1 Monday, 1 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- On resuming at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE HALL: Good morning to everyone.
7 Before I invite the Registrar to call the case, let the record
8 reflect that we reconvene this morning under Rule 15 bis, Judge Delvoie
9 being absent.
10 Yes, Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours.
12 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
14 May we have the appearances, please.
15 MR. STRINGER: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours.
16 For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Ms. Clanton; Case Manager,
17 Thomas Laugel; and legal intern, Moritz von Normann.
18 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
19 For the Defence.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
21 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.
22 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
23 Before I invite Mr. Stringer to resume his cross-examination, I
24 give Mr. Hadzic the usual reminder that you're still on your oath.
25 Yes, Mr. Stringer.
1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And before I begin, I
2 have just a couple of preliminary or housekeeping matters that I wish to
3 address with regard to Mr. Hadzic's cross-examination and its completion
4 today. The first of those is that over the course of the
5 cross-examination, there are some number of documents, probably five
6 maximum, that I failed to tender into evidence after having discussed it
7 with Mr. Hadzic. And rather than going back to those taking the time to
8 look at the record from before and to see what was said about them, the
9 request would be to seek the Chamber's leave to simply file a motion or
10 to tender them by way of a written motion. We could provide all the
11 record references to the Chamber and perhaps might be a more efficient
12 way of dealing with that. That was the first request I had and then I
13 also did want to tender --
14 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, before you move on to the second matter --
15 MR. STRINGER: Yes.
16 JUDGE HALL: -- I suppose what you have suggested would work, but
17 would an alternative be, if, for example, during a break you and the
18 Defence would get together and agree that the documents should be
19 tendered to save you the exercise of doing a written motion? I don't --
20 I don't except that answer now but something that you and Mr. Zivanovic
21 can consider.
22 MR. STRINGER: Certainly, Your Honour. I'm happy to raise it
23 with Mr. Zivanovic during the break and see whether we can reach some
24 resolution on that.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As to the first matter, I would say that we would
1 prefer the written motion.
2 JUDGE HALL: You don't want to think about it? You may after
3 discussion see that there is nothing to concern you. That's why I
4 suggested that alternative.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I -- I think that there are more than one
6 document and I'm afraid that we will not be able to see all it and to --
7 to -- think about all of it just during the break. But I'll try.
8 Anyway, I'll --
9 JUDGE HALL: I said during the break. I didn't mean during the
10 ordinary -- necessarily during the 30-minute break. I mean, for
11 instance, tomorrow.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's -- that's better option. Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL: Thanks.
14 MR. STRINGER: We could even draft the motion and provide it to
15 counsel, Your Honour, and then depending on how that goes either we will
16 file it or we'll present some sort of a resolution to the Chamber.
17 Your Honour, the next item was to actually tender into evidence
18 Exhibit 65 ter 6561 which is now given an MFI number. This was the one
19 that I tendered last week. Mr. Zivanovic pointed out that the Defence
20 had request from the Prosecution information about the chain of custody
21 and where had it come from. And that information was provided to
22 Mr. Zivanovic yesterday, and I don't know what the Defence's position on
23 that is, but we wish to tender that at this time now.
24 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just started to -- to write e-mail to
1 Mr. Stringer on his inquiry. I got it this morning. We'd like to
2 double-check, actually, whether this document was indeed provided from
3 the Serbian government or not. This -- the document, as far as I recall,
4 was not complete, and I'd like to -- to double-check it before I give my
6 JUDGE HALL: Fair enough.
7 MR. STRINGER: Third item, preliminarily, Your Honour, and I
8 don't know whether it would be necessary entirely, but I do wish to
9 respectfully request up to an additional 30 minutes to complete the
10 cross-examination this morning. There are a number of loose items that
11 I'd actually like to go back to -- to clarify with Mr. Hadzic as well as
12 a couple of ones that were always on my list. But, in any event, the
13 request is if the Chamber would consider allowing us an additional 30
14 minutes this morning, which I think I would make for a total of 70
15 instead of where we are now at 40.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HALL: Leave was prayed, Mr. Stringer.
18 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]
22 Q. Mr. Hadzic, just a couple of quick questions and I'm going to go
23 through a number of things that relate to matters that were already
24 mentioned during your cross-examination or otherwise. The first couple
25 of questions at page 9425 of the transcript, you were talking -- this was
1 in your direct examination, I believe. You were talking about the events
2 in Plitvice at the beginning of April, end of March 1991, when you were
3 arrested. And you indicated that at the time you were arrested they took
4 away your papers, some of your personal items, and that you subsequently
5 went back to Zagreb in order to try to get those items back from the
6 police. And you indicated that when you went back to the police in
7 Zagreb to get those things, you went with a friend of yours. And the
8 question is: Who is the person who accompanied you when you went back to
9 Zagreb for those things?
10 A. This is a friend of mine from school, otherwise from my village,
11 my generation, born the same year, his name is Marko Alavana.
12 Q. Another question I wanted to follow up on was -- this is at
13 page 10252 of the transcript on your cross-examination. You made
14 reference to your secretary and your driver. This is during the period
15 when you were president of RSK. The question here is: Who was your
16 secretary during that period of time?
17 A. There was lady from Knin. Her name was Nena Sain. That's still
18 her name. She is still alive.
19 Q. Was she -- did you have a secretary or an administrative
20 assistant during the SBWS phase in 1991 when you were at the government
21 offices in Erdut?
22 A. I did not have a secretary in Erdut at the government there.
23 There was just the secretary of the entire government, Mr. Pejakovic, but
24 he acted not as my secretary but as secretary of the entire government.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, one other item relates to
2 Exhibit 65 ter 1458, which I don't think we need to bring it up. We
3 had -- we had during the hearing -- it's a confidential FBIS document and
4 what we've done now is to actually redact it. It was dealt with in the
5 hearing as a confidential document in private session, and so we have now
6 made a redacted version and we would now re-tender or we would tender
7 65 ter 1458 into evidence as redacted.
8 JUDGE HALL: Does the Defence have any objection?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We just like to see this document because I
10 cannot --
11 MR. STRINGER: We can -- if the Registrar could bring it up then.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No objection. Sorry. No objection, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HALL: Did I understand you, Mr. Stringer, to say
14 re-tender? Do I understand you refer to the 65 ter number was it ever
16 MR. STRINGER: No. In fact, I did not tender it at the time,
17 Your Honour. And so when I just said re- tender, I misspoke. It wasn't
18 tendered. It was dealt with in the hearing confidentially and we are
19 tendering it now as redacted.
20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3234, Your Honours.
22 MR. STRINGER: And just for completeness, Your Honour, the
23 Prosecution can inform the Chamber of the corresponding pages of the
24 transcript that were in private session and if it is minded to then could
25 make those pages now public as well since the document is public as
2 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So ordered.
3 MR. STRINGER:
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, just one other -- actually, not the last
5 clarification. But one clarification regarding when you had your first
6 meeting with Slobodan Milosevic. And because in your direct examination,
7 this was on the 4th of July, at page 9387, your counsel, Mr. Zivanovic,
8 asked you about having -- when did you meet Mr. Milosevic. And you
9 mentioned that you saw Slobodan Milosevic at a short meeting with the
10 delegation of members of the Serbian Democratic Party from all of
11 Croatia, and that was after the TV show about the arming of Croats, the
12 Spiegel movie. And you went on to say that this could have been a month
13 before Plitvice, perhaps a bit more than that; is that correct? Is that
14 your best recollection of your first time to meet Slobodan Milosevic?
15 A. Well, I think it was the end of February 1991 but I didn't talk
16 to him then.
17 Q. And the reason I ask it is because then a few days later, on the
18 10th of July, it came up again during your direct examination, and this
19 is what you said. Again on when did you meet Slobodan Milosevic, you
21 "I've already mentioned that before that I had one contact.
22 Perhaps in the month of September 1991 when Professor Raskovic called me
23 from Knin to be on this delegation of the Serb Democratic Party."
24 And I don't know whether you misspoke there or whether this is
25 what you intended to say or what was interpreted, but this is in the
1 record. Now it says September 1991 and I wanted to clarify that, in
2 fact, it was earlier as you've just indicated, in February or so?
3 A. Yes. Raskovic invited us. That was the end of February 1991.
4 And the first time I spoke to him in my life was in September but that
5 was over the telephone.
6 Q. And that was the conversation you describe that was related to
7 the negotiations in Borovo Selo with Mr. Wijnaendts?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. The next item, Mr. Hadzic, if we could bring up, please,
10 Exhibit 65 ter 4869.4.
11 Now, Mr. Hadzic, this is a still photograph that comes from the
12 video that we looked at just, I think, on Thursday of last week; the
13 video being P244. Do you remember us looking at this?
14 A. I remember.
15 Q. And there was a little bit of discussion or confusion about the
16 name of this gentleman, and I wanted to try to clarify this a little bit.
17 We're looking here at the television broadcast with the Cyrillic
18 script. Can you just read what the Cyrillic script says in the photo
19 that we're looking at.
20 A. I can read it. I would have made a mistake once again. Again,
21 it's a question of perception, as they say. So this is what it says
22 precisely: Zeljko Filipsic. It is a very unusual surname, so you assume
23 that it is the more usual form that we know. So it is Zeljko Filipsic
24 from Bilje.
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. STRINGER: And this is more sort of a record clarification,
2 if I may, Mr. President. I'm looking at page 10671. Because during the
3 course of our discussion on -- on this video, Mr. Hadzic, the name
4 Filipovic worked its way into the transcript, and actually it's indicated
5 there that I was suggesting to you that this is someone named Filipovic.
6 And if I said that, I misspoke, because I was intending to suggest that
7 it was someone named Filipcic.
8 So can we agree that in fact at least according to what we see on
9 the image here the name attributed to this person is Filipcic?
10 A. As I've already said, what is written here is Zeljko Filipsic.
11 So I agree it is not Filipovic.
12 Q. The next item, Mr. Hadzic, again, this relates just to the
13 cross-examination --
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see in the line 9 -- in the -- at the page 9
16 line 1, again, the error in -- in the last name of the witness. It is
17 stated "Filipcic" instead "Filipsic."
18 MR. STRINGER:
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, perhaps -- could you -- well, first of all, do you
20 know the gentleman whose image we see in this photograph?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you just spell the name as it appears on the image. Just
23 give us the letters.
24 A. In Serbian you mean, in my language?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. F-i-l-i-p-s, with a diacritic which is sh, i-c with a diacritic
2 ch. Maybe it would be easier for the interpreters if I would do it in
3 the Latin script rather than Cyrillic?
4 Q. Please.
5 A. F-i-l-i-p-s, with a diacritic, i-ch which is c with a diacritic.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STRINGER: And before I forget, Mr. President, Your Honour,
8 we would tender this into evidence, this 65 ter 4869.4.
9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3235, Your Honours.
11 MR. STRINGER:
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, last week on Thursday we were discussing two of the
13 incidents that are referred to in the indictment. The first of which
14 related to the disappearance of people from the Dalj Planina region, the
15 Hungarian people, the names Pap came up during the course of that, and I
16 actually want to clarify or correct a mistake that I made that I think
17 was confusing to you because I didn't put it to you correctly, and so I
18 want to correct my mistake and ask you to comment on it. We were
19 referring also to your suspect interview that you gave to Mr. Dzuro back
20 in 2002, and at that time, you had told him that in regard to Hungarian
21 people living in that area, the Dalj Planina area, you knew someone whose
22 nickname was Sabonija; correct?
23 A. You mispronounced it. The nickname is Sobonja.
24 Q. Thank you. And in my cross-examination, I was suggesting that he
25 was a member of the Pap family and you were disagreeing with me. And
1 just to make it correct, this gentleman, Sobonja, was, I believe you
2 said, the brother or he was related to someone -- a person who actually
3 testified in this trial.
4 And if we could briefly go into private session, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 10697 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think I indicated -- I already indicated that
2 at this point --
3 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zivanovic, just a moment, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, please continue.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that I already indicated that this part
8 of interview was given when Mr. Hadzic was provided with Milosevic
9 indictment and all his answers follows from the -- from Milosevic
10 indictment. I said that I will clarify it during my re-direct. We
11 discussed it, as far as I recall, two or three days ago or something like
13 JUDGE HALL: So do I understand your position to be that you have
14 no difficulty with the proposal, well, the application, to tender the
15 written document for the sake of tidiness, if nothing else? And as
16 Mr. Stringer has said, it is intended solely for impeachment purposes as
17 a previous inconsistent statement.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, may I see again this portion of --
20 of the exhibit before I take the position.
21 MR. STRINGER: 65 --
22 JUDGE HALL: I was going to suggest that perhaps we could defer
23 this application until after the break. Perhaps Mr. Zivanovic could look
24 at it during the break and we could return to it then.
25 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour. That's fine. We're talking
1 about two incidents here, one is referred to in paragraph 27 of the
2 indictment. The other one relates to the Klisa, the people who came from
3 Klisa, and that's in paragraph -- that's the incident at paragraph 29.
4 Just -- just so Your Honour knows, in the paragraph 27 incident,
5 Mr. Dzuro was not referring to the Milosevic indictment. He was actually
6 reading Mr. Hadzic part of a witness statement. It was only in regard to
7 the paragraph 29 Klisa incident in which Mr. Dzuro read or had Mr. Hadzic
8 read part of the Milosevic indictment. And he also read a different
9 witness statement.
10 And so it's a little bit complicated. But, in any event, we'll
11 provide this to counsel. We'll confer and perhaps we can reach an
13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, in your direct examination on the 14th of July, you
14 were asked about Ilok, and your counsel asked:
15 "Did you or the government enter Ilok or go to Ilok after the
16 Croats had moved out? Did you establish any organs of SBWS there at the
17 time in this territory?"
18 And your answer was:
19 "No, we didn't establish any organs of power or authorities. We
20 did not have physical access at the time. We couldn't reach it. There
21 was military administration in Ilok. It was completely sealed off."
22 Do you recall that testimony?
23 A. I remember when Croatians left, the military took over and
24 occupied everything.
25 Q. And then on page 9726 again your counsel asked:
1 "Were you in Ilok or in the rounding area when the Croats were
2 moved out of Ilok?"
3 And you said:
4 "No, I wasn't either in Ilok or in the surrounding area and I did
5 not have any information about this, any direct information, except for
6 what I learned from the media."
7 Do you remember that?
8 A. I remember that.
9 MR. STRINGER: Now, if we could please have tab -- from tab 1087.
10 This is 65 ter 4974.06.
11 Q. You were asked about Ilok and whether you went there by
12 Mr. Dzuro, Mr. Hadzic, and I want to show you the answer you gave at that
14 MR. STRINGER: If we could go to page 51 of this.
15 Q. Mr. Dzuro asked --
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Excuse me. May we see B/C/S text, please, at the
18 MR. STRINGER: I'll give that page number just as soon as I've
19 got it, Your Honour. I don't have it at the ready.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. STRINGER: The B/C/S of this is in e-court, this document.
22 It should be available.
23 Perhaps we can try this. If we could try 4974.06C, the letter C.
24 It's a shortened version. It might have the redaction on it that the
25 Chamber indicated it wished to avoid, but it might at least move things
1 along quickly, more -- more quickly. Looks like we're there.
2 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'm looking obviously at the English, and about
3 two-thirds of the way down the page Mr. Dzuro asks:
4 "Back to Ilok. Did you -- did you go to Ilok after it was taken
5 over by the JNA?"
6 And your answer was:
7 "I said that I passed through Ilok. So, I did go?"
8 Vladimir Dzuro then asks:
9 "Did you go to Ilok right after the Croats left on the
10 17th of October, 1991?"
11 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Stringer, please continue. I'm having a
12 little technical problem here but that shouldn't interfere with you're
14 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, so Mr. Dzuro then asks:
16 "Did you go to Ilok right after the Croats left on the 17th of
17 October, 1991?"
18 And again your answer:
19 "I don't remember having gone there immediately afterwards,
20 meaning within a period of two or three days, but maybe in a week or ten
22 "I remember having met with Colonel Grahovac, who was the
23 commander there. But it was just a courteous conversation, because Ilok
24 was under military administration."
25 MR. STRINGER: And then we can go to the next page so that every
1 can see that's pretty much the end of your answer on Ilok. But if we
2 could take a quick look at page 52?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Stringer, it's a one-page document.
4 MR. STRINGER: Oh. Okay.
5 Q. So, Mr. Hadzic, actually despite what you indicated in your
6 direct examination, you did, as you told Mr. Dzuro, go and have the
7 ability to go down to Ilok within a week to ten days after the Croat
8 population left there in mid-October. Isn't that true?
9 A. That's not correct, Mr. Prosecutor. You made a mistake. And you
10 can see that in the terminologic discussion that I had Dzuro. I said
11 that I passed through Ilok, and according to that logic your -- the
12 answer to your question would be yes because I passed through Ilok, but I
13 couldn't pass through Ilok before 20th of October when Vukovar was
14 liberated. When I went from Pacetin to Vukovar, it was only then that I
15 could pass through Ilok. And I said that I could -- didn't do it within
16 a short space of time. It must have been later. It must have been
17 perhaps within 15 or 20 days.
18 I did not finish. So it could be 15 or 20 days later but
19 obviously it must have been more than a month. I happened to meet
20 Colonel Grahovac by chance and we spent about a couple of minutes talking
21 in the street.
22 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this
23 excerpt from the suspect interview, 4974.06C.
24 JUDGE HALL: If I may have a moment, please.
25 Yes, Mr. Stringer. Please continue.
1 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, just a moment ago I was going to
2 tender this excerpt into evidence, but I'm not going to do that actually.
3 I've read the relevant passages from the suspect interview into the
4 record and put those to Mr. Hadzic, and so I think that the record is
5 sufficient on that issue.
6 JUDGE HALL: Please continue.
7 MR. STRINGER:
8 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can we agree that back in 2002 you told Mr. Dzuro
9 that, in fact, it was seven to ten days, a week to ten days after the
10 Croats left Ilok that you went down there?
11 A. I didn't say that. Mr. Dzuro asked me whether I had arrived in
12 Ilok immediately after Croats left it. I said no. I said I certainly
13 didn't do it within a couple of days. I told him that it was later and I
14 can see now that I gave him a period of time that is certainly shorter
15 than it -- it actually was.
16 Q. Well, just to make sure we're all able to know what it was you
17 said to Mr. Dzuro, Mr. Hadzic, let's just play the corresponding video
18 from the suspect interview for this part.
19 MR. STRINGER: And for the interpreters, this is 4974.06C, as in
20 Charlie. We'll wait to -- for them to let us know when they're ready.
21 THE INTERPRETER: We are ready.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 "Vladimir Dzuro: Back to -- back to Ilok. Did you -- did you go
24 to Ilok after it was taken over by the JNA?
25 "Goran Hadzic: So I did not --
1 "Vladimir Dzuro: Did you go to Ilok right after the Croats left
2 on the 17th of October, 1991?
3 "Goran Hadzic: I don't remember having gone there immediately
4 afterwards, meaning within a period of two or three days, but maybe in a
5 week or ten days.
6 "I remember having met with Colonel Grahovac, who was the
7 commander there. But it was just a courteous conversation because Ilok
8 was under military administration."
9 MR. STRINGER:
10 Q. So, Mr. Hadzic, now having seen that, does that remind you of
11 what you said to Mr. Dzuro? You went down there seven to ten days after
12 the 17th of October, 1991?
13 A. I heard seven to ten days in the interpretation. I don't know
14 whether you are doing this on purpose or you just didn't hear me saying
15 on the video that I went there within ten to 15 days.
16 Q. Well, I hate to spend more time on this, but perhaps this time we
17 could re-play the video, and if it's possible for the interpreters to
18 take Mr. Hadzic's question on the video and to indicate whether the
19 interpretation given in the interview by that interpreter is -- is
20 correct or not because, clearly, we've got a week to seven days in --
21 in -- in our interpretation.
22 JUDGE HALL: So could we have the video re-played, please, with
23 the interpretations Mr. Stringer has suggested.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 "Vladimir Dzuro: Back to -- back to Ilok. Did you -- did you go
1 to Ilok after it was taken offer by the JNA?
2 "Goran Hadzic: I said that I did pass through Ilok. I did go.
3 "Vladimir Dzuro: Did you go to Ilok right after the Croats left
4 on the 17th of October, 1991?
5 "Goran Hadzic: I don't remember that I went immediately after
6 that. I believe that I went after 10 to 15 days. Within a period of two
7 or three days but maybe in a week or ten days.
8 "I remember that I met with Colonel Grahovac" --
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, it was an error in interpretation of
10 interpreter who was present to the meeting, because Mr. Hadzic did not
11 mention week. He said ten to 15 days.
12 MR. STRINGER: And that I believe's what the interpreters gave us
13 Your Honour, and so we will take that as the answer.
14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you were in Ilok by early November then 1991? You
15 had the ability to go to Ilok by early November, ten to 15 days after the
16 17th of October?
17 A. This is not correct. I have already answered that question.
18 Mr. Dzuro asked me and I answered from the top of my head without really
19 thinking. I did not have anything to hide, but I said it clearly now
20 that I answered Mr. Dzuro that I passed through Ilok. I couldn't do that
21 before the 20th of October. I couldn't pass through Ilok because there
22 was fighting going on for Vukovar. When I said after ten to 15 days, I
23 should have said after a month. That was my mistake.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, again, it's page 21, line 4 -- line 3,
25 sorry, Mr. Hadzic mentioned November, not October.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Hadzic, could you repeat your answer to
2 Mr. Stringer's question, please, if you remember it.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember.
4 And now I'm going to repeat for the third time. In the interview
5 I could not define the time very precisely. This is my problem. I could
6 not pass through Ilok before the 20th of November when the passage
7 through Vukovar became free because you have to go through Vukovar, Ilok,
8 Backa Palanka, and then to Novi Sad. I could not pass through Ilok
9 before the 20th of November. When Dzuro put that question to me, I
10 provided a hasty answer. I did not know that he was implying a -- that
11 there was a meeting of some sort there, so my answer to Mr. Dzuro's
12 question was not really precise.
13 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have P61.50, tab 111.
14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is an item again that -- I'm going back to your
15 direct examination. This is a form that you testified about on your
16 direct examination, the form that was submitted in Vukovar on the
17 formation of the Serbian Democratic Party in August of 1990. Do you
18 remember seeing this form on your direct?
19 A. I remember that.
20 Q. And in your direct examination, it was -- you observed that
21 although the date of the signature there in August of 1990 is actually
22 after the date of the form, the printed form from June of 1990, and we
23 weren't clear whether you were suggesting that there was some problem in
24 terms of the authenticity of this document. Are you challenging the
25 authenticity of this document?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, it is not the date of the form. It is the
2 header of Official Gazette of Croatia at the very top of this page.
3 MR. STRINGER: Well, the heard it says 25 June 1990; is that
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Correct.
6 MR. STRINGER:
7 Q. And on your direct examination, Mr. Hadzic, you observed that the
8 Gazette was from June of 1990, although it had your -- the form in it
9 from August and we weren't sure whether you were somehow contesting this
10 form or its authenticity. So that is my question now: Do you challenge
11 this form? Is there something irregular about it, in your view?
12 A. To my best recollection, as the president of the Municipal Board,
13 it was my duty to register in the state where I was that was Croatia
14 within SFRY. I did it in the municipality of Vukovar, and now I really
15 can't tell you why there is a problem with the date, why this was done in
16 this way. In any case, this is my signature. I'm not denying that.
17 MR. STRINGER: Well, let's just take a moment and go to tab 1686
18 which is 65 ter 6553. I'm going suggest to you what happened here.
19 And, Your Honour, what we're seeing in the English is - when it
20 comes up -- is we're seeing the English translation of a blank form with
21 25 June 1990 in the header. And if we could go to the last page of this
22 Gazette in the B/C/S version.
23 Q. So, Mr. Hadzic, are we seeing -- are -- I know perhaps you don't
24 want to say whether the B/C/S corresponds to the English that we're
25 seeing on the screen, but let me just put it to you that what happened is
1 that the forms for various registrations were published in the Gazette in
2 June of 1990, the blank forms, and that what you then did was to take the
3 blank form from June of 1990 when it was published and then simply to
4 fill it out and submit it, then, in August of 1990, and that's why we
5 have your signature.
6 Isn't that how it worked back in those days?
7 A. I can't say yes or no to that question. I told you that the
8 signature was mine, and, as for the rest, I really don't know what to
10 Q. In your cross-examination, Mr. Hadzic, we were looking at a
11 document at tab 561, 65 ter 1278. This was an article from "Politika,"
12 page 2 of the English. This is the article, Mr. Hadzic, called: We are
13 in favour of peace and agreement. This related to your trip to
14 Beli Manastir on the 25th of September, 1992. Do you remember discussing
15 this document with me? I was asking you about Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic at
16 the time.
17 A. I remember that we mentioned Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic on several
18 occasions; however, you would have to show me this document to jog my
19 memory. Actually, I am looking at it, but the letters are too small.
20 Can it be zoomed in a little?
21 Q. Let me see if I can refresh your recollection. What I was asking
22 you about were comments on your position on whether the Belgian Battalion
23 of UN peacekeepers should be withdrawn from Beli Manastir. At page 10259
24 at your evidence on cross, you said --
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would propose that Mr. Hadzic be
1 provided with this text to see that before he give any answer to this
3 MR. STRINGER: We can go to the very end of the article entitled:
4 We are in favour of peace and agreement. It's the very last part of it.
5 It's referring to:
6 "In Zivanovic's opinion even in those critical days when the
7 return of the refugees ... was announced, the Belgians did not succeed in
8 hiding their favour for the Croatian side."
9 It continues. And then it says:
10 "'We demand and we shall do it officially through our RSK
11 government that the UN forces in Baranja pertaining to the
12 Belgian-Luxembourg Battalion be withdrawn from Baranja,' said Zivanovic."
13 "Hadzic agreed with that statement and promised that the
14 government was going to officially forward the request to the competent
16 Q. And, Mr. Hadzic, on page 10259 of your cross-examination, I asked
17 you about that. I suggested that you were with -- you were in agreement
18 with Mr. Zivanovic on this issue of the UNPROFOR. And you said:
19 "No, this was the journalist's comment. I said that I would pass
20 it on to the government as far as my authority went, to send a protest
21 because of the Belgian Battalion's conduct, but I did not want the
22 Belgian Battalion to withdraw nor was that under my jurisdiction."
23 Do you remember that was your answer.
24 A. Yes, I remember. That's what happened, yes, and that's what I
1 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1715, Exhibit 4890.1.
2 It's a very short video-clip.
3 And we'll wait for the interpreters.
4 THE INTERPRETER: We haven't got the 65 ter number.
5 MR. STRINGER: It's 4890.1.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you. We've got it.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The president of the Republic of
9 Serbian Krajina, Goran Hadzic stated yesterday that he will request from
10 UNPROFOR to pull out the Belgian-Luxembourg Battalion from Baranja
11 because of, as he said, the battalion's improper conduct. In connection
12 with that, the state committee for co-operation with UNPROFOR said that
13 they are familiar with the complaints of the representatives of the
14 Republic of Serbian Krajina about the conduct of the
15 Belgian-Luxembourg Battalion. Relevant factors are still not able to say
16 anything concrete about the resolution of this issue."
17 MR. STRINGER: Could we now have tab 1714, please, 65 ter 4818.2.
18 THE INTERPRETER: We've found it.
19 MR. STRINGER: Let's try it again. I don't think we're getting
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We will never accept this
23 blackmail. According to the Belgian daily "Soir," this is the reaction
24 of the Belgian government to the demand of the president of the
25 Serbian Republic of Krajina, Goran Hadzic, for the immediate withdrawal
1 of Belgian Blue Helmets from Baranja to replace them with soldiers from
2 another country. Belgium, it is stressed, has no intention of forsaking
3 its obligations to the United Nations and dismisses the claim of the
4 Serbian leader that members of its detachment are biased."
5 MR. STRINGER:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, despite what you said on the cross-examination
7 in response to my question on this, you did, in fact, yourself want the
8 Belgian Battalion to withdraw, and you did, indeed, believe it was under
9 your jurisdiction since you were advocating that publicly. Isn't that
11 A. Well, it's not true. This was this comment regarding the meeting
12 in Baranja and Borivoje Zivanovic's statement and now these are
13 journalists' comments and my picture was shown. I don't remember that I
14 wrote or explicitly asked for that because the commentary that we heard
15 before this one, it says that the representatives of the Krajina
16 government had asked for this, not the president. They asked for the
17 replacement of or whatever, reexamining the influence of the
18 Belgian Battalion. The problem was that they had heavy weaponry on their
19 vehicles, the Belgians, and they would point them at civilians when they
20 were patrolling villages. This caused nervousness among people, among
21 women and children, and they were not actually guarding the border.
22 That's how the problem escalated.
23 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender first
24 the newspaper article, 65 ter 1278, as well as these two video-clips that
25 we've just seen, 4818.1 -- sorry. 4890.1 and 4818.2.
1 JUDGE HALL: Any objection from the Defence?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No objection, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 01278 will be
5 Exhibit P3236.
6 65 ter number 04890.1 will be Exhibit P3237.
7 And 65 ter number 04818.2 will be Exhibit P3238.
8 MR. STRINGER:
9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, a couple of times, actually, during your evidence and
10 also in your own statement that you gave to the Trial Chamber at the
11 beginning, you discussed your flight, the fact that you didn't come to
12 the Tribunal when you were indicted. And I know that you've described
13 that and given your reasons for that in private session for the Chamber,
14 so I'm not going to go into the reasoning that you gave, but I do want to
15 ask you a couple of questions about your flight and the fact that you
16 were a fugitive from the time you were indicted in 2004.
17 And I'm going to put it to you that despite what you said it was
18 never your intention to come voluntarily to the Tribunal, and it starts,
19 actually, back when you testified as a Defence witness in the Dokmanovic
20 case back in 1998. And this is 65 ter 2320, page 3118 of the Dokmanovic
22 And it was put to you on cross-examination by the Prosecutor in
23 that case at the top of the page here. He said:
24 "Now, on the evening of the 27th of June, 1997, after you found
25 out about Mr. Dokmanovic's arrest, you fled from eastern Slavonia in a
1 boat across the Danube into Serb, didn't you? "
2 And you denied it.
3 And you went on to say that you crossed Erdut and went to
4 Novi Sad. You were with your son. You denied fleeing. And, again, on
5 line 13 the Prosecutor put to you:
6 "Isn't it a fact that you left on the same day of
7 Mr. Dokmanovic's arrest; correct?
8 And you said:
9 "That is a fact which had nothing do with it. It can have
10 something to do with it and need not have."
11 But on this issue of flight, Mr. Hadzic, isn't it so that even as
12 early as 1997 when other accused linked to these events were arrested, it
13 was then that you left Croatia immediately and moved yourself to Serbia,
14 isn't that true, in order to avoid being arrested and being brought to
15 the Tribunal?
16 A. Well, that is not correct. I wouldn't want to defend this Court
17 from you now, but how could they have arrested me because I was not
18 indicted? So how do you get it the other way around? How can somebody
19 be arrested first and then have a indictment issued? Going to Novi Sad
20 and Croatia, these are completely different connotations. I didn't want
21 to integrate into Croatia. I didn't want my children to go to a Croatian
22 school, and I left Croatia just like many of my friends and co-workers
23 did. However, at the time of the arrest of Dokmanovic, this culminated
24 this reintegration and this was sort of a cross on the T, that this
25 peaceful reintegration should be completed and that I should leave the
1 area. I did leave the area, as I said then, in my car. I sat in the
2 back. My son, Srecko, sat next to me. At that time he was about ten
3 years old. He was nine years old, actually.
4 Q. Mr. Dokmanovic was arrested on a secret indictment, and you
5 didn't know if there was a secret indictment out for you as well. True?
6 A. Well, it could be partly true, but it is not true. I'm sorry, I
7 repeated the Croatian word because the interpreter was speaking Croatian
8 to me. There were some indictments against me from Croatia. They had
9 been withdrawn in the meantime. But at that time, I didn't know and that
10 was a difficult situation. With Croatia I have been accused of things
11 that I did not even know about. I didn't even know what had happened.
12 So I have been pardoned for most things in Croatia. The things that I
13 stand accused of here are things that I do not stand accused of in
14 Croatia because they know who is to be blamed for what.
15 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1619,
16 Exhibit 65 ter 6546.
17 Q. And as that is coming up, Mr. Hadzic, we're going to move forward
18 now to the 13th July, 2004. You were in Novi Sad. And on the day that
19 the sealed indictment in your case here at the ICTY, when it was
20 forwarded to the authorities in Serbia, that's, in fact, when you got in
21 your car, fled, and went into hiding for the next seven years.
22 If we go to the next page, we can see a photograph, I believe.
23 And then the next image on the next page.
24 That's you, isn't it, standing out in the front of your house on
25 the day that you got in that car and fled?
1 A. I did not take that photograph. I don't know who took the
2 photograph. And I don't know which day this is. There's no way I can
3 tell that it was that day. Maybe you are right, but I really don't know
4 who took this.
5 Q. You did get information that you had been indicted by the ICTY
6 and that's when you loaded the car and fled; correct?
7 A. I received quite a bit of this information which mostly was not
8 correct. This was probably the 30th piece of information of this kind
9 that proved to be correct. It was sort of semi-information.
10 Q. And that's when you fled and went into hiding; correct?
11 A. Well, now you're asking me to confirm something that is not in
12 dispute. Everybody knows that I had fled and was a fugitive for seven
13 years. And, as for this photograph --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
15 end of the sentence.
16 MR. STRINGER:
17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, they -- interpreters did not get the end of your last
18 answer. You were going to say something about the photograph.
19 A. Well, I'm saying I don't know when the photograph was taken. I
20 had the feeling, based on your question, that you were saying that this
21 photograph was taken on the day when I fled. I don't know about that.
22 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1579,
23 Exhibit 65 ter 6505.
24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is an internal memorandum that was written by
25 Mr. Dzuro and it relates, in part, to his contact with you when he was
1 organising -- or in contact with you about the suspect interview and
2 making arrangements for that to happen back in 2002. And we see here
3 under the 16th of January, 2002, he said, he wrote that:
4 "At 1100 hours, Dzuro called Goran Hadzic on his office phone at
5 the Nis oil company in Novi Sad. After initial explanation, Goran Hadzic
6 agreed on a meeting on Sunday, 20 January 2002, at 1100 hours at the
7 Park Hotel in Novi Sad."
8 Do you remember Mr. Dzuro contacting you - I know it was a long
9 time ago - about trying to organise this suspect interview, or meeting?
10 A. I did speak to him, but I don't know what the date was.
11 Q. And then if we go to the next page of the English, he then refers
12 to the meeting taking place on the 20th of January. He says:
13 "At 1100 hours, Dzuro and someone met Goran Hadzic in Hotel Park
14 in Novi Sad. The meeting went" --
15 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, counsel has an intervention so I'll
16 stop reading it.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Excuse me, may we see this document unredacted?
18 MR. STRINGER: The unredacted parts relate to other things that
19 Mr. Dzuro was doing in connection with other investigations in other
20 cases. We could provide it to counsel. We can provide it, I believe.
21 I'd like to take a look at it. But it's redacted the parts that relate
22 to other things, not Mr. Hadzic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't understand why not to Mr. Hadzic. But I
24 agree if the Prosecution provide it to me.
25 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, if I can continue my cross on this,
1 we can provide an unredacted version to counsel. It's an internal
2 memorandum. It relates to a lot of things Mr. Dzuro was doing. We could
3 provide it to him during the break, but I would like to conclude my
4 inquiry on this point now and also like to conclude my cross-examination
5 before the break.
6 JUDGE HALL: Yeah. Mr. Zivanovic, is that acceptable?
7 Mr. Stringer continues and you could look at it during the break and see
8 whether you have been handicapped by not having seen it beforehand?
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. That's acceptable for me.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. STRINGER:
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, Dzuro writes:
13 "The meeting went in relatively friendly mood but the lobby of
14 the hotel was secured by some 10 to 15 body-guards. Hadzic informed
15 Dzuro that he was armed with a pistol and that he would not hesitate to
16 use the weapon in case somebody attempted to arrest him. Hadzic greed to
17 be interviewed as a suspect and the interview was set for the
18 1st of March, 2002, at 1000 hours in Novi Sad."
19 So, Mr. Hadzic, despite what you've said in this trial or what
20 you've indicated, the fact is that you've never, ever intended
21 voluntarily to come to the Tribunal. And, in fact, here you've indicated
22 you would use force not to come. Isn't that so?
23 A. That's not correct. He was a decent gentleman. This never
24 crossed my mind, the possibility of an arrest. I have to give a comment
25 because the distinguished Trial Chamber may get the wrong impression.
1 This hotel, Park, is one of the biggest hotels in Novi Sad and the owner
2 is a person who is deceased today, Ratko Butorovic, not called
3 Bata Kankan, a controversial businessman as they say in Serbia. I don't
4 know why, but he had lots of security people, body-guards. They were
5 sitting there and they also followed him in three cars wherever he went,
6 so they sat there. I just came with my driver, whereas all of these
7 other people were people I did not even know. They were his body-guards.
8 Q. You informed Mr. Dzuro that you were armed with a pistol and that
9 you would not hesitate to use it in case someone attempted to arrest you?
10 A. I don't think I said that. I'm not really that thick.
11 Dokmanovic was arrested by about 30 soldiers. That is what I heard.
12 Although Dokmanovic was not that dangerous. I was that literate from a
13 league and political point of view to know that some foreign policemen
14 could not arrest me in Novi Sad. That is not serious. How can that be
15 recorded there? It was only the police of Serbia that could have
16 arrested me in Serbia. That would have to be clear to me. Dokmanovic
17 was arrested in an UN protected area so it was the UN forces that
18 arrested him. If it weren't sad, I'd find it funny. Well, I did carry a
19 pistol around all the time, that's no secret and that's not in dispute,
20 for my personal protection and I had a proper permit for this pistol. I
21 never used it though, and I never even threatened anybody with it.
22 Q. You told Mr. Dzuro that you had the pistol with you. True?
23 A. I did not. Why would I do that? I'm not crazy. Mr. Dzuro is a
24 decent man, very well mannered. He did not say a single word that was
25 bad. He was a very decent gentleman, apologised every time he would say
1 something that might sound wrong. I mean, I would not threaten him with
2 a pistol. On the contrary, I would protect him if anybody threatened
3 him. He was in my town. I would be prepared to protect him in my town
4 with his own -- with my own body. I was his host and that is sacred in
5 our part of the world. If somebody were to attack me guest, that would
6 be worse than attacking me or killing me. This is really not true. What
7 you said, whether I would surrender or no, I said that in closed session
8 and if you're interested in that, I can tell you what I think about that
9 in closed session, if we move into closed session.
10 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, that completes my cross-examination.
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Stringer.
12 Mr. Zivanovic -- yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would start my re-direct after
14 the break.
15 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I was going to suggest that, although we're a
16 few minutes short -- shy of the usual time, we take the break now and
17 resume at 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
20 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, are you ready?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, before we start, I would address
22 the -- the proposal of the Prosecution as to document 4974.08. In
23 e-court, this document has 24 pages, and we are provided with a document
24 with seven pages. So we would see that and see -- see -- seeing this
25 documents after -- after the -- today's sitting, and the rest we
1 will answer to tomorrow.
2 JUDGE HALL: Very well.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I will start by reminding you of some questions that were put to
7 you by the Prosecutor on the first day of his examination, on the
8 17th of July. I'm going to read just one part -- or, rather, an
9 assertion of his that was a part of his question on pages 9942 and 9943.
10 The question was:
11 [In English] "The fact is, Mr. Hadzic, that a peaceful
12 reintegration of the SBWS, the Eastern Slavonia region that we heard
13 about through the trial, that, in fact, could have been achieved for
14 Western Slavonia and the Knin Krajina as well, if you, as the leader of
15 the Serb people in Croatia, the political leader, had advocated something
16 other than separation of the people and in order to achieve a Serbian
17 state on the territory of Croatia. Isn't that true? A peaceful
18 reintegration could have been achieved at any point along the way through
19 your tenure as the leader if you had wanted that to happen. It's just
20 that you didn't want it to happen."
21 [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to ask you or,
22 rather, I would like to clarify certain things. You provided your
23 answers already. The Prosecutor, as you can see, claimed that the
24 peaceful reintegration was what you wanted as a leader. Please tell us
25 whether that's correct or not.
1 A. This is not correct. As a matter fact, this is 100 per cent
2 wrong. It was not up to me to have a say in that, at all. It's a
3 thousand per mille incorrect.
4 Q. Could you please tell us what was the sentiment among the Serbs
5 in the Knin Krajina at the time? Do you know if there was a belief among
6 them or a conviction that they could still remain living there if the
7 Republic of Serbian Krajina did not exist?
8 A. We just said something about 1992, whereas, the
9 Republic of Serbian Krajina emerged only later. When I started
10 co-operating with them, it was at the beginning of 1992. However, in the
11 course of 1991, the sentiment was that they couldn't exist in Croatia the
12 way Croatia proposed it and that their safety would be jeopardised. This
13 is at least what I knew about the work of the Serbian Democratic Party.
14 I knew that that was their position. They were not very convinced about
15 good intentions of the bodies of Republic of Croatia, and that's why they
16 erect the barricades, due to that fear. It's a well-known fact.
17 Q. My question may have been too broad. I'm not interested
18 specifically in 1991 or 1992. I'm talking about the entire duration of
19 your term of office as the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina
20 in 1992 and 1993. I am interested in the sentiment of the Serbian
21 population at that time, of the population in the Republic of
22 Serbian Krajina. Was there any concern among them about their survival
23 there if the bodies of the Republic of Serbian Krajina stopped existing?
24 A. Yeah, there were dilemmas to that effect. They did not trust
25 Croatia, and if the Serbian bodies of government had not existed there,
1 the people would not have stayed.
2 Q. Again, let's go back to 1992 and 1993. According to what you
3 learned and based on your experience and contacts that you had with the
4 Croatian side and the international negotiators, what was your
5 impression? Was there a desire among the Croatian authorities to keep
6 the Serbian population in that area? I am referring to Knin Krajina,
7 Western Slavonia, Eastern Slavonia.
8 A. I did not notice that desire. I -- I don't think it existed,
9 although there was a lot of lip service paid to that, but there was no
10 real desire for the Serbian people to remain living there.
11 Q. Could you please tell us what happened to the Serbian population
12 that lived in Croatia, the Serbian population after the Croatian forces
13 reintegrated Western Slavonia and Knin Krajina.
14 A. The biggest ethnic cleansing in Europe after the Second World War
15 happened there. The Serbs almost disappeared from the area. They were
16 like precious metal. They remained only in traces, as the chemists would
17 put it.
18 Q. Could you please tell us what happened to the part of the
19 population which did not leave which remained living in the territory of
20 Western Slavonia and Knin Krajina after Operations Storm and Flash?
21 A. They feared very badly. They faired very badly. We all could
22 see that. I'm sure that you know that, the Prosecution know that. I
23 don't know whether the Trial Chamber knows about the conversations or
24 discussions in the Brioni isles before that operation. That plan was
25 drafted there and they said that their safety should be guaranteed only
1 formally. But the plan was the expel all the Serbs from Croatia. Those
2 who believed the words that were said were elderly people who actually
3 lost their lives during the incidents. Nobody was tried for those
4 incidents although there were some attempts to bring people to justice in
5 Zagreb, but nothing came out of that, as far as I know.
6 Q. I read Prosecutor's question to you a while ago. Amongst other
7 things, it says in that question that you did not want the peaceful
8 reintegration. You -- you wanted the peoples to be separated from each
10 My question is this: When it comes to the reintegration of
11 Knin Krajina and Western Slavonia, did it result in the separation of the
12 peoples or not?
13 A. That reintegration of Knin Krajina and Western Slavonia was
14 forcible. The Croatian side simply cleansed the territory and separated
15 the Serbian people from the Croatian people. In other words, nothing of
16 that was up to me. The Croats did it the way they did it.
17 Unfortunately, they enjoyed support by a segment of the international
18 community as well.
19 Q. When if comes to Operations Storm and Flash, they took place over
20 20 years ago. According to what you know, have the authorities allowed
21 the return of those Serbs who had been expelled from Knin Krajina and
22 Western Slavonia --
23 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
24 MR. STRINGER: Your Honour, the Prosecution is going to object to
25 this line of questioning. It is relating to events that took place in
1 1995 after the relevant parts in the indictment in this case. It goes to
2 tu quoque but probably most significantly of all, the Chamber has heard
3 volumes of evidence and testimony throughout the trial on these issues.
4 They're not seriously in dispute in terms of what happened to the Serbian
5 population in these areas in 1995, for example, but we're taking up
6 valuable court time for an issue that has been gone into in length and
7 it's of marginal relevance to the extent it's not tu quoque at all.
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I quote the Prosecution's question where he said
10 that Mr. Hadzic insisted on -- sorry. On -- on -- on the separation of
11 people -- of the people. And I just like to clarify whether the
12 separation of people occurred, and if separation of people occurred, when
13 it occurred and why it occurred, and -- and my last question was:
14 Whether the separation of people still exists or not?
15 JUDGE HALL: And with that, you move on. When you said your last
16 question, you mean your last question on this topic, not nearly the last
17 question you asked. In other words, what I'm suggesting is that -- in
18 response to the objection raised by Mr. Stringer, that you wrap it up
19 with that last question.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC:
21 Q. I don't ... I don't know whether Mr. Hadzic already answered
22 something of --
23 A. I did not answer but I can. That separation still exists. Serbs
24 did not return to those regions of Croatia and their numbers there are
25 not nearly as significant as it was before those events.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell me what happened to the houses and
2 apartments of those people, the people who had abandoned Croatia in 1995?
3 A. Those apartments were systematically confiscated, those
4 apartments in the city. And a lot of the houses were destroyed also as
5 part of a systematic campaign. They were either torched or blown up.
6 Q. The Prosecutor also asserted in the courtroom that you wanted to
7 gain control over the territories where Serbs predominated by way of
8 expelling non-Serbs. According to what you know, the houses that were
9 abandoned by the non-Serbs between the year 1991 and 1993, were they also
10 torched, destroyed?
11 A. Both what I know and the truth about it are proportionate. What
12 I know is the truth. That is to say, that the houses were not torched or
13 torn down. I think that it's quite opposite to what happened in Croatia
14 with the Serbs' houses because you've heard the testimony of Mr. Dzakula
15 and other witness who testified about the systematic destruction of as
16 many as 184 villages in Western Slavonia. There were such incidents
17 during 1991 and 1992 but this was a systematic campaign, both the
18 expulsion and the destruction of houses in 1995. The example of Ilok
19 showed the Trial Chamber that the Serbs from Western Slavonia were
20 temporarily moved into the houses. They preserved them. They have
21 abandoned them. And the Croats normally returned to their houses, which
22 were preserved intact, and most of them even included and still had the
24 Q. Mr. Hadzic, if you remember, we had an opportunity to see, inter
25 alia, many video-clips from Vukovar and we also heard many testimonies
1 about the circumstances in the town after the end of combat operations
2 and you saw that it was almost completely destroyed. What I'm interested
3 in is whether you know if, during the combat operations and otherwise,
4 only the non-Serbs' houses were destroyed in Vukovar or not.
5 A. Vukovar was destroyed unselectively, so both the Serbs and the
6 Croats' houses were destroyed. In my view, it was a totally stupid war
7 and it was an unnecessary destruction of facilities and people. We
8 concluded that, and I saw it for the first time when I came to Vukovar
9 for the first time on the 20th of November, because it cannot be
10 described in words how horrible that was for all of us who saw that.
11 Q. [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. From what you know, were the houses torn down, destroyed during
15 the combat operations or later when the combat operations were no longer
17 A. As far as I know, that's the true. And everybody knows that. It
18 only happened during the combat operations.
19 Q. One section of the cross-examination was devoted to the
20 Vance Plan and your position regarding that plan. I will read out to you
21 a part of the Prosecutor's question on page 10378:
22 [In English] "You just said that we did not deal with the problem
23 of settlement and resettlement at all. In fact, Mr. Hadzic, that's not
24 true. You were the lead negotiator in the international negotiations
25 taking place about the Vance Plan, and the Vance Plan and your
1 involvement in it was all about settlement and resettlement. How can you
2 claim that you didn't have any involvement or participation or deal with
3 the problem of settlement and resettlement?"
4 [Interpretation] You can see here two claims suggested by the
5 Prosecutor. We'll begin with the first one; namely, that you were a
6 leading negotiator in the international negotiations taking place about
7 the Vance Plan. Can you tell us whether you, indeed, were the lead
8 negotiator with regards to the Vance Plan?
9 A. I was not the lead negotiator. I did have a meeting with
10 Mr. Goulding once and with Mr. Vance once. But that was unimportant. I
11 think that I was the last one on the list of negotiators, not that I
12 wasn't only the lead one, but I was a completely unimportant negotiator.
13 That is incorrect in the question and everything else that was told is
14 also incorrect. So I can explain that when you ask me about the
16 Q. Can you tell us from what you know who was or who were the lead
17 negotiators with regard to the Vance Plan.
18 A. I did not have a full knowledge at that time, but as it seemed to
19 me, it was the federal state, that is to say, the SFRY. And there was
20 also Serbia, that is to say, Slobodan Milosevic and some of his
21 associates. I don't know who. So both Serbia and SFRY. They were held
22 in Belgrade, and the other side was in Zagreb. So no one asked us
23 anything. They would just let us know the information about what was
24 going on, Mr. Vance did, but we couldn't change anything important about
25 it. And also in the question how the things are linked, the issue of
1 settlement and resettlement is linked with the Vance Plan. In my
2 language it's called conflation of conclusions. When I said that I
3 didn't have anything to do with settlement and resettlement, I meant
4 during the time when I was the president of the region and the president
5 of the republic, and the Vance Plan talked about the return of refugees
6 and that was our obligation, and we wanted them to return as soon as the
7 conditions for that were created.
8 Q. We'll get to that topic but, first, to illuminate everything
9 around these negotiations.
10 When you say that you couldn't change anything, do you imply
11 yourself personally, or do you imply the representatives of the
12 Serbian Krajina, that is to say, SBWS?
13 A. I personally could not change anything, and, generally, my entire
14 side from SBWS couldn't. We only expressed concern about the security of
15 the people. We proposed that the UNPROFOR that was coming to keep the
16 border should prevent Croatian raids. They didn't do it. They
17 guaranteed security. It was not at high level of guarantee but we had to
18 accept it because we had no choice. And my goal was to end the war.
19 That was my goal.
20 Q. Were you in a position to influence the adjustments of the plans
21 so that some of its provisions might be changed? Was it ever discussed?
22 A. No, it wasn't discussed, nor could I do any such thing. The plan
23 was accepted by Zagreb and Belgrade and the United Nations. They
24 formally adopted it and signed it. We never even signed it.
25 Q. According to your understanding of the Vance Plan, who had the
1 obligation to implement the plan and to vouchsafe its implementation in
2 the territory of SBWS and the Krajina, so I mean the Western Krajina and
3 the Knin Krajina?
4 A. There were two stage, as far as I understood that. The first
5 stage was before the -- the definitive taking over of the UN and the
6 guarantees were to be provided by the SFRY, the federal state. And from
7 that moment on, UNPROFOR guaranteed everything. And it wasn't only my
8 view, but that's how it was, that was the agreement, the UNPROFOR took
9 over the responsibility for the security of the entire territory.
10 Q. You have heard the Prosecutor's question in which he says -- I
11 will repeat that part:
12 [In English] "And the Vance Plan and your involvement in it, it
13 was all about settlement and resettlement?"
14 [Interpretation] Could you tell us whether that is a correct
15 interpretation, that the whole Vance Plan boiled down to settlement and
17 A. Of course this is not correct. That only had to do with the last
18 step, and there were many preceding steps and pre-conditions for this to
19 be fulfilled. So, of course, it's not true.
20 Q. When you say that that was the last step, do you remember whether
21 the Vance Plan envisaged something with regard to the security of the
22 people living in the zones that were under the UN protection; and, if it
23 did envisage anything, what was it?
24 A. Well, they were called protected zones. The Vance Plan implied
25 providing security to the population in these zones, so the very name
1 included that meaning.
2 Q. Did that imply all of the population or just the minority that
3 was present there at the time?
4 A. The plan, when we negotiated about it, and when it was adopted,
5 it was quite the opposite. It didn't have to do with the minority but
6 the majority and, of course, all the people living there. But there were
7 negotiations because the Serbs were afraid that they wouldn't be provided
8 with adequate protection. The Vance Plan guaranteed protection to the
9 Serbs that Croatia wouldn't attack them and the next step was to
10 guarantee security to all the population, including the minority and the
12 Q. In your contacts with international representatives, you have
13 seen a number of documents relating to certain complaints about the
14 protection of some ethnic minorities; in particular, the Croats who lived
15 in the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina. From what you know,
16 did these representatives in discussions with you ever express any
17 concern about the protection of the entire population, especially
18 protecting them in from armed attacks that were carried out across the
19 separation lines?
20 A. Never in discussion with me, even though I received only one
21 report that in Eastern Slavonia the Russian Battalion returned fire
22 against the Croats. They never responded. Whenever the Croats attacked,
23 they would seek shelter, and they would allow the Croatian army to carry
24 out these raids. That was the information I had.
25 Q. Did these international representatives ever provide any
1 explanation in view of the contacts you had with them, explanation as to
2 why they did not fulfil this obligation that they had to protect the
3 border from Croatian army raids into protected zones or --
4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we object to the question. We
5 don't agree that it accurately sets out obligations in respect of the
6 Vance Plan among peacekeepers when active military operations are
8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: My question was not as to the active military
11 MR. STRINGER: Well, what was referred to, Your Honour,
12 Mr. Hadzic just said whenever the Croats attacked they would seek
13 shelter, they being the UNPROFOR. And they would allow the Croatian army
14 to carry out these raids and then the question was: Did these
15 international representatives ever provide any explanation in view of the
16 contacts you had with them, explanation as to why they did not fill this
17 obligation that they had to protect the border from the Croatian army
19 And our position is that this is not an obligation to engage in
20 military operations or to protect the population when the Croatian army
21 is attacking. We can disagree, perhaps agree to disagree, on what Vance
22 provided in this respect, but it's our submission that counsel's not
23 accurately stating what the Vance Plan provided.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I know, the Vance Plan provided the
25 security of the population in UN protected areas, and it implies the
1 protection from -- on the raids across the borders too.
2 JUDGE HALL: To the extent that any of this is relevant at the
3 end of the day, in terms of such decisions as the Chamber must make, may
4 I suggest that this be reserved for your final submissions because
5 there's some nuances which cannot, to my mind, be adequately addressed by
6 trying to refine the question.
7 So please continue, Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Hadzic. If you can please
10 repeat your answer, if you still remember the question I asked you.
11 A. Yes, well --
12 Q. If you'd like me to repeat the question --
13 A. No, it's not necessary. First of all, I have to say that
14 Mr. Vance or Goulding said what I now heard from one of the parties. If
15 they had heard that, the Serbs wouldn't have stayed, they would have
16 moved out if they said they wouldn't guarantee security. They did
17 guarantee security to us. But, as I already said, during the Croatian
18 actions, they did not prevent that, and what is more, there were no
19 sanctions for Croatia because of those violations of the Vance Plan.
20 Q. It's a bit unclear in the transcript. It's all right now. It's
21 been corrected. I do apologise.
22 Another question that was raised here was -- it was actually in
23 relation to moving out, resettlement, and so on. The Prosecutor put a
24 question to you that I'm going to read out, 10369 is the page reference:
25 [In English] "Well, under the Vance Plan which you agreed to
1 wasn't under the Vance Plan that, in fact, those Croats who were no
2 longer there were to come back, return of refugees; right? That's what
3 was supposed to -- that's -- that what was supposed to happen."
4 [Interpretation] This is what I'm interested in. In view of the
5 way the question was put, can you tell us, to the best of your knowledge,
6 did the Vance Plan only pertain to the return of Croats who had left or
7 did it pertain generally to refugees who had left their homes during the
8 war operations, regardless of ethnic affiliation?
9 A. In my understanding, the Vance Plan pertained to all persons, all
10 refugees, irrespective of ethnicity. Had it been any different, there
11 would have been no point in discussing it. It would have meant
13 Q. Can you tell me, on the basis of contacts with international
14 representatives, precisely in respect of this topic, did you get the
15 impression that they equally cared about the return of Croat refugees to
16 the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the return of Serb refugees to
17 Croatia or, rather, those parts that were already under the control of
18 the Croatian armed forces?
19 A. Well, not equally. You asked whether it was equal. Well, they
20 cared only about the Croats. They didn't care about the Serbs at all.
21 It was 100 percent different, so it's not that there was some difference
22 but a total difference. For example, the Serbs from Western Slavonia,
23 they were supposed to leave their temporary homes in Croatia and go
24 somewhere, and none of them knew what to tell them, where they should go,
25 because the Croats were supposed to return and they could have only gone
1 to the moon because their houses had been burned.
2 So in response to your question, my answer is that they did not
3 take care of the Serbs adequately, as they did of Croats.
4 Q. In these talks, did you hear perhaps that they had a plan, that
5 they were preparing some plan for the return of these refugees, and
6 especially referring to refugees from Western Slavonia? I'm actually
7 asking about their return to Croatia.
8 A. No, this was not a question at all. According to these
9 negotiators and high officials of the UN, they were not being treated as
10 their problem or, in a way, as human beings. They were not interested in
11 where they would. They were just interested in having the Croats return
12 there. And sometimes I would angrily say where should they go? Into the
13 Danube? Or as I said a moment ago, up to the moon? Because they
14 couldn't go back to Croatia.
15 Q. Can you remember what they would answer to you if you would put
16 that question or if somebody else raised that question?
17 A. Well, I remember how I would put that question. Because I did
18 not put it directly. I would make an introduction in order to explain.
19 I said, We behave or, rather, the international community behaves towards
20 the Serbs as if we were rebels. We are not being recognised as if we
21 were some kind of savages, and Croatia is an internationally recognised
22 state and a recognised member of the UN, and now the Serbs are being
23 asked to resolve this problem and they say that they cannot resolve it
24 with Croatia. And then I said, since Croatia is a member of the
25 international community, that they should resolve it half with the Serbs
1 and half with the Croats. So at least to the extent to which they
2 resolves the problem with us, they should resolve it with the Croats too.
3 And they said, No, no, no, you have to work this out, but we don't talk
4 to Croatia about this. In a way, they didn't want to talk about the
5 return of Serbs to Croatia at all, justifying it by not having the
6 mandate to do that. But I think that they did have the mandate. In my
7 view, from a human point of view and from a legal point of view, this
8 could not have been resolved just in a one-sided way.
9 Q. I'm going to go back a bit to a question that has to do with your
10 contacts with international representatives, again, in relation to some
11 provisions of the Vance Plan, and that has to do with disarmament. You
12 remember that, according to the Vance Plan, disarmament was envisaged,
13 inter alia. So this is what I'm interested in. In your contacts with
14 international representatives, did they insist on having this disarmament
15 carried out, regardless of these attacks that had already been referred
16 to at the Miljavac plateau, Maslenica, the Medak pocket, and so on?
17 A. At first they insisted on having this implemented 100 per cent,
18 and we did hand over the heavy weaponry under this so-called double key.
19 When Croatia carried out attacks, then these weapons were taken for us to
20 defend ourselves. So for this month or two while the fighting went on,
21 they didn't complain. But then again they insisted on having these
22 weapons returned, although they did not guarantee security. And, of
23 course, they couldn't when it was established on the ground that they had
24 not been providing it in the first place. We had a double problem. That
25 is to say, this constant fear of a Croat attack, then the UN, the -- they
1 promised to protect us, did not protect us, and our soldiers were on the
2 border protecting the territory. They didn't know where Croatia would
3 attack. And, on the ground, there weren't any law enforcement forces so
4 we had to face crime because we could not control everything on both
5 sides. We had a limited number of people.
6 Q. Can you just clarify this: You say that they insisted that these
7 weapons should be returned after combat, after the end of combat. What
8 did that mean "after the end of combat or fighting"? Can you tell us
9 this a bit more precisely. What was meant by this "end of combat"?
10 A. Well, after the incident at the Miljavac plateau, when we thought
11 that there would be no other incidents, when the situation calmed down,
12 they did not really ask us to do that while the fighting was still going
13 on, the shooting was still going on. Their mortal was not at such a low
14 level. But then afterwards they did ask that this be done.
15 Q. And when the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina would get such
16 weapons again, when did this actually take place? Was it after attacks
17 or in some other situation?
18 A. Well, again, they had to take this either if Croatia would
19 secretly attack or if we would get information that Croatia would attack
20 in a day or two. But I really have to tell you quite frankly that I did
21 not deal with these military questions very precisely so I cannot speak
22 about this under oath.
23 Q. I would like us to touch upon another topic that was also
24 highlighted by the Prosecutor during the cross-examination. This has to
25 do with Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. One of the assertions put forth by
1 the Prosecutor was that Arkan was your security. I'm going to read out
2 that question to you. It is on page 9945. It reads as follows:
3 [In English] "The fact is, Mr. Hadzic, that Arkan, in fact, did
4 provide security for you on numerous occasions not only through 1991 but
5 also 1992 and 1993. Isn't that true?"
6 [Interpretation] You have provided an answer to that question but
7 I would like us to clarify this a bit. To the best of your knowledge --
8 well, of course, perhaps you cannot be quite precise, but can you tell us
9 in this period from 1991 to 1993, how many people did Zeljko Raznjatovic,
10 Arkan, have under his command?
11 A. I don't have precise information. I couldn't count them. I just
12 remember what he stated in public in the media on TV and some of the
13 comments of my drivers and friends who were better informed than I was.
14 That sometimes he would exaggerate this. So I think it was between 100
15 and 200, 250 men maximum. Usually around 100 men.
16 Q. Do you know roughly what kind of weapons they had?
17 A. Arkan and a few of these senior officers of his had Hecklers,
18 Heckler/Koch rifles, very expensive ones. And the rest had the most
19 up-to-date infantry weapons, automatic rifles, things like that. That's
20 what I could see when I came to that centre. Every day I saw the guards
21 there. In a way, they controlled this road that I had to take.
22 Q. Did Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, arrive with a unit like that to
23 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem in order to provide security for you?
24 I'm referring to you personally.
25 A. Of course not. When he arrived, he probably didn't even know who
1 I was. I certainly didn't know who he was. I never had a security
2 detail of more than five or six men at one point in time, in a single
3 day. I've already mentioned that. And I think I've already given the
4 names of all of my body-guards from 1991 to 1993, and later on, from 1996
5 to 1997, because I reactivated most of them. So Zeljko Raznjatovic had a
6 combat unit. It wasn't my understanding that he was anybody's private
7 security. He came to fight with long-barrelled weapons. That's what I
8 managed to see.
9 Q. In this period between 1991 and 1993 and perhaps even later, did
10 you ever issue any orders, any instructions to Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?
11 A. Never. Also as I moved about in the field, I did not see anyone
12 who gave him any kind of orders. I really have no knowledge to that
13 effect. I was never present at any one of their meetings, say, with
14 Biorcevic or something like that. I could not see that.
15 Q. In 1991, was it necessary for such a unit headed by him to come
16 to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem to provide security for you?
17 A. Well, that is completely wrong. I mean, even to ask something
18 like that. Right now, in hindsight, I can tell Their Honours when I see
19 all of that, what I know now, I couldn't -- I didn't need to have any
20 kind of security because I was not incident-prone in any way. I did not
21 have any -- I was not involved in any incidents. In 1991 I had this
22 driver who was my body-guard too and he suggested that bringing in
23 Japundzic because he said that he was not a good driver. And as they
24 also said, we socialised more than we worked because there was really no
25 need for them to protect me. I have never heard from anyone, except for
1 Arkan and Badza, that I was in any kind of danger. I didn't even hear
2 that from the Croats. They were just talking. They were saying, You
3 have poor security, et cetera, et cetera. However, in 1991, I never
4 reenforced my security detail. I just stayed on with these two men.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. On the same page, the Prosecutor, amongst other things, suggested
9 that you socialised with him quite a lot in order to improve your
10 position in the authorities, and he also promised that he would
11 intimidate others on your behalf.
12 Please, was there any need of that kind in 1991? Is this
14 A. This is not correct. This is completely distorted. I believe
15 that the opposite was true. I had already become president when I still
16 didn't know him. When he turned up, he was a hindrance more than
17 anything else. He was incident-prone and he was not very well loved by
18 the Serbs in Pacetin, Bobanje [phoen], Trpinja whom I talked to. I'm not
19 saying that he went against my authority but he certainly never improved
20 it. I never worked with him. I only saw him from time to time.
21 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, Your Honour, just to say
22 that -- I don't know that we would agree with the characterisation of
23 what was put to Mr. Hadzic on his cross, whether there's a record
24 reference that Mr. Zivanovic can give us. I don't know that it was
25 suggested by the Prosecution that Hadzic socialised with Arkan in order
1 to improve his position. I think the word that was put to Mr. Hadzic on
2 the cross was that he associated with Arkan, which has a different
3 meaning. I could be wrong. If counsel could direct me to the transcript
4 where I said "socialised," then I would stand corrected.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I didn't read that portion of transcript and
6 maybe it was my -- my interpretation, but I'll do it now. It is the same
7 transcript page, 9945. It is from line 6:
8 "You associated yourself with him frequently. Did you it -- you
9 did this because it enhanced your own powers and enable you to intimidate
10 others and to get your way by associating yourself with
11 Zeljko Raznjatovic."
12 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether your previous answer
13 actually covers what I've just read out to you or is there anything you
14 wish to add?
15 A. Yes. It suffices. I would say that the opposite was true.
16 There was no intimidation at all. You will certainly understand from the
17 witnesses that I never intimidated somebody. So just the opposite was
19 Q. Can you please tell us whether you met with him by arranging
20 those meetings or did he arrange those meetings or was there anything
21 else involved?
22 A. I don't remember that I ever looked for him, perhaps a couple of
23 times only. The -- one of those times was when I had problems with
24 Klis [phoen] and then I went to the centre. I would also -- always meet
25 him either on the road, in town, in the village. When I was somewhere,
1 he would follow me. At first I thought that those were chance meetings
2 but then I started suspecting that he was actually really following me.
3 He mostly came to Erdut to the courtyard of the government building. He
4 just turned up. I never called him. I never invited him. And then when
5 he threatened me about the Vance Plan, I actually realised -- I was
6 certain that he was following me. Actually, it was a threat against
7 Babic, and then I realised that it was addressed at me as well, when he
8 said to Babic that he would kill his children and I don't know what. But
9 I have to be honest and say that he never threatened me personally and
11 Q. When we are talking about the security detail provided to you by
12 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, the Prosecutor also asked you about his
13 presence in Velepromet on the 29th November, 1991. I'm going to read
14 that transcript page. It's 9957:
15 [In English] "Isn't it true that he provided security for you to
16 get from Erdut to the Velepromet facility in Vukovar on the 20th of
17 November 1991?
18 "A. That is not true. He did not provide security for my route
19 to Erdut in 1991, 1992 or 1993."
20 [Interpretation] And later on page 9958, the next page, you were
21 shown a portion of your interview with the investigator Dzuro. I'm
22 talking about the part about Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, going to
23 Velepromet and why he did that. And your answer is on page 9958 and I
25 [In English] "We needed that. It's not that we had to penetrate
1 through the area but we didn't want any incidents to occur in Vukovar
2 because Arkan had sufficient authority in order to prevent this kind of
4 [Interpretation] I'm sure you remember this part of the
6 A. Yes, I do. But the interpretation I received - and that may be
7 due to the differences between Croatian and Serbian - that Arkan had
8 competencies. I said "authority." If it is one and the same, then it's
9 okay. He was not authorised but he had his own personal power. I
10 believe that's what I said. He was not officially authorised to do
11 anything, and I think it's a very big difference.
12 Q. Yes, I know that you used the word "authority." And that's what
13 I see in the original text as well. However, I just wanted to ask you
14 what you meant when you said "we needed that"?
15 MR. STRINGER: Apologise for the interruption Your Honour. Just
16 to say that I believe counsel's referring to the suspect interview with
17 Mr. Dzuro and, in fact, here Mr. Hadzic's prior statement as from his
18 testimony in the Dokmanovic case, not from his suspect interview. So,
19 just for the record.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour. It was my error.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the question.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Let me just correct something -- yes, that is your prior
24 testimony, the Dokmanovic case. I misspoke when I quoted the source.
25 Let me repeat the question. As a matter of fact, what did you
1 want to say when you said "we needed that"?
2 A. When I used the personal pronoun "we," I meant the government.
3 What I meant was that the government needed to prevent any possible
4 incidents in Velepromet because some members of the government were
5 afraid and didn't even dare to go to Vukovar. I said I will go at any
6 cost. I have nothing to fear. They requested additional guarantees -
7 Dr. Hadzic particularly - and that's why they invited Arkan to provide
8 security for the entire government. And the conflation started from
9 there. That was the beginning of the rumours that Arkan was my security
10 detail, and then the JNA and everybody else exploited that. And it was a
11 good enough reason for them to cover up Arkan's role and mask his order
12 givers. They actually masked his role under the pretense that he was my
13 security detail, but he wasn't. That's simply not true.
14 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to read yet another part of the
15 Prosecutor's questions and your answers. I don't believe that you will
16 have the time to answer my question. I will read first and then during
17 the break, you can actually think about the answer.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm quoting from page 9966:
19 [In English] "And in what capacity then is he standing next to
20 you? What's the reason why he's there with you at this press conference
21 in Erdut?
22 "A. It's difficult for me to answer now, considering that Arkan
23 is dead and I don't know. I'm not sure whether he was standing there
24 already when I started giving the interview, or he came later and stopped
25 there in order to be in the picture.
1 "Q. So could it be one of those occasions you've described where
2 he was just trying to get close to you or was attempted to follow you
3 around to get close to you?
4 "A. That's the way it always happened. This is just one more
5 such situation."
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see the -- it is appropriate time for the
7 break, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HALL: I heard your point about allowing him time to think
9 about it, but is it something that requires a -- is it a question that he
10 couldn't answer at this point? We could take the break, but ...
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah, we could take the break. Because there are
12 many questions after that.
13 JUDGE HALL: Very well. So we take the break at this point.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic, you may continue.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, I believe that you still remember my
19 question, i.e., that you remember the quote which was Mr. Stringer's
20 question. Amongst other things, let me remind you of what you said in
21 your answer. You said that you didn't know whether he was standing next
22 to you only to be in the photo. My question is this: According to you,
23 did Arkan like publicity?
24 A. Yes, that was one of his main features. That's why he tried to
25 engage the journalist van Lynden to be his private journalist. However,
1 I remembered something else about that interview. When the Prosecutor
2 showed me that, the journalist asked me about the visit of the mayor of
3 Belgrade. When Mr. Unkovic was there, I wasn't with him. I was
4 prevented from hosting him. However, I saw in the photo that somebody
5 received him on behalf of the government. I believe it was Dr. Hadzic
6 and I also saw Arkan. And I remember that in a way. Arkan was his host
7 because they had known each other from Belgrade. I suppose that he stood
8 next to me because he expected that the journalist would ask him about
9 the visit. He was always on TV, every day, so his photo could have been
10 taken even without me in it, but I suppose that he expected that he would
11 be asked about the visit because Unkovic visited him as well, as far as I
12 can remember. So I believe that explains the whole situation. Maybe it
13 would be interesting to learn something about my security detail. I
14 didn't tell you either but maybe the Trial Chamber would like to know
15 when I lost in the election, Martic sent the police to confiscate my car
16 since they couldn't --
17 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. Hadzic.
18 Apologies for the interruption. Your Honour, I'm look at Rule 90
19 on testimony of witnesses. 90(F) says that the Trial Chamber shall
20 exercise control over the mode and order or interrogating witnesses and
21 presenting evidence so as to make the integration and presentation
22 effective for the ascertainment of the truth and avoid needless
23 consumption of time. And I would respectively suggest, Your Honour, that
24 much of what we've heard so far in this redirect is actually just a
25 rehash, sort of just a restating of the direct examination. I know
1 counsel has referred to some questions that were put to Mr. Hadzic during
2 cross but it's largely just saying again what was said before. And it's
3 not true re-direct in that sense, in our submission, and just now where
4 Mr. Hadzic is sort of taking the floor to provide some more information
5 on an issue that was dealt with on the cross without really having been
6 asked to is really taking a step further, so we object to the -- what we
7 think is a needless consumption of time and not a proper form of
8 re-direct examination.
9 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zivanovic, sorry, you were going to say
10 something --
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE HALL: -- in reply. Yes.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: All my questions were put in order to clarify the
14 question -- the answers the accused gave to the -- on the Prosecution's
15 questions, and I quoted all the Prosecution questions, and all of these
16 questions are closely related to the matters raised by the Prosecution in
17 course of their cross-examination. And, as far as I see, Mr. Hadzic
18 gave -- give -- gave his answers in a way he -- he -- he find it
20 JUDGE HALL: The observation that frames Mr. Stringer's objection
21 is, of course, not a -- an uncommon problem in these proceedings, and in
22 that vein, I would remind you, Mr. Zivanovic, that you should focus your
23 question on the points that would have arisen in cross-examination which
24 you would wish to have clarified for the benefit of such future
25 submissions as you would make to the Trial Chamber.
1 And, Mr. Hadzic, I would remind you that you should listen to the
2 question and only answer the question asked. And the way a question is
3 phrased should not be used as an opportunity to make -- to volunteer
4 information that you -- you -- you want to somehow get in.
5 So counsel on his feet is the one who is to guide this process,
6 so, Mr. Zivanovic, I would ask you to keep your witness under control.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'll do, Mr. President.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, I'm not sure about the previous
9 question. You did begin, actually, to give an answer and gave it
10 partially but then you were interrupted.
11 What I'm interested in is whether you wanted to answer the
12 question I already asked you, or if you wanted to say something else, if
13 you wanted to answer my question, then please complete your answer.
14 JUDGE HALL: But, Mr. Zivanovic, isn't that precisely -- isn't
15 that precisely the problem that Mr. Stringer has put his finger on. It
16 isn't for the witness to say something else if he wants. Question and
17 answer, and only the answer.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And -- and, Your Honour, I am not aware whether
19 Mr. Hadzic completed his answer on my question. That's my question.
20 JUDGE HALL: Let's -- let's move forward quickly.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say something about
22 security, and I can tell you how it worked if you ask me that, because
23 the Prosecutor asked me that too. I was asked whether Arkan was my
24 security. I wanted to say that he didn't and to explain how I provided a
25 security myself.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My question would specifically be linked with the Prosecutor's
3 assertion that Arkan was your security. Was there a need for him to
4 provide security to you at Erdut during the meeting with Mayor Unkovic.
5 A. There was no need, at least 20 kilometres around there was no
6 possibility of any enemy activities. So there was no need for him to
7 secure me.
8 Q. And was it necessary for him to provide security for you during
9 the interview with the TV journalist?
10 A. No, nor was he doing that. He was either just standing there so
11 his photo would be taken or he was waiting in line to be interviewed
13 Q. During the cross-examination, you were shown Exhibit P2715. It's
14 tab 742.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 34 in English. And I
16 would just like to look at it briefly.
17 Q. It's the penultimate paragraph. There is no need to include the
18 B/C/S text as well. General Panic is speaking here and I will just read
19 out to you the first sentence where he says:
20 [In English] "He is a person who had some good contacts with the
21 press, and press loved him for several reasons. He could speak several
22 languages, and that's why the foreign press maintained contacts with him.
23 He was a good host."
24 [Microphone not activated]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So my question is whether this is correct, what General Panic
3 said on this occasion about Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?
4 A. He obviously had better information than me, but I think that it
5 was true that he was on good terms with foreign journalists.
6 MR. STRINGER: Apologies for the intervention. I don't recall
7 showing this to Mr. Hadzic on cross-examination. I wonder if there's a
8 reference for that.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think it was shown but not maybe this
10 particular part of this document. Anyway, I'm not -- I'm not -- I'll not
11 put any other questions related to this document.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, the Prosecutor asked you also about
13 a meeting you had with Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and the Dutch
14 journalist van Lynden.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 9960.
16 Q. You probably remember his testimony before the Tribunal.
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I wanted to remind you of something from his statement and his
19 testimony about this meeting at the patisserie to leave alone everything
20 that happened later. Could you tell me whether what he said at the time
21 is true -- or, rather, can you first tell me something about this meeting
22 and communication, whether you personally took part in this conversation
23 between the journalist, van Lynden, and Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. Did
24 you actively participate in it?
25 A. No, I didn't participate in it at all. I was just introduced to
1 this man, and I was brought there by a trick. Because a friend I knew
2 said, Let us meet at the patisserie and then ten or 15 minutes later
3 Arkan showed up and said, Let me introduce you to a journalist. He is
4 very important. He works for the CIA. I remember that very well. So we
5 shook hands, and I may have been there for five minutes. When I heard
6 that Arkan wanted some weapons from him and wanted him to follow Arkan
7 around, film him, and make interviews with him for CNN or whatever other
8 media companies, when I heard that, I just said goodbye and left. I
9 didn't want to participate in that because I thought it was crazy for a
10 journalist to be able to procure weapons and how could such things be?
11 Q. Please tell me if you remember how they talked, in what language?
12 A. They talked in English. And my level of knowledge was not very
13 much at the time but I understood some parts of the conversation. Weapon
14 and so on. And if he worked for the CIA how could he do it? No one
15 would allow him to do it at the time and he requested a pair of some
16 special pistols. But it was all nonsense. And van Lynden, of course,
17 did not agree to that, nor could he have done it. I just went back and
18 sat at the table with the company that I had arrived there with and I
19 left soon afterwards, as soon as I had paid my bill.
20 Q. And during the cross-examination, the Prosecutor also told you at
21 one point -- he made an assertion that Arkan was the commander of the
22 Serb Volunteer Guard. From what you knew, you confirmed that, as far as
23 I remember?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. On page 10.000, it's also stated that he continued commanding
1 units of the Serbian Volunteer Guard in operations in the
2 Republic of Serbian Krajina. From what you know, did Zeljko Raznjatovic,
3 Arkan, take part in combat operations in the first place and did he
4 command any units?
5 A. I'm not sure if he personally participated, because as he was
6 elected deputy in the assembly of the Republic of Serbia, he withdrew
7 from the military operations, and I wasn't informed about his activities.
8 I didn't ask him, nor was I on such terms with him, but I know from the
9 media and from the conversations I had with Mile Novakovic that some of
10 those so-called his men took part in fighting around Obrovac and in
11 fighting on Velebit, and so on. But it wasn't Arkan. These were the men
12 that were called his men, in a way, or those who were part of the
13 Army of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina. I'm not sure what it was
14 then. But some people did call them the Tigers.
15 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a document. If we could please look at
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's P1937, tab 803. It's on
18 page 10.003. I think it's on page 2, if we can please have a look at
20 Q. I will try to find it for you on this page, the B/C/S text,
21 regarding your -- your contacts with Arkan. But it seems that -- yes.
22 Yes. It's the second paragraph in English, and here -- I think that it's
23 the second paragraph in the first column. Yes. Can you see it well now?
24 A. How does the text begin?
25 Q. "The former first man of the Republic of Serbian Krajina" --
1 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
2 Q. It says:
3 "I was here with Arkan every day, bombs were exploding all
4 around, if not for anything else then because of my personal courage and
5 that's why Zeljko attended the government sessions [sic]."
6 Could you tell us whether you really told this sentence to the
7 lady who interviewed you at the time?
8 A. I can say that this is the biggest lie and fantasy that anyone
9 could have imagined and written, not that I ever said it. I never
10 thought that. It's not true, not a single letter of it. No bombs ever
11 exploded in my vicinity. Arkan was never there. I was never sitting
12 together with him. It's probably her -- it's probably she who wrote that
13 in Belgrade but I don't know why.
14 Q. Tell me, please, during the war, were you in your house in
15 Pacetin all the time?
16 A. Well, I don't want to make a mistake now. During the war,
17 perhaps only twice I was there briefly for five minutes to see my mom and
18 dad. I could not have been there because the house did not have the
19 right amenities. It didn't have a proper roof. Had a mortar shell
20 fallen there, it would have killed everyone and we didn't even have a
21 basement where we could hide. So it was not only that I was not there,
22 even if I wanted to, I ...
23 Q. [Microphone not activated]
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Although you've answered my next question in a way, I would like
2 it to be on the record, nevertheless. Is this correct that Arkan sat
3 with you in Pacetin every day, there, in front of your house, while
4 shells were falling?
5 A. Arkan never sat with me in front of my house.
6 Q. And is it true that he was at government meetings because he was
7 brave? I think that's the way she put it here; is that correct?
8 A. Well, no, that is not correct, and this has nothing to do with
9 anything. This is absolutely insane. It wasn't that brave people
10 attended government sessions. Government members attended the sessions,
11 and that is not an issue now, whether they're brave or not, and if Arkan
12 would enter a government session, he would not be there as a member of
13 the government.
14 Q. [Microphone not activated]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Microphone, please.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. On the fifth page of the English translation here, it says, inter
18 alia, that you said when things were the most difficult in Knin, the
19 response to call-up was 8 per cent; is that correct? Was that faithfully
21 A. As far as I can remember, this was not recorded, this interview.
22 It was a conversation. And the journalist took notes. As for this
23 particular piece of information specifically, I think that after the
24 Maslenica operation, Spanovic, Stojan said to me that the response to
25 mobilisation in Knin was very poor and that it was very low, less than
1 10 per cent, this first call-up response. I don't know whether she got
2 this information from me or from somebody else, but it's not that it's
3 baseless. It's the first day of the attack on Maslenica. Later on, it
4 increased. I mean, the response to mobilisation.
5 Q. On the third page of this same document, it says that you said
6 that you started growing a beard at the beginning of the war; is that
8 A. No. No. This is an erroneous conclusion on her part or maybe
9 she heard it from somebody else. I don't remember these silly details
10 usually, but I do remember when I started growing a moustache and when I
11 started growing a beard. A moustache in 1981, when I was in the army;
12 and a beard in the spring of 1990, after the second round of Croatian
13 elections, that is to say, a year before the war started.
14 Q. There's another thing I wanted to ask you, and it's on page 4 of
15 the English translation. It says that Seselj was an unwanted guest in
16 the Krajina.
17 A. I'd have to see the context. Could you please direct me to where
18 it is in the Serbian version. I think it should be scrolled down.
19 Q. To the right or to the left a bit?
20 A. I think it's the next page.
21 Q. Could be. I think it's a bit --
22 A. Yes, yes, I see it now. Maybe we could zoom in on the left-hand
24 Q. The first paragraph. Yes, that's it.
25 A. I have to say that I had this bad clash with Mr. Seselj at the
1 time and he was an unwanted guest as far as I was concerned and other
2 people who supported me. However, I did not meet with him, and I did not
3 know when it was that he came there. He never called me.
4 Q. On page 10.012, the Prosecutor asked you, inter alia, about a
5 meeting in the Ministry of Defence of Serbia where the then-minister,
6 General Simovic, was present, and you were present, and also Arkan and a
7 person with the nickname Kum. You wanted to say something -- or, rather,
8 you were interrupted as you were providing your answer. So I'd like to
9 ask you to say what it was that you wanted to say on that occasion.
10 A. I wanted to say that it was Simovic who invited me to come to
11 this meeting in Belgrade. Now was it through the secretary, his
12 secretary, or how that Vlade, our secretary. Arkan was there, and this
13 other person was there, and I don't know what that person's name is. And
14 I did not take part in this meeting. I didn't really say anything
15 because I saw that it was really not a serious meeting at all.
16 Q. As far as I can remember, I think that you wanted to explain then
17 how it was that this meeting took place, or maybe I'm mistaken.
18 A. I cannot remember now. I think that my concentration is down a
20 Q. Well, it's all right. I'm not going to insist on that question
21 now. On page 10.008, I'd like to ask you to clarify a particular matter.
22 I'm going to read it out to you, the question and the answer, and then
23 you're going to say what this pertains to exactly:
24 [In English] "Q. Continuing down a few lines you say that some
25 people objected, that Arkan attended RSK government sessions.
1 "A. I respected his knowledge of the military and thus he
2 attended the sessions.
3 "Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, what this suggests here is that, in fact,
4 Arkan attended assembly sessions of the RSK because you wanted him to do
5 so, isn't that how it was, because of his military skill?
6 "A. No, this is absolutely incorrect. I did not say that nor
7 can that stand in any sensible way. In my interpretation, I heard
8 Assembly but here it says government of the RSK. I was not a member of
9 the government. I had no influence on the agenda. I didn't attend the
10 meetings. I personally attended the government meetings maybe two or
11 three times but when I attended, Arkan was not present, so I don't know.
12 These are some conclusions by the journalists and it's not anything that
13 I myself said."
14 [Interpretation] My question: I see here that what is referred
15 to is Arkan's presence at assembly sessions and government sessions. So
16 I just wanted to see whether we could clarify the matter. Can you
17 explain this to us, this answer of yours? Does it have to do with
18 assembly sessions or government sessions or both?
19 A. Well, I thought that it pertained to assembly sessions when Arkan
20 could come on his own and sit there as a guest because nobody could expel
21 him or anybody else, and once he attended as a member of parliament of
22 the Republic of Serbia. And when I said that this is incredible and that
23 it's silly, it's because somebody had said that he came as a military
24 expert. He never discussed any such thing and nobody ever asked him for
25 his views on anything and these bodies did not discuss military matters
1 or make decisions on military matters. I never attended the government
2 session when Arkan was present there, so I don't know. According to some
3 subsequent information, I think he was there only once and I heard that
4 here when Martic said in a video-clip that Arkan attended a government
5 session and that they quarrelled. This is the government of the Krajina
6 in Knin. That was my understanding, not the government of Slavonia and
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Could you please explain the answer you've provided just now, the
12 first sentence, actually:
13 [In English] "I thought that it pertained to assembly sessions
14 when Arkan could come on his own and sit there as a guest because nobody
15 could expel him or anybody else and once ..."
16 [Interpretation] What were you actually trying to say?
17 A. On the basis of my experience and on the basis of what I know,
18 when Arkan would walk into an assembly session he would just sit there.
19 He'd walk in and sit there. Nobody had invited him but he'd just stay,
20 and other people, in a way, they could walk in and sit there because
21 nobody asked for identification and nobody was calling out names and
22 saying who could attend and who could not attend. That is what I was
23 trying to say.
24 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a document, P1845.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 1282. Could we have
2 page 69, please, of the B/C/S original, and page 73 in the English
4 Maybe we should start with the previous page of the original.
5 Q. Can you see that at the bottom of the page where it starts? I
6 mean, what Zivota Panic is saying. And he says Arkan carried out
7 missions in this area very well. At one point he broke away but then
8 they brought him back, and so on. However, he is doing Yugoslavia a
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move to next page in original, please.
11 Q. [Interpretation] He should be called and given a task. Those who
12 sent him there should call him. I do not know who sent him. However,
13 Arkan was present in Bijeljina, Zvornik, around Sarajevo, Knin,
14 et cetera.
15 This is what I'm interested in now. You spoke here about going
16 to Bijeljina in order to meet Fikret Abdic, but this is what I'm
17 interested in too. Did you go to Zvornik when Arkan was there?
18 A. Well, I went nowhere. I went to none of these towns, except
19 Bijeljina that is on the road between Knin and Vukovar. And I did not
20 even know where Arkan was waging war and who he had agreed with. And I
21 never met with him and I never had the opportunity of discussing these
22 topics with him.
23 Q. In the next sentence it says:
24 "Somebody is leading him and issuing tasks to him. We should see
25 who this is. It is certain that it is not us."
1 Can you tell us now since it was stated here that Arkan was part
2 of your security. Did the members of your security go around Zvornik and
3 Sarajevo even though you did not go there?
4 A. They didn't go anywhere without me. When they were free, they
5 were at their homes, and they rested with their families. As for this
6 route from Vukovar to Knin, I never went anywhere apart from that, and my
7 security was never at any place where I did not go to. So he really has
8 nothing to do with me, and he was not part of my security.
9 Q. In view of the fact -- I'm going to read one portion from this
10 document which was shown to you by the Prosecutor and I'm also going to
11 read the answer you provided. The page number is 10.041:
12 [In English] "Mr. Hadzic, before the break, we were looking at
14 "Mr. Stringer: And indeed the page of B/C/S that we wanted is
15 page 62 of the document in B/C/S which is -- ends with the ERN number
16 4965. And towards the bottom, that's it. Thank you. Toward the bottom,
17 I should say the bottom third, Panic is talking here about the expulsions
18 in Lovas and that Lovas is constantly being watched by Jovic's Chetniks,
19 the White Eagles. Now, Mr. Hadzic, Zivota Panic knew about this. It is
20 your evidence that you didn't know anything about Mr. Jovic's activities
21 and those of his White Eagles in Lovas during this period?
22 "A. Yes, that's what I said that I didn't know anything about
24 "Q. Well, in April of 1992, when this is happening, it was
25 possible for you to go to this area, isn't it? You were able to move
1 down through Western Srem.
2 A. Yes, it was the Republic of Serbian Krajina at the time, and
3 it was all free, and then in the next paragraph he says that we must have
4 a serious showdown with Arkan and the White Eagles. He says Arkan is led
5 by Hadzic."
6 [Interpretation] Tell me, please -- as a matter of fact, I'm
7 going to finish the quote so that I don't have to come back to it later:
8 [In English] "Mr. Stringer: Could we have tab 459, please,
9 Exhibit P1845, page 86 of the English; page 62, 63 of the B/C/S.
10 "Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is the record of the SFRU Presidency held
11 in April of 1992, the 16th, do you recall what Mr. Panic's position was
12 at that time?
13 "A. I think that he was the commander of the
14 1st Military District but I'm not 100 per cent sure about it.
15 "Q. We can go back to page 2 of this. Indicates that as of that
16 time of this meeting, he was the acting chief of the General Staff or
17 Chief of the Main Staff of the JNA. Would you disagree with that?
18 "A. I agree. I'm just a bit confused. I know that he was
19 appointed a commander of the 1st Military District, but I don't know that
20 he was appointed commander.
21 "Q. Now moving to page 86 ..."
22 [Interpretation] I'll stop here and invite you to provide an
23 explanation at this point regarding what we see on the screen.
24 General Panic, while saying that Arkan was in Bijeljina, Zvornik, around
25 Sarajevo and in Knin said, Somebody is leading him. Somebody is giving
1 him his tasks. You had the opportunity to hear at that same meeting that
2 somebody said that you were actually leading him, that Arkan was led by
4 Tell me, please, do you think that, in your view, while
5 General Panic was speaking at that meeting was he sincere? Was he honest
6 when he said that you were the one who was leading Arkan, or was he was
7 sincere when he said that he didn't know who was leading Arkan and who
8 gave him his task?
9 A. I don't think that he was sincere when he said it was me. But he
10 was also not sincere when he said he didn't know who was it. Because
11 before that, Panic says that Arkan carried out his task well which means
12 that it was the JNA who led him. But then he realised that he made a
13 mistake, that he put his foot in his mouth so he tried to reiterate so
14 Arkan was led by the army, and the army were one and the same, so Panic
15 lied because he was speaking before the Presidency, the highest body of
16 Yugoslavia that appointed him. He lied, so he actually made up that it
17 was me. But everybody understood that he was lying. I'm sure that
18 everybody understood then and still understand now. I really didn't have
19 anything to do with Arkan. I didn't have any information whatsoever
20 about Arkan's work or who was behind that work. Obviously Panic knew
21 that very well, but he did not want to say.
22 Q. Could you please tell me whether you can conclude from the text
23 or perhaps you know from some other sources what tasks did General Panic
24 have in mind when he said that Arkan carried them out really efficiently?
25 A. I can only assume that Panic was satisfied with his activities in
1 Slavonia and Baranja when he was a member of Biorcevic's corps. I can
2 only assume that because I didn't hear anybody from the army attacking
3 him but I never attended meetings with him on those issues. Nobody
4 reported to me either orally or in written form about any of those
6 Q. Did you have an opportunity to either see or hear that some
7 high-ranking officers said something good about the behaviour of
8 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and his unit?
9 A. Yes, I did have such opportunities. I saw it in the newspaper --
10 newspapers. General Biorcevic commended him, and also both him and Badza
11 were rewarded with some trophy weapons. He moved in those circles in
12 Belgrade among very influential people, that is. At that time I couldn't
13 do that, nor did I have any opportunity to meet with anybody of those
14 people and rub shoulders with them like Arkan did.
15 Q. Do you know, do you remember who awarded him with those trophy
16 weapons in recognition of his work?
17 A. It was the commander of the Novi Sad Corps, Andrija Biorcevic,
18 who did that. That was the same general who, after the liberation of
19 Vukovar, was received by General Panic, who was the chief of the
20 General Staff. He was the first next to him. Panic congratulated him on
21 that occasion. He was one of Panic's closest associates.
22 Q. Amongst other things, I quoted a portion of a question relative
23 to Jovic's Chetniks, White Eagles, to be more precise, what General Panic
24 said about Lovas, Jovic, and all those things.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the same
1 document, page 67, in the original, and in English, it would be page 70.
2 [In English] If we could scroll down English text, please. Oh. Maybe
3 you should move to the next page in English. That's it.
4 Q. [Interpretation] This is paragraph 1 in English, as well in the
5 original. You'll find that in the first paragraph. This is what
6 Borisav Jovic said. He said:
7 "When it comes to the Eagles and Arkan, I believe that the
8 military should arrest all of them pursuant to our order."
9 Could you please tell me whether you remember what
10 Borisav Jovic's position was at the time.
11 A. I believe that he was the acting president of the Presidency of
12 the SFRY, which means number one man of the Supreme Command.
13 Q. The Supreme Command that you are talking about is the
14 Supreme Command of the armed forces of the SFRY. Did I understand you
16 A. Yes, you did. At that time, it was still the JNA, but he was the
17 number one man of its Supreme Command, I believe.
18 Q. Tell me, please, in view of the time when this happened and in
19 view of everything that I told you about General Panic's words and I even
20 quoted from his discourse where he said that at one point you were the
21 one who was leading Arkan. Were you at all informed about the
22 requirement to arrest Arkan? Were you told that you should do something
23 about that?
24 A. No, never. At that time everybody knew that he was under the
25 direct subordination and control of Belgrade and that he had nothing
1 whatsoever to do with the Krajina Serbs, that he had arrived as a member
2 of federal institutions. That's how he behaved. Nobody from Belgrade
3 ever sent me either a verbal or a written report or complaint about his
4 conduct in the area.
5 I understand why they didn't, because everybody knew that I was
6 not responsible for any of that. That's the most logical explanation.
7 Q. On the 21st of July, the Prosecutor showed you yet another
8 document; it's P1878.
9 He also showed you something. In order to avoid rephrasing, I'm
10 going to read the question to you.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Could we have, please, P1878, tab 531:
12 "Q. Mr. Hadzic, while it's come up, this is the Supreme Defence
13 Council of the FRU in July of 1992, about thee months after the meeting,
14 the Presidency meeting, we were just talking about. Zivota Panic present
15 there. And I would direct your attention to page 14 of the English, 16
16 of the B/C/S. And here now in July of 1992, Panic is saying: Many
17 things have been said about Arkan. Measures had been taken. However,
18 you should look for Goran Hadzic to find out what Arkan doing. He keeps
19 him around as a body-guard and he leads him. And then in the next
20 passage, Momir Bulatovic says essentially that Arkan is getting stronger
21 again. That means someone was -- someone is behind these people. The
22 question now, Mr. Hadzic, is again here in July of 1992, it is Zivota
23 Panic who is correct, isn't it, that, in fact, if somebody wanted to know
24 where Arkan was and what he was doing, they just should find you because
25 Arkan was close to you as a body-guard?"
1 Q. [Interpretation] I will kindly ask you to look at the following
2 page in the same document. We have not seen that page yet. In English,
3 it's actually on the same page. You don't have to change the English
4 page for the time being?
5 Slobodan Milosevic also attended that meeting and he says -- the
6 question was:
7 "And he has units?"
8 Slobodan Milosevic answers:
9 "I don't think so. No, according to the information that I
10 received from our ministry, he doesn't have any. Arkan was also a
11 volunteer at the time when the army was operating on the battle-field and
12 he was under the army command. He was not on his own."
13 I'm going to ask you this: Do you think that Slobodan Milosevic
14 who shared the information that he received, that he didn't have any
15 other information.
16 A. What he said at the end that he was under the control of the
17 army, that's correct. And what he said before that, that he didn't have
18 information, I don't think that he was telling the truth. I believe that
19 Milosevic knew very well what Arkan was doing and who was behind Arkan.
20 I believe that he had complete information, unlike me.
21 Q. Can you explain why General Panic again brought him in connection
22 with you? Obviously you can explain if you know. Why did he put Arkan
23 in that same context again and claim that he was your body-guard?
24 A. I believe that he was trying to deceive all those people at the
25 meeting, if that was at all possible. Because everybody knew that he
1 didn't have anything to do with me. On the previous page, Bulatovic said
2 that he was driving around Herzegovina in a car with police registration
3 plates. Everybody knew that this was a blatant lie, that Arkan enjoyed
4 support from Belgrade. You can look at the following page of the Serbian
6 Q. It's on the previous page. However, in the English version,
7 Bulatovic's words appear on the page that we have on the screen in the
8 first line at the top of the page.
9 A. And let me just tell you that I was never in Herzegovina, not
10 during the war, not before the war.
11 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a document, 1908; transcript page 1047.
12 And on page 1049 --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction: 10.049.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. He asked you a question that I will now read out to you.
16 Reads -- he is actually quoting General Panic.
17 MR. STRINGER: Sorry, counsel. I believe this was led in
18 private session, Your Honour.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, yes, okay. Maybe.
20 JUDGE HALL: So should we go into private session for you to --
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE HALL: -- put the question. Yes.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 10768-10769 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
6 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zivanovic the interpretation was still ongoing
7 from your last question, so I missed the last thing you said.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I can repeat it in open session as well. I just
9 said to Mr. Hadzic that I'll not show him this document that he mentioned
10 because they are already in evidence and they were not subject of the
12 JUDGE HALL: I thought you had said something after that.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no, after that nothing. Yeah, I just said
14 that it is time for a break.
15 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment until tomorrow morning at
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00, to be
18 reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of September,
19 2014, at 9.00 a.m.