Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1557

1 Monday, 19 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Hadzihasanovic not present]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated] Could we have the

12 appearances, please.

13 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,

14 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Ekkehard Withopf with the

15 case manager, Kimberly Fleming. And we are joined today by Mrs.

16 Charlotte Verhaeghe, who is an intern within the Office of the

17 Prosecutor.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And could we have

19 the appearances for the Defence.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. My name

21 is Edina Residovic. Stephane Bourgon is co-counsel. And Mirna Milanovic

22 is the legal assistant. We represent General Hadzihasanovic. In

23 accordance with the decision of the Court, General Hadzihasanovic is not

24 present. He has been temporarily released to attend his brother's

25 funeral. We would like to take this opportunity to thank the Trial

Page 1558

1 Chamber for having taken such a decision. And in accordance with the

2 Trial Chamber's decision, General Hadzihasanovic will be returning

3 tomorrow to The Hague, and he will attend the hearing on Wednesday.

4 Thank you.

5 And similarly, General Hadzihasanovic has agreed to us attending

6 the hearing and to the hearing being conducted without his presence.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Could Mr. Kubura's Defence introduce themselves.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.

11 Mr. Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and our legal assistant,

12 Mr. Mulalic, represent Mr. Kubura.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 The Trial Chamber would like to greet everyone present in the

15 courtroom, the Prosecution, the Defence, and the accused, Mr. Kubura. As

16 everyone has noticed, one of the accused is not present today, since a

17 member of his family has died, and his Defence requested over the

18 weekend to be granted leave to attend his brother's funeral. The

19 authorities of his country have taken charge of him, and he will be back

20 in The Hague tomorrow and will attend the hearing on Wednesday,

21 naturally. In accordance with the request -- in the request, the Defence

22 said that they would represent the accused, and this was with the

23 accused's agreement. So the hearing can be held without the accused

24 being present but with the presence of his Defence team.

25 Today there are two witnesses who have been scheduled. And

Page 1559

1 before calling the witnesses in, could the Prosecution inform us of the

2 time they think they will need to examine both witnesses.

3 Mr. Withopf or Mr. Mundis.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honour, we anticipate that we

5 can complete the examination of both witnesses today. We anticipate for

6 the first witness examination-in-chief of about some 45 minutes; the

7 second witness, we anticipate examination-in-chief of about some 1 hour

8 to 1 hour 15 minutes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the usher

10 please call the witness in.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Can you

13 hear the interpretation?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you tell us

16 your first and last name.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Niko Petrovic. I'm from

18 Kakanj. I was born on the 19th of April, 1965, in Kakanj.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What are you by

20 profession?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a central-heating fitter.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where do you live? In

23 which city do you live at the moment?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Kakanj.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You will now make a

Page 1560

1 solemn declaration, and the usher will show you the text. Could you

2 please read it out. Aloud.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You can sit down

6 now.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you're going to

10 anxious the questions that will be put to you by the representative or

11 the representatives of the Prosecution, who are to your right. We have

12 been informed that the examination will last for about 45 minutes. After

13 they have put their questions to you, the Defence, which is to your left,

14 will cross-examine you. And if the need arises, the Judges, who are

15 sitting before you, will also ask you some questions. Please answer as

16 extensively as possible the questions put to you. And if you don't

17 understand the questions, ask the person who is putting the question to

18 you to rephrase it or ask the question again. Try to avoid yes-or-no

19 answers and to provide answers that are as complete as possible.

20 Having said that, the Prosecution may proceed with its

21 examination-in-chief.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. Witness, where were you living in 1992?

25 A. I was living in Kakanj.

Page 1561

1 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber the state of ethnic

2 relations between the different groups in Kakanj in 1992.

3 A. The inter-ethnic relations in Kakanj in 1992 were somewhat tense

4 because there'd been a splitting of Bosnia, a separation, a division.

5 Through the media they'd started dividing into three republics. One was

6 to be Serbia; one was to be Bosnia and Herzegovina; one was to belong to

7 the Croats -- one part was to belong to the Croats.

8 Q. Witness, in 1992 how were you employed?

9 A. In 1992, I worked in the Velepromet Visoko labour organisation in

10 Kakanj. It was a labour organisation, a company in Kakanj.

11 Q. What kind of work were you employed doing in 1992?

12 A. In 1992, the shop started closing down. And then I worked as a

13 driver. I was helping a driver. Since there was a driver in the labour

14 organisation, I helped him. And I would receive orders from that

15 organisation. The shops were closing down at the time, since there was a

16 financial crisis during that period. So we'd drive this stock around, as

17 the shops closed down. And after a few days, after some days had

18 passed - this was just before bankruptcy - it was no longer possible

19 there were no funds any more. The employers -- the employees weren't

20 receiving their salaries. That was just before the conflict broke out.

21 So I worked as a driver. I transported this stock.

22 Q. Witness, you just mentioned the conflict breaking out. Do you

23 recall when the conflict broke out?

24 A. Well, these conflicts -- it was around 1992 when they broke out.

25 Some kind of a group entered and was captured somewhere in the Croatian

Page 1562

1 area, towards Kraljeva Sutjeska some kind of Mujahedin appeared, so the

2 HVO captured some of those Mujahedin and then the civilians, who were

3 given some kind of a work obligation - but we were totally innocent,

4 since we weren't members of any formation; we were just Croats or

5 Orthodox -- of the Orthodox faith - they started bringing us in. So if

6 something happened to one of theirs, then something would happen to us.

7 The situation was tense.

8 Q. Witness, when did the armed conflict begin in Kakanj, where you

9 were living?

10 A. Well, the conflict in Kakanj broke out after 1993, after I had

11 been wounded. On the 18th of May, 1993, I had an accident. After that,

12 I stayed on in Kakanj for four days, and then I took the risk and went

13 with my grandmother and my wife. I went to Kiseljak. At the time, this

14 was very risky because there weren't any cars on the road at the time or

15 anything similar. People were hiding at the time. No one appeared

16 there.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a slight

18 correction to the translation. Line 13, the translation states "after I

19 was wounded." The witness said "after he had a misfortune, an accident."

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was brought in on the 18th

21 of May --

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's just a matter of the

23 translator having misheard something. Instead of "accident," it says

24 "wounded here." Instead of "misfortune," it says "wounded." So I would

25 be grateful if this error could be corrected.

Page 1563

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You've heard what

2 the Defence has said. The Defence believes that you said "the accident I

3 had," whereas the English text we have in front of us says "after I was

4 wounded." So what is the correct term, "wounded" or "had an accident"?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had an accident in 1993. I was

6 brought in to the motel by the MOS, the Muslim armed forces, a civilian

7 victim.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But you weren't

9 physically wounded. You didn't have any wounds, any physical wounds, any

10 wounds to your body. Or perhaps you had psychological wounds.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had wounds after I was questioned

12 in the motel. That's the occasion on which they brought 15 of us in, in

13 total. And after that, a baton was used and my head was cracked. I was

14 covered in blood. I had stitches to my head. You can see this in the

15 medical documentation. I was dealt blows to the head. Yes, I had open

16 wounds.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution may

18 continue with its examination. Please carry on.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, you've mentioned 18 May 1993. Can you tell the Trial

21 Chamber whether you had at that time any military obligation; that is,

22 were you a soldier in any military unit or organisation on 18 May 1993?

23 A. No. On the 18th of May, 1993, I was at home in the morning. And

24 before, in the organisation where I worked, this was a sort of

25 Territorial Defence staff and they were assigned duties. And on that

Page 1564

1 fateful day, on the 18th, in the morning I was at home. I was free. And

2 sometime in the afternoon that group appeared. They had some sort of

3 signs around their heads, green bands. I wasn't a member of any

4 formation. I had Territorial Defence duties, and I had work obligations

5 to fulfil.

6 Q. Witness, can you please explain for us what you mean when you

7 said "I had Territorial Defence duties." What does that mean?

8 A. Well, the Territorial Defence, for all those employees, it

9 appeared as if each company had to find guards. And when we weren't

10 working, then there were certain facilities that we had to guard and the

11 things that were part of the organisation too.

12 Q. And, Witness, what things or places were you required to guard?

13 A. They asked me - and not just myself but other employees too - to

14 guard the main office. That's where the documents were. So yes, the

15 main office.

16 Q. The main office, Witness, of what organisation or company?

17 A. The main office of the Sretno Kakanj organisation, the Velepromet

18 organisation.

19 Q. Witness, what kind of organisation was Sretno Kakanj, the

20 Velepromet organisation? What was that?

21 A. Well, in this main office, this is where they had all the revenue

22 from the sales, from the trade, because Velepromet was involved in mixed

23 goods. They sold mixed goods, household appliances, et cetera.

24 Q. So Velepromet was a company; is that right?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 1565

1 Q. What did you wear when you served as a guard at this company?

2 A. Civilian clothes, but we were issued a pistol. It was what the

3 porters would have. And this pistol would be handed over to each person

4 whenever he turned up for duty, whenever a person took over those duties.

5 Q. Now, Witness, you told us a few moments ago that on 18 May 1993 a

6 group appeared. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber approximately what

7 time you saw this group and where you were when you saw them.

8 A. That group of people appeared about 100 metres from my house on

9 the lower side of the Bosna River and from the Sretno Motel in Kakanj it

10 was about 150 to 200 metres away. They appeared from below. There were

11 ten of them in the group. At the time, I was in front of my house. I

12 saw how the neighbours were there in front of my house, and they were

13 escorting them one by one. They were bringing them all in with their

14 identity cards, all those who weren't Muslims. They would only bring in

15 those of the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, civilians.

16 Q. Did this group come to your house, Witness?

17 A. Yes, that group did come to my house. My father, being a

18 civilised man, asked them what they needed and what they were after.

19 They said, "We're only surveying the area here." He called them in,

20 offered them coffee. It was May; it was warm outside. My mother made

21 them some coffee, which they had outside. And then my father sent me to

22 get water from the source, since the source is about 20 metres -- the

23 spring is about 20 metres from my house. I took a container and went to

24 get water. Five of them got up, and they said, "You too can give us your

25 identity card," and they took me away too with my identity card. I don't

Page 1566

1 know what happened then. But they took me away in my slippers allegedly

2 to give some sort of statement with regard to the Sretno Motel in Kakanj.

3 Q. Witness, approximately what time of day was it on 18 May 1993

4 when they took you away?

5 A. Well, it was about 12.00 or half past 12.00.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: They took me to the

7 Sretno Motel.


9 Q. Witness, how far was it approximately from your house to Motel

10 Sretno?

11 A. The motel was about 150 to 200 metres from my house. I can see

12 the motel from my house even today.

13 Q. How long did it take you to get from your house to the motel?

14 A. It took me about five minutes to get to the motel from my house,

15 since two men went with me. I was walking in front of them. I was taken

16 there via a shortcut.

17 Q. The two men who took you to Motel Sretno, what were they wearing?

18 A. These two men had a wide green band around their heads and around

19 the left arm. They also had a green band but it was narrower, and they

20 were wearing camouflage uniforms too.

21 Q. Were they carrying any type of arms?

22 A. They were carrying automatic rifles.

23 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened immediately

24 upon your arrival at Motel Sretno on 18 May 1993.

25 A. Yes, I can tell you exactly what happened. When I got to the

Page 1567

1 motel, well, the experience I went through was incredible. I didn't

2 believe that it was possible for people to act as if they weren't men. I

3 don't know how else to put it. When they gathered all of us there -

4 there were about 15 of us, as I said, perhaps -- well, give or take a man

5 - but at the time I don't think the number is important. What is

6 important is how people can mistreat others without any pangs of

7 conscience.

8 First we entered that basement in the Sretno Motel. There was a

9 fairly wide room at the entrance and there was another one, which was

10 narrower, which they threw us into. Once they had done that, there was

11 one chair in the wider area, and then three of them said, "come out to

12 this chair one by one," so they could obtain information. And so I could

13 see what would happen, I was the first who stood up. I was a little

14 large and I thought I was more resistant, tougher than the others. I

15 wanted to see what they wanted. However, the worst things happened to

16 me.

17 I sat down on the chair. One stood to the left. He was armed.

18 Another person stood to the right. And there was one who was facing me;

19 he was in front of me. I was sitting in the same position I'm sitting in

20 now. He asked me what my name was, and I told him, "My name is Niko

21 Petrovic." He said, "No, you're not." I told him again, "I'm Niko

22 Petrovic." He started rubbing my fingers with -- my toes with his boot.

23 He said, "Now we'll see. You're an Ustasha. Let's see how bad your

24 Ustasha blood smells." All of a sudden he shouted out, "What are you

25 waiting for? Why aren't you hitting him?" And as this person said so,

Page 1568

1 the person to the right, he hit me with his military-issue boot in the

2 temple. This can all be seen in the medical documentation. So he kicked

3 me in the temple, and he injured me here.

4 When I was kicked, naturally I moved to the left. But on the

5 other side, the other person was waiting for me there and he hit me with

6 the rifle butt. So I was returned to the original position. And then

7 the person who was in front of me, who said that my blood smelt and said

8 it wasn't my fault if I was Niko Petrovic, he kicked me in the chest and

9 I reeled back and then the next person shouted out. They pushed me back

10 to where the people were detained, and then they proceeded in this

11 fashion one by one.

12 Can I continue like this?

13 Q. Witness, let me just stop you for one moment. When you say "they

14 proceeded in this fashion one by one," what do you mean?

15 A. I don't understand.

16 Q. Witness, you've just said "they pushed me back to where the

17 people were detained, and then they proceeded in this fashion one by

18 one." What do you mean by that?

19 A. Well, I mean that as there were three of them there, they

20 returned me inside and another person was taken out and they said,

21 "Next." So he, that person, was to go through the same thing that I'd

22 been through. Nothing else. That's all I wanted to say.

23 Q. Witness, the chair that you were taken to, where was that chair

24 in relation to the room where you and the others were detained?

25 A. The chair was in the middle of that larger part of the room,

Page 1569

1 which is where you could see the others, which is where they could look

2 to see what was going to happen to them.

3 Q. While you were sitting in the chair being interrogated and

4 mistreated, could you see the other detainees in the room behind the

5 bars?

6 A. Yes, I could see them.

7 Q. Witness, you told us that there was approximately 15 individuals

8 detained in the room with you. Do you recall the names of any of those

9 other individuals?

10 A. Of course I can remember the names. Ljubisa Vucenovic, Josip

11 Marusic; Zeljko Krkeljas, Mladenko Krkeljas, two brothers who had to hit

12 each other. After we'd been taken out the second time, we were forced to

13 see brothers hitting each other and mistreating each other in accordance

14 with others' orders, who observed that. They had to do this in this

15 bloody manner.

16 Q. Witness, I'll ask you about that in just a moment. First let me

17 ask you a couple more questions about the interrogation. Do you know how

18 many of the other men that were detained with you were similarly

19 interrogated and mistreated?

20 A. I don't know how many other people -- or rather, what do you mean

21 "others"? There were 15 of us there, and we were all mistreated.

22 Q. Once you were returned to the room, did you personally see the

23 others being mistreated?

24 A. Yes. They were all mistreated. All 15 of us.

25 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you saw happening to

Page 1570

1 the other men that had been detained with you in that room.

2 A. I can tell you exactly. They didn't fare any better than I did.

3 In that first round, as there were -- people were taken out several

4 times. This was the first round of it. But the same thing happened. So

5 it was a sort of warning to us to tell us what we could expect in future.

6 Q. You told us a few moments ago, Witness, that you saw brothers

7 hitting each other. Can you tell us when this happened and the

8 circumstances surrounding that, please.

9 A. Yes, I can tell you that. I can tell you the circumstances too.

10 Some half an hour went by from that first beating and the provocations

11 and the way they took it out on me. They came back in larger numbers. A

12 group of about ten of them came in. They were armed. We didn't have

13 anything, of course, and we weren't to blame for anything. And they

14 lined us up. They took us out of the small room we were in and took us

15 out to this larger space and made us face each other. And then they

16 forced us, as we were facing one another, to slap one another so that

17 brother would slap brother. I slapped the person standing next to me --

18 or, rather, my neighbour. And it's difficult to have to do that. I

19 lifted my hand and was going to slap him, but I just didn't have the

20 heart. I just couldn't do it. So my hand stopped in midair. And then

21 the HOS man -- or MOS man insulted me and called me an Ustasha and why

22 didn't I hit him. And then I was hit on the back with a rifle butt.

23 And that's what happened to anybody who refused to do what they

24 told them, so that you would see brothers slapping each other and

25 neighbours slapping each other. And after that they told us to hit each

Page 1571

1 other in the stomach as hard as we could. And I still have haematoma as

2 a result of that and I have medical papers to prove it. And not only me,

3 but others too. And I considered that one of those 15 of us who were

4 beaten succumbed to the wounds and one of them -- one of us died.

5 Q. Witness, the people who were detaining you, what were they

6 wearing? What type of clothing were they wearing?

7 A. I can't call them "people." They weren't civilised. But all

8 right, let's say "people."

9 They were wearing camouflage uniforms. And when night fell, they

10 would mask themselves, and that was part three of the way in which they

11 took it out on us, if I can put it that way. I said at the beginning

12 that they had green bands tied round their heads and this insignia or

13 this marking round their arms, and the BH Army had its separate signs

14 too, markings.

15 Q. Witness, what unit or organisation did these people that were

16 detaining you belong to?

17 A. These people belonged to -- they were members of a unit. They

18 belonged to the Muslim armed forces, the MOS.

19 Q. Now, Witness, you just mentioned the third part, as you put it,

20 or in the English translation it was described as "the third part." Can

21 you please tell the Trial Chamber what the third part of the mistreatment

22 that you received on 18 May 1993 was comprised of.

23 A. Yes, I can describe that for you. The third part or part three

24 was the most terrible part, as far as I was concerned. They lined up

25 along the corridor, going out of the small room into the larger hall.

Page 1572

1 Some of them were on the left-hand side of the wall; the others were on

2 the right-hand side. And one of them - and we know who issued the

3 orders - said, "Who's Mijo's son? Let him step out of line himself. It

4 would be better for him to come forward himself, rather than wait for us

5 to take him out." He was beaten numb.

6 I stepped out. As soon as I had taken a step forward, I didn't

7 have to take any more steps. I was beaten with a rifle butt on my back,

8 and then I was kicked by one of them, then another, and a third. And I

9 did what I could to protect myself with my arms. I raised my arms to my

10 head. But they weren't able to get me down to the ground. Then I tried

11 to cross over to my colleagues, to be with, as close to them as possible,

12 but they got me with their rifle butts. And they used great force, and I

13 fell to the ground by that small room, by the door.

14 When I fell to the ground, I began to lose consciousness, and one

15 of them kneeled down on my back and took a baton. And the other

16 witnesses can testify to that, the people who were with me there. They

17 counted. And he hit me 14 times with this baton on my head. There was

18 blood spurting out all over the place, from one wall to the other. He

19 cocked his rifle at, me, his pistol at me. And he said, "I'm going to

20 kill this Ustasha now." Although -- I'll never come to terms with that

21 fact. I have my own name and surname. I'll never agree to that.

22 And just as I was about to lose consciousness, I heard a voice

23 which seemed to come from afar. He was a school friend of mine,

24 actually. I don't know how he happened to be in that group, in that MOS

25 group. Allegedly he heard from somebody else that I was there or

Page 1573

1 something like that, but anyway I heard his voice. I suddenly heard a

2 familiar voice, and it was the voice of my school friend, whose name was

3 Asim Music. And I can consider that that man ought to be protected and

4 taken care of because he and a colleague of his pushed me inside and from

5 that same MOS group they were beaten themselves. They were beaten up

6 very badly for locking the room up and preventing anybody else from going

7 inside. He said, "I'm not going to leave here until you are released,

8 until they release you."

9 So I think that there were always people with good human

10 feelings, and I think that that man ought to be supported, along with his

11 friend, his colleague. And there were parts of his own body that were

12 thrown out.

13 Q. Witness, following the intervention of Asim Music, were you

14 mistreated on any other occasion on 18 May 1993?

15 A. Yes. Asim took the key to the lock away and several others

16 turned up and they started shouting. We had to call out "Allah-U-Ekber"

17 and things like that. We were forced to do that. And whenever they said

18 this to us, we would have to respond in similar fashion. But I didn't

19 actually utter those words of greeting. Everybody should protect

20 themselves. But anyway, he locked us in and then left. Then a couple of

21 others arrived. They didn't know what to do. They took a piece of wood

22 and told us to rest our heads on the bars, iron bars, and that we should

23 stand one behind another and that they would give us something for a good

24 night -- they'd give us a good-night beating. And that was the last time

25 they beat us that day.

Page 1574

1 Q. Witness, as a result of the beatings that you received on 18 May

2 1993, the cumulative results of those various beatings, can you please

3 describe for the Trial Chamber the injuries that you sustained.

4 A. During the three beatings, I had open fractures -- open wounds to

5 my skull, 5 centimetres I think one was. But my head was all beaten up

6 and cut, cut open. I had bruises and haematoma by my kidneys and the

7 zygomatic bone, and you can see all this in the medical report. My back

8 was all black and blue, haematomas all over in the region of my abdomen,

9 and they were the size of a fist. That was what the doctor said. But he

10 wasn't able to transfer me to one of the larger medical centres, to a

11 hospital, so that I was dragged to Haljinici where first aid was

12 administered. I was given an intravenous drip, first of all. And after

13 I had recovered, I took my wife and my grandmother and left Kakanj and

14 went to Kiseljak.

15 Q. Witness, when were you released from the basement detention

16 facility of the Motel Sretno?

17 A. They released us on the 19th, which was the next day. They

18 released us on the 19th. A representative of the BH Army arrived. He

19 introduced himself and said that he was a representative of the

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina army, and he collected us up there. We all had to

21 give our particulars to tell them where -- which relatives they had,

22 brothers, sisters, et cetera. So he took down our particulars. And with

23 this certificate, saying that what had happened to us was not done by the

24 army but that it was done by the MOS, the Muslim armed forces, and that

25 we must fight together. That's what the man said. And he said he was

Page 1575

1 from Visoko and that we all had to fight against the one aggressor in the

2 area, which was the Serbs. They released us at about 12.20 -- or rather,

3 between 12.00 and 1.00 p.m.

4 Q. Witness, at the time the representative of the BH Army arrived,

5 were the wounds that you had sustained visible or had you already been

6 medically treated at that point in time?

7 A. The wounds were visible, but they would say, "Ah, did anybody

8 beat you?" I didn't actually have a mirror to see for myself what I

9 looked like. What I want to say is that nobody administered first aid,

10 nor could they do so. Who's going to give you first aid in the basement

11 of a motel? It wasn't a hotel, it was just a motel. Allegedly they said

12 that your car would drive you home, but I said, "I'll go to my own house

13 on foot," and I crossed the railway track. I didn't know what happened

14 to me, but on the way to my house, which was 150 to 200 metres away, I

15 could see that the women were looking away from me. They were putting

16 their hands up to their eyes and they didn't know what had happened to

17 me, but they didn't want to see what I -- the way I looked.

18 When I arrived home -- well, it was all very difficult.

19 Q. Witness, shortly after you arrived home, you sought the medical

20 treatment that you've described for us a few moments ago; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. I arrived home, and my father went to have a good cry. He

23 wasn't able to look at me. My mother, as any mother would, swore, but

24 she said, "Everything will be all right." She took me -- brought me some

25 water. I washed my hair with it. I didn't realise that my head was all

Page 1576

1 cut up. I put some shampoo on it and started washing it with the water,

2 but my head started bleeding and I told my wife to bring a towel and to

3 put it round me.

4 Marinko Marusic arrived at that moment, with his brother Josip

5 Marusic. We got into my own car - I was in that state - and I went

6 straight to the medical centre. I was received there. And I'd like to

7 say thank you to them all there. Five doctors - not one - five doctors

8 came to help me, to give medical treatment. They didn't mind who I was.

9 Then I went back home.

10 And when I got there, there was somebody waiting for me by the

11 garage. There was the French Battalion in Kakanj there, and they had an

12 interpreter, and the man had come to see what had happened to me. He

13 said he would protect us. I just showed him the top half of my body, and

14 I said, "There's no protection that you can give me. My health was left

15 completely unprotected and this is the state I'm in."

16 Q. Thank you, Witness.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions for the

18 witness at this time, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] One of the Judges has a

20 question to ask you, Witness.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] I would like to ask you two

23 questions. The first is this: The people who were detained with you and

24 who were mistreated, like you, were they all civilians or were some of

25 them soldiers?

Page 1577

1 And my second question is this: Were there any women detainees

2 with you?

3 A. As to your first question, they were all civilians.

4 And your second question: There were no women; just men.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

6 We still have about 20 minutes before the break, so I'm going to

7 give the floor to the Defence for the cross-examination. Please proceed.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Petrovic. My name is Edina

11 Residovic. I am the Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic. I'm

12 going to ask you a few questions.

13 You said that you were born in Kakanj and that that is where you

14 lived, up until 1993, and that you also live in Kakanj today; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. In response to a question from my colleague, you also said that

18 from 1992 you worked as a driver in the Velepromet firm of Visoko, their

19 branch office in Kakanj; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Petrovic: During that period of time - that

22 is to say, the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993 - in going about

23 your duties as a driver, did you tour the broader area around Kakanj

24 towards Visoko, Kiseljak, Busovaca, Zenica? Did you drive that way?

25 A. I did go as far as Visoko, because that's where Velepromet had an

Page 1578

1 office. Perhaps I'd go there once a week, roughly.

2 Q. Before these events came to pass, what happened to you on the

3 18th of May, is it true that in Kakanj there were no conflicts between

4 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO? That's right, isn't it?

5 A. No, there were no conflicts. No, there weren't.

6 Q. However, because of the conflict that was going on not far from

7 you, there was a certain amount of tension among the population in

8 Kakanj. That is right, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In going about your duties as a driver and also through the

11 information media, you were informed that an armed conflict had taken

12 place between the Bosnia-Herzegovina army and the Croatian Defence

13 Council in the broader area of Central Bosnia; is that right?

14 A. Could you repeat that question, please.

15 Q. Mr. Petrovic, you said that when you went about your job as a

16 driver, you went to Visoko and other places. Now, I'm interested in

17 knowing the following: While you were going about your duties, did you

18 learn that at the beginning of 1993 in the surrounding places, towns --

19 Busovaca, Kiseljak, Vitez, and so on -- that there were open armed

20 conflict which had taken place between the BH Army and the Croatian

21 Defence Council?

22 A. At that time, that did not happen. That happened after the 18th

23 of May, which is when the conflicts broke out, a month later, between the

24 HVO and the BH Army. But at that time, there were no conflicts, while I

25 was driving, while I was a driver and drove along those roads. But yes,

Page 1579

1 there were tensions. There was increased tension; that's true. And you

2 would see slogans written up saying this territory belongs to so and so,

3 this territory belongs to the other side, and so on.

4 Q. At the beginning of 1993, you said that you did not belong to any

5 military formation but that you were doing your work assignment in the

6 company you worked for; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me now, please: After that, and up to the end of the war,

9 did you join a military formation of any kind at all?

10 A. I joined a military formation in 1993, after Fojnica fell. And I

11 have medical documents to bear this out. I went for a medical

12 examination, and I was to report again to the doctor ten days later, to

13 go to the military hospital for a checkup. However, I was not able to do

14 so because the army had assumed control of Fojnica, so that that upper

15 part of Fojnica, in the direction of Dusina, that was, and then they

16 forced me to join up. The diagnosis that I was given was that I should

17 rest, but they and the HVO forced me to take up arms.

18 Q. So from mid-1993 until the end of the war, you were in fact a

19 member of the HVO; that's right, isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The headquarters of the Croatian Defence Council was in Grude, is

22 that right, the Main Staff?

23 A. I don't know that. I was in Fojnica myself, and it belonged to

24 Kiseljak, generally speaking.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you said that there was some tension

Page 1580

1 in Kakanj too. Is it true that in Kakanj at that time an HVO brigade

2 existed whose headquarters used to be in the centre of town but as of

3 April 1993 it was relocated to the village of Haljinici, which was 5

4 kilometres east of Kakanj. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. At the end of April and the beginning of May, you were able to

7 notice that some of the Croatian inhabitants from Kakanj were withdrawing

8 towards Vares and Busovaca. Would that be true?

9 A. I left Kakanj after my misfortunes, four days later, that is, so

10 I don't know what happened after that.

11 Q. Would it be correct to say that at the beginning of 1993 quite a

12 lot of refugees from the area of Busovaca, Kiseljak, Vitez started

13 arriving in Kakanj? Is that correct?

14 A. No. The refugees were arriving from Ilijas, for the most part,

15 during that period that you have mentioned.

16 Q. When they took you to the Sretno Motel, would it be true to say

17 that in the course of this terrible experience you went through the

18 persons who maltreated you had painted faces? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'll just repeat what you said. Your school companion appeared

21 from somewhere, and he in fact helped you on that occasion and prevented

22 them from mistreating you or carrying on to mistreat you; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As soon as the army representatives arrived, after a short

Page 1581

1 discussion with you, you were released; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. As you said, in the local hospital in Kakanj you were provided

4 with urgent medical treatment and the document states that you had an

5 open wound which was 5 centimetres long and extended as far as the bone;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So at the time, you didn't have a fractured skull; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Well, that wound was stitched up.

11 Q. On that same day, when you were examined in the hospital in

12 Kakanj, you were taken to Haljinici, to the HVO hospital, and you were

13 provided with other forms of treatment, other medicine; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On the following day, an HVO ambulance took you with your family

16 to Fojnica, and for a certain period of time you continued to receive

17 treatment in the HVO military hospital; is that correct?

18 A. No. My wife, my grandmother, and myself went there in my own

19 car.

20 Q. From 1997 you have had certain problems and you've been receiving

21 treatment from a neuropsychiatrist; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions for this

24 witness.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]

Page 1582

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does Mr. Kubura's Defence have

3 any questions?

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We

5 just have a few questions for this witness.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Could you confirm for the Trial Chamber that, as

8 you have said in your testimony today, you stayed in the Sretno Motel for

9 no more than 24 hours?

10 A. Yes, I was there for 24 hours.

11 Q. On the following day, when you left the Sretno Motel, you said,

12 in response to my colleague's question, you said you went to the clinic,

13 where you were provided with medical treatment.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You said that the medical treatment was of a high standard and

16 that there were five doctors who took care of you.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You weren't detained for treatment in the clinic.

19 A. No, I wasn't detained for treatment in the clinic, because the

20 doctor wasn't able to transfer me to another clinical centre, a high

21 clinical centre for further treatment.

22 Q. The letter of discharge was signed by Dr. Spasojevic after your

23 examination; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The Defence suggest that is this exhibit -- the letter of

Page 1583












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1584

1 discharge be shown to the witness, so he can identify it.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: The Defence team received this document from

3 the Prosecution.

4 Q. Is that the letter of discharge that you received on that day,

5 when you'd been provided with the medical treatment?

6 A. This is just the first document that has to do with my checkup by

7 the doctor.

8 Q. The day after you'd left the Sretno Motel?

9 A. Yes, the day after I'd left the Sretno Motel.

10 Q. In this document that you have been shown, the Dr. Spasojevic

11 stated that you had only minor wounds.

12 A. Yes. But the document states that the patient -- that he wasn't

13 in a position to send the patient to another medical centre for further

14 and more detailed examination.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we suggest that

16 this document be tendered into evidence as a Defence exhibit, because the

17 witness stated that he had a fracture of the skull, whereas the medical

18 documentation states something that is quite contrary to his statement.

19 We will ensure that a sufficient number of copies are provided of this

20 document in the Bosnian -- in B/C/S and in English.

21 We have no further questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you will put your

23 first and last name on this document. You will sign the document,

24 please, and make a note of the date. Please make a note of your first

25 and last name and of the date. It's the 19th of January, 2004, today.

Page 1585

1 So we have the document in B/C/S and an English translation; is

2 that correct?

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Prosecution has

5 something? It's a document that was provided by the Prosecution. Any

6 comments on the document?

7 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No objections.

9 Could you show this document to Mr. Kubura.

10 Very well. The Defence, they should have a look.

11 Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number but for the B/C/S.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the B/C/S version will have the

13 exhibit number DK3; the English version will have the exhibit number

14 DK3E.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the Prosecution takes

18 the floor to ask further questions, Witness, the Judges who are before

19 you have been carefully following the questions put to you both by the

20 Prosecution and the Defence. It seems, on the basis of what you said in

21 response to a question from the Defence, that from 1997 you have had

22 neurological problems. In your opinion, the problems that you have had

23 since 1997, are they related to what happened in the Sretno Motel?

24 A. The medical documents from 1993 establish a connection. Before,

25 I didn't have any ailments of any kind.

Page 1586

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you have heard

2 the question put to you by the Defence. The Defence said that when the

3 doctors examined you, according to the document, they stated that your

4 wounds were slight. But you say that there is an additional examination.

5 Is that correct? That there should have been an additional examination

6 which didn't take place; is that correct?

7 A. That was a local clinic, and that's why there was no such

8 additional examination. And I would like to repeat that the doctor

9 couldn't send me anywhere else from Kakanj, because that was the

10 situation. He couldn't send me to another clinic for further and more

11 detailed examinations. But the finding also contains other findings that

12 are related, and all this happened on that fateful day, on the 18th of

13 May.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Does the Prosecution have any other further questions, having

16 heard the questions put to the witness by the Defence? If so, I will ask

17 you to be rapid.

18 MR. MUNDIS: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, your examination has

20 been concluded since the Prosecution has used up the time that they had

21 scheduled for you. And the Defence has also examined you. You have

22 answered their questions. And you have answered the Judges' questions

23 too. We would like to thank you for having come to The Hague, and we

24 wish you a good trip home.

25 I'm now going to ask the usher to escort you out of the

Page 1587

1 courtroom. Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's quarter to 4.00. We will

4 now adjourn for 25 minutes, and the hear willing resume -- the hearing

5 will resume at ten past 4.00 for the examination of the second witness

6 who has been scheduled for today.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The usher will call the next

10 witness into the courtroom, and we will continue with the proceedings.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, Witness. Can you

13 hear the interpretation?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you tell me your first and

16 last name, please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Marinko Marusic.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 5th of June, 1960.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And your place of birth?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kiseljak.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What are you by profession?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a forestry engineer.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what do you do at the

25 moment? What is your job at the moment?

Page 1588

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm involved in some kind of

2 private business in Kakanj.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Where do you live

4 now?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I now live in Kakanj.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 The usher, who is standing by you, will show you a text. It's

8 the solemn declaration that you have to make.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have just taken the solemn

16 declaration. You will now have to answer the Prosecution's questions.

17 They are to your right. They will be examining for about an hour and 45

18 minutes. After they have examined you, the Defence, to your left, will

19 also ask you some questions. And if necessary, the Judges who are

20 sitting before you will also ask you some questions.

21 You should attempt to answer the questions as precisely as

22 possible. Avoid answering yes or no to answers. You should elaborate on

23 your answers. And if there is a question that you don't understand, ask

24 the person asking you to question to repeat it.

25 The Prosecution may now take the floor to proceed with their

Page 1589

1 examination-in-chief.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

3 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

4 Q. Mr. Marusic, can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to

5 whether you have been -- as to whether you have served in any army.

6 A. I haven't served in any army.

7 Q. Can you please inform us in respect to the reason why not.

8 A. I haven't served in an army because as a child I wounded my -- I

9 injured my left eye, so my vision in my left eye has been affected.

10 Q. In May 1993, Mr. Marusic, where did you live in May 1993?

11 A. I was living in Kakanj in May 1993.

12 Q. Can you please tell us since when in May 1993 you lived in

13 Kakanj.

14 A. I was working in Travnik. I worked in Travnik until 1992. But

15 when the war broke out in Bosnia, I went to Kakanj in 1992, perhaps in

16 June or July, because the flat that I had in Travnik, I gave it to

17 Dautovic Smail, a friend of mine, I thought he could live in it. And I

18 went to Kakanj because I thought it was a safer place.

19 Q. Was there an earlier point in time when you used to live in

20 Kakanj?

21 A. Yes. In 1964 I moved to Kakanj. I spent my entire childhood

22 there. I completed primary school there and then secondary school.

23 After that, I studied in Sarajevo. But I would also go to Kakanj. So,

24 in fact, I lived in Kakanj right up until 1986.

25 Q. What was the ethnic background of the people living in Kakanj at

Page 1590

1 the beginning of 1993?

2 A. In 1993, the people living in Kakanj, well, they were members of

3 various ethnic -- of all the ethnic groups. The majority were Bosniaks,

4 and Serbs and Croats.

5 Q. How would you describe the relationship between the Muslims and

6 the Croats in early 1993 in the region of Kakanj?

7 A. Well, the relations between those two peoples were good, one

8 could say. But the policies conducted were such that they were

9 attempting to make the relations between those two peoples deteriorate.

10 Q. And did there come a point in time in 1993 when the relations

11 actually deteriorated?

12 A. Yes. The relations deteriorated for good on the 18th of May,

13 1993. That is when the conflict between -- well, we can put it this way,

14 between the Croats and the Muslims actually broke out.

15 Q. The 18th of May, 1993, what did you do on the 18th of May, 1993?

16 A. On the 18th of May, 1993, I was in my parents' house, naturally.

17 I was outside. I was with my son. He was only three years old. He was

18 born in 1990.

19 Q. Did there come a point in time on the 18th of May, 1993 when you

20 have been arrested?

21 A. Yes. On the 18th of May, 1993, some units entered our

22 settlement. They were in uniform. And they knew exactly which houses

23 were inhabited by Croats or Serbs, and they'd go up to those houses and

24 they started assembling us. And they picked me up in the street too in

25 this fashion.

Page 1591

1 Q. Can you provide us, please, some more details about the units

2 which have entered your settlement.

3 A. Yes. These units were based in the motel, which was more or less

4 an integral part of our local commune, as we called it. We called those

5 units the Muslim armed forces, or MOS would be the abbreviated form.

6 They were in uniform. They had green headbands on them, and they also

7 had green bands on their arms, and on some of them these bands bore the

8 inscription "The police."

9 Q. You were just mentioning, Mr. Marusic, that these units were

10 based in the motel. Can you please tell us which motel you are referring

11 to.

12 A. Yes. That was a motel which is at the railway station or,

13 rather, close to the railway station in Kakanj. It's naturally black.

14 That's our symbol in Kakanj. It's in the shape of a piece of coal,

15 because Kakanj is a mining village.

16 Q. Is there a name, Mr. Marusic, which is used to describe this

17 motel?

18 A. The name of the motel? Well, we called it "the motel." At the

19 moment, it's called a hotel. That's what it says on the building now.

20 Whether it's a matter of categories, I don't know. But I know that when

21 it was built and when it opened for business, I know that it was called a

22 motel.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit

24 P10.

25 I understand that the ELMO is not working. Is that correct?

Page 1592

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Can the photograph please be put on the ELMO.

3 Is my conclusion correct that it is not working?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, apparently it's not

5 working. So we should use the photograph, then, unless you have a copy

6 of the document.

7 MR. WITHOPF: My intention was to use Sanction, Mr. President,

8 but I have been informed that Sanction isn't working either today. So I

9 would like to have the photograph be put in front of the witness.

10 Q. Mr. Marusic, can you explain what you can see on the photograph

11 that has been put in front of you.

12 A. On the photograph, I can see the motel. That's the building we

13 were incarcerated in and beaten up. And in front of the motel - I don't

14 know whether you can see it - but I can see a parking lot, and my house

15 is situated behind the motel, about 200 metres away.

16 Q. Coming back to the units which arrested you. To your knowledge,

17 were these units based in this hotel -- in this motel you can see on the

18 photograph?

19 A. Yes, that's right. Those units were in this facility.

20 Q. You were describing the individuals which arrested you as wearing

21 uniforms. Did you recognise any military insignia on these uniforms?

22 A. Yes, I did. They were wearing uniforms specific to those units.

23 Mostly they had green bands around their heads and around their arms,

24 bands or ribbons. And on their belts they had two crossed sabres or

25 knives, and it said "Muslim armed forces" on it. And we abbreviated that

Page 1593

1 to MOS, which is what we called them.

2 Q. Witness, do you recall as to whether there was something else on

3 this emblem?

4 A. As far as I remember - and that was 11 years ago now - they were

5 like two crossed sabres. That was the insignia. And I think that the

6 outlines of a territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina were embossed on it too,

7 and that it said "Muslim armed forces," and I think that territory was

8 also covered in green. It was green.

9 Q. Once you were arrested on the 18th of May, 1993, have you been

10 told anything at the time you have been arrested?

11 A. No. When I was arrested, they didn't say anything, but they knew

12 full well who they were supposed to arrest. They didn't let us talk to

13 each other. I was wearing women's slippers, actually, at the time,

14 because I was looking after my son and I happened to have them on. The

15 gentleman who -- rather, the man who arrested me didn't allow me to go

16 back into my house to take my personal documents with me, nor did he let

17 me change into some shoes or some proper slippers. But he just cocked an

18 automatic rifle at me and ordered me to march ahead in front of him.

19 Q. Where did the soldier order you to march to?

20 A. He had his rifle pointed at me, and he ordered me to start

21 walking towards the motel. We didn't take the route that is usually

22 taken. He led me across the courtyards of other houses, took a shortcut.

23 So I had to jump across fences and walls.

24 Q. We are talking about the 18th of May, 1993. At what point in

25 time during the day was it when you were ordered to walk to the Motel

Page 1594

1 Sretno?

2 A. It was sometime in the afternoon, around 1700 hours.

3 Q. Did you get to know prior to arriving at the Motel Sretno as to

4 whether other people have been arrested as well?

5 A. Yes, I did know. They told us that some units were going around

6 arresting Serbs and Croats at random. And before they arrested me,

7 they'd already taken away my brother and a friend of mine, Ljubisa

8 Vucenovic was his name.

9 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the full name

10 of your brother.

11 A. Josip Marusic. And he was born in 1965.

12 Q. Once you arrived at the Motel Sretno, what did happen to you?

13 A. May I just be allowed to add one more point? While they were

14 taking me through my village, there were some neighbours, and they stood

15 up to them and said, "Why are you taking these young men away? They're

16 not to blame for anything." But the man who had his weapon pointed at me

17 said, "Keep quiet or I'll shoot you, fill you with lead." That's what I

18 wanted to add.

19 Q. Very well. Once you arrived at the Motel Sretno, what did happen

20 to you?

21 A. When we arrived -- or rather, when I arrived at the motel, I

22 found about seven or eight other detainees there. That's my estimate, at

23 least. And I, of course, thought that I was going to be questioned,

24 interrogated, and that they would take me into an office somewhere. And

25 I had faith in the fact that I was born in Kakanj, that I went to school

Page 1595

1 there, I graduated from secondary school there and went to school with

2 some people who were in authority now and that some of the professors who

3 were in power used to teach me. So I didn't think that I was to blame

4 for anything, that I would just be questioned and allowed to go home.

5 This did not happen.

6 They took us to the basement of the motel straight away. I think

7 it was part of the boiler room of the motel, in fact. And some five or

8 ten minutes later they started beating me.

9 Q. You were mentioning that at the point in time you arrived at the

10 Motel Sretno there were already seven or eight other detainees there.

11 These detainees, were they all men or were there also women amongst them?

12 A. They were all men.

13 Q. Can you inform the Trial Chamber about the ethnicity of these

14 men, as far as you can tell.

15 A. At the end, when all the detainees were brought in - and there

16 were 16 of us - I know exactly who was who. Of the 16, there were 12

17 Croats and 4 of the Orthodox faith, or Serbs, whichever you like to put

18 it.

19 Q. These 16 Croats and Serbs, were they civilians or were they

20 members of any army?

21 A. Well, of those 16 of us who were detained, all of us were

22 civilians except for one man, who was wearing a uniform. The bottom part

23 was a camouflage uniform. And I know his name was Lovro, his first name.

24 I don't know his surname. He was a refugee in Kakanj. And I think that

25 he was the only one who was a member of the Croatian Defence Council.

Page 1596

1 Q. Can you please provide the Trial Chamber with the names of the

2 other detainees as far as you can recall.

3 A. I know quite a lot of them, their names, because they were all

4 neighbours of mine. There was myself, Marinko Marusic; and my brother,

5 Josip; Petrovic Nikola, who's already been here in the courtroom; then

6 there was Zeljko Krkeljas and his brother, Mladenko Krkeljas; then there

7 was Radovan Blazenovic and another young man from Catici, Nenad Bogelja.

8 And there were some refugees who were from Ilijas. And we were all put

9 up there. I just know their first names. There was a man called Drago.

10 And that's it.

11 Q. At what point in time during the 18th of May, 1993 were you the

12 16 detainees you were just referring to?

13 A. Well, the group increased in number until there were finally 16

14 of us. Nikola Petrovic was brought in after me, and he's just testified.

15 Then Nenad Bogelja was brought in, and some others. I can't remember

16 exactly, but after an hour or an hour and a half, there were a total of

17 16 of us.

18 Q. These 16 detainees, were they all put in the very same room?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please describe the size of this room.

21 A. Well, the room was one space, but on the left-hand side there

22 were some iron bars, and we were in that part behind the bars. And that

23 part might have been about 30 square metres.

24 Q. What about the light in this detention room?

25 A. There was no light in the room. It was a damp room, and the

Page 1597

1 floor was concrete. And it was wet too, fairly dirty as well, and it was

2 a rough surface. It wasn't a smooth floor.

3 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber what happened to you

4 after you had been brought to this detention room.

5 A. Yes. As I've already said, I was brought into the room, and I

6 thought we would be going somewhere else, leaving the room. But about

7 five or ten minutes later they took me out, and without any warning at

8 all or without asking me anything they began beating me. I just tried to

9 ask them why they were beating us and why have you arrested us. Because

10 I said I felt myself to be a Bosnian, and that's why I stayed at home.

11 However, one of the men, one of the members of the unit, swore at me and

12 said that they were creating a dzamahirija and that there was no Bosnia.

13 And then they started beating me. And after that, every conversation

14 ended in my being beaten even more.

15 And the other men told me that the same thing happened to them.

16 So that by the end of the day we just decided to keep quiet and just take

17 the beatings in silence.

18 Q. For clarification, Mr. Marusic, what does a dzamahirija, what

19 does it actually mean?

20 A. I don't know the exact translation, but I think that this member

21 of the unit who beat me meant that he belonged to a unit which was

22 established -- in the process of establishing a Muslim state.

23 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what objects have

24 been used to beat you.

25 A. They beat us with a variety of objects. There were the wooden

Page 1598

1 batons and rifle butts. They also beat me with a metal hook. It was in

2 the shape of an "S." And they beat us on the shoulders, mostly, with

3 that metal hook. Then they would beat us with the back of a metal chair.

4 It was -- the back was made up of a metal rod. And they were wearing

5 boots, so they kicked us with their boots and their fists, and they even

6 beat us with a chain. But it was difficult for them to wield the chain,

7 so that they decided to leave the chain and use the other implements.

8 Q. The ones who beat you, were these civilians or were these

9 soldiers?

10 A. They were soldiers.

11 Q. Did you see any military insignia on their uniforms?

12 A. I noticed that they were wearing uniforms, military uniforms.

13 And on their belts they had the MOS emblem that I described.

14 Q. Was it the very same emblem as you described earlier on in

15 respect to the soldier who actually arrested you the very same day?

16 A. Yes, that's right. And I forgot to say a moment ago that all of

17 them had long beards.

18 Q. These soldiers with the long beards, were they local soldiers or

19 were they foreign soldiers?

20 A. Well, they were local ones.

21 Q. How often have you been beaten in the course of this night?

22 A. I was beaten four times, and they would take us out one by one so

23 that all of us were beaten in the same way mostly and as much as each

24 other.

25 Q. At what part of your body have you been beaten?

Page 1599

1 A. They beat us all over our bodies. And I assume that they were

2 people who knew some combat skills already, because they knew exactly at

3 which points to beat us. They beat me in the region of my liver and my

4 genitalia and on my back and head.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: The area of my

6 heart.


8 Q. Did they also beat you on your head?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were there any --

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we have a

12 mistake in the interpretation. Line 10 says that he was beaten in the

13 region of his liver, back, head, but there's also the word "genitalia."

14 And the witness did not say that.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as line 10 is

16 concerned, we can ask the question again so that he can say exactly where

17 he was beaten on his body, if there was a query there.

18 So, Mr. Withopf, would you ask the witness to be specific and

19 tell us again.


21 Q. Mr. Marusic, you were describing that you have been beaten in the

22 region of your liver, in the region of your back, in the area of your

23 heart, and in the area of your head. Have there been any other body

24 parts you have been beaten at?

25 A. Yes. The worst injuries were around my liver and also on my

Page 1600

1 back, and I have haematoma from the beatings. As for the other

2 detainees, on the photographs I saw later on, I saw that there were

3 considerable injuries to the arms and legs which were caused when they

4 tried to protect themselves from the blows, to protect their arms and

5 legs from the blows.

6 Q. Do you recall any other beatings, beatings that haven't been

7 inflicted by the guards on you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Have you been ordered -- have the detainees been ordered to beat

10 each other?

11 A. Yes. They beat me a total of four times, as I have already said.

12 And they forced me to beat the witness that was here a moment ago, Nikola

13 Petrovic, and they did that on two occasions. The first time we had to

14 beat each other with our fists. And when they thought that we weren't

15 beating each other strongly enough, that the blows weren't hard enough,

16 instead of me, they would step in and start beating us, either him or me,

17 so that the two of us had to slap each other and hit each other. That

18 was the first time.

19 The second time, they ordered me -- they ordered Nikola to lie

20 down and ordered me to kick him in the kidney region. I tried to make --

21 to avoid kicking him in the ribs and kidneys, and I would kick him a

22 little lower down in the hip area. But they didn't like that, so then I

23 had to lie down and one of the soldiers jumped on me. I was lying down

24 on my stomach. He jumped on my chest and hit me a couple of times,

25 kicked me with his legs, and then said, "See, that's how it's done." And

Page 1601

1 then he hit Nikola himself several times, instead of hitting me.

2 Q. In the course of this night, have you been ordered by the ones

3 who beat you to shout something?

4 A. Yes. We had to shout words like "Allah-U-Ekber" and when they

5 said "Tekbir." So they would say "Tekbir," and our response would have

6 to be "Allah-U-Ekber." And we had to repeat that as much as 100 times

7 perhaps.

8 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to whether all 16

9 detainees have been beaten.

10 A. Yes. All of us were beaten.

11 Q. And can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to whether all 16

12 detainees have been beaten to the very same extent as you have been

13 beaten.

14 A. We were mostly beaten -- all of us were beaten, mostly, I think,

15 to the same degree; the same extent, roughly speaking.

16 Q. Can you please tell us, Mr. Marusic, about the injuries which

17 have been the result of these beatings, about your injuries.

18 A. My injuries -- well, when I was dragged home - I wasn't able to

19 go home on my own - my back was all black and blue. You couldn't put

20 your finger anywhere in a spot that wasn't black or blue, bruised. I was

21 in a semiconscious state, and I couldn't see properly. My eyes were

22 glazed over. The initial findings, when I was examined, showed that my

23 liver had been enlarged, that I had a haematoma underneath my left and

24 right ribcage, that my sedimentation was high. So that's as far as I'm

25 concerned. I also had an injury on the left side of my head here.

Page 1602

1 That's as far as my injuries go.

2 Q. What do you know about the injuries of the other detainees as a

3 result of these beatings?

4 A. Well, I know about the injuries of the people I met shortly after

5 that event. Mr. Nikola Petrovic had also sustained grave injuries;

6 that's the young man who preceded me. He had injuries to the head. I

7 think he had seven stitches. Because of that wound, he still has to see

8 a neuropsychiatrist even today. I don't think his situation is a good

9 one, as far as that is concerned. And that concerns that wound. He also

10 had wounds to the back.

11 The backs of all of us had been bruised, and our arms as well.

12 And there were quite a few injuries to the legs. My brother's bone was

13 fissured. It was either the left or the right arm - I think it was the

14 left - and it was in plaster. I know about Bogelja Nenad, that he had

15 also sustained quite serious injuries. I think they asked him to bring

16 them some kind of money. He said he should -- he would go and get all

17 the money so long as they didn't beat him up. He said he had two

18 children. But that didn't help him at all.

19 So all the injuries were quite serious ones.

20 Q. Mr. Marusic, do you still suffer today from the injuries that

21 have been the result of these beatings?

22 A. Well, yes, I still have trouble, problems because of the

23 consequences. I have problems with my liver, which shows up in the

24 findings. I still have high sedimentation. And I haven't checked this,

25 but I have certain psychological problems. A sad film can make me cry

Page 1603

1 very easily, or when I see what the fate of some children is, this

2 affects me. I'm quite sensitive when it comes to this.

3 Q. At what point in time during the night from the 18th to the 19th

4 of May, 1993, did the beatings stop?

5 A. The beatings stopped sometime in the morning, at 4.00 in the

6 morning. And if I hadn't been -- if we hadn't been saved by someone, I

7 don't think the beatings would have stopped. The guard who was guarding

8 us, he ran out of cigarettes and he went to get some cigarettes and he

9 locked the bars behind which we were located so that sometime around 4.00

10 in the morning these young men turned up as usual, probably to beat us

11 again, but on that occasion I saw that they had knives on them too. But

12 they weren't able to enter, since the chain had been locked. They asked

13 us where the guard was. And out of fear, we said that he'd gone to get

14 some cigarettes. I think that this is what saved us, because I for sure,

15 and probably four or five other young men, would certainly not have been

16 able to withstand another beating.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you have been questioned at the Motel

18 Sretno?

19 A. Yes. That was the longest night. We could hardly wait for a new

20 day. At around 6.00 in the morning they interrogated us.

21 Q. The ones who interrogated you, were they the same individuals as

22 the ones who beat you?

23 A. I was interrogated by a gentleman in civilian clothing. He

24 wasn't in uniform. I don't know what his name was. He was dark, heavy

25 built, fairly good-looking, and a member of the MOS was standing by his

Page 1604

1 side. He had a beard, and that MOS member who appeared in the morning is

2 someone I knew. At the time, I did not recognise him. I know his first

3 and last name. We worked together in Travnik. And that young man, that

4 member, as I was his boss, he helped me wash in the morning -- or rather,

5 he washed me, and he offered to take me home. And it wasn't until we got

6 into the car -- I didn't recognise him. He said who he was. He said,

7 "You know that I worked with you," and so on.

8 Q. How did you know that this person who was standing beside the

9 person in civilian clothing has been a MOS member at the time?

10 A. Well, on the basis of the uniform he was in. He had a long

11 beard -- he had a long beard, and he had a belt which identified him. It

12 was quite clear from the belt that the unit concerned belonged to the

13 Muslim armed forces.

14 Q. Was there anybody else other than the man in civilian clothing,

15 the other man in a MOS uniform, was there anybody else who was present

16 during the questioning?

17 A. Not when they interrogated me, not at that time. There were only

18 the two of them. But in the morning, when they lined us up, when we were

19 released, I don't remember there being anyone else.

20 Q. What did they question you about?

21 A. Well, the member I've mentioned, the one who took me home, the

22 one I had worked with, he was standing on the side in an upright

23 position. He didn't say anything. Only the gentleman who was sitting

24 there and kept a record, it was only he who asked us for our names,

25 places of birth, where we were employed, what sort of units we had been

Page 1605

1 members of, what our jobs in Kakanj were at the time. He asked us such

2 questions, questions of a general nature.

3 Q. Did there come a time on this day when you actually have been

4 released?

5 A. Yes. I was perhaps the first one to be released, since this

6 young man knew me. He helped me and my brother. I told him that my

7 brother was detained there too. He said when we were alone that he --

8 that if he had known that I was there, nothing would have happened to me,

9 most likely. I said that all the others were just as guilty as I was; in

10 other words, that no one was guilty, because all the people there were

11 civilians. I asked him if he could help my brother too, because I was

12 feeling sure of myself to a certain extent. He asked me who my brother

13 was, and I said that it was the young man in the chequered shirt. And he

14 said, "Tell him to go out now so that I know who he is." And in the

15 morning, when they interrogated us, he helped me wash. He took me out of

16 the motel. I was released perhaps -- well, I can't say exactly now, but

17 I think it was about 8.00 in the morning, and MOS members were sitting

18 around the motel near the parking on the grass, and they insulted me

19 because of my ethnic membership and they also shouted out "Allah-U-Ekber"

20 to me.

21 He told me to remain silent. He said I shouldn't react. He took

22 me as far as the car. I think it was a jeep. And he took me to my

23 house. Naturally, I thanked him and asked him if he wanted to come in

24 with me. He said that he was ashamed and that there was no sense in him

25 entering my house.

Page 1606

1 Q. At the time you have been -- you have been questioned, were your

2 injuries still visible?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether the other detainees were questioned as well?

5 A. Yes. I wasn't aware of what was happening in the military sense

6 in Kakanj. They interrogated me. They interrogated my brother. I don't

7 know how many others were interrogated. But all I know is that all the

8 Croats were released that morning and earlier than the Serbs, before the

9 Serbs.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]


12 Q. Mr. Marusic, in the course of today's testimony, you a number of

13 times referred to Niko Petrovic who you identified as having testified

14 earlier on today. Did you recently talk to Mr. Niko Petrovic in respect

15 to your testimony here before this Tribunal?

16 A. To Niko? Well, no, not until I, too, was called to testify. We

17 are quite different characters. I think that this testimony unsettled

18 him quite a lot. I think that he even complained to me about not being

19 able to sleep when he received the summons to come and testify. But

20 until the last moment I didn't even tell him that I was going to testify

21 for that very reason, because there's nothing more to be said. I mean,

22 you can say a lot of things, but you end up not saying anything in

23 particular.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Marusic.

25 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

Page 1607












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1608

1 point in time.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, before the Defence

6 takes the floor for its cross-examination, I would like you to tell me

7 who the person who released you and took you to your home was. You

8 invited him in, but the person refused to go into your house. Who was

9 this person, someone you must have known?

10 A. Yes. His name is Ismet Dervic. He worked in the furniture

11 factory in the place called Turbe, near Travnik. I was his boss. He

12 worked for me on a lathe. He was a good worker. I know that he trained

13 karate. At the time I think that he had a black belt. And he lives in

14 Travnik in the village of Bijelo Buce.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as he was in the detention

16 facility, what was his position? Was he a civilian? Was he a member of

17 the military? As far as you know, what duties did he perform?

18 A. Well, he was in uniform, so he was a member of the military. But

19 I don't know exactly what duties he performed, but I assume that he may

20 have been the bodyguard of the person who interrogated us.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And to the best of your

22 knowledge, did he hold a superior position or a subordinate position?

23 A. I think he was a subordinate.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 I will now ask the Defence to proceed with their

Page 1609

1 cross-examination.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

3 Mr. President.

4 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Marusic?

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I represent General Hadzihasanovic.

8 And I would appreciate it if you could answer a number of questions of

9 mine.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, you said that you went to Kakanj again in 1992 and that

12 you believed that it was a safer place for you. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. During your stay in Kakanj and before the events that you have

15 described to the Trial Chamber today, you were not a member of a military

16 formation of any kind.

17 A. No, I wasn't.

18 Q. However, you were aware of the fact that there were BH Army units

19 in Kakanj, as well as units of the HVO; there were HVO brigades there.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Up until April 1993, the HVO brigade was deployed in the centre

22 of Kakanj in the so-called Elementara and it then relocated to the

23 village of Haljinici 5 kilometres east of the city towards Vares and

24 Kraljeva Sutjeska; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 1610

1 Q. At the beginning of 1993, you were able to follow the media; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. You noticed or you found out that although it was fairly peaceful

5 in Kakanj, an armed conflict between the BH Army and the HVO had broken

6 out; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. In January 1993, these conflicts were ongoing in the area of

9 Kiseljak and Busovaca, and in April they were ongoing in Vitez, Ahmici,

10 and in other parts of Bosnia; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. This realisation also made the fear of uncontrolled revenge taken

13 by individuals against the inhabitants of other nationalities in Kakanj

14 itself. It made this fear even greater. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Before these events and because of this tension, some of the

17 Croats started leaving Kakanj, but you and your family didn't leave. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At the same time, the HVO issued appeals to the Croatian

21 population to withdraw in the direction of Vares and Busovaca, but as you

22 said, you felt that you were a Bosnian and you thought that you should

23 remain at home; is that correct?

24 A. Yes. But I would like to point out that no one asked me to

25 withdraw, as I wasn't a member of a unit of any kind. Because of my

Page 1611

1 personal feelings, I remained at home.

2 Q. However, you know that some people did receive such appeals; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Well, I don't know about anyone receiving appeals. Perhaps. But

5 I really didn't receive anything.

6 Q. As you said, on the 18th of May, at around 1700 hours a number of

7 soldiers came to collect you and they came to your house and they took

8 you to the Sretno Motel. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You could see that those soldiers were fairly frustrated; is that

11 correct?

12 A. I don't know what the word "frustrated" means. Perhaps I'd use a

13 different and more appropriate word. I don't think it was a matter of

14 frustration. To me they seemed, well, I would say drugged.

15 Q. Well, you testified about your maltreatment in the basement of

16 the Sretno Motel. You said that one of them said that this would be a

17 dzamahirija.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Before this hearing, you told an investigator from The Hague --

20 you gave an investigator from The Hague Tribunal a statement; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you didn't mention what this soldier told you to this person,

24 to the investigator, because it didn't come to mind at the time.

25 A. I don't know whether I testified with regard to that earlier on,

Page 1612

1 but what I have claimed about what this person told me is correct. But

2 there are many other details that I have not testified about today

3 either. I thought that this was quite sufficient. But the claim I made,

4 that this is what I was told when I asked a question, is quite correct.

5 Q. One of those soldiers also told you, you thought that no revenge

6 would be taken because of Ahmici; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. At the time, you knew that a month before you had been taken away

9 there was a massacre in Ahmici; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That was a massacre against the Muslim population; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At about 4.00 in the morning on the following day, on the 19th of

15 May, you said that you were detained or, rather, locked up in this part

16 of the basement, and that saved all of you from additional maltreatment;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So after this soldier who had locked you up went to get

20 cigarettes, after that, none of you suffered further maltreatment at the

21 hands of the soldiers who had maltreated you in the course of the night;

22 is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The people who interrogated you early in the morning - and you

25 said that one of them was a civilian - you said that one of them was

Page 1613

1 called Ismet Dervic - these persons weren't in the basement at night. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the course of that interrogation, you weren't maltreated at

5 all; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Immediately after that interrogation -- or rather, shortly after

8 the interrogation had been concluded, this soldier took you to your

9 house. He drove you there. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Please tell me: After that, did you remain in Kakanj?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does Mr. Kubura's Defence team

17 have any questions for the witness?

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't have any

19 questions for this witness.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 If the Prosecution doesn't have any further questions -- I'll

22 turn to the Prosecution.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no

24 further questions.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, thank you for having

Page 1614

1 come to The Hague to answer the questions put to you by the Prosecution

2 and the Defence. You've answered all the questions put to you. We thank

3 you for your testimony, and we wish you a good trip home. The usher will

4 escort you out of the courtroom.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If there are no further

8 questions or comments to be made by either of the sides, we will resume

9 tomorrow at 9.00, since we will be sitting in the morning this week,

10 unless Mr. Withopf has something to say.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, the Prosecution wishes to address a

12 number of issues related to the witness schedule for this week. Since

13 such issues also relate to applications for protective measures, I would

14 like to address these issues in closed session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1615














14 Pages 1615 1624 redacted. Closed session.












Page 1625

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.25 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of

17 January, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.