140908ED

Page 11049

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I remind you that you are still under oath.

3 Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 WITNESS: VOJISLAV VUKCEVIC [Resumed]

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vukcevic, good morning.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. On Thursday, we left it off with you talking about the

11 negotiations with the HDZ in 1990, in the month of August of that year.

12 The representative of the HDZ was Mr. Vekic.

13 I would now like to show you some proposals that you prepared

14 which were subsequently published in the media.

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D3744. It is 1D3744.

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Tab number, please?

17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Frankly, I don't have tab number.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember this text or, rather, this

19 article on the right-hand side of the screen?

20 A. Of course I remember it because I wrote it myself.

21 Q. As you can remember, there are eight proposals here. You had

22 drafted them on behalf of the SDS. Let's talk about proposal number 1.

23 You say:

24 "We propose that the implementation of a demand reminiscent of

25 Fascist behaviour, by the citizens of Sibenik ..." I am repeating because

Page 11050

1 this has not been recorded. "... to expel or drive out --"

2 A. "... reminiscent of Fascist behaviour ..."

3 Q. "Dr. Raskovic, SDS president; Branko Popovic, SDS general

4 secretary; and Marko Dobrijevic, SDS executive committee member, to be

5 stopped in an appropriate but firm manner, and that the decision

6 terminating their employment because they failed to return on time from

7 their annual leave be annulled."

8 And you also say that it is against common sense to expel

9 somebody out of a city where they live and work and especially if they

10 want to return to the city from which they had been expelled after the

11 annual leave.

12 Finally, you cite the provisions of the constitution which

13 indicate that this decision is against the law.

14 What kind of decision are you talking about? What did the

15 citizens of Sibenik decide? How come that these three people were

16 expelled from that city?

17 A. I can't remember the details of that decision. However, it was a

18 time when a little spark could cause a forest fire which spread really

19 quickly. An atmosphere of intolerance was created. Reasons were being

20 sought to blame people, to accuse them of things, to engage in illegal

21 and bad behaviour. And then, based on that, if things were established

22 to be as they were purported to be - and I'm talking about the

23 accusations against the Serbs - the awareness was created about the Serbs

24 that they were a destructive, evil people who had to be blamed for all

25 the misfortune and hardship of the Croatian people.

Page 11051

1 The three people in question, of whom two were natives of

2 Sibenik, while Professor Jovan Raskovic also spent his entire life in

3 that city, were supposed to be condemned after that.

4 Q. As we are reading this text, we see that you say in it - and this

5 has not been recorded - you say that this had to be prevented in an

6 appropriate and decisive manner. Could you please tell us what you

7 referred to, what you had in mind?

8 A. Well, I wanted people to stop talking, that they should be

9 expelled from the city. I wanted them to start saying that they should

10 stay living in the city where they had lived up to then. As you can see,

11 and as can you read, I am referring to article 259, paragraph 1, of the

12 constitution of the Republic of Croatia, which is a legacy of the

13 civilisation and law contained in all the constitutions of the world.

14 According to that article, the citizens are guaranteed freedom of

15 movement and establishment of residence. I had the right to move and

16 live where I see fit.

17 Q. One more question about that. That demand on behalf of the

18 citizens of Sibenik for the three Serbs in question to be expelled from

19 that city, how was it received among the Serbs, not only in Sibenik but

20 in the general area?

21 A. Those were the first such extreme cases. Obviously they confused

22 every normal person who didn't even have to be a Serb. They couldn't

23 understand how things like that could happen so many years after the

24 Fascist rule had reigned. Obviously the Serbian Democratic Party as an

25 organisation aimed at protecting the interests and positions of the Serbs

Page 11052

1 in Croatia felt to have been put on spot. They felt the need to protect

2 the individuals belonging to their people.

3 Q. One more question about this. Dr. Raskovic, Branko Popovic and

4 Marko Dobrijevic, did they remain living in Sibenik or did they have to

5 leave it?

6 A. They left Sibenik.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. My pleasure.

9 Q. Under 6, you requested that the legality and legitimacy of the

10 Serbian plebiscite should be recognised. What plebiscite are you talking

11 about?

12 A. On Thursday I spoke about the plebiscite and referendum and I

13 emphasised that I had insisted on the referendum not being organised but,

14 rather, that a plebiscite should be organised which was a more democratic

15 form of decision-making. Its aim was to look at all the things that were

16 happening during the turbulent times and to legalize them in a certain

17 way, in a democratic way, to show that it was not a will of a mere few

18 individuals but the will of the entire people, and I mean the Serbian

19 people. You will understand that this was of real interest, and this was

20 the desire of every political factor and every political people in all

21 countries and in all times.

22 Q. What was the question asked at this plebiscite where the Serbian

23 people had to declare themselves?

24 A. The Serbian people declared that they wish and demand, and here I

25 have to draw your attention to the fact that Serbs wanted and were

Page 11053

1 defending a country called Yugoslavia from any attempt, especially the

2 attempts of Croatia and the Croatian new ideology, to eliminate that

3 country --

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Vukcevic, could you please focus on the

5 question Mr. Zivanovic put to you. Mr. Zivanovic asked what the question

6 was in the plebiscite. What question did people have to respond to by a

7 yes or a no?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs wanted cultural autonomy, the

9 use of their language and script in Croatia in the event that Croatia

10 should stay within Yugoslavia. If Croatia were to separate from

11 Yugoslavia --

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Vukcevic, do you remember what the question

13 was in the plebiscite? Was it one question? Were there many questions?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there were two questions.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what were the two questions, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you wish culture autonomy if

17 Croatia remains within Yugoslavia? And if Croatia should secede, do you

18 want political autonomy?

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. At this plebiscite, was the question ever asked whether, in the

22 event Croatia should secede, Serbs wished to stay within Yugoslavia?

23 A. Did Serbs want to remain within Yugoslavia? We didn't ask that

24 question, but we knew they wanted that.

25 Q. In item 7, you asked for elections that would enable the Serbian

Page 11054

1 people to independently propose and elect their own representatives

2 within the Croatian parliament.

3 Was this proposal accepted?

4 A. None of the proposals that are before you was accepted, and none

5 of them was given due consideration. It is curious that this particular

6 proposal you mentioned under number 7 was decided upon in the way that I

7 proposed only ten years later, when Croatia adopted the Law on the

8 National List. There was the state list that you receive in the ballot

9 box, and you receive the national list, exactly as I proposed and

10 demanded, to choose from the national list the person you want to

11 represent you.

12 Q. Can you tell us, do you know a person known as Borivoje Savic?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. When you spoke about these proposals and at the negotiations with

15 Mr. Vekic, was Borivoje Savic the one who decided that these negotiations

16 should be conducted?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did Borivoje Savic perhaps prepare you for these talks and how

19 you should engage in them?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did he send you to Dr. Raskovic in Sibenik for consultations,

22 maybe?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you a member of the Main Board of the SDS?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11055

1 Q. Were you a member of the Main Board ex officio because you said

2 you were the president of the Municipal Board of the SDS for Baranja?

3 A. For the province, yes, ex officio, I was.

4 Q. Was Goran Hadzic a member of that Main Board?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Could you briefly tell us if you attended the meeting of the

7 Main Board of the SDS in Lapac in February 1992; and, if you did, tell us

8 what happened there.

9 A. We met there so that the highest officials of the party could

10 state their position as to whether we were going to follow the course

11 charted by Milosevic for us, through his representatives, or we were

12 going to show that we were aware we were living in a different area in

13 which we were not alone.

14 Milan Babic was in the faction that was spurred on by Milosevic,

15 but the number of people opposed to him, opposed to that faction, was

16 constantly growing. We voted on that occasion, and Milan Babic, with

17 several of his faithful followers, lost this vote. He was defeated. He

18 was defeated by the Serbs, and it really happened the way I'm telling

19 you.

20 If you allow me to explain it a little more. Those who defeated

21 Milan Babic and his faction were the Serbs who wanted to peacefully

22 co-exist with Croats and who believed that it was possible.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender the document on the

24 screen. It is 1D2401.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I do not object to the

Page 11056

1 admissibility of the proposals. However, this is published in a

2 newspaper article and we have a -- I believe what is the original on

3 tab 3 of the Prosecution list. I will also be using it in

4 cross-examination. I'm wondering, in order to avoid duplication, whether

5 it would make sense to have the original. And perhaps if my learned

6 friend wishes to do so, he can display it on the screen now to ensure

7 that Mr. Vukcevic agrees that this is the proposals he made. The 65 ter

8 is 6576 -- yes.

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I noticed this document on the Prosecution

10 list, and it is absolutely the same as the document published in this

11 article, newspaper article. I don't object if this document would be

12 tendered instead of the one that we see on the screen.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's admit the original then.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit --

15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If it was original, I'm not very -- if it was

16 original.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's see it on the screen, please.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the photograph from the

19 cover page.

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We need to go to page 2. This is not it.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't see the other pages because the proposal

22 had the eight items.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we have the next page, please.

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Seven, eight.

Page 11057

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Does it -- however, I would ask just two pages of

2 this document to be admitted because the first page is not -- is not the

3 proposals of Mr. Vukcevic. And in that case, I would -- if not, I would

4 ask the tendering of this document that I used for cross -- for the

5 direct examination of Mr. Vukcevic.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We can remove the first page, Your Honours, and

7 solve this during the break with Mr. Zivanovic.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, let's do that. So you'll come back to us.

9 Okay, Mr. Zivanovic?

10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay. Yes, yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Vukcevic, at this meeting in Donji Lapac, did Goran Hadzic

14 also attend?

15 A. I believe so.

16 Q. Can you remember what he voted for, what he favoured?

17 A. Goran Hadzic was always in favour of peacefully co-existing with

18 the Croats, avoiding conflict, preferring negotiations and talks and

19 agreement.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D3745.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you give us a tab number, please,

22 Mr. Zivanovic.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just a moment, sorry. It is tab 11.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11058

1 Q. You probably remember this article on the screen, the newspaper

2 articling titled: "Who Shot" -- "Who Fired at the House of V.

3 Vukcevic."

4 Is it about your house?

5 A. Yes, it is about my house. I am the one whose house was fired

6 at.

7 Q. In the subheading, we see that, according to the unofficial

8 version, it was discontented members of the SDS who fired at the house.

9 Can you tell us something about it?

10 A. From the early days of the Serbian movement in Croatia, there

11 were two factions: One that wanted a humane and proper agreement with

12 majority people, the Croatian people; and another faction that stood in

13 its way. This second faction was supported by people close to Milosevic.

14 This brave Serb who, in the small hours, parked his car outside

15 my house and fired through the window at a room upstairs was from the

16 ranks of this second faction, and the immediate reason for that was

17 precisely the meeting in Donji Lapac, where Milan Babic and his faction,

18 the faction that he led and spoke for, was defeated. And the people who

19 were in the car with the shooter knew that I belonged to the other side

20 and that I advocated negotiations and talks with Croatia. So to punish

21 me for that, they fired at my house.

22 That night the telephone rang, and my wife answered and a voice

23 said, "This time we fired at your house. The next time we will fire at

24 your head." I was still not at home that night. I was not able to drive

25 because of bad weather, and I stayed that night at the hotel, but the

Page 11059

1 next day when I came home, I heard what had happened.

2 Q. If I understood you correctly, this happened immediately after

3 the meeting in Donji Lapac.

4 A. Yes, it happened the night after the meeting, because the news

5 that the faction of Milan Babic was defeated and that the people around

6 him, the people who were representing that option, were losing their

7 positions and losing their importance came after the meeting, and they

8 wanted to remain important.

9 Q. Do you remember and did you attend the meeting of the Main Board

10 of the SDS in Obrovac in March 1992?

11 A. It was a meeting of the Executive Board of the SDS. Yes, I

12 attended that meeting. It was the Saturday of the Catholic Easter 1991.

13 Q. Do you remember that just after that Borivoje Savic and

14 Goran Hadzic were arrested at Plitvice?

15 A. Certainly. We left the meeting in small groups or one by one,

16 and so Boro Savic, Goran Hadzic and I found ourselves in the street

17 together. They were close friends of mine and I invited them to come to

18 Beograd on the sea and spend that night at my apartment to rest before

19 the trip that was ahead of us. However, they said they couldn't because

20 the next morning they had to be in Vukovar; they already had commitments.

21 So I remember very well every detail about that date.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender the document from

23 the screen into evidence. Sorry, I'll repeat. I would tender the

24 document from the screen into evidence.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

Page 11060

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D183, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D3746. It is tab 12. Would

4 you move the original text to the left. Yes.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vukcevic, you will see here a newspaper

6 story from Politika of 31 April 1991 speaking about the situation in

7 Borovo Selo. It was a time when Savic and Hadzic were in prison. I had

8 not ask you about it, but I want you to look at the box on the right-hand

9 side where it says, "Vukcevic may not represent us." You will see it now

10 enlarged on the screen so you can read it.

11 A. Yes, I see it, and I have it in my collection of documents. Yes.

12 What is your question?

13 Q. My question is: Are you aware that, on the 1st of April or

14 perhaps the day before, on the 31st of March, such a decision was made

15 that you may not be a representative?

16 A. I learned about it from the newspapers, like everyone else. Of

17 course, that decision was not possible. It was impossible to make that

18 decision there. There was a body above the body indicated on the screen

19 that had decided that I would be the only authorised representative of

20 the Serbian community with the Croatian Democratic Union and only the

21 Executive Board could repeal that decision. Certainly a local body could

22 not repeal it. And what we see here is a local body.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, I would tender this document into

24 evidence.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

Page 11061

1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D184, Your Honours.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You were in Beli Manastir at the time when the armed conflict in

4 Croatia had already begun. Can you tell us if the municipality of

5 Beli Manastir had taken any steps to prevent this conflict? Tell us

6 briefly and then we will look at a document.

7 A. Beli Manastir is a relatively small place, small town. It has

8 the status of a town in a part of Croatia which historically is a

9 province called Baranja. The population is made up of three communities:

10 Serbs, Croats, and Hungarians. There was a fourth group that declared

11 themselves as Yugoslav. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they were not

12 recognised after the time we are discussing as Yugoslavs. They were

13 required to declare themselves as Serbs, Croat, or Hungarians.

14 None of this was accepted. People were very distrustful, had a

15 lot of misgivings. The parliament was elected from all the three, or,

16 let's say, four communities, including the Yugoslavs, and every

17 representative wrote his ethnicity next to his name. There was a total

18 of 250 of them. That parliament, such as it was, adopted a decision to

19 oppose any change of border, any change at all, in the territory of

20 Yugoslavia, a decision that Baranja was part of Yugoslavia and would

21 remain so and would oppose any change. That is the environment in which

22 I lived.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D --

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. Your Honours, I'm looking at the

25 65 ter summary provided for Dr. Vukcevic, and this subject and this line

Page 11062

1 of question is not included at all, nor is it included in the 92 ter

2 statement. So, on that basis, we have no notice that any questions are

3 expected in relation to the situation in Beli Manastir or any measures to

4 prevent the conflict.

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct. However, during the proofing

6 with Mr. Vukcevic, I got one document - it is a one-page document - about

7 the situation in Beli Manastir on 3rd of July, 1991, and the decisions of

8 the municipal assembly related to the situation. I informed the

9 Prosecution in the form of proofing notes about this document and my

10 intention to use this document. I put it both on our amended Rule 65 ter

11 list and the document was on our Defence list for this witness.

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I inquire: Are the questions going to be

13 limited to this one document?

14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In that case then, I withdrew my objection,

16 Your Honours.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D3747. It is tab 13.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vukcevic, I believe that you have that text

20 in front of you.

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Let's first look at the text on the left-hand side of the screen

23 or, rather, the first column in the B/C/S text headed, "Conclusion." I'm

24 interested in the second sentence which reads:

25 "Fear and distrust have led to the emigration of children, women,

Page 11063

1 even whole families, and almost every village is organising some sort of

2 self-defence."

3 Did you find it? In the first paragraph under "Conclusion"?

4 A. No, I can't find it.

5 Q. The second sentence --

6 A. Yes, now I've got it, "Fear and distrust," yes.

7 Q. My question is this: When it comes to this sentence, does it

8 faithfully reflect the situation in Baranja at that time?

9 A. Well, look, the sentiment changed from one village to the next,

10 from one environment to the next. In one village, there were people who

11 really did move out, and in another village, there were people who

12 prevented such behaviour and they were saying that there was no need to

13 move out because nothing would happen to anybody.

14 In any case, the general sentiment and the general state of

15 affairs was that of sickness of abnormality and one would say that it

16 sooner reflected this. I repeat: There were 250 members of the local

17 parliament, including members of all the peoples.

18 Q. And now let's look at the second paragraph and read the last

19 sentence in it.

20 A. Yes, I understand.

21 Q. The last sentence which reads:

22 "Unlike the earlier assembly structure, the present composition

23 of the assembly has no powers over the MUP, the judiciary, the

24 prosecutor's office ... "

25 A. "The health care, the secondary education," et cetera?

Page 11064

1 Q. Yes. I would like to invite your comment on just one thing.

2 What does this mean? What does it mean that the present composition has

3 no powers over the MUP and the judiciary?

4 A. I should use a few words. I don't know whether I may be allowed

5 to use a lot of words. The election in Croatia was in 1992 and the

6 document was drafted in 1991. As soon as they took power, the HDZ and

7 its representatives, they instilled changes in the organisation of

8 powers.

9 Up to then I was the president of the court in Beli Manastir.

10 And up to then, us judges and the president of the court were either

11 elected or appointed or nominated by the local parliament. As of

12 April 1990 that practice stopped. The state took over in order to be

13 able to control the election of people into various positions, and so on

14 and so forth.

15 In the space of just one year, from April 1990 to July 1991, when

16 this conclusion was issued, many changes had taken place. However,

17 despite that, among the people, there was still the awareness, the desire

18 and the need to live together. That is a fact. There's no two ways

19 about it.

20 Q. Mr. Vukcevic, I would also kindly ask you to look at the other

21 document on the same page, and this is the amendments to the resolution

22 on the peaceful co-existence of the citizens of Baranja.

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move to next page of the English

24 translation, please.

25 Q. [Interpretation] You've told us that the municipal assembly of

Page 11065

1 Baranja made the decision that the borders should not be changed. Could

2 you please look at the text of the document --

3 A. Of course.

4 Q. -- and can you tell us whether this was the document that

5 established that the borders shouldn't be changed, as you have just told

6 us.

7 A. Well, you have to understand that I have to go back to the fact

8 that this was a decision issued by the local parliament and that the

9 local parliament had been elected directly by all those who had the right

10 to vote, and that the local parliament encompassed representatives of all

11 the three peoples. Even a year into the HDZ rule in Croatia, they still

12 managed to decide that the borders shouldn't be changed, that Baranja

13 should be part of Croatia and that Croatia should be part of Yugoslavia

14 and that they didn't want those facts and that community to be altered in

15 any way.

16 Q. At that time on the eve of the clashes and during the clashes,

17 you had plenty of opportunities to listen to the statements given by the

18 politicians on both sides. We've also had opportunities to hear verbal

19 threats addressed at each other.

20 First of all, tell us whether such statements were typical of

21 only one side, or the other side, or of both sides?

22 A. It was a time when people behaved aggressively. Their conscience

23 was distorted. It was a crazy time. One didn't know whether you would

24 wake up in the morning, having gone to bed the previous night. Both

25 sides, unfortunately, were equally mad. The less numerous ones that I

Page 11066

1 belonged to tried and fought hard to adhere to the form of consciousness

2 that had existed and persisted from the end of the Second World War, and

3 that was the awareness of the importance of a community; whereas, those

4 who were more numerous were very, very aggressive. It was painful. You

5 can't even begin to understand how terrible that was.

6 Q. You communicated with Goran Hadzic. How well did you know him?

7 What did you think of him and his behaviour under the circumstances?

8 A. We met quite often. We often travelled together. Whenever we

9 went to the meeting of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party,

10 which usually took place in Knin, and that was 650 kilometres away from

11 the cities where we lived. We travelled together, and during such long

12 journeys we talked about all sorts of things.

13 I know Goran's family. I know where he was born, his social

14 environment, where he grew up. It was a very tame environment, a very

15 regular family, and nobody who hailed from that family could even have

16 dirty shoes, let alone something bad on his mind. There was a lot of

17 order in that family, so there could be nothing disorderly about anybody

18 who hailed from such a family. He was well nurtured. He was well fed,

19 well clothed. He had everything that he needed in life. He could not be

20 spiteful, he could not be evil, he could not be a bad man.

21 Q. Mr. Vukcevic, just one more question for you. You said that

22 there was a stream that strongly advocated co-existence with Croats and

23 there was another stream which -- where would you classify Goran Hadzic?

24 A. I would certainly put him among those of us who wanted to live

25 together with the others.

Page 11067

1 Q. And now, after all the developments, in hindsight, that desire

2 for Croats and Serbs to live together in Croatia, has that materialised?

3 A. It is very hard to talk about other people's opinions about other

4 people's fortunes or misfortunes. Everyone can speak for themselves.

5 However, from what one hears and from what one knows, things as they are

6 now are a far cry from what they used to be before.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vukcevic. I have no further questions for you.

8 A. You're welcome.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. Before I begin my

12 cross-examination, the document that we were exchanging about earlier has

13 been altered in order to be admitted now. It's 65 ter 6576 if we want

14 have it displayed just for Mr. Zivanovic's assurance.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, please.

16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, Your Honour. It seems that I did not

17 ask the tendering of the last document and I would do it now, and

18 apologise.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: If there's no objection.

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No objection, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Is it 1D3747?

23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is document 3747, 1D.

Page 11068

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, thank you. Exhibit D185.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Maybe we'll deal with that document with

4 Mr. Zivanovic during the break to save court time.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vukcevic.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. We haven't met before. My name is Alex Demirdjian, and I will

11 have some questions for you this morning on behalf of the Prosecution.

12 And if at any time my questions are not clear, please don't hesitate to

13 ask me for clarification.

14 Let me begin with where you just left off with respect to

15 Mr. Hadzic. In your statement you stated that: "Until I left the SDS in

16 April 1991, Goran Hadzic was in the moderate wing of the SDS."

17 Are you suggesting that this changed after April of 1991?

18 A. In April, the decision was made which denied me the right to

19 represent the Serbian people in Croatia. It was a very aggressive and a

20 not-well-thought-through decision made by certain individuals, but it was

21 a watershed for counting the time before and after.

22 I don't know if I made myself clear. On the 1st of April, that

23 is, a decision was made to deprive me of that right, and they did it

24 because they knew that I was a peace-loving person and that I could not

25 represent their aggressive behaviour and their aggressive positions. In

Page 11069

1 that case, the period up to the 1st of April is one kind of time, and

2 after that, another kind of time.

3 I don't know if I'm making myself clear and why I am defining the

4 1st April as a certain watershed.

5 Q. I understand where are you going but it doesn't answer my

6 question with respect to Mr. Hadzic specifically. Are you suggesting

7 that after the 1st of April, his views changed?

8 A. His views did not change because his views were different up to

9 the 1st of April. His opinions never changed, at least this is what I

10 could conclude from my conversations with him. Therefore, he could not

11 change. He always remained the same. He was always a well-meaning and

12 peace-loving person.

13 Q. So why does it say in your statement "until the 1st of April, he

14 was in the moderate wing"?

15 A. We defined the 1st of April as the day that I've just spoken

16 about. Maybe the story about that event in temporal terms is something

17 that was imposed on me, i.e., to start thinking about the time before the

18 1st of April and after the 1st of April. In the heads of the people who

19 didn't change, including his head, means that he couldn't change. He was

20 always the same, always equally well-meaning, always equally

21 peace-loving.

22 Q. Okay. I'll come back to this topic a little bit later but I

23 would like to ask you to place your mind back to June 1990 when you

24 joined the SDS. Is it correct to say that at the time you were a

25 professor of law at the faculty in Osijek, at the law faculty?

Page 11070

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And would it be fair to say that you were one of the founding

3 members of the SDS in the Slavonia Baranja region?

4 A. A found -- a founder. I did found it.

5 Q. And at the time you had the trust of the party's leader,

6 Dr. Jovan Raskovic; is that right?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And as a trusted member of the SDS, you were allowed to meet with

9 members of the Croatian government led by the HDZ in Zagreb. We saw a

10 document earlier about that; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, but it was only after a decision was made and after I got

12 the green light from the highest body of the Serbian Democratic Party.

13 Q. Yes. Now, as a trusted member of the SDS, did you feel that as a

14 representative of the Serb people you had very large responsibilities on

15 your shoulders in dealing with the Croatian government?

16 A. Of course. Of course.

17 Q. And these meetings you had with the Croatian government were

18 reported in the press, weren't they?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. I'd like to show you a document before we go on break. It's 65

21 ter 6576.1, at tab 3, please. You will see it appear on your screen in a

22 moment.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And this is an article which was published in Vijesti, if that

25 the name of the newspaper --

Page 11071

1 A. It is actually Vjesnik. It was a Croatian daily at the time.

2 Vjesnik.

3 Q. Now, do you recognise at least the three individuals we see on

4 this picture?

5 A. I recognise them, of course. I'm the first on the left without

6 hair. Next to me, Boro Savic. And, on the right, Ivan Vekic. The last

7 was the representative of the Croatian Democratic Union.

8 Q. Okay. Now, were you familiar with Mr. Vekic?

9 A. I apologise, I need to tell you this. Mr. Vekic was born in the

10 same year as myself. Mr. Vekic and I attended the same grammar school in

11 Osijek. He was in one class, I was in another class, for five years from

12 grade 4 to grade 8. And obviously when we sat at the table and started

13 talking, Vekic started by saying, "Gentlemen, Vojo," - that's me - "and I

14 were classmates." We cannot address each other in second person

15 singular. For a number of years we were -- we have been on first-name

16 terms. Don't think that if we continue addressing each other that way

17 that we are both corrupt. In other words, I know him perfectly well.

18 Q. Very well. And the other individual here is Mr. Savic.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Oh, I apologise.

20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I just noted one error in the transcript.

21 It is in line 8, page 24. It is "in second person singular." I think

22 that is should be "second person plural."

23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yeah, that's correct.

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Noted.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's noted.

Page 11072

1 Q. And very quickly before the break, the other person we see on the

2 screen is Mr. Savic. This is the man that you called an altar boy on

3 Thursday?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, I don't know whether the connotation is the same in the

6 Serbian language, but labelling someone an altar boy is not necessarily

7 casting someone in a positive light. Is that the same in the Serbian

8 language?

9 A. Well, those who come from mixed environments know what the

10 meaning of the altar boy is. Those serve in church. Mr. Raskovic told

11 me, "Don't go on your own to talk to the HDZ. Don't go on your own

12 because unpleasant things can happen to you like they did to me when I

13 had spoken to Tudjman. Takes one of our men with you and choose whoever

14 you want." That's how I chose Boro Savic.

15 Q. We'll continue this after the break. And when we come back, I'd

16 ask you to focus on your answers because you did tell us that during your

17 examination-in-chief. So to make sure that we can finish as quickly as

18 we can, just give me directly the answer. We will carry on after the

19 break.

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I believe this is an appropriate

21 time.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian. Court adjourned.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

Page 11073

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, please.

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 [The witness takes the stand]

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, please proceed.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Mr. Vukcevic, let me pick up where we left off. Again, we still

7 have the picture on the screen. I was asking you whether this term you

8 used with respect to Mr. Savic had a pejorative connotation. Were you in

9 [Realtime transcript read in error "contact"] conflict with this man,

10 Savic?

11 A. Never, never.

12 Q. And perhaps just to answer my question on that point. Is the

13 term "altar boy" in the way that you used it meant to be pejorative?

14 A. No, no. It was not pejorative. I don't mean to denigrate his

15 role or to underestimate it. He had an important role because he was

16 providing me with moral support, and I felt better in the company of the

17 person whom I chose than without him.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, you see in line 3, page 26, I don't

19 know whether the witness -- the Prosecution used the word "contact".

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Conflict. "Conflict" was the word.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

23 Q. Very well. Now, is it correct to say that the newspaper article

24 we see on the screen was issued, was it, the day after the talks you held

25 with Mr. Vekic?

Page 11074

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Very well.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I would tender this newspaper

4 article.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3246, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

9 Q. Now, during this meeting on the 30th of August, you submitted a

10 number of proposals and we saw them earlier this morning. I'd like you

11 to take a look at these proposals. The version we have is 65 ter 6576.

12 It's at tab 3 of the Prosecution's list.

13 Now, this morning I used the word "original." Perhaps you can

14 help the Trial Chamber understand. What is this version that we have on

15 the screen here?

16 A. On the left is the text that I typed on a typewriter, an Olympia.

17 I used my private mechanical typewriter.

18 Q. Can I take you down to item number 3. Here you're denouncing the

19 use of certain terms such as rebels, highwaymen, Chetniks and other

20 abusive terms when referring to Serbian people. Do you see that part?

21 A. I see it in the newspaper article, but I also know it from the

22 text on the left-hand side of the screen.

23 Q. So it would be appropriate to say that you were not in favour of

24 the use of such terms at the time that you typed this document.

25 A. Correct. You are right.

Page 11075

1 Q. And would it be fair to say that you advocated against the use of

2 such terms against all people, of all ethnicities?

3 A. Absolutely, absolutely. It was not a time when brigands or

4 highway robbers were coming in force, nor were we such people.

5 Q. Well, for example, one term that was quite in fashion at the time

6 was the use of the word "Ustasha," wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And how did you feel about the use of that term?

9 A. Ustasha was a term used for the Croatian people. I could not

10 feel offended by it myself, except that I found it ugly, no matter who

11 was using it.

12 Q. You say that the term was used for the Croatian people. In

13 general?

14 A. It is pejorative, offensive, negative.

15 Q. And now I'd like to take you to item 4, which I believe might be

16 on the next page in both Serbian and English. Yes, at the top of the

17 page. And here you write that:

18 "We propose that the use of the term 'armed rebellion' be stopped

19 because the gathering of armed individuals is organised with the aim of

20 self-defence and self-protection and thus does not constitute an armed

21 rebellion ..."

22 The question I have for you is here which gathering of armed

23 individuals were you referring to? And this is August 1990.

24 A. Those were already days and events that brought unrest among the

25 Serbian people because they were informed and it really happened that the

Page 11076

1 Croats, through their special forces which already existed, including the

2 Home Guards Corps, and they had weapons that been imported already in

3 1990 and these weapons found their way to irresponsible people, the Serbs

4 believed that such people would be prepared to attack them using those

5 weapons so they got ready to defend themselves.

6 I sent a telegram to the chief of the General Staff of the

7 Yugoslav People's Army, asking that the parts of the Serbian people who

8 were considered as the reserve force of the JNA - because all of us were

9 reservists of the JNA - should have uniforms and weapons distributed to

10 them because we shouldn't worry ourselves how to get hold of weapons.

11 And thus equipped with regular uniforms of the reservists of the JNA and

12 with weapons received from the army, they would be able to defend

13 themselves, if necessary. And it was necessary in certain communities

14 where certain forms of violence were already happening.

15 Was I clear enough?

16 Q. Yes, but you mentioned a telegram to the General Staff of the

17 JNA. Do you remember when you sent that telegraph -- telegram?

18 A. I can't remember exactly, but that was a time when the first

19 serious unrest began. I'm sorry, I can't remember the time. I thought

20 it was legal. In my eyes, it was legal because we were the reserve

21 force. We were in the reserve of a regular army.

22 Q. In any event, this would have been before you wrote this letter,

23 the telegram that you sent?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 11077

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Before I move on, Your Honours, this the

2 document that we were discussing with Mr. Zivanovic. We could tender it

3 at this time. 65 ter 6576.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3247, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

8 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, you were mentioning that leadership of the SDS,

9 some members at least of the SDS, were in favour of talks and

10 negotiations. Would it be correct to say that however this position may

11 have been, there were elements at least in Krajina which were beginning

12 to establish self-rule in areas inhabited predominantly by Serbs? And in

13 terms of time-frame I'm talking as early as June of 1990. Would that be

14 right?

15 A. I don't have such information, especially as far as June 1991 was

16 concerned. I don't know.

17 Q. Are you familiar with the establishment of the Community of

18 Municipalities of Northern Dalmatia and Lika on the 27th of June, 1990,

19 by Mr. Milan Babic?

20 A. I remember that.

21 Q. And were you familiar with the 25th of July, 1990 declaration on

22 sovereignty and autonomy of the Serb people in Croatia which is also

23 authored by Mr. Babic?

24 A. I knew that the declaration had been adopted. It was on the 25th

25 of July in a place called Srb, in Lika. It was a large gathering of

Page 11078

1 Serbs, but I was indisposed at that time. I could not attend.

2 Q. Are these the first steps towards self-governance by the Serbian

3 people within the Republic of Croatia, at least as far as the Krajina

4 area is concerned?

5 A. I can't say what the people who were doing it were thinking

6 because I didn't speak to them. But thinking about this event and

7 looking back, I believe those were the first attempts at self-governance.

8 Q. And through your interactions with the representatives of the HDZ

9 and the Republic of Croatia, were you aware of how they received such

10 initiatives or how they reacted to them?

11 A. They received them with a lack of understanding and with serious

12 objections that what was going on was not good and they didn't support

13 it. They wanted themselves to create a legal framework for our activity.

14 They wanted a legal framework of their own design. I don't know what

15 that legal framework was to be, but the Serbs were very offended that

16 they had been deleted from the constitution, that they were no longer a

17 constituent people in Croatia, whereas they had contributed to the

18 creation of Croatia as an anti-Fascist state. It was a great insult to

19 the Serb people and threat to their existence.

20 Q. When you say "threat to their existence," would you agree with me

21 that looking at the constitution of 1990, putting aside the fact that

22 Serbs were removed as a constituent people, the rights of minorities were

23 preserved in the constitution. Would you agree with that?

24 A. I couldn't agree with that. They recognise Italians, Hungarians,

25 Ruthenians, Slovaks, as minorities but not the Serbs. Even today when

Page 11079

1 you drive through Croatia, you will not see a single sign in Cyrillic.

2 And those Cyrillic signs that existed had been removed but there are

3 signs in all the other languages. So you could say that minorities have

4 rights, but why don't Serbs have any?

5 Q. Sir, I wasn't going to delve into this, but I have the

6 constitution before me and Serbs are listed as minorities. I can display

7 it for you, if you wish. But are you saying, just so I understand your

8 answer, are you saying that Serbs were not listed as minorities in the

9 constitution or did I misunderstand you?

10 A. I know. I know. The way in which they were introduced as a

11 minority and the way in which they are referred to in the constitution of

12 1990 is not remotely similar to the way they were referred to before.

13 You get the impression that in this union of peoples, the Serbs already

14 have their place but it's wrong. I know what sovereignty means.

15 Sovereignty is a legal term for violence. If you are not sovereign, you

16 cannot decide your own fate in the same way as when you have sovereignty.

17 Q. Let me move on to a slightly different topic because earlier you

18 mentioned that you sent this letter to the General Staff with respect to

19 the arming of the reservists. Is it correct to say that in the fall or

20 autumn of 1990, the SDS leadership from Croatia was seeking support from

21 the SFRY Presidency?

22 A. I, too, was at that meeting with the Presidency of the SFRY when

23 Borisav Jovic was the president of that Presidency. We were invited and

24 we came there to describe the situation on the ground and the sentiment,

25 the prevailing sentiment among our people. Depending on the speaker and

Page 11080

1 their education, the descriptions varied, but all of them spoke about the

2 fear from the new state and they had in common the desire to preserve

3 Yugoslavia.

4 Borisav Jovic, who was president of the Presidency, did not make

5 any promises, did not say anything was black or white. He just listened

6 and listened, and I don't know what he conveyed to others of our

7 proposals. All I know is that the state of emergency was not imposed and

8 one member of the Presidency who was to vote for it did not vote for it,

9 and he was a Serb from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. Let's take this one by one. You said: "I, too, was at that

11 meeting."

12 Just to clarify it for the Trial Chamber, when did this meeting

13 take place?

14 A. I think it was September 1990. I don't know the date.

15 Q. And you wrote -- you said here that "the Presidency invited us."

16 Who was invited to attend this meeting?

17 A. Prominent activists of the Serbian movement from Croatia. Better

18 known individuals from all over Croatia, from Vukovar to Dalmatia.

19 Q. Before I go on, I see here that your first answer at page 32,

20 line 5, reads "At that meeting with the Presidency of SFRY when

21 Borivoje Savic was the president," I think it's the name "Borisav Jovic"

22 which was said.

23 A. Borisav Jovic.

24 Q. Very well. And could you tell us some of the names of these

25 prominent activists who were present at this meeting.

Page 11081

1 A. Veljko Dzakula. Several people from Knin; I can't remember the

2 names. I don't want to enumerate them now because my memory has faded,

3 and my head is full of new people and new memories that pushed out the

4 old one ones.

5 Q. Was Mr. Dusan Vjestica present?

6 A. Yes, he was there.

7 Q. And was Mr. Goran Hadzic present?

8 A. I think so.

9 Q. You're not entirely sure?

10 A. No, certainly not.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we quickly display 65 ter 6577, at tab 5

12 in the Prosecution's list. And for the purposes of the version in B/C/S,

13 could we zoom in to the top left-hand corner. Thank you very much.

14 Q. Now, this is the 4th of October, 1990, a newspaper article

15 called, "Which Serbs Went To See Jovic." And you see all the names

16 listed there. Does that refresh your memory a little of who else

17 attended this meeting?

18 A. I believe, and I remember now when I see the names, that these

19 people whose names were published in the newspaper were there.

20 Q. And can you just maybe clarify for us. Earlier you said that you

21 were invited by the SFRY president, Mr. Jovic. How did this invitation

22 come across? Was it first initiated by yourself or did Mr. Jovic invite

23 this delegation on his own initiative?

24 A. The initiative was not mine. That's all I know. I don't know

25 whom Jovic invited. I was invited by my friends and acquaintances who,

Page 11082

1 at that time, lived in Belgrade. I don't know the other details.

2 Q. Very well.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this exhibit.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3248, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

8 Q. Now, Dr. Vukcevic, this was not the first --

9 A. Vukcevic.

10 Q. I believe that's what I said but never mind.

11 A. You said "Vuckovic."

12 Q. Very well. I apologise if I did.

13 Now, Dr. Vukcevic, would you agree that this was not the first

14 contact made with Mr. Jovic, with Mr. Borisav Jovic, at the time by Serbs

15 in Croatia, or the Serb leadership in Croatia?

16 A. If there were any contacts, I don't know anything about them.

17 Nobody ever told me about them. Nobody ever invited me to be present

18 either.

19 Q. Did you attend any meetings of the Serbian National Council from

20 Knin during the summer of 1990?

21 A. No, I didn't attend any meetings because I was not a member of

22 the Serbian National Council. They were very selfish. They were a very

23 closed group. They hid from the others, from the other members, as far

24 as I can remember, if my memory serves me well.

25 Q. I'd like to show you a document, which is minutes of this Serbian

Page 11083

1 National Council. It's Exhibit P1195, at tab 1 of the Prosecution's

2 list.

3 Now, what you will see on the screen --

4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And could we go to page 2 for both documents,

5 please. Yes.

6 Q. It might be a bit of a challenge for you because these are

7 handwritten notes, but I'll ask you to make a bit of an effort, if I may.

8 The header says here "Minutes" and from the 2nd session of the

9 Serbian National Council, held on the 16th of August, 1990 in Dvor na

10 Uni. Item 1, are you able to see item number 1 which starts with:

11 "Milan Babic submitted a report ..."?

12 A. I can see that there are letters on the screen, but not very

13 legible. I can't read anything. Now I can, I think.

14 Q. The sentence that I'm looking at in English reads: "Milan Babic

15 submitted a report about the talks with Borisav Jovic held by Babic with

16 Raskovic and Bogoljub Popovic ..."

17 Do you see that sentence? Do you see the sentence, Dr. Vukcevic?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And one sentence -- we skip one sentence here. The next sentence

20 begins with:

21 "Jovic gave support to all political battles for the rights of

22 the people and that the referendum be led under the legal regulations and

23 that the army will support and protect the political battle of the

24 Serbian people."

25 Do you also see that sentence?

Page 11084

1 A. Yes, I can see it.

2 Q. Were you aware of this position by Borisav Jovic with respect to

3 the support to the Serbian people in Croatia?

4 A. This is the first time I hear that Borisav Jovic said something

5 of that kind. When I met with him and when I was with the group of

6 people that we mentioned a while ago, he didn't say that.

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we go to the next page in both English and

8 B/C/S, and could we scroll down to item number 4. Actually, in B/C/S,

9 it's the very next page. Yes, could we zoom in to item number 4, in the

10 middle of the page.

11 Q. Now, here the translation that I have says --

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm sorry, Mr. Demirdjian --

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Sorry.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- turn over the page in English as well?

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Actually, it's the very bottom of that page,

16 Your Honour --

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: I see that.

18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm sorry, I apologise, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, okay. It's only that one sentence. Sorry.

20 We can go back to the previous page.

21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

22 Q. Now, item number 4, as it is translated in English here, says:

23 "Legal council. The president of the legal council - Vukcevic,

24 unanimous."

25 Do you have any idea as to what this refers to?

Page 11085

1 A. There were not many renowned legal professionals, especially

2 full-time university professors but me in the ranks of the Serbian

3 movement. And when I was chosen and elected and I was barely aware of

4 that - I'm trying very hard to remember the whole thing - they tried to

5 give me more significance to that position. Although I was in charge of

6 the plebiscite which took place on the 19th of August, this was as much

7 as I did as the president of the legal council. That was my only role,

8 the only significant role that I had in the whole matter.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. And if we turn to page 6 in the

10 English version and the next page in the B/C/S version, please.

11 Q. This is a list of those people who were present at this meeting

12 of the Serbian National Council. And under number 16, we read:

13 "Vukcevic Vojislav, MD, from Beli Manastir."

14 Does that refresh your memory that you were present at this

15 meeting?

16 A. I was at several meetings in Knin. I can't remember whether this

17 was a meeting of the Main Board or whether that was the meeting that is

18 mentioned here. I really can't remember. It was a long time ago, first

19 of all; and second of all, as I've already told you, I went there on

20 several occasions.

21 Q. Now, earlier when I showed you the newspaper article which was

22 entitled, "Who Went To See Jovic," you said that at the time Mr. Jovic

23 did not react much. Would you agree that with time Belgrade did support

24 the activities of Serbs in Croatia?

25 A. Yes, I would agree with that. Belgrade thought that it was their

Page 11086

1 duty for national reasons because we did not have another state. We did

2 not have any other assistance and help by any other Serbs but the Serbs

3 who were in Belgrade. And they thought and felt invited to help us when

4 they start feeling that way. I can give you an example when the Serbs

5 from Belgrade did not help the Croatian Serbs the way that they expected,

6 and that was on the 3rd of March, 1991, when Dzakula started a rebellion

7 in Pakrac.

8 Q. Would you agree that eventually Belgrade started exerting

9 pressure on some members of the SDS in your region?

10 A. Belgrade sent its commissioners and envoys to place under their

11 control the Serbian people who had gathered and rallied in that way. The

12 trouble with that was that those envoys and commissioners usually found

13 and selected bad people, bad Serbs, and they failed in achieving what

14 they had set out to achieve with the help of such bad people.

15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, just one moment.

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, sorry, Mr. Prosecutor.

18 Out of the list that is on the screen, I would like to know

19 whether number 16 -- well, we can see number 16, "Vukcevic Vojislav, MD."

20 Is it the same person as the witness? And what does "MD" mean?

21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is me but I'm not a physician.

23 I'm not an MD.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

25 Q. And you don't have any idea as to why the letters MD are

Page 11087

1 indicated there?

2 A. I don't. No, I don't.

3 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Okay. So this is a mistake. It

4 is a mistake. Thank you.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will clarify this

6 with the witness because I think that there is a mistake in the

7 translation.

8 Q. [In English] Sir, in the original version, we see your name,

9 first of all, we see number 16, your last name. It is followed -- is it

10 followed by the letters "DR" in Cyrillic?

11 A. Yes. However, I am a doctor of science. I'm a doctor of law,

12 not of medicine.

13 Q. Very well.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We'll revise this translation, Your Honours.

15 Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, I was going to ask you about these commissioners you said

17 which were sent from Belgrade. Who do you have in mind?

18 A. A few of them have died, and as dead, they are not important. As

19 for the rest, I can't remember their names.

20 Q. Would it be correct that Mr. Ilija Koncarevic would be one of

21 those commissioners who was sent to the region?

22 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And would Mr. Ilija Petrovic also fit within this category?

24 A. Yes, him as well.

25 Q. Now, with respect to this issue, I'd like you to take a look at

Page 11088

1 an article in the Borba, which was published in Borba, in Belgrade.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is at 65 ter 6606 at tab 13. Yes. Thank

3 you.

4 Q. Sir, the original of this clipping is in English, as it was

5 reported in the international press. The article is entitled: "The

6 Strength and Weakness of Reasonable People." It is dated the 5th of

7 April, 1991, and it talks about recent talks with Dr. Franjo Tudjman.

8 And then the second paragraph here mentions your name. It says that:

9 "Dr. Vojislav Vukcevic ... adds that the centre of power,

10 Belgrade, has been exerting strong pressure on him because he influences

11 the Serbs in Baranja to act calmly and responsibly and not to cause

12 incidents."

13 Does this accurately reflect words you would have used at the

14 time?

15 A. What is the time of this report?

16 Q. 5th of April, 1991.

17 A. I owe it to tell that you I resigned from all positions in the

18 Serbian Democratic Party on the 24th of April, 1991, and I parted with

19 people whom I liked and others whom I didn't, and some I have never met

20 after that.

21 Q. I will actually get to your resignation in a minute. But before

22 that, I wanted to confirm with you that you held the view at that time

23 that Belgrade had been exerting strong pressure on individuals like you

24 who were trying to influence Serbs to keep calm in the Baranja region.

25 A. If on the term "Belgrade" you mean Milosevic's regime, then I

Page 11089

1 have to say that people who represented him were not naive and they made

2 sure who they spoke to and how they behaved. I can't say that pressure

3 was put on me because I was already getting on. I had an integrity that

4 they couldn't influence. They were in pursuit of some other more -- less

5 stable people, I suppose, sir.

6 Q. You claim that:

7 "The Serbian Democratic Party has split into two parts which do

8 not acknowledge each other, and the influence of the Krajina part can

9 also be felt in Slavonia and Baranja."

10 Is this accurate?

11 A. Unfortunately, it is.

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I move to tender this exhibit Your Honours.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3249, Your Honours.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

16 Q. I'd like to move on now to the issue of your resigning from the

17 party, Dr. Vukcevic. In your statement, you say that you left the party

18 because you were accused of being too soft. In fact, I'd like you to

19 comment on an article that came out at the time in the Nin magazine.

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is 65 ter 6582 at tab 16 of the Prosecution

21 list.

22 Q. Have you seen this newspaper article before, doctor? I believe

23 you have it in front of you. Yes, very well.

24 And do you remember giving this interview to the journalist Momir

25 Ilic?

Page 11090

1 A. I remember this very well.

2 Q. Now, the first question in the English version is at the bottom

3 of page 1, and I think for you it's at the bottom of the first column.

4 The question is here: "What prompted you to resign from all these

5 positions in the SDS?" And here your answer is: "I'm doing this under

6 the pressure of lies, defamation and all kinds of fabrications to which I

7 have been exposed for the past five months."

8 And you associate these or you attribute these lies and

9 defamations to the Association of Serbs of Croatia based in Belgrade.

10 Dr. Vukcevic, do you know who was the head of this association?

11 A. I've forgotten his name; however, sometime in 1998 that man

12 visited me. The man hails from Osijek, just like I do. I can't remember

13 his name. And I spoke to him in a very serious manner, in a very

14 decisive manner, and I told him that he had played a very ugly and

15 dishonourable role on behalf of the Serbs. He swore that that was not

16 true. And that would be my memory of the leader of the Association of

17 Serbs from Croatia in Belgrade.

18 Q. Do you know whether a retired general by the name of Dusan Pekic

19 had any role in that association?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what was that role?

22 A. The role that I have just described.

23 Q. I see. And do you know whether General Pekic had any

24 relationship with Mr. Goran Hadzic?

25 A. No, I don't. No.

Page 11091

1 Q. The next question here --

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And this is on page 2 in the English version; in

3 the Serbian version it would be in the second column.

4 Q. The next question is here:

5 "It is being claimed that the SDS has been divided into two

6 streams almost from its beginning and that the conflict between these two

7 streams is still ongoing."

8 And you explain here two forms of consciousness that prevail

9 amongst the SDS members. Can I conclude from reading this article that

10 the distinction between these two streams are between those members of

11 the SDS who favoured dialogue and negotiations versus those who

12 championed activism and possibly the use of force?

13 A. Yes, that would be more or less the main characteristics of the

14 two streams, or the two parts, as it were.

15 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, I will ask you to now look at a different

16 interview, this time from 1996.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It's 65 ter 6601, tab 45 of the Prosecution

18 list. It's an article in Vreme magazine, and the headline is, "Unlearned

19 Lessons." I'll wait for the English version to come up on the screen.

20 Thank you.

21 Q. Are you familiar with this interview, Dr. Vukcevic?

22 A. Yes, but I can't remember what I said during that interview.

23 Q. I'll walk you through it. The first section here deals with your

24 resignation from all functions in the SDS, and you explained when that

25 happened. And you explain some shortcomings and your astonishment at the

Page 11092

1 time, and you referred to people who lied and people who believed those

2 lies. This is -- the question here is: "Could you describe those people

3 and events in more detail?"

4 Do you see that question?

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Actually, we may have to move the original

6 version. This is the third question, so it would have to be on page 2,

7 please, of the B/C/S version. Yes, on the right -- on the left side of

8 the screen, that's the question. Thank you very much.

9 Q. If you can take a moment to read that answer, the answer you gave

10 here. In the first section here, you mention:

11 "Among them there were plain activists from the government --"

12 sorry, "from the movement as well as people who came to visit us and took

13 care of us, if you want, even the highest ranking person in this nation

14 and the people who were closest to him, all of them repeating one and the

15 same thought which at the time went as follows: All Serbs in a single

16 state."

17 Now, sir, when you said "the highest ranking person in this

18 nation," you were referring to President Milosevic, weren't you?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Your answer carries on here. You say:

21 "My attempts to get from them a more concrete definition of that

22 state regarding its size, its borders and national structure, remained

23 fruitless because the protagonists and activists who promoted this idea

24 were not able to explain it fully."

25 And then you continue saying:

Page 11093

1 "The task of the activists was to keep on repeating this idea

2 they had learned by heart. The fulfilment of that idea and everything

3 connected to it was supposed to follow only at the later stage and that

4 task was to be assigned to some other people and activists. That is why

5 I believe that some of those names, some of which I have forgotten, do

6 not deserve attention. Unfortunately those names became our big

7 misfortune."

8 Sir, who did you have in mind with respect to those people who

9 became your big misfortune?

10 A. For example, the president of the Association of the Serbs of

11 Croatia, whose name I couldn't remember, and then also the late Dusan --

12 oh, well. Maybe I will remember his family name later. I can't remember

13 it now.

14 Q. If it comes back to you, feel free to tell me at that moment.

15 However, what is it that made them your biggest misfortune? What

16 is it that they did?

17 A. They did so much evil. They caused so much evil that it remains

18 living to this very day, and God knows how long it will go on living and

19 whether it will ever die.

20 Q. Could you give us, in practical terms, what is the evil that you

21 are referring to?

22 A. There is no country where you were born where you lived. The

23 only country you thought was ever possible. Could there be any bigger

24 evil than that?

25 Q. I'd like to take you to another part of this interview for one

Page 11094

1 last question you were asked here.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In the English version, we need to go to page 3,

3 and in the Serbian version we stay on the same page but could we go to

4 the middle column. Yes, right there.

5 Q. Here the question is - and may I remind you this is an interview

6 in August 1996 - "How do you see the future of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja,

7 and Western Srem?" You answer here is saying that:

8 "Since the beginning of current events, there was an idea for

9 which I never had much understanding. It says that you must ask for more

10 in order to get less. However, the problem isn't the fact that these

11 people do not know what they want and when they're offered something,

12 they do not know how to take it. I'm afraid that tackless statements and

13 actions of Goran Hadzic and the leadership in Eastern Slavonia are simply

14 repetition of what happened to Serbs in Krajina."

15 Now may I ask you, Dr. Vukcevic, what are these tackless

16 statements you referred to?

17 A. I really can't remember these statements now, and I remind you

18 again of the fact that I stopped to think and to speak and to meet with

19 people after I resigned. They lived in one area. I lived in another.

20 All of us had our own problems, and I really can't remember now what I

21 was thinking then and what these statements ...

22 Q. Do you remember perhaps whether these are statements that were

23 made during or after the conflict?

24 A. I don't know that either, really.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 11095

1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe for the answer on this question, the

2 witness should have an opportunity to read this text to the end.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's fair enough. We can keep scrolling down.

4 Q. As a matter of fact, Dr. Vukcevic, I will leave this to

5 Mr. Zivanovic to raise it in re-examination as I have more material to go

6 through at this stage, if you don't mind.

7 Because if we scroll to the next question - and that's on the

8 very right side, thank you - here it says you are one of the Serbian

9 politicians who actively negotiated with Dr. Franjo Tudjman and his

10 associates before the war. "How did those negotiations start and what

11 was their result?"

12 Your answer here explains the release of 450 Serbs who had taken

13 part in the events of the 3rd of March, 1991, in Pakrac, and you referred

14 to that earlier this morning. And you carry on and you explain that you

15 maintained a dialogue with Mr. Slavko Degoricija.

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And I believe that to see this, we have to --

17 no, we can remain on this same page in the B/C/S version, scroll all the

18 way to the bottom.

19 Q. The very last sentence begins with: "As we were satisfied with

20 the results with President Tudjman we continued talks ..." and here we

21 need to go to the next page in the B/C/S version. "We continued talks

22 with Degoricija ..."

23 And you explain here your talks with Mr. Degoricija and that he

24 had offered to solve issues relating to the Serbs in Croatia, including

25 constitutional status, economic relations, and cultural and educational

Page 11096

1 matters. And you explain here the reaction of Serbs in Croatia in the

2 following words. You say here:

3 "Unfortunately, the Serbs did not accept this offer.

4 Unfortunately, on that day, a group of feeble-minded and aggressive

5 individuals from Baranja made itself heard and broke unity of the Serbian

6 movement."

7 If we skip a sentence you then say:

8 "Several days later, the Serbian National Council passed a

9 decision about separation of this region from Croatia and by doing so,

10 became the first one, in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, that

11 broke Yugoslavia. That evening, at this very session they passed a

12 decision that professor Vojislav Vukcevic is not authorised any longer to

13 speak on behalf of the Serbian people."

14 Dr. Vukcevic, does this answer accurately represent your answers

15 at the time?

16 A. It does. But there were worse statements and even worse

17 happenings than that.

18 Q. I'll get to that in a moment.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, may I tender this article, please.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3250, Your Honours.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

23 Q. You mentioned "worse statements and even worse happenings at that

24 time." Would it be correct to say that at the time threats were made

25 against you by individuals such as Vojislav Seselj and Jovo Ostojic? Are

Page 11097

1 you familiar with that?

2 A. Yes, especially Jovo Ostojic and a man called Paroski from

3 Vojvodina were throwing their weight about and competed who would find a

4 worse name to call me and denigrate my work more.

5 Can I explain just one more detail? Coming back from Zagreb

6 after talking to President Tudjman, I turned on my car radio to Radio

7 Belgrade because it was time for the news bulletin, and then quite

8 unexpectedly I heard the speaker saying, "Our correspondent from

9 Beli Manastir informs us that negotiations were just held in Zagreb

10 between a representative of the Serbs and the Croatian president,

11 Tudjman. The Serbian team included Mr. Vukcevic about whom we insist on

12 saying that he is not a representative of the Serbs and has no

13 authorisation to negotiate anything," although they knew about the

14 decision authorising me.

15 It was so ugly that I didn't know what to do. What can you do in

16 that situation if you want to fight and do good and you are rejected by

17 people? Can you imagine it? We hadn't even reached home. We were

18 coming back from Zagreb, we were still on the highway, and we hear the

19 voice on the radio saying these things about us. Of course, the people

20 at that radio station were under the influence of the Belgrade regime.

21 Q. Thank you for that explanation. I apologise. My attention was

22 attracted to the very next item I was going to show you at this moment.

23 Sir, before I move to that, these words that were uttered against

24 you were made during a rally in the village of Jagodnjak in April 1991,

25 and I would like you to take a look at the footage that we have now in

Page 11098

1 Sanction.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can play the first clip which starts at

3 the -- sorry, I must announce also the 65 ter number, 4785, at tab 17.

4 THE INTERPRETER: We haven't got it yet. Just a minute.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. For the interpreters, the first clip will

6 not have any translation or any sound or any words.

7 THE INTERPRETER: We have it now.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. Can we play the first clip which is

9 about 20 seconds.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

12 Q. We can pause that here. You see the date on the screen which is

13 the 21st of April, 1991, Dr. Vukcevic. I'd like to us go to the second

14 clip, which starts at the 4 minutes and 10 second mark, and this is from

15 page 1 of the transcript for the interpreters. Bottom of the page where

16 you see the initials "V" and "Sh." If the interpreters want to give me

17 the signal that --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. Can we play that, please.

20 [Video-clip played]

21 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Brothers and sisters Serbs, the

22 Serbian people of Serbian Slavonia, Western Srem and Baranja have made a

23 decision through their Serbian National Council to join the present

24 Republic of Serbia directly. This decision of the Serbian people is

25 incontestable and has met with acclamation and support throughout Serbdom

Page 11099

1 in general."

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

3 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, did you hear Mr. Seselj here saying that this

4 decision was brought through the Serbian National Council?

5 A. Yes, I heard it now.

6 Q. And on the 21st of April, were you aware of who was the president

7 or the head of the Serbian National Council?

8 A. You mean Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and that?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I didn't give it any thought because I knew that whoever the

11 president was, he was not defending his own opinion or policies. They

12 got their opinions from elsewhere. Seselj was the chief person for

13 Slavonia and Baranja and all that area, "of all the Serbdom," as he put

14 it.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, is this the appropriate time for

16 the break?

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's right. Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

18 Thirty-minute break. Court adjourned.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, if I take a few minutes for

23 planning purposes, I take you still can finish with this witness today?

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I could try, Your Honours, as much as I can.

25 There may be a small spill-over into tomorrow morning, but I'll try my

Page 11100

1 best to shorten --

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yeah.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: To discuss the next two witnesses: One is a

5 closed-session witness, I think, and one is a public-session witness. Is

6 that right, Mr. Zivanovic?

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The next witness is for the public session.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's for the public session. That is --

9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And the witness after him, I must double-check,

10 but I think also that he is for the public session.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I'm sure for the next witness.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: The next witness there's no problem. It's

14 Mr. Seselj; right?

15 Now, it's about that witness that we might a problem. I saw your

16 last e-mail, Mr. Zivanovic, about the problems you have with the

17 Detention Unit. Is the second witness available? Would he be available

18 tomorrow?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Second witness or the next witness?

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: So the next witness after Mr. Seselj.

21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He arrived, but I don't believe he is -- he is

22 ready to enter courtroom tomorrow.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay, because I will think --

24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: But, anyway, we can start with the next witness

25 after this one.

Page 11101

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: So we can start with Mr. Seselj --

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Disregarding some problems that we met with --

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Which then you will solve during the time

4 Mr. Seselj is on the stand; is that right?

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. Yes, that's correct.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.

7 Okay. We can bring the witness in, please.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a request,

10 with your leave. I would kindly ask that we finish today, if at all

11 possible. I need to return tomorrow because I am to attend a very

12 important trial on Wednesday, and I would appreciate it very much if we

13 could speed up a little and finish today.

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'll try my best to restrict my questions to the

16 essentials, Your Honours. I don't know if there's any re-direct.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, yes, of course, the re-direct.

18 Mr. Zivanovic?

19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct, we have re-direct.

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, Madam Registrar, just one moment.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: We'll check whether we can have one extra session

24 this afternoon, just in case.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 11102

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, of course --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're welcome, Mr. Vukcevic. And, of course,

6 the length of your answers are of some importance now as well, aren't

7 they?

8 Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, just before the break, you were answering my

11 questions with respect to a video we saw on the screen with

12 Vojislav Seselj referring to the Serbian National Council, and I asked

13 you whether you knew who the president was.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I ask that we display on the screen, 65

15 ter 1D02959. This is at tab 14 of the Prosecution's list.

16 Q. The article will appear on the screen in front of you,

17 Dr. Vukcevic, and -- okay. We're having some problems with the monitor

18 here. Do you see the article in front of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. There we are. Okay. It's at the bottom right-hand corner - yes,

21 that's what it is. The article is entitled: "Negotiations About

22 Negotiations." And for your information, Dr. Vukcevic, it is dated the

23 10th of April, 1991, and it was published in Vecernje List. Could you

24 confirm that this is a Croatian daily; is that right?

25 A. It is.

Page 11103

1 Q. Now, the first paragraph starts with "Vukovar."

2 "After two relatively calm days, the population of the Vukovar

3 district is attentively expecting the negotiations that should commence

4 today in the municipal assembly of Vukovar."

5 And towards the end of this first paragraph, we can see here:

6 "Goran Hadzic, one of the leading SDS persons for Slavonia,

7 Baranja, and Western Srem, as well as the president of the so-called

8 Serbian National Council, also announced that negotiations would last

9 long."

10 Now, this is the 10th of April, 1991, and the video we saw

11 earlier with Mr. Seselj was 11 days later, the 21st of April, 1991.

12 Would you agree that at the time Mr. Hadzic's role in the SNC was

13 publicly available?

14 A. To the extent that the public read this and other newspapers that

15 mentioned it, that covered it, to that extent, the public was aware.

16 Q. Now, of course, I was not there at the time you were. Can you

17 tell us if this information at least was known to you in April of 1991?

18 A. Which one?

19 Q. The fact that Mr. Hadzic was the president of the Serbian

20 National Council of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

21 A. I heard people say that, the people around me.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, may I tender this exhibit.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3251, Your Honours.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

Page 11104

1 Q. In fact, I'd like to show you a document, which is at tab 11.

2 This is 65 ter 1939.13. At the very top, we see here:

3 "At the session that took place on 17 March 1991 in Sid, National

4 Council of Serbs has elected for the council chairman, Mr. Goran Hadzic,

5 from Pacetin."

6 The document --

7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may I just object because this document,

8 the translation of this document is not complete; namely, the footnote of

9 this document was not translated. And in the original, if we can scroll

10 down a little bit, we see the footnote reads -- it is too small.

11 [Interpretation] "The decision was drafted after the session

12 of the Great National Assembly of 25 June 1991."

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. We can ask for a revision of the

14 translation to include the footnote.

15 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, this is a decision which was published in a book

16 which was prepared by Mr. Ilija Petrovic himself, and it shows a date

17 here, 17th of March, 1991. Would this appointment at this position in

18 the Serbian National Council correspond to the time-period where the

19 Serbian National Council was created?

20 A. I was excommunicated very early on from many events because they

21 harboured and fostered mistrust towards me. So there are many things I

22 do not know. You have to believe me. It's a fact.

23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, may we MFI it at this moment until

24 we have an updated translation.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Let if be MFI'd.

Page 11105

1 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1939.13?

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's the one, yes.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 3252 marked for identification.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you very much.

6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just tell that I would object if it had

7 to be tendered into evidence because the witness said that he doesn't

8 know anything about this.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian --

10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- perhaps it would be better to solve this

12 immediately --

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours --

14 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- with your answer to the objection.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Your Honours, we saw an article just

16 earlier which showed that Mr. Hadzic's appointment to the Serbian

17 National Council was in the public. This one gives us a more precise

18 date of his appointment. Dr. Vukcevic told us a few minutes ago that he

19 was aware, that at least by April 1991 Mr. Hadzic was holding this

20 position.

21 So this document, we would suggest, provides you a more precise

22 date, and other excerpts from the -- Mr. Petrovic's book have been

23 tendered through Mr. Hadzic's testimony, at least four of them. So this

24 is another one of those decisions published in this book. So it is

25 strictly for the sake of precising [sic] the date of his appointment.

Page 11106

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.

2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I believe that there is no foundation for the

3 tendering of this document with this witness, this particular witness,

4 and in particular because of the footnote was not translated and from

5 which we can see that in the written form this decision did not exist

6 before June, 25th of June, 1991. And ...

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, perhaps putting aside the footnote

8 issue which we agreed we would translate, the witness just said a moment

9 ago that he was familiar with the fact that at least by April Mr. Hadzic

10 held this role, and it is publicly published in newspaper articles as

11 well. So I think that there is a nexus to the witness. It showed that

12 not only did he know at the time but here we have a more precise date in

13 this document.

14 And perhaps I could -- there's four exhibits that have been

15 tendered so far from this book which have been shown to be reliable and

16 which have been shown to actually connect to evidence about the events at

17 the time. These are Exhibits P3214, P3215, 3216, and 3217.

18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, the tendering of the other documents from

19 this book have nothing to do with the tendering of this particular

20 document.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to say

22 something and supplement my testimony by saying that, first and foremost,

23 I did not respect either Petrovic or Koncarevic because in my mind the

24 two of them were people who were not worthy of anybody's respect.

25 Second of all, that was a time when you couldn't know what was

Page 11107

1 information and what was just the opposite or misinformation. People say

2 whatever they wanted, whatever pleased them, whatever suited them, and

3 then they tried to convince you that they told you the truth, and then

4 some other days you would hear the exactly opposite thing.

5 Go ahead.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Excuse me, Mr. Vukcevic. Sorry. We are dealing

7 here with a technical matter so just give us a minute, please.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: The objection is overruled. So the document

10 stays MFI'd until we have a translation with the footnote. Thank you.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, I would like us to return to the video that we were

13 looking at of the rally at Jagodnjak. If you remember earlier I

14 mentioned to you that there were some utterances made by Seselj with

15 respect to you, and I would like us to take a look for a moment as to

16 what was said during this rally. You will see it in front of you on the

17 screen.

18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And before we go on, I'd like to make sure that

19 the interpreters have the transcript. This is 65 ter 4785, tab 17, and

20 we'll need to turn to page 2 in both the English and the B/C/S version.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

23 [Video-clip played]

24 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The Serbian people will never

25 accept any confederal rearrangement of Yugoslavia. No confederation.

Page 11108

1 The present authorities in Croatia hit on the idea to form in divisions,

2 arguments and conflicts among the Serbs because they realised they cannot

3 achieve anything against Serbs when they are united and harmonious. They

4 can always find a few, a handful of Serbian traitors, like this

5 Djuna Djukic, assistant to the Ustasha minister of police, who formed a

6 new Serbian national party with the sole aim of introducing a Trojan

7 horse into the Serbian ranks. That party will never have any success

8 among the Serbian people. After all, in World War II, during a genocide

9 in which 1 million Serbs were killed, the Ustasha leader Pavelic had a

10 Serbian deputy, Besarevic. There will always be such traitors, but we

11 shall always recognise them and brand them on time.

12 "Here, among you in Baranja, another such traitor has appeared.

13 It is Vojislav Vukcevic whom the Serbian people has already driven out.

14 What is the aim of these traitors? Today they speak in favour of the

15 cultural autonomy of the Serbian people in Croatia, but they also argue

16 in favour of Croatia remaining within the borders given to it as a

17 present by the criminal and crook Josip Broz Tito. The Croatian

18 authorities are now willing to give the Serbs any form of autonomy -

19 cultural, political, or territorial - anything the Serbs want, as long as

20 they get a confederation in return.

21 "What is their aim? The present internal borders in Yugoslavia

22 are purely administrative and they are not protected by any norm of

23 international law. We can change them at will insofar as our political

24 strength allows, and the world does not dare interfere. If we agree to a

25 confederation, these borders suddenly become borders between states,

Page 11109

1 protected by the norms of international public law, and can never be

2 changed again."

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

4 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, you heard the term "traitor" being used when

5 Mr. Seselj spoke of you. What impact did such speeches have on your life

6 at that time?

7 A. They caused revulsion, but I don't know what other people thought

8 about either him or me.

9 Q. And, sir, these type of speeches at the time made by Seselj and

10 later on we'll see Paroski or Ostojic, didn't these speeches have a

11 impact on their followers?

12 A. You heard the clamour of the people who supported him. Those

13 same people applauded me only a year earlier. This is the lot of the

14 politicians everywhere.

15 Q. So would you say that there had been a radicalisation of this

16 population?

17 A. He arrived with a mission and the mission was to do things the

18 way he did them. Very few people were so skilled and successful at

19 manipulating the people the way he did. And I'm sure that he had his

20 supporters and like-minded people. You heard people applauding when he

21 said that I was a traitor. I established the Serbian party in that same

22 village, and I managed to put -- restore order among two factions in the

23 same village. One faction were former Chetniks; the other, former

24 partisans. And they applauded me when I did that, and only a year later,

25 you heard what happened.

Page 11110

1 Q. Now, did you hear also at the end of his speech Seselj seems to

2 be challenging the established borders of the republics within the former

3 Yugoslavia, and he challenges those borders drawn, as he says, by Tito.

4 What did you think of such views at the time?

5 A. Personally what I thought, I thought that it was too late, that

6 things like that should have been said well in time and not when he said

7 them; and that his only goal was not only to change the borders but also

8 to create misfortune which appeared very soon after that.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, may I tender this video, please.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: 65 ter 4785.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3253, Your Honours. Thank you.

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

14 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, were you familiar with the fact that after the

15 rally was held at Jagodnjak the police from Osijek investigated the

16 content of these speeches?

17 A. There were a lot of rumours. A lot was written about things. I

18 can't remember what happened because by then I had already been revolted

19 by the whole thing, by all of the events, by some of the people. And I

20 really can't remember what the Osijek police did, whom they questioned.

21 I really don't know.

22 Q. Were you familiar with or were you in contact with the police

23 chief, Mr. Josip Reihl-Kir?

24 A. Yes, I was in contact with him but I can tell you why and when.

25 The Serbs wanted me to supply them with arms. I said I didn't have any

Page 11111

1 and that I couldn't give them any arms. And then I called an activist

2 from our movement. I wanted the two of us to go after see the chief of

3 police Kir. His name was Dragica Radic. He went with me.

4 I came to see the chief of police and I told him what the Serbs

5 required from me, and I asked him to come and meet with the Serbs and

6 told them what was possible. And that's what happened in late

7 February 1991. I brought him to a meeting of the SDS board for Baranja.

8 I could have knocked them out with a feather when they saw whom I had

9 brought to that meeting. They thought that it was a terrible

10 provocation, that it was not possible.

11 However, he was not just a common policeman. He was very

12 extraordinary. He was very smart, very well-meaning, and he said, "I

13 promise you" - and I have the minutes of that meeting - "I promise you

14 you will get weapons if you apply for them but on one condition, not

15 because you're Serbs or you're not Serbs. You just have to prove that

16 you are not under criminal investigation, that there are no proceedings

17 instituted against you. If not, you will get arms."

18 And that's the same all over the world and Croatia is not an

19 exception. That's how it was. Those who wanted to get weapons, or at

20 least that's what I think, nobody complained or bragged about that.

21 However, I heard that those who had applied did receive weapons.

22 On that occasion, he also asked us try and influence those Serbs

23 who were members of the police to come back to work because he personally

24 promised them that nothing bad would happen to them if they would only

25 come back to work. And when that tragedy happened to Kir, Serbs in

Page 11112

1 Baranja used a slogan and that slogan was "No peace after Kir."

2 Q. And very briefly could you please tell me, do you know whether he

3 made a genuine effort at investigating those speeches made by Seselj,

4 Ostojic, and Paroski, specifically threats that were made -- or words

5 used against you?

6 A. Believe me, I don't know. However, I never doubted his good

7 intentions or his goodness as a man. If it did not cost him anything, I

8 mean in his position, I'm sure that he did it. He was a good man.

9 That's how I saw him and perceived him.

10 Q. I'd like to move to a different topic, Dr. Vukcevic, and it

11 relates to your testimony where you stated that -- and this was on

12 Thursday of last week. You stated you met Goran Hadzic on the 9th of

13 June, 1990, when the SDS border was created in your region, but you also

14 said that you had met him before as his wife was a student.

15 A. You mean Vukovar?

16 Q. Yes. You also stated that you had met him before as his wife was

17 a student of yours.

18 A. Yes, yes. And that's correct.

19 Q. Can you tell us how frequent had you met Mr. Hadzic before 1990

20 and how close were you to him?

21 A. Those were just chance meetings.

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. I just happened to meet him. We would greet each other. We

24 would be polite and civilised when we happened to see each other, but

25 that was all.

Page 11113

1 Q. Earlier this morning you mentioned that you -- I believe you said

2 you knew his family; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And by "his family," who did you mean exactly?

5 A. I was one of the guests at his christening in 1990, on the 14th

6 of October or 14th September or, rather, it was his patron saint's day,

7 on Saint Michael's Day. And then I saw all of them in one place, his

8 mother, his father, and all those who were his family members. They were

9 decent people, ordinary, decent people.

10 Q. Mm-hm. And did you happen to entertain each other or invite one

11 another for dinners?

12 A. No. Those were just the beginnings of our work in the Serbian

13 Democratic Party. Later we did what we had to. Each day was more

14 complex and more complicated than the previous ones. It brought new

15 problems, new activities. We didn't socialise at that time. We would

16 see each other at meetings and gatherings.

17 Q. And following the 9th of June of 1990, did that relationship

18 develop a little more?

19 A. Well, yes, it did, insomuch as we travelled together to Knin. We

20 attended the sessions of the Regional Board of the SDS, when we met on

21 party business, on the business of the Serbian Democratic Party, and

22 there was nothing else but that. Nothing special.

23 Q. Now, you mentioned last Thursday a discussion you had with

24 Mr. Hadzic in relation to a speech given by a man named Kresojevic in

25 Belgrade. You remember talking about that last Thursday?

Page 11114

1 A. Yes, I remember that.

2 Q. Now, you stated that you discussed this speech with Mr. Hadzic

3 during a car ride to Knin, and I'd like to ask you if you remember

4 approximately --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- when did this car ride take place.

7 A. Immediately after his speech in Belgrade. And that event was

8 still fresh, very fresh in our memories.

9 Q. Okay. And this event in Belgrade took place when.

10 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

11 Q. Was it in 1990 or 1991?

12 A. In 1990.

13 Q. And I assume this would have been the second half of 1990.

14 A. Yes. Most probably, yes.

15 Q. Okay. And if I understand well, the substance of what

16 Mr. Kresojevic said in his speech was that Serbs from Eastern Slavonia

17 fully supported Milosevic. Is that what it was about?

18 A. I believe so.

19 Q. Okay. And if I look at your statement, you say there that:

20 "Goran Hadzic said at the time that he would not make a speech supporting

21 Milosevic..."

22 Is that the gist of his reaction?

23 A. Who was it who was not going to speak in favour of Milosevic?

24 Goran Hadzic or Milosevic? I didn't quite understand your question, sir.

25 Q. The sentence reads as follows: "Goran Hadzic said at that time

Page 11115

1 that he would not make a speech supporting Milosevic on any account."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, did he tell you why he considered it objectionable to

4 support Milosevic? Did he explain that to you?

5 A. Well, he believed that I shared his opinion, and we thought that

6 the Serbs in Serbia did not understand the Serbs in Croatia and that they

7 had a different view of the space, time, and people, the people's

8 sentiment and desires. And although we were Serbs just like the Serbs in

9 Serbia, in some historical moments, we were two entirely different

10 worlds.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned that in doing so, Hadzic displayed a great

12 deal of courage in telling you his position with respect to

13 Mr. Milosevic.

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Now --

16 A. Yes, yes, yes.

17 Q. -- he never stated this position in public, did he?

18 A. I don't know what he said, where he said it, whether yes or no.

19 I don't know. I didn't follow the events so closely and so precisely, so

20 I wouldn't know.

21 I have to tell you, though, that the Serbs in Croatia differed

22 and that they were distinguished into those who supported Milosevic and

23 those who didn't. Milosevic was not supported by those who were better

24 acquainted with the circumstances of the Serbs in Croatia because people

25 who came from Serbia and who behaved in the way they did could not be

Page 11116

1 supported. However, whoever did not praise Milosevic was not a good

2 Serb.

3 Q. Sir, I'd like you to take a look at an interview, Exhibit P1742.

4 It's at tab 55. This is an article entitled: "Man For Tough Talk." It

5 was published on the 25th of March, 1992, in Borba. And in the English

6 version, I would like us to turn to page 3, and in the B/C/S version,

7 could we go to the bottom of the second column.

8 There's a question there put to Mr. Hadzic which reads as

9 follows: "What is your position towards the SPS and Slobodan Milosevic?"

10 Now, Mr. Hadzic gives a lengthy answer at the end of which he

11 says the following. We have to turn to page 4 in the English version,

12 and in the B/C/S version, we need to go to the top of the third column.

13 Yes.

14 There's a sentence here that reads as follows: "I have a good

15 relationship with Milosevic for whom I believe ... is the greatest living

16 Serb politician and I have great respect for his work ..."

17 Now, Dr. Vukcevic, this is March 1992. Perhaps Goran Hadzic

18 displayed some courage in a one-on-one conversation with you, but I would

19 put it to you that he had great respect for Milosevic, just as he says

20 publicly in this interview. Would you agree that this courage he

21 displayed was only in private?

22 A. I know what he said, but I don't know what he was thinking when

23 he said it. It's very hard to speak on somebody's behalf. It's very

24 difficult to say what one person thinks when he says what he does. As

25 I've told you, after the 15th or 20th of April, 1991, I excommunicated

Page 11117

1 myself of my own will. I removed myself from everything that I had been

2 doing up to then.

3 Q. And I can imagine that as a founder of this political party,

4 these were shocking moments in your life.

5 A. Very, very.

6 Q. And in the same -- or in the same topic, if you remember at least

7 in your statement, you state that up until April 1991, when you left the

8 party, Hadzic was in the moderate wing of the SDS, and I asked you this

9 morning if it meant that this changed. But you were not in touch with

10 him anymore after you left the leadership of the SDS?

11 A. I was no longer in contact with him.

12 Q. And I want to show you a small clip which is dated January 1991.

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It's Exhibit P53 in Sanction, please. This is

14 tab 9. For the interpreters, this will be page 1 of both English and

15 B/C/S versions.

16 Q. Now, Dr. Vukcevic, the clip I'm going to show you is on the

17 occasion of the celebration of Sveti Sava, which I understand is held on

18 27th of January each other. Is that right?

19 A. Correct. 27 January.

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Are the interpreters ready with the transcript?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we are.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

23 Can we show the first clip, please.

24 [Video-clip played]

25 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

Page 11118

1 "Goran Hadzic: Brothers and sisters, I greet you with our

2 traditional Serb greeting: May God be with you.

3 "As president of the Municipal Board which you belong to, let me

4 say, as it is my duty, a few words about our Vukovar Municipal Board.

5 Even though there are many topics we're going to discuss later on, our

6 party was established on 10 June last year in Vukovar and 19 boards have

7 been established since then. Today the party has 21 boards and I

8 congratulate you on establishing your two local boards. We have already

9 faced many problems in our party. You are familiar with them and you

10 know who caused them. However, we managed to overcome them and we should

11 thank our current leadership ..."

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

13 Q. Sir, I just wanted you to listen to this original portion of the

14 clip which establishes the date when the local boards were created, and

15 you've testified about that earlier. I'd like you now to look at the

16 second clip.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And for the interpreters, we need to turn to

18 page 2 in both of English and the B/C/S. The time code for this one will

19 be 3 minutes, 29 seconds onwards.

20 Q. Sir, while we're fixing some technical issues, can I ask you, are

21 you -- were you present at this rally by any chance?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Are the interpreters ready with page 2?

25 THE INTERPRETER: We are.

Page 11119

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you. Just waiting for the video.

2 [Video-clip played]

3 "Goran Hadzic: For the moment we have to accept it and organise

4 ourselves which you had occasion to see on the TV two nights ago. I'm

5 sure that you experienced it just as I did. This is what I think. In

6 the whole world we cannot find 80.000 Serbs who would just say something

7 bad about another people, who would just verbally say something offensive

8 about other people. Whereas, those others have 80.000 machine-guns in

9 their possession and keep them so they could use them against us. It is

10 ridiculous. 1941 has happened again. 1945 has happened again. Then in

11 1971, we thought we would forgive them. It wouldn't happen again. I'm

12 telling you now, if the Croatian people do not renounce their Ustashas

13 publicly, we will propose through our Serbian National Council that we

14 cut all ties between Serbs and Croats."

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

16 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, would you able to hear what was said? I know the

17 volume was not perfect but were you able to hear?

18 A. I heard it, yeah.

19 Q. And this is the 27th of January, and Mr. Hadzic here talks about

20 1941, 1945, and that the Croatian people should renounce their Ustasha.

21 If you remember earlier today, we talked about these sorts of

22 terms - Chetnik, Ustasha - being used around that time. Is this the type

23 of speech you favoured at the time?

24 A. I myself did not use these terms. But you have to understand the

25 frame of mind that prevailed in that time. This is a typical moment when

Page 11120

1 the masses expect you to say the words they are harbouring in their

2 hearts and minds, traumatised as they were.

3 To make a rapprochement with them and to convince them that you

4 feel the same, sometimes you have to say even things you don't mean in

5 order to be closer to them, and then they would accept you as one of

6 their own, as one they hold dear.

7 You should not take Goran Hadzic always at his word when you

8 listen to his speeches. His speeches were tailored to the occasion in

9 order to make him accepted by the crowd. We ourselves did not always

10 feel comfortable in such places. Here and now, it is very difficult for

11 you to understand the state of mind that prevailed among the people then.

12 You can't understand what it was really like. When, in your own country,

13 you cannot walk freely, you cannot speak freely, you cannot act like

14 before, then you can hardly avoid the reaction of the kind you just

15 heard.

16 Q. Now, in your statement, you tell us that while you were in the

17 party leadership, "We kept appeasing the Serbs and telling them that the

18 genocide of the Second World War would not be repeated."

19 Now, sir, this speech we heard a moment ago - and this is a just

20 a small clip; there is more - this speech we heard a moment ago clearly

21 goes against your efforts to appease the Serb population, doesn't it?

22 A. I have been telling you things as I saw them but you must believe

23 me that behind these words is a very sincere, open heart. It's not

24 exactly as it sounds. Things are not as they appear.

25 Q. But publicly to those who are in the gathering here and listening

Page 11121

1 to his words, those words are not going to appease them, are they?

2 A. Look, you can try to find peace and appease others, but when you

3 get out of that place and you know that you will not be allowed to stay

4 in peace, that somebody would raise a hand at you, would shoot at you,

5 then you cannot be surprised at this sentiment among these people and

6 that they wanted to hear words like this. They expected, they wanted to

7 hear this, if I am at all good at reading people's emotions.

8 It all depends on the educational attainment, on their personal

9 experience, on their age, if they had already lived through something

10 similar before, then they would be more sensitive, more receptive to

11 these words.

12 I've already told you that I was not very popular. My house was

13 fired at. I was attacked. People didn't like me because I was telling

14 the truth. People don't want to hear the truth. They want to hear what

15 they wish for. And you have to be very careful in evaluating what is

16 publicly said, what is actually meant. In Belgrade I gained some

17 experience in politics and I learned one thing: People do not like the

18 truth. They expect you to say the things they want to hear.

19 Q. If I may cut you here so that we carry on. Dr. Vukcevic, it is

20 correct, however, that would you not have made this speech?

21 A. I would not, but it doesn't mean that others would not.

22 Q. During this speech, which we just heard, he also makes a

23 reference to the Serbian National Council which was created perhaps three

24 weeks before this rally. You were not in favour of the creation of the

25 Serbian National Council, were you?

Page 11122

1 A. No, I was not because Serbs had their own national council based

2 in Knin. And Milan Babic was president of that Serbian National Council,

3 and we believed that they were some kind of Serbian shadow government and

4 that one was enough. We didn't need another. However, there were people

5 who made it happen, that another Serbian National Council be established

6 for Eastern Slavonia as well, had certain purposes in mind.

7 Goran Hadzic, who has in his life uttered many words which he

8 didn't mean, is not the greatest culprit. You should not consider him as

9 the greatest culprit. There are many others who are more responsible

10 than he and who are no longer alive.

11 I remembered, by the way, two names you asked me about before.

12 One was Dusan Kulic, another was [Realtime transcript read in error

13 "Milan"] Jovan Popovic, and a third one was Jovan Krkobabic. He died

14 recently. He was the deputy prime minister of Serbia. He demanded that

15 I follow their instructions; otherwise, I would not fare well and I

16 indeed didn't fare well.

17 So judge for yourself: Did Goran Hadzic say these things because

18 he meant them or because he had to say them?

19 Q. Sir, on the topic of the Serbian National Council, I'd like you

20 to look at an interview you gave on the 15th of January, 1991.

21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is 65 ter 6580, at tab 8.

22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I just think that one of the names was not

23 transcribed correctly. It is in line 19. After Dusan Kulic, it was

24 written Milan Popovic. But as far as I heard, the witness mentioned

25 another name.

Page 11123

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

2 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, if you could specify --

3 A. Once again, Dusan Kulic, Jovan Krkobabic, and Jovo Kokot.

4 Q. Thank you very much. We see here a newspaper article entitled:

5 "New Serbian National Council Founded in Secret." This was published in

6 Vjesnik on the 15th of January, 1991, and I'd like to take you to the

7 third column in the B/C/S version and that's page 2 in the English

8 version. Yes, we can scroll down a little bit for the B/C/S version.

9 Thank you.

10 I believe the title of this section is called "They Surprised the

11 SDS," and it reads here:

12 "Ilija Koncarevic was elected the Secretary-General of the

13 Serbian National Council. However, it is unclear what this had to do

14 with what is in Knin, but it is clear that the scenario of their actions

15 is the same. However, its formation surprised even some of the

16 responsible leaders of the SDS. Vojislav Vukcevic, the vice-president of

17 the SDS Executive Committee, speaking about the current events in

18 Croatia, called the council ... unconstitutional. In Vukcevic's opinion,

19 if something was formed, it could only be a board of the already existing

20 Serbian National Council formed in Knin."

21 And if we scroll up in the B/C/S version all the way to the top

22 of the fourth column, the following sentence says: "It is obvious that

23 the Knin-ification of Slavonia and Baranja is starting ..."

24 Now, sir, by calling or by stating that this council was

25 unconstitutional, can you tell us what you meant by that?

Page 11124

1 A. I meant what is written and what I said. I said that the Serbs

2 already had their Serbian National Council based in Knin and it was valid

3 for all the Serbs in Croatia. I thought that every fragmentation and

4 every separation of any part of Croatia from the whole amounted to a

5 breakup of Yugoslavia, that it was contrary to the interests of

6 Yugoslavia, and we were fighting to preserve Yugoslavia. That's why I

7 was saying we don't need a national council for Slavonia and Baranja

8 because we already have one national council based in Knin for all the

9 Serbs, and that's exactly as we read here.

10 Q. Now, Dr. Vukcevic, I heard you earlier when you stated that --

11 well, let me actually get the words exactly so I don't misquote you. You

12 said that: "Goran Hadzic, who has in his life uttered many words which

13 he didn't mean, is not the greatest culprit."

14 Now, sir, whether he meant those words or not, he did say them

15 and they did have an impact on the people on the ground; is that right?

16 A. I was not among the people on the ground, and I don't know what

17 kind of impact it made.

18 Q. You didn't remain in Baranja until September 1991, however.

19 That's what I mean by "on the ground."

20 A. Yes, but until the 6th of September, I had spent one year in the

21 monastery of Hilandar, on Sveta Gora, the holy mountain.

22 Q. I'm sorry, that's not very clear to me here. One year in a

23 monastery?

24 A. No, only one month, but in that year, 1991, before I definitively

25 left Beli Manastir. In fact, I was expelled from Beli Manastir. They

Page 11125

1 had seized my car and told me that the staff of Baranja had made a

2 decision that I had to leave. That was my activity for that year.

3 And as for Sveta Gora and the monastery of Hilandar, I spent the

4 entire month of July 1991 there. And then I returned briefly to

5 Beli Manastir and then again I travelled again to Belgrade and so on.

6 Q. Now, sir, I understand that you have some sympathy for

7 Mr. Hadzic. However, considering what you were trying to achieve, I'm

8 putting it to you that you may have been a negotiator, someone who was

9 ready to talk, but what we see here goes against your every effort, a

10 creation of a Serbian National Council, speeches which are not aimed at

11 appeasing the population, the use of terms that you did not condone, such

12 as Ustasha and the like?

13 A. The other side, the side that demanded it from Goran Hadzic, was

14 much stronger than I. I was just an ordinary man.

15 Q. Sir, you said a moment ago that you were expelled from

16 Beli Manastir and that they seized your car and told you that the staff

17 of Baranja had made a decision that you had to leave. Was this staff led

18 by a man named Borivoje Zivanovic?

19 A. No, he was always a very small man and remained a small man. He

20 was just an assistant to another Borivoje who was the commander of the

21 Baranja Defence Staff.

22 Q. Do you remember the last name of this commander?

23 A. Boro Dobrokes.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, I notice the time. Looking at the

25 questions I have, I will probably need another 20 minutes. I'm not sure

Page 11126

1 if we have made arrangements for an extra session to complete the

2 witness's testimony today.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: We did, Mr. Demirdjian.

4 Mr. Zivanovic, your re-direct, time-wise?

5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: My estimate is half an hour.

6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Then we will -- is this the time for

7 you -- the best time for you to break?

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, yes, because I will enter a topic

9 which will last more than two, three minutes.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So we will break now and come back at 3.00 for a

11 one-hour session.

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE DELVOIE: And I'll keep you to that, both of you.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm very grateful to you. Thank

16 you very much.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're welcome, Mr. Vukcevic.

18 Court adjourned.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.56 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 2.59 p.m.

22 [The witness takes the stand]

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Demirdjian, please proceed.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Dr. Vukcevic, I will try to go as fast as I can so we can