Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10154

 1                           Wednesday, 23 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

10     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

15     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case Manager,

16     Thomas Laugel; legal interns, Lucy Jones, Katherine Davis.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And just before I

24     begin, though, one small, little housekeeping matter.  For the record,

25     what is now in evidence as Exhibit P2310, should be linked to


Page 10155

 1     65 ter number 4774.3.  Currently it is linked to 65 ter 4774.  And so

 2     just to add the .3 to the 65 ter number.  And we've consulted with the

 3     Registrar about that.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, yes, Mr. Registrar.  Thank you.

 6                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Before we continue from yesterday, I'd like to actually go back

12     to a few things that you said today -- or excuse me, yesterday, or

13     previously during the course of your cross-examination.  And the first of

14     these is at page 10071 of the transcript, and I was asking you about the

15     time of the events in late 1991.  I was asking whether you knew, among

16     other things, that Arkan was a criminal.  And you said in answer:

17             "You're asking me if I knew whether he was a criminal, and I told

18     you that I didn't know at the time ..."

19             Mr. Hadzic, is it possible that you said something differently to

20     Vladimir Dzuro during the course of your suspect interview and at that

21     time you said that you actually knew that he was wanted by Interpol and

22     was a criminal?

23        A.   I don't know what period I discussed with Mr. Dzuro and what you

24     had in mind.  I told you that when I first met him, I didn't know that he

25     was a criminal.  I didn't know anything about him.  And since in the

Page 10156

 1     country where I resided, there were no criminal reports against him, he

 2     had never been arrested, for me it was enough, I did not have any

 3     possibility to run a check on him.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1084.  This is

 5     65 ter 04974.03K.  And this is English page 25 -- sorry, 32 of the

 6     English, 25 of the B/C/S and we'll just play this short video-clip when

 7     the interpreters tell us that they've got it.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  We are ready.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.

10        Q.   And, Mr. Hadzic, if you're not able to hear it, let us know and

11     we'll stop and start again.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Arkan went into -- launched

14     military operations in a disciplined manner, regardless of what you say

15     and which is true that he was wanted by Interpol, that he was a criminal,

16     and that a warrant for his arrest had been issued."

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   So you knew, Mr. Hadzic, at the time he was involved in military

19     operations, despite your opinion that he operating or acting in a

20     disciplined manner, you did know at the time, at that time in 1991 and

21     during the conflict, that he was a wanted criminal by Interpol.  True?

22        A.   Obviously that's not the case.  This is a play on words, it

23     seems.  When Mr. Dzuro asked me, I knew then.  When he first arrived with

24     the Serbian police as a member of the Serbian state, i.e., a member of

25     the federal state, I could not vet him.  Later on, I heard rumours that

Page 10157

 1     he was wanted by the Interpol.  I don't know whether Serbia had to comply

 2     with the Interpol's demands and why he wasn't arrested by the authorities

 3     of the state where he resided.

 4        Q.   Another item from yesterday, Mr. Hadzic, going now to page 10116

 5     of the transcript, I was asking you about the appointment of Mr. Petrovic

 6     to be the minister of information for your government.  I said --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Stringer, could you give us a moment, please.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Stringer, if you're moving on to another line of

10     questions this -- the last exchange between yourself and the witness,

11     what -- I'm not sure about and perhaps either the answer or the question

12    was -- well, certainly the -- the -- what I'm left with is not very clear.

13             But, Mr. Hadzic, do I understand your testimony to be that back

14     in 1991 you didn't know that Arkan was wanted by Interpol, et cetera,

15     however, at the time of the interview with Mr. Dzuro, you did know?

16             My question is:  When did you learn that Arkan was a criminal,

17     that he was wanted by Interpol?

18     A.   You understood this first part well.  In 2002, I told Mr. Dzuro that

19     I'd -- I knew that when I was talking to him.  As for the precise time

20    when I learned that, I can't remember exactly when that was, but certainly

21   around the time when Arkan became a well known media personality, when they

22   talked about him, when foreign journalists came, even an Australian MP came

23   to visit him as well, and there was -- a lot of controversy surrounded him.

24       They said he was a colonel of the SFRY State Security, that he was a

25   criminal, somebody whose job was to kill all over Europe.  That's what I

Page 10158

 1     heard.   And it was only later, perhaps in 95-96 that I heard that he had

 2     also robbed banks, in the Netherlands or Sweden.  I'm not sure where.

 3          After 1991, I heard a lot of controversial stories, but I have never

 4     heard that a final judgement of conviction was passed against him.  I

 5     don't remember learning that, nor did anyone tell me that officially.  I

 6    never received that either from Interpol or any other organisation, or any

 7    police in the world.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9             Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11        Q.   Just to briefly follow up on it, Mr. Hadzic, perhaps I could have

12     done a better job of trying to set the time-frame, because in your

13     response to my question you actually said that:  Later on I heard rumours

14     that he was wanted by Interpol.

15   Can we agree that by the time of his wedding in early 1995, Mr. Raznjatovic

16     was a well-known figure in the media, and certainly by the time of his

17     wedding in 1995 you would have been aware of all of the controversy, if I

18     can put it that way, that swirled around Arkan and his reputation?

19        A.   At that time those stories already existed, and I also heard that

20     Arkan had been arrested in Croatia and released.  And I thought Croatia

21     was a state - now it's even a member of the European Union - if they were

22     serious in this shape, there was a strong indications that he had indeed

23     committed a crime.  Croatia as a signatory of Interpol would have

24     extradited him to the countries that issued a warrant against him.

25        Q.   And in your answer to Judge Hall's question, you made a reference

Page 10159

 1     to the Australian consul who came to visit him.  Are you referring now to

 2     the footage that we looked at when the gentleman from Australia came to

 3     the training centre and then also met with you and Arkan?  We showed you

 4     to that at the beginning of your cross-examination.

 5        A.   I did not say that he was a consul; he was a MP in the Australian

 6     parliament.  He visited Arkan; Arkan was his host.  I received the

 7     gentleman independently of that, and Arkan was his escort during that

 8     visit.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now to move on --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer --

11             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You will have a date for that visit, I suppose.

13             MR. STRINGER:  The visit of the Australian --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes --

15             MR. STRINGER:  Yes.  I -- we have it as January 1992.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I asked you yesterday a question about Mr. Petrovic.

19     I said:

20             "You selected Mr. Petrovic and put him forward to be information

21     minister of your government; isn't that correct?"

22             And you said:

23             "In the formal sense, yes.  But it was not my independent

24     decision.  It was also a result of the proposal of the rest of those who

25     were at the meeting, president of the Assembly, Koncarevic, some others

Page 10160

 1     with whom we'd agreed about.  But the assembly of SBWS was the one that

 2     made its decision on their appointment."

 3             Do you remember that evidence?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   I'm going to suggest to you there, Mr. Hadzic, and maybe it's

 6     something that just needs to be clarified, but one could get the

 7     impression that you were minimising the role that you played and the --

 8     the extent to which you had the ability and the authority to select those

 9     who would be members of your government.  The fact is that you selected

10     those members of the government and 100 per cent, all of the people that

11     you selected, were in fact approved by the assembly.  Isn't that true?

12        A.   In formal term, this is the truth, but in practical terms it is

13     not.  But it is very interesting to hear you say that I tried to minimise

14     my role.  I had an opportunity to say to the Trial Chamber that I cannot

15     minimise it -- to the extent that it was really minimal.  It was ten

16    times less significant than it may seem now, as I am telling you this.  At

17    that time I did not have a telephone.  I didn't have a car.  I didn't have

18    any possibility to contact anybody.  I could only use the courier services

19     or acquaintances in order to send messages to people to come to Dalj

20     because I was waiting for them and then wait to see whether they would

21     turn up or not.  At the time I didn't even have a place where I could

22     eat.  And this is the truth of the matter.

23             Now, whether this was minimum or maximum, I leave it to you to be

24     the judge of that.  But this is how things were.

25        Q.   Well, let's just take a look at what you said about this when

Page 10161

 1     Mr. Dzuro asked you about it in 2002.  That would be tab 1083,

 2     65 ter 04974.02 and the letter N, for Nancy.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Stringer [sic].

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we know why the text on the screen

 5     from the interview of Mr. Hadzic is redacted in some parts?

 6     MR. STRINGER:  The reason for that is that it can take the interpreters

 7     directly to the part that corresponds to the clip.  Now the Defence have

 8     obviously the complete unredacted version. This is done in order to guide

 9     the interpreters.  It's done in other cases as well. This is the practice

10     in other trials.  If they don't like it, we can -- we can change it back.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that these parts could be highlighted and

13     not -- not blacked.  Not in black, because I don't know -- as far as I

14     know it is a public document.  And could be --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah --

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Could be seen on the screen.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I must say, I, for myself, wouldn't think that we

18     get on the screen the document that is -- I mean, the -- the version of

19     the document that is only there for the booth.  So I would indeed prefer

20     to have the real document rather than the document that is there to help

21     the booth with the translation of the video-clip.

22             MR. STRINGER:  We'll make the adjustment, Mr. President.  And, in

23     any event, we're just running the video so we can all hear what is being

24     said.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

Page 10162

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             "Vladimir Dzuro:  Yeah.  If I may return to the government of

 3     Selo, I mean who - you appointed those ministers, who -- did somebody

 4     have to approve it -- the appointment?

 5             "Goran Hadzic: [Interpretation] Yes, the Grand National -- the

 6     Grand People's Assembly -- the Grand National Assembly.

 7             "Vladimir Dzuro:  And did they actually approve those ministers?

 8             "Goran Hadzic: [Interpretation] Yes, it did with 100 per cent

 9     certainty.  I just now cannot remember when this was done.  I believe

10     it's logical that this took place somewhere in September, because later

11     we had regular assembly sessions."

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   And before I come back to you, let's just go ahead also to what

14     you said in the Dokmanovic case.  This is 65 ter 02320.  And this would

15     be for the Registrar, this is not a video-clip.  This is the testimony

16     from --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, do we still have to be in private

18     session?

19             MR. STRINGER:  No, I didn't -- I don't know why we're in private

20     session.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Neither do I.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We are not in private session so we don't

24     take that signal into account.

25             MR. STRINGER:  I see, actually, we do have -- we did manage to

Page 10163

 1     get the video from Mr. Hadzic's testimony in the Dokmanovic case on this

 2     point, and so with the Chamber's permission, we'll run that.  This would

 3     be 65 ter 2320.1.  And this is at pages 3077 to 3078 of the Dokmanovic

 4     transcript.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Q.  How did Mr. Dokmanovic become

 7     to be minister of agriculture?

 8             "A.  Slavko Dokmanovic was a very honourable man, and, as you

 9     know, he was and still is.  He had graduated from the school of

10     agriculture.  He was nearby.  I was able to appoint him.  I appointed him

11     as such and politically, this also strictly corresponded to our

12     requirements because he was a very good political decision.

13             "Q.  Was he easily elected or were there those Serbs who did not

14     want to elect him?

15             "A.  With all the reasonable Serbs, the choice was okay, but

16     there were very few of such people.  Most extremists attacked him, and I

17     had a lot of problems and I had to use all of my authority to have Slavko

18     appointed as minister."

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   So, Mr. Hadzic, what you said there and this was when you were a

21     Defence witness for Mr. Dokmanovic, is that in fact you had authority and

22     you exercised your authority in order to put those people into your

23     government whom you wanted and so it wasn't quite as -- well, you in fact

24     did minimise your evidence on this, and you've continued to do so.  It's

25     basically your decision.  You consulted with others, and the ones you

Page 10164

 1     selected were approved.  Isn't that true?

 2        A.   I believe that we have gone in two completely different

 3     directions with regard to your conclusions and my answers.  Obviously I

 4     didn't understand your question.  When I spoke about my minimum role, I

 5     meant the role of my government and my possibility to work.  When it

 6     comes to the appointment of ministers who played a role, the situation is

 7     very clear.  I told you that I had two basic views:  One was

 8     professional; the other was territorial.  And apart from my proposals

 9     there are also proposals from local communes and professional

10     associations that had a say.  Those are two completely separate things.

11     As for my minimum role and my possibilities to work, that's what I had

12     in mind.  It is absolutely irrelevant how able I was to appoint ministers

13    whose names I personally put forward, such as Slavko Dokmanovic, or some

14     others proposed by the local communes of Borovo Selo or Trpinja.  Those

15     are two different things.  I suppose I didn't understand you well.  My

16     proposal to appoint Dokmanovic was as valid as the proposal that came

17    from a local commune, but we were all obviously talking at cross-purposes.

18        Q.   Interpreters are asking if you could slow down a bit, Mr. Hadzic.

19     Maybe we were not understanding each other.  I'm going to suggest to you

20     that you consulted.  There were criteria for selection.  It's not an

21     unusual thing.  You made the selection and 100 per cent of your

22     selections were approved by the -- [Technical difficulty]

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It will make a minute or two, Mr. Stringer, to

25     solve the problem.

Page 10165

 1             Could the court reporter adjust the last sentence of mine.  It

 2     looks a little bit stupid the way it is now.  It will take a minute or

 3     two, Mr. Stringer, to solve the problem.  Thank you.

 4             I think we are back in business.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is that right?  Yes.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, with the interruption there, let me just try to start

10     again.

11             I'm not asking you about the extent to which you had the

12     supplies, the paper, or the phones, or the cars in order to function as a

13     government.  I'm asking you about the manner in which the ministers were

14     selected and appointed.  And can we agree, sir, that in appointing your

15     minister, you consulted with others - there were criteria - you made the

16     decision, and 100% of the ministers whom you chose were in fact approved

17     by the Great National Assembly?

18        A.   As for the Great National Assembly approving their appointments,

19     that is not in dispute.  I said so to Mr. Dzuro and we all know about it

20    here.  It could not have been any other way. I have explained that as regards

21     the procedural parts I suggested to the national assembly to have those

22    ministers appointed. I have explained the procedure before the appointment

23     as such.  Some people were proposed by Dalj, others from Borovo Selo, and

24     we also got some from Serbia such as the minister for urban planning and

25     construction and the minister of finance.

Page 10166

 1        Q.   I think it's a simple question, Mr. Hadzic.  All of those whom

 2     you proposed were approved.  Yes or no?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is asked an answered.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  I -- I disagree, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may continue, Mr. Stringer.

 6             MR. STRINGER:

 7        Q.   I think it's a simple question, Mr. Hadzic.  All of those whom

 8     you proposed were approved.  Yes or no?

 9        A. It is a very simple question but it contains two parts: In terms of

10     procedure, all of the ministers I proposed were accepted by the assembly;

11     as for the other part, I explained the procedure of nomination and

12     appointment.  It had to come formally from me because I was the prime

13    minister designate. In that sense, your assertion would be fine. But I did

14   explain to you the factual situation of the proposals and the way they were

15   made. So procedurally your logic is correct, but factually it is flawed.

16        Q.   I asked you questions yesterday about the Serbian

17     National Council, and I'm looking now at pages 10084, -85 of the

18     transcript, also 10090.  On 10085, I was suggesting to you that

19     Mr. Petrovic as spokesperson of the SNC was actually articulating what

20     was the platform and the objective of the SNC on establishing a line of

21     separation between Croatian and Serbian people and facilitating

22     population movement.  At the time, we were looking that exhibit, 65 ter

23     1939.4, which you said you didn't know about.

24             And, again, yesterday you said is -- is -- is --

25             "That's not correct.  This is what Ilija Petrovic was talking

Page 10167

 1     about.  I had no idea about it."

 2             Moving down, same page, 10085, line 15, you said that you

 3     reluctantly agreed to attend meetings of the SNC but this was not

 4     something that was ever discussed.  Page 10090, I asked:

 5             "Did the SNC have territorial aspirations?"

 6             You said:

 7             This was never discussed at meetings.  I saw that when I came

 8     here in the book, Petrovic's book, and that was the first time that I

 9     heard the geographic term "Moslavina."  To tell you the truth, I don't

10     even know today exactly what this territory is, Moslavina."

11             You remember that testimony from yesterday, Mr. Hadzic?

12        A.   I do.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 999, which is P1956.

14     This is video footage.  And we'll wait for the interpreters.  We'll start

15     on page 1 of the English.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Also page 1 of the B/C/S.  And we'll let this run

18     for 49 seconds.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor:  Ilija Petrovic, member of

21     the National Council; Ilija Koncarevic, secretary general of the Serbian

22     National Council; Pero Matic, professor from Beli Manastir;

23     Slavko Dokmanovic, chairman of the municipal assembly of Vukovar;

24     Goran Hadzic, chairman of the Municipal Board of the

25     Serbian Democratic Party Vukovar and a member of the Main Board of the

Page 10168

 1     Serbian Democratic Party Knin; and Caslav Ocic from Dalj.  The Serbian

 2     National Council for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was formed this

 3     year in Sidski Banovci on Orthodox Christmas."

 4             MR. STRINGER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, are you able to recognise this at all, this

 6     television programme that you and the others appeared on?  Does this ring

 7     a bell?

 8        A.   I received that CD-ROM with the other material here.  That's when

 9     I saw it.  But, other than that, I don't particularly recall this

10     broadcast.

11        Q.   It refers to the establishment or the formation of the

12     Serbian National Council for SBWS on Orthodox Christmas.  That's

13     consistent with what you've told us already.  True?

14        A.   Yes.  On the 7th of January, 1991.  That is when the Serbian

15     National Council was established.

16        Q.   And here, according to the anchor anyway, at this point

17     Koncarevic and Petrovic are going public with their membership in the

18     SNC.  They were both introduced as members of the SNC.  You were not.

19     That's why I'm making the distinction.

20        A.   It was probably so.  I didn't observe that in the footage, but I

21     wasn't paying attention to it.  In any case, I think that is the case.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. STRINGER:  If we could then move forward to the second clip.

24     Thirty-eight seconds, 37 to -- 38 minutes, 37 seconds, to 40 minutes, 12.

25     This is page 18 of the English translation, pages 16 to 17 of the B/C/S.

Page 10169

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The booth has it.

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor:  Mr. Hadzic, do you believe

 4     that a civilised separation Mr. Ocic was talking about is possible?

 5             "Goran Hadzic:  I'm an optimist by nature and I thought it was

 6     possible, this peaceful co-existence, as they call it.  However, I

 7     categorically think that peaceful co-existence is not possible following

 8     these recent incidents and under these circumstances.  This should be

 9     considered at the level of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, a peaceful

10     separation should be considered.  I am not for bloodshed.  That is the

11     last thing that should happen.  But can you imagine the life of the

12     people in Croatia as described by Dr. Ocic?  For example, after these

13     incidents that were shown on TV, people took to the streets unarmed at

14     night, they were not patrolling.  We were just safe-guarding our houses,

15     or villages.  Police came and the next day there was this policeman who

16     was taking down the names.  He is a Serb.  It is not his fault that he

17     was born a Serb but he does not feel as one.  He was taking down the

18     names of those who walked the street quietly on minus five and did not

19     sleep.  We were very glad he was doing this.  You can imagine our lives.

20     And that is why we decided at the last evening's Municipal Board meeting

21     we will organise a protest rally in Vukovar, in the centre of Vukovar,

22     12.00 Saturday, firstly to support the measures of the Presidency, but it

23     will also be a protest against measures of the YU Presidency not being

24     implemented strongly enough, because the weapons that have been

25     distributed to civilians are not handed over and the army needs to have

Page 10170

 1     control of it.  What good is it to us if it is handed over when it can

 2     soon be given back to the same people who had handed it over."

 3             MR. STRINGER:

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, there's a reference there to a Dr. Ocic.  Could

 5     you tell the Chamber just briefly who that person is.

 6        A.   Dr. Caslav Ocic is a Serb from Dalj.  He hails from Dalj.  He was

 7     a full professor at the school of economics in Belgrade, and, to date, he

 8     is a full member of the Serbian academy of arts and sciences.  In the

 9     SBWS government, he was the minister of foreign affairs.  It is when the

10     government was established a few months after this broadcast.

11        Q.   And in terms of the time of this broadcast, you've referred to

12     organising a rally in Vukovar on this coming Saturday.  That's what you

13     said in this clip we just saw.  Does that help you recall or does that

14     tell you what would be the time-frame in which you were appearing on this

15     television show?

16        A.   I think it is easy to know the date because as for the rally

17     which took place in Vukovar now I heard that it was on Saturday, and you

18     referred previously to a news article.  This broadcast had to do with

19     information we received on Croatia's arming, and I simply expressed a

20     concern harboured by the Serb people following that information.

21        Q.   Would this television broadcast have been taking place in

22     January or February 1991?  It's referring to the establishment of the

23     SNC.  Koncarevic and Petrovic are being identified publicly with it.

24     That suggests that in fact we're talking about January to February, the

25     early part of 1991.  Would you agree with me on that?

Page 10171

 1        A.   We did not see eye to eye on many issues here, but quite

 2     surprisingly, I agree on this one with you.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And we know about the concerns.  We understand the

 4     concerns that you -- and -- you shared with the others concerning the

 5     events in Croatia, the arming of the population that you were aware of.

 6     But what you've said here, as of January or February 1993 -- sorry, 1991,

 7     you've already reached the point or the view that a peaceful co-existence

 8     was no longer possible.  Is that how you saw it as of January, February,

 9     1991?

10        A.   Obviously you were not either listening carefully to what I said

11     or you are distorting facts intentionally.  I said that no co-existence

12     was possible under those conditions, and we asked for the assistance of

13     the Presidency to have the circumstances changed, to have the arms

14     withdrawn.  And given those conditions, I said I was an optimist and in

15     favour of co-existence.  But under the conditions, when 80,000 automatic

16     rifles have been distributed to our neighbours, consider it yourself and

17     tell us whether co-existence is possible.  If a party distributes

18     thousands of rifles to members of a single ethnic group, well, what then?

19        Q.   And just to be clear, the --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Stringer -- sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I noticed that Mr. Hadzic mentioned two

22     times "80.000" of rifles.  In line 24, it was said "70.000."  And in the

23     line -- line 25, just "thousands."

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, could you confirm that with

25     Mr. Hadzic.

Page 10172

 1             MR. STRINGER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you've heard the exchange.  Could you say again how

 3     many automatic rifles were distributed?

 4        A.   Only the batch that was imported from Hungary contained 80.000.

 5     It was broadcast on TV.  But there probably was more except that the army

 6     did not have that other information.

 7        Q.   And going back to your previous answer, you said:

 8             "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency to have the

 9     circumstances changed."

10             And just to be clear, we're talking about the Presidency of the

11     SFRY, not the Presidency of Croatia, for example?

12        A.   Yes, the SFRY Presidency.  I also said that we were going to

13     attend a rally in support of the Presidency to provide our support to the

14     measures they proposed but did not implement.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Now, if we could please go to another clip from

16     this.  This is at 24 minutes, 46, until 25 minutes, 39.  Page 12 English,

17     page 11 B/C/S.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. STRINGER:

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, in this one, Mr. Hadzic, I believe you identified

22     this gentleman yesterday we see on the screen.  This is Mr. Petrovic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And here he is asked about if there's some -- if there's no more

25     Yugoslavia and then what?

Page 10173

 1             MR. STRINGER:  And so, in any event, let's -- let's start this.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Serbian people, as it seems, will

 4     have to take a very firm position in that moment and commence unification

 5     into one joint state which I have been calling Serbian country for about

 6     half a year now.  Serbian country singular, not Serbian countries, as

 7     some might say, because then every territory that would join this new

 8     Serbian state at some point, would have a possibility to say I'm out of

 9     here now as I'm only one of the territories of this state, once the worst

10     is over.  Therefore, a clear definition of Serbian state borders should

11     be defined right from the beginning."

12             MR. STRINGER:  And then let's play the next clip.

13        Q.   And then I'll come back to you with some questions Mr. Hadzic.

14             MR. STRINGER:  The next one is at 51 minutes, 54, to 53 minutes,

15     14, of this exhibit, 1956.  Page 24 English, page 23 B/C/S.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor:  As so as we bring this

19     evening's broadcast to an end, let us just ask Mr. Koncarevic, secretary

20     general of the Serbian National Council for Slavonia, Baranja, and

21     Western Srem, how do you see -- what is the solution for Serbs in

22     Croatia?

23             "Ilija Koncarevic:  I'm somewhat limited by the views of the

24     Serbian National Council in this evening's broadcast.  We have today

25     adopted a position as regards the solution to this problem that we shall

Page 10174

 1     forward to the Presidency.  There is disputed and undisputed territory in

 2     Croatia.  The undisputed territory is the territory where Croats were the

 3     ethnic majority before the beginning of World War I.  The undisputed,

 4     that is disputable territory, is the one in Krajina and Western Srem,

 5     Baranja, Slavonia, and Moslavina.  We propose that Yugoslav Presidencies

 6     suspend the authority of the Croatian parliament and Croatian leadership

 7     in all territories where Serbian people live.  This is because elementary

 8     human rights of Serbian people have been jeopardised and one has the

 9     elementary right to live.  This right has been threatened."

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, a few minutes ago in answering one of my

12     questions, you raised, you said - this is at page 17, line 22:

13             "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency to have the

14     circumstances changed, to have the arms withdrawn."

15             Now, what Mr. Koncarevic has just referred to here is the same

16     thing.  True?  He is referring also to an appeal or a request to be

17     directed to the Presidency of the SFRY?

18        A.   I know what I said.  As for Koncarevic's words, I do not wish to

19     provide any particular interpretation of it.  We could all hear what he

20     said.

21        Q.   Right.  My question is that the request to the SFRY Presidency,

22     the Presidency that he refers to here, is the same request that you had

23     in mind a couple of minutes ago when you answered my previous question.

24     True?

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 10175

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  It should be clarified whether the same

 2     request or to the same organ.  Or if it is the same request, I would ask

 3     for the reference.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have 65 ter 1939.04, please.  It is

 5     tab number -- I apologise, Mr. President.  I'm going to need a second to

 6     find the tab number for it.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. STRINGER:  743.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. STRINGER:  And just to -- while that's coming up in

11     responding to counsel's objection, the organ that I'm talking about here

12     is the Presidency of the SFRY.  That's the only one that I've asked

13     about, and that's what this is about.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's okay.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we looked at this yesterday.  You said you didn't

18     know anything about it.  I'd like to take another look at it now based

19     upon the remarks that we've seen from the television programme.  On the

20     television programme, Mr. Koncarevic refers to disputable and

21     indisputable territory in Croatia.  Would you agree with me, sir, that

22     what he is describing there actually corresponds quite nicely with

23     paragraphs 1.1 and 1.2 of the document that's now in front of you?

24        A.   That is what he and Koncarevic wrote about in the document.

25     Sorry, he and Petrovic.

Page 10176

 1        Q.   All right.  And when he says, "the SNC today adopted a position

 2     as regards the solution to this problem that we shall forward to the

 3     Presidency," he is referring to this document.  True?

 4      A. I don't know that.  I said what my position was and what my thoughts

 5     were on what the Presidency had to be told.  It had to do with the

 6     problem of the Croatian people arming themselves and that is why there

 7     was the rally in Vukovar.  As for Koncarevic and Petrovic, they lived in

 8     Serbia and they did not have the same problems I did and the problems my

 9     family had living in Croatia.  As for their political talk and position,

10     I did not get involved in it.  They were their personal opinions.

11        Q.   Well, in fact, you shared their opinions, Mr. Hadzic.  And as you

12     just said a few minutes ago in your testimony, quite spontaneously and on

13     your own, "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency."  The fact is

14     what you were referring to is this very document.  True?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Where did he say that, that he referred to this

18     document?  May we see that, please.

19             MR. STRINGER:  I'm not claiming the witness referred to the

20     document, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I agree, Mr. Stringer.  Please continue.

22             MR. STRINGER:

23        Q.   Should I say the -- give you the question again, Mr. Hadzic?

24        A.   Yes, please go ahead.  Repeat the question.

25        Q.   In your last answer you had said:

Page 10177

 1             "As for their political talk and position, I did not get involved

 2     in it.  They were their personal opinions."

 3             And then my question was:

 4             "Well, in fact you shared their opinions, Mr. Hadzic.  And as you

 5     just said a few minutes ago in your testimony, quite spontaneously and on

 6     your own, you asked for the assistance of the Presidency" -- sorry.  You

 7     said, "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency."

 8             And what you're referring to there is this request that's in this

 9     document that's referred to by Koncarevic on the television show.  It's

10     the same request; correct?

11        A.   No, it's not.  I didn't know about that request and that letter.

12     I said then very clearly, clearly and spontaneously, that we asked for

13     the Presidency's help for everybody to disarm.  When I said "everybody,"

14     I meant that -- I meant by that Croatia, which had armed itself, but also

15     those Serbs who had obtained arms, so that life together would be

16     possible.  I meant that we would live normally and that I was an optimist

17     and in favour of coexistence.  As for your conclusions here, they have

18     nothing to do with what I said.

19        Q.   In his remarks, Mr. Koncarevic also proposes that the

20     Yugoslav Presidency suspend the authority of the Croatian Sabor.  And we

21     see that in fact that request or demand is contained in this document at

22     paragraph 2, line 2, that goes to the Presidency of the SFRY.

23        A.   Well, I can repeat it for the tenth time now that I don't know

24     anything about that document.  I'm seeing it now for the first time.

25     Actually, I saw it for the first time when I received Petrovic's book.

Page 10178

 1        Q.   But on the 3rd of February, 1991, the date of this document, you

 2     were a member of the Serbian National Council; correct?

 3        A.   I was a member as of January the 7th, but I didn't have any

 4     meetings between January 7th and February 3rd, in order to reach any

 5     decisions on anything.

 6        Q.   Well, actually, you're meeting with the gentlemen here publicly

 7     and on television.  You're hearing their views.  You knew precisely what

 8     the views of the Serbian National Council were as they've just been set

 9     out by Messrs. Petrovic and Koncarevic.  True?

10        A.   You heard the official anchor announce me as the president of the

11     Social Democratic Party of the municipality of Vukovar and a member of

12     the council, and that is why -- at the time I was representing the views

13     of the party as well as the Serbian people, my friends and neighbours,

14     who lived there.  I did not get involved in high-ranking politics or the

15     historical rights of either peoples, which is what Petrovic and

16     Koncarevic were talking about.  And to tell you most sincerely, even now

17     I don't know what they referred to, these historical events, which I

18     never actually even later felt necessary to look up.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we again tender 65 ter 1939.04.  We

20     recognise that the witness won't agree that he knows anything about it or

21     otherwise associate himself with it.  But we feel that in the video

22     footage, Petrovic and Koncarevic have quite clearly authenticated the

23     document.  The document corresponds completely to Koncarevic's statements

24     in particular.  They are both members the SNC.  Mr. Hadzic is a member of

25     the SNC.  In our view, they are clearly setting out what is the policy,

Page 10179

 1     the objective of the SNC as set out in this document, and we think that

 2     it's sufficiently relevant and authentic to be admitted into evidence.

 3     MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object again.  There is no foundation to -- to

 4   admit this document into evidence because the witness doesn't know anything

 5     about this particular document.  He's confronted with it and it is in the

 6     transcript, but it is not reason for -- to -- to admit it into evidence.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection is overruled.  The document is

 9     admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P3214.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1005, which is P53.  This

13     is a video.  And we'll wait for the interpreters to tell us when they're

14     ready.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  We're ready.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Brothers and sisters, I greet you

18     with our tradition greeting, God help us all.  May God help you.  As a

19     president of the Municipal Board which you belong to, it is my duty to

20     say something about our Vukovar Municipal Board, even though there are

21     many topics we're going to discuss later on.  Our party was established

22     on 10th June last year in Vukovar and 19 boards have been established

23     since then.  Today the party has 21 boards.  And I congratulate you on

24     establishing your two.  We have faced many problems in our party.  You

25     are familiar with them and you know who caused them.  However, we managed

Page 10180

 1     to get over them.  And we should thank or current leadership for uniting

 2     us and helping us achieve unity.  We are stronger and united now.  As a

 3     people, we have never looked to God, not left, not right.  We always knew

 4     that we were stronger together and we have relied on that.  And that's

 5     why we always sang that song, We are stronger together.  I would like to

 6     tell you now something about the programme and what we discussed at the

 7     beginning.  As you know, present at our rallies, our main goal was united

 8     Yugoslavia, united people's army.  These are our goals even today.  We

 9     have remained on the path of Saint Sava, and I wish you all the best for

10     this holiday today.  As a great Serbian academician Matija Betkovic would

11     say, Saint Sava walked the road and everyone barked at him.  But let's

12     for get that, let's follow his road.  I would rather say a few words

13     about our current problems because I believe it is not the time for big

14     speeches.  It is time for work.  We Serbs in Croatia are free-thinking

15   democrats by our own conviction.  We even had radicals before the war here,

16   but where are we now?  We have found ourselves in a situation where we have

17     to divide into two parties due to the politics of one nation.  To divide

18     into Serbs and Croats, for us as a people, it comes as a shock.  We are

19     not nationalists.  Our views are boarder but we have to accept this as a

20     fact and organise ourselves.  I believe and I am sure that everyone who

21     watched TV two nights ago felt just like I did.  This is how I am

22     thinking.  Not even 80.000 Serbs can we manage to find in the world and

23     persuade them to talk badly about other people.  And others have been

24     given 80.000 machine-guns and are keeping them so that they could use

25     them against us.  This is ridiculous.  1941 happened.  1945 happened.

Page 10181

 1     Then 1971.  And then we thought, we would forgive them.  It would not

 2     happen again.  But I'm telling you now, very responsibly, if the Croatian

 3     people do not renounce their Ustashas publicly, for the first time since

 4    1941, we will propose through our Serbian National Council to cut all ties

 5     between Serbs and Croats.  Our perphidious policy led since the 1850s

 6     since the time of Ante Starcevic has reached final stage now.  They were

 7     not so perphidious.  Had they led their perphidious policy for another

 8     couple of years, the Serb people would not have managed to unite.  They

 9     can do nothing to us now on a regional legal, on a republican and federal

10     level.  They are facing problem.  Let me tell you why:  Because we are

11     democratic.  We have thought about things that they had said and we

12     thought whether or not they really meant it.  However, I thank them for

13     that.  We're united and there will be no division within the party.  We

14     understood that people should talk but there can be no dialogue with

15     them.  I would not talk about this anymore.  I would like to invite you

16     to join the Social Democratic Party.  You don't have to become members of

17     the party but just follow its policy and participate in its activities.

18     Three days ago, we had a meeting in Trpinja with intellectuals.  Well, we

19     call them intellectuals but, actually, they were businessmen of the

20     Vukovar municipality.  We expected -- we invited 50 or 60 of them but

21     some 200 of them turned up.  It means that people who had not been

22     organised before realised where they belong.  We told them that a huge

23     number of Serbian people do not belong to the Social Democratic Party,

24     many of them belong to the Social Democratic Party, but the remaining

25     irrelevant part of them ..."

Page 10182

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Text unclear, interpreter notes.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... here I have it in my pocket.  I

 4     have prepared some conclusions that were reached at that meeting, but I'd

 5     rather not read them to you.  It will be published in all newspapers

 6     tomorrow or the day after.  I would just like to tell you a few words of

 7     what the conclusions were.  It was concluded ..."

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Text unclear, interpreter notes.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... support of the Vukovar

11     municipality for the recognition of the Serbian National Council.  More

12     importantly, it was decided that the board of representatives for the

13     protection of Serbian national interest should be established within the

14     Vukovar Municipal Assembly.  We do represent the Social Democratic Party,

15     but, above all, we have interests of the Serbian people in mind.  I beg

16     you, well, I'm not begging you, but I ask you to think about the

17     interests of the Serbian people before anything else.  I would like to

18     finish this speech with the words:  God help us, and he will."

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, at the beginning of the video, not at the beginning

21     but at -- an earlier part, you make a reference to Saint Sava and wishing

22     all of those people there all the best for this holiday today.  Is that

23     Saint Sava Day which I believe falls in late January?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So this is -- is it the 27th of January, 1991, when this speech

Page 10183

 1     took place?

 2        A.   Probably, yes.

 3        Q.   And we heard in this speech two references to the

 4     Serbian National Council.  I suggest to you, sir, that you were clearly

 5     supporting and advocating the Serbian National Council as a body through

 6     which you were acting.  Isn't it true that in late January of 1991 you

 7     were participating and advocating the Serbian National Council to other

 8     Serbs in the region?

 9        A.   The Serbian National Council was founded in early January, so

10     there was no need for me to speak anything against it in late January.

11        Q.   And in fact in referring to it, you referred to it as "our

12     Serbian National Council."

13             Mr. Hadzic, you knew precisely what the Serbian National Council

14     stood for, and you were participating and advocating that it act on the

15     behalf of all Serbs.  True?

16        A.   As for your assertion that I knew what it was standing for, it is

17     correct, and that is what I said both I and the Serbian National Council

18    stood for, but that is not what you are claiming as regards this letter by

19    Ilija Petrovic, which I did not even know about.  It's not the same thing.

20     I still think, and I also thought then, that the Serbian National Council

21    was in favour of preserving the interests of the Serbian people.  We are a

22   people who went through genocide in World War II, and I believed that after

23  this, if you understood it from my speech, that at the time it was announced

24   that Croatia had armed itself with 80.000 automatic rifles, and this was a

25     consequence of that.  And for that reason, I would like to ask you to

Page 10184

 1     keep that in mind and keep that context in mind when you are discussing

 2     this particular footage.

 3        Q.   You were on the television programme with Messrs. Petrovic and

 4     Koncarevic, you were a member of the Serbian National Council at the time

 5     of the television conversation, and you heard Koncarevic articulating

 6     very clearly what the SNC's objectives were.  So you knew fully what its

 7     objectives were.  You knew fully what the SNC was about, as set out on

 8     the television show by Koncarevic, as well as in this document that was

 9     sent to the SFRY Presidency in early February.

10        A.   I've already said that I understood Koncarevic's speech as

11     something that was personal, and we were there, each of us, in our

12     private capacity, as individuals.  What we should keep in mind here is

13     that this was an attempt here at peaceful resolution of the problem

14     without war and without any suffering.

15     MR. STRINGER:  Could we please go back to the clip of Koncarevic. Again,

16   it's tab 999, P1956. It's at 51 minutes, 54. Page 24 of the English, 23 of

17   the B/C/S.  It's my last question on this, Mr. President, and I'll move on.

18             We'll wait for the interpreters.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, we're ready.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor:  And so as we bring this

23     evening's broadcast to an end, let us just ask Mr. Koncarevic, secretary

24     general of the Serbian National Council for Slavonia, Baranja, and

25     Western Srem, how do you see -- what is the solution for Serbs in

Page 10185

 1     Croatia?

 2             "Ilija Koncarevic:  I am somewhat limited by the views of the

 3     Serbian National Council in this evening's broadcast.  We have today

 4     adopted a position as regards the solution to this problem that we shall

 5     forward to the Presidency.  There is disputable and indisputable

 6     territory in Croatia.  The indisputable territory is the territory where

 7     the Croats were an ethnic majority before the beginning of World War I."

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, what Mr. Koncarevic makes clear here is that he is

10     not expressing his personal views.  He is referring expressly to the

11     views of the Serbian National Council.  That's my suggestion.  He says:

12             "I'm somewhat limited by the views of the Serbian National

13     Council in this evenings's broadcast.  We have today adopted a

14     position ..."

15             So he is not speaking about his personal views.  He's in fact

16     expressing the policy of the SNC of which you are a member; correct?

17        A.   Of course not.  That is not correct.  We did not even meet that

18     day.  Mr. Koncarevic here is trying to increase the reputation of the

19     Serbian National Council which was just being established, so he gave

20     himself some more importance, and it was obvious to me.  It may seem

21     strange to you now, but what he was saying is that he now had an

22     organisation to back him, which, at that time, was just in the process of

23     being established, so it wasn't even meeting at the time.  I could have

24     jumped up and slapped him.  But I wasn't his father or instructor to tell

25     him that he was lying.

Page 10186

 1        Q. Well, actually as it turned out, Mr. Koncarevic, who we see here on

 2     the screen, turned out to be the president of the Great National Assembly

 3     of the SBWS when it began issuing laws in September of 1991; correct?

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, if the witness could repeat his last

 6     sentence.  Here in transcript state:

 7             "But I wasn't his father or any figure who could be able to tell

 8     him that he was lying."

 9             I think that he said something else in B/C/S.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, could you ask the witness to

11     clarify.

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   Could you please do so, Mr. Hadzic.  Yeah.

14        A.   Yes.  I said I wasn't his father or his instructor, a person

15     bringing him up.  The other thing was, that I could have jumped up and

16     slapped him and told him he was lying.  I could not do that.

17        Q.   You just asserted that what Mr. Koncarevic was doing was trying

18     to increase the reputation of the Serbian National Council.  In fact,

19     that's exactly what you were doing when you gave the speech that we just

20     saw on Saint Sava Day in which you were out there advocating and telling

21     people what the SNC was going to do for them.  True?

22        A.   Well, that's why the Serbian National Council was founded, to

23     take care of the overall interests of the Serbian people, and for us not

24     to permit for the worst thing to happen to us, what I referred to.  In

25     history this is something that is well-known.  It was supposed to be a

Page 10187

 1     non-party, above-party organisation, to represent all Serbs, and not only

 2     the members of the Serbian Democratic Party, at least that's how I

 3     understood it when I was there at that founding assembly.  It was

 4     supposed to be an umbrella organisation.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, it's a couple of minutes early, but

 6     I'm going to be making a big change in topic at this point, so it may be

 7     a good time.

 8         JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.  We'll take the first break.

 9             Court adjourned.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             If we can please have tab 388.  This is L1.

15        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we're going to go back to some of the laws that were

16     in the Official Gazettes of the SBWS as we were doing yesterday at the

17     end of the day.

18             MR. STRINGER:  And I'd -- I asked that we go first -- or next, I

19     should say, to the Law on the Government of the Serb District of the SBWS

20     which is at page 29 of the English, and at the moment I do not have a

21     B/C/S page reference to give to the Registrar.  I apologise for that.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MR. STRINGER:  Page 10 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And I don't want to spend too much time on this, Mr. Hadzic, but

25     at Article 1 there, we see -- well, let me ask you this first:  This is

Page 10188

 1     passed on 9th of October, 1991.  I think the ones we discussed yesterday

 2     were passed on the 25th of September.  This law passed at the 3rd Session

 3     on the 9th of October, 1991.  Do you know where that government session

 4     would have been held?

 5        A.   The interpretation I got was "the government," whereas on the

 6     document, I can see the word "assembly."

 7             I believe that you misspoke.  Did you mean the government or

 8     actually the assembly?

 9        Q.   It may be that you're looking at a different law than -- than I'm

10     looking at.  I'm looking at the Law on the Government of the

11     Serb District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  It is ...

12        A.   Yes.  But your question was about when that government session

13     took place.  However, I can see in the document that it was an assembly

14     session on the 9th of October.  So I suppose that your question should be

15     where the assembly session took place.

16        Q.   You're right, I misspoke.  Assembly session.  Was that in

17     Beli Manastir?

18        A.   I believe that all the assembly sessions were held in

19     Beli Manastir, so this one should not have been an exception.

20        Q.   And according to this law, then, the government of the SBWS -

21     this is Article 1 - as the organ of executive authority shall carry out

22     the duties as specified by the constitutional law and shall be

23     responsible for the Great National Assembly for the discharge of such

24     duties.

25             Mr. Hadzic, just so we're clear, so you, as prime minister, were

Page 10189

 1     the head of the executive part of the government, that is, the

 2     government -- the part that was responsible for carrying out the duties

 3     set out in the -- in the law?

 4        A.   That's how it was meant.  However, I have to emphasise that all

 5     of this had been prepared for some normal time, for peacetime.  In that

 6     area, throughout 1991, we had a military administration and that

 7     continued in 1992.  Those decisions were prepared for the moment when

 8     civilian authorities would be able to take over in peacetime.  However,

 9     all of these decisions were passed during the military administration.

10        Q.   And in Article 2, then we see that the government is to conduct

11     the policy of the SBWS and that in item 3 it had the power to adopt

12     decrees, decisions, and other acts for enforcing the laws.

13             You recall, Mr. Hadzic, that in fact during this period, 1991

14     included, you actually did adopt decrees, decision, the government did,

15     pursuant to Article 2 here?

16        A.   I remember that the government did make proposals and adopted

17     some things, but most of the laws were adopted by the assembly, and the

18     assembly was the only body that was allowed to pass any laws because it

19     was the legislative body.

20        Q.   Well, tell us what was the difference between the law passed by

21     the Great National Assembly in a decree or decision here that is referred

22     to in item 3?  Can you give an example of something the government could

23     adopt a decree or decision about?

24        A.   I can't remember a single case.  There were such cases.  I can't

25     remember them.  Those were the so-called decree laws, but I can't

Page 10190

 1     remember any one of them.

 2        Q.   You signed off on decisions appointing people to positions, for

 3     example, didn't you?

 4        A.   I could do that only based on the government's decisions.

 5        Q.   My question was:  You signed off on decisions appointing people

 6     to positions.  Isn't that true?

 7        A.   I can't remember.  But I do think that I signed off every

 8     government's decision or everything that was in keeping with the

 9     government's decisions.  I can't remember that I signed anything

10     independently of my own will.

11        Q.  The next law in the Gazette is the Law on Measures in the state of

12  emergency and we're going to skip over that one. I'm going to skip over that

13   one, going to skip over the Law on Courts, and we're going to go to the

14    decision on the Territorial Defence of the SBWS joining SFRY armed forces.

15             MR. STRINGER:  This is page 62 of the English, 20 of -- page 20

16     of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Now, this is dated the 10th of October, 1991.  And we see in

18     Article 1 that the Territorial Defence of the SBWS is hereby joining with

19     SFRY armed forces and becoming part of it.

20             Article 2:

21             "The government of the Serb District of SBWS is authorised to

22     take all measures necessary to execute this decision, in co-operation

23     with the Federal Secretariat of National Defence."

24             Mr. Hadzic, can we agree that Article 2, the reference to the

25     Federal Secretariat of National Defence, is indeed the federal body of

Page 10191

 1     the SFRY, the SFRY Federal Secretariat for National Defence?

 2        A.   Yes.  At that time we were part of the SFRY.

 3        Q.   And, really, this decision here is -- is simply doing what the

 4     SFRY -- let me start again.

 5             The decision is making clear what really the SFRY law already

 6     provides, which is that the Territorial Defence is a part of the SFRY

 7     armed forces under the Law on All People's Defence?

 8        A.   That was under the law.  The armed forces consisted of the JNA

 9     and the Territorial Defence.  In wartime, they were one and the same.

10        Q.   Now, a moment ago, Mr. Hadzic, I asked you about appointments.  I

11     do want to step off this document for a few moments and ask you something

12     related to appointments but for a different time-period.

13             In your testimony on direct examination, on the 8th of July,

14     transcript page 9517, you were shown an exhibit, D117.  I believe it was

15     the text of a -- of a news article related to the appointment of

16     Ilija Kojic as the commander of the Territorial Defence.  Do you recall

17     that?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   And then at page 9519 of the transcript, you said that

20     Janko Milakovic was elected at the proposal of Ilija Kojic; correct?

21        A.   I remember that Ilija Kojic suggested that Janko Milakovic should

22     be appointed to that position.

23             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have tab 22.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I think that the name of -- okay.  Okay.

25     It is corrected.  Sorry.

Page 10192

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Apologise.  Let's skip over tab 22, which was

 2     D117, that's the document I just asked Mr. Hadzic about, and move to

 3     tab 753.  65 ter 1939.14.

 4        Q.   As that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, this is one of the documents we

 5     reproduced from Mr. Petrovic's book.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry.  This should be 65 ter 1939.14.  Yeah.

 7        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Hadzic, that it was -- it was you as chairman

 8     of the -- what this document says National Council of Serbs that you

 9     signed off on the appointment to establish a Territorial Defence Staff on

10     the 14th of July and that Mr. Kojic was, at that time, appointed as

11     commander of the Territorial Defence Staff.  Do you recall that?

12        A.   I remember that he was both proposed and appointed, but I don't

13     remember having signed anything.  I may have, but I can't remember.

14        Q.   As of this time - 14th of July, 1991 - you were the chairman or

15     the president of the SNC, the Serb National Council; correct?

16        A.   Formally.  I was appointed on the 26th of June in Backa Palanka.

17        Q.   And then in that capacity on this day, you appointed Mr. Kojic to

18     be the commander of the TO; correct?

19        A.   It was the Serbian National Council that appointed him.  I was

20     nothing more than its president.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender that into evidence.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P3215.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. STRINGER:  If we could now have tab 754, which is

Page 10193

 1     65 ter number 1939.15.

 2        Q.   And at roughly the same time here, mid-July 1991, did -- well,

 3     was Mr. Milakovic here, as indicated, appointed as the secretary of the

 4     regional secretariat of the interior called the SUP and that was also

 5     done through you and the SNC?

 6        A.   Yes, the SNC did that.  But I don't remember having signed that

 7     either.

 8        Q.   But in terms of what's indicated in the document here, you don't

 9     disagree with this?

10        A.   Please bear with me.  I need to see what's in it.

11             I know that Janko Milakovic was appointed as the SUP secretary

12     but I don't remember that the decision was passed at the assembly

13     session.  Also I don't remember that I signed the document to that effect

14     but I know that he was appointed and that he had been put forward by

15     Ilija Kojic.

16        Q.   And, actually, this document is dated as the -- the same day, the

17     14th of July, that the Kojic document is -- the Kojic appointment that we

18     just saw.  The Milakovic is done through the SNC then?

19        A.   I'm not sure, but I should have thought so, yes.  I'm confused by

20     the -- by what he said and that he was nominated by somebody called Ante.

21     I don't know any such person.

22        Q.   I apologise, Mr. Hadzic.  I'm not seeing what you're -- what

23     you're referring to there, Ante?

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I think we should move to the


Page 10194

 1     private session in -- at this moment.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

20             MR. STRINGER:

21        Q.   In any event, Mr. Hadzic, the question is simply whether as

22     indicated here this gentleman, Mr. Milakovic, was appointed to this

23     position, secretary of the SUP, on the 14th of July by or through the

24     Serbian National Council?

25        A.   It says so in here.  I said the other thing as well, but that's


Page 10195

 1     what it says in here.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  We would tendered that, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned exhibit P3216.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Tab 757, please, which is 65 ter 1939.18.  This is

 8     another one from the Petrovic book.

 9        Q.   As it's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, I can tell you it's

10     23rd of August, 1991.  Proclamation of general mobilisation.  And,

11     actually -- or, I should say, and, actually, this one in the original

12     language version appears to be above your handwritten signature.  Do you

13     recognise that?

14        A.   I'm not sure that this is my signature.  But I am not denying the

15     fact that this proclamation was published.

16        Q.   In your direct examination at page 9651, you were asked if you

17     remembered that the government of SBWS in the summer of 1991 issued a

18     declaration on general mobilisation.  And you said that you did, indeed,

19     remember that.

20        A.   Yes, and I explained.  I said that those people had left the

21     territory, their houses stayed behind, and some of their family members,

22     mostly the elderly parents, they lived carefree in Serbia while their

23     houses and their family members were supposed to be protected by their

24    neighbours, and there was a great pressure from those neighbours, who were

25    not happy and insisted that those people should come back and defend their

Page 10196

 1     own homes.  I believe that you will remember that I've already said that.

 2        Q.   And just for context, this is -- this is taking place about three

 3     weeks or so after the operation at Dalj in which the first of the towns

 4     was, as you would say, liberated.  And so the mobilisation here is -- is

 5     going out, I would suggest, because in the weeks following the liberation

 6     of Dalj, conditions were better for people who had left to come back.

 7     Would -- would you agree with that?

 8        A.   That had nothing to do with the liberation of Dalj.  It applied

 9     to the entire territory at that moment.  We met in Dalj by chance because

10     there were adequate premises there.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 205, please, which is P00166.

12        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a "Politika" article published on the

13     24th of August, 1991, and it's reporting on the general mobilisation.

14     And here it says:

15             "The government of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem

16     yesterday declared general mobilisation.  The proclamation signed by

17     Prime Minister Goran Hadzic reads as follows ..." and then the text.

18        A.   I believe that this is the same, the only difference being that

19     this is a newspaper article.

20        Q.   I would agree with you on that, sir.  My point here is what's

21     indicated here is in fact a proclamation.  The document was signed by

22     you, and so I'd suggest that in fact, as we've seen in the earlier

23     document, you personally issued the general mobilisation in your capacity

24     as prime minister, as what's indicated here, even though you were

25     prime minister-elect at the time.

Page 10197

 1        A.  I don't understand your assertion. I signed this as the conclusion

 2     from a meeting that I had with government members, i.e. I signed it on

 3     behalf of everybody.  I don't know if this is my signature at all, but I

 4     do remember that decision on mobilisation and I explained why it had been

 5     passed.  I already said that I'm not contesting this document at all.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, then we would tender 1939.18.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P3217.  Thank you.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Could I have just one moment, Mr. President.  I

10     apologise.

11             Thank you.  The next exhibit is tab 763, 65 ter 1939.24, again

12     from the Petrovic book.

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, this is what's called:

14             "An appeal of the defence commander for AO, Autonomous District,

15     Baranja, Slavonia, and Western Srem last call to battle.

16     25th September is the last deadline for return of all men fit for

17     combat."

18             MR. STRINGER:  And we can ask the Registrar to move to the last

19     page of it, page 5 of the English.  Apologies.  Page 4 of the English.

20        Q.   What we see here is that this is above the name of Ilija Kojic.

21     And my question is whether you recall this, Mr. Hadzic, that as a result

22     of or as a follow-up to the mobilisation order that we just looked at

23     that went out in late August, the 24th of August, there was a subsequent

24     call on the part of Mr. Kojic, who is indicated here as defence commander

25     of the autonomous district, for able-bodied men to return and to take

Page 10198

 1     part in the hostilities.  Do you recall this?

 2        A.   No, I don't.

 3        Q.   You said that Mr. Kojic was injured and left the -- the theatre,

 4     the -- the area of SBWS in early October 1991.  What was he doing during

 5     the few weeks prior to that, say, around the date of this,

 6     22nd of September?

 7        A.   He was one of the candidates for minister of defence.

 8        Q.   We were given that you said, "He was one of the candidates for

 9     minister of defence" of -- and I take it that that means that --

10        A.   No.  Actually, not one of.  He was a candidate and he was

11     actually acting minister of defence before his appointment.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

13     the date he placed at the very end of the sentence.  We did not hear it.

14             MR. STRINGER:

15        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, could you repeat the date that you say -- that you

16     gave at the end of your answer.

17        A.   The 25th of September, when the Great National Assembly sat.  But

18     even before that, it was general knowledge that he would be the minister

19     of defence.

20        Q.   He was sort of like a minister of defence-elect, like you were

21     the prime minister-elect, if you will?

22        A.   Precisely.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Could we now please have tab 333, which is L38.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, we've -- you talked about this document already

25     in your direct examination.  These are the minutes of a government

Page 10199

 1     session held in Erdut on the 19th of November, 1991.

 2             And before I ask you about the document, I wanted to ask you --

 3     you gave -- you testified in your direct examination that the secretary,

 4     who I believe was Mr. Pejakovic, who was the person who actually made the

 5     minutes, he remained in Dalj even though the government moved to Erdut at

 6     some point.  Is that how it was?

 7        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

 8        Q.   So if it indicates in the upper left-hand corner here, it says,

 9     "Dalj, 20 November 1991," is that indicating that in fact Mr. Pejakovic

10     made the minutes in Dalj on the day after the meeting?

11        A.   Yes, that is obvious, at least to me.

12        Q.   And then the meeting itself occurred in Erdut?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now at this meeting were yourself, Dr. Hadzic, Ilija Petrovic,

15     other members of the government.  Absent was Ilija Kojic.  And then

16     present also was Sava Stupar and Radovan Stojicic, among others.  And,

17     again, just to remind ourselves, this is the 19th of November, so the

18     fall of Vukovar, I'd suggest, is imminent.  Actually, it's already fallen

19     on the previous day, the 18th; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And turning to page 2 of the English, the agenda is item 1 is

22     "for the adoption of the draft Law on Temporary Territorial Organisation

23     of the Serbian District of SBWS and temporary local administration."

24             And then item 2 is the report on the military and political

25     situation.

Page 10200

 1             And then item 3 for an activity plan.

 2             And then in the minutes there, the discussion on item 1,

 3     Mr. Susa, who was the minister of justice, briefed those present on the

 4     draft Law on Temporary Territorial Organisation.  The question was raised

 5     whether or not Ilok should have the status of a municipality, and then

 6     also it was stated that because of the political situation, the seat of

 7     Osijek municipality should be temporarily located in Tenja.

 8             So what's happening here, Mr. Hadzic, is that on the day after

 9     the fall of Vukovar, the government has come together in session in order

10     to formalise or adopt legislation that would formalise the demarkation of

11     the SBWS territory.  True?

12        A.   I cannot exactly confirm that because I do not understand it

13     precisely.  But you can see what it is that we discussed.  It was on the

14     agenda:  Current issues.

15        Q.   And the issue on the agenda was to actually address the question

16     of what would be the territory now of this district, SBWS, now that

17     Croatian armed forces had capitulated in Vukovar.  It was in your hands

18     and the hands of the Serb side.  So now it was about how to follow up on

19     that by identifying the territory?

20        A.   Well, it did not happen solely because of Vukovar.  What is

21     discussed here is temporary or provisional territorial organisation.

22     There was a question of Ilok and whether it would be a municipality and

23     that the seat of the Osijek municipality be in Tenja, et cetera.  We were

24     not aware of the situation in Vukovar because the army was still there,

25     and we had no access to it at the time we discussed it.

Page 10201

 1        Q.   Well, you knew that Vukovar had fallen.

 2        A.   The whole world knew, including myself.

 3        Q.   Item 2 here on page 3 of the English has you briefing those

 4     present about the current situation from the international point of view:

 5             "Talks which had been held with the representatives of the

 6     Republic of Serbia and the Yugoslav People's Army."

 7             My first question, Mr. Hadzic, then, is:  Who it that you spoke

 8     to?  "Representatives of the Republic of Serbia"?

 9        A.   As early as October, I was in intensive consultation with

10     international guests from international institutions, as well as with

11     representatives of the Republic of Serbia.  At the time I had discussions

12     with a general by the name of Slavko Jovic concerning the arrival of

13     Blue Helmets.  Before that --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

15     his last sentence.

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   The interpreters missed the last part of your answer, your last

18     sentence.

19        A.   I was sent by the Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic, to meet

20     with the general, Mr. Jovic.  I think I've explained that during

21     examination-in-chief.

22        Q.   Well, this says "representatives."  It's in the plural.  Were

23     there other representatives of Serbia that you were in touch with during

24     this period of time?

25        A.   I was in contact with those experts who were versed in

Page 10202

 1     international politics:  Vasilje Krestic, Kosta Mihajlovic,

 2     Milenko Kreca, Smilja Avramov [phoen].

 3        Q.   And then in terms of contacts or talks with the

 4     Yugoslav People's Army?

 5        A.   I said a moment ago it was Major-General Slavko Jovic.

 6        Q.   And then in the same paragraph, moving down a few lines, the

 7     government unanimously decided that the commander of the

 8     Territorial Defence had their full confidence and that its status had

 9     been established by the decision of the Great people's Assembly which

10     proclaimed the units of the Territorial Defence form a part of the

11     Yugoslav forces.

12             So here, Mr. Hadzic, the commander of the Territorial Defence who

13     is being referred to here is Radovan Stojicic?

14        A.   Obviously we did not decide on that; we only provided our full

15     support and he had already been imposed on us, so to say.  We merely

16     confirmed the de facto situation.  We were not asked about it.  However,

17     we did say that we were not against it.  Even if we had been, there would

18     have been no point, in my view.

19        Q.   Well, actually, it's different than that, Mr. Hadzic.  You make

20     it sound as though were sort of reluctantly, grudgingly having to put up

21     with him.  In fact, he was welcomed by you and he had your full support,

22     that is, he had the full support of your government; correct?

23        A.   It could have been so or not, but it didn't change a thing.  He

24     came as a federal representative, and he appropriated that position

25     independent of the government will.  We could agree or disagree, but we

Page 10203

 1     believed it to be better not to cause any trouble around that because

 2     there would have been no point, and we did not have a reason to object.

 3        Q.   Can we agree that the government of the SBWS had full confidence

 4     in Radovan Stojicic as its TO commander on the 19th of November, 1991?

 5        A.   As we can see in the conclusion, one might say so.  But I would

 6     rather say that we could not hold a grudge against him, and there was

 7     no reason for us to do so.

 8        Q.   Well, why would you not have been happy about having him as your

 9     TO commander?  Things were in disarray when he arrived.  He came and

10     sorted out your police and he came and sorted out your

11     Territorial Defence; isn't that true?

12        A.   That is true.  But he did all that of his own accord, without any

13     previous arrangements with us.  It is true that he did that, yes.

14        Q.   And you happily accepted his support and his work; correct?

15        A.   Well, I don't know how happy we were, but we had to accept it.

16             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please go back now to L1, the

17     Gazettes, tab 388.  And now to the -- the Law on the

18     Temporary Territorial Organisation of the Serb Region of SBWS and the

19     Temporary Local Administration.  It's at page 84 of the English; page 20

20     of the B/C/S at the bottom on the right.

21        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we were just looking at the government -- the minutes

22     of the government meeting on the 19th of November when your justice

23     minister, Mr. Susa, brought the draft Law on Territorial Organisation --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, we don't have on the screen, on the left

Page 10204

 1     side of the screen, the text that corresponds to the right side of the

 2     screen.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry.  It's page 29 of the B/C/S.  Right, that's

 4     my mistake.  Page 29 of the B/C/S.  Again, at the bottom on the right.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Now it's correct.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   And we see in the preamble, Mr. Hadzic, that this law was taken

 8     up at the fifth regular session on the 22nd of November, 1991.  So it's

 9     three days after the government meeting in Erdut that we were discussing

10     before.

11             So the question is whether the draft law that Mr. Susa brought to

12     the meeting of the government on the 19th of November is what we're

13     seeing here now in the Gazette as having been adopted by the assembly

14     three days later at its session on the 22nd of November.

15        A.   From this place here, I can presume it was so, but I cannot be

16     100 per cent sure.

17        Q.   As the justice minister, it was Mr. Susa who was, I would think,

18     at least among those who drafted proposed legislation to be presented to

19     the assembly for its consideration.  Is that one of the roles he played?

20        A.   I think so.  But I think he was assisted by some experts from the

21     federal state that we were a part of.  That is to say, the SFRY.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Now, if we could go to Article 7 of this law.

23     Page 30 of the B/C/S; 85, English.

24        Q.   And, actually, you can see in Article 6 as well, it's talking

25     about names of existing inhabited places being changed.  That's in

Page 10205

 1     Article 6.  That they can't be changing the names until elections for the

 2     district assembly are underway.

 3             And then in Article 7 there's a reference to Executive Councils

 4     and that's what I want to ask you about here.  It says:

 5             "Executive Councils of the municipalities, in agreement with the

 6     Executive Councils of the local commune, determine the names of parts of

 7     the inhabited place (street, squares) with the prior consent of the

 8     ministry authorised in matters of town planning."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   Could you just tell us briefly:  What were the Executive Councils

12     referred to here?

13        A.   Reference is made to the Executive Councils of municipalities and

14     local communes.  At the time, there was no possibility to set up

15     assemblies in municipalities and local communes.  Hence, the

16     Executive Councils exercised the functions of civilian authorities both

17     in the communes and the municipalities.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And then moving to Article 10, here we see setting

19     out what in fact are or will be the municipalities in the Serb District:

20             "The municipalities in the Serb District are Vukovar,

21     Beli Manastir, Vinkovci, with temporary seat in Mirkovci, Dalj and

22     Osijek, with temporary seat in Tenja."

23             And then we see in Article 11, and it continues on for several

24     pages, a listing of the actual villages or settlements, towns within the

25     municipalities that fall within the territorial organisation of the SBWS.

Page 10206

 1     Starting with Vukovar, continuing across page 87 of the English, to

 2     Beli Manastir.  Page 88, Vinkovci.  Page 89, Dalj.  And we don't have to

 3     look at all of those right now.  We're going to look at a few of them in

 4     the moments to come.

 5             So what's happening here, Mr. Hadzic, is that this being the

 6     22nd of November, 1991, the Serbs had achieved military control over much

 7     of the territorial that it was claiming for the Serb District.  Can we

 8     first agree on that:  By the 22nd of November, the Serbs had achieved

 9     military control over much of the territory that it was claiming for the

10     Serb District?

11        A.   I cannot agree with that.  Military control was established by

12     the JNA.  They had their own Presidency with members who were not only

13     Serb.

14        Q.   Okay.  Let me clarify that then.  For the moment, I don't want to

15     distinguish between military or political control, Serb military, or Serb

16     politicians.  I just simply want to see if we can agree that by the

17     22nd of November, the Serb side, if you will, had achieved control over

18     much of what was claimed to be SBWS autonomous district.

19        A.   I could agree with you if, instead of the Serb side, you used the

20     term the Yugoslav side.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'll accept that.  Now, looking at Article 11 here, which

22     we're seeing Vukovar and then a number of the towns that are located in

23     it, and keeping that in mind -- well, let's move across to the next page

24     so the Chamber can see more of these.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Next page of the English.  This is Beli Manastir.

Page 10207

 1     And then with a number of -- maybe I should ask you, Mr. Hadzic, under

 2     Beli Manastir, here just, for example, we're seeing individual locations,

 3     such as Baranjsko Petrovo Selo, Batina, Bilje, Bolman, Branjin.  What are

 4     those places, towns, villages inside Beli Manastir municipality?

 5        A.   Yes, these are all villages in the Beli Manastir municipality.

 6     Beli Manastir itself a town.  All of these are villages in Baranja.

 7        Q.   And then moving across to the next page of the English, page 88,

 8     again the list of places in Beli Manastir continues.  And then Vinkovci

 9     appears.  And then it continues with the list of places in Vinkovci.  And

10     then on page 89, moves into Dalj.  And then page 90, Osijek.  Temporary

11     seat in Tenja.

12             So what's happening here, Mr. Hadzic, is that by virtue of this

13     Law on Territorial Organisation, the places are being identified over

14     which the Serbian District and its government and its legislative

15     governmental bodies will be applying their laws and their jurisdiction in

16     place of the Law on the Jurisdiction of Croatia; correct?

17        A.   Correct.  But in some future period when fighting stops and when

18     the military administration hands over power to the civilian

19     administration.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Now if we could please have P01776 which is

21     tab 394.

22        Q.   This is, Mr. Hadzic, as it's coming up, this is the census -- the

23     census data for these places that I want to take you to from the 1991

24     census.

25             MR. STRINGER:  And we would go first to e-court page 26.  That's

Page 10208

 1     page 26 of the e-court file.

 2        Q.   And at the top there, the third entry is for Beli Manastir.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Perhaps we could blow that up.

 4        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, what this is telling us is that according to the 1991

 5     census, they've got 54.265 people in Beli Manastir - this is the

 6     municipality - of which 22.740 are Croats.  And then moving across to

 7     column 8, 13.851 are Serbs.  And actually moving out to column 14, 8.956

 8     are Hungarians.

 9             So what that means, Mr. Hadzic, isn't it true that this

10     Beli Manastir that is going to be part of your Serb District --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  May we know, is it the whole page or just

13     a part of the page?  Because I don't see Yugoslavs as the option.

14             MR. STRINGER:  That's on the next page.  That's going to be as

15     page 27 in e-court file.

16             Just so Your Honour knows the census, a single page is spread

17     across two of these pages.  The columns continue out and so --

18             But if I may say, Mr.  President, this may be something for

19     re-direct.  I've got questions that I'd like to ask Mr. Hadzic, and if my

20     learned friend would like to ask questions about the percentage of people

21     declaring them Yugoslavs there, he is free to do that on his re-direct.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, my understanding, the witness is entitled

24     to see the whole document, not just a part of it or just half of the page

25     of this particular document before he -- he could answer the question.

Page 10209

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't -- I don't see that, Mr. Zivanovic.  This

 2     is more a technical problem than anything else.  If there something in

 3     the -- in -- in -- in the question that warrants the entire document to

 4     be shown, we'll go to that.  But, for the moment, I don't see that.

 5             Please continue, Mr. Stringer.

 6             MR. STRINGER:

 7        Q.   I've gone the math here, Mr. Hadzic, and --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment.  No, I see why we don't have

 9     anything on the English part of the screen.

10             Go ahead, please.

11             MR. STRINGER:  They didn't translate the entire -- we do have an

12     English version of the chart with the columns, if Your Honours would like

13     to see that.  But just names what are the different nationalities --

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

15             MR. STRINGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, can we agree to this:  Out of a total 54.265 people

17     in that municipality, only 13.851, which by my math is about 25 percent,

18     are Serb people.  I should say, clarify that, people who declare

19     themselves to be Serb.  Twenty-five percent of those living in

20     Beli Manastir are people who declare themselves to be Serb.  True?

21        A.   According to the 1991 census, yes, that is the part that declared

22     themselves as such, if the manipulation hadn't already taken place,

23     because the Croatian Democratic Union had already come into power when

24     the census was conducted.

25        Q.   So that --

Page 10210

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, he didn't say the word "Croats."  So it

 3     should -- maybe he -- he should repeat his answer.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you, Mr. Hadzic.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said that the

 6     Croatian Democratic Union had already taken power by then.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   Are you suggesting that -- well, let me put it this way,

10     Mr. Hadzic, just to stay on my question.  Beli Manastir, the municipality

11     then that you're asserting was going to be in your Serb District is a

12     place in which Serbs, people who declared themselves to be Serbs,

13     constituted only 25 percent of the population.  Is that true?

14        A.   Yes, you can see that from this census.  But I don't know if it

15     was actually so.

16        Q.   Well, the fact is no matter how you start drawing lines, it's not

17     going to result in there being a Beli Manastir municipality that's going

18     to be a majority Serb; correct?  The fact is the Serbs were a distinct

19     minority in that particular area of the SBWS.  Can we agree on that?

20        A.   I don't agree that they were a distinct minority, but they were

21     there in the percentage that you referred to, if the census is correct.

22        Q.   And we could scroll down this page we're seeing and look at

23     Osijek.

24             According to my calculations, those declaring themselves Serbs in

25     Osijek municipality are in about 20 per cent of the total population.

Page 10211

 1     Does that sound about right to you?

 2        A.   I didn't really deal with these things, but it could be like

 3     that, approximately.

 4        Q.   And just so we're clear because we know that as of the

 5     22nd of November, 1991, the Croats, the Croatian side, was still in

 6     control of the Osijek town, and the confrontation line actually fell

 7     somewhere south of the town, between Osijek and Vukovar.  So the Serb

 8     side, the Yugoslav side as you put it, did not control Osijek town as of

 9     the date of this Law on Territorial Organisation; correct?

10        A.   The law that you are referring to had in its title that it was a

11     provisional, temporary law.  The Croatian side was in control of Osijek

12     before, always, even now.

13        Q.   But we could go back to the law and look at the page on Osijek,

14     and what we're going to see is that in fact the town of Osijek itself is

15     among the places that is going to be a part of the SBWS district;

16     correct?

17        A.   I didn't understand it that way.  It was written in the former

18     SFRY and in former Croatia.  All the municipalities were copied from

19     there including the municipal seat, the town, and all the villages are

20     written there which were not even near the area.

21             MR. STRINGER:  We can break here, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

23             Court adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

Page 10212

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Could I have just one moment, Mr. President.  I've

 3     got a technical problem.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, before we move ahead, I want to give you a -- an

 5     opportunity to respond to something that your counsel raised in one of

 6     his objections because I don't want you to feel like we're being unfair

 7     to you.  And this relates to the Yugoslav group on the census.  So we

 8     could take a moment to look at those numbers as well.

 9             I see you have something to say.

10        A.   I'm not receiving interpretation.

11        Q.   Can you hear me now?

12        A.   Yes, it is okay now.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Did you get the interpretation of my comments just a moment ago?

14        A.   I did.  Please go on.

15        Q.   If we could -- we're still with Exhibit P1776, the census, which

16     was tab 394, and you mentioned this in your direct examination and just

17     so that the Chamber can see what you're referring to.  We could now go to

18     page 27 of the exhibit, which as we all can see now continues at the top

19     with column number 15.  And so this is a continuation out to the right of

20     the heading at the top of the previous page.  So here on this page we see

21     more groups referred to, in terms of those declaring their nationality,

22     starting with Germans, Poles, and moving out to column number 29, which

23     relates to Yugoslavs, that as being people who did not declare their

24     nationality.

25             Is that the group that you have referred to when we talk about

Page 10213

 1     the demographic data, Mr. Hadzic, is the Yugoslavs there in column 29?

 2     A.   It was my counsel's objection.  That's probably what he had in mind.

 3        Q.   In your direct examination, actually, I think you asserted that

 4     if you add the number of Yugoslavs to the number of Serbs who resided in

 5     Vukovar, then that would put you at 50 per cent, so that's why I'm

 6     raising it with you directly.

 7        A.   Yes, I remember having said so.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So just moving back one page to 26, again, looking at

 9     Beli Manastir and the number there, a total of 54.265.  That's total

10     people who declared and people who did not declare themselves.  22.700

11     Croats; 13.800 Serbs; 8.900 Hungarians.  And then moving to the right, we

12     see that this is row number 13.  And then if we move now to page 28 of

13     this document for the continuation, and if we continue to follow row 13

14     across to the Yugoslav column, then we can see how many Yugoslavs, or

15     people are as down as Yugoslavs, from Beli Manastir.

16  So applying this to Beli Manastir, Mr. Hadzic, would you agree with me that,

17    according to the 1991 census, there were 4.265 Yugoslavs in Beli Manastir?

18        A.   That's what it says, if we are looking at the right column and if

19     the census data is correct.

20             I have to say something for the sake of truth.  This census took

21     place before the 22nd of November, 1991, when the decision was drafted,

22     the temporary proposal of the assembly decision.

23             On the 22nd of November, almost all of the towns in our environs

24     were emptied of Serbs basically.  If you remember Dzakula's statement, he

25     said that 174 villages were not only emptied of people but destroyed, and

Page 10214

 1     most of those people went to the other side independent of me or the

 2     government.  And especially the towns of Podgorska Slatina, Daruvar,

 3     Pakrac, Pozega, those towns were completely emptied of Serbs.  If we are to

 4     look at these figures objectively, one needs to bear that in mind.  The

 5     figure would be zero in such columns which depict the number of Serbs in

 6     those towns, where now there are 5,000, 6,000 or 10,000 Serbs, on 22

 7     November there were zero Serbs there, and especially in Zagreb there were

 8     also no Serbs left.  I'm not saying anything against or for it, but just

 9     bear that in mind.  It was a temporary decision. And in 1995, the houses

10     were still preserved and the Croats could return, and most of them did

11     return to their homes, as opposed to the Serbs who have never returned

12     to Croatian territory to this day.

13        Q.   Now, looking at this decision you've just referred to, the

14     decision on the territorial organisation, page 90 of the English, and we

15     touched on this just briefly before the break but I want to come back to

16     it now.  We're seeing here now Osijek and the towns within the Osijek

17     municipality that are following within the -- sorry.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Let me give you an exhibit number.  It's -- it's

19     L1, tab 388, page 90 of the English, and 31 of the B/C/S.

20        Q.   So here we see Osijek municipality under item number 5.  But if

21     you move down alphabetically, we see that actually Osijek, the town

22     itself, is falling within the terms of this law, but as of 22nd November,

23     the date of this law, Mr. Hadzic, Osijek actually was still in the hands

24     of the Croatian side; correct?

25     A. I've already answered that a few minutes before the last break. It was

Page 10215

 1     in the hands of the Croatian side at the time, before that, and even now.

 2        Q.   And so what this means is that as of the 22nd of November, 1991,

 3     it was the position of the SBWS government that Osijek was not yet --

 4     although Osijek was not yet in your control, it was your intention, or

 5     the intention of those on the Serbian side, to take Osijek.  This is the

 6     territorial aspiration, in other words; correct?  You were not finished

 7     because you had no taken Osijek?

 8        A.   No, it wasn't so.

 9        Q.   So it's --

10        A.   Let me correct something.  In line 25 of the previous page, you

11     said Law on Territorial Organisation but it was a Law on Provisional

12     Territorial Organisation.

13        Q.   And what was intended is that Osijek, when it was liberated as

14     you would put it, would itself fall within the terms of this law until an

15     overall settlement would be reached with Croatia for the permanent

16     setting of the borders.  Is that was -- is that what the intention was?

17        A.   Personally I never heard anyone who was serious enough say that

18     Osijek had to be attacked, liberated, or taken, as you put it.  I

19     disagree with that.  They simply included the entire five municipalities

20     of the former Socialist Republic of Croatia, Vinkovci, Osijek and Vukovar

21     included.  Only the municipality of Vukovar and Beli Manastir were

22     completely in the hands of the district.  Osijek was, of course, not.

23        Q.   You just said here, Mr. Hadzic, that you personally never heard

24     anyone who was serious enough to say that Osijek had to be attacked,

25     liberated, or taken.

Page 10216

 1             MR. STRINGER:  If we could now move to tab 1048, P1079.  It's a

 2     video and we will be asking for the interpretation.  So we'll wait for

 3     them.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan:  Well,

 7     it happened four days ago when we were liberated Borovo Naselje, my

 8     units, and I got the sniper.

 9             "The reporter:  Is it a serious wound?

10             "Arkan:  No, it is a light wound and I returned to the front line

11     immediately so I have not even been absent from the front line.

12             "The reporter:  There is a hole in the gun as well?

13             "Arkan:  Yes, this is the hole.  This is how it was.  There's a

14     hole, that is the small calibre sniper.  It is over and forgotten now.

15             "The reporter:  What next?

16             "Arkan:  Well, we go on.  We go to Osijek.  Osijek."

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you remember the video?  We've played it a lot

19     during the trial of when you and others were at the Velepromet facility

20     on the 20th of November just after the meeting.  Do you remember that

21     video?

22        A.   I remember being at Velepromet and that there was a private

23     camera.

24        Q.   Do you remember the -- the footage that's been shown that shows

25     you, Arkan, other people standing around at Velepromet on the 20th?

Page 10217

 1        A.   In the yard of the Velepromet, yes.

 2        Q.   And do you remember that Arkan was wounded at that time?  He had

 3     this bandage on his hand at that time.  Do you remember him being

 4     wounded, as is indicated in this video we just saw?

 5        A.   I saw it here, but I don't recall the other footage.  I wasn't

 6     paying attention.

 7        Q.   In any event, you said you weren't aware of anyone advocating

 8     taking or liberating Osijek.  What this shows is in fact at least one

 9     person was doing that, and that was Arkan, wasn't it?

10        A.   I know very well what I said, and I will repeat:  I said that I

11     did not hear of anyone serious enough who was for it, and I did hear

12     hundreds of fools saying that we need to go, I don't even know where.  It

13     wasn't only Arkan.  There were people causing trouble in the street.

14     There were always people around having such suggestions to make.

15        Q.   Now coming back again, if we could move back to the Law on

16     Temporary -- Temporary Territorial Organisation.  We were looking at the

17     places.  And you had just mentioned the other municipalities a moment ago

18     before we -- we played the video.  Vinkovci was one of those, I believe.

19     You said they simply included the entire five municipalities of the

20     former socialist -- Vinkovci, Osijek and Vukovar included.

21        A.   That was a mistake.  I had four in mind:  Beli Manastir,

22     Vinkovci, Vukovar, and Osijek.

23        Q.   That's what I wanted to ask you about that, just to get that

24     clarified.  Vinkovci, Osijek, Vukovar, and Beli Manastir would be the

25     four that you're -- envisioned would be a part of the SBWS?

Page 10218

 1        A.   Well, you shouldn't say that it was what I envisaged.  It was the

 2     assembly that envisaged the temporary organisation.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that the answer of the witness was not

 5     translated correctly.  He could repeat his answer.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you, Mr. Hadzic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said when you say "you," you

 8     probably don't mean me personally.  It was an assembly decision.

 9             MR. STRINGER:

10        Q.   I would assume that you endorsed this decision, since it went to

11     the assembly after having been raised by your justice minister, Mr. Susa,

12     during your government meeting on the 19th, however; correct?

13        A.   The government voted on it, and I was only one vote.  It was a

14     matter of form.  It was to -- to be a temporary solution, leaving the

15     right to decide in the hands of the people.  And I don't think, as you

16     believe, that all non-Serbs did not wish to stay in Yugoslavia.  I don't

17     think that is true because many people who lived in that country believed

18     it to be a good country.

19        Q.   Now, Beli Manastir in the law document that we have, page 87 of

20     the English -- Mr. Hadzic, do you see it on the screen in front of you?

21        A.   I do.

22             MR. STRINGER:  We're not seeing it over here, Mr. President.  I

23     don't -- now it's up.  Okay.

24        Q.   Just keeping this in mind, a couple of the places within the

25     municipality, for example, this place called Baranjsko Petrovo Selo; do

Page 10219

 1     you see that?

 2        A.   It is the first one on the list just below Beli Manastir.

 3        Q.   And there's a Bilje.  That's at the bottom in the municipality.

 4        A.   I see it.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Just keeping those two in mind as an example, I'd like to

 6     now move back to 1776, the census, tab 394, and what I'm getting at here,

 7     Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to put to you, you've talked about how, if I may

 8     put it this way, the municipalities or the demographic composition was

 9     manipulated by the Croatian authorities.  What I'm going to put to you

10     here is that the fact is you had individuals of both ethnicities living

11     in the smaller towns and villages and it's simply where they lived.

12             MR. STRINGER:  If we could go to e-court page 34 -- sorry.

13     03443199.  The e-court page is the ERN number.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Chamber but I

15     did not say that the census was a consequence of manipulation.  I said

16     that there was a possibility of manipulation but I do not have

17     information that would confirm any manipulation.

18             MR. STRINGER:  I could assist the Registrar.  If you're in

19     e-court and you click on the drop-down menu that gives the page number of

20     the document and then scroll down toward the bottom of the census, you'll

21     start seeing ERN numbers as the actual e-court page number, and that's

22     what I'm referring to.

23             Well, can you find -- sorry.  Can the Registrar find it with the

24     ERN -- just referring to the document by ERN number 34 -- 03448199.

25     Thank you.

Page 10220

 1        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you recognise this?  This is one of those -- the

 2     charts that is attached to the back of the census?

 3        A.   I recognise that.

 4        Q.   And what these do is for each municipality, they give the

 5     breakdown in terms of the ethnic composition of the settlements, towns,

 6     within the municipality.  And so I'm coming to this because if you look

 7     at the two places we just spoke about, Baranjsko Petrovo Selo, which is

 8     just west of Beli Manastir, the town, we see that's a red place.  That's

 9     a Croat town.  Down toward the bottom of the municipality, Bilje, is also

10     a red spot.  And would you agree with me, Mr. Hadzic, that if we went

11     through all the towns in the municipalities here in this temporary law, a

12     good many of them, quite possibly the majority of them, would be red

13     places, red because that's where the Croatian population was in the

14     majority?

15        A.   I could agree that it was so at the time of the census.  But the

16     government I presided over had not provoked the Croatian side to attack

17     Western Slavonia and empty it completely.  All those people went to the

18     eastern part of Slavonia.  I had no influence over that.

19        Q.   And if we could move to the chart for Osijek, that's at page

20     0344825A.  We can again see the relative ethnicities of the places in

21     that municipality.

22             And just so we know as indicated in the upper left hand of the

23     chart, Mr. Hadzic, a solid circle indicates an absolute majority,

24     whereas, one that is not a solid circle but is just a coloured circle

25     indicates a relative majority; do you see that?

Page 10221

 1        A.   I see it.

 2        Q.   So what that would mean, for example, is that Osijek town is an

 3     absolute majority, whereas off to the south-west, Bresce would be a place

 4     where there was a relative majority of Serbs; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So, again, applying this back to the Law on Temporary Territorial

 7     Organisation, the plan, the aspiration was to extend your laws and your

 8     control, political control, over a place, even Osijek which was just an

 9     overwhelmingly Croatian town; correct?

10        A. Our laws could not be implemented even where we were because it was

11     all the army there.  It was the military administration.  This was a plan

12     for a future peaceful resolution, something to be discussed.  It was not

13     for the law to be implemented.  We couldn't even implement the law in

14     Ilok, never mind Osijek, where we weren't even present.

15        Q.   Well, if we go to 03448295, we can take look at Ilok and

16     Western Srem.

17             Setting aside the fact, as you claim, that Ilok was under

18     military administration, the fact is, sir, that for you to achieve and

19     the SBWS to achieve political control over a place like Ilok, given its

20     absolute Croatian majority, the only way for you to achieve that would be

21     to remove most of the Croatian people who lived there because they were

22     never going to accept it.  Isn't that true?

23        A.   Was that a question?

24        Q.   That's a question.  Is it true that the only way you would have

25     been able to achieve political control over a place like Ilok is by

Page 10222

 1     removing all or most of the Croatian population?

 2        A.   At the end of the presentation of evidence, you had your own

 3     witness who personally admitted that he did that, and I never saw this

 4     person in my life, and I had nothing to do with him.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I'm asking you as essentially the political leader of

 6     Serbs in Croatia, which is what you were at the time, and wasn't it the

 7     policy of your government that it would be necessary to remove all or

 8     most of the Croatian people from places, such as Ilok, in order to

 9     achieve political control over that territory?

10        A.   It was not my policy or the policy of my government.  All we

11     wanted was to remain in Yugoslavia and to achieve our right to

12     self-determination, which we had, pursuant to promises of some

13     ambassadors of the United Nations.

14             MR. STRINGER:  And if we could please return to L1, tab 388, back

15     to the Law on Temporary Territorial Organisation.  Page 91 of the

16     English.  And it should be approximately page 32 of the B/C/S.  I want to

17     go to Article 14, Article 14 of this law.

18        Q.   Do you have that, Mr. Hadzic?

19        A.   Yes.  I would just like to correct in line 24, I meant some

20     ambassadors of countries of the United Nations.  I apologise.

21        Q.   Here in Article 14 we have the administration -- the provision

22     that says:

23             "The administrative organ of the municipality is the

24     Executive Council of the municipality, which is assigned by the

25     government of the Serb District."

Page 10223

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Before the last break, you indicated that because of the

 3     situation, the conflict, et cetera, the Executive Council of the

 4     municipality would serve essentially as its government until there could

 5     be elections and the formation of a -- a normal government.  Is that an

 6     acceptable way of putting it?

 7        A.   You understood me correctly, yes.

 8        Q.   And then moving to Article 2 -- excuse me, 22.  This provides

 9     that:

10             "The administrative organ of a municipality is the

11     Executive Council of the municipality, which is appointed by the

12     Serb District government.

13             "The president and six members of the Executive Council of the

14     municipality are appointed by the decision of the government of the

15     Serb District, which also passes more specific documents regarding their

16     work."

17             Mr. Hadzic, my question is whether you recall actually exercising

18     this authority in your capacity as prime minister, the appointment of

19     people to Executive Councils?

20        A.   I didn't have that authority.  That authority lay with the

21     government.

22        Q.   Did you sign off on government decisions to appoint people to the

23     Executive Council of municipalities?

24        A.   Well, this is a different question.  I signed government

25     decisions adopted by the government, but they could also have been signed

Page 10224

 1     by the vice-president if I was away.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have tab 363, which is L53.

 3        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a decision on organising and the way of work

 4     of municipal Executive Council, and it is dated 3rd of December, 1991.

 5             Do you recall this document?  Do you recall this law?

 6        A.   I do, yes.  I remember this decision.

 7        Q.   I'm looking at the bottom.  It appears that it is a decision of

 8     the government that you then signed off on as the president of the

 9     government.

10        A.   Well, I don't see anything of dispute here.  If I signed it, yes,

11     it's correct.

12        Q.   And in Article 2 it says that:

13             "Within the rights and duties of a municipality, the

14     Executive Council answers to the government for the situation in all

15     areas of social life as well as for the application of the established

16     policy, regulations, and general legal document of the National Assembly

17     that direct and co-ordinate the work of municipal... bodies."

18             So by appointing people to these municipal Executive Councils and

19     by having the Executive Council answer to the government, then what this

20     did, Mr. Hadzic, was to ensure that SBWS government policy could now be

21     applied throughout the municipalities through the municipal council -- or

22     excuse me, through the Executive Councils.  Is that what was intended

23     here as the structure?

24        A.   That is how it should have been, so it's some sort of

25     conditional.  If conditions are created, then that is how it was supposed

Page 10225

 1     to be.

 2        Q.   And then moving to page 2 of the English, Article 10.  In this

 3     section of the law, we have the relationship of the Executive Council and

 4     the government.  And then in Article 10 it says that:

 5             "The Executive Council has to inform the government about the

 6     conduct of the policy that the Executive Council has set ..."

 7             And it continues on.

 8             And then in Article 12:

 9             "Executive Council must act in accordance with the government

10     directions and conclusions passed with regards to the consideration of

11     issues that refer to the work of the Executive Council and especially in

12     relation to the application of the established government policy, law,

13     and other regulations," et cetera.

14             Now, Mr. Hadzic, again, this tell us, does it not, that the

15     Executive Councils were subordinate to the government and the government

16     policy and that they were there to actually ensure that government policy

17     was applied at the municipal level?

18        A.   Well, I assume that that's how it was supposed to be.

19             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have tab 411, L57.  Page 73 of

20     the English, 16 of the B/C/S.

21        Q.   And now here we see -- referring to a session held on the

22     28th of November, 1991, six days after adoption of the Law on the

23     Provisional Territorial Organisation, which is also referred to in the

24     preamble here, pursuant to that law what's happening here is that the

25     government is appointing a gentleman named Boro Zivanovic of

Page 10226

 1     Beli Manastir to be the chairman of the Executive Council.  Do you see

 2     that?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Do you recall signing off on the appointment of Mr. Zivanovic to

 5     this position?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   And you did this in Dalj on the 3rd of December?

 8        A.   No, I did it in Erdut.  However, the document was drafted in

 9     Dalj.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 282, Exhibit P02161.

11        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a decision published in the Official Gazette

12     of the Beli Manastir municipality from the 18th of October, 1991.  So

13     it's before the date of your appointment of Mr. Zivanovic to the chair of

14     the Executive Council.  But I did want to talk a little about his

15     activities prior to the time you appointed him to that position.  This

16     is --

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we move to the next page in B/C/S,

18     please, to correspond to the page in English.  Thank you.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Well, I wasn't quite there yet.  I wanted to at

20     least ask Mr. Hadzic if we could agree on the name of this decision

21     before we move to paragraph II.

22        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a decision to change street names in the town

23     of Beli Manastir; do you see that?

24        A.   I do.

25        Q.   And then moving now to the next page of the B/C/S, same page of

Page 10227

 1     the English, we can see a list of about 41 street names that are being

 2     changed.

 3             Can we agree, Mr. Hadzic, that what's essentially happening here

 4     is that street names that bear a more Croatian name are being changed to

 5     street names that bear more of a Serbian name?

 6        A.   I don't agree.  Those people were mostly appointed by the

 7     Communist government during the Communist regime.  There are Croats,

 8     Serbs there, maybe a few more Croats, but there are Serbs too, most of

 9     them are the former Yugoslav leaders appointed by the Communist regime.

10        Q.   And then the new names -- we don't have to look at them all.

11     There are some names there that appear to be more historical Serbian

12     figures.  I see some Serbian duke, some Vojvoda at 14, 15, 16.

13        A.   Those were Vojvodas from the First World War.

14        Q.   And this decision is signed by Mr. Zivanovic.  How long had you

15     known Mr. Zivanovic before you appointed him to the Executive Council on

16     the 3rd of December, 1991?

17        A.   I can't remember.  Perhaps a couple of months.  Maybe even half a

18     year.  But I can't remember.

19        Q.   And he is signing off on these decisions now.  This one is from

20     October 18th, a month to the day, actually, prior to the fall of Vukovar.

21     Can we agree that in Beli Manastir, that municipality, or most of it, was

22     under Serb control from quite an early period?

23        A.   I agree Boro Zivanovic was the president of the Executive Council

24     there even before the government established that.  The government just

25     confirmed the factual situation that had existed as of September.  He

Page 10228

 1     never reported back to us.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  If we could have tab 216, please.  Exhibit 2150A.

 3        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we see here a decision of -- signed off on by

 4     Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic even quite earlier on the 5th of September.  And

 5     this is a decision on the termination of employment of all persons who

 6     openly supported the overthrown regime of the Republic of Croatia.

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   And in Article 1 it says, refers to:

 9             "A termination of employment of all persons who openly supported

10     the overthrown regime and who, if they remain at their place of

11     employment, would disturb the formal work process or irritate other

12     employees which could lead to serious, specific and political problems,

13     regardless of their ethnic or religious affiliations."

14             Mr. Hadzic, were you aware that from early

15     September Mr. Zivanovic was up in Beli Manastir issuing or adopting

16     legislation like this?

17        A.   I wasn't aware of that.  I just told you that he did not report

18     back to us.

19        Q.   So you didn't know any of this about him at that time that you

20     appointed him in December, actually, to be formally the head of the

21     municipal council for Beli Manastir?

22        A.   At that time, I didn't know that.  At that time, the government

23     whose president I was had not been established yet.  They had their

24     president of the municipality before I became prime minister.

25        Q.   Do you agree with legislation like this that he was passing, that


Page 10229

 1     gave them the power to essentially fire people if they might irritate

 2     other employees, if they remain at their place of employment?

 3        A.   Of course I don't agree with that.  I don't know anything about

 4     this.

 5        Q.   The fact is that Mr. Zivanovic here was an extremist and he was

 6     taking advantage of the Serbian control over Beli Manastir to persecute

 7     non-Serbs, Croats, and others who were not accepting of the political

 8     change that was now in place.  Is that true?

 9        A.   I know nothing about that.  I've not seen this before.

10        Q.   He was an extremist.  Can we agree on that?

11        A.   I did not have that information.  However, if he drafted this, I

12     would agree that his way of thinking was rather extremist.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, may we go into private session for

14     the next document.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 10230











11 Pages 10230-10234 redacted. Private session.
















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10   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Court adjourned.

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of July,

25                           2014, at 9.00 a.m.