Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 434

1 Wednesday, 3 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 The accused may be seated.

11 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution first, please.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, counsel.

13 For the Prosecution, Mr. Daryl Mundis and I, Ekkehard Withopf, and the

14 case manager, Kimberly Fleming.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And the Defence.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

17 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18 Residovic, co-counsel Stephane Bourgon, and Mirna Milanovic, assistant.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

20 Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, with Rodney Dixon and our legal assistant, Nermin

21 Mulalic.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber wishes

23 to bid good morning to the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and the

24 interpreters in the booth.

25 Today we're going to continue with the examination of the witness

Page 435

1 who started to testify yesterday. This examination is envisaged for

2 another 15 minutes, upon which we will proceed with the

3 cross-examination, after which we will have a new witness that will be

4 called. So have the witness brought in, please.

5 Mr. Cvijanovic, you may be seated. I shall give the floor to the

6 Prosecution who will continue the examination of the witness.

7 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.


9 Q. Witness, when we stopped yesterday, you had told us that at some

10 point on 26 January 1993 you were taken to a school. Do you recall

11 testifying that yesterday?

12 A. I'm not getting the interpretation.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

14 THE WITNESS: I can hear it now. Could you repeat your question,

15 please.


17 Q. Witness, when we stopped yesterday, you had told us that at some

18 point on 26 January 1993 you were taken to a school. Do you recall

19 testifying to that yesterday?

20 A. Yes. After the hill, we came to the coffee bar, the billiard

21 room. We waited for everyone to gather, and then we headed towards the

22 school.

23 Q. Witness, can you please tell us the name of the school or the

24 location of the school.

25 A. The school is in Lasva. It used to be called Ivo Lola Ribar

Page 436

1 Elementary School Lasva. That was its name at the time.

2 Q. Approximately what time did you arrive at that school?

3 A. Roughly about 3.30 in the afternoon.

4 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what happened at the

5 elementary school in Lasva after your arrival.

6 A. When we left the coffee bar, there were two soldiers of the BH

7 army. And as we moved, fire was opened. Then we turned back. And then

8 one of them came out, and he had a code in Arabic, and then they stopped

9 shooting. So we headed together with them towards the school. They were

10 offering guarantees to us, as they saw that we were frightened. They

11 said that everything would be all right, in spite of what had happened.

12 They were armed. We all had rifles as well, and we headed straight

13 towards the school. When we reached Velimir Kristo's house - this is

14 very near the school - the police of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

15 were there. I recognised some of my neighbours. Two of them were

16 wearing police uniforms. One was called Rusmir Sisic and the other Halac

17 Nedzad. As we walked, we had to leave our weapons in a pile, whatever we

18 had, as we went towards the school. We were spat upon, abused, cursed,

19 and so on.

20 Once we reached the school, we found some civilians there, our

21 family members, our relatives, fathers, wives, children, parents,

22 et cetera. We were separated so that the women and the children were put

23 in one classroom and we men were taken to another classroom.

24 Q. Witness, can you tell us what happened in the room where the men

25 were taken.

Page 437

1 A. As soon as we arrived, there were some guys there that we didn't

2 know. The only people we knew was Hazim Barucija. He was wearing a

3 military uniform. He was our teacher. He used to be a teacher in the

4 elementary school. He was a reserve officer. I think he had the rank of

5 captain first class. He met us there together with the soldiers whom we

6 did not know, because they weren't from our part of the country.

7 Q. Did there come a time, witness, when anyone else from the army of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina entered the classroom?

9 A. Yes. Before that, while we were there, some soldiers were coming

10 in from their positions. They would enter the classroom. They took off

11 pieces of our clothing and uniforms, whatever they liked, jacket,

12 trousers, shirts. They mistreated us, beat us, and then they'd just

13 leave. We didn't dare say anything. We were forced to look down with

14 our heads bent towards the desks, and this went on until Mr. Serif

15 Patkovic arrived.

16 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened after Serif

17 Patkovic arrived at the Lasva Elementary School.

18 A. Well, this mistreatment went on. At one point in time they would

19 let us go to the toilet or see our family members. I went out to see

20 whether my family was there. When I came back -- when I went there, I

21 saw our women and children and the elderly, who were out of their minds,

22 who were crying. My wife -- no, I'm sorry, Zvonko Rajic's wife and her

23 two daughters came up to me. The little girls were crying, and they

24 hugged me and they asked me, "Where is our daddy?" That is, the younger

25 daughter, Anita, asked me where her daddy was. I couldn't tell her what

Page 438

1 happened. So then I decided when she asked whether her father was alive,

2 and as I kept quiet, she noticed that something was wrong -- before that,

3 they had already been told that he had been killed, and I said also that

4 he had been killed and that he had been left behind on the ground.

5 My mother was there and my father and my brother was with me. I

6 could have stayed there for two or three minutes because the soldier came

7 to fetch us immediately to take us back to the classroom where the men

8 were. Only a couple of us left that classroom, those who had the courage

9 to do so. Then a soldier came in, and he ordered all of us to get up and

10 then a gentleman walked through the door. That was the first time in my

11 life for me to see him close up. He was wearing a black vest. He had a

12 small beard. He was wearing a police uniform, and he was carrying his

13 bag probably and the bag of the late Zvonko, containing documents that

14 Zvonko had about us, with our particulars, his diaries and all those

15 things.

16 He said hello in Arabic, or some words in Arabic, and then he

17 said, "I am Mr. Serif Patkovic." He had come to meet us. "And as I call

18 out your name, will he get up and say yes." Then the gentleman ordered

19 us to sit down.

20 Q. Witness, approximately how long did you remain at the Lasva

21 elementary school that day?

22 A. Well, it was about 3.30. And then in the evening, about 10.30,

23 they took us out of the school. Some were boarded on buses; others went

24 on foot, et cetera.

25 Q. Can you tell us what happened to you as you left the Lasva

Page 439

1 elementary school about 10.30 that day.

2 A. The gentleman came again and said, as he called out a name the

3 person should come out the door. And we were waiting. And as he called

4 people out, they went out the door. When we came out of the school, they

5 have a staircase. There is the school playground. And the school

6 stadium was full of troops, and where there was a football pitch, which

7 was full of troops. And in front of the school was the basketball

8 playground, and again it was full of troops. The soldiers were lined up

9 in two rows, to our left and our right. And as we were coming out, we

10 had to pass through these lines, and they beat us as -- if you fell down

11 you're done for. They would hit you with their rifles. They would kick

12 you with their hands, whatever he could get hold of. And this line was

13 from the school up until the local community building, which was about 50

14 to 100 metres away, I don't know exactly.

15 There were a couple of cars there, and with our heads bent, and

16 our arms behind our heads, with our heads bowed, they were beating us,

17 and then some people were boarded onto the vehicles and others took a

18 shortcut, which was also lined with troops, leading towards the railway

19 station. And they were too beaten as they went towards the station. As

20 for me, one of the soldiers pushed me into some sort of a vehicle, and

21 they beat us and they went along the road.

22 When we reached the station, Lasva station - it is the railway

23 and bus station - buses were lined up there, and, again, there were lots

24 of soldiers, police, many vehicles, et cetera. For a moment the vehicles

25 were stopped there. I was taken off the vehicle. Then I was beaten up

Page 440

1 again. And from the blows I couldn't stand any more. I was lying in the

2 snow. And as a soldier went by, he would kick me or hit me with his

3 rifle. And as I was lying there, in the meantime, those who were going

4 on foot from the school towards the station, as they arrived they were

5 beaten and shoved into buses.

6 I was lying bloodied and beaten up down there, and then a group

7 of soldiers came. They lifted me up and lent me against the bus. Then

8 they started beating me again. Two of them were holding me under the

9 armpits and leaning me against the bus, as I could no longer stand on my

10 own two feet, because I was all beaten up. I couldn't really see. I

11 could only see a little on one eye. My jaws were broken in two places.

12 I had a head fracture, a nose fracture. I could just see a little with

13 my left eye. And the gentleman spoke to me and said if I fell down once

14 again, I would be beaten twice as hard. Of course, as soon as they let

15 go, I would drop to the ground again and they continued mistreating me.

16 They put a knife to my neck, asking where the Herzegovina people were,

17 where our artillery was, all kinds of fabrications. And none of it was

18 true. These were just lies. These people were convinced that we had all

19 those things. I didn't know those men. They were not locals. They were

20 not from our area.

21 Q. Witness --

22 A. And then suddenly --

23 Q. Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt, but due to time constraints I

24 feel I must. Were you then taken to a different location? And if so,

25 where were you taken?

Page 441

1 A. Yes. They continued beating me. And then a gentleman arrived

2 with the police and they started arguing between them. In the meantime,

3 they let me fall again on the snow-covered concrete. And while they

4 argued amongst themselves, one gentleman, I heard him, said, "This is the

5 first and last time that you go with us on an operation and for you to

6 share our booty with us." And while they were quarreling, some soldiers

7 picked me up and shoved me again into a vehicle. And then I started

8 losing consciousness.

9 They drove me for a while. I felt sick. They cursed me. They

10 said that they would roast me, that they would throw me to the fishes,

11 that all the others would be killed, during this short drive. And then I

12 felt the brakes and the vehicle was stopped, the one I was in. The

13 argument started up again. I could no longer see anything. I could only

14 hear, because my eyes were closed. And the argument was between the same

15 troops that were up there - I think they were the police of the army of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina - and the forces of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

17 Q. Witness -- where were you taken or where was the next time you

18 became aware of where you were?

19 A. While they were quarreling, they took me out of the vehicle, and

20 I realised that I was at a crossroads where there was a checkpoint held

21 by the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the crossroads for Sarajevo,

22 Kakanj, Zenica and Busovaca. I fainted then, and I don't remember

23 anything after that. I woke up in prison of the KP Dom in Zenica, the

24 prison in Zenica, and I was lying on a prison cot without a mattress or

25 anything. I think this was maybe two days later or a day or two later; I

Page 442

1 don't know. That is where I woke up. That is what I am conscious of. I

2 was woken up by pain. I was vomiting blood. I was coughing. And that's

3 what brought me to.

4 Q. Witness, did anyone else tell you where you were during the

5 period that you were unconscious?

6 A. Yes. I heard that later. I'm not conscious of it. I was --

7 this was passed on to me. Mr. Bakir Alispahic told me this, when after

8 spending some time in prison, when I was taken for interrogation to make

9 statements and to write statements - we kept doing this throughout the

10 time we were in prison, not just me but all of us - and then Mr. Bakir

11 Alispahic told me that he had taken me from those forces, that he had

12 given me cigarettes, none of which I could remember. But when I came to,

13 the cigarettes were in my pocket, blue Ronhill cigarettes, and the

14 lighter of the police of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I've

15 kept it to this day. I think I have it at home.

16 Q. Witness, did you receive any form of medical treatment for the

17 injuries you received?

18 A. As I was regaining consciousness, I heard conversations on the

19 basis of which I concluded that these were my neighbours and relatives

20 who were there with me. I was in a corner on this cot, and as I turned

21 around, I fell to the ground. They were in another corner. This is an

22 enormous prison room with benches and a couple of these cots. We spent

23 all day there. They were not allowed to come up to me. They didn't know

24 who I was, because I wasn't wearing my uniform. Everything had been

25 taken off me. I only had a T-shirt and my underwear. Around my neck I

Page 443

1 had a chain and on it was my wedding ring. As I fell, I turned around.

2 As I was covered in blood, I couldn't see anything. I couldn't talk. I

3 had two fractures on my jaw, I was vomiting blood, I was urinating blood.

4 There was blood coming through my ears from the blows.

5 And then Dragan Kristo and Velimir Kristo came up to me in the

6 prison. They were standing there wondering whether it was me or not. I

7 could hear them talking, "Is it Zeljko or not?" And then Ivica Filipovic

8 got up and said, "Don't go up to him. You don't know who he is. We can

9 only have problems on that score." My brother was there too, and he

10 didn't recognise me either. And when Velo and Dragan had come up to me,

11 as I had fallen, my chain and wedding ring fell off. They knew me. We

12 were friends, and my brother -- everyone knew I was wearing that. And

13 then they recognised me. Velo swore and said, "My God, it's Zeljko" .

14 Just then the police walked in, the guards who were guarding us,

15 and they started yelling at them. They stopped. Of course, they were

16 terrified. And then this gentleman asked, "Who gave you permission to go

17 up to him?" They said that I was a Chetnik, that -- all kinds of things,

18 that I should be killed, and then they said, "But it's our relative.

19 He's one of us. He fell down."

20 And then a gentleman who was then in command walked in. I think

21 he was from Tetovo. His surname started with an "A." He was an elderly

22 man. I think he was some sort of a chief in the prison then. And I can

23 say in all frankness that he was very fair towards all of us when he was

24 on duty but when he left, all kinds of things happened. He worked during

25 working hours. Then he would go home, after which all kinds of things

Page 444

1 would happen. And then he said to Dragan and Velo Kristo, that they were

2 responsible for me.

3 After that, maybe half an hour later, two soldiers came and took

4 me to the premises where the office was of this -- people -- man who was

5 in charge. Mr. Bakir Alispahic was there. I couldn't see too well, and

6 I was very ill.

7 Q. Witness -- thank you, witness. I'm afraid we're out of time.

8 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions for the

9 witness at this time.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] I

11 now give the floor to counsel for the Defence for the cross-examination.

12 Let me add that it's now 9.30. We will have a -- the break, as

13 usual, as 10.30.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. May I

15 begin?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may.

17 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Cvijanovic.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. I am Edina Residovic and I am Defence counsel for

21 General Hadzihasanovic. Before I start my cross-examination, I should

22 like, with the Court's indulgence, to caution you and to say that the two

23 of us speak the same language, so we could go ahead quickly and ask

24 questions and give answers very rapidly. However, we have the

25 interpreters to consider, because our cross-examination has to be

Page 445

1 interpreted for people in the courtroom and for the benefit of the

2 public. So I should like to ask you to make pauses between my question

3 and your answer and listen through your headset to hears whether the

4 interpretation has been finished. That will facilitate understanding for

5 one and all in the courtroom. Have you understood?

6 A. Yes. Thank you.

7 Q. Very well. I'm going to start off by asking you some general

8 questions. Yesterday you spoke about the geographical position of Lasva

9 and the surrounding villages and hamlets; that's right, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The village of Dusina, Lasva, Donja Visnjica, Brdo, and the

12 hamlets of Rajici are all villages and hamlets which belong to the local

13 commune of Lasva; that's right, isn't it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The local commune of Lasva belonged to the Zenica municipality,

16 and it was the last local commune as you go towards the Busovaca

17 municipality.

18 A. Yes, and towards Kakanj too.

19 Q. Many of the inhabitants of the Lasva local commune - that is to

20 say, all the villages taken together - went to secondary schools and

21 other schools in Zenica and many inhabitants actually worked in Zenica,

22 didn't they?

23 A. Yes, because Zenica was a rather large town and industrial centre

24 and people found a livelihood there, so it was normal for them to go to

25 work there because it was a nearby big town. Yes; that would be correct.

Page 446

1 Q. The village of Lasva itself and the hamlet of Rajici next to

2 Lasva were in a valley bordering the River Bosna; is that right?

3 A. Yes, and that's where my family house was, my family, and I lived

4 there ever since I was born.

5 Q. The other village, Donja Visnjica, Brdo, the hamlet of Kegelj,

6 they were all high up on the hills, the slopes of the hills; is that

7 right?

8 A. Donja Visnjica became a part of the village of Rajici and it was

9 a whole; whereas Dusina and Brdo were separate ask they were several

10 kilometres away from Donja Visnjica and the village of Rajici.

11 Q. And you could get to those villages by climbing up the mountain;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yesterday you said that from the village of Dusina to Lasva the

15 distance was about 3 kilometres.

16 A. Yes, that's roughly it, if you take a round-about road, the road

17 that existed then and still exists today.

18 Q. And from Lasva and the hamlet of Rajici, which is where your

19 house is, up to the hamlet of Brdo, that's about 1 and a half kilometres;

20 that's right, isn't it?

21 A. Well, if you take the round-about road, if -- if you take the

22 road, yes, but if you take a shortcut, then it's closer, and it would be

23 approximately a kilometre. So that is going from my -- through my

24 village, there's Donja Visnjica, there's a stream that cuts across this

25 area and separates us. That was the Croatian inhabitants with just a few

Page 447

1 Muslim houses there. Now, behind those homesteads was a large rock and

2 there was a relay station up there on the cliff and this was right

3 underneath. It was called Donja Visnjica, and that's what we called Brdo

4 up there, Vranjaca Brdo. That was the elevation.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, to get an overall picture of the local commune

6 of Lasva itself and to project this image to all the participants in the

7 courtroom and for me to be able to continue with my questioning, I'm

8 going to show you a videotape taken from a helicopter. So I should like

9 to ask you to tell us whether we can recognise the place.

10 May we have the tape played, please.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, can you recognise the footage that we're showing

14 now?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. [No interpretation]

17 A. Yes. This is Lasva. And before that, we saw Dusina, not Lasva.

18 This is Lasva.

19 Q. Yes. But the local commune, I mean.

20 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. So we saw the village of Dusina, Brdo, and finally Lasva, towards

22 the end, with the Lasva flowing into the Bosna River.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of the fact

24 that the witness has recognised and identified the area, I should like to

25 tender it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

Page 448

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number will be DH1.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. So on the tape, we saw the general configuration of the land, the

5 lie of the land, in which the villages and hamlets were located of the

6 Lasva local commune; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And I am sure you'll agree with me when I say that from Brdo or

9 from the hill, you can't see the Kegelj hamlet because between them

10 there's another small hill.

11 A. No, I can't agree with that, because you can see some houses, two

12 Serb houses, in fact, belonging to the Kalajdzics, Simo Kalajdzic and

13 Djordje Kalajdzic. So those are the first two houses. And behind them

14 you can see Kegelj Jure's house. There were three Kegelj brothers, in

15 fact, Jozo, Jure, and Stipo.

16 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, let's move on to another area that

17 you testified about yesterday. You stated that from 1992 you were a

18 member of the HVO; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you belonged to an HVO unit which was located in Lasva; is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your unit did not belong to the HVO brigade called Jure

24 Francetic, which had it headquarters in Zenica, although Lasva was in the

25 Zenica municipality; isn't that right?

Page 449

1 A. No, it did not belong to that. It belonged to another brigade

2 from Busovaca, and it was called Nikola Subic Zrinski, that's the brigade

3 it belonged to. And all the support to the people during those events

4 was lent by people from Busovaca, not those from Zenica.

5 Q. Is it true that your unit at no point in time from 1992 until the

6 end of the conflict with the HVO was never subordinated to the army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the Territorial Defence?

8 A. No. Because it was the Croatian Defence Council and was a

9 platoon which was attached to Busovaca, so it was a regular army, one or

10 the other. And we, as military-able men, were able -- each citizen was

11 able to choose which army he would join, whether the BH army or the HVO

12 army, because they were the two legal army that is existed there at that

13 time.

14 Q. So you will agree that the HVO had its own chain of command.

15 Your command was in Busovaca and the Main Staff was in Grude; is that

16 right?

17 A. Well, my immediate superior was Zvonko Rajic, and the main

18 command was at Busovaca. Now, who was in command there, I really can't

19 say. I am an ordinary soldier, rank and file, and I can't know the

20 answer to that question. So for me that's something that I don't know.

21 All I can say is this, and I stand by it: That we were there and that we

22 received orders from Busovaca. And I stand by that.

23 Q. You said yesterday that there was a deterioration in relations

24 with the BH army at the beginning of 1993; is that right?

25 A. Well, at the beginning of 1992, I would say, there was some lack

Page 450

1 of understanding and tensions raised. 1993 was the culmination of all

2 this, when a war conflict broke out.

3 Q. I'm sure you know that on the 15th of January, by the top

4 leadership of the HVO, an order was issued for combat readiness for the

5 HVO units and that this should be raised to the top level combat

6 readiness; is that right?

7 A. No. I was not aware of that. Or in fact of that. Perhaps.

8 Perhaps my superior who was there knew about that, but as I say, as an

9 ordinary soldier I couldn't have known about that.

10 Q. Well, you know that it was ordered that all Muslims in units that

11 did not respect HVO orders should be disarmed.

12 A. No, madam, that's wrong. That's a mistake. It was the other way

13 round. All the Croats and the Serbs who were in that area received

14 orders to be disarmed and -- quite simply, that they should be disarmed.

15 And they did not recognise it as a legal army. And this can be borne out

16 and confirmed by my brother, who was Miroslav Rajic. I hope you have him

17 in your books. And from the very first day - he's a cousin living in

18 Rajic too - and from the very first day, he joined up with the BH army,

19 when we joined up with the HVO. And ultimately he was disarmed. And

20 even if he was a BH army member and was not involved in anything when

21 these things were taking place, but he was taken off to prison just like

22 the rest of us.

23 Q. Thank you for that detailed explanation. However, I should like

24 to ask you, Mr. Cvijanovic, in future to answer my questions with a

25 yes-or-no answer. That will be sufficient, of course, if that is

Page 451

1 possible. But I'm sure you are aware of this, that an order was issued

2 to all forces in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone to shut off all

3 directions and access from Zenica and place them under the control of the

4 operative zone. Is that something you are aware of?

5 A. No. I know nothing about that.

6 Q. The order also included an order that all Muslim transports with

7 equipment and weapons should be seized and placed at the disposal of the

8 HVO; isn't that right?

9 A. I don't know about that either, whether an order of that kind

10 existed. As I said before, I'm just an ordinary soldier.

11 Q. I should like to ask you, in order to remind you of this order,

12 to have the order by the Main Staff of the HVO, dated the 15th of

13 January, 1993, shown to you. And we have supplied sufficient copies of

14 that order for all parties in the court, pursuant to the Court's

15 instructions. Unfortunately, it hasn't been interpreted or translated

16 into any of the working languages of the Tribunal.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would the Prosecution like to

18 say something at this point?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would object on the

20 grounds that the witness has repeatedly said he knows nothing of this and

21 there's not a proper foundation for the witness to be shown this document

22 at this point in time.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With respect to this objection,

25 the witness taking note of the document, can he tell us whether he has

Page 452

1 seen it before or had knowledge of this document?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the first time I see

3 this document.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the Defence give us --

5 tell us more about the document and where it comes from, in view of the

6 fact that the witness has never seen or heard of it.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The document contains an order by

8 the Main Staff, the headquarters of the Croatian Defence Council. It is

9 dated the 15th of January, 1993 and demands full combat readiness of all

10 HVO units, especially with respect to the forces of the BH army or,

11 rather, the Muslim forces and gives an overall picture of the causes of

12 the conflicts that ensued in the Lasva area. In view of the fact that we

13 would like -- we cannot through this witness ascertain the authenticity

14 of this document, I propose, Your Honours, that for the moment we just

15 identify the document as being a Defence document so that later on, as a

16 relevant document, relevant to the Defence, we could use it. Could the

17 document please be marked for identification.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, at this point the Prosecution would

20 have to reserve its position. This is the first time we have seen this

21 document, and it is not in one of the official working languages of the

22 Tribunal. So at this point the Prosecution is unable to take any

23 position with respect to this document, so we would respectfully reserve

24 our rights with respect to this document.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall then mark

Page 453

1 the document for identification and we will see how -- what status to

2 give it ultimately.

3 I should like to ask the Defence in future that when it produces

4 a document to have it translated, if that is possible, at least in

5 English, to allow the Prosecution to look through it.

6 Having said that - and can we have it marked for identification

7 from the registrar now.

8 THE REGISTRAR: The number for this document will be DH2 ID.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please continue.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have understood

11 your instructions; however, we have this problem of translation for

12 documents for the cross-examination, which we discussed, and I don't

13 think this is the opportune moment for me to go into that. We shall do

14 our best to ensure that the documents are translated for the

15 cross-examination, but, quite simply, all the documents have been

16 returned to us from the Dusina case by the registrar. Thank you.

17 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, I should now like to ask you to continue our

18 conversation. You said that at the beginning of 1993 open conflicts

19 broke out; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After the 15th of January, the situation in Busovaca deteriorated

22 dramatically and an armed conflict took place; is that right?

23 A. I don't understand the question. What do you want me to answer?

24 Q. What I'm asking you is this: Is it true and correct that after

25 the 15th of January the situation in the municipality of Busovaca changed

Page 454

1 and open conflicts broke out between the HVO and the Bosnian army --

2 Muslim army?

3 A. Not after the 15th of January. There was increased tension, and

4 that was quite obvious. The Muslim population began to group itself and

5 separate itself; so did the Croatian population. There was tension, but

6 there weren't any operations until the 23rd or 24th of January of that

7 same year, 1993.

8 Q. The population of Lasva knew full well about the conflicts in

9 Busovaca because a large number of refugees from that area passed through

10 the villages and hamlets of Lasva, of the Lasva river valley; isn't that

11 right?

12 A. I said there was no conflict up until then. Yes, there were

13 certain small -- minor incidents, and those incidents for the most part

14 occurred because there was tension, there was provocation, minor details

15 of that kind. There was some shooting, and that instilled fear on both

16 sides.

17 Q. Is it true and correct that this tension spread to Lasva and the

18 villages in Lasva?

19 A. The tensions in the Lasva river valley, its villages and hamlets,

20 began far before that. It was in the summer of 1992, when the Serb

21 population was expulsed and mistreated, expelled from the area, because

22 they came to ask protection from the Croatian Defence Council and we gave

23 them that protection, so that tensions grew straight away as a result of

24 that. So that started long before the Busovaca affair.

25 Q. Yesterday you said that it was in Busovaca that the conflicts

Page 455

1 broke out. Is it true that what you meant at the time was the open armed

2 conflict on the night between the 20th and 21st -- in the night between

3 the 20th and 21st of January, 1993 and you could hear it all going on?

4 Explosions could be heard very well both in Dusina and other hamlets of

5 the Lasva river valley?

6 A. Would you repeat the question slowly and what response you expect

7 from me.

8 Q. What I'm asking you is this: Did you state yesterday that in

9 Busovaca there was an open conflict that took place -- and now I'm

10 suggesting the following to you -- that that conflict and the fighting

11 that went on could be heard loud and clear because of the explosions that

12 took place there, both in Dusina and in other areas of Lasva?

13 A. Yes, I did say that explosions were heard, but not at Dusina.

14 There was no shooting at Dusina, madam. Dusina is Lasva. Yes, there was

15 shooting in Busovaca, where you could hear explosions. And all of us -

16 of course, the locals - a local who was there and who was neutral - we

17 were in our houses and everything was quiet - but large numbers of BH

18 army members, soldiers, were coming in because they were taking up their

19 positions along Kula, Sudine, Lugovi, and so on, Merdani. They were

20 passing that way through Dusina.

21 Q. Of the refugees coming from Busovaca and the surrounding

22 villages, you learnt that several hundred Bosniaks were taken to the

23 Kaonik camp; is that right?

24 A. No, that is not right. While we were in Lasva ourselves, not a

25 single refugee came to Lasva nor did we know anything about it, in actual

Page 456

1 fact.

2 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, your unit held a point -- checkpoint in Lasva.

3 A. No, it did not hold a checkpoint in Lasva. It manned a

4 checkpoint in the canyon with Busovaca forces. It is at the triangle

5 area there. If you know the restaurant of Olympik, which exists today,

6 and that was where the checkpoint was -- and the soldiers who were in

7 Lasva for the population would take shifts on a daily basis, and that was

8 your work duty. It was like a work obligation and work duty. That's how

9 it was. You took shifts. Two soldiers at a time. There was -- there

10 were two shifts, the first shift and the second shift; the day shift and

11 the night shift.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. For us to be able to

13 follow this next portion of questions that I'm going to ask you, I should

14 like the Trial Chamber and the witness and everybody else to be shown a

15 map of the Lasva river valley. Could the map be placed -- be distributed

16 and placed on the overhead projector, please.

17 I apologise. The technical booth has not received a copy to have

18 map, so could we place the map on the overhead projector. We haven't got

19 a tape of it.

20 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, using this map, could you indicate to us with the

21 pointer you have in front of you each place mentioned: Lasva, Donja

22 Visnjica, Brdo, and Dusina.

23 A. Yes. This is it, from the Bosna and Lasva confluence we have the

24 BH army post here.

25 Q. Could you show us on the map.

Page 457

1 A. This is the BH army point. This black arrow is a bridge, I

2 think. And from this bridge, around this curve, was another checkpoint

3 of the Croatian Defence Council. This was no man's land. It was the

4 space in between. And you would go to the free zone over here.

5 This is Lasva. That was a station.

6 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but next to the station there was the

7 cafe owned by Faruk Barucija; is that right?

8 A. Yes, next to the shop.

9 Q. And that's where the HVO checkpoint was.

10 A. No. That's not where the HVO checkpoint was. The shop received

11 -- obtained the premises of this shop to use for their own purposes, and

12 there were problems quite often there because there was a flag set up

13 which was taken down very often and incidents broke out in that shop.

14 But the HVO never had its checkpoint in the shop itself there, at that

15 point.

16 Q. Nevertheless, the HVO did control the passage through that area.

17 A. No, it did not. Everybody could move around quite freely. There

18 was no control there at all. As far as control is concerned, the

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina army set up a checkpoint on the bridge crossing the

20 Lasva river, at the crossroads here. That's where there was a wooden

21 bridge. There's a concrete bridge there now. They even placed tank

22 mines there. And that was held -- that checkpoint was held by our

23 neighbour, people who grew up with me. We grew up together. I could

24 give you many of their names. I would meet them and I very often had

25 problems when I was going back home after doing my duty. They wouldn't

Page 458

1 allow me free passage, they asked to see my identification papers. Quite

2 simply, there was provocation there.

3 Q. After Lasva, we come to the hamlet of Rajici, which is also

4 inhabited by Croats and where all adults were members of the HVO; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes. This was a purely Croatian village. It's here. This is

7 the stream, and this is where the village of Rajici was. It was part of

8 Donja Visnjica. Exactly where I was showing now, this was part of Donja

9 Visnjica. It belonged to Donja Visnjica, according to municipality maps,

10 as only the Rajici lived there; that is, the family name. They were all

11 relatives and they called this hamlet Rajici and that is how it was

12 called.

13 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, let me ask you, in view of the HVO checkpoint

14 that you just pointed to us --

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

16 The Prosecutor has an objection to make. What is the point?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it's not so much an objection. I'm

18 unsure as to whether my colleague is going to somehow describe for the

19 record what the witness is pointing to or perhaps have him mark the map,

20 but he has been pointing to and discussing a number of points for the

21 past few minutes, none of which will be reflected in the written record

22 of trial, absent an explanation or markings being made to the map. And I

23 simply point that out before we get much further down -- down the road.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The witness needs to

25 confirm, in answer to your question, that the localities mentioned on the

Page 459

1 map do indeed correspond to the localities he's familiar with. So he

2 should confirm that the village of Rajici is indeed there, that his

3 village of Lasva is as marked on the map, and that the control put up by

4 the HVO was indeed at the point where the two rivers meet, that is, next

5 to the wooden bridge. So he should answer your questions with a yes or

6 no.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, you have understood the observations by the

9 President, so will you please confirm that you recognise the map of the

10 Lasva area.

11 A. Yes, I recognise the map.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask this map

13 to be marked for identification as a map recognised by the witness.

14 Q. And will you also confirm that on this map you did identify the

15 locality of Lasva, the position of the railway station on it.

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. The spot where the village of Rajici is, that you come from.

18 A. Yes, that is right.

19 Q. That close to the confluence of the Lasva River and the Bosna

20 River you marked a checkpoint held by the HVO and the other one, manned

21 by the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that right?

22 A. Yes, that was at the confluence and not at the railway station,

23 as you said. Next to Faruk Barucija's coffee bar.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] This map also shows the

25 localities and the elevations of the hamlets of Brdo, Crna and Dusina.

Page 460

1 Since the witness has recognised this map as a whole, including the

2 altitudes, I would like to tender it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, can we have a

4 number for this exhibit.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation Continues] ... DH3.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, please.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, now that we have recalled all the localities that

9 are relevant for this case, would you agree with me if I say that if the

10 road towards Busovaca is blocked the only way to come from Zenica to

11 Kacuni, Busovaca, or other places in the direction of Sarajevo leads

12 through Lasva and Dusina? Is that right?

13 A. I don't understand what you mean. The road was never blocked.

14 There was just a checkpoint.

15 Q. Will you please answer my question. If the road to Busovaca is

16 blocked, is it only way to reach the area of Kacuni, Sarajevo, et cetera,

17 via Lasva and Dusina, since the road from Visoko had already been

18 occupied by Serb forces?

19 A. Yes, I said that. But the road was not blocked. The road was

20 open to traffic, and everyone could use it. But just as at the BH army

21 checkpoint did controls and checks because of smuggling and all kinds of

22 things, but road was open.

23 Q. This road through Lasva and Dusina leads through a mountainous

24 area; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 461

1 Q. I should now like to remind you of a meeting which you also

2 mentioned and which happened at the local commune of Lasva a day or two

3 prior to the conflict of the 26th of January. Namely, is it true that at

4 the local commune premises of Lasva a meeting was held between

5 representatives of the army a day or two prior to the conflict and you

6 attended that meeting, as well as Zvonko Rajic, Ivica Filipovic, Anto

7 Kristo, Rados Dragan, as representatives of the HVO?

8 A. It is not right. A meeting was held, but I was working at the

9 checkpoint at the time, and it is not true that I attended, but I do know

10 that a meeting was held. And there were representatives from Kotor Varos

11 and Vrhovina, refugees who had been expelled and they attended the

12 meeting. I'm aware of that meeting but I didn't attend it.

13 Q. You know that the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina had indicated

14 that there was a great danger of a unit from Busovaca where there was an

15 open armed conflict going on with the army being present in the area of

16 Zenica; is that right?

17 A. I did not attend the meeting, so I can't assert that. But I can

18 pass on what I heard at the time, and that is that Mr. Zvonko Rajic and a

19 representative from Kotor Varos --

20 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, if you don't know exactly what happened, I won't

21 ask you about it, because it is best to speak about things you know from

22 personal knowledge in this Tribunal.

23 A. I said that I didn't attend. I can only tell you what I was

24 told. And I wasn't there and I can pass on what I was told as to what

25 happened at the meeting and what the decision that was taken was.

Page 462

1 Q. Do you know that Zvonko Rajic rejected all proposals of the army

2 and that he made a statement for television to that effect?

3 A. No, he didn't. I told you I wasn't there. I personally, and my

4 colleagues at the checkpoint afterwards, were told what had happened

5 there.

6 Q. Let us now discuss the events of the 25th and the 26th of

7 January. On the 25th of January, in the afternoon, you were in Dusina in

8 the hamlet of Kegelj in Marko Rajic's house; is that right?

9 A. No, I wasn't in Dusina at all. That is not true.

10 Q. You are aware that on that day two members of the army from

11 Dusina were arrested. Do you know that?

12 A. No, madam. They were not from Dusina but from Brdo, Mehmedalija.

13 And we were not in Dusina but we were in a patrol going from Crna towards

14 Busovaca and not at Dusina at Marko Rajic's house. That is erroneous

15 information.

16 Q. But you do know that two members of the army were captured and

17 arrested on that day.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. On that occasion, you had on you a Winchester Austrian sniper

20 rifle.

21 A. No, it is not true. I had a Kalashnikov rifle, which has a

22 number. And in that patrol these two gentlemen who were arrested, they

23 were provoking us and they were even threatening us that we couldn't pass

24 through the village. Zvonko Rajic was there and a group of people, a

25 group of eight men, and these two guys were disarmed because they

Page 463

1 threatened, they wouldn't let us pass through the village of Kegelj, not

2 at Dusina. And then Zvonko ordered that they be disarmed and they went

3 to the local commune, reported them, and then they returned their weapons

4 without any mistreatment or any problems. This can be confirmed by

5 others.

6 Q. So you were patrolling, together with Zvonko Rajic and another

7 eight members of the HVO.

8 A. Yes.

9 I apologise; may I add something? In that patrol, there should

10 have been members of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina with us together, but

11 they refused because they didn't want to do it together with us. For

12 them we were the aggressors; that is how they considered us at the time.

13 Q. You said yesterday that your families had been moved to the

14 Kegelj hamlet. Is it true that the families from Lasva, Brdo, and other

15 hamlets nearby were moved on the 25th of January to the Kegelj

16 settlement?

17 A. Not all of them. My family and some other families, out of fear

18 of their own free will, they grouped together. It is true that some

19 families with their children had sought shelter in the house of Marko

20 Rajic.

21 Q. Actually, they moved there because you were preparing for the

22 conflict the next day.

23 A. No, not because of our preparations. Because if a man was

24 preparing himself, he wouldn't be in bed asleep; he would be on his

25 position. You know how a man who is preparing for a conflict acts.

Page 464

1 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, let us go back to the second part of your

2 testimony yesterday and today. Yesterday and today you were saying under

3 oath, before this Trial Chamber, truthfully.

4 A. Yes, I truthfully recounted everything I had experienced and what

5 I can still recollect. I may have omitted to mention something.

6 Q. Before yesterday's testimony, you made a statement to the

7 investigators of The Hague Tribunal; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you spoke about all those events truthfully, to the best of

10 your recollection; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I should now like to ask you to look at the statement that you

13 gave to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal so that we might check

14 the truthfulness of what you just said. We have prepared a sufficient

15 number of copies in English and Bosnian of Mr. Cvijanovic's statement.

16 And could you be given a copy of the statement in B/C/S because that is

17 the statement the two of us understand best; isn't that right? Is that

18 the statement you gave? Can you confirm that the first page contains

19 your particulars correctly and on the last page is the certification that

20 the statement was read out to you and that you understood it and that the

21 same may be used before the International Criminal Tribunal; is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well. Now, that we have identified the statement, I would

25 like to ask you to answer my questions as precisely as you can.

Page 465

1 Yesterday, answering a question from the Prosecution, you said that a

2 relative of yours on the 26th of January in the morning, a little before

3 6.00, came from Zvonko Rajic and told you that you had been attacked and

4 that you all needed to go to the billiard room where you used to meet

5 anyway. And this is noted on page 62, line 2 of the unauthorised

6 transcript of yesterday's proceedings. Is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also said that you received an order from Zvonko Rajic to

9 gather there, to meet there, which is noted on page 62, line 24 of the

10 LiveNote.

11 A. Yes. That is what this relative told me that Zvonko had ordered.

12 Q. In your statement of the 11th of November, 1999, which you have

13 in front of you, on page 2, third paragraph, in the B/C/S version, you

14 stated "I woke up and went out. There was shooting towards my house. I

15 grabbed my rifle and went to the coffee bar where the HVO gathered." Is

16 that what it says in your statement?

17 A. Yes, it does.

18 Q. Are these two statements, Mr. Cvijanovic, different?

19 A. It's quite normal that they should be different. I don't know

20 how this was translated and written down. I didn't have a watch. I told

21 you roughly what time it was. But it is correct that this relative came,

22 that I grabbed my rifle, and I went where I did.

23 Q. So it's not right that you got up and ran to the billiard room

24 straight away, where the HVO meeting place was.

25 A. I don't understand what you said. Could you repeat that?

Page 466

1 Q. In paragraph 3, on page 2 of the statement that you provided for

2 the Prosecution earlier, the fourth sentence reads: "I grabbed my rifle

3 and I went to a coffee bar where the HVO had their meeting place." You

4 did not mention your relative. So the two statements are not identical.

5 A. According to what it says here, that is true. I don't know how

6 the gentleman wrote that down, but I stand by what I said, that all this

7 happened the way it did and it can be verified.

8 Q. Thank you. Yesterday in court you stated that "Zvonko Rajic

9 tried to contact Busovaca but he couldn't because it was difficult to

10 establish a connection." This was noted on page 63, lines 13, 14 of the

11 LiveNote. Is that what you said yesterday?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. In your earlier statement, which you have in front of you, you

14 stated that "Zvonko Rajic was in contact with the command in Busovaca."

15 This can be found in the middle of the third paragraph. And you stated:

16 "He was in contact with the HVO command if Busovaca." Do you agree with

17 me that again these two statements differ?

18 A. No. I said yesterday I didn't deny that Zvonko was in contact,

19 that it was with difficulty that he reached them but on a couple of

20 occasions he did contact them. So I don't see any discrepancy.

21 Q. But clearly the transcript does not reflect that because it

22 cannot be found in the transcript. You have now cleared that up. I will

23 continue with my questions.

24 Yesterday, in answer to a question from the Prosecution as to

25 whether two BH soldiers that you spoke to in the coffee bar said how many

Page 467

1 soldiers there were on their side, how many there were roughly, you said

2 that they didn't mention how many soldiers they had but that they did

3 mention units and their names. And this appears on page 66, lines 14 to

4 22 of the transcript. Did you say that yesterday, Mr. Cvijanovic?

5 A. Yes, I did. I said that they didn't mention a figure but they

6 were astonished and they said, "Why would we need so many soldiers?"

7 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecution in 1999, at the end

8 of the fourth paragraph, last sentence, you said, "They were surprised

9 and said that there was no need for them to bring 1.500 soldiers to the

10 area." You didn't mention the units. Is it true that again there's a

11 discrepancy between these two statements?

12 A. Just a moment, please. Let me tell you. It is true maybe that

13 is what I said, but this was ten years ago. But I am certain - and this

14 will be confirmed by the others who were present there - that those same

15 two soldiers, that they were there and that is what they said, and that

16 is what happened.

17 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Cvijanovic, you testified that ten of you soldiers

18 headed towards the Vranjaca relay station.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In the statement you have in front of you, you told the

21 Prosecution that there was some 15 of you HVO soldiers that headed

22 towards Dusina and that 30 metres from the village you met Perica Rados

23 and Mijo Ljubicic. And this is on page 3 of the B/C/S version, last

24 paragraph. Are these two statements different too?

25 A. Let me tell you. Things have been clarified, but let me clarify

Page 468












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 469

1 again. A squad of us ten started out, but more joined us, so that there

2 were about 15 of us. And when we climbed up on the hill, the fire

3 started -- was opened at us and Mijo Ljubicic came out from his house,

4 where his father had been killed --

5 Q. You described the events yesterday and clarified it. I'm just

6 trying to establish to what extent your statement given earlier and the

7 statement here in court under oath are identical, to what extent they are

8 identical. So will you please answer with a yes or no, if you can.

9 Before I continue, since you mentioned that there were some

10 differences in the translation, tell me, please: Did the Prosecution

11 show you your statement before you started testifying here?

12 A. No, no one showed me anything. The statement I gave in 1999, at

13 the time I signed it - and I stand by what I said. Now, how this was

14 translated, it is impossible to have every word noted correctly, but the

15 gist of it, the substance of it, is accurate.

16 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, in answer to a question from the Prosecution, you

17 said that Zvonko Rajic had contacted Drago Rados because he had a radio

18 station and that Rados told him that they had been attacked, that there

19 were some killed and wounded, that there were people seeking aid, et

20 cetera; is that right?

21 A. Yes, Drago Rajic called him and said that there were casualties,

22 that there was a conflict going on, and he was asking for assistance. He

23 told all of us this, and we heard him talk over the radio.

24 Q. In your statement on page 2 you said: "Zvonko Rajic tried to

25 contact the HVO commander Drago Rados who was at Brdo, but he could not

Page 470

1 get Drago on the radio." Again, these two statements differ.

2 A. Yes. But Zvonko was establishing contact during the shooting in

3 the morning, but Drago got -- reached Zvonko over the Motorola. There is

4 a difference. Zvonko did call Drago and couldn't reach him, but Drago

5 did reach Zvonko.

6 Q. You stated in court that when you opened fire as well, you

7 managed to reach Perica Rados's house, that you were then joined by

8 Perica Rados, Mijo Ljubicic, and Drago Rados. This is stated on page 71

9 of the transcript, lines 1 and 2. Did you say that yesterday?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, you stated that 30

12 metres before reaching the village you met Perica Rados and Mijo Ljubicic

13 and you reached the house and managed to pull him out while the shooting

14 was still going on. This is page 2, one-but-last sentence of the B/C/S

15 document. Are these two statements different again?

16 A. According to what is written and what you are telling me, yes.

17 But --

18 Q. That was my question. So the statements do differ.

19 You also stated yesterday Zvonko Rados called up Busovaca again

20 and that he was ordered to negotiate; is that right?

21 A. Not Zvonko Rados. Rajic.

22 Q. I'm sorry, Rajic.

23 A. Yes. That is correct.

24 Q. So Zvonko asked you to go with him but you didn't do that; is

25 that what you said?

Page 471

1 A. I don't understand your question. Zvonko called and then you're

2 asking me about me going with him?

3 Q. You said yesterday that Zvonko spoke to Busovaca and received

4 orders to negotiate. That is what you said.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After that, Zvonko Rajic asked you to go with him to those

7 negotiations but you didn't accept; is that right?

8 A. No. We started calling out to one another, and that is when the

9 negotiations started. But Zvonko, upon Edin's initiative to go there,

10 and no one dared go. And Edin was saying that he was guaranteeing that

11 everything would be okay, and that is when Zvonko asked me to go with him

12 but I simply didn't dare out of fear. I didn't trust them.

13 Q. So even --

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to stop there

15 because it is 10.30. We will have a 25-minute break, and we will resume

16 at five to 11.00 with your cross-examination. Thank you.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

20 You may be seated.

21 I'm going to give the floor to the Defence again. And I should

22 like to note that roughly speaking you will have about 30 minutes left

23 for your cross-examination. The Prosecution yesterday took about an hour

24 and a half, judging by my calculations. You've had an hour, which leaves

25 you with 30 minutes. Of course, if the Prosecution wants to ask

Page 472

1 additional questions, it has the right to do so, and the Chamber might

2 have one or two questions too. But anyway, I give you the floor now.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, I think we can continue. I think you've had a

5 chance to have a rest.

6 In your testimony yesterday, you said that Slavka Rados was the

7 wife of Drago Rados and when she came to you she told you that civilians

8 had been killed in the village; is that right?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. A similar statement was given by you to the OTP; isn't that

11 right?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. You also stated before this court that you knew Edin Hakanovic

14 from before; is that right?

15 A. Yes. You have that.

16 Q. You know that he was a policeman in Visoko; isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you can also confirm that the town of Visoko does not belong

19 to the Zenica municipality; that's right, isn't it?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the witness. I'm

21 afraid we cannot hear the witness.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how do you know that the town

23 of Visoko belongs to the Zenica municipality.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I apologise, Mr. Cvijanovic. I sometimes ask questions that are

Page 473

1 clear to you and myself, but I'm asking you for the benefit of the other

2 participants in this courtroom, to enable them to understand as well.

3 Thank you.

4 You know that there are proceedings against Mr. Hakanovic in

5 Zenica at the moment, legal proceedings. Are you aware of that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you never said that you would testify in that case, although

8 that is the duty of all citizens.

9 A. Well, nobody ever asked me to do so. So how come you expect me

10 to do that? How can I go to a court of law and do something like that?

11 Now, had anybody asked me to testify, I would have agreed straight away.

12 Q. All right. Very well. Now, yesterday you testified that at a

13 point in time you saw a group of five or six soldiers who came in and

14 that one of them had a flak jacket and the other one camouflage uniforms

15 with black vests. Did you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Also asked by the Prosecutor - your response was that at that

18 point, when you saw them, you didn't know who they actually were, and

19 that was noted on page 81, line 3. Is that what you said?

20 A. Yes. They were going to Barucija to Radacove Kuce [phoen] near

21 Crna, which is up on the hill from Crna towards the hill.

22 Q. You also said when asked by the Prosecutor that you didn't know

23 Patkovic before the war but that you knew that during the war he

24 negotiated with Zvonko Rajic and that on that day in the school he

25 introduced himself personally. Is that what you said?

Page 474

1 A. Well, I said I didn't know him personally, but I did say that I

2 heard what was going on, because I lived there, and I heard who the man

3 was and what he was, but I didn't know him personally. And that Zvonko

4 would tell us who he was and what he was because he negotiated with him.

5 What they discussed, I don't know. But what I am telling you is correct.

6 Q. This morning, asked by the Prosecutor, you explained that at one

7 point he went -- a gentleman entered the school you were in. He had a

8 beard and a bag of Zvonko Rajic's, whom you saw for the first time then

9 and there, and who ultimately introduced himself as being Serif Patkovic.

10 Is that what you said this morning?

11 A. No. You interpreted that wrong, madam. It was the same man who

12 was up at Brdo in the flak jacket, and I saw him very well and so did

13 everybody else, not only me. And an unknown person entered and told us

14 to stand before the man came in. I just described how -- what that man

15 looked like, nothing more than that. So you misunderstood me.

16 Q. In the statement you gave in 1999 to the investigators of the

17 OTP, paragraph 2 in the B/C/S version, you stated the following: "I knew

18 Patkovic by site before the war, and at the beginning of the war I would

19 see him often at the checkpoints. He was then a deputy commander of the

20 7th Muslim Brigade." Do you agree that these statements differ?

21 A. As I've already said, once again you are interpreting things

22 incorrectly. I didn't know him personally, and that's what I said. But

23 I would see him around. I didn't --

24 Q. There's no need to go on with your explanations. All I said was:

25 Is that what you stated? And can you yourself see that the two

Page 475

1 statements differ?

2 A. Well, I don't know your interpretations or how you understand

3 them. I can only say what I said.

4 Q. On page 3, last paragraph of that same statement, the 1999

5 statement, you state the following: "I saw a group of people coming from

6 the direction of Dusina, and among them I recognised Serif Patkovic and

7 Vahid, nicknamed Geler." However, that statement is quite contrary to

8 what you said before that court.

9 A. Let me put it this way, madam. I don't remember that. But what

10 I said was I saw civilians walking across the field being led by armed

11 soldiers. They had them in front of them. Now, I don't remember this

12 other thing. Perhaps it was wrongly interpreted.

13 Q. So what you want to say is the investigator of The Hague Tribunal

14 introduced into the statement something you did not actually say?

15 A. Let me tell you this. Perhaps the man understood it incorrectly;

16 I don't know. Perhaps that's how they understood it. But what I told

17 you I stand by. That's what I said. I saw what I saw and that's what I

18 said, and it wasn't only I who was there myself. There were several

19 other people, and I'm sure you'll hear it from them too.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. You're welcome.

22 Q. You said to the Court that from the place you were in you did not

23 see how Rajic was wounded but you did hear just one shot and some noise,

24 some commotion; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 476

1 Q. You also said that you saw Rajic once again being carried by his

2 brother and Franjo Batinic and Drago Rados; is that what you said?

3 A. Yes, and the guys who were with them: Srecko Kristo, Jozo and

4 Viktor Rajic, and his brother Perica Rados, Franjo Batinic, -- Srecko

5 Kristo and Jozo Kristo.

6 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Cvijanovic, you also testified and said that

7 Zvonko Rajic did not walk, that he was carried - that is on page 79, line

8 18 of the transcript - and then you said that Zvonko Rajic was lowered to

9 the ground onto the mud and that the other soldiers were asked to place

10 their hands up above their heads and look down at the ground. That was

11 on page 79, lines 12 to 15. Is that what you said yesterday?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, you said that

14 Patkovic ordered the soldiers to place Zvonko Rajic in a line and that

15 that's what they did, what the soldiers did, and that Zvonko Rajic

16 tripped and fell into the stream. And that was noted on page 4,

17 paragraph 4 of the B/C/S version.

18 A. I apologise. Just a moment, please, but would you clarify that.

19 I'm not quite clear on what you're saying or what you want. Would you go

20 slowly, please, read it out slowly to me .

21 Q. In paragraph 4, in the middle of that paragraph, on page 4 of the

22 B/C/S version, you said the following: "Then Patkovic ordered the

23 soldiers to place Zvonko in a line and they shouted 'you Ustasha piece of

24 shit.' The HVO soldiers put Zvonko in a line. Zvonko pleaded for help,

25 and no response came. Zvonko tripped and fell into a ditch and Patkovic

Page 477

1 ordered the soldiers to put him out of the ditch, which they did."

2 A. Madam --

3 Q. Do you agree that those two statements, as to the position of

4 Zvonko Rajic, are completely different?

5 A. Yes. But I wasn't quoting each moment. I said roughly what was

6 going on, the substance of it. I didn't explain all the details, because

7 it lasted. It was an ongoing moment. It wasn't just one moment, one

8 flash. And what I said basically - it depends how you want to look at it

9 - but that's what I said, the way I said it.

10 Q. However, as this was recorded in the transcript and in your own

11 statement, this differs.

12 A. Well, I don't know how this was translated and interpreted into

13 English, and what they introduced into my statement, but what I said was

14 that this was ten years ago and four years ago I gave that -- was when I

15 gave that statement, so I can't remember every word of what I said. But

16 basically I can explain something to you if something. If something is

17 not clear to you, feel free to ask me.

18 Q. Well, thank you. I will.

19 You also said yesterday that after the murder, when Patkovic

20 cocked his Skorpio pistol, after Zvonko Rajic's killing, he put his

21 pistol to Drago Rajic to his forehead and pulled the trigger. Is that

22 what you said?

23 A. Yes, that's what I said.

24 Q. And several time by the Prosecutor in the course of the day

25 yesterday you said that throughout the time you didn't budge from the

Page 478

1 place you were at when Zvonko Rajic went off with other HVO members and

2 Edin Hakanovic. And that was noted on page 79, line 22; page 81, line

3 22/23; and in other places too. Now, is that correct? Is that what you

4 said?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. You also said that from that particular place you were able to

7 see everything very well and that you were at a distance of about 50 to

8 70 metres as the crow flies from the place where the killing of Zvonko

9 Rajic took place. Is that what you said?

10 A. Yes. Just a moment, please. I said roughly what the distance

11 was the way we saw it. It need not be exact. But yes, we were there,

12 not only I myself but all the other people there too. And I gave the

13 names as well.

14 Q. On page 3 of your statement, the one you gave to the Prosecutor,

15 in the last paragraph, and page 4 in the first paragraph, you said: "I

16 heard the Muslim soldiers ordering our group to let Zvonko go -- let him

17 down, set him down. Then I moved down the hill with a couple of our

18 soldiers, passing between the houses I saw a group which was coming from

19 the direction of Dusina, and then I "I heard the Muslim soldiers ordering

20 our group to let Zvonko go -- let him down, set him down. Then I moved

21 down the hill with a couple of our soldiers. Passing between the houses

22 I saw a group which was coming from the direction of Dusina, and then I

23 was at a distance of 30 metres from the group. And from my position I

24 was able to see everything and hear everything very well." Now, these

25 two statements, Mr. Cvijanovic, are quite different; is that true?

Page 479

1 A. Madam, let me tell you this: I told you a moment ago I can't

2 quote every word I said at the time. But I stand behind what I said that

3 we were standing there. I don't know whether you know the house, whether

4 you were ever there, whether you know what the area looks like. Now, the

5 fact that we had to move around there and take shelter because there were

6 hills all around --

7 Q. Sir, don't go into all these explanations. We've seen the

8 general area and how the land lies. But you told the Prosecutor that you

9 didn't move. I read out what you said in your statement, and the two

10 things are not identical.

11 A. No. We moved around within a radius of 10, 20, 30 metres. They

12 were shooting at us from all sides. It was a small field. But basically

13 we stayed where we were. We didn't move from that general area and that

14 position. If that's not clear to you, then I'll be happy to clarify it

15 for you. Now, your interpretations are something else again. So moving

16 around 10, 15, 20 metres, I consider that to be the same place, because

17 they were shooting at us from all around. That's what I wanted to say.

18 Q. Thank you. You also said that you were not taken prisoner but

19 that at Dragan Kristo's invitation, your neighbour, you went off to the

20 same coffee bar you set off from that morning.

21 A. Yes. He came from the place where we were.

22 Q. Did Dragan Kristo come to call you himself?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your statement earlier on, you said that with Dragan Kristo

25 Hazim Barucija came too. Once again, the two statements differ.

Page 480

1 A. Just a moment, please. Faruk Barucija came to the billiard

2 coffee bar. I said he -- that was wrongly interpreted. He came to the

3 village of Visnjica; that's where he came. And when he arrived, he took

4 from Ivica Kristo, nicknamed Peros [phoen], his wife and transferred him

5 too and then he said that the Mujahedin had arrived and that along with

6 lots of soldiers they said that unless we surrendered they would kill

7 everyone. He told me that, and everybody will confirm that.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, in that same coffee bar, you encountered the two

9 heavily armed members of the BH army.

10 A. Yes, of course. That's right.

11 Q. And they gave you information about their units to you as the

12 enemy side.

13 A. You're interpreting this wrongly again. They didn't give us all

14 the information, but they did talk to us. And the people were beside

15 themselves. And they'll confirm that, I'm sure, because they couldn't

16 believe that all that was going on. And I quote their words - and

17 everyone will be able to tell you that, they will be able to tell you

18 that too - they said, "I'm ashamed of being a Muslim." That's what they

19 said. Those are their very words, and I'm quoting those words.

20 Q. Today you said that from the billiard coffee bar you set off

21 towards the school building and that fire was opened on you, and that you

22 returned again. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your statement, the one you gave to the OTP, you said that you

25 went straight from the coffee bar to the schoolhouse.

Page 481

1 A. Yes. We did go to the schoolhouse straight away. But when we

2 were wondering whether to start off or not from the Gornja Visnjica area

3 - and you can see everything down at the bottom quite clearly - they shot

4 at us.

5 Q. Does thank you. I think we've clarified that point. But you

6 also said that you were saved by a high-raping MUP officer. Bakir

7 Alispahic was his name.

8 A. Yes. I said that, because he conveyed that to me personally,

9 after I was questioned in the KP Dom.

10 Q. Was that the Minister of the Interior of the republican MUP?

11 A. Well, I didn't know the man. I heard him for the first time

12 then. I heard him down there. He introduced himself. So I don't know

13 the man.

14 Q. If I toll you that that high-ranking MUP officer of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina was not in Zenica at all at the time, would you agree

16 with me there? I put it to you.

17 A. I didn't know the man. I knew how -- what he introduced himself,

18 not only to me but to the others, because it was in the prison while we

19 were in custody. And then we were led off to separate offices for

20 interrogation, for questioning.

21 Q. All right. You needn't go into all that.

22 Now, asked by the Prosecutor today whether you were given medical

23 assistance, you said that you were not given medical assistance; is that

24 right?

25 A. No. What I said was that as soon as we arrived, we weren't given

Page 482

1 assistance but later on that same man who questioned us and the gentleman

2 who was the head there at the time, that a doctor did come in to the

3 prison and gave us some medicines, et cetera. He gave us some

4 assistance. And the assistance that we got was not anything that you

5 could say helped us. It was just -- how shall I put this?

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvijanovic. I didn't hear that part of your

7 answer, and it wasn't recorded in the transcript, but you've clarified

8 the point now.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as almost every

10 paragraph stated by this -- uttered by this witness to the investigators

11 of The Hague Tribunal is contrary to what he has said in court, I suggest

12 that the statement given to the OTP be tendered into evidence and it goes

13 to the credibility of the witness.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With respect to your demand to

15 have this tendered into evidence, the Prosecution wishes to intervene.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the comments by my learned colleague

17 perhaps would have been better saved for argumentation. Be that as it

18 may, if she could simply clarify for the record whether she's tendering

19 this statement purely as it might go to the credibility of the witness or

20 whether she's tendering it for the truth of the matter set forth in the

21 document would be a helpful clarification.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Could the Defence define

23 more precisely the object it has in mind in tendering this. Is it to

24 contest the credibility of the witness, to test the credibility of the

25 witness?

Page 483

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would like

2 to tender the statement into evidence in order to assert the lack of

3 credibility of this witness and not to assert the facts as presented in

4 the statement.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, previously you made a statement with respect to

8 the events that you testified about today. And I should like to ask you

9 to be shown the statement you gave to the Commission for the

10 Establishment of War Crimes, Mostar, taken by Jure Kristo, the

11 representative of that commission. I think I have handed round

12 sufficient copies for Their Honours and the rest of the participants.

13 I'm sorry, this statement exists only in the B/C/S version.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we continue, lets assign

15 a number to the statement taken by the OTP of this witness.

16 May we have a number, please, Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is DH4 and DH4 B/C/S for the

18 translation.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Now, we have a second document. Has this document been

21 translated into English?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we have already

23 informed you, with respect to translation problems, this document has not

24 been translated into English. I hope that the Trial Chamber will make

25 suggestions as to what to do in future with respect to translation

Page 484

1 issues, because all the documents for cross-examination for Dusina have

2 been returned to us by the registrar in their original.

3 I should like to have a number assigned to this document, because

4 it will be tendered into evidence later.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give -- to mark

6 it for identification. May we do that now, please.

7 I see the Prosecutor on his feet with respect to this B/C/S

8 document, that it hasn't been translated yet. May we hear your comments.

9 The Defence wishes to produce it. What is your position?

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, our position would be the same with

11 respect to the document marked DH2 for identification; namely, we have

12 not seen this document. It's not in one of the official working

13 languages. And we respectfully reserve our position on the document.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we're going to assign a

15 provisional number to the document, Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The number is DH5 ID, marked for identification.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I turn to the

18 Defence now to tell us of the weight the document holds -- the gist of

19 the document, the contents.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should first of

21 all like to ask Mr. Cvijanovic to tell us whether he recognises his

22 signature on pages 1 and 2, and then I'll go on to explain the contents

23 of the document to you.

24 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, did you in fact sign this document on pages 1 and

25 2? Take a look at the signature.

Page 485

1 A. Just let me read through it, please.

2 Q. I'm asking you to take a look at the signature first and then

3 we'll discuss the contents later.

4 A. I don't remember this document at all.

5 Q. Is that your signature?

6 A. It is identical to my signature, but whether it is mine I can't

7 say. I don't know.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I proceed with

9 my questions to the witness pertaining to this document? Because he said

10 that the --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Please continue.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, again, the Prosecution would object.

14 There's not a proper foundation. The witness has said he doesn't

15 remember the document. He said the signature is identical to his but

16 whether it is his he cannot say; "I do not know." The Prosecution would

17 assert there's no proper foundation for asking the witness questions

18 about this document, given his previous response to the last two

19 questions.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At this point the

21 Chamber notes that the witness has some doubts as to the signature. He

22 can raise those doubts but tell us whether he knows what the document is

23 about. And I'm going to give him several minutes to look through the

24 document.

25 And we can have the document placed on the overhead projector.

Page 486

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I give

2 clarification and tell you what the document is about?

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we proceed, let's hear

4 from the witness. Is this a real document or a false document? Because

5 he seems to have doubts about his signature.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, but first of all, can

7 I ask who this man Jure Kristo is to whom the lady refers and to -- the

8 document she is referring to?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a document

10 from the --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who is Mr. Kristo?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The Croatian Republic of

13 Herceg-Bosna is what it says, the government of the Croatian Republic of

14 Herceg-Bosna, the Commission for Establishing War Crimes on the territory

15 of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna in Mostar took a statement from

16 Zeljko Cvijanovic, son of Zarko, with his personal data, and a

17 representative of the commission taking the statement was this man Jure

18 Kristo. That is what it states after all the particulars of the witness,

19 Zeljko Cvijanovic, is set out in the first paragraph of the document.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just know one man named Jure

22 Kristo. I don't remember this, however. This is an unimportant

23 document, as far as I'm concerned. Jure Kristo was a gentleman who was

24 my neighbour. He lived in Germany. He lived and worked -- has been

25 living and working in Germany for many years. It is his house, however,

Page 487

1 in which the billiard coffee bar is located, and one of his relatives was

2 a proprietor, and that's the Kristo I know. I don't remember this

3 particular Kristo, and this is incorrect, as far as I'm concerned.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, did you at any time make a statement to the

6 Commission for the Establishment of War Crimes at all, before you made

7 the statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of The Hague Tribunal?

8 A. I don't know what you want to ask me, madam. What commission are

9 you referring to? What kind of commission? I absolutely have no

10 recollection of any of this.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber is going to ask the

12 witness: Do you remember appearing before a commission represented by

13 Mr. Jure Kristo, who questioned you about events that you witnessed, and

14 did you sign this document?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could the witness tell us.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He doesn't remember.

19 Very well. Please proceed with your question.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, in this statement, in paragraph 3, you said the

22 following: "I was at Dusina --"

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Your Honour. The witness has clearly

25 said he has no recollection of appearing before any such commission or

Page 488

1 giving any such statement. The Prosecution would assert it's improper

2 for the Defence to cross-examine him quoting from a document which he

3 clearly does not recall or have any knowledge about.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This document is

5 contested formally by the witness; therefore, in that case you cannot

6 continue to question him about it, because this could be considered

7 pressure on the witness who is contesting the authenticity of this

8 document. Therefore, this document cannot be admitted.

9 Do you have any other questions to put to this witness?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my understanding is

11 that this document has been identified nevertheless and that it will be

12 possible in the course of these proceedings to establish the authenticity

13 of the document. Is my understanding correct?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, you understood

15 perfectly, that there will be time for the Defence to produce it with

16 other evidence. Do you have any other questions for this witness?

17 Because it's already 11.35.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Just two more questions.

19 Q. Mr. Cvijanovic, you will agree with me when I say that the

20 conflict in Dusina started the moment when members of the HVO killed

21 Camdzic, who was going to negotiate with you.

22 A. No, that is not true. I never saw that man in my life, nor did I

23 ever negotiate, so that was absolutely not so.

24 Q. You will also agree with me that you shot at this man from a

25 sniper and that that was the reason why you didn't surrender immediately

Page 489

1 and why you hid.

2 A. I think those are pure fabrications, and personally, after

3 everything, my conclusion on the basis of everything that happened in

4 Lasva is that prior to the attack on Busovaca, when the army of Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina thought it would enter easily, what you said is not true.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

8 questions.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to the

10 cross-examination, the Defence tells us that it has no further questions,

11 so I give the floor now to the Prosecution, which, pursuant to Article 85

12 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, may now re-examine the witness,

13 following the questions put by the Defence.

14 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, if I may interject on behalf of

15 Mr. Kubura. Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting. On behalf of

16 Mr. Kubura --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.

18 MR. DIXON: [Previous translation continues] ... [Realtime

19 transcript read in error "There are questions"] -- questions to be asked

20 of this witness on behalf of Mr. Kubura. As Your Honours will know, he

21 hasn't been charged with events in Dusina or for any events before 1

22 April, 1993, which are the matters that this witness has dealt with, and

23 indeed in the list of witnesses which is provided by the Prosecution with

24 the pre-trial brief for Your Honours, he is not marked as a witness who

25 is relevant for Mr. Kubura. There are a number of witnesses on that list

Page 490

1 that are not marked as relevant for him, and in most of those cases the

2 Defence for Mr. Kubura will not be asking questions of those witnesses.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Dixon.

5 The Prosecutor, do you wish to ask any additional questions of

6 this witness?

7 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. But just for -- for a matter of

8 clarification, it would appear in the English transcript that Mr. Dixon

9 indicated that there are questions to be asked of this witness on behalf

10 of Mr. Kubura, and simply to clarify that. I'm not sure if -- if that's

11 a misquote in the transcript or if in fact the Defence for Mr. Kubura

12 does have questions for this witness. So perhaps if that could be

13 clarified.

14 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we don't have any questions for this

15 witness. It's a misquote in the transcript.

16 MR. MUNDIS: I just have a few questions for the witness. And I

17 might ask that he be shown Defence Exhibit DH4, the statement that he

18 provided to the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor of the

19 Tribunal.

20 Does he have both the English and the B/C/S? If they could both

21 be placed before the witness, please.

22 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:

23 Q. Witness, you have before you DH4, the statement that you gave to

24 the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal. You

25 have both the English and the B/C/S version of that statement; is that

Page 491

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you sign one of those versions of that statement?

4 A. Yes. It's DH4.

5 Q. Did you sign the English version or the B/C/S version of that

6 statement?

7 A. I signed in my own language. The signature is here, which

8 corresponds to my signature. And when I made my statement, I signed it.

9 Q. Let me -- let me --

10 A. I don't quite understand what you mean.

11 Q. One of the versions of the document - the statement that you have

12 before you - is in the English language, and one version of that

13 statement is in the Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian or Serbo-Croatian language;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The document that you signed, was it the English version or was

17 it the B/C/S version?

18 A. I signed indicating my identity number. When I made the

19 statement there was a lady. I think it was written in our language and

20 that it was translated into English. I can't remember exactly, but I

21 know that I signed the document.

22 Q. Yes. I understand that. Can you please look through the

23 document that you have signed, the text of the document that you have

24 signed. Is that document in English or in Serbo-Croatian?

25 A. In English. It's my signature.

Page 492

1 Q. Do you read or speak the English language?

2 A. No, I don't speak the English language, nor am I able to read it.

3 Q. Can you please look at the B/C/S version of your statement, which

4 is before you, the version in a language that you can read. Did you in

5 fact sign the B/C/S version of your statement that you provided to the

6 Tribunal investigator?

7 A. I didn't.

8 Q. Do you recall the first time you ever saw the

9 Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian language version of the statement that you

10 provided the investigator?

11 A. That was in Vitez, when I made my statement. Then the gentleman

12 showed it to me, and I signed it when I was making the statement there.

13 This was, I think, in the elementary school.

14 Q. Witness, did you sign a B/C/S version of your statement, or did

15 you only sign the English version?

16 A. The lady read out to me, and I signed it in English, I think, the

17 English version. I remember that well. It was in the elementary school

18 in Vitez. But I can't tell you exactly. I do know that I signed the

19 statement I gave.

20 Q. Thank you, witness.

21 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber has a

23 question for the witness.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to know

Page 493

1 whether the witness speaks Arabic or understands Arabic.

2 A. I don't speak Arabic, but before the war I worked for a time in

3 Arab countries, so that I was working there and I was able to identify

4 the people speaking that language.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that mean that when you

6 heard Muslims speaking Arabic, you were able sometimes to understand what

7 they were saying?

8 A. No, I couldn't understand what those words meant, but I heard

9 what they were saying. I don't speak Arabic. I don't understand the

10 words and what they mean.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you heard but you didn't

12 understand.

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Do you have any questions? No questions.

16 In that case, your testimony is now over. Thank you for coming

17 to The Hague to testify as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey

18 home. You are free to leave now.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We now have a witness as

22 envisaged. Regarding the timing, we can begin with his examination up

23 until 12.30, when we will have our usual break, and we will resume at

24 five to 1.00, until 1.45.

25 So the usher, would you please bring in the witness.

Page 494

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, are you hearing what I'm

3 saying in your own language?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell us your first

6 and last name, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Franjo Batinic.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 27th of September, 1967.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Municipality of Zenica.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current address?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am living in Busovaca.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your occupation?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now or before?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, currently.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am attached to the army.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are a career military

19 man.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: And what is your rank?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Soldier first class.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, soldier first class.

24 Very well.

25 I hear that you have -- I see that you had a headphone -- a cap

Page 495

1 in your hand. You can't wear it, but you are first going to read the

2 solemn declaration given to you. Will you please read the text.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

8 The Prosecution will now ask you questions. So I give the floor

9 to the representative of the Prosecution. We have until 12.30.

10 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may begin.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, we anticipate this

13 examination of Franjo Batinic, the second Prosecution witness, lasting

14 for about 1 hour 15 or 1 hour 30 minutes. The examination-in-chief will

15 focus on the murder of Zvonko Rajic and on the mistreatment of the

16 witness in the Zenica Music School in the order as just mentioned.

17 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

18 Q. Witness, have you been in the Yugoslav army, in the JNA?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please tell the Chamber when and where.

21 A. In 1987, I went to Karlovac, close to Zagreb, where I served

22 working on pontoon bridges. And I completed my service on the 10th of

23 June, 1988.

24 Q. Witness, was there any time you joined another military

25 organisation?

Page 496

1 A. What do you mean "military organisation"?

2 Q. After you left the JNA -- what did you do after you left the JNA?

3 A. Military organisation -- nothing -- I'm sorry. I found a job in

4 the Primorje-Rijeka company in Zenica. I worked there for about three

5 months. And then I worked temporarily for three months and 29 days.

6 After that, my brother from Switzerland came with a tractor and I worked

7 with a tractor. I tilled the land. I worked on the farm up until the

8 conflict.

9 Q. Up until the conflict. Did you ever join the HVO?

10 A. Yes.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please approach the

12 microphone.


14 Q. I'll repeat my question: Did you ever join the HVO?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. What does the acronym HVO stand for?

17 A. HVO. It's units of the Croatian Defence Council, of the Croatian

18 people, HVO for short, for defence.

19 Q. And when did you join the HVO?

20 A. On the 8th of April, 1992.

21 Q. And where? What unit were you attached to?

22 A. A reconnaissance platoon, Lasva, Busovaca.

23 Q. In 1992, towards the end of 1992, when you already have been a

24 member of the HVO, were there any tensions in the area of Busovaca?

25 A. Yes. The conflict started in Busovaca afterwards.

Page 497

1 Q. What conflict, Witness, are you referring to?

2 A. I'm talking about the conflict in Lasva. And I am testifying

3 about the late Zvonko Rajic, the conflict when they attacked -- the 7th

4 Muslim attacked.

5 Q. Witness, who were the opposing sides of this conflict?

6 A. We were attacked. The Muslim party attacked us, and the Serbs

7 had left the area before that. They had moved out.

8 Q. For clarification, are you saying that the parties of the

9 conflict were the HVO and the ABiH, the armed forces of the government of

10 the -- of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before 1992, before the end of 1992, how was the relation between

13 the HVO and the ABiH?

14 A. In 1992, the HVO did not exist, but the relationship between the

15 population was good.

16 Q. Were there any changes towards the end of 1992 and/or at the

17 beginning of 1993?

18 A. Could you clarify a little, please, your question.

19 Q. Witness, you were saying that in the course of 1992 the different

20 ethnicities within the area of Busovaca and Central Bosnia were living

21 quite well together. You were saying that there were changes afterwards.

22 What signs of changes can you describe for the Trial Chamber?

23 A. It's a rather difficult question for me, I'm afraid. Maybe if I

24 put my cap on I would be able to answer. About the conflicts in Lasva,

25 you find that in the statement.

Page 498

1 Q. Witness, you have been told by the President that you are not

2 allowed to wear your cap here and there's no need for it, obviously.

3 A. Never mind, then.

4 Q. In January 1993, to move on -- in January 1993, were there any

5 Muslim soldiers in the area of Lasva?

6 A. There were. They were stationed down there at the Usce, at the

7 confluence, at the crossroads, for about 15 days, maybe a little longer.

8 That's where they were staying. My brother has a house there. It used

9 to be state-owned, and there were machine-gun nests around there and they

10 were on duty there.

11 Q. And such Muslim soldiers you are referring to, were they members

12 of the ABiH?

13 A. The army of BiH, they were all under the army of the BiH. There

14 were several units under them.

15 Q. And what units are you referring to?

16 A. The 7th Muslim --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, for the interpreters

18 could you help the witness with the microphone, please. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

20 ask without the presence of the witness for me to inform the Trial

21 Chamber of a fact that may be of relevance for the testimony of this

22 witness. I am not quite sure whether the Prosecutor is aware of this

23 fact. I didn't know whether this fact was true, but in view of the first

24 answers given by the witness, perhaps it would be opportune for members

25 of the Trial Chamber to hear it.

Page 499

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Defence counsel.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would prefer the witness to

3 leave the courtroom for that purpose.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, in the absence of the

5 witness, because your question -- your information could raise a problem

6 with respect to the witness.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution?

9 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, the Prosecution doesn't know what

10 Defence counsel are referring to; however, we would agree to such a

11 procedure.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In that case,

13 Mr. Usher, will you please take the witness outside the courtroom for a

14 few minutes.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let him be close by in the

17 meantime.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this part of the hearing be

19 in private session, please? Could the public be excluded? Because it

20 could have consequences for the witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us order

22 private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I give the floor to the

19 Prosecutor for him to proceed with his questions.

20 But before you go ahead, let me tell the witness that he can

21 answer the questions asked of him but if he feels that he is unable to

22 answer, he should not do so and that if he doesn't understand a question

23 sufficiently clearly, he can ask that the question be repeated until he

24 understands it fully.

25 Does the witness understand this?

Page 505

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have understood it, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, you have the

4 floor.


6 Q. Mr. Batinic, do you still recall where you have been on the 25th

7 of January, 1993?

8 A. On the 25th of January, I left my house and went to Brdo. That's

9 where I spent the night. We toured the stables with some colleagues, the

10 barn, and that's where I spent the night.

11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how far away Brdo is from Dusina,

12 the hamlet of Dusina.

13 A. Well, Brdo from Dusina? I said about 2 or 3 kilometres, perhaps

14 less. You have to go across the fields, and then it's quicker. It's

15 quite near. It's a hamlet, underneath Dusina.

16 Q. The night from the 25th to the 26th of January 1993, you spent in

17 a stable near Brdo. Can you inform the Trial Chamber how you did awake

18 the next day.

19 A. I wasn't in the stable or barn. We just checked on it, because

20 my father had his livestock there, his sheep, so we checked on that and

21 went to Perica Rados's house and that's where I spent the night.

22 Q. Perica Rados's house, where is it located?

23 A. Perica Rados's house is at Brdo. It's a hamlet of Dusina. It

24 belongs to the late Niko Rados, actually, the house, but he's not the

25 eldest one there. He was in Zenica and abroad, his brothers.

Page 506

1 Q. The next day, on 26 January 1993, how did you awake?

2 A. Well, I awoke -- my colleagues went outside and I heard some

3 shooting, so I jumped up and went outside. And we were attacked from the

4 surrounding area.

5 Q. You heard some shootings and you were attacked from the

6 surrounding area. Where did the shootings come from and who did attack

7 you?

8 A. Who shot? Well, the 7th Muslim, the one that attacked us. They

9 shot from up there, the Barucija house. It's a house with a big roof,

10 square roof. It was green in colour. They looked for shelter, of

11 course.

12 Q. When 7th Muslim Brigade shot at you, how many soldiers were

13 around at the area at this time?

14 A. At that time? Well, I couldn't count them at that time. I just

15 realised when we met up, then I saw how many of them in that area, but

16 around Dusina there that's where they were.

17 Q. Witness, do you have any recollection being about 3 kilometres

18 away from Dusina what happened in Dusina at the same time?

19 A. Well, you could hear shooting up there. But as I say, I can't

20 talk about Dusina when I wasn't up there myself. All I can tell you was

21 about Brdo and the sounds that were heard round about, and about Zvonko

22 Rajic.

23 Q. The shooting you heard, at what time in the morning was it?

24 A. 5.30, half past 5.00.

25 Q. And the shooting you heard in Brdo and the shooting you heard in

Page 507

1 Dusina, was it at about at the same time?

2 A. Well, a bit earlier. That's it.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to sit closer

4 to the microphones. Thank you. We're having trouble hearing.


6 Q. Witness, can you please clarify whether the shooting in Brdo and

7 the shooting in Dusina was at the same time.

8 A. Well, round about. At Dusina it was a little earlier, I would

9 say.

10 Q. Coming back to Brdo, who was your commander in Brdo at the time?

11 A. Dragan Rados. Well, all right, he was some sort of deputy of

12 Zvonko's, I think. And there was German too. Ivo Filipovic, he was

13 asked about things too. No, German stayed on down there. Rados was up

14 there at Brdo.

15 Q. And beside him, who was the local commander, the local HVO

16 commander for the Lasva area?

17 A. That was Rajic Zvonko. Zvonko Rajic, he was the main commander.

18 Q. Zvonko Rajic, has he been --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- present when the attack at Brdo started?

21 A. No. Zvonko was down there, Donja Visnjica, Rajici.

22 Q. Was there any time that day when Zvonko Rajic joined you in Brdo

23 or somewhere else?

24 A. Yes. Of course he did, after some time had gone by. Some

25 soldiers stayed down there; others went up.

Page 508

1 Q. Did Zvonko Rajic join you in Brdo?

2 A. Yes. Yes, he did join us. And he died up there. He was killed.

3 Q. Can you inform the Trial Chamber at about what time -- at about

4 how many hours after the commencement of the fighting Zvonko Rajic joined

5 you in Brdo.

6 A. Perhaps an hour, an hour and a half to two hours. An hour and a

7 half, not more than that.

8 Q. At the time Zvonko Rajic joined you, was the fighting still

9 ongoing and continuing?

10 A. Yes, it was. Well, all right, it had calmed down. There was a

11 lull. But up until half past 9.00, then we surrendered and ... came to

12 an agreement.

13 Q. [Microphone not activated] You entered into an agreement. Can

14 you please provide the Trial Chamber --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


17 Q. Can you please provide the Trial Chamber further details on that

18 agreement.

19 A. The agreement with ...? What do you mean?

20 Q. The agreement you were just referring to. And you were referring

21 to an agreement in respect to your surrender.

22 A. Well, about 9.30, from Dusina, Dragan Rados's wife came, I think

23 with Hakanovic, Edin. And Edin stayed down there in the field. Dragan's

24 wife came up to us to convey to us. She came with the civilians. The

25 civilians also came down there, and she came to tell us to surrender and

Page 509

1 to agree on something. And then they agreed somehow that unless we

2 surrender, unless we surrender our rifles and come to an arrangement the

3 civilians would be killed. And when she got there, Zvonko went down the

4 hill for negotiations and allegedly they put their rifles on their backs

5 and we went to the Ivo Lola Ribar primary school and we all got together

6 there.

7 Q. Who was the person who decided on the surrender -- on your

8 surrender?

9 A. Zvonko Rajic. Well, actually, it wasn't surrender. No, we went

10 down there to negotiate and reach an agreement and do what was to be

11 done. Zvonko negotiated. He was the commander.

12 Q. You are referring to certain conditions. Can you please explain

13 to the Trial Chamber what the conditions were about.

14 A. Could you repeat that. I wasn't listening carefully enough.

15 Q. You were referring, Mr. Batinic, to conditions for the surrender.

16 Can you please explain for the Trial Chamber what such conditions were

17 about.

18 A. To surrender, to stop the shooting. However, had I known that

19 that would have happened, they wouldn't have surrendered -- I wouldn't

20 have surrendered. Because when we surrendered, I went down towards the

21 school all together, and there was a Muslim soldier there who was killed

22 and -- yes, he was a soldier. And the four of us picked him up and

23 carried him towards Crna Zemlja and then a cart and horse turned up and

24 they were able to take him away. And when -- but before that, one of the

25 soldiers, Mijo Ljubicic, we sent down there, because there was one other

Page 510

1 soldier of ours left down there in Donja Visnjica to lay down his weapon

2 and to go to the schoolhouse to negotiate, for the television to come in

3 to film it all. But this soldier --

4 Q. Witness, may I please interrupt you at this point. After your

5 surrender, did you still carry -- did the HVO soldiers still carry

6 weapons?

7 A. We did up to Vodica. And then from Dusina, Omer Vehida, somebody

8 informed him, someone from the army and the unit, told him that there

9 would be an ambush at Donja Visnjica, where our soldiers were located.

10 And of course, they cocked their rifles at us. They took off -- well,

11 the bombs they had or whatever, the rifles that we -- the rifles that we

12 had on our shoulders and the other ammunition we were carrying, they took

13 it all off us, and sent us back where the fighting was and we had to go

14 across that area, Crna Zemlja and Usce, not to pass through Donja

15 Visnjica but to take the other route.

16 Q. Where were you escorted by HVO 7th Muslim Brigade soldiers?

17 A. Well, one group stayed down there, and the other group went

18 towards Tuzla, and the ones that escorted us mistreated the late Zvonko

19 and he said -- they said, "Where are your heavy weapons and your mines

20 and hand grenades?" And had we had any heavy weapons, we wouldn't have

21 surrendered in the first place. And of course we started off up there.

22 Q. And how did the soldiers did mistreat Zvonko Rajic?

23 A. Well, they mistreated him -- how shall I say? They wanted him to

24 own up and tell them where he had buried and hidden the weapons, because

25 we didn't -- he thought they -- we didn't only have light weapons and

Page 511

1 mortars, small calibre, 60 millimetre.

2 Q. The mistreatment you are referring to, can you provide the Trial

3 Chamber more detail on this mistreatment and what happened to Zvonko

4 Rajic that day.

5 A. That day, he was killed.

6 Q. And can you describe how he was killed and who did kill him.

7 A. Well, he was killed by Serif Patkovic. And let me explain how

8 this happened. We went up from Vodica towards Brdo. We were returning

9 on the battle ground up there. And we reached the point where you turn

10 towards Vranjaca to the new road, and that's where the late Zvonko

11 succumbed. He couldn't take it psychologically any more; we couldn't

12 either. But what could you do? You were in their hands. And he was

13 trying to escape that way. And several metres on he started running,

14 trying to flee. They took up their rifles. There was a burst of

15 gunfire, two or three of them, and of course they hit him. He was shot

16 in the leg and up here in his shoulder. It was an entrance/exit wound.

17 And he fell down. When they reached him, they started kicking him with

18 their feet. He screamed, of course, when they reached him, they started

19 kicking him with their feet. He screamed, of course, and they said,

20 "Come on, you four. Carry him off." And we started carrying him up the

21 hill towards Brdo. And then further on, further up, and we carried him

22 -- oh, I don't know how many metres. You know the lie of the land there

23 -- up to Brdo. And Zvonko said, "I've been wounded. Can you get some

24 first aid?" And Patkovic took his Skorpio pistol and fire all the

25 ammunition -- all the bullets that were in the pistol, fired at his head.

Page 512

1 And he was dead. We are still carrying him. He was in our hands, arms.

2 We set him down on the ground then and he cocked his rifle at us

3 and he said, "Is there anybody else who's wounded?" So we put him down.

4 They shoved him over, kicked him over towards a tree. And that's where

5 we stood. And then they shot another few bursts of gunfire at him. And

6 that would be that, basically.

7 Q. For verification, you were amongst the four people -- or were you

8 amongst the four people who carried Zvonko Rajic?

9 A. I was. I was.

10 Q. How far away have you been when Serif Patkovic killed Zvonko

11 Rajic?

12 A. I was right next to him. I was holding him. Whether it was by

13 his legs or somewhere else -- but anyway, I was right next to his body.

14 Q. Serif Patkovic, how did you know that it was Serif Patkovic who

15 killed him?

16 A. I didn't know that man, but there are some commanders who knew

17 him. Zvonko Rajic knew him. There was some of our men who knew him. I

18 saw him on television maybe, but otherwise I didn't know him. I never

19 saw him again close up. I may have come across him in Zenica, but I

20 don't know.

21 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, it's about 12.30.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We're going to

23 adjourn for 25 minutes, and we will resume work at five to 1.00.

24 So could the witness please wait and not speak to anyone during

25 the break.

Page 513

1 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] .

4 Mr. Prosecutor, you may continue.

5 Q. Mr. Batinic, before the break, we talked about the murder of

6 Zvonko Rajic. After he has been killed, what happened to you and the

7 other HVO soldiers?

8 A. When Zvonko was killed, I told you they pushed him down to the

9 pear tree. Then they tied us up. Some people had their hands behind

10 their backs, others around their heads. And they took us to Usce from

11 this hill. Do I need to explain how that happened? On the way down?

12 Q. I'm more interested in the treatment or mistreatment. What did

13 the ABiH soldiers do to you?

14 A. There on the spot, you mean?

15 Q. On the spot, on the way down.

16 A. The BH army or the 7th Muslim, but they were all under the same

17 command. It was the 7th Muslim that was there. There was mistreatment.

18 First the man who killed Zvonko asked whether there were any relatives

19 among the four of us that were carrying him, and his brother, Viktor

20 Rajic, was there but he didn't dare say that he was there because if he

21 had, he would have killed him. So people kept quiet. There was some

22 mistreatment and ...

23 Q. This mistreatment, what was it about?

24 A. Curses, you know. "We'll kill you too," and things like that.

25 Somebody would be hit here and there.

Page 514

1 Q. Have you yourself been the object of such mistreatment, such

2 hits?

3 A. Yes. Just then I kept quiet, so they didn't hit me there. No,

4 he just pointed his gun at us, asking whether there was anyone else who

5 was wounded. But as for beatings, I wasn't beaten then.

6 Q. On that day, where have you been taken to?

7 A. We were taken to the music school in Zenica.

8 Q. And who took you to the Zenica Music School?

9 A. Soldiers who happened to be there. There was a local too. There

10 was a bus waiting for us at the confluence of the two rivers.

11 Q. These locals who you are referring to, were they soldiers?

12 A. Just a moment, please. This man who escorted us, Batan, he was

13 wearing civilian clothes. But I didn't see whether he had a rifle. He

14 probably did.

15 Q. Were you forced to be brought to the Zenica Music School?

16 A. They tied us up. That was by force. They -- when they tied us

17 up mind our backs, and some people behind the neck, of course it was by

18 force. If he has a rifle if his hand, you have to do as he says.

19 Q. Once you arrived in the Zenica Music School, what happened to

20 you?

21 A. Then the interrogations started. They took us into a hall, a

22 rather large room. There was a stage there. There were chairs put

23 there. We sat down and one by one went upstairs. I suppose he was

24 deputy commander, who interrogated us, asking what happened. Shall I

25 continue?

Page 515

1 Q. Yes, please carry on.

2 A. When it was my turn -- first of all, when we were sitting on the

3 stage, a man walked in and slapped each and every one of us. One of them

4 did offer some cigarettes. And when it was my turn to go upstairs for

5 interrogation, I went into a room and then they asked us, "Where are your

6 weapons, your mortars? Where have you dug them? Are they in the caves?

7 Where are they?" Then I said 10 German marks -- I had 10 German marks on

8 me and I handed them over. They were saying that they would kill us if

9 we didn't tell the truth.

10 Q. You were hit. Was there any other form of mistreatment of you or

11 any of the other detainees?

12 A. I can talk of myself in that room. But people went in one by

13 one. We didn't go in there all together. First it was in order. I

14 can't remember which one I was in order. There was mistreatment there --

15 not there. They beat in another room. The beating was in another room.

16 Q. And have you been the victim of such a beating?

17 A. Oh, yes. I wish I hadn't been. In this other room that they

18 took us to, then they beat shoulders and chests most. Do you want to

19 have water in your knee? We spent some time there. Later on they

20 transferred us to where we would be staying, and we stayed there for

21 three or four days -- four days.

22 Q. Coming back to the Zenica Music School, the beatings, can you

23 provide more details to the Trial Chamber. What were the means -- by

24 what means were you beaten?

25 A. I can explain. Pieces of wood about this size, about 80

Page 516

1 centimetres long, in the form of the bats they use in that game, and they

2 hit us with it on the back, and they also kicked us. My chest was all

3 black and blue and my shoulders, my eyebrow had been slit when one of

4 them kicked me. That was also black and blue. Of course, sometimes they

5 would hit me with a rifle too.

6 Q. Witness, do you know whether other detainees have also been

7 beaten?

8 A. Oh, yes, they did. Kristo was there, this other colleague of

9 mine. He was there. They were beaten even worse. He would give in

10 immediately. He'd start crying. I couldn't cry.

11 Q. Was there anybody else who has been beaten you can recall?

12 A. Oh, yes. There were five of us there -- five or six -- six of

13 us.

14 Q. And were they all beaten?

15 A. Yes, they were beaten. I was the youngest among them. I was 26

16 years old and 4 months.

17 Q. Do you know whether they have been beaten using the same means to

18 beat them?

19 A. Yes. I can't talk about someone else. That other person will

20 tell you what he was beaten with.

21 Q. You described your wounds. Have you seen similar wounds

22 inflicted on other people?

23 A. Oh, yes. Yes. In the music school I was beaten only that one,

24 that evening. They didn't beat me down there. Others were beaten. The

25 locals would tell certain people what they had done, and they -- and they

Page 517

1 should be beaten. But one colleague of mine saved me. He came with

2 friends. Maybe he also came to beat. But when he saw me, he said,

3 "Leave him alone." And after that, no one beat me again in the music

4 school. Only that evening, when I was up there in the room for

5 interrogation.

6 Q. And who was actually beating you? Who were the people beating

7 the prisoners?

8 A. The prisoners, they were all from the outside. There was one, a

9 colleague of Viktor Rajic's, who used to work with him, and this one who

10 recognised me, he could also testify who did the beating, but I didn't

11 know those people.

12 Q. From outside, you are referring to the detainees; right?

13 A. No. No. No, the soldiers who were beating us. They were not

14 locals. I didn't know them. According to stories, apparently they had

15 come from Krajina, maybe from another municipality. I don't know. I

16 didn't know them.

17 Q. Witness, do you know who operated the Zenica Music School as a

18 detention facility?

19 A. I'm not quite sure, but where they interrogated us there was

20 someone with a little beard. Now, whether his name was Jasmin, I'm not

21 so sure.

22 Q. Did the guards wear military uniforms?

23 A. Yes, they did have military uniforms. They took off boots or

24 jackets from our soldiers; then they were dressed properly. Some people

25 had civilian clothes; somebody -- some wore jackets.

Page 518

1 Q. Mr. Batinic, do you remember that you have been interviewed by

2 investigators -- by an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor of

3 the Tribunal?

4 A. Yes. Yes, I do. I remember. In 1999.

5 Q. Do you recall when in 1999?

6 A. I had started building my house. I still haven't finished it.

7 Yes. I can't give you the date. It was in November -- no, no, maybe

8 October, something like that, when we had this conversation.

9 Q. I will now show you on the screen in both in English and B/C/S

10 your statement you've given. Can you identify your signature on this

11 statement, please?

12 A. I can. I can sign it, if necessary.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated] Yes,

15 the Defence.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We don't know why the Prosecutor

17 is showing this statement to the witness. The Prosecutor should lay the

18 foundations first if he is going to proclaim the witness is a hostile

19 witness. I see no reason why a witness who testified for this Tribunal

20 should be shown his statement. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I assume that the

22 Prosecutor is going to respond to your question, but he certainly wants

23 to tender this statement.

24 Mr. Prosecutor.

25 MR. WITHOPF: Yes. I wish to do so. And I wish to use the 1999

Page 519

1 statement for the purpose to allow the witness to clarify who operated

2 the 7th -- the Zenica Music School.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we object. The

4 Prosecutor has no legal basis to show the statement to the witness or to

5 tender it to the Trial Chamber, except to disqualify the witness.

6 MR. WITHOPF: We wish to refresh --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. Prosecutor,

8 please.

9 MR. WITHOPF: We wish to refresh the witness's memory.

10 Q. Witness, we will now show you page 6 of the statement. In the

11 second paragraph from the top, the second sentence reads as follows - and

12 you please compare in the B/C/S -- would you please have a look at the

13 B/C/S version - There is written "The two officers contained 7th Muslim

14 Brigade flags." Can you read this? It's now highlighted on your screen.

15 A. Shall I read it?

16 Q. Yes, please. Read the portion which you find on your screen

17 right now.

18 A. "With the completion of the questioning, I was taken to another

19 office where the same procedure commenced. The two officers contained

20 7th Muslim Brigade flags. After the beating, I was taken away and

21 offered some food. It was about 11.00 p.m. when the beatings stopped."

22 Q. Thank you. Do you recall having said this to the investigator of

23 the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I object once again, Your

25 Honours. Pursuant to Rule 92 bis, it is clearly stated when and for what

Page 520

1 reasons a statement may be used may be used and a statement cannot be

2 used to prove anything other -- it cannot be used to prove the

3 responsibility. As this affects the responsibility of my client, the

4 Prosecutor is showing this statement contrary to the Rules and I appeal

5 to the Chamber to sustain our objection.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The problem raised by the

7 Defence is the following: The witness heard by the Office of the

8 Prosecutor testified that during the interrogation he saw two flags.

9 Therefore, the Prosecution wants the witness to confirm what he said in

10 his written statement, as he signed that document at the time. The

11 Defence is challenging this approach, and in fact it is a minor point.

12 The Prosecution could easily have asked the witness whether during the

13 interrogation he saw these two flags. The witness would have said, "Yes,

14 I remember it," and then the Prosecution could have shown him this

15 document. Actually, the objection of the Defence is quite negligible.

16 It is simply a matter of procedure which boils down to the same because

17 in any event what the Prosecution is trying to show is that the witness

18 saw certain material elements during his interrogation. Is that indeed

19 the position of the Prosecution?

20 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution, Mr. President, will not tender the

21 statement into evidence. What I'm currently doing is to refresh the

22 memory of the witness. The statement has been taken in 1999; at that

23 point in time, four years ago, the witness may have had a better

24 recollection as he does have today.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, you are not

Page 521

1 asking to tender this statement into evidence.

2 Maybe the Defence will ask for that. Mr. Bourgon.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. With

4 your permission, I think that this is a question which is of quite

5 considerable importance today. We are at the beginning of this trial,

6 and I think it is important to have a good understanding of the way in

7 which we are going to question all the witnesses in this Chamber.

8 When a witness is called to testify viva voce, it is because

9 there's a reason to call him because he's going to tell the Chamber the

10 things he remembers and not what he learnt from his statement -- or taken

11 from his statement. Before the witness appears here, the Prosecution

12 meets with the witness and can even talk to him and remind him of things

13 before he appears in the chamber, a procedure that is quite exceptional

14 in many systems.

15 Here we have a witness appearing before you, and they wish to

16 remind him on the basis of a statement, to refresh his memory. The only

17 permissible procedure of refreshing the memory of a witness is to refer

18 to personal notes, if he has any notes that belong to him, a document

19 that belongs to him. In that case, the permission of the Chamber may be

20 requested to -- for the witness to refresh his memory on the basis of

21 notes that he took himself. And then those notes may be admitted into

22 evidence.

23 In the case of a statement given by the witness to the Office of

24 the Prosecutor, the only -- when such a statement may be used, in our

25 submission, is if the Prosecution wants to declare the witness hostile.

Page 522

1 If the witness's answers are in contrast to what he said in the

2 statement, then the Prosecutor can say to the Chamber that he wishes this

3 witness to be declared hostile because he's saying things that are in

4 contradiction to what he said then. So he may declare the witness

5 hostile. This is quite different from what is happening in the

6 cross-examination, because the purpose of the cross-examination or one of

7 those aims is to contradict the witness with the help of his statement.

8 But here we are dealing with the examination-in-chief, and we are -- we

9 submit, with all due respect, that the Prosecution may not use a

10 statement of the witness to refresh his memory.

11 An example that you gave, Mr. President, with all due respect,

12 you said that the Prosecutor could have asked him, "Did you see flags in

13 the room?" However, we could immediately object because we could say

14 that that is a tendentious or leading question. To suggest to the

15 witness that he saw flags is a question that cannot normally be put in an

16 examination-in-chief.

17 For all these reasons, Mr. President, we request that you make a

18 ruling regarding the use of witness statements, and this is a matter of

19 principle that goes quite beyond this rather minor matter of fact. But

20 as we are at the beginning of the trial, I think it is important to have

21 a ruling so as -- so that we might know why the use of a statement may be

22 allowed to refresh the witness's memory. It doesn't matter whether we

23 are talking about the Anglo-Saxon system or the German or Romanic system,

24 but we do submit, with due respect, that such statements cannot be used

25 to refresh the memory of the witness.

Page 523

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. So the Defence is

2 telling us that in its view the Prosecution should address questions to

3 the witness without using any documents and that the witness should

4 spontaneously testify in response to questions on facts of which he was a

5 direct witness, on the basis of questions put to him, and at the same

6 time produce -- to produce a written document in which the witness has

7 already given his position would risk, in the position of the Defence,

8 to -- risking -- to induce the witness to respond in a manner in which

9 this would be prejudicial to the accused. Therefore, the Defence wishes

10 the examination to take place orally and then, within the framework of

11 the cross-examination, the Defence may put questions relying possibly on

12 documents, as it did so with the previous witness, and that then the

13 Prosecution may on the basis of Rule 85 re-examine the witness.

14 So regarding these submissions of the Defence. Before the

15 Chamber rules, what is the position of the Prosecution?

16 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, the Defence is raising a number of

17 issues that are missing the point. This is not an issue related to Rule

18 92 bis. We are not tendering the prior statement, the statement into

19 evidence. It is not a hostile, obviously -- it's obviously not a hostile

20 witness. There are no contradictions. The witness was not in a position

21 to detail, to describe for the Trial Chamber which military units have

22 operated the Zenica Music School. In his statement given four years ago

23 -- given more than four years ago to the investigator of the Office of

24 the Prosecutor, he obviously had a better recollection, and I am -- I am

25 about to ask him whether this recollection in 1999 reflects his memory of

Page 524

1 the facts in 1999. And that's all what I'm doing.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As it is 1.30 -- and how much

3 more time do you need for your questions?

4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, I anticipate that I can finish

5 within the next ten minutes.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ten minutes? In that case, the

7 cross-examination can start tomorrow, and then the witness has to come

8 back. More so, as I understand there's a problem with tomorrow's

9 witness, who is stuck at Sarajevo airport because of the fog. So in any

10 event, this witness will come back tomorrow. And in the meantime, the

11 Chamber will be able to respond to the question raised.

12 Continue your examination, but without using the written

13 statement.


15 Q. The prisoners, the detainees in the Zenica Music School, how many

16 were there?

17 A. You mean the ones that were brought there or whether there were

18 any more civilians? As far as the soldiers are concerned, six.

19 Q. And how many civilians? You were referring to civilians.

20 A. The civilians, when the conflict started in Lasva, or the Dusina

21 hill, down there the Croats were stopped. They stopped a man I knew from

22 Drvuse. He started out in his Mercedes, an old type of Mercedes --

23 Q. May I interrupt you. Witness, how many civilians were imprisoned

24 in the Zenica Music School --

25 A. Two or three, thereabout. Three or two.

Page 525

1 Q. And do you know about their --

2 A. While we were there.

3 Q. And do you know about their ethnicity?

4 A. Oh, they were Croats, yes, Catholics.

5 Q. They were all Croats or were there also Serbs?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Leading question. I

7 object to the leading form the question took.

8 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours --

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 MR. WITHOPF: In my understanding, it's not a leading question.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Rephrase your question, please.


13 Q. Were there detainees from other ethnicities than Croat ethnicity?

14 A. I'm not sure. Because Drvuse is further away, further from

15 Lasva. I knew this one man.

16 Q. This one man, was he of a different ethnicity than the Croat

17 ethnicity?

18 A. What? Croat, he was, yes.

19 Q. You were mentioning some minutes ago that at some point in time

20 you have been transferred. For how long have you been imprisoned in the

21 Zenica Music School?

22 A. Three and a half to four days. We weren't there for one whole

23 day. Then they transferred us. They brought in a kombi van to the KP

24 Dom, a Renault 5.

25 Q. The KP Dom, where is it located, the KP Dom you're referring to?

Page 526

1 A. Well, you go to Crna, and then further up, to the exit on Zenica

2 on the right-hand side, taking the old road.

3 Q. For clarification, are you referring to the Zenica KP Dom?

4 A. Yes, the Zenica KP Dom, where we were transferred to by them.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness.

6 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, this concludes my

7 examination-in-chief.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That completes the

9 examination-in-chief. I suggest that the Defence should take the floor

10 tomorrow and start the cross-examination, because we've just got a few

11 minutes left of this session. But as we do have, in fact, ten minutes

12 left, I'm going to ask the Defence would they like to go ahead and start

13 their cross-examination today or wait for tomorrow.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

15 follow your proposal and begin tomorrow and have our cross-examination

16 take place in one lump.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 And what about the Kubura Defence? May we have their views.

19 MR. DIXON: Likewise, Your Honour. We will, if there are to be

20 any questions, do those tomorrow, after the team for Mr. Hadzihasanovic.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf.

22 MR. WITHOPF: I understand, Mr. President, that the Chamber is

23 aware that we have, due to weather conditions in Sarajevo, a bit of a

24 problem to bring the witness tomorrow for the early hours. The witness

25 will, at the earliest, arrive at 10.00 -- will be in the country at the

Page 527

1 earliest at 10.00. So we suggest to commence with the next witness not

2 earlier than by noon tomorrow.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So -- the third

4 witness? Is that what you mean? You're going to bring in your third

5 witness?

6 MR. WITHOPF: I'm referring to the third witness. Correct.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. At all events, we

8 begin tomorrow morning at 9.00 with the cross-examination by the Defence,

9 and it will last approximately an hour and a half. With the breaks, that

10 will make it time for you to bring your third witness in. So before we

11 take up our session -- when we take up our session tomorrow, the Chamber

12 will have a ruling with respect to the queries made by the Defence

13 regarding the documents and the statement taken by the OTP simultaneously

14 with the oral testimony. So we'll make our ruling tomorrow and give it

15 to you before we start tomorrow morning.

16 Witness, you will come back here tomorrow morning at 9.00 for the

17 continuation of your testimony, and you will be answering questions put

18 to you by the Defence teams of the two accused. Have you understood?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask a question, please? May

22 I be allowed to ask something?

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the flight is concerned,

25 will that be all right? Because my flight -- my return flight to

Page 528

1 Sarajevo is scheduled for tomorrow. Will that be all right?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What time is your flight?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 10.30, something like that, from

4 Amsterdam airport. If it's all right, no problem there.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is not up to the Trial

6 Chamber, of course, to see to material issues of that nature regarding

7 your return flight, but you should ask the relevant services. If we

8 begin the cross-examination tomorrow morning at 9.00, you'll still be

9 here at 10.30, so you won't be able to make your flight at 10.30. So it

10 is up to the registrar -- Registry to sort the matter out. And of

11 course, Madam Registrar, will see to that question. But we will see you

12 back here tomorrow morning at 9.00.

13 Having said that, I adjourn the meeting until tomorrow morning.

14 --- Whereupon the proceedings adjourned at

15 1.35 p.m. to be reconvened on Thursday,

16 the 4th day of December, 2003 at 9.00 a.m.