1 Tuesday, 26 August 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
14 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
15 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton, Case Manager
16 Thomas Laugel, legal intern Marina Marcikic.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 And for the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Hadzic, I remind you that you are still under oath.
23 Mr. Stringer, please proceed.
24 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 WITNESS: GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. To start with this morning, I'd like to go back to an exhibit we
6 looked momentarily yesterday, which is Exhibit 1D03600, and the
7 tab number for that I failed to note.
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. STRINGER: 97.
10 Q. This is the newspaper article we looked at yesterday, and you
11 weren't able to find the relevant part of the text that I was wanting to
12 discuss with you in the original language version, and I think it turns
13 out that actually if we just go to the next page of the B/C/S version, we
14 will find what we're looking for. That's it. So that was my mistake. I
15 just forgot to take you to the next page.
16 So this -- and, again, we're still on the subject of
17 Mr. Stevo Bogic. This is from the 16th of July, 1991, the Danas
18 publication. And does it now appear to you, Mr. Hadzic, that the B/C/S
19 text that you can read corresponds to the English translation, if you're
20 able to say that. This is an article entitled: "No talks with the
21 Croats." And then it starts off:
22 "In Borovo Selo, since the clashes in May, no journalists from
23 the north-west have been in Borovo Selo ..."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
1 Q. All right. And in that first paragraph there, there are some
2 words attributed to Mr. Bogic, and he says there that Croatian
3 authorities had issued several wanted notices against him, and they were
4 just waiting for Serbia to recognise as its own territory Slavonia,
5 Baranja, and Srem. He goes on to say that:
6 "Too many insults, too many victims fell, so living together is
7 no longer possible."
8 This being in July, Mr. Hadzic, I understand from your earlier
9 testimony that during this period you were actually spending time living
10 in Borovo when you were unable to get to your home town of Pacetin
11 because of the roads. Is that correct?
12 A. Well, no, you didn't understand that quite right. I did not live
13 in Borovo at the time. I didn't have anyone to stay with. I was in
14 Borovo Selo sometimes once a week or once every two weeks, I spent two or
15 three hours there. I didn't live there at the time. That's not where I
16 slept. I was with my family in a village near Sombor, and all of a
17 sudden, I simply cannot remember the name of that village where we were
19 Q. Okay. And on the transcript from July 8th, on page 9534 to 9535,
20 your counsel asked you -- first of all, he is asking you:
21 "Where did you spend your time. Did you live in Slavonia,
22 Baranja, and Western Srem all the time or did you live in Serbia, like in
23 May 1991?"
24 You said, this was your answer:
25 "My family were refugees in Serbia and I usually return in the
1 evenings and spent the night with them. During the day I spent most of
2 my time in Borovo Selo. And if I was able to find a car, sometimes I
3 would go to Pacetin."
4 So maybe my question wasn't the best one. So the question now
5 would be: During, say, this period of May, were you spending a good
6 portion of the day in Borovo Selo?
7 A. Well, I came to Borovo Selo only in the second half of the first
8 half of May. That would be after the 10th of May. And then on the
9 15th of May, again I tried. That's when Vula drowned. What I said has
10 to do with the second part or the end of May. That is to say that I
11 would spend the day there, but I would not spend the night there. I
12 mean, your question, the one that has do with this text, I thought that
13 that related to July.
14 Q. Right. We're going to get there. And actually we'll go there
15 with my next question because again referring back to your direct
16 examination, Mr. Zivanovic asked you if you remembered journalists and
17 reporters making a visit to Borovo, both foreign and domestic press, in
18 those days of July 1991. And your answer was yes, you did remember that,
19 and that you sometimes had occasion to meet with them. Do you remember
20 that testimony?
21 A. Yes, I remember, and that's the way it was.
22 Q. And then actually what followed, then, was you were asked to
23 comment on a different newspaper article which is now already in
24 evidence, which is D118, which was the 13th of July article in the
25 Politika. And so I would just want to ask you now about this other
1 exhibit that we see, 3600, which is three days later now on the
2 16th of July, 1991.
3 So does this article also refer to that period you just were --
4 had described earlier about when you had an opportunity to speak to
5 journalists who had come to Borovo Selo?
6 A. You mean this article that's on the screen now?
7 Q. That's right. We can go down to the second paragraph and you'll
8 see that there are some statements there that are attributed to you.
9 A. I'd have to see that first in order to be able to answer your
10 question. I just need a minute or two.
11 Q. It's the paragraph that begins with the words:
12 "Instead of having a national council, Slavonia, Baranja, and
13 Western Srem have, since recently, had their own government."
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, but none of the paragraphs in B/C/S begins
16 with these words.
17 MR. STRINGER:
18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, in the article, do you see a quote -- well, do you
19 see a reference to what I've just described even if the words aren't
20 exact. A reference to instead of having a national council, SBWS now has
21 a government, Hadzic as its president, says that its first task is for
22 these areas to be joint to Serbia as soon as possible. And then it goes
23 on to refer to Mr. Devetak.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, if this question could be put after the --
1 Mr. Hadzic read complete article. He was asking the time to read this --
2 this article from the screen.
3 MR. STRINGER: That's right. I apologise, I was simply trying to
4 direct Mr. Hadzic to the part that I'm interested in, but if he wants to
5 take more time to read it, that's fine.
6 I see that it's in Latin script. It would be the second
7 paragraph of the original language version. I believe.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see it and I've read it
9 just now. I did not give that statement. I see that these are Croatian
10 journalists. I did not give any statements for the Croatian press at
11 that time. And he's not quoting me. This journalist is giving his own
12 comment. But if I understand this properly, he talked to Vitomir Devetak
13 and Stevo Bogic, not me, and I'm not even sure that he talked to them.
14 That's the way it looks on the basis of what has been written here.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have the next page in English, please.
17 MR. STRINGER:
18 Q. Well, let's do this, Mr. Hadzic. I don't want to spend too much
19 time on this. But let's look at the words of Mr. Devetak here. In that
20 paragraph it says:
21 "Vitomir Devetak, who held a press conference in a domestic and
22 foreign journalists in an abandoned school hall, believes that Serbia is
23 hesitant." And then it goes on.
24 He refers to:
25 "56 villages from Slavonia, Baranja, with a Serbian population
1 are tied to Borovo."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. I do.
4 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have D118, which is the article
5 from the 13th of July that came into evidence during Mr. Hadzic's direct
6 examination. I don't have a tab number for that.
7 Q. Now, this is an article that you looked at on your direct exam,
8 Mr. Hadzic, and that you then -- that was then put into evidence. I'd
9 like to direct your attention under the -- first of all, if we could blow
10 it up. This is the article called: "A place of men, impressions of
11 foreign journalists." And the second section of it is under the heading:
12 "Peaceful separation." And I know it's small text. If we could find a
13 way to blow that up. I can also give you my hard copy, if you'd like,
14 although it's small text.
15 A. Yes, I remember you gave it to me last time as well. And, again,
16 the print was very fine, and I couldn't see.
17 Could they just blow up that part of the text? A bit more, to
18 the right. Now they should scroll down. Yes.
19 Q. The article begins:
20 "Borovo Selo, July. The cease-fire, the hardest one, which is
21 only apparent, has lasted for a few days ..."
22 Do you see that?
23 A. I can't read any of this that is written here. Actually, I can
24 read half of it, and I cannot read the other half.
25 Q. Why are you unable to read the other half? I don't recall you
1 had any difficulty reading this when it was shown to you on direct
2 examination, sir. That's when I'm asking.
3 A. When I said I can read half of it, I don't mean exact halves. I
4 can read one letter and then I cannot read another one, so in a sentence,
5 I can read, say, half a word.
6 Q. Okay. Well, we'll just make a large copy of it, and we'll come
7 back to this a third time and see if we can make it work, Mr. Hadzic.
8 A. [In English] Okay.
9 MR. STRINGER: Now, could we please have tab 1420, and this is an
10 under-seal document.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
13 MR. STRINGER: Tab 1420. It is P1382.1351. It's under seal. So
14 perhaps we should go into private session. Although, if we don't
15 broadcast it, Mr. President, perhaps -- well, I think to be safe, if we
16 could go into private session.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's go into private session, to be on the safe
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 10423-10425 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 MR. STRINGER:
13 Q. This is minutes of the District Council of the SBWS meeting held
14 in Erdut on 6th of July, 1992. And here we see present are members of
15 the District Council. This is Milan Ilic. We've talked about him.
16 Pajo Nedic. I asked you about him yesterday. Other members of the
17 district council. And then other people present, Jovo Rebraca. Who is
18 he, Mr. Jovo Rebraca?
19 A. Rebraca was president of Tenja municipality at that time.
20 Q. Djordje Calosevic, who was he?
21 A. He was president of Dalj municipality.
22 Q. Was he also a member or did he hold a leadership position in the
24 A. He was not a leader. I believe he was a member of the SDS. But,
25 at that time, there was a moratorium on the work of political parties.
1 The SDS was not active.
2 Q. And then then moving down, we see that Stevo Bogic now is
3 attending this meeting. Do you know whether it was -- whether as part of
4 his duties as deputy prime minister, Mr. Bogic would have been attending
5 meetings like this, things happening at the more local level as opposed
6 to the federal level or the republican level?
7 A. I don't know whether it was his duty. I don't think so under the
8 constitution. You asked me yesterday what his title was but I saw it
9 now. You saw he was at that meeting with Vejzovic. He co-ordinated the
10 work and helped the prime minister, so that's how we can see what his job
11 was. But at that time I didn't know.
12 Q. So that here he would be acting as a representative of the
13 prime minister at this district council meeting?
14 A. I'm just guessing. I really know nothing about that session. I
15 didn't know when it was being held. I'm seeing this for the first time.
16 Q. Did you have a personal or friendship relationship with
17 Mr. Djordje Calosevic?
18 A. Not really. I knew him, but I did not have any particular
20 Q. Did you -- did he ever accompany you to meetings or to social
22 A. He never went to meetings together with me, but he did attend
23 some meetings. Not really accompanying me.
24 Q. What about social functions, either during this period or later?
25 A. I don't remember that. There were a lot of developments and
1 events, but I don't remember whether Calosevic was there or not.
2 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender 65 ter 6532, the minutes
3 of this District Council meeting.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object because the witness doesn't know
6 anything about this meeting and this document -- particular document and
7 there is no foundation for admitting this document into evidence.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.
9 MR. STRINGER:
10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you go to the last page of the original?
11 MR. STRINGER: If we could go to the last page of the original
12 language version.
13 Q. Whether you recognise the stamp and/or the signature?
14 A. I see this stamp for the first time. It must be the new stamp of
15 the District Council.
16 Yesterday you asked me about Milan Ilic's signature. I saw it
17 for the first time yesterday, but this is completely different. It's not
18 the same thing as the one yesterday. I don't know who signed this.
19 Q. Well, this is Mr. Jovan Jovicic, I believe. That's what the
20 translation indicates.
21 A. He was a member of the technical staff. I never heard that name.
22 I never heard that he occupied any position.
23 Q. What do you mean by "technical staff"? Like, was he a secretary
24 or an administrator?
25 A. I'm not sure that that this is really "Jovan Jovicic" written
1 here. Jovan Jovicic did not exist in an important position. I think he
2 was an unimportant person. I don't know exactly what the name is, Jovan
3 Jovicic or Jovic. I don't know whose signature this is.
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we don't disagree, do we, that during this period of
5 time Mr. Milan Ilic was the president of the District Council for SBWS;
6 is that correct? We can agree on that?
7 A. I've said that at least ten times. From spring 1992 he was
8 elected the -- the elected president of that District Council.
9 Q. And just on that, as the president of the District Council did he
10 sort of -- was he the leading executive, the leader of the executive body
11 for SBWS then?
12 A. Well, by the very name of that title, that's what it means. But
13 I didn't meddle in their work, and I don't know to what extent they made
14 any decisions.
15 Q. I've just been informed that I misspoke, I said "Jovan" and I
16 should have said "Nemanja," I think, which is the name as it appears on
17 the translation. Nemanja Jovcic. Do you know who that is, Mr. Hadzic?
18 A. I saw that he was at the meeting. I personally didn't know him.
19 Now I see that it's not Jovicic by Jovcic, first name Nemanja. I don't
20 know what his position was.
21 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 63, 1D03460.
22 This may be a confidential document, Mr. President. If we could
23 not broadcast, I think I can work with that.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
25 MR. STRINGER:
1 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the first part of this document, the first page, and
2 by the way, just for the record, this is dated -- we're jumping ahead in
3 time now to the 24th of May, 1994.
4 And this is a report of some -- of an event that took place on
5 the 21st of May and it refers to Mr. Seselj attending a meeting of SRS,
6 Serbian Radical Party representatives in Borovo Naselje. I actually am
7 going to skip over that part because it's not what is of interest here.
8 MR. STRINGER: If we could go to page 2 of the English version.
9 In the B/C/S version, it's the last paragraph of the document.
10 Q. And it refers to the village feast day in Pacetin. At this time,
11 you're the former president of the RSK. You had organised a party. Take
12 a look at that, Mr. Hadzic, and tell us if you remember that?
13 A. I don't remember that celebration of the patron saint's day
14 specifically. There were many people there. I don't remember exactly.
15 Q. It is indicated here that Mr. Bogic attended this event as well
16 as Mr. Djordje Calosevic, Boro Bogunovic. The party was festive, there
17 was a band. And also there's a reference to Mr. Misa Milosevic who was
18 present. And on him, Mr. Misa Milosevic, his name has come up before in
19 connection with your participation in the international negotiations,
20 correct? He accompanied you and Mr. Babic, I believe, in some of the
21 early negotiations with Mr. Wijnaendts and the Carrington Commission. Is
22 that true?
23 A. It's true we mentioned Misa Milosevic. At that time when we
24 mentioned him, that was the autumn of 1991, I didn't know him. He was in
25 a delegation of the SAO Krajina headed by Milan Babic. That's when I
1 first heard of him, and I met him a bit later.
2 Q. Do you remember him attending a party that you hosted in your
3 village, the event that's referred to here? Do you remember this?
4 A. I remember. Misa was in Pacetin only once, together with
5 Momo Kapor. But, for instance, a person, Djuro Kljajic is mentioned
6 here. I don't know such a person so he couldn't ever have been in my
7 house. Nobody with that name has ever visited me. But I cannot say
8 about these names that they were either there or not because there were
9 over 50 people there, coming and going.
10 Q. Mr. Bogic has been a guest in your house, I take it?
11 A. In Pacetin very rarely. I don't remember that he was ever in
12 Pacetin. But I should like to tell the Trial Chamber, in the Serbian
13 Orthodox religion, you don't invite people to your patron saint's day.
14 People who know who are your friends will come on their own. There were
15 some people who came from Belgrade, from a long way away, and the rest
16 were locals. But none of them were specifically invited. You don't
17 invite people, that's our custom. You don't invite people on that day.
18 They come on their own.
19 Q. And Mr. Djordje Calosevic, he has also been a guest in your
20 house, whether on this occasion or other occasions; correct?
21 A. Earlier when I was the president of the republic, he didn't come.
22 And later, when I lost the elections, I don't know why he would come
23 then. Maybe he had come earlier to congratulate me, to express his
24 support. But I really don't remember.
25 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1014. This is a
1 video-clip. And it is 65 ter 4811.4, and we'll wait for the interpreters
2 to let us know when they've found it.
3 While we're waiting for the interpreters, Mr. President, I have
4 just been informed by my colleague Ms. Clanton that the document we just
5 looked at a moment ago, 1D03460, is a public exhibit from the
6 Stanisic-Simatovic case, and so it may not be necessary to have
7 confidential status linked to this document for our case.
8 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So we can lift that status.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dafina Milanovic with her
12 associates visited Baranja and Srem today. Stevo Bogic, deputy prime
13 minister of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; Milan Ilic, president of the
14 District Council of the Serbian District; Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,
15 commander of the Serbian Volunteer Guard; and a group of businessmen from
16 the district welcomed her in Erdut. During her meeting, Mrs. Milanovic
17 inquired about the economic situation and possibilities to invest in the
18 revival of economy. She said that the possibilities and potential of the
19 district are huge and the potential of Krajina has to be used in a proper
20 way for the benefit of the people, Serbian Krajina, and its future.
21 "Dafina Milanovic: I believe we could make it become better than
22 Switzerland. Having in mind the potential of Krajina, it would be easy
23 to achieve if we start to work more and if we show more responsibility.
24 The situation will get better once we start employing people. It is my
25 intention first to build a greenhouse, to start producing food because
1 that's what is most needed in Serbian Krajina. Then we would start with
2 livestock farming. I talked yesterday with businessmen from Thessaloniki
3 and Athens about investments in the livestock export industry here as
4 well, as well as a dairy plant, and I think we will start working on it
5 very soon.
6 "Another speaker: If Mrs. Dafina is of the opinion that our area
7 could become ... we have no reason to doubt it. It is our duty to work
8 on it and make it happen."
9 MR. STRINGER:
10 Q. Well, we'll take another look at the video, Mr. Hadzic, but just
11 the very last person who was speaking, can you tell us who that was?
12 A. Milan Ilic.
13 Q. Okay. Let's start the video again and we'll stop at a couple of
14 places. I'm going to ask you to identify some more people.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. STRINGER:
17 Q. Now, and before we go further, Mr. Hadzic, I should ask, can you
18 tell us who is this woman, Dafina Milanovic?
19 A. She had a privately owned bank, as far as I remember, in
21 Q. And can you identify the two men who are then on either side of
22 her, holding the flag, in the image that we're just looking at here.
23 A. On the right of her, as you all well know, is Zeljko Raznjatovic,
24 Arkan, and to her left, I can identify Milan Ilic.
25 Q. What period of time was Mr. Ilic - if you know - the president of
1 the SBWS District Council?
2 A. I don't know exactly. I know it was from spring 1992 until --
3 I'm not sure when.
4 Q. Why did he wear a uniform if is he a civilian, holding down a
5 civilian position as president of the District Council?
6 A. You can ask me -- you're asking me too much as a witness. From
7 my information, I never heard why he was wearing a uniform. Milan Ilic
8 is dead, by the way.
9 Q. At the beginning of your cross-examination before the summer
10 recess when we were talking about Arkan I showed you an exhibit which was
11 P1909, in which a reference was made to Ilic being fond of wearing the
12 Tigrovi uniform. Do you remember that?
13 A. I remember you said that, but that was the first time I heard
14 about it. I didn't know it.
15 Q. Well, what we see here is -- from what we can see, it appears he
16 is wearing something very similar to the Arkan that -- to the uniform
17 that Arkan is wearing, isn't he?
18 A. I can't say that.
19 MR. STRINGER: If we could just roll the video for a little bit
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. STRINGER: Okay.
23 Q. Just for the record, Mr. Hadzic, who are we looking at here?
24 A. Stevo Bogic. In the centre.
25 Q. And in the footage, he's introduced as deputy prime minister of
1 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, so this would at least be sometime in or
2 after the spring of 1992; correct?
3 A. 1992/1993. I really don't know exactly when it was.
4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender this clip, 65 ter 4811.4.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3224, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1720. 65 ter 6562. It's
9 a confidential document, which I think -- if we don't broadcast it on the
10 screens outside, I can manage.
11 Q. This is a report, Mr. Hadzic, dated 13th of October, 1993. It's
12 coming from Belgrade. It's referring to a session of the Assembly of the
13 SBWS that was held in Dalj on the 11th of October. And then another
14 session that was held the following day, on the 12th of October, in
15 Vukovar. And at that session, Deputy Stevo Bogic and Boro Bogunovic
16 forced and pressured deputies who wanted to go to the continuation of the
17 session at Plitvice, saying they would not get there.
18 Take a look, take a moment to look at the document, Mr. Hadzic,
19 because --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would kindly ask that this
22 document Mr. Hadzic could read in its entirety because it is just
23 recently disclosed, and I don't believe that he had the opportunity
24 earlier to see that at all.
25 MR. STRINGER: I can give him my hard copy, Mr. President, if
1 that would assist.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think that would. Thank you, Mr. Stringer.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're asking me about this
4 document, I think it's a pamphlet infiltrated at the beginning of the
5 election campaign in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
6 MR. STRINGER:
7 Q. It -- what is -- what I'm not interested in is the -- if there is
8 sort of some political competition that is taking place between you and
9 Mr. Martic, his people and your people, we're not interested in that. We
10 see that this is in the leadup to the election that occurred in
11 December of 1993.
12 The question I have, though, is at the bottom of the last
13 paragraph on the first page of the English version, which begins with the
15 "In the process, the citizens do not believe all these statements
16 because they know ..."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. On the second page in Serbian. Now I see it. I have it in my
20 Q. And actually in the preceding paragraph there's a reference here
21 in this report to a statement that's attributed to you that:
22 "Slobodan Milosevic has been informed of everything, that Hadzic
23 is in daily contact with him, along the lines of: I agreed on this too
24 with Slobo a moment ago."
25 And then it goes on to say:
1 "In the process, citizens do not believe all these statements because
2 they know that actually in question is an attempt of a group of
3 criminals, headed by President Hadzic, Steve Bogic, Boro Bogunovic,
4 Vukasin Egic, Jovan Rebraca and others, to retain a monopoly over the
5 material goods of the [sic] region."
6 And then it continues on. We can all read that.
7 A. It's important also to read that the Socialist Party of Serbia is
8 also mentioned. That says it all about this text. And it shows the
9 purpose of this text. The target audience.
10 Q. Well, in fact, in the video-clip that we just saw where
11 Mr. Bogic, Arkan and Ilic and all the businessmen were meeting with
12 Ms. Milanovic, there was an objective of acquiring control over the
13 material wealth of that region, the SBWS, and people who'd been with you
14 from the beginning, such as Stevo Bogic and Arkan, were a big part of
15 that. Isn't that true?
16 A. Well, I'm a bit stunned by your logic and linking this document
17 to what we were discussing and the visit of Dafina Milanovic in Erdut.
18 First of all, I think that has nothing to do with it. And secondly,
19 during the war, in the former Croatia, there was a lot of crime on both
20 sides, the Croatian side and the Serb side. And there's no denying that.
21 Dafina Milanovic came only once. I don't know anything about that. And
22 now whether Arkan was involved in crime or somebody else, I really don't
23 know. The judiciary hasn't said anything about it so I can only make
25 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1037.
1 Q. We're going to change gears here, Mr. Hadzic, take on a new
3 MR. STRINGER: This is a video-clip. 65 ter 4873.2. And we'll
4 wait for the interpreters --
5 THE INTERPRETER: We have found it. Thank you.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: As previously announced,
8 Goran Hadzic, president of the Serb region of Slavonia, Baranja, and
9 Western Srem is in our studio. Good evening.
10 "Goran Hadzic: Good evening.
11 "Anchor: When did you arrive in Belgrade?
12 "Goran Hadzic: Well, I arrived last night.
13 "Anchor: Can I ask you as a reporter what the current situation
14 in the war theatre is?
15 "Goran Hadzic: Well, the situation is much clearer in military
16 terms. We have a big part of free liberated territory in our area. That
17 is, the whole of Baranja, Western Srem, from Vinkovci in the direction of
18 Sid, and the bigger part of this Osijek field. That is, the territory
19 between Osijek and Vukovar. Vukovar is currently blocked. We expect a
20 denouement of the situation in Vukovar any day. We are capable of
21 dealing with this quickly, but we are thinking of human lives and taking
22 care that this would be done slowly and securely with as little
23 casualties as possible. That is, we do not want any casualties."
24 MR. STRINGER:
25 Q. Before we continue, Mr. Hadzic, based on your description of the
1 situation here, Vukovar is still blocked, this would indicate to us that
2 we're talking about the period obviously prior to the 18th of November,
3 1991, sometime perhaps in earlier November, October 1991 [Realtime
4 transcript read in error "1992"]. Is that generally the time-frame here,
5 based on what you've said?
6 A. Well, I think it could be that, yes.
7 Q. Now, the information that you're sharing with the reporter here,
8 who was briefing you on the military situation, status, operations
9 objective, what was the source of your information that you're giving us
11 A. I think I've already explained this to you maybe once. I gave
12 information on the basis of the knowledge I had as an ordinary citizen
13 and from the media and -- I had the opportunity of buying newspapers in
14 Serbia. In Slavonia and Baranja, people could not read the newspapers or
15 see the electronic media. Also I got information from friends, some
16 ministers at meetings, et cetera. It was unofficial but I didn't want to
17 say on TV that I did not know because in this way, I would do away with
18 my political position.
19 Q. You just said you "had the opportunity of buying newspapers in
20 Serbia. In Slavonia or Baranja, people could not read the newspapers or
21 see the electronic media."
22 So are you telling us that all of the information you got about
23 what was happening was coming to you from the newspapers in Belgrade?
24 A. Well, I don't know whether this interpretation is good, what I
25 said just now. I think that you've misquoted me just now. Perhaps it's
1 a mistake in the transcript, so I'm going to repeat what I said.
2 I said that in Slavonia and Baranja there weren't any newspapers and
3 there wasn't any television. People couldn't watch television because
4 there usually wasn't electricity. And I bought newspapers in Serbia.
5 When I was in Serbia, I could see the Belgrade media and the Zagreb media
6 and I even found a way of obtaining Croatian newspapers, too, so I got
7 information from both sides, the Serb and the Croat sides. Because I had
8 to be very careful about this. I didn't have a particular service, a
9 police or military police that would inform me, so that was the only way
10 in which I received information, the way I described just now, through
11 Croatian and Serbian media and a bit through foreign media. But my
12 English was not at that level that I could understand 100 per cent of
13 everything, so it was mostly the Serbian media and the Croatian media.
14 Q. So you read in the Serbian media or in the media that denouement
15 on the situation in Vukovar could come any day?
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I notice that one word was omitted from
18 the transcript. In -- at page 25, line 8, after the word "a police or
19 military" -- the word "military" was omitted.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that I did not have
21 that kind of service. I did not have a police or a military.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stringer. It's on the record
24 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Also I think either I
25 misspoke or there was a mistake on page 24, line 6, I was suggesting to
1 Mr. Hadzic that this was sometime prior to 18th of November, 1991, and
2 then I said sometime perhaps in earlier November or October 1992, and
3 that obviously actually should be 1991.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer. It's on the record now.
5 MR. STRINGER:
6 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you were going to Belgrade frequently. We know that
7 during the fall of 1991 you were meeting with people in the Ministry of
8 Defence. We're going to talk about your meeting with Mr. Mandaric in a
9 little while in Novi Sad. The fact is, you were getting your information
10 not from the press but from military and political people whom you were
11 meeting throughout this period of time. Why don't you just admit that?
12 A. Why would I admit that when that is not true? I'm not being
13 forced to say something in terms of admitting or not admitting. I'm
14 testifying here. I'm not here to admit this or that. I'm testifying
15 about what things were like.
16 As for the people you mentioned, they actually asked me about
17 what was going on there, specifically Mandaric and the Defence Ministry,
18 and they didn't know anything what was going on over there. They knew
19 even less than I did.
20 Q. So when you are saying things like: "We expect denouement of the
21 situation in Vukovar any day, we are capable of dealing with this
22 quickly, we are thinking of human lives," this is all just stuff you are
23 making up? I mean, you wouldn't be reading about that in the press, I
24 don't think. Is this just a political statement you're making?
25 A. Well, you could interpret it any which way you want but that was
1 my conclusion. This was my sublimation of this situation and that is
2 what I wanted to say in public, so you can say that I made it up or that
3 I provided information halfway or whatever.
4 MR. STRINGER: We're continuing with the video but I'm not
5 hearing any interpretation.
6 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear anything.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: We just heard half a second of the soundtrack
10 now, interpreter's note.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: Do you have information on
13 events in Vukovar? Do you have information on Serb people in Zagreb?
14 All communication lines are down, there is no phone connection, people
15 cannot talk to their families.
16 "Goran Hadzic: As I said, I'm not concerned with military
17 issues. I am positive a final solution will follow. I'm, however,
18 concerned about the information I personally received from some of our
19 services. They tell me what the situation in Zagreb is, and we know what
20 happened in Vukovar, mass crime against the civilian population. We will
21 interrogate perpetrators and bring them to court, national court. I am
22 certain they will be published [as interpreted] accordingly for their
23 misdeeds. It is no use to whine. This is neither asked nor expected of
24 us. Serbs never whined. Serbs should fight and will fight to protect
25 their people.
1 "Anchor: You have already appealed to all able-bodied men to
2 return to their homes and join their comrades who are already at the
3 frontline. Was the appeal successful?
4 "Goran Hadzic: The appeal was successful in every way. A number
5 of our combatants who fled now returned. They are fighting in the first
6 lines. We also called volunteers from Serbia, irrespective of their
7 party, Serbs to join our ranks and fight with Serb insignia for the
8 imperilled Serb people. They came. I will take this opportunity to
9 thank all of them who came to fight. The group from Belgrade stands out.
10 They are always in the first combat lines. They fight and get killed
11 just like us but are not hesitant to go all the way and win.
12 "Anchor: What do you think, those of you who are in the field,
13 what is the actual condition that could lead to a truce, not the one
14 signed in cabinets but the actual truce in theatre of war?
15 "Goran Hadzic: Well, there is a number of conditions. The first
16 one is for Serbs to come to their senses - I refer to all Serbs within
17 the current borders of Yugoslavia - and realise that only Serb unity can
18 lead to final victory. The second condition is that official Europe,
19 that is the world, the international community, realise that the Yugoslav
20 problem can only be realised by respecting the will of the people, in no
21 other way. No foreign interference can help with this. And the third
22 condition is to deal with this Fascist Ustasha nest in the Republic of
23 Croatia till the end firmly and decisively. This means confronting them
24 with no mercy since they inflicted so much evil on the suffering Serb
25 people that there is no mercy for them, nor should there be.
1 "Anchor: Do you think that Serbs and Croats can live together?
2 "Goran Hadzic: Not the brotherhood and unity type of co-existence
3 introduced 50 years ago, but knowing my people, I'm sure Serb will not
4 harm anyone who is not harming them. So all Croats who stay in our
5 region, all Croats living here for years, like us, will be able to stay
6 with us in the Serb region, have the same rights as everyone else, as
7 Serb people, other nations and nationalities. And the Croats who have
8 blood on their hands and are wallowing in it, they will surely be held
9 responsible for what they did. We will have no mercy with them, and U
10 say this for the third time this evening.
11 "Anchor: Thank you for being the guest of Dnevnikov Dodatak. We
12 are moving on now."
13 MR. STRINGER:
14 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, this testimony you've been giving us about
15 having as your only sources what you read in the newspaper in Belgrade,
16 you've just lied about that because now as you've said publicly and at
17 the time, you were getting information from what you referred to as "our
19 Who are "our services" that you referred to in this televised
21 A. Your Honours, I'm not a lawyer and I have to give a sincere
22 answer to this question. If I were to say now that I had some service
23 that provided information to me, I think that it would be the duty of all
24 in this courtroom, the Prosecutors and the Judges, they would say: Yes,
25 which services? Why are you lying? I wanted to sound important, to
1 attach some importance to myself. It's a silly lie. When I say everyone
2 knows -- well, of course, this is the first time you hear it, but I say
3 everyone in Slavonia and Baranja knows, what kind of service? I had no
4 service. I heard about the suffering of Serbs in Zagreb through the Serb
5 media and some personal information from individuals, refugees who
6 returned. As for the suffering of Serbs in Vukovar, I heard about that
7 from the Serbs who had fled from Vukovar so ... so these were these
8 services of mine. My services. If I were to say now that I had some
9 service, I would be lying.
10 Q. Just like you were lying then, as you say, when you gave this
12 A. Well, I'm under oath here. And it doesn't really suit me to say
13 anything that is false or to lie. But, at that time, I was a politician.
14 I was making statements. You can call that a lie, but I just exaggerated
15 things. I wanted to point out how important this information I had was.
16 That was my intention. It wasn't my intention to lie.
17 Q. Well, Mr. Hadzic, you lie when it suits you. Just as you're
18 lying here today because you think it suits you to lie here today and to
19 minimise the level of your involvement and knowledge of what was going
20 on. Isn't that true?
21 A. Of course that's not true. If I said some information that was
22 wrong or exaggerated things a bit, that doesn't mean that that was my
23 intention. When somebody says that I destroyed mosques, I didn't say
24 that they were lying although it's obvious [Realtime transcript read in
25 error "often"] that that was not true.
1 Q. It also suited you in your role as prime minister of the SBWS
2 during this period to stoke hatred and to encourage violence with the
3 words that you're issuing here, no mercy, three times, as you said, and
4 already you're setting the stage for the events that occurred once
5 Vukovar fell and the prisoners were taken off to Ovcara, that is, the
6 punishment for misdeeds. Isn't that so?
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I notice in the last answer of
9 Mr. Hadzic in -- it is page 30, line 15, the word "often." As far as I
10 know he didn't mention this word at all.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Should we ask Mr. Hadzic to repeat his answer,
12 Mr. Zivanovic? Because I'm not quite sure I can make anything of it with
13 the word "often" or without the word "often."
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, he could repeat. Maybe we can read out
15 whole -- whole answer between lines 12 and --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. I'll read the answer.
17 Mr. Hadzic, you gave to Mr. Stringer's question:
18 "Of course, that is not true. If" --
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, of course -- he didn't use the word "often."
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment.
21 This is on the record: "Of course, that is not true. If I" --
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: "If I said some information that was wrong or
24 exaggerated things a bit, that doesn't mean that that was my intention.
25 When somebody says that I destroyed mosques, I didn't say that they were
1 lying although it's often that that was not true."
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, "often" is there unnecessarily.
3 I mean, I'm not impolite and I'm not saying that they lied. I am just
4 saying that it's not true. So it's a mistake. Very often this makes no
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: So your answer is: I do not -- I'm not saying
7 that they were lying although it is not true. That's your answer, right?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, correct.
9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Not to get too
10 technical but could I inquire whether the Registrar, whether these sorts
11 of interventions and clarifications are held against the Prosecution for
12 its time.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Registrar says yes, Mr. Stringer.
15 MR. STRINGER: It seems unfair.
16 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry about that, Mr. Stringer. A little
18 misunderstanding. The answer is no, it is not on your time.
19 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. I want to just move quickly here in the next few minutes before
21 the break, Mr. Hadzic. Continuing in the video, we can go back if you'd
22 like but you were asked about an appeal that you had made to all
23 able-bodied men to return their homes, join their comrades who were
24 already in the front. You were asked if the appeal was successful and
25 you said the appeal was successful in every way. So just to clarify, I
1 think I'm going to suggest to you that you're referring there to the
2 mobilisation order that you issued on the 23rd of August, 1991. We
3 looked at once before. We could look at it again if you want. It's
5 But could we agree there that you're referring to the
6 mobilisation order that you'd issued?
7 A. Well, that's possible, but you put a question to me and then my
8 lawyer intervened and then I didn't answer that question. And, in my
9 view, the conclusion that you drew is very wrong and I am really bothered
10 by that, and I cannot leave from here without explaining that.
11 You said that I stoked hatred and that I called for revenge and
12 that is totally contrary to what I had intended. I don't know whether
13 there's enough time for me to explain this before the break or should I
14 do it after the break because that's the question that you put and then
15 you moved on to a different question and then I didn't answer to --
16 answer this.
17 So if Their Honours remember --
18 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps it's best left for after the break because
19 I'm sure there will be some follow-up on that, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So we take the first break.
21 Court adjourned.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Please proceed.
1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I want to stay on the issue of the volunteers. We
3 just saw the videotape where you were on the news broadcast in Belgrade.
4 Actually, no. Before the break, we were going to continue with this
5 issue of your words that we just saw, the issue of what I called stoking
6 up the public. Here, in the video - three times as you said - saying
7 that there would be no mercy to those involved in, with blood on their
8 hands, as you said, I believe, those wallowing in the blood.
9 So you wanted to tell the Chamber what you meant when you were
10 talking like that. So please go ahead.
11 A. Thank you. I wanted to say that my intention was completely the
12 opposite of what the Prosecutor called stoking up. I'll be very brief.
13 I had relatively very little political experience. I had only
14 been active in my own village as the class president, et cetera. But I
15 realised from primary school that whenever somebody has a contrary
16 opinion, in order to get through to that person and to prove that he is
17 not right, I have to apparently agree at first in order to achieve my aim
18 and that is to persuade that person. So, in the beginning, I always made
19 a semblance of agreeing with that person but, at the end, I would say
20 that the criminals will be tried in the end and their guilt proven. I
21 didn't -- that's why I said, at first, that the criminals will be dealt
22 with without trial.
23 I'm sorry if somebody misunderstood this here, but I'm telling
24 you what my intention was.
25 Q. And just like before the recess, you indicated that you were
1 sorry if people who heard you talking about ancestors of the Western
2 Herzegovinians who had moved up into the SBWS region, you were sorry if
3 people interpreted your words about them to be some sort of an
4 incitement. So this is just another example that, as you say, you didn't
5 really mean what you were saying?
6 A. You abused my explanation, which was a general explanation. This
7 matter is completely different. I said I was sorry for the people who
8 hailed from Western Herzegovina and who were not Ustashas. Although we
9 know that from that region there were many people who were Ustashas. We
10 know very well who Ustashas were, who Hitler was, who were Fascists.
11 It's a completely different example. It has nothing to do with what I
12 meant to say.
13 Q. Well, despite the fact that your only experience in politics,
14 apparently, was being the class president, you knew full well the effect
15 that words like this would have on the listening public. Isn't that
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, but I didn't see any reference in the last
19 document or the video presented here about people from -- from Western
20 Herzegovina. He spoke about Croats but not particularly about the people
21 from Western Herzegovina. If I could see the reference.
22 MR. STRINGER: I'll provide a reference, Mr. President. I don't
23 have it handy. My recollection is that we spoke extensively with
24 Mr. Hadzic about a series of public statements he had made condemning
25 people, families, ancestors of those who had moved into the region from
1 Western Herzegovina during the Ante Pavelic time in 1941. That's what
2 I'm referring to.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know, it was some interview published
5 in -- on 4th September 1991. But in this particular document, he never
6 put any difference between Croats and -- Croats from Western Herzegovina.
7 In this video. I -- I didn't -- I didn't --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you sure [Microphone not activated]?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you sure?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In this particular video.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, without using the word "Herzegovina
13 Croats" --
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Western -- Croats from Western Herzegovina in
15 this particular document. I didn't see --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Overlapping speakers] -- didn't use that word in
17 this video. But unless I'm wrong, he made a difference between those who
18 lived in his region for centuries and the other ones.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If it was the reference to the Western
20 Herzegovina specifically. Or I don't know.
21 MR. STRINGER: I can try to clarify, Mr. President, or I'll put
22 it to Mr. Hadzic.
23 The video that we just saw, P58, it doesn't refer to Herzegovina
24 Croats. Here, he is referring to Croats with blood on their hands and
25 are wallowing in it and they will surely be held responsible for what
1 they did.
2 Now he says -- Mr. Hadzic has just testified that, if I may put it this
3 way -- well, the Chamber has heard what he has to say. I'm drawing a
4 connection between these sorts of words made here and what the
5 Prosecution views as similar incendiary-type language in the public
6 statements made before, that we discussed about before, involving his
7 condemnation and singling out of Herzegovina Croats.
8 So this is another example of Hadzic, of Mr. Hadzic inciting and
9 stoking violence against Croats, again, in his capacity as president of
10 the government of the SBWS.
11 Now, in this video, he is saying that:
12 "All Croats who stay in our region, all Croats living here for
13 years, will be able to stay with us in the Serb region."
14 Now, this is arguably, this is consistent with what he was saying
15 before, the statements about the Herzegovina Croats. The Chamber may
16 recall the earlier testimony about the distinction between those who had
17 always lived in the region, the more peaceful ones from the flatlands,
18 versus the more aggressive ones from the mountainous regions, such as
19 Dalmacija and Western Herzegovina. So there is a consistency here, but
20 it is all about stoking violence and inciting violence against Croats.
21 That's our point.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I understood, Mr. Hadzic spoke about
23 the people who had blood on their hands and about Ustasha nests,
24 et cetera, et cetera. He didn't mention any -- anyone from some
25 particular regions.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: The discussion is on the record now. Would you
2 like to have your client further questions -- questioned about this,
3 Mr. Zivanovic, or can we move on?
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We can move on, Your Honours. Thank you.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. STRINGER: I believe, Mr. President, that we need to go into
7 private session for the next exhibit, which is tab 1578 --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session. Private session, please.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 10454-10468 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. STRINGER: Could we have tab 760, please. 65 ter 1939.21.
1 Q. Isn't that true, Mr. Hadzic, that in July of 1991, the very
2 period we've been talking about here, you appointed Mr. Jovo Ostojic to
3 be the commander of the Volunteer Recruitment Centre at Prigrevica? This
4 document comes from Mr. Petrovic's book.
5 A. I don't remember that. And I think that no one consulted me
6 about this, if he had been appointed at all.
7 Q. Well, this is the same time that you were making the appointments
8 of the others, Mr. Malakovic, Mr. Kojic. And, here, what we see is that
9 you're also appointing Mr. Ostojic of the Volunteer Recruitment Centre in
10 Prigrevica. You don't recall that at all?
11 A. No. I remember Janko Malakovic and Ilija Kojic. I don't
12 remember that this existed at all.
13 Q. And so it's your evidence that you absolutely deny having
14 appointed Mr. Ostojic to be the commander of this training centre?
15 A. I think that this is the first time I hear of this. I don't know
16 whether this happened -- I mean, this is the first time I hear of this.
17 Q. Well, if you could just take a moment to think back, I'll ask you
18 one last time: Did you appoint Mr. Ostojic to be the commander of this
19 Prigrevica training centre?
20 A. I really do not remember that, and I don't remember that this
21 centre existed at all.
22 Q. Could we take from that that you actually deny having made this
23 appointment, you reject this document?
24 A. I think I did not do that, and I don't remember this at all, that
25 something functioned in that sense. Had that happened, I would have
2 Q. Let's go to tab 421 then, which is P143. This is from a
3 publication called "Velika Srbija."
4 "Velika Srbija" meaning great or Greater Serbia, is that -- is my
5 understanding of that correct, Mr. Hadzic?
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, but Velika Srbija could mean -- could be
8 translated either like great Serbia or Greater Serbia, not both.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Why?
10 MR. STRINGER: Well, that's why I asked Mr. Hadzic --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Why shouldn't we have waited for Mr. Hadzic's
12 response, Mr. Zivanovic? I mean, if you object to Mr. Hadzic performing
13 translation, then we could have asked the interpreters.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, it is just an issue of translation.
15 Nothing else.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please continue, Mr. Stringer.
17 MR. STRINGER:
18 Q. Well, just perhaps for -- to clarify it, I'll just read the words
19 and perhaps the interpreters could -- could give it to us back in
21 Velika Srbija.
22 THE INTERPRETER: It's either great Serb or Greater Serbia.
23 MR. STRINGER:
24 Q. And in paragraph 1, Mr. Hadzic, of this publication, it's
25 referring -- this document refers to the things done by this Kragujevac
1 Chetnik detachment. And again we see:
2 "It was sent on its first assignment to the command of the
3 Serbian Chetnik movement on 19 July, 1991. The detachment was to be
4 stationed in the village of Prigrevica with other volunteers from Serbia
5 and undergo supplementary training there."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. I see that.
8 Q. So, in fact, there was a training centre in Prigrevica where
9 volunteers, such as members of the Chetnik Movement, came and trained and
10 were staged before moving into Slavonia. True?
11 A. I don't have that information. From the information I had at the
12 time, all volunteers who came in arrived through the barracks called
13 Bubanj Potok in Belgrade. That's what I knew at the time. I don't know
14 about this. It's possible.
15 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1591, 65 ter 6518.
16 Q. We're going to go back in time just a little bit, Mr. Hadzic.
17 This is a poster for a peaceful resolution -- I should say, a
18 poster regarding -- to organise a rally for the peaceful resolution of
19 the crisis.
20 This is Jagodnjak on the 21st of April, and it's announcing
21 various persons who will speak. This is the Jagodnjak rally that we've
22 seen the film of at various times in the trial, isn't it, and which
23 Mr. Paroski made the statements about?
24 A. Yes, I remember that.
25 Q. And here, Mr. Seselj, we know from the video that he did speak.
1 We know that Milan Paroski did speak. Can he saw that on the video-clip.
2 You're listed as one of the speakers. Did you speak at this event?
3 A. No, I wasn't even there. I see this poster for the first time
4 now and my name on it. I wasn't invited, and, if I had been, I wouldn't
5 have gone.
6 Q. And Jovo Ostojic is also indicated as one of the speakers here,
7 as president of the Regional SDS Board for Backa. Do you see that?
8 A. I see that, but I cannot give evidence about that. I only know
9 as much as the rest of you. I don't know any more. I wasn't present
10 there, and nobody told me anything, in particular, about it.
11 Q. But you do know that he played a role in the SDS,
12 Serbian Democratic Party, at least as of this time. You already told us
13 that subsequently he moved over to the Serbian Radical Party. True?
14 A. I see now that he was in the Serbian Democratic Party, but he did
15 not emphasise his party membership. So, at that time, I didn't even know
16 it. But the board for Baranja was a separate board in parallel with the
17 Vukovar board, so they organised their rallies autonomously without
18 consulting anyone from Vukovar.
19 Q. Do you know when he switched and became a member of the
20 Serbian Radical Party?
21 A. I don't know. I have no clue. I never discussed Jovo Ostojic
22 with anyone. Never exchanged three words about Jovo Ostojic with anyone.
23 Didn't know anything about him.
24 Q. Just looking at some of the names on this document, Mr. Hadzic,
25 based on what we've seen and discussed, can we agree that Mr. Seselj,
1 Paroski, and Jovic were all personally involved in recruiting volunteers
2 who would come to fight in Croatia?
3 A. You said Seselj, Paroski, and Jovic? Those three names; right?
4 From what I know, they did organise volunteers. But that's information I
5 received subsequently.
6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender this, 65 ter 6518.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3225, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. STRINGER: And just to stay briefly for another minute or two
11 with Mr. Ostojic before the break, could we please have tab 1056, P3137.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. STRINGER: And that would be 65 ter 4921.8 for the
15 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] ... battle-field in Krajina. We
18 visited today another unit of volunteers that is protecting the borders
19 with Krajina, that during the last two years of war have been present at
20 every place where the Serbdom and the Orthodox faith have been
22 "One of the reasons of our visit was a successful operation
23 carried out several days ago in which 16 Ustashas were liquidated. On
24 this occasion, Serbian volunteers were visited by the commander of the
25 Main Staff of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, General Mile Novakovic,
1 and Minister Milan Martic. General Novakovic congratulated the soldiers
2 on the successful operation and stressed that their unit can be a role
3 model for all those who are defending Serbdom.
4 "Novakovic: Main Staff of the Serbian army especially
5 appreciates Serbian volunteers who came to these western parts of the
6 Serbian state to defend it, to try to defend and defend successfully
7 these people and these territories of ours. We appreciate you because we
8 know that you did not come here to fight because of some personal image
9 of yourself but because of some war glory of yours because of some
10 egocentric interests. We know that you came to fight for freedom and the
11 honour of Serbian people."
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We had no sound at all so
13 we don't know exactly where to stop.
14 MR. STRINGER: Okay. That's -- apologies for that. That's good
15 for now and then we'll continue, and we can even go back and replay it if
16 it would assist.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, just looking at the image in front of us, are you
18 able to recognise either of the two people on the left of the screen?
19 A. First one was the General Mile Novakovic. And the one with the
20 beard is Jovo Ostojic.
21 Q. And just for the record, tell us who was General Mile Novakovic?
22 What was his background and what was his function at this time.
23 A. He was an ex-colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army, hailing from
24 a village called Kirin in the region of Kordun, and he was the commander
25 of the Serbian Army of Krajina.
1 Q. You said he was an ex-colonel of the Yugoslav People's Army. In
2 fact, during the time that he was commander of the RSK army, he was still
3 on the payroll of the JNA, wasn't he?
4 A. I think he was. They talked about it, but I'm not sure. And I
5 tried to tell you more about him naming the village where he came from,
6 et cetera, because that's how I understood your question.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we could --
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think the answer of Mr. Hadzic is not correctly
10 transcribed. If he could repeat it.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you repeat your last answer, Mr. Hadzic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood when the Prosecutor
13 asked who he was and where he hailed from, I gave a broader answer,
14 saying where he was born and that he was an ex-colonel of the
15 Yugoslav People's Army. I wasn't talking about the position he was
16 occupying when he was photographed here.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, for the clarification, it would be useful
18 to -- to read both the question and his answer between lines 19 and 24.
19 It could be done by the Prosecution or by me or anybody else.
20 MR. STRINGER: I can try to clarify it, Mr. President, although
21 it's time for the break.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is actually the second sentence in the
23 response of Mr. Hadzic.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: What do you take as the second -- sorry. The
25 second sentence is which one? They talked about it.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated] They talked about it.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: But I'm not sure. And did he say something else?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, he said they didn't talk about it.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, Mr. Hadzic. Did they talk about it or
5 didn't they talk about it? About -- about the fact --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said we didn't discuss it. I
7 didn't ask him who was paying his salary. We didn't ask any personal
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
10 Time for the break. Court adjourned.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Hadzic, we were told that you have a question
14 for us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A short technical matter. When
16 will I have the right to see my lawyers? At the end, when the Prosecutor
17 finishes? Or at the end of the redirect? I don't know at which stage we
18 are. I don't know who the first witness will be. I have no information
19 whatsoever these days.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Hadzic, Mr. Zivanovic, I -- I thought that
21 the directions we gave were clear enough to let you know that you can
22 have -- you, Mr. Hadzic, can have contact with Defence counsel for the
23 preparation of other witnesses. As from now, there is no ban on that
24 kind of contact.
25 So if it is not -- it is not about the substance of your
1 testimony -- of your own testimony, there's no problem at all.
2 Is this helpful?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. But when will I have no
4 normal contact with my Defence counsel? Do I have to wait until the end
5 of the re-direct or when the Prosecutor finishes? Because I'm not a
6 lawyer, all these things are not so clear to me.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: That is when you step down from the
8 witness-stand, Mr. Hadzic, and that would be after re-direct.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're welcome.
11 Mr. Stringer.
12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, just before the break, we were looking at the video
14 and talking about the video that showed General Novakovic and
15 Mr. Ostojic, and let's just play another part of that and then we can
16 move on.
17 MR. STRINGER: I believe the interpreters should still have it
19 THE INTERPRETER: Which one was it could you remind us.
20 MR. STRINGER: That was P3137 --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
22 MR. STRINGER: Okay.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The Serbian volunteers who arrived
25 in these western parts of the Serbian land to defend these people and our
1 territories. We appreciate you because we know that you did not come
2 here to fight because of some personal image of yours, because of some
3 war glory, because of some egotistic interests of yours. We know that
4 you came here to fight for the freedom and honour of the Serbian people.
5 "Reporter: Vojvoda duke Jovo Ostojic, who is at the head of this
6 elite unit, appealed to all the Serbs who have not yet done so to join in
7 the ranks of the defence, because Serbdom is defended in neither Belgrade
8 nor Knin. It is defended everywhere where Serbs are attacked. Amongst
9 Serbian volunteers there are members of all political parties but none of
10 them are at this moment interested in politics. They're all fighting
11 under the single command of the Main Staff of the Army of the Republic of
12 Serbian Krajina.
13 "Ostojic: The motto of our soldiers is patriotism and freedom of
14 the Serbian people and there is nothing else. We wish to defend Serbian
15 lands. We want to defend Serbian children and Serbian mothers and to
16 deal with the Ustasha devils in a soldierly and heroic manner. And I
17 would send them the following message: Let them not touch young
18 children. Let them be man enough and let them stand in the battle-field.
19 Let them choose their own weapon. We are ready. It is very difficult
20 for us, for me. Here there are Croatian women and children and not a
21 hair on their heads must be touched while they thrust knives into our
22 children and cut their throats."
23 MR. STRINGER:
24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, just to round this off, you were aware, since you
25 were president of the republic, that Mr. Ostojic led a group of Chetniks,
1 volunteers out and fought as part of the RSK armed forces then. You are
2 aware of that; correct?
3 A. There were many volunteers. I don't specifically remember that.
4 Nobody reported that to me, in particular. I know that when Maslenica
5 was attacked, hundreds and thousands of men came to defend that part of
7 Q. I take it then that if I were to suggest to you that, as it's
8 indicated here, he's leading a group of volunteers fighting in RSK, you
9 would not dispute that?
10 A. No, no. I'm not disputing that. That's true.
11 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 685, P2685.
12 Q. And this has already been referred to by you, I belive, already,
13 Mr. Hadzic, and it's already in evidence this document, which is to tie
14 this off. This is 13th of May, 1993, central homeland administration of
15 the Serbian Chetnik movement, and if you go to the bottom of the document
16 you see that it appears over the name of Mr. Vojislav Seselj. These are
17 appointments, and if we go to page 5, item 13, beginning of the bottom of
18 this page and then we'll continue to the next page. According to this,
19 then -- and this is Dr. Seselj appointing Mr. Jovo Ostojic to be a
20 Serbian Chetnik Vojvoda. That is a duke; correct? You knew about this
21 at some point.
22 A. I'm giving you second- or third-hand evidence. I just heard
23 about it. I believe it's true.
24 Q. And then it says here. And it may be necessary to move to the
25 next page that he -- actually, may be necessary to move to the next page
1 of yours in B/C/S. I think we're okay in English. But it says that he
2 organised and prepared Chetnik volunteer units across Backa and then
3 personally led them in the war-effected territories or Slavonia, Baranja,
4 and Western Srem. You do know that that was, in fact, what was taking
5 place at the time during the conflict in 1991, don't you? He was among
6 those of the Chetnik movement fighting in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western
8 A. I knew that he was in Palaca village, I think, close to Osijek,
9 in co-ordination with the JNA, that is to say, as part of the Yugoslav
10 People's Army, and he had with him a number of his friends from
12 Q. So you knew that he came from Prigrevica with others?
13 A. I heard about -- from Milan Milanovic, Mrgud.
14 Q. Do you know what units of the JNA Mr. Ostojic fought with in this
15 Osijek region?
16 A. It's territory of the former Osijek municipality. He was
17 defending the Serbian village of Palaca. It was some units which was
18 part of the Osijek brigade, I believe, but it was totally under the
19 command of the JNA, integrated into the JNA.
20 Q. So this would eventually be JNA forces that were under the
21 command of General Biorcevic?
22 A. I don't know whether it was at the beginning or at the end, but
23 it was in that sector where Commander Biorcevic was. You're right.
24 Q. So it would have been Bratic or Biorcevic, depending on the
1 A. Yes, with the proviso that Biorcevic was Chief of Staff to Bratic
2 so the two were there at the same time. But I didn't know it at the
3 time. I learned it later.
4 Q. Right. And then we talked about this earlier in your cross. I
5 can't recall the date offhand, but then I believe it was in October
6 General Bratic was killed, and at that point General Biorcevic replaced
7 him. True?
8 A. Yes, that's true.
9 Q. I'd like now to go back to the video P0058, which we looked at at
10 the beginning of this section just to follow up on one last thing before
11 we move on. And we're actually going to -- if we make take a moment to
12 try to skip forward because I don't think we need to replay the whole
13 thing again.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we please have the
15 65 ter number. Thank you.
16 MR. STRINGER: 4873.2. Let's just start it from the beginning
17 and let it run and then we can stop.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Well, the situation is much clearer
20 from a military point of view. We have a big part of free liberated
21 territory in our area, that is, the whole of Baranja, Western Srem from
22 Vinkovci in the direction of Sid, and bigger part of this Osijek field,
23 that is, the territory between Osijek and Vukovar. Vukovar is
24 currently blocked. We expect denouement of the situation in Vukovar any
25 day. We are capable of dealing with this quickly but we are thinking of
1 human lives and taking care that this would be done slowly and securely
2 with as little casualties as possible. That is, we do not want any
4 "Anchor: Do you have information on events in Vukovar? Do you
5 have information on Serb people in Zagreb? All communication lines are
6 down. There is no phone connection. People cannot talk to their
8 "Goran Hadzic: As I said, I am not concerned with military
9 issues. I am positive a final solution will follow. I am, however,
10 concerned about the information I personally received from some of our
11 services. They tell me what the situation in Zagreb is, and we know what
12 happened in Vukovar, mass crime against the civilian population. We will
13 interrogate perpetrators and bring them to court, national court. I am
14 certain they will be punished accordingly for their misdeeds. It is no
15 use whining. This is neither asked nor expected of us. Serbs never
16 whined. Serbs should fight and we will fight to protect their people.
17 "Anchor: You have already appealed to all able-bodied men to
18 return to their homes and join their comrades who are already at the
19 front line. Was the appeal successful?
20 "Goran Hadzic: The appeal was successful in every way. A number
21 of our combatants who fled now returned. They are now fighting in first
22 lines. We also called volunteers from Serbia, irrespective of their
23 party, Serbs to join our ranks and fight with Serb insignia for the
24 imperiled Serb people. They came. I will take this opportunity to thank
25 all of them who came to fight. The group from Belgrade stands out. They
1 are always in the first combat lines. They fight and get killed, just
2 like us, but we are not hesitant to go all the way and win.
3 "Anchor: What do you think? Those of you who are in the field?
4 What is the actual condition ..."
5 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the last follow-up questions on this video, then,
7 are, first of all, you say: "We also call volunteers from Serbia."
8 When you say "we," you're referring to yourself and who else?
9 A. I mean the Serbs from Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, the
10 government, and myself, all of us who were born there.
11 Q. And that would include the efforts made by you and Mr. Kojic
12 on -- in this regard. I asked you questions about that earlier.
13 A. Well, I've already given you an answer. I don't know if you
14 understood what I said. I said that I never dealt with volunteers or the
15 organisation of the transfer of volunteers, and I said I may have just
16 given political statements about that and nothing else. So that should
17 be in the record.
18 Q. When you say and refer here to the group from Belgrade that
19 stands out, are you referring to the volunteers such as those coming from
20 the -- the Radical Party, the Chetnik Movement, among others?
21 A. Well, I'll tell you specifically what this is about. Passing
22 from Dalj towards Erdut, I saw a very painful thing. When a group of
23 regular reservists from Kragujevac --
24 Q. I apologise to cut across you here, but I'm just asking you
25 simply tell us what groups did you have in mind when you referred to
1 those from Belgrade. What you say: "The group from Belgrade stands
3 Who you are referring to?
4 A. The group that had come from the Bubanj Potok barracks in
5 Belgrade that took the place of those from Kragujevac who had cast away
6 their weapons and who were lying there by the road. That's what I was
7 trying to tell you about. And they had come as their replacement in
8 order to fight. And these men from Kragujevac were members of the party
9 of Vuk Draskovic, the SPO, the Serbian Renewal Movement.
10 Q. Serbian Renewal, Serbian Chetnik, these are also groups that were
11 coming across based on the work being done by General Pekic from what
12 we've seen. Isn't that true?
13 A. Well, I think this specifically what we're talking about is not
14 correct because it was first these regular reservists from Kragujevac who
15 had been mobilised in a regular way, and they were mostly supporters of
16 Vuk Draskovic, and they had defeatist attitudes toward the JNA and so on.
17 Whereas these people who came from Bubanj Potok came from the JNA. I
18 don't know who had mobilised them, but I just know that the JNA gave them
19 uniforms and weapons.
20 Q. We had looked earlier at P2685, Mr. Hadzic. We can go back and
21 take a look but maybe we don't need to. This was the document of
22 Dr. Seselj where he appointed Ostojic to be the Serbian duke. We just
23 looked at this a few minutes ago.
24 The question is: In item 10 of this, is where he also points a
25 person named Milan Lancuzanin, also known as Kameni, to be a Serbian
1 Chetnik Vojvoda. We can take a look, but would you accept if I suggested
2 to you that Dr. Seselj also appointed Mile Lancuzanin as a Serbian duke?
3 A. Yes, I accept that.
4 Q. And he was the leader of a group of Chetnik volunteers who fought
5 in the Petrova Gora area of Vukovar during the conflict. Is that also
7 A. He is from Vukovar, but I think that he fought in the area of
8 Leva Supoderica. And that is what is written here. That's a bit further
9 away from Petrova Gora but it's similar.
10 Q. In any event, the name of the unit that he led was called
11 Leva Supoderica?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I read your testimony in Belgrade, back in 2003, when you
14 testified in the trial of Mr. Miroljub Vujovic, and at that time you
15 indicated that you knew Mile Lancuzanin but you knew his father better
16 because, as you said, they were from Vukovar; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. But I did not testify in Belgrade. I gave a statement to
18 the investigating judge in Novi Sad.
19 Q. You're correct on that. It's Novi Sad proceedings against
20 Miroljub Vujovic. That would be the 30th of September, 2003. Does that
21 sound correct?
22 A. I don't know the exact date, but I think it was 2003, yes.
23 Q. And just to round this off, you've already said it but just to
24 make sure it's clear. When you've talked about the volunteers that you
25 were aware of, it's my understanding, Mr. Hadzic, that in your view all
1 the volunteers were under a unified chain of command within the JNA
2 structure. Is that a correct way of putting it?
3 A. You put that well. And that's the only way it could have been.
4 It couldn't have been any different.
5 Q. And that would also include the Leva Supoderica under the command
6 of Mile Lancuzanin?
7 A. At the time when these things happened in 1991, I didn't know
8 anything about Lancuzanin or that unit. However, I found out later that
9 this was under the command of the JNA as part of the Guards Brigade from
11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I want to come back to a document that we've talked
12 about earlier. This is 1D03600, which is tab 97. This is the press
13 article that we tried to talk about, and I want to come back to it.
14 Do you remember this one?
15 A. Yes, yes, I remember, we talked about it today and we tried
16 yesterday but we didn't have the right translation. Yes, yes, I
18 Q. And in connection with this, we also spoke about an article,
19 D118, which is from three days earlier, 13 July 1991, and we've actually
20 made a blow-up of it which might be more legible or readable for you.
21 MR. STRINGER: And with the Chamber's permission, perhaps we
22 could give it to the witness. Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 MR. STRINGER:
25 Q. This was the article that you referred to during your direct
1 examination that came in. Remember this?
2 A. [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I remember, yes. But I did not see it
3 so I could not read it. Could you now tell me which part I should look
5 Q. Well, before we look at specifics, let's just sort of set the
6 context again because you had talked about this on direct. This is in
7 mid-July 1991 and, as I understand it, journalists, both foreign and
8 domestic, had made it into Borovo Selo and were writing some articles and
9 talking to people who were present, including yourself, and including
10 Vitomir Devetak; is that correct?
11 A. Well, I don't know. I did not see that when Devetak talked to
12 them. I was not next to him when he was giving that statement. I see
13 here that that is what he said.
14 Q. Right. I believe in your direct testimony you looked at this
15 article and -- and you -- well, looking at it now, starting with the last
16 part where it says "no reconciliation." This is page 2 of the English.
17 It refers to a press conference that you gave. You said:
18 "There would be no reconciliation with the government in Zagreb.
19 We're in favour of a peaceful and democratic way out of the crisis but
20 two sides are necessary for dialogue."
21 See that?
22 A. Yes. As opposed to the interpreter, I can see it and read it.
23 Q. And then that's followed by some remarks given by Mr. Kojic who
24 also made a statement here; correct?
25 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
1 Q. So if the earlier part of the -- the -- the article refers to
2 statements by Mr. Devetak, are you challenging or disputing that he was
3 also interviewed by the journalists?
4 A. Well, it's not that I have an opinion on that. Anybody can say
5 whatever. I cannot confirm it or deny it. Can you give your opinion
6 too, just as I can. I don't know anything about this.
7 Q. So the only thing about this article that you accept or adopt is
8 the statement, the quote, that's attributed to you? Everything else you
9 cannot affirm or deny?
10 A. Well, I'm not even sure that there was a press conference. Maybe
11 I just gave a brief statement. Had it been a press conference, it
12 probably would have involved a longer statement on my part. But that we
13 were in favour of peace and a peaceful way out of the crisis, I agree
14 with that. That was my position.
15 Q. Going back to now the other document, the other article, which is
16 1D3600. You see that, Mr. Hadzic?
17 A. The one on the screen? Yes, if that's what you mean. Because I
18 cannot tell by its number.
19 Q. All right. The one on the screen -- and if we could scroll to
20 the right-hand side. There.
21 What we see is a photograph. Are you able to describe -- can we
22 agree that's you and another person?
23 A. We can agree.
24 Q. This says it's Milan Babic in Borovo Selo. Was Milan Babic with
25 you in Borovo Selo during this period, July 1991? I'm sorry, it doesn't
1 say. It refers to Babic. I stand corrected.
2 The question is: Who is the person standing next to you, if you
4 A. It looks like Ilija Kojic to me, but the picture seems to be
6 Q. And do you recall an occasion of speaking to the press in Borovo,
7 as indicated here, in July of 1991?
8 A. Well, in Borovo Selo, I talked to at least 30 journalists at
9 different points in time. This I cannot remember. I don't think I
10 talked to this journalist from the Croatian paper "Danas." I would have
11 remembered talking to a Croatian journalist. There were Serbian
12 journalists, and there were also foreign journalists. I even remember
13 this journalist from Japan that I talked to.
14 Q. What's interesting to me, Mr. Hadzic, is this. The caption of
15 the video -- of the photo, after referring to you as the Slavonian Babic,
16 which I don't know whether you would take kindly to or not, it says
17 that -- it's saying "Goran Hadzic announcing the impending uprising of
18 all Slavonian Serbs in Borovo Selo."
19 Do you see that?
20 A. I see that.
21 Q. And at that time, in July of 1991, in Borovo, isn't that what you
22 did? Didn't you make a statement, at least one statement, in which you
23 referred to an impending uprising of the Serb people?
24 A. Not in this negative context as somebody wanted to portray it in
25 the newspapers that were on the opposite side then, opposite to me, my
1 policy and my people, after all, and that carried a great deal of false
2 information about our side. At that time, there was an information war
3 going on.
4 Q. Well, in what context, then, if you could just tell the Chamber,
5 what context, then, would you have referred to an impending uprising?
6 What would be your reason for making a statement about that?
7 A. Well, when speaking of the month of July, I can remember now the
8 problems that we had. On the 7th of July, Tenja was attacked, and a
9 great many casualties were avoided at one point. The Croats almost
10 massacred an entire village. They barely defended themselves. Mirkovci
11 was attacked as well, and they were constantly under attack.
12 In a way, I was asking the federal state for help. The
13 Presidency of the SFRY. I asked the JNA for protection. And I also
14 asked the people who were supposed to protect us under oath. I said that
15 we sought their help because otherwise the Serb people could not defend
16 themselves on their own. I mean the Serb people in Slavonia, Baranja,
17 and Western Srem, whereas that has nothing to do with this comment in the
19 Q. Now if we go back to D118.
20 MR. STRINGER: If we could please put that up.
21 Q. And, Mr. Hadzic, this is the hard copy that you've got.
22 I want to go back to the passages that are attributed to you and
23 then to Ilija Kojic. So this would be page 2 of the English.
24 The statement attributed here to Mr. Kojic, and this is -- well,
25 before we get to that, this is "Politika." This is a publication that
1 you've got more confidence in, I take it; correct?
2 A. Well, from this angle now, 20 years later, not much more because
3 the Serb and Croatian side did not have a fair or correct attitude, more
4 or less, towards the things that were happening.
5 Q. This is a Serbian journalist, Mr. Rade Rankovic, writing this.
6 A. I don't know him. Never heard of him.
7 Q. Does it seem to you that he's a Serb, Serbian, or Serb
8 journalist? Based on his name.
9 A. Well, based on his name, I'm almost sure he is.
10 Q. What is interesting, Mr. Hadzic, is that here Mr. Kojic, in this
11 article, in statements attributed to him in which he is referring to the
12 same thing. He says that: "If the terror against the Serbian population
13 in the Osijek area and elsewhere does not stop, a general uprising of the
14 people may be expected."
15 Now in 3600, the other document, we've got the photograph of the
16 two of you standing there being interviewed. My question is which one of
17 you made that statement about a general uprising?
18 A. This is a very interesting thing that you've said just now, as we
19 were being photographed as we are making a statement. They took a
20 picture of us as we were strolling after that. How do you know that they
21 were taking a picture of us as we were being interviewed? Give me an
22 answer to that and then I'll answer.
23 Q. It's not a coincidence, Mr. Hadzic, that in one of the articles,
24 the one under the -- the -- the caption under the photograph with you and
25 Mr. Kojic there's reference to an uprising. And then we see the same
1 reference, although attributed to Mr. Kojic, in your article, the one you
2 tendered into evidence, D116.
3 I'm asking you: Who made the statement about an uprising, or did
4 both of you?
5 A. I cannot speak in the name of Ilija Kojic. I do not remember
6 that I said that. And as for this article that we had tendered into
7 evidence, as you say, I don't see that the journalist quoted me. It is
8 written as a caption underneath a photograph, but I did not say that.
9 Now whether Ilija Kojic said that, maybe did he, and maybe he didn't. I
10 don't know.
11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender this article, D3600, into
12 evidence. It's our position that there's sufficient corroboration as
13 between the two articles, overlap in respect of this issue, and we tender
14 it for purposes of the text that's attributed to Mr. Hadzic under the
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3226, Your Honours.
18 MR. STRINGER:
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, on the 8th of July, 2004 - and this was in private
20 session so I'm going to be careful but it may be necessary to go into
21 private session, Mr. President, we'll see - you spoke about a trip that
22 you took to Novi Sad.
23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I do believe we need to go into
24 private session.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
1 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 MR. STRINGER: This is page 9559.
13 Q. You were asked:
14 "Q. Was there any discussion on that occasion about weaponry and
15 the various places where it was stored in SBWS?"
16 And your answer was:
17 "We asked if he could be of assistance to us, if he could direct
18 us to somebody who could supply us with weapons, because we had a lot of
19 personnel and very few weapons."
20 Do you recall that?
21 A. [No interpretation].
22 Q. Now this is in late July of 1991, and what I'd like to point out
23 to you and ask your reaction is to suggest that as of this point in time,
24 you're meeting with Mandaric regarding obtaining weapons, regarding your
25 meeting with retired General Pekic regarding weapons, we know in the fall
1 of 1991 you're in the Ministry of Defence, General Simovic with Arkan,
2 asking for weapons. That's the evidence we got from General Djordjevic.
3 So if seems to me, Mr. Hadzic, that you devoted a significant
4 amount of time in your capacity as president of the SBWS, or its
5 government, or here in July as a member of the Serbian National Council
6 to help to obtain weapons and to arm Serbs in Eastern Slavonia. Is that
8 A. Unfortunately, that's not true. I would have liked for my
9 efforts to have been more successful but, unfortunately, I didn't achieve
10 anything except this little thing with Pekic.
11 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 186, P2987. This is a
12 report coming from Novi Sad Television, and in the English, we're looking
13 at the right-hand column where it says: Councils expect decisive attacks
14 by Serbs, 24 July 1991.
15 Q. In the fifth paragraph here, Mr. Hadzic, it says:
16 "Because of the aggravated political situation, the Executive
17 Committee of the National Council for SBWS met in Borovo Selo last night.
18 In a statement for Novi Sad Radio and Television, Hadzic, president of
19 the government, stressed that armed Serbs are still on defensive but they
20 will soon launch a decisive attack. Their aim is to liberate themselves
21 from the revived Ustasha authorities ..."
22 And then it continues down and the last sentence reads:
23 "This will be much sooner and will last for a much shorter time
24 than even the greatest optimists expect, Hadzic thinks."
25 Now, do you recall the meeting in Borovo Selo that's referred to
1 here? Meeting of the Serbian National Council.
2 A. I remember that we met at one point in Borovo Selo, but I can't
3 remember the subject of that meeting. I don't think the journalist
4 quoted it very well. I think he added some of his own opinions.
5 Q. But you do agree, or do you dispute the statement that's
6 attributed here where you indicated that the Serbs would soon launch a
7 decisive attack?
8 A. I gave at least ten such statements within a month or two, within
9 ten days even. And I meant the events about Vukovar, the attacks on the
10 barracks, and the provocations and the shelling of Borovo Selo, and this
11 was more of a threat for them to stop it.
12 Q. Well, in fact, what is happening here we know -- this is
13 because - I'm going to suggest to you - this is consistent with the
14 statement that's attributed to you in the newspaper article we just saw,
15 which was 1D3600.
16 You're making these statements because you, in fact, know that
17 the Serb uprising, or the liberation, the attack, is forthcoming, and
18 that's the attack in Dalj that occurred on the 1st of August, and, in
19 fact, your statements on this point are linked directly to the coming
20 assault on Dalj that occurred on that day.
21 A. That is not true. First of all, I didn't know about the
22 forthcoming attack on Dalj. And regardless of my IQ and my common sense,
23 I'm not so stupid that just before the attack on Dalj, I would announce
24 it to the journalists. I'm not that crazy.
25 Q. And, in fact, this is also linked then to your need to travel to
1 Novi Sad and to meet with Mandaric during this very same time-period.
2 They're all linked together, aren't they?
3 A. That's not true, and it's not true for several reasons. I said
4 that I went to see Mandaric for the formal reason of discussing
5 something, including weapons, but the main reason was to leave from
6 Borovo Selo with somebody in a high position because people had already
7 started accusing of me doing nothing, so I wanted to be seen as doing
8 something. And I also needed a driver so I took somebody with me.
9 Mandaric's office was not the place where you could discuss anything
10 serious. Mandaric did not belong to the Command of the JNA, nor did I
11 have any contact with any operative commanders in the JNA, people who
12 decided anything.
13 Q. I'd like to move to now tab 1047. This is the video footage of
14 the visit of Mr. Kostic we looked at yesterday, although we're going to
15 play a bit more of it. This is P241. 65 ter 4895.1.
16 THE INTERPRETER: We've got it.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Vice-President of the Presidency,
19 Branko Kostic, visited Borovo Selo today. Talking to the citizens,
20 Kostic stated, among other things, that those defending their homes
21 cannot be called bandits or terrorists. He criticised the federal
22 government for what he called insufficient support for the refugees and
23 he positively evaluated the role of the JNA. 'You people in Borovo Selo
24 can count on the support of the Presidency and other federal organs. The
25 fact that they call you Chetniks and terrorists is absolutely without
1 foundation,' Kostic emphasised. 'You are only self-organised and armed
2 people.' In Branko Kostic's view, Croatian and Slovenian secessionists
3 policies can either be tolerated nor accepted. Should such unilateral
4 acts be accepted, at least 70 states could be created in Europe.
5 "Reporter: As you can see, ladies and gentlemen, several hundred
6 citizens welcomed Branko Kostic, vice-president, of the Yugoslav
7 Presidency and Brana Crncevic in Borovo Selo.
8 "Branko Kostic: I visited Vucji Dol yesterday, one of the
9 shrines of our history. I regard you, here, as offspring of those heros
10 who were always ready throughout our history to defend both their homes
11 and their freedom. Keep it up and be brave.
13 "Some of my colleagues, and you know who I mean, call you
14 outlaws, Chetniks, terrorists. I always reply to that that the outlaws
15 are the ones who violated the Yugoslav constitution and passed unilateral
16 decrees, not you who are fighting for that constitution and that
18 "Brana Crncevic: Mr. Kostic said what's important. The most important part
19 is what he said at the end: rest assured that you are not alone, and if
20 you are bandits, then there are other bandits who will come to defend you.
21 "Reporter: After the warm welcome in Borovo Selo, vice-president
22 of the Yugoslav Presidency, Branko Kostic, met the leadership of the
23 Serbian Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,
24 Goran Hadzic, president of the National Council, briefed him on the
25 current situation in the area.
1 "Goran Hadzic: These people are neither Chetniks, nor
2 terrorists, nor are they bandits. This is Serb folks, and I can now say
3 a part of the honourable Croatian population is with us. They are with
4 us there at the barricades. They do not recognise Ustashas' authorities
5 and they do not wish to experience genocide as we suffered it 50 years
7 "Reporter: Among other things, Branko Kostic stated that we are
8 faced with a frenzied ideology in Croatia conceived as far back as 50
9 years ago.
10 "Branko Kostic: These policies are still fresh in our memory of
11 both Europe and the world. I was convinced -- I am convinced that today,
12 too, both Europe and the world will finally grasp the implications of
13 that policy, as well as the fatal consequences that policy must bring
14 about, not only for the Serb people in the area of Croatia that are most
15 directly at risk but also the consequences such policies might bring
16 about elsewhere in Europe. Our federal organs, particularly the federal
17 Executive Council, have by now failed dismally as we are dealing here
18 with an area at risk where it is the Serb people who are suffering.
19 However, both in this and in all of the other cases, the federal
20 Executive Council must be fully and financially responsible for it,
21 regardless of the ethnic affiliation of the population overtaken by
22 misfortune. We shall do everything to have that Yugoslav People's Army
23 of ours, which is strong and powerful, which has sufficient manpower and
24 weapons, offer assistance and support to all people who become endangered
25 or are endangered already. Regardless of their whereabouts. Today, it
1 is the Serb people in the area of Croatia that are at risk. If the
2 events unfold the way none of us would like them to, we cannot rule out
3 the possibility of other parts of other nations to become endangered in
4 certain other areas. Our army must be that power and that national army
5 in the proper sense of the word that will protect each and every of our
6 citizens at risk, regardless of their nationality or religion or
7 political commitment."
8 MR. STRINGER:
9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the visit of Branko Kostic to Borovo Selo just two
10 days before the JNA operation at Dalj was no coincidence, was it? This
11 visit is linked together with the statements you have made publicly about
12 a Serb uprising, your trip to see Mandaric. This is all part of the
13 events taking place just in advance of the Serb -- sorry, the JNA attack
14 on Dalj. Isn't that true?
15 A. I will limit myself to saying no. To be polite.
16 Q. You came back to Borovo Selo to accompany Mr. Kostic at this
17 event, didn't you?
18 A. Where do you mean, I came back from?
19 Q. I believe earlier in your testimony you indicated that you
20 weren't spending a lot of time in the SBWS or in Croatia. You were
21 spending most of your time in Serbia but that you came back specifically
22 because of this.
23 A. I heard in the interpretation "came back."
24 Yes, I came there because I knew Branko Kostic would be visiting.
25 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'm ready to move on to another
1 topic, but if I could suggest breaking a few minutes early because it's
2 going to be somewhat involved. Not good to start.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: No problem, Mr. Stringer. We will adjourn for
4 the day and come back tomorrow morning at 9.00.
5 Mr. Hadzic, still under oath. Thank you.
6 Court adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
9 August, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.