Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9199

 1                           Wednesday, 9 April 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

10     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             May we have the appearances, starting with the Prosecution,

13     please.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15     For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Lisa Biersay, Case Manager

16     Thomas Laugel, and legal interns Marija Knezevic and Marija Erceg.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, with legal intern

21     Paul Stokes.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             And for Mr. Bogunovic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Mr. Bogunovic,

25     Branko Lukic.


Page 9200

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, good morning to you.  May I remind

 2     you that you are still on your oath.

 3             Mr. Zivanovic, please continue.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           WITNESS:  BORISLAV BOGUNOVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bogunovic.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   I wanted to ask you something about what you said in your

11     statement, a meeting in Velepromet in November 1991.  I have information

12     from a large number of participants in this meeting that it was chaired

13     by a lieutenant-colonel of the JNA who introduced himself as the

14     commander of the city of Vukovar.  Can you confirm that, since you

15     attended the meeting?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And I was also informed that at that meeting where the Croatian

18     prisoners who had surrendered were mentioned, it was not mentioned where

19     they were from at all, whether they were at the hospital or the barracks,

20     wherever.  Do you remember any of that?  Can you confirm this?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In your statement you said, among other things, that there were

23     meetings that Goran Hadzic had with the then president of Serbia,

24     Slobodan Milosevic.  According to the information that I have, he had his

25     first meeting with him when the Vance Plan was signed.  Do you know that?

Page 9201

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   It seems to me that you took part in one of these meetings that

 3     were held, I think, in the presidency of the then SFRY where there was

 4     this discussion on the signing of this plan, where there were several

 5     participants in this discussion.  Do you remember that?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   On the basis of what I know and on the basis of the information I

 8     have, before that - that is to say, before this Vance Plan became a

 9     topical thing - Goran Hadzic had not had any contact with

10     President Milosevic?

11        A.   I cannot say for sure.  I don't think he had any, but I cannot

12     say whether there weren't any meetings at all.  Perhaps there was no need

13     to have any meetings, and I believe that there weren't any meetings and

14     that that happened only when all of us went together to attend that

15     meeting.

16        Q.   You mean the meetings concerning the Vance Plan?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I also have information that he had a telephone conversation with

19     President Milosevic when the cease-fire agreement was supposed to be

20     signed.  I think it was the 7th of September, 1991.  And then he refused

21     to sign that document because his office, his position was not referred

22     to in that document.  And then President Milosevic suggested to him that

23     he sign it nevertheless.  Do you perhaps know about that?

24        A.   Well, yes.  It wasn't that Goran decided this totally on his own.

25     He consulted his colleagues, his assistants, wondering what to do, and we

Page 9202

 1     also thought that if you're not a proper official and if you're not there

 2     as a person who is there in a proper official capacity, then it shouldn't

 3     be signed.  However, through this persuasion and also on the basis of

 4     this agreement reached with President Milosevic, the decision was made to

 5     sign it after all.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Bogunovic, yesterday, immediately at the outset,

 7     you said that you reviewed this statement that you signed.  You said how

 8     focused you were and what you did notice and what you did not notice.

 9     Yesterday you were providing answers and today you're answering as well.

10     What about now, were you focused when giving these statements before the

11     Court here, now?

12        A.   Well, yes.  I try to be as focused as possible.  I tried to give

13     accurate answers.  Or, rather, to say what it was that had actually

14     happened there.

15        Q.   I'd just like to put one more question to you.  If we were to

16     find certain contradictions between what you said yesterday and today,

17     here, before this Court, on the one hand, and on the other hand what is

18     written in your statement, would you say that what you're saying today is

19     something that we should treat as the truth?

20             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One moment.  Just one moment, Mr. Bogunovic.

22             Ms. Biersay?

23             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I am objecting to this

24     question.  The assessment about truthfulness will be made by this

25     Trial Chamber, and I think posing this question to the witness is

Page 9203

 1     improper and meant to be coaching, and I strongly object to it.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is not the question of assessment.  I don't

 4     ask the witness to assess his statement but to tell us how he looks at

 5     some inconsistencies between his testimony yesterday and today and the

 6     allegations from his statement.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, this question is way too general

 9     and not fair to the witness.  If you have specific instances to show

10     where, in your view, there is a contradiction, you can put a question to

11     the witness but not in general what -- when did you tell the truth.

12             Please continue.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, this is what I'm going to put to

15     you.  For instance, in your statement -- well, let me start with the last

16     thing.  You said that Goran Hadzic met with Milosevic several times in

17     1991, I mean from January onwards, during 1991.  Today you said that you

18     allow for this other possibility; namely, that in actual fact he first

19     met with President Milosevic personally when the Vance Plan was topical.

20     So tell us, what can we rely upon, upon what you said today or upon what

21     is contained in your statement?

22             MS. BIERSAY:  As --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Excuse me.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I believe the

25     Court saw me standing well into the question because I saw exactly where

Page 9204

 1     it was going, and it's again trying to get at the same effect but in a

 2     different way and we object to it.  It is not for this witness to say.

 3     It is for this Court to assess which statement is truthful, not for him

 4     to assess the issue of inconsistencies, if any.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is very specific question about the parts.  If

 7     necessary, I could show the witness the specific paragraphs, but as far

 8     as I know, the Prosecution did not deny that it stands in his statements.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  It is not for the Prosecution to deny that

10     something is in his statement.  It is the Defence's responsibility to

11     direct the witness to the information that they would like to discuss

12     with the witness.  This is not for the Prosecution.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, could you remind us of the date of

15     the signing of the Vance Plan?

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The date of signing of Vance Plan is the

17     23rd of November in Sarajevo, but their meetings were in December --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  November?  Pardon?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  In 1991.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may continue, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             And, Mr. Bogunovic, if you remember the question, you may answer

24     the question.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9205

 1        Q.   If you wish, I'm going to remind you of the question that I put.

 2     Actually, in your statement it says that you said that during 1991, from

 3     January onwards, Hadzic met with President Milosevic.  Today you said

 4     that you allow for this other possibility, that it happened when the

 5     Vance plan was being discussed sometime in 1991.  In view of all of this,

 6     these two different things, what do you do you think is true?  What do

 7     you do you think is correct?

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, before the witness answers, could

 9     you direct us to where in the statement this precision of from January on

10     is to be found?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just a moment.  This is paragraph 17 and it is in

12     paragraph 14 -- paragraph 14, paragraph 17.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And, Mr. Zivanovic, you can't ask the witness

14     which of the statements is true, so please rephrase the question.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you tell us whether the first personal meeting between Hadzic

17     and Milosevic took place then, when the Vance Plan was discussed - that

18     is to say, in November, December 1991 - or whether it happened before

19     that, from January 1991 onwards?

20        A.   Well, you see, I'm sure - and I know, because I was present

21     myself - when the Vance Plan was being discussed and when we were in

22     Belgrade.  However, what Goran said to us -- in the Krajina, in the

23     Slavonia, Baranja area, there were many people who were afraid.  People

24     were asking for weapons, for help.  They were seeking safety and

25     security.  I'm convinced that Goran, on several occasions, said, "No

Page 9206

 1     problem, I agreed all of this with President Milosevic."  Although, to

 2     tell you the truth, I wasn't sure whether he had been with him then or

 3     not, but he said it in order to alleviate the situation as it was at that

 4     moment.  That's probably why he said it.

 5             I cannot claim that he was or that he was not, because I did not

 6     know.  He did not tell anyone that officially.  He did not say, "Yes, I

 7     was there at such and such a date and this is what happened," and so on

 8     and so forth.  I think that this was said to calm these people down so

 9     that there wouldn't be any -- well, how do I put this?  So that people

10     would not lose confidence in themselves, in us, and in order to prevent

11     something that had already happened, namely, when women and children from

12     that area crossed over to Serbia and they were there for about a month

13     until the situation calmed down.  So I am not sure, I cannot tell you

14     whether Goran was there or not.  I mean, he did mention, he said, "Don't

15     worry, don't worry about a thing, I agreed upon all of this with

16     President Milosevic."  But again I'm saying I don't know whether he spoke

17     about this on the phone or whether he went to see him personally:  That's

18     the way it was.

19             Now, I cannot say to you at all whether this is correct or not.

20     Both possibilities are there and I cannot opt for either one.

21        Q.   It says here, among other things, that you said that when the

22     Serbian National Council was being established in January 1991, or

23     between January 1991 and August, he had met with Milosevic five times.

24     Does that mean, in fact, that you don't know exactly whether they had

25     meetings or not?  Do you know?

Page 9207

 1        A.   Let me repeat this:  I was not with him, so I cannot confirm

 2     that, yes, they did meet so -- and so many times.  There was a time, on

 3     the 1st and the 2nd May, when Borovo Selo was attacked and people were

 4     already panicked by that time, they feared for the future of their

 5     children and everything, and then there was a meeting or a discussion or

 6     I don't know what with Mr. Milosevic.  But again, I cannot maintain that

 7     Goran met with Milosevic or didn't meet with him.  I suppose he did, but

 8     I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty that, yes, he met him and I was

 9     there too.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the transcript missed one

11     thing and that is that I referred to paragraph 15 of his statement.

12             [In English] Sorry, may I consult my client for the moment?

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

14                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Just one more question.  Is it the case that in some talks or

17     some discussions you and the others had, perhaps it was misinterpreted

18     when Goran Hadzic said that he had been in Belgrade and you understood it

19     as him having talked to President Milosevic.  Is that possible?

20        A.   Yes, there were such cases when he came and said, "I have been in

21     Belgrade and talked to Milosevic," but I must say that on a couple of

22     occasions his report was not accepted as such.  We doubted that he had

23     actually done that because there were no results.  Nothing happened.  So

24     we began to doubt that he had indeed been to Belgrade and had that

25     contact and had that discussion.


Page 9208

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.  I have no further questions for you.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no more

 3     questions.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, redirect?

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If I could just have a few

 6     seconds to set up.

 7                           Re-examination by Ms. Biersay:

 8        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bogunovic.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   I'd like to go back to yesterday to some questions that you

11     answered for Mr. Zivanovic.  I sometimes will mention a transcript page

12     and that's not meant for you.  It's for the record.  I don't expect you

13     to know what the transcript pages are.

14             At transcript pages 9143 to 9145, you described a meeting

15     happening in Borovo Selo with the then minister of the interior of

16     Croatia, Mr. Boljkovac, do you recall that exchange with Mr. Zivanovic

17     yesterday?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And specifically, you said:

20             "I said to them, I suggest to you that we go to Borovo Selo and I

21     have a staff there."

22             And you explained that they accepted the proposal and you did go

23     to Borovo Selo, and you said:

24             "We were met there in the traditional Serb way with bread and

25     salt."

Page 9209

 1             Do you recall that?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Could you describe who the participants were at that meeting?

 4        A.   In the municipality where I came, there was Savo Davidovic on the

 5     Serbian side from Brsadin, Mr. Mercep from the Croatian side, and the

 6     chief of police from Vukovar.  There was Mr. Slavko Degoricija, prime

 7     minister of Croatia.  Mr. Boljkovac, minister of the interior of Croatia.

 8     And a couple of people I honestly didn't know.

 9        Q.   And who was there from the staff that you mentioned?

10        A.   You mean in Vukovar?

11        Q.   Well, you said that you proposed to go to Borovo Selo, that you

12     had a staff there --

13        A.   [In English] yes.

14        Q.   -- and so it's that staff --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   -- that I wanted to know which members actually attended that

17     meeting?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak into the

19     microphone?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean when we already went to

21     Borovo Selo.

22             MS. BIERSAY:

23        Q.   Correct.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Bogunovic, can you please speak into

25     microphone.

Page 9210

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:

 3        Q.   Actually, Mr. Bogunovic, could you move your chair forward?  It

 4     may be more comfortable for you.

 5        A.   I was talking about who met me in Vukovar and with whom I spoke

 6     in Vukovar.  After that, we went to Borovo Selo where the Main Staff was,

 7     the headquarters, that decided on many things that were happening at that

 8     time in the Slavonia, Baranja area.  And I said that at the Main Staff we

 9     found Vukasin Soskocanin, the commander of the staff, and a couple of

10     more people who happened to be there and who were involved in these

11     discussions where we were trying to decide what to do next.

12        Q.   And for the record, when you say "Main Staff," Main Staff of

13     what?

14        A.   It was not exactly a Main Staff.  It was the headquarters for

15     Borovo Selo, which had about 11.000 population, the largest village in

16     the area.  And we tried to come to a decision --

17        Q.   I --

18        A.   -- together with them what to do.  All the other villages were

19     smaller.  They had smaller staffs or headquarters.

20        Q.   I understand.  My question to you is:  When you said yesterday

21     that you had a staff there in Borovo Selo and when you said just a few

22     seconds ago where the Main Staff was, I'm asking you the Main Staff of

23     what.  That was my question.

24        A.   Main Staff?  Well, their decision was passed on to all the other

25     staffs that existed in every village.  There was a Crisis Staff in every

Page 9211

 1     village looking after the population.  And what was decided in the

 2     Borovo Selo staff was passed on to all the other villages and accepted in

 3     the entire Slavonia, Baranja area.

 4        Q.   And -- excuse me.  One moment, Mr. Bogunovic.  Could you describe

 5     for us in what time-frame this meeting happened, the one where you were

 6     met in the traditional Serb way?

 7        A.   It was some time in May 1991.

 8        Q.   I see.  At transcript page 9194, you mention that Jan, and the

 9     name is written phonetically, and I wondered if you could help us spell

10     it, it's Jan Kisgeci, who was calling every day to ask about problems

11     with Slovaks.  Do you know how to spell that name?

12        A.   Which name was that?

13        Q.   The first name is Jan, the minister of agriculture from the

14     Republic of Serbia?

15        A.   Kisgeci, K-i-s-g-e-c-i.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, yesterday, Mr. Bogunovic, at transcript pages

17     9145 to 9146, you and Mr. Zivanovic discussed Grahovac, Slobodan Grahovac

18     and Dusan Filipovic.  Do you recall that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, you said that you understood Grahovac to be someone who was

21     responsible to someone else to whom he reported.  Do you recall saying

22     that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Bogunovic, before I continue, I wanted to take one step

25     back.  Yesterday you testified that you had had several opportunities to

Page 9212

 1     review this statement; is that correct?  That's what you testified to

 2     yesterday?  Do you recall saying that to the Trial Chamber?

 3        A.   Correct, yes.

 4        Q.   And do you recall that you've also given other statements to

 5     representatives of the OTP?

 6        A.   No, I remember the statements that I have in front of me.

 7        Q.   Do you recall testifying in the Stanisic and Simatovic case?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And, in fact, for your preparation for your testimony here

10     yesterday and today, you reviewed that testimony; is that correct?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Now if I could direct your attention to Exhibit P3204.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  And may I have some assistance in giving to

14     Mr. Bogunovic this hard copy of his statement.  Thank you.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object.  This is not on the Prosecution

16     list.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  Oh, excuse me.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  But this --

19             MS. BIERSAY:  Did I give you the wrong one?  This is his

20     statement dated September 2012, which was admitted yesterday.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  2012?

22             MS. BIERSAY:  2012, yes.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  It's the same one.  Would you like to see it again?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  Yeah.

Page 9213

 1             MS. BIERSAY:

 2        Q.   And if I could direct your attention to paragraph 86, which is on

 3     page 17.  I will read it because it may be difficult to find the sentence

 4     that I'd like to direct your attention to.

 5             "Appointed as the Minister of the Interior in August 1991, my

 6     first duty was to form police stations in the villages of Borovo Selo and

 7     Dalj.  In the Ministry of Interior, there was only a public security

 8     section and I was in charge of it.  There was a separate state security

 9     that was directly subordinated to Goran Hadzic.  At an SAO SBWS

10     government meeting in December 1991, we were informed that the security

11     service had been formally established.  Hadzic called it the

12     Security Service and it functioned based on orders given by Hadzic.  Even

13     though the Security Service was not formally established yet at the end

14     of October 1991, Goran Hadzic sent Dusan Filipovic and a man whose last

15     name was Grahovac to Sid.  I believe they were part of Hadzic's

16     Security Service because they were well-informed about me and the people

17     around me."

18             Have I read that correctly, Mr. Bogunovic?

19        A.   Yes, you read that correctly.  However --

20        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Bogunovic --

21        A.   -- I see here that they --

22        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, one moment.  I haven't yet put a question to you.

23     I just wanted to know if I had read that correctly.  And I did, did I?

24        A.   All right.

25        Q.   So is it correct, as written in your statement, that Goran Hadzic

Page 9214

 1     was the one who sent Dusan Filipovic and Grahovac to Sid?

 2        A.   Well, you see, Dragan Grahovac - now I remember his name - and

 3     Dusan Filipovic were employees of the security service of Serbia.  It was

 4     in fact Badza's team.  I believe that Goran met them first when Badza

 5     brought them to Erdut.

 6        Q.   My --

 7        A.   That's what I think is most probable.

 8        Q.   My question to you is:  Is it correct, as written in your

 9     statement, that Goran Hadzic sent Dusan Filipovic and Grahovac to Sid?

10     Is that accurate?

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I think it would be appropriate to let the

13     witness answer the question.

14             MS. BIERSAY:  I have just put a question to the witness.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic -- Mr. Bogunovic, sorry.

16             MS. BIERSAY:

17        Q.   So were you truthful and accurate when you said Goran Hadzic sent

18     Dusan Filipovic and a man whose last name was Grahovac to Sid?

19        A.   Yes, I said that at the time.  However, now, after everything and

20     after some things that I learned, I doubt they were sent by Goran Hadzic.

21     I believe that was done by Radovan Stojicic, Badza.  I believe it was on

22     his orders that they went there.

23        Q.   So the new information that you got happened after you signed

24     this statement in September of 2012.  Is that what you're saying?

25        A.   Well, I realised that yesterday during our discussion, that Badza

Page 9215

 1     had arrived with 11 people or so.  I thought it was three or four men and

 2     these men did not belong to our structures.

 3        Q.   But let me --

 4        A.   As far as I understood, Filipovic --

 5        Q.   Let me show you another document.

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  If we may have tab 120, which is 65 ter number

 7     29 -- excuse me, it's actually an admitted exhibit, 2979.

 8        Q.   So, Mr. Bogunovic, on the first page can you see number 15, the

 9     name that's there on the first page?  Excuse me, Mr. Bogunovic, if you

10     could look on your screen before you, are you able to see it?

11        A.   All right.

12        Q.   Do you see the name Grahovac, Slobodan, at number 15?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   And underneath, do you see the name Filipovic, Dusan?

15        A.   Dusan Filipovic, yes.

16        Q.   And next to Grahovac, Slobodan, do you see SOSB ZS?

17        A.   I do.

18             MS. BIERSAY:  Could we please go to the next page.  And could we

19     please highlight the paragraph that's right under the word "minutes"?

20        Q.   I will read it to you in the English.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  If we could please go back to the English.

22        Q.   "Minutes from a meeting of the commanders of the

23     Territorial Defence and representatives of the villages of Lovac,

24     Opatovac, Sotin, Tovarnik, and Mohovo, with the deputy minister of the

25     Serbian district and members of the Main Staff of the Serbian district.

Page 9216

 1     The meeting is attended by:"

 2             And do you see the word "Slobodan" underneath?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So according to this document, these people are having a meeting

 5     and the meeting has been attended by commanders of the TO and

 6     representatives of the villages listed.  Do you agree?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  We can remove this document at this time.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment, please.

11             Ms. Biersay, perhaps we should clear up something with regard to

12     the first name of Mr. -- what's his name again?

13             MS. BIERSAY:  Slobodan Grahovac.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Grahovac.  Because at page 15, line 24 of the

15     transcript, in his answer to one of your questions, the witness said:

16     "Well, you see, Dragan Grahovac, now I remember his name, and

17     Dusan Filipovic were employees," et cetera.  Now, is this

18     Mr. Slobodan Grahovac the same person we are talking about now or is it a

19     different person?

20             MS. BIERSAY:

21        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, yesterday you described that there was --

22     Filipovic and Grahovac were always together.  Do you recall that

23     testimony?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Could you tell us whether this person's name that's also at the

Page 9217

 1     same meeting with Dusan Filipovic, the name Slobodan Grahovac, is that

 2     the person who was always with Dusan Filipovic?  You're nodding but we

 3     have to write it down, so we have to hear what you have to say.

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 6        A.   There is one more Grahovac but in Vukovar, that is

 7     Dragan Grahovac in Vukovar.  So I confused the two for a moment.

 8        Q.   I see.

 9        A.   Sorry.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Now I'd like to move to another topic.  At transcript page 9172,

12     you testified yesterday that:  "Our lives," meaning the lives of the -- I

13     think, the government, "would have been easier, much easier, when there

14     were no Badzas and no Arkan."  Do you recall that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And at transcript page 9163, you confirmed that Badza was the

17     commander of the Territorial Defence of the SBWS, and this you did in

18     your conversation with Mr. Zivanovic.  Do you recall that?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. BIERSAY:  At this time, may I please have tab 5 on the screen

21     which is admitted as L38.

22        Q.   We're just waiting for the document to come on the screen,

23     Mr. Bogunovic.

24             Now, this is the minutes of the 17th session of the government of

25     the Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, held on

Page 9218

 1     19 November 1991 in Erdut.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  And I'd like to move to the third page,

 3     specifically I'm looking for item 2.  It's the third page in English.

 4        Q.   And I'll read this.

 5             "Goran Hadzic, president of the government, briefed those present

 6     about the current situation from the international point of view, and the

 7     talks which had been held with the representatives of the Republic of

 8     Serbia and the Yugoslav People's Army.  Radovan Stojicic briefed those

 9     present on the military situation.  The following took part in the

10     discussions," and there is a list of names.

11             The next sentence begins:

12             "A unanimous decision was reached that the commander of the

13     Territorial Defence had their full confidence, and that his status had

14     been established by the decision of the Great People's Assembly which

15     proclaimed that units of the Territorial Defence form a part of the

16     Yugoslav forces."

17             And my question to you, Mr. Bogunovic, this affirms that the

18     government had full confidence in Stojicic.  Does it appear to you in

19     this item that they were condemning him in any way for anything that he

20     had done?

21        A.   Well, to tell you quite frankly, I was not in favour of that,

22     that is to say, to have this person appointed to that position.  However,

23     since the majority wanted that, of course I had to accept it.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.

25        A.   And --

Page 9219

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Bogunovic, at page 9175 of yesterday, the transcript

 2     page, you describe that Badza was the one who dismissed this Cizmic who

 3     was commander of the Dalj police station.  Do you recall that testimony?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd like to now ask that tab 14, which I -- I

 6     believe there is a public redacted version.  It may be best not to

 7     broadcast it, but I think there is a public redacted version.

 8        Q.   I'm just asking for a document to be put on your screen.  And

 9     while we're doing that, if you could look at your statement,

10     Mr. Bogunovic, which you have there, the statement that you have.  If you

11     could go to paragraph 124.

12             MS. BIERSAY:  I think it's Exhibit 119.111.

13        Q.   My question to you is:  Did you -- how soon after this was

14     signed, which is on the 2nd of October, 1991, how soon after that did you

15     hear about the removal of Cizmic from the police station?  Because you

16     describe hearing about it yesterday, and I wanted to know how soon after

17     his removal did you hear about it?

18        A.   I cannot remember exactly now, but when I first came to Erdut to

19     attend a meeting, I heard that Cizmic had been dismissed from the

20     position of commander of the police station in Dalj and that he was

21     dismissed by Lazic and Dragan Djukic, that they replaced him on orders

22     from Zavisic or, rather, Badza.

23        Q.   And now this is dated October 1991 which -- this dismissal

24     happened before the government gave him their full confidence in the

25     document we saw previously; is that correct?

Page 9220

 1        A.   You mean Badza?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   I have to tell you --

 4        Q.   One minute, Mr. --

 5        A.   -- although --

 6        Q.   -- Mr. Bogunovic, I have a very limited amount of time.  I'm

 7     trying to be very specific with my questions, and so I would appreciate

 8     it if you answered my questions --

 9        A.   [In English] Okay.

10        Q.   -- that I ask specifically.

11        A.   Okay.

12        Q.   And so my specific question is:  This dismissal happens in

13     October 1991 and the full confidence that's given to Badza happens in

14     November of 1991.  Would you agree with that?

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that the contents of --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] --

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- the document of the minutes from

19     20 of November were misrepresented to the witness.  He got just the

20     confidence in one area.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Is Mr. Zivanovic testifying?  I'm sorry, I don't

22     understand.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, no.  It is my objection.  And I could say it

24     and I could explain it, but not in front of the witness.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  I -- that's fine, Your Honour.  I'll move on to

Page 9221

 1     another topic.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MS. BIERSAY:

 4        Q.   At transcript page 9158, Mr. Bogunovic, you describe that you

 5     were told to keep in touch with Badza because he was -- this is what is

 6     in the transcript, so you won't find it in your statement.  You describe

 7     that you were told to keep in touch with Badza because he was from MUP

 8     Serbia.  Do you recall telling Mr. Zivanovic that yesterday?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And who told you to keep in touch with Badza because he was from

11     MUP Serbia?

12        A.   Well, when I came to Erdut to attend this meeting, I was told, I

13     mean, Goran told me and some other people told me that Badza had come

14     there as an employee of the MUP of Serbia and that I have to have contact

15     with him.

16        Q.   I'd like to show you another document.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  And this document doesn't have a tab number.  It

18     was not on our list from -- that we sent.  And this is P251.245.  And

19     this arises from Mr. Bogunovic's testimony yesterday regarding Badza's

20     involvement in the dismissal of Cizmic.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that this document is not on the list of

23     the Prosecution.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Right.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, but Ms. Biersay gave the reason why she's

Page 9222

 1     calling that document, which is specific for redirect, I think.  Wouldn't

 2     you agree?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I agree.  Thank you.

 4             MS. BIERSAY:  And I'll -- this is a --

 5        Q.   I'll read this document.  It's dated 16 October 1991:

 6             "During its session held on 16 October 1991, and in accordance

 7     with Article 2, paragraph 1, item 6 of the Law on the Government of the

 8     Serb Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, the Government of the

 9     Serb Region area of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem has passed a

10     decision on the dismissal of the secretary of the Vukovar Secretariat of

11     Interior.

12             "Janko Milakovic shall be dismissed from his position as the

13     Secretary of the Vukovar Secretariat of the Interior ..."

14             And it has the name -- do you recognise the name at the bottom of

15     that, Goran Hadzic?  Do you see that on your screen, this document?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   So this document was not signed by Badza, was it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was it signed by Badza or is it signed by Goran Hadzic?

20        A.   Goran Hadzic.

21             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honours, I have a video that I'd like to play.

22     The video is actually a video of Mr. Bogunovic testifying in the

23     Stanisic/Simatovic case.  We have the transcripts on the 65 ter exhibit

24     list, 65 ter 4466 and 67, but as the Court is well aware, transcripts are

25     not available in Mr. Bogunovic's language.  So the idea is to have him

Page 9223

 1     listen to the video in his language and have it interpreted for the rest

 2     of us.  And the interpreters have been provided copies of the

 3     transcripts, which are 65 ter number 4466 and 4467.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is no objection, so please do.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:

 6        Q.   Before I turn to your Stanisic and Simatovic testimony,

 7     Mr. Bogunovic, you testified in 2010; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And at that time you had not been -- you had not yet committed

10     the crime for which you were convicted; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   So you testified before all of those events?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Are you aware that Mr. Hadzic was a fugitive from this Tribunal

15     before he was arrested by this Tribunal?

16        A.   Well, I heard something but I'm not sure.  I mean, that it was

17     that time and that -- that he was wanted as a fugitive.

18        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Hadzic was arrested by this Tribunal in

19     July of 2011?

20        A.   Yes, I heard that.  It was on television and I saw it.

21        Q.   So what I'd like to now address is the information that you

22     provided the Trial Chamber yesterday and today about what Mr. Hadzic told

23     you and what you knew about Stanisic, Jovica Stanisic and

24     Slobodan Milosevic.  Do you recall discussing those issues with

25     Mr. Zivanovic?

Page 9224

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  So at this time I'd like to turn to -- on paper

 3     it's 65 ter number 4466, and the transcript pages run from 5972, line 1,

 4     to 5973, line 19, and they will correspond to the video at 25 minutes and

 5     2 seconds to 30 minutes and 26 seconds.

 6        Q.   So at this time, Mr. Bogunovic, I am going to play this testimony

 7     for you and I want you to listen to it very carefully.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voice-over] "A.  I became aware of it during a

10     meeting when Goran told all of us that he had been to Belgrade and that

11     he had an agreement with President Milosevic to go on with our work and

12     establish a government.  He also said that we enjoyed their support and

13     that everyone was aware of that.

14             "Q.  How often would Goran Hadzic go to Belgrade to meet with

15     Slobodan Milosevic between January 1991 and the formation of the SAO SBWS

16     government in August of 1991?

17             "A.  That was on several occasions.  On several occasions he

18     conveyed a message to us.  I'm not sure he informed us about all of his

19     visits, but those visits probably happened five or six times during that

20     period of time.

21             "Q.  When did you first hear of Jovica Stanisic being present at

22     these meetings in Belgrade?

23             "A.  Well, I heard that.  Goran told us.  He told us that he went

24     to visit President Milosevic together with Jovica Stanisic.

25             "Q.  Approximately when did Goran Hadzic tell you about this

Page 9225

 1     meeting with Jovica Stanisic and President Milosevic?

 2             "A.  He told us that on the eve of the setting up of the

 3     SAO Krajina government.

 4             "Q.  Did you hear of Jovica Stanisic being present at all

 5     meetings held from January 1991 to August 1991?

 6             "A.  Well, as far as I could learn from Hadzic who informed us

 7     about what was going on, yes.

 8             "Q.  When is the earliest point in time that you heard of

 9     Jovica Stanisic being present at meetings in Belgrade?

10             "A.  Well, I heard that sometime after the 1st of May, after the

11     conflicts broke out in Borovo Selo.  That was when he informed us that

12     Jovica Stanisic had also attended a meeting.

13             "Q.  Between May and August 1991, how often did Hadzic go to

14     Belgrade for these meetings?

15             "A.  I think -- or, rather, as far as I know from his reports

16     during that period, he attended such meetings about four times, meetings

17     in Belgrade."

18             MS. BIERSAY:  For the record, I believe the English translation

19     for the -- our transcript here today began at page 5972, line 13, of

20     65 ter number 4466, so I will just read the few lines before then.

21             "Q.  Between the formation of the SDS party in May of 1990 and

22     the establishment of the Serb National Council on 7th January 1991, did

23     you become aware of any communications between Goran Hadzic and

24     Slobodan Milosevic?

25             "A.  Goran Hadzic mentioned going to Belgrade and he said that

Page 9226

 1     there he would meet Slobodan Milosevic.  He would then convey that to us

 2     during various meetings.

 3             "Q.  In paragraph 15 of Exhibit P554," and for the -- "... you

 4     state that Goran Hadzic went to Belgrade a number of times during 1991 to

 5     meet with Stanisic and with Slobodan Milosevic."

 6             And it quotes that section of the exhibit.

 7             "I know that because in government meetings Hadzic often

 8     mentioned these meetings."

 9             The question was posed to the witness:

10             "When did you become aware of Hadzic going to these meetings in

11     Belgrade in 1991?"

12             And after that he answered:

13             "I became aware of it during a meeting when Goran told all of

14     us," and I believe the rest was translated.

15        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, did you recognise yourself in that video that we

16     just played?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And was that testimony that you gave truthful?

19        A.   I think that I said what I knew and what I heard.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.

21        A.   That is to say --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, I would like to hear the witness's

23     answer in its entirety, please.

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, shall I read what you just said and then there was

Page 9227

 1     an end.  You said -- I asked you whether that testimony was truthful, and

 2     you said:

 3             "I think that I said what I knew and what I heard ..."

 4        A.   And that is what I could say at that moment, because I had not

 5     known of anything else.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bogunovic.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Mr. President, are you satisfied with -- okay.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I am, thank you.

 9             MS. BIERSAY:  I'd now like to play another clip, and this is also

10     from your Stanisic, Simatovic testimony.  And on paper it's 65 ter number

11     4466, from transcript page 5995 --

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We'd like to know --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- whether the Prosecution impeach its own

15     witness?

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay, I think, although the translation is

17     not complete, that Mr. Zivanovic asks or wants to know whether you

18     impeach your own witness?

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I am pointing out to the witness his previous

20     statement, leaving it up to him to tell us whether it was truthful or not

21     and he has done so.  I am seeking to show that the leading questions

22     asked yesterday and today by Mr. Zivanovic got imprecise and sometimes

23     information, yes, that was -- that is inconsistent with what he has said

24     previously.  So I am seeking to corroborate his statement and not to

25     impeach him to that extent.

Page 9228

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  And so at this time if we could go to the second

 3     clip.  And as I was saying, it goes from transcript page 595 -- 5995,

 4     line 12, to 5996, line 24.  And the tape runs from 21.36 to 25.06.

 5        Q.   So, Mr. Bogunovic, I'll play another clip and if you could listen

 6     once again to this, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]  "Q.  In your previous statements

 9     you describe personally meeting with Jovica Stanisic on three to four

10     occasions.  In paragraph 14 of Exhibit P554, you discuss a late August

11     1991 meeting in Novi Sad in the Vojvodina building -- excuse me, in the

12     building of the Vojvodina police.  What is the reason that you and Hadzic

13     went to this meeting in Novi Sad?

14             "A.  The reason we went to Novi Sad was the setting up of police

15     stations in Dalj and Borovo Selo.  We went there to discuss getting

16     uniforms for the police, small arms and rifles, as well as means of

17     communication and a couple of vehicles that would be used by our police.

18             "Q.  In paragraph 13 of Exhibit P553, you state as follows:

19             "'Radovan Stojicic, also known as Badza, was with the Serbian

20     MUP, acted as co-ordinator and gave us guidelines on what to do.  He was

21     the one who said we could go to Novi Sad and get the uniforms and

22     equipment.'

23             "How did Badza co-ordinate that meeting in Novi Sad?

24             "A.  Badza co-ordinated the meeting through Goran Hadzic.  He

25     told him that we should go to Novi Sad and that I should go as the

Page 9229

 1     minister of the interior, and we were supposed to discuss the hand-over

 2     of all the aforesaid things.

 3             "Q.  Was this meeting the first time that you met Jovica Stanisic

 4     in person?

 5             "A.  I am not sure whether that was the first or the second time.

 6     I believe it was the first time.

 7             "Q.  Approximately how long did this meeting in Novi Sad last?

 8             "A.  The meeting was rather short.  The decision was made to give

 9     us what we had requested.  Near Novi Sad there is a place called Klisa,

10     there was a police depot there.  Some ten or 15 minutes after that

11     meeting I already went to that place, Klisa, and they began to deliver to

12     me the uniforms and all the other things that I mentioned.

13             "Q.  Who did this police depot belong to?

14             "A.  To the MUP of Vojvodina; specifically, the regional

15     secretariat in Novi Sad.

16             "Q.  Okay.  And the MUP of Vojvodina is a part of which MUP?

17             "A.  The MUP of Serbia.

18             "Q.  Could you please describe the uniforms that were provided to

19     you for the police forces of the SAO SBWS?

20             "A.  The uniforms were the same as the uniforms worn by the

21     Serbian police, the police of Serbia.  Trousers, shirts, short-barrelled

22     weapons, just like the police in Serbia."

23             MS. BIERSAY:

24        Q.   And I'll put the same question to you, Mr. Bogunovic.  Is that

25     information -- that testimony that you gave before the case in Stanisic

Page 9230

 1     and Simatovic, was that accurate and truthful?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Does it refresh your recollection about the timing of the

 4     Novi Sad meeting where you met Stanisic?

 5        A.   I think it was in the beginning of October 1991.  I'm not sure

 6     but I think that's when was it was.

 7             MS. BIERSAY:  Your Honour, I have a -- Your Honours, I have

 8     another short clip, and I was just looking at the time and wondered if

 9     the Court would prefer to take the break a few minutes early.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If you -- if this is an appropriate moment --

11             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes, it is.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- for you.  We'll take a break, then, until

13     11.00.  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

19             MR. GOSNELL:  Good morning, Mr. President --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning.

21             MR. GOSNELL:  -- Your Honours.  This is a brief oral submission

22     in respect of the procedure that was followed before the break in terms

23     of putting portions of a --

24             MS. BIERSAY:  Objection, Your Honour.  Well, it's not an

25     objection.  It's a proposal that we have this discussion, perhaps,


Page 9231

 1     outside the presence of the witness or without him wearing his

 2     headphones.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm informed the witness doesn't speak English, so

 4     I believe removing the headphones would be sufficient.

 5             MS. BIERSAY:  Or, on the other hand, we could also wait until

 6     he's finished testifying.  I don't -- I have, perhaps, four or five more

 7     questions and I don't know if this is something that needs to be done

 8     with the witness here.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  The reason I rose now, and I -- I, of course, I am

10     loath to do it at this stage.

11             MS. BIERSAY:  And again, this is being translated, I believe, to

12     the witness, and I just wonder if it's prudent --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, do you understand English?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could I ask you to take off your headphones,

16     please.

17             Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  The reason I did so now, Mr. President, is because

19     the timeliness of the objection may be an issue, so I wish to put this on

20     record as soon as I possibly could when my learned friend and I became

21     aware of the state of the law in respect of the manner in which the

22     witness was being questioned by the Prosecution.  And, Your Honours, if I

23     may just direct you to a very brief passage of an Appeals Chamber

24     judgement -- decision from the 1st of February, 2008, in the Popovic

25     case.

Page 9232

 1             And, Your Honours, I won't take you through this in detail, but I

 2     just wish to give you the few sentences that are relevant.

 3             The Appeals Chamber there, in respect of a Trial Chamber oral

 4     decision, said:

 5             "The Trial Chamber's practice to date, as well as that of other

 6     Trial Chambers, demonstrates a general, if not altogether consistent

 7     approach, that puts the decision to allow a party to put a prior

 8     statement to its own witness and cross-examine that witness in the hands

 9     of the Trial Chamber.  This may or may not be done on the basis of a

10     prior determination of hostility.  In this light, the Appeals Chamber

11     considers that the Trial Chamber's decision to put the determination to

12     impeach in the hands of the calling party constitutes a discernible

13     error.  It further considers that the Trial Chamber committed a

14     discernible error in deciding to leave the scope of the challenge to the

15     discretion of the impeaching party.  It may be that the Trial Chamber

16     will decide to allow a calling party to put a prior inconsistent

17     statement to its witness in order to clarify a particular contradiction

18     without declaring the witness hostile.  The interests of justice dictate

19     a certain measure of flexibility.  However, this again will be a matter

20     for the Trial Chamber to determine in the circumstances before it."

21             Now, Mr. President, what I interpret that to mean is that when a

22     party wishes to put a prior statement of a witness to its own witness for

23     the purpose of showing an element that is different to what has been

24     adduced, then that in substance is impeachment, and I believe that my

25     learned friend opposite candidly indicated that to some extent that was

Page 9233

 1     indeed the purpose of showing the prior statements from the Stanisic

 2     case.  And what I suggest this instruction from the Appeals Chamber

 3     indicates is that it is for Your Honours to decide whether that should be

 4     permitted and to specifically determine the basis and the scope of the

 5     questioning that is permitted.  And why is that?  Because it's a

 6     departure from the traditional principles of examination and

 7     cross-examination, and the Appeals Chamber discusses the foundation and

 8     the policy factors for its final conclusion.

 9             Now, it's true that we on this side of the courtroom didn't stand

10     up and assert a vociferous insistence that Your Honours make such a

11     determination, but we do so now.  We do make that insistence.  And we

12     would also ask that as a remedy for the -- for what has occurred, that --

13     in terms of presenting these prior portions of the witness's statement,

14     we would ask -- if Your Honours determine that you did -- were assisted

15     and that it was permissible, the impeachment that occurred before the

16     break, then we would ask that you admit the cross-examination portion of

17     the transcript that was being used by the Prosecution because the only

18     portions that were used with the witness were from the direct

19     examination, and that leaves you with a partial view as to what the

20     witness said in that previous statement, which is testimony.

21             So that would be our request.  If that request is denied, I can

22     say that we would request some additional time, an adjournment, so that

23     preparation can be made for further questions focusing on the relevant

24     portions of the statement that was used by the Prosecution.  So,

25     Your Honours, that would be our submission and our request.

Page 9234

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

 2             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             I think given the legal issues that are being raised that this

 4     should properly be briefed.  If the Defence persists in this view, then

 5     it's our position that they should make the submissions in writing so

 6     that we can have also an opportunity to respond in writing and that the

 7     positions can be considered fully.  So I don't think this is an issue

 8     that needs to be dealt with right now.  I don't plan on using any more

 9     videos with the witness, and so I'm happy to move on to another topic and

10     so that this can be addressed with more time.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MS. BIERSAY:  May I make -- excuse me, Your Honour, may I make a

13     proposal --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

15             MS. BIERSAY:  -- from the Prosecution side --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

17             MS. BIERSAY:  -- regarding the proposal by my colleague.  The

18     Prosecution would be prepared to have the Defence select the portions of

19     the cross-examination that pertain just to the excerpts that I have

20     addressed with this witness.  So we don't object to, I think it's what

21     Mr. Gosnell is proposing, I could be wrong, that the corresponding

22     cross-examination that's relevant to what I showed Mr. Bogunovic can also

23     be entered into evidence for impeachment purposes.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Gosnell.

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I certainly wouldn't want to

Page 9235

 1     pre-empt Your Honours' decision, and I believe the first of the three

 2     potential remedies requested would obviate the need for any discussion of

 3     the resolution proposed to the second question, so I suppose I would -- I

 4     would simply ask that there be a ruling on the first remedy which was

 5     exclusion of the testimony that was heard relying on the prior testimony.

 6     And if Your Honours rule against that, then I could perhaps come back

 7     more specifically on the proposal.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll take a break to -- yes, Mr. --

 9             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise for the intervention --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- Stringer.

11             MR. STRINGER:  -- because my colleague is obviously doing an

12     outstanding job with this.  I don't think we understood that an entire

13     exclusion was a proposal or a remedy that was made in counsel's initial

14     submissions.  We understood that based upon the excerpt from the

15     Appeals Chamber ruling - I think it was in Popovic - that first of all

16     this is a matter for the Chamber's -- Trial Chamber's discretion, how it

17     wants to handle all this, and that in order to inform the Chamber and

18     perhaps place it in a position to more -- exercise its discretion in a

19     more informed manner, to admit corresponding parts of the

20     cross-examination to the extent that they may exist, we don't know, but

21     to the extent that there is cross-examination that relates to those parts

22     that the witness has spoken about, that those, from a Prosecution point

23     of view, could be admitted or accepted for purposes of -- inform the

24     Chamber's consideration how it wants to weigh all of these statements,

25     both those made in the courtroom now today, yesterday, as well as those

Page 9236

 1     made previously in the Stanisic/Simatovic case.

 2             So we didn't understand that there was a proposal to exclude all

 3     of this.  Maybe I misunderstood.  We think that based on the very passage

 4     from Popovic, that's not a remedy that's justified or is certainly not

 5     compelled in that the Chamber can, in fact, consider any corresponding

 6     cross-examination, weigh all of it, and determine what use, if any, it

 7     wants to make from the statements made by the witness in the prior case.

 8     Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Gosnell, do I understand -- I'm a bit confused

10     as to your first proposal, but do I understand a part of your concerns,

11     to use as vague a term as possible, to be that the -- you would need to

12     be placed in the position to cross-examine the witness -- to further

13     cross-examine the witness in respect of those, the corresponding portions

14     of the transcript.  And if that is -- my understanding is correct, how

15     much time are we talking about in terms of -- because, of course, you're

16     aware of the circumstances of the witness.  I'm wondering how much time

17     the very practical effects of that in terms of how do you see yourself

18     being placed in the position of, you know?

19             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President and Judge Hall, let me try to just

20     respond very succinctly and concretely.  As to the first remedy, I looked

21     back at the transcript and I saw that I requested that you render a

22     decision determining whether or not the manner in which the prior

23     statements was used was permissible, and I did not expressly say that the

24     consequence of a decision saying it was not permissible was that the

25     portions of the testimony should be excluded from your consideration.  I

Page 9237

 1     now make that express.  That would be the request.

 2             Your Honours, I am well aware of the jurisprudence and the

 3     practice of this Tribunal that that's not a very likely outcome that

 4     Your Honours would reach, and therefore I propose two other remedies so

 5     that you would have that available for your consideration.

 6             The second remedy would be to permit us to tender the

 7     cross-examination portions of the Stanisic testimony.  In principle, it's

 8     not -- the proposal by the Prosecution is perhaps reasonable.  There

 9     might be discussions about what is the scope of what should be admitted

10     in order to correspond to what has been presented to the witness, so

11     there may be issues there and I wouldn't want to take a final position on

12     that.

13             Judge Hall, as to the third remedy and option, it would be that

14     we be given sufficient time, because I know that Your Honours, on some

15     occasions in the past, have had concerns about admitting large prior

16     statements of a witness.  And to respond to that concern, and given the

17     fact that this was the extent of use of this prior -- of this prior

18     testimony, my learned colleague would need some time to go through the

19     Stanisic cross-examination to determine which portions are necessary to

20     be put to the witness.  Concretely, and I haven't had a chance to speak

21     with my learned friend, but having gone carefully through that transcript

22     myself, I can say that it would probably take at least a couple of hours,

23     at least, in order to specifically determine which portions are relevant.

24     And, of course, we'd also very much appreciate the videos from the

25     Prosecution.  If that could facilitate the process.

Page 9238

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We will take a break to discuss in Chambers what

 2     the best course of action is.

 3             But before I do that, before I adjourn, Ms. Biersay, I did

 4     understand you well.  If we continue Mr. Bogunovic's testimony, the

 5     redirect, you would move to another topic --

 6             MS. BIERSAY:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- to other topics?

 8             MS. BIERSAY:  I will not be showing any more of the video.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, we are adjourned.

10                           --- Break taken at 11.20 a.m.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- On resuming at 12.03 p.m.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The Chamber will allow the Defence to put to the

14     witness those portions of his prior cross-examination from Stanisic and

15     Simatovic as it considers necessary.

16             Is the counsel able to do so immediately after the Prosecution's

17     redirect?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Stringer.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             Just to round this off, because during the break now the

23     Prosecution has had an opportunity to read the decision that my learned

24     friend had referred to, and just to note or perhaps to put on the record

25     the Prosecution position that when it's all finished with the witness,


Page 9239

 1     when he's completed his testimony, that it's in our view -- or it's our

 2     position that the Chamber in its discretion, of course, if it wishes,

 3     will be able to consider the prior statements, whether on direct or from

 4     cross-examination, in the Stanisic/Simatovic case either for impeachment

 5     or as substantive evidence.  And that's a point that's made clear in the

 6     Popovic decision by the Appeals Chamber that on that point, which is sort

 7     of the next question, perhaps, once the witness has completed his

 8     testimony, that is something that the Chamber has the discretion to

 9     consider the extent to which it will accept the prior statements either

10     as impeachment or as substantive evidence.  And it's the Prosecution

11     position, of course, that the Chamber very -- might well wish to consider

12     these as substantive evidence.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The witness may be brought in.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, thank you for your patience.  I will not be

18     showing you another video.  Instead, I have just one last segment to

19     address with you.  I want to direct your attention to this morning when

20     counsel, Mr. Zivanovic, at page 2 of the transcript, said that he had

21     information from a large part -- number of participants at the Velepromet

22     meeting on the 20th, that it was chaired by a lieutenant-colonel of the

23     JNA, who introduced himself as the commander of the city of Vukovar.  Do

24     you recall that question?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 9240

 1        Q.   And when he asked if you could confirm it, you said "yes," that

 2     you confirmed that information about the lieutenant-colonel being present

 3     and chairing the meeting.  Do you recall that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So my -- one of my questions to you is:  Who was this

 6     lieutenant-colonel of the JNA?

 7        A.   Lieutenant-colonel of the JNA?

 8        Q.   Who was present --

 9        A.   I think --

10        Q.   Sorry, who was present at the meeting, at the Velepromet meeting,

11     with other --

12        A.   Yes.  Mr. Mrksic.

13             MS. BIERSAY:  I have nothing further at this time, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bogunovic, first I'm going to ask you about

19     what happened in Borovo Selo, what you explained to the Prosecutor just

20     now in response to the question that was put to you by them.  Actually,

21     that meeting with the Croatian representatives in Borovo Selo.  You spoke

22     about that yesterday as well.  I can actually tell you exactly what page

23     it was.  What the transcript page was, that is.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

25             MS. BIERSAY:  Sorry, perhaps I haven't understood the procedure,

Page 9241

 1     but I thought that the recross was going to be on the issue that we

 2     discussed earlier in the Court's ruling.  Is this something else?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, it -- this question are follow-up from the

 4     re-examination of the witness in respect of the meeting in Borovo Selo.

 5     For the time being.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I do understand that you have one or perhaps --

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One --

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- one question.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, just one question in this respect.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Do you have a problem with that,

13     Ms. Biersay?

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I refer to the page 9143 of yesterday's

15     transcript.

16             MS. BIERSAY:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You explained this -- or, rather, you spoke about this meeting.

20     As far as I understood you, you said that it happened when Goran was

21     arrested in Plitvice?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'm asking you this because in response to the Prosecutor's

24     question you said that this happened in May to the best of your

25     recollection.  According to my information, Goran Hadzic was arrested in

Page 9242

 1     Plitvice on the 31st of March, 1991.  So I wanted to ask you whether you

 2     stand by what you said, that it happened in May or, rather, that it

 3     happened at this other point in time?  More specifically, that should be

 4     the first days of April.

 5        A.   Well, I cannot tell you with 100 per cent certainty.  It wasn't

 6     May.  That's a mistake.  Because there was no meeting on the 2nd of May

 7     because what happened happened.  So it could have been only on the

 8     1st of or 2nd of April when we had that meeting in Borovo Selo.  The

 9     2nd of May - how do I put this? - there was this attack against

10     Borovo Selo or, rather, that gun-fire and everything else that happened.

11        Q.   Mr. Bogunovic, now I'm going to put something to you, part of the

12     answers that you provided in the Stanisic/Simatovic case.  These are

13     answers given to Defence counsel for Jovica Stanisic.  In a way we

14     believe that this could complete the questions that were put to you by

15     the Prosecutor when showing you the video footage.  I don't have the

16     video, though, but I'm going to read out this text to you.  It's in the

17     English language and you are going to receive interpretation.  So I'd

18     kindly ask you to give me answers.

19             MS. BIERSAY:  I rise just for -- may I please have a page

20     reference?

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.  These are page 6007 through 6015, and 6040

22     to 6044.

23             MS. BIERSAY:  And for the record, the first range is in tab 82,

24     which is 65 ter number 4466.  And I believe the second range is in

25     tab 83, 65 ter 4467, if that helps.

Page 9243

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I read from the page 6007, line 15.

 2        Q.   "Mr. Jordash:  Please go to paragraph 25.  The B/C/S paragraphs

 3     correspond to the English paragraphs, so, yes, paragraph 25 in both the

 4     English and the B/C/S.

 5             "Q.  And, Mr. Bogunovic, could you please look at the surrounding

 6     context because I want to understand precisely what it is you meant by

 7     this paragraph.

 8             "A.  In this part of my statement I stated that I had no contacts

 9     with any person from the DB and that there isn't anything I could say on

10     that topic."

11             [Interpretation] Do you remember --

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   -- that you provided such an answer?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   [In English] "Q.  The investigator speaking to you in 2003, in

16     relation to the DB was asking you about what role the DB had played in

17     the events in the SBWS in 1991 and 1992; is that correct?

18             "A.  Yes, it is.

19             "Q.  And am I correct that your answer at paragraph 25 took into

20     account both civilian and military matters concerning 1991 and 1992; is

21     that correct?

22             "A.  I'm afraid I did not understand your question.  Could you

23     please repeat.

24             "Q.  The -- when you answered that the DB had -- let me start

25     that again.  When you stated that you had no contact with the DB, who

Page 9244

 1     were you referring to when you said that 'we had no contact with the DB?'

 2     Who was 'we?'

 3             "A.  We of the government from the area.  At least I'm not

 4     familiar with this.

 5             "Q.  And when you say 'the government,' are you referring to --

 6     just give me a moment.

 7             "A.  The government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

 8             "Q.  Were you also referring to the National Council which

 9     existed before the government?

10             "A.  Yes, I was.  As of the 7th of January when the

11     National Council was established in 1991 and onwards."

12             [Interpretation] You remember those answers?

13        A.   Yes, correct.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             [In English] "Q.  And were you referring to issues concerning the

16     JNA when you stated that you did not know what role the DB had played?

17             "A.  No.  The question was about the State Security Service, and

18     I said what I said.  I said that we had no contacts with them.  As for

19     the JNA, we did have contact with them, with the people who at that time

20     were in the Sirmium-Baranja region.

21             "Q.  So you are saying that whatever the government or

22     National Council was engaged in the SBWS, it had, as far as you were

23     aware, no contacts with the DB of Serbia?

24             "A.  Yes, that's what I said.

25             "Q.  And putting aside your direct contacts, the government's

Page 9245

 1     direct contacts with the DB, were you also saying that you did not know

 2     what role the DB had played and you had not been told what role they

 3     might have played; is that correct?

 4             "A.  Yes, it is.

 5             "Q.  Do you stand by that answer today?

 6             "A.  I do."

 7             [Interpretation] You remember those answers that you provided?

 8     You remember the questions and the answers?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   [In English] "Q.  I want to ask you about some of your

11     activities.  As paragraph 12 notes:

12             "'As the minister of the interior, my first duty was to form the

13     police station in the village of Borovo Selo and Dalj.  Our task was to

14     find people and choose those who would work there and also to provide

15     them with uniforms, equipment, vehicles,' et cetera.

16             "Are you with me, Mr. Bogunovic?

17             "A.  I am.

18             "Q.  Am I correct that your first duty was an urgent one because

19     of the chaos which existed at that time in parts of the region of the

20     SBWS.

21             "A.  I did not understand.  I did not understand the question

22     well.

23             "Q.  It is important that you moved quickly to form a police

24     station in both Borovo Selo and Dalj because civilians of both

25     ethnicities were being harassed by, let me put it generally, men with

Page 9246

 1     guns; is that correct?

 2             "A.  Yes, it is.

 3             "Q.  And so your task was an urgent one --"

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We just noted that the transcript page is the

 6     same on the screen.  But I think --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I was trying to convey to you, Mr. Zivanovic, to

 8     go a little bit slower --

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Slow.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- for the transcript.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

12        Q.   "And so your task was an urgent one and your task required

13     supplies which you didn't at the time possess; is that correct?

14             "A.  It is."

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   "Q.  You were setting up police stations from scratch, if you

17     understand that statement?

18             "A.  Yes.

19             "Q.  And so you --

20             "A.  Correct.  That's correct.

21             "Q.  And so you look towards the Novi Sad SUP to provide some of

22     those supplies to enable you to set up police stations; is that correct?

23             "A.  Yes.

24             "Q.  And the SUP provided some basic supplies to allow you to set

25     up police station; is that correct?

Page 9247

 1             "A.  Yes, it is.

 2             "Q.  And at paragraph 13 you state that part of those supplies

 3     included guns from the SUP Novi Sad; is that correct?

 4             "A.  From the warehouse I specified.  That's where --"

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   "That's where we received supplies from.  It belonged to the SUP

 7     of Novi Sad.

 8             "Q.  And were those supplies used by the police officers in the

 9     police stations that you refer to at paragraph 12 and 14?

10             "A.  Yes.

11             "Q.  And did those police stations as a general rule bring some

12     law and order to the SBWS region, or certainly those villages referred to

13     in your statement?

14             "A. Yes, they did, not only in those villages but in the villages

15     surrounding them."

16             [Interpretation] You remember that?

17        A.   Yes, correct.

18        Q.   [In English] "Q. What specific role did you have once the police

19     stations had been set up in relation to those police stations?

20             "A.  I wanted the people working for the police to do their work

21     properly and fairly irrespective of the ethnic background of anyone,

22     including those who had violated the law and who acted well beyond what

23     would one would consider normal in such circumstances.

24             "Q.  Were you then in charge of these police stations?

25             "A.  Yes, I was, but they all had their own respective station

Page 9248

 1     commanders.  At the ministry, I also had a number of associates assisting

 2     me in doing everything properly.

 3             "Q.  On a day-to-day level were you making the operative

 4     operational decisions about how the police stations or how the commanders

 5     of the police station should work?

 6             "A.  Yes, together with my staff at the ministry we worked on

 7     that.  I had people who had worked for the police for a number of years

 8     and who were familiar with many tasks.

 9             "Q.  Were you attempting to protect only Serbians, or were you

10     trying to protect civilians in general?

11             "A.  As I have said a moment ago, it was our duty and obligation

12     to protect all citizens living there, those who behaved properly, who did

13     not do anything wrong and lived normally.

14             "Q.  Were you personally in daily or weekly contact with Hadzic

15     at this time?

16             "A.  Yes, I was.  Perhaps not daily but at least weekly."

17             [Interpretation] You remember that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   [In English] "What was his attitude towards the work you were

20     doing?

21             "A.  He never said that something was wrong.  He seemed content

22     with what I was doing at least as far as I know.

23             "Q.  Looking at paragraph 14, Mr. Bogunovic, and the first

24     statement there, the first sentence states:

25             'After other areas were freed, there was a need for new stations

Page 9249

 1     to be set point up ...' Then there is's a whole list of stations.  What

 2     did you mean when you said 'after other areas were freed?'  Why did you

 3     use the word 'freed?'

 4             "A.  I used the word 'freed' because there were parts of that

 5     region which were inaccessible to us.  There were barricades, and no

 6     movement was possible for civilians and Serbian civilians in particular

 7     to move about those parties.

 8             "Q.  Are you able to pin-point with any accuracy when it was that

 9     the villages in the SBWS were freed, as you describe it?  Was there a

10     point in time when the government agreed that the villages had been

11     freed?

12             "A.  On the 20th of September, we began liberating such

13     locations, and Vukovar was freed sometime in November, around

14     20th of November.  That's the period in question.

15             "Q.  And so by November or late November, early December, all the

16     villages had been freed?

17             "A.  Yes, as well as Vukovar.

18             "Q.  When did the JNA leave the region?

19             "A.  The JNA left the region, as far as I recall, towards the end

20     of 1991 or the beginning of 1992.

21             "Q.  And until they left the region, they were in effective

22     command of the freeing of villages; is that correct?

23             "A.  Yes.

24             "Q.  Would you have a look at paragraph 23 of your statement,

25     P553, please.  'We didn't notice the presence of the MUP of Serbia in the

Page 9250

 1     take-over of the villages.  Everything was led by the army.'  Would you

 2     agree with me, then, what you saw and what you observed was the JNA and

 3     not the MUP of Serbia involved in freeing the villages?

 4             "A.  Yes, the military and the Territorial Defence together were

 5     liberating the villages.  The military administration ruled over the

 6     entire area up to the 23rd of December, as far as I can remember.

 7             "Q.  The remainder of the paragraph, paragraph 23, states:

 8             "'Apart from Badza, Zavisic, and perhaps one or two other men, we

 9     didn't notice anyone else from MUP there.'

10             "Would you agree with me that up until --

11             "A.  Yes, correct.

12             "Q.  Would you agree with me that when Badza arrived, he -- no,

13     let me strike that.  When did Badza arrive in the SBWS region, can you

14     remember?

15             "A. As far as I can remember, it was a long time ago.  That was

16     sometime around mid-August or perhaps even towards the end of August.

17     Possibly even the beginning of September, but I can't remember.

18             "Q.  Was this around the time you were setting up the police

19     stations?

20             "A.  Yes.

21             "Q.  Did Badza come with members of a special unit from the

22     public security of Serbia?

23             "A.  No."

24             [Interpretation] You remember these answers of yours?

25             [In English] "Q.  Where did he come from, as far as you

Page 9251

 1     understand it?

 2             "A.  As far as I could understand, he had arrived from Belgrade.

 3             "Q.  Belgrade is a big place.  What do you do you mean he came

 4     from Belgrade?

 5             "A.  Well, I mean from the MUP of Serbia.

 6             "Q.  From what you observed when he arrived, did he assist with

 7     providing support to the setting up of the police stations?

 8             "A.  Well, he did assist, and he told us what we should do to be

 9     safe, for all the civilians to be safe or, rather, for all the residents

10     of the area to the safe.

11             "Q.  So he moved around the police stations providing that expert

12     advice?

13             "A.  Yes.  He did move around the police stations that had been

14     set up.  He did have experience, and he was in a position to assist us.

15     He was in a position to tell us what to do and how to best go about our

16     business.

17             "Q.  Putting aside -- and I'll come to this later, but putting

18     aside his, from what you've described, somewhat overbearing attitude

19     towards you and others, was he engaged in providing security to civilians

20     in the SBWS region in the month after he arrived?

21             "A.  By providing us with instructions and advice and so on and

22     so forth, one could notice that he wanted to avoid problems in the

23     liberated areas where the police stations had already been set up.  He

24     wanted things to be done in accordance with the law, in accordance to how

25     he saw things should be done."

Page 9252

 1             [Interpretation] Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I will read out to you another much smaller passage.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 6041.

 5        Q.   You are again questioned by the Defence counsel of

 6     Jovica Stanisic.

 7             "Could we turn now, please, to paragraph 26 of this statement.

 8     Page 6 of the English, and 6 of the B/C/S.

 9             "Q.  'I met Jovica Stanisic several times.  I had no personal

10     contact with him.  He never told me anything about what his role was.'

11             "Is it right that you did not during these events speak to

12     Mr. Stanisic?

13             "A.  I don't recall speaking with him.  I don't recall any

14     conversations with him.  I don't think there were any.

15             "Q.  And he never told you anything about what his role was and

16     is it correct that no one else told you what his role was either?

17             "A.  At some point in time, Goran told me that Jovica was from

18     the state security but nothing other than that.  He didn't specify

19     whether he was a chief.  He just said that he was from the DB and that

20     was it.

21             "Q.  And from that you understood what?

22             "A.  Well, we met other people at the time as well.  We wanted to

23     meet anyone who could assist us, provide advice or instructions about

24     what to do.  We wanted to meet people who could provide us with what we

25     needed the most at the time, be it financially or in other ways.  In any

Page 9253

 1     case, that was the reason why we met with people from Serbia.

 2             "Q.  But you knew Stanisic -- let me start that again.  Hadzic

 3     told you Stanisic was from the DB, but through these events, as you told

 4     us yesterday, you had no idea what role the DB played, if any, in the

 5     SBWS in 1991 and 1992; is that correct?

 6             "A.  Yes, it is.

 7             "Q.  Looking at this paragraph again, the paragraph says:

 8             "'If he had to talk to anyone, he spoke to Goran Hadzic.  I met

 9     him in Backa Palanka and in Novi Sad.  I went to these places to meet

10     Goran Hadzic but those were not official meetings with Stanisic.  He just

11     happened to be there.

12             "Now, how do you know that if Stanisic had to talk to anyone, he

13     spoke to Goran Hadzic?  Did that come from Hadzic?

14             "A.  Yes, it did.

15             "Q.  So Goran Hadzic mentioned to you that, for example, he had

16     gone to Belgrade and met with Stanisic, is that what he was saying at the

17     time?

18             "A.  He didn't say that only to me, he shared it with other

19     members of the government as well.

20             "Q.  But from what you told us, at no time did Hadzic inform you

21     what Stanisic had said or what Stanisic had instructed or anything like

22     that?

23             "A.  He didn't specify any instructions.  He only said that he

24     had met with Stanisic and that they had spoken.  He would then convey

25     specific instructions about how to go about solving our problems the way

Page 9254

 1     that would be favorable for us.

 2             "Q.  But wasn't Hadzic saying that those instructions were coming

 3     from Milosevic?

 4             "A.  Well, yes, for the most part he would say he had been to see

 5     Milosevic and that he had arranged with him what needs to be done and

 6     what would be the best course to take for us.  It happened frequently

 7     that he said he had seen Milosevic and received instructions from him.

 8             "Mr. Jordash:  Could I just take instructions, Your Honour?

 9             "Judge Orie:  Please do.

10             "Mr. Jordash:  Thank you.

11             "Q.  Sorry for the delay.  Mr. Bogunovic, just to pick up where

12     we left off, is it right -- well, let me ask you in a more open way.  Can

13     you recall any instruction whatsoever from either Stanisic or anyone from

14     the Serbian DB in relation to your work within the SBWS?

15             "A.  I cannot recall any instructions from Stanisic since I

16     didn't know who the man was.  I was introduced to him by Badza with whom

17     I had more frequent contacts, but before meeting him in Backa Palanka and

18     [Realtime transcript read in error "in"] Novi Sad, I had not met him

19     before.

20             "Q.  Just so that you understand our position, Mr. Bogunovic,

21     Mr. Stanisic had no recollection of meeting you in Backa Palanka.  Are

22     you sure that your recollection is correct?

23             "A.  I recall having met him at Ljubo Novakovic's place in

24     Backa Palanka.  I don't know how long the meeting lasted, but I do recall

25     that particular encounter.  I remember him being there.

Page 9255

 1             "Q.  Okay.  But in any event, whoever's recollection is correct,

 2     from what you recall, Stanisic didn't say anything but simply sat and

 3     took notes?

 4             "A.  Yes.  I don't remember him saying anything.  There were

 5     several of us there and the municipal president of Backa Palanka spoke

 6     the most, as well as some people from Novi Sad, but I didn't hear

 7     Jovica Stanisic utter a single word.

 8             "Q.  The meeting that you recall was focused on and concerned

 9     with the plight of refugees in the Backa Palanka region; is that correct?

10             "A.  Yes, it is.

11             "Q.  It's correct, isn't it, that you never saw Stanisic in the

12     SBWS region in November of 1991?

13             "A.  Yes, it is correct.

14             "Q.  And you never heard that he had attended a meeting in

15     November of 1991 involving members of the SBWS government?

16             "A.  Yes, I don't recall that.

17             "Q.  And you were never told that Stanisic attended prior to the

18     fall of Vukovar and screamed and shouted at members of the SBWS

19     government, berating them for failing to take Vukovar?  You never heard

20     about that; am I right?

21             "A.  No, I didn't hear that."

22             [Interpretation] Do you remember this?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's it.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.


Page 9256

 1             Mr. Bogunovic, thank you for assisting the Tribunal with your

 2     testimony.  You are now released as a witness.  We wish you a safe

 3     journey back home.  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, may I be excused?

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  Thank you very much.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Biersay.

10             MS. BIERSAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I wanted just to refer to

11     page 56 of the transcript today, lines 4 to 5.  I think it said

12     "Backa Palanka in Novi Sad," and the transcript as I was reading actually

13     said "Backa Palanka and Novi Sad," so just to put that on the record.

14             And finally, this is to confirm that the Prosecution is tendering

15     the 92 package of Mr. Bogunovic of which there are only two remaining

16     exhibits that haven't been admitted yet, but just for clarification.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 1180 shall become

19     Exhibit P3205.3204.  And 65 ter 6066 will become Exhibit P3206.3204.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

22             Mr. Stringer.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President, and Your Honours, just to say

24     that with this conclusion of this witness's evidence today, the

25     Prosecution now rests its case.  Thank you.

Page 9257

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             If there is nothing else, court adjourned.

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.43 p.m.