Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11969

 1                           Wednesday, 8 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Matthew Olmsted and

14     Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             And for the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

18     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Zivanovic, yesterday at the start of the hearing, you

21     mentioned two incidents which, in your view, obstructed the proceedings

22     with a witness detained in the UNDU.  As a general observation, the

23     Trial Chamber would advise the Defence to raise such issues directly with

24     the Registry.  By explaining what is done at the UNDU and why it's done,

25     the Registry might have convinced you either that there was no room or

Page 11970

 1     that there was no reason for such an intervention.

 2             With regard to the first incident you mentioned, the one that

 3     happened last Friday, the Defence obviously assumed that after having

 4     provided documents to the detained witness in accordance with the UNDU

 5     regulations, the detained witness could bring these documents by himself

 6     to a proofing session.  However, the regulations you referred to provide

 7     for the following under bullet point 3:

 8             "The detained witness is not permitted to enter the witness

 9     proofing session with any documents, since it is a non-privileged

10     meeting."

11             Our 3 September 2014 decision is, by no means, in conflict with

12     that regulation.

13             As to the second incident, a simple query to the Registry would

14     have learned that the UN DU regulations, in fact, do not prohibit the

15     counsel of a detained witness to share documents with his client during

16     the proofing session and that the UNDU management has taken measures to

17     avoid such an occurrence in the future.

18             The witness can be brought in, please.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Susa.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Good morning.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have to remind you that you are still under

23     oath.

24             Mr. Zivanovic, please proceed.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.


Page 11971

 1                           WITNESS:  VOJIN SUSA [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Susa.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Yesterday I tried to show you a document and then gave up.  Now

 7     I'm going to go back to it.  This is the constitutional law of the

 8     Serbian region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  It was prepared

 9     by your ministry.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, L1.  It is tab 589.  B/C/S

11     page 2, line 5.  English -- no, no, B/C/S -- sorry.  B/C/S page 2 and

12     English page 5.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please tell us whether this is the law

14     that we started talking about yesterday?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   I'm interested in Article 39 on page 5 of the original and

17     page 13 in the English version.

18             Could you please tell us why the constitutional law prescribes

19     that it is valid temporarily until the Yugoslav crisis is solved and

20     until a final constitutional status of the Serb District within

21     Yugoslavia is established?

22        A.   I believe that this is rather self-explanatory, that our goal is

23     clear.  At the moment when we passed the constitutional law, we didn't

24     know what the position of the Serb District was.  Our main ambition was

25     to remain part of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia or some

Page 11972

 1     other Yugoslavia that would possibly be created after the Socialist

 2     Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.  Since it was premature at the moment

 3     when the constitutional law was passed to talk about the possible

 4     resolution of the crisis, we hedged ourselves, and that's why we said

 5     that the document would have a temporary validity.

 6        Q.   Let's now move on to other rules and regulations.  Could you

 7     please tell us whether the Ministry of Justice drafted regulations within

 8     the sphere of justice?

 9        A.   Yes, of course.

10        Q.   Did the Ministry of Justice also draft the Law on Courts?

11        A.   Yes, a complete set of the laws relative to courts, prosecutor's

12     offices, misdemeanour courts.  We drafted all that within the ministry.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up L22 under

14     tab 603.

15        Q.   What you see on the screen, is that the Law on Courts that was

16     drafted by your ministry?

17        A.   Yes, that's the law in question.

18        Q.   Could you please tell us just briefly which courts were

19     established by that law.

20        A.   We decide to have a three-tier competency of courts.  First there

21     was a basic court, then a superior court, and a district court which is

22     also an appeals court.  And there was a corresponding number of

23     prosecutor's offices.  As for why economic courts, we didn't have enough

24     staff to set up an independent court of that nature which is why higher

25     courts had departments for white-collar crime.  When we passed this

Page 11973

 1     Law on Courts, we set up two basic courts, if you're interested.

 2        Q.   Just briefly.

 3        A.   The basic court in Vukovar with a temporary seat in Dalj and the

 4     basic court in Beli Manastir.  There was just one superior court in

 5     Beli Manastir and there was a regional court in Vukovar with a temporary

 6     seat in Dalj.

 7        Q.   Could you please tell us something about the competencies of

 8     courts when it comes to criminal matter.

 9        A.   Yes, this was fully prescribed by the law when it came to crimes

10     for which the sentence was up to five years' imprisonment.  Basic courts

11     were competent for those.  Appeals court for those are higher courts and

12     higher courts were also in charge of the gravest crimes for which the

13     sentence was more than five years' imprisonment.  And then the

14     second-instance court in those cases was a regional court which was the

15     appeals court for the cases that were heard by the superior courts.

16        Q.   You said that appeals on judgements of higher courts were heard

17     by?

18        A.   The regional court as the second-instance court.

19        Q.   In the preamble of this text we see that that law was passed on

20     the 9th of October, 1991.  Do you remember whether judges were elected at

21     that time as well as public prosecutors that would be on those courts?

22        A.   Only some of the staff were elected because we didn't have enough

23     personnel to fill up all the positions.

24        Q.   Could you please tell us what conditions had to be met by the

25     judges and public prosecutors who were elected into those positions?

Page 11974

 1        A.   The same conditions as before the war; i.e., they had to have a

 2     degree in law and they had to have passed a state bar exam.  There were

 3     pressures at first to involve laypersons, citizens of repute, as members

 4     of those courts and prosecutor's offices were rejected by myself.

 5        Q.   When it came to the election of assessor judges, were those

 6     envisaged?

 7        A.   Yes, they were envisaged.  And I think that at first we elected

 8     assessor judges for the basic court, and then some ten or 15 days later,

 9     we also elected assessor judges for the higher court.

10        Q.   Do you know that the municipal Assembly of Beli Manastir passed

11     certain regulations even before the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and

12     Western Srem was established and those regulations concerned property,

13     labour relations and similar things?

14        A.   Yes, I know that.  The municipality of Beli Manastir was specific

15     because they were not affected by war activities.  They continued

16     functioning even after the elections in Croatia.  They passed their

17     internal regulations, their bylaws.  I have to tell you that I found a

18     lot of unlawful parts in them.  Later, they all had to be amended and

19     adapted to the laws that we passed subsequently.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up L58 under

21     tab 627.

22        Q.   We can see a decision to rescind the validity of the legal

23     regulations of the Republic of Croatia.  This was passed on the

24     1st of September.

25             Do you know whether before this decision was passed, whether the

Page 11975

 1     authorities in Beli Manastir had consulted you about this decision?

 2        A.   No, they never consulted me.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P2157, at

 4     tab 639.

 5        Q.   On the screen, you can see a decision on the termination of

 6     employment and prohibition to return and stay in Baranja of all persons

 7     who were in enemy forces and people who helped them and their immediate

 8     family members.  You can see at the end of the text that it was drafted

 9     and passed on the 1st September 1991.  In the English translation, it is

10     on page 2.

11             This decision, was it passed after some consultation with the

12     government or your ministry or you personally?

13        A.   If I had been consulted, I would have never allowed the passing

14     of this decision.  It's a decision that I said already contains unlawful

15     elements; in some ways, even discriminatory.  I do not agree with such

16     language, and I don't believe there should be prevention and sanction

17     included against anyone.

18             I mean, this is the kind of behaviour that we were already

19     subjected to, and we had no right to subject others to such conduct.

20        Q.   Can you tell us what kind of influence did such decisions have.

21     How did they relate to the regulations adopted by the Great National

22     Assembly of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and later the government,

23     and how did they relate to the Yugoslav regulations whose application was

24     also envisaged?

25        A.   In our regulations, there were no such arrangements.  After the

Page 11976

 1     passing of our own legislation, these decisions should have been

 2     harmonised partially or fully repealed.

 3        Q.   Did you receive any information or reports that these decisions

 4     continued to be applied even after the government was established?

 5        A.   No, I never had such reports.

 6        Q.   Did the Ministry of Justice have any jurisdiction over prisons in

 7     SBWS?

 8        A.   We had the most direct jurisdiction over the prisons we had

 9     established, because we were directly responsible for them.  Those were

10     two prisons:  The one in Dalj and the one in Beli Manastir which was part

11     of the investigation centre attached to the higher court of

12     Beli Manastir, district court of Beli Manastir.

13        Q.   Who would be placed in such a prison?

14        A.   Only persons who were placed there by decision of the

15     investigation centre or by a ruling of the judge of the basic or district

16     court.

17        Q.   Do you know that in addition to those two prisons which were

18     within the purview of the Ministry of Justice, there were some other

19     prisons in Dalj or generally in SBWS?

20        A.   I was not aware of any such prisons.  The only thing I know is

21     that, attached to every police station or every Secretariat for Internal

22     Affairs, there was a remand prison for persons suspected of having

23     committed crimes recently or much earlier.  Such remand prisons existed.

24     They were not under our purview.  A person could be held in such a remand

25     prison up to three days, according to the law.

Page 11977

 1        Q.   Can you tell us, where was this prison controlled by the

 2     Ministry of Justice in Dalj?

 3        A.   I was in that prison for the first and last time when it was

 4     opened.  When you enter Dalj, the High Street of Dalj and then turn

 5     right, it was a building adapted from some previous purpose.  It was next

 6     to a small church, and it was surrounded by private houses that were

 7     inhabited.  We knew that it was inadequate and temporary because we had

 8     already started a renovation of the prison in Beli Manastir.

 9        Q.   For how long was this prison in Dalj used?

10        A.   I don't think it was more than ten days because when it stopped

11     operating, it was connected with an incident.  Very quickly, within a

12     very short time, all Serbs were placed in that prison, and the next day a

13     large number of their friends and sympathizers came to release them,

14     carrying weapons.  The police stopped them from doing so and the

15     prisoners remained there.  But already the next morning, explosives were

16     set up by the wall of the prison, probably with the intention of blowing

17     up the wall and releasing the prisoners.  The explosion damaged the wall

18     of the prison and fortunately nobody was hurt.  The explosion also

19     damaged the church nearby.  The windows and tiles on both buildings were

20     shattered, and there was also damage to the private homes around.

21             With the assistance of the prison guards, we continued to hold

22     prisoners in that damaged building for a while but already the following

23     morning they were moved to Beli Manastir.  Then we abandoned that prison.

24     It was no longer in our purview, and I don't know what happened to it

25     later.

Page 11978

 1        Q.   When you said "the church nearby was damaged," what kind of

 2     church was it?

 3        A.   I'm not sure.  I can't say.  It was a small place of worship.  I

 4     don't know it was even operating, but I don't know if it was Orthodox or

 5     Catholic.  I never asked.  But it's true that it was damaged.  The wall

 6     cracked.  All the windows were shattered, the roof tiles fell off, but it

 7     was not destroyed.  It didn't collapse.

 8        Q.   You said a barrel of explosives was set there.  How do you know

 9     that it was exactly there and not by the church?

10        A.   Well, the police came and they made an on-site investigation and

11     compiled a record; I didn't interfere with that.  But you could see

12     clearly where the primary explosion was.

13        Q.   Who was the warden of that prison in Dalj, the one that was

14     within the purview of the Ministry of Justice?

15        A.   The warden was one Mr. Zaric.  I believe his name was Branislav.

16     He later moved to Beli Manastir and continued to work there.

17        Q.   What was his training?  What did he do before becoming the warden

18     of the prison in Dalj?

19        A.   He, as well as the others, was a prison guard before, and they

20     worked in different prisons over Croatia in different ranks.  I never

21     inquired.  He used to work in some prison in Lipovica or Gradiska, or

22     maybe he worked even in the investigation centre.  In any case, he was

23     qualified for the job.

24        Q.   Do you know if any representatives of international organisations

25     visited the prisons in Dalj and Beli Manastir at the time of the

Page 11979

 1     existence of SBWS?

 2        A.   When this temporary prison in Dalj was opened and when the prison

 3     in Beli Manastir was opened, both Stevo Zaric and Mr. Kulic as the warden

 4     of the prison in Beli Manastir and myself insisted that the ICRC

 5     immediately register the existence of this prison.  Records of prisoners

 6     were kept, and they were visited and inspected once a year.  They did

 7     their job and we didn't interfere with it.

 8        Q.   When you mean "they visited," who do you mean?

 9        A.   Representatives of the ICRC came once a week.  They talked to the

10     prisoners.  They inquired after their health and general condition.  And,

11     to be quite honest, they often helped us get hold of some supplies, like

12     toiletries, tinned food, et cetera.

13        Q.   Did you perhaps hear of an incident that happened in Dalj on the

14     21st of September, 1991, wherein Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, extracted a

15     number of people from one prison and these people were later found dead?

16        A.   From the prisons operated by people who were responsible to my

17     ministry, nobody was taken.  I never heard of this incident.

18        Q.   Did you hear that Goran Hadzic took out some detainees from that

19     prison in Dalj?

20        A.   No, never.

21        Q.   Was it ever discussed at a session of the government of Slavonia,

22     Baranja, and Western Srem?

23        A.   If it had been discussed, I would have heard it, but I'm telling

24     you I never heard of any such thing.  It was not discussed.

25        Q.   Do you know maybe that the police had reported to the judiciary

Page 11980

 1     of such an incident, the prosecutor's office, or judges?

 2        A.   I don't think they reported to anyone.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I'm just objecting because the

 4     witness already said he's never heard of this incident, so how would he

 5     know whether it was reported or otherwise.  So we're going into the realm

 6     of speculation.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I agree.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you hear of any incident of 5 October 1991

 9     wherein Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, took a group of Croatian prisoners

10     from that prison or another prison - it doesn't matter - and their bodies

11     were later found in the Jama river in Dalj?

12        A.   I have to be very clear and precise:  If I had heard of any of

13     the incidents you just enumerated, regardless of the fact that it was

14     outside of my work area, because I was a minister in the Ministry of

15     Justice, I would have found a way to bring it to the notice of people who

16     were responsible and to have this prosecuted.

17        Q.   Could you tell us, generally speaking, what procedures were

18     applied by prosecutor's offices and courts in Slavonia, Baranja, and

19     Western Srem.

20        A.   We applied federal legislation in terms of the criminal code and

21     the Law on Criminal Procedure, and we applied the laws of Serbia in

22     matters of criminal law.  And that law, because of the objections I had

23     to the law of Serbia, was the law that we changed the quickest and most

24     radically.

25             What was the basic feature of our changes?  We abolished the

Page 11981

 1     death penalty, and we limited the term of imprisonment to 20 years.  That

 2     was my principle and my understanding that I had always advocated even

 3     before as a lawyer and a prosecutor.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us briefly how did the legislation at the time treat

 5     serious crimes, such as murders, aggravated robbery, rapes, et cetera?

 6        A.   The law that existed in Serbia that we initially enforced was

 7     broadly speaking the same as the law that existed in the Republic of

 8     Croatia before the amendments to the constitution and all that happened

 9     after the multi-party elections.  All our people had been trained to work

10     according to that Croatian legislation.  The principles were the same.

11     For every serious crime that involved a sentence of imprisonment over

12     five years, an investigation was mandatory.  For less serious crimes, you

13     could file a criminal complaint directly.  If there existed a

14     well-grounded suspicion --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Susa.  Mr. Susa, the interpreters asked you

17     to slow down because they have difficulty following you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  I embarked on a

19     subject that is my speciality so I speeded up.  I will repeat more

20     slowly.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I will tell you up to which point we have the translation so can

23     you continue.

24             You said for less serious crimes, you could file an indictment

25     directly.  So start again from there.

Page 11982

 1        A.   When the prosecutor receives a criminal complaint from the police

 2     and finds that there is a suspicion that a crime was committed, he

 3     submits a request to conduct an investigation.  That request is decided

 4     upon by an investigating judge.  If the investigating judge agrees that

 5     there is a well-grounded suspicion that a crime has been committed, he

 6     issues a decision to carry out an investigation.  As a rule, when serious

 7     crimes are involved, there is usually one of the possible four reasons to

 8     put the person in remand.  The judge decides to put the suspect in

 9     remand -- excuse me.  The prosecutor decides to put the suspect in

10     remand, and the investigating judge has to approve it.  Thirty days is

11     the minimal term determined at the outset but it can also last very long,

12     all the way up to the point when the reasons that led to placing the

13     person in remand are no longer there.

14        Q.   Could you please tell us, under the prevalent regulations what

15     was the longest remand in custody before indictment -- the indictment was

16     issued?

17        A.   Six months.

18        Q.   You remember the date when those laws were passed.  That was on

19     the 9th of October.  That's when the judges were elected.  Did they start

20     working immediately, as soon as the laws were passed on the 9th of

21     October, 1991?

22        A.   There were no technical capabilities in place for their work, and

23     not all the judges and assessor judges were elected at that time.  We did

24     not have enough space.  We did not have appropriate premises that could

25     serve as courtrooms, let alone some other technical problems, such as the

Page 11983

 1     lack of typewriters, paper, and everything that is needed for the

 2     everyday operations of a court.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1007, tab 164.  164.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] This is one of the decisions.  I'm sure that

 5     will you remember it because it bears your signature.  This is about the

 6     beginning of operations of the basic court in Vukovar with a temporary

 7     seat in Dalj?

 8        A.   Yes, after the preparations.

 9        Q.   The date mentioned here as the start of the operations of this

10     prosecutor's office is the 4th of November, 1991.  Is that the date when

11     all the other judiciary bodies started operating?

12        A.   I believe so.  When the chief administrator of a body finds that

13     all the conditions have been put in place for the start of operations, he

14     informs me about that and I pass a decision of this nature.  I couldn't

15     pass a decision of this kind until I got a message from the people in the

16     field that they had everything that was necessary to launch the

17     operations of their institution.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1007 will be Exhibit D218.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You've told us that there was this problem of the lack of

24     equipment.  Did judiciary bodies have vehicles at their disposal when

25     they first started operating?

Page 11984

 1        A.   No.  Unfortunately, they didn't have any vehicles at all.  People

 2     often used their own private cars as company cars for as long as they had

 3     the money to buy fuel.  Much later, we did receive some cars that were

 4     shared by two or three separate bodies.  That was a prevalent body which

 5     marked pioneering stages of work.  Most of my work boiled down to dealing

 6     with the marketing work, as it were.  I toured Serbia to raise funds,

 7     collect equipment, and bring all that over to our region where we tried

 8     to create our own judiciary bodies.

 9        Q.   Do you remember whether vehicles were requested for the work of

10     judiciary bodies?

11        A.   Yes.  Very often such requests were made.  I suppose that I got

12     on people's nerves with my requests of that kind.  I looked for them

13     where there were some to be had.  Particularly the military had them and

14     they stored them at various places, and one such place was in Ilok.  When

15     I turned to the Ilok command to approve two or three cars for our use,

16     they never even replied.  They never even answered our letter.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D844.  It is tab 26.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] What you can see here is one of the requests in

19     respect of the procurement of vehicles.  Is this one of the requests that

20     was submitted by the judiciary bodies to the military, asking them to

21     provide them with vehicles for official use?

22        A.   Yes.  You can see that the heads of all the judiciary bodies

23     signed this letter and stamped it to make it look very serious.  However,

24     it was all to no avail.  Nothing came out of this letter, as well as of

25     any others.

Page 11985

 1        Q.   Can you just briefly tell us why were official vehicles needed?

 2     Why did the court -- courts need vehicles to deal with their criminal

 3     cases?

 4        A.   I'm sure that you have learned in this case that our territory

 5     was wide and long.  Sometimes we had to travel 300 metres, on very scenic

 6     routes, from south to north, from east to west.  How could you carry out

 7     an on-site inspection if you couldn't get there?  Those on-site

 8     inspections were sometimes carried out by the military or the police

 9     alone, and when they reached us, there were some errors in them that were

10     very hard to correct subsequently.  If nobody else, at least an

11     investigating judge had to be sent to the site of crime to carry out or

12     be involved in an on-site investigation there.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document into

14     evidence.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D844 is Exhibit D219.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   According to what you know, could you please tell us whether the

19     Yugoslav People's Army informed the judiciary bodies of Slavonia,

20     Baranja, and Western Srem about the crimes that they may have detected?

21        A.   We have to be very clear and precise in that.  The Yugoslav

22     People's Army, in keeping with their authorities in the field, which

23     constituted a zone of combat activities, was not supposed to inform us

24     about anything.  Despite that, we asked them to inform us so that we

25     could make a contribution and so that we could get involved in dealing

Page 11986

 1     with some of the problems that appeared in the field.  We noticed that

 2     very often their organs, which were the primary point of contact when it

 3     came to interviewing suspects or eye-witnesses or securing the site of

 4     crime, did not do their job properly.  In most of the cases, we were

 5     never informed about any of the procedures that they may have carried

 6     out.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, tab 674.  It is P104.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] This is one of the reports drafted by the

 9     security organ of the Yugoslav People's Army.  This is concerning

10     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and his conduct.  We have several such

11     reports, but I chose this one by way of example.  This is about the

12     murder of some imprisoned members of the ZNG and some other persons.

13             Did you ever receive any reports about such crimes, especially

14     involving Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, or reports that some proceedings had

15     been instigated by the military judiciary bodies against him?

16        A.   I repeat:  I personally never received any reports either from

17     the people from the judiciary, which is particularly significant, or the

18     military, which was not duty-bound to inform me about anything,

19     especially about the crimes of this nature.  It would have been only

20     logical that this would have caused a reaction among the military

21     judiciary bodies if this indeed had happened because this report was sent

22     to military bodies.  I don't know whether this really happened or not.

23        Q.   We will continue talking about the judiciary bodies of Slavonia,

24     Baranja, and Western Srem, on the one hand, and military bodies, on the

25     other, and their jurisdictions.

Page 11987

 1             Before that, I wanted to raise another topic.  When the military

 2     operations around Vukovar were over, did you go to Vukovar?

 3        A.   I did once.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us why you visited Vukovar once the

 5     military operations were over.

 6        A.   On the eve of my departure for Vukovar, there was a regular

 7     session of the government in Erdut.  And during that session, we received

 8     a report - the chairperson, Goran Hadzic, informed us about that - that

 9     on the following day, the operations for the liberation of Vukovar would

10     be over the following day and that we should appear in Vukovar on that

11     day.  So it was, in a way, demanded from a majority of the ministers who

12     were able to go to Vukovar to do so.  We were to meet at Velepromet

13     around noon.  I received that information.  I was already in the hallway,

14     discussing certain things with some people, and as the secretary of the

15     government was leaving the meeting hall, he conveyed the information to

16     me.

17             Shall I continue?

18        Q.   Go on, go on.

19        A.   On the following day, I got up.  I didn't feel well.  I was

20     already coming done with a migraine that I suffer from --

21        Q.   I apologise for interrupting.  Let's go back to the previous day

22     and to the session of the government in Erdut.  What should been the

23     nature of your visit to Vukovar?  What were you supposed to do there?

24     What was the purpose of your visit?  How did you understand that?

25        A.   The way I understood the whole situation was that it would have

Page 11988

 1     been a symbolic visit to Vukovar.  We were supposed to see as many people

 2     as possible, and in most banal terms, that visit should have given us

 3     some political points.

 4        Q.   What was the nature of the meeting in Vukovar?

 5        A.   I never realised that until the moment I came to that meeting.

 6        Q.   Do you remember whether a government session should have taken

 7     place in Vukovar?  Was there an agenda, or was that to be only an

 8     informal visit?

 9        A.   I thought that it would be an informal visit.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  I need to start objecting with regard to these

12     contentious issues but this is a very leading question.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The witness has the option to answer the

14     question.

15             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, the leading nature is that the --

16     Defence counsel is testifying for the witness.  It is putting to the

17     witness that this was an informal meeting without an agenda and, of

18     course, the witness, being a Defence witness, is agreeing with that.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I see the witness -- it is just clarification of

21     the witness's answer in line 20.  He stated that:

22             "The way I understood the whole situation was that it would have

23     been a symbolic visit to Vukovar."

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But then, Mr. Zivanovic, in line 24 -- in

25     line 24, the question is:

Page 11989

 1             "What was the nature of the meeting in Vukovar?"

 2             And then the witness answers:

 3             "I never realised that until the moment I came to that meeting."

 4             But he didn't - and I would say you didn't allow him to - explain

 5     what the nature of the meeting was.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'll not -- I'll not insist on the

 7     answer to that question at all.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you continue what you started to say about

 9     the 20th November when you had that migraine.

10        A.   Yes, of course, I don't need any suggestions to continue.  And I

11     thank both you and the Prosecutor.

12             That morning, I already woke up with a slight headache.  I was

13     close to deciding not to go anywhere, but then my escort came to see me.

14     He's actually my friend, Nikola Drpa, and he begged me to take that trip

15     at all costs.  He is a native of Vukovar, and I suppose he was keen to

16     see in what condition his house was and his friends as well who remained

17     there.  He couldn't take the trip without me because if I was not going,

18     the driver was staying with me in Belgrade.  So I agreed to go.

19             And now I can't remember whether we picked up Mr. Bogdan Vojnovic

20     in Novi Sad and drove with him to Sid or we picked him up in Sid.  At any

21     rate, the four of us - Mr. Vojnovic, Mr. Drpa, the driver,

22     Radoslav Zlatic, and myself - arrived in Vukovar around 10.30.  The route

23     was from Negoslavci, and the part of town where we arrived is called

24     Petrova Gora.  In that part of the city, the buildings were not

25     destroyed, although you could see damage on the roofs and houses but all

Page 11990

 1     the buildings were standing.

 2             As you went towards the building of Velepromet, the crowds were

 3     thicker and thicker.  Many passenger cars, buses, trucks and many

 4     pedestrians were crowding the streets.  We parked there, and we continued

 5     on foot down the street which was supposed to take us to the house of

 6     Nikola Drpa.  We left the building and the yard of Velepromet on the

 7     left.  There I saw hundreds and hundreds of people moving about, and I

 8     noticed representatives of the ICRC, monitors of the European community

 9     in white.

10             And when we had walked another 3- or 400 metres, the street

11     starts going downhill and you get a panorama of the city, and then we

12     beheld all the horror that Vukovar was at that time.  I don't know if

13     there was a single undamaged building.  They were all unbelievably

14     destroyed and only chimneys were pointing upwards.

15             I don't know that city very well, but another couple of streets

16     down, we started going downhill towards the right.  Soldiers from the

17     sanitization section were collecting bodies and probably preparing them

18     for further transport.  One of the soldiers asked where we were going,

19     and we said -- in fact, Drpa explained where his house was, and the

20     soldier said:  But, people, there are still trip-wire mines there.  You

21     are walking on very dangerous ground.

22             Still, we all continued and reached his house only to find that

23     there was only one room of his house remaining.  And there we found four

24     or five half-drunken soldiers who were looting things from his house.

25     Fortunately, it all ended well because, as far as I understood, they were

Page 11991

 1     even ready to shoot at us.  So a bit confused and frightened, we returned

 2     to the Velepromet building.  I believe that from arrival to Vukovar to

 3     Velepromet, we were there for one hour or 70 minutes, max.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us, on that 20th November, did you need any special

 5     permit to go to Vukovar?

 6        A.   I already emphasised earlier, it was a precondition, it was a

 7     technical requirement to move from Sid to the combat zone.  I know my

 8     driver went to get those permits because I didn't leave the car.  He

 9     brought these permits, and we continued on our way.  And on the

10     check-point, we produced these permits and we were allowed to pass

11     through.

12        Q.   Who was manning the check-point?

13        A.   The army.  Only the army.

14        Q.   Can you tell us, in Velepromet itself, did a meeting take place?

15        A.   Yes.  We had to wait for that meeting to begin.  In the yard of

16     Velepromet, there was the little house where the police was, and in the

17     yard, a huge number of people were standing.  I saw Zeljko Raznjatovic,

18     Arkan, Goran Hadzic, Vitomir Devetak, but they were all standing in

19     little clusters of people whom they obviously knew.  I was standing with

20     Vojislav [as interpreted] Vojnovic and people came up to him, people who

21     knew him.  They talked to him.  I was just an observer.  I had really

22     nothing to talk about with these people.

23             We spent a whole hour standing there.  And it was becoming

24     awkward.  Of course, officers were milling around, going in and out of

25     offices.  It's a huge space.  And then an officer showed up, a

Page 11992

 1     lieutenant-colonel, who invited us to go into the first room to the right

 2     of the entrance.  He opened the door, and I believe Goran told us:  Go

 3     in, please.  So I went in too.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us approximately how many people were in that room?

 5        A.   When you go into that room, which is rectangular, I would say, to

 6     the left of the door, and the door is to the extreme left of that room,

 7     right next to the door, there was a table against the wall and around it

 8     were chairs.  And then tables were placed like in a classroom.  I believe

 9     there were four rows of tables with two chairs by each table, so people

10     were coming in and taking seats, and there were perhaps ten more people

11     leaning against the wall.  When we got in, I sat down, I believe it was

12     the third bench from the door in the fourth row.  Vojnovic sat down next

13     to me and the others followed.  At the head of the table, there was

14     Dr. -- there was Mr. Hadzic.

15             People were coming in and going out.  If you ask how many people

16     there were, I would say that at any time there were 30 people but that

17     number varied all the time.

18        Q.   Let's just see if there are some points that are not clear on the

19     record.

20             First of all, you said you were standing in the yard of

21     Velepromet with Vojislav Vojnovic.

22        A.   No, that was Bogdan Vojnovic.  There is no such person as

23     Vojislav Vojnovic.  There is only Milos Vojnovic and Bogdan Vojnovic.

24     Bogdan Vojnovic was with me.

25        Q.   When you said that Vojnovic sat down next to you, which Vojnovic

Page 11993

 1     you meant?

 2        A.   On that day, there was no Milos Vojnovic in Velepromet, only

 3     Bogdan Vojnovic who was with me.

 4        Q.   You mean he wasn't standing next -- sitting next to you?

 5        A.   Milos?  Milos was not there at the session in Velepromet.  It was

 6     Bogdan who was in Velepromet with me, and he was sitting next to me.

 7        Q.   And what happened later, once you sat down?

 8        A.   This lieutenant-colonel stood up, greeted us, and introduced

 9     himself.  He said his name was Vojnovic.  Now we have the third Vojnovic,

10     and to avoid confusion, we have to be clear.  And the confusion is still

11     greater because I don't know to this day whether he is Vojnovic or

12     Vojinovic, and it's not clear to me to this day.

13             He started saying:  As you see, the operations to liberate

14     Vukovar are coming to an end.  There are small pockets of resistance that

15     will be overcome by the end of the day.  And then came the first

16     responses from Dr. Mladen Hadzic who interrupted the lieutenant-colonel,

17     stood up and made a long introductory speech.  And then he wound up more

18     and more, getting ever rougher with this Vojnovic until he finally

19     attacked him very fiercely about the way in which the army proceeded in

20     Vukovar, resulting in a complete destruction of the city.

21             To some point, I understood this emotional reaction of

22     Dr. Mladen Hadzic, because probably a number of people in Vukovar

23     realised that very day that their houses were destroyed.  It was a

24     difficult thing to take in, and they were finding it hard to deal with

25     it.

Page 11994

 1             After this very harsh critique against the heavy-handedness of

 2     the army, some other people took the floor, including Slavko Dokmanovic,

 3     who was even rougher on this Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic and ended by

 4     saying it would have been better if nothing had been done.  It would have

 5     been better if we had come to agreement with the Ustashas, if the city

 6     had remained standing, and then we would have later come to an

 7     arrangement how to divide it.

 8             Vitomir Devetak was next to speak, also condemning such a heavy

 9     use of equipment and weapons.  And Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic

10     defending -- defended himself with arguments that were to some point

11     true.  He said simply that they didn't have enough troops and that all

12     the loss of life was too much so they opted for this way to proceed.  All

13     that is destroyed can be rebuilt, but people's lives cannot be recovered.

14             I did not say anything in that discussion.  There was no subject

15     for me to react to.  However, a subject was then broached by

16     Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic himself who said:  As a result of the final

17     operations, we now have a large number of prisoners, and those prisoners

18     who will surrender today will be transported to three different

19     destinations in Serbia.  I believe he said - and I'm almost sure - that

20     those were Sremska Mitrovica, Begejci, and Stajicevo.  All this was fine

21     but then he added:  And then when we establish their exact number, when

22     we establish their identity, we will enforce the rules and the procedure

23     we have used so far, namely, an exchange all for all.

24             Then I asked for the floor.  I introduced myself, and I said:

25     Lieutenant-Colonel, and what about crimes, the crimes that had continued

Page 11995

 1     for almost the whole past year?  He answered:  The war crimes are in the

 2     exclusive jurisdiction of the army.

 3             That was not in dispute, not then and not now.  But I emphasised

 4     I didn't mean only war crimes.  I meant crimes in their continuity,

 5     crimes about which, by that time, we had a pile of documentation.  How

 6     were we going to know who committed these crimes unless we get hard

 7     evidence?  Direct evidence that we can get by interrogating people who

 8     were not perpetrators maybe but have some knowledge.  I said:  You have

 9     to make it possible for professional interviews in pre-investigating and

10     investigative procedures to take place so that we can get evidence on

11     serious crimes and war crimes.  We suggest that you give it a think and

12     we will certainly come up a proposal that in all stages of this

13     procedure, we be involved in Vukovar, both as investigators and as

14     judges.  He said:  I am not the right person to talk about this.  You can

15     do that in the period that follows and approach somebody else.  And he

16     went on to say:  I repeat, among these people, there are very few

17     criminals.  Most of them are people who were forcibly mobilised.  I did

18     not say any different.  But, at that moment, Goran Hadzic asked for the

19     floor and said:  Lieutenant-Colonel, we have often discussed that there

20     were many crimes committed.  We don't know how many criminals there are.

21     I will agree with you that their number is perhaps smaller than the

22     numbers we have in mind now but we cannot know until these crimes are

23     investigated who are the perpetrators.  At this moment, unfortunately,

24     all we know is that there are a large number of victims.  He said also:

25     You know that we, as the government, have taken a very clear stance and

Page 11996

 1     we do not identify the Croatian people with criminals, and we are

 2     perfectly aware that we will have to peacefully coexist in the future.

 3     By that time, Goran was standing.

 4             And then after saying this he, and perhaps Arkan with him, left

 5     the room.  Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic addressed us against and said:  So

 6     we have finished with this subject.  We are now introducing a military

 7     administration in Vukovar.  I am the new commander of Vukovar and,

 8     please, if there are any problems that you think I can assist with,

 9     please approach me and we should perhaps have more frequent consultations

10     in the future.

11             So this discussion that took perhaps about an hour was over and

12     we all started leaving.  As I was passing through the gate, I saw

13     Goran talking to somebody.  He just asked me briefly:  What did you agree

14     about?  I said:  I don't really know.  We will have to address a request,

15     I don't know to whom, that we are allowed to be involved in the

16     investigative proceedings.  And after that, we got into the car and drove

17     to Belgrade.

18             All the rest I have already explained in my statement and in my

19     evidence in the Slavko Dokmanovic case.

20        Q.   Would you be able to remember which other government members

21     attended that meeting that you have just described for us?

22        A.   I mentioned Dr. Mladen Hadzic.  Perhaps I should start with

23     Goran Hadzic.  Vitomir Devetak, Bogdan Vojnovic, myself, Bogdan Vorkapic,

24     Boro Bogunovic, Caslav Ocic, the government secretary, Jovan Pejakovic.

25     I apologise.  I can't remember anybody else.  There may have been other

Page 11997

 1     people, but I can't remember them.

 2        Q.   Do you remember whether a record was taken of that meeting?

 3        A.   No.  I suppose that some of the officers would have done that or

 4     perhaps Jovan Pejakovic.  It was a government session so it would have

 5     been Jovan Pejakovic.  Jovan Pejakovic was sitting somewhere in the back

 6     of the room and I never saw him before we actually started leaving the

 7     meeting room.

 8        Q.   Do you remember whether there was a subsequent meeting at which

 9     the minutes from Velepromet were adopted?

10        A.   There were no minutes taken at the session which was held at

11     Velepromet.

12        Q.   Do you remember, apart from Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic, were

13     there any other officers present at the meeting; can you remember?

14        A.   There were three or four men, perhaps even five.  One of them was

15     Major Sljivancanin.  At the beginning of the meeting, he peeked through

16     the door to see who was there and left.  Apart from Vojnovic, who

17     introduced himself to us, whom I didn't know, the others never introduced

18     themselves to us and I didn't know them from before either.

19        Q.   Before the meeting started, or in the course of the meeting, did

20     anybody try to establish a quorum?

21        A.   No, no quorum was established.

22        Q.   Do you remember if anybody tried to explain why Ilija Kojic did

23     not attend the meeting?

24        A.   As far as I remember, nobody mentioned Ilija Kojic.

25     Unfortunately, nobody did.  At that time, Ilija Kojic was in Belgrade

Page 11998

 1     fighting for his life.

 2        Q.   Before the meeting, or in the course of the meeting, did anybody

 3     inform the attendees of the agenda?

 4        A.   There was no agenda.  Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic delivered a

 5     keynote address.  He tackled the first topic.  He was the one who had the

 6     floor all the time, and all of us intervened, some of us adequately, some

 7     of us less adequately.  Some were shouting, some were not.  It all

 8     depended on the emotional state of those people.

 9        Q.   Did anybody say that the agenda was the same as the previous

10     meeting?

11        A.   No, the agenda was not the same.  There was no agenda to speak

12     of.

13        Q.   Just one more question.  Did you stay throughout the meeting from

14     the very beginning to the very end?

15        A.   Yes, from the beginning to the end.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I see the clock, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             We'll take the first break, 30 minutes.  We'll be back at 11.00.

19             Court adjourned.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 11999

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Susa, I will continue with my questions

 2     about the meeting at Velepromet.

 3             Are you able to tell us if at this meeting, perhaps you requested

 4     an explanation as to where 1.500 prisoners were taken?

 5        A.   Nobody spoke about the number of prisoners at that meeting.

 6     Knowing what the authority of the JNA was, I wouldn't even ask about any

 7     group of prisoners, knowing that they were completely under the

 8     jurisdiction of the Yugoslav People's Army.  Had any of my colleagues

 9     spoken up and asked about it, I would have tried to explain to him what

10     it was all about.

11        Q.   At the meeting, did Goran Hadzic ask you if there was enough

12     capacity to accommodate the prisoners?

13        A.   At that meeting in that room, Goran Hadzic didn't ask me

14     anything.  I've already told you what he asked me when we were in the

15     Velepromet yard.  But Goran Hadzic had to have known that our capacities

16     were very slight in the Beli Manastir district prison where the maximum

17     number we could accommodate was 120 prisoners.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours.  I should have rose faster, but

20     these are very leading questions.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             MR. OLMSTED:  I'm a bit -- well, first of all, I'm a bit


Page 12000

 1     concerned by what Mr. Zivanovic just said on public record here, which --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You want to go into private session?

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Perhaps we should.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12001











11 Pages 12001-12002 redacted. Private session.
















Page 12003

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did anybody mention General Jefto Crnalic [phoen]?

 8        A.   No.  I don't know who that is.

 9        Q.   And do you remember if the people at the meeting were waiting for

10     an officer of the JNA to appear with some news or anything like that?

11        A.   Well, nobody told me that we were waiting for anyone, and I

12     really couldn't conclude anything like that on the basis of anything that

13     happened.

14        Q.   And before the end of the meeting, did an officer of the JNA

15     appear who gave some sort of sign by nodding his head or something like

16     that and then everybody left the room, and that's how the meeting

17     concluded?

18        A.   I didn't leave the room after any officer appeared.  I didn't

19     notice anyone.  I left the meeting when Mr. Vojnovic said that the

20     meeting was finished.

21        Q.   And did any government member threaten the army at the meeting by

22     saying that your units would be brought in from SBWS, units with arms,

23     anything like that?

24        A.   No, there were no such threats, and we didn't have any armed

25     forces to make threats with.  There were raised voices and mutual


Page 12004

 1     quarrels, but nobody threatened anybody with any weapons.

 2        Q.   Are you able to remember what you were wearing at the meeting?

 3        A.   I always wore an old military uniform that was comfortable and

 4     pleasant.  I didn't have any other clothing, unfortunately.  This was --

 5     you know the sort of uniform that I'm talking about.  It's an old work

 6     uniform of olive-drab colour.  I'm not really good as describing it, but

 7     I think you know the one.

 8        Q.   And do you remember what the other people were wearing?  I'm not

 9     talking about the JNA officers but the others who were present at that

10     meeting.

11        A.   Bogdan Vojnovic, who was closest to me, was carrying civilian

12     clothing.  He was wearing some sort of thick jacket.  All the others were

13     wearing military uniforms, newer ones, older ones.  There were different

14     kinds of uniform.  Most of them were wearing brown uniforms and some of

15     them were wearing camouflage.

16        Q.   And do you remember if anybody wore blue police uniforms?

17        A.   I didn't notice anybody wearing that kind of uniform, no.

18        Q.   And did anyone say that the prisoners had to be physically

19     eliminated?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Do you perhaps remember if Dr. Vojislav Vukcevic was present at

22     the meeting?

23        A.   Dr. Vojislav Vukcevic was my professor from Osijek.  He taught

24     civil material law.  I knew him very well.  He wasn't at the meeting.

25     Had he been there, I would have definitely been sitting next to him.

Page 12005

 1        Q.   And do you remember if Vojin Dabic was at the meeting?

 2        A.   Vojin Dabic was not at the meeting.  The first time I saw him and

 3     met him was during the negotiations with the Croatian side, in Geneva.

 4        Q.   What about Ljuban Devetak, was he at the meeting?

 5        A.   I met Ljuban Devetak in Lovas during a very large meeting.

 6     Vitomir Devetak was the one who was at the meeting.  Ljuban was not at

 7     the meeting in Velepromet; it was Vitomir who attended that meeting.

 8        Q.   Do you know what Ljuban Devetak was doing in Lovas?

 9        A.   When I went to Lovas, I found out that he was the director of the

10     agricultural combine there -- agricultural co-operative there.

11        Q.   You spoke about the crimes that were committed in Vukovar around

12     the time when the military operations were being brought to an end.  Did

13     the government have a position with regard to those crimes of which they

14     were informed as having been committed before and during the military

15     operations in Vukovar?

16        A.   It was not the government's position.  It was everybody's

17     position and everywhere.  The position is that perpetrators of crimes

18     should be taken to task, and that was also the government's position.

19        Q.   I'm now going to show you the transcript of a video-clip, a part

20     of a video footage, actually.  You will see Goran Hadzic's words.  I'm

21     not going to play the video itself.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's P58, tab 709.  I'm

23     interested in the second page in the original and in the English

24     translation.  You will see -- in the original it will be the first

25     paragraph where Goran Hadzic is saying something and in the English

Page 12006

 1     translation it will be in the last paragraph on this page.

 2        Q.   He says as follows:

 3             "As I said, I'm not concerned with the military issue.  I'm

 4     positive about the final solution.  However, I'm concerned because I

 5     received information from some of our services.  They tell me that the

 6     situation in Zagreb, and we know what happened in Vukovar, that

 7     large-scale crime was committed against the civilian population.  We will

 8     investigate that and we will bring perpetrators before an

 9     international -- a national court, or a people's court.  I am certain

10     that they will be punished according to what they did."

11             Could you please tell us whether these words uttered by

12     Goran Hadzic with regard to processing those crimes reflect the position

13     of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Mr. Susa, after the meeting at Velepromet, did you undertake any

16     measures and make sure that the judiciary of SBWS got involved in the

17     investigations of the imprisoned members of the Croatian armed forces?

18        A.   Yes.  Milos Vojnovic was in charge of the technical part of the

19     job.  On one occasion, he informed me who his collocutor was on the other

20     side as opposed to address him for a permit [as interpreted].

21     Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic pointed that to me.  Milos Vojnovic and I

22     drafted a letter to the commander of the 1st Military District.  We

23     received an answer.  Milos set up a team of investigators, and they

24     embarked on the job on the task at hand in the penal correctional

25     facility in Sremska Mitrovica.

Page 12007

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P3262.  It is tab 301.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Please look at the screen.  There is a letter on

 3     it.  Could you please tell us whether this is the letter that you sent to

 4     the command of the 1st Army District?

 5        A.   Yes, this is my letter.

 6        Q.   Tell me, please, whether your request was met.

 7        A.   Yes, it was.

 8        Q.   After that, did you go to Sremska Mitrovica?  Did you go and

 9     visit this correctional and penal facility in Sremska Mitrovica?

10        A.   Yes, on two occasions, the first time and the last time.

11        Q.   Could you please describe your first visit to Sremska Mitrovica.

12        A.   On that occasion, I went together with the investigating judges.

13     We reported to the superior officer there.  They entered the facility,

14     not immediately.  We were informed that the officer in charge was waiting

15     for us in the hotel which was part of the correctional facility.  We went

16     there.  Several officers of the JNA were already there.  The judges were

17     allowed to go to their rooms, and then they returned to the lobby.  We

18     were all sitting there, talking, having cups of coffee.

19        Q.   On that occasion, did you enter the prison?  Did you see the

20     prisoners?

21        A.   No, I didn't.  And according to the information that I received

22     from the judges, the judges were able to do that a few hours later.  On

23     that occasion, I myself did not enter the correctional facility.

24        Q.   Do you remember any of the judges who were with you on that

25     occasion?

Page 12008

 1        A.   Yes, Jovan Ajdukovic, Grujo Amidzic, Slobodan Kovacevic, and

 2     three or four colleagues whom I didn't know that well.

 3        Q.   Who did you talk to on that occasion; do you remember?

 4        A.   I talked to all the officers.  In other words, we all

 5     participated in the talks.  And the person whom I perceived as their boss

 6     and who introduced himself as Branko Ruzic is who talked to us as well.

 7     But then, at the end of that conversation, he told us that he wasn't

 8     Branko Ruzic but Bogdan Vujic.  I found that very strange.  He told me:

 9     That's common practice amongst us.  We don't always give people our real

10     name.  I found that a bit funny and I asked him:  So are you Bogdan?  And

11     he said:  Yes, I am Bogdan Vujic.  I talked to him, he was seated next to

12     me.  We were drinking coffee.  We did not discuss the topic which brought

13     the people to the correctional facility in the first place.  We discussed

14     general topics more than anything else.

15        Q.   Did you talk about the scope of authority that these officers had

16     vis-à-vis the prisoners?  Did they have the decision-making power, were

17     they able to decide what measures to undertake against them?

18        A.   One of them, I believe that it was Mr. Bogdan Vujic who said that

19     they were just an operative group involved in pre-investigation

20     procedures which is only normal.  And he said that we -- they don't make

21     any decisions regarding the prisoners, that it will be somebody else

22     elsewhere who will make those decisions.  I suppose that he had in mind

23     the command in Belgrade and I found that normal and clear.

24        Q.   Do you remember any other officer?  Do you remember the names of

25     any other officers?

Page 12009

 1        A.   No, I don't remember their names.  They probably introduced

 2     themselves to me, but I don't remember their names.  The only name I do

 3     remember is Mr. Vujic's name.

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us how come you remember his name and not

 5     any others?

 6        A.   Because Bogdan Vujic and I continued meeting directly and

 7     indirectly.  On that day when I was leaving the parking lot in front of

 8     the correctional and penal facility in Sremska Mitrovica, my driver and

 9     my escort were standing right next to me.  Mr. Vujic appeared from the

10     correctional facility.  He approached me in a haste.  He was carrying a

11     transparent plastic bag in his hand.  When he was some 2 or 3 metres away

12     from us, I realised that that was a big bag, that it contained some

13     15 kilos of money, German marks.  He extended his hand.  He gave me that

14     bag and he told me:  This is yours.  Take that to the people of Vukovar.

15     I said:  That's all fantastic, but, Mr. Vujic, I have time, why don't we

16     make a record of this hand-over?  Why don't we count the money?  Why

17     don't you sign a hand-over note?  Why don't I sign a receipt for that

18     money?  And he says:  Listen, are you taking the money or not?  I said:

19     Yes, I will take it but in the manner that I've just described to you.

20     He turned around and he said:  It's very clear that you don't need this

21     money, and he left.

22             I complained about what he did even to some military personnel

23     whom I know -- whom I knew and with whom I was on good terms.  I suppose

24     that the word reached him eventually.  On one occasion, he sent me a very

25     ugly and very strange message through my driver, and the message was that

Page 12010

 1     I would have a lot of problems.  I don't know why.  He didn't tell me

 2     why.  He wasn't specific with this regard.  My driver conveyed the

 3     message to me, and his advice was:  I don't know what this is about, but

 4     you should watch what you do.  You should be careful.

 5        Q.   Could you please look at the last paragraph in this letter of

 6     yours, which we see on the screen.  It says here that volunteers and

 7     members of the TO have committed a number of offences against property

 8     and that military police organs confiscated items from them, and so on

 9     and so forth.

10             What's this about?  What does this part of your letter refer to?

11        A.   You did not read all of it, did you?  I didn't say that it was

12     done only by members of volunteer units and some members of TO units.  I

13     said that, unfortunately, some members of the JNA were involved in some

14     dealings as well -- in the same dealings as well.  That area was very

15     affluent before the war, as you probably know, and even after the war

16     destructions, a lot of property was left over.  Cars, combines, valuable

17     assets used in agricultural, household appliances, and things like that.

18     And it was a common practice that some higher ranking officers also

19     subscribed to.  All that was war booty, and those assets were

20     continuously driven away from the area.  In one part of my letter, I

21     point to that as well.  The value of that property would have been huge

22     for everybody, and especially for us, under such conditions, and losing

23     such valuable property made us even poorer.

24        Q.   Why did you refuse to take the money that was offered to you by

25     Mr. Vujic?

Page 12011

 1        A.   I am a cautious man.  I behave in accordance with the law.  I

 2     really couldn't assume how much money was in that bag.  I knew of similar

 3     instances where things were not recorded properly, and it was all about

 4     hearsay as to what was received, what was given, and it was simply

 5     unacceptable for me.

 6        Q.   On that occasion when you were offered money and when you turned

 7     the offer down, was there anybody else there besides you and Vujic?

 8        A.   I mentioned them, Nikola Drpa and Radoslav Zlatic.

 9        Q.   You've told us that Vujic sent you messages through your driver.

10     What messages were those?

11        A.   Between my first and second visits to the correctional facility,

12     my driver went there on his own several times.  He carried documents and

13     personal effects to the judges who were there.

14             On the second or third occasion when he went on his own,

15     Bogdan Vujic told him that he should convey a message to me, and that was

16     that as a result of my conduct, I was -- I would suffer grave

17     consequences.  And I took that to be a very serious threat.

18        Q.   What kind of conduct of yours provoked him to react in such a

19     way?

20        A.   I don't think that -- no conduct of mine should have provoked

21     such a reaction.  You should ask him what irritated him in my behaviour.

22        Q.   After that first trip -- I mean, you said you were in Mitrovica

23     twice.  Can you describe the second trip, how did it come about and why?

24        A.   The second time I went to Sremska Mitrovica, it had been planned

25     after I received disturbing reports from the judges there.  My contact

Page 12012

 1     person was Jovan Ajdukovic, and once he called me on the phone and said

 2     he was calling me from a telephone outside the KPD and outside the hotel

 3     because there were serious problems in their communication with JNA

 4     officers, or, that is to say, their team that was doing the triage of

 5     prisoners.  He explained that they were not allowed to have contact with

 6     prisoners, not even in the presence of the JNA on which they hadn't

 7     insisted in the first place, but they were finally allowed to have that

 8     contact.  However, they were not allowed to question prisoners as they

 9     wanted to, and instead the army made them put questions that were

10     pointless.  He was especially disturbed by the fact that from the list

11     that would be delivered to them when they wanted to contact somebody,

12     they would regularly be informed that these people were no longer in the

13     KPD, and this report was confirmed to me by some civilian officers in the

14     KPD guards team.

15             It was very serious, in his view, and he addressed Vujic and

16     asked how is it possible that people were disappearing from this list?

17     What rulings were made in their respect?  What procedure is applied?

18     Vujic told him that everything he was saying, he should put on paper.

19     Ajdukovic did that, took it to Vujic's office.  Vujic read it and threw

20     it in the wastebasket.  Ajdukovic said he was no longer willing to

21     continue working like that and that I should receive his report and

22     organise their return to Vukovar.  He said he had spoken to all the

23     colleagues.  They all shared his opinion.  So I answered:  All right,

24     Jovan.  I will come tomorrow and organise that you leave this project,

25     return home, and take up some work which is more adequate.

Page 12013

 1             I informed the secretary of the government, Jovan Pejakovic, that

 2     I would be going to Vukovar -- to Mitrovica the next day, as I normally

 3     informed everyone that I would not be in Erdut on a particular day.  I

 4     don't know if the others did the same, but I always did it.  And then I

 5     was told by Pejakovic:  Goran is also going there tomorrow.  He didn't

 6     say when, but I organised my time and my schedule so as to be in the KPD

 7     at the same time as Goran.  Goran himself didn't tell me anything.

 8             Anyway, the next day, we met outside the building of the KPD.

 9     Japundzic and Mudrinic were together with Goran as well as the minister

10     of the interior, Boro Bogunovic.  I told Goran why I had come, but I

11     didn't understand what his business there was.  He said:  These people

12     invited me for some sort of discussion.  That was all.  So I didn't

13     really understand why he had come there.

14             We went in together, into the hotel.  At the hotel, we were met

15     by officers, including Mr. Bogdan Vujic with whom I had no further

16     communication.  The talk was very general, about the political situation,

17     about the situation on the ground, about Vukovar, about various problems.

18     And then at one point, one of these officers - but not Bogdan Vujic -

19     suggested to Goran that he should go into the KPD compound and meet with

20     prisoners, and he said -- that person said:  Don't be afraid.  It's

21     completely safe.

22             As I saw it, it was some sort of provocation, because if Goran

23     refused, he would look like a coward, who was afraid.  So Goran said:

24     All right, I'll go.  And I decided to go with him.  Again, Drpa and

25     Zlatic and Goran's escorts and Boro Bogunovic went with us.  There were a

Page 12014

 1     number of officers as well -- as well as prisoner guards.  We went into

 2     the KPD and that was the first time I ever went into KPD Mitrovica in my

 3     life.

 4             We descended into those rooms.  It was a very old prison, built

 5     at the time of Maria Therese [phoen], with huge dorms with 40 or 50 beds

 6     each, and one of the large cells was opened for us.  When we came,

 7     everybody inside stood up by their beds, and we went in 2 or 3 metres in

 8     the room.  Goran greeted the people, and addressed the first officer

 9     standing next to him, saying:  Do you give these people baths at all?  He

10     really wasn't used to this.  It's true that it was winter, but in a place

11     housing so many people, it's difficult to maintain hygiene and there was

12     a very stale, unpleasant smell in the room.  I don't know what this

13     officer answered.

14             Many of the people inside recognised Goran and shouted to him:

15     Goran.  Asked him questions.  He told them:  I know you are not really

16     comfortable here, but it won't last forever.  It will come to an end.

17     I'm sure that most of you are innocent and you will be going to your

18     homes.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, this happened yesterday and I didn't

20     object.  But these narratives which go on for 15, 20 minutes, it's not

21     conducive to the form of adjudication that we have in this Tribunal and

22     we object to this way of eliciting evidence.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Unfortunately, I did not understand the

25     objection.  The witness spoke -- speaks about acts and conduct of the

Page 12015

 1     accused.  I don't know what is for objection at all.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, I can explain it, Your Honours, if you wish,

 4     to Mr. Zivanovic.  But in an adversarial proceeding such as this one,

 5     evidence is elicited through question and answer, and we don't have any

 6     questions here.  We just have a very, very long answer.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, please try to focus on questions

 9     and answers.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] All right.  My question, in fact, was limited to

12     the purpose of your visit to the KP Dom.  You already explained what that

13     visit was like.

14             Did Goran Hadzic speak to the prisoners during that visit?

15        A.   Yes, he did.

16        Q.   On that occasion, did he question anybody?

17        A.   No, there were 60 people there, and they were all talking to him

18     and he to them.

19        Q.   Can you tell us how long were you inside the prison where the

20     prisoners were?

21        A.   Ten minutes.

22        Q.   On that occasion, were you together all the time, you and

23     Goran Hadzic, or did you go separate ways at some point while you were

24     there?

25        A.   We were all together in a group in a space of about 7 or 8 square

Page 12016

 1     metres.

 2        Q.   Did the prisoners say anything to Goran Hadzic?  Did they address

 3     him?

 4        A.   Well, they put to him various questions.  One of them was

 5     important to me.  People were complaining they were returning out of

 6     cigarettes, they didn't have enough, and I understood that perfectly well

 7     because it would be difficult for me too.

 8        Q.   Throughout that time, were JNA officers there?  Did they withdraw

 9     at some point and leave you alone?

10        A.   No, no, that didn't happen.

11        Q.   While you were there, did any of you, Goran Hadzic, yourself, or

12     any of the officers or military personnel use any force against the

13     prisoners?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   You mentioned that you had received the report about some people

16     who used to be on a list and then disappeared.  Did you find anything out

17     about that?

18        A.   We found out very easily ourselves.  Some of these people were

19     sent away to be exchanged, which was perfectly fine, and some others paid

20     their way to Croatia through their relatives and friends, and that was

21     not all right.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P3200.  It is tab 587.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a letter concerning this visit that was

24     sent by the warden of the prison to the Security Administration of the

25     Federal Secretariat for National Defence.  Is this the date when you

Page 12017

 1     visited Sremska Mitrovica?

 2        A.   I don't know.  Possibly.

 3        Q.   Is it correctly described in this letter that you came in order

 4     to establish co-operation with the operative team that was questioning

 5     the prisoners?

 6        A.   We thought we had already established that co-operation, and we

 7     already had the approval of the higher command.  That's why we came.  In

 8     fact, I came in order to stop that co-operation.

 9        Q.   You are also mentioned in this letter.  It is said that you had

10     visited SV, in fact, the sports hall Pinki, with some delegation.  Did

11     you go to this sports centre, Pinki, and did you meet some JNA officers

12     there?

13        A.   I suppose it's the sports centre Pinki which is not in Belgrade.

14     The only sports centre called Pinki is the one I know in Belgrade.  I

15     don't know about this one.

16        Q.   Did you perhaps go to the sports centre Pinki in Belgrade for the

17     purpose described in this letter?

18        A.   No.  Of course, I went there for sports events.

19        Q.   It says in this letter that before coming here, you had tried to

20     get into the prison and you were not allowed to.  Did you, indeed, go to

21     Sremska Mitrovica before and were refused access to the prison?

22        A.   No.  We waited for a permission of the competent authority, and

23     once we received that permission, we were given access to the prison

24     without any further problem.

25        Q.   Did you perhaps come earlier without a permit and denied access?

Page 12018

 1        A.   Why would we have done that?  We knew we had to have a permit.

 2        Q.   In that discussion, did you mention that they were letting

 3     Ustashas go?

 4        A.   In this particular discussion, we did not talk about that.

 5        Q.   Before you went to the prison, did you also go to the Red Cross

 6     in Sremska Mitrovica?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did you know that there would be an exchange of about 900 persons

 9     that day?

10        A.   I didn't know about the extent and the pace of the exchanges

11     conducted by the Yugoslav People's Army.

12        Q.   And in conversations at the time, did you or anyone else mention

13     Dr. Vesna Bosanac?

14        A.   I don't know Dr. Vesna Bosanac.  And I don't think that she was

15     on the list that our investigative organs were taking to the KPD

16     Mitrovica.  They did have a list of some 20 to 30 persons.  I don't know

17     in which context I would have mentioned her.

18        Q.   Could you be a little bit more precise about those on the list,

19     the 30 -- the 20 or 30 persons.

20        A.   Those were persons suspected of committing a number of serious

21     crimes, including elements of war crimes in Vukovar and its environs in

22     1990 and 1991.  This is something that the victims and witnesses talked

23     about, and this was raw material that needed to be corroborated in the

24     investigation.

25        Q.   Did you mention Saljic in this conversation?

Page 12019

 1        A.   No I did not.  I do know Judge Saljic.  He himself had a lot of

 2     remarks as a military investigating judge about the proceedings in

 3     Mitrovica.  He wasn't even allowed to do his job.  But I did not say

 4     anything about Judge Saljic.  They perhaps just concluded that we were on

 5     the same side.

 6        Q.   Could you please tell me when you found out that Judge Saljic had

 7     similar problems.  Was it at the time when you went to Mitrovica or some

 8     other time?

 9        A.   It was at a different time.  I met him in Vukovar in

10     Milos Vojnovic's office, and he told me that.  We didn't really get on so

11     well, but that he also as a military investigating judge had to abandon

12     the project.

13        Q.   When you were in Mitrovica at that time, did you or anyone else

14     from your group blame General Aleksandar Vasiljevic for anything?

15        A.   I don't know General Aleksandar Vasiljevic.  I don't know

16     anything about his work, and I don't blame him for anything.

17        Q.   Was there an ultimatum by you or the government that nobody could

18     be released from the Sremska Mitrovica KPD without your permission, the

19     permission of the SBWS?

20        A.   But that would mean that if they failed to respect that, that we

21     would attack Serbia, because this was located in Serbia.  No, we

22     definitely did not issue an ultimatum to anyone.

23        Q.   It says here that you toured three prison rooms at that time; is

24     that correct?

25        A.   I mentioned the one that we visited.  There was no other second

Page 12020

 1     or third room, no.

 2        Q.   Did you ask for lists of prisoners?

 3        A.   I did not, but the investigating judge -- judges that were

 4     working in the KPD did.

 5        Q.   Just to clarify, were those lists requested during this visit or

 6     was this done at some other time?

 7        A.   No, no, I never asked for the list.  But I do know that the

 8     investigating judges, when they entered and started their work in the

 9     KPD, did ask for the lists in order to be able to see who was on them,

10     who these people were.

11        Q.   And did they get these lists?

12        A.   Yes, but with not all the information.  There was never a

13     definitive list as to how many people there were and which ones were no

14     longer on the list and why not.

15        Q.   And did you say anything to the effect that the prisoners there

16     were too comfortable, that the accommodation was too good, and that it

17     shouldn't be like that?

18        A.   The accommodation was very poor.  There could be no worse

19     conditions, unless they kept outside without any roof over their heads.

20     No, of course I did not make any comments about that.

21        Q.   And did anybody from your group say anything to that effect?  I'm

22     thinking of you who were all there together on the 10th of December.

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you object because the prisoners were smoking?

25        A.   No, I would never object to anything like that.

Page 12021

 1        Q.   Just to clarify, when I say "you," I don't mean just you

 2     personally.  I mean the entire group.

 3        A.   No, nobody said anything about that.  The people were unwashed,

 4     they were neglected.

 5        Q.   And the prison authorities, on the 10th of December, did they --

 6     said that you had to co-ordinate sending of a team with

 7     General Vasiljevic?

 8        A.   No, no, he was not responsible for that.

 9        Q.   And did you and the group that was there on that visit mention

10     Colonel Papic?

11        A.   No, we did not.

12        Q.   And on the 10th of December, 1991, this meeting in

13     Sremska Mitrovica, was it attended by General Vasiljevic?

14        A.   I never had the honour of ever personally meeting

15     General Vasiljevic.

16        Q.   Did you know his deputy, Colonel -- or, actually, do you know who

17     his deputy was?

18        A.   No.  I did not meet either of them.  Whoever that was, they would

19     have probably introduced themselves to me as such, but nobody ever

20     introduced themselves to me as General Vasiljevic's deputy.

21        Q.   Did you ever hear of the name --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the name.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And was he there?

Page 12022

 1        A.   No, he was not.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic --

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The interpreters did not catch the name of the

 5     person you mentioned in your question.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I asked about the name Tumanov.  I am repeating it.

 8        A.   Yes, I have heard of that last name.  I know that there was a

 9     general, maybe he was a colonel, but I believe that he was a general.  I

10     never met him, no.

11        Q.   Did you ask that the prisoners be handed over to you?  Did you

12     ask that the prisoners from Sremska Mitrovica be handed over to you, the

13     government of the Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

14        A.   I never at any place asked for the prisoners of war to be handed

15     over to me because I was not responsible for taking care of prisoners of

16     war.  Exclusively, in accordance with the law, that was something that

17     was the responsibility of the Yugoslav People's Army.  I knew what my

18     duties and responsibilities were, and I also knew what their duties and

19     rights and responsibilities were.

20        Q.   I'm just going to repeat.  Yes, I understand that you personally

21     didn't ask for that.  Did anybody from the group ask for that, Hadzic,

22     Bogunovic, or anyone else who was with you there at that time?

23        A.   Had they asked for that, I would have had the right and I would

24     have used that right to warn them that these were the rights that were

25     not ours, that we could not exercise these rights.

Page 12023

 1        Q.   On that occasion, were there any threats with weapons?  Did any

 2     one of you threaten to use weapons if these demands of yours were not

 3     fulfilled?

 4        A.   No, nobody made any threats with weapons.

 5        Q.   And did you accuse General Vasiljevic of releasing prisoners

 6     without consulting you, meaning you personally and the government of

 7     SBWS?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I didn't know why the prisoners were being

 9     released.  I didn't know whose fault that was, if it was anybody's fault.

10     And then I didn't know that General Vasiljevic was behind that either.

11        Q.   And did any of you invite General Vasiljevic to lunch?

12        A.   Had he been there, perhaps we would have invited him.  I believe

13     that I would not have gone to that lunch, but as he wasn't there, we

14     couldn't have invited him in the first place.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last

16     page of this document.

17        Q.   The document is signed by Colonel Jugoslav Maksimovic.  Do you

18     know that name?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   And are you able to tell us whether, after this meeting on the

21     10th of December, if you went to lunch to any of these officers [as

22     interpreted]?

23        A.   No, I did not go to lunch to -- with any of these officers.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I see the time, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 12024

 1             The time for the second break; 30 minutes as well.  We will be

 2     back at 12.45.

 3             Court adjourned.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             May we see, please, tab 583.  It is document 3028 from the

11     Prosecution Rule 65 ter list.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Susa, do you know the person who is at the

13     right side of the photograph, this adult shown?

14        A.   This is a member of the Yugoslav People's Army, from what I can

15     see, and this is Colonel Bogdan Vujic.  Yes, it is him, definitely.

16        Q.   And did you notice him perhaps at the meeting in Velepromet?

17        A.   No, he was not at the meeting in Velepromet.

18        Q.   Did you see him perhaps in the Velepromet yard?

19        A.   I met Mr. Bogdan Vujic, without his cap, in the Sremska Mitrovica

20     KP Dom.

21        Q.   You mentioned that Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic introduced himself

22     as the commander of the city at the meeting in Velepromet, and he told

23     you about the imposition of the military rule.  Are you able to tell us

24     what the situation was, if you know, regarding the authority of the army

25     in areas where combat had finished in areas captured by the JNA?

Page 12025

 1        A.   Regardless of the fact whether the combat was over or not, the

 2     decision of the Presidency of the SFRY applied about the conduct of the

 3     army during imminent danger of war.  In all those territories, the army

 4     had the absolute right to act on military and civilian matters.  This was

 5     not in dispute.  All we were required to do was to offer them

 6     co-operation in -- in the civilian sphere.

 7        Q.   Are you able to tell us until when the military rule was in force

 8     in SBWS?

 9        A.   If I'm not mistaken, this was sometime until May or June 1992.

10     Or, more specifically, after the new Yugoslavia was formed and after the

11     adoption of the constitution in Zabljak, when Serbia and Montenegro

12     decided to create the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Do you know whether the military authorities were trying to

14     establish some co-operation with civilian authorities, or did they try to

15     establish civilian authorities, or did they have any arrangements with

16     the government of SBWS?

17        A.   They paid lip service to this, but they didn't actually do

18     anything.  They only addressed us when the problems grew to such an

19     extent that they couldn't control them anymore.  In every military

20     structure, there was a contact person, a point man, for dealing with

21     civilian issues, but even that officer didn't find it necessary to

22     consult us in many things.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender the document from

24     the screen into evidence.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

Page 12026

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3028 receives number D220, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, D19.  It is tab 634.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an order.  It's not legible.  Rather,

 5     the date is not legible.  However, we believe that it was sent on the

 6     20th of November.  I wanted to ask you about a few things in this

 7     document, inviting your comments.

 8             You will see that under bullet point 2, the longest part says

 9     that work -- that the command has to work to establish civilian

10     authorities in municipalities.  According to the decision of the Assembly

11     of the Serbian District of Baranja, Eastern Slavonia and Western Srem,

12     the municipalities are Beli Manastir, Vukovar, Dalj, Vinkovci, with its

13     seat in Mirkovci and Osijek with its seat in Tenja.

14             On the 20th of November, was there a decision, as it says here,

15     issued by the Assembly of the Serbian District of Baranja, Eastern

16     Slavonia, and Western Srem determining and defining the municipalities as

17     listed here?

18        A.   The Great National Assembly made that decision subsequently, not

19     in the form of decision because these issues are not resolved by issuing

20     any decisions.  This should be the Law on Territorial Organisation.  I

21     worked on that.  It's not a decision, and in any case, that was passed

22     after the 20th of November, 1991.

23        Q.   Although you have already referred to this law, let me ask you

24     once again.  Before the passing of that law, was there a decision of that

25     kind?  Did this decision pre-exist the law?

Page 12027

 1        A.   No.  There's no decision that could be made on those issues.

 2        Q.   Let's look at paragraph 4 in this decision.  It says here:

 3             "The established organs of authority are defined as the organs of

 4     authority that were established after the place was liberated under the

 5     leadership of organs of authority of the SO of Baranja, Eastern

 6     Slavonija, and Western Srem."

 7             Is it true that this sentence was applied as of the

 8     20th November onwards?

 9        A.   It was only after the Law on Territorial Organisation came into

10     effect.  It defined the municipalities and its seats very precisely.  We

11     were the ones who appointed presence of Executive Councils, and then in

12     their turn, they proposed their associates in consultations with the

13     locals.

14             When it comes to the Town Command and whether they're going to

15     meddle with this, I believe that this decision is very self-explanatory.

16     They very often meddled in political issues.

17        Q.   When it comes to the local bodies of authority besides appointing

18     presence of Executive Councils, did the local bodies of authority become

19     appointed by the government or somebody else?  Who appointed them?

20        A.   Well, they were nominated by the government.  Or, rather, in the

21     hierarchy, there's the government, the municipalities, the local

22     communes, and it would be the councils of the municipalities that

23     appointed bodies at the lowest levels.

24        Q.   That would be following the rules and regulations, but I'm not

25     asking you about rules and regulations.  I was probably not very precise

Page 12028

 1     in my question.  What I wanted to ask you was whether you know how things

 2     were done in practice.  Who was it who appointed those people in local

 3     communes and in the local bodies of authority?  I'm talking about the

 4     practical part, not what it said in the decision about the Executive

 5     Councils.

 6        A.   My answer can't be simple because things were not approached

 7     everywhere in the same way.

 8             Let's start with Ilok.  There was a drastic situation there.

 9     Military administration was introduced and the Town Command decided who

10     directors would be, who members of the local communes would be.  It also

11     defined the composition of the police bodies, everything.  Ilok comprises

12     several villages such as Opatovac, Mohovo, and Sarengrad, and things were

13     done in the same way on -- in these villages.  In some other places like,

14     for example, Mirkovci, where the local authorities [Realtime transcript

15     read in error "military"] had been more powerful from before, they

16     resisted those change-overs that the army sometimes insisted on and the

17     situation was pretty much status quo.

18        Q.   At the bottom of this decision, it says that the seat of the

19     government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is in Dalj.  Was the

20     seat of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem in Dalj on

21     28 November 1991?

22        A.   The seat was never in Dalj.  It was always in Erdut.

23        Q.   It says here at the very bottom in the last sentence of this

24     decision that Srbobran Bibic is the government commissioner for Vukovar.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Olmsted.

Page 12029

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             In answer before the last one, it's recorded in the transcript:

 3     In some other places like, for example, Mirkovci where the military had

 4     been more powerful from before, they resisted ..."

 5             I believe the witness said "where the local authorities" or the

 6     civilian authorities.  I don't think he said that the military had been

 7     more powerful than before they resisted changes.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter confirms.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that's on the record now.  Thank you,

11     Mr. Olmsted.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Let me just --

13        Q.   My question was about Srbobran Bibic whose mentioned in the last

14     sentence.  Was Srbobran Bibic the government commissioner for Vukovar?

15     Did the government appoint Srbobran Bibic as its commissioner for Vukovar

16     at that time?

17        A.   Srbobran Bibic, also known as Rajko Bibic, ten or 15 days after

18     the date indicated in here - and this confuses me somewhat - was

19     appointed as the president of the Executive Council of Vukovar

20     municipality by the government, not as its commissioner, as far as I

21     know, and I'm almost sure that I am correct.

22        Q.   Mr. Susa, could you please tell us something about the

23     Vance Plan.  What was the position of the government and the population

24     in general in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem towards this proposal?

25        A.   The proposal of the Vance Plan did not meet the support of the

Page 12030

 1     people in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem because of the way it

 2     envisaged the deployment of peacekeeping forces.  People demanded from us

 3     to try and to affirm the idea that, according to the Vance Plan, somewhat

 4     altered, the peacekeeping forces of the United Nations should be deployed

 5     between the two warring parties.  That proposal did not take off the

 6     ground.

 7        Q.   Did you participate in some debates and discussions surrounding

 8     the adoption of the Vance Plan?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  I participated in the work of a large gathering

10     which was chaired by the people from the Presidency of the SFRY.  I was

11     there on day one.  I believe that its work extended to the next day, when

12     I was not present.  However, I took the floor on the first day and my

13     contribution was to oppose the deployment of UN peacekeepers in the depth

14     of our territory.  Unfortunately, I was right.  My discussion was very --

15     in that sense, very good.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't believe that the witness said the last

17     sentence in his answer.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please ask the witness to repeat the last

19     sentence.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let me tell you, it was recorded that you said, as your last

22     sentence --

23        A.   My last sentence was:  Unfortunately, I was right.

24        Q.   However, you were recorded as saying:

25             [In English] "My discussion was very -- in that sense, very

Page 12031

 1     good."

 2             [No interpretation]

 3        A.   My discussion at the session?

 4        Q.   In your answer did you say -- listen carefully, I'm going to

 5     repeat in English.  I'm going to read this back to you.  You said,

 6     allegedly:  [In English] "My discussion was very -- in that sense, very

 7     good."

 8             [Interpretation] Did you indeed say that?

 9        A.   I did say that.  My discussion at the Presidency session was very

10     correct in view of the fact of what happened later.

11        Q.   So this was a misunderstanding.

12             Why did you want the peacekeepers to be deployed on the

13     separation line?  Why did everybody want that?

14        A.   Because that was the only and safe guarantee that there would be

15     no more conflicts between the warring parties.  They would act as a

16     buffer zone, and the United Nations troops would be able to exert

17     authority on the separation line and act as a buffer zone.

18        Q.   Since that was your position, what was the position of Yugoslav

19     authorities?

20        A.   Their position was different from mine.  They said that there

21     could be no longer any delays in establishing peace in the war-affected

22     areas.  Nearly all representatives of the Presidency of the Socialist

23     Federative Republic of Yugoslavia spoke words to that effect.  And as the

24     debate went on and as our people heard their reasons, they moved to the

25     side of the Presidency members and the idea that the Vance Plan should be

Page 12032

 1     adopted and applied at all cost.

 2        Q.   Were you told what could happen if the Croatian forces violated

 3     the cease-fire and entered the protected area?

 4        A.   There were serious guarantees from the people from the Presidency

 5     that we -- that any sort -- any kind of assistance would be forthcoming

 6     and that we would be guaranteed protection, if any such thing would

 7     happen.

 8        Q.   On that occasion, did you also discuss the regulations that would

 9     be implemented in the area where UN peacekeepers would be deployed?

10        A.   I believe that my question at that Presidency session was to that

11     effect.  We were told that there would be a transition period and that

12     the regulations in effect at that time would continue to be in effect

13     during that transition period.

14        Q.   You have just mentioned Ilok in one of your answers.  I would

15     like to ask you whether the government had any contacts with Ilok after

16     October 1991, when a large number of Croats moved out from that town and

17     from that general area.

18        A.   For several months after the departure of a large number of

19     Croats, and they were mostly people who were able-bodied and could be

20     considered military conscripts, we didn't have any contacts with the

21     military administration in Ilok.  That contact was established after the

22     arrival of a large number of displaced persons from Western Slavonia to a

23     place across the Danube from Ilok, and that is Backa Palanka.

24        Q.   Did you receive any reports or information, either from military

25     authorities or any other official information, as to what was going on in

Page 12033

 1     Ilok during the relevant period of time, i.e., from the moment the

 2     Croatian population moved out until some months later?

 3        A.   We had inofficial [as interpreted] information which proved to be

 4     very correct at the end of the day.  The military is in charge of

 5     every -- everything in that area.  They were involved in military issues

 6     as well as in all segments of civilian life.

 7        Q.   Did you officially request from the military authorities in Ilok

 8     to provide you with some information about the situation over there?

 9        A.   Yes.  The government put me and Mr. Vojnovic in charge, as well

10     as Mr. Boro Bogunovic, of establishing contact with the military

11     authorities in Ilok.  I went to talk to the town commander,

12     Colonel Belic.  I explained to him why I was there, and I told him that

13     we wanted to establish full co-operation because we had common problems.

14     One of them was a large number of refugees who wanted to move into the

15     territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Mr. Belic did not show

16     any understanding for the reasons mentioned by myself, and I returned to

17     Erdut.  I told Mr. Goran Hadzic about the reception I had met and then he

18     wrote an official letter to Mr. Belic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up

20     D30, tab 635.

21        Q.   Could you please look at this letter and tell us if that is the

22     letter you mentioned a moment ago.

23        A.   This is just a part of this letter.  There is a continuation.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We can move to the next page.  I

25     believe there's one more page in English.  I think it ends on page 4.

Page 12034

 1     [In English] Yes.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] It is stated in this letter that the government

 3     does not know under what circumstances the military rule was imposed.

 4     What did they mean by that?

 5        A.   The circumstances under which this military rule is operating in

 6     Ilok for so long are unclear.  The town commander was unable to prove

 7     with a single document his position in town.  It was unclear who

 8     appointed him to that position in the first place.  We didn't even know

 9     if he was a counterpart from the other side whom we should address in

10     dealing with these problems, and my first conversation with him was, in

11     fact, an attempt to get some kind of information, to inquire.  But in

12     this conversation, he was very arrogant and refused any further contact

13     and rejected the possibility that we would be involved in establishing

14     civilian authorities and restoring normal conditions in SBWS.

15        Q.   In this letter, you asked, among other things, to be able to have

16     an insight into the accounts of businesses and enterprises.

17             Tell me, why did you make this request and was it met?

18        A.   Ilok remained completely intact as a town.  There was absolutely

19     no damage or war devastation.  There were several economic entities in

20     Ilok that had a very successful business.  They never ceased operating.

21     For instance, it was the brick-works Razvitak, the winery Ilok,

22     Agrokomerc, a textile industry called Iteks, and we wanted to inventory

23     their assets.  It was the territory of SBWS, and it was the property of

24     the people who lived there.  But regrettably we had information that

25     turned out to be correct, to the effect that large amounts of property

Page 12035

 1     were being taken to Serbia unlawfully.

 2        Q.   Were you given access to their assets and accounts?

 3        A.   At this stage, no.  Only much later.

 4        Q.   This letter also mentions that JNA was the exclusive overseer of

 5     resettlement in Ilok; is that correct?  Did the government have any part

 6     in it?

 7        A.   As soon as part of the Croatian population left Ilok, the JNA

 8     came in; specifically the units of the Territorial Defence of Vojvodina.

 9     They took possession of several facilities and started to dispose of the

10     remaining buildings under criteria that were never clearly established,

11     but mostly they were bringing just their own friends and family,

12     accommodating them in the town, giving them jobs.  They simply had

13     absolute control over the area and did as they pleased.  They made their

14     own decisions, appointing general managers.  They brought people from

15     Serbia, they made arrangements with them on the further development of

16     the town and further activities.  And throughout that time in Ilok and

17     the surrounding places, Opatovac, Mohovo, Sarengrad, and Sotin, they just

18     moved people in.

19        Q.   The letter mentions that --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours.  I was going to rise earlier.  I

22     just want to check the document.

23             Mr. Zivanovic represented that in this letter the military says

24     that they were the exclusive overseer of resettlement in Ilok.  I don't

25     see that in the letter.  I was wondering if he could just point it to me.

Page 12036

 1     Perhaps I'm missing it.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think it is in -- at previous page of English.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In B/C/S, it's on page 2.

 4     Paragraph 4.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will read out from the

 6     translation on the screen.  This text is underlined:

 7             [In English] "The government has been told that the settling of

 8     Ilok went on rather well and that your command was competent in all

 9     matters.  Naturally we are not bothered by this," et cetera.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, the Prosecution would ask, Your Honours, that

11     in the future, that Defence counsel use the language in the letter.  I

12     think that is open to interpretation what that sentence which was just

13     read means and it's important to put the language to the witness so -- so

14     as not to mislead or lead the witness in a certain direction.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And, Mr. Zivanovic, I still didn't find it on --

16     on the page on the screen.  Could you help -- assist me?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is underlined.  Paragraph, in English, at the

18     screen.  It is -- it begins with:

19             "The government has been told that the settling of Ilok went on

20     rather well ..."

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, I see -- see it now.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] It was also said here that you were not informed

25     of the criteria for resettlement.  When I say "you," I mean the

Page 12037

 1     government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, it is correct.  We were not informed of the criteria, and

 3     the whole truth is that these criteria did not even exist.  We were just

 4     trying to be polite.

 5        Q.   In that period, was the government asked to take any part in this

 6     process of resettlement?  At any stage, did the government -- was the

 7     government asked by the JNA?

 8        A.   No.  On the contrary, everything was done to stop the government

 9     from any participation in the resettlement process.

10        Q.   It is also said in this letter that you do not want to pre-empt

11     any military or political solutions.  What was this a reference to?

12        A.   As you understand, in this situation which involved a large

13     inflow of refugees into Backa Palanka, the Croatian Operation Flash had

14     already happened, and a large number of refugees were heading for

15     Vojvodina in Serbia and other areas, including Slavonia, Baranja, and

16     Western Srem.  While receiving these people, we were not thinking that

17     these people would not have the possibility of returning to their homes

18     in Baranja, Slavonia and other places in the future.

19        Q.   You used the term "Operation Flash."  Are you sure that operation

20     happened at that time?

21        A.   Those people who came from Western Slavonia, they came as a

22     result of military pressure by Croatian authorities.

23        Q.   What kind of status were they supposed to receive when they

24     arrived in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem or, specifically, Ilok?

25     What was the government's idea about their stay there?

Page 12038

 1        A.   Those were temporarily resettled places, accommodated in housing

 2     that they had the right to occupy only temporarily.  That status is very

 3     important, and it was a reflection of our desire to help those people in

 4     those times, in that situation, in the only way we could.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us, was the government looking for some place to

 6     accommodate its own members?  Did it ask for such accommodation from

 7     military authorities?

 8        A.   Yes, we did.  And I'm coming back to the old story and the

 9     eviction of our property from the winery.  This was the first opportunity

10     for two or three ministries to get some offices, and we thought it would

11     be a good idea if they were in Ilok.  From back then until this point, we

12     still operated without any offices.

13        Q.   I will show you one letter that was sent out to the Town Command

14     of Ilok on the same day as this letter.  It's a regular report that the

15     command of Ilok sent on the same day to its superior command.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see P1708.  Tab 657.

17        Q.   May I draw your attention to the tenth paragraph.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In English, it's the next page.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   It reads:

22             "Occupation of empty houses continues in the territory of the

23     command of the town of Ilok's area of responsibility.  Occupation is

24     taking place without the knowledge or approval of the command of the town

25     of Ilok.  The Presidency of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem has

Page 12039

 1     not thus far given an announcement regarding the way and the conditions

 2     of settlement, which places this command into a very complex situation.

 3     At the same time, ethnic Croatian inhabitants are under pressure to leave

 4     this territory."

 5             Do you know whether there was any resettlement in that area that

 6     was not approved by the Town Command of Ilok?

 7        A.   This is a typical conflation frequently used at that time by the

 8     army.  How was it possible that the area of responsibility of these units

 9     of Ilok somebody could enter an area, temporarily resettle there without

10     them knowing?  It's simply incredible.  It runs counter to all their

11     abilities and competences on the ground.  It is was not us who set the

12     criteria for resettlement.  It was them.  They did only things that

13     suited them.  Any involvement on our part would only be a bother for

14     them.  I perfectly understand their reasoning.  I don't understand --

15     approve it but I understand it.

16        Q.   Do you know what kind of an announcement they are referring to in

17     paragraph 10?  What kind of announcement was expected of you?

18        A.   I believe the basis for this report was the letter we just looked

19     at a moment ago.  What the commander is doing here is actually

20     self-defence.  He's putting up his guard against any problem that we

21     might create in the future for them and any issues that we were intending

22     to raise, and it was clear that we were going to blame the Town Command

23     of Ilok.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at P371.  Tab 658.

25     No, I think I made a mistake.  We've seen this before.  Yes, it's

Page 12040

 1     tab 574, and the exhibit is P378.

 2        Q.   This report of 9 December, which means before your letter and

 3     before the other letter we saw a moment ago, was sent by the Town Command

 4     of Ilok to their superior command.  They report about the situation in

 5     the area and the organisation of civilian life.  They say that in Ilok

 6     and the villages enumerated here, including Lovas, no civilian

 7     authorities have been established and there is only one person dealing

 8     with all business in local offices.

 9             To the best of your knowledge, is this correct?

10        A.   Yes, it's completely correct.  It's just that the reasons for

11     this are explained differently by us and the army.  We think this was

12     happening because we were not allowed to get into that area, whereas they

13     pretend that we don't exist and, in fact, they were not giving us any

14     access.

15        Q.   In item 2, it says that in the territory of the Town Command,

16     TO Staffs have not been established and do not exist.

17             To the best of your knowledge, is that true?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In item 3, it says that a police station has been established in

20     Ilok and one of its squads has been detached and posted to the village

21     Lovas and that it was formed by the MUP of Serbia and is now under the

22     authority of the SAO Baranja, Slavonia, Western Srem.  In carrying out

23     its tasks, the police station is subordinated to the command of the town

24     of Ilok.

25             Can you please tell us whether what is stated here is correct?

Page 12041

 1        A.   Precisely as it is written it is correct and it proves the

 2     imbalance of all of their writing.  It is not correct that it was under

 3     our jurisdiction, the police station, and then again they note that it's

 4     subordinated to the Town Command.  So how is it possible that we

 5     established it but we are subordinated to them?  We did not establish it.

 6     Of course not.  They did.

 7        Q.   Well, just one second because there are a number of assertions

 8     here.  Let's look at the text.  It says here that the police station was

 9     formed by the Serbian MUP.

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   But that it is under the authority of Slavonia, Baranja, and

12     Western Srem.  What I'm interested in is whether it's correct that it was

13     formed under the Serbian MUP but it was under your authority?

14        A.   Yes, it was formed by the Serbian MUP.  It's not correct that

15     it's under the authority of the SBWS.  And in carrying out its tasks, the

16     police station is subordinated to the command of the town of Ilok, that

17     is correct.

18        Q.   Can you please tell us, since you said that what is said --

19     stated here is not correct, was the SBWS government consulted at all

20     regarding the police that is referred to in this report?

21        A.   The SBWS government was not consulted in any single activity or

22     specific action by the military authorities in Ilok.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D45,

24     please.  This is tab 654.

25        Q.   This is a request by the Town Command of Ilok, seeking an

Page 12042

 1     explanation about a request of the refugees to settle in Ilok and

 2     settlements within the area of responsibility of the town of Ilok.

 3             It is stated here that there was a large number of abandoned

 4     houses and apartments.

 5        A.   Would you like me to comment what I'm looking at?

 6        Q.   Just one moment.  And that the Town Command is receiving requests

 7     from refugees to settle the abandoned -- to settle in the abandoned

 8     houses.  Instructions are being sought.

 9             Could you please tell us if this accurately reflects the

10     situation at the time.

11        A.   When you put all the information of theirs next to each other and

12     read it, then you can see how they are actually conveying half-truths,

13     but then, after all, you can come to a conclusion -- and this is how they

14     know, after all, that they know who was moving into the abandoned

15     properties.  They were receiving a large number of requests.  Now that

16     the number of requests is too large and they cannot control it anymore,

17     so now they're asking for help.  Before, when they were determining the

18     dynamics, they were able to work on their own and deal with it without

19     any problems.

20        Q.   And these instructions are dated the 28th of November, 1991.

21     What I'm interested in is whether, in that period, did you, as the

22     government, receive any requests for people to settle in Ilok?

23        A.   At the time, no.  Then, we did not receive any single request.

24        Q.   And at the time, did they address you for some kind of

25     consultations or agreements or anything regarding this problem?

Page 12043

 1        A.   They never addressed us unless they were in a difficult situation

 2     or we were very persistent and, thus, forced them to talk to us.

 3        Q.   Could you please tell us if you were informed or if you had

 4     information whether they effectively controlled the territories they were

 5     in possession of?

 6        A.   Yes, of course.  There were many soldiers there, a lot of

 7     equipment.  They had the legal authority to act, but not act badly but

 8     act correctly and properly.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at Exhibit 6038,

10     tab 658 from the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

11        Q.   This is a regular daily report of the 30th of November, 1991,

12     again from the Ilok Town Command.  Could you please look at paragraph 2,

13     where the places that are affected in this territory are referred to.

14             In item 6, the tasks and assignments are referred to from the

15     Ilok Town Commander with the focus on the control of movements, the

16     immediate security of the said places, and the carrying out of tasks

17     relating to the command post.

18             According to what you know, was this correct?

19        A.   Yes, this was correct.  Otherwise, the chief, the

20     lieutenant-colonel, would be subject to disciplinary measures.

21        Q.   Could you please tell me, after you came to Ilok on the

22     23rd of December and later, was the situation the same.  In other words,

23     were the Ilok Town Command units still controlling the movement in their

24     area and directly providing security for the places that are mentioned

25     here?

Page 12044

 1        A.   Yes, that is what they were doing.  They were doing their part of

 2     the job.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document into evidence,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 6038 receives number D221, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   In your testimony, you mentioned, among other things, that the

10     Ilok Town Command appointed directors of certain companies.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D2196.  It is tab 466.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] This is one of the decisions that we found.  Are

13     you able to tell us if you knew that this company, Agrokomerc, had the

14     following director appointed by the Ilok Town Command?

15        A.   Yes, that's a good friend of mine.  He was a good friend then and

16     is still my good friend.  In this way, he was appointed a director.  It

17     wasn't only him.  All the directors of economic companies, kindergartens,

18     the cultural institutions, all of those posts were filled by the

19     commander of the town of Ilok.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2196 receives number D222,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2493.  It is tab 490.

Page 12045

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another decision on a director's

 2     appointment.  This time it's the Razvitak company.  Did you know that

 3     this person was appointed?

 4        A.   Yes, I know Milovan Buha very well, and I met him in Ilok when he

 5     was already the director of this company.

 6        Q.   I see that the document bears the date 30th of January, 1992.

 7     Are you able to tell us approximately how long did the Ilok Town Command

 8     decide on the appointment of directors of commercial enterprises?

 9        A.   I'm afraid that this is linked to certain laws, to the way things

10     functioned, and also it has to do with Colonel --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- because he had a hand in

13     regulating relationships in this way in the town of Ilok.  But already,

14     by the spring of that year, by March, all of this gained a slightly

15     different meaning.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P1683.  It is tab 645.

17             Sorry, I would tender this document from the screen.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think, Mr. Zivanovic, that this document is

19     already in evidence as 14 -- D141, if I'm not wrong.  Admitted on the

20     15th of July, 14.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it is my error in that case.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P1683.  It is tab 645.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another regular daily report from

25     November 1991.  It refers to various activities in the Ilok Town Command

Page 12046

 1     area of responsibility.  I would like to ask you to look at paragraph 7.

 2     It's on the second page of the original.  And, among other things, this

 3     paragraph talks about intensive normative work that is being done on

 4     establishing local commands and ensuring their functioning.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the next page in

 6     the English translation, please, where it says that in the course of

 7     paramilitary units, Dusan Silni Detachment were chased out and parts of

 8     the local TO were placed under a single command of TO commands present in

 9     the area.

10        Q.   What I would like to know is this:  Did the Ilok Town Command

11     have enough forces, effect force, in your estimation, to regulate the

12     conduct, the movement, and generally the presence of paramilitary

13     formations in its territory?

14        A.   Yes, of course it did.  There was a large number of well-armed

15     soldiers that were under their command.  They were at -- they had quite a

16     significant amount of equipment at their disposal.

17        Q.   I will show you one more exhibit for today.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  This is P1709, tab 659.

19        Q.   This is a letter that you wrote to the Ilok Town Command, if you

20     recall.  And in the letter, you talk about the temporary moving in in the

21     territory of Ilok and a meeting is being scheduled.

22             Do you remember this letter?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   I would like to ask you now to look at the attachments to this

25     letter.

Page 12047

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the following

 2     pages of the document.

 3        Q.   There is a list here of the inhabitants, and you can also see in

 4     the following pages that there are also maps attached besides the

 5     handwritten lists.  I think that you looked at these documents.

 6        A.   Yes, I have.

 7        Q.   Could you please tell me, are -- were all the other pages

 8     attached to your letter?  In other words, were you the one who attached

 9     these documents to your letter or not?

10        A.   No, I did not attach the documents.  These documents were drafted

11     by the army.  My letter does not contain the rest of these documents.

12        Q.   In other words, did you attach any other documents, any lists

13     with your letter?

14        A.   No.  Otherwise, I would have stated so and I would have listed

15     the attachments to the letter.  And I think you can also see that there

16     are military stamps on these documents.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic --

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- we should call it a day.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I see the time.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Susa, we expect you to be back tomorrow at 9.00.  You remain

23     a witness and under oath, and I explained yesterday to you what that

24     means in terms of discussing your testimony with other people or having

25     contact with the parties.  Do you remember that?


Page 12048

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  And I am sticking

 2     to that, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 4             Court adjourned.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

 8                           October, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.