1 Wednesday, 26 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, call the case,

6 please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Ms. Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis, and the case

14 manager, Mr. Andres Vatter. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Appearances for the Defence,

16 please.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

18 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane

19 Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, case manager.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

21 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic and Nermin Mulalic, legal

22 assistant.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to

24 welcome everybody present in the courtroom, the Prosecution, the Defence

25 counsel, the accused, and everybody else. You have all noticed that we

1 have had a delay due to a technical glitch which did not allow us to

2 begin at 9.00.

3 As the President of this Chamber who has the responsibility to

4 secure the smooth proceedings, I would like to ask the registrar to make

5 sure that half an hour before the beginning of the session that a

6 technician comes and checks every detail in the courtroom to make sure

7 that everything works. Can you imagine a situation in which we had the

8 press, the general public, and everybody waiting for the session to begin

9 at 9.00 and then there is a delay? That's why I would kindly ask you to

10 make sure that a technician is present in due time to check that

11 everything works in the courtroom at least half an hour before the

12 session. We would like to avoid such accidents in the future.

13 The Chamber would like to render a decision regarding a document

14 which was tendered into evidence. This was the "Instructions to the

15 Muslim Fighter." As you know, we have given it a number for

16 identification. It was P11 ID. This document was presented to the

17 witness and the witness did not recognise the whole document. He only

18 recognised page 25.

19 The Chamber has deliberated and decided that an exhibit number

20 will be given to the front page and the pages 24 and 25 of this document.

21 The remainder of this document still needs to be identified. This is the

22 decision that we are rendering on this document which was given a number

23 for identification, P11 ID. So we would like to have an exhibit number

24 for the flyleaf and pages 24 and 25 of this document.

25 Today we have a witness who has been envisaged, but before that,

1 Mr. Registrar, can you please confirm that this document has an exhibit

2 number and that it will be admitted into evidence under number P11.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the pages you mentioned get the

4 exhibit number P11.1 and P11.1/E for the English translation.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

6 We still have to be provided with these pages by the Prosecution,

7 because for the time being they haven't been officially provided to the

8 Chamber. Can you please provide these pages to the registrar.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, we will provide the pages during the

12 course of today's proceedings.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Madam Usher, can you please bring the witness into the courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning. I would like to

17 check whether you can hear the interpretation of my words into English.

18 Can you hear me?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called as a

21 Prosecution witness. You're going to take the solemn declaration in

22 order to testify, but before that, could you please give us your name,

23 the date of birth, the place of birth, and your nationality.

24 THE WITNESS: Major Angus Hay, born 19/3/1967, born Addis Ababa,

25 Ethiopia, and I'm a Brit Scot.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current position?

2 THE WITNESS: Currently a ground liaison officer with the Royal

3 Air Force.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where are you stationed?

5 THE WITNESS: Royal Air Force Lossiemouth in the north of

6 Scotland.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your rank, sir?

8 THE WITNESS: Major.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, 11 years ago, you were

10 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In what position did you serve and what was

11 your rank there?

12 THE WITNESS: I was a captain attached to the Prince of Wales'

13 Own BritBat 2, where I was a military liaison officer.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

15 either before an international tribunal or before a national court about

16 the events which took place during the year 1993, or is this your first

17 testimony before a court?

18 THE WITNESS: I have been here before, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell us

20 whether you have testified once, two times. How many times have you

21 testified and in which case, if you remember?

22 THE WITNESS: I have only been in the court once, and that was

23 against Mr. Kordic.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were you a Prosecution witness

25 or a Defence witness when you testified?

1 THE WITNESS: A Prosecution witness.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please

3 read the text of the solemn declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

5 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Major, you may be

7 seated.

8 WITNESS: ANGUS HAY

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I apologise for the delay,

10 which was due to a technical glitch in the courtroom. You have been

11 called to testify. First you're going to be asked questions by the

12 Prosecution, and after that the Defence is going to lead their

13 cross-examination. They're also going to ask you questions, and their

14 time will be limited to 50 per cent of the time given to the Prosecution.

15 After the second stage, once the Defence has finished their

16 questioning, the Prosecution may wish to re-examine you. The three

17 Judges seated before you, if they think it may be necessary to put

18 questions to you in order to clarify matters or to fill in gaps in your

19 answers, may also put questions to you.

20 Generally speaking, the Judges prefer to wait until the

21 Prosecution and the Defence have finished with their examination and

22 cross-examination. When the Judges put questions to you, they will give

23 the floor to the Defence and to the Prosecution to ask questions that

24 might arise from the Judges' questions.

25 Try to answer as concisely and as precisely as possible to the

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1 questions put to you. As you know, we are in the so-called oral

2 procedure and your testimony is the most important thing.

3 I would also like to remind you of two or three other points

4 which do not necessarily apply to you. First of all, you have taken an

5 oath to tell the truth, which means that you have taken an oath not to

6 give a false testimony, which is punishable under the law. And the

7 second point I would like to raise is that a witness may sometimes decide

8 not to answer a question put to him because such an answer might

9 incriminate the witness. In such a case, the Chamber may compel the

10 witness to answer; however, when doing that, the Chamber will guarantee

11 such a witness a sort of immunity. This is in a nutshell how your

12 testimony will develop.

13 Without wasting any more time, since we have already wasted 45

14 minutes due to the technical problem, I am giving the floor to the

15 Prosecution, and I believe it is going to be Mrs. Benjamin who's going to

16 lead the examination-in-chief.

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

19 Q. Good morning, Major Hay. You would have indicated previously to

20 the Trial Chamber your rank and -- your present rank and your rank while

21 you were in Bosnia. Could you briefly state for the Chamber your

22 military qualifications and experience, if any, please.

23 A. Could you elaborate on that again, sorry.

24 Q. Where did you receive your training in your career?

25 A. I joined the army in 1983 as a boy soldier with the British Army.

1 I was commissioned in 1988, spending a year at the Royal Military Academy

2 Sandhurst, after which I joined the Gordon Highlanders which is an

3 infantry battalion, and I've been in the army now for 21 years.

4 Q. Thank you. Prior to your deployment to Bosnia, did you receive

5 any training in preparation for the said deployment?

6 A. Yes, we did. We did a number of weeks or a couple of months

7 build-up training prior to deployment. That was both in -- basically in

8 Germany, culminating in an exercise and training finalisation based in

9 Sennelager.

10 Q. Could you please state for the Trial Chamber, Major, your

11 duration of the tour of your duty, when it commenced and when it ended.

12 A. I can't exactly remember. It was around about end of May,

13 beginning of -- end of April, beginning of May 1993. And I finished my

14 tour of duty October/November. I can't remember precisely. It was

15 approximately seven months.

16 Q. Thank you. And kindly state for us your area of responsibility

17 whilst in Bosnia.

18 A. When we first arrived, the liaison officer that I took over from

19 had a real estate spanning from Busovaca, Vitez, Zenica, Novi Travnik,

20 Travnik, Turbe. But after two and a half, three weeks in theatre, we

21 realised -- I realised that it was unworkable and consequently my area of

22 responsibility was reduced down to the area of Turbe, Travnik, and Novi

23 Travnik.

24 Q. Thank you. As a BritBat liaison officer, could you briefly state

25 for us what was the role or the purpose of BritBat in Bosnia at the time.

1 A. The purpose of BritBat was to assist with the distribution of

2 humanitarian aid, working for the United Nations. My responsibility

3 within that was as a military liaison officer to establish working

4 relationships with all the local belligerent commanders and prominent

5 people from all ethnic backgrounds, to establish a working relationship

6 in order to assist with the United Nations furthered missions of

7 humanitarian aid, distribution, monitoring prisoners of war, trying to

8 sort of resolve issues, trying to sort of stop fighting, et cetera.

9 Q. In the process of carrying out your responsibilities, would you

10 have had to participate in meetings of any kind?

11 A. Yes. That was part and parcel of the job, either attending

12 meetings or setting up the said meetings.

13 Q. As a result of these meetings, did you have cause to come in

14 contact with the commanders or the senior officers of the units in your

15 AOR at the time?

16 A. Yes. As I've already said, that part of my job was to establish

17 links with all the local commanders as much as I -- as many as I could

18 get access to and prominent people for the said purpose of establishing

19 meetings and just building a working relationship with them.

20 Q. Now, could you tell us some of the commanders that you may have

21 met with while on the tour of your duty.

22 A. I can safely say that I came into contact with most of the sort

23 of prominent individuals from the sort of Lasva Valley, centred around

24 Vitez, up to Zenica, Travnik, Novi Travnik. Basically all the local

25 commanders from all the -- from both the HVO and the BiH side.

1 Q. Major Hay, could you state for the Trial Chamber the units that

2 were present in your AOR at that time.

3 A. I cannot remember all of the units and I can't -- my mind is a

4 bit murky on -- as far as the specific HVO units go, because really after

5 the sort of first two and a half, three weeks the majority of my sort of

6 real estate encompassed the ABiH centred around Travnik, of which there

7 came under command 3 Corps; there was, I think, 17 Krajina Brigade,

8 7th Muslim Brigade. And I can't remember the other ones, I'm sorry.

9 Q. Apart from the three that you have mentioned, were there any

10 other units present in your AOR that you may -- that may have come under

11 the ABiH, as far as you're aware?

12 A. There was -- sorry, could you elaborate on that?

13 Q. Well, you told us that you saw the 3rd Corps, the 17th, and the

14 7th. Did you see any other soldiers in the AOR at that time?

15 A. As I said, yes, but I can't remember specific designations what

16 units they belonged to, specific badges or anything.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. In the conduct of your meetings, did you at

18 any time have any dealings with Mr. Enver Hadzihasanovic?

19 A. I met Mr. Hadzihasanovic a couple of times during my sort of

20 first month in Central Bosnia, specifically when I was taking over from

21 the LO with the Cheshires, because his real estate encompassed Zenica.

22 And then really when my area of responsibility was reduced, I really

23 didn't have many meetings with him after that. I may have met him at a

24 couple of meetings, but I really didn't have anything -- any direct sort

25 of contact with him.

1 Q. Could you therefore, then, assist the Trial Chamber from a

2 professional point of view and from a military standpoint your opinion of

3 the individual Enver Hadzihasanovic.

4 A. My opinion of Mr. Hadzihasanovic was he was the commander of

5 3 Corps. That is what we were led to believe, and consequently that's

6 what I was led to believe. He commanded 3 Corps from Zenica.

7 Q. And would you have cause to meet Mr. Alagic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the course of your meetings?

10 A. Yes. Mr. Alagic was my daily contact basically, really. I had a

11 lot of dealings with Mr. Alagic.

12 Q. Could you, then, Major, give us again your professional

13 assessment and personal assessment with respect to Mr. Alagic.

14 A. Mr. Alagic was, I believe, a former JNA army officer. He was a

15 larger-than-life character, but he was very shrewd.

16 Q. One of your -- okay, during your tenure, one of your duties - I

17 presume, and correct me if I'm wrong - one of your duties was to receive

18 complaints and to relay such complaints with the respective commanders

19 that you met. Am I right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In doing so, what would be the response of, for example,

22 Mr. Alagic, to these complaints?

23 A. Just to clarify, these allegations, rumours, whatever, ranged

24 from atrocities to mutilations, to somebody was fighting on some front,

25 did we know this, did we know that, et cetera. Anyway, Mr. Alagic's

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1 response depended on the situation and would change on a daily basis,

2 obviously depending on the overall situation as he perceived it. He

3 could be helpful. He could be uncooperative. He could deny it. It just

4 depended on the situation.

5 Q. But would you say at all times your responsibility was to bring

6 it to his attention as to what complaints you'd received and would you

7 say that you always did this and he was always put on notice with respect

8 to all the complaints you may have received? Would you say so?

9 A. Yes, I think so.

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: I think my colleague is on his feet.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. Good day,

13 Mr. President.

14 Mr. President, the last three questions are leading questions.

15 They're trying to obtain a specific answer from the witness. The last

16 three questions -- although I'm ready to allow my colleagues certain room

17 for manoeuvre, these last three questions are leading and the witness

18 should really be allowed to answer of his own accord without being led.

19 Thank you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What could the Prosecution say?

21 When we have a look at the way the question was phrased in the

22 transcript, it's true that the witness doesn't have much room for

23 manoeuvre when answering the question put to him. We could obtain the

24 same results by asking the question -- by asking the witness shorter

25 questions. And since the witness saw one of the two accused and the

1 person called Alagic who is now deceased, you could ask him whether he

2 was able to provide you with certain information with regard to certain

3 matters.

4 Ms. Benjamin, given what Mr. Bourgon has said, could you rephrase

5 the question without leading the witness. I know that everyone wants to

6 save time, and going to the substance could make this possible, but

7 nevertheless there are certain rules that have to be respected. These

8 rules may be restrictive, but we have to establish a balance between the

9 need to save time and the need to respect rules which might be

10 restrictive.

11 So Ms. Benjamin, please rephrase your question.

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President. But the witness,

13 having already established the foundation that he was in company with the

14 commander during the meetings, I thought it could just follow on. Thank

15 you.

16 Q. Major Hay, in the course of your meetings, could you tell the

17 Trial Chamber where the meetings were held?

18 A. The locations of the meetings changed according to what was

19 happening around the ground. We tried to -- I remember attending

20 meetings in, as we called it, the JNA barracks, Alagic's headquarters in

21 Travnik. We attended meetings in one of the hotels in Travnik where the

22 ECMM based themselves for a while. And we also convened some of the

23 meetings when the atmosphere and the environment became a little bit more

24 hostile. We chaired a couple of meetings at the school where we were

25 based.

1 Q. And specifically with respect to Mr. Alagic's headquarters, did

2 you have cause to visit any other place whilst there?

3 A. Sorry, within his headquarters?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Yes. We -- myself and my brother, we visited, or we were taken

6 down to visit a detention centre underneath his headquarters.

7 Q. And could you kindly tell the Trial Chamber your observations on

8 this visit, please.

9 A. It was a cellar. There were detainees in it. I can't remember

10 exactly how many, who they were, but there was nothing that drew mine or

11 my brother's attention out of the ordinary. They were reasonably -- in

12 reasonable condition, et cetera. There was lighting, and if I remember

13 rightly, there was some medical facilities down there. But there was

14 nothing horrific or draconian, if I remember rightly.

15 Q. Did you see detainees in the centre?

16 A. Yes. Or alleged detainees.

17 Q. Thank you. And would you be able to assist us with the ethnic

18 background of these detainees?

19 A. I cannot remember. I can't even remember if Alagic told us who

20 they were. I'm sure he did. But I could only assume that they would

21 have been HVO, apart from one chap up top, who was a detainee who was one

22 of his own military commanders.

23 Q. In the summer of 1993, how would you describe the atmosphere in

24 your AOR at that time?

25 A. Tense.

1 Q. Could you elaborate for us, please.

2 A. This is from my own perspective. We arrived, the POW took over

3 from the Cheshires a few weeks after the bomb went off in the centre of

4 Vitez and also subsequently the -- what happened at Ahmici. And really,

5 just maybe not necessarily as direct result of that but a cascading

6 effect following on from that, the relationship between Croats and

7 Muslims just deteriorated, and deteriorated the longer we were based in

8 Central Bosnia.

9 Q. Major Hay, did there come a time when you began to see the

10 emergence of other units in your AOR? Did there come a time?

11 A. To that, I presume you are or you will be referring to what we,

12 BritBat, basically the foreign element, the foreign mercenaries,

13 Mujahedin, as the Croats referred to them. Yes.

14 Q. Could you please state for the Trial Chamber what, if anything,

15 that you learnt of this group of people. What did you learn about them?

16 A. They were definitely foreign mercenaries. I personally saw a

17 number of them, deceased individuals of North African and Middle Eastern

18 persuasion.

19 They were, we believe, a sort of spearhead -- or used as the

20 initiators of any sort of ABiH sort of offensive. That's what the

21 purpose of their being there was, we believed. And for some reason - I

22 can't remember why - we associated them with 7 Muslim Brigade.

23 Q. During your tour of duty, could you briefly summarise your

24 observations with respect to the two armies and their relationships; that

25 being the ABiH and the HVO.

1 A. Compared to each other or ...?

2 Q. Yes. What did you observe about the relations and what

3 transpired between the two?

4 A. The BiH -- I'm sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you're after

5 here.

6 Q. Did both parties -- did both armies have a good relationship

7 between them?

8 A. Not particularly as time went on.

9 Q. And as time went on, what did you observe?

10 A. Well, the hostilities increased and frequency of sort of fighting

11 increased.

12 Q. What about the complaints that would relayed to you? Did they

13 increase?

14 A. I think they probably did, given the frequency of events

15 increasing, the number of events, you know. As a result, allegations,

16 fact or false, you know, were rife.

17 Q. And as a result of these increased reports, alleged incidents,

18 what was your role? What role did you play respect to quelling same or

19 sorting same out? What role did you play?

20 A. Going back to the beginning of the questioning, one of my

21 roles -- one of the key roles was relaying these concerns to the local

22 commanders, putting the facts as they were presented to us or the

23 allegations as they were presented to us factually or fictionally,

24 putting them to the local commanders, seeing what the response was,

25 asking what they were going to do about it.

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1 Q. And so I'll go back to the original question, if I'm allowed to

2 go. What was the response of the local commanders to your reports? And

3 maybe you could tell us which commanders and the response.

4 A. I go back to my earlier answer too, insofar as -- and it wasn't

5 just General Alagic. It was Sablic Jeliko [phoen], the ABiH commander

6 from Novi Travnik; there was Salko Beba, there was the HVO commanders in

7 Travnik. I can't remember their names now.

8 The response differed on a daily basis. They wanted to use us to

9 their advantage, if possible. Sometimes that wasn't possible. They

10 didn't believe us sometimes. Some of the rumours and allegations were

11 just beyond fantasy. Some of them, you know, applied a bit of common

12 sense to it. There was a basis to it. And their response differed on a

13 daily basis. Sometimes they could be cooperative, they wanted us to

14 pursue issues; other times they would just deny things happened if the

15 allegations were against them, et cetera.

16 Q. Major, how, then, would you describe your tour of duty if you had

17 to sum it up in one word? How would you describe it?

18 A. Frustrating.

19 Q. Frustrating meaning that you did not achieve your ends or your

20 goals?

21 A. I think we achieved a lot. But what one must appreciate was

22 there was a war going on in Central Bosnia there and, you know, the

23 situation isn't made easier by that. Our duty.

24 Q. Frustrating because you didn't get the action that you thought

25 may have occurred? Why frustrating? That's the point I want to get.

1 Why do you describe it as frustrating?

2 A. You leave the base with a mission in mind and -- or something to

3 do, and you may achieve it or you may not. And a whole host of other

4 things would come onto the horizon that you'd have to deal with on a

5 daily basis. It was shuttle diplomacy and you just reacted to situations

6 as they arose, of which there were many every day.

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, Your Honours. This concludes

8 the examination-in-chief.

9 Thank you, Major.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Benjamin. It

11 took you about 30 minutes to conduct your examination-in-chief.

12 Mr. Bourgon, I can see you with your lectern.

13 So you may proceed.

14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:

16 Q. [In English] Good morning, Mr. Hay. We have had the pleasure of

17 meeting yesterday, and I'd like to take this opportunity for thank you

18 for taking the time to meet with us yesterday.

19 Let me begin by introducing myself for the benefit of the

20 transcript as well as my two colleagues. I am accompanied this morning

21 by Mrs. Edina Residovic as well as Mrs. Muriel Cauvin, and together we

22 represent General Hadzihasanovic.

23 I only have a few questions for you this morning, Major, and I

24 think this should not take too long.

25 Let me begin by asking if you can confirm that you gave a

1 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in April of 1997. Do you

2 recall giving a statement?

3 A. I've given about two or three statements or two statements, I

4 think. The first one, the time frame sounds about right, yes.

5 Q. If I go straight into some of the specifics that you've raised

6 today. You mentioned that you had daily dealings with a gentleman called

7 Alagic; is that correct?

8 A. That's right, yes.

9 Q. You mentioned the time when you went to see Mr. Alagic at his

10 headquarters, which was located in the JNA barracks.

11 A. That's right, yes.

12 Q. And you also referred to a fact that you visited some kind of a

13 detention facility which was below his headquarters; is that correct?

14 A. That is correct, yes.

15 Q. Now, just for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, in response to a

16 question by my colleague you mentioned that you were accompanied by your

17 brother at the time. Can you confirm that your brother, Colin Hay, was

18 occupying at the time similar functions as yours as a United Kingdom

19 liaison officer in the same area as you were?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. And this is the reason why both yourself and your brother visited

22 Mr. Alagic.

23 A. That's right, yes.

24 Q. Can you confirm, Major, that on that occasion your visit to

25 Mr. Alagic had not been announced before?

1 A. Yes. I think I can confirm that. We never really announced our

2 visits. We just sort of dropped in when we were doing our sort of

3 rounds. We never really sort of set a time or anything.

4 Q. And on that specific day, Major, the fact that you visited the

5 detention facility was done at your own request and initiative.

6 A. I can't remember who initiated it, but -- I can't confirm that.

7 I can't remember who initiated the visit, i.e., to the detention centre,

8 I can't remember -- Alagic sort of said, you know.

9 Q. Major, do you recall that you were asked similar questions when

10 you testified in the Kordic case before this Tribunal?

11 A. Again, I can't remember specifics. I'm sorry.

12 Q. But you do recall testifying.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I would just like to read you your answer, and then you can tell

15 me whether the answer you provided then fits with what you still believe

16 today.

17 A. Right.

18 Q. Now, the question that was put to you at that time --

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm referring to the

20 transcript of the testimony of Major Hay in the Blaskic case. It's on

21 page 10, 296 -- I apologise, the Kordic case, Mr. President.

22 Q. [In English] The question that was put to you again, Major, was:

23 "In the course of 1993, you had occasion to visit General Alagic

24 in Travnik and his headquarters." And your answer was yes. And then the

25 further question was:

1 "You noticed in the basement of these headquarters the presence

2 of HVO prisoners. Could you describe -- tell us what conditions they

3 appeared to be in."

4 And your answer was, "Yes, they were in a reasonable settle given

5 the fact that they were prisoners of war, but they were being looked

6 after and they did not -- there was nothing untowards that I recall."

7 Would that be a fair statement of what you would believe today?

8 A. Yes. But as time goes on, my mind gets murkier of events, so

9 that is a timely reminder.

10 Q. The next question which was put to you was:

11 "Had you announced your visit to General Alagic beforehand?"

12 And your answer to this question was:

13 "No, he was unaware that I would be arriving and he took he me

14 down at my request and showed me around and during then was when I was

15 introduced to the prisoners of war." Would that be --

16 A. That sounds about right, yes.

17 Q. Now, this morning you mentioned in response to a question by my

18 colleague that you saw in this facility some medical facilities.

19 A. Yes, I mentioned it. I can't remember exactly -- something rings

20 a bell that there was a medical facility or there was -- there was some

21 medical equipment down there, if I remember rightly.

22 Q. And you also mentioned that you saw the detainees and that you

23 assume they were HVO. Now, other than the fact that they were well

24 treated, as you said, you don't know whether they were HVO and they could

25 have been detainees from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1 A. They could have been.

2 Q. And you also mentioned in response to a question by my colleague

3 that "There was one of his own commanders who was there at the time."

4 Are you referring to the commander -- or who are you referring to when

5 you say "there was one of his own commanders there"?

6 A. It was a chap by the name of Mr. Berberovic.

7 Q. And do you know why he was there?

8 A. I remember the -- being told by Alagic that there had been some

9 fratricide basically, a blue-on-blue. He had killed some of his own

10 people, a mistake with an artillery piece or something.

11 Q. Moving on, Major Hay. You mentioned that the atmosphere in 1993

12 was tense. And you answered then that you had some information about the

13 presence of foreign mercenaries.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, on this issue of foreign mercenaries, would I be right in

16 saying that what you believed at the time is that you did not know -- and

17 I read here from your statement -- you did not know who formally

18 controlled the Mujahedin and who coordinated their activities? Would

19 that be a fair statement?

20 A. That is right. I can't remember why, but within BritBat, it was

21 the intelligence officer, whatever, but somehow we associated them with

22 7 Muslim Brigade. But actual coordination, control, ownership of them

23 was never really tied down.

24 Q. And you yourself, other than knowing -- you did not know where

25 these people came from and when they came into Bosnia and Herzegovina.

1 A. No, not exactly.

2 Q. And you did not know exactly where they were located in Central

3 Bosnia.

4 A. We saw small pockets of them, and in particular -- I can't

5 remember the name of the building, but as you come into Travnik on the

6 right-hand side from Vitez, as you just come into Travnik, there was a

7 building that -- again, for some reason, I can't remember -- we

8 associated with these foreign elements, and also up in the high country

9 sort of between Travnik and Zenica, the back road to Travnik and Zenica,

10 Guca Gora area, out in the sort of outcountry there, there was a -- small

11 pockets of them.

12 Q. Now, Major, I'd like to refer you again to your testimony in the

13 Kordic case, when a question was put to you concerning units or parts of

14 units operating individually. And the question which was put to you was:

15 "Did you obtain clear information of which commander, regardless

16 of whether he was from the HVO or from the BH army, was responsible for

17 which particular area?"

18 And your response to this question - and I quote from line 24 of

19 the transcript - your response was:

20 "Furthermore, regarding your question, there was a lot of

21 provincial, local individuals who may have been doing things on their own

22 without the consent, knowledge, or whatever of the hierarchy on both

23 sides."

24 Would that be a fair statement of your experience --

25 A. Yes --

1 Q. -- in Bosnia?

2 A. Yes, it would.

3 Q. With respect to Mr. Alagic, you mentioned in response to a

4 question that his reaction on a daily basis would depend on the pace of

5 the operational scenario, would it?

6 A. Yes, it depended on the situation on the ground. It depended on

7 what was happening, what had happened to him.

8 Q. Now, yesterday when we met and we discussed this question, you

9 made reference to the fact that Commander Alagic was making and doing the

10 best he could in a most difficult and demanding times. Would that be a

11 fair statement?

12 A. Looking at it from his perspective, yes.

13 Q. Let me move on to a quick question concerning something that you

14 referred to in your testimony in the Kordic case, and that was the Convoy

15 of Joy. Do you remember this convoy?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. I would like to quote you in terms of what you mentioned in the

18 Kordic transcript concerning the Convoy of Joy, to see whether you can

19 recall your testimony. The question that was put to you then - and I

20 quote from page 10289 - was as follows:

21 "What did you establish about the circumstances on which the

22 convoy was diverted?"

23 And your answer was: "It was no secret that there was a convoy

24 coming up, as we called it then, at Route Diamond, and it was

25 apprehended, stopped at the Novi Travnik -- Novi Travnik sort of

1 junction, into Novi Travnik by a woman with sort of sticks and goodness

2 knows what. They stopped the whole convoy. We were aware of it, but our

3 mandate prevented us from doing anything at that time. And unfortunately

4 we were sort of caught between a brick and a hard place -- or a rock and

5 a hard place, and as soon as it stopped, a number of drivers were

6 dragged -- taken out of their cabs, and allegedly shot straightaway."

7 Do you recall that this is something that had happened and that

8 people responsible for this event were members of the HVO?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. And going on in this testimony, you referred to the fact that the

11 convoy was then looted and that some vehicles were taken away from this

12 convoy.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall this event? I'd like you to -- yesterday I, having

15 a discussion with you, because you were in Travnik --

16 Sorry, Major, your last response to my question concerning the

17 fact whether you recalled this event is not -- was not recorded in the

18 transcript. So I'll simply put my question again to you, in the sense of

19 were you aware of the fact that the convoy was looted and that some

20 vehicles were actually stolen and taken away from the convoy and all this

21 was committed by members of the HVO?

22 A. Yes, I can confirm that.

23 Q. Yesterday, Major, we discussed because of your presence in

24 Travnik whether you were aware of any kidnappings taking place in Travnik

25 around September/October, and you mentioned to me that you had no

1 recollection of any such events.

2 A. I can't remember, no.

3 Q. And I just have maybe one last question for you, and that was

4 with respect to those Mujahedin that we were referring to. You never

5 spoke to any Mujahedin, did you?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Thank you very much, Major. That concludes my cross-examination.

8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have now concluded

9 my cross-examination on behalf of General Hadzihasanovic. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

11 The other Defence team, do you have any questions?

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

13 do not have any questions for this witness.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Prosecution, any re-examination

15 for this witness?

16 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think I just have one

17 question.

18 Re-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

19 Q. Major Hay, you said that there came a time when you associated

20 the so-called foreigners, Mujahedins, with the 7th Muslim Brigade.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you have the

22 floor.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] This question has already been

24 asked during the examination-in-chief, and I don't see any use for

25 putting this question again to the same witness.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, any

2 re-examination should arise from the cross-examination.

3 I suppose that the other Defence team would like to say something

4 about the same issue.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we would also like to say

6 that the witness has already replied two or three times during the

7 examination-in-chief and during the cross-examination.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: That's just the point, Mr. President. It

9 was raised again in cross-examination and I wanted to clear it up again

10 in re-examination. But if my friends have a problem, then the

11 Prosecution rests. We have no re-examination.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. The first

14 stage is over and the Judges have some questions for you, sir. The Judge

15 who's sitting to my left is going to start.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE SWART: Let me just say a few follow-up questions, Witness,

18 on your visit to the detention centre in the JNA barracks. It seems that

19 you have testified before on the issue in the Kordic case, and that was

20 some years ago, I suppose. I just wonder, what made you go to the

21 Travnik barracks in order to visit the detention centre? Had you any

22 reason for doing so, if you remember?

23 A. I'm sorry, Your Honour, I can't remember specifically. But I

24 would visit the -- Alagic on a daily basis, really. I can't remember

25 whether we were given any specific information or intelligence that -- to

1 have a look there. I can't recall now, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE SWART: So you have hardly any remembrance of the event at

3 all, is my understanding.

4 A. My memory of the events is fading, Your Honour. That was a

5 reminder from the last time I was here.

6 JUDGE SWART: Well, apparently in the -- during your testimony in

7 the Kordic case you have said that you saw HVO soldiers, and today you

8 said "I cannot remember what kind of prisoners they were." I suppose you

9 don't remember why you said that they were HVO soldiers when you

10 testified in the Kordic case?

11 A. Again, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I can't sort of elaborate. I

12 can't remember. I really can't remember now.

13 JUDGE SWART: Well, if you can't remember, you can't remember. I

14 won't blame you for that.

15 The second point that was raised was your meetings with

16 commanders from both sides in which you raised allegations, rumours, that

17 kind of things and submitted them to these commanders, either HVO or

18 ABiH, and you mentioned also the responses you got. Sometimes they were

19 inclined to listen to you; sometimes they were inclined to deny rumours

20 or allegations, or -- you gave a sort of picture of that. My question

21 is: Do you remember specific instances in which you reported rumours or

22 allegations to, for example, Alagic?

23 A. Your Honour, I -- again, now I can't remember specifics, other

24 than a general overview of what may have been happening on a monthly

25 basis regarding rumours of mutilations, body exchanges, prisoner of war

1 conditions. But I can't remember any specifics, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE SWART: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Major, in reply to a question

4 put to you a little while ago concerning Mujahedins spoke about having

5 seen fighters who had been killed. Can you confirm that that was indeed

6 the essence of your reply? Were you present? Were you there? Did you

7 see the Mujahedin who were killed during a battle?

8 A. Yes, I did, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what were the circumstances

10 that brought you to see those bodies? What were the circumstances of

11 that event? What was the occasion? How did you come to see the dead

12 people?

13 A. There were two separate occasions; one where I physically saw the

14 bodies, another one I was given a tape recording by the HVO of an ambush

15 that had just taken place before. The incident where I specifically saw

16 the bodies was at Rastovici, just to the south of Novi Travnik on Route

17 Diamond, as we called the route. There had been an offensive -- the day

18 before, the evening before. I cannot remember exactly now -- where the

19 HVO had repelled an offensive by the ABiH. I can't remember what the

20 objective of the attack was or whatever. But consequently they killed a

21 number of the ABiH or the mercenaries, the foreign Mujahedin. And there

22 was a number of them lying on the ground. There was four or five laid

23 out in one area, and there was about another three, as I say, I think it

24 was a total of eight, on the back of a tractor.

25 And I physically saw the bodies there, and they were definitely

1 of North African, Middle Eastern persuasion. They were not indigenous to

2 Central Bosnia. And if I remember rightly -- I can't remember now the

3 specifics, but they did have sort of paperwork on them. Whether it was

4 identification or not, I cannot remember now, that corroborated this.

5 And for some reason I recall a Ugandan, somebody from Sudan, a

6 Saudi Arabian, if I remember rightly, and there was a whole host of

7 others.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you be more precise about

9 the date when this happened, the day, the month? When was it? What

10 month was it, at least?

11 A. Your Honour, I'm sorry, I can't recall now. It was towards the

12 end of my tour though, and I left sort of end of October/November. It

13 may have been sort of a bracket date, sort of mid-September onwards. I

14 cannot remember specifically, Your Honour. I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And on that day, you just

16 happened to be there? What was the motive of your presence on that spot,

17 on the spot of the battle that had taken place either a few days or a few

18 hours before you arrived there? Why did you go there in the first place?

19 What was the reason?

20 A. I was taken there by the local HVO commanders. I remember Sablic

21 Jeliko telling me that this had happened and they were obviously sort of

22 a couple who were quite proud of what had happened. And, of course, the

23 other side of the corps and everybody there, both sides, were paranoid

24 about allegations of atrocities and things. And I, if I remember

25 rightly, he wanted to sort of show me and prove, you know, that no

1 atrocity had been done to these bodies, no mutilations or anything, so he

2 wanted to show me them.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you well, you

4 were in the area of responsibility of the HVO. So this area us under the

5 control of the HVO. Am I right in thinking that?

6 A. Yes. And I had obviously visited the local HVO commander in Novi

7 Travnik and he'd told me that this had happened, and it was a conflict

8 line just bordering sort of ABiH and HVO territory.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're a professional soldier

10 and you had a technical eye, so to speak. And when you saw four or five

11 bodies lying there, what was the uniform that they had on? Were they

12 civilians? Were they soldiers? Could you describe the appearance of

13 those bodies? As far as you can remember. What about their clothes?

14 A. They were in uniform. They were different from the normal ABiH

15 soldiers that I'd been working with over a period of months in Central

16 Bosnia. They were different. They stood out. They were just more

17 professional and narrowed a small specific incident or item -- the

18 rations that they had, I remember now. They were all equipped the same.

19 There was no real difference between them. They had their sort of

20 rations on them and the same armaments, same uniform, et cetera. They

21 were -- there was something about them. They stood out. They were

22 different. Just more professional.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you see any insignia on

24 their uniforms, any patches? Was there anything specific, in terms of

25 insignia on their uniforms?

1 A. Your Honour, I cannot remember. I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as their weapons are

3 concerned, did you notice any weapons? Were there any weapons lying

4 around them? Or maybe there was a person who was there with you on

5 behalf of the HVO told you that there had been weapons recovered from

6 those bodies. Can you remember?

7 A. If -- I can't remember specifics, but I believe there were

8 weapons. I think it was AK-47s. I can't remember if each one had one or

9 what, but -- there were weapons there.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems that you have already

11 told us that they had some IDs on them. Did you see those IDs? I

12 believe that the HVO soldiers had searched those bodies in order to find

13 some elements of identification. Did you yourself see those documents

14 that had been found on the bodies of those fighters?

15 A. I can't say I didn't. I can't recollect exactly what happened,

16 because incidents -- subsequent incidents took over my presence there and

17 we had to get out of there very quickly because we started coming under

18 fire. But I believe that I was shown some documentation. I can't

19 remember exactly what it is or what it was, but it would have been in the

20 milinfosums from the day that we submitted to our higher formation.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You also said that on another

22 occasion, on the second occasion, you also saw Mujahedin, and you said

23 that there was a video. Could you tell us something about the second

24 occasion on which you saw the Mujahedin.

25 A. I never actually physically saw them, the bodies. All I saw was

1 the aftermath, a -- basically a local sort of camcorder of the event

2 taken by the local HVO, again in Novi Travnik. I believe the

3 circumstances surrounding it were a small 4 by 4 vehicle with four

4 foreign fighters, Mujahedin, had crossed a conflict line by mistake up

5 Route Diamond and had somehow accidentally gone into Novi Travnik. I

6 don't think they realised the danger they were in, but subsequently the

7 local Croats, HVO or whoever in Novi Travnik sent them on a wild goose

8 chase or deliberately put them down a road where they were ambushed. And

9 three of the four individuals were killed in the car, and I believe one

10 of them was taken prisoner or escaped. I can't remember exactly which

11 now. But again, the HVO, although I didn't physically see it, I had the

12 video footage of it and there was documentation and paperwork on that

13 video footage.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And my last

15 question: On a number of occasions you said that they were mercenaries.

16 As you yourself are a professional soldier, what would your definition of

17 a mercenary be? In your opinion, what is a mercenary exactly?

18 A. A mercenary is a -- a soldier who gets paid for -- paid -- sorry.

19 A mercenary is everything that I'm not basically, Your Honour, a soldier

20 of fortune; a soldier who fights for his own ideals or other ideals.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And such a mercenary, in your

22 opinion, can such a mercenary be part of a regular army? Is this

23 something that can happen?

24 A. In a nutshell, no. But what was happening in Central Bosnia at

25 the time, you know, one couldn't really apply a lot of, you know, reality

1 and common sense and stuff to what was going on out there a lot of the

2 time. That's all I can say, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as you also had contact

4 with the HVO, do you know whether the HVO had mercenaries among its

5 troops?

6 A. I have no reason to deny that they didn't. In fact, I believe

7 they may have, yes. But applying the -- sorry, maybe applying the term

8 "mercenary" to what was going on out there, it may be inaccurate, because

9 in my experience it was very difficult to tell, you know, going back to

10 indigenous ethnic groups within Bosnia, it was very difficult to tell the

11 difference between local troops, local militia, and civilians. Everybody

12 carried guns. Everybody had a uniform.

13 JUDGE SWART: Just a few minutes ago you spoke about video

14 footage of the second incident which the HVO showed you. If I recall

15 this well, you said, "I had it in my possession." Now, there is one the

16 list of exhibits a videotape coming apparently from you. Is this the

17 same videotape or not?

18 A. It will be, Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE SWART: It's the same videotape.

20 A. It will be, yes.

21 JUDGE SWART: That is called a "Balkan Winter" or something like

22 that. Could you tell me something about that video?

23 A. It's a compilation of a variety of video footage, both taken by

24 the military media ops when I was out there and also coverage from the

25 BBC reporters who were out there at the time, the whole gamut of sort

1 of -- not necessarily BBC, international media as well. It's unique

2 footage, all compiled onto one tape.

3 JUDGE SWART: So this is not something you made yourself, I

4 understand well?

5 A. No, it's not. It's a compilation that -- I can't remember who --

6 exactly who made them, but the footage of the ambush is on there as well,

7 or the -- just the immediate aftermath of the ambush as well.

8 JUDGE SWART: [Microphone not activated]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 JUDGE SWART: I'm sorry, the HVO video we talked about was given

11 to you?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 JUDGE SWART: And you yourself made this compilation of ...?

14 A. No. Sablic Jeliko gave it to me somehow. I can't remember how I

15 actually got it onto the tape. I think media ops or the BBC helped out

16 there and put it onto the tape.

17 JUDGE SWART: But you did the compilation yourself or was that

18 someone else from the BritBat?

19 A. No. It was -- it was the milinfocell, the media ops cell part of

20 the BritBat who did one tape, and the BBC did another tape. So I've got

21 two tapes.

22 JUDGE SWART: And when did you give it to the Prosecution, the

23 tape?

24 A. I haven't given it to this Prosecution.

25 JUDGE SWART: You didn't give it to the Prosecution.

1 A. No. It was already -- it was from the Kordic trial. It was

2 already here in The Hague.

3 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Did you personally see or

5 view this videotape? Did you see any of the excerpts?

6 A. Sorry, did I see any of the what?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you see any of the

8 excerpts, extracts from the video? Did you see the video?

9 A. Yes, I did. I've watched the videos, yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you are telling us that it

11 consists of two parts. One was made by the media ops from the army; I

12 assume that that relates to the British Army. And the other part was

13 compiled by the BBC. So there are two parts that this video consists of,

14 the part from the army media ops and the part from the BBC.

15 A. That's right, Your Honour. There are actually two videos, two

16 separate videos.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any further questions

19 from the Defence? If so, we will have a break and we will resume after

20 the break.

21 Very well. It's five to 11.00. We will now adjourn and we will

22 resume at twenty-five past 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume, and

1 counsel may take the floor.

2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Bourgon:

4 Q. Major, I just have a few additional questions in response to the

5 questions which were asked by the Trial Chamber, and I'd like to begin

6 with the issue first of the detainees you saw in the Travnik barracks,

7 and I fully understand that of course your memory might be fading after

8 more than ten years. But if I would say to you that in the statement

9 that you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1997 and in 2001 you

10 did not mention whether these people were either members of the HVO or

11 members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, would that be a true

12 statement?

13 A. Sorry, I can just clarify that I didn't mention --

14 Q. That you did not in both statements provided to the Office of the

15 Prosecution, you did not mention whether these detainees were either

16 members of the HVO or members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 A. I cannot remember exactly what I stated now. I can't remember at

18 the moment, now, who they were. I cannot remember what I said in my

19 statement. But I think my obvious conclusion at the time was that they

20 would have been HVO, given that they were in an ABiH detention centre.

21 That's the only sort of common-sense application I can put onto it.

22 Q. Now, what you do know, however, is that there was one detainee

23 whom you do remember, and that was Mr. Berberovic, who was definitely a

24 member of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 A. Yes. And he was outside -- he was up walking --

1 Q. And you do remember seeing 15 to 20 detainees well treated in an

2 area where there was some type of medical facilities.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you did not speak to any of those detainees.

5 A. No.

6 Q. And you say that Commander Alagic must have told you who they

7 were but you don't remember.

8 A. I'm sure he must have, yes. Yes. It would make sense.

9 Q. If I move to the incidents where you say that you saw some dead

10 bodies. I'd like to -- first to the first incident, the one which is on

11 a video. Can you confirm that you were not present when the events

12 pictured on this video took place?

13 A. Correct. I confirm that.

14 Q. And that what you recall from this event is that there were four

15 foreigners in a vehicle who drove by mistake in HVO territory.

16 A. Yes. That is what we believed happened and also confirmed by the

17 HVO. That's what they told us.

18 Q. And that one of those people stopped and asked for information,

19 probably because he did not know where he was, and then they were shot on

20 sight.

21 A. That is basically the gist of what -- that is what we were told

22 by the HVO happened. They weren't necessarily shot on sight. They were

23 set down a road where there was an ambush set up for them, supposedly.

24 That's what we were told.

25 Q. Now, Major, you don't know who these people were, their

1 ethnicity.

2 A. I never saw them physically, just what was on that video footage.

3 Q. And you don't know what they were doing driving this vehicle.

4 A. No.

5 Q. And you don't know since when they had been in Bosnia.

6 A. No.

7 Q. And in fact, you don't know any other details about this incident

8 other than you saw four dead bodies.

9 A. Other than what I saw on the video footage and what the HVO had

10 told us, which ...

11 Q. If I move to the second incident, Major. You spoke about an

12 offensive operation being conducted towards Novi Travnik. That's what

13 we're talking about.

14 A. That's right. Specifically the village of Rastovici, just at the

15 south of Novi Travnik.

16 Q. Now, you mentioned in response to a question from the Presiding

17 Judge that you went to see the local HVO commander and that he took you

18 towards those bodies; is that correct?

19 A. That's right, yes.

20 Q. Would you recall, Major, that in fact the fighting had stopped

21 and when you were taken to these bodies it was the next day?

22 A. Yes. The time frame, I can't specifically remember. But also --

23 I'm sorry to bring this up now, but I do remember at the same time there

24 was one to have UN convoys the same incident -- the same conflict, one of

25 the UNHCR drivers or one of the -- I can't remember specifically what

1 convoy it was. A civilian driver had been killed as well and his vehicle

2 was in -- side of the road.

3 Q. And you mentioned this in your testimony on the Kordic case where

4 this driver was killed by a stray bullet.

5 A. He was killed. I don't know -- I can't really accurately say

6 whether it was a stray bullet, deliberately, or what. But he was killed,

7 as I believe -- if I remember rightly, told by certainly the HVO that he

8 had been killed as the ABiH offensive had been launched.

9 Q. Now, when you saw those bodies, would it be fair to say that you

10 stayed there a very short time because you immediately came under

11 small-arms fire, which was then followed by mortar fire, and that you

12 were to extract from this area very rapidly?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. It was a very tense and scary moment, in fact, when they started

15 shooting --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- at the place where you were.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were -- the bodies were wearing

20 some type of uniform but you can't recall, in answer to a question from

21 the Presiding Judge, that they had any unit patches.

22 A. I can't recall. I'm sorry.

23 Q. And you don't know if the place you were taken where you saw the

24 bodies, whether this was in fact the place where the bodies had been

25 killed or whether those bodies had been scattered from other areas.

1 A. It was my interpretation from what had happened on the ground

2 according to what we were briefed by the HVO where we had seen the

3 build-up of these troops the preceding sort of few days, a week or so, it

4 was in or around that area.

5 Q. That area in general.

6 A. The area in general.

7 Q. But you don't know if it was exactly whether the bodies were to

8 you.

9 A. No. No.

10 Q. And you mentioned that there were some weapons, but you don't

11 know if there were enough weapons for each body. So you can't recall the

12 specifics about the weapons.

13 A. I can't remember the exact detail of the weapons, but there were

14 weapons there.

15 Q. And as far as this fighting which went on in that time frame, you

16 did not know either how many people had been killed and belonging to

17 which army.

18 A. No. I can't remember getting any detailed information on exactly

19 how many had been killed, no.

20 Q. And about the type of wounds that these bodies had, you never had

21 time to look at those wounds, because it was such a short time.

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And you don't know, if I suggest to you, that when these people

24 actually died, the time of death. You did not know.

25 A. I'm an expert on this, but I remember looking at the eyes and

1 they were not dead that long. I'm not talking days here.

2 Q. And in fact, even if you look at those bodies today, you cannot

3 remember if they were wearing beards or not.

4 A. Yes. There was a couple with beards.

5 Q. Maybe some with, some without?

6 A. Yes. If I remember rightly, yes.

7 Q. And you have no idea what happened to these bodies once you

8 extracted from this moment.

9 A. No, I don't know what happened subsequently.

10 Q. And you are aware, Major, that propaganda was used as a very

11 effective weapon by the HVO. Are you aware of that?

12 A. It was used as a very effective weapon by all belligerent sides,

13 I think.

14 Q. Thank you very much, Major.

15 MR. BOURGON: I have no further questions.

16 [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team, you

18 have the floor.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Defence counsel.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I conclude that you don't have

22 any questions for this witness, although your mic was not on when you

23 said that.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You

25 are right, we don't have any questions for this witness.

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 In light of the questions put to the witness by the Judges and by

3 the Defence, would the Prosecution have one or two questions to put to

4 the witness, Mrs. Benjamin?

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no

6 questions to this witness.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Benjamin.

8 Major, your testimony is over. You have replied to the questions

9 put to you by the Prosecution, by the Defence, and by the Judges. We

10 thank you for having come to The Hague to testify about these facts. We

11 wish you a safe trip home, and we wish you a lot of success in your

12 current position with the army.

13 We thank you once again. I would like to ask the usher to

14 accompany you out of the courtroom.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are over with what we had

17 scheduled for today. Would the Prosecution like to raise any issues at

18 this point in time?

19 Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I will simply alert Your

21 Honours and the Defence to the fact that the witness scheduled for

22 tomorrow in fact will be testifying tomorrow, and we do, Mr. President,

23 at this time have copies of Prosecution Exhibit 11, both in the original

24 B/C/S and with the English translation, again consisting of the cover

25 page and the English translations of pages 24 and 25, as previously

1 discussed this morning.

2 And the Prosecution has nothing further for today, Mr. President.

3 Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

5 At this stage, would the Defence lawyer have anything to say?

6 Mr. Bourgon or Mrs. Residovic? I am giving you the floor for anything

7 you may wish to raise.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, we don't have any issues to

9 raise at this stage, Your Honour. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?

11 Mr. Ibrisimovic, is this anything you would like to say to the Trial

12 Chamber?

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

14 don't have any questions or issues to raise today.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 We are adjourned for today. Tomorrow we are scheduled to start

17 with the witness Mats Torping, and on Friday we will finish the week with

18 the cross-examination of Mr. Garrod, who started his testimony a little

19 while ago.

20 Thank you very much. And I invite you to come back at 9.00

21 tomorrow, hoping there won't be any technical problems tomorrow morning.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.46 a.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of

24 May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

25