1 Tuesday, 16 March 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, would you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 May we have the appearances, please, the Prosecution first.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
12 Honours. Good morning Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,
13 Ekkehard Withopf, and Ruth Karper, the case manager.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.
15 And I'm turning towards the Defence counsel, please.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
17 Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of General Hadzihasanovic,
18 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna
19 Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And the other
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
23 For the Defence of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
24 Mr. Mulalic, the legal assistant.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 The Chamber would like to welcome all those present in the
2 courtroom, the representatives of the Prosecution and of the Defence and
3 the accused, and all the other personnel in the courtroom, including
4 those helping us out outside and who are technically helping us to hold
5 these proceedings.
6 The Chamber would like to express its condolences to Mr. Kubura,
7 who had a death in the family, and that is why General Kubura was
8 authorised to attend his mother's funeral and that is why -- but we see
9 him back here today. So we should like to express our condolences to
10 General Kubura.
11 Today we're going to continue with the video-conference witnesses
12 and their testimony. We have two witnesses lined up for today. Let us
13 just check to see whether we are online and can we hear the first
15 Mr. Withopf, could you tell us who the first witness that you
16 will be calling is, or Mr. Mundis.
17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
18 Honours, counsel. The first witness this morning is Jozo Markovic.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber takes
20 note of this.
21 And may we have the witness ushered in, please, by the registrar.
22 And Madam Registrar, please would you do that.
23 [Witness testified via videolink]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. Can you
25 hear me? Can you hear what I'm saying translated into your own language?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I wasn't able to hear the
4 Can you give us your first and last name, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jozo Markovic.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your date of birth?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of January, 1930.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your profession or what
9 job do you do at present?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a farmer.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're a farmer. That's what I
13 Now, in 1993, what were you doing?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always did the same kind of work.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Have
16 you already testified before a tribunal, in court, or is this the first
17 time that you're testifying?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I came here before, but I
19 have never testified.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're now going to take the
21 solemn declaration, and you will be reading from the card that the lady
22 next to you is going to show you. Would you please read out what it says
23 on the card in your own language.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated,
3 WITNESS: JOZO MARKOVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can see you on the screen,
7 and you should be able to see us on the screen in front of you.
8 Before we commence - and you'll be answering questions put to you
9 by the Prosecution - I would like to give you some information to allow
10 you to understand fully how these proceedings work.
11 You will first be answering questions put to you by the
12 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. Try and answer the
13 questions to the best of your ability, in complete form and precise form.
14 If you don't know the answer, please say so.
15 After that set of questions, other people will be asking you
16 questions as well; that is to say, the lawyers of the accused. They will
17 be asking you questions as well. So please do your best to answer as
18 fully as possible.
19 The Judges that you see before you on your screen can also ask
20 you questions if they wish to do so.
21 As you have just taken the solemn declaration, that entails
22 consequences - that is to say, it is incumbent upon you to tell the
23 truth. Should you give false testimony or lie, you will be subjecting
24 yourself to consequences for perjury. And if you commit this violation,
25 then a prison sentence of up to seven years can be proclaimed. The
1 witness -- should the witness answer and think that by answering the
2 question he will incriminate himself, then he has the right to remain
3 silent. However, if the Judges ask you to answer, then you will not be
4 subject to any consequences.
5 Generally speaking, that is how the proceedings will be
6 conducted, with you as the witness and testifying in that capacity. So
7 without further ado, I'm going to give the floor to the representative
8 of the Prosecution, who's going to start off by asking you some
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
12 Q. Mr. Markovic, my name is Daryl Mundis. I'm one of the
13 Prosecutors in this case. I'm going to ask you some questions now. And
14 if you don't understand my question or if you can't hear the question,
15 please say so and I'll repeat the question.
16 Sir, in 1993, where were you living?
17 A. In the village of Susanj, Zenica municipality.
18 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what occurred in Susanj in
19 June 1993.
20 A. What happened was there was an attack on the 8th of June, during
21 the morning, early in the morning. But I wasn't in the village at that
22 time. I was absent, because the week before I went to the point where
23 they were holding Muslims and somebody from Zenica, a man whom I knew,
24 came and I went over there, and the 7th Muslim changed and they put me in
25 prison, and I spent the night in prison. They beat me up, and the next
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 day at around 10.00 in the evening they released me. So then I went to
2 Zenica. They didn't let me go home, so I went to my sister's place in
3 Zenica. And I was in Zenica for five or six days. I don't know exactly
4 how long. And then I returned home.
5 Q. Mr. Markovic, you just mentioned that you spent the night in
6 prison. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber where you spent the night.
7 A. I belonged to the local community of Pojske. And it was in the
8 school in that local community. And they turned that local community
9 into a prison, and that night that I spent there - I spent the night
10 there - there were perhaps 100 of us. And they released all the others
11 but they just kept me. There were women. There were children. Any of
12 the Croats that happened to pass by that way, they were all put in the
13 prison in Pojske.
14 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you recall after this period when you were in
15 Zenica the date that you returned to Susanj?
16 A. Well, I said a moment ago. I spent some six or seven days there.
17 I don't know exactly. Nobody was allowed to go, and I wasn't either,
18 until I was released and allowed to go home.
19 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you saw when you
20 returned to the village of Susanj in mid-June 1993.
21 A. Well, the village had already been looted. Not all of it, but
22 most of it. There was a lot of looting, and things were being damaged.
23 I saw a group of boys who might have been 15 or 16 years old, and they
24 had some long sticks in their hands and were busy breaking windows on the
25 houses where the windows were still intact and hadn't been shattered.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that there is a great
2 deal of interference. Thank you.
3 MR. MUNDIS:
4 Q. Other than these 15- or 16-year-old boys, did you see anyone else
5 involved in looting in the village?
6 A. Yes, I did. The village was full of people looting. I saw the
7 police helping them too, helping them take property out of houses.
8 Q. Mr. Markovic, when you say "property," can you tell the Trial
9 Chamber what type of property you're referring to.
10 A. Well, household goods and appliances, washing machines, fridges,
11 household appliances. That's what I can say, the regular type of stuff
12 that you could take out.
13 Q. Mr. Markovic, did you personally witness any of these household
14 goods being removed from houses?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what you personally
17 witnessed, including the person or persons who was removing the property.
18 A. Well, mostly they were people I didn't know; although, some of
19 them I did, but I would prefer not to mention their names, because
20 they're neighbours, so it's not a good thing. But I did see some
21 neighbours I knew, although mostly people came from other villages and I
22 didn't know them.
23 Q. Mr. Markovic, at the time you returned to your village, were you
24 living or staying in your own house?
25 A. Yes. When I returned - I forgot to say that a moment ago - I
1 found my house and my son's house full of people. So all those people
2 who didn't escape to Vitez were made to go to my village. My brother
3 said, "I'm not going to flee," and other people went too. And people
4 went to Ovnak, and that is the border between the municipalities of
5 Zenica and Travnik.
6 Q. Mr. Markovic, you told us about people breaking windows. Did you
7 observe any other type of damage being done to houses or other buildings?
8 A. Yes. People were taking goods out. And if they couldn't take
9 them out, they would demolish them. They would take out the spare parts
10 from washing machines, for example. Or, for example, my car remained
11 behind, but they took the motor, the engine. So they would destroy and
12 break everything that was in the houses. They would take the taps, for
13 example. The things they could, they took; the others, they destroyed.
14 Q. Mr. Markovic, to your knowledge, was any property removed from
15 your house?
16 A. Yes. Later on. But I fled from my house, because I came during
17 the day on one occasion and they beat me up. And then another time they
18 put masks on their faces, like socks over their heads, and that's when I
19 flew from my house. But my wife and my brother's wife stayed on in the
20 house. I was in Zenica myself, but I would go home during the day. And
21 one evening they turned up - the army, the soldiers - and they bashed in
22 the door, smashed the windows, and my wife was injured and her face was
23 all bloody and she even had to have an operation later on. She was
24 injured from the glass.
25 Then they looted my whole house. It's a little funny, but a
1 barrel full of brandy was taken away. I never had much, but they took my
2 brandy and my radio, and I had a lot of food. They took all that away.
3 And they left the house almost empty. They didn't take the furniture.
4 They just took clothing and this radio and the food we had.
5 Q. Mr. Markovic, do you recall approximately when this was, when the
6 soldiers bashed in the door and smashed the windows?
7 A. It's difficult to say. They just smashed in the door. They
8 didn't smash the windows on that occasion. That time they just bashed in
9 the door and forced their way in. And my wife and my brother's wife
10 looked at them, and they locked themselves up in a room, but they broke
11 through and took the goods.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Markovic.
13 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
15 I give the floor now to the Defence counsel for their
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Markovic. Can you hear me?
20 A. I can.
21 Q. I am Edina Residovic, and I am representing General Enver
22 Hadzihasanovic. I would like to ask you kindly to answer a few questions
23 for me.
24 You told my learned friend from the OTP that you were born and
25 that you lived in the village of Susanj; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The village of Susanj belongs to the municipality of Zenica and
3 is situated north from the main road running from Zenica towards Travnik;
4 is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Your village was mostly inhabited by Croats; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Not far from your village of Susanj there are other Croat
9 villages, such as Ovnak, Novo Selo, Grahovcici, and Cukle; is that right?
10 A. Yes. But they don't belong to Zenica. They belong to Travnik.
11 Q. Yes. They are very close to your village, but they belong to
12 another municipality, the municipality of Travnik; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You said that on the 8th of June a conflict broke out in your
15 village as well. Is it true that before the 8th of June, 1993 there were
16 no conflicts in your village and the surroundings between the army and
17 the HVO? Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. However, there were some problems nevertheless because you heard
20 that in other parts, not far from your village, there had been clashes
21 between the BH army and the Croatian Defence Council, so that the
22 population of the village did feel fear; is that right?
23 A. That was closer to Travnik, I think.
24 Q. You also knew that along the road going from Zenica towards
25 Travnik there were checkpoints which did not allow freedom of movement,
1 is that right, free passage?
2 A. Yes. For a while they did allow movement, but when this attack
3 came on Susanj and the other villages, then no one was allowed to pass.
4 Q. Is it true that the HVO had a checkpoint at Ovnak and that it
5 checked everyone moving from Zenica towards Travnik at that checkpoint?
6 A. There was a checkpoint. Now, whether they searched people, I
7 don't know. I wasn't interested, nor was I there. But there was a
8 checkpoint, yes.
9 Q. In your village, the able-bodied men belonged to the Frankopan
10 HVO Brigade; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This brigade had its headquarters in Guca Gora and a company in
13 Grahovcici; is that right?
14 A. I'm not sure about these things. I know about Grahovcici. There
15 was some sort of a unit. But about Guca Gora, I don't know.
16 Q. Your sons, Fabijan and Zoran, were members of the HVO; is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You personally were not a member of the HVO, but you were issued
20 a Kalashnikov automatic rifle; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The tension in the village was intensified after the Jure
23 Francetic Brigade was disarmed in Zenica and after -- the area
24 Ovnak-Grahovcici -- many people had come, both inhabitants and the
25 members of the Jure Francetic Brigade from Zenica had come there; is that
2 A. I don't know whether there were soldiers. There were refugees
3 who were expelled from there. About the other things, I don't know. I
4 wasn't following these things.
5 Q. After April, many people in your village became scared that there
6 would be fighting in your village too, so that most of the villagers
7 withdrew to Grahovcici where this HVO company was based; is that right?
8 A. Yes, some did flee. Whether people stayed behind, I don't know.
9 Q. However, you and your immediate family remained in the village of
10 Susanj; is that right?
11 A. Yes. Just myself and my wife.
12 Q. You know that the local authorities from Zenica, together with
13 the European monitors and the priests from your parish in Zenica, talked
14 to the people, the refugees, trying to persuade them to go back to Zenica
15 where their safety would be guaranteed. Do you know that?
16 A. I don't know that. As far as the church is concerned, we
17 belonged to Brajkovici.
18 Q. Your villagers from Susanj, your neighbours who had gone towards
19 Brajkovici, or at least a part of them, at the end of April returned to
20 the village again; is that right?
21 A. I don't know that they returned. I don't know that.
22 Q. On the 8th of June, you said that early in the morning you heard
23 shooting in the distance; is that right?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I made a mistake. I'll rephrase
2 On the 8th of June itself, you were not in the village of Susanj.
3 You were in Zenica. Is that right?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Though you wanted to go back, but in the days immediately
6 following the 8th of June you were not allowed to do that because they
7 told you that it was dangerous in view of the fighting, that it was
8 dangerous for you to go to Susanj alone; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you did return to Susanj several days after the fighting
11 ceased, in your house you found your wife and some other villagers, quite
12 a number of them; is that right?
13 A. Just the women. There were a few older men. All the women had
14 been shepherded into my house and my son's house, because I'm at the
15 bottom of the village. My house is almost the first you reach going from
16 Zenica. It is at the end of the village, but it belongs to Susanj.
17 Q. Is it true, Mr. Markovic, that your wife and the other villagers
18 who were in your house told you that the soldiers had put them up into
19 your house and your son's house because it was removed and sheltered from
20 the fighting going on in the village? Is that right?
21 A. There were few Croats left. They had all fled. When the
22 fighting had stopped, they rounded them up from the houses and put them
23 in these houses. My brother remained and some other men. They were all
24 executed, those who stayed behind in the village. No one dared stay. I
25 plucked up courage and returned.
1 Q. You just heard that during those combat activities and after that
2 several locals of your village had been killed. But you personally were
3 not a witness of those killings, were you?
4 A. I wasn't a witness, but I was a witness of the bodies brought to
5 the morgue by the civil defence, and I went there with my two nephews.
6 We put 19 men into coffins in the morgue. That, I'm a witness of. I
7 know. I heard from others.
8 Q. Actually, you were just a witness of the identification of the
9 bodies that were already in the morgue in Zenica; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In answer to a question from my learned friend, you already said
12 that when you returned your house was not damaged; is that right?
13 A. Yes. But it was looted. Soldiers forced their way in, broke
14 down the door. They hit my wife with glass on the head. My wife and my
15 brother's wife wouldn't let them in. These were soldiers. They were
16 drunk. They were bullies. But they were soldiers.
17 Q. Yes. But the event you are now describing occurred much later
18 and not when you came back to Susanj after the conflict; is that right?
19 This event happened after the other villagers had left your house and
20 your son's house; is that right?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. You don't know the exact date when that happened, but this did
23 not happen immediately after the combat activities; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. When you returned several days after the battle, your wife told
1 you that shells had fallen on the village, that there was a lot of
2 fighting, and that two houses in the village had been destroyed and burnt
3 by shelling; is that right?
4 A. The soldiers set fire to them, not the shells. Tomo Markovic's
5 house is considered to have been burnt by shelling. The others were set
6 on fire by soldiers.
7 Q. When you came to your house, a delegation from Zenica came to
8 visit you, and among them was the vice-president of the executive board
9 of the municipal assembly, representatives of the civilian police, and a
10 lawyer; is that right?
11 A. I don't remember that there was a lawyer. Various people came to
12 see me, but I can't name any of them.
13 Q. So delegations came to see whether you were safe and to suggest
14 to the people to move to Zenica because they could not fully guarantee
15 your safety from various gangs that were going around.
16 A. Is that what you're saying, that we were advised to go to Zenica?
17 Q. The villagers in your house were advised to go to Zenica.
18 Because of various gangs roaming the village at night, they couldn't
19 protect you. Is that right?
20 A. No. They told the police to take care of me. And they were
21 forced to go to Zenica, and there was fear. And people were fleeing.
22 When the dead people were buried, a bus took us from Zenica to the
23 cemetery and we buried the dead. And they were forced into the bus and
24 they were taken to Zenica and it was safer there. Yes.
25 Q. But people wanted to go to Zenica, and they entered the buses one
1 on top of another because they were afraid.
2 A. They were scared. They were fleeing.
3 Q. But the civilian authorities of Zenica municipality assigned a
4 civilian police platoon to protect yourself and the village, but the area
5 was vast and this police unit could not prevent the looting that was
6 going on; is that right?
7 A. It couldn't. How could they prevent it when they took part in
8 the looting? The police did. I saw myself. They masked their faces
9 once. And I fled. And a policeman who was assigned to protect me, and
10 my wife said to him, "Can't you see what they're doing?" And he said,
11 "Don't be afraid. They won't hurt you." Karan Sajo, Alija's son, he was
12 a policeman and he had a mask on his face.
13 Q. This was a civilian police platoon called Manevar; is that right?
14 A. They were known as the reserve police. They were attached to the
15 regular police.
16 Q. Very well. You said that the people that were looting were
17 mostly unknown to you, villagers of other villages who came at night and
18 sometimes during the day as well.
19 A. During the daytime. They did it openly. The police helped them
20 to load the stuff and to take it away. There was a tractor that had
21 broken down. And I asked, "Whose is it?" "It's that is policeman's,"
22 they said. I know exactly whose it was. That was how the police
23 protected us.
24 Q. Refugees, Muslim families that had fled from other parts of
25 Bosnia they had been expelled from, had moved into some houses; is that
2 A. Yes. It was stated that refugees should go to Susanj. It was
3 written on a window in Zenica. There was a poster stuck on a window
4 saying that refugees could go to Susanj because there were empty houses
6 Q. Mr. Markovic, is it true that during the conflict and after it
7 you were not in Susanj for several days and you were not a witness of the
8 way in which some houses were set on fire or of the way in which they
9 were looted during that period?
10 A. When I came back, I saw it. But when I wasn't there, I couldn't
11 see it. When I came back, people were stuck on the road because they
12 were carrying away so much stuff.
13 Q. Yes. But I understand that. But during the attack and for
14 several days after the attack you were not a witness and you don't know
15 exactly how the houses were damaged, burnt, or looted during that period
16 when you were not there. When you were not there, you couldn't know what
17 was going on. Is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Have you ever made statements for certain individuals about which
20 houses were damaged or looted in your village? Did you give a statement
21 to anyone who asked you for this information?
22 A. No. I don't recall that.
23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Markovic.
24 You are now back in your house, aren't you?
25 A. I am.
1 Q. And your relations with your neighbours are good.
2 A. Up to a point, because quite recently I was assaulted by a
3 neighbour and the judge said he could be sent to prison from six months
4 to one year. And the lawyer said between one month and six months -- no,
5 no, I'm sorry. The lawyer said between six months to two years, yet he
6 was sentenced to one month. That is how free I am.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Markovic, for answering my questions.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 I'm turning to the other Defence counsel. Would anybody else
10 like to take the floor?
11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
12 just have one or two questions to clarify certain points with
13 Mr. Markovic.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Markovic, on behalf of Mr. Kubura's Defence,
16 I'm going to ask you just two questions.
17 A. Could you speak up, please.
18 Q. On behalf of Mr. Kubura's Defence, I'm going to ask you just two
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. During the day today you confirmed several times that during the
22 time the conflicts were taking place in the region of Susanj you were
23 absent. Or, rather, you were in Zenica yourself. That's the 8th of
24 June, 1993, the date I am referring to. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. So you returned to Zenica, as you told us today -- or rather, to
2 Susanj, I'm sorry, seven days later; is that right?
3 A. Thereabouts. I couldn't give you an exact date. Six, seven,
4 eight days perhaps. I didn't keep count.
5 Q. But can you confirm that you returned to Susanj around the 15th
6 of June, 1993?
7 A. Well, yes, I can.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Mr. Mundis, any additional questions?
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no
13 questions in redirect examination for the witness.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Mr. Markovic, that completes your testimony. You have answered
16 the questions put to you by the Prosecution and those put to you by the
17 Defence teams. Thank you for your contribution to ascertaining the
19 I should like to ask the people in the room with you to escort
20 you out of the room, and we should like to thank you once again for your
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
23 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me turn to the Prosecution
25 to ask them if they have another witness for us, lined up.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, there should be an additional witness
2 standing by in Sarajevo, Mr. Ivo Vuleta.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We're going to wait
4 for Madam Registrar to come back into the hall and introduce the second
6 THE REGISTRAR: [via videolink] I have the second witness here,
7 Your Honour. Your Honour?
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Registrar,
9 since you've just told us that you have the second witness with you,
10 would you bring him in and introduce him, please.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. There seems to be a
14 problem with getting the witness into the testifying hall, so we're going
15 to take our usual break now, although it's just a few minutes before
16 10.00. They need 15 minutes to put it right. But we'll reconvene at
18 --- Recess taken at 9.57 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.32 a.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Microphone not activated]
21 [Interpretation] I would just like to check on the screen to see
22 that the witness is there. He is.
23 [Witness testified via videolink]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you hear what I'm saying,
25 sir, translated into your own language?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Yes, I can.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you give me your first
3 and last name, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivo Vuleta.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please approach the
7 microphone. The interpreters cannot hear.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me repeat. What is your
9 date of birth?
10 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We haven't heard the witness's
13 Can you hear what I'm saying, Witness?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I was asking you
16 your date of birth and place of birth.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Susanj, Zenica municipality, the
18 12th of May, 1945.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What is your
20 profession or present activity?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a pensioner.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your
23 profession or activity at the time?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Retired.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you ever testified before
1 a tribunal or court, or is this the first time in your life that you're
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified in Zenica three times.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You are now going
5 to take the solemn declaration. In order to do so, you will read out the
6 text on the piece of paper that the lady has shown you. Would you please
7 go ahead and read what it says.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ivo Vuleta. I solemnly declare
9 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
11 WITNESS: IVO VULETA
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that it is very difficult
14 to follow the witness. There is a great deal of interference.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
16 representative of the Prosecution, let me tell you about the proceedings.
17 You are going to answer questions that the representatives of the Office
18 of the Prosecutor are going to ask you. Having done that, having
19 completed the examination-in-chief, the Defence counsels for the accused
20 will also be asking you questions.
21 The Judges, that you should be able to see on the screen in front
22 of you, if they deem necessary, can also ask you questions at any time.
23 Once you have heard the questions, take your time to answer them
24 and try to give us complete and precise answers to the questions you have
25 been asked. If you don't understand the question, then please ask the
1 person putting it to restate the question.
2 As you have taken the solemn declaration to speak the truth, and
3 as you have already told us that this isn't the first time you are
4 testifying, you though that the solemn declaration is binding and by the
5 same token it means that you will have to tell the truth and not give
6 false testimony. If you lie or commit perjury and give false testimony,
7 you must be aware of the fact that sanctions can be invoked and the
8 prison sentence term can go up to seven years or you will be reprimanded.
9 If you give -- if you think that you might incriminate yourself
10 in answering questions put to you, then you can refuse to answer those
11 questions. If the witness refuses to answer, the Trial Chamber can
12 oblige them to do so, and in that case what the witness says cannot be
13 held against him.
14 I wanted to inform you comprehensively of your rights before you
15 begin your testimony in this hearing. And we're now going to have the
16 video conference and videolink. We can see you on the screen, although
17 you don't have us in front of you, the Judges or the two parties, the
18 Prosecution and the Defence counsel, and that is why we have organised
19 the videolink which enables us to see you and to hear your answers.
20 Without further ado, I'm going to give the floor to the
21 representative of the Prosecution, who will be asking you questions. And
22 you're going to see him appear on your screen.
23 Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.
24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Examined by Mr. Mundis:
1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vuleta. My name is Daryl Mundis. I'm the
2 Prosecutor or one of the Prosecutors in this case. I'm going to ask you
3 some questions. And if you can't hear me or either don't understand the
4 question, please inform me and I will restate the question for you.
5 Can you please tell the Trial Chamber where you were living in
6 June 1993.
7 A. Until the 8th of June, I was in my own house. After the 8th of
8 June, that is, as of the 9th of June, I was in Zenica, staying with my
9 brother for ten days. And then I moved to Mala Broda, and I stayed there
10 until the 25th of August, when I was exchanged - I don't know with whom -
11 and driven to Vitez.
12 Q. Mr. Vuleta, you told us until the 8th of June you were in your
13 own house. Where was your house up until 8 June 1993? In what town or
14 village was your house?
15 A. In Susanj, Zenica municipality.
16 Q. Can you please briefly tell the Trial Chamber what happened on
17 the 8th of June, 1993 in Susanj.
18 A. I have to start from an earlier date. On the 6th of June, in the
19 evening we were informed that we should withdraw towards the end of the
20 village near Ovnak, because we were told that in two days the problem
21 with Ovnak had to be resolved. And so I withdrew to the end of the
22 village in my car, and I went to say with my father-in-law. I spent the
23 night in the car.
24 On the 7th, when it dawned, the attack came from the direction of
25 Preocica on Grahovcici and the area of Strmac. This went on until about
1 9.00. I went back with my wife and mother to my own house. And when we
2 arrived, the electricity had been cut off, the water supply as well. We
3 spent the day there. Towards the evening on the 7th of June, the attack
4 came from the direction of Grcevine [phoen], which is a hill overlooking
5 Susanj. From the direction of Grcevine [phoen], Racinak [phoen] and
6 Usce. And the HVO responded, returned the fire. And then things calmed
8 And then in the morning, we withdrew again. I withdrew to spend
9 the night in the same spot. In the morning, I was awakened by shooting,
10 and I came to a spot called Balan [phoen]. And then I walked for about
11 300 metres to Ovnak. And there I saw with my own eyes that houses were
12 burning in Maljine, because you can see that area well, in Krpeljici, in
13 the direction of Guca Gora, and there were explosions and there were two
14 or three loud explosions that reached the end of our village. Again I
15 withdrew towards my own house, and around 10.00 - maybe a little earlier
16 than that, 9.30 or 10.00 - I had to leave the house with my wife and
17 mother. And not just me but many of us. And we reached a house that
18 provided a bit of shelter. It had a good basement. And from there we
19 moved to Stipe Markovic's house, Kazimir's son, and from there we headed
20 towards Ovnak under fire. We were under fire. I took my car. My wife
21 -- or rather, the wife of the late Zoran Markovic with two children, and
22 she was sick. And I reached Jozo Kafadar's house. And I somehow managed
23 to get out of the car. I went to the basement, and there I found some
24 other people and the late Kazimir Markovic and his wife were also there.
25 And then I told them, "You go on. I cannot go any further. I am an
1 invalid. I have both my legs amputated." And Franka said that she too
2 couldn't move any further, and the three of us stayed in the basement of
3 Jozo Kafadar. We were looking through the window in the cellar --
4 Q. Mr. Vuleta, sorry to interrupt. But let me ask a couple of
5 follow-on questions based on what you've said so far and then I'll tell
6 you continue. You told us a few moments ago that you were informed that
7 you should withdraw. You told us that right at the beginning. Who told
8 us to withdraw from your house?
9 A. Yes. Zoran Markovic and his brother Fabijan came to the village
10 and he had been warned by his neighbours, Muslims, or Bosniaks, as they
11 are now called.
12 Q. You also told us that the attack came from the direction of
13 Preocica. Do you know who -- what force or army was directing this
15 A. I don't know that, because I wasn't there, of course. I just
16 know that this is directly linked to the area where -- it could have been
17 the BH army or some other unit. I really don't know.
18 Q. Mr. Vuleta, in June of 1993, were you a civilian or were you a
20 A. Of course I was a civilian, because I lost both my legs on the
21 14th of February.
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. I missed the year.
23 MR. MUNDIS:
24 Q. Mr. Vuleta, could you please again tell us the year in which you
25 lost both of your legs.
1 A. The 14th of February, 1988, in the ironworks in Zenica.
2 Q. Mr. Vuleta, when I interrupted you, you told us that you and some
3 other people were in the basement of Jozo Kafadar. Can you please
4 continue with the story, picking up from that basement.
5 A. After that, when we looked through the window, I saw that they
6 were carrying a wounded man. I thought it was my son, you see, and I
7 panicked. And then others explained that it wasn't my son, that it was
8 Fabijan Laus from Cukle. However, after that, when they passed, I saw a
9 soldier going and shooting in the direction in which the able-bodied had
10 left the basement. Some 30 metres after him came another soldier, and
11 then again 30 metres behind him came a third soldier who had a black
12 beard, a cap on his head. And he turned around with his rifle and opened
13 fire on the windows of my sister's house. Now, why he did that, I don't
15 Q. Mr. Vuleta, do you know which army or unit the soldier or
16 soldiers that you saw shooting were with?
17 A. I couldn't see any insignia on them because they were about 30
18 metres away.
19 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber how long you remained in
20 the basement of Jozo Kafadar.
21 A. Not long. Maybe half an hour, not more. And then on the
22 pavement next to the house, one could hear steps. So I said to Kazimir
23 and Franka, "Here's a visitor arriving." That's what I said. However,
24 somebody I knew came through the door, Raif Rizvic. I didn't know that
25 his real name was Ragib. And above his head a bullet flew into the wall.
1 He bent his head. He fired a bullet. He cursed our Ustasha mothers. He
2 chased us out of the basement, and I said, "Raif, things were not like
3 this when we went to school together." He chased us out. He walked
4 along the pavement. As I carry crutches, I went along the grass and we
5 reached Jozo Kafadar's stable, when Franka fainted next to a trailer, and
6 she asked for assistance.
7 And the late Kazimir Markovic, knowing Raif as Raif, he said to
8 Raif, "Bring me some water. My wife will die." He just said, "You go
9 and get some water. You blew up -- you mined everything. Why should I
10 get killed? You get killed." And he headed towards the door to get
11 water. He followed him, and he said, "Give me your weapon." And Kazimir
12 said, "I don't have any." And then this one said, "But you did have
13 one." And Kazimir said, "I had a pistol. That was taken away from me a
14 long time ago." And he took out his wallet to show him the certificate.
15 They reached the smoke room of Jozo Kafadar. And then whether it was to
16 frighten him or not, he fired three bullets. And I never learnt from the
17 doctor how many bullets were fired into Kazimir himself. He fell to the
18 ground, and Raif Rizvic called me -- or rather, Franka cried out, "Raif,
19 why did you kill Kazimir?" And he said, "Keep quiet or I'll kill you
20 too." However, he asked me, "Is this your car?"
21 And before that, I said, "Don't make me go anywhere without a car
22 because I don't have any legs and I need the car." And then he asked me,
23 "Is this your car?" And I said, "Yes, it is."
24 He said, "I wounded him. Help me carry him to the car and drive
25 him to hospital." I asked him, "Why did you wound him?" And I apologise
1 for saying, and he just waved his hand and said, "Fuck it." But he did
2 help me carry him into the car. Kazimir was in the front seat and Franka
3 behind me, and I drove towards Zenica.
4 Q. Mr. Vuleta -- Mr. Vuleta, I apologise for interrupting. Do you
5 recall what Raif Rizvic was wearing at the time this event that you just
6 described took place?
7 A. He didn't have a cap on his head. It was raining. His hair was
8 all over the place. But he had a camouflage uniform on him, pants, and a
9 vest, whatever.
10 Q. Mr. Vuleta, did you in fact take Kazimir to the hospital on that
12 A. I said to him, "Raif, both parties are going to shoot at me."
13 And he said to me, "Let your people kill you. Mine will not." And he
14 raised his right arm, and he said, "Don't fire at this car." He pointed
15 his finger. Now, who he was speaking to, I don't know. I didn't see
17 I got to the road, and I drove off as quickly as I possibly
18 could. I never used to drive so quickly. One bullet hit the back window
19 next to Stanko Markovic's house, and another bullet hit the door near
20 Tomo Vuleta's house. And then I reached the wood, and from then on I had
21 no problems up until the bridge next to the store, where there's a school
22 and a shop there.
23 And when I reached the bridge, I suppose God wanted it that way,
24 I noticed mines on the bridge. They were big mines, about 30 or 40
25 centimetres in diameter. So I didn't dare drive on. I honked my horn.
1 And then a man peeped behind the corner of the shop, and I told him,
2 "Move away the mines. I have a wounded man in the car." So they did
3 come out and they removed the mines, and they ordered me to park in front
4 of the shop. They asked me, "Who is wounded?" And I said that this man
5 was wounded. "Is the woman wounded?" I said, "No." "Are you wounded?"
6 Because I had my crutches with me. I said no. "Well, why are you
7 carrying crutches?" I said that I was an invalid from such-and-such a
8 date, that I had lost my legs in the ironworks.
9 Then they ordered me and Franka to go to the prison in the school
10 in Pojske. I said that I was driving Kazimir because he was my
11 neighbour. He again ordered me to keep quiet and just to go to the
13 Q. Mr. Vuleta --
14 A. I didn't want to do that.
15 Q. Mr. Vuleta, when was the next time you returned to Susanj?
16 A. When we were put in prison, myself and Franka, we found Ivo Krdic
17 [phoen], Zvonko Srtic [phoen], and Jozo Markovic all from the village of
18 Konjevici in the prison. And we stayed there until nightfall.
19 Then priests were brought there from Brajkovici, Frano Krizanac,
20 Pero Karajica, two nuns whose names I don't know, and Ana Matosevic.
21 Then women were brought there, women and children and the other men --
22 there was a total of nine men in the prison and the others were women and
23 children. Then we spent the night there.
24 At about 9.00, somebody they called the chief came. He was
25 short, he had black hair, a well-trimmed beard. And he advised us not to
1 go to the village because they couldn't provide security. They told us
2 to go to the town, because it would be better there. However, we didn't
3 listen to what he was saying. We headed towards the village. But I said
4 to him, "Chief, as they call you, my car has been taken away from me and
5 a wounded man was taken off. I would like my car to be returned to me,
6 because it's my aid." And he ordered the policemen, who had insignia on
7 them, he ordered the policemen to give me back my car. But they --
8 somebody they called Isak, who was some sort of a commander at the
9 checkpoint, he promised he would give me back my car.
10 And I waited, and a soldier brought the car. And he told him to
11 give me the car, that I was an invalid, and that I needed it, and that
12 the chief had ordered it. However, this soldier refused the order. He
13 picked up a telephone device, a Motorola or whatever it was called. He
14 took it from this Isak, and he spoke to the chief and said, "Until I
15 finish my job, he cannot get his car." And he drove off in that car.
16 My wife was with me. I stayed behind the other people because
17 all the other people had left for Susanj, about 80 of them. And I stayed
18 there with my wife. And when I saw that nothing would come of it, the
19 guys who knew me and saw me there, Enver Spahic from Nebrovci [phoen], he
20 suggested that he could drive me home. He knew I had no legs, and he did
21 repairs on tractors, and we were good acquaintances. He picked me up in
22 his car and drove me to the village, to the crossroads in the middle of
23 the village. He was being cursed at because he had driven an Ustasha.
24 "You too should be killed," they said. I came out of the car, and I
25 said, "Enver, take care of yourself. Never mind me." And so I walked
1 about 100 metres from the crossroads to my house.
2 When I reached my house, my mother had already arrived there.
3 The door had been broken on both floors of the house. My radio set, my
4 video recorder had been taken away. All the things had been turned
5 upside down. And about 50 cloths had been taken away. I wondered why --
6 dishcloths. I kept quiet. I didn't dare leave the house.
7 And when I arrived, I saw a so-called moto-cultivator, a small
8 tractor in front of Mario Vuleta's house loading TVs, video recorders,
9 radios, washing machines, household appliances. The same happened in
10 front of Mario Vuleta's house. I didn't dare stay there any longer nor
11 look around much, but I did see this.
12 And then I reached my house, and I didn't dare come out again.
13 However, about an hour or something later, Andja Markovic arrived. She
14 is deceased now. Branko Vuleta, Stipo Vuleta, Ana Vuleta, Pavo
15 Markovic's wife whose name I cannot recall, and Ivo Markovic Marinko's
16 wife, and they said Drago Markovic -- and his real name was Dragutin, but
17 we called him Drago -- was killed in his own house, and nothing is known
18 about Ilija Vidosevic, Ante Vidosevic, Niko Vidosevic, Vlado Markovic,
19 Dragun Vidosevic. Kazimir was in hospital -- left in hospital. We
20 didn't know how he was. And then they said, "We have to go to Zenica.
21 We mustn't stay here any longer." And 47 of us started off, and again we
22 reached the checkpoint at Pojske, when Isak let me pass, knowing that he
23 hadn't given me my car, and my wife. I begged him to let my mother pass
24 as well. And he let us pass.
25 Q. Mr. Vuleta --
1 A. But I waited for three or four hours --
2 Q. Again, I apologise for interrupting, but I have a few follow-on
3 questions to what you've told us. Do you recall the approximate time and
4 the date that you arrived back in the village of Susanj when you
5 witnessed all of these things that you've just told us about?
6 A. It was the 9th of June, at about 10.00, half past 10.00. That's
7 when I got to my house, when we were released from prison that morning.
8 Q. And which year was that, sir?
9 A. 1993.
10 Q. When you first arrived in the village on that morning, did you
11 see any people moving about in the village?
12 A. There were people in uniform, and they had police insignia on
13 their sleeves, white armbands, and it said "Police, BiH army."
14 Q. What kind of uniforms were these people wearing?
15 A. Camouflage uniforms.
16 Q. And what were these people doing that you saw wearing these
17 camouflage uniforms with police insignia?
18 A. At the crossroads in the middle of the village, they were
19 standing there. They were standing there, and I said they threatened
20 Enver, who brought me, Enver Spahic, and said that they would kill him
21 for having driven me. I don't know what happened to Enver after that,
22 because I went to my own house. And these others in camouflage uniform,
23 who I said were loading up all the goods onto the tractor that I've
24 already described.
25 Q. Approximately how many homes or houses were in the village of
1 Susanj in 1993?
2 A. In 1993, I think about 118 houses. That's the number. And those
3 who made lists, they said 120 families or households, because some houses
4 would house two families, for instance.
5 Q. Mr. Vuleta, at the time you left the village on the 9th of June,
6 1993, the -- where was the tractor that you've told us about at that
7 time, when you left?
8 A. I went from my house towards the -- towards Pojske, the village.
9 And there's a middle bend there. The tractor stayed behind in front of
10 Marijan Vuleta's house and I could see it in front of Marijan Vuleta's
11 house. Whether that one was taken away or not, I don't know because I
12 couldn't see that. There was a bend in the road, and I didn't dare look
13 around too much either.
14 Q. Mr. Vuleta, at the time you arrived in the village of Susanj in
15 the morning of the 9th of June, 1993, what was the condition of the
16 houses in the village?
17 A. Tomo Markovic's house had been set fire to by a shell on the 8th,
18 when the attacks took place. And just the door was damaged in the other
19 houses. All the doors were open. Otherwise, the others were left
20 standing. They weren't burnt that day. The roofs were still on the
21 houses. So they weren't burnt that day or the next day either.
22 Q. When after the 9th of June, 1993 did you next return to the
23 village of Susanj?
24 A. I don't know the date, but it was the Sunday before Easter.
25 Because in 1995, when I arrived in Susanj for the first time afterwards,
1 at Ovnak, where the cemetery is, we went to visit our dead. And it was
2 the Sunday before Easter. I don't know the exact date. But anyway, it
3 was in 1995.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuleta.
5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.
8 Let me turn towards the Defence. The Defence has the floor.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vuleta. My name is Edina
12 Residovic. I am the Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic. I'm
13 going to ask you just a few questions, and I should like to ask you to
14 answer, please.
15 You lost your legs in an accident at the ironworks while you were
16 working there; is that right? On the job.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At the time, you were living and working with members of all the
19 ethnic groups living in Zenica at the time, Serbs, Muslims, and Croats
20 alike; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. So all these people, all your fellow workers, the people you
23 worked with, helped you a great deal in surviving such a difficult
24 accident and in becoming capacitated to carry on with your life and to
25 carry on with your work, and they bought you to vehicle that you
1 described to us; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In answer to a question from my learned colleague, you said that
4 two days before the fighting took place on the 8th of June that Fabijan
5 and Zoran Markovic warned you and told you to leave the village, or
6 rather, to go towards Ovnak; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To the best of your knowledge, Fabijan and Zoran Markovic at the
9 time were members of the Croatian Defence Council; is that right?
10 A. I suppose so. I don't really know. I suppose so.
11 Q. Otherwise, all military-able men from your village belonged to
12 the Frankopan Brigade and their company had its headquarters at
13 Grahovcici; is that right?
14 A. I don't know that. I don't know who they belonged to or what
15 they belonged to, but I do know that the HVO as such did exist.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. However, which brigade they belonged to, I can't say.
18 Q. Thank you. The next thing I want to ask you is this: The
19 wounded man Kazimir Markovic, at the request of Ragib Rizvic you took him
20 to hospital in Zenica; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. In Pojske, you were stopped by the army, by soldiers, and you
23 yourself were taken to the school building and the soldiers took the
24 wounded Kazimir to hospital in Zenica themselves; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In response to a question from the Trial Chamber, you said that
2 you testified several times before the court in Zenica.
3 A. Three times.
4 Q. It was a court case against Ragib Rizvic for what he had done to
5 Kazimir; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And Rizvic by the cantonal court in Zenica was found guilty for
8 this act; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuleta. I have no further questions for you.
11 A. Thank you. Thank you too.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 What about the other Defence team?
14 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no questions for
15 this witness, on behalf of Mr. Kubura. I'm grateful.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, additional
18 MR. MUNDIS: Just one or two, Mr. President, arising from the
20 Re-examined by Mr. Mundis:
21 Q. Mr. Vuleta, do you recall the approximate date or time period in
22 which you testified in the court in Zenica, in the case involving
23 Mr. Rizvic?
24 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was, roughly speaking,
25 sometime in the spring or summer. It was warm weather. Before that, I
1 gave a statement, but I can't remember --
2 Q. Do you --
3 A. Anyway, Rizvic -- I don't know the date. I don't remember the
5 Q. Do you recall which year?
6 A. Last year, 2003.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vuleta.
8 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 Mr. Vuleta, your testimony has been completed. You answered
12 questions put to you by the Prosecution and the Defence counsel. We
13 should like to thank you for having contributed to establishing the truth
14 through your testimony, and I'm now going to ask Madam Registrar to
15 escort you out of the room you're in.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This brings us to the end of
19 the testimonies of the two witnesses that were scheduled for today. As
20 we still have some time left, let me ask the parties present whether they
21 have, as Mr. Bourgon says, any representations to make or motions to
23 If there are none, if there are no problems -- but yes, Maitre
24 Bourgon has the floor.
25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Just
1 quickly, I should like to indicate to the Trial Chamber that pursuant to
2 a ruling by the Chamber we filed a motion with more specific information
3 with respect to evidence admitted in other cases. And we, however, sent
4 out the wrong information file. So during the weekend, we sent in a new
5 file which was edited with the right text. So, Mr. President, I hope
6 that on Monday morning we'll be able to distribute this second, corrected
7 text. I was told by the registrar that both texts were distributed. But
8 I'd like to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber that the meritorious
9 text is the second text. So just take into account the second text,
10 which will be translated in English for the Prosecution in due course.
11 And it regards resources of the Registry.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the date of the second
13 text, Maitre Bourgon? Because I have seen the two texts myself. The
14 second is what date?
15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The second, Mr. President, we put
16 the same date on it, but it was sent out to the Registry on Sunday, the
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I seem to remember
19 that above the text it said the hour, it stated the hour as well. So we
20 can check that out. We'll check out which is the right text, because I
21 think that they had the time, the departure time, the time that your fax
22 was sent out.
23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Both texts had
24 two different numbers, but both were registered. So I hope that on
25 Monday morning we'll be able to replace the first document with the
1 second document.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 I'm looking to the Prosecution for any additional remarks. Does
4 the Prosecution intend to respond? Once -- in view of the fact that the
5 document has several pages with additional points of law set out in it,
6 because it is the jurisprudence from a military tribunal following
7 General Rendulic's prosecution, and the subject is developed in this
8 document, would the Prosecution like to respond? And within what time
10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution would certainly like
11 to respond. And if memory serves me correctly, the Chamber had ordered
12 the Prosecution to respond by Friday, the 19th of -- Friday, the 19th of
13 March, that being this Friday.
14 As of this morning, neither Mr. Withopf nor myself have seen the
15 revised version or perhaps -- let me correct that. We have only to date
16 received one version of the Defence motion. I'm not sure if that's the
17 corrected one or if that was the previously filed one. Perhaps, because
18 the Registry either hand-paginates or electronically paginates them, if I
19 could get the Registry page numbers of the final and corrected version,
20 then I can ascertain if in fact we have the correct motion. And I can
21 get that from the registrar immediately after today's proceedings, unless
22 he has it handy.
23 We -- we certainly -- my case manager says she's just received
24 it, so I think we do have that.
25 We certainly will be responding. At this point, Mr. President,
1 it might be premature for me to give you an assurance that we will in
2 fact meet the Friday deadline for filing. However, if it does appear
3 that we might need some additional time, I will certainly make an
4 application to Your Honours for an additional period of time in order to
5 complete that.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] An oral request will be quite
8 I noted the last time that on the 8th of April we will have a
9 hearing for the admission of documents that are not contested by the
10 Defence and which will be tendered by the Prosecution.
11 I should also like to make it quite clear in this connection -
12 but of course we will wait for the response of the Defence in relation to
13 the famous consolidated list - however, regarding the documents that are
14 not contested by the Defence, it would be desirable once you have been
15 informed of the position of the Defence to put these documents into one
16 binder and to plan several binders which will be distributed to everyone.
17 And, of course, a binder for the Registry. And then these exhibits put
18 -- following the order from your consolidated list would allow everyone
19 to find their way around simply. That is the method that I would
20 suggest, which would ensure efficiency of work for us, that is, as far as
21 the documents are concerned.
22 The same will apply for the famous 858 documents. If the Defence
23 decides to tender them at some point in time, then too this method of
24 putting them in binders would facilitate things.
25 On the other hand, the exhibits that are contested, the documents
1 that are contested and that will be tendered during testimony of
2 witnesses, will be admitted one by one as has been indicated, opening the
3 possibility - and I turn to Mr. Withopf for this - that the documents
4 contested by the Defence during General Reinhardt's testimony, then those
5 documents that you intend to tender could also be collected in a single
6 binder, which would be useful for handling purposes during the testimony.
7 And then you will indicate that you intend to tender such and such a
8 number of a document, the Defence will contest it, and the Chamber will
9 weigh the thing out and decide.
10 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, we will certainly
11 follow the suggestions just made by you, Mr. President. There's one
12 issue, however, I wish to address: It's our understanding that on the
13 8th of April the documents will be given an exhibit number. It appears
14 to be advisable, in order to facilitate the work of the registry and both
15 parties, to give such exhibits which are not contested by the Defence
16 exhibit numbers earlier on. That would allow the Prosecution to order
17 their -- to put together their documents in a numerical order following
18 the exhibit number given by the registry. So if at an earlier point in
19 time such documents could be given an exhibit number, that would be
20 beneficial for all parties involved.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Quite. Once we have the
22 position of the Defence regarding the mentioned documents, then if, shall
23 we say, there are 30 or 40 that are not contested, we will know that
24 there will be at least 30 numbers following a certain order. Then we can
25 preempt before the 8th of April the numbers, because those documents will
1 have been officially admitted on the 8th of April. However, the registry
2 will tell us which the numbers are, which would respond to your
4 On the other hand, of course, the contested documents will not
5 have any numbers. And we can only mark them for identification or after
6 the testimony, if they are admitted.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The registrar, in order to
9 carry out his task, tells me that the contested documents could be marked
10 for identification, but we'll reflect upon that possibility. However, we
11 will see. Because clearly, in view of the number of documents, if we
12 preempt numbers and mark for identification, that will mean that the
13 documents that come after that should follow the logical order. And if
14 we do not admit those that have been marked for identification, then we
15 will have numbers missing in the order.
16 But in any event, we will decide in due course.
17 Are there any other questions or matters to be raised regarding
18 the plan for tomorrow? We have witnesses planned. And I give the floor
19 to Mr. Withopf to tell us about the two planned witnesses for tomorrow.
20 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, as it stands now, both
21 witnesses will be made available tomorrow.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I've also noted
23 that on your memorandum for the next week three persons have been
24 envisaged between Monday, the 22nd of March, Tuesday, Wednesday,
25 Thursday, and Friday. There are three persons for the whole week. But
1 as their testimony risks to be quite long, that is probably why that has
2 been planned in this way.
3 As you know, because of the ceremony tomorrow morning, we cannot
4 have the hearing in the morning, unfortunately, which will force everyone
5 to come tomorrow at 2.15. So we'll have our hearing tomorrow at 2.15
6 continuing the proceedings of today. And after that, we will go back to
7 morning sessions for Thursday and Friday, as usual.
8 Having said everything, I thank everyone, and I invite you to be
9 back here tomorrow at 2.15.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.31 a.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th of
12 March, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.