Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6006

1 Friday, 23 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours. Good morning, Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis,

13 Ekkehard Withopf, and the case manager for today is Mr. Hasan Younis.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Can we have the appearances for the Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

17 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,

18 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna

19 Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

22 Mulalic, legal assistant.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber wishes to greet all

24 those present, the representatives of the Prosecution, the Defence

25 counsel, the accused, and Madam Registrar, who is assisting us today, and

Page 6007

1 we also welcome the case manager for the Prosecution.

2 Today we are going to hear a witness, but we first have to let

3 the parties know before we begin with the hearing how we intend to

4 proceed on Tuesday and Wednesday when we'll be discussing documents, so

5 that those two hearing days will be useful and will allow the Judges to

6 make appropriate rulings regarding the admission of documents.

7 The Chamber wishes to thank both the Prosecution and the Defence

8 attorneys for their filings regarding documents, indicating the origin of

9 documents, the numbering of the documents; and the Defence also presented

10 their detailed objections with respect to documents one by one, which

11 means that these documents which are voluminous, coming from both

12 parties, will allow us to properly rule regarding the admission of

13 documents.

14 These two hearings will proceed as follows and will be devoted to

15 five different subjects: On each of the topics that I'm going to

16 mention, the Prosecution and the Defence will express their opinions.

17 The Prosecution will begin. They will elaborate on the topic that I'm

18 going to indicate in a moment. Then the Defence counsel, both of them,

19 will express their point of view. If necessary, the Prosecution will

20 respond. And, of course, the Judges will put any questions they consider

21 necessary to the parties.

22 The topics are the following -- and the first topic, we believe

23 that Tuesday should be devoted to the three first topics and Wednesday to

24 the last two. The first three topics are the following: The first has

25 to do with the sources and origin of the documents. I'll come back to

Page 6008

1 that.

2 The second topic will relate to technical problems related to

3 documents.

4 And the third topic will have to do with the relevance of

5 documents.

6 The fourth topic, which will be addressed on Wednesday, will have

7 to do with questions related to 89(D).

8 And the fifth topic will have to do with the documents which have

9 to be admitted only through witness testimony.

10 Regarding the topic of origin and source of documents and various

11 questions linked to authenticity. Regarding the origin of those

12 documents, in the columns "Sources and additional sources," the Chamber

13 notes that several sources or origins of documents are mentioned, and I

14 quote them: Sarajevo, the ABiH archives; the Zagreb archives; no source

15 for some documents. There's 353 and 409; 16B Sarajevo Blaskic "Defence

16 exhibit, witness Radic or Williams"; Sarajevo, 7th Brigade, Zenica

17 archives; no source of information for 114.

18 Then there are documents without stamps obtained from Vidovic.

19 280, it says "Kordic Defence team." There's also 282 indicated as

20 Defence exhibit. For 312, 320, it is indicated they were obtained from

21 the BiH Federation. We have to know what that means. 352 comes from the

22 Bosnian government. 512, from the Croatian Embassy in The Hague. 392,

23 Ivan Josipovic. Exhibits 392 to 97 were obtained from the Bosnian

24 government. The Travnik prosecutor produces 393, 394, and 395. Then

25 there is 398, 99, 401 coming from the law foundation; 403, coming from

Page 6009

1 the Croatian Television; 406 is Miskovic; 407, from a Dutch officer who

2 worked on the crime sites; 408 is a video recording made by an officer;

3 411, Dikic; 420, 21, coming from Zenica; 454 and 456, Team 9, a crime

4 mission site; 467, coming from the Defence Ministry of BiH; 468 and on,

5 from the RBiH Collection; 413 and 414, OTPD.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the President please slow down.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: There are several documents whose number has

8 not been indicated.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I'm going very quickly, I

10 see it is difficult to follow me. And I am indicating that Amnesty

11 International is mentioned for 479. 481 to 486 -- then there's one

12 coming from the crime committee in Zenica, 582. Then there are documents

13 that could perhaps be introduced now, 593, 594, 598.

14 Regarding all these documents and the sources indicated, before

15 taking a decision on their admissibility, the Chamber wishes to learn

16 from the Prosecution how those documents came to -- into their possession

17 coming from this same source. By way of example, how Amnesty

18 International sent this document, which appears as 479. Was it on the

19 basis of a written request from the Prosecution? Was it Amnesty

20 International itself that sent this to the Prosecution? We would like to

21 know for all the documents in what way those documents came to be in the

22 possession of the OTP. If it was within the framework of an inquiry or

23 investigation, how this happened; did the investigators go to the

24 archives in Sarajevo or -- and made photocopies of those documents.

25 Anyway, we would like to know simply in technical terms how those

Page 6010

1 documents came to be in the possession of the Prosecutor.

2 Also, the Chamber has noted on several occasions and specifically

3 yesterday that documents and orders coming from BiH were produced by the

4 Defence, whereas the Prosecution did not have them in their possession.

5 So how is it possible that if the BiH archives documents were

6 communicated to the OTP, the Defence has other documents which come from

7 the same archives and which the Prosecution does not have? So we would

8 like to know why the Defence has documents which the Prosecution does

9 not, because in the case of an investigation into an archives, the whole

10 archives is taken. And if some are left aside, those may be the ones

11 that the Defence picked up. So we would like to know how is it that

12 Defence produced documents which normally should have been in the

13 possession of the Prosecution. And the Chamber believes that in future

14 cross-examinations they might produce documents in support of questions

15 put within the framework of the cross-examination of General Reinhardt,

16 for instance, and those documents will come from the BiH army, whereas

17 they should have been in the possession of the Prosecution.

18 So regarding all the elements that I have indicated - the

19 Sarajevo archives, Zagreb archives, open sources, unknown sources - the

20 Chamber will next Tuesday request from the Prosecution that it gives us

21 specific explanations under which conditions it obtained those documents,

22 on what date, the way in which the documents were transmitted, and to

23 tell us also if they can why orders which were in the ABiH archives,

24 original orders, were not produced in the original, that we only have

25 copies. There's a mystery there too which we need to clarify. Was it

Page 6011

1 the archives services in Sarajevo which refused to give you originals, or

2 do you have originals which you copied and then you sent back the

3 originals? We need to be informed about this, because if we have

4 originals in front of us, some discussions that took place or that will

5 take place could have been avoided if we had the original documents. So

6 we need such additional explanations from the Prosecution.

7 Furthermore, concerning these documents, as I have said, we need

8 to be informed how those documents were collected. I have discovered

9 that the Croatian Embassy in The Hague has produced a document; there,

10 too, we need to know was it the Prosecution who addressed the ambassador

11 or the ambassador who sent the document to the Prosecution. We need to

12 know the origin of that document.

13 Regarding documents coming from the government, was it on the

14 basis of a written request from the Prosecutor or was it a spontaneous

15 contact from the government? So as far as possible, we would like to

16 have these matters clarified, as we consider them to be very important.

17 Regarding the authenticity of documents, to the extent to which

18 the Prosecution is tendering certain documents into evidence, it is

19 because the Prosecution believes that those documents are authentic. The

20 Prosecution has been able to see that in the filings of the Defence

21 authenticity is being contested. So in the light of the remarks made by

22 the Defence, the Prosecution needs to tell us on what basis they believe

23 these documents are authentic.

24 Regarding military orders, there are a dozen or so which come

25 from various sources, either from the BiH army or the HVO. The Chamber

Page 6012

1 would like to know what are -- what were the procedures applied by the

2 Prosecution with the BiH army regarding the diffusion of those documents.

3 We have noted on several occasions that documents beared --

4 carried the name of the addressee to the 312th Unit, to the 7th Brigade,

5 et cetera. Sometimes there was an addressee and in other cases there

6 were orders with no addressees. There's an order, but we don't know who

7 it is addressed to. So it would be desirable -- to the extent that the

8 Prosecution is able to do that, of course, because it is up to them; they

9 should have done this work in advance; and that is, to indicate to the

10 Chamber what were the procedures that their investigators applied

11 regarding these orders from the BiH army and the HVO, how they were

12 issued, they're oral orders, written orders, the nature of those written

13 orders, and how they were distributed, if the Prosecution is able to tell

14 us. They may not be able to. But if they are, they should tell us that

15 as they're asking for an order to be admitted and this is being

16 challenged, that they should explain how those orders were taken, made by

17 the BiH army. And then the Defence will tell us their point of view.

18 So that is the first topic. On the basis of what I have said,

19 the Prosecution will present to us all these elements; upon which we

20 shall give the floor to the Defence, which will convey their views. That

21 is the first topic.

22 The second topic relates to technical problems linked to

23 documents. We have noted on several occasions that documents were poorly

24 photocopied and again, questions arise. If an investigator of the OTP

25 photocopies a document, if he copies the original, how is it that on

Page 6013

1 copies that we have seen there are areas that are blackened out and that

2 are illegible? So these are important questions. If the Prosecution

3 could explain to us why documents were badly photocopied, we will be glad

4 to receive such information.

5 We have also noted that some documents lack signatures. When it

6 comes to military orders, it says "Commander," for instance, and a name,

7 but no signature. So several questions arise: Was this document signed

8 at a given point? Was it not signed? Was it a duplicate of an original?

9 Because as you know, in the administration of countries, there's one

10 document and then there are duplicates. The first document is signed by

11 the author and the duplicates are not signed. So the question relating

12 to documents without signatures is whether those documents are perhaps

13 duplicates, which would explain why there's no signature on them. The

14 Prosecution perhaps could provide us with some explanations in that

15 regard.

16 There's also contestations by the Defence regarding illegible

17 signatures. By way of example, there was a document which could be

18 attributed to the late Mr. Alagic, and there's a signature on it. In

19 theory, Mr. Alagic must have signed other documents as well, and the

20 Prosecution surely has in its possession Mr. Alagic's signature, and then

21 it is quite easy to say, "This signature, which is being contested," and

22 compare it with Mr. Alagic's signature appearing on such-and-such a

23 document. Therefore, illegible signatures could be dealt with in that

24 way.

25 Then there are also documents which are written in hand and which

Page 6014

1 appear in the binders which you have provided us with. These handwritten

2 documents, one has to know again who wrote them, to what extent those

3 handwritten documents were in the archives. There's a whole series of

4 questions regarding handwritten documents. Perhaps the Prosecution can

5 enlighten us on this.

6 Also, sometimes documents in B/C/S have English translations but

7 the English translations appear to be incomplete. Then again, if there

8 are incomplete translations, why is that so? What is the reason?

9 So there's a whole list of technical problems that have been

10 raised, and the Defence has referred to them in their filings, and it

11 would be desirable for the Prosecution to clarify these problems next

12 Tuesday.

13 The third topic, relevance, which is an important problem, as you

14 well know. The Defence in conformity with the oral ruling of the Chamber

15 has indicated in its filings the grounds for which they consider some

16 documents not to be relevant, but we don't know more than that. It's

17 just indicated that they are not relevant. If the Prosecution wishes to

18 have all those documents tendered, it is because they consider them to be

19 relevant; however, the Defence says that some of them are not relevant.

20 So let me give you a single example which will allow the parties to

21 understand better.

22 Document 33 is a letter from the commander of the 7th Brigade to

23 Mr. Kordic, and this letter has to do with volunteers in the 7th Brigade,

24 and there's a reference to Arab volunteers. It's a letter which was

25 written and which has to do with the question of the Mujahedin. The

Page 6015

1 Defence says it's not relevant. Regarding this type of document, we

2 would like to know - this is just an example - but we need to have

3 explanations as to why in the opinion of the Prosecution these documents

4 are relevant. So therefore this third topic of relevance, which is a

5 central issue, needs to be addressed by the Prosecution and to the extent

6 possible, if the Prosecution is able to, during their presentation they

7 should address the question of relevance by groups of documents, because

8 the Defence has indicated "not relevant" for each document, and the

9 Prosecution shall tell us why those documents are relevant by groups and

10 then the Defence will elaborate their position in greater detail.

11 The following topic has to do with 89(D). As you know very well,

12 the Rule envisages that the Chamber may exclude all evidence if its

13 probative value is substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a fair

14 trial. And a series of documents is listed which in the opinion of the

15 Defence should be excluded, as they would prejudice the accused and would

16 call in question a fair trial.

17 As everyone knows, the principles ruling a fair process is

18 impartiality and independence of Judges; the fact that accused has a

19 right to a fair defence; the public nature of the debate; that the right

20 of the Defence is respected within reasonable time limits; and the rights

21 of the accused to ask questions of the witness during the trial. These

22 are the principles which are observed on an international level on the

23 basis of the human rights and civil liberties and international

24 jurisprudence.

25 Therefore, regarding 89(D), the Defence tells us that there are

Page 6016

1 several documents which in their opinion, should they be admitted, would

2 prejudice the rights of the accused. Here again we need to know how this

3 would violate the rights of the accused and call in question a fair

4 trial. It's not sufficient just to say 89(D), but we have to have

5 explanations why this would be prejudicial.

6 As the Prosecution knows which are the documents which in the

7 view of the Defence do not -- are not appropriate on the basis of 89(D),

8 then the Prosecution will tell us why that is not so and then the Defence

9 too will elaborate. And if you ask of the Chamber that they exclude

10 certain documents, you have to explain why.

11 And finally, a fifth topic, which will perhaps be the briefest:

12 The Chamber would like to learn from the Prosecution and the Defence

13 which are the documents appearing in this famous list which should be

14 admitted only once a witness comes to testify; that is, in May and June.

15 That is, documents that have to be tendered through a witness. Perhaps

16 in this case too it would be interesting to learn the opinions of both

17 parties as to which documents necessarily have to be introduced through a

18 witness, as was done yesterday by showing the witness a certain document.

19 In that way the witness can authenticate a document and answer important

20 questions regarding the contents of that document. So that would be the

21 fifth topic.

22 What I have just said is the result of deliberations by the

23 Chamber over several days regarding these crucial issues, because we must

24 avoid being flooded by documents and the replies to all these topics will

25 clarify things for everybody, and the Chamber will thus be fully informed

Page 6017

1 and then be able to rule regarding the admissibility of those documents

2 or we might decide to mark them for identification and others will be

3 admitted as exhibits.

4 But I must remind that admissibility should not be confused with

5 probative value, which is quite a different matter. We are discussing

6 the admissibility of documents at this stage, rather than assessing the

7 probative value of those documents.

8 I wanted to tell you this, which means that next Tuesday the

9 Prosecution will address the first topic first and then the Defence.

10 I'm not going to give you the floor again on these topic, because

11 then we would reopen the debate. I think things are quite clear now.

12 The Chamber has the duty to avoid any wasting of time. It also has the

13 responsibility of allowing the Prosecution to present the documents for

14 its case and also to allow the Defence to contest the arguments of the

15 Prosecution, and it is within this adversarial debate that the documents

16 will be reviewed and the Chamber will appreciate the probative value of

17 those documents; but that will come later.

18 We have a witness today; he is Mr. Chambers -- yes, Mr. Bourgon.

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. The

20 Defence wishes to thank the Chamber for the explanations regarding next

21 week.

22 There's one question I would like to address: I spoke to my

23 learned friend from the Prosecution regarding the hearings for next week.

24 Next week a witness is planned for Thursday. My learned colleague tells

25 me that if the discussions are not completed regarding the admissibility

Page 6018












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6019

1 of documents, then this witness could be cancelled for Thursday. But the

2 Prosecution also tells us that they do not wish to take this decision in

3 advance, before consulting the Chamber on this subject, as the witness is

4 ready to come but he can be postponed. And we would like to know,

5 because this is important -- an important witness, the witness planned

6 for Thursday requires considerable preparation and we would like to know,

7 Mr. President, what would be the position of the Chamber regarding the

8 hearing on Thursday, the 29th, if the discussion on the admissibility of

9 documents is not completed by then.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If the discussion on

11 admissibility is not completed next Thursday, it will continue, because

12 this question of admissibility of documents has to be dealt with as soon

13 as possible. And if we don't finish on Wednesday, it will be carried

14 over to Thursday.

15 But since we have structured the debate, we have indicated that

16 the first three topics should be addressed the first day, the fourth and

17 fifth topic should be addressed on Wednesday, I think that we will be

18 able to judge better on Tuesday at the end of the afternoon. We'll see

19 whether we are late or not. If on Tuesday we see that it is more

20 complicated than we expected, then the Prosecution can tell the witness

21 that he will be heard on another day. This matter of documents needs to

22 be regulated as soon as possible.

23 On this point, as you already spoke to each other, I didn't think

24 it necessary to give the floor to Mr. Withopf, but nevertheless, have you

25 anything to say regarding what has just been raised? You spoke amongst

Page 6020

1 yourselves, so I thought if Mr. Bourgon spoke, it meant that he and you

2 were in agreement. But as this is an adversarial proceedings, I give you

3 the floor.

4 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, yes, that's correct,

5 this issue has been discussed between Defence and the Prosecution. And

6 as my learned friend from the Hadzihasanovic Defence indicated, the

7 Prosecution only wishes to make this decision at the latest possible

8 point in time in order to not waste court time. We will make such a

9 decision on Tuesday. Obviously, since we have the morning sessions next

10 week, it may or may not be possible to extend these sessions if possible.

11 That would be another solution to this problem. The Prosecution,

12 however; doesn't want to decide today or on Monday on this issue, since

13 we may cover all related issues on Tuesday and Wednesday very well.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think we will

15 know where we stand at the end of the hearing on Tuesday and we will see

16 whether we can observe the planned schedule or whether, unfortunately, we

17 have to postpone the hearing of Mr. Morsink.

18 Madam Usher, will you be kind enough to bring in the witness.

19 Regarding this witness, I indicated a moment ago that there are

20 three documents on the list with his name, and the document you sent us

21 on the 15th of April -- apparently you plan to tender a document through

22 this witness.

23 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, the Prosecution will use during the

24 examination-in-chief of this witness Prosecution Exhibit Number P223.

25 That's the only document we intend to use.

Page 6021

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Good morning, sir. Can you hear what I am saying in --

4 translated in your own language? If this is the case just say yes.


6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have been named

7 witness for the Prosecution to testify about events in 1993. I would

8 like you to identify yourself, to give us your name and surname.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Guy Chambers.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you born?

11 THE WITNESS: I was born on the 9th of December, 1958.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which village, town, in

13 which country?

14 THE WITNESS: I was born in Colchester, in the United Kingdom.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are saying that you're a

16 lieutenant colonel. What is your current occupation in the military?

17 THE WITNESS: I am a lieutenant colonel in the military, yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But can you tell us where you

19 are working at present.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes. Presently I'm working in Shrewsbury in the

21 United Kingdom, in part of the headquarters, the 5th Division, in the UK

22 army.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your

24 occupation in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 THE WITNESS: I was a major working in the military information

Page 6022

1 cell in the Bosnia-Herzegovina command in Kiseljak from September 1993

2 until April 1994.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

4 before a domestic court or an international court, or is it the first

5 time you are testifying before a court?

6 THE WITNESS: It is my first time.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since it's the first time that

8 you are testifying, could you please read out the solemn declaration in

9 your own language. The usher will give you the text.

10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.


14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since it is the first time you

15 are testifying in court, I think it would be useful to give you some

16 explanations about the proceedings. The Prosecution, which is to your

17 right and which you have met in the proofing, will first ask you

18 questions, questions based on a written statement which was made a while

19 ago. This is referred to as an examination-in-chief.

20 Following -- after that, that is, the -- there are six people who

21 are to your left. They will be asking you questions about the procedure,

22 and this will be a cross-examination. The questions will attempt to

23 verify your credibility and will ask you questions about the political,

24 military context at the time.

25 The three Judges in front of you might also, in view of the

Page 6023

1 common-law procedure, can ask you questions at any point in time, either

2 in function of the questions already asked by both parties, or if -- when

3 the Judges believe that it is necessary to answer points that have not

4 been made and which are important for the establishment of truth. And

5 then we shall be asking you questions, and when we ask you questions of

6 that kind, then the Prosecution and the Defence will also be able to ask

7 you questions after that.

8 You have made a solemn declaration. You have sworn to tell the

9 truth. You will not be able to make false testimonies. And in case you

10 do, you may have to face the consequences; but this is highly unlikely,

11 given your position.

12 It is also possible that a witness has to answer questions and in

13 the questions he provides it may be possible that some elements of his

14 answers may one day be used against him, because it may appear that the

15 witness has committed or has been an accomplice of a crime. At that

16 time, the witness can refuse to answer. This has been provided for in

17 the law of many common-law countries and also in the continental

18 countries too. In that situation, the Chamber can tell the witness to

19 answer the question but also pointing out that in that event the answer

20 can be used against him -- cannot be used against him. This is an

21 immunity granted to the witness, and in both systems this can be

22 attributed only by the Prosecution and not the Judges.

23 It may seem complicated to you, but I tried to summarise the --

24 how the proceedings will evolved.

25 If you have any difficulties, please point them out and try to

Page 6024

1 answer the question in a complete and concise fashion because we are

2 engaged in an oral hearing and what you say will shed light to us and the

3 Chamber.

4 If you note that the questions of the -- by the Defence are of a

5 certain nature and the questions -- the questions of the Defence will be

6 slightly different than those of the Prosecution, so, give thought to

7 both questions by both parties so that the Judges can be clear on this.

8 Mr. Withopf, I believe that you will be conducting the

9 examination-in-chief, so I shall give you the floor now.

10 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11 Examined by Mr. Withopf:

12 Q. Good morning, sir.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Sir, you already mentioned that you are still a serving member of

15 the British Army. In what -- what is your current rank?

16 A. I am currently a lieutenant colonel.

17 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber briefly

18 summarise your military career within the British Army with an emphasis

19 on your deployments overseas.

20 A. I understand, yes. I was commissioned into the British Army in

21 1978. I then spent six years as a platoon commander of various

22 platoon-sized organisations, predominantly in reconnaissance, and in that

23 time I served in Cyprus, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Germany. I then

24 returned to the United Kingdom, where I was the adjutant of a United

25 Kingdom infantry battalion, and from there I went to staff captain in

Page 6025

1 headquarters 24 Airmobile Brigade, again in the United Kingdom. Between

2 1984 and 1985 I was for two years in Northern Ireland as

3 second-in-command of an infantry company, and from 1990 to 1992 I was a

4 company commander in Germany, and I also during that time served in the

5 first Gulf War in Iraq and in West Belfast for six months. From there I

6 went to Toronto in Canada and attended the Canadian Armed Forces Staff

7 College. And immediately on return from there I went on the deployment

8 in which this Court is most interested, from September of 1993 to April

9 of 1994 as the military information officer in headquarters

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina command in Bosnia.

11 Subsequent to that, I have held a variety of appointments, a

12 company commander at Sandhurst and second-in-command of an infantry

13 battalion, which included deployments to Kenya, training the Sierra

14 Leonean army in Sierra Leone during that particular conflict, and most

15 recently, last year I was the commanding officer of a covert surveillance

16 organisation in Kosovo, known as the Intelligence, Surveillance and

17 Reconnaissance Task Force. Currently, as I was previously mentioned, I'm

18 now in a staff appointment based in headquarters 5th Division in

19 Shrewsbury in the United Kingdom.

20 Q. Thank you very much. You already mentioned that you were

21 deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina between September 1993 and April 1994.

22 Can you please inform us as to where you were headquartered.

23 A. The headquarters were in Kiseljak, with a -- that was

24 headquarters Bosnia-Herzegovina command, though the commander of the

25 headquarters lived in the residency in Sarajevo and I spent some days

Page 6026

1 working there as well.

2 Q. Can you please tell us, sir, what was the geographical area of

3 responsibility of your headquarters.

4 A. The whole headquarters was responsible for the whole of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, from Tuzla in the north to Gornji Vakuf in the south,

6 from Travnik, if you like, in the west, to Sarajevo in the east. I,

7 though, had a specific area of responsibility within that.

8 Q. You already mentioned it; what was your rank at the time in

9 1993/1994?

10 A. I was a major.

11 Q. What were your concrete responsibilities whilst being deployed

12 within the UNPROFOR military information department?

13 A. Yes. I was one of a number of officers in the small department

14 which was the military-information department of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15 command. The small department consisted of a French full colonel called

16 Colonel Latapie, and six multinational officers, of which I was one, each

17 of which had a responsibility for a certain area of Bosnia. And each of

18 our responsibilities was to collate all the military information of our

19 specific area and make assessments -- report our findings, make

20 assessments on the warring factions, the conduct of the war, and to try

21 and make predictions about military action to come for the purpose of

22 ensuring our humanitarian aid avoided the major conflict areas.

23 Within that, I had three specific areas that I was responsible to

24 look at and understand, and they were the area were -- looked after by

25 the British Battalion, centred on Vitez; the area looked after by the

Page 6027

1 Canadian Battalion, centred on Visoko; and the area looked after by the

2 French 3rd Battalion, based at Sarajevo airport.

3 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber how information was

4 collected.

5 A. Information was passed to each of the six desk officers by the

6 various units on the ground. And in my case, my three battalions, that

7 is, the British Battalion, Canadian Battalion, and French 3rd Battalion,

8 their military -- they each had a military-information cell that would

9 pass us written reports and oral reports on a very -- on a daily and

10 sometimes hourly basis of what was happening on the ground. They would

11 also provide us with summaries and their own assessments of the war and

12 what the warring factions were doing to one another.

13 In addition to those primary sources of information, there were

14 many other sources, and they came from the United Kingdom liaison

15 officers, which were 24 captains who had a specific responsibility to

16 meet with the warring faction commanders and find out information. We

17 also received a lot of information from the United Nations Military

18 Observers, from the ECMM, the European commission military monitors, and

19 from a number of the non-governmental organisations from their travels

20 around Bosnia, who passed information to us.

21 Q. Would it be fair to say, Lieutenant Colonel, that you in your

22 position had a very comprehensive overview of all information which could

23 be gathered by independent sources?

24 A. Yes, that would be true to say. We -- I sat in the centre of the

25 headquarters and what military information we had, I had at that time as

Page 6028

1 good an overview as anybody.

2 Q. The information you got, was it put on paper?

3 A. Sometimes. But particularly from -- and sometimes -- and mostly

4 the information we received from the battalions was on paper, but the

5 information that we received from the United Kingdom liaison officers,

6 United Nations Military Observers, European commission military monitors

7 and non-governmental organisations, was normally oral, or verbal.

8 Q. The information you got, either in writing or oral or verbal, did

9 you summarise such information on paper?

10 A. Yes, I did. When the information seemed to be either important

11 or seemed to concur and form a pattern, then I would place that on paper.

12 What I would do every day was I would write a daily situation report

13 which was for myself, my own diary, if you like, on a computer, and from

14 that I would then contribute my -- summarise my daily assessments and

15 information into a weekly situation report, which I would compile on the

16 Sunday of every week.

17 Q. These daily and the weekly situation reports, where were they

18 sent to?

19 A. They went to headquarters UNPROFOR in Zagreb. They went to the

20 5th Allied Tactical Air Force in Vicenza. They went to all the

21 contributing nations' national ministers of defence back in their home

22 base and they also went back down to the units that we commanded to show

23 them our collective summary at the end of the week.

24 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber, Lieutenant Colonel,

25 about the purpose of these reports.

Page 6029

1 A. Yeah. The predominant purpose was to keep all national

2 governments aware of the situation, the detailed situation in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the external aim -- and, of course,

4 headquarters UNPROFOR. But internally, the predominant aim was to get a

5 good understanding of the war in Bosnia, the warring factions, for the

6 purposes of trying to avoid the conflict -- to allow for the humanitarian

7 aid -- the most effective delivery of humanitarian aid.

8 Q. Sir, you already mentioned your area of responsibility. Did you

9 travel a lot within that area?

10 A. I did travel quite frequently to Vitez and to visit the British

11 Battalion there, and also the British infantry company that was based in

12 Gornji Vakuf. I also travelled quite frequently to Visoko to visit the

13 Canadian Battalion, and French Battalion -- 3rd French Battalion at

14 Sarajevo airport. I further travelled to Mostar on occasion, and right

15 through to the southern flank of Bosnia-Herzegovina, right through into

16 Croatia and to Split. So I used to travel maybe up to one day -- one to

17 two days a week.

18 Q. How would you describe, sir, the military situation - and I'm

19 referring to the military situation between the HVO and the ABiH - within

20 the area of the ABiH 3rd Corps during the time you were in Central

21 Bosnia?

22 A. Yes. The confrontation line between the HVO and the ABiH at the

23 time was predominantly or mainly stable in the southern end of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The one persistent confrontation area was Gornji

25 Vakuf, where we encountered many problems with the HVO and attacks on

Page 6030

1 humanitarian-aid convoys coming up through Gornji Vakuf. Obviously,

2 later in my time in around January or February of 1994, the Croat-Muslim

3 cease-fire was called and then the peace accord then followed subsequent

4 to that. However, within the certain - as I would describe them -

5 pockets of Kiseljak, which was a Croat pocket, Vitez, and the Gornji

6 Vakuf area, there were always persistent infringements on the

7 confrontation line as one side tried to gain advantage over the other and

8 small fire-fights around those pockets.

9 Q. In terms of manpower, which was the stronger army, the HVO or the

10 ABiH?

11 A. The ABiH was stronger, in terms of numbers of soldiers; and my

12 feeling was -- my perception is that they had a greater fighting prowess

13 and possibly they had greater motivation. The HVO, without question, had

14 much better equipment, and if they had had either the quality of

15 personnel and the commitment, they could have been far more successful.

16 But on balance, the ABiH were the more effective soldiers and the more

17 effective fighting force.

18 Q. In terms of manpower, they were stronger than the HVO, you just

19 said. Just for clarification, to what extent were they stronger than the

20 HVO?

21 A. It is very hard to give a figure at any one time, because

22 obviously each side, Croat and ABiH -- or HVO and ABiH, would mass their

23 troops where they felt they wished to do an offensive or effect an

24 offensive. But I would say probably in the region of two times stronger

25 in manpower terms.

Page 6031












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6032

1 Q. To your knowledge and from what you have seen yourself, were

2 refugees, Muslim refugees, incorporated in ABiH 3rd Corps military units?

3 A. Yes, they were. There were two brigades of the ABiH army and

4 coming under the command of 3rd Corps specifically, and that was 17

5 Brigade - one-seven brigade - who were displaced Muslims from the

6 Krajinas; and there was another unit, I think it was -- I may be wrong

7 with my number, but 305 was again another displaced Muslim -- there were

8 displaced Muslim soldiers within that. The third unit that contained

9 some displaced Muslim soldiers was 7 Muslim Brigade, who were based in

10 the Zenica area.

11 Q. Did you get to know, Lieutenant Colonel, who was the commander of

12 the ABiH 3rd Corps once you arrived in Central Bosnia?

13 A. Sorry, would you have a name for him?

14 Q. Do you know a person with the name Enver Hadzihasanovic?

15 A. I know of Enver Hadzihasanovic, and I was aware of his position

16 as commander of the 3rd Corps. I never met Enver Hadzihasanovic, but I

17 was aware of him and I had some background briefing material on him which

18 was passed to me by the British Battalion.

19 Q. This background briefing material on Enver Hadzihasanovic which

20 was passed to you by the British Battalion, what did it reveal in terms

21 of Enver Hadzihasanovic's control of his troops under his command?

22 A. There are two separate items to which I am now going to refer:

23 The first is the personality briefs that were passed to me; and the

24 second is a more general assessment or recollection that I have of Enver

25 Hadzihasanovic and his command.

Page 6033

1 On the first point, when I arrived in September of 1993, the

2 British Battalion had collated a number of personality briefs on the main

3 personalties in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was one personality per

4 significant military commander or civil -- or person of civil importance,

5 and those contained the name, nicknames, car, car registration, home

6 address, family details, telephone numbers, and such forth.

7 Regarding Enver Hadzihasanovic, the only thing I can remember

8 from that -- directly from that personality brief was the nickname that

9 he either liked to go by or was called by his men or perhaps by the

10 British Battalion, which was "The Fox." That is the personality brief.

11 With regard specifically to your question about what do I know

12 about his command and the command of his men, he was considered by the

13 British Battalion and by me and others to be an effective commander and

14 probably one of the most effective commanders of the ABiH army command.

15 He ran an effective corps who were battling on three sides - a

16 particularly difficult command, fighting HVO, the Serbs over in -- in

17 Travnik, the Novi Travnik area, and various pockets, the Kiseljak pocket

18 within his command and, of course, the Vitez pocket. A very hard command

19 to have to try and fight with. The general perception was that he was a

20 good, a strong, and an effective commander who had the respect of his

21 men. And he had a close relationship with the operational group command,

22 Mehmed Alagic, who from our perception appeared to be his, what I would

23 call, chief of staff.

24 Q. Being an effective commander, as you describe Enver

25 Hadzihasanovic, does this imply that the control of his troops under his

Page 6034

1 subordination was good?

2 A. I think in general terms that is true. In the environment of

3 Bosnia at that time, I believe that he had control over most elements of

4 his corps, yes.

5 Q. You already mentioned an individual with the name Mehmed Alagic.

6 Can you please inform the Trial Chamber about the information you got at

7 the time about him, and again in respect to the effectiveness of his

8 command and control.

9 A. Yes. Mehmed Alagic is one of the few higher commanders that I

10 met, though only very briefly for coffee, and he was a man who you felt

11 was respected by the British Battalion and the forces within Bosnia. He

12 also was seen -- or it was felt that he was a very strong commander who

13 had the ability to grip and was quite robust within the 3rd Corps, in

14 terms of discipline or ensuring that orders were effectively carried out.

15 He also seemed to be the go-between, as I would put it, the interlocutor,

16 between Enver Hadzihasanovic and the Bosnian 7th Muslim Corps -- the

17 7th Muslim Brigade, my fault.

18 Q. Whilst you've been in Central Bosnia, did you get information on

19 troops which were called Mujahedin?

20 A. Yes. Before my arrival, a Captain Whitley [phoen] of the British

21 army, who was serving in the post that I took over, conducted some small

22 studies into the Mujahedin elements within the ABiH. He left me a short

23 report on his understanding of Mujahedin activity. I took that report on

24 and continued to monitor Mujahedin activity and the activities of 317 and

25 7 Brigade in particular. I was prompted though to study them slightly

Page 6035

1 more carefully by a request for information that came to me.

2 Q. You were just informing the Trial Chamber, sir, that information

3 on the Mujahedin was collected by Captain Whitley prior to your arrival.

4 Can you please inform the Trial Chamber from when to when Captain Whitley

5 was deployed in Central Bosnia.

6 A. Yes. He was -- his job was split between two locations. He

7 spent part of his time in Kiseljak in Bosnia-Herzegovina command and part

8 of his time in Split with the United Kingdom element that was based down

9 in Split in Croatia. Consequently, he was not able to concentrate much

10 time on the study of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but he was there, in those two

11 locations, Split and Kiseljak, between April of 1993 and September of

12 1993.

13 Q. Does this mean, sir, that Captain Whitely collected the

14 information which -- on the Mujahedin which resulted in his report, which

15 was the basis of your own report, was collected between April 1993 and

16 September 1993?

17 A. I think the report that you're referring to quite rightly is the

18 response to the request for information, which I'm sure we may cover

19 later, from General Chambers in Vicenza, from the 5th Allied Tactical

20 Air Force. That was a blend of information. It contained some parts of

21 Captain Whitely's reports, but it also contained new information which I

22 had collated between September and November of 1993 and other information

23 that had come to me. It was a blend of information.

24 Q. The information which formed part of your report - and we'll come

25 to this report in a minute - is the result of information collected by

Page 6036

1 Captain Whitely between April 1993 and September 1993 and the information

2 you yourself collected on the issue of Mujahedin; is that correct?

3 A. That is perfectly correct, yes.

4 Q. What was the definition of "Mujahedin" whenever you used the word

5 "Mujahedin?"

6 A. "Mujahedin," by my understanding then and indeed now, referred to

7 the foreign national fighters who were fighting on behalf of the ABiH.

8 "Mujahedin" in all instances meant foreign nationals who came from such

9 countries as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Jordan, and so on. They were fighting

10 what they considered to be jihad, or holy war, and they were there really

11 trying to progress the Muslim fundamentalists or the fundamentalist

12 Muslim concept, as opposed to having a particular interest in the

13 inter-Nicene warfare that was present in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time.

14 The majority of them had arrived in Bosnia by various means and were

15 working with the Bosnian army, the ABiH, and a considerable -- a number

16 of them were looking to return back to their home, having ceased their

17 interest in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. To your knowledge, Lieutenant Colonel, to your knowledge, within

19 which military unit of the ABiH 3rd Corps were the Mujahedin you just

20 defined as "foreign soldiers" active?

21 A. To my knowledge, we always believed that the majority of

22 Mujahedin were grouped; that is, came under the grouping of 7 Muslim

23 Brigade. And 7 Muslim Brigade was administratively and perhaps in other

24 ways under the grouping of the 3rd Corps. There were some fragments of

25 Mujahedin perhaps in other organisations. I heard mention of Mostar

Page 6037

1 perhaps, and we also were aware of a few Mujahedin who were working or

2 fighting in Sarajevo. But the main grouping, to our knowledge, was

3 under -- was based at Mehurici and was probably -- was under the command

4 of a character by the name of Abu Haris, who himself was under command of

5 7 Muslim Brigade.

6 Q. You were just saying, sir, that the Mujahedin were -- or did form

7 part of the 7th Muslim Brigade. How strong was the 7th Muslim Brigade,

8 in terms of manpower?

9 A. Approximately 5 to 8 hundred men. It tended to vary. As a

10 brigade, yeah, 5 to 8 hundred men.

11 Q. And to your knowledge and based on the information you gathered

12 from the variety of sources you mentioned earlier on, how many of these

13 5 to 8 hundred men were Mujahedin in the sense of the definition you gave

14 us a few seconds ago?

15 A. Probably no more than 2 to 3 hundred.

16 Q. That means 2 to 3 hundred troops within the 7th Muslim Brigade

17 were Mujahedin, meaning foreign nationals fighting within the ABiH?

18 A. That is correct. By our understanding, yes.

19 Q. The 7th Muslim Brigade, to your knowledge, where were their

20 battalions deployed?

21 A. Our understanding was that the headquarters of 7 Muslim Brigade

22 was based in Zenica, and the majority of their sub-units - by that I mean

23 the battalions and the companies within the brigade - lived the majority

24 of their time within ABiH 3rd Corps area. We were aware particularly of

25 the organisation of - or a company strength, maybe a little bit more, a

Page 6038

1 battalion, say - the majority of nationals being under Abu Haris at

2 Mehurici. But the majority of 7th Corps -- 7 Brigade lived within the

3 ABiH 3rd Corps area.

4 Q. In military terms, was the 7th Muslim Brigade, was it a strong

5 military unit?

6 A. Yes. It was a unit with which I was most interested not just

7 because the Mujahedin interest but that they seemed to be used

8 predominantly as an assault or an offensive grouping to conduct offensive

9 tasks. They had probably -- or they did have slightly better equipment

10 than the majority of regular or routine ABiH brigades. They -

11 particularly with the Mujahedin element - perhaps had a more robust or

12 offensive spirit. And for that reason, they were used in an offensive

13 mode, generally speaking, and they were used around the ABiH army area,

14 not exclusively in the 3rd Corps area. They did work in other areas.

15 But they were of interest to me because it made my job in some regards

16 relatively easy to predict activity because all I needed to do was keep

17 my eye on 7 Muslim Brigade and I knew then that there would be trouble

18 or, if you like, an offensive probably in the area where they were at

19 that time.

20 Q. What did you get to know, sir, about the discipline within the

21 7th Muslim Brigade?

22 A. I think there are a few issues here. Firstly, I think it is

23 important that we understand and are clear that the Mujahedin within the

24 7th Muslim Corps -- Brigade, sorry, were -- had arrived to fight a jihad,

25 as they saw it, perhaps arrived ill-informed and as a consequence were

Page 6039

1 disappointed in many cases to find the ABiH was not necessarily as

2 fundamentalist Muslim as they would have hoped. So there were a number

3 of disaffected and disillusioned Mujahedin. That's the first thing, I

4 think.

5 Secondly, the more fundamentalist Mujahedin had alienated

6 themselves from quite a lot of the population by their very

7 fundamentalist beliefs. That caused frictions between the Mujahedin and

8 the local people. It also caused frictions between the military

9 commanders within 7 Brigade and, indeed, within the 3rd Corps, in whose

10 area they lived. The consequence of that is that they -- although they

11 seemed to be an effective military force in the offence, I more than

12 suspect that there were disaffected elements within them that were hard

13 to control and who were not popular, both with the local population nor

14 with some of the other military commanders.

15 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, since I wish to show the witness a

16 report on the Mujahedin, it may be the right time to have the break now.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. It is almost 10.30. We

18 shall adjourn for the break, a technical break. It is not meant for

19 Judges to rest during that break. It's a technical pause.

20 So we shall resume at five to 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Withopf, you may continue.

24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Sir, you earlier on mentioned today that you wrote a report on

Page 6040

1 the Mujahedin. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber on whose request

2 you wrote this report.

3 A. Indeed. We were supported -- the United Nations mission in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina was supported by the 5th Allied Tactical Air Force,

5 which is a NATO organisation based in Vicenza. The commander of that

6 operation was Major General Chambers of the US Air Force. He received a

7 morning briefing, probably on the morning of around the 30th of September

8 ,at which the word "Mujahedin" was mentioned. Consequently, he asked his

9 staff to find out more about the Mujahedin in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was

10 sent a fax known as a request for information from Major General

11 Chambers's staff posing me approximately seven questions, specific

12 questions about the Mujahedin.

13 I replied -- I worked on that form a day or so and I replied, I

14 think it was on the 2nd or 3rd of November, with a fax back to 5th Allied

15 Tactical Air Force in Vicenza with my answers back to their questions

16 based on my knowledge and the research that I had performed.

17 Q. Lieutenant Colonel, I'm now going to show you a document.

18 MR. WITHOPF: With the permission of the Trial Chamber, can the

19 witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit P223.

20 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour. If I could just interject at

21 this stage before the document is shown to the witness.

22 As Your Honours are aware, the Defence has not objected to the

23 admissibility of this report. It's one of the uncontested documents. Of

24 course, the accuracy of the report is a different matter.

25 But there are just two matters I'd like to raise before the

Page 6041

1 witness comments on the document. It's no problem for the witness to be

2 present for them, because they really are technical matters.

3 The one is simply to ask whether or not the short written report

4 of Captain Whitley is available. The reason why I ask that is because

5 it's the first time today we've heard that this report is based on

6 another report, and just to ask whether that report is going to be made

7 available at the same time.

8 And the second matter, Your Honour, concerns a matter of

9 translation. I don't know if Your Honours have a copy of the document

10 before Your Honours with the translation of the document. There is

11 attached at the end of the document a military flow chart of allegedly

12 how the army was structured. And, Your Honour, on that chart, at the top

13 of the chart, there are two different brigade numbers, mentioned, one

14 being the 7th Brigade under the 3rd Corps and the other being the

15 8th Brigade under the 3rd Corps. These numbers do not appear on the

16 translated copy, and I say this for the benefit of the accused and, of

17 course, the translators, so that it's absolutely clear that those numbers

18 that appear on the original in English should appear on the translated

19 copy as well. Number 7 and number 8 for the brigade numbers should

20 appear. I don't think there'll be any objection from the Prosecution on

21 that basis.

22 And in addition to that, the name with a question mark that is

23 given to the 8th Brigade, the El Mujahed name, on the translated copy it

24 appears right next to number 7 Brigade, and that again could create

25 confusion that that name is being associated with number 7, that -- the

Page 6042

1 7th Brigade, when in fact on the original it's quite clearly marked as

2 the name for the 8th Brigade and the place of Zenica, Mehurici is also

3 mentioned there in the same place where the 8th Brigade is indicated.

4 Whereas on the translated version it's quite confusing. It appears as

5 though it's situated next to the 7th Brigade.

6 So I just wish to clarify those matters for the record. I don't

7 think that the Prosecution would have any quarrel with that

8 clarification. It's simply to make it clear that the English version is

9 the governing one and the translated version should have followed that

10 but doesn't in all respects. That's all I wish to say. Thank you, Your

11 Honours.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before giving the floor to

13 Mr. Withopf, there are two problems that have been raised. The first has

14 to do with the report by the predecessor of the current witness on the

15 7th Brigade and consequently on the Mujahedin. That was Captain Whitley.

16 Is that report in the possession of the Prosecution? If it is, why are

17 they not tendering it?

18 And the second problem, which is of a technical nature and which

19 is linked to the annex on structure of the 3rd Corps in Zenica. And in

20 the English version, it is clearly indicated that we have the 7th Brigade

21 and another one called El Mujahed is quite separate; whereas in the B/C/S

22 translation there may be some confusion because the placing of the names

23 does not fully correspond. And since this is a document coming from the

24 witness, through your questions he can tell us that the annex fully

25 corresponds to what he himself drafted and that a distinction should be

Page 6043

1 made between these two units.

2 Mr. Withopf.

3 MR. WITHOPF: If I may please address the second question first.

4 It's certainly correct -- my learned friend from the Kubura Defence has

5 described correctly the situation on the translation. The lead document

6 obviously is the English document, and the witness can certainly clarify

7 all related issues to the translation.

8 In respect to the first question, the Prosecution is not in

9 possession of the report of Captain Whitley; therefore, the Prosecution

10 obviously can't use it and can't tender it into evidence.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 Mr. Dixon, you heard the response of the Prosecution. They do

13 not have the report of Captain Whitley.

14 Please continue.

15 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Sir, I understand you have the report of the 2nd of November,

17 1993 in front of you. It is comprised of four pages. Just a few

18 questions for clarification.

19 Is is this the report you sent based on the request you just

20 informed the Trial Chamber about to Major General Chambers?

21 A. Yes, it is. It's an exact copy of the original that I sent.

22 Q. In the box on the first page on the right-hand side, it says

23 "Drafter: Chambers; Title: Major; Releasing Off.: Major Chambers," and

24 then there is a signature. Is it you and is it your signature?

25 A. Yes, it is me and it was my signature.

Page 6044












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6045

1 Q. On the first page under A, it's written your fax number and then

2 there following a few numbers, and then it says: "RFI from MGen

3 Chambers." I understand that's Major General Chambers.

4 A. That's correct. That is the reference. In other words, I am

5 referring to his fax or that of his staff, that they faxed on the 1st of

6 November at 11.30. And so I am answering that fax there.

7 Q. And "RFI" does it stand for "request for information"?

8 A. It does.

9 Q. At the very bottom on the box on the first page, it says:

10 "Update on Mujahedin in Central Bosnia." Does this imply that you or

11 somebody else had sent an earlier report to Major General Chambers?

12 A. No. I suspect, on memory, that the term "update" was making the

13 assumption that they were -- had been previously reading our generalised

14 report on Bosnia-Herzegovina, and therefore "update" was perhaps a

15 careless word chosen by me. We had sent no previous report specific to

16 the Mujahedin.

17 Q. Does this report you have in front of you, does it summarise what

18 you got to know from the earlier report or the information you have been

19 provided with by Captain Whitley, who collected the respective

20 information between April 1993 and September 1993 and does it also

21 contain information you gathered yourself?

22 A. That is correct. It is a fusion of an element of the report that

23 he left for me, and my own knowledge, and the knowledge of the British

24 Battalion based in Vitez. So yes, a little bit from April to September

25 of 1993, and probably more of my own knowledge and understanding from the

Page 6046

1 British Battalion from September to the 1st or 2nd of November, 1993.

2 Q. What was the basis of the information you gathered yourself in

3 respect to the subject matter of this report? What were the sources?

4 A. The sources were similar to that which I mentioned to the Court

5 earlier, predominantly from the British Battalion, or my primary source,

6 because 7 Muslim Brigade lived within that area, so they had the closest

7 contact and most detailed understanding of 7 Muslim Brigade and Bosnian

8 army 3rd Corps. And, of course, from all the other sources of

9 information, including United Nations Military Observers, European

10 commission military monitors, and so on. But my predominant source was

11 from the British Battalion and their military-information cell.

12 Q. Does this also apply - I mean the source of the information - to

13 the portion which was a result of Captain Whitley's report and which

14 finally formed part of this report, if you know?

15 A. Yes. Captain Whitley, I say, had no independent sources other

16 than the same sources that I had, and indeed, in the vast majority of

17 cases would have been the very same people that I was speaking to. And

18 the reason I can say that is that the battalion -- the British Battalion

19 with whom I had my closest dealing changed over in about October;

20 therefore, from April to October you had the continuity of the same

21 British battalion. So he was talking to the same people that I was in

22 that particular period.

23 Q. Sir, if you could please have a look at page 1 under Arabic

24 number 1. It says: "The ORBAT chart shows the latest information of

25 command structure of 7th Muslim Brigade, which is the primary

Page 6047

1 fundamentalist organisation in Central B-H." Can you please for the

2 benefit of the Trial Chamber elaborate what's meant by "primary

3 fundamentalist organisation."

4 A. "Primary fundamentalist organisation" means that they were the

5 main Mujahedin element within Bosnia-Herzegovina. I accept, and would

6 accept, that there may have been other very small or smaller groupings in

7 other areas, but "primary" meaning that this was the main Mujahedin,

8 i.e., foreign, fundamentalist Muslim fighters.

9 Q. In paragraph 1 of your report, there is reference made to what is

10 called a pictorial ORBAT chart. Is it correct that the pictorial ORBAT

11 chart is page 4 of what you have in front of you?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber explain in

14 your words the information which is contained in this pictorial ORBAT

15 chart.

16 A. Yes, I will. I'll endeavour to. What you can see in front of

17 you - and the Court may have seen similar before; I will assume that the

18 Court has not seen a similar chart - would that be correct? What this

19 shows is the -- it was a British Battalion product and I took their

20 product, this copy of this chart that you have in front of you, was -- is

21 but part of a bigger picture, a bigger ORBAT chart. And "ORBAT" means

22 organisation of a battalion. What it shows at the very top is, it says,

23 "BiH 3rd Corps Zenica."

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Please stop.

25 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

Page 6048

1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Perhaps

2 the witness could point to what he's referring to and we could place the

3 table under the overhead projector so that we have the table on the

4 screen.

5 THE WITNESS: Excellent. What this is is part of a bigger

6 picture. You can see to the left-hand side here that the chart would

7 have gone on in that direction, showing the other elements of the Bosnian

8 3rd Corps. This, if you like, is the right-hand side of a bigger chart,

9 here, and what it shows is the breakdown of the Bosnian 3rd Corps in

10 Zenica, as the title here suggests.

11 Underneath of that, it is just showing this little "X" symbol

12 symbolises brigade, brigade-sized formation. With the number 7 to the

13 left, meaning that is 7 Brigade. And the word "Muslim" is written in the

14 middle. So that is just showing that the organisation that we're about

15 to look at in more detail is 7 Muslim Brigade.

16 In the box underneath of it -- where there is information

17 contained in a box underneath of a symbol, it means that that is hard,

18 firm, factual, and substantiated information. Therefore, what that is

19 saying is that the commander of 7 Muslim Brigade is Kubura and that the

20 organisation is based in Zenica and that the head of security for 7

21 Muslim Brigade is - excuse the pronunciation - "Nesiba Talic."

22 Coming below that, you can see that it is then showing a number

23 of battalions. The two stripes at the top the box indicate that it is a

24 battalion-sized organisation. And you can see to the left number 1

25 Battalion of 7 Muslim Brigade, the "7" to the right, is based in Travnik.

Page 6049

1 Incidentally, the crossed bands across the middle of the box

2 denotes it's an infantry organisation, which is predominantly all the

3 Bosnian Muslim army had. So you then have 1st Battalion based in

4 Travnik, 2nd Battalion based in Zenica, 3rd Battalion based in Kakanj --

5 and this is hard factual information, at Hotel Sretno -- the 4th

6 Battalion based in Maglaj. And when we say 7th Battalion -- sorry, the

7 question mark symbol here and here, because we were aware of a small

8 grouping of 7 Muslim Brigade, we felt, in Sarajevo, but we did not know

9 the size - that's the question mark - or its number or its specific

10 location.

11 Coming down further, we then break down each battalion into the

12 known information. And you can see here there is - if we follow, number

13 1 Battalion of 7 Muslim Brigade based in Travnik - they had three

14 companies, one stripe denoting a company-sized organisation. Where the

15 information is known or was known, it is printed in the box below, and in

16 this example, 1st Battalion, one of their companies was based in Travnik

17 at that grid reference which is written there. And so on down for each

18 of the three companies, the information as we know it.

19 The same, of course, is so for the 2nd Battalion, with detailed

20 information as we know it, and the 3rd Battalion, and so on.

21 I would point out on this graph that Maglaj was, of course, at

22 that time -- had become a pocket, was surrounded, and consequently our

23 information regarding Maglaj was thin. Similarly, Sarajevo was a little

24 bit thin.

25 I just want to point down to here. Where we knew of a commander

Page 6050

1 being in command of an organisation, as I mentioned before, we would

2 print it, and here, for example, at Mehurici, under the 1st Battalion

3 based in Travnik, come down to this company grouping at Mehurici, with a

4 specific grid reference, commanded by Abu Haris which as I mentioned

5 earlier was the grouping that we believed to contain or almost be purely

6 Mujahedin fighters grouped under Abu Haris at that grid reference in

7 Mehurici.

8 Just touching on, as I heard the Defence touch on, the 8th Muslim

9 Brigade over here to the right, El Mujahed, that grouping here. Again,

10 there was talk and discussion at my time that perhaps the 8th -- that all

11 Mujahedin, that is, foreign fighters, might be grouped or become grouped

12 under a new organisation known as 8 Brigade. And at that time, at the

13 time of writing this on the 1st of November, we did not know the detail

14 but we had heard talk that an 8th Mujahedin -- sorry, an 8th Brigade,

15 which would contain all of the foreign nationals, might well be forming.


17 Q. Thank you, Lieutenant Colonel. May I please draw your attention,

18 sir, to page 2 of the report and to the portion which is written under

19 number 3. It says: "The key Mujahedin element is portions of 7 Muslim

20 brigade (Chart attached.) Specifically the group based in Mehurici," and

21 then there's a grid reference, "is exclusively MUJ, commanded by Abu

22 Haris." Do I understand that MUJ stands for Mujahedin?

23 A. Yes, it does. It is an abbreviation for "Mujahedin."

24 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the Trial Chamber elaborate on

25 the statement under 3.

Page 6051

1 A. Yes. Again, British Battalion information and from the United

2 Kingdom liaison officers was that there was a grouping based at Mehurici

3 at the grid reference that you can see there that was exclusively foreign

4 national fighters who perhaps considered themselves to be a group apart,

5 or a grouping within 7 Muslim Brigade but kept to themselves; relatively

6 speaking ethnically pure, in terms of they were all foreigners and no

7 local Bosnians.

8 Q. Can you please draw your attention to what is written at the very

9 bottom of page 2, namely, under number 9, which says: "7th Muslim

10 Brigade are troops that are reserved for the main point of effort. They

11 are never given defensive tasks. Their appearance in an area often

12 indicates imminent conflict." Can you please elaborate on this

13 statement?

14 A. Yes. The 7 Muslim Brigade, with its various component parts -

15 that is, the foreign nationals and in the groupings that also contained

16 local Muslim fighters, Bosnian army fighter, as opposed to foreign

17 nationals - because they were considered operationally more effective

18 than most of the other brigades and perhaps had better equipment,

19 slightly better equipment, and had the added value of the foreign

20 nationals, were a grouping - 7 Muslim Brigade, that is - that were often

21 used to create offensive action in an area.

22 When I say there that they were never given defensive tasks, it

23 could be that there were occasions when, if things were particularly

24 acute, that they may have had to take on some defensive tasks. But they

25 were generally speaking spearpoint, and to use the German military

Page 6052

1 expression as I have, the schwerpunkt of an attack or an offensive in any

2 one area. And there were occasions, of course, when they were used well

3 without sight, outside of 3rd Corps area.

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]


6 Q. Can you please for the benefit of the transcript elaborate on

7 what you do understand under the spearpoint of attacks.

8 A. Yes. It -- we may be discussing command relationships later, But

9 my understanding is that if the Bosnian army felt that they needed to

10 create an offensive for whatever reason in an area, that 7 Muslim Brigade

11 would often be - more often than not, would often be - the organisation,

12 the troops that would be used to go to that area to conduct and start the

13 offensive. Perhaps joined by other groupings and organisations, but

14 usually they would be there at the very front of any offensive action by

15 the Bosnian army.

16 Q. At the very front of offences -- offensive actions by the Bosnian

17 army, does it mean that they were spearheading such offensives?

18 A. There were occasion, yes, where they were spearheading offences.

19 There were other occasion, I believe, where they were there in support of

20 offensive actions and were providing the robust, I say back-stop, the

21 robust core of that offensive. Sometimes they would actually be at the

22 very front. Sometimes they would be close to the front of that action to

23 ensure the success of that offensive.

24 Q. And since the Mujahedin formed a significant part of the

25 7th Muslim Brigade, would it be fair to say that the Mujahedin were

Page 6053

1 spearheading such offences?

2 A. On occasions, yes, they were.

3 Q. You already, Lieutenant Colonel, touched on an issue I wish to

4 briefly address now, namely that the 7th Muslim Brigade was occasionally

5 used outside the geographical area of responsibility of 3rd Corps. Do

6 you recall one or several of such instances? In particular, do you know

7 whether the 7th Muslim Brigade was involved in the ABiH attack on Vares?

8 A. To deal with the first issue, I am aware of a number of occasions

9 when 7 Muslim Brigade were used outside of the 3rd Corps area, and in

10 particular in Fojnica, in Gornji Vakuf. And I am aware that they were

11 conduct -- sorry, and Fojnica was down in the -- I think the 4th Corps

12 area. And there were occasions -- certainly there was an occasion where

13 they were used for some period of time up in Vares, which was up in the

14 2nd Corps area.

15 Q. May I please draw your attention, Lieutenant Colonel, to page 2,

16 number 7. There it says: "7th Muslim Brigade are grouped under command

17 of 3rd Corps." Can you please elaborate on this issue.

18 A. Yes. 7 Muslim Brigade lived -- had their bases - that is, the

19 battalions and the companies - almost exclusively within the 3rd Corps

20 area. To that end, it was our belief that they came under the

21 administrative command, which I will explain, of the commander of

22 3rd Corps, Enver Hadzihasanovic. By "administrative command" what I mean

23 is it is our belief that the 3rd Corps were providing them with weapons,

24 ammunition, water, housing, transport, and all of the logistic effort

25 that it takes to wage warfare. They also lived within the 3rd Corps

Page 6054

1 area, and in that respect one might expect in a regular army that the

2 commander of the corps area in which you live is also responsible for

3 personnel matters, discipline, and those other sorts of things.

4 Q. Just for clarification, the commander of the area in which such

5 troops are deployed is responsible for discipline; does this include the

6 responsibility, the duty, and the power to punish any crimes?

7 A. On a routine basis, in a regular army garrisoned in the area

8 which you command, that would be the case.

9 Q. Thank you very much, sir.

10 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Prosecution has no

11 further questions at this point in time.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Withopf.

13 I am turning to the Defence, which I think asked for some time to

14 prepare for the cross-examination.

15 Madam Residovic.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we said earlier

17 on, in view of the fact that this is a witness who testified today that

18 he based his reports and knowledge not only on UNPROFOR reports - that

19 is, the British, Canadian, and French Battalions - but also on reports he

20 had access to from the European monitors, we have asked that the

21 cross-examination of this witness take place after we have a chance to

22 review the new 10.000 documents.

23 As the Prosecution stated this morning, the witness will be

24 available on Monday for the cross-examination, when the Defence will be

25 quite ready to do the cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.

Page 6055

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Therefore, the

2 cross-examination will take place on Monday, starting at 2.15. I wish to

3 point out to the Defence that the duration of the examination-in-chief

4 was exactly 69 minutes and that in view of the instructions that we gave

5 regarding the time available to the Defence, the Defence will have

6 exactly 1 hour 43 minutes -- let's say 1 hour and three-quarters.

7 It is possible to imagine that after the cross-examination there

8 may be re-examination, and it is almost certain that the Judges will have

9 questions too, which means that the Monday hearing will be fully made use

10 of.

11 Colonel, I'm afraid you will have to come back on Monday. We

12 hope you will enjoy your visit in this town in the meantime. You may be

13 going back home. I don't know. Anyway, between today and Monday, you

14 are prohibited from contacting anyone, either the Prosecution or the

15 Defence, because such is the procedure. As you have taken the solemn

16 declaration, you are now a witness of justice, and neither party may

17 interfere. That is why there is this prohibition on any contact with the

18 Prosecution or the Defence. Therefore, we would like to wish you an

19 enjoyable weekend, and Madam Usher is going to escort you out of the

20 courtroom and invite you to come back on Monday at 2.15.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

22 [The witness stands down]

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we have some time available,

24 regarding the planning for next week, it was discussed at length, but to

25 make sure there's no confusion, Mr. Withopf, could you tell us again the

Page 6056

1 main points for next week, bearing in mind that Friday is a holiday.

2 MR. WITHOPF: For this purpose, could we please go into closed

3 session.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 Madam Registrar, can we go into private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6057












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6058












12 Pages 6058 to 6066 redacted private session.














Page 6067

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session. You

13 have the floor.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in connection with

15 the document which the Defence showed the witness Eminovic and which has

16 DH128 ID, the problem arose with regard to the front page, and the Trial

17 Chamber instructed the Defence to provide an explanation.

18 We have instructed our investigator to send us a scanned page

19 electronically of the document which is in the BH archives, and we also

20 received a statement by the head of the archives of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina that the mentioned document is in the archives in this form.

22 As this statement and document has been translated, I would now

23 like to ask this document and statement to be handed to the Trial

24 Chamber. During the break, we gave the document to the Prosecution. We

25 also asked them whether they needed an electronic version as well. They

Page 6068

1 told us that the document they have received would suffice. And I think

2 that the questions raised in connection with this document have been

3 resolved, and we should now like to tender this document into evidence.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The document that

5 was discussed several days ago had problems linked to the photocopy. The

6 Defence tells us that the document comes from the archives of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina and is producing a statement to that effect by the

8 official responsible for the army archives and which -- and this

9 statement has been translated.

10 Does the Prosecution still have any reservations regarding this

11 document that was marked for identification, or can it now become an

12 exhibit, in view of what has been done to authenticate the said document?

13 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, after the explanation

14 given by my learned friend from the Hadzihasanovic Defence, there are no

15 objections.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. In those

17 circumstances, the ID number becomes an exhibit number.

18 So, Madam Registrar, please make sure that this document now has

19 an exhibit number, both in B/C/S and in English. Simply, we need to

20 attach to the document that was originally tendered the new document that

21 we received today. And it, too, should be given a number.

22 So we need four exhibit numbers, in fact, the original document

23 plus the others.

24 THE REGISTRAR: So for this DH128 ID will become DH128; and the

25 next document will be DH129.

Page 6069












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6070

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But as we have them in

2 B/C/S and in English, DH129/E and the other one /BCS.

3 In any event, in the meantime we have taken note of the fact that

4 the document that was DH128 ID becomes DH128, and the new document is

5 DH129.

6 I wish to thank everyone attending the hearing today, and I

7 invite you to come back on Monday at 2.15.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.08 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of

10 April, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.