Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10333

1 Wednesday, 20 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

10 for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

12 Honours, Counsel, and to everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Mathias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and our

14 case manager, Mr. Andres Vatter.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

16 Could we have the appearances for the Defence.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President, good

18 day, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina

19 Residovic, Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Mirna Milanovic, our legal

20 assistant. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the

22 appearances for the other Defence team.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

25 Mulalic, our legal assistant.

Page 10334

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

2 would like to greet everyone present in the courtroom, members of the

3 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else present in

4 the courtroom. The Trial Chamber is very happy to see the model that

5 disappeared for a few weeks. We have it before us again now. And this

6 should facilitate the task of following the witnesses when it's necessary

7 to find the locations of routes, villages, or other sites.

8 We'll now continue with -- we'll now commence with the

9 cross-examination of the witness, unless Defence counsel has anything to

10 say. Yes, you may take the floor.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into

12 private session, please.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

14 [Private session]

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 10335












12 Pages 10335 to 10345 redacted private session.














Page 10346

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we're in open session,

8 I'll address the issue of tendering the documents contained in the binder

9 after the witness has been heard. You have numbered them. The first one

10 is 511, the second one 603 and so on. For reasons that have to do with

11 copying documents, the Registrar would like to all the numbers of the

12 original - 511, 603, et cetera - all these numbers marked for

13 identification. On the first list we would have a number for the

14 document marked for identification. And after the witness has been

15 heard, you can -- after the witness has identified the documents, we

16 could then give these exhibits definitive numbers. They would no longer

17 be marked for identification. Is this in any way problematic for you?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That would make

19 matters easier for the Defence counsel. The entire list that we provided

20 -- the entire list of documents could be marked for identification, and

21 once some of the exhibits we showed to the witness admitted into evidence

22 by the Trial Chamber, at that stage we could delete the number used for

23 identification and use the same number that was previously indicated on

24 the document.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as far as this

Page 10347

1 issue is concerned, we will have a number for the document which will be

2 marked for identification. We will then delete this number used for

3 identification once the witness has identified the relevant document.

4 No comments, no observations.


6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Registrar has told me that

7 Defence counsel should also provide an official list of the documents

8 with relevant numbers, and then you will ask us, after the witness's

9 examination, for us to delete the numbers used for identification and for

10 the exhibits to be given definitive numbers. This will be done provided

11 that the documents have been identified and haven't been contested.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would like to

14 make sure that you are receiving interpretation. If so, please say so.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am receiving interpretation.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may proceed

17 with the cross-examination.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

21 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Daryl Mundis. I'm one of

23 the Prosecutors in this case. I'm going to be asking you some questions

24 this afternoon, sir. And it's certainly not my intention in any way to

25 confuse you, so if any of my questions are not clear, I would simply ask

Page 10348

1 you to say so, or if you don't understand a question, to say so and I

2 will either repeat or rephrase the question. Do you understand that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Sir, can you tell us, please, the precise dates that you were the

5 commanding officer of the 312th.

6 A. As for the 312th Motorised Brigade, I acted as commander from

7 mid-November. Now, why am I not stating the exact date? It is because

8 of the fact that the period during which the brigade was established was

9 largely spent on various issues involving the establishment of the staff.

10 They worked together with the Territorial Defence. So that the official

11 date of the establishment of the 312th Motorised Brigade and my first

12 report in my capacity of brigade commander goes back to the 25th November

13 1992.

14 Q. And for how long did you remain in that position as commander of

15 the 312th Motorised Brigade?

16 A. I remained in that position until the 26th of April 1995.

17 Q. Sir, during the period from the 25th of November 1992 until the

18 end of 1993, where were the headquarters of the 312th Motorised Brigade?

19 A. The headquarters of the 312th Motorised Brigade at the very

20 beginning was located in Travnik, more specifically in the facilities

21 that had been requisitioned from the former company which was called

22 either Sebisic or something to that effect. But I know that it was a

23 former construction company, whose premises were in Travnik.

24 Q. And sir, you said from -- or at the very beginning, it was

25 located there. Did your headquarters remain in that building throughout

Page 10349

1 1993?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Can you --

4 A. But let me just tell you that after the units had been

5 established, and after the initial period of the work of the brigade

6 staff passed, the headquarters of the brigade also worked from a forward

7 command post which was located in the vicinity of the front line of the

8 Serb forces in the village of Turici which is located to the west of

9 Travnik, some 6 kilometres away from the town. The village of Turici is

10 a Muslim village, and that is where the forward command post was located.

11 However, the main command post, the headquarters was still in Travnik

12 town. And the next thing that might be of interest to you is the fact

13 that the brigade command, after the fighting began and when the Croat

14 population from the villages located to the left of the road - rather, to

15 the south of the main road, that is, Travnik-Jajce main road, when we

16 took possession of all of those abandoned Croat villages in order to

17 provide security and prevent plunder, so it was with that objective in

18 mind that the command in Travnik, the oldest operations group, it was

19 ordered that parts of the brigade be located or transferred to the

20 village of Kraljevica. This was one of the villages that had been

21 abandoned by their Croat population with the exception of just a few

22 families that remained in that village.

23 That date must have been sometime around the 15th of June 1993.

24 As of that date, the command had its seat, its headquarters in the

25 village of Kraljevica. I don't know whether this is enough in terms of

Page 10350

1 information.

2 Q. That's fine, sir, thank you.

3 Now, from the period of the -- from the mid-November 1992 through

4 the end of 1993, can you tell us, chronologically, from the beginning of

5 when you assumed command to the end of 1993, to whom you reported

6 directly. Who was your immediate supervisor? And if that changed

7 throughout that period, if you could indicate that, that would be

8 helpful.

9 A. At the beginning when the 312th Motorised Brigade was

10 established, in light of the command and control system of our superior

11 command, the command of the 3rd Corps, we received tasks -- or rather, we

12 were tasked with the duty to report to the -- to that command about all

13 measures and all assignments that we had and about which we had to inform

14 our superior command. That activity was carried out in a similar manner

15 as it is normally done in every other modern army. We had weekly reports

16 and monthly reports. Later, because of a large number of units and the

17 very complicated communication lines that the headquarters had with their

18 front lines, and also because of the fact that there were several brigade

19 commands, operations units were established in order to unite in a given

20 area several brigades.

21 In Bugojno, for instance, the Operations Group West was

22 established, and the 312th Motorised Brigade became part of that

23 operations group. It was sometime in either March or April that I

24 received a task -- or rather, I was ordered to send my reports to the

25 West Operations Group.

Page 10351

1 There's another thing that might be of interest to you: At the

2 same time, in the same month when the West Operations Group was

3 established, the operations group called Bosanska Krajina was established

4 in Travnik. Our brigades, the Travnik brigades, the 312th and 306th

5 brigades were not part of that operations group because we were under the

6 West Operations Group. But I know, for instance, that the 17th Brigade

7 came under this Bosanska Krajina Operations Group. So the reporting

8 system was quite difficult, and it is very complicated to get in touch

9 with Operations Group West, and that is why we sent our reports to both

10 of these operations group, both to the West Operations Group and the

11 Bosanska Krajina operations Group during the period of time you

12 mentioned.

13 Q. Sir, if I understand you correctly, at the beginning, you

14 reported directly to the 3rd Corps commander. Is that right?

15 A. Yes, at the very beginning.

16 Q. And then sometime in the spring of 1993 when the Operation Group

17 West was formed, you reported to the commander of that operational group?

18 A. That is correct, sir.

19 Q. At the time the Operation Group West was formed, can you tell us

20 who was the commander of that operational group.

21 A. The commander of the Operation Group West from the day it was

22 established until the end was Brigadier Selmo Cikotic.

23 Q. If I understood you correctly, sir, at no point in time was the

24 312th Motorised Brigade part of Operation Group Bosanska Krajina. Did I

25 understand you correctly?

Page 10352

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Now, sir, for the record, because we have a number of documents

3 as well, can you please spell for the Trial Chamber the Bosnian word for

4 "west."

5 A. Z-a-p-a-d.

6 Q. So if we have documents that refer to Operational Group Zapad,

7 that would be Operational Group West?

8 A. That is correct, sir.

9 Q. Can you tell us, sir, at the time OG Zapad was formed, what other

10 brigades were part of that operational group?

11 A. If I'm not precise enough, I apologise for the Chamber in

12 advance. I was not duty-bound to know exactly which brigades, but I know

13 that the following came under that group: 306th, 312th, 317th, 307th. I

14 don't know whether I mentioned 308th Brigade. Those were the units which

15 were part of OG West.

16 Q. Now, sir, during the period 1993, did the 312th Motorised Brigade

17 have a specific area of responsibility, a geographic area of

18 responsibility?

19 A. In 1993, the 312th Motorised Brigade took over the fighting area

20 that they inherited from the territorial staff. I showed this yesterday.

21 It was west of Travnik in the area of Turbe battleground. And also to

22 the left and the south of Turbe, a number of villages there, and also an

23 area which extended to the north of Turbe.

24 It was a classical military front line. This was -- this had

25 been the area of responsibility of the Territorial Defence. But this

Page 10353

1 area became area of responsibility of the 312th Motorised Brigade, and

2 all elements which are part of the brigade, including logistics and

3 elements of the logistics as well.

4 Q. Now, sir, I know you made a number of indications yesterday on a

5 large colour map that was here in the courtroom. I would ask you if you

6 could, please, to perhaps with the assistance of the usher, if you could

7 take one of the markers, and on the map behind you make a few markings

8 for me as I ask you to do so.

9 You told us yesterday about front lines between the 312th and the

10 Bosnian Serb forces or the VRS or what later became known as the VRS.

11 Can you please mark the front -- let me ask you this first: The front

12 line in that area, did it move a lot during 1993, the front line between

13 your forces and the VRS?

14 A. Just a moment, please. Let me see if I got this right, whether

15 the front line between us and VRS moved in 1993. Let me think: In 1993,

16 no. Sorry, I was confused a bit because I was thinking of 1992 when the

17 situation was much more favourable to the then TO staff. I can give you

18 more information on that if you want.

19 As for 1993, that was your question: The area was the same as I

20 described it yesterday. I can maybe indicate a number of facilities, or

21 rather villages which were part of this area to make things clearer.

22 Q. Let me just ask you so that we don't end up with a map with too

23 much information on it, if you could just draw the front line between the

24 312th and the VRS during 1993. If you could mark that on the map for me,

25 if you see it on the map, the area.

Page 10354

1 A. Turbe is here. I'm going to indicate the locations with respect

2 to areas. Secevo, the village of Secevo, for instance. Shall I make a

3 circle or underline it?

4 Q. If you could visually mark where the line went, as one might see

5 on an operational map in a military room.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Can we please make sure the witness's mic is

7 on. We can hardly hear him.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this would roughly be the line

9 in question.


11 Q. Sir, if you could then, to the northwest of that line, if you

12 could write the initials "VRS" for where the Serb forces were.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. And then perhaps to the southeast or to the south or to the

15 right-hand side of that line indicate where the 312th was, perhaps by

16 just writing the numbers "312."

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. I have a few more questions about the map. Maybe

19 we'll just deal with them all now. At some point in 1993, was the 312th

20 Brigade also maintaining a front line against the Croat or HVO forces?

21 A. In 1993? You mean -- you don't have any specific period in mind,

22 just in 1993?

23 Q. During 1993. Did the 312th Motorised Brigade undergo any kind of

24 combat or have a front line that they were opposed to the Bosnian Croat

25 or HVO forces?

Page 10355












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 10356

1 A. I see now. There was some activity in the latter half of June

2 and later in the second half of that year. Those events caused the 312th

3 Brigade, in addition to a number of troops that secured that area against

4 incursions of the VRS, caused the brigade to undergo a number of clashes

5 with HVO at the time. I had a number of troops on leave for a while, and

6 they entered, those forces entered -- if you understand me correctly, the

7 Territorial Defence staff at that time had their geographically deployed

8 units, the units that were connected to particular facilities, particular

9 streets or neighbourhoods in that area. And that is how this

10 geographical area unit was located, specifically in the territory of the

11 Slimene local commune. Because this is where those incidents started,

12 the incidents which then developed into a conflict with HVO.

13 My troops were on leave at the time, and they came under the

14 command of those area units, and they made themselves available for the

15 Defence against HVO units. And that is how as early as 1993 we had a

16 front line against HVO in the area of Slimene. I am referring mainly to

17 the regional road between Travnik and Novi Travnik, in the area of

18 Slimene. And right before Slimene is where the Defence line of the 312th

19 Brigade was located.

20 Do you want me to indicate that on the map as well?

21 Q. If you could, if it's possible on the map, if you can indicate

22 the line between the 312th and the HVO forces in the area that you've

23 just indicated.

24 A. This would roughly be the line, if you're talking about the

25 312th. The 306th was to the left, or rather to the north, and southwest

Page 10357

1 we had the 308th Mountain Brigade.

2 Q. If we could, if you could indicate where those two units were

3 that you just mentioned, the 308th... ?

4 A. Yes. Do you want me to write down the number?

5 Q. Yes, please.

6 A. I don't know the exact location of the lines. I'll just write

7 down the.

8 Let me also indicate here.

9 Q. Now, if you could, please, sir, to the southeast of that line

10 you've just drawn indicate again on the map that that was the HVO, that

11 on the line -- that on the opposite side of that line that you just drew

12 were the HVO forces. If you could just mark that for us.

13 A. I'm not sure I'm able to be precise. But it was right across the

14 road to Novi Travnik. I shall mark it with a dotted line because of a

15 certain degree of imprecision, because I cannot remember the exact

16 location at this point.

17 Q. That's fine, sir. And if you could then, to the right-hand side

18 and below the dotted line, simply indicate "HVO" so we can all remember

19 several weeks from now what it is that you've drawn.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. Now, before we finish with the map, perhaps if you

22 could in the right-hand corner down towards the bottom where there's some

23 white space, if you could just initial that or sign your name on this map

24 and put today's date, that would be very helpful.

25 A. Here? [Marks]

Page 10358

1 Q. Thank you. Now, one last question about the map: The two lines

2 that you've drawn, the two solid lines, would it be fair to say that the

3 312th Brigade, that its area was within those two lines?

4 A. No. Militarily speaking, the area of responsibility involves

5 everything there is -- that's there. As for battleground and operations

6 theatre, it had to do with the deployment -- the military or combat

7 deployment of armed troops and everything that was indicated in area, in

8 that terrain.

9 As for the area of responsibility, I could have marked where the

10 17th was, where the battalion of the 7th was, and the reserve police

11 force. There were a number of various elements there. There was a

12 command of the oldest operational group there as well. So when talking

13 about area of responsibility, it has to do with the actual deployment of

14 troops, armed troops facing the enemy lines.

15 Q. And that -- thank you for correcting me on that. Let me ask you

16 a couple of questions, then, in terms of following up on what you just

17 told us. You mentioned that there was a unit of the 7th Muslim Mountain

18 Brigade that was in the area that you've just pointed to.

19 A. Yes, there was the battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

20 I mean, I merely indicated the area of the 312th. Now, if you're

21 referring to specific positions, I don't know that. Are you asking me

22 about the actual position of the 7th?

23 Q. Let's break this down into a couple of smaller questions. You

24 mentioned the battalion of the 7th. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 10359

1 Q. Do you know which battalion of the 7th was in this area?

2 A. The 1st Battalion, I assume. The reason why I can only assume is

3 because I did not always have opportunity to work with those guys from

4 the brigade command, and their headquarters were in Zenica. You know

5 that it is brigade commands that operate at the same level. They had

6 their own communication line with Zenica. But yes, we were more or less

7 informed about what was going on.

8 Q. Because, of course, you need to know if there were friendly

9 forces in the area where your troops were operating so as to avoid any

10 blue-on-blue or red-on-red fatalities?

11 A. By all means. As I indicated, I mean, I described the 7th -- the

12 battalion of the 7th as friendly force.

13 Q. Exactly. Do you know who the commander in 1993 -- the early part

14 of 1993, at least, who the commander of the 1st Battalion of the 7th

15 Brigade was?

16 A. No, I don't. I'm really sorry, but I cannot remember.

17 Q. Do you know -- sir, do you know where the headquarters of the 1st

18 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was located?

19 A. If my memory serves me right, their headquarters were located

20 next to the former building of the Ministry of the Interior, next door,

21 as far as I remember. If we go back a little, I know that members of the

22 HVO hoisted a flag of the State of Croatia on that building which then

23 provoked a number of incidents.

24 Q. Sir, I take it when you say the "Ministry of the Interior

25 building," you're referring to the MUP building in Travnik.

Page 10360

1 A. Yes, yes, in Travnik. It's not a very large building. It's a

2 two-storey house.

3 Q. Sir, I think we're finished with the map, so if you would like to

4 sit down, that's fine. If you prefer to stand, I don't mind that either,

5 but we're done with the map for now. Thank you.

6 Sir, during the period in 1993, were there any facilities within

7 the area where the 312th was located where soldiers of the 3rd Corps were

8 trained?

9 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean, "where they

10 were trained"?

11 Q. Well, during 1993 -- let's back up, then. During 1993, did the

12 312th Motorised Brigade undergo regular military training? Did you train

13 your troops?

14 A. Well, if only that had been possible. I do apologise. I

15 understand your question now. We did train the troops, but the training

16 wasn't such that I could train the entire unit, platoons, companies, and

17 battalion. Regardless of the kind of training concerned, the training

18 was partial. It involved individuals, the training of individuals, the

19 training of groups, and men who were in units and were not engaged in

20 combat operations at the time. So our plan was to finish the cycle of

21 training, whether it had to do with introducing them to certain military

22 theories or whether it had to do with the code of conduct, et cetera.

23 Everything that used to be done in peacetime couldn't be done with the

24 brigade members under the conditions that prevailed. But we had such

25 training areas behind the combat lines. I could show you where they

Page 10361












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Page 10362

1 were. It was perhaps a kilometre or two behind the lines in an area that

2 wasn't inhabited, and that is where the soldiers were trained in what one

3 would have to do in combat.

4 But we tried to complete the cycle of training regardless of

5 whether it had to do with combat or discipline, et cetera. But the

6 soldiers would be soldiers. There was a man in the unit -- there were

7 men who were shepherds in the unit, and there were others who had

8 university educations. There were some who were quicker and some who

9 were slower. You had to train the establishment units, and sometimes the

10 task was one that took a little time to execute. So the training that

11 was provided was provided in the field, in the combat area, or sometimes

12 in facilities where units were preparing themselves for rotation,

13 preparing to replace men who were already in the field. Such facilities

14 had been requisitioned for the purposes of the brigade.

15 Q. Can you tell us, other than these local training areas, if

16 soldiers from your -- from the 312th Motorised Brigade were sent to other

17 areas within the 3rd Corps for training.

18 A. Well, yes. That probably did occur. But to be more specific, as

19 far as I can remember, at that time there was a training centre in

20 Zenica, and we had recruits there, too, and we were training recruits

21 there at that time. We were training men who knew nothing about the

22 army, youths who had to do their military service. So this is something

23 that existed at the time. We had this training centre, this educational

24 centre in Zenica, and that is where these men would be trained to become

25 soldiers. And perhaps they were trained in legal matters to a certain

Page 10363

1 extent. Often there were seminars about the security service, and there

2 were issues relating to the assistant commander of the 3rd Corps. He

3 issued instructions, assigned tasks for the forthcoming periods. There

4 were intelligence tasks, et cetera, et cetera.

5 But we had to adapt to the new situation that had developed. The

6 conditions were not such as they had been during peacetime.

7 Q. Sir, who was responsible for this training? Who did the

8 training?

9 A. Well, the person who was most responsible to the training of

10 brigade members, if we're talking about the training of the entire

11 brigade, was the brigade commander. As far as plans are concerned,

12 engaging a certain part of the brigade, then it's that segment, the

13 battalion commander, that is responsible. If the task was to train men

14 how to carry out certain tasks, train men how to be disciplined, et

15 cetera, then this was his responsibility. But someone from the brigade

16 command had to be present. And this was usually the brigade commander.

17 He had to be present. He had to provide instructions, guidelines, and

18 then after the training had been completed he had to make a closing

19 statement and assign certain tasks after the entire training period had

20 been completed.

21 Q. Sir, were you aware of any instance during 1993 when foreign

22 soldiers or foreign fighters or mujahedin conducted any training for

23 members of the 312th Motorised Brigade?

24 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

25 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that in October or November 1992,

Page 10364

1 General Hadzihasanovic spent some time in Travnik. Other than this

2 occasion, do you remember any instances, other than this time you've told

3 us about, when General Hadzihasanovic visited Travnik or the 312th

4 Motorised Brigade?

5 A. Well, just a minute. Yes. Commander Hadzihasanovic visited the

6 brigade. I'll tell you the month. I think it was in June or in August

7 -- in July or August 1993 in my command post in Kraljevica. And the army

8 commander, Mr. Rasim Delic, was there, too. I know that it was a very

9 humid summer day, but I'm not sure whether it was in July or in the

10 August. That was the day when I as a brigade commander received a task

11 from the command of the operations group which was the oldest command.

12 It had been in existence before the command of the 3rd Corps. I was

13 given a task to prepare a briefing which was to be presented to the corps

14 commander and the army commander, and I was to inform them of the

15 preparedness of the brigade, the situation in the brigade, of problems,

16 and I was to make suggestions. The visit occurred in the morning, and he

17 was there for two or three hours.

18 Q. Other than this occasion that you've just told us about, do you

19 recall him being in Travnik or meeting with you or other leaders of the

20 312th Brigade during 1993?

21 A. No. Knowing Commander Enver, I doubt that he wanted to meet some

22 of my commanders. He wouldn't have wanted to do so without my being

23 presented. But I really can't remember now. If he had been present, I

24 as brigade commander would have been present, too, because he is a

25 soldier just like me and he understands such matters.

Page 10365

1 Q. Other than these two occasions when Commander Hadzihasanovic came

2 to Travnik, on how many occasions from the time of your appointment as

3 commander of the 312th to the end of 1993 did you travel to Zenica or

4 anywhere else to meet with General Hadzihasanovic?

5 A. Immediately after the brigade had been established, there was a

6 previously assigned task to prepare for a briefing on what had been done

7 with regard to the order for forming a brigade. That was in December

8 1992. And we informed them of what had been done. We informed them of

9 the level attained, we informed them of the problems, et cetera, et

10 cetera. What I said yesterday -- what I mentioned yesterday were

11 problems that all the brigades had, from Maglaj as far as Gornji Vakuf.

12 Later, I don't remember whether I was there in January, but I

13 know that I went on one other occasion. But the commander wasn't there.

14 His chief, I don't know whether it was Mr. Mekic or someone else, he

15 received us, and afterwards there were certain other events. Information

16 was provided. There were orders, and there was the formation of

17 operation groups. And all our duties, all our tasks, all our reports

18 were forwarded to the operation groups. There was a specific situation

19 in Travnik because we were tied to OG Zapad, and I only saw Mr. Selmo on

20 one occasion, you know, because at the time it was impossible to go there

21 via Donja Vakuf. The Serbian forces were present there. As for the

22 other roads, the checkpoints had already been erected and HVO extremists

23 had already mounted weapons in certain areas, and it was very difficult

24 to pass through. So in the second half of 1993, the situation was very

25 difficult and people were starving.

Page 10366

1 And it's interesting to point out that at that time, the

2 international community was present. There were large numbers of

3 refugees, and the Travnik area is a small area.

4 Q. I'm going to move on to a different topic now, sir. Yesterday I

5 believe you told us that your men were occasionally allowed to return to

6 their homes, and that some of them lived in Travnik, Kakanj, and other

7 places in Central Bosnia. Is that accurate?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also told us or mentioned, and you were shown some documents

10 to this effect, that a number of soldiers from the 312th Motorised

11 Brigade were referred to competent legal authorities and otherwise

12 disciplined for criminal activity. Do you remember that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. You also told us that - and this is a quote from the English

15 transcript - "there are quite a lot of proceedings instituted because of

16 looting." And my question, sir, is: First of all, do you recall

17 instituting proceedings concerning looting?

18 A. Proceedings instituted by the security organs in my brigade, that

19 is to say, by the military police, were then referred to the prosecution

20 office in the municipal court. I no longer remember how they operated

21 because they weren't my subordinates. But I think that at that time, I

22 didn't -- I wasn't much liked by my combatants. You know there was a lot

23 of hunger and people would be sentenced because of stealing a bag of

24 potatoes or they would be sentenced to 60 days in prison. But that was

25 the situation. That's how things were at the time, you know. I

Page 10367

1 understand all the rules. I know what has to be done. But that was the

2 situation and that was what was done.

3 As far as the criminal reports that our brigade service provided

4 to the competent court are concerned, I'm not sure how they proceeded.

5 I'm not sure how they characterised these crimes, because the judicial

6 authorities were after all independent at the time.

7 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you a couple of follow-on questions from

8 this. I guess my question is, sir, you told us you recalled a number of

9 proceedings involving looting. First of all, is that your recollection?

10 A. There were criminal reports as a result of looting. A number of

11 criminal reports were forwarded to the competent court because of the

12 looting that had occurred.

13 Q. Do you remember, sir, what geographic area these alleged looting

14 incidents occurred in?

15 A. Well, the documents show - and this can be seen in the statement

16 of reasons - it says proceedings were instituted because he stole

17 something from Bosniak houses or Croatian houses or there were villages

18 on the road from -- leading from the position to the house. So it didn't

19 just have to do with abandoned Croatian villages which we really had

20 secured. Let me tell you that my Croatian friends regret not having

21 looted to a greater extent, because after the war they weren't provided

22 with any humanitarian aid or any assistance; although we weren't

23 responsible, because the MUP was present there and the civilian

24 protection and the organs of power. But I did everything that I could to

25 protect all the villages and the Croatian people who had to leave those

Page 10368

1 houses because they were under threat. And thank goodness that people

2 have been able to return and people are happy to be able to live, at

3 least to a certain extent, in their houses, and they don't have to suffer

4 the consequences of what happened during that wartime period in 1993.

5 Q. Thank you, sir.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. I am approximately

7 about halfway done with the cross-examination. As Your Honours have

8 probably noted, the witness has given some lengthy and very helpful

9 answers. I would hope I could finish in another 45 or perhaps a little

10 bit longer than that, but not much more than that.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will have a

12 break now, and we will resume at 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may continue.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a series of questions concerning

18 reports or the initiation of investigations into alleged incidents of

19 looting. I understand from what you've told us that some of these

20 locations are not in the area where the 312th was located, but because

21 you told us that your soldiers were occasionally outside of that area,

22 whether on their way home or perhaps doing other things, I'm going to ask

23 you about this nevertheless. I would ask you if you have no information

24 simply to indicate that because there's a lot list of these questions,

25 and we need to move as quickly as possible.

Page 10369

1 Do you recall forwarding any reports or initiating any

2 investigations concerning alleged looting in Dusina in January 1993 by

3 soldiers of the ABiH?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question

5 falls outside the scope of examination-in-chief. And according to the

6 witness's testimony, he has indicated where his brigade was and where he

7 was present. There are no grounds for asking this witness such a

8 question.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as this issue is

10 concerned, Defence counsel produced an entire series of documents that

11 have to do with soldiers' behaviour, and in particular that have to do

12 with investigations that were launched within the 312th Motorised

13 Brigade. These are documents that were shown to the witness. The

14 Prosecution is asking the witness whether soldiers from the 312th

15 committed acts outside the zone of responsibility of the 312th while they

16 were returning to their families or going away on leave, et cetera. So

17 the question is directly linked to the investigations carried out because

18 it would be reasonable to know whether the soldiers of the 312th

19 committed crimes or misdemeanors that don't fall within the competence of

20 the 312th. So perhaps the witness could answer the question, and perhaps

21 not.

22 Mr. Caber, please answer the question. You have understood it.

23 It's very simple. The Prosecution is asking you whether soldiers from

24 the 312th committed any acts or any crimes that don't fall within your

25 competence; and if you found out about such crimes, what did you do?

Page 10370

1 Because you did launch investigations, et cetera. It's very simple.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecution referred to Dusina,

3 and I didn't have any men in that area, nor did any of my men commit any

4 such acts. They weren't involved in any looting. But I am familiar with

5 these matters.


7 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm going to ask you a series of similar

8 questions about a number of locations, and I will give you the name of

9 the location and the month during the year 1993 when these alleged

10 incidents occurred. Again, do you have any recollection of initiating or

11 forwarding any reports concerning alleged looting in the village of

12 Miletici during April 1993?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.

14 There is an error in the translation. It's on page 33, line 17. The

15 last sentence, according to the transcript, is "but I am familiar with

16 these matters," whereas the witness said that he never heard about that,

17 he knew nothing about it, whereas here it says that he knew about that.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you for the clarification.

19 Q. Sir, do you recall initiating any investigations or filing any

20 reports with the competent legal or law enforcement or judicial

21 authorities concerning alleged looting by ABiH soldiers in the village of

22 Miletici during April of 1993?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question seems

24 to indicate that the witness already said that he was familiar with these

25 events. I don't think that the Prosecution can ask a question this way.

Page 10371

1 He should first ask whether the witness knows anything about this, and

2 only after having put such a question to the witness can the Prosecution

3 ask whether there were any investigations.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Mundis, in order to

5 be quite clear, it would be best to ask the witness whether he knew

6 anything about looting incidents that didn't fall within his competence

7 for which he was not responsible, and in such a case what did he do. Try

8 and break the question up into two parts.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Sir, were you aware of allegations that ABiH soldiers looted

11 civilian property in Miletici during April 1993?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Soldiers from the 312th, not BH

13 soldiers. What's the sense of the question? Because if you're asking

14 about BH soldiers, there were 32.000 of them. He can't be familiar with

15 everything. He's familiar with the soldiers for whom he was responsible.

16 Because let us imagine the following case: A man from the 312th commits

17 an act in another area, and he is arrested. Obviously, this soldiers

18 wouldn't be in the force when he assumes his position, and he might know

19 that something happened [as interpreted]. So you must ask him questions

20 about soldiers under his responsibility. He can't know about soldiers

21 who belonged to the BH in general. Is that what the Defence wanted to

22 say?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what we wanted to say

24 first of all, and secondly, Mr. President, this question doesn't fall

25 within the scope of the examination-in-chief. And could provisions

Page 10372

1 contained in Rule 90(H) be respected and cross-examination should be

2 limited to examination-in-chief. Going beyond the scope of the

3 examination-in-chief must be justified. Why would the Prosecution want

4 to go beyond the scope of the examination-in-chief? And I think that

5 this is the same principle that was applied to Defence counsel.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But I'd like to point out

7 to the Defence that in the case of the examination-in-chief, you produced

8 documents about investigations. You showed them to the witness, and

9 there's one document referring to 61 investigations into soldiers from

10 312th. This is Document Number 959. It's a document which was shown to

11 the witness, and there are 61 cases referred to. On the basis of this

12 document, the Prosecution claims that there is a link, as one says in

13 English. And the Prosecution is asking the witness whether he was aware

14 of any other cases or of cases referred to in the list. Was he aware of

15 any soldiers who had committed crimes outside his zone of responsibility?

16 For example, in an area for which the 306th was responsible or the 17th,

17 for example, or an area for which some other unit was responsible.

18 So Mr. Caber, I think you have understood the question. Do you

19 think you could answer it because at the present a direct link to

20 Document Number 959.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, when members of the --

22 as far as members of the 312th Motorised Brigade are concerned, I cannot

23 be a hundred per cent sure, but I know that my colleagues from other

24 brigades did not inform me of such cases. Therefore, I do not know, and

25 I do not think that members of my units deployed in other areas of

Page 10373

1 responsibility, in areas of responsibility of other brigades, such as

2 306th, 308th, were not involved in such incidents. And you were right to

3 point out, Your Honour, even members of the 307th, because they were also

4 in the area of Bugojno, people who had come from the villages such as

5 Karaula who had abandoned their places of residence.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as Document 959 is

7 concerned, we have 61 cases of looting. We have the names of the

8 perpetrators. We have the references to the Criminal Code. But we do

9 not know the place where these crimes were committed. So the Defence is

10 right. And the Chamber also wanted to ask you this question: As far as

11 these 61 cases are concerned, were these violations committed in the area

12 of Turbe and Travnik where you were deployed, or is it possible that such

13 incidents, such crimes were committed in other areas? That is the

14 question. Is it possible that these incidents took place elsewhere, or

15 is it the case that these crimes were committed only in your area of

16 responsibility? That is, the area of Turbe and Travnik.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it happened a long

18 time ago. I saw this document only a few days ago. Whether these

19 incidents took place elsewhere and what exactly the cases were about, I

20 don't know. These matters were referred to the municipal court in

21 Travnik, and I really cannot remember the details of these cases.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Would you please continue, Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Q. Witness, were you aware of any soldiers of the 312th Motorised

Page 10374

1 Brigade operating in the area of Guca Gora in June of 1993?

2 A. In July 1993, there were no members of the 312th Brigade in the

3 area of Guca Gora.

4 Q. Sir, I asked about June. Perhaps it was a translation error. In

5 June of 1993, were any soldiers of the 312th Motorised Brigade in the

6 area of Guca Gora?

7 A. No, neither in June of 1993, there were no members of the 312th

8 Motorised Brigade in the area of Guca Gora.

9 Q. Were any members of the 312th Motorised Brigade or any

10 subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade operating in the area of

11 Maline in June 1993?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade

14 operating in the area of Cukle or Susanj in June of 1993?

15 A. I have already moved to the area which I'm not familiar with.

16 No, my brigade was not operating in that area, Cukle or Maline. That was

17 the area of another brigade. I did not have any subordinate units of my

18 own that would have been operating in that area.

19 Q. Just to go back to an area we talked a few minutes ago, do you

20 recall or do you have any knowledge of whether any units or subordinate

21 units of the 312th Motorised Brigade were operating in Miletici in April

22 of 1993?

23 A. I believe I have already indicated as far as that period of time

24 is concerned, which is the subject of your question, the brigade was not

25 operating in that area. That was the area of the 306th Mountain Brigade.

Page 10375

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Brigade

2 operating in the area of Ovnak in June of 1993?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade

5 operating in the area of Brajkovici in June of 1993?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade

8 operating in the area of Grahovcici in June of 1993?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were any subordinate units of the 312th Motorised Brigade in the

11 area of Vares in November 1993?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Witness, as the Presiding Judge just mentioned a few moments ago,

14 yesterday you were shown Defence Document 959 which, among other things,

15 indicated that at least up until 2 May 1993, the date of that document,

16 the military police of the 312th had referred several cases of murder to

17 local authorities, or local legal authorities, for action. Do you recall

18 the specifics of any of those cases, those murder cases?

19 A. I don't. As far as I remember, there were several cases of

20 traffic violations, even a number of fatalities in these traffic

21 incidents. As for murders, no, I should perhaps have a look at the

22 document. But I really don't remember. I mean, you can -- you know what

23 is contained there. If perhaps documentation from the court could be

24 obtained to that effect, that I would be able to remember. But off the

25 top of my head, no, I don't recall.

Page 10376

1 Q. And the fact that you don't recall, that would include any of the

2 victims or the status of the victims of those alleged murders?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 I'd like to move on to another area.

6 MR. MUNDIS: At this time, Mr. President, I would ask that the

7 witness be shown one of the videotapes, and I would ask that the sound on

8 that videotape, which is Prosecution Exhibit 762, not be played. In

9 other words, that it just be the video shown to the witness.

10 Before we do that, however, I would like to just explain to the

11 witness exactly what it is we're doing and why it is that we're doing

12 that, if I may do so.

13 Q. Witness, we're going to show you a videotape which will be

14 visible on the screen in front of you. And I would ask you to take a

15 look at this tape. And during the time that you are viewing the tape, if

16 you recognise the location of where this videotape was made, I would ask

17 you to say so. And you can simply do that as we're watching the tape. I

18 would also ask you if you recognise any person or persons on the

19 videotape, perhaps to indicate by saying "stop" and telling us the name

20 of the person or persons that you might recognise. And finally, at the

21 end of the tape, I will ask you if you're familiar with the contents of

22 what you've seen and if you can any way shed any light on what we've seen

23 on the videotape.

24 Do you understand what I've asked you to do?

25 MR. MUNDIS: With your leave, Mr. President, I would ask that

Page 10377

1 Prosecution Exhibit 762 be shown.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see that the Defence is

3 rising. I think I can anticipate their -- what they want to say. What

4 is the link between the video and the examination-in-chief? Is that what

5 you were going to object to, Ms. Residovic?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, because we do not see any

7 link whatsoever. I should like to see some foundation for this question.

8 Is it the video from the area of responsibility referred to by this

9 witness? That is, the combat lines and the area of responsibility where

10 elements of his brigade were deployed, because after all, that is what he

11 is able to talk about.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There are two questions: What

13 is the link with other members of the BH Army? They were members of the

14 BH Army after all, so there could possibly be a link. And then the video

15 and the geographical area of his command which was located to the west of

16 Travnik.

17 Mr. Mundis, as far as the Chamber is concerned, if you just tell

18 us 762, it doesn't mean much. Could you please clarify.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I would ask with all due respect if

20 the witness could be escorted out of the courtroom in order for me to

21 respond to these questions.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is exactly what we were

23 going to suggest, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you will have to

25 withdraw for a few moments. Do not stray too far from the courtroom.

Page 10378

1 Mr. Mundis, the witness has left the courtroom so that he cannot

2 be influenced by what you're going to tell us. We're listening.

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 First of all, let me put on the record as I should have done also

5 with respect to the last series of questions that of course the

6 Prosecution would assert that this line of questioning as well as the

7 last series of questions on disciplinary issues falls within the scope of

8 Rule 90(H)(ii), and that is that we are required to put our case to

9 witnesses who appear. And that is what we are attempting to do. And

10 although it might under some interpretations fall outside the scope of

11 the direct examination, it is our assertion that Rule 90(H)(ii) requires

12 us to put our case to witnesses, and that is exactly what we're doing.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You need authorise to do so.

14 In such a case, it is necessary for you to ask the Trial Chamber for

15 authorisation.

16 MR. MUNDIS: We will respectfully request that authorisation, Mr.

17 President, and hereby do so. Let me add that tape 762, which is in

18 evidence, the Prosecution believes that this videotape was taken in the

19 town of Travnik. Although there are only a few buildings or other

20 physical features that are visible on the tape because it's primarily

21 people, there are some buildings and locations in the background of that

22 tape which lead us to believe that this witness, as someone who was born

23 and grew up in Travnik, would be able to place this videotape in the town

24 of Travnik. Moreover, we would assert that it goes to the issue of the

25 Muslim forces which the witness talked about yesterday. The videotape

Page 10379

1 has a date stamp on it which the witness may or may not know anything

2 about that time period. If the date stamp is accurate, the witness was

3 certainly in Travnik at the time. There are persons that we believe the

4 witness might be able to identify. As was indicated yesterday I believe

5 at transcript page 41, 42, the witness talked about the Muslim forces or

6 the MS, the Muslimanske Snage, we believe that this videotape might

7 show -- the formation of some of these units. And we believe this

8 videotape was taken in Travnik in August of 1992, which is within the

9 time frame during which the Defence led evidence concerning this

10 incident.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, you're requesting leave

12 pursuant to Rule 90(H). We will withdraw for a moments to deliberate.

13 But we will back in a few seconds.

14 But first of all, we will hear what the Defence has to say. The

15 Prosecution was quite clear. This is a videotape that has to do with the

16 town that the witness is very familiar with since he had his office

17 there, he had his headquarters in Travnik. So the Prosecution wants to

18 ask him whether he can recognise his town. So the link is quite evident

19 in that case. And secondly, he wants to ask him whether there are any

20 persons in the video whom he recognises, perhaps his friends. What would

21 you like to say about that?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Prosecution

23 correctly quoted 90(H)(i) which says that if a witness can give evidence

24 relevant to the case for the party examining it. However, in (H)(ii) it

25 says, in the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give evidence

Page 10380

1 relevant to the case of the cross-examining party, counsel shall put to

2 that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel

3 appears, which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the witness.

4 First of all, my colleague from the Prosecution didn't make that

5 clear to the witness, and in no way did they say there was something in

6 contradiction to the evidence the witness gave. We believe that these

7 arguments should be presented before the Trial Chamber allows us to ask

8 questions -- the witness about the context. This is how we have

9 proceeded. So these questions fall outside the scope of

10 cross-examination.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a point 3 that gives

12 the Trial Chamber discretion to decide on the matter. But as far as item

13 (ii) is concerned, we are being asked whether so far you have elements

14 that contradict what the witness has said in his testimony. So far, he

15 has not denied being in Travnik. He hasn't denied knowing certain

16 people.

17 So in Rule 90 (ii), on the basis of this Rule, is there any

18 information, are there any elements that lead you to believe that the

19 witness might be contradicting himself? Although according to Rule

20 90(H)(iii), the Trial Chamber has discretion to permit any inquiries.

21 But as far as (H)(ii) is concerned, could you tell us whether you have

22 any elements, any information that might contradict the evidence given by

23 the witness so far.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps it's an interpretation issue.

25 Our understanding is not that we must demonstrate that the witness has

Page 10381

1 contradicted himself, which is how the English interpretation as

2 reflected in the transcript came from what Your Honour just said. Our

3 interpretation is that it must contradict our case. Our case has been

4 one - and we explained this in our 98 bis submission most recently - that

5 the Travnik -- the Muslim forces in Travnik evolved into the 7th Muslim

6 Mountain Brigade. This witness yesterday -- and that the TO was involved

7 in that, and eventual evolving nature of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

8 We explained that in our Rule 98 bis submissions, and if Your Honours

9 would like to me to cite the paragraphs, I can do that.

10 The witness yesterday at pages 41 and 42, and I think again at

11 page 44 if I'm not mistaken, indicated that there were contacts between

12 the commander of the Travnik TO and the Muslim forces in Travnik. He

13 then told us that the Muslim forces did not or were not under the control

14 of the Travnik TO. And I believe that's at line 21 on page 42 of

15 yesterday's transcript. That certainly contradicts the Prosecution case.

16 And we believe that the provisions of Rule 90(H)(i) including the final

17 sentence and Rule 90(H)(ii) permit us to show this to the witness.

18 It's entirely possible he won't recognise anything on the

19 videotape. But we believe that we not only can do this, but the Rules

20 are formulated in such a way that we are required to do that, once again,

21 once we have the Trial Chamber's leave.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will withdraw

23 for a few moments. We have understood the Prosecution has said. The

24 Prosecution says that they have certain elements on the basis of which

25 they believe that what the witness says is in contradiction of the

Page 10382

1 information that they have, and in particular it concerns the Muslim

2 forces present in Travnik. The Prosecution believes there is a

3 contradiction between its case and the testimony of the witness, and this

4 is the reason for which the Prosecution wants to show the witness the

5 video.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should like to

7 appeal to you that while determining this issue, perhaps you should have

8 a look at the testimony of the witness. Witness did not mention the 7th

9 Muslim Brigade yesterday. He spoke about the establishment of a group of

10 Muslim forces, as far as I remember. I don't have the relevant line in

11 the transcript, but what the Prosecutor is now trying to tell us, this is

12 not something the witness testified to yesterday. It is not in his

13 evidence.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will withdraw, and we will

15 be back in a few seconds.

16 --- Break taken at 4.38 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After having deliberated on the

19 basis of Article 90(H)(iii), the Chamber believes that the Prosecution

20 will be granted leave to ask questions on other -- or additional matters,

21 and in particular, questions on this video about Travnik.

22 Madam Usher, could you call the witness into the courtroom.

23 Mr. Mundis, how long is this video?

24 MR. MUNDIS: I believe the excerpt is about 6 to 6 and a half

25 minutes, Mr. President. And again, as with some of the other videos,

Page 10383

1 it's not the best quality, but it's the best we have.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Caber, you will now be

3 shown a video, and you will tell us what you think about it.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the person who is speaking

6 now. It's the Mufti from Travnik, Nusret Begovic. He's the one speaking

7 with the loudspeaker now.

8 And the location that we see on the screen, to tell you the

9 truth, I've already seen this clip on our TV in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It

10 was a political programme which lasted 60 minutes. So I am familiar with

11 some of the scenes. I am not familiar with the part relating to the war,

12 but I have seen the 60-minute long political programme a year or two

13 years ago. That is the only thing I can comment on. But this at the

14 time had nothing to do with me. At the time, I was a member of the

15 Territorial Defence staff in the vicinity of this location, in Medresa,

16 the lower part of Travnik where the headquarters were located some 300

17 metres away from here. I don't recall that period of time.

18 I was not present when this unit was lined up for inspection,

19 whatever the unit was called. I can only tell you the name that they

20 used in that programme, mujahed. But this is what I learned later on. I

21 don't recall this from the relevant times. The chief of staff had to be

22 present at the front line against the Serbs, and we are talking about the

23 month of August. And what I can tell you about it comes from the fact

24 that I saw the tape and I just recognised the Mufti, Mr. Nusret Begovic,

25 if this is the end of the clip, but there's probably more.

Page 10384

1 MR. MUNDIS: There is a little bit more, Mr. President, that we

2 would ask that that also be shown to the witness, with your leave.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman here is Mr. McLeod

5 [as interpreted]. This one at the left when I arrived in Travnik in

6 1995, he had his videotheque, a video club from before. These are the

7 people I found when I arrived in Travnik. You told me to identify the

8 people that I know. So that's one of them. Shall I go on?


10 Q. If I could, sir, the name, Mr. McLeod, was that the name of the

11 individual?

12 A. Mektauf.

13 Q. Can you spell that for us, please.

14 A. M-e-k-t-a-u-f.

15 Q. Can you please indicate to us on the screen, if you still see

16 this individual, which person he is on the screen. And if he's no longer

17 visible, we can rewind the tape a little bit until you again see him.

18 A. Could you rewind a little bit, just a little bit.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it will take us just a moment to take

20 that clip back.

21 Q. In the meantime, sir, do you know the first name or any other

22 information about Mr. Mektauf?

23 A. Abdul Mektauf, Abdul.

24 Q. Do you know where he's from?

25 A. I don't know. Either from Iraq or Syria, but I don't know. I

Page 10385

1 really can't remember. I know he's from an Arab country. I knew him

2 because he was in Travnik. I was not interested in him, you know. He

3 lived and worked there, you know. But would you rewind it a little bit,

4 please.

5 Q. We're still getting that back, sir. I have one last question

6 before we return to the tape. Did Mr. Mektauf speak Bosnian?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. I believe we've now rewound the tape, and as soon as you see him

9 come on to the screen, if you could tell us to stop, please, and I'll ask

10 you to identify, to describe what he's wearing, what he looks like on the

11 screen that's in front of you.

12 A. Yes, stop now. Stop. Rewind just a little bit. That's right.

13 The man has his arms behind his back. He's wearing a camouflage T-shirt.

14 He has closely cropped hair.

15 Q. Is this individual that you're describing clean-shaven or does he

16 have facial hair in the photograph?

17 A. It's not very clear. I don't think he's clean-shaven. Perhaps

18 he has a two- or three-day beard, but he's wearing a camouflage T-shirt.

19 His arms are behind his back, and if we're looking at the same image, it

20 says LP on his belt.

21 Q. Thank you, sir.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I would just simply for the sake of continuity, Mr.

23 President, ask that the videotape be played to its end, and then I'll

24 have a few remaining questions.

25 Q. And again, sir, if you spot anyone else or any other identifying

Page 10386

1 feature on this tape, tell us to stop the tape and we'll again stop the

2 tape. Thank you.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Sir, just to clarify then, the only two individuals that you

6 recognised were Mr. Begovic and Mr. Mektauf. Is that correct?

7 A. Avdibegovic.

8 Q. Can you please again for the transcript spell that for us,

9 please.

10 A. A-v-d-i-b-e-g-o-v-i-c. Avdibegovic.

11 Q. Thank you. And Witness, can you tell us the location of where

12 that videotape was taken, if you know.

13 A. Well, you can see that this was shot in front of the Medresa in

14 Travnik. That's at the entrance to Travnik. It's as you approach

15 Travnik from the eastern direction, from the direction of Vitez towards

16 Jajce, or rather Turbe. Do you know what a Medresa is?

17 Q. If you could explain that for the benefit of everyone in and

18 around the courtroom, that would be helpful.

19 A. At the time, the Medresa was used as a furniture salon. During

20 the communist period, it was a furniture salon. But a long time ago, at

21 the time of the Osmanlije, it was a religious school, a secondary

22 religious school for pupils of Islamic faith. That's what a Medresa is.

23 This name has been maintained because of the -- for traditional reasons,

24 because of the cultural situation. Because Travnik was the centre of the

25 Osmanlije Kingdom for a certain period of time, in the 15th and 16th

Page 10387

1 century. That is why the Medresa has that name, and it has its own

2 traditions, and it has a certain history.

3 But when this video was shot, it was used as a furniture salon.

4 It was used as a furniture salon at the time of the former Yugoslavia.

5 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday about the Muslim forces or the

6 Muslimanske Snage or MS, that was formed in Travnik. Do you remember

7 telling us about that yesterday?

8 A. Yes, I do. At the time of the TO staff, the time of the

9 detachment and the regional staffs, yes, I remember this. In the area of

10 the municipality, in the centre of town, someone launched the initiative

11 to form Muslim forces. They were supposed to follow a certain code of

12 conduct, et cetera. And these forces were not under the command of the

13 TO staff. And they went into action in the direction of the Serbian

14 forces in the area of Vlasic, in the area near to Jajce and at the time

15 that Karaula was in the hands of the TO. And later, they were in the

16 Bjelo Buca area. And once the army and brigades had been formed,

17 sometime in November, a battalion was formed out of these Muslim forces,

18 the 7th Muslim Battalion, and its headquarters were in Zenica.

19 Q. So sir, you're telling us that the Muslim forces from Travnik

20 later became the 7th Muslim Brigade?

21 A. No, they became part of the 7th Muslim Brigade. A battalion was

22 formed. They became a battalion.

23 Q. They became part of the 1st Battalion of the 7th. Isn't that

24 right?

25 A. That's right. That's right.

Page 10388

1 Q. And that was the battalion which remained in Travnik through

2 1993.

3 A. I don't remember whether they were there all the time, but yes,

4 it was -- its location was linked to Travnik.

5 Q. Were you aware, sir -- you told us that -- I believe you just

6 said someone was involved in forming the Muslim forces. Do you know who?

7 Who were the leaders? Who were the people involved in establishing the

8 Muslim forces in Travnik?

9 A. No. Whatever I said, it would only be guesswork. And it would

10 be based on newspaper reports, et cetera. If I go back to that time, I

11 can claim that I didn't know who the people who initiated this were.

12 But let me tell you that at that time, when I go back to that

13 period, to the year 1992 and 1993, or rather 1992 when the Muslim forces

14 were in that area, this didn't bother us, the TO staff, because they were

15 obedient. They carried out orders, but they weren't under our command.

16 They followed to an extent, or they followed more or less the code of

17 conduct for members of the Islam faith. They followed a code of conduct

18 that perhaps wasn't exactly the same of that of other units or that of

19 the TO. But as to who was responsible for its formation, I wouldn't

20 know.

21 Q. Sir, do you know Asim Koricic?

22 A. Yes, I do know Asim Koricic. I saw him at that time in 1992 and

23 in 1993, too. He is someone who often appeared in the TO staff. He

24 would have coffee there, speak to the commander. They probably spoke

25 about other matters, too. At the time, I think he was a commander. I'm

Page 10389

1 not a hundred per cent sure, but I think he was the commander of those

2 forces at that time because according to the chronology, later there was

3 the brigade formation, then the commander of brigades, and commanders of

4 battalions, et cetera.

5 But I'm not familiar with all of this. I don't want to get

6 involved in guesswork.

7 Q. You told us yesterday at page 42, line 21 of the transcript that

8 there were contacts between the commander of the Travnik TO and the MS or

9 Muslimanske Snage, Muslim forces in Travnik. What type of contacts were

10 these?

11 A. Very frequently, the staff commander didn't have the duty of

12 informing his staff about his conversations with his colleague, with

13 another commander. I assume that there could only have been a form of

14 cooperation in terms of engaging forces, where such forces were not

15 sufficient, in areas where they were fighting Serbian areas. That this

16 was the area that the TO staff covered, from Vlasic then up to Turbe, but

17 I'm not a hundred per cent sure about this.

18 Q. /Sir, the Muslim forces or MS in Travnik, was that unit or organ

19 or organisation comprised of local Bosnians or foreigners or both?

20 A. Well, it's interesting to note that at that time in Travnik,

21 people from Arab countries also started appearing, just like members of

22 humanitarian organisations and journalists came. They came to see and to

23 film what was happening to the Bosniak people. And I remember that in

24 1992, there were a lot of Arabs who, in the presence of the president of

25 the municipality, came to offer assistance to the TO and to the refugees.

Page 10390

1 They wanted to offer humanitarian assistance and food, but they also

2 wanted to help TO units that had logistical problems.

3 As far as the Muslim forces are concerned, as far as I can

4 remember, they mostly consisted of Bosniaks, Bosniaks from that area, you

5 know. I know that later on, quite a few people came from Bosanska

6 Krajina. There were young men who became part of that formation. And

7 they followed this code of conduct.

8 I know that at that time, before the formation of the brigade,

9 before the formation of the 7th Brigade, or rather, before the formation

10 of the battalion for Travnik, there were some of those people, there were

11 some of those Arabs who were part of these forces. As to what they did

12 exactly, well, it was probably what I was saying yesterday. It probably

13 had to do with the Croatian people and all those who wanted to help the

14 Croatian people -- well I assume they wanted to help the Muslim people,

15 just like others wanted to help the Croatian people. I saw two or three

16 people in uniform who were members of the Muslim forces at that time;

17 that is to say, before the formation of the 7th Battalion.

18 Q. And when you say you saw people in uniform who were members of

19 the Muslim forces at that time, were you referring to foreigners?

20 A. Well, they were probably foreigners. They were certainly

21 foreigners. They weren't people whom I knew from Travnik; therefore,

22 they were foreigners. I pointed to a man who was a foreigner at one

23 point in time, but then he became a Bosniak national. But as far as

24 these other people are concerned at the time, they were foreigners, at

25 least as far as I was concerned. I was an onlooker from the side. As to

Page 10391

1 whether they had any valid, legitimate documents, I don't know.

2 Q. And sir, when you say "I pointed to a man who was a foreigner at

3 that point in time," you're referring to Mr. Mektauf?

4 A. No, I don't think he was a foreigner at that time. He was a

5 member of the Bosniak people. I believe that he had the documents at the

6 time according to which he was a Bosnian. Because when I went to

7 Travnik, I lived in Travnik. I know that he had a shop of his own, a

8 video club, and I don't believe that as a foreigner he could have

9 received permission to have a private business of his own if he had not

10 been a national of Bosnia. I don't think that at that time in 1992 he

11 was a foreigner.

12 Q. But you told us he was not born in Bosnia. I believe you said

13 Syria or Iraq.

14 A. No, he wasn't. He wasn't born in Bosnia. As I said, he came

15 earlier on. According to the information I heard, all citizens in

16 Travnik knew this gentleman. Travnik is a small town. Everyone knows

17 that there was a video club called Palma, and that's where people would

18 go to borrow videos before the war. I don't know what else I could say.

19 Q. Sir, you told us that there were foreigners who came and also a

20 number of humanitarian agencies and a number of refugees. There were a

21 large number of people who were not from Travnik who came to Travnik in

22 1992. Is that an accurate summation?

23 A. That's correct. That's right.

24 Q. Do you have any idea as to an approximate number of foreign,

25 middle-eastern individuals who came to the Travnik area and who became

Page 10392

1 soldiers or fighters in the Travnik area?

2 A. No. I really don't have a precise idea. It would just be

3 guesswork. As I said, two or three men, a while ago. There were a few

4 of them in town. There were a few uniformed individuals from Arab

5 countries, as you say, or from the near east.

6 You know, I'm trying to be frank. I could tell you about

7 something that I saw later on, but I'm trying to be frank and tell you

8 about 1992, about what I saw in 1992. I didn't see many of them.

9 Q. Moving on then into early 1993, did you see more of them? Say,

10 in the first two or three months of 1993?

11 A. No, not in Travnik. Not in the town of Travnik. That battalion

12 of ours was already in existence. It was part of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

13 and it had its headquarters in Zenica. And the atmosphere was such that

14 the organs of power, or rather, through cooperating with the organs of

15 power, wanted to have the minimum number of uniformed individuals in the

16 town. But outside of my zone of responsibility -- everything I could say

17 would just be guesswork. In the Biljana area and the area of Zenica and

18 other areas I would say would just be guesswork.

19 I've already seen this video. It was shown on a political

20 programme. I saw it quite recently.

21 Q. Sir, you just mentioned "outside of your zone of responsibility,"

22 and I have a couple of questions about that. Were there areas that you

23 were aware of, that you had knowledge of, that had a high concentration

24 of foreign soldiers in Central Bosnia in the early part of 1993?

25 A. No. A high concentration of foreign combatants? No. No. A

Page 10393

1 high concentration; well, that really reminds one of the formation of

2 brigades, divisions, et cetera. I mentioned what we had. We had the

3 zones of responsibility for the 306th, the 312th, the 17th Krajina, the

4 7th Battalion. You know, those were the forces in Travnik. But as to

5 everything else you're asking me about, I could try to guess about these

6 matters, but it goes beyond that conflict, beyond the war.

7 Q. No, I'm not asking you to guess, sir. I'm wondering if -- rather

8 than focussing on brigades or divisions or large units like that, were

9 you aware of or did you have personal knowledge of specific locations

10 where there were, say, company-sized or even platoon-sized groups of

11 foreign soldiers in Central Bosnia in the early part of 1993?

12 A. I'll be frank: The first information I had about the existence

13 of such a unit came from UNPROFOR. The liaison officers often came to my

14 command post and provided the -- and provided me with information. So

15 that, as far as this El Mujahed unit was concerned, I don't know how that

16 would be translated, which would say deployed in the area of Biljana, in

17 the Travnik Municipality, or to be more specific, in Mehurici, liaison

18 officers from UNPROFOR, from BritBat, would often contact me, and they

19 were interested in the activities of these combatants. They weren't

20 active in my brigade's zone of responsibility. I didn't know much about

21 them. So there was such a unit in the area I have just mentioned, in the

22 Mehurici area. As to the strength of that unit, as to how it was

23 equipped, et cetera, I have no information. I didn't have any

24 information about that at the time. And likewise, I don't know under

25 whose command this unit was. It certainly wasn't linked to the army.

Page 10394

1 But I don't want to start answering other questions that you are surely

2 going to put to me.

3 Q. Sir, were you -- did you have knowledge of any foreign combatants

4 operating within your area of responsibility, within areas controlled by

5 the 312th Motorised Brigade?

6 A. No, as I have already said. In my area, in my zone, in my

7 brigade's zone of combat operations, no such foreign combatants were

8 present. I have information according to which they never appeared

9 there, because my battalion commanders would inform me, and I saw in the

10 conflict, the aggression and the entire situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina

11 from a different perspective, as well as what we had to fight for because

12 we didn't have any other state. I didn't need anyone else's -- I didn't

13 need anyone's assistance. My idea is quite different. I didn't need

14 anyone's assistance. We had enough forces. I perhaps needed weapons at

15 the time, but not men who would fight for me.

16 Q. You told us, sir, about receiving information from UNPROFOR and

17 BritBat. And among the things they told you about was, as you put it,

18 the El Mujahed unit in Mehurici. Other than -- other than -- those

19 international military personnel, did you have any other knowledge coming

20 from other sources about this unit in Mehurici?

21 A. Well, I mentioned the impossibility of having communications in

22 the case of command and control, when we're talking about the 3rd Corps

23 and the subordinate brigades, and I had one of those brigades. There

24 were operations groups that were formed. So in Travnik itself, the OG

25 Bosanska Krajina was active. It was headed by the late General Alagic.

Page 10395

1 On a number of occasions at briefings, I heard from the late

2 Alagic that he had problems with people who claimed to be the El Mujahed.

3 They would not obey and carry out orders. That's supposed to be just one

4 command, the oldest command in the town and in the zone that the OG

5 Bosanska Krajina had at the time. There were problems all the time. At

6 least, this is what I found out from Commander Alagic. These people were

7 people or groups who were not obedient. They didn't want to place

8 themselves under anyone else's command. And because of a certain code of

9 conduct that they had, they wanted to wage a war in the way that they

10 thought was most appropriate. They wanted to decide whether they were go

11 into combat on any given day or whether they would simply not go into

12 combat. This is what I heard from Alagic, and there were quite a few

13 problems. They didn't want to be placed under anyone's command. These

14 were the forces that were present in that area. As to whether they

15 engaged in combat or not, I do not know. I had problems of my own.

16 So sometimes I was sorry for the fact that the commander had to

17 deal with problems that shouldn't have been his, but that was a problem

18 that was present. It was a cancer that was present in his zone of combat

19 operations.

20 Q. Sir, you've used the term "code of conduct" several times. And

21 I'm wondering if you can perhaps elaborate or explain to the Trial

22 Chamber what exactly you mean by the use of that phrase "code of

23 conduct."

24 A. You see, I've never read it. But I have heard of its existence.

25 I know that such a code existed within such forces that had been

Page 10396

1 established. As to the contents of this code, I don't know. It is only

2 my assumption that it involved religious matters as well. But I couldn't

3 tell you more than that because I really haven't read it.

4 Q. Sir, this code of conduct, this document or pamphlet or booklet

5 or whatever, does that go by the title "Instructions for the Muslim

6 Fighter"?

7 A. I don't know. I really don't know. I was not familiar with such

8 literature at all.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence is on their feet,

10 but the witness has already said he didn't know.

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Since the

12 witness has already given the answer, there is no need to react.


14 Q. Sir, I have just a couple of questions. It was unclear to me

15 earlier when you spotted Mr. Mektauf on the videotape the time period

16 when I first met him or first knew him. Can you tell us, please, when

17 you first met this individual and roughly what year or time period.

18 A. In 1991 in August, after I had arrived from the former JNA, and

19 since a cousin of mine worked in his video club - she issued videotapes -

20 I went to see her, and it was on that occasion that I met her boss.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Caber.

22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

23 time, Mr. President. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will have a break in about

25 five minutes. I just have a few questions for you.

Page 10397

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The boss of your cousin, Mr.

3 Mektauf, do you know where he is at the moment? Do you know what his

4 whereabouts are currently?

5 A. Yes, I know. I learned through the media that he is in detention

6 in Sarajevo and that proceedings are currently underway against him.

7 Whether he's only a suspect or already an accused, I don't know.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you don't know anything

9 about the charges against him.

10 A. To be perfectly frank, Your Honour, I know only what I was able

11 to hear on the TV.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did they say on TV?

13 A. On TV, I heard that it is because of the fact that certain

14 individuals were taken away from Travnik and detained in locations which

15 were known only to him. So cases of disappearances of certain

16 individuals including a number of deaths. That's what I heard.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A moment ago when answering a

18 question that was put to you by the Prosecutor, you mentioned a briefing

19 with General Alagic, and you said that he had told you that he had had

20 problems with these foreigners, and you also indicated that they did not

21 obey orders, and that they were causing problems. Does that mean that it

22 is possible that these elements participated together with the BH Army

23 forces in certain military actions?

24 A. Most probably because of what I had already said with relation to

25 Mr. Alagic and the problems he experienced with such individuals it would

Page 10398

1 have never occurred to him to link the army with those forces. Because

2 from what he told me, it seems that they refused to obey orders. That is

3 the only knowledge that I have about these units.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does that mean if they refuse

5 to obey orders, that it is possible that they had been asked to take part

6 in military actions?

7 A. Well, Your Honour, before any troops can be used for military

8 actions, combat actions, such troops need to be placed under certain

9 command. As far as I remember, they refused to be placed under the

10 command of General Alagic.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the videoclip that we saw a

12 moment ago, dating from the month of August 1992, people were wearing

13 summer clothes in the video. We also saw a number of young soldiers

14 equipped, dressed up. We also saw a coat of arms or a sleeve band on the

15 right arm of one of them. I'm referring to the individual who was next

16 to Mektauf. Now, these soldiers, in your opinion, what were they doing

17 there and where had they come from?

18 A. The soldiers whom we were able to see lined up wearing uniforms,

19 I can only assume that they were linked to the area of Travnik, or

20 perhaps even a greater area, the area of Bosanska Krajina, because we had

21 able-bodied young men who had arrived in a convoy from that area. So

22 those would have been these young soldiers. And again, I have to go back

23 to what I earlier said: They became members of a formation that they

24 considered to be adequate for them. They never joined any TO units or

25 the brigade, but they joined these Muslim forces.

Page 10399

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your headquarters were located

2 in the vicinity. In your opinion, where were they quartered? Because

3 after all, there were several dozens of them. They must have been

4 quartered somewhere. Where?

5 A. Your Honour, my assumption is that some of them were located in

6 Medresa, or rather, the religious school which I talked about a moment

7 ago. And that the remainder were deployed in the area in the vicinity of

8 the front line against the Serbs because, after all, we were in August

9 1992. And as far as I can recall, elements of these forces were located

10 in the area to the northwest of Turbe, in Karaula. The name of the

11 location is Radalj, and there was also Ukalj. So it was in the area

12 towards Serb forces. Rotations carried out in the area, and probably

13 those who were located in the religious school went there. There was

14 Territorial Defence staff located in the area, and they must have

15 facilitated the passage of these units. So these units were rotated

16 because it was necessary to act jointly against Serb forces.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The date is the 21st of August.

18 It must have been in the afternoon because of the shades. The sun was

19 behind the soldiers. So this probably took place in the afternoon.

20 Which was the military authority that had the supreme power in

21 Travnik? Which was the military authority that was present in Travnik at

22 the highest level that could actually issue permission for such a

23 military ceremony to take place in Travnik in presence of a number of

24 civilians and religious authorities, and also someone who spoke on the

25 megaphone whom we could not hear, but who obviously was holding a kind of

Page 10400

1 rally? Who was the military authority that was able to organise such a

2 gathering, such a rally?

3 A. I don't know. The highest command at the time in Travnik was the

4 Territorial Defence staff headed by a commander. Whether permission was

5 indeed issued to that effect, I don't know. Moreover, I was not aware of

6 that rally. I was not aware of this inspection of ranks at all.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the last question before

8 the break: What is the name of the commander of the Territorial Defence?

9 A. The TO commander after me, from the 1st of June until the

10 formation of the brigades, that is, the month of November was Mr. Haso

11 Ribo.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But on the day this rally

13 was held, you were responsible; you were in charge of the TO.

14 A. No, no, Your Honour. I stated that I had been commander of the

15 Territorial Defence until the end of May 1992. After that, I was the TO

16 chief of staff from the 1st of June 1992 until the time when the brigades

17 were established. That period of time was covered by Mr. Haso Ribo. He

18 was the commander of the Territorial Defence, and I was the chief of

19 staff.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So on that day when this video

21 was filmed, you were the chief of staff.

22 A. That is correct.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to have a recess

24 and come back at 6.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

Page 10401

1 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to

3 resume with the hearing. I have just one final question for you,

4 Witness. After that, I will give the floor to the Defence if they wish

5 to ask any additional questions to you.

6 You have spoken this afternoon about OG Zapad, and in that

7 context, you also mentioned OG Bosanska Krajina. I should like to know

8 what operational group exactly you were part of.

9 Before you give your answer, let me just tell you that documents

10 have been tendered by the Defence according to which you received orders

11 from General Alagic. In particular, I am referring to the document which

12 states that the 312th Brigade was one of the addressees just as the 17th

13 Krajina and the 306th Brigade. I'm referring to the document 1005. This

14 document, therefore, says that you were part of the group which was led

15 by Alagic. Could you now tell us precisely who was your superior before

16 the 3rd Corps, because we have this operational group as well.

17 A. Your Honour, I was speaking about the difficulties that the

18 commander of the 3rd Corps was faced with in connection with command and

19 control with a large number of lower units, including brigades. And it

20 is with that objective in mind that the Operational Group Zapad and

21 Operational Group Bosanska Krajina were established in March and April in

22 1993. My command, the command of the 312th Brigade -- or rather, the

23 whole of the brigade, was part of the OG Zapad pursuant to that order,

24 which was located in Bugojno, whose headquarters were located in Bugojno.

25 All my reporting activities and also in terms of receiving orders from

Page 10402

1 the operational group went in that direction, and the other way around,

2 of course.

3 However, when combat activities started against HVO as well,

4 there occurred an interruption in communication in terms of command and

5 control. And in that sense, the 312th Brigade, not on its own but

6 because there was a higher command with headquarters in Travnik, the

7 Operational Group Bosanska Krajina which was linked to the 3rd Corps,

8 received tasks and reported also to the Operational Group Bosanska

9 Krajina. I cannot recall whether there was a specific order of the

10 3rd Corps to that effect, that that is how things should be done. But it

11 is my assessment as a soldier that that was how it was done, that there

12 were communications, obviously, with the Operational Group Zapad in

13 Bugojno. But we also received tasks from the Bosanska Krajina

14 Operational Group. And we also received orders from that group.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you're now confirming that

16 you were also under the authority of General Alagic?

17 A. That is correct, yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have Exhibit

19 304, which is part of the record. General Alagic is the author of the

20 document, and he described the situation in Travnik, and he indicated,

21 concerning the unit under your command, that you were faced with Chetniks

22 and that you had 270 men under your command and that you were placed in

23 Travnik. It's a document dating from the 13th of April. So if that is

24 what General Alagic said, he then believed that he had under his command

25 304, 312th, the 17th, the 7th Battalion, and the 306th Brigade.

Page 10403

1 I have no further questions for you -- well, I would have -- we

2 would have additional questions for you, but because of the time

3 constraints, we cannot address everything. You are the only military

4 commander who has appeared so far before the Chamber and who has been

5 able to speak about the BH army. There may be other issues as well, but

6 we might raise them with other witnesses. Time flies, and we just have

7 50 minutes left for questions, if any, by the Defence.

8 Let me now give the floor to the Defence to see if there are any

9 questions that have arisen as a result of the questions asked by the

10 Chamber -- or rather, by myself since my colleagues did not have anything

11 to ask.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr.

13 President. I do have additional questions for this witness.

14 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Caber, in response to a question put to you

16 by my learned colleague you clarified that Commander Hadzihasanovic paid

17 two visits to Travnik and in turn you visited Zenica on two occasions,

18 and you met Commander Hadzihasanovic on one of those occasions. And on

19 the other occasion, you met with the chief of staff, Mr. Mekic.

20 In connection with that, could you please tell us the following:

21 Were other members of the command of the 3rd Corps acting pursuant to

22 their assignments, their tasks, and did they also pay visits to your

23 brigade as part of their duties -- the duties that they had as members of

24 the command of the 3rd Corps?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10404

1 Q. I'm referring to the answer that you gave me yesterday, that is,

2 that the command issued you orders, that you sent them reports, and that

3 members of the command would visit you to verify that the orders were

4 indeed carried out. So in addition to the visit by Commander

5 Hadzihasanovic, I would like to know whether other members of the command

6 of the 3rd Corps came to see you, and if so, with what specific

7 assignments.

8 A. So let me repeat: Yes, responsible officers from the command of

9 the 3rd Corps did visit us in connection with a number of issues such as

10 combat readiness of troops facing Serb forces; and also, what was

11 particularly interesting, they wanted to know how well equipped and well

12 disciplined the troops were, the troops located at the forward line, and

13 they would draft reports thereof. And I would receive such reports; not

14 only myself, but other members of the staff as well.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I believe we have clarified the answer that

16 you gave to my colleague from the Prosecution.

17 You also spoke of and you indicated on the map the combat lines

18 that you maintained against Serb forces. And you also responded to a

19 question by Mr. Mundis regarding your positions against HVO forces at the

20 time. Tell us, please, what is exactly the Travnik Brigade?

21 A. I'm not sure I understand you.

22 Q. Was there an HVO brigade in Travnik, and what was its name?

23 A. Yes, there was an HVO brigade in Travnik which was called

24 Travnicka Brigade. There was another one, speaking of HVO, which was

25 called Frankopani, and that was in the area of Guca Gora. That is where

Page 10405

1 their headquarters were.

2 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about the fact that HVO units at one point

3 took position of elevated ground. Tell us, please: Where were the units

4 of the HVO Travnik Brigade located -- rather, deployed in April, May, and

5 June just prior to the outbreak of the conflict, in the town itself and

6 in the area around the town?

7 A. As far as the town itself is concerned, in that context I can

8 mention the former JNA club. That is where they were. That will be the

9 command of the 7th Corps later on, Sebisic. And then I remember they

10 took possession of some premises that had been used by various companies.

11 So this is as far as the staff and the command is concerned.

12 As for the troops, I think that I indicated yesterday that they

13 took possession of high-ground area to the south and to the north of

14 Travnik. I'm referring to the mountain of Vilenica and the southern

15 slopes of Vlasic, in particular, the area of Kajabasa. This was a high

16 area that was not in direct contact with Serb forces.

17 Q. Can you tell us, please, who was deployed at Hajdarove Njive and

18 whether that area also dominated the town of Travnik, whether it was also

19 high ground above the town itself.

20 A. That is the area located 500 metres from the facility that we saw

21 a moment ago, from the religious school. And it is high ground with

22 respect to the religious school, in military terms. That is the only

23 spot from which one is able to control the religious school.

24 Q. Is it possible to control the area of Travnik, the town of

25 Travnik, from these elevated points that you mentioned?

Page 10406

1 A. Yes, yes. And as far as Serb forces are concerned, Serb forces

2 that were deployed at Vlasic, that applied to them, too. They were on

3 elevated ground.

4 Q. Speaking of the confrontation with the HVO, tell us, please, who

5 held the approach road to Travnik from the direction of Vitez?

6 A. There was an HVO checkpoint in the area of Dolac on Lasva, which

7 is a junction on the road towards Travnik. And also in the area of Guca

8 Gora.

9 Q. In connection with that, I should like to know whether at the

10 time of the attack on the town of Travnik, whether the line of

11 confrontation against the HVO stayed in the area that you indicated on

12 the map, or whether these locations, these spots were also part of the

13 confrontation line.

14 A. Yes. I was referring only to the area in connection with the

15 312th Brigade. However, to the north and to the east towards Novi

16 Travnik, there were also units of the brigade -- the units which were in

17 contact with HVO forces.

18 Q. My learned friend also asked you about possible violations

19 committed by members of your brigade outside the area in which you were

20 militarily active. As far as I understood his question, he wanted to

21 know whether you were aware of any such conduct on the part of your

22 soldiers who were on leave. Yesterday, I showed you a large number of

23 documents in which you requested your troops to come from various

24 locations, Vitez, Mehurici, Zenica, and some others. I would like to

25 know why your men were there at all. How come they were there? And who

Page 10407

1 were they?

2 A. They were fighters from the Travnik Municipality, from the

3 military zone of the former TO. And since that area had fallen into Serb

4 hands - I am referring to a large area of the Vlasic plateau and

5 Karaula - most of these villages were either Muslim or Croat villages,

6 and the population was forced to abandon these villages, and they

7 eventually arrived in Travnik. So they were accommodated either in

8 Travnik, in the town of Travnik or in the surrounding villages. So many

9 of these soldiers were from there, and they had their families there.

10 And many of them also went to Zenica and Kakanj to find accommodation

11 there. And whenever they would go back to that area, there would be

12 problems. I spoke about the issues related to the passage of troops and

13 similar.

14 Q. Did you have barracks in which you were able to accommodate the

15 people who were not residents of Travnik?

16 A. No, no, we didn't have barracks where we could accommodate a

17 platoon or a company, let alone a battalion. There was barracks in the

18 centre of the town, but it was used for accommodation of refugees. And

19 also members of the 17th Krajina Brigade.

20 Q. Mr. Mundis asked you a number of questions in connection with the

21 possible participation of your units in combat operations in the greater

22 area of Travnik Municipality. I should like to know in connection with

23 that whether you had a Howitzer in the 312th Brigade.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where was it? And also where was the crew of that Howitzer?

Page 10408

1 A. We had combat positions in Bas Bunar, in that area. And in light

2 of the way this Howitzer was used, it was necessary for it to be there

3 because of the range and the Serb forces. In the area of Biljani, we had

4 -- I don't know the exact location because we didn't have enough men in

5 that area, the area stretching from there to Vlasic plateau. So I cannot

6 recall the exact location of that 105-millimetre Howitzer in the area.

7 Q. I apologise for the leading question. But can you please

8 clarify, is that the area where units of the 306th were also active?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. In response to a question about the protection of the population

11 in your zone of combat operations, you said that you took all the

12 necessary measures to protect their houses, et cetera. And you said that

13 you did this because these inhabitants left as they had been threatened

14 by arms. Who had threatened these inhabitants? And we're referring to

15 the Croatian inhabitants of these places.

16 A. Yes. Unfortunately that happened at the beginning of June 1993.

17 The inhabitants of Croatian villages were forced to leave.

18 Q. Who forced them?

19 A. HVO members did. And how do I know this? I know this because

20 many citizens, when they returned later on in 1994 and after the

21 Washington Agreement, they returned and said we went to Vlasic. We were

22 received by the Serbian forces. They took to Kiseljak, et cetera. We

23 were maltreated. We didn't want to go. So such information was provided

24 in conversation with them. And the citizens said that these soldiers

25 forced them to go to the area where there were Serbian forces who took

Page 10409

1 them over and then transferred them to the Kiseljak region.

2 Q. In connection with a question put to you by the President of the

3 Chamber about your resubordination and in connection with an answer you

4 provided yesterday according to which the OG Bosanska Krajina had a task

5 that wasn't related to the area in question, my question is: Do you have

6 any knowledge as to whether the OG Bosanska Krajina in some -- at some

7 time in 1993 was assigned other tasks? And did you have orders from the

8 3rd Corps according to which you were to obey orders issued by the OG, by

9 the operation group?

10 A. Well, as I had the opportunity of listening to certain

11 activities, to listen to information about the activities of OG,

12 operations group, their task was to form the free men to join brigades so

13 that they could raise the blockade of Sarajevo. What happened happened.

14 Certain activities were carried out that didn't correspond to the main

15 idea, the main plan. So the Bosanska Krajina OG which didn't -- which

16 wasn't linked to the combat zone had the main task of raising the

17 blockade of Sarajevo. And as such, it took upon itself the duty to carry

18 out the activities that were carried out in 1993. This was done because

19 of the impossibility of command and control, because of the impossibility

20 of acting together with the command of us with other brigades who

21 couldn't communicate with OG Zapad. It was impossible for the newly

22 developed situation to be solved.

23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Caber, you have been shown a video in which you

24 saw on television, too. You recognised the location where it was shot,

25 and you recognised -- you identified two persons. Please tell me, the

Page 10410

1 Territorial Defence staff of which you were a chief at the date that you

2 mentioned, was that TO staff -- did that TO staff establish military

3 power in the municipality? Was it, in fact, the body that had authority

4 to issue orders, or did you have some other kind of tasks? And if so,

5 please tell us what sort of tasks you had.

6 A. The Territorial Defence staff didn't have military authority of

7 any kind. When you say "authority," it means that you have a president

8 of the municipality, that you have control over the economy. It means

9 that the people in the municipality were under their authority. But no,

10 this was not the case. They weren't under the staff command. The

11 command of the TO staff had to perform duties at the front lines. They

12 had to engage troops and units. But also in cooperation with the legal

13 authorities, in cooperation with the municipality, they had to ensure

14 that there was logistical support for the combat operations; that is to

15 say, they had to ensure that food was provided.

16 Q. Yesterday you said that the HVO was present there and today said

17 that the HVO and the police were present, the HVO and armed forces were

18 present there. Did any of them have weapons? Was the police force

19 armed, or the HVO or the reserve police force? Did they need permission

20 of any kind? Did any of them need to request permission from the TO

21 staff if they wanted to gather in some place in Travnik?

22 A. No, not from the TO.

23 Q. If anyone gave permission for people to gather in Travnik, which

24 organ would issue such permission?

25 A. That would be the wartime presidency in Travnik Municipality,

Page 10411

1 which was headed by the president of the municipality, and it was

2 composed of -- well, I don't know exactly who it was composed of. I just

3 know that the commander of the TO staff wasn't part of that wartime

4 presidency.

5 Q. After having seen the video, you commented on something that you

6 had seen on television a year or two ago. But my question is at the

7 time, as chief of the staff, did you have any knowledge about who formed

8 the Muslim forces? Do you know who their command was, or did you have

9 any knowledge about how they were organised? As a result of the post

10 that you held, do you have any knowledge of this with regard to those

11 forces that had been formed independently of the TO? Have you understood

12 my question?

13 A. Yes, I'm waiting for the end of the interpretation. But no, I

14 didn't know anything about this. As I told your learned colleague, I

15 didn't know who this -- who composed this formation. Perhaps there were

16 refugees, refugees from Bosanska Krajina. As to the officers, as to the

17 superior-subordinate relationship, no, I don't know. I don't know

18 anything about that.

19 Q. You also answered a question put to you by my learned colleague

20 by saying that you thought that those -- that later on, after the BH Army

21 had been formed, you thought that these Muslim forces to enter [as

22 interpreted] the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim. My question is do you

23 know whether all of these forces entered and became part of that

24 battalion? Or did just part of these forces entered that battalion? Or

25 would you be able to say which members of those Muslim forces entered the

Page 10412

1 1st Battalion? Do you know anything about this? Do you personally know

2 anything about this?

3 A. Well, look, all I know is what I as a soldier always respected.

4 All those who wanted to be under a single command and who wanted to

5 respect orders from a single command, such people were always welcome.

6 And as such, they probably become members, not only of the 1st Battalion

7 of the 7th, I assume that that was the case for the entire BH Army.

8 Your question was perhaps a little more specific. This is a

9 question that was also put to me by the Prosecution. There were also

10 people who were not willing, that -- well, let's say from the area of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but they were not willing to be placed under that

12 command. So I assume these people didn't even become part of the 7th.

13 That is information that I later obtained.

14 Q. Mr. Caber, you also spoke about the attendance of certain

15 meetings at which General Alagic spoke about the groups who refused to be

16 placed under the command. And you also mentioned discussions with

17 members of the international community, and they spoke to you about the

18 existence of these groups. Given what you have just said, you said that

19 after the conflict, you were not in contact with your command. Can you

20 tell us when this occurred. Was it in mid-1993, in the second half of

21 1993, or in the first half of 1993? Is that when these stories of

22 certain groups of mujahedin were stories that were told to you? Can you

23 go back in time and tell us whether you can remember the period, the time

24 when this occurred?

25 A. It was in the summer of 1993. I really don't know the month. I

Page 10413

1 know that it was in the summer of 1993.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the President of the Trial

4 Chamber mentioned Document P304 and it's not a document we can have a

5 look at right now -- or in fact, we do have the document here. I

6 apologise. But could we show the witness this document that the

7 President of the Chamber referred to so that the witness can tell us

8 about the nature of this document. I would like to ask the usher to show

9 Document P304 to the witness, and we can provide a copy if you can't find

10 one.

11 Q. Before you are shown this document, I would like to ask you

12 another question because you are a member of the military. The units and

13 commands that act or that acted in the area where your unit acted, was it

14 customary for those units to inform you about the action they would take

15 even if they were not subordinated to you or even if you weren't their

16 superiors? Was this customary?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you have a look at the document now. Is this an order of

19 some kind?

20 A. Well, this is a report from the 3rd Corps command on the

21 situation in Travnik. And a reference is made to brigades for

22 communications and linked to the Zapad OG. We can see that this highest

23 command in Travnik because of the impossibility of these units of

24 communicating with OG Zapad undertook the duty to report and establish

25 contact with the units referred to.

Page 10414

1 Q. Thank you. You can return the document now.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

3 another document. And questions were put to the witness in relation to

4 this document. The document in question is Defence Document Number 1155.

5 We have the document here, and it has not yet been admitted into

6 evidence. So perhaps it would be simplest if we showed the witness our

7 document.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You could perhaps put it on the


10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Have you had the opportunity of examining the document? You can

12 have a look at it like that. Everyone will be able to see the document

13 on the monitor.

14 What sort of a document is this?

15 A. This is a document in which the commander of the Bosanska Krajina

16 OG is ordering --

17 Q. Are we looking at the same document? Is this an order --

18 A. No, this is an information -- let me just have another look.

19 Q. Please tell me, is this an order or is this some other type of

20 document?

21 A. This is a piece of information or report according to which the

22 commander of the Bosanska Krajina OG is informing commands in the zone of

23 operations which were linked to the Zapad and Bosanska Krajina OGs. He's

24 informing them about the situation. And above all, about the objective

25 of protecting and taking measures to prevent looting in abandoned

Page 10415

1 villages.

2 Q. Thank you. Since you are a soldier and I am not, can you please

3 tell me whether these two documents, the report we have shown you and

4 this information that you have in front of you which was issued by

5 Commander Mehmed Alagic, can you tell us whether in military terms you

6 can demonstrate anything with regard to the superior-subordinate

7 relationship between the high and low commands. Is there anything that

8 can be concluded on the basis of these documents with regard to

9 subordination?

10 A. Yes. Since the command for the Bosanska Krajina OG at the time

11 in question, at the beginning of June, was in the situation it was in,

12 and we know what sort of a situation it was in, they undertook not to

13 remain passive observers, but they undertook to exercise control and to

14 inform units since according to their estimate they should be aware of

15 what their duties were. This seemed to be a professional way of

16 proceeding.

17 Q. Are these documents of an informative kind for the units in that

18 area, or are they documents that demonstrate the way in which command was

19 performed for the units referred to here?

20 A. Well, look, it's both informative, but it also requests that

21 commands take certain measures and carry out certain tasks. So it

22 contains elements of both of these things. Information is provided and

23 tasks are also assigned.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Caber.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions.

Page 10416

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll turn to the other Defence

2 team now.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

4 only have -- we have only one question for Mr. Caber.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

6 Q. And it relates to a question put by Ms. Residovic. It has to do

7 with the Muslim forces that you mentioned, the Muslim forces that were

8 present in the Travnik region up until the time of the formation of the

9 brigades in the corps. If I told you that certain members of the Muslim

10 forces joined units other than the 7th Brigade 1st Battalion and units

11 that were placed under the command of the 3rd Corps, for example the

12 306th Brigade, the 17th Krajina Brigade, and the 307th Brigade, you would

13 probably agree with me.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was the only

16 question I had for this witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to ask

20 whether once you have finished with your questions, once we have finished

21 with the witness, whether it would be the right time to address the issue

22 of documents.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Witness, this concludes your examination. You have been here for

25 two days and answered numerous and various questions. You have answered

Page 10417

1 the questions put to you by the Prosecution, by the Defence, and by the

2 Chamber. Thank you for your testimony. We wish you a good trip home,

3 and we wish you all the best in your post in the Ministry of Defence.

4 I will now ask the witness to escort you out of the courtroom.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have some documents to deal

8 with. I believe that the Prosecution would also like to tender the map

9 into evidence. But Defence counsel may take the floor.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the documents that

11 we have provided the Prosecution, the Trial Chamber has also been

12 following the documents we have shown to the witness. We suggest that

13 all these documents be admitted evidence as Defence exhibits, from 1 to

14 26 -- the documents 1 to 26, documents that the witness identified as

15 documents that he himself drafted, or documents that his brigade drafted,

16 or that he as commander of the 312th Brigade received. So given that the

17 witness has identified the documents and he has spoken about the contents

18 of these various documents, we believe that all the conditions have been

19 met for these documents to be admitted into evidence.

20 The witness also identified all the documents referred to under

21 part A, Combat Report. These documents are documents 1 to 9. He

22 identified them as documents which were combat-related reports, regular

23 and irregular reports, and his command forwarded them to him at times and

24 in the manner indicated in these documents. They were regular and

25 interim reports.

Page 10418

1 And the witness in the course of his testimony also mentioned

2 various events referred to in these documents. For these reasons,

3 Defence counsel suggests that all these documents be admitted into

4 evidence.

5 And finally, under Section B entitled "Movement," we have

6 documents identified by the witness as documents that he drafted himself

7 or as documents that his chief of staff or battalion commander drafted.

8 He had a -- examined a significant number of the documents, and he has

9 testified in detail about the events referred to in the documents. He

10 was also shown a document in which the HVO responds to his requests, and

11 he identified the facts in the document he was shown, that it was a

12 document that was a response to his request. Since this witness is

13 familiar with the documents and since the witness spoke about the facts

14 related in these documents in answers to questions put to him, we believe

15 that all the conditions have been met for all the documents under the

16 title "Movement," documents 1 to 26, be accepted as -- be admitted into

17 evidence.

18 Under Section 2 entitled "The HVO," the Defence referred to six

19 documents, five of which -- four of which were shown to the witness. The

20 witness hasn't seen the documents before, but he was familiar with the

21 facts related in each of those documents. He knew who the people were

22 who had been appointed to posts within the parallel organs of power in

23 Travnik. He insisted on the fact that they were the only legitimate

24 organs of power and that parallel judiciary organs were established. And

25 he also mentioned that the document on number 4 referred to facts

Page 10419

1 according to which the conflict in Novi Travnik in 1992 were not provoked

2 by the Armija, by the army, but by the HVO. The witness wasn't shown

3 documents under number 5 and 6, but the witness did testify about some

4 facts related in these documents. In fact, he said that he knew that on

5 the 8th of April in Travnik, there was a meeting of HVO representatives,

6 and Dario Kordic, among others, attended it. And with regard to the

7 events that followed -- and he also spoke about the events in which two

8 of his soldiers were killed.

9 Given that the documents under 5 and 6 relate to those events, I

10 believe that we have good reason to have these documents admitted into

11 evidence. And this is also valid for documents 1 to 4.

12 For these reasons, the Defence suggest that all these documents

13 be admitted into evidence. Could they be admitted under these numbers.

14 And in accordance with the Chamber's order, we will provide for the

15 purposes of identification all the documents that we have on our complete

16 list of documents. This will enable us to maintain the same number on

17 the document. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, your observations.

19 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

21 admits into evidence all the documents contain in the binder, and there

22 is a list of these documents contained at the beginning of the binder.

23 For the BH, we have 26 documents; combat reports, 9 documents; under

24 movement, there are 21 documents; under HVO, there are 6 documents. I'd

25 like to point out for the sake of the transcript that the document under

Page 10420

1 the title "BH" number 4, Document 613, this is a typing error in the

2 English version because the name of General Enver Hadzihasanovic -- well,

3 we have an address email which is indicated, and at the time there was no

4 email. So instead of typing Z, we have an email address. It's a slight

5 typing error. Nothing escapes the Trial Chamber's attention. I wanted

6 to point this out.

7 Mr. Registrar, you will have to give us numbers for these

8 documents. Perhaps not tonight because this involves a lot of work.

9 Perhaps tomorrow you will provide us with the relevant numbers.

10 Mr. Mundis -- yes, I will give the floor to Defence counsel.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence would

12 like to ask the Chamber for one additional decision. We have invited

13 three to four witnesses for this week. As a result of the problems that

14 have arisen in the meantime, and because we had a BH Army officer as a

15 witness for the first time, that examination took longer than expected.

16 As we indicated, the second witness, Mr. Siljak, who was a member

17 of the municipal staff of the defence and then throughout 1993 he was the

18 chief of staff of the 306th Brigade, he's a witness that we scheduled for

19 two days. And I believe that it is the interest of Tribunal and the

20 Defence of our client and in the interests of truth that we should not

21 shorten the examination of that witness. So we, therefore, suggest that

22 he be the first witness and not Witness Mesanovic. I'm referring to the

23 next week.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're telling us that the

25 witness who had to arrived on Friday will be examined next week because

Page 10421

1 the second witness will need two days because of the fact that he

2 occupied a certain position in the 306th Brigade. Very well. We can

3 only agree with your suggestion because then that will be the witness for

4 next week. We were asking ourselves who the witnesses would be. We have

5 the session on Tuesday afternoon, because Monday is a holiday. Then also

6 Wednesday afternoon, Thursday afternoon, and also we wanted to know

7 whether there would be a session or Friday or not. On the table of the

8 Registrar, there was an empty courtroom due to technical reasons. So

9 does that mean that there will be no session on Friday afternoon, or is

10 it maybe possible to schedule a session?

11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it seems there cannot be any

13 hearing on Friday afternoon in this courtroom due to technical reasons.

14 Mr. Mundis, we still have several minutes for the map which is on

15 your left.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. With the leave of the

17 Trial Chamber and perhaps if there are no objections from the Defence,

18 what the Prosecution would propose doing is marking this map for

19 identification, and then allowing subsequent witnesses to make further

20 markings on that map, perhaps using different coloured markers. That way

21 we don't have 10 or 12 versions of this map with different units marked

22 on there. That's what we would propose, unless there are objections to

23 that. So we would mark it for identification for now, and subsequent

24 witnesses could use different coloured pens or we can address that issue

25 as we go. But just to keep the fewer number of maps that come in as

Page 10422

1 possible.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The only technical question is

3 will we have enough various coloured felt tips, because if there are 10

4 or 12 witnesses we will need 12 colours. We are familiar with primary

5 colours, but we will require perhaps secondary colours.

6 If Defence counsel has no objections to raise, we'll mark this

7 for identification, which means that the map could be used, providing we

8 use various colours. Mr. Registrar, could we have a number marked for

9 identification.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be marked for

11 identification under number P930.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13 Are there any other issues that the Defence would like to raise? No.

14 The Prosecution? No comments.

15 We had planned to have the hearing tomorrow in the morning

16 instead of in the afternoon. But apparently that might cause a number of

17 problems. So we will have the hearing tomorrow in the afternoon. It

18 will commence at 2.15, and I will see everyone in this courtroom tomorrow

19 at 2.15. We will now adjourn, and we will resume at 2.15. Thank you.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

22 October, at 2.15 p.m.