1 Wednesday, 17 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour,
14 Judge Hall. For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Alexis Demirdjian,
15 Thomas Laugel, legal intern, Ljubica Vukcevic.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 We were told there were some administrative matters.
22 Mr. Stringer.
23 MR. STRINGER: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
24 We had a question about scheduling for next week. We noticed
25 that on the witness schedules that were distributed last Thursday by the
1 Defence, we have DGH-010 on for Wednesday and Thursday of next week. And
2 it seems somewhat ambitious in that there is a pending videolink motion
3 for that witness that still has not been ruled on. And so we're
4 wondering whether we do, in fact, need to prepare to cross-examine this
5 witness next week, and if not, who the witness would be that we would
6 need to prepare for.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, it is one of issues that I also
9 wanted to address to the Chamber.
10 Actually, we have, indeed, one problem with the next witnesses
11 because we have actually three group of witnesses. One group of them is
12 waiting for videolink; one -- another group is waiting for safe conduct;
13 and the third group is waiting for transfer.
14 We -- at the moment, we know that four of the witnesses waiting
15 for the safe conduct, these are Witnesses DGH-009, DGH-011, DGH-016, and
16 DGH-107 --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: 207 is?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 107.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: 100.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
21 For the them, the Prosecution did not take position as to our
22 safe conduct motion, and we'll do our best to put them on the witness
23 list either -- it is too late maybe for the next week but for the week
24 after that. For the week of 29 of September, I think, at least some of
25 them could be put on that list.
1 And for this week, the next witness is the last witness for this
2 week. We were not able to -- for the next week, we have just two
3 witnesses because I also think that the third witness isn't, and he's
4 videolink, is technically impossible to provide in such short term.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And I had one other issue, too. It's related to
7 the submission of Mr. Demirdjian yesterday. It is a part -- it's related
8 to one part of his submission. It is at the page 573 through 574. I'll
9 cite it.
10 "Your Honours, yes. It's, number one, to avoid such problems in
11 the future to have 92 ter statements in a more thorough fashion."
12 I don't know what kind of the future Mr. Demirdjian had on mind,
13 but I use this opportunity to say that all our Rule 92 ter statements
14 have been submitted, and we'll not prepare any other statement either in
15 more or less thorough manner.
16 I would also remind the Prosecution -- remind that the
17 Prosecution raised a similar objection in their response to our Rule 92
18 ter statements for this particular witness and the motion was granted.
19 In short, the Defence will comply with the Trial Chamber's decisions in
20 respect of Rule 92 ter statements but could not comply with the ambitious
21 request from the Prosecution. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
23 We will come back with regard to the scheduling issues probably
24 right after the first break.
25 The witness may be brought in.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the
5 Tribunal. First of all, do you hear me in a language you understand?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 Could you give us your name and date of birth, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Milenko Dafinic. I was
10 born on the 2nd of September, 1958.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Mr. Dafinic, you are to make -- you
12 are about to make the solemn declaration by which witnesses declare to
13 tell -- commit themselves to tell the truth. I must point out to you
14 that by doing so, you expose yourself to the penalty of perjury should
15 you give untruthful or false information. Could I ask you to make the
16 solemn declaration now the court usher will give to you.
17 WITNESS: MILENKO DAFINIC
18 [Witness answered via interpretation]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
22 Whose witness -- Mr. Zivanovic?
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. President, with your permission, I would
1 provide the witness with his witness statement.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Go ahead.
3 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dafinic.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Although the two of us have already met, I will introduce myself
7 for the record. My name is Zoran Zivanovic, and I represent Goran Hadzic
8 in these proceedings.
9 Mr. Dafinic, before you, you have your statement.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D2859.
11 Q. While we are waiting for the document to appear on the screen, I
12 would kindly ask you to look at all the pages in the statement and
13 ascertain that they have all been signed by yourself.
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I see on your witness list that
16 the statement is to be used under seal.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: No.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: 1D28 -- ah, okay. It's here.
22 Q. [Interpretation] You had an opportunity to look at your statement
23 and review it. Did you ascertain that your signature is on the bottom of
24 every page?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. After your arrival in The Hague, we met on three occasions, and
2 on those occasions you have provided me with some explanations of the
3 statement. Please look at paragraph 2 in your statement. In that part,
4 you spoke about the arrest of Goran Hadzic and Borivoje Savic at Plitvice
5 in 1991 and on the erection of barricades in Borovo Selo. Were there any
6 talks about the removal of those barricades? If so, who was involved in
7 those talks?
8 A. Yes, there were talks about removing the barricades involving
9 Vukasin Soskocanin and Marko Loncarevic, and that was conditional on the
10 release of Goran Hadzic and Boro. They said that in that case the
11 barricades would be removed.
12 Q. And who did they talk to? Could you please tell us? I mean
13 Soskocanin and --
14 A. As far as I know, they went to Sarvas or to Aljmas, and I think
15 that they spoke to Kir from Osijek, who was either the chief of police or
16 something else. Kir, Josip Kir, Kir, Kir. In any case, he was from
18 Q. In paragraph 3, you said that you couldn't say that Soskocanin
19 was the commander of village guards in Borovo Selo. And can you please
20 tell us what was his relationship with those guards?
21 A. Well, I can put it this way: Everybody knew him. And he was
22 held in high esteem. People respected him and listened to him. He was
23 more like a co-ordinator, not commander. People came to him to ask for
24 advice. He co-ordinated them. He told some of them to go in the
25 direction of Dalj and Savulje, the others to Crepulja, the third group
1 was sent to the railway, and so on and so forth.
2 Q. In paragraph 4 you said, inter alia, that Soskocanin received
3 weapons. How did you know that? How did you learn that?
4 A. I was very good friends with Soskocanin. Actually, he was my
5 best man. He trusted me. He told me that he had brought weapons, and he
6 asked me whether I would like to join them and to take weapons. The
7 situation was as it was. I accepted that wholeheartedly. He gave me an
8 old Thompson which I couldn't even handle. I needed to be explained how
9 to use that weapon. It was an old automatic rifle or something like
11 Q. When you say that the situation was what it was, could you please
12 explain. What was the situation like at the time when you accepted to
13 take the weapon that was offered to you?
14 A. The situation was rather tense. At that time, I was fired from
15 work. I was made redundant. But that was based on my Serb ethnicity.
16 We withdrew and we -- and they put chequer-boards on their caps
17 instead of five-pointed stars. We were not happy with that. We were
18 against that symbol, the symbol of the chequer-board. We wanted them to
19 sport five-pointed stars on their police caps. Those were Yugoslav
20 symbols and we were in favour of Yugoslavia.
21 Q. And I understand your position. And why did you accept the
22 rifle? Did you feel threatened?
23 A. Yes. We all took weapons because on one occasion a group of us
24 gathered. It was an SDS gathering, and they came with weapons to dispel
25 our gathering. There were some 20 or 30 police officers and an incident
1 ensued. Truth be told, they didn't open fire on us or, vice versa, we
2 didn't open fire on them. However, there was lot of shoving and pushing.
3 We almost got into a physical fight. Bullets were fired into the air but
4 nobody was injured. I suppose that they just wanted to intimidate us.
5 Q. In paragraph 6, it is stated that the school was about 500 metres
6 away from the centre of the village. I believe that you wanted to
7 correct something there. What is the distance between the school and the
9 A. The Bozidar Maslaric elementary school and the Cadjava Mahana
10 cafe, the distance is about 200 to 250 metres. The length of a football
11 pitch. It is not 500 metres. There are two streams between them, each
12 of them 100 metres. So the distance between the school and the centre of
13 the village, the local commune building or the Cadjava Mahana cafe was
14 about 200 metres.
15 Q. In paragraph 7, you described an incident which happened in
16 Borovo Selo on the 1st of May when two Croatian police officers were
17 captured because they wanted to remove the flag that was hoisted there on
18 the 1st of May which was a bank holiday. You said that the two them were
19 taken way by Stevo Bogic who handed them over to the local police in
20 Novi Sad. Did he do it on his own? Was he alone when he took those two
21 men away or did somebody else go with him? Could you please describe the
23 A. A correction. On the 1st of May, they wanted to remove that
24 flag -- or, rather, on the eve of the 1st of May. And Stevo Bogic told
25 me that he did not transport them himself. It was Veselko Petricevic who
1 did that. He was the son of a fisherman. And also Dragan Gacic
2 transported them. Petricevic had a car, a Opal car, which he parked on
3 the Serbian side. However, they did not transport them in the car but by
4 boats. That's what I was told.
5 Milenko Lazarevic, also known as Suljo, was also there. And he
6 told me that they then transported them by cars, they had weapons, and
7 then somewhere around the village of Futog as they were entering Novi
8 Sad, they were stopped by a police patrol. They said that they had two
9 wounded police officers in the car. According to them, they did not
10 believe that until they approached the car and then they took them to the
11 police station. And Stevo Bogic complained to me that he had to spend as
12 much three hours at the Novi Sad SUP when his statement was being taken.
13 That's what he told me. And that same story was shared by Suljo
14 Lazarevic or Milenko Lazarevic.
15 Q. In paragraph 9, you state that the Danube crossing was controlled
16 by Serbian police. Was somebody in charge of that police team that
17 controlled the border crossing from Borovo Selo to the Serbian side?
18 A. Yes, I can tell you that. At that time the Serbian people were
19 in a state of panic. The women and the children were particularly afraid
20 and started fleeing and finding shelter with their relatives and
22 I also crossed the border, and on the other side, I met a man
23 whose name was Nenad Bogunovic, aka Neso. He controlled the situation
24 very well. He controlled the people who were crossing. On the way back,
25 he again controlled us. He wanted to know who we were before he could
1 let us go. He did not allow some people to cross. I suppose that they
2 were not either from Borovo Selo or any of the neighbouring villages.
3 They came from Palaca, Vera, Trpinje. All of them crossed across Borovo
4 Selo and then they crossed the Danube to the other side.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise for the interruption, Your Honours.
6 Could we just have the name which was not recorded here. At page 8,
7 line 20, the witness says:
8 "I have Veselko," he was the son of a fisherman. The name hasn't
9 been recorded. If it's possible to have that name, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Okonja, he was a bar
11 owner. Veselko Petricevic. His family name was Petricevic, and his name
12 was Veselko.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Dafinic, let's just correct the names because they have all
15 been misrecorded or not recorded at all.
16 First of all, let us repeat the names of those persons who,
17 together with Stevo Bogic, transported the police officers and handed
18 them over to the Novi Sad police. You mentioned their names in
19 paragraph 7 in your statement. What were their names?
20 A. I said Stevo Bogic, Dragan Gacic, Veselin Petricevic, nicknamed
21 Okonja, O-k-o-n-j-a. That was his father's nickname too which he
23 Q. Could we repeat the name of Dragan Gacic. It was recorded as
25 A. Yes, it is Gacic.
1 Q. And could you repeat the surname of Veselin.
2 A. The surname is Petricevic, nicknamed Okonja.
3 Q. You also mentioned some villages from which people came crossing
4 the Danube and we miss also the name of the villages.
5 A. Trpinje, Bogota, Vera, Silas. All those Serbian villages. Also
6 Palaca. They came from all over the place. There were not enough boats
7 to carry all those people.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just think that Trpinja -- before Trpinja, it
9 is the answer of the witness. It is line 20. It is written as part of
10 my question.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed. It will be corrected,
12 Mr. Zivanovic. Thank you.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. In paragraph 11, you say your family were living as refugees in
15 Sabac. Can you tell us more precisely, did they continuously live as
16 refugees in Sabac and until when?
17 A. My family were staying with some relatives in Sabac. I don't
18 know exactly how long. It was a long time ago. For seven or eight
19 months. And I was beginning to think they were a burden to our relatives
20 so I moved them to Backa Palanka. And my children who were in the
21 seventh and eighth grade enrolled in school there, and I moved them to
22 Backa Palanka so I could visit them more easily. They were staying with
23 a man called Boca who had a restaurant and another man called Vojo who
24 was putting up two families. They stayed there for two or three years,
25 coming back when the situation would calm down, and then when the
1 shooting started again, they would go back. I was afraid for my family,
2 like everybody else. There was also a camp in Delibarska Pescara where
3 there were about 500 and some women and children, and they stayed for a
4 while there too.
5 Q. In addition to your wife and children, did other women and
6 children also leave Borovo Selo?
7 A. Yes, in large numbers. There were not enough boats, so they
8 found -- they established a ferry line where more people could cross at
9 one time. It was our only link to Serbia to go shopping for food.
10 People were then able to take their cars on the ferry and visit their
11 relatives in Serbia. Some people went to big population centres, some
12 went to the country, to the country-side.
13 Q. In paragraph 12, you said you knew well Vukasin Soskocanin, that
14 you had a Kum relationship. That you were best men to each other?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How long did you know him?
17 A. Soskocanin family had this Kum relationship with our family, the
18 Dafinic family, for generations. Our grandfathers and great-grandfathers
19 were also in the same Kum relationship. We were always best men to each
20 other. You could say for a hundred years.
21 Q. Did Soskocanin do his compulsory military service?
22 A. No, he did not. I know that.
23 Q. What was his health like, if you know?
24 A. He had some heart trouble. He would take some pills under his
25 tongue. I don't know what they're called. Something like glycerin.
1 That's probably why he didn't do his military service, although I never
2 asked. It's just my assumption.
3 Q. In paragraph 14, you say you participated in the fighting for
4 Dalj. Can you describe your participation?
5 A. I can. Marko Loncarevic came to see me, and he is a native of
6 Dalj. And he said, "We are fed up with this ferry service and all these
7 crossings. We are going to organise an attack on Dalj so we can use the
8 bridge," and asked me if I was willing to be part of his group. And I
9 answered why not. Andric, Relja, was also in that group. There were
10 also some two brothers, one of whom later got killed, Branko Marinovic,
11 the singer Alic. I can't remember all the men.
12 Anyway, he took us along the Danube until we reached the first
13 houses. We could only see the barking of dogs -- hear the barking of
14 dogs; we couldn't see anyone. We reached a brook called Jama and he
15 deployed us there saying, "If the Ustashas come, the members of the ZNG,
16 the Croatian Home Guards, don't let them through. Open fire."
17 After a short while he left us, and I didn't even see him
18 anymore. We stayed there for a certain time. I can't remember, an hour,
19 two, three, four hours, when we heard shooting from somewhere. There was
20 no shooting from our side. This brook, this canal, Jama, was near the
21 police station. We couldn't across this brook because the water was
22 high. And then I heard not a tank but an APC hit the police station.
23 There was very strong fire opened at the police station.
24 That's approximately all I saw there. I didn't see that but I
25 heard that the policemen later surrendered, and they were loaded onto
1 that APC, the fighting was over, there was no more shooting, and with
2 that group that I had arrived with I turned back and went back to
3 Borovo Selo. It was already 11.00 or 12.00. Borovo Selo was 7 to 8
4 kilometres away.
5 Q. Could you clarify two points in this answer. Did you see the
6 projectile from the APC hit the police station or did you hear it?
7 A. We just heard and we saw the dust and smoke. We only had
8 infantry weapons. So by the sound of that explosion, I supposed that it
9 was a shell. I was not close enough to see but there was a cloud of dust
10 and smoke, so I supposed that it must have been fired from a tank or an
11 APC or whatever.
12 Q. Can you tell us from this river Jama, can you see the police
14 A. You can see through just a little bit. You can't see all of it.
15 Q. And when you said you returned around 11.00 or 12.00, are you
16 talking about a.m. or midnight?
17 A. No, I'm talking about a.m. and noon. If it was night-time, I
18 would have said 2200 hours or midnight.
19 When we first got there, we heard the noise of APCs. The
20 shooting started only later. But you know tanks and APCs are very noisy.
21 You can hear that, of course.
22 Q. If you could please look at paragraph 16 now. You say that you
23 were part of the security detail serving the government.
24 A. At this place we called Dvorac mentioned.
25 Q. And you said that on one occasion you did not let
1 Radovan Stojicic, Badza, and Arkan enter the government headquarters
2 armed. Can you describe this occasion? Was it one occasion when they --
3 both them came together, or were these separate occasions?
4 A. Those were two separate occasions. When we came to serve as
5 guards to the government, I believe it was September, and just five or
6 ten or maybe even 20 days later, that man came, introduced himself. He
7 said, "I am Radovan Stojicic, I want to get in." I told him, "You can't
8 get in carrying a weapon, and it's late, there is nobody left here." He
9 said, "There must be someone," and I replied, "We are security for the
10 government. We would tell you if there was anyone inside." So he drove
11 back in his Pajero jeep.
12 After a while, Zeljko Raznjatovic arrived but also very late at
13 night when there was nobody inside, and I told him the same as I had said
14 to Badza, "You cannot enter with your weapons, and whoever you are
15 looking for, they're not there. You can come back tomorrow." He just
16 turned back and left. At that time I didn't even know it was Arkan. And
17 he didn't say his name. Stojicic did introduce himself. Arkan did not
18 say anything. He just wanted to get in.
19 Q. Did you know when Radovan Stojicic introduced himself, did you
20 know who he was? Had you seen him before that?
21 A. No, I didn't know who he was. Later I learned, but at that time
22 I didn't know. At that time I didn't know all these people. They were
23 all the same to me.
24 Q. During our first interview, you showed me copies of some official
25 identity cards that you had; three copies to be precise. Let us look at
1 them now.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D3429.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the copies. It's better now
4 that you enlarged it.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you now look at the first one at the very top. You've
7 described it in paragraph 19. Could you please look at paragraph 19 in
8 your statement -- in your copy of the statement. Is this the ID that you
9 mentioned in that paragraph?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. When did you receive this ID?
12 A. When I arrived there, five, ten, or 15 days later. I don't
13 remember when exactly.
14 Q. It says on this ID "permanent permit." What does that mean?
15 A. Well, this was my function, security in the government. And it
16 was valid as a permanent pass because there were military and police
17 check-points, and this allowed me to move about more easily. For
18 instance, when I went home or when I escorted a government member. When
19 I was stopped, I would show them this ID and they would know immediately
20 what I was doing. If I didn't have that pass, I was supposed to have a
21 military booklet and a pass issued by the military.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise for interrupting Mr. Zivanovic.
23 Could we have a more precise answer to your question when you asked:
24 "When did you receive this ID?"
25 The witness does not give us any time-frame. He just says "five,
1 ten, 15 days later." But could we have a month or a year or something
2 more precise, please.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Well, I think that the witness answered the
4 question, and it did not say about month and years. He was precise
5 enough, and he clearly stated that he could not say precisely how many
6 days after they took this position to provide security to the government
7 he got this particular document.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, you will have discretion for
9 cross, eventually.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I can definitely deal with it in
11 cross. It's just that at this stage we're left in the dark.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. One more thing about this pass. To what extent could you use it
14 as a permit to cross military and police check-points? Those people who
15 manned those military and police check-points, did they respect this kind
16 of ID?
17 A. Yes, some did. Some didn't.
18 Q. Thank you. And now can we go to the following paragraph. And
19 can you also look at the middle image on your screen. This ID does not
20 depict a date. Can you try and remember when you were given this ID?
21 A. I suppose that it was at the beginning of 1992.
22 Q. You will see in the text -- the letters are a bit small. Maybe
23 it is not as easily legible as it could be.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If it could be zoomed in a
1 Q. It says:
3 "The bearer of this identity card is authorised to check the
4 identity of citizens and bring them before a responsible organ, to enter
5 apartments..." And so on and so forth.
6 Look at the text carefully and then tell us whether you have ever
7 exercised any of these authorities.
8 A. No, I didn't not exercise any of the authorities because I never
9 had an opportunity to do that, but this was a staple authorisation of the
10 MUP of Serbia and it -- you could find it on every MUP ID. This is a
11 conventional official ID issued for officials. It is more serious, as it
12 were, than the previous one; for example, it allowed you to cross the
13 bridge more easily. But I never had an opportunity to use it, no.
14 Q. I think you are talking about the ID, that it had more power?
15 A. Yes, it had more power at check-points.
16 Q. Yes, I understand. And can you now look at the authorisation
17 that I've just showed you and read out from. Do you know if people from
18 the government security exercised those authorities; for example, did
19 they bring people in or entered people's apartments?
20 A. Nobody from my group did. I never heard of anybody having done
22 Q. If you were to look at paragraph 21 now. You said that in 1992
23 you received a new ID from Ilija Kojic but that you quickly returned them
24 and that you do not have a copy of that ID.
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. During our meeting here in The Hague, you gave me a copy of that
2 ID card. When did you find it?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D3756.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I think we might have a problem.
5 Your last intervention has not been recorded, neither understood.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Oh. May we have please 1D3756.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I don't believe this document is on the
11 Defence's 65 ter list. I'm not sure if there has been an application on
12 this matter.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's correct. And thank you for... we obtained
14 this and one more document from the witness two or three days ago, and we
15 didn't file, indeed, our motion to amend our Rule 65 ter list. So I
16 would ask the Chamber to permit amending of this list with these two
17 documents, with 1D3756 and 1D3755.
18 And thank you to my colleague.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, in relation to this document, we
20 don't have an objection.
21 In relation to the second one, 1D3755, I believe, we are not
22 entirely sure of the relevance of that document. Perhaps we can deal
23 with it when the subject comes up, but at this stage we do object to its
24 addition to the 65 ter list.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just can say that 1D3755 just illustrates the
2 jurisdiction for the issue of the permission for the crossing the bridge,
3 and it may -- it might be relevant for the Defence case.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: I suppose you will use it with the witness and
5 tender it; right?
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, that's correct.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: So then we will decide your 65 ter request.
8 For the other document, the 3756 one, the 65 ter request is
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] We have the date when this ID card was issued.
12 Is this the ID card to which you refer in paragraph 21 which you didn't
13 have then when you gave the statement and you have it now?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: And if we could go back to the previous document.
16 It is 1D3429.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Let's look at the document at the bottom of the
18 page. The last copy of that ID. There is a date here, the 24th of
19 April, 1996. That's when the ID card was issued, and we can see here
20 that your function was to provide security for the president of the
21 province. Who was that at the time?
22 A. Goran Hadzic. I was his driver and a body-guard.
23 Q. The date that we see on the screen is the date when you started
24 working as his driver and body-guard; right?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document and
2 the document 1D3756 into evidence.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits D197 and D198.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In paragraph 16, which I skipped --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Oh, sorry.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: May I remind you that you have 15 minutes left
11 for your examination-in-chief.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I'll do it.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just to let you know.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, thank you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: In due time.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I skipped paragraph 16 in your statement. In
18 this paragraph, you say that while you provided security for the
19 government in Erdut you also slept there. Where exactly did you sleep?
20 A. At the entrance to the manor, there were two rooms. There were
21 four beds in one of them and three or four in the other. That was at the
22 very entrance to the manor. And there was also a reception desk. That's
23 where we slept.
24 Q. In paragraph 27, you mentioned Zarko Aleksic. You say that he
25 spent very little time in the government security. You said that
1 Stevo Bogic caught him red-handed and removed him from the security
2 detail. What did you mean when you said that he was caught red-handed
3 while stealing?
4 A. There was no fuel at first. But it was not I who caught him. It
5 was Stevo who did it. Stevo caught him while stealing fuel from a fuel
6 tank. And then we had automatic rifles in the room, we had our pistols
7 also, but we never took any of them out unless needed. So he stole
8 ammunition from our only own weapons, from our own rifles and pistols.
9 So I know that Stevo chased him away; Stevo Bogic. He caught him
10 red-handed and he didn't want him in the group anymore.
11 Q. Could you now tell us about paragraph 16 where you mentioned the
12 people who provided security for the government. You mention him as
13 well. And you also mention Dragan Lazarevic, Suljo.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who was there for only a couple of days?
16 A. Yes, a couple of days. Not more than that.
17 Q. And you said that Susanj -- that Soskocanin and Zarko Aleksic
18 joined you later. Why did Dusan Soskocanin and Zarko Aleksic join you?
19 Was there something special going on?
20 A. When Lazarevic, aka Suljo, left, he opened a bar. San Marino was
21 the name of the bar that he took over from somebody. Sinisa Gajic, also
22 known as Gaja, was with Aleksic in the same room and then he left. Ten
23 or 15 days later he decided that he didn't like the situation. It was a
24 long time ago. Gajic also left. And Aleksic was then chased away. So
25 Dusko Soskocanin, the youngest brother of the other Soskocanin, and
1 Pero Rakas filled up their places. Relja Andric also joined us to fill
2 the vacancies. Relja was the driver who drove Bogic around, whereas the
3 rest of us were providing security for the facility.
4 Q. Just one more question about the last paragraph, paragraph 31.
5 You said that you didn't remember the date when you left Croatia. Did
6 you in the meantime remember when that was?
7 A. Yes. That was after the -- or at the beginning of the peaceful
8 reintegration in 1997. I believe that it was in the month of July. I'm
9 not sure. I believe so. Either in July or in August. At the beginning
10 of that or during that peaceful reintegration.
11 Q. It doesn't matter that much now. Mr. Dafinic, let me ask you
12 just two more things.
13 First of all, what is written in your statement and what you've
14 said today, is that truthful to the best of your recollection?
15 A. To the best of my recollection, it is true.
16 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions today as I did when
17 you were giving the statement, would your answers be the same as then
18 with the corrections you've made today on the record?
19 A. With those corrections, yes, because some things come back to me
20 as we speak.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document, this
22 statement into evidence. It is 1D2859.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Again, Mr. Zivanovic, you spoke too hasty.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I suppose you would tender the statement.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I tender --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Witness statement.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender this witness statement. It is
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D199, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Since we have very little time left, I wanted to clear up one
10 more thing. You said that already on the 2nd of May the Yugoslav
11 Peoples' Army came to Borovo Selo. Tell me, what was the relationship
12 between the residents of Borovo Selo and the Yugoslav Peoples' Army in
13 this period?
14 A. It was disappointing. We had, for instance, moved towards
15 Borovo Naselje about ten times. When we would advance, the tanks would
16 first support us, then retreat, and people would get killed. We had lot
17 of people killed, about 80 or 90, 190 were wounded. This Branko Ciric
18 would inform us where the attack was, then this lieutenant or captain
19 would say, "Go in this direction, advance," and then we would retreat. I
20 can hardly describe how horrible it was. We were very angry with the
21 army. We thought that after all those videos we had seen about the
22 Croats arming and Martin Spegelj, we thought that the army would come
23 very quickly. They will disarm everybody and things would be resolved
24 quickly, but --
25 Q. If you could just tell us, again. You said approximately how
1 many people were wounded and killed in Borovo Selo. Could you repeat the
3 A. Around 250 or 260 wounded and 69 or 79 killed. There is a book
4 about that and a memorial to all those killed who were young people
5 between 20 and 40. They had families and children.
6 Q. Just one more question: Did you participate in this fighting?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dafinic. I have no further questions.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I've finished my direct. Thank
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Zivanovic.
12 Mr. Demirdjian, how about taking the break now and still come
13 back at 11.00, which would give us a little bit more time to look into
14 the scheduling issues and be able to answer those -- your questions right
15 after the break. I suppose that you will still be able to finish your
16 cross-examination within the two next sessions.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I believe so, Your Honours. Yes. It shouldn't
18 be a problem.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. If that's suitable for everyone,
20 court adjourned. We come back at 11.00.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: We looked into the scheduling issues. The safe
25 conduct motion was briefed only two days ago, and the decision will be
1 filed before the end of this week.
2 The videolink Witness 010, the Defence already dealt with it.
3 Indeed, it will not be feasible to have a videolink established if it
4 would be -- if the request would be granted. The decision will also be
5 filed before the end of this week.
6 The conclusion is that it seems that we will have an even shorter
7 hearing week next week than we had this week.
8 Mr. Zivanovic, unless you could fill in the gaps with viva voce
9 or 92 ter witnesses that would be ready eventually and for which the
10 Prosecution would be ready as well, and we would certainly encourage you
11 to try to organise that.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We'll do our best, Your Honour. That's
13 everything that I could say at this point of time.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: All right.
15 The witness may be brought in -- oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Stringer.
16 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President. Thank you.
17 Just -- recognising that the issue of witness scheduling is
18 always fluid, and we understand that, but the fact is that the Chamber
19 has been presented with an unprecedented number of videolink motions in
20 this case, possibly an unprecedented number of motions for safe conduct,
21 and, in addition, a number of motions for transfer of witnesses who are
22 in custody. And, again, recognising that it's fluid, I think that in
23 respect of Witness 10, this is a situation that could have been avoided,
24 and we're -- the Prosecution's going to insist on getting the time, the
25 notice, that it's entitled to under the Rules.
1 We're concerned, in particular, about the transfer witnesses
2 being brought on dates with the result being that the Prosecution has
3 less than the full advance notice that it's entitled. These are big
4 witnesses, Mr. President. The transfer witnesses that we brought, the
5 dates of their testimony were known to the Defence months in advance.
6 And we're concerned about the way that this could possibly be managed in
7 a way that in order to fill the court schedule, it could result in the
8 Prosecution getting less preparation time for its cross-examinations, and
9 so I just wanted to mention that because this is something that we do
10 have concern about.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: I understand your concern, Mr. Stringer, and
12 that's certainly not the purpose when I asked Mr. Zivanovic to try and
13 organise to fill the gaps. Your position should indeed be respected and
14 you should have the time you need to prepare for witnesses and with all
15 the consequences that that entails.
16 If nothing else, we can bring in the next witness. Thank you.
17 Well, it's not the next witness. It's the witness.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please be seated, Mr. Dafinic.
20 Mr. Demirdjian, for cross.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
23 Q. Good morning.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Sir, I have a few topics to deal with on behalf of the
2 First of all, can I ask you a few background questions. During
3 the war, could you tell us in which part of Borovo you lived exactly?
4 Sorry, prior to the start of the conflict. Not during the war. Prior to
5 the start of the conflict, which part of Borovo did you live in?
6 A. In the centre. Palih Boraca Street, number 12. It is the inner
8 Q. Is this close to the city Orthodox church?
9 A. Just by the Orthodox church.
10 Q. Very well. Another background question, sir. At the time in
11 1991, were you married and was your wife's name Jovanka Blagojevic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Now at paragraph 16 of your statement, you talk about
14 the creation of this security unit which was headed by Stevo Bogic. Now,
15 can I assume that this was created in September 1991 around the time that
16 the government was created?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in this paragraph you mentioned a number of names of members
19 of this unit. You talked about them this morning, too. Now, I see that
20 Dragan Lazarevic's nickname was Suljo, and I'm trying to see if any of
21 the others had a nickname. Could you help us with that? For example,
22 Sinisa Gajic, was he known as Gaja.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Did David Cesic have a nickname?
25 A. Ceso.
1 Q. Okay. Here you have Pero -- it's spelled Raks; is that correct?
2 A. No, Rakas.
3 Q. And what was his nickname, if he had any?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. And Zarko Aleksic, did he have a nickname?
6 A. The Marine.
7 Q. And finally, Dusan Soskocanin, did he have a nickname?
8 A. Duci, D-u-c-i.
9 Q. Now, according to the statement, Witness, you were born in 1958
10 which means that in 1991 you were around 30 years old, and so was
11 David Cesic; correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. How old was Sinisa Gajic at the time?
14 A. I don't know. He's two or three years younger than I.
15 Q. Okay. And is it correct that Zarko Aleksic was pretty young,
16 much younger than you, perhaps around 20 years old?
17 A. Yes. All these people whom you enumerated formed a circle of
18 friends in the village, and this Zarko Aleksic was much younger that I,
19 12, 13 years, maybe more. I didn't even know him until then.
20 Q. Now this circle of friends that you mentioned, did that include
21 also Pero Rakas?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Okay. And was Rakas also around your age?
24 A. Yes. He was born in 1958, I think.
25 Q. Very well. Now are you still in contact with the -- this circle
1 of friends that you mentioned who are around your age?
2 A. Well, I am in contact with Cesic because he lives not far from
3 me. Sinisa Gajic was killed in an involuntary homicide. I don't see
4 Suljo anymore; he lives in Novi Sad. With Relja Andric, I see him
5 sometimes. He comes to my family celebrations, I go to his, et cetera.
6 Q. And you just said a moment ago Mr. Cesic lives not far from you.
7 Which town do you live in currently?
8 A. Now I live in Novi Sad. The neighbourhood is called Sajlovo --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name of the
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 17th Street, number 7.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
13 Q. Very well. Now, in your statement, and that's at paragraph 27,
14 you mention that Zarko Aleksic spent little time in the government
15 security. And could you tell us what does that mean, "little time"? Do
16 you have a time-frame in mind?
17 A. Well, after all this time, I can't remember exactly but it was
18 10, 15 days, maybe a month. It was a very long time ago, and it wasn't
19 important to me.
20 Q. Now this morning you also said that Sinisa Gajic left and that
21 Suljo also left.
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Now, sir, these are details that we found out for the first time
24 this morning and these are not incorporated in your statement. Is there
25 any reason why?
1 A. There is no reason. They were not happy with the job. They were
2 bored. They just did not want to do that.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. In the witness statement in paragraph 16,
5 it is explicitly said that Dragan Lazarevic, Suljo, left after a few
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The copy that I have says he came a few days
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No. I can't see the English translation.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In this paragraph --
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It's not correct. It's not correct. It is an
12 error in translation. In the original or B/C/S text, it says he left
13 after "onja" [phoen] -- I'll read it in B/C/S.
14 "With Dragan Lazarevic, aka Suljo, who left after a couple of
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, I've been misled by the translation, then.
17 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to move on to Mr. Goran Hadzic. Since when do
18 you know him?
19 A. I met Zoran [as interpreted] Hadzic after he was released at
20 Plitvice. I met him in Vukasin Soskocanin's house.
21 Q. And that's the first time you met him?
22 A. I don't understand.
23 Q. Was that the very first time that you encountered Mr. Hadzic?
24 A. Yes. That was the first time.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, just on the basis of this error of
1 translation that we have in the statement, I would ask that this
2 statement be revised and MFI'd pending a revision to ensure that we have
3 an accurate English translation, because this is quite an important
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will MFI the document, Mr. Demirdjian.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
7 Q. Sir, I just want to clarify something in your answer. You said:
8 "I met Zoran Hadzic after he was released at Plitvice."
9 I just want to make sure that you meant Goran and not Zoran.
10 A. I meant Goran Hadzic because I don't know any Zoran Hadzic.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Now, in your statement you talk about
12 Mr. Hadzic's arrest in Plitvice with Borivoje Savic. Now, is it correct
13 to say that when this happened the Serb population in Borovo Selo was
14 outraged by this; is that right?
15 A. Could you please repeat that question?
16 Q. The question is that when Mr. Hadzic was arrested at Plitvice,
17 the population, the Serb population, in Borovo Selo was outraged by this.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And let me ask you, were they outraged not just because it was
20 just anyone but because it was one of their leaders who was arrested; is
21 that right?
22 A. That's not right. Boro Savic was also arrested.
23 Q. Yes. And what I meant by my question is: By their arrest, by
24 Hadzic and Savic being arrested, what was -- what was upsetting to the
25 population in Borovo Selo was that there was two of their leaders who are
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Now, after Mr. Hadzic was released, how frequently did you see
5 A. I first saw him that time in Vukasin's house, and then I didn't
6 see him again until the government of the Srem and Baranja district was
8 Q. And from that point on, would it be correct to say that you had
9 almost daily interactions with him?
10 A. I don't understand.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May I -- sorry for interrupting, but I think that
12 the question was asked and answered.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So maybe I'll clarify.
14 Q. I mean to say from the moment that you joined the security unit
15 headed by Mr. Bogic, from that moment on, would it be fair to say that
16 you saw Mr. Hadzic almost on a daily basis?
17 A. No, not on a daily basis but occasionally. From time to time.
18 Q. All right. So from time to time you -- you told us this morning
19 you were sleeping in the entrance in the rooms at the Dvorac, at the
20 castle; right?
21 A. Yes. Correct.
22 Q. And that is where Mr. Hadzic had his seat or his headquarters;
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. So from a daily basis, perhaps that's not the frequency with
1 which you saw him, would you see him on a weekly basis?
2 A. Well, whenever I stood at the gate and he entered, I saw him.
3 Sometimes I was not there myself. I didn't stand at the gate 24 hours a
4 day. There were other people who took turns with me. So sometimes he
5 went in when I was not guarding the gate.
6 Q. Now, so you stated this morning that after Mr. Hadzic and Savic
7 were arrested at Plitvice, barricades were erected in Borovo Selo and
8 talks were held to remove these barricades. Now, are you able to tell us
9 when was Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Savic, when were they arrested? Do you
10 remember the date?
11 A. No, I don't remember.
12 Q. Are you able to tell us when the barricades were raised in
13 Borovo Selo?
14 A. Well, after they were arrested.
15 Q. Was it the same day, the very next day, a few days later?
16 A. I don't remember exactly.
17 Q. And after the moment that they were raised, how much time elapsed
18 until they were removed?
19 A. They would be removed when an agreement was made with
20 Vukasin Soskocanin. Then they would be set up again, then they would be
21 removed and set up again, and so on. Several times.
22 Q. But you're not very clear about the time-frame.
23 A. No, no.
24 Q. Okay. I will move on to a different topic, Mr. Dafinic. Are you
25 familiar with the following name, Mr. Radenko Dragovic who's alleged to
1 have been a commander for the logistics in the Borovo Selo
2 Territorial Defence?
3 A. Yes, I know that. I think he was even deputy commander of the
4 TO, the Territorial Defence.
5 Q. And is he still alive?
6 A. Dragovic, yes, he is.
7 Q. Have you seen him recently?
8 A. Well, he's sickly and ill. I haven't seen him in a long time.
9 He is retired. He suffers from diabetes. He doesn't move around much.
10 Q. How about Mr. Radenko Alavanja? Have you seen him recently?
11 A. I have not seen him in more than three years. Three years ago we
12 discussed some potential business opportunity to grow chinchillas. He
13 was already doing it, and I wanted to join him but then I gave up. That
14 was three years ago and, since then, I haven't seen him.
15 Q. And Mr. Cesic you said you're still in touch with him. So you
16 still see him regularly?
17 A. He is a neighbour of mine.
18 Q. Very well. Sir, I'd like to go back to 1991 when you joined the
19 Serbian national security. Is it correct to say that up to that point,
20 you had never worked to protect anyone's physical security; is that
22 A. No, no, no.
23 Q. I'd like to ask you: What was the selection criteria applied by
24 Mr. Bogic to recruit members of the Serbian national security? Is it
25 mainly people that he was familiar with?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It requires for speculation, what criteria had
4 Bogic in the choice of security.
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is not speculation. I'm asking him about
6 his knowledge, not the witness's knowledge.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Would you lying me to repeat the question, Mr. Dafinic?
10 A. No. It was on a friendly basis. We all knew each other. He had
11 to ask somebody. He couldn't ask somebody he didn't know. We are
12 talking about a small village with 8.000 inhabitants. We knew each
13 other, but there was a circle of friends who knew each other from bars
14 and disco clubs. I knew him because he went to school with my wife. And
15 he knew Pero Rakas because we are more or less of the same age. He was
16 two, three years younger than me. So he knew me, he knew others, and he
17 asked the people whom he knew. Maybe he asked others as well, but I'm
18 aware of only these people.
19 Q. Now, by providing security to the government, did that involve
20 escorting government ministers to certain places wherever they were
22 A. Yes, some. Some were on the escort detail, some stayed back.
23 Q. And did that change or did you always have the same assignment?
24 A. Are we talking about providing escort for the government?
25 Q. Yes. You said that some people provided -- some were on the
1 escort, some stayed back. Would one person always do the same thing or
2 would they change? Would they sometimes provide escort and sometimes
3 provide security to the building?
4 A. Yes, we took turns. Although Relja Andric always drove
5 Stevo Bogic around.
6 Q. Okay. Now with respect to escorting ministers, did you also
7 provide escort to Mr. Goran Hadzic?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. And --
10 A. We never drove in a column. He would leave either before the
11 rest of the people or after them. We escorted Stevo Bogic with Susa. It
12 depended on the room in the car. One or two of us went, whereas the rest
13 stayed and secured the facility. We couldn't all leave that position.
14 Q. Very well. Now with respect to Mr. Hadzic's movements, who would
15 escort him?
16 A. Milenko Japundzic was the one who escorted him. As well as
17 Ljubo, Ljubo, Ljubo ... the late Ljubo Mudrinic.
18 Q. Now amongst your colleagues in your Serbian National Security
19 Service, would you sometimes share amongst yourselves your experience in
20 escorting government members?
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, the witness -- there is no foundation for
22 this question. The witness never mentioned that he was -- he has any
23 colleagues Serbian national security. He didn't mention such
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
1 Q. I'm talking about your unit, Mr. Dafinic, the one headed by
2 Mr. Bogic. Just to be perfectly clear. Within this unit, did it ever
3 occur that you shared some information with them about problems you faced
4 in your day-to-day assignments?
5 A. First of all, we were no Serb national security at all. That's
6 number one.
7 Second of all, we were not a unit, and we had never discussed
8 problems. We only asked each other whether everything was all right,
9 whether anybody entered with weapons. Borivoje [as interpreted] would
10 tell us where to go, and Borivoje would inquire as to what had happened
11 during the day. And he would inquire that of the person who was on
12 sentry duty at that moment. We were not a unit at all.
13 Q. Sorry, you mentioned the name Borivoje here. Who you are talking
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: As far as I see, this name was -- found its way
16 to the transcript. The witness did not mention any such name.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Any name --
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Borivoje.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
20 Q. Sir, did you mention any name at all? Who would tell us where to
21 go. You said "somebody would tell us where to go."
22 A. Stevo Bogic.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. No Borivoje. I did not mention any Borivoje. No.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's probably an error in the transcript.
1 Q. Now, sir, coming back to my question, this is exactly what I was
2 asking you about. You did share some information about how your day
3 went, and the reason why I'm asking you this is again because none of the
4 members of your unit had any training in securing government members. So
5 is it correct to say that you did share some information to keep each
6 other abreast of problematic situations, et cetera?
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we know -- maybe this question should be more
9 clear about problematic situation. I don't know what the Prosecution
10 refers to.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We will come to that in a moment. I'm just
12 inquiring at this stage whether the witness shared information with his
13 colleagues about their day-to-day work.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
16 Q. Yes, Mr. Dafinic. You may answer the question now.
17 A. Please repeat the question.
18 Q. So the question was, and this is to confirm what you just told us
19 earlier, you would share or talk to your colleagues about what happened
20 that day. You shared information about situations you faced.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. As part of your work, did there ever come a time where either
23 through your work or through your colleagues' work you faced a situation
24 when a government member was being followed?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And who was that government member?
2 A. I don't remember. When there was an assembly meeting in
3 Beli Manastir, we went there. When there was a meeting in Borovo Selo,
4 we went there. Some of us, though. When there was a meeting in Knin, we
5 went there. The government members went and each of them had a driver.
6 So we escorted the entire government. Two or three of us would go to be
7 of help.
8 Q. Let me clarify my question. My question was: As part of your
9 work where you escorted the government, did you ever receive information
10 that one of the government members was being followed or stalked? That
11 somebody was following him.
12 A. No, no, no.
13 Q. Sir, did you know a minister by the name of Slavko Dokmanovic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you ever have to provide him security or escort?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. And how would you describe your relationship with Mr. Dokmanovic?
18 How familiar were you with him?
19 A. We were not close. We were on the basis of just greeting each
20 other. He would inquire how we were and that was that.
21 Q. Sir, earlier this morning my learned friend showed you some of
22 the identification cards that you had provided him copies of.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And I would like us to pull them up at this
24 moment. I believe that they were admitted as D197. Yes. I'd like us to
25 start with the very top one. If we can zoom on that one, please.
1 Q. Now, this morning you told us that you received this first card
2 about 5, 10, or 15 days after you joined the government security led by
3 Mr. Bogic.
4 First of all, this one includes your name and your post, and it
5 is signed by the president of the government, Mr. Goran Hadzic; is that
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And this card is the one that you had until when, until 1992,
9 until the RSK was formed; is that right?
10 A. When was the RSK formed? After the assembly meeting -- or when?
11 I don't understand.
12 Q. Sir, the question is: This first card, this first ID card that
13 is in front of us, this is the card that you had with you and used -- or,
14 well, you had in your possession until the government of RSK was created
15 in 1992 at which time you were issued this second card. Do I understand
16 that correctly?
17 A. Yes, the second. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Now, the second card here. First of all,
19 we see your picture and everything, but does this also have a cover page?
20 Is there a cover to this ID or is it just a one-sided ID card?
21 A. There was a cover page which depicted the words "official ID
22 card." It was blue and all you could see on the cover page was the words
23 that I just gave you.
24 Q. Do you have that ID card with you right now?
25 A. Yes, I do have it. Not on me at the moment.
1 Q. Could I ask you to bring it with you at the next break? Do you
2 have it in the building here?
3 A. In the building? Here? Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. If you could bring it after the next break. I would
5 like to be able to see it. Now, did this --
6 A. I believe do that.
7 Q. Sorry, thank you. This one has a bit more details than the first
8 card. Now, is this picture a picture of you in -- taken in 1991?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Very well. And under this we see your name, function, and your
11 signature. And then the signature of the president of the government.
12 On the right side, we see the details which give you the power to check
13 the identity of citizens and bring them before responsible organs,
14 et cetera.
15 This morning when you were shown these cards, you told us that --
16 let me see what was the wording you used. You said that these were
17 staple authorisations of the MUP of Serbia. Do you remember saying that
18 this morning?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And these -- looking at the watermark here and looking at the ID,
21 the second one, and -- with the picture, was this a MUP ID or was this an
22 ID of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
23 A. The Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and
24 the third one of the Serbian MUP featuring the same authorities. You
25 didn't want to show it. I received it in 1992.
1 Q. What I'm trying to get at, sir, is this second ID we see with
2 your picture and the two stamps, was this an ID of the MUP of Serbia or
3 was this an ID of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?
4 A. It says --
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the Republic of Serbian Krajina,
7 the Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. That's what
8 I'm reading.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
10 Q. Very well. Thank you for that clarification. Now, sir, bearing
11 in mind the authorisation that we see on the right side, I would like to
12 show you another document.
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This would be 65 ter 6534 at tab 14 in the
14 Prosecution's list.
15 And actually, Your Honours, for the use of this document, we
16 would need to go in private session.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 11620-11623 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In fact, if it pleases the Court, I could inform
1 the Chamber or the Registry during the break which -- from which portion
2 we should have left to remove the private session marking.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: It would be helpful.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
5 Q. Sir, we have a document here in front of us dated February of
6 1992. Yes. It's a document signed by Mr. Bogic, and you can see in the
7 header, it says: "Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western
8 Srem." In the top left-hand corner, the words "Serbian National
10 Now, sir, did you ever hear the name being used at the time?
11 A. That's a question better put to Stevo Bogic. He mentioned that
12 some sort of unit was to be established, but as far as I know it never
13 materialised. I think this is not a question for me. It's a question
14 for him.
15 As for myself, I know that I was never part of any Serbian
16 national security because it had never been set up. He was just talking
17 about it, saying that it would be established one of those days but as
18 far as I know it never happened. I did not have any insight into these
19 documents. I was a guard standing at the door. I was part of a security
20 detail. This question is really for someone else to answer.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. So in your day-to-day interactions with
22 Mr. Bogic -- in fact, you were not familiar with what Mr. Bogic was doing
23 with respect to documentations and requests of this kind; is that right?
24 A. When he was deputy prime minister and I was a guard standing at
25 the door, why would he tell me these things? Of course I didn't know and
1 he didn't see me every day. Sometimes we wouldn't see each other for two
2 or three days. The person at the reception standing at the door would
3 tell him, "What's new? Do you have any problems? Were you well fed,"
4 et cetera. "Hello," "goodbye." That was it.
5 Q. Very well. Now, sir, in your statement at paragraph 26, you say
6 that your unit -- well, what did you say exactly? "We." "We never
7 arrested people or take them into custody or investigate them."
8 Is that your evidence?
9 A. You're talking about a unit again. I said "group." We were no
10 unit. We were a group of guards. Everybody knows what a unit means. A
11 unit of five or six men is no unit in my understanding. And you can call
12 it as you please.
13 Q. Let's settle for "group" and we'll settle this question once and
14 for all. Now, this group of yours, you say, never arrested people or
15 take them in custody. Is that your evidence?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And just to be perfectly clear, what you're telling us is that it
18 never happened that members of your group went to someone's house and
19 brought them over for detention or interrogation?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. As far as I know. Because we didn't even
21 have a prison. We had two dormitories.
22 Q. I will return to this issue in a moment. However, were you
23 familiar with the fact that prisoners were detained at Arkan's training
24 centre, just across from your building?
25 A. No, no. I did not know because I had no access there. I could
1 not get such information.
2 Q. You didn't hear any suggestions that prisoners were detained in
3 the training centre?
4 A. There was all kind of talk, but I would not have been able to
5 hear that kind of talk. I could have only found out later. While I was
6 there, I couldn't know anything about it because I repeat literally
7 nothing. Later on when it was all in the past, I heard some stories of
8 the kind you mention now.
9 Q. Sir, at the time you didn't hear yourself any sounds of beatings?
10 A. How could I hear myself when I was 1 kilometre away? Okay, not 1
11 kilometre but 500 metres. I was either at the entrance or in the
12 dormitory. I did not hear any screams any moments [as interpreted]. I
13 heard only their singing. While they were running, exercising, they were
14 singing. That's the only thing you could hear.
15 Q. Sir, 500 metres is quite a long distance. Are you saying that
16 the distance between the government building and the training centre was
17 500 metres?
18 A. Sure, certainly. If it was not 500, it was 450.
19 Q. Sir, this morning you made a correction to your statement and you
20 amended what you had in your statement to be 250 metres to 500 metres;
21 right? In respect to distance in Borovo.
22 A. Well, I confused it with the football pitch. I said at the
23 beginning 500 reckoning with the distance between the football pitch and
24 the tavern, and I -- and I reckoned that it could be those streets of 20
25 metres each plus the football pitch. That's why I said 250. My house
1 overlooked the pitch. There was the church, then my house, and the pitch
2 that my house was facing. But if the pitch is not 500 metres, then it
3 could be less.
4 Q. Sir, I would like you to take a look at a document quickly before
5 the break.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is Exhibit P130 at tab 20. Yes.
7 Q. Sir, this is a document you probably have not seen before. It is
8 information --
9 A. Could you make it a bit larger?
10 Q. Yes. On the top left-hand corner, you see Command of the
11 1st Military District, and it is dated October of 1991. And the title
12 is: "The conduct of the Commander of the Special Forces of Slavonia,
13 Baranja, and Western Srem ... 'Arkan' in Erdut." This is a military
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would like us to go to page 3 in the English
16 version and page 2 in the B/C/S version. And we can zoom on the bottom
17 part of the B/C/S version. Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are flipping through the pages
19 too quickly. I didn't manage to read it.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
21 Q. Very well. I want you to focus on this part of the report
22 because the other parts of the report are of no concern to us at this
24 It talks about Arkan and his activities. And it says:
25 "In the centre" --
1 And I'd like to remind you this document is drafted from October
2 of 1991.
3 "... Arkan is engaged in the slaughter of the prisoners sent by
4 the local territorial units. He observed a man being beaten with a
5 baseball bat, after which they put him on the nylon to bleed to death.
6 "He observed them putting rifles with silencers against the back
7 of the head of four men and killing them in that way. Following the
8 slaughter of these four men, who were then thrown in the Dunav River, he
9 personally wiped off the blood."
10 Sir, were there any rumours at that time about prisoners being
11 thrown in the Danube river?
12 A. Not that I know. I am not aware of this. Maybe the person who
13 did this was aware of it, and I don't suppose they would talk about it.
14 This is the first time I hear of it. I don't know. I really don't know.
15 Q. Sir, your building was in the same compound as Arkan's training
16 centre. Here we have a military report from the 1st Military District
17 whose headquarters are quite removed from Erdut, and you're telling us
18 that you have never heard of this?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't know that these two objects were in the
22 same compound, and I don't see any foundation for such a question.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I could refrain or rephrase the
24 question, I see it's the break, though.
25 So before we go on break, however, Your Honours, I did fail to
1 tender the document I showed earlier with respect to Mr. Ulemek. This
2 was 65 ter 6534, tab 14. We wish to tender this document.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object because the witness didn't know
5 anything about this document and it is not -- there is no foundation for
6 tendering this document through this witness.
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness is
8 familiar with the individual who is referred to in the document. He is
9 familiar with the ID card that he personally possessed. We are
10 submitting it to ascertain the fact that there is a match between these
11 IDs and that this person did, in fact, have an ID card as described in
12 the document.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: First of all, the purpose of this document is
14 not, as far as I know, whether the witness know Mr. Ulemek or not, but
15 the match between these IDs. We did not see Ulemek's ID, and we don't
16 know about authenticity and credibility of this card mentioned in this
17 report. Because of that, I think that there is no foundation to tender
18 this document through this particular witness.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: The objection is overruled.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, you wanted to intervene? Yes?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did want to intervene. As far as
23 I was able to read from that official ID card, I had not seen that ID
24 card as I did mine, but it is -- it has the same writing, the same text
25 as my ID card, but I didn't see it. I didn't see his actual ID with his
1 photo on it. He could have written it himself. I saw that kind of ID
2 several times, and now I find out that he had the same kind, Ulemek. He
3 didn't have our ID card. He had the ID card of Arkan's unit.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: The objection is overruled. The document is
5 admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Does 65 ter number 6534 need to be under seal?
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is meant to be under seal. Thank you for
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3263, under seal, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And, Your Honours, I believe it is the
12 appropriate time.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed. There is one little detail I wanted
14 to mention.
15 On the document we MFI'd which was the witness statement of this
16 witness, right, Mr. Demirdjian?
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I suppose then there were another -- I suppose
19 it's a confusion, but another issue will be resolved; namely, that the
20 witness statement says that the witness has been interviewed by
21 Mr. Zoran Zivanovic and by -- and then there is the witness's name. I
22 don't suppose he is interviewed by himself. Just -- I want to have that
23 on the record.
24 Mr. Witness, we take the second break. We'll come back at 12.45.
25 Court adjourned.
1 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think this morning I forgot to mention for the
5 record, so do I it now, that today we sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis;
6 Judge Mindua being absent.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, please proceed.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 And, Your Honours, as promised before the break, I did look back
11 at the transcript at the portion which was in private session. I believe
12 that as of page 46, line 2, we can assume that this is back in private
13 session [sic] as nothing was said about the document any further from
14 that point on.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So I called the document at page 42, line 18.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So from that -- yes.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: You say: "As of page 46, line 2, we can assume
20 that this is back in private ..."
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In open.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Open.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Sorry.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's totally different. The private -- we lift
25 the qualification private session as from that point.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Mr. Dafinic, I would like to ask you about the statement that you
4 gave to the Defence. Could you tell us first what was the very first
5 time that you got in contact or communicated with Mr. Hadzic or any
6 members of his Defence team about testifying in this case?
7 A. I did not have contact with Mr. Hadzic. I had contact on the
8 29th of May, 2014 with Mr. Zivanovic.
9 Q. I'm asking you about the very first time, not the very last time.
10 So the 29th of May you signed this statement. But what was the first
11 time that you communicated with the Defence team of Mr. Hadzic?
12 A. Yes, well, it was in April. Perhaps one month before.
13 Q. So that was the very, very first time?
14 A. In the month of April, the first time and the last time.
15 Q. Well, the first time time was in April. Is that what you're
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Now, could you tell us where -- were you met in Novi Sad where
19 you live?
20 A. Yes, in Novi Sad.
21 Q. And both in April and in May you met the Defence team in
22 Novi Sad?
23 A. I met with Zoran in April; and in May; I met with Aleksandar from
24 his team to sign the statement.
25 Q. Okay. I would like to take you first to the meeting in April.
1 Where exactly in Novi Sad did this take place?
2 A. In the centre of Novi Sad. In the offices of Mico Crnogorac.
3 Q. This is a lawyer, I assume.
4 A. No, it's not law firm. It's a friend's office.
5 Q. Well, you said that Mr. Zivanovic was present during the
6 interview. Was anyone else present while -- during this interview?
7 A. Yes, there was.
8 Q. Okay. And tell us who else was there?
9 A. He and I conducted the interview together, and David Cesic, I
10 think, was present. I don't know. As soon as I finished the interview
11 with him, I left.
12 Q. How long did the interview last?
13 A. An hour and a half, I think.
14 Q. Okay. And when you met again in May to sign the statement, was
15 it in the same office?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And was Mr. David Cesic present as well when you signed the
19 A. Yes. I got the statement to read and to sign.
20 Q. And both in April and May when you met in this office, was
21 Mr. Cesic part of the discussions during the interview?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was he present in the office?
24 A. In another office.
25 Q. Now this morning we saw the ID card which had gone missing. You
1 mention this at paragraph 21. And I would like to take you to paragraph
2 21 of your signed statement. Do you have it in front of you? You see
3 here at paragraph 21 you say that:
4 "After the formation of the RSK, we received new identity cards
5 from Ilija Kojic, but for some reason, I do not know why, we had to
6 return them after a month, which is why I do not have this identity
8 So I'm curious to know, how did you find it?
9 A. Well, I photocopied all the documents I received. From day one,
10 I made photocopies in order not to lose them and also to keep them as a
11 memento. In case they had to returned or were taken away, I wanted to
12 have photocopies. So I found, quite by chance, this photocopy among my
13 documents in Novi Sad.
14 Q. Very well. I would like to move to another topic. You mentioned
15 Vukasin Soskocanin at paragraph 3 of your statement, and you mention that
16 he organised the guards in Borovo Selo after Hadzic's arrest and Savic's
17 arrest in Plitvice. Now, at this paragraph here you add that:
18 "At this time Vukasin Soskocanin was not a member of the SDS but
19 he joined later."
20 Right? The last sentence of paragraph 3, this is what you say.
21 He was not a member of the SDS. He joined later.
22 Now, sir, we know that Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Savic were arrested on
23 the 31st of March, 1991, and we know that Vukasin Soskocanin was killed
24 on the 15th of May, 1991, so six weeks later. So how and when during
25 this six-weeks period did he join the SDS, if you know?
1 A. Well, I think he joined the SDS even later than that. Not within
2 those six weeks. Later than that. I don't know the exact date. He was
3 imagining a different kind of movement.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we pull up the Exhibit P65.50, Your Honours.
5 It's at tab 2.
6 Q. And while this is coming up, Mr. Dafinic, I'm not sure I quite
7 understand your answer. I'm telling you that six weeks after
8 Mr. Hadzic's arrest, Vukasin Soskocanin was killed on the 15th of May,
9 and you're saying he was -- he joined the SDS even later than that? I'm
10 not sure I understand exactly your answer.
11 A. Here it is. When Goran Hadzic and Boro Savic were released at
12 Plitvice Lakes, they came to see Soskocanin. They came for a meeting
13 which I also attended, although I didn't come in to listen to what
14 they're talking about. But he was not a member of the SDS then. As far
15 as I know, he joined later. Maybe he had joined earlier, but not that I
16 know. To the best of my knowledge he joined the SDS, became a member,
17 later. Maybe he had joined earlier without telling me, but the fact that
18 he was meeting with Goran Hadzic and Savic does not necessarily mean he
19 was a member of the SDS.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It's Exhibit P62.50. I see that it was recorded
21 as P675.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stevo Bogic got him to sign up to
23 the SDS. Stevo Bogic could know the date, when Soskocanin joined the
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. I apologise. It's P65.50.
1 Q. Just a second, Mr. Dafinic. The document will come up in a
2 moment. This is not the right one.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
4 Q. Do you see the document on your screen? It is dated the 12th of
5 November, 1990. And this is a list of members of the SDS in Borovo. And
6 you can see as number 1 Vukasin Soskocanin as president of the SDS there.
7 Is this something -- does this help you establish the time-line a
8 little bit or --
9 A. I can see that, yes. It does help. That means he was a member
10 earlier without me knowing. Yes, yes. It helps me. I see that it's the
11 12th of November, 1990, but I didn't know that.
12 Q. Now, when you met with the members of the Defence team here in
13 the last couple of days, they made some notes about what you said about
14 Vukasin Soskocanin. And one thing which was not put to you this morning,
15 and I would like you to confirm that this is something you said in
16 proofing, was that after the Borovo Selo incident, Soskocanin stated for
17 the media that he personally killed five Ustashas during the battle in
18 Borovo Selo on the 2nd of May, 1991. Is that accurate, sir?
19 A. It's accurate. He made that statement for TV Novi Sad. That's
20 what he said and there must be some recording kept at Television
21 Novi Sad. I saw it on TV in the first place. He was shown on television
22 saying, "I killed five them in battle and I will kill 55 more," in
23 combat, of course.
24 Q. Sir, if someone is claiming on TV that he killed five person
25 on -- in a battle and he would kill 55 [as interpreted] more, would you
1 agree that this is quite an extreme position?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The other number was
4 "505," not "55."
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
7 Q. Now, I want us to move to the issue of the attack on Dalj which
8 you talked about this morning. You mentioned that you were in a group
9 led by Marko Loncarevic. Can you tell us how large this group was?
10 A. Which item? Which point?
11 Q. It doesn't matter at this moment, but could you remember
12 independently from the statement how many people were there in this group
13 led by Marko Loncarevic?
14 A. Five or six.
15 Q. Okay. Now you also say that you found out about the attack no
16 more than half an hour prior to the departure. This is something you
17 said paragraph 14 of your statement. Do you stand by that statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now you found out no more than half an hour prior to the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you, however, aware that an attack was imminent and that
23 there were some plans in the workings?
24 A. No. He told me to come to the hall, and when I arrived, there
25 were already about a hundred people there. I didn't even know that there
1 would be an attack. He just told me to come to the hall and there was
2 some attack being planned. He told me that in the hall.
3 Q. Now, was there any arming happening prior to the attack in
5 A. Well, everybody was armed.
6 Q. Specifically -- I'm talking about specifically for the attack.
7 Was there any arming being conducted a day or two days earlier?
8 A. Well, everybody had weapons even before. We were told to come
9 with our weapons.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we display 65 ter 6639 at tab 17.
11 Q. I'm going to show awe document in a moment, Mr. Dafinic. This is
12 an Official Note. And just to give you context, it's given by a man by
13 the name of Zdenko Nenic; he lives in Borovo. Are you familiar with this
15 A. No.
16 Q. You've never heard of a man named Zdenko Nenic?
17 A. No, no.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we could move to page 3 in the B/C/S first --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please enlarge the text?
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
21 Q. Yes, just a moment. I will ask them to enlarge the relevant
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So this is page 3 in the B/C/S.
24 Q. It's a very long statement, Mr. Dafinic. I will show you the
25 relevant portions.
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Page 3 in B/C/S is equivalent to page 2 in the
2 English version. And I'd like to -- for the B/C/S version, if we could
3 scroll -- yeah, zoom on the bottom part, please, in the last three
4 paragraphs. Yes, exactly. Thank you very much.
5 Q. Now, this man Nenic says here that in June or July 1991
6 Marko Loncarevic, which is somebody we've spoken about earlier today,
7 approached him to take over some weapons which he would take to his own
9 And in the next paragraph, Mr. Nenic says that he agreed to take
10 over the weapons, and following a prior agreement with Loncarevic he went
11 to Jovica Vucenovic's house where they took over at least four wooden
12 military boxes.
13 Now, it is correct to say that Mr. Vucenovic was in the TO in
14 Borovo Selo; is that right, Mr. Dafinic?
15 A. That's right, yes.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, if we go to the next page in the English
18 Q. Here it says that, in the top part:
19 "After they had cleaned the weapons, Loncarevic instructed them
20 to take the weapons to the Orthodox church in Borovo and store them in
21 Milenko Dafinic's house which stood in the immediate vicinity of the
22 church. The interviewee remembers that when they arrived at that
23 location, they did not find Dafinic."
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go to the next page in the English
25 version and also in the B/C/S version.
1 Q. So they did not find Dafinic.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And if we move to the top part of the next page
3 in the B/C/S.
4 Q. "... at home, his wife, Jovanka, nee Blagojevic, and Milenko's
5 father showed them where to put the weapons. Talking to Dafinic several
6 days later, the interviewee learned that the weapons were destined for
7 Dalj because an attack on that village was being planned."
8 Now, sir, does that remind you a little bit of the arming that
9 was taking place at the time?
10 A. Yes, yes, it does refresh my memory.
11 Q. And it carries on here to talk about a -- one or two nights ago a
12 meeting which was led by Marko Loncarevic and where several people were
13 gathered in a hall. Does that also match with your recollection of the
15 A. Let's go back to the first part. My wife wasn't there at the
16 time, and my father doesn't live in the same house as me so he could not
17 have been there. So this is not clear to me. My wife was absent as a
18 displaced person, and my father lives at a different address in a street
19 called Skolska. So this is entirely unclear to me.
20 As to weapons, yes, there were weapons. But as to my wife and my
21 father being there, that's impossible. My father knew absolutely nothing
22 about what I was doing, and the same goes for my wife. Especially since
23 she wasn't there even.
24 Q. But do you agree that you did know a couple of days earlier that
25 the attack was being planned? Do you agree on that part of the
2 A. I agree that the weapons were cleaned and left in my place and in
3 Jovica Vucenovic's place, but I do not agree as to knowing about when the
4 attack was going to be carried out. I did not know it several days in
5 advance, and I would not have taken the risk of having the weapons
6 cleaned in my house. I would not have exposed my family to such a risk.
7 Q. Very well.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I tender this statement, which
9 was at tab 17, 65 ter number is 6639.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object, because this statement does not
12 fulfil the requirements from Rule 92 ter, bis, or quater to be tendered
13 into evidence.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just to clarify, it's strictly for impeachment
15 purposes, Your Honours, and not for the substance.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The relevant parts are already read and there is
17 no need to tender this document for the impeachment.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Objection sustained. We will not admit the
20 document. Everything is on the record.
21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. Much obliged.
22 Q. Mr. Dafinic, I would like to return to the issue of your group,
23 the government security group. You mention in your statement that
24 Mr. Zarko Aleksic was involved in theft, and you seem to have focused
25 mainly on his activities in your statement as far as members of your
1 group are concerned. Is there any reason why you spoke about Aleksic's
2 involvement and not the other members of your group?
3 A. There is no special reason except I never learned anything about
4 others. I simply didn't learn about others.
5 And as for Aleksic, the facts were there. It's not that I
6 focused on him. I simply told you everything I knew and what I had
7 heard. I didn't see it. I heard that about Stevo Bogic. I didn't catch
8 him stealing. I simply heard that he had done it. I didn't focus on
9 him. I simply told you what I knew.
10 Q. In terms of catching him stealing, was Mr. Aleksic ever set up?
11 Was there a trap set for him to see if he was stealing?
12 A. Well, I'm not the one to tell you about that. Perhaps he was set
13 up. I simply don't know. I didn't. I'm not the right person to answer
14 that question. I didn't set him up. And as for others, I don't know.
15 Q. Now, with respect to others, isn't it true, sir, that
16 Sinisa Gajic and Dragan Lazarevic were involved in stealing money from a
17 bakery in Dalj just following the take-over on the 1st of August of 1991?
18 Is that something you were familiar with at the time?
19 A. No, no, no. They were not in my group, not during the assault.
20 I didn't know anything about that. Really nothing.
21 Q. Did you find out about it afterwards at a later stage?
22 A. No. I sold Sinisa Gajic a small Ferguson tractor and some tools.
23 I did not have anything to live on, so he [as interpreted] sold a
24 tractor, a trailer. He gave me a certain amount of money which -- with
25 which I bought food for my family who were in exile. I can't even -- I
1 could not even dream that he would be participating in the thing that
2 you're describing. I thought he had money. By then, I had all dispensed
3 all of my money. In order to be able to survive, I had to start selling
4 my belongings.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just one correction in the transcript or in
6 interpretation. It is line 14. It is said:
7 "I did not have anything to live on, so he sold the tractor ..."
8 The witness said "I sold ..."
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: "... the tractor."
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, I agree with that.
12 Q. Sir, are you familiar with a restaurant in Erdut Planina which at
13 the time was called Saran?
14 A. No, I did not go there before the war or during the war. I never
15 went there. I moved in the direction of Vukovar and Borovo Naselje.
16 Those were our locations. Perhaps I went to Trpinja and Bogota, but the
17 places you mention in your question, no, I never went there.
18 Q. No, you never went there but had you heard of it?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know that there was a restaurant in Erdut Planina which
21 was owned by a Hungarian man who was known as Ferika, last name Pap.
22 A. No, I never went to that side. I went to Okonja's bar. A good
23 bar. There were six pubs or bars in Borovo Selo, so I did not have any
24 reason to go elsewhere. I didn't even go to Dalj. I went to a totally
25 different side.
1 Q. I'm not talking about the time that you were in Borovo Selo. I'm
2 talking about the time where you stayed, as you said earlier, in the
3 government building in Erdut. Now, Erdut Planina is not very far from
4 Erdut, is it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now during your time there, have you not ever heard about this
7 restaurant and his owner? So I'm talking about September 1991 onwards.
8 A. I didn't hear anything because I didn't go there. I didn't have
9 time. I had a lot of commitments. I didn't hear. I didn't go there.
10 Q. Sir, we have information that Mr. Pap was brought for
11 interrogation at Arkan's training centre in November of 1991. Did you
12 know that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Milorad Stricevic, who was also
15 known as Puki?
16 A. I used to see him.
17 Q. And did you know that as part of his work he -- it was charged
18 [sic] of interrogating prisoners?
19 A. No, no. No. He didn't brag about that. And why would he ever
20 tell me that? I keep on repeating that I was a guard, and if he was a
21 colonel and if I was a guard, why would he ever confide in me? Of course
22 no, I didn't hear that.
23 Q. Sir, Mr. Stricevic interrogated the owner of this restaurant,
24 Mr. Pap, in the training centre, and there are suggestions that you are
25 present during this interrogation and took part in the mistreatment of
1 this restaurant owner.
2 A. First of all, as I've already told you, I did pass by the centre.
3 And as a foot soldier, as a regular soldier, I did not have access to the
4 centre, so I never entered it. The discipline over there was such that
5 nobody could enter if they were not authorised.
6 Q. But if they were invited --
7 A. Really nobody. Nobody. What? What? I don't understand.
8 Q. But if they were invited to attend, they could, couldn't they?
9 A. If somebody was to invite me?
10 Q. Sir, let's move on a bit here because it is also suggested that
11 Mr. Pap's --
12 A. Yes, go ahead.
13 Q. -- Mr. Pap's wife was looking for him, and this became a bit of a
14 disturbance in Erdut because she kept asking about him. Were you
15 familiar with the fact that a woman was looking for her disappeared
16 husband? And we're talking about the period of November 1991.
17 A. No. As far as I know, she never approached me when I was on
18 sentry duty. She never came to our facility. I don't know about the
19 others, but she never approached me with that request.
20 Q. Didn't Stevo Bogic order you, Sinisa Gajic, and Zarko Aleksic to
21 go to her house, confiscate money from this woman, and arrest her?
22 A. No. I've never heard such thing. First of all, he was not in a
23 position to give me such an order. He could not order me to do such
25 Q. Wasn't he your superior?
1 A. Yes. But in terms of securing the government, he was not there
2 to tell me to arrest people, because he knew I would never do that. I'm
3 sure he knew that very well. Well, I mean, why don't you ask him? I'm
4 sure he will tell you that he knows that I would never do that.
5 Q. If you are ordered to arrest someone and you have a pass which
6 allows you to arrest someone, why are you telling us that you would never
7 arrest someone?
8 A. Why wouldn't I arrest people? And in the ID it said that we were
9 authorised to bring people in, that we could do that. But there were no
10 grounds. I did not have any grounds to do that. I'm not a police
11 officer. I'm not an investigative body. I was not trained to
12 interrogate people. It was the police that did that. We were provided
13 with official ID cards to move about freely, not to arrest and bring in
14 people. I was not qualified for such things. Professionals, qualified
15 people, trained police officers are -- were supposed to do that and not
16 me. And I would have never done that.
17 Q. Sir, are you familiar with a woman who was a cook in the
18 government building's kitchen by the name of Viktorija Albert?
19 A. There were several cooks but none of their names ring any bells.
20 Q. Now, this particular cook was in a friendly relation with
21 Mr. Milorad Stricevic. Did you ever hear that Arkan dismissed Stricevic
22 from his position for protecting Ms. Albert and her family?
23 A. No, no, no. That was beyond my rank and beyond my sphere of
24 interest. I never heard that.
25 I keep on repeating: Why would anybody be discussing things like
1 that in front of me? Again, I don't understand what you're saying. Why
2 would Arkan ever say that to me or whoever? No, I never heard any such
4 Q. I did not suggest that he would have told you, personally. What
5 I'm saying here is that it was well known that Mr. Stricevic was
6 protecting this family and that he was dismissed and that effectively we
7 know that he was also killed. Do you know about the circumstances of his
9 A. No. When it comes to Arkan's personnel policy, I was not in a
10 position to know whom he promoted, whom he removed. There were lot of
11 people there that belonged to him, but I did not have a clue of what was
12 going on, and none of them ever told anything to us. I suppose that they
13 did not dare say anything to us. So how would I have obtained such
14 information? Sometime when they passed by us, they would say, "Hello."
15 Sometimes not even that. They just frowned upon us. That was all.
16 Q. Sir, were you familiar with the fact that Ms. Albert's home,
17 which was very close to the government building, was appropriated and
18 turned into a brothel? Were you aware of that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you familiar with the fact that there was a brothel in Erdut
21 very close to the government building?
22 A. I heard about that, but it was kept secret from me.
23 Q. You never went there?
24 A. No.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, can we display 65 ter 6638,
1 please. Tab 16.
2 Q. Sir, what we're looking at here is the statement of a woman named
3 Katica Dagovic who lives in Borovo.
4 A. What's the name? Katica what? Dagovic.
5 Q. Quite right. Did you know her?
6 A. No.
7 Q. She seems to be familiar with you. And I would like you to look
8 at -- first of all, at page 1, we see her name.
9 A. Perhaps I did know her, but I can't remember her. She doesn't
10 mean anything to me.
11 Q. Well, she was born on the 21st of June, 1960, so at the time of
12 the events, she was around 21, 22 years old. And what she describes here
13 is the events in Borovo Selo.
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And I'd like us to go to page 3 in both the
15 English and the B/C/S version. In the B/C/S version, we can zoom on
16 the -- well, if you're in the English version, zoom on the bottom part.
17 Thank you. Now top part in the B/C/S version.
18 Q. Here she describes about individuals who carried out especially
19 brutal persecution of Croatian population in Borovo Selo itself. She
20 lists a number of people, including Stevo Bogic, Branko Ciric, you're
21 listed there, so is Mr. David Cesic, and other members of your group.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now if we move to page 4 in the English version.
23 The bottom part of page 4. The very last paragraph. And the B/C/S
24 version, we scroll down a little bit. In fact, we'll need to go to the
25 next page in the B/C/S version. Top part. Yeah. Thank you.
1 Q. The paragraph begins with:
2 "During 1993 ..."
3 She explains that her husband was mobilised in the JNA, so she
4 was alone in her house with her two daughters.
5 "At an unspecified date at around 9.30 at night, someone rang at
6 the house doorbell. Milenko Dafinic stood in the doorway dressed in
7 civilian clothes and told her that he needed to talk to her."
8 She describes the conversation you had and that you took her in
9 silence to Erdut to the barracks of Arkan. At the time she was worried
10 about her children. And when you arrived to the building in question,
11 she could see that this was a large facility with a lot of rooms. Next
12 to it there was a coffee bar and a disco which were built up for
13 Arkan's Tigers. There was also a brothel. And she got scared. She
14 describes the brothel here.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, do we have all this on the
16 document on the screen?
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours. I'm still at -- in the first
19 Q. And the very last sentence of the paragraph talks about the
20 location of the brothel.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: We just change the page. Okay.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise, Your Honours. Yes, we have to turn
23 the page.
24 Q. So this was all in the first paragraph, everything that I
25 described, about being taken to Erdut, to Arkan's barracks, and that she
1 was taken to this brothel, and she got scared.
2 Now, the next paragraph gives some details about the brothel.
3 And in the middle of the paragraph it says that, first of all:
4 "In addition to Arkan, the following men also owned these girls.
5 David Cesic, Stevo Bogic, Milenko Dafinic, Petar Rakas, and Rujo from
6 Savulje who were in league with Hadzic."
7 And in the next paragraph, she says the following:
8 "After arriving at the building, Milenko Dafinic takes the said
9 Katica through to his room and tells her to relax and calm down and that
10 in the end she would even be laughing and that if she won't that she
11 would end her career in an Erdut well."
12 The paragraph carries on to describe that Petar Rakas came in and
13 asked you to return her home and that you returned her home and you
14 apologised on the way.
15 Does this statement refresh your memory about, first of all, this
16 woman and that the fact that you arrested her and brought her over to the
17 location she describes?
18 A. I don't know. First of all, the Russian who's mentioned here, he
19 was not in my group. I never socialised with him. I socialised with
20 Pero Rakas.
21 Why would I take her there? Why would I apologise to her? That
22 woman's name really doesn't ring a bell. Why would I take her there and
23 then return her home? I don't understand why. To show her the brothel.
24 Why would I have done that? This is completely untrue. I know nothing
25 about that. This -- I've never heard of that before or seen it before.
1 That guy, Rujo, and it says Ceca Valiskovic [phoen] was also
2 brought there. I don't know. This is -- I really don't understand.
3 This is totally beyond any common sense. I never participated in this.
4 I'm just reading what I see in front of me.
5 Q. Let me stop you for a minute here. The paragraph that you have
6 in front of your eyes right now names Mr. David Cesic, Stevo Bogic,
7 Petar Rakas. Now these are individuals who are part of your group; isn't
8 that correct?
9 A. Yes, yes. But Rujo is not from Savulje. And he says Rujo and
10 Hadzic are in cahoots. What cahoots? He was from in our group, but I
11 didn't do that, and I don't believe that any of them did. But you have
12 to ask them. I'm sure I didn't. I can speak for myself.
13 Q. So you still stand by your statement that you never arrested
14 anyone and brought them over?
15 A. No, I did not. And particularly not to Arkan's place. I told
16 you, there was no way I could enter Arkan's premises, and I didn't. And
17 Petar Rakas also, Rus [as interpreted], David Cesic. Stevo Bogic, yes,
18 perhaps. But the rest of us, we could not enter those premises at all.
19 There was no way.
20 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the men from Borovo, his name is
21 Dusan Vukovic, he was the son of Father Prako?
22 A. Excuse me? Branko? Did you say Branko?
23 Q. The man's name is Dusan Vukovic, and he is the son of a man who's
24 name is Father Prako, P-r-a-k-o.
25 A. I don't know. Can you jog my memory? It was 20 years ago. I
1 have forgotten some people. Vukovic. Hmm.
2 Q. This is a man who worked on a raft connecting Borovo Selo to
4 A. Yes, now it does ring a bell. Dusan -- I apologise. What name
5 did you say? What -- what did you say?
6 Q. Vukovic. Vukovic.
7 A. If we have the same person in mind, then I know him. He was the
8 one who was in charge of the barge on the Danube. He transported people
9 across the river; right?
10 Q. Correct. Now if we look at a statement that he's given.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This is 65 ter 6637 at tab 15. If we zoom in on
12 the first page in the central part -- well, in the first paragraph to
13 start with. Thank you.
14 Q. You can see his details here. His name, his date of birth, that
15 he resides in Borovo.
16 In the second paragraph, he states that he was mobilised into the
17 civilian protection and that his superior was Ruza Mandic. And in 1991,
18 he served as an assistant worker on a raft connecting Borovo Selo.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, if we turn to page 2 in the English version
20 and in the B/C/S version. The bottom part. Yes. And top part in the
21 B/C/S version.
22 Q. Mr. Vukovic says that he was aware that Branko Ciric, aka
23 Kotsgar [phoen], was the commander of the upper part of the village, and
24 this is Borovo Selo. And he mentions a number of people in his group.
25 And then he mentions a number of people in Goran Hadzic's group,
1 including Relja, Milenko Dafinic, David Cesic, Petar Rakas,
2 Marinac Aleksic, Stevo Bogic.
3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The next paragraph -- if we could go to the next
4 page, please. Top part.
5 Q. It says that Mihajlo Ulemek, the man we mentioned earlier today
6 from Pazova, "committed various crimes in Daljska Planina and that
7 Dafinic has bragged about Ulemek killing people. He also bragged about
8 the systemic rape and orgies taking place at the winery and that
9 Pero Rakas operated a brothel."
10 Now, sir, it appears that this man has a lot of details about
11 your group, and it appears that your group was deeply involved in
12 criminal difficulties, wasn't it?
13 A. That's not true. I don't know why that person stated that. That
14 person and I were on very friendly terms. I saw him actually at
15 Branko Ciric's funeral in Sombor. I would never brag about Ulemek
16 committing crimes. He was my neighbour. He was in charge of the ferry.
17 I don't know why he said that. Maybe he was put under pressure. Maybe
18 he wanted to protect himself or somebody dictated this to him. I don't
19 believe that these are his words. Actually, they are. But I don't
20 believe that he would have said this. First of all, even if I'd known
21 things, I would have not bragged about them. I'm not that kind of a man.
22 But I don't think that this is his statement. I absolutely cannot
23 believe that.
24 Q. You cannot believe it, sir, but we just saw two people mentioning
25 your group being involved in criminal activities and the creation of this
1 brothel, and what I'm going to --
2 A. I apologise, I apologise. I don't know who served in that. And
3 how come they knew all that if they were in Borovo Selo? No, no. I
4 don't agree with this. No. No way. I can't believe that he stated
5 this, or perhaps he did but under duress.
6 Q. Sir, you said this morning that you left the region in July of
7 1997 during the peaceful reintegration.
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Up to that point you were living in Erdut; is that right?
10 A. No, I lived in Borovo Selo. I did live in Erdut until 1993 or,
11 rather, from 1991 to 1993, but I visited my own home very often. Every
12 now and then I would come home. But we spent a lot of nights there as
13 well and then we would go home and stay there for a couple of days and
14 then we would return.
15 Q. And, sir, you mentioned you left in July 1997.
16 Mr. Slavko Dokmanovic was arrested on the 27th of June, 1997. Now isn't
17 it correct that this was -- the news of his arrest were publicly known
18 and were all over the news?
19 A. Yes, I know that.
20 Q. And, sir, did you leave the region out of fear that you, too,
21 would be arrested?
22 A. I left like everybody else. A majority of the people left, so I
23 did too. I did not want to go on living there. Not because I was afraid
24 that I would be arrested.
25 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Stevo Bogic also left the region around
1 the same time?
2 A. He left earlier. I stayed the longest of all those people. They
3 had to leave earlier because their children started school. At that time
4 my children were already out of school, so there was no reason for me to
5 leave as early as they did.
6 Q. And were you familiar with the fact that before you left
7 Mr. Bogic burnt a number of documents relating to the activities of your
8 group right in front of his house in a metal barrel?
9 A. No. No, no, no. Neither did he do that in front of my house,
10 nor do I know that. Why would he do that in front of my house in the
11 centre of the village for everyone to see? No, he didn't. If he did
12 that, it must have been farther away. He did not do it in front of my
14 Q. The translation may have been missed in this one. I said that he
15 did it in front of his house. Did you hear about that?
16 A. No, no, no. I thought you suggested he did it in front of my
17 house. They live a lot farther away from me, but I didn't hear about it.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this concludes my
20 May I offer to tender the two statements we just saw, 65 ter 6637
21 and 6638. Again, specifically for the purposes of impeachment. Now, I
22 know that some portions of it were read into the record. However, we
23 believe that it would serve the purposes of the Trial Chamber to have
24 these two statements which involve the witness directly into the
25 activities described in there.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object, Your Honour. [Microphone not
3 activated] If it is only for the --
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object if it was for impeachment because
6 it was already in the transcript, and I don't see any need to tender
7 these documents into evidence. There is no foundation for it.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I be permitted to put one more
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In terms of the foundation, I believe that we
13 have seen from these two statements that the witnesses are describing the
14 group that the witness has described and which he agrees are members of
15 his group, so I believe that's, from a foundational point of view, we
16 have something really solid in terms of how this is connected to the
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: In that case, it is not for the impeachment
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No, it's for the foundation. That's the
21 foundation, of course.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: We'll come back to this issue later on.
23 Mr. Zivanovic, do you have anything in redirect?
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
25 May we see, please, Exhibit 6639. It is tab 17. Could you zoom
1 in, please. Just first paragraph.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dafinic, you can see here the name of the
4 police officer who wrote this statement. Do you know that officer? I
5 see his name is Tomislav Farkas.
6 A. Yes. I don't know Tomislav Farkas personally, but he once came
7 to see my mother-in-law in Borovo Selo, my daughter -- my wife's house as
8 well, and of course that's my house as well, inherited. And he said that
9 my wife should come to an interview related to some purported murder that
10 I committed and threw the bodies in a well. That was a well that I
11 shared with neighbours, including Pap, before the water-supply, the city
12 water-supply approached Borovo Selo. I first closed it and poured cement
13 over it. And then later we were building a swimming pool and then I
14 activated it again.
15 Anyway, the police officer threatened my wife that they would be
16 taken into custody, both she and her mother, unless she comes for that
17 interview. She was scared and then she told me that -- in fact, she
18 wrote to me asking if she could live with me. I said yes. After that I
19 received information that my mother-in-law, Ruza Blagojevic, was supposed
20 to come to Borovo Selo because a buyer for her house had been found. It
21 was to be sold to Zarko Aleksic, nicknamed The Marine. In fact, the
22 buyer was Zarko Aleksic's brother, and since Zarko Aleksic had bought a
23 house next door, it would be a good idea for me to sell him or, rather,
24 sell his brother that house.
25 That's what I was told. I told him to come so we can make a
1 deal. I would also sell him that house, but I wanted to see him face to
2 face because I don't believe that he would make that statement if he had
3 to look me in the eye.
4 Q. How long has it been since those threats made by Farkas to your
5 mother-in-law, and how long was it between that threat and the offer to
6 sell your house to this Aleksic?
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this does -- sorry. This does not
9 raise from the cross-examination. The purpose of showing this statement
10 had nothing to do with the man who took this statement. Counsel is now
11 exploring a completely different topic which has nothing to do with the
12 statement, so this does not arise out of cross-examination.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is closely related to the document and about
14 Mr. Farkas and his connections with somebody else who is very irrelevant
15 for -- in this case.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And that's exactly the point. It has nothing to
17 do with what I raised in cross-examination, Your Honours.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The document was raised and tried to be tendered,
19 and the portion of these documents were also seated into the transcript
20 without the name of the police officer who took this statement that was
21 challenged by the witness.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, the Rules --
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think it is very important to assess this.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, a document can contain a lot of
25 information. The rules of re-examination is that counsel is limited to
1 the topics which were raised in cross-examination.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would just say that it is weight -- it is go to
3 the weight of the credibility of the document, sorry.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could I just make a brief remark on
6 this point, with your leave.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm about to sustain the objection, Mr. Stringer.
8 MR. STRINGER: Very well. I'll save it for next time, because I
9 think there will be a next time in respect of redirect examination.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
11 Please move on, Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I've finished my redirect, sorry -- thank you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Dafinic, this brings your testimony to an end. We thank you
15 very much for coming to The Hague to assist the Tribunal. You're now
16 released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey home. The court
17 usher will escort you out of the courtroom. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank all of you for
20 giving me a chance to tell the truth, and I hope that truth will prevail.
21 Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: You may leave the courtroom, Mr. Dafinic.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: There is one little issue left.
25 On the record, page 55, line 23, where it is written that I said:
1 "We give the qualification private session as from that point,"
2 and what I said was: "We will lift the qualification of private session
3 as from that point."
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, before we complete for the day,
5 did you want to hear more about the two statements that we proposed, or
6 is it something that you were planning to deliberate on at a further
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: We are planning to think it over, Mr. Demirdjian.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned for the week.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day
13 of September, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.