks with an Ekavian accent?

13        A.   Especially at that time, it was very irritating when a person

14     spoke the Ekavian accent using a crutch word "bre," b-r-e.  There was one

15     person who spoke like that.  I don't know that person's name.  I only

16     know how he acted towards me, how he treated me.

17        Q.   Well, here in your statement, you say -- and this is the

18     addendum, the part where it says in paragraph 21, if you would look at

19     your statement and the last two sentences or the last sentence says:

20             "They were all Serbs, but not local ones; they spoke a drawling

21     Ekavian dialect."

22             Now am I wrong in thinking that that seems -- that does refer to

23     more than just one?

24        A.   You are not wrong.  The people whom I thought not to be locals

25     were the people whom I had never seen before.  They did not hail from the

Page 8623

 1     village or villages where this all happened.  They were strangers.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And just to be clear, Madam Witness, I'm specifically

 3     asking you now about this second interrogation that occurs at 5.00 p.m.

 4     And am I right in understanding that you didn't recognise any of the

 5     people in that room as being locals?

 6        A.   You're right.

 7        Q.   And am I also right in thinking that they all spoke with an

 8     Ekavian accent?

 9        A.   You are right.

10        Q.   And was this interrogation going on in what you described earlier

11     today as the local commune office?

12        A.   Yes.  In the local office which they called the office of the

13     Territorial Defence.

14        Q.   And now I'd like to move, if I may, to your third interrogation

15     that you referred to in your -- in your statement, which is at

16     paragraph 22.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could turn to that, please, on the screens.

18        Q.   And here you describe an interrogation that occurs on -- on the

19     next day, the day after the first two interrogations.

20             And am I right again that this interrogation is occurring at the

21     local commune office?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you say here that you were:

24             "... brought into the room with the same people who questioned me

25     the day before."


Page 8624

 1             By that, are you referring to the same people who were in the

 2     room during that second interrogation, the one that occurred at

 3     5.00 p.m.?

 4        A.   Yes.  They were all present except Person B.

 5        Q.   And you explain in this statement in this paragraph, that there

 6     are -- if I understand correctly, two additional or two different people

 7     who are present at this interrogation?  And by that I'm referring

 8     specifically to the individual mentioned -- and I guess we need to go

 9     into private session.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8625











11 Pages 8625-8629 redacted. Private session.
















Page 8630

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8631

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8632











11 Pages 8632-8643 redacted. Private session.
















Page 8644

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If there's nothing else for the moment, court

23     adjourned.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.09 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of


Page 8645

 1                           September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.