Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10327

 1                           Monday, 25 August 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             Can we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

15     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton, Case Manager

16     Thomas Laugel, legal intern Marina Marcikic.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell, with

21     Sunna Aevarsdottir, legal intern.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Stringer, please proceed.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]


Page 10328

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 251 which is

 6     Exhibit Number P00196.140.

 7        Q.   While that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, we're going to talk a little

 8     bit more about the issue of housing and how the issue of housing was

 9     treated and who was handling housing in the SBS [sic] during late 1991

10     and early 1992?

11             Mr. Hadzic, this is from Dalj on the 2nd of October, 1991,

12     reflecting the session held on that day in Erdut, a decision on the

13     temporary transfer the assets of the Republic of Croatia and socially

14     owned property to the hands of the Serbian district.  Do you recall this

15     document?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   And did you -- it appears over your name.  Did you, in fact,

18     approve or sign off on this decision in your capacity as prime minister

19     of the SBWS?

20        A.   I don't remember specifically whether I signed this, but I'm

21     familiar with this.  I received these papers when I arrived here.  But

22     it's consistent with what I generally remember, to protect private

23     property in some way.  But I don't specifically remember whether I signed

24     it.

25        Q.   And what you just said was interesting to me.  You said to

Page 10329

 1     protect private property because this decision actually - at least on its

 2     face - refers to assets of the Republic of Croatia and socially owned

 3     property.  My first question is whether this decision would relate to

 4     something like an agricultural enterprise, such as the DP Dalj

 5     co-operative that we've heard about this in case?

 6        A.   Obviously I misspoke when I said to protect private property.  I

 7     meant protecting the property of either the state or a private person.

 8     Because from what I remember and from the information I had at the time,

 9     the only goal was to protect that property.  I was not specifically aware

10     of these things whether it was DP Dalj or some other state-owned company.

11     I just generally supported the idea of protecting this.

12        Q.   You would agree with me, however, that an enterprise like DP Dalj

13     would fall within the scope of this decision?

14        A.   There's no need for me to agree or not agree with you.  I said I

15     was generally in favour of protecting property and this was developed at

16     the level of the ministry.  The Ministry of Agriculture.  I didn't

17     interfere in this.

18        Q.   Right.  I think that actually I will ask you to tell me whether

19     or not you agree with me.  You've -- you've now referred to the Ministry

20     of Agriculture.  We know that the DP Dalj was agricultural enterprise.

21     Was it socially owned?

22        A.   Yes.  Well, you can see from the name itself.  DP, in my

23     language, means socially owned company.

24        Q.   And so, in fact, a socially owned company like DP Dalj would fall

25     within the terms of this decision and therefore come into the hands of

Page 10330

 1     the Serbian district; correct?

 2        A.   I have to look at the decision.  If you give me a moment.

 3             It's clearly written here.  In my view, it didn't apply to

 4     anything specific.  Generally, everything was supposed to be protected

 5     and to become the property of the Serbian district.

 6        Q.   Including DP Dalj.

 7        A.   If you say so.  At that moment, that was not my thinking.

 8        Q.   Well, I'm not the witness.  I'm asking whether you can say it or

 9     not, whether you might be willing to agree with me that, in fact, based

10     on the language here, and based on the status of DP Dalj as a

11     social-owned company, DP Dalj was among the socially owned assets that

12     came into the Serbian district, under this decision.

13             Can you agree with me on that?

14        A.   I've already answered.  At that time, I didn't even know that

15     DP Dalj was a separate specially created company.  This applies to

16     everything.

17        Q.   You didn't know that DP Dalj was a socially owned company in

18     1991?

19        A.   I didn't say I didn't know in 1991.  I didn't know at the time

20     when this decision was prepared.  It was prepared for everything in

21     general.  And it was only in the process of being established.  It didn't

22     start -- it wasn't up and running immediately.

23        Q.   Did housing fall within the terms of this decision as well, the

24     places where people lived?

25        A.   I'm not a lawyer, but looking at this decision, I believe it was

Page 10331

 1     just a temporary transition of the property of the Republic of Croatia

 2     and other socially owned property into the property of the Serbian

 3     district; whereas housing was a matter of private property.  I don't

 4     know - at least I don't remember - of any cases of socially owned

 5     apartments in the territory where we lived, except, of course, in

 6     Vukovar, but Vukovar at this time was not under our control yet.

 7        Q.   Was it the wish of the SBWS government to take temporary control

 8     over housing?  For example, to preserve it during this period of time?

 9        A.   I don't know about this specific period, but all the decisions

10     that we adopted were exclusively temporary.  And the only reason, from

11     the information I had at the time, was to protect property because there

12     was a war going on, there were many people who were outsiders, who were

13     not locals of the area.  There were many attempts of robbery and looting,

14     and this was an attempt to prevent looting and robbery.  At least that's

15     how it was explained to me.  I was not very legally literate in these

16     matters.

17             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have tab 250.  That's

18     Exhibit 195.140.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, this is also dated the 2nd of October.  And it's

20     similar but slightly different from what we just looked at.  This is the

21     decree on the temporary protection of abandoned property.  And if we look

22     at page 2 of the B/C/S version, it appears to me that -- sorry.  Page 3.

23             This document appears over your signature; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   And if we go back then to Article 1, it says that:

Page 10332

 1             "This decree regulates the temporary protection, preservation,

 2     and use of property that, in keeping with the decision by the government

 3     of the Serbian district on [sic] 2nd October ... became the property of

 4     the Serbian District of SBWS, as well as protection, preservation, use of

 5     other abandoned property."

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I see it.  Yes, that's what written here.

 8        Q.   And then in Article 2, it provides that the Ministry of the

 9     War-Time Economy is to make a list of the property in Article 1.  And

10     then it continues on in the subsequent articles to set out how the

11     process of identifying these properties and managing them is to take

12     place.

13             Now, would you agree with me, Mr. Hadzic, then, that under this

14     decree the SBWS government is asserting authority over housing in the

15     district, that is, abandoned housing, houses of people who are no longer

16     living there?

17        A.   Well, I can't agree with this phrasing.  I can say that it was an

18     attempt by the government to establish its governance.  It was a

19     unilateral decision of the government, but there were many other

20     conditions on which this decision and its enforcement depended because

21     the government did not have any influence on the army, the Yugoslav

22     People's Army that was there, and we had no levers of enforcement.  This

23     was an attempt to protect the property that was being looted by some

24     people whom I didn't know and who -- whom we were unable to prosecute.

25        Q.   Well, wasn't it also an attempt - and I'm not suggesting

Page 10333

 1     necessarily that -- that there's anything wrong about it - at one level,

 2     isn't this an attempt simply to regulate managing all of this abandoned

 3     housing, keep track of what's there?  And then we can look at Article 10.

 4     But before we do, just to follow up and ask:  Isn't this an attempt by

 5     the government to establish a way to regulate and keep track of abandoned

 6     housing in the district?

 7        A.   I have to be honest.  The government did not have either the wish

 8     or the power to control these processes.  The only thing we wanted at the

 9     time was to protect that property.

10        Q.   Well, let's look at Article 8 first because this talks about the

11     Ministry of Justice and Administration shall appoint a commission

12     consisting of at least three members.  And as it says here, that

13     commission is to implement the procedure for the protection of property

14     owned by citizens in the liberated territory.

15             Do you see that?

16        A.   I see that.

17        Q.   First question is:  Who are the citizens?  Serbs and Croats

18     alike, as well as Hungarians, Slovaks, all the other ethnicities living

19     in the district?

20        A.   Well, it goes without saying that it applies to all citizens.  We

21     did not make any distinction by nationality.  It means all those who

22     abandoned their property as well as the citizens who remained behind.

23     They were all equal citizens, as far as I'm concerned.

24        Q.   Throughout the trial, Mr. Hadzic, we've heard a lot of evidence

25     about non-Serbs who were expelled from the district during late 1991,

Page 10334

 1     1992 and beyond.  This decree, it applies to the houses of non-Serbs who

 2     were expelled; correct?

 3        A.   Well, I cannot agree with that understanding.  I don't see it

 4     that way, and what I believe you just said is not correct.  This is the

 5     2nd of October, the beginning of a real war, both Serbs and Croats were

 6     leaving their houses to flee from the war and, of course, Croats were

 7     perhaps leaving in larger numbers, but there were also a lot of Serbs who

 8     left for Serbia, some even for Croatia.  So this decision dated

 9     2nd of October applies to all citizens.  Nobody was driving them out.

10     They were trying to flee from the war.

11        Q.   Do you deny that non-Serbs were being driven out of the district

12     by the 2nd of October, 1991?  You deny that unequivocally?

13        A.   I'm neither confirming nor denying.  At that time, I was not

14     aware that anyone was being driven out.  Anyone who wanted to stay,

15     stayed.  Those who wanted to leave were leaving.  There was one case

16     later that I heard about in Dalj.  Croats had prepared some sort of boat

17     for people who wanted to leave and they took that boat.  But the very

18     fact that people were leaving their homes was tragic.  But, at that time,

19     I did not have any information that anybody was expelling anyone.

20        Q.   The Ministry of Justice and Administration that's referred to

21     here in Article 8, that's the ministry whose head was Mr. Susa?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So his job was, then, to appoint this commission of three people

24     who would implement the procedure?  Mr. Susa was responsible for this?

25        A.   I don't know right now whether it was Susa or not.  The Ministry

Page 10335

 1     of War-Time Economy was mentioned here.  I didn't know.  I don't know

 2     when I was signing this document.  But he will certainly come here and

 3     we'll be able to ask him.

 4        Q.   And then in Article 10, it says that:

 5             "Property abandoned by citizens may not be transferred to new

 6     owners," I'll skip some words, "unless this is done by the owner and is

 7     to his advantage."

 8             "This may also temporarily be done so as to satisfy the defence

 9     needs of the district or when it is in the general interest of the

10     district and its individual parts."

11             Mr. Hadzic, was it under this provision, then, that the

12     government approved Serbs from elsewhere, such as Western Slavonia, to

13     come and to live in the houses abandoned by non-Serbs?

14        A.   I don't see the connection between this decision and the arrival

15     of Serbs from Western Slavonia.  I'm not sure I even knew or whether the

16     Serbs from Western Slavonia were already coming at the time.  This

17     decision was meant to protect property, and all the legal assumptions

18     mentioned here are something that I see for the first time.  I never

19     thought about it before, or dealt with it.

20        Q.   Well, given the fact that prior to the conflict Serbs did not

21     constitute a majority in any of the municipalities of your district, it

22     was in the interest of the district to bring in Serbs or to accommodate

23     Serbs from elsewhere inside the district; isn't that true?

24        A.   That's not only not true, but it's this kind of thinking that I

25     wouldn't deign to consider if I were not sitting here.  At that time, it

Page 10336

 1     didn't cross my mind that somebody, some Serbs would come from another

 2     territory and move in there.  All we wanted was to stay as a part of

 3     Yugoslavia.  I never thought about that in the least.  At least I

 4     personally never thought that way.

 5        Q.   Before the recess, Mr. Hadzic, and I know it's been several weeks

 6     now since we were having this conversation, I showed you a lot of

 7     statements, I suggest, in which you were talking about Serbs coming from

 8     other parts of Croatia.  We don't need to go back all through that again,

 9     do we?

10        A.   We are talking about the 2nd of October.  I don't remember that

11     the Serbs from Croatia had already started arriving at that time.  You

12     just took my statements out of context and I was only responding to what

13     the Croatian side was saying.  And of course, now I'm not a position to

14     show you exactly what I was answering, which Croatian statements.  At

15     that time I didn't have the resources or possibility to enforce any of

16     this.  I just made political statements.  Our territory was in the

17     process of being established, journalists were asking me questions, and I

18     answered.

19        Q.   You've said this a few times, Mr. Hadzic, and I want to follow up

20     on it.  You just said:  "I just made political statements."

21             I think from before you said that your statements about the

22     Western Herzegovinians from the post-World War -- or from the

23     World War II period, those were political statements.  You've said this

24     elsewhere as well.  What do you mean by that, when you say it's a

25     political statement?

Page 10337

 1        A.   I'll explain it.  At that time, Stipe Mesic was a member of the

 2     Presidency and he returned from Belgrade once and said:  I accomplished

 3     my mission.  Yugoslavia is no more.  And the Serbians who want to leave

 4     Croatia but they can take with them only a lump of earth that they

 5     brought on their shoes when they had come in the first place.  Stipe

 6     Mesic at the time, together with Tudjman, controlled the army and had

 7     power.  At that time I was making what I call political statements

 8     because I had no means of implementing or enforcing anything.  I was

 9     talking about Western Herzegovinians.  Perhaps -- these were just mere

10     words, declarations.

11             There were many people in my village from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12     One of them even had his son in the army and still he had no problems.

13     Luka Sutalo was a typical example of those Croats from Western

14     Herzegovina who had been in the war, and I never thought he should be in

15     any trouble because of me.  Those were empty words.  It's perhaps better

16     to put it that way than to call it a political statement.

17        Q.   So they're things you were saying that you didn't believe at the

18     time personally?

19        A.   I was responding to Croatian provocations in the same tone.  I

20     was not going around asking people who was born where.  Anybody who

21     wanted to stay with us was able to stay.  You can see that even now.

22     It's clear.

23        Q.   So when you say "political statements," what you're telling us is

24     that you were saying things that you didn't actually believe yourself.

25     This was just for public consumption?

Page 10338

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, why not?  You can call it that way.  Perhaps a better

 2     description would be empty words.  Meaningless stories.  It's better to

 3     call it that way than to call it political statement.

 4        Q.   Well, the fact is your political statements had a profound impact

 5     on the events that were taking place at that time; isn't that true?

 6        A.   That's not true.  First of all, I was giving those political

 7     statements in Belgrade and nobody was able to see it in Slavonia and

 8     Baranja because there was no electricity and nobody was able to see it.

 9             Second, the press that published it was not read by anyone in

10     Slavonia and Baranja because people didn't read newspapers.  It was just

11     for the broader public in Croatia.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 2, which is 1D00003.

13        Q.   This is an article from Novosti on the 7th of November, 1991,

14     Mr. Hadzic.  The title is:  "Accommodation Provided."  And we can blow

15     this up for you if it would assist you to read the original language

16     version.

17        A.   Could we zoom in on the bottom part?

18             This is from the 7th of November.  It's more than a month after

19     the document we discussed a couple of minutes ago.  And it refers to

20     temporary accommodation.

21        Q.   Right.  And so what's happening here, as you've pointed out, this

22     is the 7th of November.  A moment ago we were talking about the decrees

23     of the 2nd of October, so this is about a month or so later.

24             Here now you are actually going public and calling upon displaced

25     Serbs to come and temporarily settle in SBWS.  You do agree that this is

Page 10339

 1     a statement that you made?

 2        A.   I agree.  But it's a humanitarian issue, not a political one.

 3     These people had their houses destroyed in Croatia.  This is also the

 4     territory of Croatia, except it's in the east not the west.  Were they

 5     people supposed to be without a roof over their heads or were we supposed

 6     to give them some temporary accommodation?

 7        Q.   Now here it indicates that according to the statement that was

 8     received by this press agency, Tanjug, it said:

 9             "Everyone who is interested should apply with the

10     Executive Councils of local communes and the Ministry for Housing,

11     Public Utilities, Reconstruction, temporarily based in Erdut."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   I see.

14        Q.   Now, is that how it was actually handled?  People who wanted to

15     come into abandoned housing in the SBWS -- or I should say assignment of

16     housing was within the government structures to be handled by

17     Executive Councils and this Ministry for Housing.  Is that how it was

18     done?

19        A.   No, that was not the process.  I neither saw nor heard anybody

20     coming in response to this invitation from the ministry in Erdut.  I

21     don't even know who made this appeal.  And from the evidence you led so

22     far, we saw who established the councils in local communities and who

23     implemented this, bypassing the government.  This has nothing to do with

24     the government.  We perhaps only tried to put some order into all -- all

25     of this, but nobody addressed the government on these matters.

Page 10340

 1        Q.   And the evidence we led on this was that, for example, in

 2     Beli Manastir, it was Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic who was head of the

 3     Executive Council, and then later on in SBWS and in the Erdut area

 4     actually it was Mr. Ilic.  Correct?  Those are two of the people we

 5     discussed?

 6        A.   I didn't mean the two of them but now I'm going to talk about the

 7     two of them.

 8             As for what we discussed, that had to do with the Ilok and where

 9     the refugees were put in Western Srem, this was done by the JNA.  That's

10     what I meant.  But now that you mention Mr. Zivanovic and Baranja, you

11     have to know that the municipal assembly in Baranja was established

12     before the government was established.  And Zivanovic was president of

13     the municipal assembly, and they had their own laws and regulations and

14     they worked on that basis apart from the government.  And it was only

15     later that Milovanovic [as interpreted] was elected - I think it was the

16     end of 1991 - president of the municipality of Dalj, and only in the

17     spring of 1992 that he was elected president of Slavonia, Baranja, and

18     Western Srem, when I became the president of the Serb Republic of the

19     Krajina.

20        Q.   We have at page 14, line 6, Mr. Hadzic, it indicates -- we see

21     the name "Milovanovic."  I wonder whether you were actually referring to

22     Mr. Milan Ilic there.

23        A.   I mentioned two names:  Boro Zivanovic and Milan Ilic.  I just

24     have to look at the context to see whether this is Beli Manastir or Dalj.

25             Yes, yes.  This is Milan Ilic.

Page 10341

 1        Q.   We talked about that before and I don't want go back into that

 2     now.  But let's talk again about Mr. Zivanovic a little bit and what was

 3     happening in his area on assigning of housing.  This would be --

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Before I do that, Mr. President, I would tender

 5     this exhibit, which is 1D00003.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3222, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  So, again, this is tab 225, P02163.

10        Q.   As this is coming up, Mr. Hadzic, I can just tell you, this is a

11     decision over -- this is from the Beli Manastir Gazette.  It's a decision

12     of Borivoje Zivanovic on appointing a commission to assign flats, houses

13     for temporary use.

14             Now, it's item number 66 in the -- in the gazette, I believe.

15             Now, what you've just said, Mr. Hadzic, I'll agree with you,

16     Mr. Zivanovic was a little bit ahead of the curve, as we say in my

17     language.  He was taking this authority early on, this is

18     14th of September, 1991, even before the SBWS government was officially

19     in existence; right?

20        A.   Yes, that is right.

21        Q.   And it was only subsequent, later, I think it was in November in

22     which he was appointed to be the head of the Executive Council for

23     Beli Manastir.  We looked at that decision before.

24        A.   Yes, he was confirmed by the government then but he was already

25     that he been elected by the Municipal Assembly of Beli Manastir,

Page 10342

 1     independently of the government.

 2        Q.   And so then can we agree that, in fact, Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic

 3     and his people, this commission here that he is appointing, are handling

 4     the issue of housing and assigning housing in Beli Manastir?  That's what

 5     they did.

 6        A.   I can agree or disagree with what I see but I'm here to be a

 7     witness about the things that I took part in and that happened and that I

 8     knew about.  I didn't know about any of this.  Nobody informed me about

 9     this, and I never received a copy of this Official Gazette of the

10     Beli Manastir municipality.

11        Q.   There was no significant JNA or military role in Beli Manastir,

12     right, as opposed, say, to Western Srem?  Can we agree on that?

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, could you look on your screen

14     whether we have the decision -- whether this document is the decision we

15     are talking about now?  Because this is about --

16             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise, Mr. President.  Yes, what we're

17     seeing on the English actually begins at the bottom of this page, 66.

18     It's item 66 there which, unfortunately, it appears we do not have

19     page 2.  That's it.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  I see.

21             MR. STRINGER:  This is what I have, Mr. President.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, my last question was whether, in fact, there was no

25     significant JNA or military role in Beli Manastir as opposed to

Page 10343

 1     Western Srem.  What I mean by that is that the local authorities in

 2     Beli Manastir had a great deal more authority and control because,

 3     really, there was not much of a conflict that occurred there.  True?

 4        A.   Well, I didn't have any influence over developments in

 5     Beli Manastir.  And at that time, I wasn't informed about what was going

 6     on, so I don't know how things went in Baranja.  I really don't know.

 7        Q.   You don't know how things went in Baranja in September and

 8     October of 1991?

 9        A.   No, no, no.  Not September and October.  You asked about when the

10     army was there and when there were conflicts there.  I think that was

11     before that.  So I don't know how long the army stayed on and what the

12     situation was like and ...

13             Because these things happened there without me knowing about

14     this.  People were saying, by way of a joke, that there was a three-day

15     war in Baranja, but it was short.  The army was there, there was always

16     this tension.  There was always the possibility of the Croats

17     relaunching ...

18        Q.   When was this three-day war, as best as you can remember?

19        A.   Well, I think -- well, now I really don't know precisely.  But

20     maybe August, beginning of September.  But I think it was August.

21        Q.   Right.  And so by September, which is when this decision is

22     issued, we can agree, can't we, that the local authorities,

23     Mr. Zivanovic, the local civilian authorities, were in control of and

24     able to exercise their government functions in Beli Manastir; correct?

25        A.   Well, it would seem that way on the basis of these papers, but

Page 10344

 1     I'm not sure that they could have done this on their own without

 2     coordinating with the JNA.  Because there was still a war situation there

 3     throughout the territory.  And I know that they had very close relations

 4     with the JNA, specifically Zivanovic and all of these other people who

 5     showed up in Erdut.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1476, P1707.

 7        Q.   Now here we're going to move forward to the 11th of December,

 8     1991, although we're staying with the issue of abandoned property.

 9             This is a document of the 1st Military District Command on

10     resolving a request for use of abandoned property.  And it's referring to

11     requests from certain local officials for making use of abandoned

12     properties and farms.

13             And in paragraph 1, what's ordered here is that:

14             "All such issues should be resolved in co-operation with and at

15     the request of government officials of SO Baranja, Eastern Slavonia,

16     Western Srem ... followed by officials selected by the SO, which is the

17     Serbian district government as well as Serbian district government

18     recognised local organs or [sic] authority."

19             And so by the 11th of December, what we're seeing throughout the

20     area of the 1st Military District, their area of responsibility, is

21     co-operation with local authorities in respect of housing and abandoned

22     housing, in particular; isn't that true?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   In item 3, because the JNA did not want to be associated with

25     issues involving possible abuse of abandoned property, it is also ordered

Page 10345

 1     that local authorities are in charge of managing locally abandoned

 2     properties and it's their obligation to create records, et cetera.  And

 3     it continues to talk about the role envisioned by the local authorities

 4     in making and keeping of records, et cetera.

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I see that.

 7        Q.   And then moving down to item 6:

 8             "Local commands shall honour the municipal assembly decisions,

 9     Executive Council decisions, and decisions made by the government of

10     SO Baranja, Eastern Slavonia, Western Srem regarding handing over, that

11     is, using abandoned properties."

12             So what we see in the evidence, Mr. Hadzic, is, in fact, local

13     authorities and local legislation, district legislation asserting control

14     over the issue while, at the same time, we see the JNA quite keen on

15     co-operating with and ceding this issue to the local authorities.  That's

16     really how it was, isn't it?

17        A.   Of course, that's not right.  And I think that you know that.

18     What we can see here is that the army is just speaking about this by way

19     of declarations.  You have several examples but I'll take only one, say,

20     Ilok.  They didn't even want to talk to us before UNPROFOR came.  There

21     was military government there.  And we see here -- you say "local

22     government."  No, we see that it's the military that is in charge of

23     everything here and that the Town Commands decide on everything and they

24     may accept some decision of the local government.  They just put this on

25     paper.  This is not what you're trying to prove or what you're trying to

Page 10346

 1     say.  It's the exact opposite.  It was Town Commands that did everything

 2     on their own.

 3             I wrote about Ilok, and I asked them to tell us at least what

 4     they took in terms of the socially owned enterprises, cars, accommodation

 5     of refugees.  They didn't even want to deal with that, talking to us.  Up

 6     until March, April, they were in charge.  As for this, I don't know who

 7     they were lying to.  I mean, they never really sent these papers to us.

 8     We never knew about this.  This was their internal communication.  I'm

 9     not even sure that it happened at the time.  But this proves what I've

10     been saying, not what you've been saying.

11        Q.   Well, let's talk about Ilok then.  What you've just said is that

12     the Town Commands decide on everything, they may accept some.  You say

13     that "they didn't even want to talk to us before UNPROFOR came."  That's

14     at line 10 of what you just said.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Let's go to tab 1486, which is P1709.

16        Q.   In fact, there were talks, Mr. Hadzic.  What you said just now is

17     not true.  There were talks.  The JNA was trying to speak to your people,

18     work with your people on this issue in Ilok.

19             This is letter coming from your justice minister, Mr. Susa, from

20     Ilok, on the 29th of December, talking about the commission for

21     organisation and conduct on the operation of moving in and temporary

22     accommodation.  So, in fact, Mr. Hadzic, it would appear that Mr. Susa is

23     acting in the capacity that was envisaged under Article 8, I believe it

24     was, of that decree on abandoned property that we were looking at a few

25     minutes ago, referring to the government's commission.  As he says:  With

Page 10347

 1     the aim to ensure better co-ordination has convened a session to be held

 2     30 December at the castle in Ilok with representatives of the Executive

 3     Council of Vukovar municipality and all settlements in which temporary

 4     accommodation is being carried out.

 5             Now, Executive Council of Vukovar municipality, do you recall

 6     whether Mr. Miroljub Vujovic, who had been the TO commander on the

 7     20th of November, whether he was still on the Executive Council of the

 8     Vukovar municipality at that time?

 9        A.   I don't know.  It was the president of the Executive Board that

10     made these appointments.  But I have to respond to what you said at

11     first, that I said something that was not correct.  No, I'm speaking

12     under oath and everything I said was correct.  When I said that they

13     didn't want to talk to us, I meant in practical terms.  I mean they did

14     speak to us formally but to return cars to us.  They didn't even want to

15     talk about it.  Or, rather, they didn't want to return them, but they

16     could have formally discussed this for 100 years but they didn't want to

17     do anything that we proposed.  And it is that sense that I said that they

18     didn't want to talk or discuss things because they didn't want to do

19     anything for us.  And that is why I said that.  They just kept on talking

20     and talking but meaninglessly and that's what I meant.  Everything I said

21     is correct.

22        Q.   And attached to this letter, this invitation, if I can put it

23     that way, just to -- to finish that off, Mr. Susa says:

24             "We believe that your presence would contribute to, first of all,

25     better detection of problems and ways of resolving them," et cetera.

Page 10348

 1             So he is inviting this colonel to a meeting at Ilok to discuss

 2     housing.  And then he attaches to this letter a lot of data and I want to

 3     ask you about some of the data that's attached to this.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  And in that, Mr. President, we're going to have to

 5     work with the B/C/S version because the English version doesn't -- it has

 6     the tables but it really doesn't contain all the data.  And so just to go

 7     to page 2 of this in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   What this is, Mr. Hadzic, can we agree, is a list of the

 9     residents of Vinkovci and Vukovar municipalities according to the census,

10     1991 census.  Do you see that at the top?

11        A.   That is what is written here.  But I do apologise to you, I don't

12     know what the context is.  I mean, what you read, Susa's letter.  Susa

13     was only for Ilok, and this is for the entire municipality of Vinkovci

14     and Vukovar.  And I don't think that Susa was the one who drew this up,

15     if that is what you were trying to say?

16        Q.   The data that's reflected on here - and I know there's a lot -

17     but what it does is to set out the composition of the population in

18     various settlements.  Is that a correct way of putting it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And so we can see a lot of the settlements are virtually entirely

21     Croat.  99 per cent, 97, 100 per cent.  And then, of course, other

22     settlements have different compositions.

23        A.   Yes, I just have to point something out.  I would like you to

24     know something.  This is the territory of the entire municipality of

25     Vinkovci.  More than half of this territory was not within the

Page 10349

 1     SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Now if we could go to page with the ERN number of

 3     the B/C/S version it's the page ending with 8953.  Right now we're at

 4     8942 so we need to move down about 11 pages.  So we're going to skip

 5     over.  8953.  In the English, it's page -- in e-court, page 14.

 6        Q.   And this has a table.  And what we're seeing on this page, and

 7     the names are written in the Cyrillic text on the left-hand column,

 8     number 2, but let's take, for example, item number 27, Tovarnik.  Is that

 9     Tovarnik we're seeing there in row number 27?

10        A.   Yes.  Tovarnik, yes.

11        Q.   And then moving from left to right, we've got a series of columns

12     that relate to where it says at the top "pre rata" that's before the

13     conflict.  And then the next set of columns, "posle rata," that's

14     post-conflict or war.  Isn't that true, that's what that means?

15        A.   Yes, that's what's written there, but I don't know who drew up

16     this table.  I still don't understand that.

17        Q.   Is this a document of the JNA?  It's come to us from the

18     Serbian -- we can see from the stamp, it's coming from the Serbian

19     Ministry of Defence.

20        A.   I don't doubt that you got that, but I'm just saying that I did

21     not discuss that and none of the government members drew this up.  I

22     cannot testify about it here.  I can just give my opinion here, as if I

23     were some kind of expert, but otherwise I cannot testify about it.  I've

24     never actually seen this document.

25        Q.   What I want to do is to go with you through some of the figures

Page 10350

 1     that are set out here.  Because, for example, staying with Tovarnik, what

 2     we see before the war, pre-war, is that 2050 Croats lived there, or

 3     69 per cent of the population; 890 Serbs, or about 30 per cent.  And then

 4     post-conflict we see about the same number of Serbs, 880, but now the

 5     number of Croats has dropped from 2050 to 150.  In other words, the

 6     majority has now become a minority down to 36.5 per cent.  Do you see

 7     that?

 8        A.   Yes, I see that.  The Croat majority left with the Croatian army

 9     when the JNA came.

10        Q.   Well, we can agree to disagree about the reasons why the Croatian

11     community left.  If we can move out six more columns to the right, out to

12     column number 15.  Now, are you able to tell what you say this column

13     refers to?  This refers to whether there's a local government.  Correct?

14     Has government been formed, yes or no?

15        A.   The JNA wrote "da," "yes," in Cyrillic there.  I can only

16     translate that.

17        Q.   And so -- well, looking at row number 26 which is for Boksic,

18     here it indicates that there is not a local government but that for the

19     other places there is; such as Tovarnik.  Indicates there is a local

20     government here.  Do you see that?

21        A.   I see that it says "no," "ne" Boksic.

22        Q.   And then if we go to the next page, these are more places.

23     Number 16 is Ovcara; 17 is Sotin, for example.

24             Sotin, we see that the composition of this place went from

25     62 per cent Croat pre-war to 9 per cent Croat post-conflict.  We see

Page 10351

 1     there that the Serbian population in Sotin went from 363 people

 2     pre-conflict up to 786 people or 86 per cent of the population there

 3     post-conflict.  And we're not going to go through all of these,

 4     Mr. Hadzic, but what's happening here, isn't it, is that we're seeing

 5     Croats out and Serbs in, the number of Serbs in many of these villages

 6     increasing significantly, thus establishing Serbian majorities in what

 7     had previously been Croat-majority villages and towns.  Isn't that what

 8     this shows?

 9        A.   I've already said that I don't know anything about this table.

10     That's what it shows.  Now, whether this is correct, I don't know.  I

11     have no way of knowing.

12        Q.   But what we're seeing here is a reflection of what you were

13     advocating in the newspaper article that we just looked at, for example,

14     that Serbs from other places, including displaced Serbs - and, of course,

15     we don't dispute that Serbs were being displaced in large numbers from

16     Western Slavonia - but in any event, Serbs from elsewhere are coming in

17     and they're moving into these places in which the Croats and other

18     non-Serbs used to live.  This is just a reflection of what's happening,

19     right?

20        A.   I invited them to come in and move temporarily.  I had the

21     experience of my own village where were there only Serbs.  People moved

22     into Serb houses, not only Croat houses, so it wasn't only Croat houses,

23     but these people had to be put up somewhere.

24        Q.   And, again, on this page, if we move out to column number 15, the

25     question on has government been formed, yes or no, here we see that a

Page 10352

 1     government's been formed in all these places; correct?

 2        A.   To be quite precise, it was the authority established by the

 3     Yugoslav People's Army, as you probably know, and the Trial Chamber now

 4     knows.

 5        Q.   And then moving to the next page, which ends with the ERN number

 6     8955, we see a number of the places that we're all more familiar with in

 7     this trial in the Western Srem region.

 8             Row number 1, we see Ilok; 4.000 Croats down to 850.  54 per cent

 9     of the population down to 13.7.  Sarengrad.  Bapska, 1711 Croats now down

10     to 400.  97 per cent of the population down to 43.  Mohovo, Opatovac,

11     Lovas, similar.  Lovas, 91.9 per cent Croat now post-conflict is, or

12     post-war, down to 12.3 per cent.

13             And again, Mr. Hadzic, for all these places we see that there is

14     a local -- I should say, that a government has been formed.  Do you see

15     that?

16        A.   I see that.

17        Q.   And it's these governments that we're seeing that are handling

18     the issue of housing, accommodating the Serbs, assigning the housing to

19     the incoming Serbs; correct?

20        A.   I don't know that.  I can only suppose because I had no contact

21     with them.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1488, P1710.

23        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, just the previous exhibit started with that letter

24     from Mr. Susa to the colonel inviting them to the meeting in Ilok to talk

25     about housing on the 30th of December.  Now this exhibit is dated the

Page 10353

 1     following day, 31st of December.  Report on the government session, and

 2     this is directed to the 1st Military District Command, civilian affairs.

 3     And here the person writing this whose name is Milos Miljovic, assistant

 4     commander for civil affairs, he refers to the meeting in the first

 5     paragraph of the commission for populating and temporary accommodation.

 6     And then second paragraph he says that the meeting was attended by Deputy

 7     Prime Minister Bogunovic.  Is that Boro Bogunovic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And Minister for Justice and Administration, Vojin Susa.  Member

10     of the Executive Council, municipality, Milorad Visic.  Representatives

11     of TO and Executive Councils of the majority of the local communes of the

12     places that are listed.  And then it continues to say that Mr. Susa

13     opened the meeting by presenting its goal in the introduction.  It says

14     that:

15             "A large number of refugees did not come at the invitation of the

16     government but in an unorganised manner and that it is our duty to

17     receive them and secure accommodation for them in a more organised manner

18     than so far.  He said the government appointed a group led by deputy

19     prime minister."

20             Now, again, the reference to the deputy prime minister here, is

21     that going to be Mr. Bogunovic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And then continuing on the next page:

24             Bogunovic who will deal with this coming task to set up accurate

25     records of temporarily populated persons and solve the issues of food and

Page 10354

 1     medical.

 2             And then continuing at the end of paragraph:

 3             "He says that the Executive Council of Vukovar has been set up

 4     and functioning and that in the future it would co-ordinate these

 5     actions, although at this stage it had to focus on Vukovar itself."

 6             So, in fact, Mr. Hadzic, what we see is by the end of

 7     December certainly, your government is actively engaged in the issue of

 8     managing the housing, accommodating incoming Serbs, and taking control

 9     over the issue, keeping records, et cetera, dealing with food and

10     medical.  True?

11        A.   You did not define that properly.  We don't see that our

12     government was involved on the 30th of December.  On the

13     30th of December, our government was trying to get involved.  This was a

14     first meeting, a first contact, and by that time the JNA had finished

15     everything.  Our first contact was when everything was already over.

16     That was our first attempt to get involved and to help.

17        Q.   And just skipping down a couple of paragraphs, I'd like to ask

18     you about what the government was trying to do.

19             Deputy prime minister said:

20             "We do not know what our goals are here.  We want the structure

21     here to change.  Some people do not understand military administration

22     well?"

23             And the person writing this report says that:

24             "These quotes illustrate that the government wants to change the

25     structure of the population at all costs, even by pushing them under the

Page 10355

 1     impact of artillery in the zone of intense combat activities, while we do

 2     not know what our goal is, can mean that why doesn't the army free the

 3     whole of Slavonia and hand us over authority on a plate.  His support of

 4     immigration even in the zone of intense combat activities did not cease

 5     even after the warning by a representative of the division command that

 6     we did not recommend populating refugees to the west of Tovarnik to spare

 7     them from experiencing exodus twice."

 8             So, Mr. Hadzic, if people in the JNA were hesitating on turning

 9     over, giving free rein to your government people on the issue of housing,

10     it's because, as they concluded, your government didn't actually care

11     about the safety of the people it wanted to bring in, you only cared

12     about changing the ethnic composition.  That's what's being said here,

13     isn't it, and that's how it was?

14        A.   No, that's not how it was, one.  And second, this was written by

15     an organ of the institution which cleansed Croats from Ilok.  They did

16     all that.  And he is writing here, and you are taking him at his word and

17     you are believing this institution in this case, although in other cases,

18     of course, they were not to be believed.  And we have two Prosecution

19     witnesses here, one was not protected, that's Boro Bogunovic, and you

20     could have asked him.  And the second one, who did all this, was

21     protected, so I'm not going to mention his name.  And now I'm supposed to

22     talk about events of the 30th of December when all that was already over

23     and when we got involved for the first time.  And you are believing a JNA

24     colonel, a representative of the institution which did all that.  As for

25     myself, I can really say I know nothing more.

Page 10356

 1        Q.   Well, I'm going to put it to you, sir, that this report was

 2     written by a gentleman who has absolutely no reason to lie in his

 3     reporting to his superiors about the content of the meeting, and he makes

 4     it quite clear that the concerns that they have regarding the safety of

 5     the Serbian population that your government is so desperate to put into

 6     these areas?

 7        A.   Well, I'm testifying here, and I can only say what I know.

 8     Colonel Belic wrote me a letter in a decent tone but very indecently

 9     accusing me that we had done nothing for the refugees, that we had not

10     established the boards that he thought we were supposed to set up, and

11     that we basically did nothing.  And now some other colonel, based on all

12     that was done - and we all know what was done, we know who did it in

13     Ilok, in what way, we know everything - now this man is trying to say

14     that Boro Bogunovic made some statement and we don't even see that Boro

15     said it.  Instead, this colonel is giving us his conclusions about

16     Boro -- about what Boro thought about sending people to the front line.

17     We could not direct people to go where we liked.  They went where they

18     wanted.  When I say "we," I mean the government.

19             So as for the resettlement in some peripheral areas, first of

20     all, the government had nothing do with it.  I don't believe this

21     colonel, and if you want to believe him, you are free to do so.  I think

22     we should have asked your witness Bogunovic about this.  But when Susa

23     comes, we'll ask him.  I don't see from this that Boro Bogunovic said

24     that people should be resettled at any cost in peripheral areas.  That's

25     the conclusion of this man, this colonel.  But in my eyes, he is neither

Page 10357

 1     an honourable man nor an honest man.

 2        Q.   When you say he is neither honourable or honest, are you talking

 3     about the person that wrote this report, Mr. Milos Miljovic?

 4        A.   Yes, I mean him.  I don't know him personally, that was the first

 5     time I heard of him, but I believe the conclusion he is making here is

 6     completely incorrect.  I have no reason to defend Boro Bogunovic here,

 7     but nowhere in this text do I see that he wanted to send people as

 8     cannon-fodder somewhere.  That was this man's conclusion.  Maybe I'm

 9     wrong.  Maybe I didn't read it very well but I can -- I can read it more

10     carefully now.

11        Q.   Well, it was the policy of the government --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, it is more or less that time --

13     well, no, not more or less, it is.  Would it be convenient?

14             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             We'll adjourn for 30 minutes.  Court adjourned.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, at the beginning of the hearing this

20     morning, I omitted to remind you that you are still under oath, but I'm

21     sure you know, you realise that, as long as you are in this chair, you

22     are under oath and rules being set out stay in force.  Thank you.

23             Mr. Stringer, please proceed.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Could we please have tab 1481, which is Exhibit D30.  00030.

Page 10358

 1        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, just before the break, I believe you referred to an

 2     exchange of correspondence that you had with Colonel Belic of the

 3     Ilok Town Command and so it seemed a good opportunity to discuss this

 4     exchange of letters briefly, which I'd like to do now.  And the first of

 5     these, which is your letter to him, should be coming up.  Do you see that

 6     there?  Do you recognise that as your letter to Colonel Belic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Because -- and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but throughout

 9     your testimony this morning you've been telling us, I believe, that you

10     really weren't involved and you didn't have any knowledge or involvement

11     on the issue of housing.  Here we see that actually as of the

12     23rd of December at least you're becoming directly involved in your

13     capacity as prime minister.  So you were informed of what was happening

14     and you did participate in dealings with the JNA on this issue.  True?

15        A.   I need to explain this because you drew a conclusion that I

16     thought impossible to draw.  When I said I didn't deal with this, I meant

17     the period of the events in Ilok, and at that time, these processes had

18     already finished.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would suggest that Mr. Hadzic

21     repeat his question [sic] because the considerable and the significant

22     part of it was not transcribed.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, repeat his question or --

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, not question, sorry.  His answer.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer -- oh, his answer, okay.

Page 10359

 1             Mr. Hadzic, could you repeat your answer, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to paraphrase because I

 3     can't repeat it exactly as the first time.

 4             I didn't expect that you would draw the conclusion that you drew

 5     because I thought I was quite clear when I said that we didn't deal with

 6     it, meaning the government, namely, the resettlement in Ilok.  We were

 7     not involved when the process was under way.  I believe it's common

 8     knowledge and we see from this date that I only heard about it towards

 9     the end of 1991, December 1991, when all this had already been finished.

10     We were trying to establish civilian authorities there, but even then we

11     were not allowed to.  And as you said yourself, the military government

12     lasted until the beginning of 1992 and the arrival of UNPROFOR.

13             MR. STRINGER:

14        Q.   So can we agree, then, by the end of 1991, you and your

15     government was -- were directly involved then on the issue of housing and

16     accommodation and that you acquired greater responsibility on that issue

17     as time went on?

18        A.   We cannot agree.  Because it was only towards the end of 1991

19     that we tried to get involved, but since there was a military government,

20     they didn't let us and they appointed all the civilian officials there,

21     including directors of enterprises in Ilok, and we had very little

22     influence on it.  At the beginning, almost none.  In fact, I don't know

23     that we had any influence at that time.  I really believe we didn't have

24     any.

25        Q.   On page 2 of your letter here, third paragraph in the English,

Page 10360

 1     you say:

 2             "In an effort to eliminate or at least reduce possible problems

 3     from our side we have appointed the minister of justice, Mr. Susa, as our

 4     representative ..."

 5             So then this being the 23rd of December, we were just before the

 6     break talking about the meeting that Mr. Susa had with them on the

 7     30th of December.  So when Mr. Susa was meeting -- when Mr. Susa,

 8     Mr. Bogunovic were meeting with the JNA on the 30th of December, it was

 9     pursuant to the appointment that you have referred to here in your

10     letter; correct?  He has been given this responsibility.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I believe there's an --

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry.  Mr. Zivanovic.

14             Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I noticed the error in translation in the

16     paragraph just read by Mr. Stringer.  Because the original should be "in

17     an effort to influence on elimination," not "in an effort to eliminate."

18             [Interpretation] I will read out from the original.  "Wishing to

19     exert our influence to eliminate or at least reduce possible problems."

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

21             MR. STRINGER:  It's in the record.  I think to the extent that

22     there may be any difference, I don't think it requires any further

23     clarification, unless Your Honours would like some.

24        Q.   The point -- my point, Mr. Hadzic, is what's indicated here, you,

25     your government has appointed Mr. Susa to take this responsibility, and

Page 10361

 1     that's what he was doing then the following week on the 30th when he met

 2     with the JNA to talk about the housing situation in Ilok; correct?

 3        A.   This was our attempt to have some influence, if possible, because

 4     all this had already been finished at the end of 1991.

 5        Q.   And then you go on to talk about how you're hoping anyway to get

 6     your minister of finance involved, giving him - this is skipping down a

 7     paragraph - "an opportunity to check the situation and flow of funds on

 8     transfer accounts ..."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   I have to find it, but I remember.  That seems to have been the

11     main problem for them.

12        Q.   And then on page 3 of the English, and this is skipping down

13     about four more paragraphs, it says:

14             "The government has been told that the settling of Ilok went on

15     rather well."

16             Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And then you say:

19             "We would appreciate at least being informed about the criteria

20     according to which it was done, with the possible remark that our

21     approval does not go without saying."

22             And then after that you say:

23             "This all the more in view of your request, which represents a

24     novelty as conveyed by Mr. Susa, that a reason must be stated and

25     approval given for temporary settlement of refugees in settlements around

Page 10362

 1     Ilok."

 2             Now, I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Hadzic, that among the

 3     reasons why the JNA wanted to retain some level of control over this was

 4     because you, your government, and its representatives were intent on

 5     placing Serbs throughout these territories without regard to their own

 6     safety and in areas that were still in the conflict zone as was indicated

 7     in the previous exhibit we looked at.

 8        A.   That's not true.  I said it in my answer before the break.  Maybe

 9     I don't have the right to ask and it's not courteous but from what did

10     you get this conclusion?  I didn't know that, and I couldn't even

11     suppose.  It's not written anywhere.

12        Q.   Well, Mr. Hadzic, I think we draw different interpretations of

13     the exhibit that we were looking at before the break.  I don't intend to

14     go back to it unless the Chamber would like to revisit it, the language.

15             Skipping down two more paragraphs, there's a reference here in

16     your letter to a report submitted to the government by Mr. Susa and

17     Mr. Bogunovic, Deputy Prime Minister.  And, again, just to confirm,

18     Mr. Bogunovic then had by this point been appointed by you also to join

19     Mr. Susa in these discussions with the JNA?

20        A.   Yes.  Him and Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic, who was minister of finance.

21     It was a three-member commission.

22        Q.   Now the next document is tab 1484, which is the letter that came

23     in response from Colonel Belic.  This is P1962, dated the

24     25th of December.

25             And at the beginning he greets you and says it his pleasure to

Page 10363

 1     establish official mutually beneficial contact with you.

 2             Moving down to the bottom of page 1 of the English, which is the

 3     fourth paragraph after this one, he says:

 4             "I must admit that I expected there be would be comprehensive,

 5     primarily planned and organised involvement by members of the government

 6     of SBWS in connection with the settlement of refugees from Western

 7     Slavonia."

 8             I'm going to skip down a few lines.  He says:

 9             "I'm disappointed to have to say and inform you that the people

10     you entrusted with the resolution of the most important civilian matter

11     at the moment have not demonstrated any shred of the necessary skills,

12     resourcefulness, knowledge, and, most devastating of all, good will.

13     Naturally, it is difficult to deceive people who have suffered and lay

14     the blame on others, and I say this because we have heard many serious

15     criticisms of your government from many people."

16             So again, Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to put it to you that despite all

17     your complaints about the military rule and the JNA, the role of the JNA

18     on this issue particularly in the Ilok area, the JNA took on this role

19     because the government had, so far, failed to establish or show that it

20     was willing or able to do so itself.  True?

21        A.   I was indicted before this Honourable Court for the events

22     referred to in the indictment.  One is that I was involved in the forced

23     expulsions and resettlement of these area by Serbs.  It's clear from this

24     letter that the colonel is accusing me of not having done that and this

25     should be, in fact, a crucial Defence exhibit proving that the charges in

Page 10364

 1     the indictment are untrue.  I'm now explaining something that you are all

 2     able to see, that I was not involved in the resettlement of Ilok.  I was

 3     perhaps a bad president, but it's up to the assembly to discuss it.  But

 4     if what Mr. Belic says and what Mr. Prosecutor says is true, then I can't

 5     be charged with it because I did not lend any attention to it.

 6             What am I supposed to answer to your question?  Right, I as the

 7     prime minister did not deal with the problems of Ilok.  I was not

 8     involved in the resettlement of people and Colonel Belic is accusing me

 9     of not having done that.  I don't think this calls for a legal expert.

10     This is basics.

11        Q.   He continues on the next page, page 3 of the English, first full

12     paragraph.  This is five paragraphs down in the B/C/S:

13             "I'm saddened by the fact that the problem of settling of people

14     is overshadowed by a request for accommodation to a ministry with a

15     sizeable staff -- with a sizable and staff as yet not approved by you,

16     and the priority task is to find accommodation for their family members."

17             So, really, Mr. Hadzic, at this point, again the JNA has

18     expressed its disappointment at your government's lack of concern for the

19     Serbian people that it wanted to put out into the conflict zone.  Now

20     they're expressing their disappointment at your government for this sort

21     of self-interest in getting themselves situated in the nice, beautiful

22     confines of Ilok.  True?  Everybody has been to Ilok.  Everybody knows

23     how beautiful the area is.

24        A.   The page was changed for me only now.  Could you please indicate

25     to me which paragraph this is so that I can read it again in Serbian?

Page 10365

 1        Q.   It's the paragraph that begins with the words:

 2             "I am saddened by the fact that ..."

 3        A.   Now I see it.  Thank you.

 4             Well, in your question, again, you mentioned the confrontation

 5     line, the front line, and, again, I cannot find that in this text.  As

 6     for this other thing that is in the text and that I can speak about,

 7     proves that this -- that our government did not have any influence over

 8     the settlements in Ilok.  I mean, we didn't even find accommodation for

 9     the three members of the government itself.  By the way, they were

10     refugees.  Susa was a refugee from Vinkovci and there was no place for

11     him and his family to stay.  And Vojinovic is from Vukovar but his house

12     had been destroyed, so he had nowhere to stay either, and the third one

13     didn't either, so this supports everything that I've already said.  If

14     you can find this somewhere else, this reference, we never asked for

15     that.  We just sought accommodation for the people who were supposed to

16     be in Ilok to work there.  We did not ask for castles or any particularly

17     beautiful accommodation.  We just needed accommodation for them so that

18     they could work and live somewhere.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1600.  Exhibit

20     65 ter 6527.

21        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, these are the minutes of the meeting of the Serbian

22     District SBWS District Council, the 25th of May, 1992, now.  So about

23     five months or so later.  This is in Erdut.  I want to stay with this

24     document on the issue of the priority of the SBWS and its policy on

25     resettlement even as of late May 1992.

Page 10366

 1             Mr. Milan Ilic, he was the head of the SBWS District Council at

 2     this point in time; is that correct?

 3        A.   The interpretation I received was "oblasni odbor."  It was the

 4     government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and he was president of

 5     that, and I didn't have any contact with them with regard to their work.

 6     After me, they were an independent body in relation to the president of

 7     the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that is to say, myself, so I really

 8     don't know what they did.

 9        Q.   Well, they were a body, they operated under the structure of the

10     Republic of Serbian Krajina, did they not?  They were not wholly

11     independent?

12        A.   Within the government?  Well, I don't know.  I had no

13     relationship with them and they probably had communication with the

14     government of the Republic of Serb Krajina.  However, they had their

15     regional assembly.  They had a high level of autonomy, so they operated

16     through the assembly and the assembly was above them.

17        Q.   Before the summer recess we looked at the document in which you

18     appointed Milan Ilic, I believe, at that time to be the head of the

19     Executive Council for Erdut.  Do you recall that?

20        A.   Yes, I recall that, but not Erdut but Dalj.  The name of the

21     municipality was Dalj then, and now according to the new Croatian law it

22     was moved to Erdut.

23        Q.   Then we see some other names of persons present at this meeting.

24     Do you know who Pajo Nedic was?

25        A.   Yes, of course, I know.

Page 10367

 1        Q.   What was his position?

 2        A.   In 1991, he was in the government.  He was minister of industry,

 3     I think, that what's it was called, in Slavonia, Baranja, and

 4     Western Srem.  And later on he was elected to this District Council but I

 5     did not have any particular contact with him after that, and I don't know

 6     which exact position he held.

 7        Q.   Now, in this document, we see item 2, which is what I wanted to

 8     direct your attention to:

 9             "President Milan Ilic informed those present about the fact that

10     several villages in the area of the district are virtually uninhabited,

11     and that there's a possibility for populating many other places as well.

12     The great importance of populating these places needs no further

13     elaboration.  What needs to be done is take urgent measures for this to

14     take place."

15             And then it continues on as to how to achieve that.

16             Now, Mr. Hadzic, what Mr. Ilic is saying here is that -- or I'm

17     going to put it to you the great importance of populating these areas

18     lies in populating these areas with Serbs so that the Serbian demographic

19     majority that has now been achieved in these areas by this point in time

20     can be maintained.  That's the great importance to Mr. Ilic.  True?

21        A.   No, not true.  I did not attend that meeting.  I just have to

22     point something out in response to your previous question.  The

23     government confirmed the appointment of Ilic as president of the

24     municipality of Dalj but it was not their proposal, it was the proposal

25     of the local communes.  Perhaps I should explain this.  Perhaps you

Page 10368

 1     really did not understand this.  I think that this is accidental and I

 2     don't think that it's a major mistake.  This was the problem.  I know

 3     that Slavonia and Baranja are agricultural land.  These were abandoned

 4     areas.  The land was not being tilled.  So these were peasants who were

 5     living and the land need to be tilled.  And I really don't know what

 6     Milan Ilic meant but I don't see anything here saying that he had said

 7     that it was a particular ethnic group that was supposed to populate the

 8     areas.  These were villages that had been abandoned, land that had been

 9     abandoned, and the land was supposed to be tilled so that there wouldn't

10     be diseases, infections and so on.  And I don't see where you get this

11     conclusion that it was supposed to be the Serbs and I don't see where he

12     could have brought these people from.  And I as president of the republic

13     and of the Krajina, I don't remember having discussed that problem at

14     all.

15        Q.   Well, we saw on all the demographic data, the numbers attached to

16     the document earlier this morning, that certainly in so many of these

17     areas where there had been Croatian majorities, those majorities no

18     longer existed.  Do you recall that?

19        A.   Well, we've discussed that before the break.  Do you remember?

20        Q.   Yeah, I'm asking you:  Do you remember?

21        A.   Well, I'm saying that I remember we discussed it before the

22     break.  Sorry, I guess you didn't understand what I was saying.

23        Q.   My point is that it was the government's policy - and that's

24     what's being expressed here and in other documents we're going to look

25     at - it was the government's policy to maintain those majorities even

Page 10369

 1     those -- I should say Serbian majorities, even though such majorities

 2     never existed prior to the conflict.  That was the policy and the aim.

 3     True?

 4        A.   Well, that's not true.  I explained concretely what the aim was.

 5     It wasn't that some elections were being prepared here between the Serbs

 6     and the Croats and that policy was to have as many Serbs as possible to

 7     vote.  Quite simply, somebody was supposed to live in that village and

 8     till the land.  Now, the Serbs were the Serbs who were there.  We

 9     couldn't have brought them from Mars in order to create some kind of

10     majority.  The land had to be tilled.  There was the problem of disease,

11     infections.  There were different problems in that area.

12        Q.   But here we are in May, the 25th of May, 1992, in fact, the

13     people that should have been coming back in to till the land were the

14     Croats who had owned the land and who had lived there before.  True?

15        A.   Well, I've told that I did not attend that meeting.  I don't know

16     anything about that document.  Somebody was supposed to go back there and

17     till that land.  Now whether it's going to be Croats who would accept to

18     return or whether it would be Serbs, this is the first time I'm

19     discussing this.  I never discussed it before.

20        Q.   Well, under the Vance Plan, which you agreed to, wasn't it under

21     the Vance Plan that, in fact, those Croats who were no longer there were

22     to come back?  Return of refugees, right?  That's what was supposed to

23     happen.

24        A.   Well, that's the way it was supposed to be.  The Vance Plan was

25     supposed to be carried out.  We were the party that accepted that.  We

Page 10370

 1     did not decide about that.  This was between the UN and the -- and Serbia

 2     and Croatia.  In May, nobody asked us a thing.  Not the international

 3     community, not Serbia, not Croatia.

 4        Q.   Well, you don't think that Mr. Ilic here is referring to

 5     populating these areas with Croats, do you?  I mean, you don't seriously

 6     contend that that's what he wants, do you?

 7        A.   Well, I cannot think either one thing or the other.  It would not

 8     be serious for me to interpret now what he meant.  I really don't know.

 9     For me it would be logical that Croats who would agree to accept our laws

10     should be allowed to return to our areas.  That would be fine with me.

11     It's only logical.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, we tender this exhibit 65 ter 6527.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object because the witness did not give

15     any information.  He was not familiar with this document and with this

16     particular meeting.  So I -- I believe there is no foundation for

17     admitting of this document.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you were looking at the original.

21             Can we look at page 2 of it.

22             Can you identify the signature that appears at the bottom?

23        A.   I see that "Milan Ilic" is typewritten but I don't know his

24     signature at all.  So this signature doesn't say a thing to me.  Although

25     I know the Cyrillic alphabet very well, I cannot even tell whether this

Page 10371

 1     is Cyrillic or Latin, and I cannot discern what is written there.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  I'll move on, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. STRINGER:

 5        Q.   Just a small detour here, Mr. Hadzic, before we move on.

 6             I'm looking at your testimony on the 9th of July in this trial.

 7     You were actually talking about a conversation you had with

 8     Radovan Stojicic about Mr. Bogunovic.  This is at page 9594.  You

 9     testified that Badza, Stojicic, had indicated to you that they didn't

10     want to work with Mr. Bogunovic as minister of interior.  Do you remember

11     that?

12        A.   I remember that.

13        Q.   Yeah.  And that it was as a result of that that he was removed

14     from that position.  I can read -- let me read your answer and then that

15     may make it easier for you.

16             You said:

17             "He didn't" -- this is page 9595.  This is what you said,

18     Mr. Hadzic:

19             "He didn't tell me:  Remove Boro Bogunovic.  He told me:  Do as

20     you will.  However, if Bogunovic remains minister, we will not co-operate

21     with him.  At least that's how I understood him."

22             Do you recall that?

23        A.   I recall that, the conversation with Badza, and I remember having

24     testified about this.

25        Q.   And then also on the same page of your testimony, you said that:

Page 10372

 1             "Boro was not professional.  He didn't have any experience.  When

 2     we set up the government, he was like an interim solution to the problem

 3     that we had.  That was the most important thing.  He was just not

 4     professional enough.  He did not have the required knowledge."

 5             That's at page 9595.  Do you recall having said those words, or

 6     words to that effect, Mr. Hadzic.

 7        A.   I remember.

 8        Q.   And then on the next page you describe then giving this

 9     information to Mr. Bogunovic because you said he was your friend.  And

10     then you said, this is page 9596:

11             "Badza -- and I said:  Badza represents Belgrade, and this is the

12     position of Belgrade.  And I see that somehow he agreed to be deputy

13     prime minister rather than minister of police."

14             Do you recall that?

15        A.   Yes, I recall that.  I said that Badza was the representative of

16     Belgrade or the representative of this Belgrade police, Serbian police.

17             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have tab 355, which is

18     P197.140.

19        Q.   I just want to put a time-frame on this, Mr. Hadzic.  These are

20     minutes of the SBWS government meeting on the 29th of November, 1991.

21     And at the meeting we see yourself, we see Stevo Bogic, we see

22     Mr. Bogunovic, Borislav Bogunovic, other members of the government.  And

23     then also present we see -- it should say, yes, the session was also

24     attended by Milorad Trosic, Milos Vojnovic, Predrag Radlovic,

25     Milan Milanovic, and then Radovan Stojicic.  So Badza was also present at

Page 10373

 1     this meeting.

 2             And then on page 2 of the English and I believe it's, yes, page 2

 3     also of the B/C/S.  Item number 2 just at the bottom of that paragraph it

 4     says -- well, it starts off, Mr. Trosic, district public prosecutor, was

 5     talking about the situation in terms of crime.  There's a discussion

 6     about that and then at the end it says:

 7             "The discussion also touched upon the matter of appointing the

 8     minister of the interior as one of the deputy prime ministers.  No

 9     particular decisions were adopted with regard to the report."

10             I think that's a report, the report of Mr. Trosic.

11             So does this indicate for us, Mr. Hadzic, roughly the time-frame

12     of your discussion with Badza, his complaint about Mr. Bogunovic, and

13     then the time when Mr. Bogunovic went from being minister of interior to

14     being deputy prime minister?

15        A.   Well, I cannot confirm that with any certainty now because this

16     process regarding the replacement of Bogunovic, it didn't take only a day

17     or two.  Perhaps it was a couple of weeks.  So around that date, yes, but

18     probably these talks took place before that.  It's not that Boro agreed

19     immediately.  So this was a time of persuasion.  I don't know whether it

20     was ten days, 15 days, I don't know.  I cannot remember.

21        Q.   Well, we know that by the time that Mr. Susa and Mr. Bogunovic

22     met with the JNA colonel on the 30th of December, he was clearly

23     deputy prime minister at that point because that's how he was introduced

24     and referred to.

25             You need to say yes or no.  You can't just nod your head.  It

Page 10374

 1     doesn't make it into the record.

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  It's not that I was nodding by way of a response.  I

 3     was nodding to myself.  And I think this was made public in the

 4     Official Gazette, when he became minister of police, deputy

 5     prime minister, so it's not only that.  There are several sources from

 6     which one can see when this took place.

 7        Q.   My point here, Mr. Hadzic, is Mr. Bogunovic is decommissioned as

 8     minister of the interior because, as you said, he wasn't professional.

 9     He was just not professional enough.  He seemed ill-equipped to handle

10     Ministry of Interior.  So what you then did is to promote him and put him

11     with Susa in charge of housing.  Again, it seems a decision calculated

12     to -- well, why did you do that?  Why did you promote him, put him in

13     charge of housing, when it's clear to you he's not professional and he

14     couldn't handle the job that he'd already had?

15        A.   Boro Bogunovic was a layperson for the police, but Boro Bogunovic

16     was a man who was capable of doing other things.  He worked in a big

17     company in Vukovar before the war and he was a capable person.  When I

18     said that he was not a professional, I meant that he was not a

19     professional for the police.  He did not have a good co-operation with

20     the police from Serbia and Badza was their boss and Badza was --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Hadzic please

22     slow down and repeat the rest of his answer.  Thank you.

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   Did you get that message, Mr. Hadzic?  They're asking if you

25     could slow down and repeat your answer.

Page 10375

 1        A.   [In English] Yes.

 2             [Interpretation] Badza had under his control the entire police.

 3     That includes the territory of Slavonia and Baranja.  And he did not

 4     want -- I mean, he did not find a common tongue with Boro Bogunovic and

 5     Boro was not a professional for the police.  But Boro was a man who could

 6     have done this work of a different kind.  Now, Boro, when he was

 7     appointed minister of police, that was not just my decision.  At the time

 8     when it's government was formed, I was not some kind of a big boss that I

 9     could have decided you'd be that.  I wasn't above Boro.  This was a joint

10     decision of ours that Boro would be minister of the police.  This was

11     just in a formal sense because the police did not even exist at the time

12     and the assembly appointed Boro deputy prime minister at my proposal.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Tab 1512, please, P3184.

14        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I just want to look at numbers for a couple of more

15     minutes.  This is a March 10th of 1992 report coming from Tovarnik

16     village, from the JNA commander there, regarding the national structure

17     and number of inhabitants in the zone of the 3rd Motorised Brigade.

18             And if we go then to the next page, we see another one of these

19     charts regarding ethnic composition pre- and post-conflict.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honours, in the English there, before "b/d,"

21     you'll see in the footnote "b/d" means "combat operation."  So these are

22     numbers before and after combat operations.

23        Q.   I just want to look at some of these, Mr. Hadzic, not all of

24     them.  You tell me if you disagree with -- if you have any strong

25     disagreement with the data that's presented in this.

Page 10376

 1             Tovarnik pre-conflict, pre-combat activities about 2100 Croats,

 2     262 Croats after combat activities.  Whereas at the same time we have

 3     852 Serbs who lived there who after the conflict are now joined by

 4     950 people who had come in, Serbs who came in to settle.  Ilaca had

 5     15 Serbs pre-conflict and 550 after.  Again, Serb settlers.

 6             So skipping ahead to page 5 of the English, population by

 7     national structure in the area of responsibility of the Ilok

 8     Town Command, 8500 Croats before, 1826 after.  The number of Serbs here

 9     remains relatively -- excuse me.  If we see before combat operations

10     1167 Serbs.  After combat operations, the number of Serbs who had lived

11     there before remains relatively the same but now we see inhabited, which

12     I'm suggesting is settlers, an additional 4314 Serbs who have arrived.

13             So would you agree with me, Mr. Hadzic, that what is happening -

14     and I'm not going to go through all of this, it continues on, Ilok,

15     Sarengrad, Mohovo, Bapska - but we don't really have any strong

16     disagreement, do we, that as of March 10th, 1992, there had been a

17     profound change in the ethnic composition of this Western Srem region

18     that's referred to in this report?

19        A.   Well, this report shows that they're using the concept of

20     military administration in the area of responsibility.  That is to say

21     that everything that happened, happened under the command of and in the

22     organisation of the JNA.  However, I as a witness do not know anything

23     about this because I did not take part in any of this and I did not have

24     this information.  But speaking as a private person, I know that people

25     came from Western Slavonia, Serbs, and the Croats left with their army.

Page 10377

 1     That I know, sort of.  But it's not that I took part in any of this and

 2     that I can testify about any of that.  I don't -- I cannot.

 3        Q.   Just setting aside the issue of responsibility and even setting

 4     aside the issue of why Croats left, my question is:  Based upon whether

 5     it's your capacity as president of the RSK, which you were at this time,

 6     or as a private citizen, I take it you don't take strong -- you don't

 7     have strong disagreement with the notion that there was profound

 8     demographic change that had occurred in Western Srem as of this time?

 9        A.   Well, I could agree.  I know the Croats left and the Serbs from

10     Western Slavonia came.  That's all I know, and I think that's what you're

11     asking.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1514, P2754.

13        Q.   This is from roughly the same period, 16 March 1992, a report to

14     the 1st Military District Command, "Weekly report of the organ for civil

15     affairs."

16             Turning to page 2, first of all, I want to see -- apologies.  The

17     top of page 2, talking about replacing personal documents, issuing them

18     with documents certified by the SBWS government.  And then:

19             "In order to resolve this problem, the organ for civil affairs

20     has addressed the issue to the SO government, municipal authorities.  To

21     facilitate solution to this problem in accordance with your abilities,

22     exercise influence on the government of Serbia and through them on the

23     Serbian district government.  The authorities of the government of SO

24     SBWS are not sufficiently present on the ground and are inefficient at

25     resolving important problems."

Page 10378

 1             Why didn't you take measures to -- because you know from your

 2     exchange with Mr. Belic going back to December that there was inadequate

 3     and insufficient co-ordination and involvement between your government

 4     and the JNA military authorities, why didn't you do any more to fix that?

 5        A.   There are several reasons.  The first reason is that we did not

 6     deal with the problem of settlement and resettlement at all.  It was not

 7     our priority and the government did not get involved in this at all.

 8             Second, we were taken by surprise by these events, as you can see

 9     from Belic's letter, and we were accused that we were doing nothing,

10     which is completely contrary to the relevant count in the indictment.

11             And, third, there was a military rule there.  You can see from

12     the date that the military rule was still there and they did not allow us

13     to deal with these issue.  So this commission headed by Bogunovic and

14     Susa, in Ilok, tried to do something, but they couldn't because it was

15     still administered by military rule.  And when the issue of finances came

16     up, that put a definitive end to it because they didn't even want to

17     discuss it.  They took everything in their own hands.

18        Q.   You just said "that we did not deal with the problem of

19     settlement and resettlement at all."  In fact, Mr. Hadzic, that's not

20     true.  You were the lead negotiator in the international negotiations

21     taking place about the Vance Plan, and the Vance Plan and your

22     involvement in it was all about settlement and resettlement.

23             How can you claim that you didn't have any involvement or

24     participation or deal with the problem of settlement and resettlement?

25        A.   Well, I can tell you and explain this easily.

Page 10379

 1             First of all, there are my arguments and the arguments of the

 2     opposing side who is accusing me of something.  The theory of Mr. Ilic

 3     was that somebody was trying to move Serbs into that area, whereas I

 4     accepted the Vance Plan, according to which the refugees were supposed to

 5     return when the conditions are met.

 6             On the 16th of March, the date here, there was no talk about

 7     this.  It's quite obvious from this that the JNA had a different plan

 8     that the government and I knew nothing about.  At the time we are

 9     discussing, my government was already disbanded.  It didn't exist.  So

10     when I said that we didn't deal with it, I meant the government of which

11     I was prime minister.  It was obvious that our priority was not to move

12     Croats out and move Serbs in.  After February, the government no longer

13     existed.

14             The problem of the Vance Plan is something you are right about

15     but in a wrong way.  The Vance Plan was for the return of refugees once

16     it became possible.  And even UNPROFOR was against them returning at that

17     time because the wounds were still fresh and the people who had until the

18     day before waged war could not suddenly live in peace together anymore,

19     and it was too early for them to return.

20             It's obvious that this JNA officer was advocated something that I

21     did not agree with.  I stand by my position as I stood by it then.

22        Q.   The next paragraph in this document says that:

23             "With the SO government's permission, the local authorities are

24     continuing to move out the Croatian population.  On 15 March 1992

25     approximately 100 inhabitants were removed from Boksic village.

Page 10380

 1     According to our information, the removal is carried out pursuant to

 2     compiled lists and they are mainly persons who are involved in any way in

 3     the Croatian Defence Forces or are still collaborating with them on a

 4     voluntary basis."

 5             Now, the fact is that even though you'd moved on to be president

 6     of the republic, the SBWS government and the people you left behind there

 7     were continuing to employ this policy of removing Croats in order to

 8     maintain the newly achieved Serbian demographic majorities; correct?

 9        A.   No.  You said they continued that policy.  They couldn't continue

10     that policy because the SBWS government did not have such a policy.  You

11     don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand whose writing this and

12     where they are writing.  It was happening in the area of responsibility

13     of the JNA.  Nobody could even come there without JNA permission.  It was

14     completely controlled by the JNA.  I don't know for whom these lies are

15     intended and why he is writing this at all.  Who could come to the area

16     of responsibility of the JNA at the time?  They didn't let us leave our

17     own villages without a special permit.  Who could take 100 people in the

18     plain sight of a brigade -- of a JNA brigade and all the colonels whom we

19     couldn't even approach?  I'm really surprised that anybody could believe

20     this.

21        Q.   All right.  So now this is Novica Gusic, Mr. Hadzic.  Is he also

22     lying when he says that this was done with the SO government's

23     permission?  Is this another JNA officer who is just lying about what's

24     happening in his own area of responsibility?

25        A.   Of course he is lying.  He is lying shamelessly.  What government

Page 10381

 1     permission?  Which government?  What could the government order to the

 2     JNA?

 3        Q.   And so then you're telling us, Mr. Hadzic, that all of these --

 4     this gentleman's a colonel and the JNA assistant commander for civil

 5     affairs, he is lying to his superiors in the 1st Military

 6     District Command about the removal of 100 Croat inhabitants from Boksic

 7     village.  That's -- that's your view?  This is an absolute false report.

 8        A.   No, that's not what I said.  I said he is saying half the truth

 9     and half lies.  In the first part, he is telling the truth, that it is

10     under their administration, military rule, under their control and that

11     was that.

12             Now, in order to keep it on record, he is lying that somebody

13     else had done it, not them.  So he's telling about 60 per cent of truth

14     and 40 per cent of lies.

15        Q.   So all of the expulsions and the displacements of the non-Serbs

16     from Western Srem, in your view, were carried out exclusively by the JNA.

17     Is that your evidence?

18        A.   In the JNA area of responsibility, who could come, at all?  The

19     government was still there.

20        Q.   Just answer my question.

21        A.   I started, but you didn't let me finish.

22             For our government, it was a big problem how to divide personal

23     incomes.  They didn't have a single bus.  How could they [Realtime

24     transcript read in error "we"] transport 100 people when they didn't have

25     cars for themselves?  I'm quite sure that nobody from the government

Page 10382

 1     could come to Boksic.  First of all, because the army was there and,

 2     second of all, because the government had neither cars nor petrol --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Hadzic please stop speaking so fast.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, you are speaking way too fast.

 5     Please keep that in mind when giving answers.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I just noted one error either in -- in

 7     transcript or in translation.  It is in line 8.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No wonder, Mr. Zivanovic, with the speech -- with

 9     the -- with the velocity with which Mr. Hadzic is talking.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.  It is page 54, line 8.  It is -- it

11     states:  "How could we transport 100 people ..."  Because he -- as far as

12     I heard, he said:  "How could they transport 100 people when they didn't

13     have cars for themselves?"

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  I was talking about that

15     government in which I was no longer a member.  I'm sorry I speeded up

16     because when the Prosecutor interrupted me, I speeded up because I was

17     afraid he might interrupt me again.  But I won't do it anymore.

18             MR. STRINGER:

19        Q.   So it your view, Mr. Hadzic, that the JNA is exclusively

20     responsible for expulsions and displacement of non-Serbs also in the Dalj

21     municipality?

22        A.   Well, that's a different matter.  I don't know how the expulsions

23     were enforced in the Dalj municipality.  If you can show me some

24     evidence, some papers about the organisation of that, but that could not

25     be done without the permission of the JNA.  Maybe some fools, maybe some

Page 10383

 1     self-appointed people did that.  But without the approval of the JNA that

 2     could not be done.  The JNA controlled the entire territory.  Not a

 3     single bicycle could pass by that check-point unseen, let alone a whole

 4     bus.  I cannot talk about any other details.  But nothing could happen

 5     there without the JNA.

 6        Q.   Was the JNA exclusively responsible for the displacements, the

 7     expulsions of non-Serbs from the Baranja region, Beli Manastir, in your

 8     view?

 9        A.   I know that the entire territory of Baranja was controlled by the

10     JNA, but I was not so familiar with the Baranja area and I have no

11     particular information.  But I'm again sure that it couldn't be done

12     without the JNA because the entire border, both facing Serbia and facing

13     Croatia, was controlled by the Yugoslav People's Army and the Serb --

14     Serbian police.

15        Q.   The fact is that displacement and expulsion of non-Serbs was

16     vital to you and your government and its ability to hold on to the SBWS

17     region in all of these places because there had not been a Serbian

18     majority there before.  Your view was that the expulsion was necessary

19     and needed to be maintained.

20        A.   No.  That was not a fact.  Our position was completely contrary.

21     I'll hope I'll make myself clear enough for the Trial Chamber to

22     understand.

23             During combat operations and after their completion, large

24     numbers of Croatian people withdrew together with their army and a

25     smaller number of them remained, those who wished to stay.  For me, and

Page 10384

 1     the government I represented, they were not a problem.  On the contrary.

 2     It was in our interest for them to stay there because we wanted to remain

 3     a part of Yugoslavia.  And as an ethnically pure territory it would not

 4     be good.  So it was constantly a problem for us that I faced very

 5     frequently as prime minister.  I was -- although I had no power against

 6     these expulsions.  And according to the information I now have, some

 7     Croats left because they were expelled but some left voluntarily,

 8     together with their families.  Because our authorities were not giving

 9     them permits to leave.  But they made do in various ways, they managed,

10     and many of them left with the help of UNPROFOR.  It was not good for our

11     authorities for Croats to leave Slavonia and Baranja because we were not

12     afraid of elections and the Croatian majority in certain areas.

13             No, that was not our thinking.  We wanted to stay within

14     Yugoslavia.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 1218, please, P41.

16        Q.   This is a UN cable to Mr. Goulding from Mr. Nambiar on 9th

17     of July, 1992, regarding their meeting with you, Mr. Dzakula, and your

18     foreign minister Mr. Vejzovic.  And I want to direct your attention to

19     paragraph 10 because what you just said, Mr. Hadzic, was a lie.  This

20     business about wanting the Croats to stay.

21             This is how it really was and we see it in paragraph 10:

22             "On the question of refugees, Hadzic said that they were prepared

23     to accept all non-Serbs who were willing to return to the UNPAs, but at

24     the same time it must be realised that even if all non-Serbs were to

25     return, the Serbs would still remain in the majority."

Page 10385

 1             And that was absolutely your position as president of the RSK, as

 2     president of the republic, that in those areas which you had finally

 3     achieved Serbian control demographically you were going to keep it that

 4     way and make sure that not enough Croats came back to be able to take the

 5     majority again as it had been before the conflict.  That's the truth,

 6     isn't it?

 7        A.   That's not true.  I don't want to use any harsher word.  There is

 8     no need for conflation here, and I'll speak slowly now so that the

 9     interpreters can follow.

10             A moment ago we discussed Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

11     Now we moved on to the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  What we saw in this

12     paragraph 10, I think, I don't have it anymore, this conversation,

13     two unconnected conclusions were conflated.  It was in my interest and

14     the interest of the government for the Republic of Serbian Krajina to

15     remain a multi-ethnic community and for the Vance Plan to be implemented

16     as best -- as well as possible.  It's not because we wanted to be still a

17     majority.  In SAO Krajina, even before the conflict, there were

18     95 per cent Serbs.  There was no problem for Croats to return.  They

19     would still be in the minority.  It just proves that we didn't mind the

20     Croats coming back.  It was not a problem for us.  Knin was 95 per cent

21     Serb.  I'm not saying that is -- that is either good or bad.  Why would

22     these 10 per cent Croats have to disappear?  And I don't see why you tell

23     me I'm lying when I say that I never minded Croats staying if they still

24     wanted to remain as Yugoslavia, as we wished.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Is it time for the break, Mr. President?

Page 10386

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, it is.  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

 2             Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, before the break, we were looking at P41 which was

 8     the UN cable talking about this statement of yours that you were

 9     "prepared to accept all non-Serbs who were willing to return to the

10     UNPAs," plural, "but at the same time it must be realised that even if

11     all non-Serbs were to return, the Serbs would still remain in the

12     majority."

13             I'm going to put it to you, Mr. Hadzic, that you're talking about

14     this issue of majority, that is, the demographic aspect, because you knew

15     that that was the key to your government's ability to hold on to the

16     SBWS.  You had to preserve the status quo that had been achieved during

17     the war which was the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of non-Serbs.  Isn't

18     that true?

19        A.   That's not true.  The interpretation I got was SBWS.  Did you

20     perhaps misspeak?  Because this is not about Slavonia, Baranja, and

21     Western Srem.  It's about the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

22             Could you just give me the whole thing back in Serbian so I can

23     see it once again and then I would like to explain that Serbs would still

24     be in the majority.

25             MR. STRINGER:  If we could show Mr. Hadzic paragraph 10 in the

Page 10387

 1     B/C/S.  I think we don't have that in its entirety.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I understand the context.

 3             I said it only as a confirmation, that this accusation that we

 4     didn't want Croats to come back doesn't hold water because in the

 5     Republic of Serbian Krajina, the Serbs would still be in the majority

 6     even if all the Croats returned.  So this accusation that we were afraid

 7     of it, that we didn't want it, is not true.

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   Well, actually, this paragraph talks about the UN Protected Areas

10     in the plural, and whether we talked about the UNPAs or whether we talk

11     about the RSK, we're still talking about the area of the SBWS.  True?

12     The SBWS was one of the UNPAs.

13        A.   Yes, it was, but for me that was the Republic of Serbian Krajina

14     as a whole and we didn't discuss separately that refugees could return to

15     one area and not to another area.  When we discussed the return of

16     refugees, we discussed their return to the whole territory.  We never

17     discussed -- I never discussed separate parts of that region, and I don't

18     remember that anybody ever specifically mentioned one area as different

19     from the others.

20        Q.   Well, just in the preceding paragraph 9 here, you're being asked

21     about the matter of the expulsions in Tovarnik.  So we know that despite

22     what you're claiming now, certainly the discussion with these gentlemen

23     from the UN included the SBWS; right?  Tovarnik being in Western Srem.

24        A.   I just explained it a moment ago.  I discussed the entire

25     territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, including everything, and

Page 10388

 1     including Tovarnik, which was in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  And

 2     could you please show me para 9 again so I can see what's written about

 3     Tovarnik.

 4             Yes, I remember that question.  I remember it was put to me when

 5     I came here, and I know that some of these people were prosecuted, those

 6     who were caught.  Not all of them were caught, but some people were tried

 7     for Tovarnik.  It was not strictly my job, but I know that case.

 8        Q.   We'll talk about that probably tomorrow.

 9             On the 14th of July, Mr. Hadzic, this year on your direct

10     testimony you were asked about this issue of what we call special status,

11     and your counsel referred you or said as a question, he said:

12             "You also said the most acceptable option is the one involving

13     special status.  Were those your words?"

14             And your answer was -- this is page 9719 of the transcript.  You

15     said:

16             "Yes, those were my words.  We in Slavonia, Baranja, were

17     prepared to discuss a special status but certain preconditions had to be

18     met and it couldn't happen overnight."

19             Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I think it had to do with my conversation

21     with Mr. Henry Wijnaendts.

22        Q.   That's right, and also Ambassador Ahrens who testified earlier in

23     this trial.

24             And in the context of Messrs Wijnaendts and Ahrens, then, when we

25     talk about special status, can we agree, Mr. Hadzic, that that involves

Page 10389

 1     some degree of autonomy or special status for Serbs who were in these

 2     areas of Croatia?

 3        A.   It was not discussed in detail but the very word "status"

 4     indicates that it was some sort of special status, but I don't remember

 5     it now.

 6        Q.   But you knew that certainly in your dealings with the

 7     international community, Wijnaendts, Ahrens, others, there wasn't going

 8     to be any special status for Serbs in Western Slavonia -- excuse me, in

 9     SBWS because they'd never had majority population in that area.  Special

10     status was only going to apply to Serb-majority areas such as the Knin

11     Krajina.  Isn't that how it was explained to you?

12        A.   No.  Why would Wijnaendts then inform me and not Babic who didn't

13     want to discuss it?  Wherever Serbs were in Croatia, they were supposed

14     to have some sort of special status regardless of the territory.  That's

15     how I understood it.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab number 44, which is

17     65 ter 1D02579.

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a report or a note dated 23 July 1992 and

19     it's setting out what was said at a meeting two days earlier on the

20     21st of July, 1992, in which you met with Lord Carrington and others.

21     Also present was your foreign minister, Mr. Vejzovic, Defence Minister

22     Stojan Spanovic.  Mr. Ahrens was there as well.

23             And the 21st of July being, well, the same month that you had met

24     with Messrs. Goulding and Nambiar in the document we were just looking at

25     a minute ago.  It's about 12 days later.  On page -- bottom of page 2 of

Page 10390

 1     the English, it says:

 2             "Ambassador Ahrens did not agree to stray from the task ..."

 3             That's where the paragraph begins.  And I don't have the B/C/S

 4     reference for you, unfortunately.

 5             I believe it would be page 2 of the B/C/S as well.  It begins:

 6             "Ambassador Ahrens did not agree to stray from the task ..."

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   I see that.

 9        Q.   And it goes on to say:

10             "Ambassador Ahrens responded to this remark by saying that the

11     Republic of Serbian Krajina had two serious issues:  Firstly, the RSK is

12     part of Croatia and is not completely independent, and secondly, the

13     basis for decision will be the census of 1981 or 1991, according to which

14     the Serbs have a majority in 11 municipalities and a relative majority in

15     Pakrac and Petrinja, but in Beli Manastir, the Serbs account for only

16     26 per cent.  After the return of refugees to the 11 municipalities, the

17     Serbian majority will be restored, and that will be the basis for making

18     a decision, but the other municipalities will not be part of the

19     autonomous community (read: RSK)."

20             Now, Mr. Hadzic, the message that's being delivered to you here -

21     and I'd suggest that, according to his evidence, Ambassador Ahrens

22     delivered this message to you more than once - the 11 municipalities here

23     are going to be a reference to the Serbian Krajina.  Whereas, as referred

24     to here, Beli Manastir, where there was only 26 per cent Serb,

25     Beli Manastir is never going to be a part of any sort of autonomous

Page 10391

 1     community.  It's never going to enjoy any sort of special status.  Isn't

 2     that what they were telling you?

 3        A.   We were all able to hear the testimony of Mr. Ahrens.  He said

 4     what he had to say about my conduct and the conduct of all the others who

 5     were there.  I have nothing to add to that.

 6             This was our thinking at the time.  Now, it says here that if it

 7     were to be the main principle, only the 1981 and 1991 censuses would be

 8     used, and in that case there was no point in expelling anyone.  That's

 9     why I was not in favour of expelling people.  And Mr. Ahrens could tell

10     you first-hand what I was thinking about the whole issue.  And it

11     confirms what I'm saying now, that I was prepared to talk and to

12     negotiate and work for a peaceful and stable solution.

13        Q.   But what Mr. Ahrens was telling you at the time was that you were

14     never going to be able to hold on to the SBWS as some sort of autonomous

15     region or territory because it had never been a region in which Serbs

16     formed a majority of the population; correct?

17        A.   Well, that is what is written here.  I don't remember that

18     exactly, but that turned out to be true.  That is ultimately what

19     happened.

20        Q.   And so you knew that your only chance of holding on to SBWS as an

21     autonomous region was to preserve the newly achieved ethnic composition

22     in which you did now have a Serbian majority achieved through expulsion.

23     Isn't that true?

24        A.   No, that's not the truth.  It is actually the direct opposite of

25     what you've been showing us just now.  What we were told was that

Page 10392

 1     irrespective of the momentary situation, it is 1980 and 1981 [as

 2     interpreted] that are going to be taken into account and that the current

 3     state of affairs really had no effect and that it really -- that there

 4     was no point.  It's only the census of 1981 and 1991 that would be taken

 5     into account.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender that exhibit, 1D02579.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3223, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, on the 10th of July, this summer, last month, on your

12     direct examination you were asked a few questions about Mr. Stevo Bogic

13     and I'd like to follow up on that.

14             At page 9689 of the transcript, you -- actually what was

15     happening at the time, my learned friend, Mr. Zivanovic, was taking you

16     through the Law on Ministries, I believe it was, in which all of the

17     people who had been appointed ministers of the SBWS government were

18     listed there.  Do you remember that?  And he was asking you about where

19     everyone had come from.

20        A.   I remember that.

21        Q.   Okay.  And then you were asked about Mr. Bogic and you said:

22             "He was from Borovo Selo.  He came as part of the package

23     together with Jovic and Devetak."

24             Do you recall that?

25        A.   I recall that.

Page 10393

 1        Q.   And as I understand it, he was a minister without a portfolio.  I

 2     think I asked you about this earlier.  You'd indicated previously, I

 3     think in your suspect interview, that he didn't have an education or was

 4     not well educated and so he could not be given a portfolio.

 5        A.   Yes.  He was not specifically professional for a particular

 6     ministry or department.

 7        Q.   And then you went on to describe his duties in which he was

 8     responsible -- well, I'll just read your words at 9690:

 9             "He assumed a responsibility to set up a security service around

10     the government building.  That meant around-the-clock security detail in

11     three shifts."

12             Do you recall that?

13        A.   I remember that I said that, and I remember that that's the way

14     it was.

15             MR. STRINGER:  And just for the record, Your Honours - I don't

16     think we need to look at it - the reference was to L -- Exhibit L1,

17     page 24 of the English, which is the decision appointing Mr. Bogic as

18     well as the other ministers of the government.

19        Q.   What was Mr. Bogic's profession or his employment prior to the

20     time he became a minister without a portfolio?

21        A.   I think that he was an agricultural technician by training.

22        Q.   And did you meet him in Borovo Selo around the events of the --

23     the time of the incident there in May of 1991?

24        A.   At that time, I did not meet with him.  I think I didn't even

25     know him at the time.  I mean, I didn't talk to him.  I hadn't talked to

Page 10394

 1     him.  Maybe I saw him before, but it's not that we were friends or

 2     anything like that.

 3        Q.   My -- my question, and let me put it to you this way.  When did

 4     you first become acquainted with Mr. Bogic?

 5        A.   I met him in the summer of 1991.  I think.  I knew him then by

 6     name and surname.  Perhaps I saw him at a meeting before that, but I

 7     didn't know who he was.  I don't know.  I don't remember.

 8        Q.   And then could you just briefly describe, then, how your

 9     relationship with him developed such that then he was entrusted with the

10     duty of establishing and organising this security detail for the

11     government buildings.

12        A.   Well, I don't know how I stated that up until now, but when I

13     said that he was in charge of security for the government, it's not that

14     I personally gave him that duty.  I didn't even know him then.  It was

15     the government decision and he became minister at the proposal of the

16     local commune of Borovo Selo, as I've already said, in that package, like

17     Devetak.  I didn't even know Devetak.  I just knew Dr. Jovic.  I mean, I

18     knew Dr. Jovic better.

19        Q.   Did Mr. Bogic have a background or training in security, as far

20     as you knew?

21        A.   Not as far as I know.  No, certainly not.

22        Q.   Moving forward, then, into 1992 and beyond, he also was a

23     minister in the government of the RSK; correct?  Excuse me, he was deputy

24     prime minister.

25        A.   Yes.  He was deputy prime minister of the RSK and he was elected

Page 10395

 1     at this assembly in Borovo Selo.

 2        Q.   During that period, did Mr. Bogic also play a role linked to

 3     security?

 4        A.   You mean during the assembly?  While the assembly was held?

 5        Q.   Perhaps, yes.  But just in general terms, during the RSK period,

 6     beginning in early 1992, did he play a role in respect of security for

 7     the assembly, for members of government, for transporting individuals,

 8     that sort of thing?

 9        A.   Well, at the time of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, that is

10     to say, in 1991, from time to time he would help and organise that, but I

11     don't have any information about 1992.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 97, Exhibit 1D03600.

13        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is from Danas, 16 July 1991.  Title is:  "No

14     talks with the Croats."  This is in Borovo.  And there is a part of this

15     that attributes some statements to Mr. Bogic and then another part that

16     attributes statements to you.

17             And in the first paragraph here we see, it says:

18             "These ideas shattered against the statement of Stevo Bogic who

19     admits that the Croatian authorities had issued several wanted notices

20     against him and they were just waiting for Serbia to recognise as its own

21     territory Slavonia, Baranja, and Srem.  There will be no talks with the

22     Croats.  There are too many insults, too many victims fell, so living

23     together is no longer possible."

24             What --

25        A.   I cannot find that in the text.

Page 10396

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It seems that the original doesn't match to --

 3     doesn't correspond to the translation.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  I'll move ahead then.  We'll come back to it,

 5     Mr. President.  Apologies for that.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  The next exhibit, Mr. President, is at tab 1047.

 8     It's a video-clip.  Exhibit P241.  We have this as the 29th of July,

 9     1991.  And we -- the interpreters should have it, the transcript, and

10     we'll wait for them to tell us if they've got it at hand before we --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we have the 65 ter or the V number?

12             MR. STRINGER:  65 ter 4895.1.

13             Can we start?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Yes.  Interpreter's note:

15     We've got it now.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The vice-president of the

18     Presidency of Yugoslavia, Branko Kostic visited Borovo Selo today.

19     Talking to the citizens, Kostic stated, among other things, that those

20     defending their homes could not be referred to as bandits or terrorists.

21     He criticised the federal government for, as he maintained, insufficient

22     support ... "

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we've stopped the video there, and I'm going to ask

25     you if you can identify a couple of the people -- a few of the people we

Page 10397

 1     see in the frame.

 2             First of all, to the right of the screen, our right-hand side,

 3     the gentleman in the light-coloured suit, who's that?

 4        A.   That's Branko Kostic.

 5        Q.   And what was his position at the time?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, I think he was vice-president of the

 7     Presidency of the SFRY and acting president or something like that; I'm

 8     not sure.

 9        Q.   Do you recall this occasion of his visit to Borovo Selo?

10        A.   I remember that he came.  I don't recall the details.

11        Q.   Would you accept if I suggested that this is on the 29th of July,

12     1991?

13        A.   I would accept that, yes, probably.

14        Q.   Okay.  And then seated next to Mr. Kostic we see that's you

15     signing something.  And then I want to move over -- moving to the left of

16     the screen, there's a gentleman standing with a light-coloured shirt

17     that's open at the collar.  Can you identify him?

18        A.   Yes, that is Stevo Bogic.

19        Q.   Okay.  And I want to show you a few more of these videos,

20     Mr. Hadzic, because just to suggest to you, it appears to me - and you

21     can correct me if I'm wrong - given his proximity, is he standing close

22     to you because is he providing some level of security?  Is this related

23     to his function on the security side or is he there for some other

24     reason?

25        A.   He just happened to be there.  It is not security.  He personally

Page 10398

 1     was not capable of carrying out security-related work.  He had a physical

 2     handicap.  He had a problem with his leg.  I mean, I don't want to offend

 3     him, but it would have been ridiculous if I were to say that he

 4     personally could have provided security.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  The next one is tab 1022, Exhibit P3128, which

 6     would be 65 ter 4831.1.

 7             When the interpreters have that, we'll start.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We've found it, thank you.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "'This moment was worth living for.'

11     These were the words that Ilija Koncarevic, the president of the

12     Great National Assembly of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, used to

13     address the deputies, announcing the decision that Slavonia, Baranja, and

14     Western Srem, together with the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina,

15     constitute a new federal unit of the Serbian people.  And the Assembly of

16     the SAO Krajina proclaimed Krajina a republic at today's session in Knin,

17     enacted its constitution, and elected Dr. Milan Babic as its first

18     president by unanimous vote.

19             "The Great National Assembly of the Serbian region of Slavonia,

20     Baranja, and Western Srem adopted the new constitution, by which it

21     proclaimed the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  The new state ..."

22             MR. STRINGER:

23        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is Beli Manastir in December of 1991,

24     proclamation of the RSK?  Is that correct?

25        A.   I apologise.  Yes, yes.  Yes.  Yes.  I didn't understand that

Page 10399

 1     that was the question.  Yes.  Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   Then we see you seated right in the middle of the screen there in

 3     the green uniform; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Who is the gentleman seated next to you?

 6        A.   That was the minister of foreign affairs in that government of

 7     ours, Professor Dr. Caslav Ocic.  He is a member of the Serb Academy of

 8     Sciences and Arts.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And we can run the video a bit more if it will

10     assist, but before we do that, could I just suggest to you that seated

11     behind you in the green uniform is again Mr. Bogic at this -- at this --

12     at this assembly?

13        A.   The interpretation I received said "again."  That would have

14     meant that he had been sitting behind me before this, or maybe this is

15     just a misinterpretation.

16        Q.   I'll rephrase the question.

17             Is that Mr. Bogic who is seated behind you that we see on the

18     screen, the gentleman in the green -- what appears to be a green uniform?

19        A.   No.  Vitomir Devetak is sitting behind me and it is behind

20     Caslav Ocic that he is sitting.  And behind me on this side, like Bogic

21     is on the other side, is Milan Milanovic and he is to Devetak's left and

22     Bogic is on his right.

23        Q.   Okay.  So just for the record, in the row of people behind you

24     then, starting at the right-hand side of the screen, that's

25     Mr. Milan Milanovic, Mr. Vitomir Devetak, Mr. Stevo Bogic, and then who

Page 10400

 1     is the fourth gentleman, if you can say?

 2        A.   I think that this is some guest from Novi Sad.  I don't know him.

 3     He's not from the region.

 4        Q.   Now, why were you and these two members of your -- well, who had

 5     been members of your SBWS government, Mr. Milanovic and Mr. Bogic,

 6     wearing uniforms?  Why are you still wearing uniforms at this time?

 7        A.   Well, I think this was December 1991.  UNPROFOR hadn't come yet.

 8     There was still a war going on, and I've already explained this, why I

 9     wore a uniform and why I wasn't wearing civilian clothes.  But maybe I

10     should explain it again if it is of interest.  I know why I wore a

11     uniform.  I don't know why Bogic wore a uniform and I'm not sure that

12     what he is wearing is a uniform.  I really don't know anything about him.

13     But I am wearing the uniform.

14        Q.   Okay.  The next document, I don't know that we need to call it

15     up, I'll just say it for the record, Mr. Hadzic.  If you want to take a

16     look at it, we can.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Actually, let's -- let's -- let's go there.  This

18     would be tab 424, which is Exhibit L6.

19        Q.   And what we're looking at here, Mr. Hadzic, is item number 140.

20     This is the Official Gazette of the RSK, decision on the election of the

21     prime minister and government ministers.

22             And here we see Mr. Bogic, number 4, as having been elected

23     minister of the government.

24             Do you know what his function was in this capacity?

25        A.   The only thing I know was that he was elected deputy prime

Page 10401

 1     minister.

 2        Q.   What did he bring to the government that justified that?

 3        A.   I don't see before whom you think this should be justified.  The

 4     government was formed only on that day.

 5        Q.   Right.  But you must -- as president of the republic, you must

 6     know what it was that he was expected to do; right?

 7        A.   Well, of course not.  This was the government of the Republic of

 8     Serb Krajina that was proposed and appointed and confirmed by the

 9     assembly.  Actually, it was proposed by Zdravko Zecevic, the prime

10     minister.  I didn't know half of these people who were in the government,

11     and it was Zecevic who compiled this personnel list of this.  I only

12     proposed Zecevic, I mean, and it was the assembly that elected him and

13     them.

14        Q.   This is the same Zdravko Zecevic that I asked you about earlier

15     in your testimony before the summer recess.  He's the gentleman at the

16     SFRY Presidency talking about how the Croats can't come back to Benkovac.

17     Do you remember that?

18        A.   Well, I just know one Zdravko Zecevic and that's the one.

19        Q.   And so he also then proposed Mr. Bogic and the others to be

20     members of his government?

21        A.   Well, that's what the procedure was.  The prime minister proposes

22     his cabinet.

23        Q.   I mean, as time went on, you became friends with Mr. Bogic,

24     though; right?  It's not just that you were president and he was a deputy

25     prime minister.  You had a friendly relationship with Mr. Bogic that

Page 10402

 1     developed over time.  Isn't that true?

 2        A.   Well, at that time not yet.  I became friends later when I lived

 3     from time to time in Borovo Selo, and that's where he was from.  I didn't

 4     particularly socialise with him.

 5        Q.   And it's your evidence that you really don't know what his

 6     function was as -- let me ask you this:  In general, did you know what

 7     was the role or the function of a deputy prime minister in the RSK

 8     government?

 9        A.   Well, I didn't say that I did not know what his function was.  I

10     said that he was deputy prime minister.  He attended regular meetings of

11     the government, but he did not report to me.  Zdravko Zecevic didn't

12     report to me either.  He probably carried out some work in which he was

13     guided by the prime minister.  That is only something that I can assume

14     but I don't really know.

15        Q.   Do you know if he represented the RSK government in meetings of

16     local officials throughout the republic?

17        A.   Well, I don't know.  I assume that that could have been the case.

18     I didn't know at that time and nobody reported to me about that, but he

19     probably did something.

20        Q.   And as a deputy prime minister of the RSK government, then, I

21     expect that his -- he would be obligated professionally to carry out the

22     policy of the RSK government as one of its representatives.

23        A.   Well, that would be logical.  But it was an issue for the

24     government, and the government was chosen by the assembly.  It was a body

25     parallel to the president of the republic.  Our competences did not

Page 10403

 1     overlap.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1049, which is P2199.

 3     This is a video.  65 ter 4896.2.  And we'll wait for the interpreters to

 4     say when they're ready.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Just a moment.  Ready.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The Serbs in Krajina, or at least

 8     some of them, have decided to welcome the Blue Helmets well prepared and

 9     trained.  This is no time for quarrel but for unity, harmony, and

10     coexistence of the Serbian people in one state, was one of the messages

11     heard today at a meeting in the 17th August training centre of the

12     Krajina SUP located in Golubic near Knin.  The meeting was held to mark

13     the beginning of the training of the first class of Krajina MUP policemen

14     and was attended by many dignitaries, including members of the rump

15     Yugoslavia Presidency Jugoslav Kostic and Sejdo Bajramovic, also

16     Goran Hadzic and Mile Paspalj, and the representatives of the Yugoslav

17     army headed by the commander of the Knin Corps Major-General

18     Ratko Mladic, as well as the representatives of the SUP of Serbia.  After

19     the anthems 'Hej, Sloveni' and 'Boze pravde' were played and after the

20     troop review, Milan Martic addressed the policemen."

21             MR. STRINGER:

22        Q.   We stopped the video at this point, Mr. Hadzic, again just we see

23     you standing there -- well, first of all, do you remember what this event

24     is?  We've seen this video a few times.

25        A.   Right now I have a brain freeze.  I remember we were there, and I

Page 10404

 1     remember watching this video but I can't remember.  My concentration has

 2     dropped.  I would be grateful if you could remind me a little.  But I

 3     know we have already discussed it.  It was some sort of celebration or

 4     something.

 5        Q.   This is what we would call the rally or the ceremony that was

 6     held at Golubic in spring of 1992.  Does that sound correct?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  I see it was in Golubic.  It was in 1992, right.

 8        Q.   And then the gentleman standing next to you, who's that?

 9        A.   This is Zdravko Zecevic, the late.

10        Q.   And then standing next to him?

11        A.   He is Deputy Prime Minister Stevo Bogic.

12        Q.   So, again, I had intended to suggest or to ask whether his

13     proximity to you again is linked to his function in some security

14     capacity, but based on what you've said, I guess that's not correct?

15        A.   No.  Behind my back you see the head of Ljubomir Mudrinic,

16     between me and Zdravko Zecevic.  That's my security.  And my second

17     escort, Milenko Japundzic, must be standing next to him but we can't see

18     it.

19        Q.   And those are the two gentlemen who I believe you've testified

20     were your closest security people really since the beginning when you

21     became president of the SBWS government?

22        A.   Yes.  They were my only escorts throughout 1991.  Stevo Bogic is

23     not standing there as my security man.  He is also a guest in some

24     protocol sense because we are lined up according to hierarchy.

25        Q.   Now, by -- well, you indicated that at some point, you -- because

Page 10405

 1     you were both living in Borovo Selo, you and Mr. Bogic then formed some

 2     sort of a relationship of a friendship.  When did that start?

 3        A.   Well, after the elections in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, I

 4     occasionally stayed at Borovo Selo.  That was in 1994.  And then I used

 5     to see him more often.  But we never had a problem with each other.  We

 6     were on good terms even before but we were not friends.  We didn't sit

 7     around in bars together.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  The next one is tab 979, Exhibit P3124,

 9     65 ter 4795.5.  And again we'll wait for the interpreters to tell us when

10     they're ready.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Can't see the 65 ter number on the screen yet.

12     Could you remind us?

13             MR. STRINGER:  4795.5.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Got it.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "So, on 19 February 1995, there was

17     a wedding of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, commander of the Serbian

18     Volunteer Guard and president of the Serbian Unity, and Svetlana Ceca

19     Velickovic, the most popular singer of Serbia and Yugoslavia.  The

20     arrival from -- in Zitoradja is as planned.  It's still raining a bit,

21     but nobody seems to mind.  I will also tell you who the guests of the

22     wedding party are:  The host ..."

23             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry, we probably don't need all of this,

24     Mr. President.  I'm just going to ask if my colleague Mr. Laugel can move

25     us ahead to about the one-minute mark of the clip.

Page 10406

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... Janko Raznjatovic, uncle;

 4     vojvoda, or duke, Vuk Vukovic; ensign - Zeljko Raznjatovic's eldest son

 5     Mihajlo; best man ..."

 6             MR. STRINGER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, just we're seeing now this image, the question is:

 8     You attended Zeljko Raznjatovic's wedding; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   February 1995?

11        A.   I know it was 1995.  I can't remember the date.

12        Q.   And is that Mr. Bogic who is seated next to you on your left here

13     in this image we're seeing?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And then as I understand it, at some point around this time,

16     maybe earlier, you actually -- I don't know how to put it the most

17     correctly, but you're perhaps the godfather of his daughter.  He asked

18     you to be the godfather of his daughter at her baptism.  Is that true?

19        A.   Yes.  It's a Serbian custom and it's a sin to refuse when you're

20     invited to be the godfather.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, whose daughter is that?

22             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise.  The daughter of Stevo Bogic.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MR. STRINGER:

25        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Hadzic?  We're talking about the daughter of

Page 10407

 1     Mr. Bogic?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 414, P00201.140.  It's a

 4     document, not a video.

 5        Q.   While this is coming up, Mr. Hadzic, by way of introduction I

 6     think we're going to move to an aspect of this topic which perhaps we

 7     will disagree about more than we have so far on Mr. Bogic.  My

 8     understanding from your evidence is that you deny that there was some

 9     entity or group called the Serbian National Security, what we call in

10     English SNB.  Is that your evidence:  It didn't exist?

11        A.   Yes, that's my evidence.  It didn't exist, except in colloquial

12     terms.  Those people who were standing guard around the government were

13     saying in jest that they were guarding the think-tank of the Serbian

14     nation.  The Serbian National Guard or Serbian National Security was more

15     of a pejorative term because it doesn't exist.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we're not getting e-court.  We

17     don't see the document on our screen in e-court.  I don't know if anyone

18     else is having a problem.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We have the same problem, indeed, Mr. Stringer.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Someone is looking into it, Mr. Stringer.  Can we

22     proceed or do we wait?

23             MR. STRINGER:  I think for the document we need to -- to -- we

24     need to wait.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

Page 10408

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, I could see if I could skip ahead

 2     of --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Oh, there it is.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Yep.

 5        Q.   You've seen this before, Mr. Hadzic.  I know for sure you saw it

 6     your suspect interview because you were asked about it.  This is dated

 7     the 10th of February, 1992.  Upper left-hand corner, it says:  "Serbian

 8     National Security, Erdut."  And it appears over -- well, can you

 9     recognise the signature there?

10        A.   I see it's written "Stevo Bogic."  I don't know exactly what his

11     signature looks like, but I suppose this could be it.  I'm not sure,

12     though.

13        Q.   And what's happening here is that Mr. Bogic -- well, looking at

14     the original, and we can blow it up, if necessary, do you have any reason

15     to doubt the -- the seal that appears next to his name there?

16        A.   I don't know.  This stamp is the stamp of one of the ministries

17     of the government, but it's not the stamp of the Serbian National

18     Security because it didn't exist.

19        Q.   I'm not asking if it's a stamp of the Serbian National Security.

20     I think you've answered my question.

21             Your evidence is that this does appear to be a stamp of one of

22     the ministries of the government?

23        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  It could be, but I'm not an expert.

24        Q.   And on the translation, what we have is that it's the stamp of

25     the Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, Vukovar.  Is

Page 10409

 1     that what it says?

 2        A.   That's written.  But I don't remember that stamp.  It must have

 3     been made at some ministry.  It was not the stamp of my office, the

 4     office of the prime minister.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now we just got that you said:  "It was not the stamp

 6     of my office, the office of the prime minister."  But now this is

 7     February 1992.  So at that point, your office is the office of the

 8     president; is that correct?

 9        A.   I didn't have a special stamp.  The only stamp I had was the

10     stamp of the secretary of the government, but this is not it.  I didn't

11     have any special office until I became president of the republic and that

12     was only after the 26th of February.  This is before.

13        Q.   There's some handwriting on the -- well, first of all, what's

14     happening here is that Mr. Bogic is sending in this specification of

15     requirements stating that they need funds amounting to 260.000 dinars for

16     one month and this is based on the work of the Serbian National Security

17     Service.  Do you see that?

18        A.   I see that.

19        Q.   So at least as of February 1992, Mr. Bogic thinks there is

20     something called Serbian National Security; right?

21        A.   Well, it might appear so from this.  You need to ask Bogic.  I

22     didn't have that information, and it didn't exist.

23        Q.   And then there's handwriting that can you see on this document.

24     And the handwriting on the left-hand side says:

25             "It was agreed that Bogdan should call, in other words, that it

Page 10410

 1     should not go into procedure until the other ministries are also

 2     resolved."

 3             That's 19th February, 1992.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   And then at the bottom of the right hand -- in the bottom

 6     right-hand corner it says:

 7             "At the recommendation of President Hadzic, approved by," and we

 8     have the signature of Mr. Vojnovic.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   That's Bogdan Vojnovic.

11        A.   I suppose it's Bogdan Vojnovic.  Because there was only another

12     Vojnovic, Milos, but this is a B.

13        Q.   And can you remind us what was Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic's position at

14     the time?

15        A.   He was the minister of finance.

16        Q.   You don't doubt that that's his signature on the document, do

17     you?

18        A.   I can't say yes or no because I've never seen his signature.  I

19     don't remember it.

20        Q.   But you don't have any reason to doubt what is indicated in this

21     document, though, do you, in terms of his approving the funds going, as

22     requested, to Mr. Bogic?

23        A.   I have no reason to either doubt it or not doubt it.  I can only

24     say it was not at my recommendation.  I don't know about the rest, and I

25     don't know what the purpose of this was.  The only thing I remember is

Page 10411

 1     that in February some money was supposed to come in to finance the work

 2     of the government, and this is just an attempt to launder something or to

 3     justify it.

 4        Q.   Well, do you think that Mr. Bogic is involved in trying to

 5     embezzle money from the government?

 6        A.   I can't go as far as to say that, but I think he wanted to pay

 7     salaries to the people who were guarding the government.  That's my

 8     guess.  Because from what I know, they had worked for an entire year

 9     without pay.  I mean, the whole year of 1991, those couple of months, not

10     the whole year, because they had only been working from October.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 432, Exhibit P1834.

13        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you were asked to comment on this document during

14     your direct examination.  This was on the 16th of July, page 9869 to 70.

15     And at 9869 you said that:

16             "As for the Serbian National Security, I've already explained it

17     didn't exist.  It was just misinformation spread among the people."

18             Do you remember that testimony?

19        A.   Yes, and that's true.

20        Q.   If we turn to page 5 of the English, which is -- I believe it's

21     also page 5 of the B/C/S, Mr. Hadzic, I'm looking at the paragraph that

22     begins with the words:

23             "Namely, at the time of disrupted values and general distrust,

24     aware of their advantage ..."

25             Do you see that?

Page 10412

 1        A.   I see.

 2        Q.   "... obvious distrust of the SJB," which I believe is the public

 3     security station, "and the SDB," which is the security service, I believe

 4     "certain individuals have established security services like:  The

 5     Serbian National Security and the security services in the TO Staffs,

 6     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's unit, is also used for this purpose."

 7             And then skipping down a paragraph, it again refers to Serbian

 8     National Security.

 9             "We're pointing here to the illegal opening of the positions in

10     the SJB by the Serbian National Security ..."

11             Following paragraph refers to the members of the Serbian National

12     Security.

13             And then the next paragraph after that, it says:

14             "The culmination of dissatisfaction was caused by the information

15     that the work of the Assembly of Krajina on 25 February 1992 was ensured

16     by the Serbian National Security and the unit of Zeljko Raznjatovic,

17     Arkan."

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   [No interpretation].

20        Q.   Do you allow for the possibility, Mr. Hadzic, that even if you

21     didn't know it was calling itself this, there was a group of people

22     linked to Mr. Bogic who did call themselves Serbian National Security,

23     SNB?

24        A.   No, they didn't call themselves like that.  It was a group that

25     was in charge of the security for the building.  And the residents of

Page 10413

 1     Borovo Selo, because most of them were from Borovo Selo, called them

 2     different names and one of those names was the National Security, Serbian

 3     National Security, but they were saying that they were guarding the

 4     think-tank, the conglomeration of the most precious brains we had.

 5        Q.   Okay.  I want to make sure I understand you clearly on this.

 6     Some people out there were referring to these security people as

 7     Serbian National Security?  Is that what you're saying?

 8        A.   Yes, but it was in jest because they were up to ten people,

 9     eight, nine or ten.  They were based in Erdut and they provided non-stop

10     security for the government while their neighbours had to take up arms

11     and go to war.  So these people obviously resented them and called them

12     different names.  Those people had to go to war while this group was in

13     the background.  They guarded the premises of the government, working in

14     three shifts.

15        Q.   And then it's indicated here, did they also become involved in

16     providing security at the Krajina Assembly on the 25th of February, 1992?

17        A.   I have already given evidence on this issue.  It's possible they

18     brought some ministers.  There could have been no more than three or

19     four.  The others must have remained in Erdut.  And they knew these

20     people so they knew who was allowed to come in or not.  But they couldn't

21     provide security because it was technically and physically impossible.

22     It was too small.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I believe we can break for the day.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

25             Mr. Hadzic, you will be back on the witness stand tomorrow

Page 10414

 1     morning at 9.00 so you stay under oath.  Thank you.

 2             Court adjourned.

 3                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

 5                           August, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.