Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1355

1 Tuesday, 13 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 I would like to have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Mr. Chester Stamp, Ms. Tecla Benjamin,

13 Ms. Kimberly Fleming, and Mr. Ekkehard Withopf.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 And the appearances for the Defence, which has not changed.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. My name

17 is Edina Residovic. I represent General Hadzihasanovic. Stephane

18 Bourgon is the co-counsel and Ms. Mirna Milanovic is our legal assistant.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

20 Mr. Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr. Mulalic, our legal

21 assistant, represent Mr. Kubura.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. The

23 Trial Chamber would like to greet everyone present in the courtroom.

24 Before we start hearing the witness, I would like to go into

25 closed session.

Page 1356

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Page 1358

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 I would like to ask the usher to bring the witness into the

5 courtroom.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day. I would like to ask

8 you whether you can hear the interpretation.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've been called here as a

11 witness for the Prosecution. Could you please give me your first and

12 last name.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zdravko Pranjes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me your date of

15 birth, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 12th of July, 1962.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

20 profession?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a driver, but I am involved in

22 cattle raising.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1983, what was your

24 profession? That's ten years ago.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I was in Switzerland.

Page 1359

1 I returned in 1992.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Where do you live

3 right now?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Daruvar, in Croatia.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You will now read

6 out the solemn declaration. Could you please read it out.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You can sit down.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, which is to

14 your right, will put a series of questions to you now. When they have

15 finished with their questions, Defence counsel, which is to your left,

16 will cross-examine you. The Prosecution then might ask you other

17 questions. And the Judges, who are before you, may at any time, if they

18 feel it is necessary, in accordance with the Rules of Procedure and

19 Evidence, the Judges will then ask you questions too. Have you

20 understood how the procedure will unfold?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 So the Prosecution may take the floor.

24 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

Page 1360

1 Q. Mr. Pranjes, what municipality and village do you originally hail

2 from?

3 A. The village of Maljine in Travnik municipality.

4 Q. That is where you were born and raised?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us about the ethnic breakdown of the population of

7 Maljine?

8 A. Half of the population was Muslim and half Croats, but there were

9 more Muslims.

10 Q. Now, you told us that -- I didn't understand an answer you gave

11 about where you were in 1983. I think that was the question. Did you do

12 national service in the JNA?

13 A. Yes, in Gospic.

14 Q. When did you complete that?

15 A. I went in 1981, and I returned in 1982.

16 Q. You completed it in 1982?

17 A. 1982, yes.

18 Q. And after that --

19 A. After that, I guarded sheep. Then I bought a truck, and I worked

20 with the truck. And I then went to Switzerland.

21 Q. What period did you live and work in Switzerland? Between what

22 years?

23 A. I went in the spring of 1990, and I returned in 1992. I was

24 there for three seasons.

25 Q. Now, in about October 1992, did you join the HVO?

Page 1361

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which unit were you a member of?

3 A. Frankopan.

4 Q. That is the Frankopan Brigade?

5 A. The Frankopan Brigade, Guca Gora -- Guca Gora.

6 Q. Now, the village of Maljine that you're from, that is a village

7 in the district, in the general district of Guca Gora?

8 A. Yes. It's 2 and a half kilometres from Guca Gora.

9 Q. Now, when you joined the Frankopan Brigade, where was this unit

10 deployed, in respect to your military duties?

11 A. I was in the village, above the village. That's where we went on

12 patrol temporarily. And then above the village there was a place called

13 Zahumlje. It was deployed up there.

14 Q. Can you recall when you were deployed at Zahumlje?

15 A. That was that autumn. We'd been deployed up there. We'd go up

16 for a week, and then we'd spend a week at 2/6:45 home.

17 Q. Were you still deployed there in May of 1993?

18 A. We were up in Kosarici, a little further on, about 3 or 4

19 kilometres. We went a little further up. It was another site. That's

20 where we were for Christmas and New Year, at that other site, a little

21 further up towards the Serbs.

22 Q. Okay. I'd like to take you now to early spring of 1993. Where

23 were you deployed then?

24 A. At the beginning of spring, we were still --

25 Q. I'm sorry. Excuse me.

Page 1362

1 MR. STAMP: Yes, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Witness, I'd like to

3 intervene to read a Rule from the Rules of Procedure and Evidence with

4 regard to testimony. You have just taken an oath to tell all the truth.

5 The proceedings allow a witness to refuse to make a statement that might

6 incriminate the witness. So if there is a question that you may dislike,

7 you can refuse to answer the question. But the Trial Chamber can oblige

8 you in such a case to respond to such a question. But in such a case, if

9 you do respond to that question, following an order from the Trial

10 Chamber, the testimony that you give can't be used at a subsequent date

11 against you. Have you understood what I said?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it is my duty to

14 remind you that a witness has rights, and given the questions put to you,

15 this is a situation that might arise.

16 I would like to ask the Prosecution to proceed.

17 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Did you remain at your defensive lines at the place you had

19 mentioned up until the spring of 1993, or did you relocate?

20 A. We didn't stay there until spring. We relocated. I don't know

21 exactly when. I couldn't tell you the date. But there were some

22 incidents with the Muslims, and we then withdrew from that place to the

23 village.

24 Q. To which village?

25 A. Between Bikose and Maljine. We formed some lines there.

Page 1363

1 Q. And by "lines," I take it you mean lines of defence to protect

2 the village in case of attack? Is that what you mean?

3 A. Yes, yes, defence lines.

4 Q. Now, on the morning of the 4th -- sorry, of the 8th of June,

5 1993, were you so engaged on these lines of defence?

6 A. Yes, I was up there at Greda.

7 Q. How far is this from where you lived in Maljine?

8 A. It's about 200 metres away.

9 Q. Now, that morning, at about 4.00 or 5.00, did the Bosnian Muslim

10 army attack your positions?

11 A. Yes, at 5.00. That's when they attacked our position.

12 Q. And did your lines hold, or were they broken?

13 A. They were broken, and some went to Guca Gora and others to the

14 village.

15 Q. When you say "some went to Guca Gora and others to the village,"

16 by that, can I take it that you mean some of the defenders, including

17 yourself, retreated to Guca Gora and to the village of Maljine?

18 A. Those of us who were nearer to the village, they went to the

19 village; and those who were up there, further up, they could flee through

20 the woods, down towards Guca Gora.

21 Q. Where did you go to?

22 A. I descended to the village.

23 Q. Did you go to anywhere in particular in the village?

24 A. Well, I reached a stream, and then I went along the stream as far

25 as my house, and then observed a bit, and then I went up to where the

Page 1364

1 hospital was located.

2 Q. Which hospital was this? Could you briefly describe it for us.

3 A. It was a house, and there were wounded people in the cellar, and

4 my father and some other people were there. My wife was there too. They

5 had taken shelter there.

6 Q. You said it was a house. Who operated a hospital at this house?

7 A. Ljubica Jakovic.

8 Q. Now, did you retreat to this hospital alone, or were you with

9 anyone?

10 A. Jako Tadic was with me.

11 Q. And tell us where exactly you retreated to. Did you retreat to

12 the hospital itself or to anywhere in the vicinity of the hospital?

13 A. Well, just before the entrance to the hospital, it's a sort of

14 cellar, and then there are two doors by the hospital, next to the

15 hospital.

16 Q. Did the Bosnian Muslim army advance to where you had retreated

17 to?

18 A. Yes. They got up there. There was shooting down in the village.

19 They shot at those they would see. They would shoot at the roofs and all

20 around. There was shooting. I couldn't exactly see what they hit.

21 They'd raised a flag, some kind of a red flag, and there was shooting.

22 Q. Did the Muslim soldiers or the persons in the area where the

23 Muslim soldiers were call out to you and the other retreating personnel,

24 HVO personnel?

25 A. They called out to us and asked us to surrender.

Page 1365

1 Q. And was that done? And if so, how was that arranged?

2 A. Ljubica Jakovic and Kata Blazevic went to negotiate with them

3 behind the hospital. And when they returned, they said we had to hand

4 over our weapons and that they should take the weapons over there.

5 That's what happened. We gave them our weapons. They took the weapons

6 there. And later they descended to the village.

7 Q. When they descended to the village, where were you and the other

8 HVO personnel gathered?

9 A. That hospital was at the top of the village, and we set off from

10 there towards the centre, and from the centre we set off in the direction

11 of Mehurici.

12 Q. Okay. But before you set off towards Mehurici, where were you

13 gathered when the Bosnian Muslim army descended into the village, after

14 you had surrendered?

15 A. Part of us were at the centre, by the road, and the rest of us

16 were still up there, because we didn't know what was going on in the

17 centre. And when the BH army soldiers went down where we were, we

18 collected -- we rallied there and we brought out a woman who was wounded

19 from one of the houses. We took her to the hospital there.

20 Q. Now --

21 A. And afterwards, they went round collecting the cars. And there

22 was some questioning going on. And then we moved down towards the

23 centre; that is to say, the group that was at the centre. We left the

24 centre and went out onto the hillside, beside a village, waiting for

25 somebody to find a child that was lost. And then we moved on towards

Page 1366

1 Mehurici.

2 Q. Very well. Before you leave to Mehurici, let's go back to the

3 point that you were at when the Bosnian Muslim army descended into the

4 village. When you were taken into custody by the Bosnian Muslim army,

5 did you observe who was in charge of the unit that you surrendered to?

6 A. There was a blond, young man. I think he was the person in

7 charge. Everybody listened to him. So I assumed that he was the main

8 person there.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. There's quite

10 obviously some difference in the Bosnian translation than the transcript,

11 because the translation we received was that the witness was taken into

12 custody, whereas the witness never spoke about custody of any kind.

13 However, the translation into Bosnian was different. So my criticism has

14 no -- my objection has no purpose, because the witness and I heard

15 something different, something that the Prosecutor actually didn't ask

16 him. Thank you.

17 MR. STAMP: Well, I thought that I -- I did use the word

18 "custody," but I thought that if he surrendered to someone, he would be

19 in the custody of the persons to whom he surrendered. But never mind. I

20 think I could rephrase it and we could move on from there.

21 Q. What I wish to --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Concerning interpretation

23 problems, I should like to indicate that the difficulty is that we have a

24 witness who is expressing himself in B/C/S and then you have a

25 translation into English and one into French. And sometimes, like you,

Page 1367

1 when I look at the transcript, the transcript has some additional words

2 to it which I did not hear spoken in the French language, in the French

3 interpretation.

4 Let me give you an example. At one particular point, he was

5 saying that in front of the hospital there was a flag, and I saw in

6 English the word "red flag," a red flag; whereas, the French translation,

7 interpretation, didn't have any mention of a red flag. So I don't know

8 what he actually said in the B/C/S language. Did he say "red flag," in

9 B/C/S, which was translated into the English with "red flag"? But

10 anyway, in my French interpretation all I heard was the word "flag" and

11 not "red flag" so sometimes there is lack of precision.

12 So if you notice these, please let us know as you did a moment

13 ago, so we can correct that and avoid going up the wrong road. Because,

14 of course, interpretation is sometimes be a problem. Of course, mostly

15 there are no difficulties, but difficulties may arise.

16 So if you see any problems, please let us know. And of course,

17 there are problems between the B/C/S, English, and French. So if you

18 notice any differences, please let us know. Thank you for your

19 observations.

20 I'd like to give the floor to the Prosecution again now, please.

21 MR. STAMP: I'm obliged, Mr. President.

22 Q. Very well. You said that a person appeared to be in charge of

23 those to whom you surrendered, because they seemed to be listening to him

24 and obeying him. Did this person appear to be in charge of the Bosnian

25 army unit? Well, how was he dressed? Do you recall?

Page 1368

1 A. He was wearing a green camouflage uniform, and he had a green

2 band round his left arm, and he was wounded. He had a white band round

3 his head, and you could see that the bandage or band was bloody.

4 Q. And how were his subordinates attired?

5 A. They were wearing uniforms too, and all of them had bands. I

6 didn't notice any separate insignia in the man who was in command or the

7 soldiers. Generally speaking, they were dressed in uniforms, camouflage

8 uniforms with these green bands on their left upper arms.

9 Q. You described them as members of the BH army.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is this -- well, on what basis do you describe them as such? Why

12 do you say they were members of the BH army?

13 A. I saw this on television, and they were coming from a Muslim

14 village, so they couldn't be anybody else. It must have been them.

15 Q. Could you just explain. What do you mean you saw this on

16 television? What do you mean by that?

17 A. I saw their army. I had seen them before that. There were lines

18 up there. There was a truce going on. So we played football. So we

19 weren't far away from each other, and I could see them on a daily basis.

20 And afterwards, when the attack took place, they would say

21 "Allah-U-Ekber." That's the term they'd use. And they came from the

22 direction of Mehurici and Suhi Dol, and Donje Maljine too.

23 Q. Thank you. You said that they proceeded to take motor vehicles

24 from the village. Could you describe to us what you mean by that.

25 A. Well, there was a car there, a Lada make. It was in my garage

Page 1369

1 but belonged to another man. And they told me to drive the car out of

2 the garage, and then they took it over and drove it off themselves. And

3 they took a cousin's truck away too in the same way. It was an orange

4 Mercedes. Then I saw a white Golf, which was driven off towards Mehurici

5 too, by a Mujahedin. He had a sort of ginger beard and was tall, and he

6 got stuck in the mud and we had to pull him out, as we had -- as we were

7 passing by that way on our way to Mehurici.

8 Q. Who took your car -- or who took the car that was parked in your

9 garage? I'm not talking about the name or individual identity of the

10 person who took it, but can you say which army that person was a part of,

11 that is, the person who took the car that was parked in your garage?

12 A. The person was a member of the BH army.

13 Q. And the truck?

14 A. The truck was driven off later, not then, not while I was there.

15 Q. Now, having surrendered to these members of the BH army, did they

16 take you and the other HVO personnel anywhere?

17 A. Yes. They're the ones who took us away.

18 Q. To where?

19 A. They took us to -- towards Mehurici. Yes, Mehurici.

20 Q. I think you said earlier - and correct me if I'm wrong - that

21 they took you from the place where you surrendered to the centre of the

22 village, where there were other people gathered?

23 A. Yes, that's right, the centre of the village. It's not a big

24 village. And then we went off in the direction of Mehurici.

25 Q. About how many people were gathered at the centre of the village

Page 1370












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1371

1 when you went there?

2 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps 200. They were already at the

3 exit to the village, leaving the village. Now, how many people exactly,

4 I can't say. Perhaps 200. They were on the road. They were already on

5 their way to Mehurici. Some of them had -- were already up on the hill.

6 But there were 2 to 3 hundred of us. I don't know exactly. That would

7 be the rough number.

8 Q. So 2 do 3 hundred of us. Were these Croatian persons, Croatian

9 prisoners?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Were there only HVO, or were there civilians amongst this crowd

12 of 2 to 3 hundred?

13 A. Well, yes, civilians -- well, when I say "civilians," I mean

14 women, children, young girls. And then there were us, the army. And a

15 lot of them were in civilian clothes, a lot of the soldiers.

16 Q. So you all were forced to set off in the direction of Mehurici.

17 How did you travel?

18 A. Yes. Well, we travelled in a line of four or five all behind

19 each other on foot.

20 Q. Thank you. And were you escorted on armed soldiers when you

21 travelled to Mehurici?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Please, can you tell us which army or which unit the soldiers

24 that escorted you to Mehurici were from.

25 A. They were soldiers of the BH army, the ones who had captured us.

Page 1372

1 They were the ones who escorted us.

2 Q. Now, while you were travelling to Mehurici, did anyone or any

3 group join your group that was travelling there?

4 A. From Donje Maljine, there was a man from there who came up to us,

5 and there were some Muslims from Mehurici and Suhi Dol who had come out.

6 There were some children, aged about 15. They were carrying some --

7 something and then they went back down.

8 We came to the village of Poljanice, and a woman came out and

9 gave us some water to drink, and the children had some of these

10 old-fashioned guns.

11 Q. Did the column or the group of people going towards Mehurici

12 remain as one group, or were you separated?

13 A. Most of them stayed intact. That is to say, there was one group

14 until the Mujahedin stopped us.

15 Q. And I take it that at that point you were separated.

16 A. We waited for each other, for the groups above the village. And

17 then we moved off together, in one column and didn't separate after that,

18 when we joined up. And when we were 1 to 2 hundred metres away from the

19 Mujahedin houses, where they had their positions, two men came up to us

20 and took away one civilian. Actually, he was a soldier. He was wearing

21 a military uniform. They separated him from the group, and then the army

22 took him off.

23 And then the Mujahedin came up in front of us, taking us by

24 surprise. They were wearing masks and caps on their heads. They stopped

25 us all. And then they separated us one by one there, military-able men.

Page 1373

1 When they had separated the military-able men from amongst our group,

2 that's what happened. We were all together until they separated the

3 military-able men.

4 Q. Okay. We have to examine this in a little bit more detail. Can

5 you say where you were at the point when the Mujahedin appeared and

6 separated you -- separated the military-aged men from the body of the

7 group.

8 A. I was in the middle, the middle column.

9 Q. Where was your column located at? What part of a road? Do you

10 remember?

11 A. I said that it was above the house where the Mujahedin were,

12 their camp. So we had to pass by that house of theirs. And several

13 hundred metres before we came to the house, the Mujahedin stopped us.

14 Q. Now, when they stopped you, were you still being escorted by the

15 BH soldiers that you had surrendered to?

16 A. Yes, that's where they were, and that's where the BH soldiers

17 were.

18 Q. How many Mujahedin participated in this separation?

19 A. When they crossed over the fence onto the road where we were, I

20 saw four or five Mujahedin, and there were just as many who were wearing

21 camouflage uniforms. They cocked their rifles, stood there preparing

22 themselves, and then the soldiers backed off.

23 Q. How were these Mujahedin dressed?

24 A. Well, they had some sort of green uniforms, and they had beards,

25 dark beards, big beards.

Page 1374

1 Q. Now, I'd like you to describe exactly and precisely what happened

2 at the point when they appeared. You said they came over a fence where

3 the column was walking. What happened when they came over the fence?

4 A. When they crossed the hedge, in actual fact, you could hear rifle

5 shots, and they told them to back off. They told the BH soldiers to back

6 off and that they would take the military-able men. They let the women

7 and children go, but they took us military-able men back. And then more

8 of them came up, wearing camouflage uniforms and masked. I don't know

9 how many exactly.

10 Q. Did the persons who were not taken by the Mujahedin, did they

11 continue in the direction of Miletici?

12 A. In the direction of Mehurici, yes. And when they separated us,

13 the civilians - that is to say, the women and children and elderly - went

14 on, but we were stopped. And we had to about-turn, to go back. They

15 told us to go back, whereas the women, children, and elderly were able to

16 continue on their way towards Mehurici.

17 Q. About how many persons were separated from the main group? Just

18 an estimate.

19 A. Well, between 30 and 40 of us.

20 Q. Were there -- were there only men who were separated, or were

21 there any women --

22 A. There was one young girl too. She was wearing a camouflage

23 jacket, and she had a sort of red cross or red band on her arm.

24 Q. Do you know her name?

25 A. Ana Pranjes.

Page 1375

1 Q. Can you recall any of the names of any other persons that were

2 taken by the main group by the Mujahedin?

3 A. There was Stipan Volic; Ivo Volic, his father; Jako Tavic,

4 Marijanovic Bero, Puselja Zeljo, and Slavko Kramar; Mijo Tavic; Stipo

5 Tavic.

6 There were some other people from some other villages, but I

7 don't know their names.

8 Q. Very well. Could you describe to us what happened after you were

9 separated. Were you taken anywhere?

10 A. We were taken through the village of Poljanice. And there were

11 some wounded people there from my village at a bend in the road. And

12 Stipo Tavic was also wounded, and he had some rods in his legs. He had

13 been wounded several months previously. So they separated him, and we

14 had to carry him for almost the whole way.

15 When we went round the bend, we saw -- we heard shooting, and I

16 assumed that they had killed them. But we had to carry along our

17 journey, along the road.

18 Q. The persons -- the wounded persons you saw from your village, had

19 you seen them before on that day?

20 A. They were in the hospital. They were in the hospital that day --

21 or, rather, that morning.

22 Q. When you saw them later on on the road, as you just described,

23 were they being guarded by any soldiers or any persons?

24 A. Yes. There were two or three soldiers there next to them, and

25 the wounded persons were either lying down or sitting down beside them.

Page 1376

1 Q. These two or three soldiers, which army were they from?

2 A. I couldn't say.

3 Q. Can you say --

4 A. But I think it was their army that captured them, although I'm

5 not claiming anything.

6 Q. By "their army," you mean the Bosnian Muslim army, I take it.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Residovic.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the

10 examination by my distinguished colleague of the Prosecution, there were

11 leading questions on several occasions; that is, he suggested answers to

12 certain questions. Now, this was all right when it didn't have to do

13 with any important questions but in lines -- and this was in line 10, 12,

14 17, et cetera. But we didn't want to interrupt the examination-in-chief

15 when a leading question was asked because the witness was very calm in

16 answering all the questions.

17 However, we should like to object now because the witness, asked

18 by the Prosecutor, said that probably there were those with them who took

19 them off, that they were soldiers he didn't know about, didn't know where

20 they came from. And then the question that was the leading question by

21 the Prosecution followed. And we don't consider that that is in order,

22 so may that question and answer be redacted from the transcript. Thank

23 you.

24 MR. STAMP: May I just say that firstly -- I'm not sure about

25 this procedure, in respect to redactions for purposes of this nature. If

Page 1377

1 the question is asked and a matter is in evidence on the record, it's

2 really a matter for the discretion of the Court later on in assessing the

3 probative value of what is being said. I would think the redaction issue

4 would only arise when there are danger issues on needs to protect the

5 witnesses.

6 And we're really speaking here about two armies: The Bosnian

7 Muslim army and the HVO. The witness said there were two or three

8 soldiers. He couldn't say which army. Then in his next answer, he said,

9 "I think it was their army that captured them; although, I'm not claiming

10 anything." So in the context of what he has said so far, when he speaks

11 of "their army," logically and obviously he must be speaking of the

12 Bosnian Muslim army. So the question I asked was merely by way of

13 clarification.

14 I have led the witness in situations like that, and I've done so,

15 it is my submission, within the Rules, in areas where there could not

16 conceivably be any real issue. But nonetheless, I will try not to give

17 my friend any reason to rise.

18 May I proceed, Mr. President?

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It is true that line

20 25 -- in line 25 the Prosecution asked the witness whether those soldiers

21 were members of the BiH army, and the witness said yes. It is true that

22 the witness -- that the question was on the limit. So I think the

23 question could have been formulated differently. Perhaps what should

24 have been asked was could he be more specific on whom the soldiers

25 belonged to, in terms of an armed group. And then he might have said

Page 1378

1 "the BH army" or some other army.

2 So it is true that in line 25 we do have a question which is on

3 the limits. And the Defence was right to rise in objection. However,

4 we're not going to belabour the point. If you would like me to, I could

5 ask the Prosecution to phrase their question in a different way, if they

6 want the witness to give a more specific answer, if he is able to do, and

7 say to the best of his knowledge, for example, or in his opinion, could

8 he say anything more precise. And that may avoid this leading question.

9 So Witness, let me ask you. You said at one point that there

10 were some soldiers who came up close to you. Could you tell us today

11 what unit the soldiers belonged to? If you can tell us. If you don't

12 know, then say so. Because you said that there were some soldiers but

13 you didn't know who they belonged to. So can you identify them or not?

14 Do you understand the sense of my question?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So what is your answer to my

17 question?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the BH army captured all of

19 us and we were under their control there, but each soldier was not in

20 uniform. One of them had a jacket; another one didn't have anything; the

21 third soldier had, let's say, a jacket and trousers. So I passed by, but

22 I wasn't really in a position to look. But I assume that that was the BH

23 army guarding them there, because the Mujahedin appeared. If there had

24 been any other troops, naturally I wouldn't have waited there.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is an assumption of

Page 1379

1 yours. You can't be sure.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know any of them, so I

3 can't be certain of this. They took a wounded man, took him with us up

4 there and shot him. I don't think this was the Army of Republika Srpska

5 or the Army of the Republic of Croatia.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Stamp, please continue.

7 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as you can see, it's

9 necessary to exercise caution when formulating your questions, in that it

10 is for the witness to testify as to what he saw in response to your

11 questions. And to the extent that it is possible, he should avoid any

12 inferences or assumptions. The witness has to testify about facts that

13 he is certain of.

14 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. As it pleases the Court.

15 Q. Now, you said that as you turned a bend after you'd seen these

16 wounded people you heard gunfire and you made an assumption as to their

17 fate. Have you seen any of these persons alive since then, or do you

18 know if anybody has seen them alive since then?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, you said that you were aware of a general appearance of the

21 members of the BH army because of your previous association with them.

22 And you also said, in answer to Mr. President, that the BH army captured

23 all of us and you were under the control of the BH army. When you were

24 separated from the main group -- that is, the group of soldiers -- did

25 the BH army personnel there do anything?

Page 1380

1 A. No, they didn't do anything.

2 Q. After you turned the bend and you heard the gunshots behind you,

3 did you and your group proceed to anywhere?

4 A. Yes. We proceeded towards Bikose by road.

5 Q. And who, if anyone, escorted you along the road to Bikose?

6 A. The Mujahedin were by us and they had masks, black caps, and they

7 were carrying rifles, and they told us the direction we should take.

8 Q. Did all of them have masks?

9 A. No. About half of them had masks, and the other half didn't.

10 And that's as far as the Mujahedin are concerned.

11 Q. When you arrived at Bikose, did they take you anywhere or did

12 they have you marched anywhere?

13 A. When we arrived in Bikose, the first one who arrived reached a

14 wall that was in front of the house. I don't know whether he jumped over

15 the wall, but they started shooting. I then turned around, threw myself

16 forward. I was wounded then. Jakov fell over me. They continued

17 shooting. I tried to hide myself. And then there was silence. After a

18 while, after a short while, I heard some footsteps, and they disappeared.

19 There was silence. I stood up, and then I fled to the woods.

20 Q. Very well. Let's take this part bit by bit. When you arrived,

21 you arrived in the vicinity of a wall in front of a house. Did -- were

22 you and the other persons in your group positioned in any way in

23 particular near that wall?

24 A. They told us where we were to go. When this person appeared,

25 when he reached the wall, well, that stone wall continued. It descended.

Page 1381

1 This person wanted to take advantage of the opportunity to flee, and he

2 jumped across -- over the wall. They shot after him -- they shot at him.

3 And then Stipo Volic went to the other side. They started shooting at

4 him and at us, and that's when I threw myself to the ground and tried to

5 hide.

6 Q. You said one person ran to one side over a wall and then Stipo

7 Volic went to the other side and they started to shoot at them and to

8 shoot at us." Now, I'd like you to explain to the Court what you mean by

9 "they started to shoot at us." Apart from Stipo and the first person who

10 ran, what were the rest of you doing when you say "they started to shoot

11 at us"?

12 A. They took us up to that point, and the first person reached the

13 wall and they told us to stop. The first person jumped over the wall,

14 the one who was right up next to the wall. He jumped over the wall. And

15 they started shooting at him. And then this little one, he jumped to the

16 other side. And then they all -- they started shooting at all of us.

17 And when I saw that they had started shooting at us all, I threw myself

18 to the ground, and that's when I was wounded. The others started falling

19 to the ground too. Jakov fell over me and he died; he was killed. I

20 tried to hide myself. They continued shooting. And then there was

21 silence. They probably ran after this person who had fled. Someone had

22 fled from that column. They disappeared at that time, and later I found

23 out that two persons had fled. And when it became silent -- I didn't see

24 that anyone was fleeing. And at that point I fled to the woods too.

25 Q. Okay. Let's take this step by step. Just for clarification,

Page 1382

1 when they started to shoot at what you say "us," what were you and that

2 group doing? Were you running? Were you standing? Were you walking or

3 what?

4 A. As soon as I saw that they were shooting, I turned around and I

5 threw myself down on my face, and I remained lying on the ground. And

6 when it fell silent, these two persons fled. I stood up, and I could see

7 that these people were on the ground. I then fled towards the woods.

8 Q. Now, about how many of you were there when they started to shoot

9 at you?

10 A. There were 30 or 40 of us. We were all up there.

11 Q. And when they started to shoot at you, at the time they started,

12 what were you doing? Were you sitting, standing, walking, or running?

13 A. We were all standing, apart from these two persons, Ante and the

14 other one. They were in front of me.

15 Q. About how many persons fired at you and the others as you stood

16 there?

17 A. There were about ten of them.

18 Q. Were you hit or were you not hit?

19 A. I was hit in the chest and the leg, but the wounds were

20 superficial.

21 Q. You said that you fell and someone fell on top of you. Do you

22 know who fell on top of you, the name of the person who fell on top of

23 you?

24 A. Jako Tavic.

25 Q. Now, about how long did this shooting into the group of you who

Page 1383

1 were standing there last for? How long -- or what period of time this

2 lasted for? And you can give us an estimate.

3 A. Well, it was a few seconds. I don't know. Maybe ten seconds.

4 Q. How long did you remain on the ground?

5 A. I don't know, two, three, or five minutes. I don't know how long

6 exactly. Because in such situations, it's difficult to know. When I

7 heard these people fleeing, I stood up. I saw that there were people who

8 had been killed and who were lying on the ground, and that's when I fled

9 to the woods.

10 Q. Did the firing -- well, did the firing stop while you were on the

11 ground?

12 A. The shooting stopped, and we remained silent. And when I heard

13 that these two men were fleeing, I stood up and I fled. I didn't hear

14 any other sounds. I stood up. I saw that there was no one there with

15 weapons, and that's when I stood up and fled.

16 Q. When you stood up, can you just tell us what did you see, if

17 anything, in your immediate vicinity of where you were and where the

18 other men that were with you were.

19 A. I saw the dead people. I saw at the back of the column a man

20 raised his head. He couldn't stand up. He must have been wounded in the

21 lower part of the body, and he was crying out I don't know what. I

22 didn't dare go there. I fled to the woods.

23 Q. Where did you eventually go to?

24 A. I spent that day in the woods. 500 or 700 metres -- or 800

25 metres from the village. I spent the entire day there. I didn't dare go

Page 1384

1 anywhere else, because I knew where their lines were. They were all

2 around the place. I was near a pool. I drank some water, and a few

3 hundred metres away from me there were BH army soldiers, and I heard

4 someone crying out to someone else to bring him water. And then I

5 carried on through the woods, and I remained there almost until dawn.

6 Q. Where did you end up or escape to eventually?

7 A. I later went through the woods to a village, Suhi Dol, and then

8 over Brloge to Kosarici, where we used to have lines. And I saw further

9 down there were two lines. And when I got to the place called Brloge, I

10 heard shooting, and I waited. I stopped there, waited, waited until

11 night fell. Then I descended, went below Suhi Dol. I saw Luka. I had a

12 drink of water. And I went up towards the village of Orliste, and then

13 through the place called Igrisce, which is where the Serbs held their

14 lines. I had a sort of summer house there. And I lied down there until

15 dawn. At daybreak, I saw troops over there, Serbian troops. I took my

16 vest, tore it, raised it, and headed in their direction and cried out to

17 them.

18 When I reached, then they took me to the command, interrogated me

19 there. Volic Stipan was there too. They questioned us, and then they

20 took us down below to -- and around Babanovac, I was beaten. There were

21 civilians there.

22 Q. Okay. Thanks. So you surrendered to the Serb forces and

23 eventually you were exchanged and returned to the fold of the HVO?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, can you remember the names of some of the persons that you

Page 1385

1 were with, that you were standing with at Bikose when they opened fire on

2 you? And if you can remember the names, could you tell us slowly.

3 A. I remember Antara, they called him. That's the first person.

4 And then Jako Tavic; he was with me. Pranjes Ana was in front of me.

5 Jako Tavic. Ana Pranjes. Slavko Kramar. They were with me, and the

6 person behind me, I don't know about them.

7 Q. These names that you just called, have you seen any of them alive

8 since that incident where you were shot at?

9 A. No, I haven't.

10 MR. STAMP: I think, Mr. President, Your Honours, that I am just

11 about complete. But I was wondering if, with your permission, I could

12 use the opportunity of an earlier adjournment to confer with my

13 colleagues, if it is not inconvenient to the Court. I probably will end

14 as soon as we resume, but I could use the time to speak with my

15 colleagues.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. That is not a problem.

17 But with regard to the witness, there are two questions I would like to

18 ask the witness, because the Judges have to establish what the pertinence

19 and the probative weight of his testimony is.

20 I would like to know when he was escorted just before the

21 shooting broke out, because one of his companions jumped over the wall,

22 was the witness dressed in civilian or in military clothes. How was the

23 witness dressed? The witness has told us that he tore up his vest when

24 he surrendered to the Serbs. How was he dressed?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had a military jacket. All my

Page 1386

1 clothes were military clothes. But the person who fled first, he was

2 wearing a leather jacket, not a uniform, not a military uniform. He's

3 the first person who jumped over the wall. But I had a military uniform.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My second question, which is

5 very simple: You said that there were between 30 and 40 of you. The

6 people who escorted you, how many of them were there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people who escorted us, the

8 Mujahedin, there were -- and those with masks, there were about ten of

9 them.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you say "masks" - that's

11 how it's been interpreted - do you mean a ski mask or a mask? Is mask is

12 something one puts in front of us, and a ski mask is something one wears

13 when it is cold. Would it be a mask or a ski mask? Since we're talking

14 about the month of June.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had knitted caps on their

16 head -- on their heads.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's twenty to 4.00. We'll

18 have what we call a technical break, which, according to the Rules,

19 should be a 25-minute break. We will resume at five past 4.00, and the

20 Prosecution will inform us of whether they're going to continue with

21 their examination-in-chief or whether -- it will be time for the

22 cross-examination.

23 So the hearing is adjourned and we will resume at five past 4.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

Page 1387












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1388

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. After the break,

2 let's proceed with the hearing.

3 Before we had our adjournment, the Prosecution said that they

4 would let us know whether they wished to continue the

5 examination-in-chief or whether they have concluded. Mr. Stamp.

6 MR. STAMP: Yes. Mr. President, if that may please you, that is

7 the examination-in-chief. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 I'm now going to give the floor to the Defence for the

10 cross-examination, in conformity with Article 90 of the Rules of

11 Procedure and Evidence.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Pranjes. My name is Edina

15 Residovic, and I'm the Defence counsel for General Enver Hadzihasanovic.

16 I shall be asking you a few questions about the same topics you discussed

17 with my learned colleague of the Prosecution.

18 Before your testimony here today, on several occasions you gave

19 statements, the latest one being to the investigators of the OTP of The

20 Hague Tribunal; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And every time you did your best to tell them everything you

23 remember, based on your personal knowledge; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. Now, you said that you lived in Maljine in the

Page 1389

1 Travnik municipality; that's right, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You went to primary school in Guca Gora, which is about 2 and a

4 half kilometres away from Maljine, and you went to secondary school in

5 Travnik; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you confirmed here in court that as of the spring of 1990,

8 until September 1992, you worked in Switzerland and would go back home to

9 Travnik and Maljine from time to time; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. From October 1992, you were a member of the Croatian Defence

12 Council or the HVO; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That autumn, when you returned to Maljine -- or rather, the

15 Travnik municipality, you noticed in your area a certain number of

16 foreigners, Mujahedins; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. They had taken up residence in empty houses in Poljanice near

19 Mehurici; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In front of that house, the Mujahedin kept watch throughout the

22 day; is that right?

23 A. Yes, along the road.

24 Q. Now, you know that a number of local Muslim inhabitants went to

25 see and visit the Mujahedin and started copying them; is that right?

Page 1390

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The Mujahedins were very different from the local population,

3 both Muslim and Croatian; they had darker skin. They spoke a foreign

4 language. They wore beards. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, let's go back to your own position, as you described it to

7 the Prosecutor, as a member of the Croatian Defence Council. Your

8 particular unit at the time, at the beginning, belonged to the Travnik

9 Brigade. And when the Frankopan Brigade was established, then you came

10 under the Frankopan Brigade. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the Frankopan Brigade had its headquarters at Guca Gora, not

13 far from Maljine; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, to the north, above your villages, on Mount Vlasic that's

16 where the front lines were facing the Serb army; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Until March 1993, your military assignment and that of the other

19 HVO soldiers was to hold the line facing the Serb forces at Mount Vlasic;

20 is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In addition to you -- or rather, at the same positions on Mount

23 Vlasic, the lines were also held by the BH army members; is that right?

24 A. Yes, but always above us, further up.

25 Q. So the assignment you were given was to hold the line, and you

Page 1391

1 did that by being up at the line, front line, for seven days and then

2 you'd spend the following week resting at home; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The soldiers from Donje Maljine, when they went to take up their

5 positions at the front line, facing the Serbs, had to pass by your

6 village or through your village, the village of Gornje Maljine; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At the beginning of 1993, armed conflicts took place in the

10 broader area between the army and HVO in Busovaca, Kiseljak, and the

11 surrounding parts; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that led to increased tension in your own village and

14 increased fear as well; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Your unit, in the early spring of 1993, for those reasons left

17 its positions facing the Serb forces at Mount Vlasic and what you did was

18 to start to defend your village and deploy there.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At Guca Gora was where the HVO had its headquarters to control

21 all passage to and from Guca Gora.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, perhaps you and I understand each other, but it would be a

24 good idea to make it clearer to the other participants in the courtroom.

25 Is it true that from Travnik to Zenica the main road passes through the

Page 1392

1 Lasva River Valley, through Vitez and Busovaca; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The other road you can take from Travnik to Zenica leads across

4 Guca Gora and Ovnak; is that right?

5 A. And there is another road leading through Han Bila.

6 Q. Which leads on to Zenica.

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. So one of the possible roads that you can take to go from Travnik

9 to Zenica is the one passing through Guca Gora.

10 A. Yes, and across Bila. You don't have to take the tubular road.

11 Q. All right. However, since you said a moment ago that at the

12 beginning of 1993 a conflict broke out between the army and the HVO, is

13 it correct that that main road, going through Vitez and Busovaca, was no

14 longer open to the members of the BH army; they couldn't pass by that

15 way?

16 A. I'm not sure about that. I don't know, because I didn't take

17 that road.

18 Q. Thank you. Well, if there's anything you don't know, just say

19 so. You can't answer something you don't know about.

20 But let me go back to the day at which the events took place --

21 or rather, what you were saying. When you went back to Donje Maljine,

22 your unit --

23 A. Gornje Maljine.

24 Q. Very well, Gornje Maljine. Your unit set up defence positions on

25 the hill of Lazine.

Page 1393

1 A. First of all they shot at us in Donje Polinje [phoen] and

2 intercepted the road leading into our own village, Maljine. And then we

3 established those lines.

4 Q. That was up on Lazine hill above the village.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you this next question because I'm not

7 quite sure whether you know anything about it, but here it is: Do you

8 know that in the beginning of June in Travnik a conflict broke out

9 between the BH army and the HVO? Do you know anything about that?

10 A. [Inaudible response].

11 Q. You don't. Very well.

12 You said that on the 7th of June, 1993, you were at your position

13 between Maljine and Bikose at a place called Greda; is that right? You

14 were on duty there.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And together with you there were Jako Tavic, Marijan Pavlic and

17 Franjo Martinovic; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the morning of the 8th of June, you came under fire and you

20 decided to withdraw towards the village; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, this morning, when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that

23 you took refuge in an improvised medical centre in the village; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1394

1 Q. So all the HVO members, all of you who had withdrawn to that

2 place were under arms; is that right?

3 A. Yes. We did have weapons; that's right.

4 Q. So that now in that medical centre there were a few wounded

5 persons, members of the HVO, and some civilians; would that be right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm not going to ask you what happened exactly, but you said that

8 at one particular point the members of the army asked you to surrender

9 your weapons, the weapons you had with you. Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Dr. Puselja and a nurse negotiated with the members of the army;

12 is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The HVO soldiers who were there surrendered their weapons, but

15 you did not surrender yours.

16 A. No. I hid my weapon in the corn field, in a corner of the corn

17 field.

18 Q. Among the wounded in the outpatients clinic was Ana Puselja; is

19 that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you were taken out of the clinic, you said that one of the

22 soldiers asked you to drive a Lada vehicle in to him, which you did.

23 A. Yes. He was down by the garage, and he gave me the keys, car

24 keys, and told me to drive the car out of the garage.

25 Q. Yes. And this pregnant woman was put into that vehicle and

Page 1395

1 driven off to Mehurici; is that right?

2 A. I don't know about that, because I left. So I don't know whether

3 the -- that woman was driven off in that particular car.

4 Q. When you reached the centre of the village, as you explained to

5 the Prosecutor, the wounded persons who were in the clinic had already

6 been driven off; is that right?

7 A. Now, they stayed there. Whether they were driven off later, I

8 don't know. I can't say. All I know is that a wounded woman - and they

9 had bandaged up her leg - was brought in there. The soldiers went to

10 collect her and bring her into the clinic. And that's what I know.

11 Q. All right. So when you yourself left the village, the wounded

12 persons and the doctor stayed on in the village; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So in fact you don't actually know who took those wounded persons

15 out of the village because you yourself had already left; is that it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, from your village towards Mehurici, you said you

18 marched in a column of some sort and that you were escorted by several

19 members of the BH army; is that right?

20 A. Yes, and other civilians would join us on the road.

21 Q. All right. But it was these army members, these soldiers, who

22 tried to protect you, both from the civilians and from some insults that

23 were being hurled at you; would that be correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At one point in time, you came across two Mujahedin who wanted to

Page 1396

1 take a Croat out of the column; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The members of the army who were escorting you prevented that and

4 didn't allow the man to be taken out, the HVO soldier to be separated

5 from the column. They put him back into the column. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So on the road throughout, the soldiers' conduct towards you was

8 quite proper; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And one soldier even cautioned you and told you to take off a

11 cross that you had on your shoulder because he said this could be

12 dangerous if the Mujahedin were to see it, were to come and see it; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you heeded his advice and got rid of it; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also explained to us, when asked by the Prosecutor, that at

18 one point a group of armed Mujahedin turned up in front of the column and

19 that they cocked their rifles at you straight away; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The soldiers of the BH army tried to explain that they were

22 taking you to their headquarters; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The Mujahedin said that they wouldn't interfere because otherwise

25 you might be killed.

Page 1397

1 A. Yes, the Mujahedin had masks on, and they said that they would

2 separate the men they wanted to take out.

3 Q. And that's when the separation started, after that; is that it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The Mujahedin, as you've already told us, separated 30 to 40 men,

6 you amongst them, and the nurse; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And this was in the hamlet of Bikose, this group of Mujahedin,

9 joined by other Mujahedin?

10 A. Yes, and they were masked too.

11 Q. Right, masked too.

12 And I think you described what happened next in detail.

13 A. Among the 30 or 40, there were more people in civilian clothing

14 than in military uniform.

15 Q. Yes, you've told the Court that too.

16 A. Most --

17 Q. Most of them were in civilian clothing.

18 A. Two were young boys who were not military-able men and one of

19 them was a minor too.

20 Q. Thank you for answering my questions, and you have my sympathies

21 for everything you had to go through.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

23 Now for the Kubura Defence. Any questions?

24 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. No, there are no questions

25 for Mr. Kubura for this witness. Thank you.

Page 1398

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Any redirect from the Prosecution?

3 MR. STAMP: Just one question of clarification, if it pleases

4 you, Mr. President.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Stamp:

6 Q. You said that when the Mujahedin who separated you came up, they

7 said - and I'm going to read my note, which might be erroneous - but I

8 have here that you said that the Mujahedin said "they wouldn't interfere

9 because otherwise they might be killed." And you agreed with that.

10 Could you explain to us what you meant when you agreed with that question

11 or that statement.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Would you please give me the line

13 on the transcript, because that's not the question I asked and that's not

14 the answer the witness gave. So perhaps the interpretation was

15 incorrect. Could you please give me the line on the LiveNote.

16 MR. STAMP: Yes. On the English transcript, that's page 40, line

17 8. The question begins:

18 Q. "The Mujahedin said that they wouldn't interfere because

19 otherwise you might be killed."

20 Answer:

21 A. "Yes."

22 And it goes on. My quotation of the question was not verbatim,

23 was not exactly as it is, but the -- the basic aura of meaning was the

24 same.

25 Perhaps I could rephrase it based on what I see here. I have the

Page 1399

1 verbatim transcript in front of me.

2 Q. Witness, in answer to the statement, could the Mujahedin --

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but perhaps there's

4 been a mistake in the interpretation, but I can repeat the question to

5 the witness, because what it says in the transcript, as interpreted by my

6 colleague, was not part of either the question or the answer.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, the Defence

8 tells us that they never asked the witness that question. And the --

9 would the Prosecution like to continue with the question or to retract

10 it? The Defence said they didn't ask the question that way.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The interpretation of my question

12 was different to what I actually asked, and the answer that the witness

13 gave is also different in view of the question we asked. So because of

14 those reasons, I would like to draw your attention to that part of the

15 interpretation.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think the best way is to have

17 Edina Residovic ask the question again and the witness can answer.

18 So Ms. Ms. Residovic, could you ask your question again.

19 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you have understood what has happened.

21 One of the questions I asked you was misinterpreted and what I asked you

22 was this.

23 At the moment when the group of Mujahedin jumped across the fence

24 or hedge, the soldiers of the BH army attempted to intervene and they

25 said that they would take you to the headquarters at Mehurici; is that

Page 1400

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then the Mujahedin said to those soldiers, the soldiers of

4 the BH army, not to interfere; otherwise, they'd kill you all. Is that

5 what happened? Is that how it was?

6 A. Now, whether they said they would kill us all, I didn't

7 understand that. But they jumped up in front of the group and cocked

8 their rifles and they began to withdraw. Now, I didn't quite understand

9 them -- I couldn't understand the Mujahedin, but the main thing was that

10 the rifles were cocked and turned towards them.

11 Q. You mean towards the soldiers of the BH army?

12 A. Yes, because they were between us and the Mujahedin, the ones

13 with the caps.

14 Q. And it was only then that the members of the army withdrew,

15 whereas the Mujahedin tried to -- started to separate you; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We now have the

19 question at page 43, beginning with line 1 and onwards.

20 Based on the answer given by the witness, would the Prosecution

21 like to ask any more questions of this witness, Mr. Stamp, or does the

22 answer suffice?

23 MR. STAMP: No further questions of the witness.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So there are no

25 further questions. Fine.

Page 1401

1 Witness, the Chamber would like to thank you for coming to The

2 Hague. You have answered questions put to you by the Prosecution and the

3 Defence, and we should like to thank you once again and wish you bon

4 voyage back home.

5 I would now like to ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the

6 courtroom.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before adjourning, since we

9 have no other witnesses for today, I should like to indicate to the

10 parties, to Mr. Bourgon especially, the procedure we are to follow once a

11 request, a motion has been made from one of the parties, by one of the

12 parties.

13 If it comes from the Defence, then the Prosecution has 14 days

14 within which to respond, and that is Article 126 bis in the Rules of

15 Evidence and Procedure. Now, if the motion comes from the Prosecution,

16 you have -- you also have 14 days to respond.

17 Now, let's look at another hypothesis: Motion response. The

18 party filing the motion considers that it has to respond to the response

19 made by the Prosecution. So what happened in cases of that kind? This

20 hypothesis has been regulated by a ruling given on the 9th of November,

21 2001, by the Pre-Trial Judge and it indicates the following:

22 In cases of a possible reply, a motion, three days is granted for

23 the parties to ask the Trial Chamber's authorisation to respond. Or to

24 simplify this matter, a motion requires a response within 14 days. And

25 let's take it that the Defence would like to respond to the response

Page 1402

1 given; you have three days to reply to the Trial Chamber, either orally

2 or in writing - orally would be quicker - to ask our authorisation to

3 respond. So that is the procedure to follow.

4 We took note that during the holiday break there were certain

5 motions which did not follow that procedure, so this procedure is in

6 place now both for the Defence and the Prosecution, to avoid one motion

7 following another, et cetera. So this mechanism will be put in place.

8 As far as procedure is concerned, it is the simplest one: Motion and

9 answer, and a response again would require additional authorisation

10 within the space of three days. So you can consult the ruling of the 9th

11 of November, 2001, which stipulates procedure in instances of that kind.

12 Now, would either of the two parties like to say anything? Any

13 additional matters to raise or not for today?

14 The Defence.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we know that we

16 made a response outside the time limit mentioned today, as prescribed by

17 the decision of the 9th of November, 2001. However, Your Honours, we

18 were facing a dilemma. This ruling was issued by the Pre-Trial Judge,

19 and it wasn't clear from it whether the time limits were linked to the

20 pre-trial period. As there were the Christmas and New Year holidays, we

21 weren't able to consult the Trial Chamber, and for that reason we made

22 the exception.

23 It is quite clear to us now that the Trial Chamber will follow

24 that same ruling, the ruling of the 9th of November, 2001, in resolving

25 these matters, and we shall adhere to it strictly. Thank you.

Page 1403

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

2 Would the Prosecution like to raise any matters? Mr. Withopf?

3 MR. WITHOPF: On this issue, Mr. President, Your Honours, we have

4 no observations to make; however, it's quite obvious, and it's our

5 understanding, that the ruling of the 9th of November, 2001, applied to

6 both the pre-trial stage of the proceedings and the trial stage of the

7 proceedings.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Under those circumstances, I adjourn the meeting for today and we

10 resume tomorrow at 2.15, as usual.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.40 p.m.,

12 to be resumed on Wednesday, the 14 day of January,

13 2004, at 2.15 p.m.