Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9855

 1                           Wednesday, 16 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 10.31 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case

16     Manager, Indah Susanti; and legal interns, Katherine Davis; Max Dalton.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell,

21     Negosava Smiljanic, and Milan Jovancevic.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Before we proceed with Mr. Hadzic's testimony, there is the

24     little issue about lifting the private session designation in the

25     transcript not from yesterday but from the day before.  I understand that


Page 9856

 1     parties agree upon three of the suggestions Mr. Stringer made.  And for

 2     the fourth, Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a position?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  We have the position.  Our

 4     position is that this part of transcript should be keep in -- in the --

 5     in the private session.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We will check that.  And, in the meantime,

 7     if parties could provide the Registrar with the exact reference in the

 8     French transcript, please.  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Zivanovic, you may proceed.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, in 1992, was Zeljko Raznjatovic,

15     Arkan, part of your core of body-guards or your security detail?

16        A.   No.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P1845.  It is tab 1282.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] These are conclusions of the Presidency of the

19     SFRY.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

21        Q.   You see the session was held on 16 April, 1992.

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I see that it is strictly confidential.  I

24     don't know whether it should be -- it -- maybe it should not be

25     broadcasted.

Page 9857

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated]

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry.  It's a public exhibit, Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.  In that case, it could be broadcasted, of

 5     course.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You see, Mr. Hadzic, this session discussed various matters, but

 9     I should like you to focus on a passage where you are mentioned in the

10     same context as Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In e-court, it's page 65 in the

12     original and 68 in English.  In fact, it's page 63 of the record itself.

13     In e-court, it's 65.

14             Can we turn back two pages just to see who is speaking here.

15     That means page 63 of the original and page 66 of the translation.  Yes.

16        Q.   These are the words of General Zivota Panic at this session of

17     the Presidency.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now we can go back to pages

19     65 and 68 in Serbian and in English respectively.

20        Q.   He says, among other things:

21             "Arkan is managed about Hadzic, or led by Hadzic.  I was in Knin

22     yesterday and they were all wondering, in one way or another, what Arkan

23     was doing in the area.  He is taking him around as some sort of

24     body-guard.  Somebody should call President Hadzic to tell him to remove

25     Arkan from this area."

Page 9858

 1             Considering that he is referred to here as a member of your corps

 2     of body-guards, I'd like to know did anyone call you in 1992 to ask you

 3     to remove from your area Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?

 4        A.   No.  And this is the first time I see this.  I mean, I saw it for

 5     the first time after I came here.

 6        Q.   It follows from this that, at that time, Zeljko Raznjatovic,

 7     Arkan, was in Knin, and it was a problem that he was there.  I'd like to

 8     know where you were generally in that period.  I'm not asking about a

 9     specific date.  Where did you spend most of your time in April 1992?

10        A.   I was, for the most part, in Eastern Slavonia, where I was born,

11     or in Serbia, where my family was.  And in April, I even travelled to

12     Russia to take my son to a doctor.  I didn't go frequently to Knin.

13        Q.   Considering that he's referred to here as a member of your

14     body-guard detail, did he follow you?  Did he accompany you when you went

15     to -- from Knin to Novi Sad, or -- did he travel around with you?

16        A.   He was never a member of my body-guard detail.  And he didn't

17     travel around with me.  He always went where he pleased.  I was never

18     informed what he was doing or where he was going.

19        Q.   Generally, at this time, when you were either president of the

20     government of -- or, rather, prime minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and

21     Western Srem or the president of RSK, did you have any capacity to issue

22     him orders, to arrest him, to remove him?

23        A.   I certainly didn't.  Moreover, I had the feeling that it could be

24     the contrary, the other way around, as far as arrest is concerned.

25        Q.   What do you mean, "the other way around"?  Could you be more

Page 9859

 1     precise.

 2        A.   I couldn't have him arrested because I did not have much

 3     personnel.  His personnel was ten times larger than mine.  He was

 4     stronger than I.  That's why I thought he could arrest me, rather than I

 5     him.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move to page 67 of the original and the

 7     page 70 in English.

 8             Maybe we should go one extra -- before that it is page 66 and --

 9     in B/C/S and 69 in English just to see who spoke.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Now Borisav Jovic took the floor.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now we can go back to page 67 in

12     B/C/S and 70 in English.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] He says -- no, that's not a starting point --

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.  It is -- Borisav Jovic is on the next

15     page of English translation.  No, no.  No.  That's correct page, sorry.

16     It was correct page.  Sorry.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] It says:

18             "As far as these Eagles and Arkan are concerned, I think the army

19     should arrest them pursuant to our instructions."

20             To the best of your knowledge, was the army able to do that on

21     the instructions of the Presidency of the SFRY?

22        A.   The Presidency was the Supreme Command of the

23     Yugoslav People's Army, and if they had issued such an order, I believe

24     they would have been able to carry it out.

25        Q.   Then Zivota Panic speaks and says:

Page 9860

 1             "No.  The MUP, it's Ministry of Interior, should do that."

 2             And then Borisav Jovic speaks again and says:

 3             "No.  That's not a starting point for us."

 4             And then he explains why.

 5             In your estimate, was the Ministry of the Interior able to

 6     achieve that?  I suppose they meant the MUP of Yugoslavia or Serbia.

 7        A.   I believe the MUP could have done it, as well as the army.

 8        Q.   Then Borisav Jovic speaks again.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  If we can move to the next page in English.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] It's at the bottom of the page, the last

11     paragraph in English.  He says:

12             "So if the army can take up this task, I would gladly give them

13     this task, and if they catch them in the act, they should dismiss them

14     and arrest them."

15             Correction, "... they should disarm and arrest them."

16             Then let's move to the next page in the original and in English.

17             Zivota Panic replies:

18             "There is no task that the army cannot execute, as long as the

19     Supreme Command orders it.  If the Supreme Command orders us to move out

20     of Bosnia tomorrow, we will do it very simply, et cetera."

21             Tell me, in April 1992, when this session of the Presidency took

22     place, were the authorities of the SFRY capable of carrying out such an

23     operation outside of Serbia, let's say, in the Republic of

24     Serbian Krajina?

25        A.   Yes.  Because, officially, it was still a single state of

Page 9861

 1     Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   And then Zivota Panic speaks again and he says:

 3             "I consider it an order:  We will arrest all paramilitary

 4     organisations appearing in this area."

 5             According to your knowledge, was this order implemented?

 6        A.   No, it wasn't, and I never heard that.  No one spoke about this.

 7     This information never reached me.

 8        Q.   Immediately after that, Jugoslav Kostic says:

 9             "Zivota, at a session here once I asked what was the relationship

10     between Arkan and the JNA and you personally told me that it was good."

11             Can you tell us who was Jugoslav Kostic at that time?

12        A.   Jugoslav Kostic was a member of the Presidency of the SFRY on

13     behalf of the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina, so he was on equal

14     footing with Borisav Jovic and everyone else.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move to the next page of translation,

16     please.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] In the further text, Zivota Panic says the

18     following:

19             "Arkan carried out tasks very well in this area.  At one point he

20     broke away but they brought him back, et cetera.  However, he is doing

21     Yugoslavia a disservice."

22             And can we move to the following page of the original, please:

23             "He should be called and given a task.  Those who sent him there

24     should call him.  I don't know who sent him.  However, Arkan happened to

25     be in Bijeljina, in Zvornik, around Sarajevo, and Knin, and so on.

Page 9862

 1     Someone is leading him and giving him tasks.  We should see who is doing

 2     this.  It is certain that we are not giving him any tasks.  However,

 3     there is a difference between Arkan and Jovic.  Jovic's men should be

 4     arrested immediately.  They are mostly the worst kind.  They were sort of

 5     criminals."

 6             Can you tell us which Jovic is referred to here?

 7        A.   I suppose that it's Mirko Jovic from Pazova.

 8        Q.   General Panic then continued by saying:

 9             "Arkan is very disciplined when he performs tasks.  However, his

10     patrons should be the ones to call him.  I will complete my task

11     honourably because this is in the interests of Serbia and the new

12     Yugoslavia."

13             From what you know, did Arkan carry out the tasks he was given by

14     the army?

15        A.   I think he did, even though I have no direct knowledge.  I did

16     not take part in their agreements.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I have the technical problems.  My screen

18     is black.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We're waiting for a technician to come,

23     Mr. Zivanovic.  Perhaps it's a good idea to close your microphone in the

24     meantime.

25             Is it okay now, Mr. Zivanovic?

Page 9863

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No?  Okay.  We had the same problem, but here

 3     it's solved.

 4             Back in business, Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, that's okay.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Judging by what you could observe about the relations between

 9     Arkan and the officers, especially the high-ranking officers of the

10     former JNA, could you tell us if this accurately reflects the situation;

11     namely, that he was disciplined when executing tasks and that he was on

12     good terms with the JNA?

13        A.   Well, I understood that he was a part of the JNA and that he did

14     carry out tasks he got from them.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P2715.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  Tab number 742.  However, it is -- we put

18     on our list as 1D328.  And, meanwhile, we established that it was already

19     admitted into evidence.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, I think that you have already had an

21     opportunity to see this document.  It is an interview of General Panic

22     given to the media in 1994.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move to page 32, English translation.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We'll return to this document

Page 9864

 1     later because the page numbers that I have are not correct.

 2             [In English] May we see, please, P2649.  It is tab 599.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, can you see that this is a document

 4     issued from the General Staff of the SFRY armed forces on the

 5     12th of March, 1992.  It has to do with the work of the staffs and units

 6     of the TO units in the course of mobilisation and demobilisation.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   As you were the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina at

 9     the time and, as we saw yesterday, you had certain duties with regard to

10     the army or, rather, the Territorial Defence at the time.  I'd like to

11     know whether you received this document.

12        A.   No, I didn't, nor was I familiar with it.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now move to P2650,

14     please.  It's tab 1298.

15        Q.   This is a document from the Federal Secretariat of

16     National Defence and it deals with the establishing of the forming of

17     rear bases of TO in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

18             Now, as you were discharging the duty as the president of the

19     Republic of Serbian Krajina at the time, I wanted to ask you whether you

20     knew about the forming of these TO rear bases in the Republic of Serbian

21     Krajina.  Were you informed about that?

22        A.   No, I didn't know about it, nor was I informed.

23        Q.   The names of five military personnel are listed here, of which

24     two, I think, are from the Federal Secretariat of National Defence -- or,

25     rather, three of them, or even four.  Could you tell me whether you knew

Page 9865

 1     anyone of them?  Did you have a chance to see them?

 2        A.   I didn't know them.  I never saw them.  And this is the first

 3     time I hear these names.

 4        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, could you tell us whether, during 1991 or 1992 while

 5     you were the prime minister of the Serbian area of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 6     Western Srem, was there a security service within your government or one

 7     of its ministries?

 8        A.   No.  While the government of SAO SBWS had its term in office, it

 9     did not.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P1834.  It is tab 418.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you repeat the document number

12     Mr. Zivanovic, please.  It's not on the record.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  It is P1834, tab 418.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   This is a report dated 5th March 1992 and relates to January and

17     February that year.

18             First of all, are you familiar with this document?  Were you

19     aware of it while you were prime minister of the Serbian district; and,

20     if so, when did you see it for the first time?

21        A.   No, I was not aware of it.  I saw it for the first time here.

22        Q.   Can you infer from this report, although it's not written in so

23     many words, to whom it was sent.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Objection.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

Page 9866

 1             MR. STRINGER:  He's asking the witness to simply speculate here.

 2     I think if the witness doesn't know anything about the report, it's just

 3     asking for speculation.  It's not helpful.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is not speculation because it is -- he could

 5     conclude from the text of this document if he knows the organ or where

 6     this document was sent.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It would still be guessing, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It says here that in the beginning of that year - that is to say,

11     1992 we don't have a date - the Ministry of Interior of Slavonia,

12     Baranja, and Western Srem established a State Security Service based in

13     Vukovar with a temporary base in Dalj.

14             Tell me, who controlled the Ministry of Interior of Slavonia,

15     Baranja, and Western Srem in 1992?

16        A.   Formally the minister was Predrag Radlovic at the suggestion of

17     Badza, but it was actually controlled by Badza and his men who had, by

18     that time, arrived.

19        Q.   Did the Ministry of the Interior or anyone else inform the

20     government that the State Security Service had been established?

21        A.   Nobody did.

22        Q.   In paragraph 3, we read that this department operated for a short

23     time within the SUP of Vukovar but then it was decided after joint

24     consultations that the service was not fully operative in that form and

25     the Ministry of the Interior decided that the State Security Service

Page 9867

 1     should continue to work independently with the proviso that co-operation

 2     with the SJB - that is to say, the public security service - be promoted

 3     to the maximum.

 4             It says here that after joint consultation, a joint estimate was

 5     made.  Whose joint estimate was it?

 6        A.   I don't know who made that estimate jointly.

 7        Q.   It goes on to say afterwards, taking upon themselves full

 8     responsibility for possible consequences that could ensue from such work

 9     and operation, the employees of the department, with the approval of the

10     MUP, organised themselves and used the working potential and experience

11     to formulate thrusts of their work.

12             Was there any such self-organisation, to the best of your

13     knowledge, of the employees of that department?

14        A.   I don't know that.  And from my very modest knowledge about these

15     things, it sounds illogical to me.  I would have understood it if they

16     had organised themselves in the area of public security to preserve law

17     and order, prevent robberies, et cetera.  But I don't know how the state

18     security can organise themselves, the interests of which state would they

19     be protecting and what positions would they have defended, I really can't

20     understand.

21        Q.   On the next page of this document, reference is made to thrusts

22     of activity or operation.  And, among other things, it says that they had

23     established a series of contacts with Town Commands, with

24     Territorial Defence Staffs, with the public security service, the court,

25     the prosecutor's office, and the security service of the JNA.

Page 9868

 1             Were you aware of the contacts that this service had?  Did any of

 2     the persons in Town Commands, the TO, or the other services mentioned

 3     here, ever tell that you that they had contacts with this service?

 4        A.   Nobody told me.  To be honest, I had no particular contact with

 5     all the people you enumerated.

 6        Q.   On page 3, we read, among other things as follows:  Based on the

 7     information jointly collected so far, a register of pursuits has been

 8     made, copied, and made available to all organisational units.

 9             Do you know about this register?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And can you tell me what kind of organisational units are

12     mentioned here?  Because this department had eight employees, including

13     only five operatives, as we see in paragraph 2 on page 1.

14        A.   I know nothing about this.  My inference is that they wanted to

15     introduce themselves to somebody, but not to me and not the government.

16     I think they may have tried to present their credentials to the MUP in

17     Knin, to the MUP of the RSK in Knin.  That document was written when the

18     Republic of Serbian Krajina had already been established in March.

19        Q.   On -- at the end of page 3, straddling page 4, there is talk

20     about a certain co-operation with the security service of the JNA.  It

21     says that this security service offered them some rolling stock, proper

22     equipment.  And, on the next page, it says that these organs had duly

23     informed the Secretariat for National Defence.

24             Did you know anything about this?  Did the security service of

25     the JNA or somebody from the JNA or the National Defence Secretariat

Page 9869

 1     inform you of any -- of this?

 2        A.   I know nothing about this, and they were not required to keep me

 3     informed.  It was still part of the SFRY territory, and they had agencies

 4     there still that were independent of the government of Slavonia, Baranja,

 5     and Western Srem.  It was all within the area covered by the JNA, and now

 6     I see it was also agreed with the security service of the JNA.

 7        Q.   On the next page, page number 5, in the middle of the page, we

 8     read the following:

 9             "Namely, at this time of disrupted values and general mistrust

10     and aware of the advantages they have and without trusting the public

11     security service or the State Security Service, the

12     State Security Service established security services like the Serbian

13     National Security and the security services in the TO Staffs.

14     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's, unit is also used for this purpose."

15             Could you comment on this passage.

16        A.   As for the Serbian National Security, I've already explained.  It

17     didn't exist.  It was just misinformation spread among the people.

18             As for the security services of TO Staffs and that

19     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was used for these purposes, I hear of this

20     for the first time now.  I don't think it's true, but I don't know

21     anything about it.

22        Q.   Further below, it says:

23             "Here we primarily mean the illegal creation of positions within

24     the public security service by the Serbian National Security which has

25     been proven without a doubt."

Page 9870

 1             Do you know anything about this?  Any of these people who guarded

 2     the government building, did they have any positions in the public

 3     security service?

 4        A.   I didn't know these men until they started guarding the

 5     government.  But from what I know, none of them were former policemen or

 6     had ever worked for the police force or had any connection to the police,

 7     but I cannot be sure.

 8        Q.   Below, we read that dissatisfaction culminated when it became

 9     known that the session of the Assembly of Krajina on the

10     25th of February, 1992, was guarded by the Serbian National Security and

11     the unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

12             You were at that assembly session.  Do you know who organised the

13     security detail and who was on that security detail, if you know?

14        A.   The main security was organised by the Yugoslav People's Army, as

15     there were guests from the federal state present.  Whenever they came,

16     since the time of Borovo Selo in 1991 and then in 1992, it was always the

17     JNA that did it independently.

18             As for those that he calls the Serbian National Security, there

19     were a couple of them there, but they brought some ministers and they

20     came as the escorts.  So, in total, perhaps ten of them may have been

21     there, and five may have stayed on in Erdut to watch over the empty

22     building, so maybe there were three, or four or five.  Arkan was doing it

23     as part of the JNA but he wasn't present inside.  As far as I remember,

24     he didn't attend the session.  It is possible that his men provided

25     security in the street, together with the JNA.  But I didn't know the

Page 9871

 1     protocol.  The main part of it was defined in co-operation with the

 2     federal government which provided some resources and technical

 3     assistance.  We were still a part of the federal state at the time.  So

 4     administration documents, photocopying machines, that was all provided by

 5     the federal institutions which I only accidentally heard.  I didn't think

 6     that somebody from the federal protocol had been there and assisted with

 7     organising it, but that was done independently from me, without

 8     consulting me at any point.

 9        Q.   Could you just repeat about this last issue you told us about.

10     Who came to organise all this?

11        A.   I know that some people from the federal protocol of the federal

12     state in Belgrade helped Ilija Koncarevic to organise it all.  I met a

13     man.  They introduced him to me.  I knew his name, but I can't remember

14     it at the moment.  I remember now.  His last name was Simendic [phoen].

15     I think it was Bogdan Simendic.  There were some others whose names I

16     didn't know, but they were, I think, employees of the federal Executive

17     Council.

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, could you tell us as there is a signature, or,

19     rather, just a typed name at the end of the document of the chief of the

20     SDB department, Slobodan Pezikovic [phoen], so it's not handwritten.  But

21     do you know who this person is; and, if so, can you give us some more

22     details about him?

23        A.   I know who that is.  I didn't know him personally at the time.

24     He was employed by the Croatian State Security Service.  I think that he

25     was working in Osijek before the war.  As I was on good terms with this

Page 9872

 1     service in Vinkovci, I had heard his name but I had never met him.  I

 2     only met him later.  The government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

 3     later appointed him as the chief of the RDB of all of Krajina.  But it

 4     may have been later, perhaps in 1993, though I don't remember exactly

 5     when.

 6        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, yesterday you talked about the action on the Miljevic

 7     plateau.  I would now show you -- we won't play the video that was shown

 8     on TV, but we'll just look at the surrogate sheet.  It's 1D467, tab 764.

 9             Do you remember the details described herein in this report, with

10     regard to the way this action developed and when the action at the

11     Miljevici plateau took place.  In a word, does this correspond with the

12     information you had about this action.  Is it a true report?

13        A.   Yes.  The date corresponds.  It was the 21st of June, 1992.  Some

14     details are left out, but everything that's unfavourable for the Croatian

15     side, and whatever could be positive, they mention it.  But, more or

16     less, it was so.

17        Q.   Could you tell us what are the details that have been left out

18     and that you believe are also important for this action.

19        A.   I'm not sure how important they are, but I received information

20     that, on the previous day, before the action was launched, some women on

21     the Croatian side brought wine and distributed it to the Serbian fighters

22     so that they got drunk.  But it was a mistake on part of these people to

23     have accepted that and that they were sleeping at the moment when the

24     action began.  I heard it in an informal conversation with some of those

25     who survived.

Page 9873

 1        Q.   Do you remember if there were any casualties, civilians, in

 2     particular, during this Croatian offensive?

 3        A.   Yes, I remember that there were casualties, both civilians and

 4     soldiers.

 5        Q.   What happened with the civilian population which was present in

 6     the area where the Croatian forces carried out these combat operations?

 7        A.   Well, unfortunately, all of those civilians were expelled from

 8     this territory.  Likewise, unfortunately again, no one else seemed to be

 9     interested.

10        Q.   What do you imply by nobody else?  Who do you imply by that?

11        A.   Well, generally the international community.  I wouldn't name

12     anyone in particular.

13        Q.   As, in a way, Yugoslavia guaranteed the Vance Plan to you, did

14     you or the organs of the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina

15     complain to the Yugoslav authorities so that they would take any steps to

16     prevent such attacks?

17        A.   I don't remember any specific steps.  We did everything that we

18     could.  At the time, the so-called Zabljak constitution had already been

19     adopted and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had been established and

20     one could already see that we were completely abandoned in a way.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tendered this document into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D142, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

Page 9874

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You also told us about operations conducted in 1993 around the

 3     Medak pocket.  I would like to show you some documents relating to these

 4     events.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D737.  It is tab 781.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the indictment issued by this Tribunal

 7     against the Croatian General Janko Bobetko.  I would like us to look at

 8     paragraph 28.  It's on page 5.

 9             It reads that during the Medak pocket operation, at least 100

10     Serbs, including 29 local Serb civilians, were unlawfully killed while

11     others sustained serious injuries.  Many of the civilians who were killed

12     and wounded were women and elderly people.  The murder of five Serbian

13     soldiers who had been taken prisoner, or hors de combat, are also

14     mentioned.  Their names are included in the schedule to the indictment,

15     and it's not necessary for us to see that right now.

16             My question is whether these allegations correspond to the

17     information you had about the operation in the Medak pocket.

18        A.   Yes, indeed.

19        Q.   If you could please look at paragraph 29 as well, which reads

20     that:  Approximately 164 homes and 146 [as interpreted] barns and

21     outbuildings were destroyed in the villages within the Medak pocket,

22     mostly by fire and explosives, after the Croatian forces had already

23     taken control of the area.

24             Does that correspond with some of the information you had about

25     the events which took place at the time?

Page 9875

 1        A.   Yes, it does correspond.  I remember that General Novakovic told

 2     me because I was a layman when it came to military issues, so I remember

 3     that.  He said that they had such artillery preparation that they would

 4     hit practically every metre and that was a signal for us that the Croats

 5     were well armed.  They practically plowed all this area with their

 6     artillery.

 7        Q.   Paragraph 30 reads that in the same period property of the Serb

 8     civilians was plundered by the Croatian forces, or by persons in civilian

 9     clothes supervised by the Croatian forces and that these included

10     personal belongings, household goods, building materials, furniture, farm

11     animals, that is to say, livestock, agricultural machinery and other

12     equipment.

13             Does that correspond with the information you had?

14        A.   Yes, I had such information.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

17             MR. STRINGER:  We object to that, Mr. President.  If indictments

18     were admissible to prove the allegations contained inside them, then why

19     have a trial?  Mr. Hadzic was the president of the RSK at the time of the

20     events described.  He's -- says that he knows about these things

21     happening.  It's his belief that these things happened.  The Chamber has

22     that evidence in the form of his testimony.  And so the indictment in a

23     case in which -- never resulted in a trial or a judgement really doesn't

24     have any probative value.  We object to it.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The indictment is a legal act and it would be

Page 9876

 1     adduced into evidence too, and it doesn't prove the guilt of the accused

 2     but just some facts alleged in this indictment.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection -- the objection is sustained.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, could you look at 1D732, tab 594.

 7             It's a report from a meeting in Geneva on the

 8     16th of June, 1993 -- no, it's 14 June, 1993.  Or 16.  I'm slightly

 9     confused by these dates.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Would you scroll down, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I'm a little bit confused with the

12     tab number.  You said 594; right?  And then the document number would --

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I said 5 -- 594 -- 594, yes.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the tab number would be 1D732 on -- the

15     document number.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  It is -- it must be my error.  Sorry.

17     Tab 779.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  779.  That would be better, indeed.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This relates to a meeting scheduled to take place in Geneva on

21     16 June and it provides a certain appraisal.  I'd like to quote to you

22     one passage from paragraph 2.

23             It says:

24             [In English] "One hears a great deal in Knin, at present, of not

25     a square inch of Krajina, et cetera, and of the rejection by one of their

Page 9877

 1     assemblies at Okucani of the 802 draft agreement on 6 April.  All those

 2     associated with the 6 April agreement are held in suspicion by the RSK

 3     military, including President Hadzic, and any mention of Misa Milosevic

 4     provokes nasty and dismissive remarks."

 5             [Interpretation] I'd like to ask you:  Do you remember that

 6     agreement of 6th April that gave rise to such suspicions and your name is

 7     specifically mentioned in the context of these suspicions?

 8        A.   I remember that those talks followed the Croatian operation

 9     Maslenica and they were supposed to diffuse tensions.  I was faced with

10     that kind of problem from the very beginning, from my arrest at Plitvice

11     almost to this day, that somebody is working for the other side,

12     et cetera.  Such comments could often be heard from extremists and that

13     happened again when I advocated the release of the Maslenica bridge which

14     would connect the north of Croatia with the south of Croatia.

15             First of all, it was Babic's followers who attacked me, and there

16     were some people who thought the same within the army.  Yes, I -- I know

17     what this is about.

18        Q.   Would you tell us how these suspicions about you, spread by Babic

19     and his followers, developed later?  Did they diminish, or did they grow?

20        A.   It was not only Babic's followers.  There were also some services

21     in Serbia who spread this, and it escalated with time, sometimes

22     resulting in open clashes.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I think it is time for the break.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

25             We'll take the first break.  Court adjourned.


Page 9878

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  A short oral ruling.

 4             On the 1st of July, the Defence filed a motion to amend its

 5     Rule 65 ter exhibit list.  The Defence indicated that it intended to uses

 6     47 documents included in the motion with Mr. Hadzic during his testimony

 7     and requested that they be dealt with on an expedited basis.

 8             On 3 July, the Chamber gave an oral ruling in which it allowed 14

 9     of the 47 documents to be added to the exhibit list.

10             Included in the remaining 32 documents are -- sorry, included in

11     the remaining 33 documents are 32 documents which were provided to the

12     Defence by Serbia on the 3rd of January, 2014.  At the time of the

13     motion, 25 of these documents had not been translated into English.  The

14     Chamber noted that it would consider the addition of these documents

15     after all the translations had been provided and it had received a full

16     response from the Prosecution.

17             With the exception of one document, Rule 65 ter number 1D01935,

18     the English translation for each of the 32 documents has now been

19     uploaded and released in e-court.  The Prosecution filed a written

20     response to the motion on 15 July, 2014.

21             After considering -- I'm sorry.  After considering the

22     submissions of the parties, the Chamber is satisfied that, taking into

23     account the specific circumstances of this case, good cause has been

24     shown for amending the Defence's exhibit list to include the 31 documents

25     provided by Serbia for which an English translation has been provided.


Page 9879

 1     While the Chamber considers that the Defence has not demonstrated due

 2     diligence in adding the documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list, the

 3     documents are relevant and of sufficient importance to justify addition

 4     at this stage of the trial.  The Chamber is satisfied that the addition

 5     of the documents will not result in undue prejudice to the Prosecution.

 6             The Trial Chamber remains seized of the motion in all other

 7     respects.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, we still have on the screen the

11     document we discussed before the break, and I wanted to ask you this:

12     Since you said this distrust towards you escalated, could you tell us in

13     what way?  What happened?  What was done against you?

14        A.   As I said before, all this lasted a long time, and fear was

15     spread among the people that I might betray the interests of the people

16     of Krajina, that I was close to the Croatian side, and they even went so

17     far to call me a Croatian spy, which, of course, was untrue.  And that

18     caused me great problems, distracting me from dedicating myself to my

19     work and the negotiations.  And whatever my opponents did not like in my

20     work, they would say, That's what Hadzic agreed with Croatia but it's in

21     Croatian interests, not ours.  And the same happened at the signing of

22     the Erdut Agreement, although it was accepted by Babic and by the

23     deputies of the Serbian Radical Party.  Their main argument was that I

24     betrayed the interests of Krajina and violated the constitution because I

25     had agreed to an agreement whereby, in a village in Dalmatia, which the

Page 9880

 1     Croatians, by the way, had occupied in the Maslenica operation and which

 2     should have been returned to us, I had agreed that only five Serb

 3     policemen remain there.

 4             That was a minor point, but they interpreted it by saying, It's

 5     against the constitution.  We should have been able to put there as many

 6     policemen as we want to, which was nonsense because no more than five

 7     policemen were needed there, in the first place.  But,  anyway, it gave

 8     them a reason to attack me and to have the agreement dismissed by the

 9     assembly; whereas, I spent all my time explaining that this agreement was

10     good for us, that it brings peace, and renewed peaceful co-existence with

11     other people.  But it was all in vein.

12        Q.   You just mentioned the Erdut Agreement.  Can you tell us what

13     kind of agreement it was, when was it concluded, and what were its main

14     provisions?

15        A.   If I remember well, it was in the middle of July 1993.  I think

16     it was the 16th of July, but I'm not quite sure.  Our delegation

17     negotiated separately with international negotiators and mediators who

18     then negotiated with the Croatian side and shuttled between us.  So we

19     came to an agreement with a lot of mediation, agreeing ultimately on

20     almost all issues.  Croatia was supposed to finally implement the

21     resolution of the Security Council, I think the number was 802, and

22     return to their positions before the Maslenica operation.  In other

23     words, to go back from the Perusa dam and all the other points it had

24     occupied in operation Maslenica.  That agreement was signed

25     unconditionally by the Croatian side, and President Tudjman authorised

Page 9881

 1     his delegation to sign it.  And on the Serbian side, it was signed by our

 2     foreign minister, Slobodan Jarcevic.  And our signature was conditional

 3     because it had to be ratified by the assembly, since both Jarcevic and I

 4     were elected by the assembly.  I managed to conduct consultations with

 5     deputies to the assembly from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem who

 6     realised that this agreement would bring about peace and they were in

 7     favour of the agreement; whereas, deputies from the Knin area listened to

 8     Babic and  rejected the agreement, and that led to the development that

 9     culminated in 1995.

10        Q.   In the document that is still on the screen, a name is mentioned,

11     Misa Milosevic, at the very beginning.  Could you tell us who was this

12     person and what connections did he have, both with you and with the

13     Republic of Serbian Krajina in general, or SBWS?

14        A.   Dr. Misa Milosevic was and maybe still is - I don't know as I'm

15     not in touch with him anymore - the general secretary of the

16     International Serbian Organisation, which has a seat in Geneva.  He used

17     to know Mr. Babic and the members of their delegation, and I met him at

18     some of the negotiations that we went to in the month of October.

19     Mr. Babic engaged him to represent the interests of the SAO Krajina

20     before our meetings when I still did not know him, and they had known

21     each other from before.

22             In later negotiations, both in Geneva and in New York,

23     Mr. Milosevic was a kind of a technical person for us who was in charge

24     of the protocol and assisted us, and he did a lot for us in that sense,

25     but he did not influence the policy of the government or the president.

Page 9882

 1        Q.   Can you please just repeat his function and the organisation that

 2     he belonged to.

 3        A.   He was the secretary-general of the World Serbian Community

 4     seated in Geneva.  It was an organisation that represented the Serbs from

 5     the diaspora.  This position of secretary-general was a permanent one,

 6     and the president was elected for a specific term, a year or two.  It was

 7     a well known person from Serbia.  At the time when I co-operated with

 8     Mr. Milosevic, the president of this organisation was the Academician,

 9     Antonije Isakovic, the late Antonije Isakovic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now go back to 1D328,

11     tab 742.  It's been admitted as P2715.

12             It's an interview from 1994 which General Zivota Panic gave to

13     the media.  In it, he talked a lot about the war events from 1991, 1992,

14     and 1993.  We'll look at page 26 of the original, which corresponds to

15     page 25 of the English translation.

16        Q.   If you could look at the last sentence at the bottom of the page

17     in B/C/S.  Yes.  If you can look at that, please, where it reads:

18             "They included Arkan's Tigers and Seselj's Chetniks.  They were

19     not big groups, say, in Arkan's case say between 80 and 120 persons and

20     in Seselj's case between 90 and 120 men.  All these formations" --

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please turn to the

22     following page in the original:

23        Q.   "However, all these formations were under my command, where I

24     placed them.  They performed the tasks of the unit to which they were

25     attached.  But the units who wanted to act independently were removed

Page 9883

 1     from that area.  We disarmed them immediately and sent them away."

 2             Please tell me, according to the information you had - if you had

 3     any - whether this corresponds to the situation which existed in SBWS in

 4     1991.

 5        A.   Yes, it does reflect the situation.  When I got here, I received

 6     documents and orders which confirmed that.  There was a direct order

 7     issued by Panic to the effect that everyone who was not a member of the

 8     JNA should be expelled back to Serbia and disarmed, and whoever was not

 9     disarmed meant that they were part of the JNA.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please move to

11     page 36 in B/C/S, which corresponds to page 34 of the English

12     translation.

13        Q.   In this segment of the text, the general -- the journalist asks a

14     question about Arkan's Tigers.  He asked General Panic what the

15     co-operation with them was like.  And General Panic says:

16             "Arkan came to that area before the army was engaged.  I suppose

17     he had some arrangements with the local leaders in the area.  I don't

18     know what kind of arrangements, but he formed his only units which

19     controlled and observed the area around Dalj to the north of Vukovar,

20     just like that."

21             Could you tell me whether according to the information you had

22     this is correct or not.  First of all, that Arkan had come to the area

23     when the JNA was not yet there.

24        A.   No, that's not true.  It seems improbable to me that Zivota Panic

25     didn't have true information.  It seems to me that he wanted to avoid

Page 9884

 1     telling the truth on purpose here.  From what I learned later, Arkan

 2     first came to Tenja.  That was close to Osijek rather than Vukovar.  And

 3     the JNA was already in Tenja at the time.  Because after the

 4     7th of July and the Croatian attack on Tenja, the JNA separated the

 5     warring parties and stayed on in Tenja.  So the JNA had already been

 6     there then just as it had been in Borovo Selo from the

 7     2nd of May onwards.  In the Dalj area, Arkan appeared after the

 8     1st of August, much later than the time when the JNA arrived there, and

 9     it arrived on the 1st of August.

10             So what Panic said is not true.

11        Q.   He further says:

12             "Since we came here, we could see that he had his own units and

13     did his own business," and so on, "I then called the commander from the

14     area.  I ordered that he be summoned, that he should place him under his

15     command and he would then appoint them.  If he didn't want to do it, he

16     would have to leave the area.  He accepted that immediately.  When I did

17     a tour of duty of units north of Vukovar towards Osijek, in some

18     populated places, I could see his units, his troops.  He lined them up

19     immediately and he gave me a report.  It was a brief report."

20             Can you tell me whether this reflected the actual situation on

21     the ground and, in particular, do you know whether General Panic ever

22     came to SBWS or that part of it and did a tour of duty of the units which

23     were deployed so that they were facing Osijek?

24        A.   Yes, this is true what the situation on the ground was like and

25     that Arkan acted in co-ordinated action and was under full control of the

Page 9885

 1     Yugoslav People's Army.  As for General Panic's visit, he didn't inform

 2     me about this, and I didn't know that.  But he didn't inform me at the

 3     time.  I didn't know that, nor did he consider that he ought to report to

 4     me.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, counsel.  I apologise for the

 6     interruption.  Mr. President, I was going to ask whether it might be

 7     necessary to clarify what was said at page 29, line 19.  I don't know

 8     whether the witness misspoke or whether there was an interpretation

 9     issue.

10             He said:

11             "In the Dalj area, Arkan appeared after the 1st of August, much

12     later than the time when the JNA arrived there, and it arrived on the

13     1st of August."

14             And I don't know if that is perhaps something to clarify.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll ask the witness to clarify it.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, can you please clarify.  When did the JNA arrive in

19     Dalj and when did Arkan appear in Dalj, from what you know?

20        A.   The JNA arrived in Dalj on the 1st of August, 1991, which is

21     general knowledge.  And I perhaps made a mistake.  I think

22     mathematically, so I said quite some time after.  I thought it was

23     mathematically clear.  I believe that it was certain that he did not

24     arrive together with the army and especially not before them.  Much later

25     means ten or 15 days at least, perhaps more.  In my view, it is much time

Page 9886

 1     because he didn't come on the 1st of August when the army did arrive.

 2             He may have come in late August and then he stayed on, because he

 3     showed up once in Dalj in mid-August.  But it was only in

 4     mid-September that he settled there.  So that's what I meant.  It wasn't

 5     a matter of years but perhaps weeks or months.

 6        Q.   Can we also clarify another thing, please.  You told us when you

 7     saw him first.  Could you tell us who did he arrive with and when was

 8     that?

 9        A.   That was around mid-August or in the first half of August.  He

10     came together with Badza.  I have already said who was with them, and I

11     later remembered when we discussed the certificates signed by Milanovic

12     when he assigned the TO commander, that Zika Trajkovic was also with them

13     then.  I hadn't known him at the time.  I learned later who he was.  He

14     also held a high position within the police.

15        Q.   In which police force did he occupy a high position, if you know?

16        A.   The MUP of Serbia.

17        Q.   Further below in the document, we see that General Panic saw

18     immediately that the members of his unit were disciplined, well equipped,

19     well trained, and that they "listen only to Arkan."  And he says, "At

20     that time, there were 83 of them.  Later on, the number increased."

21             Now, from what you were able to see there, did you have the same

22     impression in terms of the discipline of that unit and their obedience to

23     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?

24        A.   Yes, that was my conclusion, from my experience.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move on to the next

Page 9887

 1     page.

 2        Q.   We will skip over one bit until the reference to the fact that he

 3     did go into populated areas but only after the army.

 4             It says:

 5             "The army would take it.  Then he would go into that populated

 6     area and because the army is the army, the army goes through, finishes

 7     the business normally, whereas the units which come later, they do the

 8     business in populated areas.  He sometimes played that role, the role of

 9     those other units who are supposed to go into populated areas.  It's

10     certain that they did carry out tasks, everything that the army gave

11     them, until the moment when the army no longer needed them."

12             Do you know how the unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, functioned

13     in that role in those operations with the army?

14        A.   I don't know about these technical matters.  I was never present

15     when they agreed these things, but I understood that they were working

16     together.  I'm not saying this is not true, but it is not the same as my

17     thinking.  If we look at what Panic says, it turns out that Arkan was

18     some sort of logistical unit holding already occupied territory.  My

19     understanding was that his units were going ahead, but I wasn't ever a

20     witness, nor did anyone ever officially tell me this.

21        Q.   At the end of that sentence, it says:

22             "However, Goran Hadzic was the president of that Serbian Krajina.

23     He kept him as his own body-guard."

24             Is this true?

25        A.   I am saying this for at least the third time before this Court:

Page 9888

 1     It's not true.

 2        Q.   Further below, the journalist says that somebody told him that

 3     Arkan was very arrogant in his treatment of lower-ranking officers, and

 4     he asks General Panic:

 5             "Did you ever receive a report about this?  Did you hear these

 6     stories?  And what was it really like?"

 7             And General Panic answers:

 8             "While I was in command and during the Vukovar operation, that

 9     did not happen.  But I heard that in Knin, I believe in the Knin Krajina,

10     now after all these things are over, that there were some differences and

11     clashes."

12             Could you please comment on this, especially in the light of

13     those security reports that were sent precisely to the Command of the

14     1st Military District and specifically General Panic.  Do you know

15     anything about this?

16        A.   I do.  I had occasion to read those reports since I've come here,

17     and it's obvious from them that Panic is not telling the truth.  But I

18     had first-hand information, as I said at the beginning of my testimony.

19     Dragomir Lastavica, who was a reserve captain first class in charge of

20     supplies in Erdut told me that Arkan slapped around this

21     lieutenant-colonel in Erdut and kicked him in the butt.  He was there at

22     the time and he knew that.  Now, I don't know what Zivota Panic heard and

23     from whom, but this incident happened.

24        Q.   In other words, you cannot confirm that those reports from

25     security organs ever reached him.

Page 9889

 1        A.   I suppose they did, but I don't really know.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move to the next page.

 3        Q.   On this page, the journalist asks General Panic if he discussed

 4     these problems with Kadijevic, with Cosic.  And Panic answers that when

 5     he became the chief, the Supreme Defence Council discussed it and he

 6     mentioned Milosevic, the then-president of Yugoslavia Cosic, Bulatovic,

 7     and Adzic saying that this problem was raised.  Out of all these people

 8     who are listed - Kadijevic, Milosevic, Cosic, Bulatovic, Adzic - did any

 9     of them either tell you this directly or let you know about this through

10     some other channels?  Did they in any way give you the information about

11     this problem that exists on the ground that is caused by Arkan and his

12     units, and did they ever ask you to do something about it?

13        A.   No, I never heard anybody discussing it, and I even didn't know

14     about these complaints against Arkan and his actions.

15             I was once confronted with a case that I didn't mention during

16     proofing because I only now remember it.  Arkan caused a problem in a

17     village close to mine, Trpinja.  He started trading in spirits.  And in

18     Trpinja, he barged into a house where people were making rakija.  He

19     overturned their caldron and beat them up.  I heard about this because it

20     is a neighbouring village, and I heard about it in the local cafe.  And

21     at a discussion in Belgrade in President Milosevic's office, we were

22     discussing something related to the UNPROFOR.  I told him about the

23     problem we were facing there, but President Milosevic did not give me a

24     sympathetic ear.  He said he will inquire into it with some people,

25     without naming them, and he said, Well, he has his own members of

Page 9890

 1     parliament, I don't know what to do about him, and I realised he wasn't

 2     going to do anything.  But that's all about -- that's all I know about

 3     these activity, such as they were.

 4        Q.   Could you just clarify this for the record:  What was this about

 5     making rakija, the local brandy, that Arkan didn't like?

 6        A.   Well, almost every household in our parts makes plum brandy.

 7     Plums are left to ripen and then it's all distilled in this caldron.

 8     It's called the Slivovitz, the plum brandy.

 9        Q.   Did these people explain why he did that, or maybe some other

10     people who told you about the incident?  Was there any particular reason

11     why he went into that house and did that?

12        A.   Friends from my own village told me about it.  They heard that

13     Arkan had banned this in our area because he himself had started a

14     business in Erdut, selling the final product, factory-made, not homemade.

15     I didn't get any details, but that's what I understood from those friends

16     who told me.  But I neither dared, nor wanted to, nor intended to discuss

17     it with him.  Instead, I went to the highest possible place.

18        Q.   Can you explain when you met with Milosevic and complained to him

19     about it, what exactly did he mean when he mentioned those members of

20     parliament?

21        A.   Well, I think that I understood him well.  I understood what he

22     meant.  Perhaps I didn't quote him precisely, but now I will.

23             He said, Arkan has five members of parliament, my parliament.  I

24     don't want him to cause problems to my party.  He didn't want to confront

25     him.  That's what I understood.  But I paraphrased it; it's not an exact

Page 9891

 1     quotation.

 2        Q.   Further below in this document, General Panic mentions that

 3     several meetings were held to discuss this in 1992 and in 1993.  He says

 4     Milosevic decided that such groups from Serbia be pulled out from

 5     Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska Krajina.

 6             We have looked only at one meeting, and perhaps there are

 7     documents from other meetings as well, but I'd like to know whether after

 8     16 of April, 1992, or perhaps in 1993, anybody asked you to do something

 9     about Arkan and to have him withdrawn from the Republic of

10     Serbian Krajina?

11        A.   Nobody asked me to do that because every normal person knew it

12     would make absolutely no sense to ask me to do that.  I was not capable

13     of such a thing, and there was no reason to go to me.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we turn the page again in the

15     original.

16        Q.   The journalist asks him to go back to 1990-something and then

17     it's not clear.  He says:

18             "Is it true that the volunteers had either to place themselves

19     under your command or to leave the area? "

20             The journalist says:

21             "You said you ordered it."

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now we need to move to the

23     next page in English.

24        Q.   He says that they were given a choice to join the JNA or to

25     leave.  He said that they were formed at the initiative of some political

Page 9892

 1     groups.  According to your knowledge, was this specific volunteer unit

 2     led by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, formed at the initiative of a political

 3     party or group?

 4        A.   According to what I knew, I can say with full responsibility that

 5     no one from the territory where I was formed them.  So not in Slavonia,

 6     Baranja, or Western Srem, not from any political groups or any other

 7     groups.  And apart from that, whatever I were to say, I would be

 8     speculating.  I don't have any certain information about who formed them,

 9     even though there were rumours that Arkan was a colonel in the federal

10     MUP, but that was just something I heard in the media and elsewhere.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move one page

12     forward in the original text.

13        Q.   The White Eagles and Seselj's Chetniks are also mentioned here.

14     Please tell me, while you were the prime minister of SBWS did you have a

15     chance to see these White Eagles, or Seselj's Chetniks?

16        A.   I didn't have a chance to see them.  From what I knew, they

17     arrived in Slavonia and Baranja as parts of the JNA already.  Whether

18     that was the Serbian TO or the Yugoslav People's Army or, rather, the

19     reservists from Serbia, but they were already uniformed and armed, that

20     is to say uniformed, and then they were distributed arms by the JNA once

21     they arrived.  But that was what I learned indirectly.  The same goes for

22     the White Eagles.  I didn't meet any of them, even though I heard that in

23     my village, Pacetin, there were several of those volunteers but as part

24     of the JNA under Mirko Jovic.  They were his sympathisers.  They were all

25     the JNA.  And they did not stay there long, just a couple of days.  They

Page 9893

 1     were not undisciplined as it's claimed here.  They were completely

 2     normal, and they didn't carry out any negative activities.  That's what I

 3     heard from my neighbours later on.

 4        Q.   General Panic says here that he placed all the volunteer

 5     formations under his control and that it was only this group, the

 6     White Eagles, who had refused that but that then they expelled them.  Do

 7     you know that by any chance?

 8        A.   No, I don't know that.  I don't know under whose control they

 9     were, but I know under whose control they weren't.  They were not under

10     my control, nor did I have anything to do with them.

11        Q.   I would now move to a different topic, Mr. Hadzic.

12             Could you tell us something about the contents -- the contacts

13     you had with regard to exhumations at Ovcara and the talks you had about

14     that.  Can you briefly tell us how, according to your knowledge and

15     recollection, you got involved in the talks that had to do with this?

16        A.   When the talks reached my level, I then realised that I had heard

17     how it all had developed, so I can tell you that.

18        Q.   Please go ahead.

19        A.   The commission - I would call it an international one - those who

20     requested that the possible mass grave be investigated, they contacted

21     the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I was not involved in

22     that, nor did I know about those contacts at the time.  No one informed

23     me.  I later heard that there was not much opposition in Knin but that

24     someone from the government proposed that this should be done

25     reciprocally.  And there may have been some logic to it.  But from the

Page 9894

 1     humanitarian point of view, I wouldn't be in favour of that.  The idea

 2     was that some mass graves where Serbs were should be investigated as

 3     well.  That slowed down the negotiations and arrangements.  Judging by

 4     the information I received later, some structures from the former JNA had

 5     attempted to impede that or slow it down.  When the request reached me, I

 6     accepted, but I have explained and I have said that, as the president, I

 7     had nothing against it but that technically those next to me needed to

 8     give their approval - the government and everyone else - because I

 9     couldn't order them in anything.  And I signed the agreement as soon as

10     the request had reached me.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D469.  It is tab - sorry -

12     765.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] What is provided here is the timeline of events

14     with regard to Ovcara.  We can see here that the first talks on this

15     issue were -- began in March 1993.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

17        Q.   Please tell me whether you knew at the time in March 1993 that

18     the talks had begun.  Did anyone address you at the time in connection

19     with those talks?

20        A.   No.  No one addressed me at the time, not yet, nor did I hear

21     about this from my associates.

22        Q.   It follows from this that Prime Minister Bjegovic verbally

23     confirmed the promises he had given earlier with regard to exhumations at

24     Ovcara but that Mr. Milanovic opposed this.  He set two conditions.  As

25     Mr. Milanovic was from SBWS, from the area, did you have any contacts

Page 9895

 1     with him about this?  Did he tell you anything?  Did he consult you about

 2     the position which he took at the time?

 3        A.   Well, Mr. Milanovic was the assistant minister of defence, and I

 4     didn't have any special contacts with him.  He didn't tell me anything

 5     about that at the time but I see that the date is the month of July when

 6     I was involved about the Erdut Agreement.  I went to Geneva.  I'm not

 7     sure about the exact dates, but I was often in Geneva during 1993.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move one page

 9     forward.

10        Q.   It says here that there was an opposition against -- again in

11     October on part of Milan Milanovic who said that he wasn't aware that the

12     exhumation had been approved by Knin.

13             But before that, let's clarify just one issue.  It says here that

14     he was a colonel.  Is it an error or did he really hold the rank of

15     colonel?

16        A.   As far as I know, he did not have this rank at the time.  But I

17     heard that when he moved to Serbia after reintegration that he was given

18     the rank of colonel.  He was awarded that rank by the Serbian police.  He

19     had close contacts with Badza.

20        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move one page

23     forward again.  On the 20th of October, we can see again that the

24     opposition by Sector East authorities was continued, particularly by

25     Colonel Milanovic.

Page 9896

 1        Q.   Were you aware of this continued resistance coming from his part

 2     at this time?

 3        A.   As far as I remember, no one asked my assistance with regard to

 4     this at the time.  Not yet.  As soon I was involved, I gave my support to

 5     it.  Minister Jarcevic informed me about this and asked me.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move to page 5 of

 7     this document.  Page 5, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please just take into account that

 9     in September 1993 the Medak pocket operation was conducted and we were

10     practically in a state of war, so all the talks and negotiations and

11     everything else was postponed.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   At the top of the page, we can read -- though the

14     Medak [indiscernible] is discussed on the previous page.  But on the

15     following page, the 3rd of November, 1993, reads that the commission has

16     decided to circulate a press release because it did not receive any

17     feedback from Minister Bjegovic after his talks with you.  And

18     Mr. Bjegovic had previously said that he would talk with you because

19     supposedly there was some opposition from the Supreme Defence Council.

20             So what I'd like to know is this:  This issue of exhumation at

21     Ovcara, was it ever raised before the Supreme Defence Council?

22        A.   Never in my presence.  As far as I know, I think that it was not

23     an issue that the Supreme Defence Council was supposed to discuss.  I

24     don't think it would come within military issues.  For me, this was a

25     humanitarian issue, and, of course, a criminal one, if the perpetrators

Page 9897

 1     were known.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 1, it says precisely that the government had given

 3     its authorisation for the exhumation at Ovcara:

 4             "However, the Supreme Defence Council of the RSK had a different

 5     view."

 6             That's the reason why I'm asking you.

 7        A.   I've already replied, that it wasn't so.  There were three

 8     members of the government on the Supreme Defence Council.  They could

 9     have voted differently and made a different decision, outvoted the

10     others, had they wanted to.

11        Q.   Did Mr. Bjegovic ask for your co-operation as indicated here?

12        A.   Which date?

13        Q.   Before the 3rd of November.  The upper part of the text.  Did he

14     ask for your approval?

15        A.   I'm not sure that he put it exactly in those words.  He didn't

16     ask for approval.  When we had these talks, those were just

17     consultations.  He was not asking for my approval.  But I don't think

18     that between 30th October and 3rd November we would have been able to

19     meet and discuss it.  I think it could have been a bit later.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the bottom of this

21     page.

22        Q.   It follows from this that on the 11th of November, 1993, you

23     addressed Mr. Fenrick for the first time.  In fact, Mr. Jarcevic

24     approached him saying that you would like to see him on 16 November in

25     Erdut.

Page 9898

 1             And the text goes on -- on to the following page.

 2             Did you, indeed, let him know through Mr. Jarcevic that you

 3     wanted to see him?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.  It was after my consultations with Bjegovic, which

 5     would have been a day or two before.  It was a delicate matter because it

 6     wasn't very well received by the Serbs who were saying, And where are our

 7     graves?  Who's going to look after them?  So it was a problem.  And

 8     that's why, I suppose, Bjegovic wanted to consult me so that we can take

 9     a unified position, to avoid problems later.  And I accepted it.  I

10     believed the humanitarian aspect is more important than anything else,

11     and the most important thing is to see what actually happened there.

12             I discussed similar issues with the ambassador of the European

13     community, Mr. -- Mr. Ahrens.  He said, Of course, it's not all right

14     that people were killed but we have to find out what happened.  There are

15     wives of these men who still cannot get any benefits or exercise any

16     rights before they get death certificates.  I took it very seriously and,

17     to the best of my ability, I worked for these matters to be settled.  Of

18     course, my ability was not great in this matter because most of these

19     things had happened even before the Republic of Serbian Krajina was

20     established and before I became its president.

21        Q.   Follows a description of that meeting held on 16 of November.  We

22     see that alongside you, there were Mr. Niksic, vice-chairman of the

23     regional council, and Colonel Milanovic.  It then lists your statements.

24             Under (a), you say that the authorities of the

25     Republic of Serbian Krajina agree to co-operate and give their approval

Page 9899

 1     for the excavations on the site of Ovcara; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  Because Bjegovic told me that they agree, and then I was

 3     able to make this statement.

 4        Q.   It goes on to say that the excavation activities would start in

 5     March or April when the weather improves and that you would appoint one

 6     member to observe the activities of the commission.  And also that you

 7     approved all that is stated above and are willing to co-operate fully

 8     with the commission.

 9             Is all of this correct and faithfully reflected?

10        A.   It's all correct, but I have to say at this point that, after

11     that, there were elections where I lost, as everybody knows, and it all

12     could not happen until I became the president of Slavonia, Baranja, after

13     the Operation Storm.  And I appointed a representative to attend the

14     excavations that took place in 1996.

15             So it didn't happen in the spring of 1994 as planned.  But that

16     proposal for spring 1994 came from Mr. Fenrick, who said that it simply

17     couldn't be done in the current weather.  He said, March or April next

18     year.

19        Q.   After this -- after this conversation on the 16 of November,

20     1993, and before 1996, as you explained now, were you ever contacted

21     again on the issue of Ovcara and the excavation of victims?

22        A.   No, I was not.  After I lost the elections, my status was very

23     thankless.  The police seized my car, and I was subjected to harassment.

24        Q.   We'll discuss this a bit later.

25             You know that, among other things, you are charged under this

Page 9900

 1     indictment because the crimes against non-Serbs and other crimes in the

 2     Republic of Serbian Krajina were not adequately prosecuted and you

 3     allegedly did not do enough for perpetrators to be found and tried, so

 4     I'm going to ask you a few questions about that.

 5             First of all, when were courts established in Slavonia, Baranja,

 6     and Western Srem after the beginning of hostilities and after the courts

 7     that existed until 25th June ceased to exist?  When did the courts start

 8     working again?

 9        A.   Although in 1991 there was military rule in the whole territory

10     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, our government started

11     establishing courts towards the end of 1991, and I think they began to

12     operate very soon afterwards; in the beginning of 1992, let's say.  But I

13     had no competencies in the area of the judiciary.  As to your other point

14     that one of the charges against me is that crimes were not prosecuted,

15     that is not true.  I have facts to prove it, and I will do so now.

16        Q.   Did you have any powers to order courts or other judiciary bodies

17     to take a certain action or to make a certain decision?  Were you able to

18     tell them what to decide?

19        A.   I had no such powers, and I didn't interfere with the work of the

20     judiciary at all.  Everybody knows how authority and power are divided in

21     a democracy.  There is the executive, the judicial, and the law-making

22     branch.  I was in the executive branch of authority, and I did not

23     interfere with the work of the judiciary in any way, and I had nothing do

24     with any prosecutions of any general crime or other crimes.

25        Q.   Were you able, did you have legal powers or practical ability to

Page 9901

 1     appoint whom you chose as prosecutors, presidents of courts, et cetera?

 2        A.   No, I did not.  And I never tried to.  We just left in those

 3     positions people who occupied them before the war.  I didn't interfere in

 4     that sphere at all.

 5        Q.   From what you know, were these judges professionally qualified

 6     for their job; namely, the qualifications stipulated by the earlier law

 7     for being appointment [as interpreted] to those positions?

 8        A.   They did.  They were qualified.

 9        Q.   From what you personally know - and we're not going to go into

10     any detail - did the judiciary function at all?  The police, the

11     prosecutor's office, and the courts, did they operate during the

12     existence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?  Were perpetrators of

13     crimes prosecuted?

14        A.   Do you mean 1991 or later?

15        Q.   Well, tell us about both.

16        A.   In 1991, it was military rule, and military security, military

17     prosecutors, and military courts were in charge.  That's at least how I

18     understood it.  Later on, there were courts, and they worked to the best

19     of their ability.

20        Q.   Do you know if these courts and prosecutor's offices prosecuted

21     the Serbs who had committed crimes against Croats and other non-Serbs?

22        A.   They did.  In every case where perpetrators were identified, they

23     were prosecuted.  And investigations continued to be carried out even

24     when perpetrators were not identified.  In some case, we still can't know

25     to this day who committed a particular murder.  And I want to stress


Page 9902

 1     again:  It was a thorn in the side for the policies that I was trying to

 2     carry through.  Attacks against Croats, looting, robberies, murders.  It

 3     was just undermining us politically.  It went completely against all our

 4     political interests.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It is that time.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tomorrow, Mr. Zivanovic, how long will you take?

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Mr. President, I don't know how much time I have.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You have theoretically -- you have five minutes

13     left.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I will need maybe one to two hours more.  I

15     would -- I will do my best to finish by the first break.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll try to do that.

19             Mr. Hadzic, you're still a witness under oath.

20             Court adjourned.  We'll see each other at 9.00 tomorrow.

21                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of July,

23                           2014, at 9.00 a.m.