Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8910

 1                           Thursday, 17 October 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in -- in and around the

 6     courtroom, and in Osijek.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President.

14             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Case Manager

15     Thomas Laugel, legal intern Mirela Bogdanovic Nikcevic.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  I think the parties have been told

21     that there is a problem with the videolink and more particularly an

22     encrypting issue.  That means that we can't go into private session with

23     Osijek.

24             Now my question is:  Do you have anything in private session in

25     chief and in cross?

Page 8911

 1             Mr. Stringer.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  No, Your Honour.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  There's

 4     no expectation of such a need.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  That's solved, then.  The only thing we

 6     need to do, then, is to be very careful about eventually redactions

 7     because redactions should be asked for in private session and we can't go

 8     into private session.  So please be careful.

 9             The witness may -- the witness is already in, of course.

10             Good morning to you, Madam Registrar, in Osijek.

11             Mr. Stringer.  Oh, sorry.  I, of course, have to ask for the

12     solemn declaration.  The witness has no protective measures.

13             Good morning -- good morning, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me in a

14     language you understand?

15             Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Thank you for coming to Osijek to

16     assist the Tribunal.  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

17             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't have translation of what the witness

19     says.

20             Mr. Witness, could you -- could you say "test, test"?  Oh, that's

21     not very useful.  We need something to be translated.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you well.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you -- thank you very much.

24             Mr. Witness, could you please tell us your name and your date of

25     birth?


Page 8912

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ljubo Pribudic; 5th of April, 1940.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             You are about to make the solemn declaration, by which witnesses

 4     commit themselves to tell the truth.  I must point out to you that by

 5     doing so, you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury should you give

 6     false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.

 7             Could I ask you to read the solemn declaration now.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  This sound from Osijek is very bad.  We

11     couldn't hear the last part of the solemn declaration.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, could you please repeat the

13     declaration.  There was a problem with the sound.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  LJUBO PRIBUDIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           [Witness testified via videolink]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Stringer.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Examination by Mr. Stringer:

23        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, this is Doug Stringer in the courtroom in

24     The Hague.  Can you see me and understand me?

25        A.   I can see you very well, and I hear you.

Page 8913

 1        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, where did you live in 1991?

 2        A.   In 1991, I lived in Vukovar.

 3        Q.   And at that time, were you married?  Did you have a family?

 4        A.   Married, wife, four children, and me.

 5        Q.   How old were you then?

 6        A.   I'm 73 now, and in 1991, I would have been, what, 51.

 7        Q.   And back in 1991, Mr. Pribudic, how were you employed?

 8        A.   I was a craftsman.  I had my own private work-shop, ever since

 9     1963.  I had my own work-shop.

10        Q.   What kind of craft did you practice?

11        A.   I had a work-shop for repairing, mounting, and maintenance of all

12     sorts of weighing scales.

13        Q.   All right.  And did your work on the scales take you to other

14     parts of what was then Yugoslavia?

15        A.   Yes, I went everywhere; Macedonia, Slovenia, all of Croatia.

16     Wherever they called me, I went there.  And I had a very good reputation

17     because we worked honestly and fast.

18        Q.   Did you know Goran Hadzic before the war?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Had you ever seen him or had you ever heard anything about

21     Mr. Hadzic before the war?

22        A.   No, nothing.

23        Q.   Now --

24        A.   But his director at Pacetin was the director of the kombinat,

25     Mladen Brkic.

Page 8914

 1        Q.   Could you say that name again, please.

 2        A.   Mladen Mrkic, M-r-k-i-c.

 3        Q.   Did you know Mr. --

 4        A.   He was the director of Kooperacija.  Yes.

 5        Q.   So you did know him?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And when you said - I'm just looking at our transcript -

 8     that his director was the director of kombinat.  Who was Mr. Mrkic the

 9     director of?

10        A.   Mr. Mrkic was the director of Mr. Hadzic and all co-operatives

11     around Vukovar, such as at Trpinja, Pacetin, and other villages.

12        Q.   All right.  Mr. Pribudic, during the months of autumn 1991, did

13     you participate in the defence of Vukovar as a fighter or as a defender?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Could you tell the Judges, please, in just a few words what you

16     did.

17        A.   Where?  When?  During the war?

18        Q.   Yes.  In what way did you contribute to the defence.

19        A.   I worked at the staff.  I took food to the people who were in

20     basements.  I guarded places at night.  And I was in the basement of the

21     former Hungarian school.

22        Q.   Where was your family during that time?

23        A.   My family was partly in Germany, and my wife was with me.  And my

24     daughters were with their husbands, one was in Zagreb.

25        Q.   And you mentioned the basement of the former Hungarian school.

Page 8915

 1     Was that located close to your house?

 2        A.   It was two houses away.

 3        Q.   Can you tell the Judges the name --

 4        A.   At the very beginning, I was in my own basement.

 5        Q.   What street was your house and the Hungarian school located on?

 6        A.   Stjepana Radica Street.

 7        Q.   About how far away was that from the hospital in Vukovar?

 8        A.   A kilometre.  And the hospital is still at the same place.  And

 9     the house is still there, but now it's a police station.

10        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, could you please tell the Judges what happened then

11     on the 18th of November, 1991.

12        A.   Vukovar fell and then the army moved in.  We were almost out of

13     food already, and then the army lined up everyone on the street and took

14     us to Velepromet.

15        Q.   How many people were in your group that was taken to Velepromet

16     on that day?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The sound is so bad that

18     it's unintelligible.

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, I'm sorry, but with the technical problem, we did

21     not get your last answer.  Could I just ask you to tell us how many

22     people were in your group when you were taken to Velepromet?

23        A.   I don't know the exact number, but there were many people,

24     perhaps as many as 500, or even more, counting the women and children

25     too.  There were many of us.

Page 8916

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, we'll talk about things that happened while you were

 2     at Velepromet.  But could you first tell the Judges how many days or how

 3     many nights, then, did you spend in Velepromet before you were moved?

 4        A.   Three nights, the 18th, 19th, 20th.  Yeah, three nights at

 5     Velepromet.

 6        Q.   Now, when you arrived at Velepromet, where were you placed?

 7        A.   When we arrived at Velepromet we were separated, and I was put in

 8     the so-called room of death.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  With the usher's assistance, I'd ask that

10     Mr. Pribudic be provided with 65 ter 2802, which is an aerial image.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the entire building.

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   All right.  Now, are you -- Mr. Pribudic --

14        A.   The white area here.

15        Q.   -- let me just ask you a couple of questions.

16             First of all, this photograph that you're looking at, do you

17     recognise what this place is?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot understand.

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, let me ask you just to stop there.

21             MR. STRINGER:  I don't know whether there's a problem with the

22     volume, whether it might be better if the microphone was moved closer to

23     him or not, whether that's an issue.

24        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, if I could just ask you to tell us, in general,

25     what does this picture show?

Page 8917

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It is unintelligible.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I'm in your hands.  I don't know

 3     what to do.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm trying to get an image from Osijek, because

 5     that's generally -- generally one can see whether it works or not, the

 6     videolink, I mean.  But obviously we don't get an image.  Oh, there it

 7     is.

 8             Try once again, Mr. Stringer.  I think we are back in business.

 9             MR. STRINGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, on this photograph, do you see the location of the

11     room of death that you mentioned?

12        A.   I think it must be here, on this side.  Here, this is the

13     carpentry, and these are the hangars made of -- they're made of sheet

14     metal.  They were called the tin cans.  This is the Velepromet yard.

15     Only I don't know what the white -- this thing here in front of the

16     building.

17        Q.   Could I ask to you take a pen or a marker and to place a circle

18     around the area of the room of death.

19        A.   This is the entrance.  This is that building where ... this is

20     the auxiliary building.  I don't know what this is.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. STRINGER:  If -- with the Registrar's assistance, perhaps, if

23     we could just be shown the photograph, we can get an idea roughly of the

24     location that's been marked.

25             Okay.  Thank you.

Page 8918

 1        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, during the time that you were in the room of death

 2     on the 18th, can you tell the Judges what happened, in general?  What was

 3     taking place and what were the conditions like in there?

 4        A.   The conditions were catastrophical.  The number of people

 5     increased from minute to minute.  And it's hard to say, but there must

 6     have been more than 200 of us inside.  It was unbearable.  And that was

 7     how it was until midnight.  After midnight, they started taking people

 8     out, taking them taking them somewhere, but whoever was taken out was

 9     gone for good.

10        Q.   Were you ever able -- or at that time did you learn or -- or get

11     any information about what was happening to those people?

12        A.   Nobody ever told me anything, but those guys never returned.  And

13     shots could be heard.  Whenever someone was taken out, there was a shot

14     or a burst of fire.

15        Q.   Did you know someone in that room who was named Ivo, who worked

16     as a carpenter?

17        A.   Ivo.  Carpenter.  There was a guy named Ivo, but he was a wood

18     cutter.  But I didn't know any carpenter by that name.

19        Q.   At some --

20        A.   Yes, there was a wood cutter by the name of Ivo.

21        Q.   Do you know what happened to him?

22        A.   Killed.

23        Q.   How do you know that?

24        A.   What does that mean?  He got killed.  He was taken out and

25     killed.

Page 8919

 1        Q.   Did you ever see him after he was killed?

 2        A.   I saw him lying dead by the tracks of Velepromet.

 3        Q.   Now, on the next day, the 19th of November, were you moved to a

 4     different location?

 5        A.   The 19th.  Cvjeticanin moved me to the carpentry.  It was in the

 6     same building.  There was a hallway that divided the two.

 7        Q.   And can you describe the situation there in the carpentry on the

 8     19th.

 9        A.   In the carpentry on the 19th, there were mostly women.  A couple

10     of men.  And when I entered, the women were taken out and taken away by

11     buses.  I and two more men stayed behind.  During the night, women were

12     arriving, and men too, but they didn't stay long.

13        Q.   And then the next day, the 20th of November, were you then -- at

14     that time, in the morning, were you still in the carpentry?

15        A.   On the 19th of November, three men came in and first started

16     beating me inside, and then they took me out and beat me unconscious.  I

17     had some money in my pockets, some German money.  They took it all.  They

18     also took my coat and my stock -- stockings.

19             I was unconscious outside.  When I woke up before dawn, I saw

20     that I was in the room of death.  I was lying, and I looked at the man

21     beside me.  It was Zeljko Buljan.  He said, Don't be afraid.  I'm here

22     too.  And I stayed there until morning.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Pribudic, you've indicated that when you woke up then

24     after the beating, you were back in this room of death.  In addition to

25     Mr. Buljan, were there other people there that you -- that you knew?

Page 8920

 1        A.   There was Drago Vertofer [phoen].  There was Ivo Vidaj,

 2     Jozo Sidl.  Ferhan Perkovic, we called him Little Perkan at school.  He

 3     was also taken out and killed.  And on the second day or the second

 4     night, they crammed 18 of us on a bus and took us to Mitrovica.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Pribudic, before you were taken to Mitrovica, were you

 6     and the others taken to a different location first?

 7        A.   No, not then.  To Negoslavci and there we waited about an hour to

 8     be admitted.  And then from Negoslavci to --

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One moment, Mr. Witness.

10             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm sorry to interrupt, but I believe there might

12     be a transcription mistake there at line 23, as far as the name that was

13     mentioned.

14             MR. STRINGER:  I appreciate that.

15        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, you were giving us the names of some of the other

16     people who were in that room of death.  You mentioned a Drago.  What was

17     his family name?

18        A.   Verkofer [phoen].  Dragutin Verkofer.

19        Q.   How were you transported to Sremska Mitrovica?

20        A.   By bus.

21        Q.   And where in Vukovar were you placed on the buses?

22        A.   We boarded the buses at the barracks.  First, we were taken

23     there.  And when we arrived at the barracks, hungry and thirsty, they

24     gave us bread and water and canned food and cigarettes.  I don't smoke

25     but another man, Vlado, said to me, Take some for me too.  And I was

Page 8921

 1     surprised.  I was very thirsty.  I emptied an entire pitcher of water.

 2     And around 7.00 in the morning, we were put on buses where we stayed

 3     until 9.00 and then we were taken to Mitrovica.

 4        Q.   Now, are you able to recall the date then that you were taken to

 5     Sremska Mitrovica?

 6        A.   The date.  Was it the 20th or the 21st?  It was the 21st, at

 7     dawn.

 8        Q.   And what was your condition?  You mentioned that you had been

 9     beaten while at Velepromet.  What was your condition at the time that you

10     were being transported to Sremska Mitrovica?

11        A.   I was all beaten up.  My head was bashed in.  When we reached

12     Buljani, I woke up and I saw blood running down my face.  I saw that

13     there was a lid next to a bucket where -- that we used to relieve

14     ourselves, so I took the lid --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat what he said

16     then.  The interpreters didn't understand.

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   Could I just ask you to tell us again what you did with the lid

19     that you were referring to.

20        A.   The lid was actually a lid of a large tin that they provided us

21     with to relieve ourselves in.  I don't know if it was clean or not, but

22     at any rate, it was wet.  I broke it in half and then bent it again, and

23     I used it as a stitch, in fact, to stitch up the wound in my head, and

24     that's how I kept it then throughout the time.

25        Q.   Could you tell the Judges what happened when you and the others

Page 8922

 1     arrived at Sremska Mitrovica.

 2        A.   When we arrived in Mitrovica, we stood there in the centre for

 3     quite a long time.  I think more than two hours.  There were individuals

 4     boarding the bus, but they didn't take us out.  They had batons that they

 5     hit us with on our shoulders and our heads.

 6             When we reached the KP Dom at Mitrovica, they took us out into a

 7     basketball court.  It was a concrete surface and they told us to lie

 8     prone on it.  There was pouring rain.  We lay there for quite a long

 9     time.  Then they told us, Get up.  And they forced us to run a gauntlet.

10     There were was a fence there and there were two lines of people, and you

11     had to run as fast as your feet carried you, otherwise you would get so

12     many blows that you would fall down and not be able to get up.

13             I received a blow to my head by a baton.  I was knocked off my

14     feet but I managed to get up and run the gauntlet to the end.  Then we

15     reached a patch of green.  They told us that we should sit down and take

16     our shoes off.  Then they started beating us by giving us blows to our

17     soles, the soles of our feet, and kept on hitting us all the way up our

18     body.  I must tell you that it's unbearable pain to be hit around your

19     knees.  One of the men fainted.  It was the little Soljic.  Then they

20     told us to get up and approach a building there.  I think it's number --

21     building number one, if I recall correctly.  There was rain and a culvert

22     that was full of running water.  They told us to lie prone and put our

23     faces into the culvert.  Now, we, of course, had to lift our heads from

24     time to time because we couldn't bear staying under water.

25             One of them said, Captain comrade, referring to one of us, this

Page 8923

 1     one is not moving.  He's finished.  He is as dead as a doornail.  And

 2     then he told him, Dusko, okay, bring a truck over to gate 1.  And I

 3     thought, we're done for now.  As the truck came, they told us that we

 4     should go into the building in threes.  They asked me to carry Veber, the

 5     one who couldn't get up, and as we got in -- upstairs into the room, I

 6     fell asleep.

 7        Q.   You mentioned someone named Soljic, I believe little Soljic.  Do

 8     you know what became of him?

 9        A.   Little Soljic.  He died.  He died.

10        Q.   Now, after you were inside, could you tell the Judges about the

11     room or the rooms where you and other prisoners were held.

12        A.   In Mitrovica, you mean?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   What was it like.  Well, it was a room.  The heating was on, and

15     I suppose they did it on purpose.  It was winter time.  They opened

16     windows that were high up, overhead, so you had this cold air coming from

17     up -- from up there.  And then it was very hot as well.  It was the first

18     building, I think, and they laid it out with an asphalt surface.  So we

19     were lying down on it, rolling on it, like pigs.

20        Q.   Were there any beds in this room?

21        A.   Not in the first one, no.  There were blankets on the floor, and

22     we were lying one next to the other.  When we went to the fourth room,

23     which was at the end of the the corridor, there you had very narrow bunk

24     beds.  I was lying on the bed below.

25        Q.   Now, in this first room you've described, approximately how many

Page 8924

 1     prisoners were there?

 2        A.   At least 200.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4        A.   We were lying cheek by jaw, like sardines.  If you had to go and

 5     relieve yourself at night, you had to step over someone and then you

 6     would fall over them.  It was a sea of human bodies.

 7        Q.   And then the other room that you described that had the beds,

 8     approximately how many people were in that room?

 9        A.   All the rooms were overcrowded.  Not just the one where I was.

10        Q.   Could you describe the uniforms worn by the guards who were

11     working at the prison and who participated in beatings?

12        A.   The uniforms --

13             MR. GOSNELL:  Your Honour, objection --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  It's compound and leading.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Well, he's just talked about some beatings, I

17     believed.  We'll go back to it.  I apologise for the compound question.

18        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, you described a beating that occurred upon your

19     arrival.  Do you recall what types of uniforms they were wearing?  The

20     people who were giving you the beating.

21        A.   Those who received us were wearing blue uniforms.  I don't know

22     if they were also the ones beating us.  I didn't dare raise my head.  But

23     I think they had blue uniforms.

24        Q.   And then during the time that you were being held in the rooms

25     and -- and were otherwise there, what, in general, did the guards wear?

Page 8925

 1        A.   The guards who came wore olive-drab camouflage uniforms.  Some of

 2     them also had white belt -- belts, and we surmised that they were

 3     policemen, and they were mostly Montenegrins.  But they had olive-drab

 4     uniforms, the uniforms of the Yugoslav Army.

 5        Q.   Were there any other times when groups were taken for beatings?

 6        A.   They took out one by one.  I don't know what they did with each

 7     and every one of them.  At any rate, some of them would come back black

 8     and blue.  Others would come back crying.  At any rate, none of those who

 9     returned had not been beaten.

10        Q.   Were you ever taken outside again for any beatings?

11        A.   I was taken out when Hadzic was beating me up.  Other than that,

12     they didn't take us -- take me out for beatings.  They would take us out

13     for interrogations with a general and a -- and another individual.  I

14     knew him.  I knew the general from the army.  And there was a major as

15     well.  And then I also received a -- a blow from a sergeant.  So that was

16     just that one blow.  As for the general, he didn't beat me.  He even

17     offered me a shot of brandy.

18             Since I was ill at the time, they did take me out.  I had to rest

19     my back against a wall and -- and spread my arms and stand like that.

20        Q.   Now, you mentioned an encounter you had with Mr. Hadzic.  Could

21     you tell the Judges, please, as best as can you remember now when that

22     happened?  Was it in 1991 or ... after the 1st of the year, in 1992?

23        A.   It all happened in 1991.  I was released on the -- the 2nd of

24     July.  But they didn't beat me.  Hadzic was the last one who beat me up.

25        Q.   Can you tell the Judges what happened when you met Mr. Hadzic

Page 8926

 1     there.

 2        A.   What happened.  How he beat me personally.  He came to a room

 3     that was smaller, shorter than yours, but of the same breadth.  He came

 4     and he says, Oh, there you are, Ljubo, the scalesman.  He said -- I said

 5     yes.  So he stepped toward a desk where there were three persons seated.

 6     One was called Stankovic and for the others, I'm not sure.  Stankovic was

 7     in my group.  I was a hunter, and I had my own group, and he was a member

 8     of my group at the time.

 9             Hadzic stepped toward the desk and they said, His dossier is

10     fine.  Because they were reading through all my particulars, first, last

11     name, father, et cetera.  And he turned back to me and said, Which side

12     of the face did they slap you on?  And I said, This one.  And then he

13     slapped me on the other side.  And he said, Just so you're not beaten

14     always on the same side.

15             Then he stepped out of the room but he came back a minute later.

16     And then he said to me, Does Mrkic owe you money?  I said, No, but he did

17     take -- I did loan him money but every time he paid back whenever he said

18     that he would.

19        Q.   All right.  Mr. Pribudic, let me ask you there to just tell us,

20     apart from yourself, were there any other prisoners present during this

21     questioning, or this meeting?

22        A.   I was -- I was the only one in the room.

23        Q.   Do you recall what Mr. Hadzic was wearing?

24        A.   A camouflage uniform.

25        Q.   You now just made a reference to someone named Mrkic.  Is this

Page 8927

 1     the same person that you mentioned at the beginning of your evidence

 2     today?

 3        A.   It's the same Mrkic.  His director.  Because, on Fridays and

 4     Mondays, the four of us would meet up and --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear because the line

 6     was very poor.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.

 8        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, we lost the very end of your -- of your sentence

 9     there.  You say Mr. Mrkic was the director of Mr. Hadzic at his

10     employment.

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, did -- you say Mr. Hadzic then stepped out of

13     the room.  Did he return?

14        A.   Which gentleman?

15        Q.   Mr. Hadzic.

16        A.   Hadzic.  He stepped out of the room and then went back in.  I was

17     under the impression that there was someone in the room next door who

18     would be feeding him information.  He would come back and then ask me,

19     Where is your HDZ membership card?  I replied, At Velepromet.  He said,

20     How come you have an HDZ membership card?  You don't go much to the

21     church.  You're not a Communist.  And then he turned back to leave when I

22     replied, But I'm a Croat.  And then he turned around dealt me a blow

23     rather than a slap.

24             And then -- what did he say?  He -- yes, he swore at me,

25     mentioning my mother.

Page 8928

 1        Q.   Did the subject of your children come up?

 2        A.   And then went back out.  But then he would come back to the room

 3     again and ask me, Where are your sons?  I told him, I don't know.

 4     They're in Germany.  He asked, They're not over here.  I replied, Goran,

 5     if they're here, then you should kill me and them.  I said to that, I'll

 6     kill them both, and went out.

 7             This was very hard on me.  My brain was thinking fast.  And I was

 8     thinking what I should do.  When he comes back, perhaps I should plan --

 9     lunge for his neck and then try and strangle him.  And then there was

10     this man Ljubo holding a Kalashnikov.  He trained it against me and

11     threatened me, at which point Hadzic came to the room again.  The man who

12     was sitting at the desk told me, Ljubo, straighten up a bit.  He realised

13     that I would actually drop to the floor.  So I stood up and Hadzic said

14     to that, Who allowed you to stand up?  The man at the desk said, I did.

15     And then one of the four said, Gorane, it's been enough.  And then the

16     man who used to man the gate said, Take him out.  And that was where my

17     ordeal ended.

18        Q.   Now, you told us earlier that you didn't -- you did not know

19     Mr. Hadzic from before, so how did you know that this was him?

20        A.   It was the four of the men who mentioned him.  One of them was

21     called Savic.  And then there was this young lad as well, and the man

22     carrying a Kalashnikov, as well as a person who used to be in the hangar.

23     He was the one charged with the paperwork, with the dossier.  He

24     addressed him as Goran.  And judging by his looks and his conduct, I

25     concluded that it was him.  But I didn't have an opportunity to see him

Page 8929

 1     before.

 2        Q.   Now, you mentioned a person named Stankovic and you mentioned the

 3     hunting group.  Do you know what his role was in this -- in this meeting?

 4        A.   I have no idea.

 5        Q.   What was his position, if you know?

 6        A.   I don't know.  He was a young man who had come to -- and joined

 7     my group several months previously.  I would not have known that he was

 8     called Stankovic had it not been for my friend Cuk who said, Well, he's a

 9     young man, he's a judge, and he said --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter isn't sure if it was a judge.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he said, Well, why don't we let

12     him join our group.

13             MR. STRINGER:

14        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, what was the -- did you learn what was the job or

15     the position of Mr. Stankovic?

16        A.   He asked me about a Hungarian and I said I don't know.  And he

17     told me then, Well, how come you don't know him?  He is a hunter as well.

18     And, well, I said, You're a hunter, I can't know them all.

19        Q.   Are you able to tell us, if you know or if you heard, what was

20     the job or the position of Mr. Stankovic?

21        A.   I don't know.  If he was a judge, then he must have gone through

22     some schooling.  There were about five or six of them coming that year.

23     I don't know.

24        Q.   Why do you say that he might -- he may have been a judge?

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection.  Because that's not exactly what the

Page 8930

 1     witness said [Microphone not activated].

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that he was a judge.  Now

 3     was he or was he not, I don't know.  Cuk told me that he was a judge.

 4             MR. STRINGER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, how long, then, did you remain a prisoner at

 6     Sremska Mitrovica?

 7        A.   It was from the 7th of April, so from the 20th or the 21st up

 8     until the 7th of April, 1992.

 9        Q.   Now, after you were released, did you find your family?

10        A.   I found them all in Zagreb.  I came to Zagreb, and there I found

11     my wife and children.

12        Q.   Can you tell us just briefly what had -- what had been her -- her

13     path from Vukovar to Zagreb during the time that you were away.

14        A.   My wife left Vukovar from Velepromet by bus.  She went from

15     Velepromet to Sid where she spent the night, and she saw a note on the

16     desk in Sid which said, If Ljubo, the scalesman, should come here, kill

17     him right away.  She saw that note.

18             And then, what, the five of them went out.  It was raining.

19     There was a neighbour of ours, Danica.  She said, You can come out.  And

20     she then went to Tuzla and somehow she found a bus that took her to

21     Zagreb via Slavonski Brod.  So that's it, in a nutshell.

22        Q.   Could you tell the Judges, please, Mr. Pribudic, what has been

23     the impact of all these events on you and your family and your community

24     in Vukovar in the years since?

25        A.   It was miserable.  I didn't want to leave Vukovar because I


Page 8931

 1     thought who would do me any harm?  Everybody knew me.  I opened my shop

 2     to everyone, regardless of whether the person was a Croat, a Serb, or a

 3     Muslim.  I respected every person.  I loaned money to many.  I had

 4     dealings with many people.  People respected me.  Many people were

 5     telling me, Ljubo, let's leave.  And I had a truck available where I

 6     could have loaded some of my belongings and left, and I had money too.

 7     But I didn't leave.  I was born a Dalmatian.  I was born in Split; I have

 8     a flat there.  And there I was a fool in Vukovar.  So when I got to

 9     Velepromet, what did I find there?  Sheer misery.  They were people who

10     were wretches.

11        Q.   Thank you, sir.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, no further questions.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

14             Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pribudic, can you hear me?

18        A.   I can.

19        Q.   My name is Christopher Gosnell, and I represent Mr. Hadzic in

20     these proceedings.  I'll be asking you a few questions.  If any of my

21     questions appear to you unclear, please let me know and I'll do my best

22     to assist you.  Do you understand?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I'd like to start with something that you just said a few minutes

25     ago when you were asked the following question by the Prosecutor,

Page 8932

 1     Mr. Stringer.  And the question was:

 2             "Now, you told us earlier that you didn't -- you did not know

 3     Mr. Hadzic from before, so how did you know that this was him?"

 4             And then your answer was:

 5             "It was the four of the men who mentioned him, one of them was

 6     called Savic.  And then there was this young lad as well, and the man

 7     carrying a Kalashnikov, as well as a person who used to be in the hangar.

 8     He was the one charged with the paperwork, with the dossier.  He

 9     addressed him as Goran.  And judging by his looks and his conduct, I

10     concluded that it was him.  But I didn't have an opportunity to see him

11     before."

12             Do you remember giving that answer, Mr. Pribudic?

13        A.   Yes, I said something along those lines.

14        Q.   So it's correct that you had not seen Mr. Hadzic before this

15     occasion.

16        A.   I said at the very beginning that I had seen him on the bridge,

17     the Vuka bridge --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.  It was

19     unclear.

20             MR. GOSNELL:

21        Q.   Sir, could you please repeat that answer?

22        A.   I was on the Vuka bridge and Hadzic passed by, and I asked, Who

23     is he?  And they said, It's Hadzic.  He's the warehouse keeper at

24     Pacetin.

25        Q.   And when was that?

Page 8933

 1        A.   I had no dealings with him.  I worked -- I had some work on the

 2     Vuka bridge.  It was -- it was in the 1970s.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:

 5        Q.   Could you please repeat, Mr. Pribudic, when you believe you saw

 6     him on the Vuka bridge.

 7        A.   He was walking there.  I didn't pay attention who he is -- who he

 8     was walking with.  And he didn't accost me either.  He just walked past.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Pribudic, I know that it may be difficult with the

10     videolink, hearing or understanding my questions, but I didn't ask you

11     what he was doing or who he was with, or whether he spoke to you.  My

12     only question is:  When did you see him on the Vuka bridge?

13        A.   When?  Well, I don't remember the time.  It was a man who didn't

14     mean anything to me at the time.  How should I remember?  Anybody could

15     have -- he could have been anybody.  I didn't expect him, to remember,

16     oh, now he arrived.

17        Q.   Well, we had a translation come through of your answer that said

18     it was in the 1970s.  Was the occasion that you saw Mr. Hadzic on the

19     Vuka bridge several or many years before 1991?

20        A.   How am I to know?  I don't remember.

21        Q.   Well, think back and try.  Can you --

22        A.   I wasn't waiting for Hadzic, you know.

23        Q.   I understand that, Mr. Witness.  But think back, as best you can

24     and --

25        A.   It was before the war.

Page 8934

 1        Q.   Was it years before the war?  Weeks?  Months?  A decade?

 2        A.   Maybe two or three years before the war.

 3        Q.   And was that the one and only occasion that you say you saw

 4     Mr. Hadzic before the war?

 5        A.   That was the only occasion.  I wouldn't even know if that

 6     colleague hadn't told me, That's Hadzic.  I didn't care.

 7        Q.   And the man who came into the room to interrogate you at

 8     Sremska Mitrovica who you now testify was Goran Hadzic, would it be

 9     correct to say that you relied exclusively on what you were told or what

10     was said by the other people in the room, and by that I mean that they

11     referred to Goran Hadzic by name?

12        A.   I wasn't so attentive.  He was beating me, slapping me every now

13     and then, and I didn't ask, Who is the one slapping me?  When I came to

14     the room upstairs, then the hygiene inspector was -- he died recently at

15     Kastela.  I can't remember his name now.  He was taken out immediately

16     after me, and he said, Ljubo, that is Hadzic.  And -- oh, now I remember

17     his name, Emil Cakalic.  But he didn't beat me, just interrogated me.

18        Q.   Well let me ask you this:  If you can recall, when the man whom

19     you later came to understand from Emil Cakalic was Goran Hadzic, when

20     that man first entered the room where you were interrogated, did you

21     recognise him as the man who had been identified to you on the Vuka

22     bridge as Mr. Hadzic?  Or not.

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I recognised his head, his hair, beard.

24        Q.   And that was on the basis and the strength of that one sighting

25     on the Vuka bridge possibly years before.

Page 8935

 1        A.   I may have seen him a couple of times more, but I wasn't paying

 2     attention.  I didn't look at everyone intently.

 3        Q.   Okay.  So now it's not true, it's not correct, then, what you

 4     said at line -- at page 19, when you testified to this Court when you

 5     said:

 6             "I didn't have an opportunity to see him before."

 7             As it turns out, you did, according to your testimony now, you

 8     did see him before; is that right?

 9        A.   I wasn't paying attention, what I know, who I see.  When you're

10     not paying attention, you don't really know.  You see dozens of people

11     every day, but ... so what?

12        Q.   When you returned from the interrogation room, you've testified

13     that you spoke to Emil Cakalic?

14             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry Mr. Gosnell.  There -- the -- there was a

15     question that you asked.  It's at line 3 and following on page 25.  Could

16     you attempt to put that question to the witness again?  The -- the

17     question was:  The man who came into the room to interrogate you at

18     Sremska Mitrovica which, et cetera, would it be correct to say that you

19     relied exclusively on what you were told or what was said by other people

20     in that room?

21             Could you attempt to put that question, that precise question

22     again to the witness, please.  Thanks.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Pribudic, I'll try to put this question slightly

25     differently and hopefully it will be a bit easier to understand.  At the

Page 8936

 1     moment when you were in the interrogation room, were you able to

 2     recognise him, the man who you say slapped you, on the basis of visually

 3     recognising him, or, rather, was it based on his name being mentioned by

 4     others in the room?

 5        A.   I recognised him because I had seen him.  Those people weren't

 6     saying anything.  The one who called him by name, Goran.  I recognised

 7     him by sight, by his appearance.  And then Cakalic also said, Yes, Ljubo,

 8     it's Goran Hadzic.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

10             MR. GOSNELL:

11        Q.   And how did Mr. Cakalic know that you were talking about the same

12     person?

13        A.   I went upstairs and told him.  And when he returned, he said, No,

14     he didn't beat me.  It is Hadzic, but he didn't beat me or anything.  But

15     I had been beaten before him.

16        Q.   And how was it that Mr. Cakalic had seen Mr. Hadzic on this

17     occasion, in order to be able to tell you, Yes, that's Mr. Hadzic?

18        A.   But they took him out of that room downstairs where I was, and

19     then he saw him.  And when he returned, he told me.

20        Q.   So are you saying that Mr. Cakalic also went and had an

21     interrogation with Mr. Hadzic on this same day that you did?

22        A.   Yes, on the same day.  The same day.

23        Q.   And what did he tell you about that interrogation that he

24     underwent?

25        A.   Nothing.  I didn't ask him, nor did he volunteer any information.

Page 8937

 1     He only confirmed to me that it was -- it had been Hadzic there.  But

 2     without my asking.

 3        Q.   Now, at the time of this interrogation, were you in what you have

 4     described earlier as the big room that you were detained in?  Is that

 5     where you were detained at that point in time?

 6        A.   All the rooms were big.  Where I was, that was room 1.  And then

 7     later I was in room 2, and later on, in room 4.  I don't know.

 8        Q.   Can you remember which room were staying in at the time of this

 9     interrogation?

10        A.   I can't tell you exactly.  I don't remember.

11        Q.   Was Dragutin Berghofer with you?

12        A.   Director Ivanisevic was there in the same room,

13     Zvonko Ivanisevic.  Then in that room there was - what's his name? -

14     Danijel Rehak.  But in a room where you go through such an ordeal, you

15     can't remember everything.

16        Q.   Was Dragutin Berghofer detained with you at Srebrenica while you

17     were there?

18             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry, you might want to correct that.  I believe

19     you said Srebrenica.  At least that's what I heard.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Apologies.

21        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Pribudic, my question was whether or not

22     Dragutin Berghofer was detained with you at Sremska Mitrovica.

23        A.   Detained at Sremska Mitrovica, yes, that's what he was.

24        Q.   In fact, you were taken --

25        A.   He stayed when I had already gone.

Page 8938

 1        Q.   In fact, you and he travelled on the same bus from the JNA

 2     barracks on the 22nd of November to Sremska Mitrovica; isn't that right?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  It is.

 4        Q.   And you had lived in Vukovar how many years before 1991?

 5        A.   From 1963.

 6        Q.   And you lived near Dragutin Berghofer; correct?  He was actually

 7     a neighbour of yours.

 8        A.   Yes, he was four or five houses away from me.  He had a work-shop

 9     for upholstery.

10        Q.   And can you recall whether he was in any of the same rooms as you

11     were staying in at Sremska Mitrovica?

12        A.   Where he was?  He was in the last room with me.  He was with me

13     as soon as we arrived, and then we went up to room 1 on the fourth floor.

14     He was there too.  And we were being beaten, and then he -- he freaked

15     out, something clicked in his head from the beating.  Yes, he was there.

16        Q.   So you say he was with you "as soon as we arrived, and then we

17     went up to room 1 on the fourth floor."  So am correct in understanding

18     that you were transferred together from one room to the next?

19        A.   No, no.  First, when we arrived, we went upstairs.  And for a

20     while, we were together.  On that night when those guys from Stajicevo

21     came.

22        Q.   Well, were you in the same room as Mr. Berghofer at any time

23     following this interrogation that you've described to us today?

24        A.   Yes, we were together in the meantime.  But I don't remember that

25     he was in the room when I went outside, when I went out.  But before

Page 8939

 1     that, he was.  We were in the same room, where we could see each other.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You say "we were together in the meantime."  And then you

 3     say, "But before that, he was."  I find that answer a bit ambiguous.

 4             My question is, and let me broaden it slightly, did you see or

 5     speak with Mr. Berghofer after this interrogation?

 6        A.   After Hadzic's interrogation, no.

 7        Q.   Well, not immediately after.  But any time between 1991, when you

 8     say this interrogation occurred, and the time that you were released,

 9     which you now say is April 1992, did you speak to Mr. Berghofer?

10        A.   Before the war.  Yes, we said good morning to each other, and we

11     were on greeting terms because we lived only a couple of houses apart.

12     Once he asked me for money, but I wouldn't lend him any.  So he was a bit

13     sore at me.  But before the war, we were in that Hungarian school

14     together.  He was a warehouse keeper.  It was before the war.  And we

15     arrived at Mitrovica together later on ...

16        Q.   My question did not concern before the war, Mr. Pribudic.  My

17     question concerned the period after your interrogation and before you

18     were released from Sremska Mitrovica.  Did you have occasion to speak

19     with Mr. Berghofer?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21        Q.   And did you tell him about this --

22        A.   Only I don't know in which room that was.

23        Q.   And did you tell him about --

24        A.   No, we didn't.

25        Q.   Well, sorry, Mr. Pribudic.  I hear -- I heard two different


Page 8940

 1     answers and this could be perhaps a problem with the audio or

 2     translation.  But did you or did you not speak with Mr. Berghofer

 3     after -- any time after this interrogation before your release from

 4     Sremska Mitrovica?  Weeks later?  At any time?

 5        A.   We were not together, and we didn't speak.

 6        Q.   So your testimony is that you never spoke to Dragutin Berghofer

 7     between the time of this interrogation and the time of your release, in

 8     April 1992?

 9        A.   He was not in my room.  He was not with me and, therefore, we

10     didn't speak.  He was not in room 4.

11             MR. GOSNELL:  I think I will have to take this up after the

12     break, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Pribudic, we take the first break for

14     30 minutes and come back at 11.00.

15             Court adjourned.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before --

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  While attempts are made to reconnect the

21     videolink, I have a very short oral ruling.

22             On 19 October, the Defence requested a seven-day extension of the

23     deadline for it to respond to the Prosecution's bar table motion.  On the

24     same day, the Prosecution indicated that it did not oppose the request.

25             The Trial Chamber hereby grants the request and orders that the


Page 8941

 1     Defence response to the Prosecution's bar table motion shall be filed by

 2     no later than Thursday, 31st of October.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Correction for the transcript, the oral ruling.

 5     The -- it -- sorry.  In the transcript, it is said 19 October, the

 6     Defence request, but it should be 16 October.  Thank you.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, while we have this technical pause,

 8     I have a technical matter that I can perhaps take up, use this time with.

 9     There was a -- an official final translation of one of the witness's

10     prior statements which came through recently, and we requested the

11     Prosecution this morning to upload the final revised translation.  At

12     least my understanding is that that was the request, but I'm not sure yet

13     if it has gone through.

14             Now if I can just say in advance, I have hard copies of the final

15     translation, just in case there is any problem at all with the version in

16     e-court.  And the 65 ter number of that is 06487.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Are we ready to proceed, Madam Registrar, in Osijek?

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour.  We reconnected

20     again and it should be fine now.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Gosnell, please proceed.

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Maybe I could just ask before we start, so there

24     isn't an interruption as we're going through, as to whether the final

25     version is uploaded and released?  If not, it's not a problem.  We can

Page 8942

 1     just use the hard copy, but ...

 2             MR. STRINGER:  I just became aware of its existence this morning,

 3     Mr. President.  I believe it's come from CLSS.  There's probably no

 4     problem, but we would like a chance to examine it.

 5             Could I suggest that -- I believe it's been uploaded.  Perhaps we

 6     could just give it a point, a decimal so that it is distinguished, rather

 7     than replacing the existing translation that we've been working off of up

 8     until this point.  I don't know whether counsel intends to offer it at

 9     some point, but I suppose we'll wait until we get there.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  I would have no objection to a decimal point to

11     distinguish it from the unrevised version.  I also only became aware of

12     the finalised version extremely recently before this morning.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can that be done, Madam Registrar?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, as long as the uploaded

15     numbers from e-court are communicated to me.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do we have the uploaded number?

17             MR. GOSNELL:  We don't have a Defence -- separate Defence upload

18     number because it was -- my understanding from my side was that it had to

19     be released by the Prosecution.  Since it's -- all it is is a -- it's a

20     translation revision of their document.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, do you have the 65 ter number in

22     e-court?

23             MR. STRINGER:  Can the -- can it just be given a Defence 65 ter

24     number?  Would that be easier?

25             MR. GOSNELL:  We have no problem with that.  But it will be a bit


Page 8943

 1     strange, won't it?

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MR. STRINGER:  I'm informed that once it's re-uploaded it will be

 4     as 65 ter 6457 -- excuse me, 87.  Let me just ... 6487.2.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Will that do, Mr. Gosnell?

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Certainly.  Thank you.  I thank my friends.  And

 7     thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:

10        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, when you saw Mr. Hadzic on the Vuka bridge two to

11     three years before the war, did he have a beard or was he clean-shaven?

12        A.   I think he had a beard.  Yes, I think so.

13        Q.   Now you testified that the individuals in the -- in the room

14     referred to him as Goran.  Did they use his last name at any time?

15        A.   No, they didn't.  No.

16        Q.   Now, sir, before I ask you some more questions about this

17     incident, I want to try to pin down the date of your release from

18     Sremska Mitrovica, and at page 21, line 2, you testified it was from the

19     7th of April.  So from the 20th or 21st up until the 7th of April.  And

20     that was your testimony about the period of detention at

21     Sremska Mitrovica.

22             So is that a correct reflection of your memory as to when you

23     were released, the 7th of April, 1992?

24        A.   Yes, correct.  The 7th of April, 1992, that's when I was

25     released.  I think it was past noon.  Two buses took us.

Page 8944

 1        Q.   How are you able, after all these years, to remember such a

 2     specific date?  Is there something that allows you to situate the date of

 3     your release so specifically?

 4        A.   Well, in all the documents that I have at home, all these papers

 5     state that date.  Detained at Sremska Mitrovica from/to.  That's what the

 6     documents state.  I cannot forget that.

 7        Q.   And yet, at page 16, line 19, you say, in answer to a question of

 8     the Prosecutor:

 9             "I was released on the 2nd of July."

10             Were you referring to something else when you said that, or were

11     you confused, or is the transcript incorrect, or is there an

12     inconsistency?

13             MR. STRINGER:  Objection.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that.

15             MR. STRINGER:  I object to the compound question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that.

17             MR. STRINGER:  It's compound in the extreme.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, we have the witness's answer.  I think he

20     said he didn't say that, and that's the answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Could we have 06487, please.  And I would like for

23     the English to be point 2.

24        Q.   Sir, do you remember, on the 5th of August of this year, you met

25     with the -- some representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, and you

Page 8945

 1     were shown a statement from -- that you had given earlier to some

 2     Croatian officials.  And you gave that earlier statement in April 2010 --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- and you reviewed that statement with them.  And then you --

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   -- and then you signed a certification of that statement, in

 7     which you said that you recognised the record of interview, even though

 8     you had not previously seen it, and you say:

 9             "I confirm the accuracy" -- and this is on page 2 of the cover

10     page of the certification.  You say:

11             "I confirm the accuracy of this statement.  I have been asked

12     whether there are any errors in this statement that need to be corrected

13     or clarified.  I have not found any errors, although I do believe that

14     the statement is somewhat abbreviated, may not contain all of the details

15     that I provided to the investigative judge."

16             Now is that right that you signed that certification when you met

17     with the Prosecutor on the 5th of August, 2013?

18        A.   No, no.  No.  No.  When it was done, it was thrown onto the desk

19     in front of me, that statement.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Perhaps we can turn to page 2 of the B/C/S document

21     on the page in front of us.  And hopefully the Registrar in Osijek can

22     locate that.  And if we can just turn the page over to the next page in

23     English.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Pribudic, can you see your signature there?

25        A.   That's a statement that I gave.

Page 8946

 1        Q.   And am I right that you meant to say that there were -- that you

 2     had reviewed your previous statement as was provided to you on that date,

 3     and that you found that there were no errors in it, and that it was

 4     accurate, subject to saying that it wasn't -- it was somewhat

 5     abbreviated.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   That's all right.

 7        Q.   Now, if I could ask you to turn over to the -- to the statement

 8     itself that you gave in 2010.  And please look at the very, very last

 9     line there.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  And in English -- the English translation is

11     06487.2 and it's at page 4.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not in 1990.

13             MR. GOSNELL:

14        Q.   Now what it says there in your statement, which you say is

15     accurate, or which you said was accurate in August 2013, you say:

16             "Finally, I can say that I was exchanged on 27 February 1992."

17             Now, that's different from what you told us, and I understand

18     that.  But my question is this:  Why, in your previous statement, or how,

19     were you able to be so specific that you thought the date of your

20     exchange was the 27th of February, 1992; whereas today you've told us -

21     again specifically - that's in April 1992, April 7th?

22        A.   The month of April, yes.  It's not correct that I said this, what

23     you just stated.  All my documents state the 7th of April.

24        Q.   And between the time of your interrogation with Mr. Hadzic and

25     your release, it's at least three months, if not a little longer; is that

Page 8947

 1     right?

 2             Sorry, Mr. Pribudic, you don't need to look at your statement for

 3     this.  And perhaps I don't need to even ask a question.  I can just put

 4     it to you.  According to your testimony now, it was more than three

 5     months between the time of your interrogation and your release.

 6             So my question is this:  You've told us that you discussed your

 7     interrogation with Mr. Cakalic.  Did you discuss the interrogation by

 8     Mr. Hadzic with any of your other fellow inmates?

 9        A.   I didn't talk to anyone.  I didn't talk to anyone.

10        Q.   Well, why wouldn't you mention this event to your fellow inmates?

11     I mean, surely this was, for you, a significant and traumatic experience.

12     Well, first of all, is that correct?  Do you view this as a traumatic

13     experience?

14        A.   I was hospitalised twice in Vinkovci in the meantime, and

15     whomever I met of my friends, I told them that I was going to be

16     interviewed by the ICTY investigators.  But I didn't speak to anybody

17     about details or anything else.

18             I told them that it was three or four days previously, and then I

19     met people at my gate and I would tell them that they had called me to

20     come and testify, and they all encouraged me.  They said, Ljubo, you

21     should go ahead and do it.  But I didn't talk to them about any details.

22        Q.   While you were detained at Sremska Mitrovica did you know and did

23     you speak with someone named Vilim Karlovic?  That name again,

24     Vilim Karlovic.

25        A.   I don't understand the question.

Page 8948

 1        Q.   While you were detained at Sremska Mitrovica prison, did you have

 2     the acquaintance of anyone there named Vilim Karlovic?  Vilim Karlovic.

 3        A.   Come again?

 4        Q.   While --

 5        A.   What was the name again?

 6        Q.   Vilim Karlovic.

 7        A.   Vilim Karlovic.  Yes, I knew him at Mitrovica.  Yes.  Yes, he was

 8     by me for a while, and then he went to stay by Dragan.  He was the room

 9     leader.  I had seen him at the Vukovar front a year before that.

10        Q.   When you say he was by you for a while, do I understand you to

11     say that he was near you in one of the rooms in which you were detained?

12     In terms of where he was sleeping.

13        A.   Yes.  He was in the same room as I was, and we shared food.  I

14     think that he stayed behind when I left, when I was singled out and left

15     on the 7th.

16        Q.   And did you describe to him or recount to him in any way having

17     been interrogated by the man whom you think was Goran Hadzic?

18        A.   I -- I didn't talk to him.  I saw him once at a petrol station,

19     and we exchanged greetings, and that was all.  And my son asked me, Dad,

20     who was that?  And I said it was a man who was imprisoned together with

21     me.  And that was all.

22        Q.   Did you know Dragutin Guzovski while you were detained at Sremska

23     Mitrovica, and was he a fellow inmate there?  And let me repeat that

24     name, Dragutin Guzovski, G-u-z-o-v-s-k-i.

25        A.   I'm not hearing this.  The headphones are not working.

Page 8949

 1        Q.   Let me try again.  I'm asking you whether you were acquainted at

 2     Sremska Mitrovica with anyone named Dragutin Guzovski, G-u-z-o-v-s-k-i

 3     and if the answer is --

 4        A.   Dragutin Guzovski, I know him very well.  We are very good

 5     friends.  But I didn't see him at Mitrovica.

 6        Q.   Did you at any time subsequent to your release from

 7     Sremska Mitrovica tell Mr. Guzovski about your interrogation by the man

 8     whom you think was Goran Hadzic?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   Same question in respect of someone named Zdravko Komsic,

11     K-o-m-c-i -- s-i-c.  Did you have his acquaintance at Sremska Mitrovica

12     and --

13        A.   I know him well, as well.  He lives close to my house.  But we

14     never discussed this.  I was -- I wanted to get in touch with him just

15     now to tell him that I was about to leave for The Hague, but he wasn't

16     there.

17        Q.   Well, other than Mr. Cakalic, then, can you tell us whether you

18     mentioned this interrogation with the man you believed to be Mr. Hadzic

19     to anyone at all who was a fellow inmate in the months following this

20     event?

21        A.   I discussed this with Cakalic, and I did speak out loud.  I don't

22     know if anybody heard, I don't know, from among the people who were

23     around us.  I told this to Cakalic because he was right next to me.  And

24     that was just before I dropped to the ground.  I didn't speak to anyone

25     else about it.

Page 8950

 1        Q.   Now you testified -- or, well, perhaps I should ask you:  Is it

 2     right that this interrogation occurred in a basement room, according to

 3     you?

 4        A.   I don't understand.  What was it that happened in the basement?

 5        Q.   Was the interrogation that we're discussing today --

 6        A.   Hadzic's slapping?

 7        Q.   Yes, indeed.  Yes, indeed, Mr. Pribudic.  Where this slapping

 8     occurs, did that occur in a basement room?

 9        A.   Hadzic's abuse was in the basement, yes.  Now what you have been

10     asking me about had nothing to do with the basement.  Because I was taken

11     from the basement to the room where I was held.

12        Q.   And the man who was in that room with the Kalashnikov, was he one

13     of the regular guards at Sremska Mitrovica prison?  Did you recognise him

14     as such based on his attire or by recognising him facially?

15        A.   I had never seen the man.  Or perhaps I did see him before, but I

16     didn't know him.  He told me, Ljubo, wait until I have my way with you.

17     And I dropped to my knees.  And I thought, I'm done for.  But who he was,

18     I don't know.  He trained his Kalashnikov at me.

19        Q.   How long did the interrogation last from the time that you walked

20     in the door until the time that you walked out the door?

21        A.   I wasn't really keeping the time.  I wasn't paying attention to

22     that.  But not long.  Five or six of Hadzic's slaps, and five or six

23     questions.  It mustn't have lasted long.

24        Q.   Would you say it was more or less than five minutes?  Are you

25     able to give us any precision at all about that?

Page 8951

 1        A.   More than five minutes.  Five minutes is nothing.  He steps in,

 2     asks a question, slaps me, goes out into the next room.  My impression

 3     was that there was somebody in that room.  I heard some whispering there.

 4     Then he came back and then asked me, Does -- does Mrkic owe you money?

 5     And then goes out again.  Comes in again, asking me about my sons.

 6        Q.   And how many times, according to you, does Mr. Hadzic come in and

 7     out of the room?  On how many separate occasions does he enter the room?

 8        A.   Where did I put ...

 9        Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Pribudic --

10        A.   That's not it.  What's this?

11        Q.   I'm -- I'm not asking you to refer to any notes or document at

12     this stage.  I would -- I would ask you -- I would ask you -- I would ask

13     you, first of all --

14        A.   I don't need them.  I don't need them.

15        Q.   Sir, can I ask you what have you written on that piece of paper?

16        A.   This piece of paper?  These are the notes I made this morning.  I

17     wanted to write down the order in which Hadzic put his questions to me.

18     And then I came up to number three or four, and that's it.  Hadzic came

19     in.  He said, You're Pribudic.  You're Ljubo.  And then he went to the

20     other ones who told him that everything was fine.  Then the second

21     question was:  Does Mladen owe you money?  The third question was:  Where

22     is your membership card?  Who are you, where do you come from, where are

23     your sons and telling me how he was going to kill them.  Who told you to

24     stand up.  Because one of the four men there told me to stand up.  I

25     couldn't -- my legs couldn't hold me anymore.

Page 8952

 1             But that's what I have written down on this piece of paper.

 2        Q.   Sir, would you have any objection to handing over those notes to

 3     Madam Registrar so that we can keep them or take a copy of them and bring

 4     them back to The Hague?

 5        A.   Yes, all right.  Give it to him.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much for that.  Now, I'm not sure you answered my

 7     question and it may be a difficult question to answer, but I'll see if

 8     you are now able to answer it.  If you were to put a number on the number

 9     of times that Mr. Hadzic came in and out of the room, are you able to do

10     that?  Can you tell us how many times he did that?

11        A.   As far as I remember, well, it's been 20 years, he went in six

12     times.

13        Q.   By that, you mean he entered and left six times.  There were six

14     intervals of separate questions by him to you.

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And how many times --

17        A.   Let's say a minute each, that would make up six minutes.

18        Q.   And how many times, according to you, did Mr. Hadzic slap you?

19        A.   Do what?  I didn't understand.

20        Q.   How many times did he slap you?

21        A.   Every time he stepped into the room he slapped me.  Except for

22     the last time, when he said, Take him away.

23        Q.   Did he do anything more than slap you?  By that, I mean did he

24     commit any other violence towards you, other than slapping you?

25        A.   He spat at me.  He spat at me.  Spat.  Hit me with his hand and

Page 8953

 1     spat at me.  Punched me --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Swore my mother.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:

 5        Q.   Punched you with his hand?

 6        A.   Yes.  Struck me with his arm, and as he turned with the blow, he

 7     spat at me when I said that I was a Croat.

 8        Q.   Did he slap you with his open palm or did he slap you with the

 9     back of his hand?

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, the word was "punch."

11             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I think we're dealing with both, and I'll

12     come back to the -- the punch.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  When you asked about slapping, that's the

14     other -- the other times he -- the witness has said that he -- that

15     Hadzic slapped him.  Is that what you mean?

16             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm trying to ask generally, about the slaps in

17     general.  Because I believe the record is, according to him, that there

18     have been six -- or there were six.

19        Q.   So but -- but perhaps I could be clearer, Mr. Pribudic.  Of those

20     slaps that you say you received, were they with the palm of his hand,

21     were they with the back of his hand, or were they some combination?

22        A.   As he turned around, he hit me in the head with the palm of his

23     hand.  So I said he was slapping me, but he was striking me in the

24     process.  Now the first time he slapped me, he -- he then asked me, Which

25     side did I slap you before?  And then I showed him the cheek.  And then

Page 8954

 1     he slapped me on the other cheek, saying, Just to make sure I don't

 2     always slap you in the same spot.  So they were slaps.

 3        Q.   Did he ever hit you with a closed fist?

 4        A.   No.  No.

 5        Q.   And were these slaps all to the head or the face?

 6        A.   Cheek and head.  Yes, he would slap me on the forehead and the

 7     cheek.

 8        Q.   And aside from the slapping and the spitting, any other physical

 9     aggression towards you by Mr. Hadzic, the man who you say is Mr. Hadzic?

10        A.   Nothing.  Not a thing.

11        Q.   Let's, please, now have a look at your statement.  And I'll ask

12     you, please, to look at the second-last paragraph of your statement.

13             MR. GOSNELL:  In English it's on page -- sorry.  It might be the

14     third-last in B/C/S.  In English it starts at page 3.  Thank you very

15     much, Mr. Registrar.

16        Q.   Now, you describe in this paragraph coming into the room.  You

17     say and you describe, are describing the men in the room.  And you say:

18             "One had the last naming of Stankovic.  I think that he was a

19     judge.  One wore a black suit and he took my details.  One had a

20     Kalashnikov and he was leaning against the window.  And there was

21     Slobodan Savic."

22             Let me, first of all, stop there and ask you this:  Is it true

23     that there was -- that the man with the Kalashnikov was leaning against a

24     window?

25        A.   I don't know him.

Page 8955

 1        Q.   No -- that's not -- Mr. Pribudic, that is not my question.

 2        A.   Don't know that one.

 3        Q.   My question was:  Is it true that he was leaning against a

 4     window?

 5        A.   If he was leaning against the window.  Well, how should I know?

 6        Q.   The reason I --

 7        A.   I saw him standing by the window and holding a Kalashnikov in his

 8     hands.  But if he was leaning or not, how am I to know?

 9        Q.   And how big was this --

10        A.   I didn't have time to watch out for these things.

11        Q.   How big was this window?

12        A.   Well, how big the window was.  What do I know how big it was?

13        Q.   Well, you're in a basement.  And I'm curious to know what kind of

14     a window is in a basement room.

15        A.   It was a basement room.  How large may it have been?

16        Q.   Your statement continues:

17             "They first checked my details because they had my file in front

18     of them.  Then Goran Hadzic came into the room and said, And said to me,

19     there you are, scalesman, you mother fucker.  And then he slapped my face

20     once.  Then he did it again.  Then he slapped my face as he turned

21     around, and then he slapped me again and then he went out.  Before that,

22     he ordered me to squat down.  Then he came in again and asked me whether

23     Mladen Mrkic owed me something.  And then he kicked me in the stomach and

24     left the room.  Five minutes later, he came back with a new question and

25     he wanted to kick me between my legs, but I moved so he kicked me in the

Page 8956

 1     ribs.  In the meantime, Stankovic interrogated me about a person with the

 2     last name of Madjar, what I knew about him.  I remember that Goran Hadzic

 3     asked me where my sons were."

 4             And then you give a response.

 5             "And at that, Goran Hadzic spat in my face, went out and came

 6     back.  And the person armed with a Kalashnikov told me, Do you want me to

 7     beat the crap out of you?"

 8             Now, Mr. Pribudic, this account of the interrogation looks a bit

 9     different than what you have testified to today.  For one thing, it

10     appears from your statement - and you can tell me if my reading is

11     wrong - that Mr. Hadzic gives you four slaps in a row during his first

12     entry into the room.

13             When you read what you wrote there -- what you said was accurate

14     and correct in August 2013, would you agree with my interpretation of

15     what you did -- what you wrote down there?

16        A.   No, it's not true.  He didn't slap me four times then.  He

17     slapped me once, and then he asked, Which side did I slap you on?  And

18     then he slapped me on the other cheek.  And -- but it's -- it is not the

19     way you -- you said.  Then there was this guy holding the - what's it

20     called? - Kalashnikov or something.  I don't know.

21        Q.   Today you have specified that the only physical aggression by

22     Mr. Hadzic against you was slapping and spitting.  And here, in your

23     statement from just three months ago, you say that he kicked you.  That's

24     not right, is it?

25        A.   No, he didn't kick me in the stomach.  He wanted to kick me

Page 8957

 1     between my legs, but then I moved, and he hit my ribs.  So he didn't kick

 2     me in the belly.  And he said, Now you're -- you're not going out in the

 3     next five years.  And I replied, Well, it doesn't matter, as long as it's

 4     war, man.  The food is good.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, when I intervened about the

 6     slapping, the punching, just before that, the witness did speak about

 7     punching.  So when you put to him that today he only speaks about

 8     slapping, I think you're missing the punching that you said you would ask

 9     about.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, I did follow up with that, Mr. President,

11     because I asked whether he had ever been hit with a clenched fist.

12     Because I didn't know whether the interpretation of the word "punch" was

13     correct, so I followed up by asking whether he had been hit with a closed

14     fist.  And then when he said no, I understood that as a correction of his

15     previous testimony.  That was -- at least that was the purpose of the

16     question and that was my understanding of the answer.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. GOSNELL:

19        Q.   So now, Mr. Pribudic, you're -- you're correcting or adding to

20     your testimony and you're saying -- even though I asked you earlier

21     whether there was any physical aggression by Mr. Hadzic against you other

22     than being slapped and spat at, now you're telling us that he kicked you

23     as well.

24        A.   While he was turning around, he kicked me.  But punching and

25     slapping is not the same thing.  You punch with a clenched fist.

Page 8958

 1        Q.   Quite so.  And am I right that you earlier told us that

 2     Mr. Hadzic never struck you with a clenched fist?

 3        A.   Why he didn't punch me.  He slapped me.  But you should ask him

 4     why he didn't punch me.  When he was turning around, he slapped me on the

 5     head.

 6        Q.   And you said that he was asking you about Mrkic.  And you've

 7     testified that, in your words, Mrkic was Hadzic's director.  Isn't it

 8     correct that Vupik is an organisation of about 400 employees with offices

 9     spread out in Eastern Slavonia with the headquarters in Vukovar?  Is that

10     correct?

11        A.   It is correct.

12        Q.   And am I right that Vukic's office -- excuse me, that Mrkic's

13     office was in the Eltz castle in Vukovar?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And Mr. Hadzic was working in the Pacetin office of Vupik, which

16     was very small.  Five employees or less; correct?

17        A.   Correct.  I don't know if there were five exactly.

18        Q.   And Mr. Hadzic was not even --

19        A.   I don't know that.

20        Q.   Mr. Hadzic was not even the head of that small branch of Vupik,

21     was he?

22        A.   I don't know that.

23        Q.   So when you say that Mrkic was Hadzic's director, you don't mean

24     that he has any direct or ongoing supervision of Mr. Hadzic, based on

25     your knowledge?

Page 8959

 1        A.   Director.  Hadzic worked at Kooperacija, and it was an

 2     organisational unit of Vupik.  What exactly he did, I don't know, but

 3     that one was a director and he was a warehouse keeper or something.  But

 4     I don't know that.  That's their problem.

 5        Q.   What I'm suggesting to you is that Mr. Hadzic does not have,

 6     based on your information, and I put this to you as a matter of my

 7     information, he has no close relationship at all with Mrkic.  So do you

 8     have any indication as to why he's asking you questions about you -- or

 9     he owing money to you?  Do you have any explanation for that?

10        A.   Because Mrkic used to play poker with me, and he borrowed money

11     frequently.  How he knew about it, I don't know who told him.  Mrkic

12     borrowed money from me on a few occasions.

13        Q.   Any indication as to why Mr. Hadzic is preoccupied with that

14     issue with you?

15        A.   How should I know why he was preoccupied with that.  He asked me

16     about that at Mitrovica.  Never before.

17        Q.   I'd like to turn to a new subject --

18        A.   He may have heard from ...

19        Q.   Yes.  Please proceed, Mr. Pribudic.  Sorry, Mr. Pribudic, I

20     didn't mean to interrupt.  Did you want to add something?

21        A.   I don't know why he asked me whether that one owed me money.  I

22     don't know how he found out about his borrowings from me.  We were good

23     pals and we played cards together and that -- all that.

24        Q.   I'd like to move to -- to back up and talk about your arrest

25     before you went to Velepromet on the 18th of November.

Page 8960

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell, would that be your last topic?

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, it is the last topic, but what I

 3     would request, if possible, is an opportunity to consult with client

 4     before concluding my cross.  If that means breaking early, I'm more than

 5     happy to do that.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, who put you under arrest and took you to Velepromet

 9     on the 18th of November?  Could you identify the people who did that,

10     either based on uniforms or recognising them --

11        A.   The JNA, the army.

12        Q.   And did they walk you over to Velepromet in a group?

13        A.   The army was dressed in olive-drab military uniforms.  My wife

14     and I walked up to the park, and then they put us on a truck that took us

15     to the Velepromet yard.  Those were -- those people were unknown to me.

16        Q.   Was that a civilian or a military truck, from what you could see

17     of it?

18        A.   It was a civilian truck, the one that took me there.

19        Q.   And was that civilian truck escorted by any JNA vehicles to

20     Velepromet?

21        A.   It was on the road, but if it was escorted or not, I don't know.

22     They probably used it for transporting those that were older and weaker.

23     I don't know.

24        Q.   And did you continue to -- or did you observe JNA soldiers

25     bringing more prisoners to Velepromet while you were there, or did you

Page 8961

 1     hear that that was going on?

 2        A.   No, I never heard anything and didn't observe.  I had no time to

 3     watch out for people coming or going.  I was preoccupied with my own

 4     ordeal.

 5        Q.   And you say that you were taken in a bus from Velepromet to the

 6     JNA barracks late on the evening of the 21st of November.

 7             Can you describe that scene as to how you came to leave the

 8     barracks and enter the bus?

 9        A.   We were waiting in the morning, and then they opened the gates

10     and told us, Come on, get on the buses.  And we went toward the buses,

11     but we didn't know what would happen.  And then the bus started moving

12     towards Negoslavci and continued to Mitrovica.

13        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Pribudic, I'm not talking now about the bus between

14     Vukovar barracks and Sremska Mitrovica.  I'm asking you about boarding

15     the bus at Velepromet that took you to the JNA barracks.  Can you

16     describe that scene and, in particular, did you see any JNA soldiers or

17     officers present on that occasion?

18        A.   That's something else.  That was not your question.  You're

19     asking that only now.

20             There was a -- an officer with a high rank, and he said, Come on,

21     get out and get on the buses.  Chetniks will come and slaughter you all.

22     And we boarded the buses, which took us to the barracks.

23        Q.   Did you observe any contention or disagreement between the

24     soldiers who were -- or the people who were guarding you at Velepromet

25     and the JNA officer?

Page 8962

 1        A.   No, I didn't notice anything.  But I wasn't paying attention

 2     either.  I was only looking down.

 3        Q.   And other than this JNA officer with a high rank, did you see

 4     other JNA soldiers, including JNA military police?

 5        A.   No, I didn't.  He was just standing there and yelling, Come on,

 6     come on, move.  And -- that officer I mean.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I -- I would conclude my

 8     cross-examination subject to an opportunity to consult with my client.

 9             If -- if perhaps it wouldn't be too much trouble to perhaps take

10     the break --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Take the break now?  Okay.

12             We'll take the break.  We'll take the break and let's come back

13     at -- well, let's come back at 12.45 as -- as usual.

14             Court adjourned.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  Just a few very brief questions, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, were you sitting in a chair throughout your

20     interview or throughout this interrogation that we've been discussing?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And when you --

23             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Are we -- are we sure that we're talking about

25     the same thing here?  Because I was a little bit confused.

Page 8963

 1             MR. GOSNELL:

 2        Q.   Mr. Pribudic, maybe I should make my question absolutely clear to

 3     you.  I'm asking you whether, during the interrogation, in which

 4     Mr. Hadzic enters the room several times, were you seated throughout that

 5     interview or interrogation?

 6        A.   I wasn't seated at all.  I was either standing or squatting.

 7     Actually, I was squatting, almost the whole time.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  With -- with respect, it seemed to me that the

10     question as rephrased was a bit ambiguous because one could be seated

11     without sitting in a chair, which was the -- I mean, one could be seated

12     on the floor, in theory.  So it seemed there was a bit of a shift that

13     could have been ambiguous for the witness.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, at least one ambiguity has been clarified.

15     And let's see what the exact answer was.  I think the answer is clear

16     enough, Mr. Stringer.  You agree?

17             Please proceed, Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:

19        Q.   And when you spoke to Mr. Cakalic and he told you that he had

20     been interrogated by Mr. Hadzic, did he tell you, at that time, whether

21     Mr. Hadzic held any position?

22        A.   No, he didn't tell me anything.

23        Q.   Did you learn what -- Mr. Hadzic's position sometime soon after

24     your release from Sremska Mitrovica prison?

25        A.   I learned that he was the president of the SAO Krajina.  So I was

Page 8964

 1     in the habit of saying that I had had the honour of being slapped by the

 2     president of Krajina.

 3        Q.   And you were in the habit of saying that to whom?

 4        A.   To my family members, at home.  Nothing official.

 5        Q.   And you didn't bring this experience of yours to the attention of

 6     any authorities in Croatia for 18 years; is that right?

 7        A.   No, I didn't.  That's right.

 8        Q.   And did you --

 9        A.   I thought that -- let bygones be bygones.

10        Q.   Did you ever hear from the media or from your friends that there

11     were, in fact, criminal proceedings against Mr. Hadzic ongoing as early

12     as 1992 in Croatia?

13        A.   I wasn't following that.  I heard on TV and read in newspapers

14     that there was a proceeding going on, but I didn't think that I should

15     get involved in that.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Pribudic.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, that concludes my cross-examination.

18     Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Stringer, anything in re-direct?

21             MR. STRINGER:  No -- No, Your Honour.  No re-direct.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Pribudic, this is the end of your testimony

25     for the Tribunal.  Thank you very much for assisting us.  You are now


Page 8965

 1     released as a witness --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I wish you a safe journey home.

 4             Thank you very much.

 5                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

 6             Mr. Gosnell.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, Mr. President there is one more thing I

10     should have done, and I don't believe it involves the witness.  But we

11     would request to tender 06487, being the witness's prior statement from

12     the 5th of August, 2013.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The purpose being, Mr. Gosnell?

14             MR. GOSNELL:  In this particular case, we would ask that you

15     admit this particular statement because there are sequences of events

16     that are described, and we say that the sequence is not in line with the

17     sequence that was described by the witness.  I did put the passages, and

18     yet there's really no way to fully assess the significance of the

19     sequence without the full context.  And I would also suggest that even if

20     I did read in everything that was relevant, there's actually no concrete

21     evidence as to what the witness said or the nature of his affirmation

22     unless you admit the statement.

23             So, on those grounds, I would --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Resolve inconsistency.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Precisely.  Yes -- oh, certainly the purpose of

Page 8966

 1     admission is purely to -- for credibility.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Stringer.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  We object to it, Mr. President.  The position is

 5     that counsel has had ample time to explore any inconsistencies with the

 6     witness, and it is not only inconsistency but there is consistency as

 7     well.  And if it is going to be admitted, then let's admit it for all

 8     purposes in this unique situation.  But it seems only half of it -- to

 9     tender a statement only for the limited purpose here, when counsel's had

10     full opportunity on cross to bring out inconsistencies, it's certainly

11     not in line with what's largely been the practice in this case, not admit

12     statements when there has been full cross-examination.

13             If the Chamber is minded to admit it, however, the Prosecution

14     submits it should be admitted for all purposes.

15             Having said that, of course, the witness hasn't really adopted it

16     in a way that a witness would be adopting a 92 ter statement.  He's said

17     that there are things in there such as the date of his release which are

18     incorrect.  And so again it's -- the value of it, outside of the

19     cross-examination that the Chamber already has, I think is limited.  But,

20     in any event, it is unfair to admit it only for impeachment and we

21     therefore object.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I promise I won't repeat any of my

23     submissions, but just on the issue of the purpose of admission, the

24     practice of the Tribunal is clear that prior inconsistent statements can

25     be admitted for the limited purpose of impeachment.  And 92 ter is the

Page 8967

 1     manner by which prior statements are admitted for the substance of the

 2     content.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Stringer, the fault may be entirely mine that

 4     I'm confused, but when you say that if it is admitted -- it should be

 5     admitted for all purposes but then you go on to say that he hasn't

 6     adopted it in the way that a witness adopts a 92 ter statement, aren't

 7     you walking in opposite directions on the point?

 8             MR. STRINGER:  I think in the end what would happen is the

 9     parties, both of them, would in equality be free to point out

10     inconsistencies as well as consistencies; that is, things contained in

11     the statement which the witness has affirmed today in his viva voce

12     evidence.  And so that's the point I was attempting to make.

13             In terms of practice, my reference was not so much to Tribunal

14     practice but the practice that's been utilised -- I believe I'm correct

15     in this, the Chamber has tended not admit statements for impeachment

16     purposes when there's been full opportunity to cross-examination.  I

17     believe a proposed interlocutory appeal was even denied on that issue.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The document is admitted and marked for the

20     purpose mentioned by the Defence.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 6487 receives number

22     Exhibit D105.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This -- this document, this is the document with

25     the revised translation under 6487.2; right?

Page 8968

 1             MR. STRINGER:  That's my understanding, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So --

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Although --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- then OTP will replace the previous translation

 5     by the current one?

 6             MR. STRINGER:  If possible, Your Honour, because this was just

 7     made available to us this morning in the courtroom, we would like to have

 8     an opportunity to review it before we take a position on substituting it.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's -- would it be okay if we say that you take

10     a position by, let's say, Wednesday, end of -- close of business?

11     Would --

12             MR. STRINGER:  Absolutely, Mr. President.  Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

14             If there's nothing else, court adjourned.

15                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.03 p.m.,

16                           sine die.