Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8336

1 Tuesday, 1 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the

10 appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,

12 counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the Prosecution,

13 Matthias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager, Mr. Hasan Younis.

14 Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the appearances for

16 Defence.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President, good

18 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina

19 Residovic, Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Alexis Demirdjian, our legal

20 assistant. Thank you.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

23 Mulalic, our legal assistant.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll now resume

25 after the weekend break. The Trial Chamber would like to greet everyone

Page 8337

1 present in the courtroom, members of the Prosecution, Defence counsel,

2 the accused, and everyone else present in the courtroom.

3 We have a witness scheduled for today. But before we hear this

4 witness, we would like to clarify the issue of broadcasting videotape.

5 The Trial Chamber has deliberated on the matter and we believe that as of

6 Wednesday, we should broadcast as a matter of priority the videotapes

7 for which we already have a transcript available. So the videotapes that

8 have transcripts are concerned [as interpreted], and these videos should

9 be broadcast, should be shown, as a matter of priority. The Prosecution

10 should then provide us a transcript of the videos for which there are no

11 official transcripts for the moment. They should do so in good time.

12 This might pose a technical problem for the Prosecution, but if that is

13 the case it would be sufficient for the Prosecution to view the videotape

14 themselves and then they could use someone to take down what is said in

15 the video to form a transcript. This could then be provided to the

16 Judges before the video or the videos are broadcast. This is how we

17 would like these videos to be broadcast. This is a procedure we would

18 like to follow.

19 Mr. Mundis, do you see any difficulties in proceeding in this

20 matter? Do you see any difficulties that might arise as a result of this

21 decision?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could briefly consult with my

23 colleague, Mr. Neuner, who is present here in the courtroom. He has

24 actually been responsible for the videotapes. If I could just have a

25 moment to consult with him, please.

Page 8338

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, Your Honours, the Chamber's order

3 clarifying the previous order with respect to the videotapes does not

4 seem to pose a problem as we're sitting here in court today. It appears

5 as though the videos which we have selected for viewing tomorrow do, in

6 fact, have transcripts. We are -- as we speak, our team members are in

7 the process of ensuring that there are sufficient photocopies of the

8 transcripts for everyone in and around the courtroom, including the

9 interpretation booths. Because of the large number of transcripts and

10 the fact that we need to produce 11 sets of them, we may not have that

11 available by close of business today. We will, of course, endeavour to

12 ensure that everyone has a copy of the transcripts first thing in the

13 morning tomorrow to the extent that we have transcripts.

14 I should also point out, Mr. President, that there are a few of

15 the videos which do not have anyone really audibly speaking on them. So

16 there aren't obviously transcripts for those. If I could -- also just to

17 inform the Chamber and the Defence, we are -- we will provide in effect a

18 spreadsheet indicating which tapes and which segments of those tapes

19 we're planning on broadcasting. As of right now, we have 189 minutes -

20 that's a little bit more than three hours - prepared for viewing

21 tomorrow. That comes -- that material comes from a number of the

22 videotapes. And as I indicated last Friday, those are for the most part

23 excerpts and selected portions of tapes, although a couple of the tapes

24 will be played -- four of the tapes will be shown in their entirety as

25 part of that three hours and a few moments of tape that we have scheduled

Page 8339

1 for tomorrow. We will, of course, be in a position tomorrow to address

2 tapes to be shown Thursday and Friday if the Trial Chamber in fact does

3 want to view tapes for all three days after today of this week. But I

4 don't believe it's a problem, Mr. President, with respect to the

5 transcripts. Although again, it might not physically be in everyone's

6 hands by close of business today. We are, in fact, working on that, and

7 Mr. Neuner will actually be with your leave departing the courtroom in a

8 few moments in order to oversee that project.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Mundis. The

10 Trial Chamber thanks you for your response. You've addressed the main

11 concern, and that was to have transcripts for these videos. Naturally,

12 if there is nothing audible on certain videos, there won't be any

13 transcripts; that's obvious. You said you have prepared four videos for

14 tomorrow, and you will be able to provide everyone, the Judges included,

15 with transcripts of these videotapes.

16 Is there anything that the Defence would like to say?

17 Mr. Bourgon.

18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good

19 day, Madam Judge; good day, Your Honours.

20 Mr. President, at this point in time, the Defence would like

21 certain clarifications regarding the procedure we will be following when

22 viewing the videos. In the past, we have already expressed our position,

23 and we have stated that if we have no information on how a video was

24 produced, if we don't know who made the video, if we don't know who

25 compiled the video, who made a sort of collage, if we don't know who may

Page 8340

1 have written the text that appears, if we don't know who's speaking on

2 the video, if we know nothing about the images on the video, if we don't

3 when they were taken, if we don't know in which year, if we don't know

4 where the video was made, in our opinion the Defence believes that he

5 should have a minimum of information before we view such videos. We

6 don't want to be carried away by viewing a video that might seem very

7 interesting, but has no reliability whatsoever.

8 Mr. President, when the Trial Chamber rendered its decision on

9 viewing these videos, it was our understanding that the Trial Chamber was

10 requesting that the Prosecution present a witness who would appear at

11 least to authenticate the video. But as things stand, Mr. President, we

12 have no information to that effect. We believe it would be premature to

13 start viewing these videos without having the minimum information that we

14 require. I don't have all the legal arguments at hand, Mr. President,

15 but tomorrow morning I could present the Defence's arguments for one

16 final time with regard to this matter because in our opinion it's a very

17 important matter. It doesn't concern the contents of the video; it

18 concerns the reliability of the video. We're concerned that all

19 decisions taken by the Chamber should be taken on the basis of evidence

20 that has minimum reliability and whose contents have minimum reliability.

21 In this case, Mr. President, it is our opinion that if we have no witness

22 to authenticate the video, this cast doubts on the reliability. We need

23 someone to appear before the Court in order to provide this information

24 and any additional information that might support the evidence that has

25 already been admitted.

Page 8341












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8342

1 In summary, Mr. President, the Defence would like some

2 clarifications from the Trial Chamber. Does the Trial Chamber believe

3 that a video can be admitted into evidence if we have no information as

4 to the source of the video, as to how it was made, or if we have no

5 information about the contents? We would like to know where the contents

6 come from and what it's supposed to represent. We would simply like to

7 know whether the Trial Chamber believes such evidence could be admitted.

8 If you do believe that it can be admitted into evidence, we're prepared

9 to view the video. But in our opinion, the law does not permit such

10 video material to be admitted into evidence if we don't have a minimum of

11 information. Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

13 MR. DIXON: Just one additional point, and that is if I could my

14 learned friend from the Prosecution whether the spreadsheet from the

15 videos could be available today before the end of Court so we're able to

16 view that this evening and prepare. Because our one request at the very

17 least tomorrow would be that we are able to respond to any of the videos

18 that are shown and present arguments as to why those particular videos

19 should or should not be admissible as evidence in the case. It would

20 assist greatly if we could have that information before the close of

21 court today. I'm grateful, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon, with regard

23 to what you have said -- I'll now let Mr. Mundis take the floor again.

24 The Trial Chamber spent hours deliberating on the matter of videos. Our

25 decision was quite clear. We said that these videos would be viewed, and

Page 8343

1 that after viewing them the Trial Chamber would reach a final decision on

2 the admissibility into evidence, on the admissibility of these videos.

3 The Trial Chamber also said that having viewed the videos, if it seemed

4 necessary to call a witness, we would naturally reserve the right to call

5 such a witness, a witness who could come to authenticate the video. As

6 you know, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence state that when the

7 Prosecution compiles a list of witnesses and exhibits, the Defence, who

8 has a list of exhibits, should at that point in time state or make any

9 legal comments it has about the documentary evidence listed. When this

10 list is compiled -- when the list was compiled, the Defence didn't make

11 any legal comments. I reminded you of this a few days ago. You made

12 some legal comments a few days ago. We took note of it.

13 On page 4, line 19 and after -- and onwards, there was a series

14 of questions put. I believe that the Prosecution, before the video is

15 broadcast, will provide all the necessary information about the date when

16 the video was made, about the author of the video, about the manner in

17 which they managed to obtain the video, and about whom they obtained it

18 from. So they will answer the questions that you put on page 4 from line

19 19 onwards. The Trial Chamber mentioned how we would proceed before the

20 video was broadcast. The Prosecution can address your issues, the issues

21 that I have referred to, and then everyone will view the video. At that

22 point in time, the Defence will be able to take the floor to repeat what

23 they have just said, what you have just said, if necessary. And then the

24 Trial Chamber will deliberate in light of the comments of both parties.

25 So roughly speaking, this is the procedure we have decided to follow. We

Page 8344

1 made this decision a long time ago.

2 Mr. Mundis, in light of what has been said, is there anything you

3 would like to say? You may take the floor.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I do, in fact, have the

5 spreadsheet to which I referred earlier. And if the usher could assist,

6 perhaps this could be distributed right now, and I can make a few

7 explanatory comments for the benefits of the Chamber and the Defence.

8 While that's being done, Mr. President, with respect to the

9 comments that Your Honour just made, of course the Prosecution will be in

10 a position to provide the full details with respect to each segment of

11 the videotape, of course, to the extent we have all of that information.

12 We will certainly provide the Chamber and the Defence with specific

13 information concerning each excerpt or full tape that's broadcast

14 immediately prior to that segment or tape being broadcast. I will inform

15 the Chamber and Defence that we do not have all the specific details

16 about each and every tape; however, that information which is in our

17 possession, we will, of course, describe prior to showing the tape.

18 If I could turn very quickly to the spreadsheet which has been

19 distributed. The first column under "order" sets forth the categories,

20 if you will, for which these tapes are relevant. The ERN number sets

21 forth, obviously, the number of the tape. The third column describes the

22 length of the entire tape. And the fourth column indicates the amount of

23 time, or the excerpt if it's a lengthy tape, which will be broadcast.

24 So, for example, the first tape listed is a total of 4 minutes and we

25 will play that entire tape. The second tape runs for 1 hour, 14 minutes.

Page 8345

1 We will play a 6-minute excerpt with the times indicated so that the

2 Defence has the opportunity to review the 6 minutes that we are proposing

3 to show from that tape, et cetera. You'll see that we've -- when we have

4 excerpted material from lengthy tapes, the precise timings where those

5 excerpts can be found on the original tapes is indicated on the

6 spreadsheet. And again, if you total up the bold numbers in the fourth

7 column, that will get you to the figure of 189 minutes which is slightly

8 longer than three hours.

9 You'll note, Mr. President, that in effect there are 11 sequences

10 set forth. These 11 sequences come from six videotapes -- excuse me,

11 eight videotapes. We are planning of shows four of those tapes in total,

12 and four of those tapes we are showing excerpts from, a total of seven

13 excerpts from those four videotapes. And that is really what the

14 spreadsheet indicates, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence has the

16 spreadsheet containing all the information that has been mentioned. The

17 Defence has understood that there are videotapes which won't be broadcast

18 in their entirety. The Prosecution will select certain excerpts to be

19 broadcast. But as the Defence has seen the videos, I assume that if the

20 Defence believes that the excerpts don't represent the truth contained in

21 the videos, in such a case the Defence can request that such sections be

22 shown. You've already seen these videos, whereas the Judges haven't.

23 But as the Defence has already seen the videos, if you believe you should

24 draw the attention of the Judges to a certain section, you should inform

25 us of the fact. We'll then see or view the entire tape. This

Page 8346

1 spreadsheet will enable us to find our bearings. Mr. Mundis has said

2 that before a video is broadcast, he will address the concerns that you

3 raised with regard to the reliability of the material. If you encounter

4 any difficulties while we are following this procedure, you will inform

5 us of the problem, and the Judges will decide on the action to be taken.

6 We will now call the witness into the courtroom. Madam Usher,

7 could you call the witness into the courtroom, please.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I could while the witness is being

9 brought into the courtroom, address Your Honours with respect to one

10 issue concerning this witness. During the proofing session of this

11 witness earlier this morning, he indicated that the level of detail

12 that's contained in his written statement, it is very difficult for him

13 to recall with a high degree of specificity. The witness, Mr. President,

14 is a relatively young 67 years of age and of course is testifying about

15 events 11 years ago. I spoke with the Defence prior to this afternoon's

16 session. It was my intention to tender the witness's written statement

17 pursuant to Rule 89 (D) and then to allow him to be cross-examined by the

18 Defence. The Defence proposed another course of action, primarily

19 because the witness has a diary, if you will, of the events in question.

20 The Defence have proposed that the witness be permitted to consult his

21 diary during his direct examination. I also explained to them that I may

22 at times be required to lead the evidence of this witness, and the

23 Defence indicated that they would not necessarily object to that

24 procedure being used.

25 I simply indicate this, Mr. President, because if I have to

Page 8347












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8348

1 refresh the witness's recollection by taking him to his written witness

2 statement, his direct examination will be substantially longer than would

3 be the case, obviously, if I were permitted to lead him and he were

4 permitted to refer to his diary. Of course, the other alternative would

5 be we would lay the foundation and then seek to tender his written

6 statement pursuant to Rule 89 (D), and then he would be cross-examined by

7 the Defence and questioned by Your Honours.

8 I simply raise this because again I anticipate that when this

9 witness was selected, it was partially due to the high level of specifics

10 in his statement, many of which he is not in a position at this time to

11 recall with a high degree of specificity. I leave it to Your Honours in

12 terms of which of those two options might be most useful for the Trial

13 Chamber. I clearly do not have a copy of his written witness statement

14 in French, so that may or may not have a bearing on a decision. But we

15 are prepared to pursue either of these two courses of action in order to

16 keep the direct examination to a bare minimum in terms of time.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will give the

18 floor to the Defence now. But according to what we have understood, you

19 are saying that this witness who is relative young as he is 67 years old,

20 no longer remembers certain facts very accurately, certain events that

21 took place over 10 years ago. And as a result, he has his diary with

22 him. By consulting this diary, it would be easier for him to answer the

23 questions put to him. In addition, you are suggesting that in order to

24 refresh the witness's memory, you would be grateful if you were given

25 leave to ask him more precise questions. You say that you have consulted

Page 8349

1 the Defence about this matter, and the Defence has agreed or has reached

2 an agreement with you as to how you should proceed. Naturally, the Trial

3 Chamber is always in favour of the parties reaching an agreement, and

4 we'll try to see what the situation is by asking the Defence to state

5 what its position is.

6 Mr. Bourgon, or Mrs. Residovic.

7 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In fact

8 we did confer with our colleague from the Prosecution a little earlier

9 on. And we have also been able to meet the witness and to speak to him

10 very briefly. And we realised that perhaps there might be certain

11 difficulties as far as the witness's memory is concerned. And for this

12 reason, and in the interests of justice, Mr. President, we would agree

13 with the Prosecution that they should be allowed to refresh the witness's

14 memory and that the witness should be allowed to use his notes. We also

15 agree that the Prosecution could lead the witness to a certain extent in

16 order to be able to proceed as rapidly as possible.

17 And Mr. President, this would also enable us to cross-examine the

18 witness and take less time doing so than if we cross-examined the witness

19 pursuant to Rule 189 [as interpreted] -- or rather, it would be more

20 rapid than tendering the witness's statement into evidence pursuant to

21 this rule.

22 We think it would be good if we could have a copy of the

23 witness's notes. We don't know if his notes in Swedish or in English.

24 If the witness's notes in Swedish, we'll proceed without his notes. But

25 if his notes are in English, having a copy would enable us to proceed

Page 8350

1 more rapidly, Mr. President. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team?

3 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. We had spoken to the

4 Prosecution before about this matter. In order to speed up proceedings,

5 there's no objection on our part, if the witness does require his notes

6 that he be entitled to refer to them. It might be that he doesn't need

7 them for many issues, certainly issues of a more general nature. But if

8 there are to be specific questions and he can't remember through the

9 questions being put, then there's no objection to him looking at his

10 diary or his notebook. Thank you, Your Honours.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one matter I'd like to

13 address: As far as the written statement is concerned, if we accepted

14 the solution that has been suggested, if we agree to have the witness

15 consult his notes and if these notes are in English, we could show the

16 notes to the Defence, it would then not be necessary to tender the

17 written statement into evidence.

18 Mr. Mundis, is this what you are suggesting that we do?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. It would be an either/or. We

20 would not obviously seek to tender the witness's written statement in the

21 event he were to testify primarily orally, even though he may on occasion

22 have to refer to his notebook. We would in that case not be seeking to

23 tender his written statement pursuant to Rule 89 (D). We would only do

24 that if we weren't allowed to lead the witness occasionally and to allow

25 him to refer to his diary for his direct examination.

Page 8351

1 Let me also very briefly mention two other things: First of all,

2 the Prosecution does not have the witness's diary, nor did we make a copy

3 of that at any point in time. I am not sure if the witness's diary is in

4 English or Swedish. I'm also assuming that if he is to be allowed to use

5 his diary, we should inform Madam Usher because my guess is he probably

6 left it in the waiting room and may not bring the diary into the

7 courtroom because I specifically advised him that he was not allowed to

8 use his diary unless, of course, Your Honours permitted that. So he

9 might not actually have it in his hands. I assume he did bring it with

10 him, though, to the witness waiting room.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. This is how we will

12 proceed. If necessary, we will ask the witness to fetch his notebook.

13 We will then see whether his notes are in Swedish or in English. If the

14 diary is in English, then if the witness agrees we will show the notes to

15 both parties and then we will start with the examination of the witness.

16 Very well, let's call the witness into the courtroom now, please.

17 JUDGE SWART: I understood, but maybe I'm wrong, but you would

18 also like to use his written statement in order to refresh his memory.

19 Is that correct?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Your Honour, I'm not actually planning on doing that

21 unless it's absolutely clear that his diary is of no assistance. The

22 witness explained to me this morning when I met with him how his

23 statement was written up when he met with the investigator. They

24 actually sat down together with the witness's diary and used, took many

25 parts of the diary, particularly the dates and information for specific

Page 8352

1 dates, and incorporated that into his written statement. So my

2 understanding from discussing it with the witness is actually that the

3 diary formed the basis for the written witness statement. So if he has

4 got his diary, I don't think he would need to be referred to his written

5 statement. But if there were gaps, then again, I may need to refresh his

6 memory based on the information contained in his written witness

7 statement which, of course, the Defence has copies of.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, could you call the

9 witness into the courtroom now. But could you tell him to come with his

10 notebook.

11 Mr. Bourgon.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

13 four documents to tender with regard to the other witness, Martin Garrod.

14 I don't know if you would want me to do this straightaway or after this

15 next witness. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll do it afterwards.

17 [The witness entered court]


19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. I'd just

20 like to check that you can hear everyone, the interpretation. And if you

21 are able to hear, please say yes, I can hear.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called by the

24 Prosecution as witness, and in the coming minutes you're going to be

25 asked to take the solemn declaration. Before you take the solemn

Page 8353












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8354

1 declaration, I would like you to identify yourself. So could you please

2 give us your name and surname, your date of birth, place of birth, and

3 nationality, please.

4 THE WITNESS: My nationality is Swedish. And I was born the

5 2nd of August 1937. My name is Torbjorn Junhov.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your profession or

7 what post do you occupy? What is your job at present?

8 THE WITNESS: At present I am a pensioner, retired from the

9 military service.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You have completed your

11 professional military career with what rank?

12 THE WITNESS: Colonel.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what function did you

14 occupy in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 THE WITNESS: I started as a monitor attached to the original --

16 what do you call it? In Zenica. I started as a team member, and then

17 I ...

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

19 Have you already testified before a national tribunal or an

20 international tribunal or is this the first time that you are giving

21 testimony?

22 THE WITNESS: I was here in 1998. And that's the only case I

23 have been in.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you remember the case you

25 testified in? And were you a Prosecution witness or a Defence witness?

Page 8355

1 THE WITNESS: I was a Prosecution witness. And the case was

2 allegation against the commander or the chief of the prison in Kacuni.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall now ask you

4 to take the solemn declaration. Read from the card that the usher will

5 show you.

6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the

11 Prosecution, I should like to give you some information with respect to

12 the proceedings here this afternoon and your testimony. You are going to

13 first be answering questions put to you by the representative of the

14 Prosecution in the person of Mr. Mundis, who is sitting to your right.

15 And once he has completed his questions, you will be asked to respond.

16 And once he has completed all his questions, the Defence counsel will be

17 asking you questions, too. And they are sitting to your left. I think

18 that you have already met them while preparing today's testimony or

19 taking part in the courtroom here.

20 Once you have heard questions from both parties, the Judges might

21 wish you to ask you additional questions. And the Judges, as I say, can

22 also ask. So after the Defence has asked questions, the Prosecution has

23 the right to redirect, and then the Judges might wish to ask you

24 questions.

25 But I should like to ask you to make pauses between question and

Page 8356

1 answer, and then they will be a pause before the Judges ask their

2 questions, if they need to do so.

3 You have taken the solemn declaration to speak the truth, which

4 of course excludes all false testimony. I should just like to remind the

5 witness, as this is my job, that this -- should you not speak the truth,

6 then this will entail sanctions by the Tribunal. And there is another

7 ruling - but this does not apply to you - that a witness can always

8 refuse to answer a question if they consider that their answer might be

9 incriminating. In that case, the Chamber can ask the witness to answer

10 the question nonetheless, but that they guarantee him immunity for the

11 testimony he gives.

12 The Prosecution has informed the Chamber that the facts that

13 you're going to testify about span a period of 10 years, and that of

14 course you might have forgotten certain details that are contained in

15 your written statement. The Prosecution has informed the Chamber that

16 you have in your possession a diary tracing, if I can put it that way,

17 the events as they came to pass, the events that you wrote down in that

18 diary. Now, we can see that you have something beside you and we would

19 like to ask you whether that notebook is in Swedish or in English? The

20 entries, are they in Swedish or in English?

21 THE WITNESS: It's mixed.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mixed. Very well.

23 Now, could you take the diary out of the case it's in. Is it a

24 lengthy book? How many pages, would you say?

25 THE WITNESS: I have -- the diary is day-by-day notes from my

Page 8357

1 arrival in the beginning of April and ends up on the 21st of June. And I

2 also have another notebook, what I call the "black book" with notes from

3 the same period.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the black book, is that in

5 English, Swedish, or mixed again?

6 THE WITNESS: It's also mixed.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you mind if you give us

8 those books for a moment so that the Prosecution and Defence counsels can

9 take a look at them, at the black-book notebook and the diary, to

10 facilitate with the questioning? Would you have anything against having

11 Madam Usher take the two notebooks to show them to the Prosecution and

12 the Defence counsel before we start the examination-in-chief? And of

13 course, if you need to do so later on, then you'll be able to consult

14 them.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have nothing against that. But I would like

16 to inform you that during the investigations that lasted for I think two

17 or three days, the investigator from the Tribunal together with me, we

18 went through all these notes and all these notes are included in my

19 written testimony. Not all, but the most essential of them.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the procedure is such

21 that it is purely oral. So the written statement was not a priori given

22 to witnesses for the purpose of them answering the questions posed; in

23 theory, the witness is expected to answer questions without looking at

24 any document, including his written statement. Now, of course, in

25 particular cases such as your own, you do have in your possession these

Page 8358

1 two notebooks which will assist you in finding your way in responding to

2 the questions.

3 So the Defence wish to have a look at those documents. Now, do

4 you have anything against us showing the Defence counsel the black-book

5 notebook and the other one, and they will hand it back to you

6 immediately?


8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Usher, would

9 you please take the two documents and show them to the counsel. Thank

10 you.

11 Yes, Mr. Bourgon.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

13 procedure has not been perhaps explained as clearly as possible. Perhaps

14 we could have a photocopy.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If we need to photocopy this,

16 we'll have to adjourn, and that will take a long time. At least an hour.

17 So you can take your time to have a look at the two documents as they're

18 handed to you.

19 Of course, everything that is in Swedish, you won't be able to

20 understand. But...

21 THE WITNESS: I can assist.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as the witness has just

23 said, he is ready and willing to assist.

24 Mr. Junhov, your two notebooks, how many pages would you say in

25 total in them?

Page 8359












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8360

1 THE WITNESS: It's three months, and notes for almost every day.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how many pages would you

3 say? 50? 100? 200?

4 THE WITNESS: Around 150, I think.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] 150 pages, you say. Because

6 there is yet another solution and that is to photocopy them. But then,

7 of course, the photocopy would mean that you agree to the existence of a

8 photocopy.

9 THE WITNESS: I can see no obstacle or hinder for that. It's a

10 question of time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

12 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that if we

13 look at the three months, there are two pages for one day, at least 100

14 pages. So if we had them, this would be very useful. And of course, the

15 witness could keep the notebooks.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think the best course would

17 be to make a photo -- make photocopies of them, which would mean an

18 adjournment of 15 minutes. And we're going to ask the Registrar to help

19 us out, to have four photocopies made, one for the Prosecution, one set

20 for the -- or rather, two sets for the two Defence teams, and one set of

21 photocopies for the Chamber, for the Judges. So we're going to adjourn

22 for 15 minutes, which will give us enough time to photocopy the

23 notebooks, and we will reconvene in 15 minutes' time.

24 --- Break taken at 3.03 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 3.28 p.m.

Page 8361

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to give the

2 notebooks back to the witness now, these documents, along with the

3 photocopy. The Chamber doesn't need the photocopy at present. So now I

4 hope that everybody has received a set of photocopies which will allow

5 the parties to put their questions.

6 And having said that, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Mundis

7 without further ado, and of course we have set the frameworks for the

8 general questioning and examination-in-chief.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Examined by Mr. Mundis:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Junhov.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. You told us in response to one of the preliminary question by the

14 Trial Chamber you had a career in the military. Can you tell us, please,

15 which branch of the Swedish military you served in.

16 A. I started at 19 years old in 1956. I volunteered for the Swedish

17 Air Force and got training as a navigator. And after a number of years

18 in flying service, I was appointed to the schools and took my officer

19 degree in 1964. And after that, I served in different units up until

20 1968 when I went to the War and Staff College for three years' studies.

21 And during the 1970s, I served in the Swedish military headquarters

22 dealing with studies in long-term planning, cooperation with the civilian

23 defence and these kind of questions.

24 Then I had a period of service in a unit, and also in a regional

25 staff as an operational officer. And for four years in the second part

Page 8362

1 of the 1980s I was a professor at the Staff and War College. And I was a

2 professor responsible for strategy, security policy, military history,

3 and human rights. And then again some years of service in the regional

4 military staff as head of the operational part of the staff; and then

5 back to the military academy as a professor where we trained mostly

6 civilian officers within the Swedish organisation that is called the

7 total defence. That has very much to do with nongovernmental

8 organisation, cooperation in wartime, and how to cope with the different

9 problems that occurs in the wartime.

10 And then after that session, I was back again in the regional

11 staff up until the spring 1993 when I was asked by the military

12 headquarters if I could go as a civilian monitor to the ECMM operation in

13 former Yugoslavia. So I agreed to that and served there for three

14 months. And then when I came back, I have been occupied mostly with

15 teaching people from the Baltic states within the framework of the

16 Partnership For Peace agreement with Swedish authorities and our

17 neighbours. And then I retired 1997. And now I'm running a company

18 dealing with -- I am an editor, local history books and so on.

19 Q. Mr. Junhov, I'd like to focus your attention now on the period of

20 time when you were an ECMM monitor. Can you tell us what kind of

21 specialised briefings or training that you had prior to your deployment

22 as an ECMM monitor.

23 A. Shortly after I was appointed as a monitor, we were called up.

24 We were a group of, if I remember, eight Swedish officers who were

25 planning to go to former Yugoslavia. We had two or three days' briefings

Page 8363

1 in Stockholm on the situation in general in the Balkans was presented and

2 discussed. And we also had got some equipment and so on. And we had

3 diplomatic passports. We were unarmed and all dressed in white clothes.

4 And then we went down to the headquarters in Zagreb, Hotel I, where the

5 ECMM headquarters occupied the whole hotel. And during three or four

6 days staying there, we were briefed on rules of operation and how to

7 handle communication equipment and how to drive the cars. And then I was

8 appointed as a monitor to Zenica. And that was first time in my life I

9 heard the word "Zenica." They took us by a very, very rough journey down

10 to Split and stayed with a couple of days with a logistics base for the

11 ECMM in Split. And then we had, I think, five failed attempts to take us

12 into Central Bosnia. It was wintertime and totally blocked roads, either

13 with snow or by military activities.

14 Q. Sir, can you please tell us the approximate date, including the

15 month and year, that you arrived in Zenica.

16 A. I think it was -- it was in -- I left home in the Easter days,

17 1993. And if I remember correct, I arrived in Zagreb 25th, 26th of

18 March. And then I think my first day in Zenica was 31st of May -- or

19 March.

20 Q. And which year was that, sir?

21 A. 1993.

22 Q. And how long did you remain in Zenica? Or perhaps the other way

23 to phrase it is: When did you leave Zenica?

24 A. I left -- I had one week holiday, the first week of June. And

25 then I left definitely the 21st of June.

Page 8364

1 Q. Again, 1993?

2 A. 1993, yes.

3 Q. Other than this one-week holiday in the first week of June 1993,

4 did you remain in Zenica for that entire period?

5 A. Yes. Zenica or in the area.

6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit about your specific

7 duties and responsibilities as an EC monitor in Central Bosnia.

8 A. Yes, I would like to start with my first impressions when we came

9 across the mountains from Split into Central Bosnia and I saw all these

10 damaged houses and empty houses, no sign of life. And I started to think

11 "what has happened to these people?" And thinking of Geneva Conventions

12 and human rights and how to behave in the war and so on. And when I

13 reported for the first time to the head of the -- our CC, the French

14 diplomat, Jean-Pierre Thebault, we had dinner together, sat up talking

15 almost the whole night, the first night I was there and he explained to

16 me what the situation looked like in Central Bosnia. And I, of course,

17 didn't understand immediately that it was a civil war and a lot of

18 warring parties engaged in this war.

19 Quite soon, I think it was the second or the third day of my

20 being there, I was appointed as a member of the Busovaca Joint

21 Commission. The war had started in Busovaca, as I explained. And the

22 ECMM had an intention to reunify the Busovaca Municipality. We have a

23 lot of meetings there. And after some weeks, I was appointed as a

24 chairman of this commission. And then we also established similar

25 commissions in Vitez and in Travnik. I was engaged in that.

Page 8365












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 8366

1 The first intention was to reunify the split municipalities.

2 Q. Sir, if you could tell us, you've mentioned the Busovaca, Vitez,

3 and Travnik commissions. How many commissions in total were operating

4 during the period you were in Central Bosnia?

5 A. It's hard to say because some of them were just intentions. They

6 never started. We also had an ambition to create a joint operational

7 command in Travnik. And that was in the beginning of June 1993 with the

8 HVO and the BiH officers, and a joint command post in the PTT building in

9 Travnik. But that joint command in practice never worked, mostly due to

10 lack of communications.

11 Q. We'll return later to the joint command in Travnik. I'd like to

12 ask you a few questions about the Busovaca commission. I take it from

13 your answer that that is the commission that you were the most familiar

14 with.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall the names of the representatives of the various

17 parties or groups that attended the meetings at the Busovaca commission?

18 A. I don't remember the names of the local persons. There was an

19 HVO battalion commander with a command post in central Busovaca. I don't

20 remember his name. There were different so-called local commanders. I

21 regarded them as some kind of elderly people from the villages around in

22 the municipality. And from the military side, there was -- the HVO

23 representative was Mr. Nakic and from the BiH, it was Mr. Merdan. And

24 these two were, as I understood, second in command in their

25 representative organisations. And they also to and fro had assistance by

Page 8367

1 officers, two, three, four officers that were sometimes present and

2 sometimes absent.

3 Q. Sir, just to clarify. When you say that Mr. Nakic and Mr. Merdan

4 were the second in command in their representative organisations, can you

5 tell us the organisations that they were the second in command of, if you

6 remember?

7 A. Yes. To start with the Croat side, they had an organisation

8 called HVO. The commander of this operational zone, Central Bosnia I

9 think it was called, the commander was Colonel Blaskic. And Mr. Merdan

10 was his second in command.

11 And the BiH commander was Mr. Hadzihasanovic. He had his

12 headquarters in the steel factory in Zenica. And Mr. Merdan was his

13 second in command [sic].

14 Q. Sir, just to clarify, a few moments ago you said that

15 Colonel Blaskic's second in command was Mr. Merdan.

16 A. Yes. No, Nakic.

17 Q. Mr. Nakic. So Blaskic's number 2 was Nakic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Hadzihasanovic's second in command was Merdan?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recall whether other than the representatives, various

22 representatives, of the two parties, what other organisations were

23 represented at the Busovaca Joint Commission?

24 A. It differed from time to time. But we all -- almost always had

25 representatives from the ICRC. Now and then, there were people from the

Page 8368

1 UNHCR. And then now and then, local politicians were present. Sometimes

2 police officers were present. And the meetings mostly took place in the

3 municipality building in Busovaca.

4 Q. And of course, persons such as yourself, EC monitors, were also

5 present.

6 A. Yes, of course. With interpreters and...

7 Q. Were there ever any individuals from other western military

8 organisations present at any of these meetings?

9 A. Yeah. We also had almost all the time liaison officers from the

10 UNPROFOR. And mainly, it was from the British Battalion in Vitez.

11 Q. Sir, other than yourself, who were any other persons from the

12 ECMM who may have occasionally attended the Busovaca Joint Commission

13 meetings?

14 A. When I arrived in Zenica, there was a Danish monitor called

15 Friis-Pedersen, something, who was the chairman of the commission. And

16 after some two, three weeks, I was replacing him as a chairman of the

17 committee. I had a German monitor called Schellschmidt, I think his name

18 was, Dieter Schellschmidt. And I had later on a Dutch monitor, Henk

19 Morsink. A Canadian monitor also took part now and then. Sorry, I don't

20 remember his name.

21 Q. Sir, do you remember some of the topics that were discussed at

22 the Busovaca Joint Commission?

23 A. It was a great variety of issues, but mostly it was problems with

24 telecommunications, complaints about the broken lines. Sometimes it was

25 water-supply problems. Of course, security problems. The Muslim part of

Page 8369

1 the former Busovaca Municipality board, they had left or been forced

2 out - I don't know which - out of Busovaca, and they had some kind of

3 headquarters about 15 kilometres south of Busovaca in a place called

4 Kacuni. And there -- sometimes we met with them, or sometimes we picked

5 them up and took them into Busovaca to a meeting with the Croat part

6 there.

7 Q. Was the Busovaca Joint Commission during the time that you were

8 present involved in any exchange of prisoners?

9 A. Yeah, the commission as such was involved. But exchange or

10 release, the word -- vocabulary changed now and then. But the members of

11 the commission were, of course, involved in these negotiations and also

12 the execution of decisions such as release of detainees or exchange of

13 prisoners.

14 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall the specifics of any of the prisoner

15 exchanges that the commission was involved in, particularly in the first

16 few weeks after you arrived in Central Bosnia?

17 A. My first big business, so to say, was the prison in Kacuni -

18 Kaonik, north of the centre of Busovaca. Kaonik prison was the name.

19 When the -- starting this operation was -- the people from the Red Cross

20 asked us if we knew where prisoner or detainees may be held in this area.

21 And I remember, together with the German monitor Dieter Schellschmidt, we

22 travelled around in Busovaca area and asked people "Do you know something

23 about some prisoner camp" or something like that. And finally, we got

24 information that there was such a camp in Kaonik. So we went there. And

25 the guard denied us to -- he didn't let us in. And we asked who can give

Page 8370

1 us permissions. And he advised us to contact the chief of police in

2 Busovaca. So we went there and got permission to come in.

3 And that was -- I have no idea how many people there was, but it

4 was at least 20, 30, 40 people detained. And when we asked the commander

5 there "Why are these men detained?" "He was a criminal." "Is he accused

6 with something?" "No, not yet." Some of them were detained for murder,

7 a large variety of reasons for persons being held there.

8 And in one cell, we found I think it was seven young persons and

9 I asked "Who are these? What's with these kind of people?" And if I

10 remember correctly, the commanding officer there said they were

11 criminals, and they were foreigners. And then I went into the cell and

12 start talking to the youngsters there. And they explained to me in -- it

13 was very large language problem, but I understood that some of them was

14 from Libya and some from Egypt, some from Saudi Arabia, and some from

15 Afghanistan. And I asked the commander again, "Why are you holding these

16 people?" And then he explained that they had been found, as I

17 understood, connecting to a car accident, and they had a lot of weapons

18 and munitions in the car, and they also had a lot of money.

19 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall approximately how much money you were

20 told that they had in their possession?

21 A. I was told it was 30 million US dollars. And I asked "Where are

22 the suitcases with the money?" "I don't know," was the answer. And I

23 asked him, "Have you seen it?" No, he hadn't seen it. "I heard it from

24 this one who heard it from this one." It was, in my opinion, a kind of

25 rumour.

Page 8371

1 Q. Did you have any discussion about these -- or with these

2 foreigners as to why they were in Bosnia?

3 A. I asked the question: "Why are you here?" "What are you doing?"

4 And they said "We are missionaries".

5 Q. And what did you interpret that to mean when they told you they

6 were missionaries?

7 A. I had my opinion of what a missionary is, a person who is

8 spreading some kind of religious belief.

9 Q. Based on what the person from the prison told you, that they had

10 been arrested with weapons, did you ask them about weapons and why

11 missionaries would need weapons?

12 A. I don't remember if I put that question. But to me it, seemed to

13 be just as I said, much more of rumours than real proof of some criminal

14 activities.

15 Q. Mr. Junhov, was the first time that you had seen any of these

16 foreigners in Central Bosnia?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 Q. Was that the last time you saw any such foreigners in Central

19 Bosnia?

20 A. In that situation, it was the only opportunity to see them. But

21 I think when we saw, for instance, in the streets in Travnik in the

22 beginning of June, I think it was not the Bosnian people there.

23 Q. What makes you believe that these were not Bosnian people that

24 you saw in early June in Travnik?

25 A. You had got some experiences during the months how Bosniak people

Page 8372

1 were dressed and how they behaved. And these people we saw in Travnik,

2 they were -- they didn't look like Bosniaks. Many of them wore a lot of

3 big beards, and often they had green - what do you call it - scarves.

4 And very mixed uniforms and heavy weapons.

5 Q. Other than the time that you saw these people -- let me rephrase.

6 How many times in Travnik did you see such people?

7 A. I can't say a figure, but it was several times.

8 Q. Did you see such people that you might characterise as foreigners

9 on other occasions in Bosnia; and if so, where?

10 A. Of course, it's hard to say because my memory is bad. It's 11

11 years ago. But if I say like this, among the colleagues of monitors, we

12 had a common opinion that there existed such kind of peoples in the area.

13 Q. What did you base or what was this common opinion based on?

14 A. It must be based on -- we saw them. And we heard people talking

15 about them.

16 Q. Do you know what these people were doing in Central Bosnia?

17 A. I have a very personal opinion. And I don't know if the Court is

18 interested in hearing that.

19 Q. If you could please tell us what your opinion is.

20 A. Yes. We had a very hard job to get to reunify the split

21 municipalities. And as soon as we had succeeded in getting an agreement

22 signed for a cease-fire or something like that, or freedom of movement,

23 only the night after or some days after that it happens, things, like

24 burning stable in the middle of the night; some person was killed

25 by - how do you say it - anonymous people who moved around in the area.

Page 8373

1 And in my opinion, it was some kind of people who did not wish to have

2 the problems solved. They were carrying out -- what we heard, the word

3 jihad. Bosnia jihad, the holy war in Bosnia. I don't know what kind of

4 people who did this kind of actions, but it happened.

5 Q. Mr. Junhov, I'd like to take you back now to the persons that you

6 told us were detained in Kaonik, the foreigners in Kaonik prison. Were

7 these individuals ever the subject of discussions at the Busovaca Joint

8 Commission?

9 A. Of course there were questions, perhaps more in general terms, of

10 the detained people and to release the detainees, and also the term

11 "prison of war" was used. And when we talked about prisoners of war,

12 there were very often used the phrase "to exchange." But in the case of

13 detainees, the phrase was used "to release" them. People who are held

14 without legal support.

15 Q. Do you recall any instances at the Busovaca Joint Commission

16 where Mr. Merdan spoke about the need to have such foreign fighters

17 released?

18 A. I don't know -- remember if it was in Busovaca Joint Commission,

19 but at some meetings with the top personalities in Central Bosnia the

20 question was raised. And there was also a proposal that all these Muslim

21 detainees should be gathered in the prison in Zenica that was controlled

22 by the BiH.

23 Q. Do you recall -- when you say "top personalities in Central

24 Bosnia," who are you referring to?

25 A. On the military side, it was Mr. Blaskic and Mr. Hadzihasanovic.

Page 8374

1 And they had political, if you call them, advisors or -- and also, of

2 course, members of their military staffs.

3 Q. Based on your experience with the senior leaders of the 3rd Corps

4 of the ABiH including Mr. Hadzihasanovic and Mr. Merdan, did you gather

5 the impression that they wanted the foreign fighters to be released from

6 HVO control?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you get any idea or have any understanding as to why they

9 wanted these foreign fighters released?

10 A. No so to say written documents about that, but again, my personal

11 opinion is that they were regarded as some kind of resources for the

12 activities in Central Bosnia.

13 Q. What kind of activities, Mr. Junhov?

14 A. There was a civil war going on there.

15 Q. Do you recall on approximately how many occasions you met with

16 Mr. Merdan in the joint commissions or otherwise?

17 A. During my three months, I met him regularly, two, three, four

18 times a week.

19 Q. And in total, approximately how many times?

20 A. Around 50 perhaps.

21 Q. And on how many occasions did you meet with General

22 Hadzihasanovic?

23 A. About a dozen times, 10 to 12. I met him in his office, and we

24 met in our office. And I met him with some social activities. And I met

25 with him on this, so to say, top-level meetings. I remember one such

Page 8375

1 meeting in Kakanj, and one meeting also in -- I don't remember the name,

2 north of Kiseljak. I don't remember the names. But I saw him 10 or 12

3 times during my visit there.

4 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall on any occasion whether General

5 Hadzihasanovic discussed with you the release of the foreign fighters

6 from Kaonik prison?

7 A. No, not he personally. But Mr. Merdan took up this question now

8 and then.

9 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you recall any discussions where General

10 Hadzihasanovic told you or perhaps hinted that efforts would be taken to

11 free those individuals from Kaonik prison?

12 A. I can't say that.

13 Q. Mr. Junhov, were you familiar with a subordinate unit of the

14 3rd Corps called the 7th Muslim Brigade?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you became aware of that unit.

17 A. Yeah. The first time was at an initial briefing in Zenica. We

18 were presented with an organisation sheet of the 3rd Army Corps, BiH Army

19 Corps, and there was in the normal military matter a square,

20 7th Operational Brigade I think it was called. And there was some

21 asterisks and a footnote was "all-Muslim unit." And I recall that I made

22 some reflection, BiH Army. Isn't that -- all of that army Muslim units?

23 But obviously, by some reason this 7th Brigade was earmarked as some

24 special unit.

25 Q. Do you know, sir, who was in that unit or how that unit recruited

Page 8376

1 soldiers?

2 A. I have no proof of it. But the common opinion within ECMM was

3 that it was some kind of, say, French Foreign Legion, people recruited to

4 this unit from abroad.

5 Q. What was the purpose of the 7th Muslim Brigade? What type of

6 role did it fulfil within the 3rd Corps?

7 A. I think it's obvious by the name, operational unit, operational

8 brigade. They operated in the area.

9 Q. Where did they operate?

10 A. In the area of Central Bosnia. Other units, they had very often

11 three-figure names, 309th Brigade. They were local units, more or less

12 like some kind of home guard or home defence forces. But the

13 7th Operational Brigade was operating in the whole area, in my opinion.

14 Q. Mr. Junhov, did there come a time when any of these foreign

15 fighters visited you in your office?

16 A. Yeah. That was -- I can't remember exactly the date of the

17 event, but after some days of negotiations about releasing of detainees,

18 some Croat officers were kidnapped. Some were in the Travnik-Vitez area,

19 four or five officers, major -- captain/major level. And we got report

20 of that. And then one or two days after that there appeared a person in

21 the ECMM office. He was dressed with a turban, and he had a cotton

22 plugged into the mouth so he talked very strange. And he handed over a

23 videotape and explained that it was a message from the captured Croatian

24 officers. So we took this videotape and drove by the car over to Vitez

25 and handed it over to Colonel Blaskic's office.

Page 8377

1 Q. Did you, sir, ever see that videotape?

2 A. I never saw the videotape, but I heard from officers in the Vitez

3 staff that it was a message from these captured officers, and they prayed

4 or -- to assist to release them.

5 Q. Did you ever see the individual who brought you this videotape on

6 any other occasion?

7 A. Yeah. The same individual appeared some days later with a new

8 tape. That was handled in the same way, so to say. We had no equipment

9 in our office to see the tapes. We had no tape recorder or tape

10 equipment. So in the same way, we handed it over to the Croat side.

11 Q. Do you know what if anything was done as a result of these

12 videotapes?

13 A. Yeah, there were new negotiations and discussions what to do with

14 these. And of course, from the Muslim side, there was talk of exchange,

15 to exchange, to release these HVO officers and detained Muslim people.

16 Q. And in fact, did an exchange take place?

17 A. Yes, it did. And again, I don't remember exactly the date. But

18 I was some kind of spider in that net, and I had a command post in what

19 we call the blue factory just out Busovaca. I think it was a factory

20 that made some kind of wood equipment. And then we had spotted where the

21 Muslim detainees were held and also where the Croat officers were held.

22 And then we made a network with the assistance of the BritBat for

23 communication reason and for transportation of the people. And then both

24 sides had representatives on every place where the detainees existed.

25 And in the blue factory in Busovaca, I had what I understood as

Page 8378

1 some kind of commander of this Muslim force. And he got reports from his

2 people out in the area, and finally the Muslim detainees were transported

3 to the blue factory; and from there, they were loaded into BritBat's APCs

4 and transported down to the coast, to Split, I think, for further

5 travelling out of the region.

6 Q. When you say, sir, the Muslim detainees, were those local

7 individuals or were those foreigners?

8 A. They must have been foreigners since they were transported out of

9 the country.

10 Q. Sir, are you aware at any time during the period you were in

11 Central Bosnia of anything that took place in the village of Miletici?

12 A. Miletici. Could you help me to place it on the map, or...

13 Q. Let me draw your attention --

14 MR. MUNDIS: If you could, Mr. President, with the assistance of

15 the usher, I will ask the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 148.

16 Q. First, Mr. Junhov, if you could please look at the second page,

17 the names of the individuals who completed this report.

18 A. Erik Friis-Pedersen was the Danish, and he was my - should I

19 say - predecessor of the Busovaca Joint Commission. And Allan Laustsen

20 was Danish policeman and reserve officer of the Danish army.

21 Q. And sir, does your name appear on this document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I'd like to draw your attention --

24 MR. MUNDIS: And Mr. President, this is available on Sanction if

25 people would like to view it on their screen.

Page 8379

1 Q. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 2 C of this

2 document.

3 A. "The Croat village Miletici. Five inhabitants were murdered by

4 shots and knives yesterday. They were all men, aged between

5 approximately 20 and 60."

6 Q. Sir, having seen this document, does that refresh your memory as

7 to the events in Miletici?

8 A. Yeah. It was, again, some rumours that made Mr. Merdan and

9 Mr. Nakic interested in going to this place. And Friis-Pedersen was

10 together with them, and I think they were transported there by BritBat,

11 or if they drove up there by the ECMM vehicle I don't know. But they

12 found a small village high up in the -- if I remember correctly, high up

13 in the Bila valley where -- this is written by Friis-Pedersen, of course,

14 because he was the monitor who was there. These people were killed, and

15 according to witnesses, as Arab-speaking men dressed in ordinary

16 uniforms.

17 Q. Sir, if I could just interrupt you, because actually what I'd

18 like to talk to you about is that relationship between Mr. Merdan and

19 Mr. Nakic. According to the document you have before you, Prosecution

20 Exhibit 148, Mr. Nakic and Mr. Merdan went with Mr. Friis-Pedersen to the

21 village of Miletici.

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In light of the fact that these two individuals, Mr. Nakic and

Page 8380

1 Mr. Merdan, were from what might be characterised as warring parties --

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. -- can you explain to us a little bit about why the two of them

4 would go together to visit this village?

5 A. I think they were, both of them, driven by some wish to get

6 facts. They were members of the Busovaca Joint Commission, or in this

7 case, joint operational centre in Vitez. And they heard rumours

8 something had happened up there. And they say, "okay, let's go there and

9 find out what has happened."

10 Q. Can you characterise the relationship between these two men based

11 on your attending numerous meetings of the Busovaca Joint Commission with

12 them. How did they get along together? How did they interact? These

13 types of things.

14 A. Let's say it was not a very friendly attitude, but it was some

15 kind of professional, cooperative attitude. They had a wish or a will to

16 find facts and to solve problems. And they realised, of course, that

17 they had to do it together.

18 Q. Are you aware of any other instances where the two of them,

19 perhaps with an ECMM monitor, went to other places where there were

20 rumours or allegations of crimes being committed?

21 A. Yeah. I was together with these two officers in a small village.

22 I think it's called Ostici, south of Busovaca, that had been -- there

23 were no living people left there. And it was a Muslim village. And I

24 noticed in the refugee -- the ICRC camp in Busovaca they had registered

25 people from this village who were refugees. And we went there to

Page 8381

1 investigate what and found out what happened in that village. I think

2 you have a similar report on that occasion.

3 Q. That document, sir, can now be returned. Madam Usher can

4 retrieve that.

5 Let me ask you a few questions about Mr. Merdan. Based on again,

6 the numerous times you met with him, can you tell us a little bit about

7 Mr. Merdan as a military man, as a deputy commander of the ABiH

8 3rd Corps.

9 A. I found him professional, and he was in my opinion quite a

10 balanced person. I never saw him - what do you say - in effect or that

11 he lost his temper. And he always listened carefully what we said. He

12 was a professional officer, in my opinion.

13 Q. Do you know or based on what you observed or saw, did you come to

14 any conclusions about what his specific role was in the 3rd Corps, what

15 he was doing?

16 A. Yeah, I have, of course - again it's a personal opinion; I can't

17 prove it by some written documents - but as he was so often together with

18 us, as Mr. Nakic was out in the area controlled by the other part, of

19 course when he came back to his office, he reported what he had seen and

20 learned. So he was some kind of -- I think in my written statement, I

21 have quoted a "legal spy", I think I used the expression. But of course,

22 his job was to contribute to these local commissions could work, and he

23 was authorised by his commanders, of course, to take part in this job.

24 Q. Mr. Junhov, do you also remember in your written statement

25 indicating that Mr. Merdan was the "eyes and the ears for the commander,

Page 8382

1 General Hadzihasanovic"?

2 A. Yeah, that's why I said he was a legal spy. But don't

3 misinterpret this expression "legal spy." It's quoted in my written. He

4 had -- that was his job, to cooperate with us and with the UNPROFOR and

5 other organisations in the area.

6 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about the type of commander General

7 Hadzihasanovic was, again, based on the 10 to 12 times that you met with

8 him at various places during the time period you were in Central Bosnia.

9 A. It's almost the same impression that I got from Mr. Merdan.

10 Hadzihasanovic was -- in my view, he was a professional officer. He was,

11 could you say, polite or -- I went several times to his staff to complain

12 about observations we had made. And sometimes I met with him personally

13 or sometimes with some of his staff members. And it was no problem to

14 get in contact, and we discussed the problem. I also met him, as I

15 mentioned before, a couple of times in social activities. There was a

16 choir concert when he invited us personally to go there. And we also

17 were invited to some kind of party. And of course, he behaved like a

18 civilised officer. And no problems to discuss whatsoever.

19 Q. Did you get the sense or the impression from your meetings with

20 him that he was fully informed as to the situation on the ground? And

21 did he seem to you to be prepared to discuss issues when you had meetings

22 with him?

23 A. Not always. During the weeks before the Guca Gora, there were

24 fightings going on up in the area. And when I was denied by Muslim

25 people at the checkpoint outside Zenica, I was denied to go into the area

Page 8383

1 to see what's going on, so I went down to the army corps staff and

2 complained about that. And I got an escort from the army corps staff by

3 some military police. And again, when we tried to enter the area, we run

4 into a road blockation with, as I understood - what do you call them -

5 Muslim foreigners or soldiers fired in the air and didn't allow us to go

6 into the area. And then I went back again to the army corps staff and

7 complained about that. And then I got the answer "unit's out of

8 control."

9 Q. Did you on any other occasion discuss with General Hadzihasanovic

10 the foreign fighters that you believed were in the 3rd Corps area of

11 responsibility?

12 A. Not person to person, but in the army corps staff and in the

13 joint commission meetings there were such kind of discussions.

14 Q. What was the response of the 3rd Corps representatives when this

15 subject matter was discussed at these joint commission meetings?

16 A. They never denied the existence of it, but very often declared

17 that there were units operating on their own hands and out of control of

18 the command, commanding organisation.

19 Q. Do you recall which unit or units they were referring to when

20 they indicated that these units were not in their hands or out of

21 control?

22 A. Normally, people understood that when these type of actions were

23 taken, it was understood that it was people belonging to the 7th Brigade.

24 But, of course, I did not have possibilities to identify the individual

25 soldiers or men, the military insignias also. So I have no juridical

Page 8384

1 proof that it was. But every people that we met with and talked to said,

2 "Oh, it's the 7th Brigade."

3 Q. Do you recall what your thoughts about that were at the time,

4 that this 7th Muslim Brigade was not under the command of the 3rd Corps?

5 A. I didn't understand the question.

6 Q. Do you recall thinking about the fact that the 7th Muslim Brigade

7 was not under the 3rd Corps command? What did you think about that when

8 you were told?

9 A. My immediate reflection was "obviously there exists a unit that

10 is operating in the area." That was out of question. "And who is

11 commanding them?" That's the problem. The person who is responsible for

12 the area is the commander of the 3rd Army Corps. And this unit was

13 operating in his area and also, of course, in the area controlled by the

14 Croat side.

15 Q. Do you remember the response that you gave in your written

16 statement to the investigators about the 7th Muslim Brigade and their

17 role within the 3rd Corps?

18 A. Could you read it for me.

19 Q. Let me read you two or three sentences and see if this triggers

20 any recollections in your mind. You say "I was under the impression that

21 the Mujahedin belonged to the 7th Muslim Brigade, but Merdan also stated

22 that the 7th Muslim Brigade was out of control. In my opinion, it is

23 strange to claim that the only mobile unit within the 3rd Corps could be

24 out of control. 7th Muslim Brigade was the elite unit, and obviously the

25 most important unit of the 3rd Corps."

Page 8385

1 Do you remember saying that to the investigators?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Again, can I ask you, other than what you said here, if you have

4 any independent recollections as to what you thought when you were told

5 these kinds of things.

6 A. As I remember it, it was some kind of established opinion that

7 the 7th Muslim Brigade had some kind of special standing in the

8 organisation, or if we say they had -- if we call it more freedom of

9 movement in the area or... They seemed to me to operate more or less on

10 their hand. Or if they had some orders from the army corps I don't know

11 because I never seen it.

12 Q. But you've told us they seemed to move throughout the area of

13 responsibility of the 3rd Corps.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Sir, I have just a few final questions. I would like to ask you

16 about any destruction that you personally witnessed during the time you

17 were in Bosnia.

18 A. If you don't -- if you accept the dating might fail, but the

19 mosque in Ahmici, I think it was the 9th of April or something like that.

20 That was one of these grave events conducted by HVO special forces. And

21 then I saw a number of churches primarily in the Travnik area, Catholic

22 church, an old church in the central Travnik close to the marketplace. I

23 went there because I had heard from someone that they had an interpreter

24 that might be willing to assist us. So I went there to ask for this man,

25 and then a female officer in the parish living close to the church asked

Page 8386

1 me if she could show me inside the church. So, of course, so I joined

2 her and found much of the inventories in the church were destroyed.

3 Sculpture of the saints were decaptured [sic], paintings were cut in

4 pieces, furnitures were broken, windows blown out. To me, total

5 meaningless destruction of holy things, holy...

6 And there was another church, I don't remember the name, just

7 east of Travnik. It seemed to have been some kind of monastery or

8 perhaps a school because a lot of books were thrown out of the windows.

9 The inventory was broken. And this church was also shelled, hit by

10 mortars, grenades.

11 Q. Sir, if I could interrupt you for just a moment. I'd like to

12 return to the church you were telling us about in Travnik with the damage

13 that you described. Do you know which church that was?

14 A. Yeah, it was a Catholic church. I don't know if there were more

15 than one Catholic church in Travnik.

16 Q. You told us -- and I ask you this again because it wasn't

17 reflected in the transcript. The sculptures of the saints, can you tell

18 us what was done to the sculpture of the saints?

19 A. They were broken, heads off.

20 Q. Their heads were cut off.

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Someone cuts the heads off the statues?

23 A. Yeah, by some -- I don't know. Broken, destructed.

24 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the approximate time period in 1993 when

25 you were at the Catholic church in Travnik, day or perhaps month.

Page 8387

1 A. It must have been in the second half of May or first day of June.

2 Q. Did you receive at any point any information as to who had

3 destroyed or damaged the Catholic church in Travnik?

4 A. The person who guided me in the church, it was totally obvious

5 that it was Muslim foreigners or Muslim soldiers.

6 Q. What makes you say that, sir?

7 A. She told me.

8 Q. Did the damage that you observed and witnessed, could you tell

9 what was the cause of that damage?

10 A. What -- no reasonable cause for damage inventory in a church. I

11 can't imagine how people can do such a thing. It's an obvious violation

12 of human rights.

13 Q. Did the destruction appear to you to be intentional or was it

14 somehow related to any type of combat?

15 A. I don't think there had been some combat in that church, at

16 least, because there were no damages from fightings.

17 Q. Sir, let me ask you about any houses or homes that you observed

18 in Travnik. Do you recall anything unusual that you saw with respect to

19 houses in Travnik?

20 A. Yeah. Travnik was in my opinion a very difficult area because

21 Travnik was appointed as a capital of the province number ten in the

22 Vance-Owen Peace Plan, and both sides tried to get majority in this

23 province number ten. And that is probably the reason for the heavy

24 fighting there in the first half of June. And one member of the Croat --

25 Croat member of the municipality board, he had been, as he told me,

Page 8388

1 expelled by Muslim soldiers, and he lived at this time in Bila area, Han

2 Bila, I think it was. And we tried, of course, to reunify Travnik but

3 with no success. And a large part of the Croat people in Travnik

4 disappeared. And I have not got any reasonable explanation why they

5 left. But most reasonable explanation must be that they felt a strong

6 threat from the Muslim side. And on several emptied houses, so to say

7 ex-Croat houses, there were posters or signs put up that said "This

8 property is protected by the Muslim or BiH." I think you have the text

9 of the signs in my testimony.

10 Q. Do you remember discussing this with anyone?

11 A. Of course, we noticed it and discussed within the colleagues,

12 what's the reason for that. They know -- those people who put up these

13 signs, they must have known that the Croats have left. And by some

14 reason, they wanted to keep the houses, perhaps for incoming refugees

15 from other areas or some other reason I don't know.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Junhov.

17 A. Thank you.

18 Mr. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions in direct

19 examination, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think it would be

21 best to have the break now. It's quarter to 5.00, and we will resume at

22 quarter past 5.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 4.45 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.17 p.m.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, you may take the

Page 8389

1 floor for your cross-examination.

2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Bourgon:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Junhov.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. We have had the pleasure and the opportunity to meet a little

7 earlier today. And before I begin, I wish to express my appreciation for

8 you taking the time to meet us. So on behalf of the Defence, thank you

9 very much.

10 I did on this occasion introduce myself but just for the sake of

11 the transcript, let me again introduce myself and the team I am with

12 today. I'm accompanied today by Mrs. Edina Residovic and by Mr. Alexis

13 Demirdjian. And my name is Stephane Bourgon. And together, we represent

14 General Hadzihasanovic.

15 I wish to begin, Mr. Junhov, by simply confirming that you did

16 give a statement to the Office of the Prosecution or to investigators in

17 1997. Is that correct? Which would be one year before you testified.

18 A. But I testified in 1998, if remember.

19 Q. Yes, you testified in 1998. Do you recall testifying in 1998?

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Let's go step by step. Do you recall testifying and you answered

22 this question to the President, in 1998, and that was in the Aleksovski

23 case? Do you remember that?

24 A. Yes, Kaonik prison.

25 Q. And you provided the Office of the Prosecution with a statement.

Page 8390

1 Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is on the occasion where you spent lots of time with the

4 investigator to file the statement.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You gave a further statement in the month of February 2001, which

7 was just a little more than two years ago. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And of course, the events took place more than 11 years ago

10 today, so I fully understand that sometimes it is not possible to

11 remember everything. However, would you confirm for the benefit of the

12 Trial Chamber that even though these events took place more than 11 years

13 ago, today you still have nightmares about the moments and the experience

14 and about everything you saw in Central Bosnia.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that for you, you take no pleasure in being here today and

17 recalling these events.

18 A. On the contrary.

19 Q. Now, as an ECMM, can you confirm that you had no access to the

20 Army of the Republika Srpska or to what we call the VRS?

21 A. Yes. According to our basic documents, we should have unlimited

22 access to all territory. But we were not allowed into the Serb area.

23 Q. And for this reason, can you confirm that you focussed all of

24 your attention to the conflict between the HVO and the Army of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina.

Page 8391

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that for this reason, you do not know exactly what was

3 happening on the front line between the Serb Army and the Army of Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina?

5 A. From inside Central Bosnia so to say, but not from the other

6 side.

7 Q. You knew, however, that the army -- the Serb Army was regularly

8 shelling Central Bosnia and shelling the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. They were shelling the territory. I noticed that several times.

10 For instance, just some hours after we heard on the radio a news

11 broadcast about the Vance-Owen Peace Plan, there were shellings from the

12 Serb side just out the British Battalion in Vitez. One or two hours

13 later, there were shellings there.

14 Q. So you are able to confirm that there was indeed lots of shelling

15 from the Serb down in Central Bosnia.

16 A. Yes, it was.

17 Q. Now, I'd like to move to the issue that you discussed, and that

18 is of the Kaonik prison which you covered in your testimony in 1998. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you confirm that the information which led you to go to

22 Kaonik in the first place was received by the International Committee of

23 the Red Cross?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you also confirm that when you had initially, on the 2nd of

Page 8392

1 April, and that was at the Busovaca Joint Commission, that Mr. Nakic

2 denied having any knowledge of the people detained in Kaonik?

3 A. I don't remember that exactly. But I think you have it in my

4 written paper.

5 Q. If I take your statement that you provided in 2001, and if I just

6 quote to you a short line concerning the role, and it says here "I recall

7 Nakic making a comment that he had no knowledge about those foreigners."

8 Do you recall making this statement?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Now --

11 A. Mr. Nakic was.

12 Q. Mr. Nakic.

13 A. The Croat.

14 Q. Yes. And then you visited Kaonik with a colleague of yours,

15 namely, Mr. Schellschmidt?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And can you also confirm that initially, when you found out about

18 Kaonik -- because you did not know, right, that Kaonik existed?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And when you did find out, you were initially refused access to

21 Kaonik.

22 A. That's on the first attempt.

23 Q. And you had to go to the chief of police in Busovaca in order to

24 get permission to have access to Kaonik.

25 A. Because the guard there said he was not allowed to let anybody

Page 8393

1 in.

2 Q. And then once you did have access, you were dealing with the

3 person you believed to be the commander of Kaonik prison.

4 A. Yeah, he introduced himself as the commander, or the man

5 responsible for the place.

6 Q. Now, on that occasion is when you met the five foreigners. Now,

7 earlier in response to a question from my colleague, you said there might

8 have been seven. But if I read from your statement, and it says five,

9 would that be five? Or do you recall if there was five or seven?

10 A. I have presented photos of these individuals, so -- they are

11 somewhere in the files there.

12 Q. As a matter of fact, I have a picture here which maybe I can show

13 you and you can confirm whether these are the individuals that you did

14 meet.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is the

16 photograph that the Defence was provided with, and it was attached to the

17 witness's statement taken in 2001 by investigators from the OTP. It's a

18 black and white photograph, and we don't have the original.

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's me myself who has made this photo.


21 Q. [In English] You took this picture yourself?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I would ask, Mr. Junhov, that you simply initial this picture and

24 put a date on it. And I will ask that it be -- that it be introduced in

25 evidence to show the five people that you met.

Page 8394

1 A. Yeah. I think on the backside of the photo, there is a note of

2 the date and the place.

3 Q. Maybe on the original, but on this one, there is nothing. So I

4 would simply take this sheet of paper, and get you to put your initials

5 and a date, and we will enter it into evidence.

6 A. Okay.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as far as tendering

8 this photograph into evidence is concerned, this photograph which is a

9 copy of a black-and-white photograph, what is your position? The witness

10 says that he took this photograph himself.

11 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have an exhibit

13 number, Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the exhibit

15 number will be DH189.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. [In English] The five individuals -- sorry.

19 A. Yeah, but I don't remember exactly the date. You have it in my

20 report.

21 Q. Well, I don't think I have a date here. But if you just sign it

22 and put today's date that today you recognise this picture as having been

23 taken by yourself during the time you spent in Bosnia, and that day you

24 said you were accompanied by Mr. Schellschmidt. So simply sign and put

25 today's date, please.

Page 8395

1 A. Okay.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. [In English] Now, earlier on, you answered a question from my

5 colleague that these five foreigners were most likely from Libya, Saudi

6 Arabia and Afghanistan. Now, in your statement here, it says that these

7 people were from Pakistan, Egypt, Tunis, and Algeria.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Are you able to confirm or you just did not know where they were

10 from?

11 A. What is written in my first statement must be most correct.

12 Q. And are these notes -- did you obtain this information on that

13 day from these people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. And can you confirm once again that these people

16 informed you that they were missionaries.

17 A. Yes. On my question, what are you doing here, the answer was "We

18 are missionaries".

19 Q. And can you also confirm that the issue of money and that the

20 issue of weapons, both issues were raised during the

21 examination-in-chief, and in your view both of these issues were rumours.

22 A. Yeah. I couldn't confirm it because there were no evidence of

23 it.

24 Q. Now, when you did ask them why they were arrested, do you recall

25 that they told you that they did not know why they had been arrested, but

Page 8396

1 that they had been arrested immediately upon entry in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina?

3 A. I don't remember exactly the answer. But they were arrested and

4 they had no -- as they explained to me, no reason for -- they hadn't been

5 told any reason for their arresting.

6 Q. Can you say that once again, please.

7 A. I mentioned before there were a language problem because these

8 people didn't speak English, very bad English. Some of them knew some

9 words in German, French. But on my question, I got the impression that

10 they had not been explained by the Croats why they were arrested.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, if I move quickly to your testimony, and that is

12 your testimony that you gave in 1998 concerning the coordination

13 committee meeting. Now, in your testimony, you mention that this meeting

14 took place on the 7th of April. Can you confirm this.

15 A. There were a lot of meetings.

16 Q. But if you said so in your testimony, would that be --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- a proper --

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. Now, on that occasion, you also mentioned in your testimony that

21 at the meeting, there was a request for Kaonik prison to be inspected.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that on this occasion, the committee decided that ICRC, the

24 International Committee of the Red Cross, would do the inspection, and

25 they were actually present during that meeting. Do you recall that?

Page 8397

1 A. If I have written that, it's okay.

2 Q. If I can just refer you to the testimony itself so that I can be

3 sure that this is what you said and you can confirm. I have your

4 testimony here, and I will refer you to the exact area. It says here:

5 "Was there any discussion about the Kaonik prison at this

6 particular meeting?"

7 And your answer was: "Yes. Amongst all other items on the

8 agenda, there was a request or a demand to get this prison examined."

9 The next question is: "Examined by whom?"

10 And your answer is: "Or inspected."

11 And the question then is: "Examined or inspected by whom?"

12 And then your answer is: "According to a decision in the

13 committee, the task was given to the ICRC."

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Thank you. May I just confirm with you, Mr. Junhov, that --

16 A. I'm sorry, what was the question about that?

17 Q. Simply to confirm that the decision to have Kaonik prison

18 inspected, there was someone who put a request forward, and the committee

19 decided to give this task to the ICRC.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Now, my next question is: Do you recall that you mentioned that

22 there was a request for those persons to be transferred to the prison in

23 Zenica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, can you also confirm that, because I've looked at your

Page 8398

1 testimony and both of your statements, and nowhere does it say that there

2 was a request or any indication for these people to be released.

3 A. But there was a general understanding that people who were

4 detained without any juridical reasons, they should be released.

5 Q. So because there was no legal basis, then, it was discussed it

6 should -- if there was no legal basis, they should be released?

7 A. Yes, and that was not only the question in Kaonik; it was other

8 places, too, where people were detained.

9 Q. And of course, these persons, that's probably the reason why they

10 requested them to be transferred to the real prison in Zenica?

11 A. Might have been. I don't know.

12 Q. Let me move on to another area, and that is the 20th of April.

13 Now, I would like to refer you to a document. And before I go on, I will

14 give you a series of documents which we will use during the

15 cross-examination.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a series of

17 eight documents here. These are documents, the ones that will be used by

18 the Judges and the witness, have been indexed. There are tabs, and we

19 have a sufficient number of copies for everyone present in the courtroom.

20 Q. [In English] Mr. Junhov, I would like to refer you to tab number

21 5, which is a special report dated 20 and 21 April. And I would like to

22 refer to the second page in this report where it is indicated that the

23 report was prepared by Mr. Torbjorn --

24 A. That's me.

25 Q. Lars, which would be Mr. Baggesen?

Page 8399

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And Remy, I guess this would be?

3 A. The Canadian monitor.

4 Q. Landry.

5 A. Yes. Remy Landry.

6 Q. I'd like to refer you to paragraph number 2 where it says "Croat

7 communities in Zenica." If you can read where it says: "The following

8 Zenica Croat suburbs were visited to clarify the housing situation..."

9 And where it says that "it was safe to have their inhabitants return."

10 And there's a series of towns which are mentioned. And where it says

11 that "the local commander, local BiH commander, Nuraga was met, and he

12 confirmed us that he had received strict orders regarding all the vacated

13 houses and villages. He had to patrol to assure their security with the

14 military BiH police, including patrol and creation of joint commissions

15 with the local inhabitants. We were told that every HVO soldier that

16 wanted to return to his village could do it if he surrendered by handing

17 back his personal weapon and assuming that he was not part of the

18 shelling on Zenica. In all of the villages visited, the Croats

19 interviewed mentioned that they had received aid and protection from

20 their Muslim neighbours during the fighting. During one of the visits,

21 we witnessed the capture of criminals who were robbing houses by the

22 special military BiH police."

23 Do you recall this visit and the contents of this document?

24 A. I recall the contents of the document, but I wasn't -- I didn't

25 take part in this visit in these villages. That was carried out by

Page 8400

1 Mr. Remi Landry. But we always made these kind of special reports. We

2 picked together from different monitors.

3 Q. All the information, and the information was summed up and

4 indicated into this kind of report.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But you acknowledge that these issues, these events were

7 discussed with you with your colleagues.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd like to move on to the 25th of April.

10 MR. BOURGON: And I would like the usher, please, to bring the

11 Prosecution Exhibit 148, which was referred to earlier on during the

12 examination-in-chief.

13 Q. First, I would like you to confirm, Mr. Junhov, that you yourself

14 never did go to Miletici.

15 A. Yes, I was not present there. As I remember it, it was Erik

16 Friis-Pedersen, together with Mr. Merdan and Mr. Nakic.

17 Q. However, you are able to confirm based on this written document

18 that those people who did the killings in Miletici were the Mujahedin,

19 the Arabic-speaking people.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I would like to refer you to this specific document, but to the

22 paragraph just above -- or sorry, the paragraph just later where it talks

23 about the joint operations centre and where it says that there was -- "a

24 decision was made..." I refer you specifically to paragraph 4.

25 A. In which paper?

Page 8401

1 Q. The second page. This is the one -- the Prosecution exhibit you

2 have in paragraph 4 where it says "tripartite meetings" and where it says

3 that "the commission sat today and discussed the cease-fire violations."

4 Now, I refer you to the end of this paragraph where it says: "In the

5 afternoon, it was decided to send an investigation team of the joint

6 operations centre to Miletici." And then it says: "See above, paragraph

7 2 C."

8 Can you confirm that this paragraph, this decision by the joint

9 operations centre, the decision was to send Mr. Merdan and Mr. Nakic

10 together to go and take a look and confirm rumours they had heard

11 concerning the events in Miletici.

12 A. Yes. Since you have it in the report, it must be true.

13 Q. Now, can you confirm that this was the proper procedure whereby

14 parties would meet at the joint operations centre, they would discuss

15 issues, and if one or the other or both parties wanted to confirm and to

16 investigate, then there would be a decision made for both parties to

17 travel together and confirm whether any rumours were right or wrong.

18 A. That was the normal procedure.

19 Q. And that they would then be accompanied by a member from the

20 ECMM.

21 A. Yes, or from the UNPROFOR or both.

22 Q. And in this case, it's Mr. Friis-Pedersen.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- who accompanied Mr. Nakic and Mr. Merdan.

25 A. Yeah.

Page 8402

1 Q. And together they went to Miletici and they confirmed the

2 information at paragraph 2.

3 A. Yes, it seems so. I don't remember exactly the discussions here,

4 but I take for obvious that the report is reflecting the correct

5 procedures.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Junhov.

7 MR. BOURGON: This document can be taken back from the witness.

8 Q. I would like to move to another issue, and that is on the 26th of

9 April. And I refer to you the series of documents you have before you,

10 and this is the document at tab number 6. Now, if we look at this

11 document, Mr. Junhov, it says that the main task for the team -- would

12 you agree that this would be the team Z1 which was composed of

13 Mr. Baggesen and Mr. Morsink?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that it was to move as much people from Grahovcici back to

16 their homes as soon as possible? And that there was a phase approach --

17 A. The reports says it was to remove as much people from -- as

18 possible, not as soon as possible.

19 Q. Sorry, yes. You're absolutely correct. The first sentence says

20 "as possible," to their homes as possible. So as many people as

21 possible, to move them back to their reports.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you confirm according to this report, the transport was

24 arranged by Father Stipan as long as the head of the civil protection of

25 Zenica. Can you confirm, Mr. Junhov, that the civil protection of Zenica

Page 8403

1 is a civil organisation?

2 A. I didn't take part in this special event. But generally, as you

3 can see here, obviously it has worked this way.

4 Q. Now, just my question to you was can you confirm the existence of

5 the civil protection service of Zenica.

6 A. Yes. There existed some kind of organisation.

7 Q. And this was not a military organisation, but a civilian

8 organisation.

9 A. I don't really know. But in my opinion, they had some kind of --

10 should we call him Lord Mayor of Zenica.

11 Q. Mayor of Zenica. Do you recall the name of the mayor of Zenica?

12 A. No.

13 Q. If I suggest to you Mr. Spahic, does that ring a bell to you?

14 A. I have heard the name.

15 Q. If I suggest to you the name Fazlic as being the chief of police

16 of Zenica, is that something that you recall at all?

17 A. I remember I met with the chief of police a couple of times, but

18 there is no bell ringing of the name.

19 Q. If I show you a picture of the chief of police, would you be able

20 to recall?

21 A. Let us have a try.

22 Q. Can you look at the picture, Mr. Junhov, and tell me if you

23 remember or if you can see who the peoples in this picture are.

24 A. Yes. From the right in my view here, the civilian, his role I'm

25 not fully clear if it was a politician or some kind of civilian officer.

Page 8404

1 And then it's Mr. Merdan and Mr. Hadzihasanovic. Then I think it's some

2 interpreter.

3 Q. Can you say the last name again because I missed the --

4 A. Hadzihasanovic. The commander.

5 Q. Yes. Beside Mr. Hadzihasanovic.

6 A. Mr. Merdan.

7 Q. Sorry, going the other way, the lady.

8 A. The lady, I think she was an interpreter.

9 Q. And then moving down?

10 A. That is the Danish monitor. We had his name on a paper.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Junhov, again, the civilian that you are mentioning --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- do you recognise this gentleman as being Mr. Fazlic?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Chief of police.

16 A. I can't confirm that. I think this photo was taken -- it's me

17 who has taken the photo. And I think it was in a meeting in Kakanj.

18 Q. So I would ask you that we use the same procedure, Mr. Junhov,

19 and that you put your initials on this picture as well as today's date.

20 And I will ask that it be admitted, of course, under the caveat that you

21 could not recognise the man who is dressed in civilian clothes.

22 A. Yeah, I recognise him. I have seen him, of course. But I can't

23 verify the name of him. It might also have been a meeting in BritBat in

24 Vitez. But on the other side of the table, there was the opposite

25 members from the HVO.

Page 8405

1 Q. If I suggest to you that this is the picture that was -- that

2 accompanied your statement and that was, of course, taken by yourself and

3 it is indeed the meeting in Kaonik on the 7th of April. Kakanj, sorry.

4 A. Kakanj, yeah. Okay. Then we agree. Should I sign it?

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I would like these photos to be

6 tendered into evidence.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, may we have a

10 number, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DH190 will be the next number,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. [In English] If I can just refer you to this document that we

16 were looking at tab number 6, and to refer you to later down in the

17 paragraph where it says, and just at paragraph 2, the fifth line -- sorry

18 the fourth line where it begins by "there, we heard that HVO Travnik had

19 ordered to stop all refugees from going back to their houses, and it was

20 said that they were ordered to go to Nova Bila."

21 Do you recall discussing this event with your colleagues Baggesen

22 and Morsink, that the fact that Travnik were basically ordering their

23 people not to return to their villages and instead to go to Nova Bila?

24 A. There was a lot of discussion about the Croats in Travnik. And I

25 can't remember exactly this point here. But there were a lot of

Page 8406

1 discussions how to handle the Croats.

2 Q. And that these people from Travnik that you mention, Mr. Junhov,

3 were the HVO from Travnik ordering their people not to return to their

4 houses.

5 A. It stands so here. And the notes -- the report is written by the

6 two monitors who witnessed this.

7 Q. But do you recall these discussions about the HVO in Travnik

8 telling their people not to return to their houses?

9 A. No, I can't remember because I was -- obviously I was not present

10 at this time.

11 Q. If I bring you down to a little further down, six lines from the

12 bottom, where it says "the local press" -- just below this sentence,

13 where it says, "It appeared that rumours on massacres in and around

14 Zenica were told by the HVO, probably to scare people from going back to

15 their homes, and the team reported on their experiences of phase 1 and

16 was able to calm the situation. And Father Stipan and reps of the

17 refugees used some time to discuss the matter and explain the situation

18 to all refugees. And the refugees told to be forced back from the

19 checkpoint in Novi Selo to Grahovcici by HVO soldiers firing warning

20 shots in the air."

21 Do you recall the use of propaganda and rumours to scare the

22 people from going back to their houses?

23 A. Generally, there was a lot of rumours.

24 Q. And in this case, do you recall your colleagues discussing with

25 you that they actually had taken three buses which were kind of hijacked

Page 8407

1 by the HVO, and the three HVO, the police and the HVO took the buses away

2 from both of your colleagues and Father Stipan? Do you recall this event

3 being discussed at all?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Thank you. Let me move on to another issue, Mr. Junhov. And

6 that is the -- you mentioned that you had seen a church which had been

7 destroyed by - if I recall correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong in your

8 testimony - by a mortar round. Did you say something like that in your

9 examination-in-chief?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I would like to refer you to a document, and this document

12 is at tab number 1 in your report -- in your pile of documents. This is

13 a document which is already in evidence, and I would ask you that you

14 take a look at the document. The first part is a covering letter which

15 is signed by Ambassador Thebault. Now, you know who Ambassador Thebault

16 is. He was the head of the regional centre.

17 A. I know him very well.

18 Q. And he was the one you spent the first night with, discussing the

19 situation.

20 A. And then we worked together for three months.

21 Q. Can you read what Ambassador Thebault was saying on this first

22 page and confirm whether you agree or not with his assessment of the

23 situation. And I refer you specifically to the second paragraph where it

24 says "if the BiH Army attack is clear, it seems also to be now clear that

25 the allegations of atrocities or ethnic cleansing made by the Bosnian

Page 8408

1 Croats are intentionally exaggerated when not completely false." And

2 then where it says a little further down, that: "In fact, the huge

3 population movements reported are more probably the combined product of

4 the long-lasting HVO propaganda on Muslim-alleged atrocities and the

5 result of clear orders given in certain areas to leave the villages when

6 not to join the Serb lines."

7 Do you recall this assessment by Ambassador Thebault?

8 A. I don't remember exactly how the discussion was going on. But at

9 this time, I was head on the coordination centre in Travnik that we

10 established during this period. And of course, I had a lot of

11 discussions with Mr. Thebault about the situation in Travnik. And we

12 were, as I remember, very confused about what happened to all these

13 thousands of Croat people that disappeared from Travnik. And I still

14 have no clear picture of what happened to them.

15 Q. We will come, Mr. Junhov, to the issue of the Travnik. But for

16 now, do you recall that the use of propaganda as described by Ambassador

17 Thebault and the use of orders by the HVO authorities to both scare

18 people and get them to leave their villages?

19 A. What I can confirm generally is that there was a lot of rumours

20 and a lot of attempt to scare the people in some purpose. But I don't

21 remember exactly the discussion that led Mr. Thebault to make this

22 special report.

23 Q. Now, I'd like to refer you, Mr. Junhov, to the next document in

24 your binder, in your list of documents. This is a document dated 19th of

25 June. Now, this, of course, is just before you departed for -- at the

Page 8409

1 end of your tour. Is that correct?

2 A. Yeah, 19th of June.

3 Q. I refer you to the second page of this document where again this

4 is a report that was prepared, the first page, by Jean-Pierre Thebault.

5 And immediately following this report, if you follow me on page 2, is a

6 special report on Travnik dated the 8th of June 1993. Are you with me on

7 the same page?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. I now refer you to the end of this document on page 5 where it

10 says that the document had been prepared by Philip Watkins and yourself.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Do you recall preparing this document?

13 A. Date, 8th of June. Okay. What's the question?

14 Q. Do you recall preparing this document along with Mr. Watkins?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Watkins is the person who came after you as the head of

17 the coordination centre in Travnik. Is that correct?

18 A. Philip Watkins, if I remember it correctly he was to succeed me

19 when I left.

20 Q. If I refer you to in terms of the last -- on page -- sorry, on

21 page 4 at paragraph 8 -- yeah, paragraph 8, and it's the fifth line down

22 where it says "the Dolac church has been hit by a single mortar round,

23 and this is not assessed as a deliberate attack." Is that the church

24 that you saw in Dolac that you reported a little earlier?

25 A. Where it Dolac?

Page 8410

1 Q. The fifth line of paragraph --

2 A. On the map. I have to see a map.

3 Q. I refer you here to your statement, and where in your statement

4 it is mentioned, and that is on page -- to your statement here it, says

5 "Sometimes in late April, I visited Dolac area, which is located

6 northwest of Zenica. I took a photograph of a destroyed Catholic

7 church." And I just want to ask you whether this church in Dolac is the

8 church that is reported here as having been hit by a single mortar round.

9 If you don't remember, it's not -- it is perfectly okay,

10 Mr. Junhov.

11 A. Yeah, but I have to have some kind of support for my memory which

12 church is which. And then I would like to see a map.

13 Q. Unfortunately, I do not have a map with me.

14 A. I have a map in my...

15 Q. If you have a map, maybe you can take it out.

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] With your permission,

17 Mr. President, and of course if the other side agrees.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Mundis, do you have

19 anything against this line of action?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Absolutely not, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So Witness, would you please

22 have a look at your map.

23 THE WITNESS: Let's see, Dolac.


25 Q. It is close to Travnik, northwest of Zenica.

Page 8411

1 A. Is it between Novi Travnik and Travnik?

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, perhaps you could

3 guide the witness. He hasn't got your GPS system.

4 THE WITNESS: Because I can't find the name on the map.

5 Okay.


7 Q. But put the map that you have now in your hands just on the ELMO

8 so that we can all see basically where Dolac is compared to Travnik. Can

9 you use your pencil to point towards Dolac.

10 A. Here's Travnik. And Dolac is here.

11 Q. Is this where you took the picture of a church that was destroyed

12 and that you later reported as having been destroyed by a single

13 mortar-round hit?

14 A. Yeah, but the church had also been visited by people who had

15 abused the church. Or if it was like a monastery or like a religious

16 school or something like that. But the church was hit and the inventory

17 of the church was abused. The library was thrown out of the windows.

18 Q. You referred to earlier on, Mr. Junhov, to a Catholic church in

19 Travnik. Now, this is two different churches. Right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the first one you reported damage inside which you visited

22 with an interpreter?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And this one you report as having been hit by a mortar round?

25 A. Yes, but this church had also been visited by people who

Page 8412

1 destroyed the inventory in the church.

2 Q. We'll move on to another topic, because it's -- this is -- later

3 on, we will talk about the church in Travnik just to ensure that we are

4 -- to know exactly which church we are talking about. Now, the church

5 you visited in Travnik, the one that had the damage inside --

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. -- this church, you were taken there by a lady who told you that

8 the damage inside had been done by the Mujahedin.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, did the lady also tell you that even though the damage had

11 been done by the Mujahedin, a criminal complaint had been filed and an

12 investigation was underway? Did she tell you that?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Let's move on to another issue, and that is the exchange which

15 you referred to in your testimony concerning the foreigners that were

16 detained or at least that were exchanged. My only question I have for

17 you is that of course your information or your knowledge of this exchange

18 is limited to what you saw at the factory; you called it the blue

19 factory.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And on this occasion, you mentioned that there was an individual

22 whom you believed to be a Muslim commander.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in your statement, you actually say that you took a

25 picture --

Page 8413

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- of this gentleman, and I would like to show you this picture.

3 Do you recall who the gentleman in white is who seems to be a bit taller

4 than the others?

5 A. Yeah, I think it's Henk Morsink.

6 Q. Would you agree with me that he is discussing with the member who

7 you believe to be the Muslim commander?

8 A. Yeah, and the man with the back is probably an interpreter.

9 Q. And that is you -- you described him in your statement as being a

10 Mujahedin with the beard, wearing a black beret and an Arafat scarf.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. He was speaking to Mr. Morsink.

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. He was the typical Mujahedin you were referring to. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yeah, in my opinion.

17 Q. Thank you. I would like that you sign this picture, please, and

18 put today's date.

19 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to tender

20 the photograph, too.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, the photograph

22 showing a typical Mujahedin, if I can put it that way. What is your

23 opinion?

24 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Registrar, a

Page 8414

1 number, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DH191 will be that number.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. [In English] Mr. Junhov, can you confirm that concerning this

6 exchange, what you recall is that the foreigners were taking into two

7 Warriors that belonged to BritBat and that they were taken to the coast,

8 somewhere in Split?

9 A. Yes, that's what I heard. I didn't take part in the transport.

10 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to a different issue, and that is the

11 issue that you were appointed the head of the coordination centre in

12 Travnik on 1 June. Is that correct?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. And that is you were just returning from 15 days of rest and

15 recreation, known of course as R and R.

16 A. One week.

17 Q. Sorry, because in your statement it says that you departed on the

18 19th and that you came back on the 1st, which made it 15 days. But I

19 agree. To me, if it's one or two weeks, it says 19 May to 2nd of June.

20 Were those dates -- correspond?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. When you returned, can you confirm with me that the situation you

23 found in Travnik was, to use your own word, chaotic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that during the first week of June, it was a total war in

Page 8415

1 Travnik?

2 A. And the area around Travnik.

3 Q. And that there was also shelling from the Serbian Army?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that there were great problems; there were lack of food, the

6 roads were blocked, and there was no way to get supplies into the town.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also agree that the town was full of refugees, mostly

9 Muslims, but also Croats?

10 A. Yes. And people who came into Travnik from the west, from the

11 Turbe area and beyond that.

12 Q. Now, do you recall that when you arrived being informed that on

13 the 1st of June, the commander of the Operational Group Bosanska Krajina,

14 Mehmet Alagic had been arrested and had been robbed of all of his

15 materiel. Do you recall this event?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you agree with me that this event where the commander of the

18 operational group is arrested is a significant event that can really

19 contribute to raise tensions to the maximum?

20 A. Of course it may contributed to that. But it was one event among

21 a number.

22 Q. Maybe I will make my questions more precise. If you arrest one

23 soldier or if you arrest the commander of the operational group, does

24 that make a difference in terms of the impact on the overall situation?

25 A. Of course it does.

Page 8416

1 Q. Now, are you aware that at the same time, the HVO were preventing

2 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to travel to the front line with the Serbs

3 by establishing some checkpoints? Are you aware of this situation?

4 A. That the Croats -- what's the --

5 Q. That the HVO were setting up checkpoints, and that they actually

6 stopped or prevented buses with soldiers from the Army of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina to travel to the Serb front line. Are you aware of

8 this situation?

9 A. Yeah, I remember the discussions about that. And of course, from

10 the Croat side then the explanation was that they would like to prevent

11 the BiH forces to cooperate with the Serbs.

12 Q. Now, do you also agree, Mr. Junhov, because -- I mean, I take

13 your assessment of the situation. Do you recall that at that time, the

14 HVO, who up until that time in early June had been keeping the line with

15 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were pulling away from the line, and that

16 created big problems for the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 A. I don't understand that question.

18 Q. Let me say that once more. Up until early June --

19 A. Yeah.

20 Q. -- the front line in Central Bosnia facing the Serbs --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- was being held by two armies working together, the HVO on one

23 hand and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Are you aware of that fact?

24 A. Yes, but that was earlier, I think.

25 Q. Yes, earlier, absolutely.

Page 8417

1 A. Okay. Then I agree.

2 Q. Do you agree by that time, the HVO had pulled out from the line,

3 thus increasing the burden on the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. From the Croatian side, they might have got that impression. But

5 I don't --

6 Q. Yourself, as an observer.

7 A. I can't confirm that because we were not allowed to go into the

8 area where the Serb Army could have some kind of impact on us.

9 Q. Now, were you aware at that time, Mr. Junhov, that the HVO was

10 actually leaguing up with the Serbs in terms of teaming up together and

11 fighting the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Were you aware of this?

12 A. [No audible response]

13 Q. Were you aware of the attack conducted by the HVO on the village

14 of Bandol, which is very close to Travnik?

15 A. Is it east of Travnik or... ?

16 Q. This is going from Travnik. If you look up to the monastery at

17 Guca Gora, then you see the village of -- the village of Bandol is in a

18 line, in a straight line between --

19 A. Okay, to the left.

20 Q. -- Travnik and Guca Gora.

21 A. And what was the question there?

22 Q. If you remember there was an attack conducted by the HVO on the

23 village of Bandol.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I just draw to my learned colleague's

Page 8418

1 attention the fact that at line 23 there was no audible response recorded

2 in the transcript.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

4 MR. BOURGON: Thank you.

5 Q. I will say this question once again, Mr. Junhov. But if you

6 don't remember, just say that you don't remember. I was just referring

7 to because you said that there was total war in Travnik and in the

8 surrounding villages, whether you were aware that the HVO had attacked

9 the village of Bandol. And that actually, every single Muslim house in

10 that village was burnt down. Do you recall this event?

11 A. The special village of Bandol, I don't remember that exactly.

12 But you see, this was day after day after day with heavy fighting, and I

13 was just in the middle of it sitting in an awful hotel. And what I could

14 see through the windows from the hotel, of course, it limited me. And

15 the few -- it was very hard to get out in the field.

16 Q. As a matter of fact, maybe you can confirm that on the 4th of

17 June you requested to be evacuated from Travnik and taken back to Zenica.

18 Do you recall this event?

19 A. Yes, in the evening.

20 Q. Because of the fighting.

21 A. Yes, because I had a number of persons with me, and I was

22 responsible for the security for the people. So I called up the BritBat

23 to come in and evacuate us, which they did.

24 Q. Let me move on to a different issue, Mr. Junhov, and that is what

25 you referred to as the joint command post or the joint operations centre

Page 8419

1 which was located in the PTT building. Do you recall this?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You were appointed the senior advisor to this operations centre.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you confirm that this centre never actually worked out?

6 A. Yes, I confirm that.

7 Q. And one of the main reasons amongst others was the lack of

8 communications equipment.

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. And can you also confirm that Mr. Merdan himself, during that

11 period, was difficult to contact because he was no longer being

12 transported by BritBat and that he had no communications equipment of his

13 own?

14 A. I never saw him with any kind of communication equipment.

15 Q. Now, let me move on to a different issue, and that is on the 10th

16 of June, there was a fact-finding mission. And I'd like to refer you to

17 a document in the series of documents that has been given to you, which

18 is at tab 7. And I'd like to refer you to page number 2 where it says

19 that this report has been prepared by yourself and Mr. Watkins.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recognise this report?

22 A. If I would have the time to read it.

23 Q. Take the time to read it, Mr. Junhov, by all means.

24 Do you recognise this report?

25 A. Yeah, I remember it. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Page 8420

1 Q. Do you recognise that in terms of the route -- I refer you to the

2 middle of the paragraph where we talk about Nova Selo. It says,

3 "The route to the village took us through the Croat village of

4 Nova Selo where there was evidence of fighting but no burnt houses," and

5 that en route to Brajkovici, "Two houses were said to have been

6 destroyed, and one fresh grave was observed. But the houses in the

7 village were intact, without any sign of damage."

8 Do you recall these observations made with Mr. Watkins?

9 A. Yeah, yeah.

10 Q. I now refer you to another -- moving on to another topic, and

11 that is the Tuzla convoy. Do you remember this convoy?

12 A. Very well.

13 Q. And do you recall that this convoy was, to use your own words, "a

14 total mess," whereas there was actually a military engagement between the

15 UNPROFOR and the HVO?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. And that drivers were taken out of their vehicles and killed by

18 the HVO?

19 A. If it was HVO units or police forces from Vitez, I don't know.

20 But I have photos from many of the trucks with the contents of the brain

21 in the roof of the lorries. They were shot where they sat in the trucks.

22 Q. And you know that this fighting was done by the HVO or the HVO

23 police?

24 A. Or at least with the knowledge of them.

25 Q. And that even UNPROFOR for the first time killed two persons in

Page 8421

1 self-defence. Do you recall this event?

2 A. Yeah, I recall the shooting. But if it was the first time, I

3 don't know.

4 Q. And that some trucks were actually taken away and stolen all

5 together, and the convoy was badly looted. Do you remember this?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I refer you now to the 14th of June where you actually said

8 something about a house near the centre of Travnik. Now, you said that

9 many houses in Travnik had this sign. I would simply like to confirm

10 that this sign, the reading on this sign, said that "Property under the

11 protection of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina Military Police." Can

12 you confirm that this is what the sign which was on those many houses in

13 Travnik read?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, I'd like to move on to a different issue. And that was

16 basically your assessment of the Vance-Owens plan. This is an issue you

17 touched upon with the investigator whom you met. I'd like to refer you

18 to this end to another document which is in your binder, and that is the

19 document at tab number 8. And I would like you to look at paragraph

20 number 3, where it says:

21 "The international community has deployed an increasingly

22 professional humanitarian effort to keep alive the communities isolated

23 by the conflict over the winter of 1992/1993. But their position is now

24 untenable because of the total intransigence of Bosnian Serbs and the

25 Croats in Herzegovina"; and where it says "The final collapse of the

Page 8422

1 infrastructure of Central Bosnia is imminent. However, as the situation

2 within Bosnia-Herzegovina has deteriorated, so the international effort

3 to resolve the conflict has also become disjointed and the way ahead

4 increasingly unclear."

5 Now, do you recall that this is a document that you gave yourself

6 to the investigators of the Tribunal when you met them in 1997?

7 A. I don't remember that. Who is this -- the author?

8 Q. The author of this document is the --

9 A. Ole Brix-Andersen.

10 Q. He is the deputy head of mission, that is, the ECMM in Zagreb.

11 Now, at the end of your statement in 1997, you gave a series of documents

12 to the investigators. This is one of the documents that is on this list.

13 And your comment is "I am providing the Tribunal with several documents

14 which I authenticate. They are true to the best, and I want to attach

15 them to this statement, and I'd like you to consider them to be part of

16 my statement." Do you recall saying this to the investigators of the

17 Tribunal?

18 A. I can't remember exactly that, but...

19 Q. And this document was in the list, and this is a document dated

20 16th of June.

21 A. Which year? 1993, okay. So what's the point?

22 Q. I simply say whether you recognise this as being one of the

23 documents which you gave to the investigators of the Tribunal.

24 A. Yeah, I can't deny that.

25 Q. Now, if I go with you to the second page of this document, where

Page 8423

1 it says, talking about the Serbs, that -- at paragraph 6: "The Serbs are

2 contemptuous of the Security Council resolutions and declarations on safe

3 areas and continue to pursue their policy of reducing and removing the

4 Muslim presence in the area as fast as possible."

5 Do you remember reading this document and discussing this

6 document at any point during your stay in Bosnia?

7 A. This is dated the 16th of June. That is the same week that I

8 left.

9 Q. Now, you obtained this document while you were in Bosnia. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. I refer you to this number 10, paragraph number 10 on this page,

13 where it says "the eruption of interethnic violence between Croats and

14 Muslims in Central Bosnia on 16th of April, capped by the atrocity

15 committed in Ahmici, was staged by the Bosnian Croats. They want to

16 start by establishing a secure border between Croat provinces 8 and 10,

17 and the Muslim province number 9."

18 If we go to the next page, "At the same time, they will eliminate

19 all Muslim resistance to their plans within provinces 8 and 10. Once

20 this is achieved, one can expect ethnic cleansing within Croat-controlled

21 areas will be pursued on a far larger scale than is currently possible.

22 This process will probably lead to the securing of independence for the

23 Croatian community within Bosnia and Herzegovina and eventually some sort

24 of formalised relationship with Croatia."

25 And I'd like to refer you just to paragraph 14, because this is

Page 8424

1 where you were in terms of the head of the coordination centre. Are you

2 with me at paragraph 14, sir?

3 A. Yeah.

4 Q. Where it says: "Travnik was the only area where the Croat and

5 Muslims appeared to be working well together, despite a number of fights.

6 But on the 4th of June, the Croats evacuated Travnik to Novi Travnik,

7 Vitez, and Turbe held by the Serbs amid allegations of Muslim atrocities.

8 And then it says the Muslims took control first of Travnik and then of

9 the mountain route from Travnik to Zenica."

10 And where it says that "There is evidence that the HVO

11 deliberately withdrew the civilian Croat population from the Travnik area

12 in an attempt to balance their eviction against events in Mostar."

13 Would that be consistent with what you saw as the head of the

14 coordination centre in Travnik?

15 A. Yeah, as I mentioned before, we had a lot of discussions about

16 what happens to the Croats in Travnik and who made what. And as I also

17 mentioned before, I didn't get a clear picture of that when I was there.

18 Q. Let me move on to a different issue, which is my last issue I

19 would like to cover with you. And that is basically: You mentioned that

20 you met with General Hadzihasanovic. And can you confirm that your

21 assessment of General Hadzihasanovic was that he was professional,

22 educated; that he never raised his voice, that he was polite, and that he

23 behaved correctly at all times?

24 A. Yeah, I never saw any other behaviour.

25 Q. Now, if I tell you information which you might not be aware of,

Page 8425

1 that actually General Hadzihasanovic during his time as commander of the

2 3rd Corps in Central Bosnia issued a number of directives and orders to

3 his subordinate commanders, to both respect the law, investigate

4 violations, and actually ensure that violations are followed up with

5 disciplinary punishment or even criminal actions, would that be

6 consistent with what you saw of the man in Bosnia in 1993?

7 A. Yeah, but I am a very realistic person. I see to the result, and

8 not to the speeches and so on. And in my opinion, I think that the

9 commander of Central Bosnia, he was responsible for the area and for what

10 happens there.

11 Q. So the commander of the Central Bosnia operative zone, the HVO

12 commander, is responsible for everyone that happened in Central Bosnia.

13 A. In the area that he controls.

14 Q. They control the same area. So who's responsible?

15 A. They don't.

16 Q. They're both responsible for the same area. Central Bosnia

17 operative zone and Central Bosnia; do you agree that this is the same

18 area?

19 A. Of course, Central Bosnia as a geographic object is the same.

20 But the military control was not overlapping.

21 Q. Now, we agree -- you are a former military officer, and we agree,

22 of course, that in military speaking, we always say that a commander is

23 responsible for everything. Do you agree with that?

24 A. Yeah, that's basic.

25 Q. My question to you is: If the commander that you met in 1993

Page 8426

1 issued a number of orders and that these orders led to prosecutions and

2 to a number of people being investigated, being prosecuted, being found

3 guilty, and being sentenced and being put in jail -- now you don't know

4 this information, but if this information was true, I'm just asking you

5 whether this fits in the character of the man that you met called

6 General Hadzihasanovic?

7 A. I think it's a strange question.

8 Q. If you can't answer, it's perfectly fine with me. I'm just

9 asking because you met him on a number of occasions.

10 A. Yes, but I never saw such an order as you mentioned. I never saw

11 any actions of courts or sentences and penalties.

12 Q. But would you agree with me that you never saw any orders from

13 the 3rd Corps, whether it was to lead an attack, to prepare an attack, --

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. -- to prepare troops, to do any movements. You saw no orders

16 whatsoever.

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. So then it is normal that you did not see orders for discipline.

19 Would you agree?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I'm just telling you, if it took place, is that consistent with

22 the character of the man that you saw in 1993? And if you cannot answer,

23 it's perfectly fine.

24 A. It's a hypothetical question.

25 Q. Let me simply move on to the fact that General Hadzihasanovic did

Page 8427

1 mention to you or complain to you that he had no communication

2 equipment --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, how much time do

4 you need?

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] I have no another two questions,

6 Mr. President. I'm almost finished.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And how much time

8 will Mr. Kubura's Defence require?

9 MR. DIXON: We will need 10 minutes to ask a few questions.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Well, we will try

12 to conclude.


14 Q. Mr. Junhov, can you confirm that General Hadzihasanovic did

15 complain to you that he had problems in communication and that he did not

16 have sufficient equipment and that he did not have any satellite phones?

17 Do you recall this conversation with General Hadzihasanovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Junhov. I have no further questions.

20 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would only like to

21 tender some documents from the bundle into evidence. Perhaps we could do

22 that after my colleague asks his questions. Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Dixon:

25 Q. I wanted to return to the topic of damage and destruction. You

Page 8428

1 were shown a report that was prepared by yourself and Mr. Watkins dated

2 10 June 1993. There's no need to look at it again. Simply, if you could

3 confirm that in that report, following the fact-finding mission, it was

4 found that there was no damage to the village of Brajkovici. Is that

5 right?

6 A. I don't remember it. But if it's in the report, it's -- of

7 course it's correct.

8 Q. In the report - and you can refer to it if you need to - but it's

9 also stated there that there was no damage to the church in Brajkovici,

10 that it was visited and it was completely intact with candles, pictures,

11 et cetera, remaining. Is that something you recall being in the report?

12 A. No, I can't remember it. But you have the report.

13 Q. Yes, it's at tab number 7 of my learned friend's record, if you

14 do wish to refer to it.

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. It's on the first page of that report.

17 A. And what was the question?

18 Q. That the church was visited in Brajkovici and there was no damage

19 to the church.

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. And also, that it says in the report - that's near the bottom of

22 the first page - that the damage to Brajkovici was very limited. Do you

23 agree with me on that point?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In addition in the report, although Grahovcici was not visited

Page 8429

1 itself, would you confirm that the report notes that this village

2 [Realtime transcript read in error: "church"] was closely observed and

3 also appeared completely intact?

4 A. Of course. What is written in the report is what we saw.

5 Q. Yes, thank you.

6 There was also a TV crew with you on this visit. Do you remember

7 that? A video was made of your mission and what was seen. Do you

8 remember that?

9 A. On this special --

10 Q. That there was a video of your trip and what was observed in

11 Brajkovici and Grahovcici?

12 A. I don't remember that on this special day that there was a

13 television team with us. But we had now and then television teams and

14 also writing journalists.

15 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, if I could correct one matter for the

16 record. At 88.4, it says here "the church was closely observed." But

17 what I in fact said in my question was that the village of Grahovcici was

18 observed and the church was intact. The witness has confirmed that in

19 the report. Thank you.

20 Q. I'm not going to refer any longer to the report. I'm moving on

21 now to when you first arrived in April 1993. You mentioned that you were

22 shown an organisational chart of the 3rd Corps in which the 7th Brigade

23 was listed. Would you agree with me that that chart was one prepared by

24 the United Nations based on the information that they knew at the time?

25 It wasn't a chart of the Bosnian Army or any of the other warring armies.

Page 8430

1 A. No, it was provided by the UNPROFOR.

2 Q. Yes. You did not have a chart, did you, Mr. Junhov, that was

3 provided by the Army of Bosnia itself setting out which were the units

4 and what the composition of those units were?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you know -- even though you didn't have such a chart, did you

7 know at the time that besides the 7th Brigade, there were other manoeuvre

8 units within the 3rd Corps area of responsibility?

9 A. Muslim units or?

10 Q. Units belonging to the 3rd Corps of the Bosnian Army. Did you

11 know besides the 7th Brigade, that there were other manoeuvre units not

12 attached to a particular territory or area, but moving within the area of

13 Central Bosnia?

14 A. That is hard to say. Which unit people belonged to.

15 Q. Perhaps if I mention a few brigades, it might ring a bell. Did

16 you know that the 301 Brigade or 303 Brigade or 314 Brigade or the

17 17th Krajina Brigade, they were all manoeuvre units able to move with a

18 degree of freedom within the area of 3rd Corps?

19 A. It's very hard to identify units. But I have a general

20 impression that they had a constant lack of means and transportation.

21 Q. Which units had a constant lack of meanings of transportation?

22 A. All units in...

23 Q. It wouldn't surprise you that there were a number of manoeuvre

24 units operating within the area of the 3rd Corps, would it?

25 A. It's possible.

Page 8431

1 Q. Yes.

2 In your testimony in chief, you mentioned that there were certain

3 opinions about which you had no proof. If I could refer to one in

4 particular and ask you whether it is correct that you, in fact, had no

5 juridical proof [Realtime transcript read in error: "group"] that there

6 were groups, as you put it, of foreign fighters which may or may not have

7 been with the 7th Brigade?

8 A. Yes, the answer is I had no juridical proof of it.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. But the opinion among the monitors, among the UN personnel,

11 was -- that was this opinion.

12 Q. But as you said in your examination-in-chief, you simply did not

13 have information, did you, about particular individual soldiers and

14 foreigners and which units they may have been with, if within a unit at

15 all?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, before we move on, I have been alerted

20 to the fact that there's another error on the transcript, and that's at

21 90, line 8. It's in fact you had no juridical proof, not group. So

22 there was no proof that there were groups in the 7th Brigade. And the

23 answer to that was yes, I had no juridical proof of it. Thank you.

24 Q. One final question, Mr. Junhov: You never met Mr. Amir Kubura,

25 did you?

Page 8432

1 A. No.

2 MR. DIXON: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, is

4 there any re-examination?

5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no questions for re-examination

6 for the witness. Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, as far as your

8 request to tender documents is concerned.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm referring to a

10 series of documents that were shown to the witness. Could documents, 3,

11 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 be tendered into evidence on an individual basis.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as far as these

13 documents are concerned, they all appear to be official. What would your

14 position be?

15 MR. MUNDIS: No objection.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, we have a number

17 of documents referred to in the list. We have one dated the 15th of

18 April, number 3; the 19th of April, number 4; 21st of April, number 5;

19 the 26th of April, number 6; the 8th of June, number 7; and the 16th of

20 June, that is number 8. Could we have an exhibit number for each of

21 these documents.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the document will

23 be 192. The document RC Zenica will be 193. The document referred to as

24 "the Special Report on Croats in Zenica" will have the number DH198 [as

25 interpreted]. The daily report team document will have the number 195.

Page 8433

1 The daily summary in Travnik will have the number 196. Document Number

2 8 -- we have a B/C/S version -- a version English, will have the number

3 DH197; and the B/C/S version will have the number 197/B/C/S.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As the Judges have

5 no questions, Witness, you have answered the questions put to you by the

6 Prosecution and by the Defence. The Trial Chamber would like to thank

7 you for having come to testify in The Hague. We wish you all the best.

8 As you are now retired, we wish you all the best in your retirement. We

9 wish you a good trip home. And I will now ask the usher to escort you

10 out of the courtroom, and you shouldn't forget to take the bag containing

11 your documents with you. You were very kind and provided these documents

12 to the Defence. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll give

16 Mr. Bourgon the floor now who has presented us with four documents. You

17 may proceed.

18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. These

19 are the four documents that were used with the witness Sir Martin Garrod

20 last Friday. In the list of the documents provided, we first of all have

21 a document. It's a chart prepared by the Defence. There is no date.

22 The second document is a report dated the 2nd of June 1993. Its

23 title is "Special Report, BSA Offensive Action in Central Bosnia."

24 And the third document is dated the 7th of October, and its title

25 is "RC Zenica, Subject: Meeting between DHOM Ops and Mr. Enver

Page 8434

1 Hadzihasanovic, Commander of 3 BiH Corps, on 4 October 1993."

2 The fourth document, Mr. President, is the first one I used. It

3 has been highlighted -- parts have been highlighted, and I now have a

4 clean copy which I can tender into evidence. And this can replace the

5 one that the Registrar has kept. The date is the 4th of August 1993 and

6 the title is "Human Rights Situation in BiH and Emergency Situation."

7 Could we have four different numbers for these documents, please,

8 Mr. Registrar.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Mundis, as far

10 as these documents are concerned, the ones that were presented at the

11 hearing on Friday and that the Defence couldn't provide in totality, it

12 was necessary to replace one that was highlighted in yellow, that

13 document was dated the 4th of August 1993, and that was the document that

14 had to be replaced, does the Prosecution have any objections to raise to

15 these documents that have been identified and recognised by the witness?

16 Perhaps there's a bundle of documents that the Prosecution could be

17 presented with.

18 Madam Usher, could you please collect the documents in order to

19 refresh the Prosecution's memory.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I have the first three

21 documents. It's the fourth one that I'm a bit -- if I could just be

22 shown the fourth document.

23 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] The fourth document is the one that

24 was placed on the ELMO and parts of it had been highlighted. It was the

25 first document used in the course of the cross-examination. Thank you.

Page 8435

1 MR. MUNDIS: Prosecution has no objection to these four documents

2 being admitted into evidence.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, we

4 need another four numbers now.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the first

6 document, "ECM chart as prepared by Defence team" is DH198.

7 The second one called "special report" will have the number 199,

8 DH199.

9 The other one, the meeting between HOM, will have the number

10 DH200.

11 As far as the last document is concerned, the exhibit will be

12 DH201.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 It's almost time to adjourn. As I said at the beginning of the

15 afternoon, tomorrow we will broadcast the videotapes, the ones referred

16 to in the document provided to the Judges and the Defence. The

17 Prosecution will state its position before the first video is shown and

18 will respond to the points raised by the Defence, namely the issue of who

19 made the document, when, when it was provided to the Prosecution,

20 et cetera. If the Prosecution isn't in a position to respond to the

21 questions raised, they will inform us of the fact. We need as much

22 information as possible in order to evaluate the reliability of the

23 document. I said the reliability, not it's probative value. So that's

24 how we will proceed.

25 Thank you. And I will see everyone at the hearing tomorrow at

Page 8436

1 9.00, unless there is something that Mr. Dixon would like to add.

2 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, just one additional report, and that is

3 to confirm that the Defence did today file the application with the

4 Blaskic Appeals Chamber in respect of the witness that we discussed at

5 the end of last week. I won't, of course, mention his name. But as we

6 said we would do, that application was filed today, and we will now wait

7 for the ruling from the Appeals Chamber. Thank you, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that information,

9 which is useful. As I said, I will see you tomorrow at 9.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of June,

12 2004, at 9.00 a.m.