Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2002

1 Tuesday, 27 January 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

7 the case number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution.

12 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

13 Your Honours. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Ekkehard Withopf,

14 with Kimberly Fleming, the case manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And the appearances

16 for the Defence, please.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

18 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, Stephane Bourgon, and

19 Mirna Milanovic, our legal assistant. Thank you.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Mr. Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and

22 Mr. Nermin Mulalic, our legal assistant.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to

24 greet everyone present, the Prosecution, the Defence, and the accused.

25 We'll resume with the cross-examination of Witness XE today.

Page 2003

1 But prior to giving the floor to the Defence to conduct their

2 cross-examination, I would like to point out a few matters that concern

3 clarifications. I'd like to point this out to the witness.

4 Witness, you have taken the solemn declaration and you have sworn

5 to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, which means that you should

6 not lie and give false testimony. I would also like to point out to you,

7 in accordance with Rule 90 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, that

8 you can refuse to make any kind of statement that might incriminate you.

9 And in such a case, the Trial Chamber has the right to force you to

10 reply. If you answer the question, what you say in response can't be

11 used as evidence against you. But this provision doesn't allow you to

12 give false testimony, because proceedings can always be instituted

13 against you for false testimony, whatever the case.

14 So when a question is put to you, tell the truth and answer the

15 questions put to you precisely. If you don't want to answer a question,

16 tell us why you don't want to answer the question. The Trial Chamber is

17 constantly monitoring your testimony, and naturally it is the right of

18 the Defence to ask you any questions that they deem useful for the

19 defence of their clients and to put any questions that are relevant with

20 regard to the charges contained in the indictment.

21 In addition, the Defence can also ask you questions that have to

22 do with the general context within which the events unfolded. If you

23 have any difficulty in answering a question, do inform us.

24 So the Trial Chamber would like to ask you to answer the

25 questions which are put to you, which is what you did yesterday when the

Page 2004

1 Defence was conducting its cross-examination.

2 The Defence may now proceed with their cross-examination.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to ask whether

4 protective measures were still in place. Is the procedure the same as

5 yesterday?

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The protective measures are

7 still in place. You have facial distortion and no one is aware of your

8 name. If Defence counsel needs to ask you questions that might either

9 directly or indirectly reveal your identity, that might have to do with

10 your identity, in such cases the Defence will act in a professional

11 manner, as it has done to date, and request that we go into private

12 session before asking you such questions. So the Defence will bear your

13 concerns in mind, and the Trial Chamber will do so as well.

14 We are in open session at the moment. The proceedings will take

15 place in open session, but protective measures are in place. And to

16 fully inform you of everything, this means that when broadcast to the

17 exterior, to the outside world, you will have facial distortion. You

18 will benefit with facial distortion. And your name will not be

19 mentioned. If there is something that might reveal your identity

20 indirectly, we will redact this information. But we should point out

21 that the proceedings are broadcast to the outside world but there is a

22 30-minute delay. So what is said at 2.25 will only be broadcast to the

23 outside world after half an hour, so that gives us sufficient time to

24 make corrections. At any point in time, the Defence can ask to go into

25 private session. But if you yourself want to make such a request, if you

Page 2005

1 want to request a private session, you should ask me.

2 Have you understood what I am saying?

3 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]

4 MS. RESIDOVIC [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. And

5 good day, Mr. XE.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

9 Q. [Interpretation] I want to continue from where we stopped

10 yesterday.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before that, while we're still in

12 private session, I would like to ask the usher to --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are not in private session.

14 We are in open session.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for my mistake, but

16 it is not yet necessary to go into private session.

17 Q. Before we go into private session, I would like to ask the usher

18 to distribute an additional translation of a statement into B/C/S to

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 I would also like to ask the witness to be shown his handwritten

24 statement in B/C/S, in addition to this supplement, and also the

25 statement that he gave to the OTP. I would also like to ask the

Page 2006

1 statement of the Prosecution to be provided to the witness, which we will

2 use in the course of our cross-examination.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to point out

4 that the registrar should make an order to redact line 18, 19, and 20, as

5 the police station in Boden has been mentioned and the date. And this

6 could also enable the witness to be identified.

7 Please continue.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Has the usher also provided the

9 witness with the B/C/S version which he identified yesterday, the B/C/S

10 version of his handwritten statement and the B/C/S statement that he gave

11 to the OTP?

12 And could we now go into private session.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we'll go into private

14 session.

15 Mr. Registrar, please take the necessary steps.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2007












12 Pages 2007 2063 redacted. Private session.














Page 2064

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session again.

13 It's quarter past 5.00. We'll have a break, a half-an-hour break, and

14 we'll resume at quarter to 6.00 and we will continue until 7.00.

15 Unfortunately, the second witness might have to appear in the courtroom

16 tomorrow, but we'll see.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing is resumed.

20 I pointed out a moment ago that we will render our decision

21 tomorrow morning regarding the admission into evidence of the documents

22 produced by the Defence. Does the Prosecution also need to tell us their

23 position? Perhaps they're not in a position to convey that position to

24 us before tomorrow afternoon at the beginning of the hearing. If we hear

25 that position of the Prosecution tomorrow, then we will render our

Page 2065

1 decision later, in view of the fact that these documents have all been

2 marked for identification only.

3 We have one hour and 15 minutes, and we'll bring in the next

4 witness.

5 Mr. Usher, could you please bring in the next witness.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. Can you

8 hear my words in your own language?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called to testify

11 today by the Prosecution, and to do that you will first tell me your

12 first and last name.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bozo Pavlovic.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 2nd of August, 1957.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Miletici.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current

19 occupation?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not doing anything at the

21 moment. I am sick. Yes, I am on sick leave.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And before being sick, did you

23 have an occupation?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what was it?

Page 2066

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked in Sumarija, the forestry.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where are you living now? In

3 what town?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm now living in Srb, in Croatia.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You will now read

6 the solemn declaration in your own language.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

12 As you know, you have been called by the Prosecution to testify about

13 facts that occurred many years ago. The Prosecution will have a series

14 of questions for you. The Prosecution is on your right. And the

15 Defence, who are seated to your left, will also have questions for you

16 after the Prosecution. The Judges, who are in front of you, may also ask

17 you questions if they consider that to be useful, in order to establish

18 the truth.

19 You have taken the solemn oath, so it is your duty to tell the

20 whole truth and, therefore, to fully and with precision answer questions

21 put to you. If you don't understand the meaning of a particular

22 question, you can ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it.

23 I wish also to inform you that if there are any questions which

24 require answers from you which might incriminate you, at that point the

25 Chamber may ask you to respond nevertheless, but what you say cannot be

Page 2067

1 used against you. Similarly, as you are testifying after taking the

2 solemn declaration, should you testify falsely, you could be subject to

3 legal proceedings, to prosecution.

4 Have you understood everything that I told you by way of

5 introduction?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand everything you

7 said.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 I'm now going to give the floor to a representative of the

10 Prosecution, and I greet him, because he has just arrived. So,

11 Mr. Stamp, you have the floor.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Mr. President, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Mr. Stamp:

14 Q. Mr. Pavlovic, can you briefly tell us the nature of your illness.

15 A. I have nervous trouble. I also have an ulcer and I have problems

16 with my spine.

17 Q. From about when did you become afflicted with this nervous

18 trouble?

19 A. Since 1993, when what happened happened.

20 Q. Can you tell us the village and the municipality that you were

21 born in.

22 A. Travnik municipality, the village of Miletici.

23 Q. Did you live in -- did you live there as well, up until 1993?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And did you live there with your family?

Page 2068

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you live in any particular part of Miletici?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which part was that?

5 A. At the end of the village, that is where my house was.

6 Q. Are there -- well, is there a part of Miletici known as Gornji

7 Miletici and another one known as Donji Miletici?

8 A. Yes. Yes. And I lived in Gornji Miletici.

9 Q. Can you tell us the ethnic composition of these two parts of

10 Miletici at the time when you lived there.

11 A. We lived well. No one offended anybody. Everything was okay,

12 until 1993.

13 Q. Gornji Miletici was occupied by Croats or persons of Croat

14 ethnicity in particular, and Donji Miletici was occupied by persons who

15 were Muslims; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Croats lived in Gornji Miletici, and Muslims in Donji

17 Miletici.

18 Q. Now, what sort of work did you do until you left there in 1993?

19 A. I worked in the Sumarija.

20 Q. And what is that?

21 A. It is a company for cutting timber.

22 Q. Now, in the area where you lived, was there a school known as

23 Zagradje?

24 A. Yes, there is such a school.

25 Q. Now, in the -- in 1992, did you observe any particular type of

Page 2069

1 activity that was being conducted there?

2 A. Yes. That is where the Mujahedin were staying, at the school.

3 Q. Do you know if they -- well, can you describe what you mean when

4 you say "the Mujahedin."

5 A. They were foreigners, foreign Muslim units that had come from

6 Arab countries.

7 Q. Did they dress in any particular way or were they groomed in any

8 particular way?

9 A. Yes. They wore white long shirts or something like dresses.

10 Q. Apart from staying at the school, did these Mujahedin conduct any

11 particular activities there, in relation to some members of the local

12 Muslim population?

13 A. Of course they did. The Muslims were with them in their units,

14 and they were training the Muslims.

15 Q. They were training which Muslims? Do you mean by that the local

16 Muslims?

17 A. Yes, yes, the local Muslims, the villagers.

18 Q. Very well. I'd like to take you to the 24th of April, 1993.

19 That afternoon at about 5.00, where were you?

20 A. I was tending my sheep. I had ten sheep, and I was grazing them.

21 Q. Where was this that you were grazing your sheep?

22 A. Just above my village, about 300 metres away from my house.

23 Q. Now, while you were doing this, did you see anyone approaching?

24 A. Yes. I saw they were coming in cars from Donji Miletici. I had

25 no idea what it was all about nor who they were.

Page 2070

1 Q. What happened after you saw these cars coming from Donji

2 Miletici?

3 A. They parked, and then three men came up to us, Dedo Suljic, Avdo

4 Suljic, and Akif Suljic.

5 Q. These three men who came up to you, who were they? Did you know

6 them before?

7 A. Yes. They are from Donji Miletici. I knew them from before.

8 They were brothers, three brothers.

9 Q. What ethnicity were they?

10 A. They were Muslims.

11 Q. These men that came up to you, did they tell you anything?

12 A. They came to the village, and they said that we should all gather

13 together in the village.

14 Q. What else, if anything, did they tell you to do?

15 A. They said that we should gather and that the Mujahedin had

16 surrounded the village and that they would kill us.

17 Q. Go on. Anything else they said?

18 A. Yes, they did. They said, "We will protect you. You shouldn't

19 flee anywhere."

20 Q. Now, did you say or do anything?

21 A. Yes, I did. I said at the time that we should flee. "How are

22 you going to protect us when you have a son of yours in that unit?"

23 Q. What happened after that?

24 A. Then we saw them approaching the village, and I fled.

25 Q. You saw who approaching the village?

Page 2071

1 A. I saw the Muslim army approaching.

2 Q. Well, can you tell us exactly what you saw.

3 A. I saw that they were coming towards the village with rifles and

4 then they started shooting.

5 Q. Now, just for the record, the village you're speaking of is

6 Gornji Miletici?

7 A. Yes. Yes, Gornji Miletici.

8 Q. About how many households were there in Gornji Miletici at this

9 time?

10 A. I think about 13 households, something like that.

11 Q. As these persons approached, they -- withdrawn.

12 As the -- as the Muslim army approached, where were these

13 persons, that is, the people who resided in Gornji Miletici?

14 A. We had all gathered together at one spot, and then the children

15 started crying and the women got afraid, and I said, "Let's run away,"

16 and we did.

17 Q. How many ran away?

18 A. No one. I did. The others stayed behind in the village.

19 Q. Where did you run to?

20 A. I ran to my house, and then from my house I crossed over a wall

21 and fled into the woods.

22 Q. As you fled into the woods, did you see anything going on in the

23 village?

24 A. When I was fleeing, I didn't. But later, maybe an hour later, I

25 saw them taking people out of the village.

Page 2072

1 Q. Who did you see taking people out of the village?

2 A. I saw my parents being led out and all the other neighbours, who

3 were tied up, including the children, and they were taking them away.

4 Q. So who was taking them away?

5 A. The Muslims were taking them away.

6 Q. And where were you when you saw this?

7 A. I was behind my house, about 300 metres away. I had some

8 protection in the woods. And they were going along the road, so I could

9 see them all as they were being led away.

10 Q. What happened after you saw these people being led away? Did you

11 remain in the woods, or did you go anywhere?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I remained in the woods.

13 Q. For how long?

14 A. I stayed there until darkness fell.

15 Q. And what happened after that? Could you just relate to the Court

16 in your own words what you did after that.

17 A. After that, I spent the night there. I heard shots when they

18 were taking these away. I spent the night there. And then in the

19 morning, I went to the houses and I saw that some had been taken away,

20 others were absent. I thought they were hiding someplace, so I went

21 looking for them.

22 Q. You said you heard shots.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you -- can you say, even approximately, where the sound of

25 the firing of shots was coming from?

Page 2073

1 A. This was happening in between the houses, so I couldn't really

2 tell what the direction of the fire was.

3 Q. You said you went to the houses in the morning. About what time

4 did you go to the houses?

5 A. I don't know exactly what time it was, but it was early morning.

6 It was light, and I went from one house to the next. I first went to my

7 own house.

8 Q. Tell us what you saw and what you found as you went from house to

9 house.

10 A. When I went from my house, I went to Stipo Pavlovic's house. It

11 was right next to my house. And when I went inside and opened the door,

12 Stipo was lying dead in the corridor.

13 Q. Can you describe what condition you saw his body in.

14 A. His body was lying on its back, and on his forehead there was a

15 hole above his eye. When I saw that, for the first time in my life to

16 see a dead man killed in that way.

17 Q. After you saw Stipo, did you see anything else or anybody else in

18 that house?

19 A. Yes. I passed by Stipo. The door was open. And through the

20 door I saw Tihomir Pavlovic sitting on the sofa.

21 Q. Was he alive or dead?

22 A. No, he was dead. His hands were behind his back.

23 Q. Can you describe what you saw. You said you saw him sitting.

24 How was he sitting? Did you notice any injuries or anything like that?

25 Tell us what you saw.

Page 2074












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2075

1 A. I didn't see any blood on him, but I did see some holes in his

2 clothing. And I really was out of my mind. I couldn't take note of all

3 the details then.

4 Q. Did you see anybody else in that house?

5 A. Yes, I did. On the floor, Franjo Pavlovic was lying. He was

6 lying on his stomach. And there was a pot and his head was in the pot,

7 and there was a soup ladle in the pot next to his head.

8 Q. Apart from the soup ladle, was there anything else in the pot?

9 A. No, just blood and the ladle, and he was lying on his stomach. I

10 didn't see how this was done or anything.

11 Q. Okay. Did you see anyone else apart from Stipo, Franjo, and

12 Tihomir in that house?

13 A. Yes. Next to Franjo was Vlado Pavlovic.

14 Q. And can you describe his physical condition as you saw him.

15 A. He was lying on his -- on the side with his legs up. He knees

16 were almost touching his head.

17 Q. What else, if anything, did you notice about him? Did you notice

18 any injuries?

19 A. No, I didn't notice any injuries because I was so deeply shocked

20 that I couldn't really look.

21 Q. And was he alive or dead?

22 A. Dead. Dead. He was dead.

23 Q. Did you go to any other house after that?

24 A. Yes. I saw that Ante Petrovic was missing, and I went looking

25 for him. And when I reached my uncle's house, I found him dead too.

Page 2076

1 Q. Whose house was it -- what's the name of the uncle?

2 A. It was my uncle's house, in which Ante was lying dead.

3 Q. What's your uncle's name?

4 A. Ivo Pavlovic.

5 Q. Can you describe the condition of Ante Petrovic when you saw him

6 that morning, the physical condition.

7 A. Ante Petrovic was lying. In his mouth, there was grass or

8 something with thorns, and the television was right next to his head.

9 Q. Where was the television exactly in relation to his head?

10 A. Right next to his head. Right next to it.

11 Q. Did you notice if he had any injuries?

12 A. No, I didn't. All I could see was blood around him. I felt bad.

13 Q. Do you know if Tihomir and Vlado carried or bore arms, that is,

14 weapons?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What do you mean by that?

17 A. No, they didn't carry arms. They were innocent witnesses. They

18 hadn't joined any armed forces.

19 Q. Did you say they were innocent witnesses or something else?

20 A. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, Jehovah's Witnesses.

21 Q. Mr. Petrovic - and that is with your leave, Mr. President, if I

22 may - Mr. Petrovic, we have some photographs of the bodies of these

23 persons. Do you think you'd be in a condition to look at them and

24 identify the persons?

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, the Prosecution is

Page 2077

1 asking you whether, given your health, you'd be able to examine

2 photographs that might bring back very unpleasant memories, shocking

3 memories. If you don't want to have a look at these photographs, tell

4 us. We will understand that your health is such that you don't want to

5 have a look at them.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If possible, I would rather not

7 have a look at them.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution

9 won't show the photographs then.


11 Q. You said you saw the Muslim army approaching the village. Why do

12 you say or why do you describe those who approached the village as the

13 Muslim army?

14 A. Well, they were Muslims. That was their army.

15 Q. Can you say how they were dressed, if you saw them with any

16 uniform or any particular insignia?

17 A. Well, some of them were wearing white robes; others were in

18 camouflage uniform. But given the state I was in, the stress I was

19 under, and given that there was shooting, well, it wasn't possible for me

20 to take everything in.

21 MR. STAMP: If I may just consult. One moment.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Nothing

24 further.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The examination-in-chief has

Page 2078

1 been concluded. Does the Defence have any questions for the witness?

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given the

4 witness's condition and the facts that he has testified about,

5 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team doesn't have any questions for this

6 witness.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

9 questions for this witness either.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Witness, this concludes your examination. You have answered the

12 questions put to you by the Prosecution. They have asked you a number of

13 questions. And the Prosecution believes that it isn't necessary to ask

14 you any other questions. The Defence hasn't deemed it necessary to ask

15 you any questions, and the Trial Chamber doesn't think that it is

16 necessary to ask you additional questions.

17 We would like to thank you for having come to testify here in The

18 Hague and for having contributed to determining the truth. The usher

19 will now escort you out of the courtroom, and we wish you a good trip

20 home. And we would like to point out that the Victims and Witnesses Unit

21 will take care of you and organise your trip home. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since we have examined both

25 witnesses, there is nothing remaining on our schedule. What is the

Page 2079

1 situation for tomorrow, Mr. Withopf?

2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution will

3 call the witness which is scheduled appearing for tomorrow on our

4 confidential witness sheet. We anticipate the examination-in-chief

5 lasting for one and a half, maybe up to two hours, so we should be easily

6 in a position, including cross-examination and re-examination, to

7 conclude and to finish this witness within the time frame given for

8 tomorrow.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have one witness for

10 Wednesday and we have another witness scheduled for Thursday, and on

11 Friday two other witnesses will be appearing. I think that the schedule

12 will be respected, and the witnesses that have been scheduled will

13 appear. Is that correct?

14 MR. WITHOPF: Completely correct, Mr. President. We have one

15 witness for tomorrow, we will have one witness for Thursday, who is

16 likely to continue on Friday, and then we will have a second witness for

17 Friday.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 Next week, as you know, Monday is a holiday. There won't be a

20 hearing. We have one witness for Tuesday, the 3rd of February; another

21 witness who is scheduled, for now, on Thursday, the 5th of February; and

22 I think there will be witnesses -- on the 6th of February, there is no

23 hearing. I think on the 4th of February -- do we have any witnesses for

24 the 4th of February? Because according to the document that I have in

25 front of me, dated the 22nd of January, there is a gap for the 4th of

Page 2080

1 February.

2 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, we today filed

3 confidentially and we provided Defence with a copy of this information

4 prior to the today's court session. We will have for sure five witnesses

5 for next week, most likely even six witnesses for next week. We will

6 have two witnesses on next Tuesday; we will have additional two ones for

7 Wednesday; for sure we will have one for Friday and most likely a second

8 for Thursday -- my apologies -- and certainly -- and most likely a second

9 one for Thursday as well. The filing will detail which witnesses these

10 are.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the following weeks and

12 months, the hearing will be continuous because we will have hearings

13 until April without an interruption. As you know, there's the Friday

14 before Easter which will be a holiday; Easter Monday is also a holiday.

15 And if I have understood this correctly, according to the Defence they

16 would like to have a few days -- a few additional days for various

17 reasons, either to return to the territory of the former Yugoslavia to

18 meet other people. And they have requested an interruption of the

19 hearing because in January, February, March, and April the Trial Chamber

20 will be sitting continuous. So I don't see that having a pause in April

21 is a problem. But it would be best to have this break after Easter

22 Monday, after the week that starts on Monday, the 12th and up to Friday,

23 the 16th. So from Monday we will resume with the hearings.

24 I wanted to point this out to the Prosecution so that the

25 Prosecution could draft a schedule for his witnesses for the following

Page 2081

1 week, for the week following the Easter break. This is the request made

2 by the Defence. They want to have a break.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

4 thank you, because that was the Defence's request and suggestion because

5 having worked continually for three weeks -- for three months, it is the

6 Defence's duty to examine how further investigations will be conducted,

7 what the procedure will be in order to meet possible experts and to carry

8 out other tasks that will facilitate the conduct of these proceedings

9 without having interruptions. We would like to thank you. We request --

10 our request was made to have a break from the 5th and then stop after

11 Easter or to start with the Easter holidays and then to have a break for

12 a week, but we accept the suggestion you have made today.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. We

14 accept your decision.

15 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, we have no observations to make in

16 that respect. We appreciate the reasons why Defence asked for such a

17 short break. There's only one observation I wish to make for the record,

18 and this is the following observation: We don't wish to count additional

19 days against the time period that was given to us to present the

20 Prosecution's case. Therefore, I would request the Trial Chamber to

21 grant us additional four days at the very end of the current deadline.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Given the way our work has been

23 proceeding and given the witnesses that have been heard, is it

24 Prosecution in the position to tell us, just as an indication, when it

25 thinks they might finish -- conclude the presentation of their case?

Page 2082

1 Will it be in mid-June, at the end of June? Is there an estimate, or are

2 you not in a position to provide us with an estimate now?

3 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, we are actually in a

4 position to provide you with an estimate. Based on the decision of the

5 Trial Chamber in the course of the Pre-Trial Conference that we have to

6 present our case within a six-month time period, we always worked with

7 the aim to comply with this requirement. And as it stands now, we are

8 very, very likely to actually meet the deadline.

9 As it stands now, we will have about 40 to 45 additional

10 so-called crime-base witnesses with the current pace of about 6 to 8 such

11 crime-base witnesses in a week. We anticipate finishing the crime-base

12 evidence by end of March.

13 We will then continue with so-called international witnesses. Of

14 course, such international witnesses need a bit more time. We anticipate

15 to complete their testimonies by some point in mid to end of May. We

16 have a few former judges and prosecutors which will be called to testify

17 for the Prosecution. The military expert will testify probably mid-May.

18 We anticipate to have completed the presentation of the

19 Prosecution's case by beginning of June. However, since the deadline has

20 been given to us, I wish to use the opportunity to again respectfully

21 request that the four additional days don't count towards the time frame

22 given to us.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's not a problem. If

24 you respect the schedule and in light of what you have just said, you

25 should conclude the presentation of your case with the hearing of your

Page 2083

1 witnesses by the end of May, beginning of June. So that should be

2 possible, since, as you are well aware, at the end of this stage the

3 Defence can make an application for an acquittal, and then there are

4 deadlines that have to be respected, there are deadlines to respond to

5 such a motion, deadlines for a decision to be rendered. So at the

6 beginning of June would be an appropriate time, a perfect time, and that

7 would give the Trial Chamber time to render any necessary decisions

8 before August, since as you know there is a holiday in August and there

9 will be a break in August. And hearings will only resume in September,

10 at the beginning of September.

11 But since we haven't had any -- since the schedule has been

12 respected so far, we can inform the -- we take note of the fact that at

13 the beginning of June the Prosecution will have concluded its case.

14 With regard to the schedule, is there anything that the Defence

15 would like to say?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Prosecution has

17 presented its schedule for presenting its case to the Trial Chamber, and

18 as we have already said, we will try to ensure that the Prosecution's

19 evidence is presented within the specified time and we shall strive not

20 to use up more time than the Prosecution when conducting our

21 cross-examinations.

22 We have no objections to raise, and we shall continue to strive

23 to ensure that the proceedings are expeditious.

24 With regard to examining the witnesses that the Prosecution has

25 just mentioned - and this concerns the military expert and international

Page 2084

1 witnesses - you are surely awaiting for a decision, as we are, which will

2 enable the Defence to have access to the archives of the European

3 monitors. According to the latest information -- my colleague, Stephane

4 Bourgon, could provide the Trial Chamber with the latest information.

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. On

6 behalf of the two Defence team, I would like to inform the Trial Chamber

7 about the most recent developments with regard to this matter. We have

8 managed to contact the representatives of the European Union today,

9 Mr. Mueller, who is responsible for the matter. He informed me that a

10 draft response has been prepared for the attention of the Trial Chamber

11 and signed by the secretary, Mr. Solana. This letter follows a series of

12 consultations between the European Union and the member states of the

13 European Union Monitoring Mission, according to the confidential

14 procedure, which will be concluded today. So this draft letter could be

15 forwarded to the Trial Chamber tomorrow with the response that was

16 provided to us a little in advance.

17 According to what has been drafted up today, the European Union

18 will accept to give us access to the documents which were identified in

19 the annex of our request of December and in accordance with the procedure

20 suggested by the Chamber. All the documents will -- in a room in

21 Sarajevo. We'll have access to this room in order to consult all the

22 documents and to select the ones that we think are relevant. These

23 documents will then be examined by representatives of the Monitoring

24 Mission in order to determine whether they can be provided to us in their

25 entirety or if it is necessary to redact parts of the document after the

Page 2085

1 member states have commented on this. So this procedure could take place

2 in the two upcoming weeks, and the Defence would then be in a position to

3 have all the documents required for the presentation of the case. This

4 should take place in two weeks' time.

5 As you have suggested, Mr. President, and as you have understood

6 on the basis of what my colleague has said, it won't be necessary to

7 interrupt the proceedings in order to go and examine these documents. We

8 will follow your suggestions and try and go and examine those documents

9 without having an interruption in the proceedings. Thank you,

10 Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for the good news

12 that you have just informed us of, because we were not at all aware of

13 how this matter was advancing.

14 I'd like to turn to the other Defence team. With regard to the

15 schedule, does the other Defence team have any comments to make?

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

17 have no objections to raise.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 So we have been able to take stock of the situation, given the

20 time at our disposal. There are a few motions that are still pending,

21 but the decisions will be rendered very rapidly and before the end of the

22 week. That will enable us to advance with the proceedings. We will

23 render a number of decisions which are being prepared. You'll be

24 informed of them very rapidly.

25 It's now 6.40. We will now adjourn, as we have no other

Page 2086

1 witnesses, and we will resume tomorrow at 2.15, as scheduled. Thank you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.42 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

4 January, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.