1 Wednesday, 8 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. OLMSTED: Good morning, Your Honours. Matthew Olmsted and
14 Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 And for the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
18 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Zivanovic, yesterday at the start of the hearing, you
21 mentioned two incidents which, in your view, obstructed the proceedings
22 with a witness detained in the UNDU. As a general observation, the
23 Trial Chamber would advise the Defence to raise such issues directly with
24 the Registry. By explaining what is done at the UNDU and why it's done,
25 the Registry might have convinced you either that there was no room or
1 that there was no reason for such an intervention.
2 With regard to the first incident you mentioned, the one that
3 happened last Friday, the Defence obviously assumed that after having
4 provided documents to the detained witness in accordance with the UNDU
5 regulations, the detained witness could bring these documents by himself
6 to a proofing session. However, the regulations you referred to provide
7 for the following under bullet point 3:
8 "The detained witness is not permitted to enter the witness
9 proofing session with any documents, since it is a non-privileged
11 Our 3 September 2014 decision is, by no means, in conflict with
12 that regulation.
13 As to the second incident, a simple query to the Registry would
14 have learned that the UN DU regulations, in fact, do not prohibit the
15 counsel of a detained witness to share documents with his client during
16 the proofing session and that the UNDU management has taken measures to
17 avoid such an occurrence in the future.
18 The witness can be brought in, please.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Susa.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have to remind you that you are still under
24 Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 WITNESS: VOJIN SUSA [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Susa.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Yesterday I tried to show you a document and then gave up. Now
7 I'm going to go back to it. This is the constitutional law of the
8 Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. It was prepared
9 by your ministry.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, L1. It is tab 589. B/C/S
11 page 2, line 5. English -- no, no, B/C/S -- sorry. B/C/S page 2 and
12 English page 5.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell us whether this is the law
14 that we started talking about yesterday?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. I'm interested in Article 39 on page 5 of the original and
17 page 13 in the English version.
18 Could you please tell us why the constitutional law prescribes
19 that it is valid temporarily until the Yugoslav crisis is solved and
20 until a final constitutional status of the Serb District within
21 Yugoslavia is established?
22 A. I believe that this is rather self-explanatory, that our goal is
23 clear. At the moment when we passed the constitutional law, we didn't
24 know what the position of the Serb District was. Our main ambition was
25 to remain part of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia or some
1 other Yugoslavia that would possibly be created after the Socialist
2 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. Since it was premature at the moment
3 when the constitutional law was passed to talk about the possible
4 resolution of the crisis, we hedged ourselves, and that's why we said
5 that the document would have a temporary validity.
6 Q. Let's now move on to other rules and regulations. Could you
7 please tell us whether the Ministry of Justice drafted regulations within
8 the sphere of justice?
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. Did the Ministry of Justice also draft the Law on Courts?
11 A. Yes, a complete set of the laws relative to courts, prosecutor's
12 offices, misdemeanour courts. We drafted all that within the ministry.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up L22 under
14 tab 603.
15 Q. What you see on the screen, is that the Law on Courts that was
16 drafted by your ministry?
17 A. Yes, that's the law in question.
18 Q. Could you please tell us just briefly which courts were
19 established by that law.
20 A. We decide to have a three-tier competency of courts. First there
21 was a basic court, then a superior court, and a district court which is
22 also an appeals court. And there was a corresponding number of
23 prosecutor's offices. As for why economic courts, we didn't have enough
24 staff to set up an independent court of that nature which is why higher
25 courts had departments for white-collar crime. When we passed this
1 Law on Courts, we set up two basic courts, if you're interested.
2 Q. Just briefly.
3 A. The basic court in Vukovar with a temporary seat in Dalj and the
4 basic court in Beli Manastir. There was just one superior court in
5 Beli Manastir and there was a regional court in Vukovar with a temporary
6 seat in Dalj.
7 Q. Could you please tell us something about the competencies of
8 courts when it comes to criminal matter.
9 A. Yes, this was fully prescribed by the law when it came to crimes
10 for which the sentence was up to five years' imprisonment. Basic courts
11 were competent for those. Appeals court for those are higher courts and
12 higher courts were also in charge of the gravest crimes for which the
13 sentence was more than five years' imprisonment. And then the
14 second-instance court in those cases was a regional court which was the
15 appeals court for the cases that were heard by the superior courts.
16 Q. You said that appeals on judgements of higher courts were heard
18 A. The regional court as the second-instance court.
19 Q. In the preamble of this text we see that that law was passed on
20 the 9th of October, 1991. Do you remember whether judges were elected at
21 that time as well as public prosecutors that would be on those courts?
22 A. Only some of the staff were elected because we didn't have enough
23 personnel to fill up all the positions.
24 Q. Could you please tell us what conditions had to be met by the
25 judges and public prosecutors who were elected into those positions?
1 A. The same conditions as before the war; i.e., they had to have a
2 degree in law and they had to have passed a state bar exam. There were
3 pressures at first to involve laypersons, citizens of repute, as members
4 of those courts and prosecutor's offices were rejected by myself.
5 Q. When it came to the election of assessor judges, were those
7 A. Yes, they were envisaged. And I think that at first we elected
8 assessor judges for the basic court, and then some ten or 15 days later,
9 we also elected assessor judges for the higher court.
10 Q. Do you know that the municipal Assembly of Beli Manastir passed
11 certain regulations even before the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and
12 Western Srem was established and those regulations concerned property,
13 labour relations and similar things?
14 A. Yes, I know that. The municipality of Beli Manastir was specific
15 because they were not affected by war activities. They continued
16 functioning even after the elections in Croatia. They passed their
17 internal regulations, their bylaws. I have to tell you that I found a
18 lot of unlawful parts in them. Later, they all had to be amended and
19 adapted to the laws that we passed subsequently.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up L58 under
21 tab 627.
22 Q. We can see a decision to rescind the validity of the legal
23 regulations of the Republic of Croatia. This was passed on the
24 1st of September.
25 Do you know whether before this decision was passed, whether the
1 authorities in Beli Manastir had consulted you about this decision?
2 A. No, they never consulted me.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P2157, at
4 tab 639.
5 Q. On the screen, you can see a decision on the termination of
6 employment and prohibition to return and stay in Baranja of all persons
7 who were in enemy forces and people who helped them and their immediate
8 family members. You can see at the end of the text that it was drafted
9 and passed on the 1st September 1991. In the English translation, it is
10 on page 2.
11 This decision, was it passed after some consultation with the
12 government or your ministry or you personally?
13 A. If I had been consulted, I would have never allowed the passing
14 of this decision. It's a decision that I said already contains unlawful
15 elements; in some ways, even discriminatory. I do not agree with such
16 language, and I don't believe there should be prevention and sanction
17 included against anyone.
18 I mean, this is the kind of behaviour that we were already
19 subjected to, and we had no right to subject others to such conduct.
20 Q. Can you tell us what kind of influence did such decisions have.
21 How did they relate to the regulations adopted by the Great National
22 Assembly of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and later the government,
23 and how did they relate to the Yugoslav regulations whose application was
24 also envisaged?
25 A. In our regulations, there were no such arrangements. After the
1 passing of our own legislation, these decisions should have been
2 harmonised partially or fully repealed.
3 Q. Did you receive any information or reports that these decisions
4 continued to be applied even after the government was established?
5 A. No, I never had such reports.
6 Q. Did the Ministry of Justice have any jurisdiction over prisons in
8 A. We had the most direct jurisdiction over the prisons we had
9 established, because we were directly responsible for them. Those were
10 two prisons: The one in Dalj and the one in Beli Manastir which was part
11 of the investigation centre attached to the higher court of
12 Beli Manastir, district court of Beli Manastir.
13 Q. Who would be placed in such a prison?
14 A. Only persons who were placed there by decision of the
15 investigation centre or by a ruling of the judge of the basic or district
17 Q. Do you know that in addition to those two prisons which were
18 within the purview of the Ministry of Justice, there were some other
19 prisons in Dalj or generally in SBWS?
20 A. I was not aware of any such prisons. The only thing I know is
21 that, attached to every police station or every Secretariat for Internal
22 Affairs, there was a remand prison for persons suspected of having
23 committed crimes recently or much earlier. Such remand prisons existed.
24 They were not under our purview. A person could be held in such a remand
25 prison up to three days, according to the law.
1 Q. Can you tell us, where was this prison controlled by the
2 Ministry of Justice in Dalj?
3 A. I was in that prison for the first and last time when it was
4 opened. When you enter Dalj, the High Street of Dalj and then turn
5 right, it was a building adapted from some previous purpose. It was next
6 to a small church, and it was surrounded by private houses that were
7 inhabited. We knew that it was inadequate and temporary because we had
8 already started a renovation of the prison in Beli Manastir.
9 Q. For how long was this prison in Dalj used?
10 A. I don't think it was more than ten days because when it stopped
11 operating, it was connected with an incident. Very quickly, within a
12 very short time, all Serbs were placed in that prison, and the next day a
13 large number of their friends and sympathizers came to release them,
14 carrying weapons. The police stopped them from doing so and the
15 prisoners remained there. But already the next morning, explosives were
16 set up by the wall of the prison, probably with the intention of blowing
17 up the wall and releasing the prisoners. The explosion damaged the wall
18 of the prison and fortunately nobody was hurt. The explosion also
19 damaged the church nearby. The windows and tiles on both buildings were
20 shattered, and there was also damage to the private homes around.
21 With the assistance of the prison guards, we continued to hold
22 prisoners in that damaged building for a while but already the following
23 morning they were moved to Beli Manastir. Then we abandoned that prison.
24 It was no longer in our purview, and I don't know what happened to it
1 Q. When you said "the church nearby was damaged," what kind of
2 church was it?
3 A. I'm not sure. I can't say. It was a small place of worship. I
4 don't know it was even operating, but I don't know if it was Orthodox or
5 Catholic. I never asked. But it's true that it was damaged. The wall
6 cracked. All the windows were shattered, the roof tiles fell off, but it
7 was not destroyed. It didn't collapse.
8 Q. You said a barrel of explosives was set there. How do you know
9 that it was exactly there and not by the church?
10 A. Well, the police came and they made an on-site investigation and
11 compiled a record; I didn't interfere with that. But you could see
12 clearly where the primary explosion was.
13 Q. Who was the warden of that prison in Dalj, the one that was
14 within the purview of the Ministry of Justice?
15 A. The warden was one Mr. Zaric. I believe his name was Branislav.
16 He later moved to Beli Manastir and continued to work there.
17 Q. What was his training? What did he do before becoming the warden
18 of the prison in Dalj?
19 A. He, as well as the others, was a prison guard before, and they
20 worked in different prisons over Croatia in different ranks. I never
21 inquired. He used to work in some prison in Lipovica or Gradiska, or
22 maybe he worked even in the investigation centre. In any case, he was
23 qualified for the job.
24 Q. Do you know if any representatives of international organisations
25 visited the prisons in Dalj and Beli Manastir at the time of the
1 existence of SBWS?
2 A. When this temporary prison in Dalj was opened and when the prison
3 in Beli Manastir was opened, both Stevo Zaric and Mr. Kulic as the warden
4 of the prison in Beli Manastir and myself insisted that the ICRC
5 immediately register the existence of this prison. Records of prisoners
6 were kept, and they were visited and inspected once a year. They did
7 their job and we didn't interfere with it.
8 Q. When you mean "they visited," who do you mean?
9 A. Representatives of the ICRC came once a week. They talked to the
10 prisoners. They inquired after their health and general condition. And,
11 to be quite honest, they often helped us get hold of some supplies, like
12 toiletries, tinned food, et cetera.
13 Q. Did you perhaps hear of an incident that happened in Dalj on the
14 21st of September, 1991, wherein Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, extracted a
15 number of people from one prison and these people were later found dead?
16 A. From the prisons operated by people who were responsible to my
17 ministry, nobody was taken. I never heard of this incident.
18 Q. Did you hear that Goran Hadzic took out some detainees from that
19 prison in Dalj?
20 A. No, never.
21 Q. Was it ever discussed at a session of the government of Slavonia,
22 Baranja, and Western Srem?
23 A. If it had been discussed, I would have heard it, but I'm telling
24 you I never heard of any such thing. It was not discussed.
25 Q. Do you know maybe that the police had reported to the judiciary
1 of such an incident, the prosecutor's office, or judges?
2 A. I don't think they reported to anyone.
3 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I'm just objecting because the
4 witness already said he's never heard of this incident, so how would he
5 know whether it was reported or otherwise. So we're going into the realm
6 of speculation.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I agree.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Did you hear of any incident of 5 October 1991
9 wherein Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, took a group of Croatian prisoners
10 from that prison or another prison - it doesn't matter - and their bodies
11 were later found in the Jama river in Dalj?
12 A. I have to be very clear and precise: If I had heard of any of
13 the incidents you just enumerated, regardless of the fact that it was
14 outside of my work area, because I was a minister in the Ministry of
15 Justice, I would have found a way to bring it to the notice of people who
16 were responsible and to have this prosecuted.
17 Q. Could you tell us, generally speaking, what procedures were
18 applied by prosecutor's offices and courts in Slavonia, Baranja, and
19 Western Srem.
20 A. We applied federal legislation in terms of the criminal code and
21 the Law on Criminal Procedure, and we applied the laws of Serbia in
22 matters of criminal law. And that law, because of the objections I had
23 to the law of Serbia, was the law that we changed the quickest and most
25 What was the basic feature of our changes? We abolished the
1 death penalty, and we limited the term of imprisonment to 20 years. That
2 was my principle and my understanding that I had always advocated even
3 before as a lawyer and a prosecutor.
4 Q. Can you tell us briefly how did the legislation at the time treat
5 serious crimes, such as murders, aggravated robbery, rapes, et cetera?
6 A. The law that existed in Serbia that we initially enforced was
7 broadly speaking the same as the law that existed in the Republic of
8 Croatia before the amendments to the constitution and all that happened
9 after the multi-party elections. All our people had been trained to work
10 according to that Croatian legislation. The principles were the same.
11 For every serious crime that involved a sentence of imprisonment over
12 five years, an investigation was mandatory. For less serious crimes, you
13 could file a criminal complaint directly. If there existed a
14 well-grounded suspicion --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Susa. Mr. Susa, the interpreters asked you
17 to slow down because they have difficulty following you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I embarked on a
19 subject that is my speciality so I speeded up. I will repeat more
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I will tell you up to which point we have the translation so can
23 you continue.
24 You said for less serious crimes, you could file an indictment
25 directly. So start again from there.
1 A. When the prosecutor receives a criminal complaint from the police
2 and finds that there is a suspicion that a crime was committed, he
3 submits a request to conduct an investigation. That request is decided
4 upon by an investigating judge. If the investigating judge agrees that
5 there is a well-grounded suspicion that a crime has been committed, he
6 issues a decision to carry out an investigation. As a rule, when serious
7 crimes are involved, there is usually one of the possible four reasons to
8 put the person in remand. The judge decides to put the suspect in
9 remand -- excuse me. The prosecutor decides to put the suspect in
10 remand, and the investigating judge has to approve it. Thirty days is
11 the minimal term determined at the outset but it can also last very long,
12 all the way up to the point when the reasons that led to placing the
13 person in remand are no longer there.
14 Q. Could you please tell us, under the prevalent regulations what
15 was the longest remand in custody before indictment -- the indictment was
17 A. Six months.
18 Q. You remember the date when those laws were passed. That was on
19 the 9th of October. That's when the judges were elected. Did they start
20 working immediately, as soon as the laws were passed on the 9th of
21 October, 1991?
22 A. There were no technical capabilities in place for their work, and
23 not all the judges and assessor judges were elected at that time. We did
24 not have enough space. We did not have appropriate premises that could
25 serve as courtrooms, let alone some other technical problems, such as the
1 lack of typewriters, paper, and everything that is needed for the
2 everyday operations of a court.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D1007, tab 164. 164.
4 Q. [Interpretation] This is one of the decisions. I'm sure that
5 will you remember it because it bears your signature. This is about the
6 beginning of operations of the basic court in Vukovar with a temporary
7 seat in Dalj?
8 A. Yes, after the preparations.
9 Q. The date mentioned here as the start of the operations of this
10 prosecutor's office is the 4th of November, 1991. Is that the date when
11 all the other judiciary bodies started operating?
12 A. I believe so. When the chief administrator of a body finds that
13 all the conditions have been put in place for the start of operations, he
14 informs me about that and I pass a decision of this nature. I couldn't
15 pass a decision of this kind until I got a message from the people in the
16 field that they had everything that was necessary to launch the
17 operations of their institution.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D1007 will be Exhibit D218.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You've told us that there was this problem of the lack of
24 equipment. Did judiciary bodies have vehicles at their disposal when
25 they first started operating?
1 A. No. Unfortunately, they didn't have any vehicles at all. People
2 often used their own private cars as company cars for as long as they had
3 the money to buy fuel. Much later, we did receive some cars that were
4 shared by two or three separate bodies. That was a prevalent body which
5 marked pioneering stages of work. Most of my work boiled down to dealing
6 with the marketing work, as it were. I toured Serbia to raise funds,
7 collect equipment, and bring all that over to our region where we tried
8 to create our own judiciary bodies.
9 Q. Do you remember whether vehicles were requested for the work of
10 judiciary bodies?
11 A. Yes. Very often such requests were made. I suppose that I got
12 on people's nerves with my requests of that kind. I looked for them
13 where there were some to be had. Particularly the military had them and
14 they stored them at various places, and one such place was in Ilok. When
15 I turned to the Ilok command to approve two or three cars for our use,
16 they never even replied. They never even answered our letter.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D844. It is tab 26.
18 Q. [Interpretation] What you can see here is one of the requests in
19 respect of the procurement of vehicles. Is this one of the requests that
20 was submitted by the judiciary bodies to the military, asking them to
21 provide them with vehicles for official use?
22 A. Yes. You can see that the heads of all the judiciary bodies
23 signed this letter and stamped it to make it look very serious. However,
24 it was all to no avail. Nothing came out of this letter, as well as of
25 any others.
1 Q. Can you just briefly tell us why were official vehicles needed?
2 Why did the court -- courts need vehicles to deal with their criminal
4 A. I'm sure that you have learned in this case that our territory
5 was wide and long. Sometimes we had to travel 300 metres, on very scenic
6 routes, from south to north, from east to west. How could you carry out
7 an on-site inspection if you couldn't get there? Those on-site
8 inspections were sometimes carried out by the military or the police
9 alone, and when they reached us, there were some errors in them that were
10 very hard to correct subsequently. If nobody else, at least an
11 investigating judge had to be sent to the site of crime to carry out or
12 be involved in an on-site investigation there.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document into
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D844 is Exhibit D219.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. According to what you know, could you please tell us whether the
19 Yugoslav People's Army informed the judiciary bodies of Slavonia,
20 Baranja, and Western Srem about the crimes that they may have detected?
21 A. We have to be very clear and precise in that. The Yugoslav
22 People's Army, in keeping with their authorities in the field, which
23 constituted a zone of combat activities, was not supposed to inform us
24 about anything. Despite that, we asked them to inform us so that we
25 could make a contribution and so that we could get involved in dealing
1 with some of the problems that appeared in the field. We noticed that
2 very often their organs, which were the primary point of contact when it
3 came to interviewing suspects or eye-witnesses or securing the site of
4 crime, did not do their job properly. In most of the cases, we were
5 never informed about any of the procedures that they may have carried
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, tab 674. It is P104.
8 Q. [Interpretation] This is one of the reports drafted by the
9 security organ of the Yugoslav People's Army. This is concerning
10 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and his conduct. We have several such
11 reports, but I chose this one by way of example. This is about the
12 murder of some imprisoned members of the ZNG and some other persons.
13 Did you ever receive any reports about such crimes, especially
14 involving Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, or reports that some proceedings had
15 been instigated by the military judiciary bodies against him?
16 A. I repeat: I personally never received any reports either from
17 the people from the judiciary, which is particularly significant, or the
18 military, which was not duty-bound to inform me about anything,
19 especially about the crimes of this nature. It would have been only
20 logical that this would have caused a reaction among the military
21 judiciary bodies if this indeed had happened because this report was sent
22 to military bodies. I don't know whether this really happened or not.
23 Q. We will continue talking about the judiciary bodies of Slavonia,
24 Baranja, and Western Srem, on the one hand, and military bodies, on the
25 other, and their jurisdictions.
1 Before that, I wanted to raise another topic. When the military
2 operations around Vukovar were over, did you go to Vukovar?
3 A. I did once.
4 Q. Could you please tell us why you visited Vukovar once the
5 military operations were over.
6 A. On the eve of my departure for Vukovar, there was a regular
7 session of the government in Erdut. And during that session, we received
8 a report - the chairperson, Goran Hadzic, informed us about that - that
9 on the following day, the operations for the liberation of Vukovar would
10 be over the following day and that we should appear in Vukovar on that
11 day. So it was, in a way, demanded from a majority of the ministers who
12 were able to go to Vukovar to do so. We were to meet at Velepromet
13 around noon. I received that information. I was already in the hallway,
14 discussing certain things with some people, and as the secretary of the
15 government was leaving the meeting hall, he conveyed the information to
17 Shall I continue?
18 Q. Go on, go on.
19 A. On the following day, I got up. I didn't feel well. I was
20 already coming done with a migraine that I suffer from --
21 Q. I apologise for interrupting. Let's go back to the previous day
22 and to the session of the government in Erdut. What should been the
23 nature of your visit to Vukovar? What were you supposed to do there?
24 What was the purpose of your visit? How did you understand that?
25 A. The way I understood the whole situation was that it would have
1 been a symbolic visit to Vukovar. We were supposed to see as many people
2 as possible, and in most banal terms, that visit should have given us
3 some political points.
4 Q. What was the nature of the meeting in Vukovar?
5 A. I never realised that until the moment I came to that meeting.
6 Q. Do you remember whether a government session should have taken
7 place in Vukovar? Was there an agenda, or was that to be only an
8 informal visit?
9 A. I thought that it would be an informal visit.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Olmsted.
11 MR. OLMSTED: I need to start objecting with regard to these
12 contentious issues but this is a very leading question.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: The witness has the option to answer the
15 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, the leading nature is that the --
16 Defence counsel is testifying for the witness. It is putting to the
17 witness that this was an informal meeting without an agenda and, of
18 course, the witness, being a Defence witness, is agreeing with that.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see the witness -- it is just clarification of
21 the witness's answer in line 20. He stated that:
22 "The way I understood the whole situation was that it would have
23 been a symbolic visit to Vukovar."
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: But then, Mr. Zivanovic, in line 24 -- in
25 line 24, the question is:
1 "What was the nature of the meeting in Vukovar?"
2 And then the witness answers:
3 "I never realised that until the moment I came to that meeting."
4 But he didn't - and I would say you didn't allow him to - explain
5 what the nature of the meeting was.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, I'll not -- I'll not insist on the
7 answer to that question at all.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Could you continue what you started to say about
9 the 20th November when you had that migraine.
10 A. Yes, of course, I don't need any suggestions to continue. And I
11 thank both you and the Prosecutor.
12 That morning, I already woke up with a slight headache. I was
13 close to deciding not to go anywhere, but then my escort came to see me.
14 He's actually my friend, Nikola Drpa, and he begged me to take that trip
15 at all costs. He is a native of Vukovar, and I suppose he was keen to
16 see in what condition his house was and his friends as well who remained
17 there. He couldn't take the trip without me because if I was not going,
18 the driver was staying with me in Belgrade. So I agreed to go.
19 And now I can't remember whether we picked up Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic
20 in Novi Sad and drove with him to Sid or we picked him up in Sid. At any
21 rate, the four of us - Mr. Vojnovic, Mr. Drpa, the driver,
22 Radoslav Zlatic, and myself - arrived in Vukovar around 10.30. The route
23 was from Negoslavci, and the part of town where we arrived is called
24 Petrova Gora. In that part of the city, the buildings were not
25 destroyed, although you could see damage on the roofs and houses but all
1 the buildings were standing.
2 As you went towards the building of Velepromet, the crowds were
3 thicker and thicker. Many passenger cars, buses, trucks and many
4 pedestrians were crowding the streets. We parked there, and we continued
5 on foot down the street which was supposed to take us to the house of
6 Nikola Drpa. We left the building and the yard of Velepromet on the
7 left. There I saw hundreds and hundreds of people moving about, and I
8 noticed representatives of the ICRC, monitors of the European community
9 in white.
10 And when we had walked another 3- or 400 metres, the street
11 starts going downhill and you get a panorama of the city, and then we
12 beheld all the horror that Vukovar was at that time. I don't know if
13 there was a single undamaged building. They were all unbelievably
14 destroyed and only chimneys were pointing upwards.
15 I don't know that city very well, but another couple of streets
16 down, we started going downhill towards the right. Soldiers from the
17 sanitization section were collecting bodies and probably preparing them
18 for further transport. One of the soldiers asked where we were going,
19 and we said -- in fact, Drpa explained where his house was, and the
20 soldier said: But, people, there are still trip-wire mines there. You
21 are walking on very dangerous ground.
22 Still, we all continued and reached his house only to find that
23 there was only one room of his house remaining. And there we found four
24 or five half-drunken soldiers who were looting things from his house.
25 Fortunately, it all ended well because, as far as I understood, they were
1 even ready to shoot at us. So a bit confused and frightened, we returned
2 to the Velepromet building. I believe that from arrival to Vukovar to
3 Velepromet, we were there for one hour or 70 minutes, max.
4 Q. Can you tell us, on that 20th November, did you need any special
5 permit to go to Vukovar?
6 A. I already emphasised earlier, it was a precondition, it was a
7 technical requirement to move from Sid to the combat zone. I know my
8 driver went to get those permits because I didn't leave the car. He
9 brought these permits, and we continued on our way. And on the
10 check-point, we produced these permits and we were allowed to pass
12 Q. Who was manning the check-point?
13 A. The army. Only the army.
14 Q. Can you tell us, in Velepromet itself, did a meeting take place?
15 A. Yes. We had to wait for that meeting to begin. In the yard of
16 Velepromet, there was the little house where the police was, and in the
17 yard, a huge number of people were standing. I saw Zeljko Raznjatovic,
18 Arkan, Goran Hadzic, Vitomir Devetak, but they were all standing in
19 little clusters of people whom they obviously knew. I was standing with
20 Vojislav [as interpreted] Vojnovic and people came up to him, people who
21 knew him. They talked to him. I was just an observer. I had really
22 nothing to talk about with these people.
23 We spent a whole hour standing there. And it was becoming
24 awkward. Of course, officers were milling around, going in and out of
25 offices. It's a huge space. And then an officer showed up, a
1 lieutenant-colonel, who invited us to go into the first room to the right
2 of the entrance. He opened the door, and I believe Goran told us: Go
3 in, please. So I went in too.
4 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many people were in that room?
5 A. When you go into that room, which is rectangular, I would say, to
6 the left of the door, and the door is to the extreme left of that room,
7 right next to the door, there was a table against the wall and around it
8 were chairs. And then tables were placed like in a classroom. I believe
9 there were four rows of tables with two chairs by each table, so people
10 were coming in and taking seats, and there were perhaps ten more people
11 leaning against the wall. When we got in, I sat down, I believe it was
12 the third bench from the door in the fourth row. Vojnovic sat down next
13 to me and the others followed. At the head of the table, there was
14 Dr. -- there was Mr. Hadzic.
15 People were coming in and going out. If you ask how many people
16 there were, I would say that at any time there were 30 people but that
17 number varied all the time.
18 Q. Let's just see if there are some points that are not clear on the
20 First of all, you said you were standing in the yard of
21 Velepromet with Vojislav Vojnovic.
22 A. No, that was Bogdan Vojnovic. There is no such person as
23 Vojislav Vojnovic. There is only Milos Vojnovic and Bogdan Vojnovic.
24 Bogdan Vojnovic was with me.
25 Q. When you said that Vojnovic sat down next to you, which Vojnovic
1 you meant?
2 A. On that day, there was no Milos Vojnovic in Velepromet, only
3 Bogdan Vojnovic who was with me.
4 Q. You mean he wasn't standing next -- sitting next to you?
5 A. Milos? Milos was not there at the session in Velepromet. It was
6 Bogdan who was in Velepromet with me, and he was sitting next to me.
7 Q. And what happened later, once you sat down?
8 A. This lieutenant-colonel stood up, greeted us, and introduced
9 himself. He said his name was Vojnovic. Now we have the third Vojnovic,
10 and to avoid confusion, we have to be clear. And the confusion is still
11 greater because I don't know to this day whether he is Vojnovic or
12 Vojinovic, and it's not clear to me to this day.
13 He started saying: As you see, the operations to liberate
14 Vukovar are coming to an end. There are small pockets of resistance that
15 will be overcome by the end of the day. And then came the first
16 responses from Dr. Mladen Hadzic who interrupted the lieutenant-colonel,
17 stood up and made a long introductory speech. And then he wound up more
18 and more, getting ever rougher with this Vojnovic until he finally
19 attacked him very fiercely about the way in which the army proceeded in
20 Vukovar, resulting in a complete destruction of the city.
21 To some point, I understood this emotional reaction of
22 Dr. Mladen Hadzic, because probably a number of people in Vukovar
23 realised that very day that their houses were destroyed. It was a
24 difficult thing to take in, and they were finding it hard to deal with
1 After this very harsh critique against the heavy-handedness of
2 the army, some other people took the floor, including Slavko Dokmanovic,
3 who was even rougher on this Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic and ended by
4 saying it would have been better if nothing had been done. It would have
5 been better if we had come to agreement with the Ustashas, if the city
6 had remained standing, and then we would have later come to an
7 arrangement how to divide it.
8 Vitomir Devetak was next to speak, also condemning such a heavy
9 use of equipment and weapons. And Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic
10 defending -- defended himself with arguments that were to some point
11 true. He said simply that they didn't have enough troops and that all
12 the loss of life was too much so they opted for this way to proceed. All
13 that is destroyed can be rebuilt, but people's lives cannot be recovered.
14 I did not say anything in that discussion. There was no subject
15 for me to react to. However, a subject was then broached by
16 Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic himself who said: As a result of the final
17 operations, we now have a large number of prisoners, and those prisoners
18 who will surrender today will be transported to three different
19 destinations in Serbia. I believe he said - and I'm almost sure - that
20 those were Sremska Mitrovica, Begejci, and Stajicevo. All this was fine
21 but then he added: And then when we establish their exact number, when
22 we establish their identity, we will enforce the rules and the procedure
23 we have used so far, namely, an exchange all for all.
24 Then I asked for the floor. I introduced myself, and I said:
25 Lieutenant-Colonel, and what about crimes, the crimes that had continued
1 for almost the whole past year? He answered: The war crimes are in the
2 exclusive jurisdiction of the army.
3 That was not in dispute, not then and not now. But I emphasised
4 I didn't mean only war crimes. I meant crimes in their continuity,
5 crimes about which, by that time, we had a pile of documentation. How
6 were we going to know who committed these crimes unless we get hard
7 evidence? Direct evidence that we can get by interrogating people who
8 were not perpetrators maybe but have some knowledge. I said: You have
9 to make it possible for professional interviews in pre-investigating and
10 investigative procedures to take place so that we can get evidence on
11 serious crimes and war crimes. We suggest that you give it a think and
12 we will certainly come up a proposal that in all stages of this
13 procedure, we be involved in Vukovar, both as investigators and as
14 judges. He said: I am not the right person to talk about this. You can
15 do that in the period that follows and approach somebody else. And he
16 went on to say: I repeat, among these people, there are very few
17 criminals. Most of them are people who were forcibly mobilised. I did
18 not say any different. But, at that moment, Goran Hadzic asked for the
19 floor and said: Lieutenant-Colonel, we have often discussed that there
20 were many crimes committed. We don't know how many criminals there are.
21 I will agree with you that their number is perhaps smaller than the
22 numbers we have in mind now but we cannot know until these crimes are
23 investigated who are the perpetrators. At this moment, unfortunately,
24 all we know is that there are a large number of victims. He said also:
25 You know that we, as the government, have taken a very clear stance and
1 we do not identify the Croatian people with criminals, and we are
2 perfectly aware that we will have to peacefully coexist in the future.
3 By that time, Goran was standing.
4 And then after saying this he, and perhaps Arkan with him, left
5 the room. Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic addressed us against and said: So
6 we have finished with this subject. We are now introducing a military
7 administration in Vukovar. I am the new commander of Vukovar and,
8 please, if there are any problems that you think I can assist with,
9 please approach me and we should perhaps have more frequent consultations
10 in the future.
11 So this discussion that took perhaps about an hour was over and
12 we all started leaving. As I was passing through the gate, I saw
13 Goran talking to somebody. He just asked me briefly: What did you agree
14 about? I said: I don't really know. We will have to address a request,
15 I don't know to whom, that we are allowed to be involved in the
16 investigative proceedings. And after that, we got into the car and drove
17 to Belgrade.
18 All the rest I have already explained in my statement and in my
19 evidence in the Slavko Dokmanovic case.
20 Q. Would you be able to remember which other government members
21 attended that meeting that you have just described for us?
22 A. I mentioned Dr. Mladen Hadzic. Perhaps I should start with
23 Goran Hadzic. Vitomir Devetak, Bogdan Vojnovic, myself, Bogdan Vorkapic,
24 Boro Bogunovic, Caslav Ocic, the government secretary, Jovan Pejakovic.
25 I apologise. I can't remember anybody else. There may have been other
1 people, but I can't remember them.
2 Q. Do you remember whether a record was taken of that meeting?
3 A. No. I suppose that some of the officers would have done that or
4 perhaps Jovan Pejakovic. It was a government session so it would have
5 been Jovan Pejakovic. Jovan Pejakovic was sitting somewhere in the back
6 of the room and I never saw him before we actually started leaving the
7 meeting room.
8 Q. Do you remember whether there was a subsequent meeting at which
9 the minutes from Velepromet were adopted?
10 A. There were no minutes taken at the session which was held at
12 Q. Do you remember, apart from Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic, were
13 there any other officers present at the meeting; can you remember?
14 A. There were three or four men, perhaps even five. One of them was
15 Major Sljivancanin. At the beginning of the meeting, he peeked through
16 the door to see who was there and left. Apart from Vojnovic, who
17 introduced himself to us, whom I didn't know, the others never introduced
18 themselves to us and I didn't know them from before either.
19 Q. Before the meeting started, or in the course of the meeting, did
20 anybody try to establish a quorum?
21 A. No, no quorum was established.
22 Q. Do you remember if anybody tried to explain why Ilija Kojic did
23 not attend the meeting?
24 A. As far as I remember, nobody mentioned Ilija Kojic.
25 Unfortunately, nobody did. At that time, Ilija Kojic was in Belgrade
1 fighting for his life.
2 Q. Before the meeting, or in the course of the meeting, did anybody
3 inform the attendees of the agenda?
4 A. There was no agenda. Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic delivered a
5 keynote address. He tackled the first topic. He was the one who had the
6 floor all the time, and all of us intervened, some of us adequately, some
7 of us less adequately. Some were shouting, some were not. It all
8 depended on the emotional state of those people.
9 Q. Did anybody say that the agenda was the same as the previous
11 A. No, the agenda was not the same. There was no agenda to speak
13 Q. Just one more question. Did you stay throughout the meeting from
14 the very beginning to the very end?
15 A. Yes, from the beginning to the end.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see the clock, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 We'll take the first break, 30 minutes. We'll be back at 11.00.
19 Court adjourned.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Susa, I will continue with my questions
2 about the meeting at Velepromet.
3 Are you able to tell us if at this meeting, perhaps you requested
4 an explanation as to where 1.500 prisoners were taken?
5 A. Nobody spoke about the number of prisoners at that meeting.
6 Knowing what the authority of the JNA was, I wouldn't even ask about any
7 group of prisoners, knowing that they were completely under the
8 jurisdiction of the Yugoslav People's Army. Had any of my colleagues
9 spoken up and asked about it, I would have tried to explain to him what
10 it was all about.
11 Q. At the meeting, did Goran Hadzic ask you if there was enough
12 capacity to accommodate the prisoners?
13 A. At that meeting in that room, Goran Hadzic didn't ask me
14 anything. I've already told you what he asked me when we were in the
15 Velepromet yard. But Goran Hadzic had to have known that our capacities
16 were very slight in the Beli Manastir district prison where the maximum
17 number we could accommodate was 120 prisoners.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted.
19 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours. I should have rose faster, but
20 these are very leading questions.
25 MR. OLMSTED: I'm a bit -- well, first of all, I'm a bit
1 concerned by what Mr. Zivanovic just said on public record here, which --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: You want to go into private session?
3 MR. OLMSTED: Perhaps we should.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 12001-12002 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Did anybody mention General Jefto Crnalic [phoen]?
8 A. No. I don't know who that is.
9 Q. And do you remember if the people at the meeting were waiting for
10 an officer of the JNA to appear with some news or anything like that?
11 A. Well, nobody told me that we were waiting for anyone, and I
12 really couldn't conclude anything like that on the basis of anything that
14 Q. And before the end of the meeting, did an officer of the JNA
15 appear who gave some sort of sign by nodding his head or something like
16 that and then everybody left the room, and that's how the meeting
18 A. I didn't leave the room after any officer appeared. I didn't
19 notice anyone. I left the meeting when Mr. Vojnovic said that the
20 meeting was finished.
21 Q. And did any government member threaten the army at the meeting by
22 saying that your units would be brought in from SBWS, units with arms,
23 anything like that?
24 A. No, there were no such threats, and we didn't have any armed
25 forces to make threats with. There were raised voices and mutual
1 quarrels, but nobody threatened anybody with any weapons.
2 Q. Are you able to remember what you were wearing at the meeting?
3 A. I always wore an old military uniform that was comfortable and
4 pleasant. I didn't have any other clothing, unfortunately. This was --
5 you know the sort of uniform that I'm talking about. It's an old work
6 uniform of olive-drab colour. I'm not really good as describing it, but
7 I think you know the one.
8 Q. And do you remember what the other people were wearing? I'm not
9 talking about the JNA officers but the others who were present at that
11 A. Bogdan Vojnovic, who was closest to me, was carrying civilian
12 clothing. He was wearing some sort of thick jacket. All the others were
13 wearing military uniforms, newer ones, older ones. There were different
14 kinds of uniform. Most of them were wearing brown uniforms and some of
15 them were wearing camouflage.
16 Q. And do you remember if anybody wore blue police uniforms?
17 A. I didn't notice anybody wearing that kind of uniform, no.
18 Q. And did anyone say that the prisoners had to be physically
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you perhaps remember if Dr. Vojislav Vukcevic was present at
22 the meeting?
23 A. Dr. Vojislav Vukcevic was my professor from Osijek. He taught
24 civil material law. I knew him very well. He wasn't at the meeting.
25 Had he been there, I would have definitely been sitting next to him.
1 Q. And do you remember if Vojin Dabic was at the meeting?
2 A. Vojin Dabic was not at the meeting. The first time I saw him and
3 met him was during the negotiations with the Croatian side, in Geneva.
4 Q. What about Ljuban Devetak, was he at the meeting?
5 A. I met Ljuban Devetak in Lovas during a very large meeting.
6 Vitomir Devetak was the one who was at the meeting. Ljuban was not at
7 the meeting in Velepromet; it was Vitomir who attended that meeting.
8 Q. Do you know what Ljuban Devetak was doing in Lovas?
9 A. When I went to Lovas, I found out that he was the director of the
10 agricultural combine there -- agricultural co-operative there.
11 Q. You spoke about the crimes that were committed in Vukovar around
12 the time when the military operations were being brought to an end. Did
13 the government have a position with regard to those crimes of which they
14 were informed as having been committed before and during the military
15 operations in Vukovar?
16 A. It was not the government's position. It was everybody's
17 position and everywhere. The position is that perpetrators of crimes
18 should be taken to task, and that was also the government's position.
19 Q. I'm now going to show you the transcript of a video-clip, a part
20 of a video footage, actually. You will see Goran Hadzic's words. I'm
21 not going to play the video itself.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's P58, tab 709. I'm
23 interested in the second page in the original and in the English
24 translation. You will see -- in the original it will be the first
25 paragraph where Goran Hadzic is saying something and in the English
1 translation it will be in the last paragraph on this page.
2 Q. He says as follows:
3 "As I said, I'm not concerned with the military issue. I'm
4 positive about the final solution. However, I'm concerned because I
5 received information from some of our services. They tell me that the
6 situation in Zagreb, and we know what happened in Vukovar, that
7 large-scale crime was committed against the civilian population. We will
8 investigate that and we will bring perpetrators before an
9 international -- a national court, or a people's court. I am certain
10 that they will be punished according to what they did."
11 Could you please tell us whether these words uttered by
12 Goran Hadzic with regard to processing those crimes reflect the position
13 of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Susa, after the meeting at Velepromet, did you undertake any
16 measures and make sure that the judiciary of SBWS got involved in the
17 investigations of the imprisoned members of the Croatian armed forces?
18 A. Yes. Milos Vojnovic was in charge of the technical part of the
19 job. On one occasion, he informed me who his collocutor was on the other
20 side as opposed to address him for a permit [as interpreted].
21 Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic pointed that to me. Milos Vojnovic and I
22 drafted a letter to the commander of the 1st Military District. We
23 received an answer. Milos set up a team of investigators, and they
24 embarked on the job on the task at hand in the penal correctional
25 facility in Sremska Mitrovica.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, P3262. It is tab 301.
2 Q. [Interpretation] Please look at the screen. There is a letter on
3 it. Could you please tell us whether this is the letter that you sent to
4 the command of the 1st Army District?
5 A. Yes, this is my letter.
6 Q. Tell me, please, whether your request was met.
7 A. Yes, it was.
8 Q. After that, did you go to Sremska Mitrovica? Did you go and
9 visit this correctional and penal facility in Sremska Mitrovica?
10 A. Yes, on two occasions, the first time and the last time.
11 Q. Could you please describe your first visit to Sremska Mitrovica.
12 A. On that occasion, I went together with the investigating judges.
13 We reported to the superior officer there. They entered the facility,
14 not immediately. We were informed that the officer in charge was waiting
15 for us in the hotel which was part of the correctional facility. We went
16 there. Several officers of the JNA were already there. The judges were
17 allowed to go to their rooms, and then they returned to the lobby. We
18 were all sitting there, talking, having cups of coffee.
19 Q. On that occasion, did you enter the prison? Did you see the
21 A. No, I didn't. And according to the information that I received
22 from the judges, the judges were able to do that a few hours later. On
23 that occasion, I myself did not enter the correctional facility.
24 Q. Do you remember any of the judges who were with you on that
1 A. Yes, Jovan Ajdukovic, Grujo Amidzic, Slobodan Kovacevic, and
2 three or four colleagues whom I didn't know that well.
3 Q. Who did you talk to on that occasion; do you remember?
4 A. I talked to all the officers. In other words, we all
5 participated in the talks. And the person whom I perceived as their boss
6 and who introduced himself as Branko Ruzic is who talked to us as well.
7 But then, at the end of that conversation, he told us that he wasn't
8 Branko Ruzic but Bogdan Vujic. I found that very strange. He told me:
9 That's common practice amongst us. We don't always give people our real
10 name. I found that a bit funny and I asked him: So are you Bogdan? And
11 he said: Yes, I am Bogdan Vujic. I talked to him, he was seated next to
12 me. We were drinking coffee. We did not discuss the topic which brought
13 the people to the correctional facility in the first place. We discussed
14 general topics more than anything else.
15 Q. Did you talk about the scope of authority that these officers had
16 vis-à-vis the prisoners? Did they have the decision-making power, were
17 they able to decide what measures to undertake against them?
18 A. One of them, I believe that it was Mr. Bogdan Vujic who said that
19 they were just an operative group involved in pre-investigation
20 procedures which is only normal. And he said that we -- they don't make
21 any decisions regarding the prisoners, that it will be somebody else
22 elsewhere who will make those decisions. I suppose that he had in mind
23 the command in Belgrade and I found that normal and clear.
24 Q. Do you remember any other officer? Do you remember the names of
25 any other officers?
1 A. No, I don't remember their names. They probably introduced
2 themselves to me, but I don't remember their names. The only name I do
3 remember is Mr. Vujic's name.
4 Q. Could you please tell us how come you remember his name and not
5 any others?
6 A. Because Bogdan Vujic and I continued meeting directly and
7 indirectly. On that day when I was leaving the parking lot in front of
8 the correctional and penal facility in Sremska Mitrovica, my driver and
9 my escort were standing right next to me. Mr. Vujic appeared from the
10 correctional facility. He approached me in a haste. He was carrying a
11 transparent plastic bag in his hand. When he was some 2 or 3 metres away
12 from us, I realised that that was a big bag, that it contained some
13 15 kilos of money, German marks. He extended his hand. He gave me that
14 bag and he told me: This is yours. Take that to the people of Vukovar.
15 I said: That's all fantastic, but, Mr. Vujic, I have time, why don't we
16 make a record of this hand-over? Why don't we count the money? Why
17 don't you sign a hand-over note? Why don't I sign a receipt for that
18 money? And he says: Listen, are you taking the money or not? I said:
19 Yes, I will take it but in the manner that I've just described to you.
20 He turned around and he said: It's very clear that you don't need this
21 money, and he left.
22 I complained about what he did even to some military personnel
23 whom I know -- whom I knew and with whom I was on good terms. I suppose
24 that the word reached him eventually. On one occasion, he sent me a very
25 ugly and very strange message through my driver, and the message was that
1 I would have a lot of problems. I don't know why. He didn't tell me
2 why. He wasn't specific with this regard. My driver conveyed the
3 message to me, and his advice was: I don't know what this is about, but
4 you should watch what you do. You should be careful.
5 Q. Could you please look at the last paragraph in this letter of
6 yours, which we see on the screen. It says here that volunteers and
7 members of the TO have committed a number of offences against property
8 and that military police organs confiscated items from them, and so on
9 and so forth.
10 What's this about? What does this part of your letter refer to?
11 A. You did not read all of it, did you? I didn't say that it was
12 done only by members of volunteer units and some members of TO units. I
13 said that, unfortunately, some members of the JNA were involved in some
14 dealings as well -- in the same dealings as well. That area was very
15 affluent before the war, as you probably know, and even after the war
16 destructions, a lot of property was left over. Cars, combines, valuable
17 assets used in agricultural, household appliances, and things like that.
18 And it was a common practice that some higher ranking officers also
19 subscribed to. All that was war booty, and those assets were
20 continuously driven away from the area. In one part of my letter, I
21 point to that as well. The value of that property would have been huge
22 for everybody, and especially for us, under such conditions, and losing
23 such valuable property made us even poorer.
24 Q. Why did you refuse to take the money that was offered to you by
25 Mr. Vujic?
1 A. I am a cautious man. I behave in accordance with the law. I
2 really couldn't assume how much money was in that bag. I knew of similar
3 instances where things were not recorded properly, and it was all about
4 hearsay as to what was received, what was given, and it was simply
5 unacceptable for me.
6 Q. On that occasion when you were offered money and when you turned
7 the offer down, was there anybody else there besides you and Vujic?
8 A. I mentioned them, Nikola Drpa and Radoslav Zlatic.
9 Q. You've told us that Vujic sent you messages through your driver.
10 What messages were those?
11 A. Between my first and second visits to the correctional facility,
12 my driver went there on his own several times. He carried documents and
13 personal effects to the judges who were there.
14 On the second or third occasion when he went on his own,
15 Bogdan Vujic told him that he should convey a message to me, and that was
16 that as a result of my conduct, I was -- I would suffer grave
17 consequences. And I took that to be a very serious threat.
18 Q. What kind of conduct of yours provoked him to react in such a
20 A. I don't think that -- no conduct of mine should have provoked
21 such a reaction. You should ask him what irritated him in my behaviour.
22 Q. After that first trip -- I mean, you said you were in Mitrovica
23 twice. Can you describe the second trip, how did it come about and why?
24 A. The second time I went to Sremska Mitrovica, it had been planned
25 after I received disturbing reports from the judges there. My contact
1 person was Jovan Ajdukovic, and once he called me on the phone and said
2 he was calling me from a telephone outside the KPD and outside the hotel
3 because there were serious problems in their communication with JNA
4 officers, or, that is to say, their team that was doing the triage of
5 prisoners. He explained that they were not allowed to have contact with
6 prisoners, not even in the presence of the JNA on which they hadn't
7 insisted in the first place, but they were finally allowed to have that
8 contact. However, they were not allowed to question prisoners as they
9 wanted to, and instead the army made them put questions that were
10 pointless. He was especially disturbed by the fact that from the list
11 that would be delivered to them when they wanted to contact somebody,
12 they would regularly be informed that these people were no longer in the
13 KPD, and this report was confirmed to me by some civilian officers in the
14 KPD guards team.
15 It was very serious, in his view, and he addressed Vujic and
16 asked how is it possible that people were disappearing from this list?
17 What rulings were made in their respect? What procedure is applied?
18 Vujic told him that everything he was saying, he should put on paper.
19 Ajdukovic did that, took it to Vujic's office. Vujic read it and threw
20 it in the wastebasket. Ajdukovic said he was no longer willing to
21 continue working like that and that I should receive his report and
22 organise their return to Vukovar. He said he had spoken to all the
23 colleagues. They all shared his opinion. So I answered: All right,
24 Jovan. I will come tomorrow and organise that you leave this project,
25 return home, and take up some work which is more adequate.
1 I informed the secretary of the government, Jovan Pejakovic, that
2 I would be going to Vukovar -- to Mitrovica the next day, as I normally
3 informed everyone that I would not be in Erdut on a particular day. I
4 don't know if the others did the same, but I always did it. And then I
5 was told by Pejakovic: Goran is also going there tomorrow. He didn't
6 say when, but I organised my time and my schedule so as to be in the KPD
7 at the same time as Goran. Goran himself didn't tell me anything.
8 Anyway, the next day, we met outside the building of the KPD.
9 Japundzic and Mudrinic were together with Goran as well as the minister
10 of the interior, Boro Bogunovic. I told Goran why I had come, but I
11 didn't understand what his business there was. He said: These people
12 invited me for some sort of discussion. That was all. So I didn't
13 really understand why he had come there.
14 We went in together, into the hotel. At the hotel, we were met
15 by officers, including Mr. Bogdan Vujic with whom I had no further
16 communication. The talk was very general, about the political situation,
17 about the situation on the ground, about Vukovar, about various problems.
18 And then at one point, one of these officers - but not Bogdan Vujic -
19 suggested to Goran that he should go into the KPD compound and meet with
20 prisoners, and he said -- that person said: Don't be afraid. It's
21 completely safe.
22 As I saw it, it was some sort of provocation, because if Goran
23 refused, he would look like a coward, who was afraid. So Goran said:
24 All right, I'll go. And I decided to go with him. Again, Drpa and
25 Zlatic and Goran's escorts and Boro Bogunovic went with us. There were a
1 number of officers as well -- as well as prisoner guards. We went into
2 the KPD and that was the first time I ever went into KPD Mitrovica in my
4 We descended into those rooms. It was a very old prison, built
5 at the time of Maria Therese [phoen], with huge dorms with 40 or 50 beds
6 each, and one of the large cells was opened for us. When we came,
7 everybody inside stood up by their beds, and we went in 2 or 3 metres in
8 the room. Goran greeted the people, and addressed the first officer
9 standing next to him, saying: Do you give these people baths at all? He
10 really wasn't used to this. It's true that it was winter, but in a place
11 housing so many people, it's difficult to maintain hygiene and there was
12 a very stale, unpleasant smell in the room. I don't know what this
13 officer answered.
14 Many of the people inside recognised Goran and shouted to him:
15 Goran. Asked him questions. He told them: I know you are not really
16 comfortable here, but it won't last forever. It will come to an end.
17 I'm sure that most of you are innocent and you will be going to your
19 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, this happened yesterday and I didn't
20 object. But these narratives which go on for 15, 20 minutes, it's not
21 conducive to the form of adjudication that we have in this Tribunal and
22 we object to this way of eliciting evidence.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Unfortunately, I did not understand the
25 objection. The witness spoke -- speaks about acts and conduct of the
1 accused. I don't know what is for objection at all.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Olmsted.
3 MR. OLMSTED: Well, I can explain it, Your Honours, if you wish,
4 to Mr. Zivanovic. But in an adversarial proceeding such as this one,
5 evidence is elicited through question and answer, and we don't have any
6 questions here. We just have a very, very long answer.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, please try to focus on questions
9 and answers.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] All right. My question, in fact, was limited to
12 the purpose of your visit to the KP Dom. You already explained what that
13 visit was like.
14 Did Goran Hadzic speak to the prisoners during that visit?
15 A. Yes, he did.
16 Q. On that occasion, did he question anybody?
17 A. No, there were 60 people there, and they were all talking to him
18 and he to them.
19 Q. Can you tell us how long were you inside the prison where the
20 prisoners were?
21 A. Ten minutes.
22 Q. On that occasion, were you together all the time, you and
23 Goran Hadzic, or did you go separate ways at some point while you were
25 A. We were all together in a group in a space of about 7 or 8 square
2 Q. Did the prisoners say anything to Goran Hadzic? Did they address
4 A. Well, they put to him various questions. One of them was
5 important to me. People were complaining they were returning out of
6 cigarettes, they didn't have enough, and I understood that perfectly well
7 because it would be difficult for me too.
8 Q. Throughout that time, were JNA officers there? Did they withdraw
9 at some point and leave you alone?
10 A. No, no, that didn't happen.
11 Q. While you were there, did any of you, Goran Hadzic, yourself, or
12 any of the officers or military personnel use any force against the
14 A. No.
15 Q. You mentioned that you had received the report about some people
16 who used to be on a list and then disappeared. Did you find anything out
17 about that?
18 A. We found out very easily ourselves. Some of these people were
19 sent away to be exchanged, which was perfectly fine, and some others paid
20 their way to Croatia through their relatives and friends, and that was
21 not all right.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, P3200. It is tab 587.
23 Q. [Interpretation] This is a letter concerning this visit that was
24 sent by the warden of the prison to the Security Administration of the
25 Federal Secretariat for National Defence. Is this the date when you
1 visited Sremska Mitrovica?
2 A. I don't know. Possibly.
3 Q. Is it correctly described in this letter that you came in order
4 to establish co-operation with the operative team that was questioning
5 the prisoners?
6 A. We thought we had already established that co-operation, and we
7 already had the approval of the higher command. That's why we came. In
8 fact, I came in order to stop that co-operation.
9 Q. You are also mentioned in this letter. It is said that you had
10 visited SV, in fact, the sports hall Pinki, with some delegation. Did
11 you go to this sports centre, Pinki, and did you meet some JNA officers
13 A. I suppose it's the sports centre Pinki which is not in Belgrade.
14 The only sports centre called Pinki is the one I know in Belgrade. I
15 don't know about this one.
16 Q. Did you perhaps go to the sports centre Pinki in Belgrade for the
17 purpose described in this letter?
18 A. No. Of course, I went there for sports events.
19 Q. It says in this letter that before coming here, you had tried to
20 get into the prison and you were not allowed to. Did you, indeed, go to
21 Sremska Mitrovica before and were refused access to the prison?
22 A. No. We waited for a permission of the competent authority, and
23 once we received that permission, we were given access to the prison
24 without any further problem.
25 Q. Did you perhaps come earlier without a permit and denied access?
1 A. Why would we have done that? We knew we had to have a permit.
2 Q. In that discussion, did you mention that they were letting
3 Ustashas go?
4 A. In this particular discussion, we did not talk about that.
5 Q. Before you went to the prison, did you also go to the Red Cross
6 in Sremska Mitrovica?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you know that there would be an exchange of about 900 persons
9 that day?
10 A. I didn't know about the extent and the pace of the exchanges
11 conducted by the Yugoslav People's Army.
12 Q. And in conversations at the time, did you or anyone else mention
13 Dr. Vesna Bosanac?
14 A. I don't know Dr. Vesna Bosanac. And I don't think that she was
15 on the list that our investigative organs were taking to the KPD
16 Mitrovica. They did have a list of some 20 to 30 persons. I don't know
17 in which context I would have mentioned her.
18 Q. Could you be a little bit more precise about those on the list,
19 the 30 -- the 20 or 30 persons.
20 A. Those were persons suspected of committing a number of serious
21 crimes, including elements of war crimes in Vukovar and its environs in
22 1990 and 1991. This is something that the victims and witnesses talked
23 about, and this was raw material that needed to be corroborated in the
25 Q. Did you mention Saljic in this conversation?
1 A. No I did not. I do know Judge Saljic. He himself had a lot of
2 remarks as a military investigating judge about the proceedings in
3 Mitrovica. He wasn't even allowed to do his job. But I did not say
4 anything about Judge Saljic. They perhaps just concluded that we were on
5 the same side.
6 Q. Could you please tell me when you found out that Judge Saljic had
7 similar problems. Was it at the time when you went to Mitrovica or some
8 other time?
9 A. It was at a different time. I met him in Vukovar in
10 Milos Vojnovic's office, and he told me that. We didn't really get on so
11 well, but that he also as a military investigating judge had to abandon
12 the project.
13 Q. When you were in Mitrovica at that time, did you or anyone else
14 from your group blame General Aleksandar Vasiljevic for anything?
15 A. I don't know General Aleksandar Vasiljevic. I don't know
16 anything about his work, and I don't blame him for anything.
17 Q. Was there an ultimatum by you or the government that nobody could
18 be released from the Sremska Mitrovica KPD without your permission, the
19 permission of the SBWS?
20 A. But that would mean that if they failed to respect that, that we
21 would attack Serbia, because this was located in Serbia. No, we
22 definitely did not issue an ultimatum to anyone.
23 Q. It says here that you toured three prison rooms at that time; is
24 that correct?
25 A. I mentioned the one that we visited. There was no other second
1 or third room, no.
2 Q. Did you ask for lists of prisoners?
3 A. I did not, but the investigating judge -- judges that were
4 working in the KPD did.
5 Q. Just to clarify, were those lists requested during this visit or
6 was this done at some other time?
7 A. No, no, I never asked for the list. But I do know that the
8 investigating judges, when they entered and started their work in the
9 KPD, did ask for the lists in order to be able to see who was on them,
10 who these people were.
11 Q. And did they get these lists?
12 A. Yes, but with not all the information. There was never a
13 definitive list as to how many people there were and which ones were no
14 longer on the list and why not.
15 Q. And did you say anything to the effect that the prisoners there
16 were too comfortable, that the accommodation was too good, and that it
17 shouldn't be like that?
18 A. The accommodation was very poor. There could be no worse
19 conditions, unless they kept outside without any roof over their heads.
20 No, of course I did not make any comments about that.
21 Q. And did anybody from your group say anything to that effect? I'm
22 thinking of you who were all there together on the 10th of December.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you object because the prisoners were smoking?
25 A. No, I would never object to anything like that.
1 Q. Just to clarify, when I say "you," I don't mean just you
2 personally. I mean the entire group.
3 A. No, nobody said anything about that. The people were unwashed,
4 they were neglected.
5 Q. And the prison authorities, on the 10th of December, did they --
6 said that you had to co-ordinate sending of a team with
7 General Vasiljevic?
8 A. No, no, he was not responsible for that.
9 Q. And did you and the group that was there on that visit mention
10 Colonel Papic?
11 A. No, we did not.
12 Q. And on the 10th of December, 1991, this meeting in
13 Sremska Mitrovica, was it attended by General Vasiljevic?
14 A. I never had the honour of ever personally meeting
15 General Vasiljevic.
16 Q. Did you know his deputy, Colonel -- or, actually, do you know who
17 his deputy was?
18 A. No. I did not meet either of them. Whoever that was, they would
19 have probably introduced themselves to me as such, but nobody ever
20 introduced themselves to me as General Vasiljevic's deputy.
21 Q. Did you ever hear of the name --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the name.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And was he there?
1 A. No, he was not.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic --
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Oh, sorry.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: The interpreters did not catch the name of the
5 person you mentioned in your question.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I asked about the name Tumanov. I am repeating it.
8 A. Yes, I have heard of that last name. I know that there was a
9 general, maybe he was a colonel, but I believe that he was a general. I
10 never met him, no.
11 Q. Did you ask that the prisoners be handed over to you? Did you
12 ask that the prisoners from Sremska Mitrovica be handed over to you, the
13 government of the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?
14 A. I never at any place asked for the prisoners of war to be handed
15 over to me because I was not responsible for taking care of prisoners of
16 war. Exclusively, in accordance with the law, that was something that
17 was the responsibility of the Yugoslav People's Army. I knew what my
18 duties and responsibilities were, and I also knew what their duties and
19 rights and responsibilities were.
20 Q. I'm just going to repeat. Yes, I understand that you personally
21 didn't ask for that. Did anybody from the group ask for that, Hadzic,
22 Bogunovic, or anyone else who was with you there at that time?
23 A. Had they asked for that, I would have had the right and I would
24 have used that right to warn them that these were the rights that were
25 not ours, that we could not exercise these rights.
1 Q. On that occasion, were there any threats with weapons? Did any
2 one of you threaten to use weapons if these demands of yours were not
4 A. No, nobody made any threats with weapons.
5 Q. And did you accuse General Vasiljevic of releasing prisoners
6 without consulting you, meaning you personally and the government of
8 A. I don't know. I didn't know why the prisoners were being
9 released. I didn't know whose fault that was, if it was anybody's fault.
10 And then I didn't know that General Vasiljevic was behind that either.
11 Q. And did any of you invite General Vasiljevic to lunch?
12 A. Had he been there, perhaps we would have invited him. I believe
13 that I would not have gone to that lunch, but as he wasn't there, we
14 couldn't have invited him in the first place.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last
16 page of this document.
17 Q. The document is signed by Colonel Jugoslav Maksimovic. Do you
18 know that name?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And are you able to tell us whether, after this meeting on the
21 10th of December, if you went to lunch to any of these officers [as
23 A. No, I did not go to lunch to -- with any of these officers.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see the time, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 The time for the second break; 30 minutes as well. We will be
2 back at 12.45.
3 Court adjourned.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 May we see, please, tab 583. It is document 3028 from the
11 Prosecution Rule 65 ter list.
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Susa, do you know the person who is at the
13 right side of the photograph, this adult shown?
14 A. This is a member of the Yugoslav People's Army, from what I can
15 see, and this is Colonel Bogdan Vujic. Yes, it is him, definitely.
16 Q. And did you notice him perhaps at the meeting in Velepromet?
17 A. No, he was not at the meeting in Velepromet.
18 Q. Did you see him perhaps in the Velepromet yard?
19 A. I met Mr. Bogdan Vujic, without his cap, in the Sremska Mitrovica
20 KP Dom.
21 Q. You mentioned that Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic introduced himself
22 as the commander of the city at the meeting in Velepromet, and he told
23 you about the imposition of the military rule. Are you able to tell us
24 what the situation was, if you know, regarding the authority of the army
25 in areas where combat had finished in areas captured by the JNA?
1 A. Regardless of the fact whether the combat was over or not, the
2 decision of the Presidency of the SFRY applied about the conduct of the
3 army during imminent danger of war. In all those territories, the army
4 had the absolute right to act on military and civilian matters. This was
5 not in dispute. All we were required to do was to offer them
6 co-operation in -- in the civilian sphere.
7 Q. Are you able to tell us until when the military rule was in force
8 in SBWS?
9 A. If I'm not mistaken, this was sometime until May or June 1992.
10 Or, more specifically, after the new Yugoslavia was formed and after the
11 adoption of the constitution in Zabljak, when Serbia and Montenegro
12 decided to create the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
13 Q. Do you know whether the military authorities were trying to
14 establish some co-operation with civilian authorities, or did they try to
15 establish civilian authorities, or did they have any arrangements with
16 the government of SBWS?
17 A. They paid lip service to this, but they didn't actually do
18 anything. They only addressed us when the problems grew to such an
19 extent that they couldn't control them anymore. In every military
20 structure, there was a contact person, a point man, for dealing with
21 civilian issues, but even that officer didn't find it necessary to
22 consult us in many things.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender the document from
24 the screen into evidence.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3028 receives number D220, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, D19. It is tab 634.
4 Q. [Interpretation] This is an order. It's not legible. Rather,
5 the date is not legible. However, we believe that it was sent on the
6 20th of November. I wanted to ask you about a few things in this
7 document, inviting your comments.
8 You will see that under bullet point 2, the longest part says
9 that work -- that the command has to work to establish civilian
10 authorities in municipalities. According to the decision of the Assembly
11 of the Serbian District of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western Srem,
12 the municipalities are Beli Manastir, Vukovar, Dalj, Vinkovci, with its
13 seat in Mirkovci and Osijek with its seat in Tenja.
14 On the 20th of November, was there a decision, as it says here,
15 issued by the Assembly of the Serbian District of Baranja, Eastern
16 Slavonia, and Western Srem determining and defining the municipalities as
17 listed here?
18 A. The Great National Assembly made that decision subsequently, not
19 in the form of decision because these issues are not resolved by issuing
20 any decisions. This should be the Law on Territorial Organisation. I
21 worked on that. It's not a decision, and in any case, that was passed
22 after the 20th of November, 1991.
23 Q. Although you have already referred to this law, let me ask you
24 once again. Before the passing of that law, was there a decision of that
25 kind? Did this decision pre-exist the law?
1 A. No. There's no decision that could be made on those issues.
2 Q. Let's look at paragraph 4 in this decision. It says here:
3 "The established organs of authority are defined as the organs of
4 authority that were established after the place was liberated under the
5 leadership of organs of authority of the SO of Baranja, Eastern
6 Slavonija, and Western Srem."
7 Is it true that this sentence was applied as of the
8 20th November onwards?
9 A. It was only after the Law on Territorial Organisation came into
10 effect. It defined the municipalities and its seats very precisely. We
11 were the ones who appointed presence of Executive Councils, and then in
12 their turn, they proposed their associates in consultations with the
14 When it comes to the Town Command and whether they're going to
15 meddle with this, I believe that this decision is very self-explanatory.
16 They very often meddled in political issues.
17 Q. When it comes to the local bodies of authority besides appointing
18 presence of Executive Councils, did the local bodies of authority become
19 appointed by the government or somebody else? Who appointed them?
20 A. Well, they were nominated by the government. Or, rather, in the
21 hierarchy, there's the government, the municipalities, the local
22 communes, and it would be the councils of the municipalities that
23 appointed bodies at the lowest levels.
24 Q. That would be following the rules and regulations, but I'm not
25 asking you about rules and regulations. I was probably not very precise
1 in my question. What I wanted to ask you was whether you know how things
2 were done in practice. Who was it who appointed those people in local
3 communes and in the local bodies of authority? I'm talking about the
4 practical part, not what it said in the decision about the Executive
6 A. My answer can't be simple because things were not approached
7 everywhere in the same way.
8 Let's start with Ilok. There was a drastic situation there.
9 Military administration was introduced and the Town Command decided who
10 directors would be, who members of the local communes would be. It also
11 defined the composition of the police bodies, everything. Ilok comprises
12 several villages such as Opatovac, Mohovo, and Sarengrad, and things were
13 done in the same way on -- in these villages. In some other places like,
14 for example, Mirkovci, where the local authorities [Realtime transcript
15 read in error "military"] had been more powerful from before, they
16 resisted those change-overs that the army sometimes insisted on and the
17 situation was pretty much status quo.
18 Q. At the bottom of this decision, it says that the seat of the
19 government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is in Dalj. Was the
20 seat of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem in Dalj on
21 28 November 1991?
22 A. The seat was never in Dalj. It was always in Erdut.
23 Q. It says here at the very bottom in the last sentence of this
24 decision that Srbobran Bibic is the government commissioner for Vukovar.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Olmsted.
1 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 In answer before the last one, it's recorded in the transcript:
3 In some other places like, for example, Mirkovci where the military had
4 been more powerful from before, they resisted ..."
5 I believe the witness said "where the local authorities" or the
6 civilian authorities. I don't think he said that the military had been
7 more powerful than before they resisted changes.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter confirms.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So that's on the record now. Thank you,
11 Mr. Olmsted.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Let me just --
13 Q. My question was about Srbobran Bibic whose mentioned in the last
14 sentence. Was Srbobran Bibic the government commissioner for Vukovar?
15 Did the government appoint Srbobran Bibic as its commissioner for Vukovar
16 at that time?
17 A. Srbobran Bibic, also known as Rajko Bibic, ten or 15 days after
18 the date indicated in here - and this confuses me somewhat - was
19 appointed as the president of the Executive Council of Vukovar
20 municipality by the government, not as its commissioner, as far as I
21 know, and I'm almost sure that I am correct.
22 Q. Mr. Susa, could you please tell us something about the
23 Vance Plan. What was the position of the government and the population
24 in general in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem towards this proposal?
25 A. The proposal of the Vance Plan did not meet the support of the
1 people in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem because of the way it
2 envisaged the deployment of peacekeeping forces. People demanded from us
3 to try and to affirm the idea that, according to the Vance Plan, somewhat
4 altered, the peacekeeping forces of the United Nations should be deployed
5 between the two warring parties. That proposal did not take off the
7 Q. Did you participate in some debates and discussions surrounding
8 the adoption of the Vance Plan?
9 A. Yes, I did. I participated in the work of a large gathering
10 which was chaired by the people from the Presidency of the SFRY. I was
11 there on day one. I believe that its work extended to the next day, when
12 I was not present. However, I took the floor on the first day and my
13 contribution was to oppose the deployment of UN peacekeepers in the depth
14 of our territory. Unfortunately, I was right. My discussion was very --
15 in that sense, very good.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't believe that the witness said the last
17 sentence in his answer.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please ask the witness to repeat the last
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Let me tell you, it was recorded that you said, as your last
22 sentence --
23 A. My last sentence was: Unfortunately, I was right.
24 Q. However, you were recorded as saying:
25 [In English] "My discussion was very -- in that sense, very
2 [No interpretation]
3 A. My discussion at the session?
4 Q. In your answer did you say -- listen carefully, I'm going to
5 repeat in English. I'm going to read this back to you. You said,
6 allegedly: [In English] "My discussion was very -- in that sense, very
8 [Interpretation] Did you indeed say that?
9 A. I did say that. My discussion at the Presidency session was very
10 correct in view of the fact of what happened later.
11 Q. So this was a misunderstanding.
12 Why did you want the peacekeepers to be deployed on the
13 separation line? Why did everybody want that?
14 A. Because that was the only and safe guarantee that there would be
15 no more conflicts between the warring parties. They would act as a
16 buffer zone, and the United Nations troops would be able to exert
17 authority on the separation line and act as a buffer zone.
18 Q. Since that was your position, what was the position of Yugoslav
20 A. Their position was different from mine. They said that there
21 could be no longer any delays in establishing peace in the war-affected
22 areas. Nearly all representatives of the Presidency of the Socialist
23 Federative Republic of Yugoslavia spoke words to that effect. And as the
24 debate went on and as our people heard their reasons, they moved to the
25 side of the Presidency members and the idea that the Vance Plan should be
1 adopted and applied at all cost.
2 Q. Were you told what could happen if the Croatian forces violated
3 the cease-fire and entered the protected area?
4 A. There were serious guarantees from the people from the Presidency
5 that we -- that any sort -- any kind of assistance would be forthcoming
6 and that we would be guaranteed protection, if any such thing would
8 Q. On that occasion, did you also discuss the regulations that would
9 be implemented in the area where UN peacekeepers would be deployed?
10 A. I believe that my question at that Presidency session was to that
11 effect. We were told that there would be a transition period and that
12 the regulations in effect at that time would continue to be in effect
13 during that transition period.
14 Q. You have just mentioned Ilok in one of your answers. I would
15 like to ask you whether the government had any contacts with Ilok after
16 October 1991, when a large number of Croats moved out from that town and
17 from that general area.
18 A. For several months after the departure of a large number of
19 Croats, and they were mostly people who were able-bodied and could be
20 considered military conscripts, we didn't have any contacts with the
21 military administration in Ilok. That contact was established after the
22 arrival of a large number of displaced persons from Western Slavonia to a
23 place across the Danube from Ilok, and that is Backa Palanka.
24 Q. Did you receive any reports or information, either from military
25 authorities or any other official information, as to what was going on in
1 Ilok during the relevant period of time, i.e., from the moment the
2 Croatian population moved out until some months later?
3 A. We had inofficial [as interpreted] information which proved to be
4 very correct at the end of the day. The military is in charge of
5 every -- everything in that area. They were involved in military issues
6 as well as in all segments of civilian life.
7 Q. Did you officially request from the military authorities in Ilok
8 to provide you with some information about the situation over there?
9 A. Yes. The government put me and Mr. Vojnovic in charge, as well
10 as Mr. Boro Bogunovic, of establishing contact with the military
11 authorities in Ilok. I went to talk to the town commander,
12 Colonel Belic. I explained to him why I was there, and I told him that
13 we wanted to establish full co-operation because we had common problems.
14 One of them was a large number of refugees who wanted to move into the
15 territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. Mr. Belic did not show
16 any understanding for the reasons mentioned by myself, and I returned to
17 Erdut. I told Mr. Goran Hadzic about the reception I had met and then he
18 wrote an official letter to Mr. Belic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up
20 D30, tab 635.
21 Q. Could you please look at this letter and tell us if that is the
22 letter you mentioned a moment ago.
23 A. This is just a part of this letter. There is a continuation.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We can move to the next page. I
25 believe there's one more page in English. I think it ends on page 4.
1 [In English] Yes.
2 Q. [Interpretation] It is stated in this letter that the government
3 does not know under what circumstances the military rule was imposed.
4 What did they mean by that?
5 A. The circumstances under which this military rule is operating in
6 Ilok for so long are unclear. The town commander was unable to prove
7 with a single document his position in town. It was unclear who
8 appointed him to that position in the first place. We didn't even know
9 if he was a counterpart from the other side whom we should address in
10 dealing with these problems, and my first conversation with him was, in
11 fact, an attempt to get some kind of information, to inquire. But in
12 this conversation, he was very arrogant and refused any further contact
13 and rejected the possibility that we would be involved in establishing
14 civilian authorities and restoring normal conditions in SBWS.
15 Q. In this letter, you asked, among other things, to be able to have
16 an insight into the accounts of businesses and enterprises.
17 Tell me, why did you make this request and was it met?
18 A. Ilok remained completely intact as a town. There was absolutely
19 no damage or war devastation. There were several economic entities in
20 Ilok that had a very successful business. They never ceased operating.
21 For instance, it was the brick-works Razvitak, the winery Ilok,
22 Agrokomerc, a textile industry called Iteks, and we wanted to inventory
23 their assets. It was the territory of SBWS, and it was the property of
24 the people who lived there. But regrettably we had information that
25 turned out to be correct, to the effect that large amounts of property
1 were being taken to Serbia unlawfully.
2 Q. Were you given access to their assets and accounts?
3 A. At this stage, no. Only much later.
4 Q. This letter also mentions that JNA was the exclusive overseer of
5 resettlement in Ilok; is that correct? Did the government have any part
6 in it?
7 A. As soon as part of the Croatian population left Ilok, the JNA
8 came in; specifically the units of the Territorial Defence of Vojvodina.
9 They took possession of several facilities and started to dispose of the
10 remaining buildings under criteria that were never clearly established,
11 but mostly they were bringing just their own friends and family,
12 accommodating them in the town, giving them jobs. They simply had
13 absolute control over the area and did as they pleased. They made their
14 own decisions, appointing general managers. They brought people from
15 Serbia, they made arrangements with them on the further development of
16 the town and further activities. And throughout that time in Ilok and
17 the surrounding places, Opatovac, Mohovo, Sarengrad, and Sotin, they just
18 moved people in.
19 Q. The letter mentions that --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted.
21 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours. I was going to rise earlier. I
22 just want to check the document.
23 Mr. Zivanovic represented that in this letter the military says
24 that they were the exclusive overseer of resettlement in Ilok. I don't
25 see that in the letter. I was wondering if he could just point it to me.
1 Perhaps I'm missing it.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think it is in -- at previous page of English.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, it's on page 2.
4 Paragraph 4.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will read out from the
6 translation on the screen. This text is underlined:
7 [In English] "The government has been told that the settling of
8 Ilok went on rather well and that your command was competent in all
9 matters. Naturally we are not bothered by this," et cetera.
10 MR. OLMSTED: Well, the Prosecution would ask, Your Honours, that
11 in the future, that Defence counsel use the language in the letter. I
12 think that is open to interpretation what that sentence which was just
13 read means and it's important to put the language to the witness so -- so
14 as not to mislead or lead the witness in a certain direction.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: And, Mr. Zivanovic, I still didn't find it on --
16 on the page on the screen. Could you help -- assist me?
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is underlined. Paragraph, in English, at the
18 screen. It is -- it begins with:
19 "The government has been told that the settling of Ilok went on
20 rather well ..."
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, I see -- see it now.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
24 Q. [Interpretation] It was also said here that you were not informed
25 of the criteria for resettlement. When I say "you," I mean the
1 government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is correct. We were not informed of the criteria, and
3 the whole truth is that these criteria did not even exist. We were just
4 trying to be polite.
5 Q. In that period, was the government asked to take any part in this
6 process of resettlement? At any stage, did the government -- was the
7 government asked by the JNA?
8 A. No. On the contrary, everything was done to stop the government
9 from any participation in the resettlement process.
10 Q. It is also said in this letter that you do not want to pre-empt
11 any military or political solutions. What was this a reference to?
12 A. As you understand, in this situation which involved a large
13 inflow of refugees into Backa Palanka, the Croatian Operation Flash had
14 already happened, and a large number of refugees were heading for
15 Vojvodina in Serbia and other areas, including Slavonia, Baranja, and
16 Western Srem. While receiving these people, we were not thinking that
17 these people would not have the possibility of returning to their homes
18 in Baranja, Slavonia and other places in the future.
19 Q. You used the term "Operation Flash." Are you sure that operation
20 happened at that time?
21 A. Those people who came from Western Slavonia, they came as a
22 result of military pressure by Croatian authorities.
23 Q. What kind of status were they supposed to receive when they
24 arrived in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem or, specifically, Ilok?
25 What was the government's idea about their stay there?
1 A. Those were temporarily resettled places, accommodated in housing
2 that they had the right to occupy only temporarily. That status is very
3 important, and it was a reflection of our desire to help those people in
4 those times, in that situation, in the only way we could.
5 Q. Can you tell us, was the government looking for some place to
6 accommodate its own members? Did it ask for such accommodation from
7 military authorities?
8 A. Yes, we did. And I'm coming back to the old story and the
9 eviction of our property from the winery. This was the first opportunity
10 for two or three ministries to get some offices, and we thought it would
11 be a good idea if they were in Ilok. From back then until this point, we
12 still operated without any offices.
13 Q. I will show you one letter that was sent out to the Town Command
14 of Ilok on the same day as this letter. It's a regular report that the
15 command of Ilok sent on the same day to its superior command.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see P1708. Tab 657.
17 Q. May I draw your attention to the tenth paragraph.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, it's the next page.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. It reads:
22 "Occupation of empty houses continues in the territory of the
23 command of the town of Ilok's area of responsibility. Occupation is
24 taking place without the knowledge or approval of the command of the town
25 of Ilok. The Presidency of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem has
1 not thus far given an announcement regarding the way and the conditions
2 of settlement, which places this command into a very complex situation.
3 At the same time, ethnic Croatian inhabitants are under pressure to leave
4 this territory."
5 Do you know whether there was any resettlement in that area that
6 was not approved by the Town Command of Ilok?
7 A. This is a typical conflation frequently used at that time by the
8 army. How was it possible that the area of responsibility of these units
9 of Ilok somebody could enter an area, temporarily resettle there without
10 them knowing? It's simply incredible. It runs counter to all their
11 abilities and competences on the ground. It is was not us who set the
12 criteria for resettlement. It was them. They did only things that
13 suited them. Any involvement on our part would only be a bother for
14 them. I perfectly understand their reasoning. I don't understand --
15 approve it but I understand it.
16 Q. Do you know what kind of an announcement they are referring to in
17 paragraph 10? What kind of announcement was expected of you?
18 A. I believe the basis for this report was the letter we just looked
19 at a moment ago. What the commander is doing here is actually
20 self-defence. He's putting up his guard against any problem that we
21 might create in the future for them and any issues that we were intending
22 to raise, and it was clear that we were going to blame the Town Command
23 of Ilok.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P371. Tab 658.
25 No, I think I made a mistake. We've seen this before. Yes, it's
1 tab 574, and the exhibit is P378.
2 Q. This report of 9 December, which means before your letter and
3 before the other letter we saw a moment ago, was sent by the Town Command
4 of Ilok to their superior command. They report about the situation in
5 the area and the organisation of civilian life. They say that in Ilok
6 and the villages enumerated here, including Lovas, no civilian
7 authorities have been established and there is only one person dealing
8 with all business in local offices.
9 To the best of your knowledge, is this correct?
10 A. Yes, it's completely correct. It's just that the reasons for
11 this are explained differently by us and the army. We think this was
12 happening because we were not allowed to get into that area, whereas they
13 pretend that we don't exist and, in fact, they were not giving us any
15 Q. In item 2, it says that in the territory of the Town Command,
16 TO Staffs have not been established and do not exist.
17 To the best of your knowledge, is that true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In item 3, it says that a police station has been established in
20 Ilok and one of its squads has been detached and posted to the village
21 Lovas and that it was formed by the MUP of Serbia and is now under the
22 authority of the SAO Baranja, Slavonia, Western Srem. In carrying out
23 its tasks, the police station is subordinated to the command of the town
24 of Ilok.
25 Can you please tell us whether what is stated here is correct?
1 A. Precisely as it is written it is correct and it proves the
2 imbalance of all of their writing. It is not correct that it was under
3 our jurisdiction, the police station, and then again they note that it's
4 subordinated to the Town Command. So how is it possible that we
5 established it but we are subordinated to them? We did not establish it.
6 Of course not. They did.
7 Q. Well, just one second because there are a number of assertions
8 here. Let's look at the text. It says here that the police station was
9 formed by the Serbian MUP.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. But that it is under the authority of Slavonia, Baranja, and
12 Western Srem. What I'm interested in is whether it's correct that it was
13 formed under the Serbian MUP but it was under your authority?
14 A. Yes, it was formed by the Serbian MUP. It's not correct that
15 it's under the authority of the SBWS. And in carrying out its tasks, the
16 police station is subordinated to the command of the town of Ilok, that
17 is correct.
18 Q. Can you please tell us, since you said that what is said --
19 stated here is not correct, was the SBWS government consulted at all
20 regarding the police that is referred to in this report?
21 A. The SBWS government was not consulted in any single activity or
22 specific action by the military authorities in Ilok.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D45,
24 please. This is tab 654.
25 Q. This is a request by the Town Command of Ilok, seeking an
1 explanation about a request of the refugees to settle in Ilok and
2 settlements within the area of responsibility of the town of Ilok.
3 It is stated here that there was a large number of abandoned
4 houses and apartments.
5 A. Would you like me to comment what I'm looking at?
6 Q. Just one moment. And that the Town Command is receiving requests
7 from refugees to settle the abandoned -- to settle in the abandoned
8 houses. Instructions are being sought.
9 Could you please tell us if this accurately reflects the
10 situation at the time.
11 A. When you put all the information of theirs next to each other and
12 read it, then you can see how they are actually conveying half-truths,
13 but then, after all, you can come to a conclusion -- and this is how they
14 know, after all, that they know who was moving into the abandoned
15 properties. They were receiving a large number of requests. Now that
16 the number of requests is too large and they cannot control it anymore,
17 so now they're asking for help. Before, when they were determining the
18 dynamics, they were able to work on their own and deal with it without
19 any problems.
20 Q. And these instructions are dated the 28th of November, 1991.
21 What I'm interested in is whether, in that period, did you, as the
22 government, receive any requests for people to settle in Ilok?
23 A. At the time, no. Then, we did not receive any single request.
24 Q. And at the time, did they address you for some kind of
25 consultations or agreements or anything regarding this problem?
1 A. They never addressed us unless they were in a difficult situation
2 or we were very persistent and, thus, forced them to talk to us.
3 Q. Could you please tell us if you were informed or if you had
4 information whether they effectively controlled the territories they were
5 in possession of?
6 A. Yes, of course. There were many soldiers there, a lot of
7 equipment. They had the legal authority to act, but not act badly but
8 act correctly and properly.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at Exhibit 6038,
10 tab 658 from the Prosecution's 65 ter list.
11 Q. This is a regular daily report of the 30th of November, 1991,
12 again from the Ilok Town Command. Could you please look at paragraph 2,
13 where the places that are affected in this territory are referred to.
14 In item 6, the tasks and assignments are referred to from the
15 Ilok Town Commander with the focus on the control of movements, the
16 immediate security of the said places, and the carrying out of tasks
17 relating to the command post.
18 According to what you know, was this correct?
19 A. Yes, this was correct. Otherwise, the chief, the
20 lieutenant-colonel, would be subject to disciplinary measures.
21 Q. Could you please tell me, after you came to Ilok on the
22 23rd of December and later, was the situation the same. In other words,
23 were the Ilok Town Command units still controlling the movement in their
24 area and directly providing security for the places that are mentioned
1 A. Yes, that is what they were doing. They were doing their part of
2 the job.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender this document into evidence,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6038 receives number D221, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. In your testimony, you mentioned, among other things, that the
10 Ilok Town Command appointed directors of certain companies.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please 1D2196. It is tab 466.
12 Q. [Interpretation] This is one of the decisions that we found. Are
13 you able to tell us if you knew that this company, Agrokomerc, had the
14 following director appointed by the Ilok Town Command?
15 A. Yes, that's a good friend of mine. He was a good friend then and
16 is still my good friend. In this way, he was appointed a director. It
17 wasn't only him. All the directors of economic companies, kindergartens,
18 the cultural institutions, all of those posts were filled by the
19 commander of the town of Ilok.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender this document, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2196 receives number D222,
23 Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, 1D2493. It is tab 490.
1 Q. [Interpretation] This is another decision on a director's
2 appointment. This time it's the Razvitak company. Did you know that
3 this person was appointed?
4 A. Yes, I know Milovan Buha very well, and I met him in Ilok when he
5 was already the director of this company.
6 Q. I see that the document bears the date 30th of January, 1992.
7 Are you able to tell us approximately how long did the Ilok Town Command
8 decide on the appointment of directors of commercial enterprises?
9 A. I'm afraid that this is linked to certain laws, to the way things
10 functioned, and also it has to do with Colonel --
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because he had a hand in
13 regulating relationships in this way in the town of Ilok. But already,
14 by the spring of that year, by March, all of this gained a slightly
15 different meaning.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, P1683. It is tab 645.
17 Sorry, I would tender this document from the screen.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think, Mr. Zivanovic, that this document is
19 already in evidence as 14 -- D141, if I'm not wrong. Admitted on the
20 15th of July, 14.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, it is my error in that case.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see, please, P1683. It is tab 645.
24 Q. [Interpretation] This is another regular daily report from
25 November 1991. It refers to various activities in the Ilok Town Command
1 area of responsibility. I would like to ask you to look at paragraph 7.
2 It's on the second page of the original. And, among other things, this
3 paragraph talks about intensive normative work that is being done on
4 establishing local commands and ensuring their functioning.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the next page in
6 the English translation, please, where it says that in the course of
7 paramilitary units, Dusan Silni Detachment were chased out and parts of
8 the local TO were placed under a single command of TO commands present in
9 the area.
10 Q. What I would like to know is this: Did the Ilok Town Command
11 have enough forces, effect force, in your estimation, to regulate the
12 conduct, the movement, and generally the presence of paramilitary
13 formations in its territory?
14 A. Yes, of course it did. There was a large number of well-armed
15 soldiers that were under their command. They were at -- they had quite a
16 significant amount of equipment at their disposal.
17 Q. I will show you one more exhibit for today.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: This is P1709, tab 659.
19 Q. This is a letter that you wrote to the Ilok Town Command, if you
20 recall. And in the letter, you talk about the temporary moving in in the
21 territory of Ilok and a meeting is being scheduled.
22 Do you remember this letter?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. I would like to ask you now to look at the attachments to this
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the following
2 pages of the document.
3 Q. There is a list here of the inhabitants, and you can also see in
4 the following pages that there are also maps attached besides the
5 handwritten lists. I think that you looked at these documents.
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. Could you please tell me, are -- were all the other pages
8 attached to your letter? In other words, were you the one who attached
9 these documents to your letter or not?
10 A. No, I did not attach the documents. These documents were drafted
11 by the army. My letter does not contain the rest of these documents.
12 Q. In other words, did you attach any other documents, any lists
13 with your letter?
14 A. No. Otherwise, I would have stated so and I would have listed
15 the attachments to the letter. And I think you can also see that there
16 are military stamps on these documents.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic --
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- we should call it a day.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I see the time. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 Mr. Susa, we expect you to be back tomorrow at 9.00. You remain
23 a witness and under oath, and I explained yesterday to you what that
24 means in terms of discussing your testimony with other people or having
25 contact with the parties. Do you remember that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. And I am sticking
2 to that, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
4 Court adjourned.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of
8 October, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.