Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7717

1 Thursday, 20 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 I'll ask the sole representative of the Prosecution for the

11 appearances now.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

13 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager, Mr. Andres Vatter. I

15 anticipate that Ms. Tecla Benjamin will join us later in the course of

16 today's proceedings. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

18 for the Defence, please.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

20 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,

21 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna

22 Milanovic, our legal assistant. Thank you.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

25 Mulalic, our legal assistant.

Page 7718

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

2 would like to greet everyone present in the courtroom today, Mr. Mundis,

3 Defence counsel, the accused. In particular, I would like to greet the

4 Prosecution's new assistant, Mr. Andres Vatter, who started working

5 yesterday.

6 We have a witness scheduled for today, but before I let

7 Mr. Mundis take the floor, I would like to render the following decision

8 concerning the witnesses.

9 The Trial Chamber, with regard to the explanations presented by

10 the Prosecution about not calling the 19 witnesses, and after having

11 heard the Defence's position, grants the Prosecution's wish not to call

12 these witnesses.

13 Nevertheless, with regard to one witness, Mr. Vlado Adamovic, a

14 former judge, the Trial Chamber would like to invite the Prosecution who

15 wanted to call the witness on the 25th of May, 2004 to inform the Trial

16 Chamber that given the fact that they have requested that a number of

17 documents concerning courts be tendered into evidence - concerning

18 military and civilian courts - the Trial Chamber would like to know if

19 they would like to reconsider their decision not to call this witness.

20 In this case, in such a case it would be possible to hear the witness in

21 order to authenticate certain documents mentioned and in order to provide

22 the Trial Chamber with all the necessary information relating to the

23 contents of these documents.

24 Mr. Mundis, that would mean that the Trial Chamber has taken note

25 of the fact that you don't want to call these 19 witnesses.

Page 7719

1 Nevertheless, we would like to draw your attention to this one witness,

2 and we would like to know whether given the fact that there are a number

3 of documents that ought to be authenticated, you would like to call this

4 witness after all.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Upon reflection and in light of comments made by the Trial

7 Chamber both yesterday and today, the Prosecution would respectfully

8 request that our decision with respect to Mr. Adamovic be reconsidered,

9 and consequently we would be in a position to bring Mr. Adamovic prior to

10 the closing of the Prosecution case. Clearly, he will not be on the

11 schedule as of 25 May. We will endeavour to bring him here during the

12 first ten days of June and of course we'll notify the Trial Chamber and

13 the Defence as soon as we have a confirmed date for the appearance of

14 Mr. Adamovic.

15 Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

17 has taken note of what you have said, and this witness might be appearing

18 as soon as possible, perhaps in the first part of the month of June.

19 We have a witness scheduled for today, but there appears to be a

20 problem. We will therefore go into private session, Mr. Registrar.

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

20 THE WITNESS: Can I ask a technical question, Your Honour?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: I understand also French. Is it possible for me to

23 listen to your questions in French, because it sort of confuses me when I

24 understand both languages.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you understand both

Page 7727

1 languages; you can also answer in French if you like, as you wish.

2 THE WITNESS: I will answer in English, but I will listen the

3 your language in French, the original. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, as far as the

5 technicalities are concerned, it's sufficient for you to switch the

6 microphone off if you don't want to hear what is being said.

7 Please stand up, and you will read the solemn declaration out in

8 English.

9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

10 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down now.


13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please approach the

14 microphones.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As I said, you will now have to

16 answer the questions that will be put to you by the Prosecution, by

17 Mr. Mundis, who is to your right. But before he takes the floor, I would

18 like to provide you with other information.

19 The procedure followed here has been adopted from the common-law

20 system. Once the Prosecution has concluded its examination, Defence

21 counsel will conduct their cross-examination, Defence counsel for the

22 accused, who are at the back of the courtroom, and the Defence counsel is

23 in front of them. They will ask you some questions, and you will see

24 that the questions they put to you won't be identical or of the same kind

25 as those of the Prosecution. They will be asking you questions to verify

Page 7728

1 the credibility of your answers and also to obtain information regarding

2 the political and military context or regarding any other matters that

3 might be of interest to the Defence.

4 Once this stage has been completed, the Prosecution may

5 re-examine you.

6 The three Judges sitting before you may at any stage in the

7 proceedings ask you questions if they think that this might be useful,

8 either because they want additional clarifications or because they

9 believe that certain matters are not quite clear, and in order to

10 establish the truth it's necessary to obtain additional information. In

11 such cases, the Judges will ask you the questions they think are

12 relevant. The Judges may ask you questions at any time, but as a general

13 rule they prefer to wait for the examination-in-chief and

14 cross-examination to be completed. After the Judges have asked you

15 questions, the Prosecution and Defence counsel can also ask you

16 additional questions.

17 To the extent that this is possible, try to provide clear and

18 precise answers to the questions. Since you understand a number of

19 languages, this will be useful to everyone. If you feel that a question

20 is too complicated, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it in

21 clear terms, because as the procedure here is basically an oral

22 procedure, what you say is of crucial importance because we have nothing

23 in writing concerning your testimony. So it is what is said that has

24 importance.

25 In addition, given that you have made a solemn declaration, false

Page 7729

1 testimony should not be given. There is also another provision in the

2 Rules. I will just remind you of it, but it is not something that should

3 be applicable to you. A witness may always refuse to answer a question

4 if the witness believes that his answer could be used against him at a

5 subsequent date. In such a case, it is possible for the Trial Chamber to

6 compel the witness to answer the question but the witness is granted a

7 form of immunity.

8 So this is, generally speaking, the procedure that will be

9 followed in this courtroom. It might be very different from the

10 procedure followed in your country.

11 Having said that, I will give the floor to Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

14 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you begin by telling the Trial

15 Chamber a little bit about the United Nations Center for Human Rights and

16 how that fits into the overall United Nations human-rights system.

17 A. The UN Center for Human Rights, or UNCHR for short, it's a body

18 which doesn't exist any more, which has evolved into the office of the

19 high commissioner for human rights. But at that time it was the

20 department, if you want, of United Nations Secretariat responsible for

21 facilitating all sorts of human-rights-related mandate of the

22 Secretary-General and of other United Nations bodies.

23 In 1993, the UN Center for Human Rights, as mandated by the

24 United Nations Commission for Human Rights, launched its first ever field

25 operation in the former Yugoslavia.

Page 7730

1 Q. Witness, when did you begin working for the UN Center for Human

2 Rights?

3 A. In early 1993 I had been headhunted to be a part of this field

4 operation. I think it was in February, February or March.

5 Q. And, Witness, prior to joining the UN Center for Human Rights,

6 where had you been employed and what was your background? In other

7 words, why were you headhunted, as you put it, for this position?

8 A. Immediately before joining the UN Center for Human Rights, I was

9 a director of the Geneva-based small non-governmental association which

10 dealt with human rights in Russia. That was for about two and a half

11 years. Before that, I worked as an attache of the Russian - at the time

12 Soviet - permanent mission in Geneva and my work line related also to

13 human rights activities of the United Nations.

14 Q. Can you briefly tell the Chamber what type of training or

15 briefing you received prior to going to work for UN Center for Human

16 Rights as it related to the former Yugoslavia.

17 A. I cannot recall of proper briefings or trainings. Me and my

18 colleagues who were also employed as part of this operation, we just went

19 through all kinds of reports and tried to familiarise ourselves as much

20 as we could with the human rights and the political and military

21 situation in the former Yugoslavia at that time.

22 Q. When did you first go to the former Yugoslavia in your capacity

23 as a field officer and where were you based?

24 A. I think it was May 1993, and the -- our logistical location was

25 with the UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb.

Page 7731

1 Q. Besides yourself, Witness, how many other human-rights field

2 officers worked for the UN center?

3 A. Initially there were two prior to my and my colleague's arrival.

4 Then -- so basically there were four of us. And this figure fluctuated

5 between three, four, and five; people came, people go. So it was the

6 core personnel was about four or five strong at any given moment.

7 Q. How long did you remain working for the UN Center for Human

8 Rights in the former Yugoslavia?

9 A. In the former Yugoslavia itself, I worked for several months,

10 almost a year. I left it in March 1994. Then I stayed for a couple of

11 more months in the UN center in Geneva itself.

12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what your specific

13 responsibilities were following your arrival in Zagreb in May of 1993.

14 A. My responsibilities have changed. The initial idea was that I

15 might proceed to Belgrade, but this didn't happen. Then I was assigned

16 with the mandate to monitor human-rights situation in what was at that

17 time called the United Nations Protected Areas or UNPAs, and in several

18 weeks from then, certainly during the summer of 1993, I have been

19 assigned with the human rights with Bosnia.

20 Q. How many other field officers worked in Bosnia for the UN center?

21 A. At that time, it was my colleague and myself, before he left.

22 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, a little bit about how

23 you actually functioned. What did you do? How did you go about doing

24 it?

25 A. Our mandate was to facilitate the activities of the United

Page 7732

1 Nations Special Rapporteur, Tadeusz Mazowiecki, in supplying him with

2 information, with evidence, with all sorts of rough or more sophisticated

3 data about the human-rights situation in the former Yugoslavia. We have

4 received allegations of all kinds of human rights violations and we tried

5 to investigate in order to supply the Special Rapporteur with confirmed

6 information.

7 Q. You've mentioned the Special Rapporteur. Can you please tell us

8 a little bit about the relationship between the UN center field officers,

9 human-rights field officers such as yourself, and the Special Rapporteur.

10 What was the relationship?

11 A. There was no direct relationship, apart, of course, the times

12 when he himself went with the mission to the region. Otherwise, we have

13 submitted our information via the UN Center for Human Rights in Geneva.

14 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the submitting of information.

15 How did you do that? How frequently did you do that? What technical

16 means did you use to submit information? These types of issues.

17 A. The easiest part is that we have submitted it almost always by

18 fax to Geneva. We don't know how -- I don't know how this information

19 has been routed after that. In case of immediate urgency, we used to

20 call him or establish conference calls with him. Periodically, it was

21 dictated by the developments in the field, but I think that was what

22 concern my area of responsibility, Bosnia. Geneva have counted on two to

23 three reports per week, one of them sometimes brief, sometimes more

24 extensive ones.

25 Q. Can you describe for us how you actually -- you told us that you

Page 7733

1 received allegations and tried to confirm information contained in them.

2 Can you tell us how you went about doing that.

3 A. Sometimes we saw this information -- sometimes information

4 arrived to us via monitoring of the press or people called us or we read

5 about this -- about certain things in UNPROFOR regular situation reports

6 or special reports. Sometimes we saw this information actively by

7 participating in all kinds of meetings, which were quite frequent during

8 that time, inter-agency meetings in Zagreb. And we spoke to journalists,

9 who were sometimes willing to reveal more than what you could read in the

10 press. So our -- we didn't exclude no possibility. We didn't ignore any

11 information.

12 Q. How did you go about investigating the information that you

13 received from these different sources? What did you actually do?

14 A. Speaking about Bosnia, the best means to investigate was to

15 organise the field trip. If the allegation was not that serious or we

16 have some doubts about its authenticity, sometimes it was enough just to

17 call several other sources and to cross-reference it. And so at a

18 certain threshold we made a decision whether an allegation deserves a

19 field trip or it does not.

20 Q. From your arrival and assuming responsibilities for Bosnia until

21 the end of 1993, approximately how many such field trips did you make to

22 Bosnia?

23 A. I cannot recall the exact amount, because some of these trips

24 were really short ones, for a day -- it was a matter of a day or two. I

25 think -- major ones I remember, I hope, quite well. There were probably

Page 7734

1 three or four of them. By "major" I mean taking five -- from five to ten

2 days. Also, I would include accompanying the Special Rapporteur himself,

3 although it was a short trip; also the media, I think. I think I've been

4 there on a regular basis at least once a month.

5 Q. How did you actually conduct these field trips, again from a

6 technical point of view? Who went with you? Where did you access

7 vehicles and support and logistics? How did that work?

8 A. I preferred to go alone, because Bosnia was a dangerous place and

9 I was the only one responsible for Bosnia, so to the extent possible I

10 discouraged my colleagues to go with me. But of course in the field I

11 was not alone. I was accompanied either by military -- sometimes

12 protected by the military or by civil affairs officers of UNPROFOR. And

13 before going, all the details had to be processed and agreed and

14 discussed, either with civilian affairs officers or with the military

15 component of UNPROFOR.

16 Q. Throughout this period from mid-1993 through the end of 1993,

17 when you were the field officer for Bosnia, where were you actually

18 living? I understand that's a difficult term, but where were you

19 actually based?

20 A. The logistical base was in UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb. I rented an

21 apartment not far from the office. An office was just a tiny container.

22 So I spent my free time in Zagreb.

23 Q. Now, you've mentioned the logistical support that you received

24 from the civilian affairs officers or the military component of UNPROFOR.

25 Can you tell us a little bit about that structure in Bosnia and how you

Page 7735

1 were able to liaise with them and coordinate your efforts with them.

2 A. It took me some time to understand how UNPROFOR worked and how

3 its military and civilian components coordinated their activities with

4 each other. Basically, we would inform about our problems or about our

5 plans the civilian affairs on the highest possible level. We would get

6 their agreement in principle, a promise of support, and then went down

7 the administrative ladder to contact civil-affairs officers in concrete

8 localities.

9 It was basically the same with the military component. Every

10 time we went, we received adequate support but it had to be cleared

11 previously with those in military authority, in Zagreb and in locations.

12 Q. Where was the UNPROFOR headquarters that you dealt with in

13 Bosnia?

14 A. Several ones. Of course, it was obvious to contact military

15 personnel in Sarajevo when we have arrived. One of the major logistical

16 bases was in Kiseljak, BH command, and since a lot of what I had to do

17 was around Central Bosnia, the HQ of the British Battalion Vitez.

18 Q. Witness, you've mentioned BH command in Kiseljak. Can you tell

19 the Trial Chamber a little bit about what that was.

20 A. It was a big hotel, a spa, full with international and military

21 personnel from all countries, a very busy place, helicopters landing and

22 lifting every half an hour. It was used as a major logistical point

23 of -- to conduct military -- not military but UNPROFOR mandate to perform

24 mandate in all the territory of Bosnia, from Tuzla down to Mostar.

25 Q. Just to clarify. When we talk about BH command in Kiseljak, that

Page 7736

1 was UNPROFOR; is that right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. You told us earlier about the field trips that you took into

4 Bosnia from your base in Zagreb. Can you tell us about the first such

5 trip that you made, approximately when that was and what the purpose of

6 that trip was and where you went.

7 A. It was in early June 1993. The purpose of that trip was

8 basically to get myself more familiar with the area and with the people.

9 I was taken on that trip by my colleague, who was responsible for Bosnia

10 but who was supposed to leave the field operation, and it was what

11 military could qualify as a reconnaissance trip. It was supposed to be

12 so.

13 Q. And where exactly did you go on that trip, if you remember?

14 A. Our destination was British Battalion in Vitez. And we went

15 there through Sarajevo and Kiseljak.

16 Q. Do you recall any of the people that you may have met on that

17 first trip, particularly when you went to Vitez? Any of the local,

18 political, or military leaders?

19 A. At that time, we did not establish -- try to establish any

20 contact with the local, political, or military leaders. Of course, I

21 remember - and this is an unforgettable experience - the visit to the

22 British Battalion. And we also met other people, but I cannot qualify

23 them as political or military leaders.

24 Q. While you were on this first trip, did you at any time meet with

25 anyone who raised any type of allegations of human-rights violations with

Page 7737

1 you?

2 A. Yes. The next day of our arrival in Vitez, we were informed by I

3 think an officer on duty that there was someone at the gate of the base

4 with a story about a human-rights violation and a massacre was referred

5 to.

6 Q. Did you in fact meet with the individual who was at the gate?

7 A. Yes. We made on on-the-spot decision to talk to this person.

8 Q. Do you recall the name of this individual?

9 A. I remember the initials, I think BMM, but I don't think I'd

10 remember the exact name. It was Berislav or Borislav, the first name,

11 and I can't remember the second name.

12 Q. Do you recall any of the specifics about what this person told

13 you, in terms of the location of the alleged crimes and what exactly

14 happened?

15 A. I remember quite well. It was my first encounter of this type,

16 my first interview with an allegation of a major violation of

17 humanitarian law. So I remember it quite well.

18 Q. Can you please tell us what you recall from meeting with this

19 individual, what he told you about, et cetera.

20 A. He told us we were - the two of us - to conduct this interview,

21 and at that time my linguistic skills didn't -- were just rudimentary.

22 So my colleague had to translate some -- a lot of it, but not all.

23 He told us that several days ago he was a member of a group of

24 civilians and prisoners of war which had been summarily executed not far

25 from the place called Maljine.

Page 7738

1 Q. Do you recall any of the specifics as to what this individual

2 told you about who may have committed this offence?

3 A. He referred that after some fighting a group of people were

4 collected by members of the attacking Muslim forces. He was a part of

5 Croats, some of them military, some not, some wounded, some not. And he

6 continuously referred to Muslim soldiers as being the ones who did that.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you have the

8 floor.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Your Honours, I would like to draw your attention to the fact

11 that the person that the witness met is the person who has already

12 testified before this Trial Chamber. Since this is hearsay evidence,

13 there's no need for my learned friend to ask these questions, because we

14 already had the information from the witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the witness can tell

16 us that he met this person because for the time being we only have the

17 name -- the first name of that person and not the last name.

18 You may continue, Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Witness, the individual that you met with, did that person

21 provide you with any information that would be of assistance in terms of

22 conducting an investigation?

23 A. Do you mean our investigation at that time or the current

24 proceedings?

25 Q. Your investigation at that time.

Page 7739

1 A. Yes. At our request, he drew a small map of the place and marked

2 an exact location when this incident occurred.

3 Q. Can you recall any of the other information that this witness

4 provided to you at the time concerning himself?

5 A. Yes. He showed us the wounds -- not the wound itself, but one

6 small -- I don't know the word in English. The wound had been treated.

7 He did not provide a lot of background on himself personally, but he

8 insisted continuously that he was not a part of the military, that he was

9 not among those who participated in the fighting at that time.

10 Q. Witness, what if anything did you do with the information that

11 this individual provided to you?

12 A. We took our notes with us to Zagreb. We typed in a report in a

13 matter of days and submitted this report to Geneva. And kept all the

14 originals, our notes, and the map with our files in the office.

15 Q. At any subsequent time did you take up some kind of follow-up

16 action with respect to this allegation?

17 A. Yes. This has been, as I've told you, my first encounter with

18 such circumstances, and the village of Maljine has remained a

19 professional challenge to me. So I kept making inquiries wherever I

20 could about any possible additional details. I was quite consistent in

21 trying to establish the truth.

22 Q. Can you recall any of the individuals to whom you made such

23 inquiries and when, approximately?

24 A. I think every time I went to Central Bosnia I made these

25 inquiries with the relevant civilian or military personnel of UNPROFOR.

Page 7740

1 I made these inquiries with local, political, or military commanders,

2 personnel. We discussed this case with colleagues both in the office and

3 from other agencies working in the former Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Following this first field mission in June of 1993 where you were

5 in Vitez, when was the next time you were in Central Bosnia?

6 A. I could have made a couple of short trips, the details of which I

7 don't remember, apart from some major details. During one of these short

8 trips, it was possible for us to meet with Dr. Karadzic, but that was a

9 short trip. My next extensive trip was to the area was in late September

10 1993.

11 Q. Where did you go in late September 1993?

12 A. This was a complicated trip. I've covered -- I've been to

13 several locations during seven or eight days I've been on the field. I

14 think my itinerary was Sarajevo; Kiseljak; of course; Zenica; Vitez;

15 Busovaca; Travnik, including the village of Maljine; Bugojno; Gornji

16 Vakuf; Tomislavgrad; and then back to Sarajevo.

17 Q. Did you have any -- you told us earlier that you'd had meetings

18 with political and military commanders. Did you have any such meetings

19 in Zenica in late September 1993?

20 A. It's correct we've had meeting with the mayor of Zenica, I

21 can't -- or was it deputy mayor, and with the deputy commander of the 3rd

22 Corps of the BH army.

23 Q. Do you recall the name of the deputy commander of the 3rd Corps

24 of the BH army that you met?

25 A. Very well. He was introduced to us as Merdan.

Page 7741

1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what issues you discussed with

2 Merdan in late September 1993.

3 A. A lot of issues about humanitarian or military aspects which

4 might have influenced human-rights situation, and also some issues

5 regarding the ways the BH army conducted its war operations. We have

6 also discussed a little bit the issue of this allegation of mass

7 execution in Maljine.

8 Q. Can you elaborate for us a little bit about, when you say, "some

9 issues regarding the ways the BH army conducted its war operations."

10 What do you mean by that and what do you recall specifically talking

11 about?

12 A. At his own initiative, Mr. Merdan provided an expose about his

13 and his superior's efforts to build a disciplined army. It was also in

14 the relation to this issue and to my request to get access to Maljine

15 that he declined to do so, saying that BH army is a disciplined army and

16 the soldiers follow orders and they don't -- there is no need for him to

17 provide any additional written permissions. So that was more or less the

18 discussion about the ways of BH army at that time.

19 Q. I'd like to focus again a little bit on Maljine. Do you recall

20 the efforts you took with Merdan to go to Maljine?

21 A. Yes. I mentioned Maljine several times. I indicated my

22 itinerary to him, and I shared the information I had, in a sort of sketch

23 about the allegations in Maljine, and I requested permission from him

24 facilitating my possible visit to this village.

25 Q. Do you recall if Merdan responded to you in any way when you

Page 7742

1 raised the allegations about Maljine?

2 A. I do. He told me and those who accompanied me that he's aware of

3 the allegations, but nothing of this sort took place; that even if there

4 were some mass graves in the area, this would be the graves where the

5 soldiers killed in action were buried. So he totally denied even this

6 possibility of such an occurrence to take place.

7 Q. What steps did you take to gain access to Maljine, in terms of

8 discussions with Mr. Merdan?

9 A. There were not much steps to be taken. I understood that this

10 discussion was leading nowhere. So during that conversation, I dropped

11 the subject, but I contradicted him about the extent to the discipline in

12 the BH army at that time and I indicated to him cases when a written

13 permission from him had in fact been required by the soldiers at the

14 checkpoints.

15 Q. Did Mr. Merdan give you any written permission to pass through

16 the checkpoints?

17 A. Negative. No.

18 Q. And again, for clarification, why not?

19 A. The reason for his refusal to do so, as I've said, was his

20 conviction that the chain of command in BH army has been established,

21 that his subordinates follow the orders, and the order in this case would

22 be for the local commander to take a decision taking first into

23 consideration the reasons related to my safety.

24 Q. Other than Maljine and these discussions on the professionalism

25 in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what else did you discuss with Merdan?

Page 7743

1 A. We've mentioned the issue of Guca Gora, which was another --

2 which is a location not far from Maljine, and all sorts of general

3 issues. This was not a very lengthy conversation, I think. It didn't

4 last more than an hour, hour and a half. A big part of it was consumed

5 by his initial statements about the BH army, and then you also have to

6 consider the translation. So really there was not much time for any

7 detailed conversations.

8 Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Merdan tell you about foreign

9 fighters?

10 A. This issue has in fact been mentioned. I asked this question.

11 He did not deny the presence of foreign fighters, or at that time they

12 were called Mujahedin, but I referred to them as volunteers who came to

13 fight and who are fighting in his army in -- and who follow orders.

14 Q. Do you recall having any discussions with Mr. Merdan concerning

15 the civilian population in the area controlled by the 3rd Corps?

16 A. Yes. But I was not too attentive to that, because just before

17 that I had the meeting with the mayor of Zenica, and at that time a very

18 detailed briefing on the situation of the civilian population had been

19 provided to me.

20 Q. Following this meeting with Mr. Merdan in late September 1993,

21 where did you go next or where did your investigation concerning Maljine

22 take you next?

23 A. Concerning Maljine, it was in Travnik, Stari Vitez, and Maljine

24 itself.

25 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about how it came to be that you

Page 7744

1 were able to go to Maljine.

2 A. In Travnik, bypassing Vitez, we got acquainted with the deputy

3 mayor of Travnik and with Salko Beba, who was at that time deputy head of

4 the -- or maybe head of the exchange commission. There were mentioned

5 the issue of Maljine, and I think I convinced Mr. Beba to try and escort

6 me up to Maljine.

7 Q. Do you recall any of the specifics of your conversation with

8 Mr. Beba about access to Maljine, what he told you, what you asked him,

9 et cetera?

10 A. I asked him whether it would be possible to get there, because

11 from Travnik it was really very -- a very short drive. I told him about

12 my conversation with Merdan and about Mr. Merdan's reluctance to issue a

13 written permission. I think this annoyed Mr. Beba quite a lot because he

14 was of the opinion that without such a written permission this would have

15 been impossible. We also had discussed the issues of the participation

16 of foreign fighters, or Mujahedin, in the BH army, and we had discussed

17 other incidents which have allegedly occurred during the June 1993

18 offensive of the BH army.

19 Q. What if anything do you recall Mr. Beba telling you about foreign

20 fighters or Mujahedin in the BH army?

21 A. We had a conversation on this subject, and I think he told me

22 that this role of Mujahedin has evolved once they were - some of them

23 were really, came there to fight; others increasingly took an ideological

24 and indoctrination role, education role, and private soldiers with

25 ideological influence. But others, some were active fighters. And my

Page 7745

1 impression was that he was of the opinion that not all of those who

2 fought really fulfilled the orders.

3 Q. Did you on this day in September 1993 go anywhere with Mr. Salko

4 Beba?

5 A. Yes. After that meeting in Travnik, we went together to Guca

6 Gora and to Maljine.

7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you saw in Guca Gora.

8 A. In Guca Gora there was a big church or even a monastery. There

9 was not much to be seen the allegation of -- to the fact that there was a

10 detention centre did not prove correct. I did not find any evidence to

11 that. It was more or less well maintained, although there were evidence

12 of recent fighting and some desecration of religious objects. There were

13 some soldiers who looked like they were protecting the property in Guca

14 Gora.

15 Q. While you were in Guca Gora, did you see anyone else that might

16 be described as a soldier?

17 A. As a soldier, maybe not; but as a fighting element, definitely

18 yes. I got a glimpse of a car which was transporting Mujahedin.

19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about what you observed.

20 A. We were standing and talking outside of the monastery when a car

21 full of people, some of them inside, some of them outside of the car,

22 some armed, some not, sped by us. These people were wearing -- some of

23 them were wearing white fatigues, so they didn't look like normal

24 elements of the BH army. They were carrying some slogans and banners

25 with Arabic inscriptions on them.

Page 7746

1 Q. Did you discuss what you had seen with Mr. Beba?

2 A. There was not much to discuss. It was obvious to both of us that

3 these were foreign fighters, and the physical reaction of Mr. Beba

4 indicate to me that he would be unwilling to discuss this. He was

5 obviously displeased with this view.

6 Q. Can you tell us where you went after leaving Guca Gora.

7 A. After leaving Guca Gora and securing permission of the local

8 commander which was located there, we proceeded to Maljine.

9 Q. Do you recall approximately what time on this day in September

10 1993 you arrived in Maljine?

11 A. It had been four or five hours in the afternoon.

12 Q. So between 4.00 and 5.00 in the afternoon?

13 A. About 4.00 and 5.00 hours. It was a couple of hours after we

14 finished lunch, so -- but it was still daylight, so it couldn't have been

15 later than 5.00 or 4.30 in the afternoon.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what you did upon arrival in

17 Maljine on that afternoon.

18 A. After we left Guca Gora, Mr. Beba stopped showing the way, but I

19 tried to remember as well as I could the map and the drawing of -- which

20 had been provided to me in June. So we've made our way both to village

21 of Maljine and to a small hamlet of Bikosi, which was just above and

22 which had been indicated to us as the site of the mass killing.

23 Q. Were there other people present in Maljine when you arrived

24 there?

25 A. Yes. There were four, maybe five males of fighting age. I

Page 7747

1 didn't see that they were armed, but they were in camouflage and they

2 were basically hanging around.

3 Q. What, if anything, did you say to any of these people that you

4 found when you arrived in Maljine?

5 A. Not much. When I arrived in Maljine and discovered that wall, I

6 just stood there silently for several minutes and nobody asked me any

7 question. I didn't ask any question at that time. It was just after

8 some time that I asked them about the nature of the pile of fresh earth

9 which was right behind that wall.

10 Q. What, if anything, did you say about this pile of fresh earth

11 behind the wall?

12 A. Since I had doubts that this would be the mass grave - I had an

13 earlier indication that the mass grave is located elsewhere - I didn't

14 press them so hard. I just asked them what's the reason for this, for

15 this pile of earth. And the answer was that they didn't know. It was

16 earth which has been turned years ago. This pile was made years ago.

17 Q. Witness, when you said that, you smiled and chuckled a little

18 bit. Why did you have that reaction?

19 A. It was an obvious lie because it -- nothing was growing on this

20 pile of earth. So it was obvious to me that it's -- that it's several

21 days, weeks maximum.

22 Q. Did you make any additional inquiries about this pile of fresh

23 earth to the local people that you encountered?

24 A. No. I think at a certain stage during this very brief

25 conversation it became clear that my reasons for being there were clear.

Page 7748

1 And the frustration of one of - I can't call them soldiers, one of the

2 local people - with my -- what they could have interpreted as joy was

3 such that he volunteered to bring a shovel so that I start digging for

4 bodies.

5 Q. So he actually offered to give you a shovel so that you could

6 begin digging.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Approximately how long did you -- let me ask you: Did you in

9 fact conduct any type of digging or exhumation?

10 A. Of course not.

11 Q. How long did you remain in Maljine on that afternoon?

12 A. Maybe half an hour.

13 Q. Where did you go after that?

14 A. After that, if I'm not mistaken, we went further south to

15 Bugojno.

16 Q. When you say "we," who was with you at this point?

17 A. Up to the checkpoints, we've been escorted by Salko Beba and a

18 couple of his colleagues. Then we proceeded together with the civil

19 affairs, who accompanied me during this trip, civil affairs from Vitez.

20 Q. Witness, after this period in September 1993, did you have any

21 additional discussions concerning Maljine with political or military

22 leaders in Central Bosnia?

23 A. Not that I can recall.

24 Q. What steps did you take to record the information that you

25 received based on the mission?

Page 7749

1 A. As usual, after my report -- after this trip, I made a report,

2 and this was very -- quite an extensive report, at least 15 pages. There

3 were other findings -- findings to report upon -- to report on. Maljine

4 took just -- it was just a section. And this report has been submitted

5 to Geneva.

6 Q. To your knowledge, Witness, were any reports or letters based on

7 the information that you produced drafted to anyone?

8 A. Yes. As a part of this report in its concluding part, I suggest

9 that the Special Rapporteur write to the Bosnian Presidency and call his

10 attention and the attention of other authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina to

11 the allegations, sometimes quite credible allegations, about mass

12 killings which have been attributed to the Muslim army.

13 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I would ask that

14 the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 170.

15 Q. Witness, I'd ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 170,

16 and particularly the second and third page of that document. Have you

17 seen this document before?

18 A. Yes, I have seen that document before.

19 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about this document, what it is and

20 when you might have seen it.

21 A. This is a letter from the Special Rapporteur, Mr. Tadeusz

22 Mazowiecki, to the president of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 Mr. Izetbegovic, calling the attention of the president to the

24 allegations of atrocities committed in Central Bosnia. I can see that

25 Maljine is mentioned in this letter, as well as other allegations, so I

Page 7750

1 would assume that this letter -- the decision about sending this

2 letter -- my proposal might have been instrumental in appearance of this

3 letter.

4 Q. Now, Witness, you've also mentioned that you sent faxes as part

5 of your reporting data.

6 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask that the witness now be shown

7 Prosecution Exhibit 277.

8 Q. Witness, are you familiar with this document?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is.

11 A. This is a translation from the article which had been published

12 in one of major Croatian newspapers at that time, Vjesnik, and that was

13 an article about an allegation of mistreatment of Croats in the regions

14 under Muslim control in Central Bosnia.

15 Q. Who sent this information up to the UN Center for Human Rights?

16 A. At my request, this article had been translated by our local

17 translators, and I have just sent it to bring the attention of my

18 superiors in Geneva to this irresponsible journalism, and I say

19 "irresponsible," as we'd been able to verify the -- some of the facts

20 stated here did not in fact happen.

21 Q. Witness, I have just a few final questions for you. The

22 discussions that you had or any of your time at BH command in Kiseljak,

23 did you ever discuss with anyone in UNPROFOR foreign fighters in the

24 3rd Corps area of responsibility?

25 A. Yes. We've -- that was the way we operated. We discussed

Page 7751

1 everything what was on our minds with colleagues and the issue of

2 Mujahedin had continuously been mentioned in my discussions with

3 journalists, with military personnel, both of UNPROFOR and the ECMM.

4 Q. Do you remember if anyone at BH command in Kiseljak gave you any

5 documents relating to foreign fighters or Mujahedin?

6 A. I do. A document had been given to me, but it was not really in

7 the context of any discussion on Mujahedin; just my attention had been

8 drawn to a translation of kind of an instruction for Muslim soldiers.

9 Q. Do you remember who gave you this document?

10 A. I don't.

11 Q. You mentioned that it was a translation. Do you remember seeing

12 an original-language version of this document?

13 A. These were just several sheets of papers stapled together. The

14 first page was in Serbo-Croatian language, and then there was several

15 pages of English text.

16 MR. MUNDIS: With the assistance of the usher, I would ask that

17 the witness be shown the document P11, which is marked for

18 identification.

19 Q. Witness, I would ask you to briefly look through this document.

20 And you've told us that you saw certain parts of the translation of this

21 document. I would like you to see if you see the portions that you were

22 provided by BH command.

23 A. I would recall now that the names of the authors also were on the

24 page in Serbo-Croatian which I received in the BH command. The date also

25 fits, and on the second page, this -- the initial inscription in -- I

Page 7752

1 suppose in Arabic was the same. Otherwise, the printing is very

2 different. These are not the fonts which were used in BH command or also


4 Q. Do you see -- if you could briefly thumb through this document,

5 do you see those portions of this translated version that you were

6 provided with by BH command in Kiseljak?

7 A. Do I have time to go through this?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I also note the time. I know --

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Take your time.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, sir. I've found something in this

11 document which I was in those pages which were given to me, which you

12 referred to.


14 Q. Can you please tell us in the English translation, P11, marked

15 for identification, what page or pages you were provided with by

16 BH command in Kiseljak.

17 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure because it was a long time ago since I

18 was provided those pages. But I remember seeing in those pages texts,

19 paragraphs which referred to prisoners of war and to suicide.

20 Q. And again, can you --

21 A. These are pages 24 and 25.

22 Q. With respect to the information that you were shown at BH command

23 in Kiseljak relating to prisoners of war, what was your reaction upon

24 reading that information from this document?

25 A. I can't remember having any particular reaction, since the status

Page 7753

1 of these documents were not clear to me. I didn't -- it didn't look like

2 a book of orders or a code for BH army. It looked more like a religious

3 text, so there was nothing which I was concerned about in terms of my

4 work. But I remember there was a piece about a possibility to kill

5 prisoners of war if the commander decides so. And this got my attention.

6 But again, I didn't know the status of this document.

7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber why that particular provision

8 caught your attention at that time.

9 A. Because of many allegations, including Maljine, which for me has

10 ceased to be an allegation. There were reports about murder of prisoners

11 of war.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's 10.30. We'll have a

14 25-minute break, and we will resume at about 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may proceed.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 The Prosecution has completed its direct examination of the

20 witness. I would ask that Prosecution Exhibit P11 be returned from the

21 witness to the registrar. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, are you trying to

23 tell us that you wanted this document to be admitted into evidence? Do

24 you want this document to be admitted into evidence? Because for the

25 time being, it was just marked for identification. Do you want to have

Page 7754

1 this document admitted?

2 MR. MUNDIS: Not at this time, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

4 I'm going to give the floor to the Defence.

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Mr. President, I would like to go into private session for the

7 beginning of my cross-examination.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we go into

9 private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7755

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

Page 7756

1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, you were at that time offered this

3 three-months temporary contract, which was, as you mentioned to me

4 yesterday, according with the United Nations employment system, at the

5 professional level 3.

6 A. This is correct.

7 Q. Or P3, as we --

8 A. P3.

9 Q. -- commonly know.

10 You were a field officer, human rights, and this was the first

11 time that the United Nations deployed such a mission for a conflict area;

12 is that correct?

13 A. This is also correct.

14 Q. And the period you were attached to the Center for Human Rights

15 during that time was from March of 1993 until June of 1994. Now, that is

16 with the centre itself.

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. But the time you were working specifically for the mission in the

19 former Yugoslavia - that is, in Zagreb - was from May of 1993 to March of

20 1994, which includes a period of ten months.

21 A. This is correct. I'm sure your calculation is correct.

22 Q. And you mentioned to me yesterday that you did four or five major

23 missions during that time, which were about five days or more.

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And that you also completed five to six short missions of one or

Page 7757

1 two days.

2 A. I would assume it is correct. To the best of my recollection,

3 that's correct.

4 Q. And that in any event you tried to go out to the field at least

5 once a month.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And you mentioned that there were four to five of you in Zagreb

8 and that this is where you were stationed.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And that in Zagreb you, to use common language, did not have a

11 boss.

12 A. This is correct.

13 Q. Your immediate supervisor was the chief of the Special Procedures

14 Section in Geneva.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the Special Procedures Section is the office in Geneva which

17 facilitates the work of the Special Rapporteur.

18 A. Facilitated at that time. I don't know the structure of the

19 Office of the High Commissioner right now.

20 Q. And in your case, your work and your mandate was related to the

21 work of the Special Rapporteur on human rights for the former Yugoslavia,

22 and that was Mr. Tadeusz Mazowiecki.

23 A. Very much so.

24 Q. And the Office of the Special Rapporteur was actually not in

25 Zagreb or in Geneva but somewhere in Poland, and you may have mentioned

Page 7758

1 Warsaw yesterday.

2 A. Its physical location was somewhere in Poland. I would assume

3 this would be Warsaw.

4 Q. Now, the way the information went from your work up to the

5 Special Rapporteur was information taken from the field, taken to Zagreb;

6 somehow analysed in Zagreb, forwarded to Geneva to the Special Procedures

7 Section; somehow packaged and sent to the Special Rapporteur; is that a

8 fair illustration of the process?

9 A. This is a fair illustration, apart from extreme urgencies when we

10 established conferences call with the Special Rapporteur directly.

11 Q. And sometimes you had requests to look into specific events,

12 whereas on other occasions you set your own agenda.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And if you happened to write a report for the benefit of the

15 Special Rapporteur, it would not be uncommon for a two-page report to be

16 brought down to approximately two lines in the report of the Special

17 Rapporteur; but sometimes it could be the other way around.

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Geneva was the place where they -- the term you used yesterday

20 "packaged" your reports into information that could be of use to the

21 Special Rapporteur.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Now, you mentioned that the Special Rapporteur himself had a

24 clear mandate which is defined in a Security Council resolution, and that

25 is to observe and report on the human rights situation and, if so, on

Page 7759

1 human-rights violations in the former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

2 A. Again, partially. Initially this was the resolution by the UN

3 commission on human rights, which was only indirectly approved by the

4 Security Council.

5 Q. But his mandate was quite clear, in terms of what he was to focus

6 on.

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And you also mentioned in a statement you provided to the Office

9 of the Prosecution that you thought that your mandate, your personal

10 mandate, was somewhat less clear, although it was derived from the

11 mandate of the Special Rapporteur.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And you also mentioned that the work of field officers was

14 sometimes driven by events; whereas you would show up in the field,

15 something would take place, and that could modify your agenda.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And you also mentioned, Witness ZO, that the sources for

18 determining whether a field mission was necessary included the press;

19 conversations with journalists; reports from ECMM, including special

20 reports, as well as reports from the civil affairs officers; and even

21 sometimes from UNHCR.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Is that quite a thorough list of the sources you consulted to

24 make up your mind on whether a field mission would be necessary?

25 A. Correct.

Page 7760

1 Q. Now, on this basis, you proposed your own field missions which

2 were then approved by Geneva, unless, of course, there was a specific

3 requirement by the Special Rapporteur.

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. So you were kind of in a relative freedom with minimum guidance.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, before looking at the two visits that were discussed this

8 morning by my colleague from the Prosecution, I would just like to

9 confirm that when you took this job you had, of course, a background in

10 human rights, but would it be fair to say that you had no experience in

11 terms of conducting investigations?

12 A. This would be correct.

13 Q. And that at that time you had never been to Bosnia?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. And that, as you mentioned yesterday, you knew very little about

16 the conflict that was going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina or on the

17 intention or the legal status of the warring parties.

18 A. I didn't know much more than had been reported in the press and

19 other media.

20 Q. And would it be fair to say - and I take this from our discussion

21 yesterday - that in order for someone to understand what is going on in

22 Bosnia at that time, it would take a good three to four months for one

23 person focussing on the military, political, or in terms of the

24 involvement of the international community? Would that be a fair

25 statement?

Page 7761

1 A. That would be fair.

2 Q. Now, your aim in conducting field missions was not to investigate

3 as we understand the word "investigate," but it was more like

4 fact-finding to determine if human-rights violations had been committed.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. In this respect, your objective was not to determine who had

7 committed a particular violation but to gather sufficient information for

8 the benefit of the Special Rapporteur.

9 A. Sometimes this information would include indications of who would

10 be the alleged perpetrators.

11 Q. But of course that was not the aim, the purpose of your missions.

12 A. [No audible response]

13 Q. Now, if we move to your first mission in June in Central Bosnia.

14 Can you confirm, Witness ZO, that this was in fact your first field

15 mission and your first time ever in Bosnia?

16 A. I would confirm that.

17 Q. And that your aim going on this mission was to accompany another

18 field officer whose term was ending, namely, Mr. Thomas Osorio; and it

19 was also to know people and to provide you with some experience in the

20 field, because this was a first.

21 A. I can confirm that.

22 Q. Witness ZO, I must bring you back to a question where your

23 response was not recorded on the transcript, and I refer you to -- my

24 question was: But of course that was not the aim or the purpose of your

25 missions. And I was referring then to identify the identity of a

Page 7762

1 perpetrator. Can you state your answer once again.

2 A. That was not the aim of our mission.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

4 I move on to Thomas Osorio, who had developed very good contacts

5 with the British Battalion in Vitez and, namely with three individuals,

6 Colonel Stewart, who was the commander of BritBat; Randy Rhodes, who was

7 the civil-affairs officer; and Mr. Steven Wolfson, who was from the


9 A. I think I met Steven Wolfson after that June trip, and I doubt

10 very much this they are acquainted, Thomas and Steven Wolfson. Otherwise,

11 the first two individuals you mentioned were introduced to me by Thomas

12 Osorio.

13 Q. So he had got contacts with the first two, namely Colonel Stewart

14 and Randy Rhodes.

15 A. And he had much more extensive contacts, of course.

16 Q. Thank you very much, Witness ZO.

17 Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but you mentioned that there was no

18 official link between your work and the United Nations Commission of

19 Experts which was conducting field investigation at the same time with

20 the assistance of many states.

21 A. There was no such link.

22 Q. Do you recall if the findings that you made were ever

23 communicated to the United Nations Commission of Experts?

24 A. I would assume that would be a natural thing to be done by our

25 superiors and colleagues in Geneva.

Page 7763

1 Q. And can you confirm, Witness ZO, whether as a whole, if we look

2 at the individuals who were part of your office - I refer to one name,

3 Mr. Payam Akhavan, for example - that as a whole when the people of your

4 section were recruited, they were not recruited on the basis of

5 experience in the field of investigations?

6 A. I don't understand the link with Payam here. Can you rephrase or

7 please be more specific in your question, please.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO. I will try to be more precise. You

9 mentioned a little earlier that you yourself did not have a background in

10 terms of conducting investigations. If you can say, can we say -- draw

11 the same conclusion from the other members of your section, in general?

12 A. I think we have been headhunted for different reasons. All of us

13 had our strengths and our weaknesses. I've indicated mine. I don't know

14 and wouldn't like to interpret what were the considerations for hiring

15 and assigning tasks to my other colleagues.

16 Q. That's very wise and respectable of you, --

17 A. Thank you.

18 Q. -- Witness ZO.

19 If I may move to that trip in Bosnia, that is it took place in

20 the first week of June. Did it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And your itinerary at that time was from -- first from Sarajevo

23 to Vitez and you were transported by a Danish armoured personnel carrier;

24 and from -- sorry, to Kiseljak and from Kiseljak to Vitez you were

25 transported by a British Warrior with BritBat and you arrived there late

Page 7764

1 at night.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And that night you mentioned that you went to the mess, that is,

4 the officers' mess, and that you met with those who had access to those

5 premises within the British Battalion.

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now, I understand, Witness ZO, or I'm not -- I don't know if you

8 have a military background, but can you confirm that the mess or the

9 officers' mess, from what you saw or from what you know, was kind of a

10 social club for officers where people have a drink and exchange their war

11 stories for the day in a relaxed atmosphere?

12 A. You're right about me not having a military background. You are

13 also right about my impression of what the officers mess at the British

14 Battalion was at that time.

15 Q. Now, before you went on this mission, Witness ZO, you mentioned

16 that you had some information on a potential human rights violations in

17 Guca Gora and Maljine; is that correct?

18 A. It is correct.

19 Q. And you also mentioned that you had no other information on any

20 other potential human-rights violations which could have been committed

21 in other towns.

22 A. I don't remember, maybe because Maljine and Guca Gora were these

23 two locations which kept being discussed in the days which followed

24 this -- the planning of this trip.

25 Q. Now, you knew about the massacre in Ahmici, but correct me if I'm

Page 7765

1 wrong, but you were not aware of events such as what took place in Bandol

2 or in Velika Bukovica, for example.

3 A. The names of these locations don't seem -- don't sound familiar

4 to me.

5 Q. And if in the reports which were accessible to you in Zagreb some

6 events were mentioned of other violations, then it would have been your

7 decision to focus on Maljine and not on something else.

8 A. I would like to repeat that the purpose of this first trip was

9 just a reconnaissance, to get to know people, to get people to know me.

10 This was not planned as a fact-finding mission.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

12 Now, when you met the BritBat personnel initially, there was

13 limited time for them to brief you. And if I quote you correctly, Thomas

14 Osorio did most of the talking and of the arrangements.

15 A. I think that we've spent not more than one hour maximum. It may

16 even be 40 minutes in the mess, and then some sleeping arrangements were

17 made. Thomas might have stayed a little bit later, but I went to bed

18 rather -- not early, but earlier than Thomas.

19 Q. So more importantly, what BritBat -- or what you could obtain

20 from the British Battalion was a feel for the military situation in order

21 for you to know where you could and where you could not go. And this was

22 done by both you and Thomas Osorio or just by Thomas Osorio?

23 A. I think it didn't even went to that stage in the briefing when we

24 would receive advice where we could go or where we couldn't go. It was

25 maybe just a general assessment of recent and current military aspects of

Page 7766

1 the picture in the field in Central Bosnia.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned that initially the issue of violations of

3 human rights was not discussed with personnel from BritBat.

4 A. Definitely not during that first evening.

5 Q. Now, maybe it's a mistake or maybe it's a question of memory, but

6 I would just like to refer to you, Witness ZO, to the report you prepared

7 when you returned to Zagreb after your first trip. And this report

8 basically states -- let me just find it. I have lots of paper here. I

9 had almost everything ready, but my colleague caught me off surprise by

10 closing his examination-in-chief five minutes too early.

11 If I may just report to this statement that you -- or this report

12 which you completed in Zagreb in which you mentioned that in Kiseljak you

13 were actually given a communique by someone related to the leadership of

14 Croatia and the leadership of Herceg-Bosna and which was also addressed

15 to the HINA news agency about allegations of a mass execution and that

16 this was given to you by the civil affairs officer. Do you recall this

17 at all?

18 A. I don't recall this at all, but I don't exclude that while we

19 were at Kiseljak and, again, being introduced to people, I could have

20 been given some materials.

21 Q. And I just read from that background information which was

22 provided to us, and it says here: "The allegation of a mass execution

23 reached us at BH command HQ on 11 June. Civil affairs received by telex

24 a communique." And it talks about leadership of Croatia and

25 Herceg-Bosna, HVO command, and HINA news agency; and that the same night

Page 7767

1 when you arrived at British Battalion, "it was explained to us that a man

2 from Maljine now staying in Vitez with some connections to the local HDZ

3 leadership delivered the text of the communique to the gate on Thursday,

4 the 10th of June."

5 Is that -- do you recall these events at all?

6 A. I recall this being a part of mine and Thomas's report.

7 Q. And the events themselves, you don't recall -- or could it be

8 that it is Mr. Osorio who received these things or ...?

9 A. It could have been. And the report I think was the report which

10 was drafted together by two of us, so the two of us contributed to the

11 drafting of this report, and I can't really remember how we shared the

12 labour.

13 Q. Now, the next day, Witness ZO, a man called Niko came to the gate

14 and he wanted to see you, and he promised that he would return with two

15 victims of this alleged event, and he actually came back an hour and a

16 half later with the person which you actually proceeded to interview.

17 A. At this stage, I doubt that this man called Niko wanted to see me

18 or us, and Thomas, because I doubt that he would have any sort of

19 information that we were in the compounds of the British Battalion.

20 Maybe he wanted to see anybody from civil affairs and it happened that

21 two human rights field officers were on the spot, a coincidence.

22 Q. But you did have a conversation with a gentleman called Niko, who

23 introduced you to the person you interviewed.

24 A. I don't recall being in any contact with anybody except that

25 gentleman. Thomas might have been in contact with the man called Niko.

Page 7768

1 I don't think that I was present. If it happened, I was not present.

2 Q. Witness ZO, I mean, I perfectly understand that these things took

3 place ten years ago, but the report says that on June 12th "Niko at 10.00

4 at his own initiative came to the gate and we talked to him. He promised

5 that he will return with both witnesses mentioned in the communique in

6 order to be interviewed by us. He returned after 1.5 hours with one of

7 the witnesses. The second witness was impossible to be found. And we

8 interviewed him for one hour."

9 Is that -- could things have developed in this way?

10 A. They could. When in this report you see "us" or "we" it would

11 not necessarily mean that we were doing everything in -- at the same

12 time. So my memory -- first, my memory might fail me, because it was 11

13 years ago; and second, an explanation might be that Thomas did the

14 conversation. But since we both were signing for the report, it would be

15 natural for us to refer to "us" as a team.

16 Q. Now, this gentleman, Niko, do you remember him at all?

17 A. No.

18 Q. But you do remember the communique.

19 A. The communique --

20 Q. Which was -- which came from the leadership of the HDZ and which

21 talked about these allegations.

22 A. I do remember some papers which were given to us in Kiseljak. I

23 don't remember in which language they were. During this first day or two

24 in the field, I really had to rely a lot on my more experienced colleague

25 to sort through the things and to sort through our priorities.

Page 7769

1 Q. But could you confirm, Witness ZO, that as a matter of fact this

2 interview that you conducted that day was not a planned event, that it

3 happened on the ground, and that it was triggered by this communique from

4 someone affiliated to the HVO?

5 A. Could you please repeat your question or rephrase it, because

6 this would seem to be as interpretation of events for me and I would

7 rather be reluctant to interpret something which I vaguely remember

8 happened 11 years ago.

9 Q. Thank you very much. And I have no problems whatsoever in maybe

10 breaking down the question.

11 Would you agree that this interview was not a planned event?

12 A. Absolutely.

13 Q. And it happened as a result of the communique.

14 A. Of this I am not sure.

15 Q. And if it did happen as a result of the communique, because you

16 don't remember, you knew that this communique came from people affiliated

17 to the leadership of the HDZ, the HVO command -- or the HVO command.

18 A. At that time, I had certain difficulty in understanding the

19 difference between "HVO" and "HDZ," so I was very fresh in the field. I

20 don't exclude that this could have been a planned action, but nothing had

21 at that time caught my attention that it could have been an

22 artificially-staged incident.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

24 Now, during this interview, you mentioned that you took some

25 notes but that it was difficult to get everything due to the language

Page 7770

1 issue, because Thomas Osorio spoke Bosnian or B/C/S very well and there

2 was no interpreters and you spoke Russian, English, French, but a little

3 bit of B/C/S. Would that be a fair statement?

4 A. I didn't speak B/C/S at all at that time. Some words I could

5 understand. French and Russian was never employed during this interview

6 or my subsequent interviews. Thomas did a lot of talking, translated

7 some of his questions and some of the answers. Sometimes I would put a

8 question which Thomas would translate, and translate the answer back to

9 me.

10 Q. Now, Witness ZO, can you confirm that this was a difficult moment

11 for you since it was the first time that you were interviewing a witness

12 talking about some very bad events?

13 A. I can confirm that.

14 Q. In any event, your report that I referred to was drafted in

15 Zagreb and both you and Thomas Osorio did it together.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And the report is the sum of both of your observations.

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Now, yesterday we also discussed the fact that how many witnesses

20 you had referred to or you had had contact with, and your answer today

21 was similar as what you informed me yesterday, and that there was only

22 one witness statement that you had consulted.

23 A. Are you referring to this particular incident --

24 Q. Yes?

25 A. -- Maljine?

Page 7771

1 At that time, yes, it was just one eyewitness to the incident

2 that I've consulted.

3 Q. Now, I would just like to refer to -- again, the notes compiled

4 by you and Thomas Osorio, where it says that -- and it says:

5 "Immediately before the soldiers opened fire, a loud cry was heard. In

6 this, the witness testimony differs from another one, (redacted), see below,

7 told that the prisoners were lined up against the fence and that the

8 shooting started upon explicit command."

9 When, if ever, did you meet witness (redacted)?

10 A. I can't remember talking to a witness called (redacted) or to anybody

11 else who would present him or herself as an eyewitness to this incident.

12 Q. So the information -- did you receive any information, any

13 statement or report by witness (redacted)?

14 A. I can't remember. Thomas though might have had some separate

15 information obtained from elsewhere.

16 Q. Now, during that first interview, I would like to confirm that

17 what my colleague referred to, and that was that a map was -- or a sketch

18 was done. I would like to show you a sketch. And I have sufficient

19 copies for everyone.

20 Witness ZO, do you recognise this sketch? I don't know if you

21 were shown your statement by my colleague, but do you recognise this

22 sketch?

23 A. It's the first time I see it in -- after 11 years. I recognise

24 it. That's the sketch which had been sketched in front of us. In front

25 of me and Thomas.

Page 7772

1 Q. Now, this sketch, Witness ZO, was taken back with you to Zagreb,

2 but is it possible that it was left behind as an indication to Randy

3 Rhodes or to someone else within the British Battalion?

4 A. The original, I'm sure, had been taken back to Zagreb. A copy of

5 an indication could have been left with the British Battalion.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like this

8 document to be admitted, because it was recognised by the witness. This

9 sketch was given to him by the person that he interviewed with regard to

10 the events in Maljine.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have an

14 exhibit number, please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH177.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, concerning this interview with this

18 witness, I would just like to recall some of the events as they were

19 mentioned to you by him, if you recall, Witness ZO, that there were

20 Mr. Berislav or Marjanovic -- do you recall this name?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Was escorted by 80 to 100 soldiers and he met a group of 18

23 prisoners of war, one of which -- one of whom was injured.

24 A. I remember that this was his story.

25 Q. And he mentioned to you that the prisoner of war were guarded by

Page 7773

1 people who were wearing masks and that did not speak the language and

2 that they were dressed both in civilian and military clothes.

3 A. As far as I remember, that was what has been told -- what we've

4 been told.

5 Q. And that the person who was wearing a mask selected 18 from his

6 group including Marjanovic, and told them to join the group of prisoners

7 of war.

8 A. Correct. That's my recollection about this interview -- or

9 coincide with what you're telling -- with what you're saying.

10 Q. And that these people who were selected, according to the notes I

11 have, were 12 males of a young age -- or 12 fit males.

12 A. I'm sure that you're reading our report correctly.

13 Q. And that he said that when they were taken out by the people

14 wearing those masks, he heard a loud cry. Then somehow they opened fire.

15 He was shot in the leg and he escaped.

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Is that basically what he told you?

18 A. That's basically the story.

19 Q. Now, this (redacted) that you don't know about, are you aware that he

20 had a different story?

21 A. I'm not aware about that.

22 Q. Now, at that time you did not take any further action with

23 respect to this incident, after the interview.

24 A. Apart from filing our report to Geneva, not any immediate action

25 had been taken.

Page 7774

1 Q. You did not go and see 3 Corps.

2 A. No.

3 Q. In fact, you -- maybe you did not even know it was 3 Corps. You

4 knew that maybe they were a Muslim army but not 3 Corps.

5 A. You're very much correct in assessing the level of my competence

6 at that time.

7 Q. And back in Zagreb more information came in which led you to

8 believe that maybe something really happened.

9 A. We have shared our opinions with Thomas after that interview, and

10 our conclusion was that that witness was trustworthy, so any additional

11 information which we received in Zagreb added to the primary information

12 which we received, and that was the eyewitness's testimony.

13 Q. Now, in this report that was given to us as part of background

14 information, at the end there is a Note 1, which reads: "In addition to

15 our previous note, we would like to suggest that in view of the fact that

16 local HDZ and HVO people messed up with the alleged execution and since

17 considerable time has elapsed since then, the most reliable way to verify

18 the testimony would be to interview those civilians who were in the first

19 group escorted from Maljine, and who might have witnessed the moment of

20 selection of the 12 men to join the group of prisoners of war. There are

21 indications of where these persons might be."

22 Do you recall this note being added to your report?

23 A. I recall now.

24 Q. Would you agree with me that this means that there was actually a

25 second report drawn about the same incident?

Page 7775

1 A. The way I would read that report is that we suggested some

2 follow-up action, but I cannot recall whether this suggestion and

3 proposal of ours had in fact been followed up.

4 Q. And you did not follow up yourself with interviewing those

5 people, or you don't know of anyone who did so.

6 A. No, we did not ourselves didn't try to trace them, and I don't

7 know of any attempt by anybody to do so.

8 Q. Now, in Zagreb, you also received more information. And I'd like

9 to refer you to also another piece of information which was given to us

10 as background information, and this is another witness testimony. It's

11 dated 26th of June, and it says: "Please find enclosed a tape on which

12 was recorded the testimony of an eyewitness of a war crime in Maljine.

13 Also enclosed is a summary of the statement prepared by" -- I will not

14 mention the name -- "MP at BH command who heard the witness on 25 June."

15 Do you recall receiving this information?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And do you recall that in this information was also a different

18 story from the first two you had received?

19 A. I don't recall differences.

20 Q. And is it possible that this man here actually mentioned to you

21 that he tried to escape and that when trying to escape, that's when fire

22 was opened?

23 A. I don't recall that.

24 Q. Now, this -- actually, this statement here also contains -- and I

25 think I will -- I should maybe show it to you, with the consent of my

Page 7776

1 colleague. I don't intend to produce it, but it is background

2 information that was given to us. With the consent of the Chamber and of

3 my colleague, I would like to show it to you, because it says here that

4 after -- well, at least that this witness says that the people who were

5 dead were picked up in a truck and taken away. I just read this quote,

6 and I will maybe show you the document, where it says here:

7 "The people who were killed, what did they do with them? Are

8 they still over there? Are they buried?

9 Answer: I don't know exactly. I don't know exactly what

10 happened. Those which were on execution came with a truck to take them.

11 But where they take them, I do not know. And what did they do with them,

12 I do not know anything."

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you agree, we

14 could place this document on the ELMO in order to be able to see the

15 relevant paragraph in this declaration.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: With your leave, and perhaps in light of the

18 suggestion by Mr. Bourgon, if I could just see document before it's

19 placed on the ELMO, I would appreciate it.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. BOURGON: If I may ask the -- the usher just to raise the

22 document a bit further up so we can see the question where it says: "The

23 people who were killed."

24 [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like the inform you that

25 the highlighted parts were highlighted by myself.

Page 7777

1 [In English] "What did they do with them? Are they still over

2 there? Are they buried?"

3 [Interpretation] And then the answer appears.

4 [In English] May I ask the usher to take the document away,

5 please.

6 [Interpretation] With your leave, Mr. President.

7 Q. [In English] Do you remember reading this statement? Because

8 this was part of the package that was sent to Thomas Osorio on the 26th

9 of June. Did you ever see this statement?

10 A. I cannot remember receiving and reading this statement.

11 Q. You cannot?

12 A. I cannot.

13 Q. Let's move on quickly, Witness ZO. On 6th of July, you had a

14 conversation with an ECMM monitor called Mr. Huet. Mr. Huet was an ECMM

15 monitor in Zenica from May to June of 1993 and you had a meeting with him

16 in Zagreb on the 6th of July. Do you recall this meeting?

17 A. I don't.

18 MR. BOURGON: [Microphone not activated]

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could the usher

21 distribute a document that I would like to show the witness. The date of

22 the document is the 6th of July, 1993.

23 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, may I ask you to take a look at this

24 document and tell me if you recognise it.

25 A. It should be my report to Geneva. I sent about -- lots of them,

Page 7778

1 and this would seem like my style. So I would recognise this as my

2 document, as my report.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Now, you go on to describe the way he talked about the operation,

10 and he mentions in this document what happens in what town. And then

11 there's a comment from yourself at the end of the second paragraph, where

12 you say: "Still judging by the information he obtained on killings and

13 allegations on other villages, a number of inhabitants, mainly males of

14 the affected villages, were summarily executed."

15 Was that from him or from you?

16 A. Let me read this phrase again, and I will come up with my answer.

17 I think this is something which is attributable to him. My -- as

18 a general rule, I tried to indicate my opinions, my proposals, to be

19 very -- I tried to be very specific when it's something which is

20 attributable to me as an author of this document. I don't see such an

21 attribution here, so I think this is something which Mr. Huet told me,

22 and that's his assumption.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7779

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. Of course.

4 Q. Now, if I mention to you, Witness ZO, that --

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it might be

7 necessary to correct part of the transcript because one of these

8 witnesses is a protected witness. So it might be necessary to redact

9 part of the transcript.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Mr. Registrar, could you prepare an order to redact from line 62

12 and 63 references made to the person mentioned in the document.

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, looking at this document, if I tell you

15 that the two persons mentioned on this document actually testified before

16 this Trial Chamber and never mentioned anything about these murders,

17 would that indicate to you that the information, for whatever reason

18 provided to you, was not reliable?

19 A. It would be an interpretation, and what I would hold myself

20 responsible for is the accuracy of this report on the conversation of --

21 my conversation with Mr. Huet. About the accuracy of his conversations,

22 of his findings, I would not hold myself responsible for.

23 Q. And just one last question on this document, Witness ZO: The

24 fact that Mr. Huet informed you that his estimation is that there was

25 1.000 Mujahedin from Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan between Zenica and

Page 7780

1 Travnik, do you recall this information?

2 A. If it's here, it has been provided to me.

3 Q. Would that be the type of information that would trigger in you

4 something that -- a need to go further, because the word "Mujahedin" was

5 mentioned and the number "1.000" was mentioned?

6 A. Not really.

7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

8 tender this document into evidence. The witness has recognised the

9 document, or at least the contents of the document. This document should

10 be tendered confidentially, under seal, given the nature of its contents.

11 This is a document that we obtained via electronic disclosure from the

12 Prosecution. And in this case we believe, Mr. President, that it is a

13 document referred to in Rule 68 - at least that is our interpretation in

14 Rule 68 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. And it is a document

15 that wasn't provided to the Defence -- it wasn't forwarded to the

16 Defence. After the completion of this witness's testimony, I would like

17 address the Chamber about this matter. For the moment, I would like to

18 request an exhibit number for this document.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

20 Mr. Mundis, the Defence is requesting that this document be

21 tendered into evidence. It obtained the document through electronic

22 means. The witness has authenticated this document, has recognised this

23 document. What is your position?

24 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 7781

1 Mr. Registrar, could we have an exhibit number under seal, a

2 definitive exhibit number.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be DH178,

5 under seal.

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, I would like to ask you whether on the

8 20th of July is the date at which you sent your report to Geneva which

9 included the newspaper article from Zagreb, which was shown to you

10 earlier, and that was Exhibit P277. This mentions 20 July. I would like

11 if you can confirm that this is the date that -- at which you sent the

12 document to Geneva.

13 A. I don't have it before me any more. If the document is dated --

14 and it's not a typographic mistake, then I think that is the date when

15 the report has been sent.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness document

17 P277.

18 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, do you now have the document which is

19 P277?

20 A. I don't see the number P277 -- yes, now I have it. Now I've seen

21 the number P277. This is the document, that's the report we've just been

22 discussing.

23 Q. Can I ask you with the help of the usher to put this document, at

24 least the first page, on the ELMO, please.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 7782

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's a problem as far as

2 this document is concerned. It might reveal someone's identity, so we

3 would not like it to be placed on the ELMO.

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, that was

5 my mistake. I should have thought of that.

6 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, can you look at this document which

7 includes the newspaper article which you forwarded to Zagreb -- sorry, to

8 Geneva. Am I correct?

9 A. This document includes a translation of the newspaper article,

10 which in fact has been forwarded from Zagreb to Geneva.

11 Q. I would ask, Witness ZO, that you turn to the page of the

12 document, looking at the bottom numbers, and this document -- the last --

13 the before-last page, and that is page 00124599.

14 A. In my case, this is the last page of the document I'm looking at.

15 Q. The last page of the document in English.

16 Can you, with the help of the usher, put this page on the ELMO,

17 given that there are no information on this page that can identify.

18 Witness ZO, can you confirm that this page, there is a report

19 about a shooting statement on Bikosi and that is a statement that was

20 given on the 19th of June by an eyewitness to the shooting? Can you --

21 A. The way it reads, you're absolutely correct.

22 Q. Can you confirm at the last line, where it says that "this

23 statement was received by a representative of the HDZ in the

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina" or -- no, sorry -- "by a representative of the HDZ."

25 A. That's what I see in front of me on the monitor.

Page 7783

1 Q. And would you agree with me that this is a fourth statement

2 concerning this incident which also has a different story to it than the

3 first three that we mentioned this morning?

4 A. What I see on the screen in front of me does not contradict the

5 general line of the story as it had been told to me and to my colleague

6 in the beginning of June in Vitez.

7 Q. And the general line is the same --

8 A. I see no contradictions here.

9 Q. And this is the fourth -- you would agree that this is the fourth

10 statement that we look at together, even though the last one you did not

11 recognise.

12 A. I'm starting to get confused. The last one. Before that, we'd

13 been discussing the reports --

14 Q. -- Is the one that was sent on the 26th of June to Thomas Osorio

15 by BH command.

16 A. I think the last document we discussed was the report on my

17 meeting with Mr. Huet.

18 Q. Yes. Sorry. I'm referring to in terms of on this incident in

19 Maljine.

20 A. Mm-hm.

21 Q. We showed you first, we discussed the statement based on your

22 notes with a Mr. Marjanovic, and we discussed something concerning a

23 witness (redacted).Then we discussed something concerning a witness which was

24 interviewed at BH command, and this one you did not recall.

25 A. I did not recall that one, correct.

Page 7784

1 Q. And now we're speaking about a fourth, at least, recollection of

2 the events in Maljine.

3 A. Mm-hm.

4 Q. Can you agree that the four have the same general line but there

5 are differences in the four?

6 A. I would rather say that there is -- I would rather repeat what

7 I've said, that there is nothing in this -- in what I've seen in front of

8 me which would contradict the story which had been told to us by the

9 eyewitness to the killing.

10 I would like also to stipulate one thing: This is the

11 translation from an article which had been published in Vjesnik. So this

12 is not a testimony which one of my colleagues took from anybody. This is

13 just a translation from the article, and I had some experiences in the

14 field when newspapers exaggerated or underreported the facts.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

16 Now, can you confirm when you received this information? Because

17 you sent it to Geneva.

18 A. Mm-hm.

19 Q. So when did you receive this information?

20 A. When did I receive it?

21 Q. Can you confirm when or under what occasion you received this

22 information?

23 A. This is easy, because the article is dated 19 July 1993.

24 Q. Do you remember the person or the organisation which provided you

25 with this statement?

Page 7785

1 A. This is not the statement. Again, this is the article in the

2 newspaper. I think we received -- we subscribed to many local

3 newspapers, including Vjesnik, and our -- a number of our local staff

4 was responsible for looking through them and for calling our attention to

5 something which we should rather be informed about.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO. I'm sorry about my referring to a

7 statement. It's just because if you look at -- under the heading

8 "Shooting statement in Bikosi," that's why I referred to the word

9 "statement." But I agree with you, it's just a recollection. And this

10 was actually published in the paper and given to you by some media

11 person.

12 A. No. This was published in the paper and was given to me and to

13 my colleagues by our local staff who was responsible for monitoring of

14 local press.

15 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

16 Now, if we look at this specific statement once again for one

17 quick look. If we look at the first line where it says: "In the village

18 of Bikosi beside Guca Gora on 8 June 1993 in the morning they were

19 captured by the army and -- beside Maljine and were taken to a detention

20 centre in Mehurici."

21 Now: "On their way they were intercepted by Mujahedin or

22 Mujahed who separated all young persons and returned them back to

23 Bikosi."

24 Do you agree that this confirms yet again that Mujahedins are

25 those who separated the group and who took them up to Bikosi?

Page 7786

1 A. There is nothing in this translation of this article which I

2 would like to confirm or challenge. This is a translation, again, which

3 was not done by a professional translator. It was our secretary. The

4 way it reads, I think you are correct in interpreting what is being read.

5 But then again, I would rather not interpret a translation of an article.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness ZO.

7 Could you confirm, however, that the four recollections of the

8 events in Maljine that we discussed this morning talked about the

9 involvement of Mujahedin taking people up to Bikosi?

10 A. This I can confirm, yes.

11 Q. Now, in this report also, Witness ZO, the main part of the

12 article refers to an article in Vjesnik - I'm not sure if my

13 pronunciation is right - but it includes a report apparently given to

14 this paper by the Christian Information Service. I refer you to the

15 second page at the first line, where it says: "Some 70 lives beyond

16 redemption," and then the first paragraph.

17 Did you, Witness ZO, have any contacts or any information which

18 was provided to you by the Christian Information Service?

19 A. I cannot recall such thing.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, again I have made a

25 mistake. I don't know which of the two names that I've just mentioned --

Page 7787

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can this name be

2 redacted from the transcript.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Sorry. I think the document should be taken off the

13 ELMO.

14 Q. It is not necessary to have the document on the ELMO. I just ask

15 you to look at it in this paragraph.

16 The only question I want to ask you with this is: You recognise

17 that this is a report, or at least what it appears to be, concerning an

18 investigation in the villages of the Brajkovici parish. Can you confirm

19 that you never received the real report?

20 A. I can confirm that.

21 Q. Can you confirm that you did not speak to any members of this

22 commission?

23 A. I can't remember speaking to any member of this commission.

24 Q. Can you confirm that this report was, at least according to

25 information we have, was drafted by a Bosnian of Croat origin only?

Page 7788

1 A. No, I cannot confirm that.

2 Q. So you are not able to check whether by reading a name you could

3 see whether someone was a Bosnian Muslim or a Bosnian Croat?

4 A. No. I lack this skill.

5 Q. But is it something that could have been important for you in

6 treating this document, to know that this report was done only by Bosnian

7 Croats and not with any Bosnian Muslim? Could that be a factor?

8 A. That could have been a factor.

9 Q. And do you recognise the two members of this commission which

10 were referred to you by the ECMM monitor from Zenica, Mr. Huet, and that

11 you now know that both of these persons testified before this Chamber?

12 You recognise those two names?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you did not speak to them.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Now, you did not go back on this topic to Mr. Huet from the ECMM,

17 did you?

18 A. No, I don't think I did.

19 Q. And you sent a document to Geneva, and I ask you to refer to the

20 first page where it appears that someone who received this document in

21 Geneva on the 20th of July said: "It looks like a propaganda and

22 information branch of Catholic Church here."

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7789

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. And then the other comment below, where it says that "On 22 July

6 he called back and said it was a reliable source on previous incidents."

7 Do you also recognise this comment?

8 A. No. Seemingly this was a comment which was made by someone in

9 Geneva.

10 Q. So you don't know who "MF" is.

11 A. I have a guess, a colleague with initials of MF. There was such

12 colleague.

13 Q. Would be in Geneva.

14 A. Would be in Geneva at that time.

15 Q. So who was he referring to when he was saying "he," if the

16 drafter of this document is yourself?

17 A. This would be an interpretation.

18 Q. In terms of -- is it possible that when he was saying "he called

19 back," is it possible, given that you are the drafter of this document,

20 that he was referring to you?

21 A. It is possible.

22 Q. And do you recall calling in Geneva and saying that this was

23 indeed a reliable source on previous incidents?

24 A. I do not.

25 Q. And in fact you confirm what you said to my colleague this

Page 7790

1 morning that you thought that this specific piece of newspaper was

2 irresponsible?

3 A. I think I was referring to this article, maybe not, because I

4 remember sending another translation of another article in Vjesnik, which

5 referred to another incident which was completely unfounded. I think

6 that was a different article.

7 Q. Now, if I refer quickly, Witness ZO, to one of your reports that

8 we were given, where you state something concerning Croatian media.

9 A. Mm-hm. [Defence counsel confer]


11 Q. I will, Witness ZO, simply read to you what is in your -- in one

12 of your reports that we have, where it is mentioned, paragraph 2: "The

13 instigatory role of the Croatian press needs to be studied and condemned.

14 Absolutely unfounded reports of Vjesnik, not speaking of a less reputable

15 media about public hangings in Zenica or of the ratio of distribution of

16 food as 3 to 1 in favour of Muslims call an ordinary brain-washed Croat,

17 especially from Herceg-Bosna, to revenge. This is at least an

18 irresponsible journalism and it can also be qualified as incitement of

19 hatred and provocation."

20 Would you recognise these words as being yours?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Now, one last question with respect to this specific incident:

23 There was a -- you are not aware, or correct me if you are aware, that

24 while this investigation which you were made aware of by the newspaper,

25 you did not request any information nor obtain any concerning a real

Page 7791

1 investigation which was triggered and which involved investigating judge,

2 members of the 3rd Corps of the army, and other people, and that a real

3 investigation was conducted into these allegations or part of these

4 allegations? Do you recall any of this?

5 A. I don't recall having been informed at any stage about what you

6 refer as "real investigation."

7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like

8 to inform you that the document in question - and this is for the sake of

9 the transcript --

10 [Defence counsel and registrar confer]

11 MR. BOURGON: [Microphone not activated]

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, let me go on. But first I just need to

18 clarify something.

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am told that I

20 have miscalculated and that we have used up our time. I think my

21 colleague used up an hour and 30, so I thought I had 2 hours and 15

22 minutes for both Defence teams. I need another 45 minutes, in fact,

23 Mr. President. I thought I would need 2 hours and that I would leave my

24 colleagues 15 minutes. It's an error I made. I thought my colleague had

25 taken an hour and a half, but that was my mistake, Mr. President.

Page 7792

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] How much time would the other

2 Defence team need?

3 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we would only need a short time, no

4 longer than five minutes, if at all.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So as you have

6 said, you've used up more time than you had. We need to make our second

7 break now, and we'll resume at five to 1.00. In the meantime, we will

8 make a few calculations and tell you how much time you still have.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Before we give the floor

13 to Defence, there are two minor issues I would like to raise.

14 According to the calculations we have made, Mr. Bourgon, you have

15 30 minutes and not 45. This is necessary in particular in order to be

16 able to adjourn at the time scheduled.

17 And the second issue I would like to mention is you mentioned

18 document DH156, which concerns a report on events that took place in

19 Susanj and Ovnak, and you gave us the impression that the report concerns

20 Maljine. This concerns page 2 and Maljine is not concerned. The Trial

21 Chamber would like to say that this document doesn't concern the events

22 that occurred in Maljine but only those that occurred in Susanj, and the

23 events in Susanj have been referred to in the press article that were

24 translated and sent to Geneva by the witness.

25 Having said that, you may take the floor for the 30 minutes that

Page 7793

1 you still have.

2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 If I gave the Trial Chamber the impression that my remarks

4 concerned the document mentioned and that they concerned Maljine, I

5 apologise. My purpose was to establish a link between the investigation

6 carried out in Susanj which was an official one, and to compare it with

7 an investigation carried out by an unknown commission which was composed

8 of Bosnian Croats and was also published in the media. This is what I

9 wanted to say.

10 Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. [In English] Witness ZO, we have 30 minutes left, and I would

12 like to focus on some specific question. Could you confirm that when we

13 had our conversation yesterday you mentioned that there was -- it was

14 common to receive allegations of atrocities; that in fact you were

15 receiving such allegations to the rate of almost two per day?

16 A. During the periods where fighting was especially active, yes,

17 that sometimes was the case. Allegations came at this rate.

18 Q. Thank you. And can you confirm that very often those allegation

19 proved to be not true?

20 A. I can confirm that.

21 Q. And if I give you just one example in which you were personally

22 involved. There was an allegation of a public hanging of Bosnian Croats

23 in front of the Catholic church in Zenica. You were able to confirm,

24 both from Father Stipan and the mayor of Zenica, that this event actually

25 never took place.

Page 7794

1 A. I can confirm that.

2 Q. I would like to provide you with some documents which I can --

3 which we will look at together for the remainder of the time of my

4 cross-examination. I have two documents, one which includes six

5 documents put together.

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] We have two documents,

7 Mr. President. The first one is a single document dated the 17th of

8 August, 1993, and the second one is a bundle of seven documents, and we

9 have numbered the documents from 1 to 7. We have copies for the Judges

10 and for the witness, and these copies have been numbered.

11 [In English] Can I ensure that the witness has received one of

12 the copies with the tabs so that we can proceed more quickly.

13 Q. Witness ZO, I would like to refer you to the single document

14 which you have received. This is a memorandum addressed to

15 Mr. Stoltenberg, who is the special representative of the

16 Secretary-General, from the senior officer on humanitarian affairs. And

17 the subject is "Your inquiry on 16th August regarding alleged BiH

18 atrocities against Croat population."

19 Can you confirm, Witness ZO, that this is one of the documents

20 which you forwarded to Zenica -- sorry, to Geneva as part of your report

21 on 7 October?

22 A. I can confirm that.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

24 tender this document into evidence at -- a little later. The witness has

25 recognised this document. He said that he received it and he forwarded

Page 7795

1 it to Geneva.

2 Q. [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... Witness ZO, to

3 paragraph 2, where it is said: "It appears that Mr. Boban's claim is at

4 least on some account inaccurate and that UNHCR is aware of only one case

5 of massacre of four Croats in April in Miletici, which was believed to

6 have been done by foreign elements. UNHCR is inclined to believe that

7 although looting and burning of houses do occur, it is not likely that

8 the BiH army has committed extreme atrocities against Croat civilians, as

9 claimed by Mr. Boban."

10 Do you recall having read these comments?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Thank you. Let me move on, Witness ZO, with the second trip you

13 made to Central Bosnia, and you mentioned to me yesterday that this was

14 from the 23rd to the 25th of September and that the aim of this trip was

15 to observe the situation in several places including Zenica, Stari Vitez,

16 Travnik and of course Maljine. Can you confirm this?

17 A. I can confirm that, although the trip was in fact longer, but in

18 the central -- in the area of the Lasva Valley, I stayed for two or three

19 days in fact.

20 Q. And can you confirm that on the 23rd of September you had

21 meetings in Zenica in the following order: The ECMM mission, the mayor,

22 Spahic, the deputy commander of the 3rd Corps, Mr. Merdan, and then

23 Father Stipan, in this order?

24 A. I can confirm it.

25 Q. And you mentioned that you were never alone for these meetings

Page 7796

1 and that you were accompanied by a Lieutenant Colonel Koet and a

2 Lieutenant Albers - that is in your statement - and yesterday you also

3 mentioned to me that you were accompanied by two members of the ECMM as

4 well as Randy Rhodes, from the civil affairs section. Is that correct?

5 A. It is correct. That's what I told you yesterday.

6 But after straining my memory a bit more, I can now tell that I

7 was mistaken, that there were no ECMM personnel accompanying me to these

8 meetings, that two military officers were in fact from the BH command. I

9 should have made this confusion in my mind, because we've met at the

10 ECMM -- I think we've met in the ECMM office.

11 Q. Thank you. If I recall your meeting with the mayor, Spahic,

12 would you confirm - and I'm just paraphrasing from one of your reports -

13 that he basically told you, "Human rights are always violated during the

14 war but we have nothing to hide," and that, "In 1991, there were 145.000

15 people who lived in Zenica, and now there are about 197.000 people,

16 48.000 of whom are refugees and displaced persons"? Would that ...?

17 A. That would be natural for Mr. Mayor, to discuss the demographic

18 picture of this location.

19 Q. And do you recall the mayor mentioning to you that "Not a single

20 church has been intentionally destroyed in the municipality and that

21 those two which were damaged as a result of the hostilities were repaired

22 at the expense of the municipality"?

23 A. I can in fact confirm this information.

24 Q. You also recall the mayor telling you that "There were no

25 organised expulsions, that there were no camps, and that prisoners of war

Page 7797

1 were detained in the old city prison, KP Dom, treated humanely and now

2 have now been exchanged"?

3 A. This would be a natural thing for the mayor to tell me.

4 Q. Can you confirm that after your visit you forwarded a letter to

5 the mayor asking for some information on measures that he was taking to

6 take care of criminal matters in his city?

7 A. I can confirm that.

8 Q. Can you also confirm that the mayor answered your letter?

9 A. Now I've seen this letter referred to in the document you

10 distributed, and I can of course confirm that such letter was in fact

11 received.

12 Q. Can you turn, Witness ZO, please, to tab number 6 in the second

13 document given to you, which appears to be a letter dated 22 October

14 addressed to someone whom you may know and that this letter is signed --

15 or at least bears the signature block of the Mayor Spahic from Zenica.

16 Do you recall having ever seen this letter?

17 A. I recall having seen this letter, although what we have here is

18 again a translation, and I don't see original to the letter itself.

19 Q. And by reading the contents, do you recall that this would be the

20 proper contents? I know it's a long letter, but does it appear to be the

21 same letter that you have received?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Defence would

25 request that this letter be tendered into evidence. It's under tab 6,

Page 7798

1 and it has been provided to the witness.

2 Q. [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... To a meeting

3 you had with Mr. Merdan. Can you confirm that Mr. Merdan began the

4 meeting by a lengthy statement concerning the necessity to develop an

5 effective and a disciplined army?

6 A. I can confirm that.

7 Q. And talking about your meeting with Mr. Merdan, would it be right

8 to say that he also mentioned to you that "The army abides by all

9 international treaties and norms and assists all the international

10 humanitarian organisations and that army laws and regulations are strict

11 but some bad individuals do cause some problems and the army will soon

12 throw away all those who do not respect the law and don't obey orders"?

13 Do you recall such a conversation?

14 A. I do recall.

15 Q. You also recall that when talking about Maljine, contrary to what

16 he said, he did not say that he was aware of allegations but he basically

17 informed you that there was, in Maljine, there may be some mass graves in

18 Maljine and that he could not issue you a permission to go there because

19 it was the policy to have the local commander authorise such visit.

20 A. This was the conversation between me and Mr. Merdan.

21 Q. And he never denied the possibility of an occurrence happening in

22 Maljine, but he did tell you that no civilians were killed in Maljine,

23 did he?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And he also told you that it was normal after a combat operation

Page 7799

1 to mop up the land and then to pay respect to the soldiers who had fallen

2 during battle.

3 A. I can't remember anything about respect, and I think the term he

4 used was translated to me was "to sanitise the area."

5 Q. I --

6 A. And to --

7 Q. You are correct, Witness ZO. "Pay respect" was my own wording,

8 which simply meant to take care of the bodies which have been picked up.

9 Could we agree on this interpretation?

10 A. I would agree with that.

11 Q. Now, do you recall also Mr. Merdan as saying that the area

12 controlled by 3rd Corps "not a single Croat village had been burned and

13 not a single church destroyed"? Do you recall this?

14 A. I recall that.

15 Q. And do you also recall that when answering your question on

16 Mujahedin, he said that "There are no Mujahedin units in the BiH army but

17 there are volunteers from a number of countries including some

18 Westerners. They came to fight back modern fascism and all of them are

19 required to obey orders and to respect the laws of the army"? Do you

20 recall this conversation?

21 A. This in fact is what Mr. Merdan told me.

22 Q. The next meeting you had was with Father Stipan, and Father

23 Stipan -- I asked you yesterday if you were aware that Father Stipan was

24 under the protection of the army and that he had a laissez-passer to go

25 around. Am I correct in saying that you cannot confirm this but what you

Page 7800

1 did tell me was that he at least acted as he was not hiding, not scared,

2 spoke openly, without fear?

3 A. I can confirm that.

4 Q. Father Stipan did mention to you the issue of Maljine, but

5 according to him this had been done by Mujahedin.

6 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

7 Q. And Father Stipan also confirmed that there were no major

8 problems in conducting religious services in Zenica and that people were

9 not afraid to go to church.

10 A. That's what he told me.

11 Q. And he also confirmed the issue that the church had been repaired

12 at the expense of the municipality.

13 A. It's also in my report, and that's what he told me.

14 Q. Now, Father Stipan did not mention to you that in August he had

15 visited Maljine along with a delegation from ECMM and Mr. Merdan,

16 according -- the alleged atrocities. He never mentioned that to you, did

17 he?

18 A. He he didn't mention this to me.

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

20 refer to P164 under tab 1. I would just like to refer to this document

21 which is already in evidence.

22 Q. [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... In those that I

23 gave to you now but it is included in the tab number 1. It is a report

24 that is from ECMM saying that Father Stipan, accompanied by Mr. Merdan

25 and ECMM monitors, did visit Maljine in August. But you can confirm,

Page 7801

1 Witness ZO, that Merdan never informed you -- sorry, that Father Stipan

2 did not inform you of this visit?

3 A. I can confirm that.

4 Q. Can you also confirm, Witness ZO, that when you met with Merdan -

5 and that was before you met Father Stipan - you did not request from him

6 any information as to any investigation being taken -- being handled by

7 the Bosnian army into the events in Maljine?

8 A. I can't remember posing him such a question.

9 Q. If we go on to the next meeting you had, Witness ZO, with a

10 gentleman called Salko Beba. And you can confirm that he was not happy

11 with the fact that Merdan had issued instructions to you that local

12 commanders were to authorise visits?

13 A. I cannot say that this was an instruction from Merdan to me. It

14 was just what he told me, that this was not his policy to issue such

15 permissions.

16 Q. So Mr. Salko Beba was on a different policy.

17 A. He was definitely on a different wavelength.

18 Q. And you had a good lunch with Mr. Salko Beba, during which you

19 drank a lot of very good rekija. Would that be fair to say?

20 A. I don't think that I drank a lot of good rekija, but I think the

21 rekija I drank was good.

22 Q. Maybe Mr. Merdan only drank.

23 But Witness ZO, when you had this meeting with Mr. Salko Beba,

24 would I be right to say that he mentioned to you that anyone who plunders

25 and harasses Croats, if he would catch any such people, the punishment

Page 7802

1 would be immediate and painful because "he who comes at night to steal

2 from an old Croat woman, even if he is my brother, I will order my people

3 to beat him up"?

4 A. That's what --

5 Q. Do you remember such wordings?

6 A. I remember.

7 Q. Do you also remember that when speaking about Mujahedin he

8 claimed that a lot of people in Bosnia and Herzegovina did not want to

9 live in a fundamentalist Bosnia? Do you recall this?

10 A. Yes, I do recall this.

11 Q. I need to bring you back, Witness ZO, to line 22 of page 85,

12 where my question says: "Maybe Mr. Merdan only drank." So I just would

13 like the make a correction. And what I told you is maybe only Mr. Beba

14 drank. That would be in line with your -- of course your --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Because Mr. Merdan was not there?

17 A. He was not there.

18 Q. Thank you. Is it also fair to say that he said this the main

19 role of the Mujahedin was that of brainwashers and levers of influence on

20 personnel? Do you recall?

21 A. That's what he told me.

22 Q. Do you also recall that he mentioned to you that "Muj," to use

23 the words that there in the report, "are not united. Some of them fight

24 in regular troops and obey orders and others really set their own

25 agenda"?

Page 7803

1 A. That's what he told me.

2 Q. Do you also recall that when you proceeded to Guca Gora you were

3 there with Mr. Beba at his suggestion?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And you had nevertheless to negotiate access to the area with the

6 local commander, as you mentioned earlier this morning on page 30?

7 A. Can you repeat the question?

8 Q. You nevertheless -- you were with Mr. Beba but you had to ask

9 permission to gain access to the local commander.

10 A. Correct. And Mr. Beba was helpful in indicating the right person

11 to me and even suggested in which terms I could approach this person.

12 Q. And Guca Gora, you did not find anything, and you proceeded to

13 Maljine.

14 A. What do you mean I didn't find anything?

15 Q. There was no prison, as you say, in your report, or no one being

16 detained.

17 A. I didn't find any evidence of a detention centre being located

18 there.

19 Q. But you did see that the church was under the protection of the

20 3rd Corps.

21 A. I've seen there some military personnel, and they told me that

22 they were protecting the church, and I saw nothing which could contradict

23 that statement.

24 Q. And you then proceeded to Guca Gora. And when you saw those two

25 patches of fresh earth that was there, you did not believe what the

Page 7804

1 soldiers told you, that this was dated from a long time back.

2 A. Correct. But this was in Maljine, not in Guca Gora.

3 Q. Sorry, in Maljine.

4 And in Maljine, the person who offered you a shovel to dig was

5 one of your escorts.

6 A. No. He was the one who was already there.

7 Q. And if in your report it says that it was one of your escorts,

8 which one would be true?

9 A. That it was the one who was there before I arrived.

10 Q. And if I -- that when you were in Maljine, you were informed that

11 some people might have been buried in another area 2 kilometres from

12 there.

13 A. That was the information I received previously, I think from

14 Father Stipan, that there is a mass grave but it's not really at the site

15 of the execution.

16 Q. Now, if we go on to following this visit. Then -- I'd like to

17 refer you to some letters which are in the document in front of you. You

18 can confirm that at your suggestion, or at least you had a role to play

19 in a letter that was forwarded by the Special Rapporteur to the president

20 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. I would like you -- to refer you to document number 2, or tab

23 number 2 in your document, which is a letter addressed from the commander

24 of the army to the 3rd Corps Command, and that -- would you by the

25 reading of this letter, which talks about the president of the Presidency

Page 7805

1 having received a letter from the Special Rapporteur, would you agree

2 that this is following the letter received to which you had a role to

3 play?

4 A. I would very much agree to that.

5 Q. And I would like to note to you that this is a letter that is

6 already in the record at Exhibit P171.

7 I would now like you to turn to tab number 3, where it says

8 "Request for submission of data." And this is a letter dated 17 October.

9 Can you confirm that this letter is also a follow-up to the letter from

10 Mr. Mazowiecki?

11 A. I would agree to that, yes.

12 Q. Now, in you look at the original letter, the one in the Bosnian

13 language, there is a signature there but it is signed on behalf of Enver

14 Hadzihasanovic, commander of the 3rd Corps.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a contested

16 document because we would like to have a witness for this letter. Given

17 that the witness is here before the Trial Chamber now, he could explain

18 where this letter comes from, and after the witness's testimony I would

19 like this letter to be tendered into evidence, so we would no longer be

20 contesting it.

21 Nevertheless, Mr. President, one of the questions raised by the

22 Defence concerns the signature, and we stand by our position with regard

23 to the signature in this document. But we would like this letter to be

24 admitted into evidence, so we will no longer be contesting it. But this

25 is what we will do after the testimony. Thank you.

Page 7806

1 Q. [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... In this

2 document. Now, this tab number 4 is a letter addressed from the

3 3rd Corps to the Supreme Command of the armed forces. And again, can you

4 confirm that this letter is the follow-up to the investigation which was

5 done within the 3rd Corps and this is being now reported to the army

6 headquarters? Without going through the contents, would you agree that

7 this is a follow-up to what is being done within the 3rd Corps?

8 A. This certainly looks to me like this is the case.

9 MR. BOURGON: I note for the record, Mr. President, that this

10 letter bears the exhibit number P174.

11 Q. Witness ZO, I now take you to tab number 5, and this is a letter

12 dated 23 October, which is addressed from the defence of the republic,

13 and that is the office of the commander, and it's addressed to the

14 Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And again, this is the follow-up where the

15 Minister of Foreign Affairs is being informed as to what investigation

16 took place within the 3rd Corps following the letter of Mr. Mazowiecki.

17 Would you confirm that?

18 A. Again, this very much looks like this is the case to me.

19 MR. BOURGON: I note for the record that this letter bears number

20 P175.

21 Q. And I ask you to turn to tab number 7. Would you recognise,

22 Witness ZO, that this is a typical report done by the Economic and Social

23 Council, and that is the Special Rapporteur's report, and that this one

24 bears the date 21 February 1994? Do you recognise this type of document?

25 A. Of course I do, with one small correction. This is not the

Page 7807

1 report done by the Economic and Social Council but rather to the Economic

2 and Social council. That's why it bears the name of the Economic and

3 Social Council. This is the report which on a routine basis provided by

4 Special Rapporteur and other mechanisms of the commission on human

5 rights.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness ZO.

7 I just draw your attention to paragraph 22, where in the report

8 the Special Rapporteur mentions the conclusions of the government with

9 respect to his letter which was forwarded, and that you were the

10 initiator.

11 I do not have time to go through more. I would simply now to

12 conclude draw your attention to the conclusion in your report which you

13 prepared on 4 October, and I would simply quote you to confirm that these

14 were indeed your conclusions, where it is stated: "My overall impression

15 is that the BiH government and the army do not pursue the policy of

16 ethnic cleansing of Croats in those territories under their control which

17 I was able to visit."

18 Would you confirm this wording as being from you?

19 A. These are my words.

20 Q. And also, where it says that "Many Croats who fled their homes in

21 the beginning of the fighting did that as a result of corresponding

22 propaganda in which of course the Mujahedin factor is of prominent

23 importance but under specific orders by the HVO"? Can you confirm this?

24 A. Yes, these are also my words.

25 Q. Can you also confirm that you said "Croat minorities in Zenica

Page 7808

1 and Bugojno, absent Vitez, seemingly are better off than Muslim minority

2 in the HVO-held pocket of Lasva Valley and Kiseljak, Kresevo"?

3 A. I can also confirm that these are my words.

4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you very much, Witness ZO. I have no further

5 questions. I thank you very much. We had to go a bit quick for the last

6 part in order to allow me to finish within 30 minutes.

7 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to thank

8 the Trial Chamber for their indulgence, and I would also like to repeat

9 that it was my mistake when I calculated the time we had. And once we

10 have finished with the examination of this witness, we will be asking for

11 this document to be tendered into it.

12 Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

14 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Mr. President. No questions on behalf of

15 Mr. Kubura for this witness. I'm grateful.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Re-examination on the part to

17 have Prosecution, please.

18 MR. MUNDIS: There's no questions in re-examination,

19 Mr. President. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as the documents are

21 concerned, the Defence has given us certain documents, some of them with

22 numbers. As a matter of fact, there are two documents which were

23 contested; they are tab 3 and now the Defence no longer contests this

24 document. And the Defence has asked for these documents on tab 6 to be

25 admitted into evidence. This is a letter from the Municipality of Zenica

Page 7809

1 to the witness.

2 So these are the documents that you want to tender into evidence.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but there are

4 also other documents.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Actually, there are three

6 documents.

7 Before I give the floor to the Prosecution to hear their

8 observations, just an observation on my part regarding the documents:

9 You have said to the witness that on the 17th of October the commander of

10 the 3rd Corps sent a request to the operations group to submit

11 information on the events in Maljine. I observe that we have not been

12 provided with the response by the operations group.

13 In addition to that, in the letter that Mr. Merdan sent in reply

14 to the request received on the 17th of October, it says your document

15 dated 17 of October -- your letter, rather, of 20th of October. Here we

16 have a document dated the 17th, but again we do not have a document dated

17 the 20th, which was supposed to be drafted by Mr. Delic. So there are

18 two documents missing. You have not submitted those documents. Maybe

19 they exist somewhere else, but they are not in the bundle that you have

20 provided us with.

21 You wanted to show something with this bundle, but we have to

22 state that some documents are missing from the bundle.

23 This was my observation, and now I would like to hear the remarks

24 on the part to have Prosecution.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with respect to the third document

Page 7810

1 at tab -- the document at tab 3 that the Defence had previously contested

2 and which now they seek to tender, might I suggest that because the

3 Prosecution had first tendered that document into evidence and in light

4 of the Chamber's ruling with respect to the documents that were tendered

5 through General Reinhardt by the Defence, that that be given a

6 Prosecution number. We have no objection obviously to that document

7 going into evidence, as it's one which we initially proposed for

8 admission into evidence.

9 With respect to the document at tab 6, we have no objection to

10 that document being admitted into evidence. It's unclear to me what the

11 Defence wanted to do with the letter addressed to Mr. Stoltenberg,

12 whether that was to be tendered or whether that was just to be marked.

13 Let me leave that for the Defence.

14 With respect to the documents that Your Honour highlighted, which

15 would appear to be some missing documents in the chain, I am unable at

16 this point to provide any additional clarification. However we will

17 certainly check amongst the documents which are on the contested document

18 list to determine whether any of those documents in fact are pieces of

19 this puzzle. We will make that inquiry, Mr. President. Perhaps we can

20 advise you as to that tomorrow morning.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

22 Mr. Mundis, we would kindly request you to do that.

23 And now back to the documents, tab 3, tab 6, no problems there.

24 The Prosecution has some reservations about the documents sent by the

25 United Nations to Geneva.

Page 7811

1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document that

2 being discussed now, the Defence would like this document to be tendered

3 into evidence, not only because the witness has recognised it but also

4 this is a document that he had in his possession, this is a document that

5 he used in his work, and he personally sent it to Geneva together with

6 some other documents. The witness has also recognised the contents of

7 this document.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

9 Mr. Registrar, can we have three numbers, first for the document

10 here.

11 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we agreed that the

12 numbers may be retained, the numbers by the Prosecution, because the

13 Prosecution tendered these documents into evidence first.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Okay. Let's first deal with

15 the documents sent to the United Nations, then the document which is at

16 tab 6, and finally the document at tab 3. And then we will address the

17 other issues.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the information report dated 17th

19 of August, 1993 gets the exhibit number DH179, under seal.

20 The English translation of a letter from Spahic dated 22nd of

21 October, 1993 and which was tendered as tab 6 here gets the exhibit

22 number DH180, under seal.

23 The document from the 3rd Corps gets the exhibit number P111.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You have all

25 recorded these three numbers.

Page 7812

1 We still have a document that was "Instruction to the Muslim

2 Fighter." This instruction or this manual has been given to the witness.

3 Would you like this document to be tendered into evidence or not? Would

4 you like the "Instruction to the Muslim Fighter" to be tendered into

5 evidence or not?

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution certainly would like

7 that tendered into evidence if Your Honours think it would be helpful for

8 the issues that you have to ultimately address. I assume that my learned

9 colleagues will object to that, but if Your Honours believe that it is

10 helpful, we would certainly offer that into evidence.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As regards this document which

12 has been translated into English, which was drafted in 1993 in Zenica,

13 which cost 50.000-something in local currency - we don't know what was

14 the currency there at the time. We can see who the publisher is, who the

15 author is, and the document has been recognised by the witness. In this

16 document, we can see a number of chapters concerning religious issues,

17 amongst which there are also chapters concerning prisoners of war and war

18 booty.

19 Mr. Dixon, obviously you have some objections to this.

20 MR. DIXON: Your Honour will be aware that this was a document

21 which we indicated we did require a witness for, because it was only

22 marked for identification initially as a soldier from the 7th Brigade was

23 not able to recognise it when the Prosecution sought to introduce it

24 through him. That was Witness BA back in December of last year.

25 Your Honours, we would continue to maintain our objection and

Page 7813

1 require a witness who can identify the document. All this witness was

2 able to do in his testimony was -- he was able to identify a few pages in

3 English, not the original in B/C/S, and certainly not the entire exhibit.

4 He was able to indicate that he got a few pages as part of his briefing

5 from the UN. We would have no objection to those pages going in as

6 documents that he received and recognised, but we would object to the

7 whole document going in on the basis that he wasn't able to recognise the

8 entire document and wasn't able to do so in its official language.

9 Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

11 The witness is before us. I would like to ask him a question.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document which you have

14 been provided with, you said that it was provided to you. Who was it who

15 provided you with it? A civilian or a soldier? Who was it that you got

16 this document from?

17 A. I can't remember. I only remember that this has been provided to

18 me in the premises of HQ of BH command in Kiseljak. And there were

19 meetings all the time and papers have been presented to us attention or

20 given to us. I cannot remember from whose hands I received these several

21 pages.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Whoever gave this document to

23 you, it was on the army premises, so I suppose this person could not have

24 been a civilian, could it?

25 A. Being BH command, of course, the predominant group of occupants

Page 7814

1 were military --

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This was a soldier.

3 A. -- but there were quite a number of civilians also working for

4 UNHCR or civil affairs, so there were not -- it was not the case that it

5 would be exclusive military personnel.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give you the floor

7 in a minute.

8 This document that you were given, according to what you

9 remember, was that a document that was original and bound, or was that a

10 photocopy of the original document?

11 A. These were several sheets of photocopies. It was not the

12 original text.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why were you given this

14 document in the first place? You're not a soldier. You remember not a

15 member of the army. Why were you given this document? Do you remember

16 what reasons were given to you when you were being given this document?

17 A. Since I can't remember the circumstances under which this

18 document has been provided to me, it's difficult for me to guess the

19 reasons. But people knew that we were after relevant information, and I

20 would say that information which was contained on these several sheets of

21 paper was relevant to my mandate.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you have the

23 floor.

24 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I just

25 wanted to make sure of something. I don't know whether the witness could

Page 7815

1 confirm this, but concerning questions of BH command, this concerns the

2 UNPROFOR headquarters, not the headquarters of one of the parties. These

3 are the UN headquarters where we can see both civilians and members of

4 the military, but not people from the BH.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this was the UNPROFOR

6 headquarters. It wasn't the BH army. This document was provided to you

7 by someone from UNPROFOR headquarters in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 A. Absolutely so. And this would have been impossible that somebody

9 from the BH army would have given this to me in the premises of UNPROFOR.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But given that this document

11 was on sale. In theory it was on sale, because there was a price; you

12 could have bought it in Zenica.

13 A. To my surprise, if I understand your words, I understand that

14 this was in public sale. This fact has never been indicated to me and

15 this has not been explained to me when these several sheets together were

16 given to me -- these several sheets of paper were given to me. As I have

17 said --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

19 will deliberate about this issue, and we will see what should be done

20 with regard to this document.

21 Unless Mr. Mundis has any other clarifications to provide, we

22 could adjourn.

23 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could just briefly.

24 It's the Prosecution's understanding that the number on page 44

25 of the document, the 50.000 number, refers to the print run; that is, the

Page 7816

1 number of copies of this document that were produced and not to the cost

2 of the document. I simply draw that to the Chamber's attention in case

3 there's any confusion. Our interpretation, Mr. President, is that this

4 was a document or a booklet or publication that 350.000 copies were

5 printed up. I just want to avoid any possible confusion.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we note that the

8 number "50.000" doesn't represent the price, because I would have

9 consulted the B/C/S line. I had a look at the line in B/C/S. But as I

10 don't know the B/C/S language, I thought it was the price. But you are

11 telling us that it is the print run.

12 Yes, Mr. Dixon.

13 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. Very briefly. There's just

14 one further matter that I wish to draw to Your Honours' attention in

15 deliberating this matter, and that is this witness indicated in his

16 examination-in-chief that he was not sure of the status of this document,

17 it's not clear to him, and that he couldn't deduce that it was a book of

18 the Bosnian army. In our submission, that is very relevant information

19 because the Prosecution seeks to introduce this document to support its

20 allegation in the indictment that 20.000 copies -- not 50.000 but 20.000

21 copies of this booklet were distributed within the 3rd Corps area of

22 responsibility, and it's for the purpose of proving that point that this

23 exhibit is sought to be introduced, I would take it.

24 And if the witness cannot give any evidence as to the origin of

25 the booklet and what its status was, we would submit that he's not the

Page 7817

1 appropriate witness to introduce the booklet and that there are future

2 witness who is may be able to do that.

3 I'm grateful, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Given that we have

5 almost completed the examination of this witness --

6 Unless Mr. Bourgon would like to say something.

7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

8 just like to address the issue raised by the Trial Chamber concerning the

9 missing documents.

10 Mr. President, we are actively searching for these documents. We

11 have found one additional document. We found it this night by using the

12 electronic search of the Prosecution. We found a letter addressed by

13 Mr. Izetbegovic to the chief of the Main Staff of the army. So this is a

14 fragment of the overall picture. We are looking for these documents.

15 The one that we have presented today -- we have referred to today

16 are in our possession -- are the ones that are in possession but we will

17 do everything we can to find the documents in order to provide you with a

18 full picture of the events. But there are other steps that we will have

19 to take and that we will take in the course of the following week.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, for having

21 come to testify here. You have answered all the questions put to you,

22 and we wish you a good trip home.

23 I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 7818

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a few more seconds.

2 Mr. Mundis, a witness is scheduled for tomorrow, and there's the

3 transcript of an audiotape. Can you inform the Trial Chamber of how you

4 intend to proceed, because there are a number of possibilities. The

5 audiotape could perhaps be listened to in totality; we could listen to

6 the first five minutes of it. How did you intend to present the

7 witness -- to proceed with the witness and with this audiotape? And how

8 did you intend to tender this transcript into evidence? For the time

9 being, this is a contested document, and I'm asking you this question so

10 as not the waste any time tomorrow on technical issues that can be easily

11 solved. And then we will be in a position to know in advance how we will

12 proceeding.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 The full audiotape that was presented by the witness to the

15 Prosecution runs approximately 32 minutes. It's the Prosecution's

16 intention, and I have explained this -- or mentioned this to the Defence

17 earlier this morning - was to play certain excerpts, a few minutes of

18 that audiotape, in open court so that the witness could properly

19 authenticate the tape. We would then be seeking to tender into evidence

20 the transcript of the audiotape. And I can tell my learned colleagues

21 that in fact that transcript is the only document that will be used in

22 respect to the witness who is here for tomorrow.

23 So we would propose to play a short excerpt or perhaps two

24 excerpts from the tape so that the witness can properly identify and

25 authenticate what's happening and then of course show him the transcript,

Page 7819

1 have him verify that the transcript in fact matches the tape. And then

2 we'll tender that transcript into evidence.

3 If Your Honours would prefer to hear the full 32 minutes, we can

4 happily do that, but our intention was only to play one or perhaps two

5 excerpts from the tape, in order to save time.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

7 Defence to address this issue, how much time did you think it would take

8 you to conduct your examination-in-chief of this witness?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, I'll be meeting with the

10 witness this afternoon after lunch, so it's a bit difficult. I would not

11 anticipate the direct examination lasting more than one hour. I would

12 anticipate that by the first technical break I should be finished, or

13 very close to being finished.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you know, the Trial Chamber

15 is always concerned when a witness is called on Friday, because we're

16 always worried about obliging this witness to remain over the weekend in

17 order to continue with the witness's testimony on Monday. This is why

18 the Trial Chamber likes to know in advance whether this is a risk.

19 As far as the technical means are concerned, as far as the idea

20 of having the witness recognise certain excerpts without listening to the

21 entire tape, Mr. Bourgon, what would your position be?

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 The Prosecution has informed us of this procedure, and we have no

24 objection to it.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

Page 7820

1 MR. DIXON: [Previous translation continues] ... No objection.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 We have dealt with all the issues, and we will now adjourn. I

4 will see everyone tomorrow at 9.00.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of

7 May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.