Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10594

 1                           Thursday, 28 August 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

15     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case Manager,

16     Thomas Laugel; legal intern, Ljubica Vukcevic.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, and legal intern,

21     Ruzica Ciric.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             Coming back to the scheduling issue we discussed yesterday,

24     Mr. Zivanovic, I take it your first witness after Mr. Hadzic is due to

25     come on Wednesday; is that correct?


Page 10595

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 3             Mr. Stringer, we had -- we had a little difference in the time of

 4     your cross, 30 or 32, and I checked, you're right, it will be 32.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             On that topic, it's possible that I misspoke yesterday when I

 7     indicated that the Prosecution didn't intend to ask for any additional

 8     time.  I went back last night and looked over the remainder of the

 9     cross-examination outline and I just wanted to inform the Chamber and the

10     Defence that obviously we would have a much better idea at the end of

11     today where we stand, but it's possible that the Prosecution may be

12     requesting the Chamber grant some small amount of additional time for the

13     cross-examination.  So I just wanted to bring that to your attention now.

14     Also for the Defence.  Obviously we know more at the end of the day.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You would rather disappoint us, Mr. Stringer,

16     because when -- when -- saying that you have 32 hours, the -- the Chamber

17     is already generous.  But we'll see.

18             Please continue, Mr. Stringer.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   First I need to go back to one of the documents that I omitted to

Page 10596

 1     ask you about yesterday that related to the issue of the SBWS judicial

 2     court documents that we were discussing.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  And on that, if we could please have 65 ter 6561,

 4     and this is at tab 1718.

 5        Q.   And as that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, we -- I can tell that you

 6     that this relates to the assertion that you've made that you never

 7     interfered in judicial proceedings.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry.  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I just like to inform the Chamber

10     that it is one of the documents disclosed to us during the summer break,

11     summer recess, sorry.  And I'd -- I propose that this document be done

12     to -- to -- to Mr. Hadzic, to read it completely and after that, to

13     response -- respond to the Prosecution's questions.  Maybe during the

14     break, during the break or something like that.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

16             MR. STRINGER:  It turns out with this one, Mr. President, I don't

17     have the B/C/S copy with me that normally I do to hand to Mr. Hadzic.

18             Perhaps what I could do is just try to go through it with him.

19     It's not a lengthy document.  Well, it's two pages.  Yes, what we'll do

20     is put the B/C/S -- we'll get a B/C/S hard copy into the courtroom, and

21     we can give it to Mr. Hadzic for the break.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, at the end of yesterday's proceedings, we were

25     talking about the Velepromet, the 20th of November, and we had looked at

Page 10597

 1     the video footage of you and other people there at the Velepromet

 2     facility.  And I want to go back to that briefly.  We don't need to look

 3     again at the video.  But I want to ask you about the issue of -- the fact

 4     that you were wearing a uniform, not only here but we've seen in many of

 5     the images, photographs, and videos that you wore a uniform throughout

 6     this period.  And you were asked about this, actually, when you testified

 7     as a Defence witness in the Dokmanovic case, and that would be tab 830,

 8     65 ter 2320, at page 3088.

 9             And at page 3088 of -- we see that you said:

10             "No, I just wore the uniform for practical reasons because

11     there's no electricity, no water, and I had to wear something to blend in

12     with the environment, the atmosphere.  Everybody wore some kind of

13     uniform."

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   I've received the interrogation.  That's all right.  It's in

16     keeping with what I think now too, why I wore that uniform.  I can

17     explain.

18        Q.   Well, let me just put it to you, then, in fact, you wore the

19     uniform because you were making a statement about your support for the --

20     and perhaps even signalling a -- a membership or an alignment with the

21     military forces that were in Vukovar as opposed to your civilian status.

22     Wasn't there a message that you were sending by wearing a uniform?

23        A.   Well, that was not a message.  This is the first time I hear that

24     kind of thinking.  I wore a uniform for practical reasons.  And it wasn't

25     possible for me to change suits or iron shirts and practically everybody

Page 10598

 1     wore a uniform then.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, the next exhibit would be a

 3     video-clip.  It's a short one.  It's actually a sub-clip.  It's a smaller

 4     part of a larger clip that we'll be talking about in a few more minutes.

 5     So it's part of tab 1007 which is Exhibit P1731, and we've marked this as

 6     65 ter 4809.1.  And we will need interpretation so if the booth could

 7     inform us when they're ready.  Sorry, 4809.7.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have found it.  Thank

 9     you.

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   As that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, what this is is what we've all

12     referred to, I think, throughout the trial is the Sid video.  Does this

13     appear to be the -- at least part of the video of the interview that you

14     gave in Sid after having left Velepromet on the 20th of November?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes, sorry.  Yes, yes.

16        Q.   And before we go ahead, just while we've got your image there on

17     the screen, I wanted to ask you about the pin that's on your beret with

18     the colours red, blue, and white moving from top to bottom.  Are those

19     colours signifying the flag of the Republic of Serbia?

20        A.   Yes, that is the Serb tricolour.

21        Q.   Because the Yugoslavia tricolour was actually in a different

22     order.  That was blue, white, red; correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   Okay.  If we can go ahead then.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 10599

 1             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter:  Does it imply that you

 2     will remove your uniform soon?

 3             "Goran Hadzic:  Well, I am a person, a representative of the Serb

 4     people who was elected by the Serbs.  If the Serb people who appointed me

 5     believe that the borders we have now are satisfactory, I will remove it.

 6     But I personal believe that I should keep it on for some time since the

 7     Serb borders are much further from where we stand now.  Thank you for

 8     this conversation.

 9             "Reporter:  Thank you too."

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   So, Mr. Hadzic, what I suggested to you just a moment ago is --

12     is -- is the truth, actually, which is more accurate than what you said,

13     which is certainly here you're wearing a uniform to send a message.  And

14     the message is that the government and the policy of the government is to

15     support efforts to expand the borders of the Serb District beyond Vukovar

16     which had on this day fallen.  So, really, you're sending a message by

17     wearing a uniform.  Isn't that true?

18        A.   That's not true.  I'm not linking that to the uniform at all.

19     The journalist put his question, I gave this answer, but I didn't give it

20     any particular thought, especially not in the way that you've mentioned

21     just now.

22        Q.   Well, what you just said is:

23             "... I will remove it.  But personally I believe I should keep it

24     on for some time since the Serb borders are much further from where we

25     stand now."

Page 10600

 1             So you're saying that you're going to continue to wear the

 2     uniform as long as there's a war and expansion of the Serb District;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Well, now I cannot remember what I thought then and along which

 5     lines I was thinking.  But it's logical for me to be in uniform for as

 6     long as there's a war going on.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, I would like to just briefly try to go through

 8     your direct testimony about the sequence of events on the

 9     20th of November just to make sure that we've got that correct.

10             First of all -- and I'm looking -- I'm starting at page 9754 of

11     the transcript.  This is your direct examination on the 14th of July.

12     You said:

13             "I travelled to Vukovar via Backa Palanka and via Ilok, I think,

14     or perhaps Sid.  I cannot remember exactly.  Roads go in parallel for a

15     certain lengths and then they join at Sotin."

16             That was your testimony on direct; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And, again, we're not going to revisit the extended discussion we

19     had previously about your prior testimony as having come in actually from

20     Erdut with Arkan accompanying you.  So I'm just noting that for the

21     record.  On that, we agree to disagree, if I may put it that way.  True?

22        A.   Yes, we disagree on that.

23        Q.   At transcript 9755, you indicate that you arrived Velepromet

24     between 1.00 and 2.00 in the afternoon; correct?

25        A.   Yes, yes.  Yesterday when I watched that footage that you played,

Page 10601

 1     I saw that it was after 2.00 p.m., but my recollection when I said that

 2     was between 1.00 and 2.00.  So that will do.

 3        Q.   And then just going through your testimony both in this case and

 4     things you've said in the past, I think we've got agreement largely as to

 5     who other participants at the meeting were, at least most of them.

 6     Vitomir Devetak; he was there.  Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Just indicate yes or no if you agree with me.  Mladen Hadzic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Vojin Susa?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Ilija Koncarevic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Ilija Petrovic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Milos Vojnovic, who was the president of the court?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Slavko Dokmanovic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Rade Leskovac at least for part of it.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Boro Bogunovic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Arkan?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 10602

 1        Q.   Stevo Bogic?  And I add him - before you answer - I'm adding him

 2     because that's what you said when you testified in Novi Sad in the trial

 3     of Mr. Miroljub Vujovic.  You indicated that Bogic was also present.

 4        A.   Well, I'm not 100 per cent sure now.  Irrespective of what that

 5     means, I just wish to testify.  I'm not sure that he was there.  Maybe I

 6     said that mechanically.  Maybe he wasn't there, but I am not sure,

 7     really.

 8        Q.   Now in your testimony in this case, you said that the meeting at

 9     Velepromet was not a session of the government and that it did not have

10     an agenda; correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   At 9761, you indicated that Mr. Susa asked whether it was

13     possible to prosecute and for us to know who among the prisoners had

14     committed crimes and that they would be prosecuted by our court.  That's

15     an issue that was raised by Mr. Susa at the meeting?

16        A.   I don't remember that I said that Susa asked me that because he

17     was minister of the judiciary and I didn't really know anything or I knew

18     next to nothing about the judiciary, so it seems impossible to me.  How

19     could I know whether the judiciary can do its job and that Susa would ask

20     me that.  He was the person who organised the judiciary.

21        Q.   No, I think you misunderstood me.  I'm asking -- I'm looking at

22     page 9761 of the transcript and there you said that at the meeting with

23     the gentleman who was representing the JNA that it was at the meeting

24     Mr. Susa asked him whether it was possible to prosecute and for to us

25     know who were among those -- among the prisoners who had committed crimes

Page 10603

 1     and that they would be prosecuted.

 2             So the question is whether, again, just to affirm, as you said

 3     before, Mr. Susa raised this with the JNA person?

 4        A.   Where did I say that?  Here?  Or in Novi Sad?

 5        Q.   You said that here on the 14th of July at page 9761 of your

 6     direct examination.

 7        A.   The interpretation I received was that Susa asked me and that

 8     confused me and it was only Susa that could have raised that question, if

 9     he did put that question to Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic.

10        Q.   Okay.  So Susa raised the issue of prisoners or prosecution with

11     the person you say was Vojnovic.  Is that your evidence?

12        A.   Yes.  But Vojnovic said that he didn't want to discuss it at all,

13     that he was not in charge, that he was not competent to discuss that or

14     civilian authority.

15        Q.   On the same page of the transcript, you indicate that, then, at

16     some point you were summoned by your driver to the courtyard.  That's

17     where you gave the interview.  Dusan Jaksic was there.  He spent about

18     15 minutes in the courtyards with the journalists and then you left with

19     Mr. Jaksic to go to Petrova Gora.  Is that an accurate summary?

20        A.   That is correct, yes.  Except that I entered a small office for a

21     few minutes with Jaksic that was a bit further away from the one where

22     the meeting was held.  We were there very briefly.  Somebody else from

23     Vukovar was there, somebody that Jaksic knew and he introduced me to that

24     person, but I cannot remember that person's name.  I've just remembered

25     that.

Page 10604

 1        Q.   And the interview with the journalist that you've mentioned

 2     actually is the one that we saw on the video-clip yesterday.  We've seen

 3     it a few times throughout the trial.

 4        A.   I don't think so.  These guests from Svetozarevo made this video,

 5     they took it with their camera, and I gave this interview to some foreign

 6     TV station.  I'm not sure, it may have been a Dutch TV station.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, in any event, you left with Mr. Jaksic.  And on

 8     page 1762, you indicate that you travelled to Sid with two of your

 9     relatives, people that you had met there at Velepromet.  True?

10        A.   Yes.  After the visit to Petrova Gora, I returned to Velepromet

11     and that's where these relatives were who had come from the hospital.

12     They had been in the hospital, blocked in the hospital all the time.  And

13     then I gave one of them a ride and the other one was in a different car,

14     I think with Mico Crnogorac.  I think they are related too.  And then

15     with them, I went to Sid, and from Backa Palanka and then to Bac where

16     the mother of that relative of mine was a refugee.  And that's why I --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the end of

18     the sentence.

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   Could you please repeat the last part of your answer.  The

21     interpreters missed it.

22        A.   I see how far the translation goes.  From Sid, we went to

23     Backa Palanka, and then from Backa Palanka to Bac; that is about 30

24     kilometres away from Backa Palanka along the Danube.  And the mother of

25     that relative of mine was staying there as a refugee, and that's where

Page 10605

 1     they went because their apartment in Vukovar had been destroyed.

 2        Q.   On 9765 of your direct examination, your attorney, Mr. Zivanovic,

 3     asked you some questions about the Sid video interview that we're going

 4     to look at in a moment.  But before we do, I just want you again to

 5     affirm as you indicated.  You were asked:

 6             "Does it reflect what you said back then so that I don't need to

 7     go through each and every sentence with you?"

 8             And your answer was:

 9             "Yes, it actually reflects my words at the time."

10             So just so we're clear:  There's no dispute about what actually

11     you said.  What we see in the video and the transcript that we've been

12     using, the way it's been interpreted throughout this trial; right?  You

13     agree that's what you said?

14        A.   Yes, yes, I agree that none of that was fabricated.  What was

15     shown is what I said.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, if the part of this question could be

18     clarified.  It is -- it is in the -- in line 6, it's been interpreted

19     through this trial.  What -- I didn't understand the question.

20             MR. STRINGER:  I'll just try to clarify that, Mr. President.

21        Q.   What I'm asking, Mr. Hadzic, is -- we've seen the video.  We've

22     heard interpreters giving us his words in English.  As you hear yourself

23     talking on the video, do you have any disagreement or with the way that

24     the words are presented in the video?  Let me put it to you that way.

25     We'll watch the video now.  As you have said you don't have any

Page 10606

 1     disagreement as I understand it with the way your words are presented in

 2     the video.

 3        A.   Yes, I understood you as asking whether something was changed to

 4     the way I said it.  I do agree that's what I said, but I will have to

 5     explain what I meant by that.  We'll do that later.  But it's shown the

 6     way I said it.

 7        Q.   Thanks.  That was -- that was probably a more succinct way of

 8     answering my question.

 9             Let's look at the video tab 1007, P1731.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MR. STRINGER:  And this is tab [sic] 4809.7.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  We're ready.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Goran Hadzic:  This is the first

15     session of the government held in our future capital of the Serb region

16     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem regarding the conclusions.  Apart

17     from the ones related to the normalisation of life and the establishment

18     of a more or less normal situation, there is one basic conclusion:  That

19     the prisoners, Ustashas with blood on their hands, must not leave the

20     territory of the Serb region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  And

21     they cannot be driven to Serbia since Serbia is a state which is not at

22     war.  Also, the troops that assisted in the capturing not really

23     connected with the rest, those were not the soldiers who were captured,

24     those were the paramilitary formations.  They can only be put to trial by

25     this people here, that is the people of our Serb region, which is

Page 10607

 1     recognised, which has its court.  We even have a second-instance court.

 2     The third-instance might eventually be on the federal level, the Yugoslav

 3     level.  But we have our regional court and our municipal court.

 4     Consequently, we have agreed with the military authorities that those

 5     Ustashas remain in some of our camps here in the vicinity of Vukovar.

 6     Since one group was already taken to Sremska Mitrovica, I undertook the

 7     task to return those people here, if they can be named people at all, to

 8     return them and to have them put on trial, to find out which among them

 9     are guilty, and those who are not shall normally be released so they can

10     join us in the reconstruction of our town.

11             "Reporter:  How do you estimate the total number of those members

12     of the Croatian paramilitary formations?  There was different data

13     available, 200 surrendered two nights ago, approximately 1.000 today in

14     the Borovo complex.  What number are we talking about?

15             "Goran Hadzic:  I believe the number is close to 3.000,

16     approximately 3.000 of mainly uniformed Ustashas, although there are

17     still many of them hiding among the civilians.  However, there are many

18     honest people as well.  Our primary task is to investigate everything and

19     not to let anyone guilty get hurt or be -- anyone who is not guilty get

20     hurt or be harassed.  It is better to have one culprit slip through than

21     to harm somebody innocent.  This is our task.  There is law and there

22     are -- is the police and all the bodies here so we will work on

23     preventing any persecution of innocent people.

24             "Reporter:  How is the establishment of the civil rule in Vukovar

25     going on, briefly?

Page 10608

 1             "Goran Hadzic:  Well, today there was the first step.  We have

 2     been preparing for this event.  Unfortunately, I was a bit of an optimist

 3     thinking that Vukovar was not so devastated.  Today when we saw it I

 4     think there are no words to describe it, but literally there is not a

 5     single undamaged house.  There are even corpses out in the streets.

 6     Thus, first we have to have our minister of health, actually the

 7     agricultural, meaning the veterinary.  The veterinarians and doctors have

 8     to prevent contagion to remove those and then start with the

 9     normalisation of life which is already prepared.  We had agreement with

10     those people today, the people who carried out the fights on their backs.

11     Those are the people from the settlement of Petrova Gora, without whom,

12     so to say, this fight of ours for Vukovar would have been lost.  I'm

13     using this opportunity to thank them for everything they have done.  We

14     have scheduled the next meeting for tomorrow with one group of ministers

15     and the representatives of those people to found bodies and to establish

16     civil rule in the town in agreement with them.  We have actually agreed

17     with the representatives of the military authority that the military

18     rule shall not established in Vukovar for a longer period, possibly only

19     for a couple of days, but it is planned that the civil authorities take

20     over."

21             MR. STRINGER:

22        Q.   Now, I've got some questions for you about what you said here,

23     Mr. Hadzic.  But before we do that, I want to go back to your Dokmanovic

24     testimony.  Tab 830; 65 ter 2320.  And I want to go to that because I

25     want to point out to you I think what's evident that what you're saying

Page 10609

 1     today in this trial and much of what you said in the Dokmanovic case is

 2     obviously very different from what you said when you gave this interview

 3     back on the 20th of November 1991.  And at page 3117 of the Dokmanovic

 4     transcript, you were giving your opinion about Mr. Dokmanovic and you

 5     were asserting that it's not possible he could have been at Ovcara later

 6     on that day.  And you were asked -- you said you were with him until

 7     3.00 p.m. which I take it would have been the time you left Velepromet,

 8     more or less.  True?

 9        A.   Approximately.  Perhaps a bit later.

10        Q.   And it was suggested that you don't know where he was after

11     3.00 p.m.; is that correct?

12             This was on your cross-examination.

13             And your answer:

14             "I did not know that.  I did not know that until this particular

15     trial and proceedings.  But in contacts with witnesses, I learned that he

16     was constantly with somebody."

17             And the question then:

18             "So you have been talking to other witnesses in this case?"

19             And you answered:

20             "In this case, I talked informally, not here but there, because

21     after Dokmanovic's imprisonment, we discussed the matter and everybody

22     was quite clear on the fact that Slavko could not have been there."

23             Now that was your testimony in Dokmanovic under oath, Mr. Hadzic,

24     and before we go and break down this video, I'm going to put it to you,

25     sir, that in the years since you gave this interview on the

Page 10610

 1     20th of November, you've spoken to other people, you've aligned your

 2     stories and you spend many -- you made many statements trying to distance

 3     yourself from what you said in Sid on the 20th of November.  Isn't that

 4     true.

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Now, going back to your words that you gave in the interview in

 7     Sid -- well, first of all, we know from your evidence in this case, now

 8     that you're saying that much, if not everything that you said in that

 9     video was not true at the time.  Is that your evidence, that what you

10     said in the video was not true?

11        A.   The three or four main points that there was the government

12     session held and that we had agreed with the military authorities, that's

13     not true.  I explained why I had to say that, but can I explain it again.

14        Q.   Page 9769 of your direct evidence, Mr. Zivanovic said:

15             "Mr. Hadzic, my inference from your evidence today is that this

16     entire video, everything you said in it, is untrue.  Can you tell us what

17     was the reason why you were saying all these untrue things?"

18             And you went on to give an answer by referring to the

19     Machiavellian approach from the Italian Nicco Machiavelli:

20             "I thought that telling the truth would then result in a complete

21     collapse of the system.  Now I can tell you what the truth was."

22             So we do agree that you were not telling the truth when you spoke

23     to this, as you say -- well, actually I don't know that we can agree.

24     You're now asserting that you weren't telling the truth when you gave

25     this interview in November 20 -- in November of 1991.  I'm going to put

Page 10611

 1     it to you that actually much of what you said was true and you fully

 2     intended to say it.  Starting with the issue of the government session,

 3     here you did say that the meeting at Velepromet was a government session,

 4     didn't you?

 5        A.   No, I don't know if there is a difference between a meeting and a

 6     session in the English translation.  That's how it had been planned.

 7     Part -- a meeting of a part of the government with representatives of the

 8     military authorities.  A couple of ministers came, including the

 9     Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic who said he was in charge of logistics and he

10     cannot decide anything on behalf of the military authorities.  So it was

11     a meeting, not a government session.  The secretary of the government was

12     not there, and no session of the government could be held without the

13     secretary.

14        Q.   And in your interview, you also referred to conclusions, apart

15     from the normalisation of life, but you referred to conclusions saying

16     there's one basic conclusion:  That the prisoner, Ustashas with blood on

17     their hands, must not leave the territory.  Now this was, in fact, the

18     overriding issue during the meeting that occurred at the Velepromet

19     complex.  Your government strongly asserting its position, Arkan present,

20     that the prisoners would -- were not to leave the SBWS.  Isn't that true?

21        A.   No.  I heard some more information about events at Ovcara only

22     here from your witnesses, and you heard the same.  Now to connect the

23     presence of Arkan with the events in Ovcara, it's actually the first time

24     I hear of a conclusion of this kind.  You heard very well from your own

25     witnesses what happened there and who organised it.  When I gave that

Page 10612

 1     interview, those events had already begun.  It never crossed my mind that

 2     anybody would be capable of doing what was done there.  I wanted to put

 3     on trial those perhaps 15 men we believed to be responsible for crimes.

 4        Q.   That's my next point.  You referred to this at 9766 and 9767 of

 5     your direct, claiming that you only wanted 15 or 20 people to be brought

 6     back from Sremska Mitrovica.  And then in your direct you also refer to

 7     the story - it came up yesterday - about -- there was a story going

 8     around about a killing incident involving Serbian children at a

 9     kindergarten.

10             However, as we see in the video interview that you gave at the

11     time, you made no reference to 15 or 20 people.  Actually, what you made

12     a reference to were military, paramilitary formations which sounds like a

13     good deal more than 15 to 20 people to me, Mr. Hadzic.  You said:

14             "Also the troops that assisted in the capturing, they -- those

15     were not the soldiers who were captured.  Those were the paramilitary

16     formations.  They can only be put on trial by these people here."

17             So paramilitary formations -- that's a large number of people.

18     You're actually referring to all the captured Croat prisoners, aren't

19     you, because they were all considered paramilitaries by you?

20        A.   We were all able to hear that the reporter asked me how many

21     defenders of Vukovar do you believe there were.  That's how I understood

22     it -- that's how I understood the question, although he never mentioned

23     the term defenders of Vukovar.  So I just off the cuff said 3.000.

24             As for the killing incident involving children, which never

25     happened and I mentioned it here, I said those people, if they can be

Page 10613

 1     called people at all, I meant people capable of killing children.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, Your Honours.  The witness answers too

 3     fast, and I see that the interpreter could not catch his words.  So I

 4     would ask him -- if he could repeat his answer.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, slowly, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The question is whether you could repeat your

 8     answer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was just reading to see what has

10     been interpreted.  That's why I took some time.

11             Towards the end of that interview, I wanted to sent a clear

12     message that those who were responsible, who were guilty, should be put

13     on trial, and those who were innocent should rebuild Vukovar with us

14     together.

15             MR. STRINGER:

16        Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Hadzic.  You know I'm pressed for time.  I can't

17     allow you just to make a speech.  We have your words, your statement

18     about letting 100 people go in order to keep one guilty person.  Everyone

19     agrees you said that in the video.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, since -- since the answers of Mr. Hadzic

21     are recorded and it could be compared later, I would just say that

22     Mr. Hadzic said in B/C/S and mentioned "those who had blood on their

23     hands," and it was not translated and it was not transcribed in his

24     answer.  And it would be seen from -- from -- from the tape record of --

25     of this -- of this testimony.  Thanks.

Page 10614

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So now it's on the record and it will be checked.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

 3             MR. STRINGER:

 4        Q.   We're not going to go back and look at the entire Dokmanovic

 5     transcript, Mr. Hadzic, but if I were to suggest to you that in your

 6     entire testimony in that case you made no reference to just ten or 15

 7     people that you wanted prosecuted.  Would you accept that suggestion?

 8     This is something new that you've said today that you did not say before?

 9        A.   Your Honours, in the Dokmanovic case, I was a Defence witness for

10     Slavko Dokmanovic.  I was not accused in that case.  And I was not

11     charged with what I had said.  I was there to talk about

12     Slavko Dokmanovic.  I was not required to speak with precision about the

13     matters that I'm speaking about now.  I said I had come through

14     Borovo Naselje and I made other insignificant slips, but it doesn't

15     matter -- it didn't matter at the time because it had nothing to do with

16     Dokmanovic.  I was not an actor learning his role by heart.  I was saying

17     things as I remembered then.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 420, Exhibit 2918.

19     Actually, I apologise.  Before we do that, let's go to Exhibit 2922,

20     which is tab number 336.

21        Q.   Now, this is an article from "Politika" that was published the

22     21st of November, date line is 20 November.  This covers a lot of what

23     you said in the televised interview but actually has some additional

24     information.  Here, there is a reference to the most hardened criminals

25     like Darko Markobasic.  Goes on to say the government of the

Page 10615

 1     Serb District met in session for the first time yesterday in Vukovar.

 2             So there are quotes attributed here, Mr. Hadzic, that are very

 3     consistent with those attributed to in the video.  Government session

 4     agenda.  Agreement with army leadership.  So the fact is you were

 5     speaking about these issues.  Your description of the Velepromet meeting

 6     on the 20th of November is actually quite candid and that's the real

 7     version of what happened as opposed to your most recent testimony.  Isn't

 8     that true?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I'm in a very difficult position now and this is

10     too serious a matter for me to laugh.  Some journalist watched footage of

11     my interview and he wrote this based on that TV report.  I didn't give a

12     particular separate interview to this journalist who wrote this.  The

13     same journalist saw the same thing on TV.  I didn't say the same thing

14     twice.  Other media simply took over what had been seen on television.  I

15     couldn't have possibly given this interview for the newspapers because I

16     immediately left for Bac and Novi Sad and this paper appeared the next

17     morning, after the interview.

18        Q.   Well, actually, that's not true, Mr. Hadzic, because in the

19     televised video interview we don't have a reference to Darko Markobasic.

20     We don't have the sort of incitement language that's contained in

21     paragraph 1 of the article regarding his imprisonment for raping a

22     corpse?

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we have reference where -- may we have

Page 10616

 1     a reference where Mr. Hadzic referenced Darko Markobasic or any other

 2     name?

 3             MR. STRINGER:  I'm looking at the heading of the article,

 4     Mr. President.  Now, Mr. Hadzic has just asserted that the person who

 5     wrote this article simply watched the video footage, and my suggestion is

 6     that can't be true because this person is referring to other information

 7     and other statements and I believe I'm entitled to explore that with him.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue.

 9             Mr. Zivanovic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I just like to -- to know whether it was the

11     words of Mr. Hadzic or the witness or something else.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer can continue.

13             MR. STRINGER:

14        Q.   I believe it was yesterday earlier in your cross-examination,

15     Mr. Hadzic, you've mentioned this, I believe you mentioned Mr. Markobasic

16     as being one of the people you had in mind when you made that statement

17     about "if they can be called people at all"; right?

18        A.   Yes, I said that.  But if you allow me, because this is about me,

19     I would like -- like to have a minute to explain this.  Other people

20     should also see this.  These are two completely different things.  That

21     journalist I suppose spent the whole day in Vukovar and he received

22     information that I never had.  Ninety per cent of these names are names I

23     had never heard myself before; for instance, the Molnar brothers.  I

24     never mentioned them.  He wrote his own text covering five or six

25     different things including something I said in interview.  They are not

Page 10617

 1     connected between them.  And I'm surprised that anybody could make that

 2     connection.  I never, never enumerated these things.  I never mentioned

 3     the basement and those are three or four unconnected things.  The

 4     journalist conveyed that but also mentioned a lot of things that I had no

 5     inkling about.

 6        Q.   Can we agree that the wife of Davor Markobasic was among the last

 7     of the victims to be executed at the pit at Ovcara on the

 8     20th of November?

 9        A.   I heard that at the same time when you did.  I heard it from one

10     witness testimony.  I -- before that, I didn't even know the man was

11     married.  And I didn't know Darko Markobasic, or whatever his name is.

12     Not Darko, actually, Davor.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 420, Exhibit 2918.  And

14     if we could go to page 18 of the English.

15        Q.   We looked at this yesterday, Mr. Hadzic, and we agreed that we

16     would come back to it.  Page 18 of the English relates to item 6.

17             MR. STRINGER:  And just for the Chamber, this is the 20th

18     February, 1992, 1st Military District Command report on clearing up the

19     battle ground and restoring Vukovar and other endangered sectors.

20        Q.   And page 18, item 6 (a), just skipping down for a moment to 6

21     (b), the case of burning bodies in the incinerator in Vukovar Hospital

22     and transplants of body parts.  Mr. Hadzic, that's the part we looked at

23     yesterday; correct?

24        A.   Yes, yes, I remember.

25        Q.   And now 6 (a) here relates I believe to the case you mentioned a

Page 10618

 1     couple of times now, the case of the slaughter of children of Serbian

 2     ethnicity in the kindergarten in Borovo.  You referred to this as

 3     something that was in your mind on the day you made the statements you

 4     made on the 20th of November.  True?

 5        A.   Yes.  When I said if such persons can be called people in the

 6     first place, regardless of whether they are Serbs or Croats.  If somebody

 7     kills children, cuts body organs out, they are not human beings.

 8        Q.   And what we see here is that in terms of the investigation of

 9     that alleged incident, there are no indications to confirm this report.

10     A detailed search of the building, items in the kindergarten and garden

11     indicated that no kind of slaughter took place in this facility.  Twelve

12     bodies buried in shallow graves were exhumed from the yard, but these

13     were identified bodies and adult persons of Croatian ethnicity and

14     members of paramilitary formations.

15             Now, Mr. Hadzic, I believe I've seen you in one of your

16     statements attribute this story on the kindergarten to Mr. Rade Leskovac.

17     Is that true?  He was circulating, pushing the story at that time?

18        A.   When I made that statement I thought it was Rade Leskovac;

19     however, now I received voluminous material from the OTP, actually, in

20     order to prepare for testifying, and I found the right source of that

21     particular piece of news.  If the Trial Chamber is interested, I can say

22     what that source is.

23        Q.   What I'm interested in, though, is the fact that you as prime

24     minister of the SBS government and the leading civilian politician in the

25     Serb District that you were referring or had in mind incidents or

Page 10619

 1     stories, such as the Markobasic story about using fingers for necklaces,

 2     that it was the basis of those sorts of reports that you were making such

 3     inflammatory and inciteful statements about the prisoners if they can be

 4     called people at all.  Your intention was to actually incite and fan the

 5     flames of violence and retribution.  Isn't that true?

 6        A.   No, that's not true.  I just wanted to explain here what I meant

 7     if they can be called human beings.  I meant the guilty people, the

 8     perpetrators, the killers who have blood on their hands up to their

 9     elbows.  And we agree that guilty ones should be prosecuted.  And it's

10     prosecutors of any court that would agree to that.  I was in favour of

11     taking them to trial.  There is a two-instance court, and criminals

12     should be tried.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have 65 ter 4974.8G, as in golf.  This is

14     tab 1089, Mr. President.  This is from Mr. Hadzic's suspect interview.

15     Just a brief point to make.  Actually, I think we can just work with the

16     transcript of it as opposed to the video.  It might go a little faster.

17        Q.   While it's coming up, I'll just put it to you, Mr. Hadzic.  Maybe

18     we don't need to look at the transcript.  In your suspect interview, you

19     were asked about this video footage and the interview that you gave in

20     Sid and you actually said that:

21             "I gave the statement that I gave which I would give even now in

22     a similar situation at another place."

23             Do you recall saying that?

24        A.   Well, I don't remember exactly but that is my position.  My

25     position was that everyone who is guilty should be held accountable and

Page 10620

 1     that every killer, every guilty person should be held accountable.

 2        Q.   And these statements you made about classifying people as not

 3     people at all, the language knowing now the effect it could have had on a

 4     listening public in this atmosphere, you'd make those same types of

 5     statements again?

 6        A.   If I would have information that someone had slaughtered people,

 7     slaughtered children, cut off their fingers.  I've already said this

 8     here.  I cannot call these people, people, even if they were closely

 9     related to me, whoever they might be, even if it were my very own son.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 830, Exhibit 65 ter 2320.

11     We can skip over the -- well, we actually do have the transcript of the

12     suspect interview, but we can move past this.  I think Mr. Hadzic's

13     answer on that was sufficient.  65 ter 2320, Dokmanovic testimony at

14     page 3097.

15        Q.   This is to ask you, Mr. Hadzic, about a couple of your past prior

16     statements on this atmosphere that prevailed in the Vukovar area after

17     the town fell on the 18th, in those days after it fell.  And we see at

18     the top of the page beginning with line 1:

19             "The lieutenant-colonel from the army also spoke about prisoner

20     of war who were there, but we did not have any jurisdiction over them."

21             That's what you said:

22             "I personally was afraid and I advocated a fair trial for the

23     prisoners so that nothing bad would happen to them, possibly."

24             And what you were afraid of was the possibility -- what this

25     tells us is that you knew that there was an atmosphere of violence and

Page 10621

 1     that any prisoners in those days were in extreme risk.  Isn't that true?

 2     That's the context in which you were making these public statements on

 3     the 20th.

 4        A.   That's not true in this context that you wish to portray.  A day

 5     before these things happened, through the Croatian media I heard that

 6     they were afraid that the JNA might commit a crime.  And that would have

 7     been catastrophe, a political, a human catastrophe, any other kind of

 8     catastrophe for this area where I was some kind of prime minister.  And I

 9     was afraid that this could happen and we would have no possibility to

10     intervene and nobody asked us anything about that as was clearly stated

11     to us by this Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have Exhibit 1079.

13                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

14             MR. STRINGER:  Apologies.  We'll pass that for the moment.

15        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, on -- in your direct testimony at page 9780 you said

16     that you went to Sremska Mitrovica about ten or 15 days after these

17     events, the events we've just been discussing; is that correct?

18        A.   Well, it's correct that I said that.  I think it was in the month

19     of December.  I don't know exact dates.  I don't have a good memory for

20     dates anyway.

21        Q.   And you actually made two trips to Sremska Mitrovica during this

22     period of time; isn't that correct?

23        A.   No.  I think it was only once in that period.  But after that,

24     when our people were there, I mean, these people of ours who were found

25     guilty in the republic of the SAO Krajina, I went there ex officio, if I

Page 10622

 1     can put it that way, so I cannot separate it from that.  I think that I

 2     visited these Croat prisoners only once.

 3        Q.   Well, there was a second time when you went down, where you had a

 4     meeting with General Vasiljevic.  Isn't that true?

 5        A.   I did not meet with General Vasiljevic.  Never, as far as I can

 6     remember.  I don't remember.  I cannot remember that.

 7        Q.   When you went to Sremska Mitrovica during that period, 10 to 15

 8     days after the fall of Vukovar, you had by that time already heard

 9     reports of something horrible that happened, maybe not at Ovcara, but you

10     knew that there were reports of some sort of a massacre that had

11     occurred.  Isn't that true?

12        A.   I had not heard about Ovcara.  But there were these rumours, if I

13     can call it that, that the army might commit that kind of crime.  When I

14     saw these people in Mitrovica, that I saw that they were still alive, in

15     a way I was pleased seeing that this thing that people were talking about

16     was not true.

17        Q.   So even within the period of 10 to 15 days after the

18     20th of November, there were reports of atrocities, and you were aware of

19     those reports; correct?

20        A.   Well, it wasn't official.  I didn't know that officially.  I

21     mean, before that, there were rumours coming from the Croat press.  It

22     was mainly the Croat press that was promoting these stories.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1574, Exhibit P3200.

24        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a report written by a

25     Colonel Jugoslav Maksimovic for General Gligorevic, and it refers to a

Page 10623

 1     December 10th, 1991, delegation of the SAO SBWS headed by:

 2             "Goran Hadzic visited the Sremska Mitrovica collection centre.

 3     The delegation included the minister of justice, Susa, minister of the

 4     interior and other representatives."

 5             When you say that you went to Sremska Mitrovica, is this the

 6     visit that you have in mind?

 7        A.   It could be that, yes.  It was 20 days after what had happened in

 8     Vukovar.

 9        Q.   And in paragraph 3, this report says that:

10             "This time around they tried to very brazenly impute things to us

11     which they could not back with any arguments.  They are blaming us for

12     allegedly releasing the blood thirsty Ustasha without consulting them,

13     although they have the relevant documentation."

14             Do you recall -- well, were you among those complaining about the

15     JNA releasing the blood thirsty Ustasha?

16        A.   No, we -- well, I was there -- well, it was a sort of

17     protocol-like visit.  I did not go into any kind of discussion with this

18     lieutenant-colonel.  As far as I understood things, he was there to take

19     care.  He wasn't really in charge of any decision making.

20        Q.   Well, page 2 of the English, it continues.  This is for you,

21     Mr. Hadzic, moving down actually just a few lines in the same paragraph:

22             "They found out about the exchange of the medical staff and that

23     around 900 persons would be exchanged in Bosanski Samac and elsewhere on

24     that day, 10 December.  They were very critical on this issue as well

25     saying, We know who is doing all this and they will be had held to

Page 10624

 1     account.  They were particularly harsh in condemning the release/exchange

 2     of Vesna Bosanac.  They claimed to have irrefutable evidence about the

 3     crimes of genocide committed by Dr. Bosanac which had been confirmed by

 4     them by the investigative judge, Saljic."

 5             Do you remember that, Mr. Hadzic, complaints about releasing

 6     Ms. Bosanac?

 7        A.   That did not happen in my presence.  I never talked to this

 8     investigating judge Saljic.  I met that man here in The Hague for the

 9     first time because he is on Ratko Mladic's team.  Later on, I heard who

10     he was and I saw him on television.  At that time I had never talked to

11     him.  I didn't know his existence.

12        Q.   The complaint here about releasing some 900 or exchanging some

13     900 persons, medical staff, that sounds again quite a bit more than the

14     10 or 15 people that you claim that you wanted to be prosecuted and

15     returned to the SAO SBWS, isn't it?

16        A.   Well, I have to say that that is not correct, because I really

17     did not discuss this.  Now that you're asking me, though, I could say

18     that I don't know anything about that.  But as a private individual with

19     a minimum of intelligence, there could have been 15 among these 900, but

20     they did not allow our people from the judiciary to take part in this at

21     all, to look for some names that they had been looked for.  As for the

22     information I had received from these people from Slavonia and Baranja,

23     this list of 15, 20, they were not among them at all.  But at that time

24     they did not allow us to check that.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1561, Exhibit P2913.


Page 10625

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This would be a confidential document,

 2     Mr. Stringer?

 3             MR. STRINGER:  I'm just inquiring.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  1561.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  1561, tab 1561, Exhibit 2913.  It's confidential.

 6     I apologise.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We are not broadcasting it.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Could we go into private session, though,

 9     Mr. President.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10626











11 Pages 10626-10628 redacted. Private session.
















Page 10629

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             And then I see that it's that time, Mr. Stringer.  Would that

 7     would be convenient -- this be convenient?

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  I do have a hard copy of the

 9     B/C/S version of the document for Mr. Hadzic to look at during the break.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

11             First break:  30 minutes.  Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Hadzic -- Mr. Stringer,

15     sorry.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Could we please have tab 1718, Exhibit 65 ter 6561.

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is the document that you've just got there, if

19     you want to keep it at hand.  And, again, this relates to your assertion

20     that you never interfered in the work of the judiciary.  That was

21     something you said at page 9900 of the transcript.

22             What we have in this document is a report from the

23     9th of February, 1995, regarding someone named Slobodan Medic, aka Boco.

24     And it's reporting that:

25             "He was involved in smuggling, resale of livestock.  He commanded


Page 10630

 1     a unit which operated on the Sremski Banovci-Orolik line.  With the end

 2     of the military action and the renewed exploitation of the Djeletovci oil

 3     field, Medic and ten to 15 of his men took on the role of providing

 4     physical security there."

 5             Do you see that there, Mr. Hadzic, in paragraph 2?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   This -- this unit, this group providing physical security at the

 8     oil field, is this the group that subsequently became known as the

 9     Skorpions?  Do you know?

10        A.   I heard that in 1995 that they became Skorpions around the time

11     when I had already stopped being president.

12        Q.   But this group that was providing security at the oil field, you

13     did play a role in organising or putting that group there, in order to

14     provide that security, didn't you?

15        A.   No, I didn't even know them at that time.

16        Q.   And then in the next paragraph it says that:

17             "For his overall contribution and merit, the then-president of

18     the RSK, Goran Hadzic, promoted him to the rank of major."

19             And then it says:

20             "This was never officially verified."

21             The question is Mr. Hadzic, whether, in fact, you promoted

22     Mr. Medic to any rank at any time?

23        A.   I don't remember that.  I know that when I was president of the

24     republic, I received proposals submitted to me by Mile Novakovic or

25     whoever was the army commander at the time, but I don't know whether

Page 10631

 1     Slobodan Medic was one of the names on these proposals.  I can't

 2     remember.  But I don't think so.  I see that Martic, again, promoted him

 3     into major.  I don't think he would be doubly promoted to the same rank.

 4        Q.   You do know Mr. Medic, or you did know him at the time, though.

 5     Isn't that true?  "At the time," I say between 1993 -- sorry, between

 6     1992 to 1994.

 7        A.   All I know is that I didn't know him in 1991.  When he appeared

 8     and when I met him, I can't remember.  But later on, I knew him in the

 9     sense that I saw him now and then, but I was never friends with him or

10     anything.

11        Q.   You first became acquainted with him at some point while you were

12     president of RSK?

13        A.   That could be either by the end of 1993 or the end of 1994.  But,

14     possibly, yes, when I was president of the republic.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Page 2 of the English and we're going to skip down

16     about seven paragraphs to the paragraph that says:

17             "Medic is a man who has exploited the emerging situation to the

18     maximum and acquired considerable capital by engaging in criminal

19     activities."

20             And then fourth paragraph down from there, and this is the point,

21     it says:

22             "At the start of 1992, Medic's father was arrested and detained

23     for the murder of a Serbian man, but was soon released at the insistence

24     of Goran Hadzic.  There are indications that the murder was committed by

25     Medic himself and that his father turned himself in to save him from

Page 10632

 1     prison."

 2        Q.   Is that accurate, Mr. Hadzic?  Did you intervene in any way in

 3     the case involving Mr. Medic or his father?

 4        A.   No.  But after that incident I learned by chance from relatives

 5     in that village that the family of the injured party is threatening me

 6     because they believed I was involved in some way.  I don't know whether

 7     Medic was bragging around.  I don't know what exactly happened and how

 8     Medic's next door neighbour was exactly killed.  He was killed in Medic's

 9     courtyard.  Medic was, at that time --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

11             MR. STRINGER:

12        Q.   They're asking you to slow down just a little bit, please.

13        A.   At that time, he thought -- the neighbour thought that Medic was

14     somewhere in his military position, that he was not at home, and I found

15     by chance that some threats had been addressed to me and my family so I

16     got worried.  But it didn't have anything to do with me and those people

17     realised it.  Anyway, this is how this story started.

18        Q.   All right.  So the indication here that there was a crime, some

19     sort of a murder that occurred, Medic or his father was implicated, that

20     is -- appears to be accurate.  You agree with -- with that part of this?

21        A.   That's not a point of agreeing or not agreeing.  It really

22     happened, and I told you the story the way I heard it from my relatives

23     who were from the same village as Medic, that a young man, a Serb, was

24     killed, of Medic's age, in the middle of the night in Medic's courtyard.

25     That is all I know about it.  Nothing more.

Page 10633

 1        Q.   And then at some point you learned that for some reason people,

 2     the family of the victim were associating you or were threatening you or

 3     members of your family in relation to this incident.  Do I understand it

 4     correctly?

 5        A.   Maybe I should simplify this.  I found out at that same moment

 6     both about the incident and the release of his father from prison and the

 7     threats.  It was not step by step.  It was all at the same time.  When I

 8     got the threats, when I heard about the threats, I didn't -- I -- I knew

 9     why -- why the father had killed that man.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender in exhibit, 65 ter 6561.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object.  We already asked the Prosecution

13     to -- to provide the source of this document and chain of custody of this

14     document.  Because we really doubt the authenticity of this document.  It

15     has no indication about author of this document, about name of person who

16     created it or the service stamp or something like that.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, counsel is -- is -- is correct,

19     although I didn't link counsel's inquiry to this particular document.

20     Mr. Zivanovic did ask us to provide sort of the chain of custody,

21     information about two documents.  It came in a few days ago, and to be

22     candid about it, I have the information that was given.  I passed on the

23     request, and we've got the information.  I simply haven't had time to

24     give it back to Mr. Zivanovic because of everything else going on.

25             Could I suggest that we MFI this document.  We could provide

Page 10634

 1     Mr. Zivanovic with the information we found and at some point, perhaps

 2     early next week, I could retender the document.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, indeed.  Let's MFI it pending the answer to

 4     Mr. Zivanovic's request.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3231, Your Honours, marked for

 6     identification.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1340, Exhibit

 9     65 ter 5491.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's a confidential one, if I'm not wrong.

11             MR. STRINGER:  I --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Oh no.  No.  I'm aiming at the wrong one.  I'm

13     sorry.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Tab 1340, Exhibit 65 ter 5491.

15        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you spoke in your direct examination about your

16     involvement in the --

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             MR. STRINGER:

19        Q.   In the Ovcara exhumation, and that's what this is about.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And if I could direct your attention, please, to page 6 of the

22     document, the English, and in the B/C/S, I believe it's also the sixth

23     page.  It's under the section number E on civil affairs.  And just for

24     the record, the document is dated 10th of January, 1994.  It's an UN SRSG

25     cable to Annan from Akashi.

Page 10635

 1             And in this section on civil affairs, we see a reference.  Says:

 2             "In Sector East," paragraph 2 there, "the civil affairs office

 3     was instrumental in co-ordinating all the arrangements for the visit to

 4     the sector of US ambassador to the UN, Mrs. Madeleine Albright, and US

 5     ambassador to Croatia, Mr. Pete Galbraith.  Their itinerary included a

 6     visit of Ovcara, a suspected site of mass grave, an informal meeting with

 7     local Serb authorities and a tour of the city of Vukovar.  During a

 8     meeting lasting 60 minutes, Ambassador Galbraith condemned the

 9     unacceptable behaviour of the local Serb authorities regarding Ovcara,

10     while in an interview at the grave-site and with the Belgrade media,

11     Ambassador Albright stated her abhorrence of war crimes and the attention

12     of the US to prosecute those individuals responsible."

13             It continues:

14             "Speaking for local officials were Goran Hadzic, president of the

15     RSK, and Milan Ilic, president of the Executive Council, SBWS."

16             Do you remember this meeting with Ambassadors Galbraith and

17     Albright, Mr. Hadzic?

18        A.   Certainly.  Mrs. Madeleine Albright is one of the most important

19     people I have ever met in my entire political career, the highest ranking

20     at that time.  She was state secretary -- before that she was state

21     secretary of the US and at that time she was a US ambassador to the

22     United Nations.

23        Q.   And do you remember them complaining to you and Mr. Ilic about

24     the -- your government's handling of the -- I should say the RSK's

25     handling of the Ovcara exhumation?

Page 10636

 1        A.   It was not a meeting.  It was a kind of working luncheon.  We had

 2     lunch, and, at that time, it was not a question whether exhumations would

 3     be carried out at Ovcara.  As far as I understood, their condemnation was

 4     not directed against me.

 5        Q.   And the Milan Ilic that's referred to here, Mr. Hadzic, just to

 6     be clear, this is the same gentleman we were speaking about a few days

 7     ago, I think most recently in the video footage we saw on the meeting

 8     with Ms. Dafina Milanovic in Erdut; correct?

 9        A.   Milan Ilic was president of the Executive Council of Slavonia,

10     Baranja, and Western Srem.  It's the only Milan Ilic.  There's no other.

11        Q.   And so I take it your answer to my question is:  Yes.  It's the

12     same gentleman?

13        A.   Yes, yes.  I confirmed it in a broader answer.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender 65 ter 5491.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 3232, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Tab 40, please, Exhibit 1D02397.

19        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is the record of your evidence, your testimony,

20     in the Vujovic case in Novi Sad in September of 2003.  And during that

21     testimony, the subject came up.  Page 5 of the English.  Second full

22     paragraph from the top begins with the words, "Upon the insistence of

23     Madeleine Albright ...,"  and we'll wait a moment for the B/C/S to catch

24     up.

25             While that's coming, Mr. Hadzic, I'll just read to you what it

Page 10637

 1     says in the English and you can take the interpretation if you'd like.

 2     It says:

 3             "Upon the insistence of Madeleine Albright, I, as president of

 4     the Republic of Serbian Krajina in 1993, signed an order to carry out an

 5     exhumation at Ovcara, an area then controlled by soldiers from the

 6     Russian contingent of UNPROFOR.  Only when the first bones were found was

 7     I certain that something really happened back then at Ovcara.  Whoever I

 8     had asked prior to this replied that they knew nothing."

 9             The point here being, Mr. Hadzic, that actually despite having

10     taken credit for ordering or supporting the exhumation at Ovcara in your

11     testimony, as you said here, really, the only reason you did it is

12     because of the political pressure, if I can put it that way, the

13     insistence of the US ambassador to the United Nations.  Isn't that true?

14        A.   No.  I gave statement in Novi Sad viva voce and the investigating

15     prosecutor heard me and when it was all over he dictated into the record.

16     So when it says "upon the insistence or at the proposal of," I can't

17     remember whether that was actually said.  But when I was asked to do

18     something, I did all in my power.  I was not the -- I was perhaps the top

19     person, but I didn't -- I didn't oppose it.

20        Q.   Moving down just two paragraphs there's a reference here to

21     Miroljub Vujovic that I could ask you about while you're here -- while

22     we're here, because it's in his trial that you're testifying here.  He

23     was on trial for his responsibility in the Ovcara killings.  Isn't that

24     true?

25        A.   Yes, Miroljub was charged before a court in Belgrade.

Page 10638

 1        Q.   And he was the commander of the Vukovar TO at the time of the

 2     events at Ovcara; correct?

 3        A.   I didn't know him at the time.  I thought the commander was

 4     reserve Captain First Class Jaksic.  I only heard -- when I came here to

 5     the Detention Unit I heard from some people - I won't mention their names

 6     because they may be protected witnesses - that one day before the 20th,

 7     an order was signed making -- making the other one commander, whereas,

 8     Miroljub was dismissed from the JNA.

 9        Q.   Well, you did know that Miroljub Vujovic -- after the events at

10     Ovcara, you did know that he became the -- appointed to the Vukovar

11     Executive Council in late 1991 or early 1992.  You did know that; we

12     talked about that.

13        A.   Yes, he was appointed by the president of the municipality who

14     had his own list of personnel.  I --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat.

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   Please repeat your last sentence.  They missed it.

18        A.   They were appointed by the president of the municipality.  At

19     that time, I did not know Miroljub Vujovic or some other members of that

20     council.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, you just said that you didn't know that Jaksic

22     was out or that he'd been replaced or removed as TO commander until you

23     came here to the Detention Unit.  That's at page 43, line 17.

24             If we could go to page 6 of this document on the screen, your

25     testimony in the Vujovic case, because you've said something different

Page 10639

 1     there.  This is about seven or eight paragraphs down in the B/C/S, says,

 2     "I repeat once more" -- this is about the fourth paragraph:

 3             "I repeat once more that at the time around the liberation of

 4     Vukovar I did not know the details about the TO organisation, but I have

 5     already said it was not a new formation but one that had been in

 6     existence as part of the All People's Defence.  I have already mentioned

 7     that I know that prior to the liberation of Vukovar there was some sort

 8     of conflict for ten to 15 days, that Jaksic was removed, that the army

 9     interfered with personnel policy, but I am not sure if anyone was

10     appointed or, if so, who."

11             So actually what you just said a minute ago, Mr. Hadzic, that's

12     not the truth.  You say you just learned about that when you arrived here

13     at the Detention Unit a couple of years ago.  In fact, you knew about

14     this at least back in 2003 when you testified in the Vujovic case.  Isn't

15     that so?

16        A.   Yes, yes, I agree with you.  I was not precise enough but I can

17     explain this.  When I said I didn't know, I meant I didn't know what that

18     procedure was like.  I didn't know that it was one day before the 20th

19     and I didn't know who appointed him, who signed it, and at whose

20     insistence.  Now I know that it was at the insistence of Sljivancanin.

21     In that part I was not sufficiently clear but I really didn't have any

22     intention of lying.  I simply misspoke maybe.

23        Q.   I want to -- I've got one question for you regarding your -- the

24     testimony of Ambassador Ahrens, who testified in this trial in August of

25     2013.  And you might remember his evidence about this.  It's at page 7741

Page 10640

 1     of the transcript.  He testified about having a conversation with you at

 2     Plitvice in August of 1993 when he gave you a list of prisoners, a list

 3     that he had received from wives, I believe family members of missing

 4     persons in Vukovar.  Do you remember his evidence on that?

 5        A.   I remember a large percentage of it.  I don't remember

 6     100 per cent, but I remember quite a lot.

 7        Q.   He was describing a walk that you took at Plitvice through the

 8     woods, and he said:

 9             "It was at that opportunity that I asked Mr. Hadzic to have a

10     look at a list of names drawn by a group of widows of Vukovar.  I don't

11     know whether this was one sheet or two sheets and I don't know how many

12     names there were, maybe between 50 and 150, all Croatian men, and the

13     widows or Croatian official, I don't recall who, gave that to me, asked

14     me whether I could find out something about these people, whether they

15     were alive or what was with them.  And Hadzic then declared himself ready

16     to have a look at this list and I gave it to him, and he quietly -- he

17     looked quietly at it and he looked attentively at it and then he said,

18     They are all dead.  He gave the list back to me.  I gave the list to the

19     Croats.  I have not kept a copy unfortunately."

20             Mr. Hadzic, who were the prisoners -- who were the people that

21     you had in mind on that day when you told Ambassador Ahrens that they

22     were all dead?

23        A.   I don't know whether you skipped something now or whether this

24     was admitted during the testimony itself.  The beginning of the

25     conversation was that the Croatian side thought that they were either in

Page 10641

 1     camps or in some other place in the territory of the SAO Krajina or in

 2     Serbia or that they were dead, and I said to the best of my knowledge

 3     there were no camps or prisons and no Croats were being kept secretly

 4     anywhere and that it is to be assumed that they were dead because that

 5     was two or three years after the events that had taken place.  They

 6     couldn't have been living somewhere else.  I did not know a single name

 7     from that list.

 8        Q.   So that's your -- that's your version -- that's your evidence in

 9     terms of this conversation you had with Mr. Ahrens, that it actually was

10     discussed about whether there were people in prisons and camps still to

11     be found?

12        A.   How else could we understand this if the question was whether

13     they were still alive?  They'd have to be alive somewhere in some prison.

14     So the logic of the question provides the logic of the answer.

15             MR. STRINGER:  May I have just a moment, Mr.  President.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I see, Mr. President, that Mr. Hadzic want to say

18     something.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you, if

20     possible, could we just have a five-minute break.  I would like to try to

21     take a little walk for five minutes because I feel pain in my lower

22     stomach, so I'm wondering what this is.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

24                            --- Break taken at 11.34 a.m.

25                            --- On resuming at 11.42 a.m.

Page 10642

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, are you okay now?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you very much indeed.

 3     I'm well.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, on the 14th of July, last month, you testified about

 7     an incident -- you commented on an incident that's alleged in the

 8     indictment in this case at paragraph 27.  This involves the allegation

 9     that TO members and policemen of SBWS, members of Arkan's units, arrested

10     and took Hungarians and Croats from Erdut, Dalj Planina, Erdut Planina,

11     to the training centre in Erdut and killed 12 of them in the process.

12             Do you remember your counsel asking you about -- to comment on

13     that?

14        A.   I remember that he asked me that, but I don't remember exactly

15     what it was that he did ask me.

16        Q.   He just made a reference to that part of the indictment and then

17     he made a reference also to paragraph 28 which alleges that members of

18     the Serb national security together with Arkan killed seven Hungarians.

19     And then he asked you if you'd seen from the annex of the indictment the

20     reference to -- to -- to members of the Benc family, the Pap family, the

21     Sanasi family who were the victims.  Do you remember him asking about

22     that?

23        A.   I remember.

24        Q.   And then he said.  Your counsel asked:

25             "Did you know any of them personally?"

Page 10643

 1             And you said:

 2             "Yes, I was even friends with the entire Pap family.  They were

 3     very good friends of mine, and I also knew the brother of one of the

 4     witnesses who appeared here.  But I knew him under the nickname Sabonja.

 5     He owned a restaurant at Dalj Planina, Dalj mountain, and I often went

 6     there."

 7             Do you remember that testimony?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   If you're not felling well, you can tell us, Mr. Hadzic, okay?

10        A.   Yes.  Thank you.  I'm feeling well.  No problem whatsoever

11     anymore.

12        Q.   And then counsel asked:

13             "As far as the Pap family is concerned who were friends of yours,

14     when did you find out that something had happened to them, that they were

15     no longer there, that they might have come to a bad end?"

16             And you said:

17             "I learned that in 1992.  I can't say exactly where but it was

18     warm, so it could have been spring or summer of 1992.  I asked passers-by

19     what had come of them -- and, by the way, I didn't know them under their

20     family name Pap, I knew them under their nicknames, and that restaurant

21     was called Saran."

22             Do you remember that as your evidence?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I asked passers-by why the restaurant was closed.

24        Q.   Now, I'd like to compare your testimony there with what you said

25     to Mr. Vladimir Dzuro when he asked you about the same incident back

Page 10644

 1     during your suspect interview in 2002.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  And for that, Mr. President, we would go to

 3     tab 1090, 65 ter 4974.09B.  And we have video -- we made a video-clip of

 4     it but I think it might just be faster to try and work with the

 5     transcript, if we can, because -- just may be more efficient.  And could

 6     I ask that we not broadcast this outside the courtroom because it does --

 7     we can talk about it.  We don't be identifying anyone.  But,

 8     Mr. President, the -- there is a reference to a statement that's being

 9     read to Mr. Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's okay, Mr. Stringer.

11             MR. STRINGER:

12        Q.   And here we see on page 18 that Mr. Dzuro is reading from a

13     statement, Mr. Hadzic.  And moving to page 19, which is what we're really

14     interested in, page 19 of the English.  He's reading you part of the

15     statement about -- he is saying:

16             "It was a small room used by Milorad Stricevic, Puki, for

17     interrogations of prisoners.  We walked in and Milorad Stricevic, Puki,

18     was already interrogating a prisoner.  Nebojsa Suco stood next to

19     Milorad Stricevic holding a baseball bat in his hands."

20             And then - I'm skipping a sentence:

21             "Zeljko Raznjatovic also was present in the room."

22             And I'm going to skip down just a line:

23             "When they brought them in, they would order them to kneel down

24     and put their hands behind their backs.  I saw their hands were not tied.

25     Milorad Stricevic, Puki, would ask their names and he would write them

Page 10645

 1     down in his papers.  He would then ask various questions and whenever a

 2     prisoner would answer, I don't know, Nebojsa Suco would hit him with a

 3     baseball bat."

 4             And then I'm going to skip down to another line:

 5             "Arkan's guards brought another man.  I believe that he was the

 6     owner of a cafe called Saran in Erdut Bijeljina," as it is typed here,

 7     which I'm going to suggest is Erdut Planina, "he was short, slightly

 8     overweight.  He spoke in a local Hungarian dialect.  He was wearing a

 9     green jumper with a certain pattern.  He was about 40 to 50 years old.

10     They started interrogating him, and when he replied that he didn't know

11     the answer, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, kicked him in the genitals and

12     then the man fell on the ground."

13             And this continues onto the next page of the English transcript.

14     I'm going to skip down about six or seven lines.  It goes on to describe

15     what was happening to this person.  And then what's read to you is:

16             "I only recall the names Sabonja or Saboto and Ivan or Josip Pap

17     which I saw identification papers for the persons brought in.  They were

18     all" -- sorry, "there were all Croatian Hungarians from Erdut and Erdut

19     Bijeljina," which, again, I would suggest is Planina, "there must have

20     been 15 or 20 of them detained in the prison which made the prison full."

21             Now continuing down some more, finally, at the end there,

22     Mr. Dzuro says:

23             "So it continues.  I was going to read further about the

24     activities of the SNB.  Do you want to comment so far?"

25             And what you said is:

Page 10646

 1             "I can only say that I know nothing about this and what I think

 2     of Puki I told you already about this Stricevic."

 3             Now, Mr. Hadzic, this is your suspect in 2002, and recognising

 4     your claim that you didn't know the family name Pap but that you only

 5     knew nicknames.  What we do know here is that Mr. Dzuro read to you a

 6     witness statement that referred to the arrest, detention and beating of

 7     Hungarians from Erdut Planina, the Planina.  It refers to the restaurant

 8     Saran.  Same restaurant you referred to in your testimony in this trial.

 9        A.   Yes, yes, we called that restaurant Kod Ferike.

10        Q.   And, finally, Mr. Dzuro read the name -- he mentioned the name of

11     Sabonja from the statement which also is one of the nicknames you knew

12     from one of the Pap family members.  You mentioned -- you mentioned that

13     in your direct evidence in this case when you were describing the Pap

14     family.  You knew about the brother, nicknamed Sabonja.  You knew they

15     were Hungarians from the Planina.  You knew they had a restaurant.  You

16     knew the restaurant was called Saran.  And all of these things were

17     mentioned to you in your suspect interview, and yet at the time you

18     claimed that you knew nothing about this.

19             So I'm going to suggest, Mr. Hadzic, that in fact in your suspect

20     interview you did know about these people.  You just didn't want to admit

21     and you were seeking to distance yourself from them.  Isn't that true?

22        A.   It's not true.  You got things confused here.  If you allow me to

23     correct you?  Sobonja, that's a completely different person.  He is the

24     brother of a lady witness who testified here and he came to a tragic end.

25     I heard that.  I cannot remember his real name and surname now.  He has

Page 10647

 1     nothing to do with the Pap family.  That's not his last name.

 2             As for the restaurant, Saran I only realised later that that was

 3     its name.  We called it Kod Ferike and Ferike is the old man who was

 4     beaten here.  That was the description.  And he had two sons.  One was

 5     also called Ferike, and the other one was Mihajlan [phoen].  We called

 6     him Misi.  I did not know the name of their mother.  That's the only name

 7     I didn't know so I addressed her as madam, and I knew that their last

 8     name was Pap, and they were my friends.

 9        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to put it to you that Mr. Dzuro provided

10     you with an ample amount of information to link the people he is

11     referring to, the incident he is referring to, to what you knew of the

12     Pap family, suggesting that you were not candid with him, you knew more

13     than you told him at the time, and to this day you knew more than you're

14     telling us as well.  Isn't that true?

15        A.   Well, I don't even know what I said to him, what he asked me

16     about, expect for this bit that you read to me about Stricevic.

17        Q.   Mr. Zivanovic also asked you to comment on the incident that is

18     addressed in paragraph 9 of the indictment in this case, which is the

19     incident involving the people who had been arrested by Arkan in Klisa and

20     brought to Erdut to the training centre there.  And I want to here again

21     compare your evidence, your comment about that in this case to what you

22     said to Mr. Dzuro in your suspect interview.

23             Now, this is the 14th of July, in this case, transcript 9737.

24     And Mr. Zivanovic actually referred -- he said:

25             "Do you know anything about the arrests of these people from

Page 10648

 1     Klisa?  Do you know anything about the incident?  What you can tell us?

 2             And you said:

 3             "I'll tell you all I know about this incident, but it was only

 4     ten years later that I really learned what happened.  I heard the details

 5     only here in The Hague during the witness evidence.  Towards the end of

 6     1991, on the 11th of November, 1991, I came from Novi Sad to Erdut in the

 7     morning.  The driver told me three men who were standing to the side were

 8     looking for me, looking for a fourth man, who was not from Klisa unlike

 9     the first three.  Among them was a man whom they knew.  He worked as a

10     car mechanic in Erdut.  Those three men, I knew them.  I knew they were

11     from Klisa.  I played football with them.  They asked me if I was able to

12     assist them because they had a report that some people who had been in

13     the fields doing their farm work, as I thought then, had been arrested."

14             Again, this is your evidence from last month:

15             "Later I learned that they were actually arrested and some were

16     near their workplace, and these men also said that this could have been

17     done by Arkan's Men and I said -- I thought, in fact, that they were not

18     able to go there where Arkan's Men were based."

19             And then you go on to describe -- not going to go all through it.

20     But you say:

21             "There was only 100 yards to the gate of their base, and I said,

22     Wait for me.  I'll go there.  I literally ran to that gate along with my

23     escort, and when I came to the gate I saw Arkan.  I asked him if he knew

24     anything about any arrests in Klisa, if he had any information at all.

25     He seemed very nervous and upset which I couldn't understand at the time.

Page 10649

 1     He said, Why does everyone blame me for everything?  I am not the police.

 2     I have nothing to do with arrests."

 3             I'm going to skip down in your testimony to talk more about your

 4     conversation with Arkan.

 5             And then you say:

 6             "And then he," Arkan, "asked, Who told you this."

 7             And you said:

 8             "But I realised those men would be in trouble if I told them who

 9     they were -- if I told him who they were.  So I just left there.  I

10     said" --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The counsel is kindly asked to slow down for

12     the sake of interpretation.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Apologies:

14             "But I realised those men would be in trouble if I told him who

15     they were, so I just left there.  I said, Okay, if you don't know

16     anything.  And I left.  I went back to those three men and told him those

17     people were not in Arkan's base.  One of them was called Ormaz and

18     another was called Rajko."

19             And then you went on to talk, Mr. Hadzic, in your direct

20     testimony, if you recall, you described how your wife went to try to find

21     some of these people, to talk to them about that incident.  Do you

22     remember describing that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

24             MR. STRINGER:

25        Q.   And then in your evidence you said:

Page 10650

 1             "Anyway, I told those men what I found out and went towards that

 2     place where the government seat was.  And then I saw Djordje Djukovic,

 3     who was a friend of mine also from Klisa, and I said in passing, Those

 4     people are not held by Arkan.  And forgot one more thing.  Arkan said to

 5     me, Why are you looking for them.  They are Ustashas.  They must have

 6     defected to the Croatian side."

 7             And then you continue.  You said:

 8             "And I told Cukovic that those people were not held by Arkan

 9     because I knew he was from Klisa.  Then I went into my office where some

10     people were waiting to have a meeting with me, went out from the canteen

11     came Mica Panisic, who was the manager of an enterprise called Dalj."

12             And then goes on to describe your encounter with him.  You said:

13             "He was talking and making a racket.  I didn't even know he was

14     manager of those people because I didn't make the connection."

15             So, Mr. Hadzic, that's a pretty full account of your awareness or

16     your involvement, if I can put it that way, with the inquiry that was

17     made after these people from Klisa.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Now if we could please have 65 ter 4974.08D.  This

19     is tab 1089 Mr. President.  And going to page 8 there of the English

20     transcript.  Now, again, in the suspect interview -- and if we could

21     please -- well, we can actually broadcast this, Mr. President, because

22     Mr. Dzuro is actually reading this same incident as it's alleged in the

23     Slobodan Milosevic indictment which was a public document.  And he says:

24             "I will now look into the indictment of Slobodan Milosevic versus

25     the Prosecutor for crimes in Croatia."

Page 10651

 1             And then he refers to the 11th of November, 1991, the same day

 2     you just -- you just -- your testimony:

 3             "Members of the TO SAO SBWS under the command of

 4     Zeljko Raznjatovic arrested seven non-Serbs, civilians in the village of

 5     Klisa."

 6             So he just goes on to describe the detainees from Klisa, two of

 7     them were released; five of them held, interrogated, killed, and buried.

 8             And then he says:

 9             "Do you know anything about the case where the people were

10     arrested were employed by IPK Dalj were arrested and taken to the

11     training centre in Dalj, in Erdut, sorry, in Erdut."

12             And you say:

13             "No, I know nothing about that."

14             Mr. Hadzic, that's quite a stark contrast from the rather

15     detailed account you've given this Trial Chamber about your efforts to

16     find out about these Klisa people.  Why didn't you give that account to

17     Mr. Dzuro?  Why didn't you tell him about it?

18        A.   Because when he put that question to me that way I really didn't

19     know at that time that those people from were IPK Dalj, that they were in

20     fact from Klisa.  What I knew about them was that they had been digging

21     somewhere in Klisa - I didn't know that they were employed somewhere -

22     and together with them they defected to the Croatian side.  I thought

23     maybe that this was some other group.  I didn't know they were killed.  I

24     only heard (redacted)

25     (redacted) happened and then I made the connections.


Page 10652

 1        Q.   Now, this goes on and we should not broadcast, Mr. President,

 2     what's -- what's now -- we see on the page - I apologise - is part of a

 3     statement that I think should not be broadcast.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  All right, Mr. Stringer.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  And if we could just for a moment move into

 6     private session, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session please.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             MR. STRINGER:

19        Q.   So here we are in your suspect interview, Mr. Hadzic.  Mr. Dzuro

20     is reading you the statement of a person, a witness.  And what he is

21     reading to you from the statement, here we see in the third line says:

22             "I decided to go with Djordje Cukovic from Klisa to Erdut to

23     [sic] make some inquiries."

24             And so then the statement goes on to talk about that.  They

25     walked in the cabinet.


Page 10653

 1             And then moving to the next page, page 10, again the statement

 2     says:

 3             "Having left the office we walked through the hall where we met

 4     with Goran Hadzic.  He was coming in with some people.  Djordje Cukovic

 5     explained to Goran Hadzic that the family members of the missing from

 6     Klisa were coming to his home and asked [sic] him what had happened to

 7     them."

 8        A.   Could I see the next page in my version.  I don't see this.

 9        Q.   Do you have it now?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So, Mr. Hadzic, in your direct testimony in this case after

12     describing what you did for those three men, three or four men from Klisa

13     who had come and met you at the gate after you went over to ask Arkan

14     what have become of these people from Klisa, and your testimony in this

15     case you go on to talk about encountering Mr. Cukovic and another person

16     or the same question or very similar question comes up and that is the

17     fate of some people from Klisa.  Mr. Dzuro is asking you very

18     significantly similar about -- he is providing you with very similar

19     information, asking you to comment on this.  And yet as we see at the

20     bottom of page 10, you claimed:

21             "I don't remember that event.  I don't even know how they

22     addressed me.  I don't know ... I quite certainly didn't realise that

23     they were missing.  If I had known, I quite certainly would have tried to

24     do something about it [sic]."

25             Now, the fact is, Mr. Hadzic, that these very significant


Page 10654

 1     discrepancies, difference between what you said to Mr. Dzuro in 2002 and

 2     what you've told this Trial Chamber, really can't be reconciled.  And the

 3     fact is that this evidence, this -- this story you've come up with now

 4     about trying to go inquire with Arkan is just a fabrication, isn't it?

 5        A.   No.  I mean, I have to explain this.  Since we are in open

 6     session, I will not be mentioning names, but what was read from the

 7     statement to me is simply not true.  That witness simply made up

 8     something and mixed things up and I couldn't recognise the story.  I had

 9     seen him only for ten seconds.  I couldn't connects the dots.  What radio

10     station?  What story?  I never heard anyone mention the radio station.  I

11     thought it was a made-up story.  Here during my testimony only I

12     understood what story that was.  What it was about.  And what people it

13     concerned.  I didn't even know that those people had been killed, those

14     that I made inquiries.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Could we briefly pass into private session,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10655

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MR. STRINGER:

25        Q.   What we see here on page 13, Mr. Hadzic, after Mr. Dzuro is


Page 10656

 1     asking you to comment on the names of victims, and here you said that you

 2     didn't know them by their family name, maybe nicknames.  Then again,

 3     paragraph 54 which is from the Milosevic indictment, this is what you

 4     said:

 5             "This is what we talked about just a while ago in connection with

 6     Klisa; right?  Everything that I said -- I knew I already said.  I don't

 7     know anything further than that."

 8             So, Mr. Hadzic, you had, in fact, made the connection with Klisa,

 9     to the missing people from Klisa that you were being asked about, and at

10     that time, despite what you've said in this trial, at that time you

11     claimed you didn't know anything about it.  Isn't that so?

12        A.   It's not true.  I didn't connect the fact that those were one and

13     the same people.  I didn't know that the workers from Klisa were employed

14     in Dalj.  I didn't connect these two things.  The distance runs in

15     kilometres.  I didn't realise it was one and the same company.

16             MR. STRINGER:  That would be all for -- on this, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

18             Court adjourned.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Before we start, I'd like just to -- to let you know that the

24     question from the Prosecution, on the page 59, line 51 [sic] through page

25     60, line 6, are misrepresented, because the Prosecution failed to quote

Page 10657

 1     the two-page -- on two page before on the screen that Mr. Dzuro,

 2     investigator of the Prosecution, gave to the witness the indictment from

 3     Milosevic, and all those names were read from this -- that indictment.

 4     Sorry.  However, we'll -- we'll clarify it in our re-direct.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 6             Mr. Stringer.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, during your direct examination at transcript

 9     page 9673 by your counsel, Mr. Zivanovic, asked you, did you know that

10     during 1991 there was some exchange of prisoners in the territory of

11     SBWS.

12             And you said:

13             "I do know that."

14             And he asked:

15             "Can you tell us how it came about?

16             And you said:

17             "I was not personally involved, but I found out from

18     Ilija Koncarevic about it and also through the media.  There was also a

19     delegation that visited us from SFRY.  It was they who organised these

20     prisoner exchanges."

21             Do you remember that testimony?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23        Q.   And then in our parts of your evidence, your direct examination,

24     you asserted that the prisoner exchanges were exclusively within the

25     authority of the JNA.  Is that also your position?

Page 10658

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You said at transcript page 9676:

 3             "It was all decided by federal institutions."

 4             Is that how it was?

 5        A.   Yes.  To the best of my knowledge, yes.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have Exhibit P3119, which is

 7     tab -- sorry, Mr. President.  We don't have a tab number for this one.

 8     This was added after the direct evidence, or the direct examination, I

 9     should say.

10        Q.   Now, this is from the 6th of August, 1991, Mr. Hadzic, report on

11     the activities of the commission for implementing the decision of the

12     SFRY Presidency on immediate absolute cease-fire.

13             Do you remember this commission, Mr. Hadzic?  Do you remember the

14     work of this in August of 1991?

15        A.   Right now, I can't remember.  Maybe if you could show me

16     something it could jog my memory.  But right now I can't remember.

17        Q.   On page 5 of the English version.  And the B/C/S, it's under the

18     heading Roman numeral III, this sets out the membership of the

19     commission, the commission's working group, I should say, consisting of

20     the people we see here.  Tupurkosvski, Bogicevic, the names continue,

21     representatives of Serbian people eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and

22     Western Srem with the participation of Goran Hadzic, Ilija Koncarevic,

23     Vitomir Devetak, Knezevic, Bogic, Petrovic.

24             Does this help you remember, Mr. Hadzic, that you were involved

25     in this commission in August of 1991?

Page 10659

 1        A.   I was not involved in its work.  We had that meeting.  I remember

 2     Vasil Tupurkovski and Bogic Bogicevic had come from Belgrade.  I don't

 3     remember Gracanin and the other person.  We had some meeting in Vajska

 4     but we were not members of that commission.  We were not part of it.

 5        Q.   Do you recall that this commission also dealt with the issue of

 6     prisoner exchange?

 7        A.   From what I recall, it was at the level of the Presidency of the

 8     SFRY.  They decided about it.  I don't know what the commission was

 9     doing.  I was not a member.

10        Q.   Could we at least agree that either you or members of your

11     government, or, I should say what was to be the government of the SBWS in

12     August of 1991, were actually participating or were involved in the

13     issues regarding prisoner exchange?

14        A.   No, nobody from the government was there, only Ilija Koncarevic,

15     but he was not there as a representative of the government.  He was there

16     because he had some connections with people from Belgrade and later he

17     was in the assembly, but he did not come from the government.  Even today

18     I don't know what kind of contact he had with them, but he was not there

19     as a member of the government.

20        Q.   Could we please have tab 1717 -- apologies.  No, it's not

21     tab 1717.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MR. STRINGER:  Yeah.  This is a FBIS document, Mr. President,

24     1D03021.1.  We've made a redacted version of it because the FBIS

25     documents have that confidentiality issue, and so this is a -- this would

Page 10660

 1     be a public redacted version of what's already in evidence as D134 which

 2     is the document at tab 1717.

 3        Q.   This is a news report, Mr. Hadzic, "Tanjug," Belgrade.  And

 4     again, this is 8th of August, 1991, meeting of the SFRY Presidency's

 5     Commission on Cease-fire, and it names the people whose names we just saw

 6     in the previous document, at least some of them.  Koncarevic and Petrovic

 7     here are named as the representatives.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   I see that in English.  But I don't really understand it.

 9        Q.   It's my -- my question is simply whether these two gentlemen --

10     would you agree these two gentlemen were involved in the issue of this

11     commission -- the issues of this commission?

12        A.   I'm not sure.  I know Ilija Koncarevic was involved with

13     exchanges, and he made lists of Serbs who had remained on the Croatian

14     side, Serbs who were supposed to be exchanged.  But I didn't understand

15     that he had formally been appointed to that job.

16        Q.   And moving down to paragraph 4 of this document, makes reference

17     to members of the commission, et cetera, "will visit tomorrow 9th of

18     August, the villages of Dalj and Sarvas to solve the pressing problems in

19     these villages."

20        A.   I see.

21        Q.   Do you know whether -- do you recall that visit?  Do you recall

22     the event that's referred to there, 9th of August?

23        A.   I don't remember now.  I don't remember this specific date.  I

24     believe Tupurkovski visited Dalj once more, but I don't know on which

25     date.

Page 10661

 1        Q.   And part of what they were doing was dealing with the issue of

 2     prisoners, lists of individuals and prisoners and exchanges.  Isn't that,

 3     at least in part, what this was about?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I can't give evidence about it.  I see as much as

 5     you do from -- from this.  But I don't know anything about it.

 6        Q.   Let's move to one -- sorry.  I want to go to your testimony,

 7     Mr. Hadzic, in this case.  Transcript page 9676.  You were being asked by

 8     your counsel about your attendance at one meeting at Borovo Selo of this

 9     working group from the Presidency.  You were there alongside Koncarevic,

10     Petrovic, Kojic.  You said, yes, you remember it because Drazen Budisa

11     and Zivko Milosevic were also there.  Do you remember that?

12        A.   I remember when Drazen Budisa and Zivko Jusbasic were there, not

13     Milosevic as I heard in the interpretation.

14        Q.   Well, I'm looking at page 9676 of the transcript, and according

15     to that, you did mention Mr. Zivko Milosevic there at the time of your

16     direct exam.

17        A.   That's a mistake.  It's Zivko Jusbasic who was on some Croatian

18     delegation.  He was an ethnic Serb but he was part of the Croatian

19     authorities.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 920 which is Exhibit

21     P2988.

22        Q.   Now, this is a report, Mr. Hadzic, this is from the Zagreb radio

23     Croatia network but it does refer to an exchange of prisoners and the

24     participation of various people that we've just been talking about

25     beginning in paragraph 2.  It's a recording of Mr. Tupurkovski.  Refers

Page 10662

 1     to a visit to Borovo Selo; talks on the implementation on the decision of

 2     cease-fire.

 3             Now, do you remember that meeting?  Is this the meeting I was

 4     just asking you about from your testimony in Borovo Selo?

 5        A.   Yes, that's the meeting where the cease-fire was discussed.  I do

 6     not remember having the exchange of prisoners discussed.  It says here

 7     Zivko Jusbasic as I have testified, not Milosevic.

 8        Q.   Well, Mr. Hadzic at page 9676 of your testimony on direct

 9     examination, Mr. Zivanovic was asking you about one meeting at

10     Borovo Selo of this working group, and you said you were there.  And he

11     asked you is it true that this all-for-all prisoner exchange referred to

12     in paragraph 1 - we can go to that document - took place?

13             And you said, "Yes, it's true.  Actually, and then you went on to

14     correct that it should be Jusko.  You corrected the name.

15             Does that refresh your memory from your earlier testimony that --

16     that you agree that there was an all-for-all prisoner exchange that was

17     part of the discussions at this Borovo Selo meeting that you attended.

18        A.   Well, I remember that that exchange was all for all.  There's no

19     denying that.  But I don't remember that we made any decisions on that.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 920 which is

21     Exhibit 2988.  Sorry.  That's the one we just had.  Tab 1700.

22     65 ter 4809.22.  This is a video-clip.  And the interpreters should have

23     this in the booths, so we'll wait to hear that they've got it handy.

24     65 ter 4809.22.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We've got.  Thank you.

Page 10663

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "That would be the condition for

 3     further negotiations.  Would that be an all-for-all -- on an all-for-all

 4     basis or not?

 5             "Goran Hadzic:  Only on an all-for-all basis.  That has been

 6     agreed before.  At the beginning of our conversation, Mr. Budisa stressed

 7     that he did not recognise the national council and said that we were only

 8     representatives of our people.  We replied that we also did not recognise

 9     the government of Croatia and that we participate in negotiations as

10     representatives of the Serbian and Croatian people, that we do not

11     negotiate with the government of Croatia.  That is how we reached the

12     agreement."

13             MR. STRINGER:

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, does that clip relate to your involvement in the

15     prisoner exchange, the all-for-all prisoner exchange, in August of 1991?

16        A.   Well, I think it does, now that I've seen it.

17             MR. STRINGER:  We tender that, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3233, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. STRINGER:

22        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you remember that the SBWS TO led by

23     Ilija Koncarevic with the assistance of Milan Martic and units under his

24     command captured the town of Bilje at the beginning of September 1993?

25        A.   I think that Ilija Koncarevic was never a member of the

Page 10664

 1     Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  But I don't

 2     know.  I don't remember that.

 3        Q.   That's my mistake.  I meant to say Ilija Kojic.

 4        A.   Also this is the first time I hear that Ilija Kojic took part in

 5     these operations in Baranja.  What I knew was that this was done by the

 6     JNA, that unit from Sombor.  That they took part in that conflict.

 7     That's what I heard about from these people in Baranja.  I hadn't known

 8     anything about it.  I think that Martic certainly had not been there.

 9     Had he been there, I would have to hear about it from someone.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 103, 65 ter 4869.3.  And

11     this is also video footage.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.  Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I don't know whether the year is correct

14     in line 11.  Page 67, line 11.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.  I appreciate that.  Maybe I misspoke

16     there as well.

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I'm asking you if you knew about an operation

18     resulting in the -- the capture or the liberation of Bilje in September,

19     early September, 1991.

20        A.   Yes.  My understanding was that you were referring to 1991, so I

21     didn't even notice 1993.  It's only later that I heard about this.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. STRINGER:  So this video-clip here that we're about to look

24     at, 65 ter 4869.3, if the interpreters have it, we can play that.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it.  Thank you.

Page 10665

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Last night soldiers from the

 3     so-called Croatian National Guard Corps pounded the Trepelje [phoen]

 4     neighbourhood of Borovo Selo.  Mortars positioned in Borovo Naselje and

 5     Vukovar.  As a result, six defenders were wounded, two of them seriously.

 6     They were immediately taken to Vajska on the opposite bank of the Danube.

 7     There was no panic amongst the defenders.  There was panic though among

 8     members of the guard corps and the MUP in Bilje and on the positions

 9     around Osijek where Martic's Kninjas crushed them and captured some 30

10     combatants of Tudjman's.  They are now in police custody of the

11     Autonomous District in Borovo Selo and are being questioned.  Early this

12     morning the village of Palaca came under mortar and small-arms attacks in

13     which about 30 defenders of the villages of Palaca and Markusica who came

14     to their aid were wounded.  The wounded fighters have told us about

15     casualties of these attacks.  Tudjman's combatants have also been

16     attacking the village of Brsadin trying to capture it at any cost.

17     Brsadin is an extremely important strategic point on the Vukovar-Vinkovci

18     Road.  The government of the Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and

19     Western Srem met in its Dalj headquarters today to specify the ministry's

20     duties in this difficult period.  It is definitely the biggest news that

21     officials of the Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem

22     and SAO of Krajina have been invited to a meeting of ministers that is to

23     be head in The Hague on the 7th of September.  On this occasion,

24     Prime Minister Hadzic told Belgrade television as follows.

25             "Goran Hadzic:  We have been invited.  I have not received the

Page 10666

 1     official invitation yet but the foreign minister has told me over the

 2     phone that we might go to The Hague on Saturday and this would be the

 3     final formal recognition even though we have already been recognised,

 4     only this would be the formal recognition of the world public."

 5             MR. STRINGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, does this help you remember the Bilje operation and

 7     the capture of about 30 Croatian fighters in early September 1991?

 8        A.   Well, it doesn't really help me.  I don't remember that I knew

 9     anything about these operations at the time when they were taking place.

10     It's only later that I heard that Bilje was free and that one could go

11     there.  But it wasn't my understanding that Martic had taken part in

12     that.  At that time I didn't know that.  This is the first time I see

13     this report on TV.  And I don't think this was a government meeting.  As

14     far as I managed to see the faces very quickly, I saw only myself and

15     Kojic, as far as the government is concerned, and the others I managed to

16     catch a glimpse of, they are neighbours, friends, not members of the

17     government.

18        Q.   It refers to the announcement that you would be going to

19     The Hague on I think the following day or within a day or two on the 7th

20     of September.  Are you able to comment on that part of the video and

21     indicate whether that is an accurate statement of -- an accurate

22     reflection of what was happening in respect of The Hague?

23        A.   Caslav Otic said that to me that we would be invited to go to

24     The Hague.  But later on I heard that Babic had refused so we couldn't go

25     either.

Page 10667

 1        Q.   In any event, this happened in early September, then, this

 2     possibility of going to The Hague and its connection to the government

 3     meeting or the reference to the government meeting that we just saw?

 4        A.   Oh, no.  It wasn't discussed at that meeting.  I mean, going to

 5     The Hague.  In my view, these three things have nothing do with one

 6     another.  Prisoners, the government session, this interview of mine;

 7     these are three completely different things.  This journalist made this

 8     compilation.  But I remember that at that time Mr. Henry Wijnaendts came

 9     to Borovo Selo and Mr. Ahrens somehow around the 6th of September.

10        Q.   That's right.  And that's what we're going to talk about in just

11     a minute or two.  You've referred to Mr. Ahrens' testimony.  And for the

12     record, this is at 7678 to 7680 of the transcript.  He talked about

13     coming to Boro on the 6th of September, meeting with you.  And do you

14     recall his testimony about what he and his colleague saw during a break

15     in the negotiations when they went down and they were able to see

16     prisoners behind a grated window from a table.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   I remember that he talked about that but I didn't understand that

18     that could be seen from the table where we were.  He said that he saw

19     that when he went out of the building to take walk.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1032 which is P244 P244.

21     This is another video, so we'll wait for the interpreters.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we please have the

23     65 ter number.  Thank you.

24             MR. STRINGER:  4869.1.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We've found it.

Page 10668

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter:  Despite fears, clashes

 3     between the defender and the Ustashai soldiers, the territorial districts

 4     of the Autonomous District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem are

 5     fully in control of the situation.  Martic's Kninjas have captured Bilje,

 6     a strategically important point in the vicinity of Osijek and broke up

 7     Tudjman's formations.  We spoke to Ilija Kojic, commander of the

 8     Territorial Defence, and Milan Martic, secretary of the Krajina MUP,

 9     about the situation in this part of Slavonia and the claims of the

10     Croatian television that Martic has brought tanks into Borovo Selo.

11             "Ilija Kojic:  Well, the current situation is difficult because

12     they are not observing the truces.  This was evident last night when over

13     50 mortar and cannon shells landed in Borovo Selo.  They continued

14     targeting Belo Brdo throughout the night and this morning.  Fighting has

15     been going on since this morning at Palaca and Silas.  There are many

16     wounded but no dead so far.  We shall see later how the situation

17     develops.

18             "Reporter:  What do you think is the key to this problem, so to

19     speak?

20             "Ilija Kojic:  Well, essentially the problem is that they do not

21     observe anything.  They disregard everything and show no represent for

22     rules, agreements, or anything.  They just do as they please and they act

23     accordingly.

24             "Milan Martic:  Well, the tanks belong to the

25     Yugoslav People's Army and it is well known that we and the army have a

Page 10669

 1     common goal.  It is true that we have brought Kninja special troops here

 2     and the results are already obvious.  Bilje has been liberated and some

 3     30 guardsmen have been arrested.  They are here.  I believe that the

 4     effects of the Kninjas' performance are evident and that they played a

 5     significant role in this whole operation.

 6             "Reporter:  That Martic's fighters mean business has been

 7     demonstrated by the fact that some 30 members of the MUP are imprisoned

 8     in Borovo Selo after having been captured in the clashes yesterday.

 9             "A male voice:  I was captured in Bilje.  When we were attacked

10     we surrendered.  I was in the reserve forces of the guard corps.  We

11     were assigned to defend the village.  We were guarding the village."

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, we've seen two video-clips here that talk about

14     the operation at Bilje in September, the capture of 30 Croat prisoners,

15     Martic and his Kninjas there.  Kojic is talking about it.  There are

16     references to over 50 mortar and cannon shells landing in Borovo Selo.

17     You must remember this, Mr. Hadzic.  You do remember this, don't you,

18     these events in early September?

19        A.   Well, I've already said that I do not remember.  At that time

20     nobody had told me about this.  Otherwise, too, the polices never gave me

21     any reports, not even when I was president of the republic.  And then

22     also they probably thought that I was not a reliable enough to receive

23     reports especially about these military matters.

24        Q.   Well, we have just seen footage of you in the government meeting

25     with Mr. Kojic there.  So where were you then?  I mean, you were either

Page 10670

 1     in Dalj or Borovo, Mr. Hadzic.  I mean, how could you not know about all

 2     of these events?  Forgive me.

 3        A.   There's no need for you to apologise.  I think that a picture was

 4     taken of me in Dalj and this journalist in the white shirt -- I didn't

 5     recognise the journalist.  These were not members of the government.

 6     These were people who stopped by to chat with me in Dalj.  I recognised

 7     one of my neighbours.  I'm not even sure of the time-frame, when this

 8     took place.

 9        Q.   All right.  I want to just replay a little bit of this footage

10     from -- if we could start it from here.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   Are you able to read the name that we see there, Mr. Hadzic?

14        A.   Zeljko Filipovic.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, these are the prisoners, captured prisoners, who were

18     being held in Borovo Selo at the time that you met with Ambassador Ahrens

19     there.  Isn't that true?

20        A.   Mr. Ahrens testified about that.  He said that he saw them when

21     he got out of the building.

22        Q.   Do you know this man who is identified as Zeljko Filipovic?

23        A.   I think that the last name I read was Filipovic.  The name was

24     Zeljko Filipovic.  Yes, it is typed up properly here.  No, I didn't know

25     anybody from Bilje.  I didn't know any Serbs or Croats.


Page 10671

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1134, P118.111.11.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Confidential one, Mr. Stringer?

 3             MR. STRINGER:  This is the public redacted version,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  111.1.

 7        Q.   We've looked at this document a few times, Mr. Hadzic.  These are

 8     the group of prisoners involved in the incident on the

 9     21st of September, 1991.  And among the names of those people who were

10     referred to as having been led out by Arkan, we see a name Zeljko

11     Filipcoc.  What's going to indicate here -- I'm going to suggest to you

12     that it's Mr. Filipovic, the gentleman we just saw in the video who was

13     being held in Borovo in early September, just a few weeks earlier.  Do

14     you know how he came from Borovo Selo to Dalj?

15        A.   Well, what I read over there was Zeljko Filipovic.  I don't know

16     whether it's that person.  I just know that there was this exchange,

17     all-for-all, and I really don't know if anybody stayed behind.  I really

18     don't know?

19        Q.   Do you recall the testimony of Witness GH-003?

20             MR. STRINGER:  Can we go into private session, Mr. --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

22             MR. STRINGER:  -- President.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10672

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, just for the record, it's our

18     submission that the person indicated or shown in the video talking, the

19     prisoner is one of those scheduled as a victim in regard to paragraph 24

20     of the indictment.  Flipcic.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I saw some differences -- differences in

23     last name of this person.  As far as I recall it on the video, there was

24     a last name Filipsic and here is Filicic and the witness read Filipovic.

25     So I see there are differences, I think, in the last name.  Just for the


Page 10673

 1     record.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think we all saw that, Mr. Zivanovic.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  And we agree.  I think it's pretty obvious,

 4     actually, that there are differences in the witness's name as shown on

 5     the television versus the name as it is set out in the exhibit, the

 6     report that we were just looking at.  So we do concede that,

 7     Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue, Mr. Stringer.

 9             MR. STRINGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, during your direct examination, you were asked some

11     questions about how you saw your authority and your powers during the

12     time that you were president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and I've

13     got some follow-up on that.

14             On page 9838, on the 15th of July, counsel, Mr. Zivanovic, asked

15     you:

16             "How do understand this particular responsibility?"

17             And here he is referring to Article 78 of the constitution of the

18     Republic of Serbian Krajina and we're going to look at that in a few

19     minutes, particularly in regard to the authority under the constitution

20     that the president controls armed forces in peace and war and people's

21     resistance in war time, and we'll talk more about this in a moment, but

22     what your answer was -- at that time was to say:

23             "I should only like to say that this constitution of

24     19 December, 1991, was adopted when Milan Babic was president, and in

25     gest, my friends and I called it Babic's constitution.  And in this part

Page 10674

 1     that relates to the responsibilities of the president, only Babic's

 2     picture was missing.  In my own exercise of the duties of president, I

 3     did not want the duties and powers of the president of the republic to be

 4     so great."

 5             You continued:

 6             "As for your question, especially as far as military aspects are

 7     concerned, I understood my position as president of the republic in a

 8     very realistic way in the sense that I was aware of my lack of knowledge

 9     and experience."

10             And you continued, Mr. Hadzic.  You said:

11             "And when you read this point controls armed forces, to me it

12     meant a political function because command required professional skills

13     and I didn't have them."

14             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I believe there's an intervention.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry about that.  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I would suggest if we could see on the

17     screen the original text from the constitution and the translation of

18     this text -- of this article -- particular article.  Because as far as I

19     recall, the word "control" was not used.

20             MR. STRINGER:  We will go to that.  It's actually the word that

21     appears in the transcript.  I just read the transcript.  I don't know

22     whether it's a word that counsel used during his direct examination or

23     whether there's some mistake.  But, in any event, we'll clarify it when

24     we get to the text of the constitution, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, the first thing I wanted to point out to you is

Page 10675

 1     because you seem to -- you said you understood your position as president

 2     in a realistic way, aware of your lack of knowledge and experience, and

 3     regarding armed forces it meant a political function because command

 4     required professional skills and I didn't have them.

 5             The fact that you as a civilian were the head or we'll look at

 6     the text, whatever it is in the constitution, Commander-in-Chief,

 7     perhaps, of the armed forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I mean,

 8     it's not unusual, is it, for a civilian to be -- for a civilian president

 9     to be the one ultimately responsible for the armed forces of his country?

10        A.   I don't know that.  I know that under the constitution, the issue

11     at hand was command and control.  That was the formulation in the

12     constitution.  I had no right to command, and I made inquiries with

13     experts to find out what the distinction was and I didn't know until then

14     what the distinction was.

15        Q.   What civilian presidents do is to listen to the advice of their

16     military commanders, make decisions, and otherwise exercise the duties

17     and the responsibilities that they have under the constitution in respect

18     of the armed forces.  And that's what you did, isn't it?

19        A.   I was a member of the Supreme Defence Council equal to all the

20     other members and we made decisions jointly.  At that time we were under

21     attack from the Croatian side, and we only made reactive decisions.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would just indicate that we

24     strongly object to the translation of the term B/C/S term "rukovodjenje"

25     as "the control."

Page 10676

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have L3, which is the RSK

 3     constitution.  And I'll have the tab number in just a moment,

 4     Mr. President.  It's tab number 382.  And we will go straight to

 5     Article 78, which is page 22, starts on page 22 of the English version.

 6     Article 78.

 7        Q.   Because this sets out the powers of the president of the

 8     republic, Mr. Hadzic, and I'm going to suggest that, in fact, you

 9     exercised these powers without reservation during the time that you were

10     president of the republic.

11             Under the constitution, Mr. Hadzic, first of all, you could

12     nominate candidates for the government members, as it says here, having

13     heard the opinion of the assembly.

14             Item 2, you could nominate to the assembly a candidate for the

15     presiding judge and judges of the constitutional court.

16             You could, number 3, enact -- under item 3, enact laws by decree.

17     And we know that you did that.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Tab 443, L45.  Tab 443, if I misspoke.  L45.  Now

19     if we can blow up the B/C/S version because I want to correct this

20     transcript or this translation I should say.  Thank you.

21        Q.   This is law number 66, Mr. Hadzic.  Do you see this is the

22     Law on Measures in the Event of a State of Emergency?

23        A.   I see that.

24        Q.   And in the original language version we actually see this is

25     being done pursuant to Article 78, item 3, of the constitution; correct?

Page 10677

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Because that actually is not included in the English translation,

 3     Mr. President, and so we're going to be requesting the translation be

 4     corrected.

 5             So this is just one example, Mr. Hadzic, of your -- well, we

 6     could go to the end.  And can we agree that this law was enacted with

 7     your approval or pursuant to your authorities under Article 78, item 3 of

 8     the RSK constitution?

 9        A.   I agree with you, only we should add here with my formal

10     approval.  Because whatever was brought to me, I would sign.  I did not

11     discuss it, and I didn't understand much about it.

12        Q.   And it was brought to you because in order for it to become law,

13     it had to be signed by you, didn't it?  I mean, that's what item number 3

14     is all about.

15        A.   I just said that I formally signed.

16        Q.   Now, moving back to the constitution, L3, item number 4 of

17     Article 78.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Tab 382.

19        Q.   We know that you did carry out duties regarding relations of the

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina with other countries and international

21     organisations in accordance with the law.  And we don't need to go into

22     any real detail with that, Mr. Hadzic.  Because, for example, all of your

23     dealings, negotiations with internationals, such as Mr. Ahrens, would

24     have been pursuant to this provision; correct?

25        A.   Yes, yes, correct.  I think, to the best of my recollection, that

Page 10678

 1     was the main provision that I dealt with when I was president,

 2     representative role and talks with people from the international

 3     community and such affairs.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  And then if we could have, please, tab 542, P2046.

 5        Q.   You, in your capacity as president of the RSK, you would come

 6     back from these negotiations and you would brief members of the RSK

 7     government or its assembly on developments and the discussions that were

 8     taking place.  Isn't that true?

 9        A.   I was perhaps at 50 of those meetings, and two or three times

10     maybe at government sessions.  That happened a couple of times.  But if I

11     said yes to your questions, I would be lying.  Sometimes I did it, but

12     mostly not.

13        Q.   Now, I pulled up these minutes, Mr. Hadzic, because it goes to

14     something you said on your direct examination.  Your counsel asked you --

15     he said:

16             "You also said the most acceptable option is the one involving

17     special status.  Were those your words?"

18             And your testimony at transcript page 9719 was:

19             "Yes, those were my words.  We, and we in Slavonia, Baranja, were

20     prepared to discuss a special status but certain preconditions had to be

21     met, and it couldn't happen overnight."

22             And what we see in item 1 of the agenda here, Mr. Hadzic, is, in

23     fact, you address certain rumours that certain members of the government

24     were considering some kind of a so-called special status for the RSK, and

25     according to the minutes, you asked the following question on behalf of

Page 10679

 1     the RSK and requested an answer:

 2             "Are any of the members of the government in attendance in favour

 3     of a so-called special status for the RSK in Croatia, and if they are,

 4     they should immediately leave the session."

 5             So the fact is that you were opposed to special status, despite

 6     what you may have claimed in this courtroom, as well as to Mr. Ahrens in

 7     your discussions with him.  Isn't that true?

 8        A.   That's not right.  And you conflated two things.  The special

 9     status was discussed in 1991, when I was representative of SAO Slavonia

10     Baranja, et cetera, and that's how I discussed it.  And here I said that

11     no representative of Krajina can negotiate single-handedly without

12     consulting the others, and nobody had the right to discussion special

13     status without consulting the parliament and the assembly.

14        Q.   Or you.  True?

15        A.   And I.  But if I discussed it, I would first have to get approval

16     from the assembly, because it's the assembly that elected me.

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we have the -- there's a series of documents,

18     decrees, that you issued around the 22nd of January, 1993 following the

19     Croatia armed forces operation at Maslenica.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Maybe we don't need to go into the documents.  Can we agree that

22     you issued a declaration of a state of war throughout the territory of

23     the RSK on the 22nd of January, 1993?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have 65 ter 1458.  And this --


Page 10680

 1     maybe -- it may be necessary for private session.  This is a FBIS

 2     document that is -- I'm not sure that it's redacted yet.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.  And can we have a

 4     tab number, Mr. Stringer.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 10681

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   And here Mr. Dzuro is reading you the passage that I just

19     directed you to:

20             "The Croats had not a single civilian casualty because the

21     Republika Srpska army did not fire on civilian targets ..."

22             And then you go -- and then moving down a few lines, Mr. Dzuro

23     asks you:

24             "Can you tell how did you get this information -- where did you

25     get the information from the -- about the atrocities that the Croats


Page 10682

 1     committed there?"

 2             And you said:

 3             "I received it from the military intelligence service of my -- my

 4     military intelligence service of the Republic of Serb Krajina."

 5             Now when you just said a moment ago that you didn't have any

 6     special service that could verify that information, Mr. Hadzic, that

 7     wasn't true.  As president of the republic, you did have, in fact, at

 8     your disposal military intelligence service, or a military intelligence

 9     service, that kept you abreast of those sorts of developments.  Isn't

10     that true?

11        A.   I don't know how it was translated or what the understanding of

12     the language was.  I said that I received my information from military

13     officers.  I said clearly:  Military officers.  Mile Novkovic was the one

14     who contacted me, and he received that information from the intelligence

15     service, because I, as president of the republic, did not have a special

16     separate intelligence service that some presidents in modern democracies

17     have.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 701, P84.50.  I

19     apologise.  Actually, let me move back to one, tab 680.  Tab 680, P46.

20        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, while that's coming up, there have been a fair number

21     of discussions we've had about these District Councils; for example, the

22     District Council SBWS.  The one that Mr. Ilic was running in Eastern

23     Slavonia you said was operated independently.  I'm going to challenge you

24     on that.  I'm going to put to you that when you were the RSK government

25     saw that a district or a region council was acting contrary to policy,

Page 10683

 1     you had the power under the RSK constitution to deal with that, and what

 2     we see here in this document is your rather swiftly dealing with

 3     Mr. Dzakula and his regional councils having entered into that Daruvar

 4     agreement with the Croatian authorities.

 5             Do you remember this, when you disbanded Mr. Dzakula's regional

 6     council for Western Slavonia?

 7        A.   I remember that perfectly, but it was not quickly, as you say.

 8     The assembly discussed it.  And then the government debated it.  And then

 9     we received information that they had done something on their own

10     initiative and completely bypassing the policy adopted by their own

11     assembly.

12        Q.   And if we could zero in -- or I should say scroll in on the top

13     portion of the B/C/S version of the document, just to make it clear.

14     Actually, we need all the text across the top.  That's good.

15             Just to make it clear, Mr. Hadzic, because it's not so clear in

16     the translation, when you disbanded this regional council, you were doing

17     it pursuant to Article 78 of the RSK constitution.  Isn't that true?  You

18     were exercising your presidential powers in disbanding the regional

19     council.

20        A.   That's 28 April.  I'm not sure whether the state of the war was

21     still prevailing.  But it's in keeping with Article -- the article of the

22     constitution indicated here.

23        Q.   And I'm going to -- this -- the English -- well, it indicates

24     item 8.  Item 8 we haven't talked about it, but I'm going to move on it's

25     in the constitution.  We can always read it.  Item 8, regarding that the

Page 10684

 1     president may, on the government's proposal, when a part of the Republic

 2     of Serbian Krajina's territory, et cetera, are endangered he announces

 3     the state of emergency and adopts acts for taking necessary measures

 4     according to circumstances and according to the constitution and law.

 5             So you disbanded the Western Slavonia regional council pursuant

 6     to item 8 of Article 78, which then brings us to the last document for

 7     the day.  Tab 701, P84.50.

 8             Mr. Hadzic, this is - and I'm going to go quickly because we're

 9     running out of time today - an interview with Goran Hadzic in "Borba," a

10     Belgrade publication, 24/25 July 1993.  And I want to bring you back to

11     this, in part, based on what you said on the third page of the English.

12     That is R33.0576 is the ERN number.

13             And here you are referring to -- I should say, just slightly

14     below the halfway mark of the page, you were asked:  "You have broken

15     with some close associates.  Why?"

16             MR. STRINGER:  I don't know if we can blow up the text to make it

17     readable for you.

18             It may be, Mr. President - I think I've got a little bit of time

19     remaining on Monday - we're best just to leave this till then.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, this is it for the day, and for the

21     weekend, and so we will be back on Monday at 9.00, and you're still on

22     your oath, and you know what the consequences thereof are.

23             Court adjourned.

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 1st day of

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