1 Tuesday, 16 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: And for the appearances, Mr. Stringer.
11 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, and, Your Honour,
12 Judge Hall. For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Matthew Gillett,
13 Case Manager Thomas Laugel, legal intern Ivana Parac.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 Mr. Zivanovic for the Defence.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
17 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. Could the record reflect
19 that we sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis, Judge Mindua being absent.
20 The witness may be brought in.
21 We go into closed session, sorry.
22 [Closed session]
11 Pages 11493-11537 redacted. Closed session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 I take it the plan is now to go back to the cross-examination of
13 Milinkovic -- Borivoje Milinkovic; is that right?
14 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour. We're ready.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: The witness may be brought in.
16 Mr. Gillett, how long will you take? More or less, of course.
17 MR. GILLETT: Of course, it may depend on the length of the
18 witness's answers. I'd estimate somewhere in excess of an hour but
19 hopefully less than an hour and a half.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: You may be seated, Mr. Milinkovic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Mr. Milinkovic, first of all, we want to apologise for the delay.
25 The weather was good, so I hope it was not too bad for you. We'll
1 continue with your cross-examination, and I have to remind you that you
2 are still under oath.
3 Mr. Gillett, please proceed.
4 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Before I
5 get back into the substance of the cross-examination, I noted from your
6 decision concerning this witness that the associated exhibits were
7 accepted as relevant and probative and the basis was established for
8 admission. But three of them do not appear yet to have been admitted
9 when his 92 ter statement was admitted. These are 65 ter documents
10 1D1367, 1D1590, and 1D1296. And so I'd just like to verify if those will
11 indeed be admitted as part of his 92 ter package.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: As soon as you tender them which I suppose you do
14 MR. GILLETT: I had understood that the Defence were tendering
15 them as part of the package but I'm certainly --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Of course, I'm sorry. It's not -- it's not
17 your documents. It's the Defence's documents.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Defence only tendered two documents. But you
20 are aware of that, and you are wondering whether the three other ones
21 will be tendered as well. I don't -- I don't see any move from the
22 Defence to do that.
23 MR. GILLETT: And this is the cause of my confusion. The usual
24 procedure had been that where the associated exhibits listed in the
25 Rule 92 ter filing were accepted by Your Honours as associated exhibits,
1 they would be, can I say, automatically admitted, and I had understood
2 that would be the procedure here. It is in the Defence hands if they
3 want to include those as part of the 92 ter package.
4 So if I could get clarification on that, the reason being
5 otherwise I may seek to tender one or two of those.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't see any reaction from the Defence, Mr. --
7 oh, now there is.
8 Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, we did not tender these documents,
10 indeed, but as for one document's relevant for one other witness we would
11 tender it with him. But -- and two other documents are indeed relevant
12 for this witness, and as far as I recall, both of them were confronted --
13 no, maybe one of them was not confronted with -- the witness was not
14 confronted with them --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: We --
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- but generally we could tender these documents.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: In the 92 ter proceedings, Mr. Zivanovic, there's
18 no particular need to show the documents to the witness again as they are
19 considered to be linked with the statement. In that way, that statement
20 becomes illegible or difficulty legible without the documents. So -- but
21 it's up to you. You want to tender the three documents, two documents?
22 One? None of them?
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender two documents, two documents with
24 this witness. It is his resignation and the one, the decision of the
25 government --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you give the --
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I could say their numbers.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just a moment, sorry. 1D1590 and 1D1296.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Those two documents are admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D195.187 and D196.187, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gillett.
8 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 WITNESS: BORIVOJE MILINKOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milinkovic. Firstly, as minister of culture
13 and religion in the government of the SBWS, your focus was on cultural
14 and religious matters; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You didn't interfere with the work of other ministries; correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. So the status of courts in SBWS, judicial courts, would be
19 outside the work of your ministry; right?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. The SBWS did have civilian courts up and running in November 1991
22 that could try people for crimes against civilians; right?
23 A. There were in the process of being established, but they could
24 already work and hold trials.
25 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, could I get document 1D1367, please.
1 And this is tab 8.
2 Q. Now, sir, this is a letter from Vojin Susa. He was the minister
3 of justice in the SBWS government; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You discussed this letter in your statement and you provided it
6 to the OTP when you were interviewed in 2003; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. GILLETT: And for Your Honours' note, this is the remaining
9 associated exhibit that the Defence did not tender.
10 Q. In the third paragraph, Mr. Susa states, and this is halfway in
11 the -- down the paragraph:
12 "It is certain that in all subsequent legal proceedings all
13 persons who have committed crimes against the armed forces will be under
14 the jurisdiction of military courts, but it is equally certain that
15 persons who have committed crimes against the civilian population will
16 have to be tried by the civilian courts that have subject matter and
17 territorial jurisdiction, namely, the ones that already exist and
18 function in the Serbian District."
19 That matches with the evidence you just gave, doesn't it, that
20 there were courts at that time in the SBWS?
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. It is not the same. The Prosecutor
23 mentioned the jurisdiction of the courts and it was about the existence
24 of the courts. It is not the same. In my understanding.
25 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, the witness is capable of answering
1 the question just as he answered my previous question as to whether there
2 were courts up and running.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: But it not reflect the content of the documents
4 in previous answer -- previous question and answer.
5 MR. GILLETT: The -- I'll ask one more question before I get to
6 the question I was going to ask.
7 Q. The document says in the passage I just quoted:
8 "... the ones," meaning the courts, "that already exist and
9 function in the Serbian district," that matches the evidence you just
10 gave a moment ago that there were courts that could already work and hold
11 trials; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. GILLETT: Your Honour, we would tender 1D1367.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3262, Your Honours.
16 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
17 Q. Sir, on Thursday during your testimony, we discussed the meeting
18 of 20 November 1991 in Velepromet; do you recall that?
19 A. I remember.
20 Q. You drove your own vehicle to the meeting; correct?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Was anyone with you in the vehicle?
23 A. Yes. There was somebody from my ministry, I believe an advisor,
24 Djordje Ocic. The name just came back to me.
25 Q. And you did not remember the name of the person with you when you
1 gave your statement in 2003. That's right?
2 A. No, because during those days -- during these days while I was in
3 the room, I cast my mind back to those details so it came back.
4 Q. And you drove from Dalj through Borovo to Vukovar for the meeting
5 but you were delayed for, I believe you said, 10 to 15 minutes because
6 you stopped to look at damage to churches; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, I made a turn to the Orthodox church.
8 Q. At the Velepromet meeting, the main issue was the prisoners who
9 had been arrested in Vukovar; right?
10 A. Yes, that's what I discussed.
11 MR. GILLETT: Could we play video P1731. This is tab 18, please.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have it.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is the first session of the
16 government held in our future capital, the capital of our region of
17 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. Regarding the conclusions, apart
18 from the ones related to the normalisation of life and the establishment
19 of a more or less normal situation, there is one basic conclusion that
20 the prisoners, Ustashas with blood on their hands, cannot leave the
21 territory of the Serb region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and
22 they cannot be driven to Serbia, since Serbia is not at war. Also, the
23 troops that assisted in the capturing, they are connected with the rest
24 of the ... unclear ... those were not the soldiers who were captured,
25 those were paramilitary formations, they can only be put to trial by
1 these people here, that is the people of our Serb region, which is
2 recognised, which has its courts. We even have a second-instance court,
3 the third instance might possibly be on the federal level, the Yugoslav
4 level, but we have our regional court and our municipal court.
5 Consequently, we have agreed with the military authorities that those
6 Ustashas remain in some of our camps here in the vicinity of Vukovar.
7 Since one group was already taken to Sremska Mitrovica, I undertook the
8 task to return those people here, if they can be called people at all, to
9 return them, to bring them back, and to have them put on trial, to find
10 out which ones among them are guilty, and those who are not shall
11 normally be released so they can join us in the reconstruction of our
13 "Reporter: How do you estimate the total number of those members
14 of the Croatian paramilitary formations? There were different figures
15 circulating. 200 surrendered two nights ago. Approximately 1.000 today
16 in the Borovo complex. What numbers are we talking about?
17 "Goran Hadzic: I believe the number is close to 3.000.
18 Approximately 3.000 of mainly uniformed Ustashas, although there are
19 still many hiding among the civilians. However, there are many honest
20 people among them as well. Our primary task is to investigate everything
21 and not to let anyone who is not guilty get hurt or be harassed. It is
22 better to have one culprit slip through than to harm somebody innocent.
23 That is our task. We have law enforcement and police forces and all the
24 bodies here, so we will work to prevent any persecution of innocent
1 MR. GILLETT: We will watch the remaining bit of the clip in a
3 Q. But before doing so, Hadzic said that there was one basic
4 conclusion from the meeting:
5 "... that the prisoners, Ustashas with blood on their hands, must
6 not leave the territory of the Serb region of SBWS and they cannot be
7 driven to Serbia, since Serbia is a state which is not at war."
8 And that's correct, that was the conclusion of the Velepromet
9 meeting; right?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Was Hadzic not telling the truth when he made that claim?
12 A. It sounds like a political statement of his. First of all, I'm
13 sure that that was not a session of the government, and if there had been
14 such a conclusion, I would have had it in writing. I mean, from that
15 session. But it was not connected to any sessions. This is just a
16 political statement.
17 Q. My question wasn't whether it was a political statement. It was
18 whether it was the truth, that there was one basic conclusion.
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. So to clarify, Goran Hadzic was not telling the truth, in your
21 evidence, in this interview?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Did you -- did you watch Goran Hadzic's testimony a few weeks
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I just noticed that the translation
2 of this document did not reflect the whole -- the whole statement of
3 Mr. Hadzic. Translation in e-court that was allegedly now presented to
4 the witness has only two pages. And the particular pages where
5 Mr. Hadzic spoke about the prisoners were not in e-court at all. I don't
6 know why.
7 MR. GILLETT: Mr. President, my questions were based on the audio
8 that had just been played that the witness listened to. I'm not aware of
9 a problem with the translation or original of the transcript of this in
10 e-court. If there is, we can certainly look at the break, and, of
11 course, the Defence are welcome to raise this in re-direct, should they
12 want to.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No. In the transcript, there is a [overlapping
14 speakers] --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic --
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- are you speaking about the transcript of this
18 video-clip or the transcript of the hearing today?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I speak about both. Because the Prosecution
20 referred to the P1731, and the P1731 as I read in e-court has not at all
21 the parts showed to the witness.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: So that's the transcript of the video-clip.
23 Okay. So that has to be clarified. Could --
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We just like to see whether the P1734 was shown
25 to the witness or something else. Because 1731, there is not the portion
1 that were translated in the transcript.
2 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, I'm looking at the transcript we have
3 from e-court of P1731, and on the relevant point which I was asking the
4 witness about, it says:
5 "There is one basic conclusion, that the prisoners, Ustashas with
6 blood on their hands," et cetera. It certainly appears to be the same to
7 me as what was just read out. And we've watched this video in court a
8 number of times. I'm -- this the first time I'm becoming aware that
9 there may be some discrepancy. So, again, it's something that if the
10 Defence wants to raise during the break, we're happy to look into it, but
11 I don't see it as a reason to interrupt the questioning.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I'll see that and whether we can
15 resolve it during the break and get back to you --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh. Thank you.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- if necessary.
18 MR. GILLETT: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
19 Q. My question, sir, was whether you had watched the testimony of
20 Goran Hadzic a few weeks ago in these proceedings?
21 A. No, I don't follow the trial at all.
22 Q. Now, although you say that Goran Hadzic's statement was not true,
23 that there was a decision made to keep the prisoners in SBWS, the
24 prisoners did, in fact, remain in SBWS, didn't they?
25 A. We could not command the military. The military decided as they
1 did. So yes, you are correct in saying that.
2 Q. And they were killed at Ovcara, weren't they?
3 A. I learned that only much later.
4 Q. When did you learn that?
5 A. A few years later. I didn't know that they were all killed. And
6 I learned that many years later.
7 Q. You said a "few years later," and then "many years later." Can
8 you be more specific and say when it was that you learned that the
9 prisoners at Ovcara had been killed?
10 A. Four or five years later, or perhaps three -- three years. Three
11 years for sure. Maybe even more.
12 Q. At paragraph 54 of your statement, you say:
13 "I first heard about the events that occurred at Ovcara around
14 1993. The first thing I heard was that some people had been killed
16 That would be two years, at the most, later than the events in
17 question, wouldn't it?
18 A. Well, between 1990 and 1993 is a space of three years; right?
19 Q. No one was tried or prosecuted or investigated by the SBWS
20 authorities for the mass killing at Ovcara, were they?
21 A. I don't remember that. I don't know whether anybody -- anybody
22 was ever put on trial for that. I don't think so.
23 MR. GILLETT: Could we play the rest of P1731, please.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Today we have made a first step, we
1 prepared ourselves for this step. I was a bit of an optimist, thinking
2 that Vukovar was not so devastated. Today, when I saw it, I think there
3 are no words to describe it but literally there is not a single undamaged
4 house. There are even corpses out in the streets. Thus, we firstly have
5 to have our Ministry of Health, actually, the agriculture, meaning the
6 veterinary, the veterinarians and doctors have to prevent the contagion,
7 to remove those, and then to start with the normalisation of life, which
8 is already prepared. We had an agreement with those people today, the
9 people who carried out the fights on their backs, those are the people
10 from the settlement Petrova Gora, without whom, so to say, this fight of
11 ours for Vukovar would have been lost. I am using this opportunity to
12 thank them for everything they have done. We have scheduled the next
13 meeting for tomorrow, with one group of ministers and the representatives
14 of those people, to find bodies and to establish the civil rule in the
15 town in an agreement with them. We have actually agreed with the
16 representatives of the military authorities that the military rule shall
17 not be established in Vukovar for a longer period, eventually only for a
18 couple of days. But it is planned that the civil authorities take over
19 the rule.
20 "The interviewer: Does it imply that you will remove your
21 uniform soon?
22 "Goran Hadzic: Well, I am a person, the representative of the
23 Serb people, who was elected by the Serbs. If the Serb people who
24 appointed me believe that borders we have now established are
25 satisfactory, I will remove it. But I personally believe that I should
1 keep it on for some time, since the Serb borders are much further from
2 where we stand now.
3 "Thank you for this conversation."
4 MR. GILLETT:
5 Q. Goran Hadzic's description of the devastated state of Vukovar
6 matches your own impressions when you first entered on 20 November 1991;
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. When Hadzic says:
10 "Well, I am a person, the representative of the Serb people, who
11 was elected by the Serbs," he doesn't refer to himself as a
12 representative of the Croats in SBWS, does he?
13 A. I don't know what was on his mind at that moment. However, by
14 just listening to his words, that seems to be the truth.
15 Q. And when he says:
16 "If the Serb people who appointed me believe that the borders we
17 have now are satisfactory, I will remove it. But I personally believe
18 that I should keep it on for some time, since the Serbian borders are
19 much further on from where we stand now," he doesn't refer to the
20 interests of the Croat people in SBWS regarding the borders, does he?
21 A. We never discussed borders so I don't know. We were still in
22 Yugoslavia at that time. I don't know what he meant.
23 MR. GILLETT: I see the time is for the break. Just one last
24 question, if I may.
25 Q. Since you were both members of the SBWS government, you and
1 Mr. Hadzic both have a common interest in denying that your government
2 had any discriminatory policies against non-Serbs; correct?
3 A. Not correct. Let me explain.
4 Q. Please.
5 A. Half of my family are Croats, as simple as that. The other half
6 are Serbs. I never thought that they -- that Croats should be
7 discriminated against because I would have to discriminate against my own
8 mother and half of my family, and we all shared the same living space.
9 Q. To avoid any confusion, do I understand your evidence to be that
10 you and Mr. Hadzic did not and do not have a common interest in denying
11 that your government had any discriminatory policies against non-Serbs?
12 Do I understand you correctly?
13 A. No, you did not understand me. The only thing I shared with you
14 was my own personal view. I don't know what Mr. Hadzic's position was or
15 the position of the government for that matter.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. -- Mr. -- [overlapping speakers] --
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: sorry. I would object to the question because it
19 implied that the government had a discriminatory policy and the witness
20 never confirmed that.
21 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, the witness has now answered, and I'm
22 satisfied with the answer on the record.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Milinkovic, we'll take the second break.
24 We'll come back in 30 minutes.
25 Court adjourned.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
4 MR. GILLETT: Just while the witness is being brought in, I
5 discussed with my learned friend, and there is no problem with the
6 transcript of the video, P1731. Thank you.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, gentlemen.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Gillett.
11 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, on Thursday in your testimony, you mentioned a
13 Mr. Milorad Stricevic, and you said:
14 "I know for a fact he was not a member of the military because he
15 did some other things. I know -- I knew him from before the war."
16 Stricevic was involved in criminal activities before the war;
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And he spent time in prison; right?
20 A. Yes, but I don't know why.
21 Q. You predicted my next question. We have a report here - that is
22 P113.1, we don't need to show it right now - but it notes that Stricevic
23 mistreated prisoners in Dalj in 1991. That's correct, isn't it?
24 A. Correct, yes.
25 Q. Did you know a Mr. Boro Berkovic?
1 A. Not Berkovic, not Boljkovic. Perhaps Borkovic.
2 Q. He also --
3 A. Perhaps Orlovic. I apologise. Orlovic.
4 Q. Again you have predicted my question. He also went by the name
5 of Boro or Bora Orlovic. Was this gentleman from Dalj?
6 A. He was, yes.
7 Q. [Microphone not activated] And he spent time in Germany; correct?
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 MR. GILLETT: Apologies, I heard some interpretation coming
11 Q. Sir, you spoke to Bora Orlovic in October 1991; right?
12 A. It is possible that I talked to him. I didn't really socialise
13 with him. He was prone to committing crimes.
14 MR. GILLETT: Could we now get P113.1. And this is tab 37B.
15 It's the public version of this report.
16 Q. And, sir, this is a report of the Vojvodina State Security from
17 15 October 1991.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think it is not -- it is not informed but --
20 report but information.
21 MR. GILLETT: I apologise. An information. We can call it an
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
24 MR. GILLETT:
25 Q. On page 2.4, which should be page 3 in the B/C/S, it states the
2 "Bora Berkovic, also known as Bosko Orlovic, a criminal from
3 Borovo Naselje, had lived for many years in the SRN, Federal Republic of
4 Germany, where he was involved in armed robberies and worked as a
5 body-guard for Centar [phoen], a criminal from Belgrade. In a
6 conversation, Berkovic claimed that Boro Milinkovic, minister for
7 religions of the Slavonia, Baranja, and West Srem SAO, had offered him a
8 certain amount of money in German marks to kill our source."
9 Now, sir, you were the minister of culture and religion in
10 October 1991; right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And you discussed killing this source with Bora Orlovic at that
13 time, didn't you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Sir, you were living in Dalj in 1993 still; correct?
16 A. I lived in Dalj all the time.
17 MR. GILLETT: I'm now going to turn to Exhibit P84.50. This is
18 tab 6. It's an article from July 1993 describing an interview with
19 Goran Hadzic. I have a blown-up version that I can provide to the
20 witness if that is agreeable to my learned friends.
21 Q. Now, sir, I've -- the first passage that I've highlighted on
22 page 1 about midway down --
23 MR. GILLETT: And could we have this on the screen, P84.50,
25 Q. While it comes up, the passage that I'm interested in says:
1 "During lunch, his body-guards sat at a neighbouring table and
2 the guests were joined by Bora, nicknamed Vrlja (Cross-Eyes), who is a
3 well-known fighter in this region, a member of the first government and
4 minister for culture."
5 That is you being described, isn't it?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. If we turn to page 3 of the English which should be the next
8 highlighted passage for yourself, the last column, second question down
9 in B/C/S.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could you please zoom in
11 on the text in B/C/S. Thank you.
12 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
13 Q. Hadzic is asked:
14 "How many Serbs are still in Croatia and do you still maintain
15 links with them?"
16 He answers:
17 "Around 500.000 people live in the Republic of Serbian Krajina
18 today. Thanks to Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, we have enough
19 food and oil resources for everyone. Therefore we have all the
20 conditions for normal life. As for the Serbs who have remained in
21 Croatia, these are Serbs or, rather, the former leadership of the
22 Communist party of which there are very few. The other Serbs who live in
23 Croatia are Serbian fascists who support Tudjman. They are loyal to his
24 authority and it is best that they remain there. An example of the
25 former is Dusan Dragosavac, and the latter, Milan Djukic. There are a
1 total of 50.000 such Serbs in Croatia. We do not need to co-operate with
2 such so-called Serbs. As for the Croats in the Republic of Serbian
3 Krajina, I do not know their number but few stayed here."
4 "Q. You have broken with some close associates. Why?
5 "A. The difference was obvious. For example, with some Serbs
6 from Western Slavonia. An example is Veljko Dzakula who sometimes
7 secretly negotiates with the Croats. He was in the government but our
8 concepts of the struggle were different from the beginning. He and his
9 supporters are no longer any kind of political force. They wanted to go
10 with cohabitation with the Croats, and we wanted to be neighbours only.
11 When it comes to Zdravko Zecevic, a former government member, he is an
12 honest Serb, but at one point he cannot find a solution. For us,
13 cohabitation with the Croats is treachery. We will never agree do this,
14 even if a new war begins."
15 Firstly, by this date, July 1993, is it correct that there were
16 very few Croats who were remaining in the RSK, Republic of Serbian
18 A. I can talk about my region. Very few of us were left. I can't
19 give you a broader picture. I can only talk about where I lived. I did
20 not have information as to what was going on in other parts of Krajina.
21 Q. And to clarify, when you say "very few of us," do you mean very
22 few Croats?
23 A. Yes. Again, I'm talking about only about the area where I lived.
24 I can't say anything about any of the other parts.
25 Q. When Hadzic refers to the Serbs remaining in Croatia - meaning
1 Croatian-controlled Croatia - he labelled these people as traitors
2 effectively based on where they were located; correct?
3 A. I cannot comment on what Mr. Hadzic might have thought and
4 whether this is authentic.
5 Q. So you cannot comment on what he meant when he talked about
6 cohabitation; correct?
7 A. That's right. I don't even remember that he said this. All I
8 know is what I'm reading from a newspaper. I cannot talk about things I
9 don't recall.
10 Q. Do you recall whether you joined Hadzic during this interview or
12 A. I remember that day, it was in Bogaljevci. I joined them. There
13 was Mr. Gulan whom I had been friends with for many years even before the
14 war. That's the man who wrote this interview. But it was informal. It
15 was talk over lunch, and I can't remember all the things that were said.
16 Q. And this article describes you as a well-known fighter in the
17 region, not a pacifist; correct?
18 A. Well, journalists, to make themselves important for making the
19 interview, liked to describe everybody as a fighter or a commander.
20 Gulan knows very well what kind of man I am.
21 Q. When you were testifying on Thursday last week, you were asked:
22 "Q. Do you recall a referendum as to whether the Serbs want to
23 remain within Yugoslavia or be annexed to some other country?
24 "A. No, no, no. We always wanted to remain within Yugoslavia."
25 That's at transcript page 11329.
1 Do you remember that testimony?
2 A. I remember.
3 Q. You went to Borovo Selo several times in July 1991; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 MR. GILLETT: I have another article. It's P3226. Again, I've
6 blown it up, so if my friends are agreeable, I'll pass this to the
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I agree. Sorry.
9 MR. GILLETT: Thank you.
10 Q. This is an article from 16 July 1991, describing the situation in
11 Borovo Selo and the SBWS. Now, if we look at the bottom of page 1 in
12 English --
13 MR. GILLETT: And could we get this on the monitor. This is
14 P3226, please.
15 Q. If we look at the bottom of page 1 in English, which should be on
16 the second page -- sorry, you only have one page in the blown-up version.
17 But for the electronic version it's the second page of B/C/S.
18 And it states:
19 "Instead of having a national council, Slavonia, Baranja, and
20 Western Srem have since recently had their own government. Goran Hadzic,
21 its president, says that its first task is for these areas to be joint to
22 Serbia as soon as possible."
23 It doesn't mention remaining within Yugoslavia, does it?
24 A. It's not mentioned here explicitly but it's a reference to
25 Yugoslavia, yes.
1 Q. If we move to the bottom of page 2 in the English version, and
2 this is the second-last box of text in the B/C/S, it states:
3 "Goran Hadzic announced an impending general Serbian uprising in
4 that part of Croatia, so 'everyone would share the same fate.'"
5 The Serb take-over of Dalj, in fact, occurred several days after
6 this article was published; correct?
7 A. I don't know about this statement, I wasn't aware of this
8 statement. I'm seeing it for the first time, and I knew nothing about
9 any impending uprising. We never discussed it.
10 Q. My question was about the dates. The article referring to
11 Hadzic's announcement is 16 July 1991, and the take-over of Dalj, which
12 you have referred to earlier in your testimony, occurred several days
13 after that, on 1st of August; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 MR. GILLETT: Your Honours, that ends my cross-examination.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gillett.
17 Re-direct, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milinkovic, in response to the questions
21 from the Prosecution, you said, among other things, regarding that time
22 when Goran Hadzic and Arkan arrived in Vukovar. I remember that series
23 of questions. You saw them together, you said.
24 Can you tell where you saw them together in Vukovar on
25 20th November?
1 A. I remember, they were inside by the entrance, standing shoulder
2 to shoulder.
3 Q. You mean by the entrance. Was it outside?
4 A. No, I mean indoors, in the room where the meeting was held.
5 Q. Did you have occasion to see some video footage or maybe
6 photographs from that meeting in Velepromet, in the yard of Velepromet,
7 where Goran Hadzic and Arkan and some other people were filmed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. The Prosecutor has shown you one video-clip, number 46038.2 [as
10 interpreted]. I'll repeat the number: 6338.2.
11 And you are in that footage too, remember?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. There were some objects on the table in front of you, some
14 lighters, and some other small items. And on them was the acronym NDH.
15 What's the meaning of that acronym?
16 A. It means "Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska," the Independent State of
17 Croatia. Our associations with that acronym are the times of
18 Ante Pavelic and all the atrocities that happened to us at that time.
19 Q. On one of those objects there was a letter U. What did that
21 A. That meant "Ustasha." It was an army allied with Hitler.
22 Q. Can you tell at that time, to the best of your knowledge, did
23 there exist any groups in Croatia that openly called themselves Ustashas?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I also noticed some inscription that said: "Bitter herbs on a
1 bitter wound."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And below that, "poglavnik," chieftain. What does this word,
4 "poglavnik," mean for both Croats and Serbs?
5 A. That meant Ante Pavelic, the Ustasha chief, the leader.
6 Q. Those objects that were filmed and photographed, that happened to
7 be in front of you there, where had they been found? How did they arrive
9 A. We got that from the people who had been captured.
10 Q. Last Thursday and earlier today you mentioned Milorad Stricevic.
11 Can you tell us, did he live in Dalj from before the war? How long have
12 you known him?
13 A. I've known him for a very long time. He lived for a long time in
14 Osijek before coming to Dalj. He married in Dalj and continued to live
15 there. I don't recall that he was politically active, except that when
16 we were establishing the SDS, he was setting up the Movement for
17 Yugoslavia. The full name is League of Communists - Movement for
19 Q. You also received some questions regarding the protest held on
20 the 15th of October, 1991, in Dalj. Did you hear any minister say that
21 he had attended that protest?
22 A. No, I did not. But I heard from some local residents in Dalj
23 that they did.
24 Q. Can you tell us, at that time, apart from you, was there any
25 other minister living in Dalj?
1 A. Only me.
2 Q. There were also some questions about the destruction of the
3 Catholic church in Dalj, and you said that you were emotionally attached
4 to the Catholic church in Dalj. Can you explain that?
5 A. I grew up in my childhood in that neighbourhood close to that
6 church. That's where we played. And on some saint's day, we had the
7 custom of going to the Catholic church, just like the Catholic church --
8 Catholic people went to our church on some holidays, so I was emotionally
9 attached to it because of my childhood memories.
10 Q. You mentioned earlier today that one of -- part of your family
11 are Croat. Who would that be?
12 A. Half of my family. My mother, my uncles, my cousins, my aunts.
13 We all lived there.
14 Q. You also answered some questions regarding Mr. Calosevic, and it
15 was put to you that he had mistreated non-Serbs. How did he treat Serbs?
16 A. He was a conflictual person, very -- very short-fused. It was
17 difficult even for Serbs to deal with him.
18 Q. And what was his relationship with Goran Hadzic? How did he act
19 with Goran Hadzic?
20 A. You mean Djoko, how did he treat Mr. Hadzic? Condescendingly.
21 Condescendingly. That was his style.
22 Q. Did he perhaps pin a nickname on Mr. Hadzic? Maybe not openly
23 addressed him with that nickname but used it on other occasions.
24 A. Yes, there was a cheeky nickname that he didn't use especially
25 provocatively. We all understand that kind of humour. He called him
1 Klato or Gogi.
2 Q. Nothing else?
3 A. Nothing that I can remember.
4 Q. Do you know if he ever served as Goran Hadzic's body-guard?
5 A. I'm sure he never did.
6 Q. You also spoke during cross-examination about something that
7 happened in Dalj in the course of 1992, the expulsion of Croats from
8 Dalj, and you said that after that happened, you learned more about it
9 from a Croat man who had also been among those expelled and came to visit
11 What exactly did he tell you and why did he come to visit you in
12 the first place?
13 A. He came to see me, just to see me. During one time in my life, I
14 was rather well-known in the community and I was on good terms with both
15 Croats and Serbs. So he just felt the need to see me and to tell me
16 about those events, and he told me about those people who expelled the
18 Q. Did he tell you on that occasion that you and your brother had
19 also taken part in this?
20 A. No. Well, he couldn't.
21 Q. You made a statement to the OTP, and you were asked questions
22 about that statement. Before signing that statement, did you have the
23 opportunity to read it in Serbian?
24 A. No, it was read back to me. I didn't read it myself because I
25 don't know English, so I signed what a person read back to me, but I
1 didn't see anything in writing.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session, please.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 11566 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Earlier today, we heard a question about the discriminatory
25 policies. Did you hear that the government pursued such policies against
1 the Serbs [as interpreted]?
2 A. No, we never discussed things in that way. There were a lot of
3 Croats who were in it together with us so there was no justification for
4 talking like that.
5 Q. I'd like to correct my own question: "Did the government pursue
6 such policies against the Serbs?" I meant non-Serbs. I want to avoid
7 any confusion. Can you please repeat your answer?
8 A. No. There were a lot of Croats in the police. For example,
9 Luka Cuncic [phoen] was a mechanic, a Croat, and my friend. He was a
10 member of the civilian protection as well. So we did not pursue any such
12 Q. Did you ever hear Goran Hadzic advocating discrimination of
14 A. No. Even in private conversations with Mr. Goran Hadzic, even
15 when we joked around, he would take the mickey out of me on that account.
16 But he never spoke negatively about Croats. He did speak negatively
17 about Ustasha but not Croats as a whole.
18 Q. You were shown an interview taken by a journalist whose name was
19 Gulan, I believe. Were you aware of that interview being recorded or was
20 he making notes during the interview?
21 A. No, no. Branislav Gulan often came to my place. He wanted to
22 take notes, and he loved taking notes. And on that day, there was lunch.
23 I happened to be there. I saw him, and I approached that table. Not
24 because of Mr. Goran Hadzic who was also there, but because of him,
25 because we were good friends. The atmosphere was very relaxed, it was a
1 friendly atmosphere, there was a lot of joking around. Nobody recorded
2 anything. It was not a formal interview. Nobody took any notes, or at
3 least I don't remember any such things.
4 Q. One more thing that I wanted to ask you. During the
5 cross-examination you said that a lot of Croats -- or, rather, non-Serbs
6 left the area where you lived. How many Serbs left at the same time; do
7 you know?
8 A. Quite a lot of Serbs left as well. I wouldn't know how many. I
9 wouldn't be able to give you a figure, but many left. Many went to
10 Germany, others to Austria. Quite a few of them went to Serbia as well.
11 Q. That would be all. Thank you, Mr. Milinkovic.
12 A. Thank you.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I've finished my re-direct, Your Honours. Thank
15 MR. GILLETT: Mr. President, I'm not sure if you had further
16 questions. If not, the Prosecution would respectively ask to ask two
17 very short questions just to clarify something that came out during the
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Go ahead. Very shortly.
20 MR. GILLETT: Thank you. Much obliged.
21 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Gillett:
3 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Milinkovic, this brings your testimony to an end. We thank
11 you for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal. You are now released
12 as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey home. The court usher will
13 escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is the next witness ready?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, Your Honour, we don't have the witness. The
18 next witness is not ready for today. He will come tomorrow. We
19 didn't --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: He will be there tomorrow morning at 9.00?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Mr. Gillett.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, I'm sorry. Bad eyes.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: There's too many of us here. Your Honour, good
2 With respect to the next witness, we do have an issue to raise
3 which just came up this morning. We received a two-page proofing note
4 which you must have received as well. There are a number of problems
5 that arise out of this proofing note. First of all, we note that the
6 witness was proofed over the weekend, on the 13th and 14th of September,
7 and we only received the proofing note this morning, two days after the
8 end of the proofing. At least that's what the proofing note states here.
9 So our first concern is that we receive proofing notes as soon as
10 possible in order to prepare.
11 Secondly, we noticed the length. Now, this witness is coming as
12 hybrid, a 92 ter hybrid witness. His statement is four pages and this
13 proofing note is two pages long, pretty much 50 per cent of the length of
14 the proposed 92 ter statement. We submit, Your Honours, that it defeats
15 the purpose of Rule 92 ter if in preparing these statements, counsel are
16 not thorough in asking questions to their 92 ter witnesses. We have
17 noticed that this witness was met twice this year. First in April and
18 then in the month of May to review and sign his statement. There is no
19 reason for statements which are purposely prepared for this case not to
20 be thoroughly explored with the witnesses.
21 Now, we object to the practice and especially in the
22 circumstances where the proofing notes come at the last minute and we
23 have to prepare, investigate, and look into the new material that is
24 coming across.
25 And, finally, Your Honours, there are two documents that are
1 mentioned in this proofing note which we have not been provided yet. We
2 requested them this morning and we have not received a copy.
3 So as can you see, there are a number of layers of complications
4 with this proofing note. And our point is that, first of all, we be
5 given advance notice or be given the proofing notes as soon as possible,
6 and that the documents be provided as well, and that, again, 92 ter
7 statements be prepared as fully as possible to avoid such problems.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I could just answer that I missed the date 15 of
9 September, when I also met the witness. It is not written in my proofing
11 As to other issues, I went with -- through -- through this
12 statement with the witness, and he gave me some additional information.
13 I put it in the proofing notes, and that's --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: And he didn't do so in April or in May,
15 Mr. Zivanovic?
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Such information, I have no such information in
17 April or in May. I got it here when proofing him.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: And what about the documents?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: These documents are, as far as I know, in
20 e-court. Maybe they are -- they have not been released yet. Both
21 documents are very, very short, just in few lines.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, do I understand that your
23 intervention is to avoid this kind of problems in the future?
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, yes. It's, number one, to avoid
25 such problems in the future to have 92 ter statements in a more thorough
1 fashion. But the documents themselves, the proofing note does not
2 indicate their 65 ter numbers. We sent an e-mail shortly after starting
3 court at 9.00 this morning to request these two documents and we still
4 have not received them five hours later.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It will be released as soon as possible. I think
6 immediately after the sitting. And I'm really not able to foresee what
7 would the witness say during the proofing.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We are discussing the documents now, so
9 what you are telling us is that the Prosecution will have them, let's
10 say, within a half an hour after the hearing? Is that right?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, Mr. Demirdjian, would that be sufficient for
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, for this time I believe that since
15 cross-examination is not going to take place today, I hope that I will be
16 able to cover all the issues in the proofing note. Perhaps our relief at
17 this stage is to remind the Defence and warn them to avoid such
18 situations again in the future.
19 I would say that half of the proofing note alone is probably
20 issues which expand on topics in the statement but there is also quite a
21 lot of information which is new. And that's where we face a problematic
22 situation. We have a prejudice in terms of investigating and looking
23 around this information less than 24 hours before the witness takes the
24 stand. So that is perhaps our relief at this stage to remind the Defence
25 of this --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one --
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If I may respond. I don't believe that there was
3 new information in my proofing notes. These are just clarification of
4 what the witness said. I don't know, I'm not aware of --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will not --
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- any new information he gave.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will not start a discussion on that for the
8 moment, Mr. Zivanovic. But I think that I voiced the warning that
9 Mr. Demirdjian asked for even if I didn't speak it out explicitly. But
10 we understand each other, don't we?
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 Mr. Demirdjian -- sorry.
14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Stringer here.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer. Definitely bad eyes.
16 MR. STRINGER: Your Honours, apologies, one last small
17 housekeeping matter and this is, I think, at the suggestion of the
18 Registry. Last week we had an MFI document that was then admitted into
19 evidence as P3252, once the translation was -- was corrected and put into
20 e-court. And I have been asked just to note for the record that the
21 document ID number for that is 0184-6450-ET. And that relates to what is
22 now Exhibit Number 3252, P3252, which had been 65 ter 1939.13.
23 So I hope I've said all the numbers that I'm supposed to.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: And these are -- this is the corrected
1 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: The verified one.
3 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 MR. STRINGER: I believe there was a missing footnote that has
6 now been restored.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Oh, yes, I remember, the missing footnote issue.
8 So if there is no objection, we will lift the -- the marked for
9 identification ...
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: And we would replace it with the -- with a new
12 exhibit number.
13 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. I would just inform the Court that we
17 released two documents. Two documents requested by Mr. Demirdjian.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 If that is all -- the new exhibit number, Madam Registrar.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: There is no new exhibit number.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
25 September, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.