Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8646

 1                           Wednesday, 18 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances, please,

12     starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton,

15     Thomas Laugel, and Simona Onicel.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, and our intern,

20     Ivan Kochovski.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Witness, good morning.  Can you hear me in a language you

23     understand?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Yes, I can.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to make the solemn


Page 8647

 1     declaration, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

 2     must point out to you that by doing so, you expose yourself to the

 3     penalties of perjury, should you give false or untruthful information to

 4     the Tribunal.

 5             Could you stand for a moment and read the solemn declaration.

 6     The Court Usher will give you the text of it.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  VILIM KARLOVIC

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, could you tell us your name and your

14     date of birth, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Vilim Karlovic, born on

16     the 27th of October --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the year.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please repeat your date of birth.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 27 October 1970.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Karlovic.

21             Mr. Stringer, your witness.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23                           Examination by Mr. Stringer:

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Karlovic.  Can you hear me and understand me?

25        A.   Good morning.  Yes, can I hear you and I can understand.

Page 8648

 1        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, do you recall being here at the Tribunal and giving

 2     evidence in the Mrksic case, the case involving Messrs. Mrksic,

 3     Sljivancanin and Radic on the 20th and 21st of March, 2006?

 4        A.   I recall.

 5        Q.   And have you recently had an opportunity to listen to the audio

 6     recording of your testimony in that case?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.  Approximately a month ago.

 8        Q.   All right.  And for the record, the English transcripts of that

 9     evidence are at 65 ter 04502 and 04503.  They're both confidential.  And

10     also for the record, Mr. President, public redacted versions of those

11     transcripts have been uploaded as well.

12             Now, Mr. Karlovic, when -- after you listened to that audio

13     testimony from the Mrksic case, did we have an opportunity to meet then,

14     and did you indicate that there were some corrections or modifications

15     that you wanted to make?

16        A.   Yes.  We met a day later, and on that occasion, we made certain

17     amendments and corrections to that statement.

18        Q.   All right.  And at this time I'd like to ask you to -- I'd like

19     to take you through those so that we can get the record correct on -- on

20     those items.

21             The first of which, Mr. Karlovic, if I understood correctly you

22     wanted to modify your evidence about where it was in Vukovar where you

23     removed your uniform when you were going to enter into the hospital; is

24     that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8649

 1        Q.   Could you tell the Judges, please, what is the correction or the

 2     change you'd like to make on that point.

 3        A.   I'd only like to say that I removed my military uniform at the

 4     hospital itself once I got to the hospital, and I put it away in a room

 5     where there were other old, torn uniforms belonging to other people.

 6     That's where I put my uniform.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  And, for the record, Mr. President.  The

 8     references in the Mrksic testimony now that are being modified are at

 9     page 6321, line 23, and 6322, line 3.

10        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, in the Mrksic case, had you indicated that you took

11     your uniform off previously at a different location?

12        A.   Yes.  If I remember correctly, I mentioned a devastated house.  I

13     think it was supposed to be the police station that had been burned down

14     in Vukovar.

15        Q.   The next modification or clarification, Mr. Karlovic, related to

16     the time that you and your unit were based at this silo in Vukovar.  And

17     this is page 6316, line 25, and page 6317, line 1 of the Mrksic

18     testimony.

19             Mr. Karlovic, if I understand correctly, you just wanted to

20     indicate that although you were based at the silo, your unit made

21     interventions in other parts of the town of Vukovar; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  I only want to add that we were stationed at the silo at

23     the time, but with one group we went on several occasions on larger

24     intervention missions in different parts of town.

25        Q.   And we'll actually look at the location of the silo a bit later

Page 8650

 1     in your evidence today.

 2             Another modification, Mr. Karlovic, and this is at page 6228,

 3     line 12 of the Mrksic evidence, there, Mr. Karlovic, you had indicated

 4     that you didn't see any other soldiers in the cellar of the

 5     Vukovar Hospital and that you wanted to make a clarification on that

 6     point.

 7        A.   Yes.  I saw some.  In fact, some had come with me and there were

 8     other soldiers in the basement of that hospital with us.  I just wanted

 9     to add that I had seen some other people.  They were close to me.  And I

10     need to add those soldiers did not have any weapons.  They were in the

11     same situation as me.

12        Q.   And then from Mrksic page 6328, you had said that you had been

13     asked whether anything significant happened on the 19th of November, and

14     you indicated no.  And there was actually now one point you wanted to add

15     about the 19th; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  It's important to note that a man who was working at the

17     hospital who worked as a technician in the plaster room who applied

18     plaster-casts was removed from the hospital on the 19th - his name was

19     Marko - and he was never seen again.

20        Q.   Do you recall who removed him?

21        A.   I know people mentioned that the enemy army took him out.

22        Q.   Now, at page 6330, line 21 of your Mrksic evidence, Mr. Karlovic,

23     you had said that there were only men on your bus; that is, the bus that

24     you were on when you went from the hospital to the barracks and then out

25     to Ovcara.  Did you want to correct that?

Page 8651

 1        A.   Yes.  I would add there was a married couple, which means there

 2     was one woman on the bus.  They sat in front of me, just behind the

 3     driver.  They were already on the bus when we started boarding the bus

 4     from the yard of the hospital.

 5        Q.   Do you know what their ethnicity was?

 6        A.   I do.  They were Serbs.  Because several times they insisted they

 7     were Serbs and should be released.  That's why it remained in my memory

 8     that they were Serbs.

 9        Q.   And do you know what became of them?

10        A.   They were released at Ovcara, just before the rest of us got off

11     the bus.  An officer had come to collect them, and he let them go on

12     their way.

13        Q.   Now, at page 6332 and 6333 of the Mrksic evidence, you made a

14     reference to someone who you named as Ivan Gruber.  Do you want to

15     correct that?

16        A.   It's just the correction to the name.  It's not Ivan; it's Zoran.

17        Q.   And who was he?

18        A.   He was a member of the Home Guards Corps, the 1st Brigade to

19     which I also belonged but a different unit inside that brigade.  He was

20     wounded in his right shoulder.

21        Q.   And then at line 6337 [sic] from the Mrksic case, you said that

22     you learned that you were at this place called Ovcara farm, that you

23     learned that the name was -- was Ovcara when you were actually at that

24     location.  Did you want to modify that?

25        A.   I just want to add that I first heard about Ovcara on the bus

Page 8652

 1     itself, from the man who was sitting next to me.

 2        Q.   All right.  And, again, just so the Chamber understands - and

 3     we'll talk about it more later - did you know the area of -- of the

 4     Vukovar region at the time that these events occurred?

 5        A.   I did not know the area of Vukovar, no.

 6        Q.   Why not?

 7        A.   I was in Vukovar for the first time during the war.  Otherwise,

 8     I'd always lived in Zagreb.  I'd never been to Vukovar before.

 9        Q.   Now at page 6339, lines 6 through 9 of your Mrksic evidence, you

10     said that you thought there were about ten people forming this gauntlet

11     that you and the others went through on their way into the hangar at

12     Ovcara?

13        A.   Well, I gave my estimate, around ten people.  It could have been

14     15.  That's the number that I remember roughly.  But as we had to go

15     through that gauntlet before entering the hangar, there could have been

16     perhaps 15 people.

17        Q.   The last one is at page 6336, lines 1 through 5, Mr. Karlovic, in

18     the Mrksic case, you spoke about a sixth bus that you associated with the

19     JNA barracks.  We'll talk about this more in your evidence as well.  But

20     the question was whether the sixth bus that you recall also went from the

21     barracks to Ovcara with the other buses.

22        A.   What I would like to say now is that I'm sure he stayed behind us

23     at the barracks.  I'm not sure he left for Ovcara.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, Mr. Karlovic, having made these corrections or

25     modifications to your evidence in the Mrksic case, are you now able to

Page 8653

 1     affirm if the testimony you gave in that case is -- is truthful and

 2     accurate?

 3        A.   Yes, I confirm that.

 4        Q.   And if I asked you all the same questions today that you were

 5     asked in that case, would your answers be the same?

 6        A.   I believe that in 90 per cent -- 95 per cent of cases I would

 7     give the same answer.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, Prosecution tenders the witness's

 9     Rule 92 ter statement, which is 65 ter 4502 and 4503.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3000 and P3001, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. STRINGER:  And, Mr. President, just for the record, and we'll

14     get to this later as well, one other revision, the witness wanted to just

15     make a slight revision of the markings he made on one of the aerial

16     photographs, and our proposal is not to tender that one photograph from

17     the Mrksic case as part of the associated exhibits, and that's

18     65 ter 2683.  But, rather, just to start again with a fresh one and have

19     the witness make the marking that he now would like to make, just so that

20     we're not having to correct a previous exhibit.

21        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, before we talk about the events from late 1991,

22     just a couple of background questions.

23             Did you join the Croatian National Guard in 1991?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   How old were you at that time?

Page 8654

 1        A.   Not quite 21.

 2        Q.   And later on, then, did the Croatian National Guard sort of

 3     become the Croatian army?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How long did you remain in the Croatian army?

 6        A.   Until 2003.

 7        Q.   And then were you pensioned in 2003 from the -- the army?

 8        A.   Yes, I was pensioned off in 2003.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Karlovic, could you give the Judges just a brief

10     description of why you were pensioned at that period.  You were still

11     relatively young.

12        A.   One of the main reason for the pension was the post-traumatic

13     stress disorder.

14        Q.   Now, are you currently serving a prison sentence at a place

15     called Lepoglava in Croatia?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And, again, could I ask you just to give us a brief description

18     of why you're currently imprisoned there.

19        A.   I'm imprisoned for murder.

20        Q.   Is there any more information you'd like to give us about that

21     or ... I leave it to you.

22        A.   I'll try to be brief.

23             I killed my best man.  I mean, I was his best man at his wedding.

24     I borrowed money from him, and I returned it several times over.

25     However, the threats did not stop to me and my family.  The threats

Page 8655

 1     mentioned that my family and I would be killed.  And after a lot of time

 2     full of pressure and threats, and after I went bankrupt, in the midst of

 3     a quarrel, I fired a gun at the man and took his life.  That's why I was

 4     imprisoned for six years.

 5             That the briefest I can put it.

 6        Q.   When did that occur?

 7        A.   That happened on the 30th of October, 2008.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Karlovic, in your Mrksic evidence, you talk about your

 9     arrival at Vukovar.  And just a couple questions on this point.

10             MR. STRINGER:  If we could have, please, on the screen tab 12,

11     which is 65 ter 2680.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.  If each one takes that much long to load,

14     Mr.  President, we're going to be here for a little while.  The next one

15     is 2676.  I don't known if there's a way to queue it up while we talk

16     about this.

17        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, this is an exhibit that you marked on when you were

18     here in the Mrksic case.  And just so the Judges can see, can you

19     describe what this is, what does this show.

20        A.   This is the direction in which our unit moved from a placed

21     called Bogdanovci, which is marked as A, until we entered the city; and

22     the silo, which is marked as B.  We called it the corn field road.

23     That's how we entered Vukovar.

24        Q.   And what was the date of your arrival, then, at this location B?

25        A.   That was already the 1st October, between 3.00 and 4.00 in the

Page 8656

 1     morning.

 2        Q.   And now the next one is tab 9, which is 65 ter 2676.

 3             Okay, Witness.  This again is a map showing markings that you

 4     made.  And you had clarified already in your Mrksic testimony about

 5     making interventions from the area of the silo.  Again, could you just

 6     briefly tell the Judges what this map shows.

 7        A.   We see the position of the silo marked as A.  And after that, we

 8     see the position to which my unit was moved; that's position B.

 9        Q.   And that's, then, a position squarely within the city of Vukovar.

10        A.   Yes, yes.  That's position B.

11        Q.   And is this the location you and your colleagues were at, then,

12     when you surrendered or when the resistance ended and you went to the

13     hospital?

14        A.   Let me just clarify.  That was an initial position.  We were

15     losing those positions.  And when our resistance stopped, we were closer

16     to the hospital.  We were in the vicinity of the hospital.  I don't know.

17     If this is not clear enough, we can go through it again.

18        Q.   I think that's sufficient.  Thank you.

19             MR. STINGER:  Just for the Registrar, I can say that the next

20     slide will be 65 ter 2877, which is tab 23.

21        Q.   And while that's coming up, Mr. Karlovic, let me ask you some

22     questions then.  You just mentioned going to the hospital.  Do you recall

23     when it was you arrived at the Vukovar Hospital?

24        A.   On -- on the 17th November, in the evening.

25        Q.   I wanted to ask you why you didn't try to escape Vukovar rather

Page 8657

 1     than laying down your weapon and surrendering, perhaps trying to get back

 2     out through the corn field through which you had entered.

 3        A.   Well, I'll have to explain this at greater length.  First of all,

 4     I should say that probably until the very end of my life I will not have

 5     an answer to that question.  We were fighting.  We had put up a

 6     resistance practically until the very last day.  Our last positions were

 7     around the hospital, and everybody was confused.  Some people wanted to

 8     stay, other people wanted to leave.  Since, in the hospital, I had eight

 9     of my wounded fellow combatants, I thought that it was best for me to go

10     to the hospital and to surrender, together with them.

11             I somehow felt safer close to them.  However, I also have to

12     state a fact.  Perhaps I was fed up with fighting in general, and the

13     uncertainty involved.  Perhaps I took the path of least resistance.  And,

14     quite simply, I succumbed to my state and stayed at the hospital.  This

15     is a complex emotional question.  In these moments I did not know the

16     terrain.  I was not from Vukovar.  I didn't know where I would go.  Quite

17     simply at that moment that was the decision I made and probably, as I

18     said, I'll be thinking about it to the end of my life, wondering whether

19     I should have done something different.  Now that I survived all of that

20     and that I am alive, I believe that somebody else decided for me to make

21     that decision and I believe that that is God Almighty.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Karlovic, you mentioned that you had others, other

23     fighters that -- that were in your unit who were wounded and in the

24     hospital.  Did any of your comrades in arms end up on the bus with you

25     when you left the hospital and headed off towards the JNA barracks?

Page 8658

 1        A.   Well, Zeljko Major was with me and Zoran Gruber as well.

 2     Actually, Gruber was not from the basic group that I arrived with but he

 3     was a member of that unit, the 1st Brigade.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us approximately what time it was when you left the

 5     hospital and the procedure then began for boarding the buses.  In this --

 6     well, can you tell us what date that was.

 7        A.   Well, we started leaving the hospital on the 20th of October.  I

 8     remember that the whole procedure started around 9.00 in the morning --

 9        Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Karlovic, we have the transcript, I don't know

10     whether you or -- what was the date?

11        A.   Okay.  Okay.  I probably said the 20th of October, right?

12             First of all, that is the date on which I got married to my wife.

13     Sorry.  And that's why it's probably in my mind.  I do apologise.

14             I meant to say the 20th of November.  The 20th of November at

15     9.00 in the morning.

16        Q.   Do you recall approximately what time it was, then, when the

17     buses arrived at the JNA barracks?

18        A.   Well, I can remember that it was roughly around 11.00.

19        Q.   [Microphone not activated] And how many buses were there?

20        A.   Five buses that were full.

21        Q.   If we could now have, please, tab 23, page 14, which is from

22     65 ter 2877.  Page 14.

23             Do you recognise this place, Mr. Karlovic?

24        A.   Yes, I do.  Yes.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 8659

 1        A.   The barracks in Vukovar where we were with those five buses.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, in just a couple of minutes, I'm going to ask you to

 3     take the pen and to make some markings on this.  But before I do that,

 4     I'd like to ask you just to briefly describe the scene that -- that was

 5     taking place during the time that you were there.  What did you observe?

 6        A.   Well, we arrived in the barracks, and as we travelled through

 7     town, the enemy army escorted us with different units.  The escort, and

 8     also the way we were met at the Vukovar barracks, all of it was very

 9     hostile, accompanied by threats.  They said that they would kill us,

10     slaughter us.  So we were very frightened as we were on these buses in

11     the barracks for a couple of hours.  Of course these were mixed units of

12     the JNA, the Territorial Defence, Chetnik formations.  They were all

13     going around the buses.  Some of them wanted to enter the buses

14     immediately.  Later on, they did.  So it was a situation of general fear,

15     uncertainty.  That is what I can say roughly.

16        Q.   Did you observe any people being taken off the buses?

17        A.   Well, yes, of course.  After a while, they started taking people

18     out of these five buses.  Quite simply, the procedure was as follows:

19     One officer went around the buses, and he carried a list, and on the

20     basis of that list, he took people out of our buses and moved them to

21     this sixth bus that was in the barracks when we arrived.

22             The point was that, in addition to this JNA officer who was

23     getting people out, on the basis of that list, these local Chetniks also

24     took people out of these five buses of ours.  They took a few people out.

25        Q.   Did you observe what happened to people who were taken off by

Page 8660

 1     Chetniks?

 2        A.   Well, I'm going to say what happened to these people.

 3             All the people who got out were tortured by the JNA and by the

 4     Chetniks.  The only difference was that people who were taken out by the

 5     JNA were taken to that bus.  Of course they were beaten in front of the

 6     bus and on the bus itself, whereas those who were taken out of -- taken

 7     out by the Chetniks, were immediately beaten as they got off the bus.

 8     They were taken behind that hangar.  Again, moans could be heard, and

 9     swearing, gun-shot, screams.

10             That is what I can say briefly, how people who were taken off our

11     buses were treated.

12        Q.   Approximately how long did these buses remain there at the

13     barracks?

14        A.   Well, approximately we left the barracks around 2.30, 20 minutes

15     to 3.00, something like that.  Over three hours for sure.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Karlovic, with the assistance of the usher, I'm going to

17     ask if you could take the pen --

18             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  Before

19     carrying on, I would like to ask a clarification.

20             Could you please ask the witness about page number 14 of the

21     transcript, because he was talking about members of the JNA who were

22     taken -- who were taking people from the buses.  But he also mentioned

23     Chetniks.

24             So what does the witness mean exactly when he uses the word

25     "Chetnik"?

Page 8661

 1             MR. STRINGER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, perhaps I could ask you in responding to

 3     Judge Mindua's question, could -- to describe in general the criteria

 4     that you use when distinguishing between JNA, Chetniks, and TO, which

 5     you've all mentioned now.

 6        A.   Well, before I answer, I have to express an opinion of mine, if

 7     possible.

 8             Throughout my testimony, these four or five times when I was

 9     here, I always have to explain who is who and I understand that.  Quite

10     simply, we from that part of the world know exactly who was who, but I'll

11     explain it in the briefest possible terms.

12             The easiest way to distinguish between the two was by the way

13     they were dressed and their general appearance, their uniforms, and so

14     on.  So this was the main distinction between the JNA, the Chetnik

15     formations.

16             Of course the Territorial Defence was there too.  And it was

17     somewhere between the JNA and the Chetnik formations.  Of course, it is

18     not always possible.  It was not always possible to recognise exactly who

19     belonged to -- to a Territorial Defence unit or a Chetnik unit.  JNA

20     members bore the insignia of the former Yugoslavia, five-pointed star.

21     The Territorial Defence had Serbian insignia.  And the Chetnik units had

22     their traditional Chetnik emblem, the kokarde, so we could tell them

23     apart.  Also they wore their traditional caps, the fur caps, and the

24     Sajkaca caps, and so on, so we could distinguish on that basis who

25     belonged to who.

Page 8662

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 2             MR. STRINGER:

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Karlovic, with the assistance of the usher, could you

 4     first make a marking on the map to show us the position of the five

 5     buses, as you recall it.  Just the five.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   All right.  Could you just put a letter A close by that.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Could you now indicate the location of this -- the green bus,

10     the -- the other bus that the prisoners from the list were put onto.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Could you give that a letter B.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Now, you mentioned a place -- you mentioned a hangar where the

15     Chetniks were taking people.  Could you indicate the location that you

16     were describing there?

17        A.   Letter C or what?

18        Q.   Letter C, yes.

19        A.   Okay.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now that's the hangar.  Were they taken inside the hangar

21     or elsewhere?

22        A.   Can I draw an arrow to depict the direction in which they took

23     them?

24        Q.   Yes.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 8663

 1        Q.   Very good.  And then, finally, Mr. Karlovic, if you could -- if

 2     you're able to indicate, again with an arrow, the location from which you

 3     entered the barracks, when you came from the hospital, and then also the

 4     direction when you left the barracks on your way to Ovcara.

 5        A.   This is the direction we took going to the barracks.  The pen is

 6     not exactly working the way I'd like it to.

 7        Q.   Could you put a letter D next to that.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   So that's the entry.  And then for the exit.

10        A.   [In English] Yes.  [Interpretation] The same exit, but we just

11     went in this direction, as we went to Ovcara.

12        Q.   And for the exit, then, that would be letter E.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And then just to make sure the record's clear, Mr. Karlovic, the

15     letter C with the hangar, were the witnesses taken to the side or -- of

16     this hangar, as far as you saw -- sorry, not the witnesses.  The

17     prisoners.

18        A.   I'm sorry, I did not quite understand.  Yes, C marks the hangar.

19     And the prisoners were taken behind that hangar.

20             Was that the question?

21        Q.   That is the question and you've given the answer.  Thank you.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender this photograph with its

23     markings.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3002.

Page 8664

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. STRINGER:

 3        Q.   Witness, as indicated in your evidence, then, the group moved

 4     from this location, the barracks, out to the place that -- yeah, you can

 5     put the pen down.  Moved out to a place that you learned was called

 6     Ovcara.

 7             As the buses arrived at Ovcara, which bus were you in?  The

 8     first, or the last, or something in between?

 9        A.   Well, it was a column of five buses that was escorted by the

10     military, in front of us, behind us.  I was located on the fourth bus,

11     the one-but-last.  That is what I have to say about arrival in Ovcara.

12             This transportation did not take very long.  We got there

13     relatively quickly.  The buses were in a column.  And one by one, they

14     approached the Ovcara hangar.  People disembarked from these buses, one

15     by one.  They passed through this line, or, rather, they ran this

16     gauntlet of about 15 enemy soldiers.

17             Should I say something more about that or should I go on?

18        Q.   Let me ask you a couple of questions.  Because the Judges do have

19     now the transcript of your Mrksic evidence, I'd like to focus,

20     Mr. Karlovic, on some of the things, statements that were said or that

21     you overheard while you were there.

22             In your evidence, you've described your -- striking up a

23     conversation with a person you called Stuka.  And in -- let me ask you,

24     and in your evidence, you indicate that it's this person Stuka who then

25     came with his captain and took you out of the hangar after you had run

Page 8665

 1     through the gauntlet.

 2             My question is:  In your discussions with Stuka during the time

 3     you were at Ovcara, did he make any statements to you about what would be

 4     the fate of the people in the hangar?

 5        A.   Well, yes.  I talked to Stuka, and I asked him what would happen

 6     to us.  And he said, quite simply, that everybody would be killed, that

 7     they would kill all of us.  And that is what I could say in the briefest

 8     possible terms.  This man was a JNA soldier.  He took me out of this

 9     hangar after I had run the gauntlet, after I was beaten, was hit a few

10     times again, and then I was taken out and rescued.

11             As for this relationship with Stuka, I found out from the him

12     that all of us would be killed, and that was the plan for the entire

13     group.

14        Q.   Now during the time that you were in the hangar did you become

15     aware of another prisoner who was there whose name was Sinisa Glavasevic?

16        A.   Well, as soon I entered the hangar, on the right-hand side there

17     was Sinisa Glavasevic.  That is the moment when they were doing all sorts

18     of things to him, beating him.  I know they were screaming with delight,

19     That is Sinisa Glavasevic.  He is the greatest Ustasha of all.  He killed

20     most of us.  I can add that he was radio journalist who reported every

21     day about enemy losses.  So that was probably some kind of irony with

22     which they treated him.  So I remember this very well as they took all of

23     that out on Sinisa Glavasevic.

24        Q.   During the time that beatings were taking place in the hangar

25     were there any changes of personnel or did the same people continue on

Page 8666

 1     the beatings?

 2        A.   Well, quite simply, it has to do with the way in which they did

 3     this.  It was the same group that was there all the time but they were

 4     divided into some kind of groups.  Since the beatings went on for quite a

 5     while, there were two groups.  When given a sign, it was a whistle, it

 6     was one group that would beat people and then after that the other group

 7     would start beating people.

 8        Q.   Could you observe who had the whistle or who was giving this

 9     sign?

10        A.   No, I did not see that.  I just heard that, as I stood in front

11     of that wall, in front of the hangar.

12        Q.   Now, after you were taken out of the hangar by Stuka, then, were

13     you there with other people who also had been put there?

14        A.   Yes.  In addition to myself, there were six other people; that is

15     to say, there were seven of us in front of the hangar.

16        Q.   Now during this time, Mr. Karlovic, did you observe that any

17     children or young people were also taken out of the hangar?

18        A.   Well, I remember one particular situation.  A mother had arrived

19     in that hangar.  I will never know how it was that she found out that

20     something was happening there.

21             I've slowed down a bit because all of this is being interpreted.

22             She was crying and she said that her son was there, that he was

23     born with a disability, that he had nothing to do with the war

24     whatsoever.  And I know that a JNA officer took that child out.  He had

25     already been beaten up very badly.  Before the mother left with that

Page 8667

 1     child, she started thanking that officer.  And I remember that he said to

 2     her, Remember that your son's life was saved by -- and now I keep

 3     struggling with this last name.  Now is it Ivanovic, Jovanovic,

 4     Ivankovic.  At any rate, that's what he said, Remember that such and such

 5     a person saved your child's life.

 6        Q.   How long did you and these six others in your group there in

 7     front of the hangar remain out front observing these events?

 8        A.   Well, my estimate is that it must have been two hours because

 9     before we left this hangar, it started getting dark.  That is to say, it

10     was winter-time, so realistically speaking it could have been about 5.30

11     already.

12        Q.   And then when you left Ovcara, where did you go and how did you

13     get there?

14        A.   Well, a white van arrived at Ovcara, and the seven of us squeezed

15     into it.  First, we were taken to the Velepromet warehouse.  We were

16     there for a very short period of time.  And then we were sent to the

17     Modateks factory.

18        Q.   Who accompanied you in the van to Modateks?

19        A.   Stuka, the JNA soldier who saved me, was in that van.  Then there

20     was a JNA soldier Mujdzan, that was his nickname.  Also, there was the

21     doctor's son, Dr. Ivankovic's son.  That is to say, also a Serb, who was

22     in the enemy army.  Then Dr. Ivankovic -- I see the transcript in front

23     of me.  Ivankovic, I-v-a-n-k-o-v-i-c.  I think there was another one

24     there, too, but I cannot remember his name or his nickname or anything.

25             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit, Mr. President, is a video-clip.

Page 8668

 1     It's already been admitted.  It's P1076.

 2        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, we're just going to play this video.  We don't need

 3     sound.  Ask you to look at the video and then I'll ask you a question.

 4     P1076.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.

 7        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, is there anything from this video that you

 8     recognise?  Any of the people?  We can play it again, if you'd like.

 9        A.   It's not necessary.  I can say -- we can play it, but I can

10     answer the question.

11             From what I saw very quickly, the soldier who was closing the

12     hangar, I remember him from Ovcara.

13        Q.   Let's play it one more time and then we'll stop at a point where

14     we can identify who it is you're describing.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   So we're seeing one of them close the door.  Is that the one

18     you're referring to?

19        A.   Yes.  The one who is still holding on to the door.  That's the

20     one.

21        Q.   How were you able to remember that you saw this person also at

22     Ovcara?

23        A.   Well, quite simply, that's a person I remember.  He was wearing

24     the same at Ovcara, and he was always a bit particular because he always

25     stood a bit to the side, carrying a rifle, never involved in any

Page 8669

 1     beatings.  He was just watching everything with a serious look on his

 2     face, and I had the impression that he was distancing himself from all

 3     that was going on.

 4             That's what I remember.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  For the record, Mr. President, the witness has

 6     identified the person who is on the right-hand part of the screen.

 7     Unless Your Honours think that more identification is required, I'm

 8     prepared to move on.  Very well.

 9        Q.   Now, you've told us about going back to a place called Modateks

10     in the white van.  I'm going to ask you some questions, but in the

11     meantime we can get ready with 65 ter 2802, which is tab 19.  It's

12     another one of the photographs, 2802.

13             MR. STRINGER:  And, Mr. Registrar, you can put that up on the

14     screen whenever you're ready.

15        Q.   In the meantime, Mr. Karlovic, can you describe for the Judges

16     what this Modateks place was?

17        A.   It was a textile factory, making blankets, I think.  Because I

18     know when we entered that large room, it was full of tables with sewing

19     machines on them.  It was a small textile factory.

20        Q.   Now, you said there were seven of you prisoners.  Were there

21     other people at this place when you arrived?

22        A.   Yes.  It was a group of people, mainly civilians, women,

23     children, and elderly men, the people who were supposed to go the next

24     morning to be exchanged in Croatia.  That's probably why we were brought

25     to that warehouse.  The plan must have been for us who had been spared to

Page 8670

 1     be transported, together with those civilians, to Croatia.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now this is the night of the 20th of November.

 3     During that night, did anything take place?

 4        A.   Yes.  And that's important to the fact that we stayed in Vukovar

 5     eventually.

 6             During that night, a group of several men came, headed by

 7     Bulidza.  And as soon as they saw the seven of us, they threatened us not

 8     to go anywhere.  They said we should be killed.  They were insulting us,

 9     threatening us, saying that they would come to pick us up the next

10     morning and kill us.  After that, they left.  We stayed there until the

11     morning.  The civilians were taken out early in the morning, and the

12     seven of us stayed in the warehouse.

13        Q.   All right.  And then from this place at Modateks, that morning,

14     did you -- you -- your group then moved across to the Velepromet

15     facility?

16        A.   Just to continue where I left off.  The morning came.  The seven

17     of us were still there.  The group headed by Bulidza came again.  There

18     were beatings, insults, threats.  However, a man who was there, who was

19     guarding us, took us under his wing.  He was in charge of the civilians.

20     He had several JNA soldiers with him.  His nickname was Grandad, Deda.

21     That's how others called him too.  Later I found out his name was

22     Jezdimir Stankovic.  He convinced Bulidza and the others to leave us

23     alone for a while, saying that we had clean the place up.  He told

24     Bulidza to -- came later.  I can say looking back that that man saved our

25     lives.  Bulidza did as he asked, and after the mistreatments and after

Page 8671

 1     beating us, they left.  And Grandad, probably to spare himself further

 2     problems with us, decide then to transport us to the Velepromet

 3     warehouse.

 4        Q.   Now this beating that you referred to by the Chetniks that

 5     morning at Modateks, during that -- while that was taking place were

 6     there any more direct threats made against you by anyone in his group?

 7        A.   Yes.  All the beatings were a threat, letting us know what would

 8     happen to us later.  I even remember one particular man, Safet, who put a

 9     gun in my mouth.  All these beatings had the purpose of letting us know

10     that we would be killed.  It didn't last long but it was very hard.

11        Q.   Now, when you were at the Velepromet -- when you arrived at

12     Velepromet, I should say, did you see an incident involving an old man

13     who was among the prisoners there?

14        A.   Yes.  I saw it while still standing in my column.  I must say,

15     when we arrived at Velepromet, there was already a group of people who

16     had formed a column, and one man was taken out of our column, out of that

17     group.  They dragged him away and cut his throat with a broken bottle.

18             That incident took place, perhaps, 30 metres away from me.

19        Q.   Looking now on the screen in front of you, Mr. Karlovic, do you

20     recognise this place?

21        A.   I see Velepromet.

22        Q.   Can you indicate with the pen the location where you were

23     standing and where this incident occurred involving this man whose throat

24     was cut.

25        A.   I must say, the pen shows at least a centimetre more than I

Page 8672

 1     intended to.

 2        Q.   Can you just --

 3        A.   Shall I try again?

 4        Q.   Maybe we can wipe -- if we can wipe the image and start over.

 5             Just wait a second, Mr. Karlovic.  We'll start again.

 6             Okay.  Just ... very good.  Now --

 7        A.   It's closer to the larger dot, not the small one.

 8        Q.   Just put an X there, if you can.

 9        A.   This is the best I can do.

10        Q.   And you've just put a dot on the -- on the photograph.  What's

11     that?

12        A.   It's roughly where I was standing as that incident was happening.

13        Q.   And did the incident take place where you were standing, or was

14     it taking place somewhere else?

15        A.   No.  They took him to the back.  I can show you in which

16     direction --

17        Q.   Can you put an X on that place.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   Again, the pen slid a bit off, but that's approximately the

21     place.

22        Q.   Can I ask you to just put the letter A by the place you were

23     standing and a letter B by the place where the incident occurred.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Karlovic, just to save a little bit of time,

Page 8673

 1     because we do have your evidence, you were then put into a room called

 2     the Stolarija or the carpentry work-shop.  Could you just place a circle

 3     around the approximate location of that place.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   And put a letter C by that.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7             MR. STRINGER:  We tender this, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3003, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 18; 65 ter 2725.

12        Q.   While that's coming up, Mr. Karlovic, this Stolarija,

13     approximately how much time, how long did you stay there on this day,

14     which is now the 21st of November?

15        A.   Well, first of all, I was there for five or six hours after being

16     taken out of the carpentry shop.  Then I was taken away.  I passed

17     through --

18        Q.   And --

19        A.   Do you have a question?

20        Q.   Yes, before we talk about when you were taken away.  In this

21     photograph, are you able to identify the location of this room you've

22     referred to?

23        A.   The room is this one, but my pen is not leaving a mark.  I don't

24     know why ...

25        Q.   With the usher's assistance, put a letter A on that location.

Page 8674

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Now, in that room, were you with anyone else who had come with

 3     the group of seven from Ovcara?

 4        A.   Yes.  Tihomir Perkovic was with me.

 5        Q.   Do you know where any of the other people in this group were

 6     being held at that time?

 7        A.   There was another room - I'll mark it with B - that was the room

 8     facing ours.

 9        Q.   And now on the screen, we see, in between those two letters, what

10     appears to be a door.  Is that the door that you were -- you went

11     through, to go in?

12        A.   Well, that's the central room, in fact.  This is the entrance,

13     the central room, and from that room, we entered room A on the left and

14     room B on the right.

15        Q.   Now, in your evidence, you talk about prisoners who were being

16     taken out of these rooms by Chetniks.  The question here is whether, in

17     the course of this you observed whether there was any -- was there a

18     particular procedure or how would this actually take place?

19        A.   There's no procedure.  The JNA military police was in charge of

20     guarding us.  However, the Chetniks had no problem entering the two rooms

21     we were in and taking people out.  Quite simply, the JNA military police,

22     in co-operation with the Chetniks, had organised for those people to be

23     taken out and killed.

24        Q.   The men that were taken out, were they instructed to do anything

25     before leaving this building?

Page 8675

 1        A.   Most of the people who were taken out had to take their clothes

 2     off.  For instance, after somebody left from my room, they had to take

 3     their clothes off right behind the door.

 4        Q.   Who was the youngest person in your room?

 5        A.   In my room, the youngest was a 14-year-old boy.  Fourteen or so.

 6     He was also taken out.  There were two brothers.  First of all, they

 7     wanted to take out the elder brother, but after the younger brother

 8     started screaming and crying, holding on to him and not letting him go,

 9     they left the elder brother in the room and took the younger one, the

10     14-year-old one, instead.  After leaving the room, he also had to take

11     his clothes off.  He was taken outside.  We heard his crying, moaning.

12     He was saying, It hurts.  Don't do this to me.  After that, we heard

13     gun-shots.  And then we didn't hear the voice of the child anymore.

14        Q.   Do you recall the names or did you hear the names of any of these

15     Chetniks who were taking these prisoners out?

16        A.   What sticks in my mind is that one was Dule.  And the other was

17     Sveto, or Stevo, or Stevan.  I'm not sure.

18             In any case, it was one and the same group, which, on that day,

19     within those few hours, removed people from these two rooms.

20        Q.   What became of Mr. Perkovic?

21        A.   He was taken out of my room.  Unfortunately, the man I referred

22     to by the nickname Sveto obviously knew him, knew Perkovic, and Sveto

23     seemed very glad that he had found him.  And I know today that after

24     being taken out, Perkovic was killed.  He did not survive the removal

25     from that room.

Page 8676

 1        Q.   Now, at some point, you were taken out of this room.

 2             Could we please have tab 8, which is 2675.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Oh, I should tender this exhibit into evidence,

 4     Mr. President.  This ...

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3004, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  So tab 8, 65 ter 2675.

 9        Q.   While that's coming up, Mr. Karlovic, who was it that came for

10     you and then took you out of this room?

11        A.   A group of Chetniks came for me.  On that day, during those few

12     hours, they had not been at the Velepromet warehouse.  They came for me,

13     took me out, and took me on towards the house where I was later tortured.

14        Q.   And this is one of the photographs you marked on during the

15     Mrksic evidence.  What does the arrow show here?

16        A.   This arrow designates the road along which I was taken when

17     Belgija came for me.  Belgija is the nickname of the man who was leading

18     me.

19        Q.   And what is the letter A?

20        A.   That's the structure from which I was taken.

21        Q.   Now, on your way out of Velepromet during this -- on this path,

22     did you happen to see any bodies?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I saw several corpses lying there, in the place just

24     as you leave the yard of Velepromet close to the railways.

25        Q.   Now, in your evidence, you talk about being taken by this person

Page 8677

 1     Belgija to a house where you are -- you meet a larger group of Chetniks.

 2             Could you just give a brief description of what took place at

 3     this location.

 4        A.   I was brought to a house where there were more than 20 Chetniks.

 5     After I was brought in, they rejoiced because, as they put it, they had

 6     just received a young Ustasha to have fun with.  There was a table in the

 7     middle.  There was drink and food on the table.  I was sat down in the

 8     middle.  A man holding me at gunpoint, holding a gun to my head, in fact

 9     was standing behind me all the time.  To my right was this man Belgija.

10     On the other side there was an older man.  And then the mistreatment

11     started.  Beatings, insults.  They spat at me.  At one point, they took

12     my clothes off, leaving me bare to the waste.  And amid all this

13     mistreatment and beatings, they cut me up and injured me seriously on my

14     arm, back.  They burned candles on my skin.  Broke my nose.  Threatened

15     me.  And among them was one woman who kept talking them into raping me.

16     And after they raped me she would cut my genitals off.  Her nickname was

17     Daca.  And all this was supposed to end with Belgija slitting my throat.

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Karlovic, just to be clear for the record, were you

19     raped during this encounter?

20        A.   Fortunately, no.

21        Q.   And then what -- what happened while this was taking place?

22        A.   At one point, a man came into the house.  Now I know who he is.

23     His nickname is Mare.  His name is Marko Ljuboja.  He took in the whole

24     scene, saw what was going on.  He said, What's all this?  What's going

25     on?  Marko Ljuboja, I have to say, was also a member of a Chetnik unit.

Page 8678

 1     To be more precise, he was a member of Seselj's Chetniks.  And after

 2     seeing what was being done to me he set out from that house, and I

 3     remember they were telling him, Oh don't do that.  You are going to save

 4     him.  You want to save him.  And as he was leaving, he said, No, no, you

 5     just go on doing what you were doing.  But eventually he came back with

 6     another man whose nickname was Kinez.

 7        Q.   Sorry to cut you off because it's just about time for the first

 8     court break.  Just to wind up this topic then, it was Kinez and Mare then

 9     who succeeded in getting you out of this house with the Chetniks?

10        A.   They managed with great difficulty to get me out, because it

11     nearly came to a fire-fight between them.  But they managed.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, if Your Honours wish to take the

13     break now.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Karlovic, this is our first break.  We'll

15     take 30 minutes and come back at 11.00.  The Court Usher will escort you

16     out of the courtroom.

17             Ah, yes, I'm sorry, the security will escort you out of the

18     courtroom.  Sorry about that.

19             Court adjourned.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 8679

 1        Q.   Mr. Karlovic, I overlooked one thing in my outline that I quickly

 2     want to jump back to before we continue.  And that would be to show you

 3     an image that is tab 13, 65 ter 2681.

 4             Now, Mr. Karlovic, this is one of the photos that you marked on

 5     during your Mrksic testimony so I'm not going to ask you to make any more

 6     markings on this.  But if you could just give the Judges a brief

 7     description of what appears on this, in relation to your markings.

 8             First of all, where is this, I should ask?

 9        A.   This is the area of Ovcara where that hangar is, where we were

10     brought to from the Vukovar barracks.

11        Q.   And can you just give a brief description of the markings there,

12     what they relate to.

13        A.   First of all, I marked the column of buses.  That is to say,

14     their positions, where we were.  I marked with a number 2 the place where

15     I had contact with the soldier Stuka.  And number 3 is the place in front

16     of the hangar where the seven of us who had been saved stood.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'm going to move back to my outline,

18     Mr. Karlovic, and I'd now ask you to look at a short video-clip.  It's

19     already in evidence.  It's P1729.  We don't need the sound.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. STRINGER:

22        Q.   Did you see anyone that you recognise in this clip, Mr. Karlovic?

23        A.   I recognised Kinez, who, together with Mare, saved me from that

24     house that I spoke about a moment ago.

25        Q.   Apart from just yesterday, when -- when we met, had you ever seen

Page 8680

 1     this video-clip before?

 2        A.   Yes.  I myself found it on YouTube as well.  I saw it before too.

 3        Q.   If we could just play it one last time, and I'll ask if you can

 4     give us an indication of who it is that you've identified as Kinez.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6        A.   Want to stop it or what?

 7        Q.   Stop.

 8        A.   This.  Now.

 9             Well, it's the man can you see here, the tall man in the back

10     with a beret on his head.  Would that be sufficient?

11        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

12             MR. STRINGER:  If we could have P1730, page 1, which is

13     65 ter 4885.

14             For the record, Mr. President, the time code the witness has just

15     spoken of relates -- is -- is from 2 hours, 49 minutes, 29.1 seconds.

16             If we can have the photograph, please.  Oh, is it up?  My

17     apologies.

18             This is 65 ter 4885.1.  I'm sorry, .2.  4885.2.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Karlovic, we can work with this photograph.  And so just

20     for the record, with the pen and with the usher's assistance, could you

21     just put a circle around the head of the person you have identified as

22     Kinez.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STRINGER:  We tender that, Mr. President.

Page 8681

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3005, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. STRINGER:

 5        Q.   Was Kinez dressed like this when he came to that house with Mare

 6     when they got you away from those Chetniks?

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, yes.

 8        Q.   Now, after these events from November of 1991, did you ever have

 9     any subsequent encounters with this person, Kinez?

10        A.   Well, I encountered him in the Belgrade trial for the crimes

11     committed at Ovcara.  I testified in Belgrade then.  I recognised Kinez

12     because the Court asked me to identify him and Marko.  And I saw him

13     then, for the first time, after 1991.

14        Q.   Do you recall now what his -- what his real name is?

15        A.   Predrag Milojevic, nickname Kinez.

16        Q.   Now, having to watch the clock a little bit, Mr. Karlovic, so I

17     apologise in advance if -- if I have to cut you off because I want to

18     make sure we get through the outline in the time that's left.

19             And you've testified about this in your Mrksic testimony already

20     and so we don't need great detail.  But eventually did you then end up

21     back in this Stolarija at Velepromet; and, if so, how long did you stay

22     there?

23        A.   After Kinez and Mare got me out of that house, yet again, I was

24     returned under his escort and Mare's and there were some other JNA

25     soldiers there.  And I was returned to Velepromet and I stayed there for

Page 8682

 1     about three or four hours.  And sometime before midnight, the JNA,

 2     together with some of their officers, moved all the people from

 3     Velepromet to the Vukovar barracks, and that's where we spent the night.

 4     I'm talking about the 21st of November, 1991.

 5        Q.   And before then, the next day, the 22nd of November, after you

 6     came back to Velepromet, did you get any treatment for those wounds that

 7     you'd gotten during the encounter with the Chetniks?

 8        A.   Yes.  After the officer who transported all of us to the

 9     barracks, when he looked at me and when he saw all the injuries that I

10     had, I was taken to see a doctor who dressed my wounds and helped me in

11     every way he could.  That is where I was given that aid.

12        Q.   Now, the next day, the 22nd of November, Mr. Karlovic, can you

13     tell us what happened on that day?

14             And on this subject, I'm going to ask for more details because

15     you did not testify about this part in the Mrksic trial.

16        A.   On the 22nd of November, in the morning hours, we were driven

17     from the Vukovar barracks in a big bus between 60 and 70 of us.  We were

18     driven to Sremska Mitrovica.  During our trip, we stopped at Negoslavci,

19     Sid.  At any rate, the Serbs, who lived in these places, would come out.

20     Of course, we were met in a very hostile manner, swearing, insults,

21     et cetera.  Then we arrived at the Sremska Mitrovica prison.

22             We were taken out of the bus, were taken to a sports hall.

23     That's where we all had to strip totally.  We were frisked.

24             As far as I'm concerned personally, after they saw these wounds

25     on me and after I told them where these wounds had come from, that was

Page 8683

 1     the first time I was brutally beaten in Sremska Mitrovica.  After this

 2     beating -- so I was beaten while I was naked.  After that beating, I was

 3     taken outside.  I was the last one who remained in that hall.  I was

 4     taken outside.  And then we all had to lie in this field and the

 5     policemen, that is to say, the prison guards who worked at that prison,

 6     beat us, and there were a few military policemen there as well who also

 7     took part in the beating.  The beating was extremely brutal.

 8             Somehow I had this misfortune since I was from Zagreb.  They knew

 9     that I was from the National Guards Corps, and as soon as I uttered this

10     sentence that I was cut up by Chetniks, I was given special treatment.

11             After we were all beaten up, we were taken --

12        Q.   Excuse me.  I apologise.  Let me stop you right there just to ask

13     you a couple questions based on what you've said so far.

14             You said it was a pretty large group of you then, or it was

15     between 60 and 70 of you on this bus.  Where had all these other people

16     come from, or when were you put together with the other people who were

17     then transported to Sremska Mitrovica?

18        A.   Well, I'd like to go back to something to clarify the situation.

19             Already at Velepromet most of us were there, the ones that I've

20     been speaking about.  When we arrived at the Vukovar barracks, that is to

21     say that night on the 21st of November, late in the evening, when we

22     arrived at the barracks, already in the barracks there were a few people.

23     I don't know exactly how many.  My estimate is that the people from

24     Velepromet and the people that we already found at the barracks it wasn't

25     more than some 70 persons.  How do I make this estimate?  On the basis of

Page 8684

 1     the bus because I know that this bus was full.

 2             Everybody was sitting down and there were other people standing

 3     too.  So on the basis of that, I'm saying that that would be my estimate

 4     as to the number of persons involved.

 5             Would that do or ...

 6        Q.   Yes.  Do you know where these other people came from, the people

 7     that you eventually joined with during this time at Velepromet at the

 8     barracks?

 9        A.   Well, I don't know where they came from but these were local

10     people there Vukovar.  Probably they were taken prisoner in different

11     places.  I don't have any specific information on that.

12        Q.   Can you describe the uniforms, if you recall, of those people who

13     gave you the beating, the beatings on your arrival at Sremska Mitrovica?

14        A.   Well, the prison guards wore classical blue police uniforms.  And

15     the military police had their camouflage uniforms, except that they also

16     had these white belts and -- and shoulder straps.  That's what they wore.

17        Q.   And did both groups participate in the beating?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, they did it together.

19        Q.   What kind of -- what were the conditions of your confinement?

20     Where did they put you?

21        A.   First, I was at a particular facility for a few days.  I don't

22     know how to define the facility.  There were about 60 persons there.

23     There were mattresses on the floor.  The room was packed.  After those

24     initial few days, I was transferred to a big room in a different

25     facility.  There were about 180-something of us there.  The room was full

Page 8685

 1     of beds.  We had heating.  It was winter time.

 2             Within that room, there was a separate toilet facility with a

 3     sink.  We had three meals a day.  Truth to tell, they were rather poor,

 4     but it was three meals.  So people were taken out for interrogations

 5     regularly.  During those interrogations, people would mostly be beaten.

 6        Q.   Now, when your group arrived, were you the first prisoners to

 7     arrive, or were there prisoners there already?

 8        A.   Well, I was among the last ones.  There were many prisoners

 9     already in Mitrovica.

10        Q.   Did any of those other prisoners stay in the same room of about

11     180 people that you've just described?

12        A.   I'm sorry, I have to ask you something now.  You mean the group

13     that arrived with me?

14        Q.   I'm sorry.  The group that arrived with you -- let me -- I'll

15     start over.

16             There were other prisoners there when you arrived; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.  We're talking about the time when I had just arrived, the

19     first day.  Yes, there were already prisoners that were at Mitrovica.

20        Q.   Do you know where they had come from, what their path had been?

21        A.   Well, they could have only had the kind of path that I had taken,

22     from Vukovar to Sremska Mitrovica.  All of these were people who were

23     from Vukovar, who lived in Vukovar, fought in Vukovar.  There were quite

24     a few civilians.  Those were the people there.

25        Q.   And were all the prisoners held together in this room of 180?

Page 8686

 1        A.   Yes.  When I was separated into that big room, we were all there

 2     together, 180 of us.

 3             I would just like to add something on my own, if I may.  Maybe

 4     that will assist all of you.

 5             My transfer to this big room -- well, I didn't understand why

 6     that happened.  Because I was transferred to this room, where all the

 7     people were the people who were taken prisoner at Mitnica.  They had

 8     surrendered at Mitnica.  This was an independent group, independent of

 9     the town of Vukovar itself.  So from that first room where I was, I was

10     separated into this facility, and I was put up with these 180-something

11     persons who were all from Mitnica.

12             I just wanted to explain that, in order to assist.

13        Q.   Thank you.  How long approximately, then, did you stay in this

14     room of 180 people?

15        A.   About two months.  Perhaps a couple of days longer.

16        Q.   And during that period of time, did your group encounter any

17     people from the Serb side, apart from the guards?

18        A.   Well, we were taken out for interrogations all the time.  We saw

19     these guards.

20             I would just like to mention a delegation that visited us.

21     Perhaps it was already January 1992.  It so happened that a delegation

22     came to visit us from the then-occupied part of Croatia.  I can't even

23     remember what it was called, Western Srem or something like that.  They

24     came and visited us - I can go on - and I can say that Mr. Hadzic was in

25     that delegation.  I remember that.  And there were a few more people with

Page 8687

 1     him.  They toured this room.  Mr. Goran Hadzic did not say anything.  He

 2     just observed it and walked around.  Some people who accompanied him said

 3     things to people, taunted them.  Since these were people also from

 4     Vukovar, they knew our Croats from Vukovar so, simply, it could not have

 5     happened without these taunts, provocations.

 6        Q.   Do you know if -- or do you recall if Mr. Hadzic or this group

 7     was accompanied by any military personnel?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  They were escorted by the military police because they

 9     themselves wore uniforms too, camouflage uniforms.  They themselves were

10     in uniform, and the people who came with them, that is to say, the

11     Yugoslav army people, they accompanied them.  And also the military

12     policemen who were guarding us were there as well.

13        Q.   Do you recall how Mr. Hadzic was dressed?

14        A.   Well, I cannot give a detailed description now.  But as far as I

15     can remember, I think he was in uniform too and the entire delegation

16     was.  I think it was a camouflage uniform.  That would be it.

17        Q.   Now, you were not from the Vukovar area so how did you know it

18     was Goran Hadzic?

19        A.   Well, you see, Goran Hadzic was not a person who was unknown in

20     Croatia.  I was involved in the war.  I was involved in what was

21     happening.  Irrespective of my age, I knew very well who Goran Hadzic

22     was.  Also, in addition to that, there were people in my room who were

23     from Vukovar, who knew him, and there was no way I could have made a

24     mistake, not known.  So it's those two reasons.

25             I can also just add that I remember his arrest in Plitvice.  This

Page 8688

 1     was in the media.  That's why I'm saying that he was well-known in

 2     Croatia, as far as the Serb rebellion with concerned.

 3        Q.   At some point, were you and the others registered with the

 4     International Red Cross?

 5        A.   Yes.  After a while, we were transferred from these other rooms

 6     to the first rooms that I had come from.  And then we were registered

 7     with the Red Cross.

 8        Q.   How long approximately did you stay in this room of 180?  I may

 9     have asked you this already.

10        A.   Yes, you have asked me already.  I spent about two months in that

11     room.

12        Q.   And from there, then, where did you go?

13        A.   We went to another facility, another room, where we were

14     registered by the Red Cross.  Evidently there was a reason why we had

15     been separated for a while and hidden in those rooms.

16        Q.   And then when you moved to this third location, third location

17     within Sremska Mitrovica, can you just briefly describe for us the

18     conditions during that period.

19        A.   Well, the conditions were similar to the ones that were there

20     before.  It was a smallish room, 60 persons, a lot of commotion.  We

21     slept like sardines.  I repeat again:  We had three small meals per day.

22     We had heating during the winter.  We had a toilet facility with a sink

23     where we could get water.  There were interrogations that took place

24     every day.  We were beaten during the interrogations because they would

25     always find a reason to beat people.  And I can say that in addition to

Page 8689

 1     it the fact that we were squeezed into that room and that we had very

 2     little food, the greatest problem was this torture, these beatings.

 3        Q.   Do you recall which personnel were involved in these

 4     interrogations and beatings, what units or groups they were part of?

 5        A.   Well, the entire process of interrogation was carried out by

 6     intelligence officers.  There were officers.  They even introduced

 7     themselves by rank, from captain, major, colonel.  There were even some

 8     non-commissioned ranks.  Mainly those were JNA officers.  The beatings

 9     were somehow divided between the military policemen, that is to say

10     soldiers, and sometimes even the officers beat people themselves.

11        Q.   During the time when Mr. Hadzic came with the delegation, did any

12     members of the delegation make statements about what they -- what would

13     happen, what was planned for those of you?

14        A.   I will tell you about a question that a person, a man from that

15     delegation, asked.

16             He asked, How are you doing?  Is it warm enough for you here?

17     Some people answered, Yes, yes.  And then he added, You will be warmer

18     when you come to us.  One man was holding a cigarette, and he asked one

19     of us, Croats, How about putting out this cigarette in the palm of your

20     hand?  But fortunately that did not happen.  There were other

21     provocations, more taunts from other people from the entourage.

22        Q.   Now, you referred to the statement about things getting warmer

23     when you went to them.  Was there any more information or indication of

24     what was intended?  What did they intend would take place?

25        A.   I can't remember exactly.  Quite simply, we somehow got this


Page 8690

 1     information that our group was supposed to be transferred to that

 2     Autonomous District of Western Srem for the trial that was supposed to

 3     be -- take place in Vukovar.  We -- we had that information.  And the

 4     visit of that delegation, including Goran Hadzic and his team, and all

 5     those words, and little provocations could only be a confirmation of

 6     that.

 7             After we were all registered by the International Red Cross, we

 8     became aware that that, indeed, was the plan, that a group from

 9     Sremska Mitrovica be transferred to Vukovar for that new trial or

10     something.

11        Q.   Were you eventually ever transferred back to Vukovar?

12        A.   No.  After I was registered by the Red Cross, on the

13     22nd of May, 1992, I was exchanged in an all-for-all exchange, and that

14     was the end of the story with Sremska Mitrovica.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Karlovic.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic for cross-examination.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Karlovic.  My name is

22     Zoran Zivanovic.  I am the Defence counsel for Mr. Goran Hadzic in these

23     proceedings.

24        A.   Good day.

25        Q.   I should like to stick to two subjects you testified about.

Page 8691

 1             First of all, I will ask you to provide some clarification

 2     concerning your testimony about your stay at Ovcara.

 3             As I understood your testimony, you were there while it was still

 4     day, so you were able to observe what was going on around you.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you said you had set off from Ovcara when it was already

 7     getting dark.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I'll show you a report we received from the astronomical

10     observatory because I know you were hard put to define a time frame as to

11     when you came and when you left.  And you will see that on the

12     20th of November the time of sunrise and sunset.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see D89, please.

14        Q.   These are reports for the 19th, 20th, and 21st.  We are

15     interested in the 20th because you were there on the 20th of November.

16     And you'll see in line 3 the time of sunset, it's 1610 hours.  And the

17     duration of dusk is until 1644.  And then the night begins.

18             Can you tell me, in view of the various times you mentioned from

19     memory, would you agree that you could have left Ovcara at this time,

20     when dusk begins approximately, or while it was still only getting dark,

21     during dusk, before 1645 -- 4?

22        A.   All the times I provided were estimates.  I only said exactly

23     when we arrived at Ovcara because I knew that.  And as for the time of

24     departure, I oriented myself by the amount of light.  And I can accept it

25     was at about a quarter to 5.00 in the afternoon, if that's what science

Page 8692

 1     says.

 2        Q.   You also said that while you were outside the hangar, a group of

 3     JNA officers drove in at Ovcara; there were three or four of them.  And

 4     you gave us a more detailed account of the incident involving the boy

 5     whose mother interceded for him to be saved from the hangar.

 6             You mentioned several names, or you were unable to recall the

 7     names.  But can you remember - because we don't have it here on the

 8     record - do you remember the rank of the person who said, I saved this

 9     child?  Did he mention his rank?

10        A.   I remember he mentioned colonel.  That's from my memory.  He

11     could have been lieutenant-colonel, but a colonel was certainly

12     mentioned.

13        Q.   I noticed that you mentioned this same rank of colonel in your

14     previous testimony as well.  You mentioned names Ivankovic, Ivanovic,

15     Jovanovic.  You were not sure about his surname.

16             I'd like to know if the name Kijanovic rings a bell?

17        A.   To be quite honest with you, I heard that surname somewhere, but

18     I can't be sure now.  I told you about Vukovar, and I did some research

19     and reading myself later.  That surname is somewhere in my head, but I

20     can't place it.

21        Q.   During your time at Ovcara, you saw certain vehicles coming and

22     going, standing there.  Could you give us some details, if you can

23     remember, what kind of vehicles were they?

24        A.   Most of the vehicles were military vehicles.  As for other types,

25     right now I can't remember.  I know, at any rate, there were different

Page 8693

 1     types of military vehicles.

 2        Q.   You also mentioned -- in fact, can you tell me now while you were

 3     at Ovcara, that is to say before you left, you observed those officers

 4     who were there.  You saw those military vehicles.  Was that situation

 5     unchanged all the time while you were there?

 6        A.   The officers were there all the time.  They oversaw the whole

 7     situation.  They walked around.

 8        Q.   You said a lot about this in your prior testimony, but let me ask

 9     you again:  Do you have the impression that the officers who were present

10     there had control over the situation?  Did they issue any orders that

11     were obeyed by all the others who were there?

12        A.   My main assertion in my testimony about that event was that the

13     supervision, the organisational aspect and the planning aspect was

14     totally in control of the Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA officers, and,

15     of course, there were people there who executed, but the absolute control

16     over that situation was in the hands of the Yugoslav People's Army.

17        Q.   There's perhaps one thing that remains unclear on the record.

18     It's on page 22 when you spoke about leaving Ovcara.

19             You said - at least that's what's on the record - there was

20     somebody called Dr. Ivankovic.  You were talking about his son.  But was

21     Dr. Ivankovic also in that bus?

22        A.   No.  I was talking all the time about Dr. Ivankovic's son.

23        Q.   And since you mentioned the same surname also when you were

24     talking about that colonel, that was neither Dr. Ivankovic nor his son?

25        A.   No, no.

Page 8694

 1        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you a photograph, P1076, a photograph or a

 2     freeze of a soldier closing the hangar, and you said you had seen that

 3     man up at Ovcara.

 4             Were you able to see, did he have a rank?

 5        A.   No, I don't remember a rank.

 6        Q.   And I noticed one other thing.  On page 26, line 9, you mentioned

 7     in that context, although I don't believe it's on the record, a certain

 8     Safet from Doboj.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Because the name is not recorded correctly.  Could you explain

11     once again who that Safet from Doboj was.

12        A.   He was a Muslim who was a volunteer, and whose ideology was that

13     he was fighting for and saving Yugoslavia, and that's why he was a

14     volunteer in Vukovar on the Serb side.

15        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you P3005, which is a photograph.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see that once again.

17        Q.   You identified this man whose face is encircled here.  Can you

18     see in the background these men who are also standing apparently wearing

19     uniforms?  Because you were put to some trouble earlier and today

20     concerning the distinction between members of the JNA, the Chetniks, the

21     Territorial Defence, et cetera.

22             Can you tell me, from their appearance, how would you denote this

23     man whose face is encircled as a member of a certain establishment or

24     unit, regardless of what you later learned about him.

25        A.   Look, while that all was going on, while Kinez was rescuing me,

Page 8695

 1     by the way he was dressed and his demeanour, I decided that he did not

 2     belong to the Yugoslav People's Army, that he was one of Seselj's Men.

 3     There is a reason why he was dressed like that, but I don't know that

 4     it's important now.

 5        Q.   When you see these other two soldiers in the back, from your

 6     entire views and -- and ideas about this, how would you identify them?

 7     Where would you put him?  In -- in which group?

 8        A.   Also somewhere in the JNA.  I don't know whether they would be

 9     reservists or active duty, but they would be JNA.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see 1D834, please.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll show you just one more picture in the same

12     context.

13             Look at these two soldiers.  I think you can see their helmets.

14     You can even see the emblems on their helmets, although it's not very

15     clear.  You can see something red on the helmets.

16             Can you see it?

17        A.   I see it.  But, to be quite honest, I am a bit colour-blind, so I

18     have a problem with colours red and green.  I see some kind of spot,

19     though, a stain.

20             I wouldn't talk about the right one because I can't see anything

21     about the helmet.  And the left one, I would put in the JNA.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go back to that officer who told that woman

23     that he had saved her child.

24             Can you tell the Chamber -- you described his appearance, his

25     height, and you said, among other things, that his hair was already grey.

Page 8696

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Does that mean he was getting on in age?

 3        A.   Well, grey hair doesn't necessarily mean advanced age.  Now that

 4     I'm 43, even 60-year-olds do not look old to me.  I would estimate his

 5     age around 50.

 6        Q.   Apart from the time when he took that child out of the hangar,

 7     did you see him in some other situations?  Did he do anything else?

 8        A.   He was there all the time.  He was there, together with a major.

 9     I can't say that he did anything particular apart from saving that child.

10     They looked as if they had a supervisory role in that whole story.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now go back to Sremska Mitrovica.

12             I read your earlier statements and your testimony, and I did not

13     notice that you had mentioned before this delegation from Slavonia,

14     Baranja, and Western Srem and the arrival of Goran Hadzic at

15     Sremska Mitrovica.  Could you just explain how come that you mention it

16     now?  In fact, not now.  You told the Prosecutor about it last summer.

17        A.   If you have read my statements, you will notice that I said very

18     little about Velepromet and very little about Sremska Mitrovica.  The

19     reason was that I am supposed to talk in court only about the things they

20     ask me.  I can't tell my whole story from beginning to end.  That's the

21     reason why I just skimmed over Velepromet and Sremska Mitrovica both.

22        Q.   That would be all.  Thank you, Mr. Karlovic.

23        A.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

25             Mr. Stringer, anything in re-direct?


Page 8697

 1             MR. STRINGER:  No -- no, Your Honour.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Karlovic, this is the end of your testimony.

 4     We thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal, even in

 5     these circumstances.  You're now released as a witness, and we wish you a

 6     safe journey back to your country.  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I wish all the best to

 8     all of you too.  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If there's nothing else, court adjourned.

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.54 a.m.

12                           sine die.