Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11576

1 Thursday, 11 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, good morning. Case Number

8 IT-01-47-T, The Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] May we have the appearances for

10 the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,

12 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis, and the case manager,

14 Andres Vatter.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And the appearances

16 for the Defence counsel.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good

18 morning, Your Honour. For the Defence of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,

19 Edina Residovic, myself, counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel, and

20 Alexis Demirdjian, legal assistant. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President,

23 good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon,

24 Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber would like to

Page 11577

1 welcome everybody in the courtroom, the Prosecution, the Defence counsel,

2 and the accused, and everybody else. We have two witnesses to hear today,

3 one witness who is continuing his testimony from yesterday, plus a second

4 witness. I hope that we'll get through everything as scheduled by 1.45.

5 Would Madam Usher please introduce the witness now.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I hope you

8 had a good evening last night. We're going to continue the proceedings

9 this morning, but rest assured that we will get through your testimony in

10 the course of the morning. And without further ado, I'm going to give the

11 floor to the Prosecution, and they had several additional questions to ask

12 you.

13 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jasarevic.

18 A. Good morning, sir.

19 Q. Yesterday when we adjourned, you had just told us about an

20 encounter that you had in the primary school in Mehurici with the person

21 whom had been identified to you as Ramadan. Do you recall the approximate

22 time period when this occurred?

23 A. It was, once again, roughly, sometime in July, maybe a month after

24 their arrival. I can't be certain, but I assume that was when that

25 happened, in 1992. July, perhaps August. Maybe it would -- it might have

Page 11578

1 been August. A lot of time has gone by since then.

2 Q. And just so that we're absolutely clear, sir, this was the only

3 time that you ever spoke to or had any encounters with any of these Arabs

4 from the period 1992 and 1993?

5 A. Yes, that was the only time. I didn't have occasion to contact --

6 have any contacts with those people. The position I occupied, I didn't

7 have an opportunity. I didn't want to. And as I said, I felt

8 uncomfortable in their presence, so I didn't have any more contacts with

9 them.

10 Q. Let me now just ask you a couple of questions, sir, about whether

11 or not during the period, again, the second half of 1992 and 1993: How

12 frequently would you see these people in the area of Mehurici?

13 A. As I would go there every day to the regional staff in Mehurici, I

14 would see them very frequently. But when I went to the school building, I

15 would do the job I'd come to do and go back to my village. So I would

16 just see them going in and out of the school building and the school

17 courtyard. I knew nothing else about their movements or anything like

18 that.

19 Q. And again, sir, when you say you went every day to the regional

20 staff, how -- and you would see them very frequently, what time period are

21 you referring to?

22 A. Well, as I said, it was the period of time -- there seems to be

23 something with the interpretation. Let me repeat. Well, it was the time

24 when they first appeared in our area until the brigade had been formed.

25 So it was 1992, sometime from the time of their arrival, up until August,

Page 11579

1 thereabouts, that's what I would see them around in front of the school,

2 going in and out of the school building. I didn't see them anywhere else

3 at that period of time.

4 Q. Sir, do you recall approximately when these Arabs left the school

5 in Mehurici and went to the area known as Poljanice?

6 A. We talked about that yesterday, and I said that they left the

7 premises during the period when the units of the 1st Battalion came to be

8 in the school. They were soldiers who were from the neighbouring

9 municipality of Kotor Varos and Siprige. And as they weren't able to

10 find -- they weren't able to be there together, I don't think they liked

11 the conduct of the units. They sang and so on. So I think they left of

12 their own free will and went to the camp.

13 Q. Sir, my question is do you recall approximately time period that

14 was, what month and year?

15 A. I can't remember exactly. It has been 11 years since then. I'd

16 be very willing to tell you, but unfortunately I just can't remember.

17 Q. Sir, let me turn to the final few questions that I have. You told

18 us that you were a member of the 306th Mountain Brigade until 19 November

19 1993 when you received a work obligation. Is that correct?

20 A. That's right, yes.

21 Q. And this work obligation required you to return to the career of

22 teaching?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Based on your experience in the 306th Mountain Brigade, towards

25 the latter part of 1993, was it common for soldiers in your brigade to be

Page 11580

1 demobilised by way of receiving work obligations?

2 A. It wasn't customary for people from the army to be demobilised and

3 be assigned work obligations. We had work obligations. I know about our

4 department. I don't know about the other departments. We who worked in

5 the education sector, in schools, and so on. But as I say, a lot of time

6 had gone by when our children didn't go to school, so the civilian

7 authorities sat and had a meeting somewhere, and I suppose decided that it

8 would have a serious impact on future generations if from May 1992 right

9 up to 1993, which means more than a year, a year and a half, children

10 didn't go to school, that this would have far-reaching consequences,

11 adverse consequences on the young people in the country as a whole. So I

12 suppose that since the basic elementary conditions did exist, they tried

13 to organise tuition wherever possible. So as I say, I don't know about the

14 other branches, but in our area, in my department, people who they thought

15 would do the job best and were ready to work under such conditions were

16 given a work obligation to go ahead and teach. And that's how I came to

17 teach in the village of Gluha Bukavica, nine kilometres to the north of

18 Mehurici, and I taught children from the first year of school to the

19 fourth year of primary school.

20 Q. And sir, my final question, if you know, you say people who they

21 thought would do the job best and were ready to work under such

22 conditions, do you know approximately how many people fit into that

23 category?

24 A. I really don't know how many people would be in that category, but

25 I do know that on the day I started to work that I was demobilised and

Page 11581












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Page 11582

1 another colleague teacher of mine. Later on, some others came in, but I

2 can't give you their names and when they actually came, but there were two

3 people, myself and the chemistry teacher, we were mobilised on that same

4 day and took up our jobs the very next day.

5 Q. Just a clarification question, sir. On page 6, line 1, it says

6 "we were mobilised on that same day."

7 THE INTERPRETER: Demobilised. Interpreter's note.

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

9 Mr. President, at this time, the Prosecution has no further

10 questions for this witness.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence.

12 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jasarevic, I just have a few

14 follow-up questions for you.

15 A. Good morning, Madam Edina.

16 Q. You said that your regional staff was in the school in Mehurici.

17 So tell me who mobilised the facilities and premises used later by the

18 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. I can't know that exactly, who mobilised or requisitioned those

20 premises. I know we entered them, but in the municipality, there was a

21 municipal secretariat for national defence. That was a civilian authority

22 which took care about all the military records, so I assume it could have

23 been the municipal secretariat for national defence attached to the

24 municipality itself.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, asked by my learned colleague, you spoke about

Page 11583

1 how far people had been equipped or trained to perform their duties and

2 how many people had had military training beforehand. Tell me, now,

3 please, in view of the many problems that there were with people who

4 lacked training and the cadres that you spoke about, in the 306th Brigade,

5 for instance, were men trained? And if so, who conducted the training?

6 A. As far as I remember, in the 306th Brigade, there was some

7 training which was conducted by the officers of the 306th Brigade. I know

8 that there was a training plan compiled by one of the organs of the

9 brigade. I don't remember exactly. But I do know that the soldiers who,

10 in their free time, when they came back from their positions, would

11 undergo training, usually in the places they lived in. I can tell you

12 about my own village where I lived. Training was conducted at one of the

13 areas around there, so there were soldiers who had just joined the army,

14 joined up, and didn't know how to handle weapons. So the basic issue was

15 to teach them how to handle weapons.

16 And in addition to that, they took care to see that the soldiers

17 had elementary training in the laws and customs of war, for example, and

18 respect for those provisions. So I do think there was this kind of

19 training, and there were plans that were compiled and devised. And yes,

20 the brigade did organise training sessions in the manner in which I have

21 described; that is to say, the training took place in the places they

22 lived and worked.

23 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, were there any foreigners, especially these

24 foreigners from Poljanice, for example, did they conduct training of the

25 members of the 306th Brigade at any point in time to the best of your

Page 11584

1 knowledge?

2 A. I never saw them do any training. And to the best of my

3 knowledge, they never trained people in the brigade. And I can say

4 specifically for my own village that this was done by a lower ranking

5 officer who would take the men up on the slopes, and then that's where it

6 would take place. So every village or every unit or every officer or NCO

7 would be in charge of training men in his unit as provided for by the

8 programme. But there was absolutely no question of this being done by any

9 foreigners.

10 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, did you also receive orders from the superior

11 command of the 3rd Corps about the necessity for conducting training in

12 all sectors of work in the brigade?

13 A. Well, it was like this: Once the 306th Brigade had been set up,

14 the principle of the chain of command was set up in the army so that the

15 units lower down were subordinated to the superior command, superior

16 units. And everything we talked about yesterday, we did exclusively under

17 the command of the 3rd Corps. Therefore, everything that was done was

18 done on the basis of documents, at least that's what I was informed about.

19 And I think I saw some of them anyway. But as I say, on the basis of

20 documents coming down and orders issued by the command of the 3rd Corps.

21 So when it came to training and all other aspects of military life and

22 sectors, we wanted the job to be done well, to see that the war ended in

23 the best possible way, without people being under threat too much.

24 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, yesterday asked by my learned colleague, you spoke

25 about the fact that you informed people and gave them the rudimentary

Page 11585

1 knowledge they needed about humanitarian law and war law as you, as an

2 intellectual understood it, and as far as you were able to teach them

3 based on your general education. Now what I'm interested in is this:

4 What was the relationship between the brigade and the army itself? That

5 is to say the 3rd Corps, what was that are attitude generally speaking

6 towards crimes, the perpetration of crimes? Were there any orders

7 connected to that and what measures were taken, what steps were taken?

8 A. From the positions of my duties, and I've already explained what

9 my duties were, as men and individuals, we were absolutely astounded by

10 the war and what was happening. So certain orders were issued and

11 instructions given as to what should be done to people and whether they

12 were members of our brigade or not, something along those lines. I can't

13 remember exactly. But it was the position taken by the brigade and our

14 command, categoric position, that these crimes had to be punished, the

15 perpetrators had to be brought to justice, and that the people that

16 suffered at their hands must be helped as much as possible.

17 Q. Now, with respect to other crimes such as theft, looting, and

18 things of that kind, do you happen to know yourself what the orders were

19 to prevent anything like that? And do you know yourself how the organs of

20 the 306th Brigade in charge of affairs of that kind, what their conduct

21 was, how they behaved and what they did, if anything like that should

22 happen?

23 A. I spoke yesterday about the morale of our units, moral guidance

24 they were given, and I said that there was no idea of revenge in the minds

25 of the men of the 306th Brigade. I can't say for everyone, but our men

Page 11586

1 were not prone to theft, looting, and retaliation of that kind. Now, if

2 an incident like that did happen, if an individual soldier did go round

3 thieving and looting, he would be sanctioned, he would be punished. Now,

4 my department has no records of that. That wasn't our job. But I think

5 that all the people against whom proceedings were taken, I think there was

6 a security service and that records of that kind exist in the security

7 service of the 306th Brigade.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Jasarevic. I have no further questions for you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn to the other Defence

10 team. Any questions?

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, no questions from

12 us. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Judges have a

14 few questions to ask you.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, Witness. I want to come back to

17 something you said yesterday. You said a number of things on destruction

18 of property, of villages, and a comparison was made between villages that

19 were attacked by the Croat forces and villages attacked by the ABiH Army

20 forces. And you said in particular, I've seen Bandol and Velika Bukovica,

21 two villages that were taken by the Croat forces, I've seen destructions

22 there, and I can say -- I can tell you that I've never seen such

23 destructions in villages taken by the -- my own army. Is this a fair

24 summary of what you said yesterday?

25 A. Mr. President, I said that the job I did up until the 19th of

Page 11587












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Page 11588

1 November 1993 was in the social services, and I moved around in the region

2 of Guca Gora. So I say during that period of time, that is really how it

3 was. The houses hadn't been destroyed, so that was a period of about two

4 months. During that period of time, during those two months, the houses

5 were left intact. They were standing and they hadn't been destroyed or

6 destructed. So it is my general position that during those two months the

7 situation was really the way I described it.

8 Later on, I left to take up my own work assignments, and I don't

9 know what happened after that.

10 JUDGE SWART: I have no reason to doubt your statement, Witness,

11 in that respect, and that's not the point of my question. You mentioned

12 yesterday, indeed, Guca Gora. This morning you said "I visited the Guca

13 Gora area." What other villages did you visit in that time?

14 A. I can't remember, but I think that the terrain I moved around and

15 the direction of my movements from the brigade to the centre for giving

16 assistance to those families, I had to pass through Guca Gora every day.

17 As to the other villages, I didn't tour them. I didn't have a chance to

18 go round those villages, nor did I have time to see them.

19 JUDGE SWART: So, for instance, Maline, which is very close to

20 Guca Gora, you did not visit Maline, I understand now?

21 A. No, I didn't go to Maline. That wasn't the road to Krpeljici, the

22 route was from the warehouse and the place where our storage space was

23 located across to Guca Gora. So there was no need for me to go to Maline.

24 I went via Guca Gora.

25 JUDGE SWART: And I take it that you did not visit villages on the

Page 11589

1 other side of the River Bila, like, for instance, Cukle or Susanj, that

2 kind of places?

3 A. No, I didn't go to those villages, and I stated the reason. And I

4 said yesterday, I gave you the exact date when by an order I was

5 transferred to the area facing the Serb and Montenegrin aggressor. I

6 suppose somebody else did that. And if he comes into court here, we'll be

7 able to provide you with that information. I wasn't in a physical

8 position to go there because I did other work. And when I returned in

9 August at the social services, there was so much work I was inundated. So

10 it wasn't up to me, my job, to visit those villages. I assume someone

11 else did, but I don't know exactly who. I did not, as I say. I had other

12 work assignments.

13 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much. This has now become much

14 clearer to me.

15 I have a second question on the elementary school in Mehurici.

16 You told us that a number of Croats came from Maline and were housed in

17 the school for several weeks, and you were very busy providing them,

18 organising support and help to them, for instance in the manner of food.

19 If I understood you well, you came in Mehurici the day after this group of

20 Croats came in the school. Is that right? Or could you indicate a

21 different day?

22 A. I was in Mehurici at the time when that group of Croats arrived

23 and when they were assigned the premises. I received an order from my

24 superior the next day, so I think I was in Mehurici then, and I think it

25 says so in my statement. But I wasn't given a concrete work assignment.

Page 11590

1 That came the following day. And I received the assignment that I stated

2 during my testimony yesterday.

3 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. Did you go to the school on the day the

4 Croats arrived already? Did you see the school on that day?

5 A. Yes, I saw the school that day.

6 JUDGE SWART: And were the Croats already in the school at that

7 moment? Do you remember that?

8 A. Well, when I learned of this, they had already been put up in the

9 sports hall. They were in the school.

10 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I'm asking you this because we have

11 heard a witness in January, on the 20th of January of this year, and this

12 witness told us that when he came into the school, he was one of the

13 Croats, he saw a flag hanging out of the school, a black flag from the

14 third floor. Do you remember ever having seen such a flag, a black flag

15 hanging out of some window in the school?

16 A. We spoke a moment ago about the fact that the units who were made

17 up of the Arabs, that that unit had left and gone to the camp in Poljanice

18 with all their characteristic features and things that they had brought

19 with them. But as far as I remember, there was never a black flag. No

20 black flag at all in the school. All there was was one which belonged to

21 the 306th Brigade which was there, so there was no black flag. I did not

22 see a black flag at any time.

23 JUDGE SWART: Maybe I can show you a picture of the school

24 revealing -- maybe I could show you a picture taken of the school. It's

25 Prosecutor's Exhibit 28.1 on which the witness has indicated where the

Page 11591

1 flag was.

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, we will go into

4 private session now.

5 [Private session]

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Page 11592

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, my question concerns

17 the Red Cross. Yesterday in response to a question, you said -- or you

18 mentioned the Red Cross, and you said - and I will summarise you - you

19 said that when the people arrived, you and your superior were obliged to

20 inform the Red Cross of the fact. And this is what you allegedly did, and

21 you also added that the Red Cross arrived eight or ten days later. So

22 according to my calculations, you were there on the 8th of June. If add

23 on ten days that brings us to the 18th of June. So the Red Cross arrived

24 on the 18th or the 19th of June.

25 You said that Red Cross representatives had no comments or

Page 11593












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Page 11594

1 objections to make. Were you present when the Red Cross representatives

2 arrived on the 18th or 19th of June?

3 A. Yes, I was there when the Red Cross arrived.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you were there.

5 When they arrived, where did Red Cross representatives see the people?

6 A. When they arrived at the site, they saw the people, the people who

7 were kept in the sports hall. That's where they had been kept throughout

8 the entire period.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a witness who appears to

10 have given us a different version, a contradictory version. He said that

11 they had been taken to another building and that that is where they met

12 Red Cross representatives. What could you say about this slight

13 contradiction? To refresh your memory, I will quote what this person said

14 very rapidly. A certain number of soldiers from the civilian police came

15 with a list containing the names of various persons. All those on the

16 list had to leave the sports hall and were taken to another building close

17 by. There were other Croats there, including women.

18 I'd like to be clear about this. The Red Cross representatives,

19 did they see people in the school or outside the school? You're telling

20 us that you were present. So please, clarify this for us. And I'd like

21 to remind you that you have taken the solemn declaration and said that you

22 will speak the truth.

23 A. They were in the school and spoke to the people in the hall, in

24 the sports hall. I don't know whether they spoke to these other prisoners

25 in another building. I really don't know about that.

Page 11595

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 Does the Prosecution have any questions that arise from the

3 Judges' questions?

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no

5 further questions.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

8 no further questions.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team?

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

11 have no questions.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this concludes your

13 testimony. Thank you for having come to testify at the request of the

14 Defence. You've testified about what occurred in 1992 and 1993, and we

15 thank you for that. We wish you a good trip home. And I will now ask the

16 usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Goodbye.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm addressing the Defence now.

20 We have one last witness for this week.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Hockic is waiting to be

22 called into the courtroom.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will wait for him

24 to come in.

25 How much time do you think you will need for his

Page 11596

1 examination-in-chief?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I probably won't

3 need more than half an hour, but I have a series of documents that I have

4 prepared for the witness. So we will probably need just as much time to

5 examine the documents.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thank you for this good news.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

9 like to make sure that you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm

10 saying. If so, please say yes.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you very well.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

13 witness for the Defence, for Defence counsel for one of the accused.

14 Before you take the solemn declaration, could you please tell me your

15 first and last names, your date of birth and place of birth.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Mustafa Hockic. I was

17 born on the 9th of May in 1947 in Travnik.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. What do you do at

19 the moment? Do you hold a professional position?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a professor. I am the deputy

21 director of the cantonal administration for civilian protection in Travnik

22 at the time -- at the moment.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1992 and 1993,

24 what professional post did you hold and where?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, I was employed in the

Page 11597

1 municipal secretariat for national defence, and I worked as the assistant

2 chief of the secretariat for national defence. And I was involved in

3 civilian protection affairs and general affairs. I also acted as chief of

4 the municipal civilian protection staff in Travnik.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you already

6 testified about the events that took place in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992

7 and 1993 before a national or international court? Or is this the first

8 time?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is my first time.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could you read out

11 the solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the

17 Defence, I'd like to provide you with some information about the procedure

18 we will be following here. As you have said, this is the first time that

19 you will be testifying. And since this will be your first time, I must

20 provide you with some information. You will first have to answer

21 questions put to you by Defence counsel for one of the accused. Defence

22 counsel are sitting to your left. Their examination-in-chief should take

23 about half an hour, but it might take a little longer since certain

24 documents might be presented to you.

25 After this stage, you will have to answer questions put to you by

Page 11598

1 the Prosecution, who are to your right. They will conduct what we call

2 the cross-examination. You will notice that the questions they put to you

3 won't be of the same kind since the questions that Defence counsel puts to

4 you must not be leading, whereas according to the common-law system

5 leading questions are permitted in the course of cross-examination.

6 After the Prosecution has examined you, Defence may re-examine

7 you. The Judges sitting before you may also ask you questions at any

8 point in time. Usually, there are three of us, but one is absent for

9 professional reasons. Usually we ask questions after both parties have

10 finished with their questions. If a question appears complicated to you,

11 ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it. Perhaps you're not aware

12 of this, but we don't have any written documents. We don't know exactly

13 what you will be testifying about. And this is why what you say is so

14 important. As a teacher, you are well aware of the importance of words.

15 Take your time to understand the questions put to you, and try to answer

16 the questions precisely. If you come across any difficulties, inform us

17 of the fact. I'd also like to point out that as you have taken the solemn

18 declaration and said that you will speak the truth, you should not give

19 false testimony. False testimony is an offence which is punishable. You

20 could be given a prison sentence.

21 I'd also like to point out, although this shouldn't apply to you,

22 I would also like to point out that if a witness's answer might provide

23 information that could be used against the witness, according to our

24 Rules, the witness can refuse to answer such a question. But the Trial

25 Chamber can oblige -- can compel the witness to answer the question. If a

Page 11599












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Page 11600

1 witness answers such a question, you should be aware of the fact that the

2 witness is granted a form of immunity. So you can feel free to say

3 whatever you have to say, especially since you have said that you will

4 speak the truth. Generally speaking, this is how we will be proceeding

5 today.

6 Without wasting any more time, since we will be having our

7 technical break at 10.30, I'll now give the floor to Defence counsel.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Hockic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. I would like to ask you to pause briefly after I have put my

15 question to you. This will enable the interpreters to interpret my

16 question and your answer. This will enable everyone to follow us, which

17 is essential. Have you understood me?

18 A. Yes, I have.

19 Q. You mentioned the work you did in 1992 and 1993. Could you please

20 tell me whether before the war you performed any duties that had to do

21 with the civilian protection?

22 A. Yes. Before the war, I worked in the Sipad work organisation.

23 And just before the war, I moved to the secretariat for national defence,

24 and I assumed the duties I mentioned. I forgot to mention, though, that

25 in 1993 I was no longer the chief of the municipal staff, but I was a

Page 11601

1 member -- I was the assistant chief for fire prevention.

2 Q. You said you were a teacher by profession. Tell me where and when

3 you completed the schools that qualified you to work as a teacher.

4 A. I finished the university -- I graduated from the University of

5 Political Science in Sarajevo. Should I say anything else?

6 Q. That's fine. Tell me, what duties do you perform now?

7 A. Now I work as the deputy director in the cantonal administration

8 for civilian protection in Travnik.

9 Q. If I could summarise, then, one could say that for the last ten

10 years, you have been involved in working in the civilian protection.

11 A. Well, I could say that I have worked in the field of civilian

12 protection for over 30 years now.

13 Q. The law on defence is already in evidence before this Chamber.

14 Mr. Hockic, please tell me: The civilian protection forms which part of

15 defence?

16 A. The civilian protection comes under the laws that you mentioned.

17 It comes under civilian defence.

18 Q. Who is the superior organ?

19 A. The Ministry of Defence is the superior organ for the civilian

20 protection.

21 Q. To what extent is the civilian protection linked to the municipal

22 assembly? Or rather, in wartime conditions, to organs that replace the

23 municipal assembly? Do these organs have any responsibility with regard

24 to the civilian protection?

25 A. In this case, it's the executive committee, or rather, the

Page 11602

1 municipal government. Then there's the war presidency. And we were under

2 these bodies as far as organisational matters are concerned. And the

3 operation of the civilian protection in the Municipality of Travnik.

4 Q. Mr. Hockic, could you briefly tell us what the main tasks of the

5 civilian protection are.

6 A. Its main tasks involve protecting people and material and cultural

7 goods in the case of natural disasters, in the case of accidents, or in

8 the case of war and imminent threat of war.

9 Q. When carrying out these duties of yours, tell me whether the

10 civilian protection takes any measures; and if so, could you mention some

11 of the measures it takes to protect and save people and property.

12 A. As a system, the civilian protection is involved firstly in

13 self-protection, and then measures taken for civilian protection, and then

14 it's involved in operating through civilian protection staffs, civilian

15 protection units for general and specialised purposes. And it has its

16 officials in that service for protection.

17 Q. Mr. Hockic, in 1992 and 1993, when you were a member of the

18 civilian protection staff, did the civilian protection in Travnik

19 Municipality become involved in all the fields you have just mentioned?

20 A. Yes. The municipality -- or rather, the civilian protection was

21 involved in all the fields it should be involved in according to the law

22 on defence.

23 Q. In the course of the war, did you at any time become the organ --

24 the superior organ of some army units? Or the superior organ of the army

25 as a whole?

Page 11603

1 A. No. We weren't the superior organ. They had their own command.

2 We cooperated, if I could put it that way, with the army. And we were

3 obliged to do so according to instructions issued in 1993 by the Ministry

4 of Defence.

5 Q. Mr. Hockic, you have just answered my next question, in fact. Was

6 the army ever the superior of the staffs, units, and organs of civilian

7 protection?

8 A. No, we were subordinated to the war presidency and the government,

9 or rather the executive committee of the Municipality of Travnik.

10 Q. Since you were under the government and the war presidency of

11 Travnik Municipality, did the government and the war presidency have the

12 authority to determine what tasks you would have and to assign tasks to

13 civilian protection?

14 A. Yes. They had such a authority on the basis of the law on defence

15 that was in force.

16 Q. Mr. Hockic, can you remember how many members there were in the

17 civilian protection staff in Travnik Municipality in 1993 and how did they

18 operate? Through which units and organs?

19 A. The municipal staff of the civilian protection had 14 members,

20 including the commander and the chief of the staff. And there was the

21 professional service that had been ten members, too. And we were involved

22 in all these tasks, or rather, the professional service was involved in

23 technical issues, technical tasks for the needs of the staff. And we

24 operated through 12 civilian protection staffs in local communes.

25 Q. In addition to the headquarters, the staffs in local communes, did

Page 11604

1 the civilian protection staff have trained men who acted in the field or

2 were these the direct tasks of the staff itself?

3 A. In addition to the staffs of the civilian protection in the local

4 communes, we had about 130 civilian protection officials or

5 representatives. They also operated in accordance with our decisions,

6 orders, and instructions. And they worked in the field.

7 Q. Given the complexity of the task that you mentioned a while ago,

8 was it important for the civilian protection staff to have professional

9 officials and why was this important?

10 A. Well, the civilian defence staff was a professional and operative

11 or operational organ, meaning that it dealt with professional matters and

12 professional people were employed there. If it was the veterinary service

13 and protection, you would have a vet there. If it meant first aid, you

14 would have a doctor there. If it was fire prevention, you would have a

15 fire prevention engineer employed in that sector, and so on and so forth.

16 Q. Mr. Hockic, before the war and also during the war, in the

17 civilian protection service, did you have a system of training at all?

18 And if so, tell us please what kind of training it was.

19 A. In the municipal civilian defence or civilian protection staff, we

20 devoted special attention to training and education. We did this in the

21 local communes, the civilian protection staff in local communes, in

22 companies and enterprises. And the municipal civilian protection area so

23 that at the very beginning of the war, that is to say in 1991, the entire

24 staff spent time undergoing training for ten days in the federal centre

25 for civilian protection which was located in Zemun.

Page 11605












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Page 11606

1 Q. Thank you. In view of the facts that have been repeated in this

2 courtroom a number of times about the multiethnic composition of the work

3 of your employees, what was the composition of the civilian protection

4 people in 1992 and 1993, those who worked in that department?

5 A. As you just said, we devoted considerable attention to the ethnic

6 structure of distributing people to the organs of civilian protection. So

7 in the municipal civilian protection staff in Travnik, for instance, in

8 1991 and 1992, there were six Bosniaks employed; six Croats; and two

9 Serbs. And that fully reflected the ethnic structure of the population of

10 the town of Travnik.

11 Q. Before I show you a series of documents, and I'd like to have your

12 comments on those documents, tell me, please, what problems did you

13 encounter, did the civilian protection staff encounter at the beginning of

14 the war, and could you have foreseen the events and the situation that you

15 would be confronted with in due course?

16 A. The municipal staff of Travnik civilian protection, although it

17 was prepared for things like elemental disasters, natural disasters, or

18 technologically caused accidents, it also prepared for the case of war and

19 imminent war. We prepared ourselves. And as the neighbouring state was

20 in the throes of war already, that is to say, Croatia was already engulfed

21 in war, we started preparing should war break out in Bosnia-Herzegovina on

22 the basis of plans, and the plans existed.

23 Let me give you an example: We had plans providing for two and a

24 half thousand -- no, five thousand people coming in as refugees. We had

25 that hypothetical. And after the end of the war, 205 [as interpreted]

Page 11607

1 refugees passed through Travnik in actual fact. So you can see the

2 planned figure was 5.000, and look at what actually happened. And we were

3 absolutely never able to envisage such large figures.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hockic. Since you said that you had staffs in the

5 local communities that you trained and that you had your foremen on the

6 ground, did you train people to perform their assignments in the local

7 communes, the staff in the local communes, and did you try and find the

8 best people for this post of formal manager in the field?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I hear your answer, I

10 would like to correct the transcript. He said they took over 205.000

11 refugees, whereas on line 2, it says 205. The figure was 205.000. That

12 must be corrected. So the planning catered to 5.000, and they were faced

13 with a figure of 205.000. So it's line 2.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. 205.000. The plan provided

15 for a mere 5.000.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Before the correction made, before the correction was made to the

18 transcript, because the mistake a big one, I asked you whether you made

19 efforts to train the best -- to train the staffs as best as possible in

20 the local communes and the commissioners working on the ground so that

21 they could perform their duties properly.

22 A. Well, our training of the municipal staff of Travnik went hand in

23 hand with our efforts to train the staffs in the local communes and in

24 companies, in firms. And this training, the training I've just mentioned,

25 was for the employees and staff members, and they went to Sarajevo for

Page 11608

1 their training and to Travnik with us.

2 Q. All the measures that you took to equip and train your employees

3 and the staffs and the commissioners or foremen, did you -- could you,

4 rather, entrust them with assignments and have full confidence in them and

5 confidence in the reports that these people sent back to the staff? Were

6 they trustworthy?

7 A. I should like to stress that we waged the right kind of cadres

8 policy in the civilian protection area by selecting professionals, highly

9 moral individuals, hard-working individuals, which meant that these were

10 the right people, and that's how the secretary of defence liked us to

11 select people and deploy cadres for the armed forces, for the police

12 force, and everybody working and going about their ordinary civilian

13 duties and the supply to civilian protection as well. So we trained them,

14 and we believed in these people because they were people trained for

15 situations of that kind. And they were empowered by the law to perform

16 assignments of that kind. So we were one of the very rare staffs who, if

17 I might say so myself, fulfilled the tasks we were given during the war

18 very well.

19 Q. I just have a few more general questions, and then I'm going to

20 show you a series of documents. Tell me this, please: Did the government

21 or war presidency during the war, that is to say in 1993, issue any

22 special assignments to you concerning refugees, the accommodation of those

23 people, assessing the damages, recording property and so on and so forth?

24 So did you receive specific instructions and assignments and orders

25 closely connected to the suffering that war brought about?

Page 11609

1 A. Yes. Both the government and the war president of the Travnik

2 Municipality did issue assignments to us of that kind.

3 Q. In view of the war situation you were faced with, did the civilian

4 protection staff of the Travnik Municipality, was it faced with the

5 problem and did it face the problem, the problems that arose, and was it

6 very difficult to fulfil your assignments and go about your work given the

7 war circumstances?

8 A. Yes. It was very difficult to implement those assignments, and I

9 quoted you one example about the 5.000 people that were provided for on

10 the basis of our plan, whereas in actual fact 205.000 people came in, and

11 we had to deal with that situation.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd now like to ask the usher's

14 help to provide the witness with a set of documents. We have prepared the

15 documents for members of the Trial Chamber and for our colleagues of the

16 Prosecution and the rest of the Defence team and the accused.

17 Q. Mr. Hockic, we have 47 documents here of different types. And I'd

18 like to inform you straight away that I'm going to ask you first of all to

19 tell me whether you recognise the document as issued by the civilian

20 protection or relating to civilian protection, whether you recognise a

21 particular document, and then I'm going to ask you some -- about some of

22 your opinions about the events and the facts stated in the documents.

23 But first things first: Take a look at a document numbered

24 Document 30, and the document reference number is 1284. So that's the one

25 we're going to look at first. Have you found it?

Page 11610

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the document is entitled "an analysis of the work of the

3 municipal staff of civilian protection of Travnik," dated the 4th of April

4 1992 to the 7th of the 7th 1993. The date is July 1993. And my first

5 question for you, Mr. Hockic, is whether you recognise this document as

6 being a document of the municipal civilian protection staff?

7 A. Yes. This is an analysis of the Travnik Municipality civilian

8 protection staff.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, if we look at this analysis, which is set out on

10 a number of pages, we see that there are subtitles. And under number 1 we

11 have the area of measures of shelter, of people, of material goods, and

12 second first aid measures, and then we have fire protection measures.

13 Number 4 is the clean up of the terrain or asanacija. Then we have

14 measures to deactivate and destroy the NUS or UXO. Number 6 is measures

15 to protect animals and food of animal origin. Then we have plant and

16 vegetable protection. Number 8 is blackout and cover-up measures. Number

17 9 is evacuation and taking care of the endangered population and

18 population that has suffered. Next we have the organisation of

19 humanitarian and other activities on the territory of the municipality.

20 After that, we come to cooperation with the UNHCR and other international

21 humanitarian organisations. Reporting is the next chapter. Sessions of

22 the municipal staff of the Travnik CZ comes next.

23 Now, Mr. Hockic, the titles I've just read out to you, are they

24 basically areas of engagement of the civilian protection staff, or do they

25 represent something else or are they something else, something that you

Page 11611












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Page 11612

1 could describe to us within the frameworks of that analysis?

2 A. Well, since you're asking me, and you asked me a moment ago how

3 the system of civilian protection functioned, I said that it functioned

4 through self-protection, the measures of civilian protection implemented

5 by the units, special-purpose units, the commissioners, and the service

6 for protecting and saving the population.

7 I'd like to go back to the measures of civilian protection.

8 Everything that you have just set out and that is set out in this document

9 constitutes measures of civilian protection. The municipal staff

10 implemented these measures in the Travnik Municipality. It did so before

11 the war, prior to the war, during the war. And this is, if I can say --

12 these are our basic tasks, if I can put it that way, in a nutshell.

13 Q. I'd like to ask you to take a look at the second heading for first

14 aid, medical assistance. You said a moment ago how difficult it was to

15 plan in advance, and especially to plan for what life would bring with it.

16 Can you tell us, please, in addition to what it sets out here, did the

17 civilian protection staff at one point in time have to face an enormous

18 medical problem and how did it tackle that vast medical problem?

19 A. One of the 16 measures was to provide first aid and medical

20 assistance to people in need in the Travnik Municipality. Preparations in

21 this area were based on assessments of the people under threat, or people

22 needing first aid and medical assistance so that we cooperated with the

23 medical centre of the Travnik Municipality, and we established 12

24 surgeries in the local communes throughout the Travnik Municipality.

25 We did this because we felt that the citizens should not have to

Page 11613

1 come into the Travnik area, the town itself, because it was being shelled.

2 We felt that it would be a better idea to save the population from being

3 exposed to war and the shelling and so on and stick to the local communes.

4 Q. Now, with respect to infectious diseases, Mr. Hockic, did you have

5 to face a problem there? And how did you manage? What efforts did you

6 take to prevent infectious diseases from breaking out and dealing with

7 them?

8 A. This was a very important area. If you look at just that one year

9 comprised by the analysis, there were over 160.000 refugees passing

10 through Travnik already. And about 30.000 were in Travnik itself, Travnik

11 proper. This was a vast number of people, and we had to see to it that

12 there were the necessary hygienic and sanitary conditions, especially in

13 collection centres. And I can tell you that this was a major problem that

14 we had to face, but we solved it successfully. Let me quote you an

15 example from practice.

16 In 1992, for instance, in the local commune of Kalibunar, in the

17 Jankovici settlement, a typhoid epidemic broke out. With the help of the

18 police, first of all, and I think also the army, we cordoned off the area.

19 The municipal staff decided to cordon off the area, preventing anybody

20 from entering and exiting. And the first aid team -- or the person in

21 charge was Dr. Babic Zdravko of the first aid team in the municipality,

22 and he was given the basic task of dealing with the situation in the

23 shortest possible time. At his disposal, he had doctors from the medical

24 centre in Travnik and the staff of the Travnik hospital as well as the

25 medical staff, the nurses and so on.

Page 11614

1 Q. Mr. Hockic, I'm sure that what you're telling us now is very

2 important, but in view of the time we have at our disposal, could you just

3 tell us, please, in addition to these extraordinary efforts made by you,

4 did you manage to suppress and contain the disease and prevent it, and

5 what would have happened had you not taken the steps you took to contain

6 it?

7 A. Yes, we did succeed in containing the disease in a record space of

8 time. The president of the commission, Zlatko Pugacic, came from

9 Sarajevo. He was in charge of epidemiology in Sarajevo, and he concluded

10 that we had done the right thing. Had we not done all this, it would have

11 been a catastrophe for Travnik and Zenica, and that was the observation

12 made by Dr. Zlatko Pugacic, who was the principal epidemiologist.

13 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to number 1, please. Tell me,

14 Mr. Hockic, do you recognise the document? Let's hear that first.

15 A. Yes, I do. I recognise this document. It is a decision made by

16 the war presidency of the Travnik Municipality.

17 Q. Does this document indicate the manner of organisation? And you

18 have answered my questions along those lines.

19 A. Yes. It is a document of the municipal staff. We had 34 local

20 communes. We had 34 civilian protection staffs. But we decided to

21 reorganise them and have 12 staff.

22 Q. Take a look at document 2, now, please. That's the next one.

23 This is a government document. Do you recognise it? And if so, was this

24 the manner in which the government issued assignments and issued

25 instructions to the municipal staff of the civilian protection of the

Page 11615

1 Travnik Municipality?

2 A. Yes, it is a government decision and order issued to the civilian

3 protection staff of Travnik, and they worked with us on the basis of an

4 order of this kind. This is one such order.

5 Q. If we look at paragraph 1 of the order, does that constitute an

6 assignment? And in response to my previous question, would this be in

7 line with what you said, that the care and attention of refugees and

8 putting them up was one of the tasks that your staff had to perform?

9 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. That was one of our tasks pursuant to

10 this order, to organise accommodation and everything else for the

11 refugees.

12 Q. The document I've just shown you, I should like to say for the

13 transcript is -- has the number 1146. The previous document, that is to

14 say, the decision by the war presidency of the Travnik Municipality, is

15 1097. The analysis that we discussed to begin with, the number of that

16 document was Document Number -- Defence Document 1284.

17 Mr. Hockic, I do this for the record. I repeat those numbers for

18 the record.

19 Let's take a look at the next document, now, Document Number 3.

20 It's not a very good copy, but I hope you'll be able to answer my

21 question; namely, do you recognise the document as being a document of the

22 municipal staff of the civilian protection, the municipal civilian

23 protection staff, in fact?

24 A. Yes. This is a municipal civilian protection staff document of

25 the Travnik Municipality.

Page 11616

1 Q. In the preamble to the document, it says that the order was issued

2 by the commander of the operative group of Bosnian Krajina. Can you tell

3 me with respect to the requests made by the operative group, who ordered

4 you to set aside resources -- to take resources for the needs of the army,

5 requirements of the army?

6 A. Well, these were rare situations when we cooperated with the army.

7 We did so on very rare occasions. But as I say, what this applies to was

8 basic equipment and tools that we were supposed to collect for us to be

9 able to perform our basic functions that we were duty-bound to do pursuant

10 to the law. For example, hay forks, hoes and rakes, equipment like that,

11 equipment for digging trenches, picks and spades and axes and so on. We

12 issued receipts and slips, but we used this equipment and these tools to

13 be able to carry out the assignment set us by law.

14 Q. If I understood you correctly, you kept records and receipts of

15 the goods issued, and the people could get the equipment back from you

16 afterwards? Is that what you wanted to say?

17 A. Yes, that's precisely it.

18 Q. Take a look at document -- well, the previous document's number

19 was 1196. Now, let's take a look at document 4, and its number is 1197,

20 Defence 1197.

21 Tell me, please, do you recognise this document as being one of

22 the civilian protection municipal staff documents?

23 A. Yes, it is of the Municipality of Travnik.

24 Q. Mr. Hockic, at the time, was it necessary for the land to be

25 tilled? Why was this necessary and why were orders of this kind issued?

Page 11617

1 A. Well, Travnik received humanitarian aid from international

2 organisations. However, you saw that there were 160.000 people that

3 passed through Travnik in that year, 160.000 refugees, so it was necessary

4 for us to organise ourselves and to form work platoons in accordance with

5 the instructions that made this quite legal. Such platoons were formed to

6 till the land so that we could produce food ourselves and feed our

7 population and the refugees because we believed that at the time there

8 wasn't enough food obtained from international organisations.

9 Q. Thank you. Can we have a look at Document Number 5, Defence

10 Number 1206.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps we will have a break

12 now. It's half past 10.00. And we will resume at about 5 to 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

15 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Ms. Benjamin, I believe

17 there's something you would like to say before the witness comes into the

18 courtroom.

19 MS. BENJAMIN: [Previous interpretation continues] ... of the

20 Trial Chamber, the Prosecution wishes to make a submission.

21 Mr. President, this submission concerns the documents which the

22 Prosecution -- which the Defence intends to tender on behalf of the

23 present witness. Aside from the volume of documents, and I speak

24 particularly to the 12 that I had received translations of earlier on and

25 which -- of which the 12 are basically repetitious, the Prosecution wishes

Page 11618

1 to submit -- or rather questions the relevance of the documents pertaining

2 to the allegations in the indictment against the accused.

3 I do not think, and it is the Prosecution's submission, that this

4 accused does not stand on trial for most of the things that are presented

5 through the documents here today, and it is our submission that in the

6 interests of time, that the documents should not be allowed or should not

7 be admitted at this stage on the grounds of relevance, on the grounds that

8 they are cumulative, and they really do not serve any purpose whatsoever

9 in the advancement of the Defence's case. Thanks.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to the

11 Defence in a minute, but speaking for myself, the Judges haven't discussed

12 this yet. The Defence has only presented a few documents so far which all

13 had to do with civilian protection. A number of witnesses have made

14 reference to the civilian protection, so documents which are directly or

15 indirectly linked to the civilian protection may seem to be relevant and

16 may help to determine the truth.

17 As far as the issue of admissibility is concerned, as a rule, it

18 is only at the end of the examination-in-chief that this matter is

19 discussed. Would Defence counsel like to respond to the objection raised?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, all the documents

21 that we want to show this witness are relevant from the point of view of

22 our Defence for our client. We are showing the difference in the

23 responsibility of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its organs and

24 civilian and other organs. This is something we referred to in our

25 pre-trial brief. You have just mentioned another reason for their

Page 11619

1 relevance. Many witnesses have testified about the tasks of the civilian

2 protection, about the cooperation between the BH Army and the civilian

3 protection. In the course of the Prosecution's case, you yourself

4 expressed the position that it was necessary to know what the competence

5 of the war presidency and the civilian protection and other organs was,

6 and what the competence or responsibility of the army was. This is of

7 exceptional importance for the defence of a commander. If you have a look

8 at the matter, the civilian protection in July 1993 visited all the areas

9 in the Municipality of Travnik and recorded the state of the facilities it

10 found there. The witness confirmed the reliability of their information,

11 and this is linked to counts in the indictment, not just the context that

12 the Defence wants to refer to, the background that the Defence wants to

13 refer to.

14 I'm not going to go through all the documents, but all the

15 documents as a whole refer to the defence situation and the situation that

16 they were involved in, and some of them refer directly to the counts in

17 the indictment that concern destruction and torching. In addition, as far

18 as the admissibility of documents are concerned, if a witness comes --

19 appears before the Trial Chamber and recognises the documents as documents

20 that he himself drafted or his organ drafted, this shows that such

21 documents are admissible.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team?

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Have

24 no other comments to make in addition to the ones made by Ms. Residovic.

25 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

Page 11620

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. After having

2 discussed this, deliberated this, we believe that the Defence can continue

3 to show these documents. And when the Chamber is fully present, we will

4 rule on the admissibility of these documents. We will inform our

5 colleague of the issue, and the entire Chamber will render a decision. We

6 have taken note of your objection, but for now we authorise you, we grant

7 you leave to continue showing these documents to the witness.

8 Madam Usher, could you bring the witness into the courtroom,

9 please.

10 Please continue.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Hockic, before the break, we had a look at Document Number 5,

13 number 1206. Could you please tell me whether this is a document from the

14 municipal civilian protection staff and did it have to do with the tasks

15 related to moving into certain buildings on a temporary basis?

16 A. Yes. This is a document from the municipal civilian protection

17 staff, and it concerns the tasks that we had in accordance with the law

18 and in accordance with the instructions issued by the Travnik government.

19 Q. Have a look at Document Number 6, Defence Number 1207. The

20 document we have before us, is it an order that the war presidency may

21 have issued to the municipal civilian protection staff?

22 A. It's not very legible, but this is a document from the war

23 presidency. And they may have issued such an order in accordance with the

24 law.

25 Q. Mr. Hockic, was the order forwarded to someone to whom the war

Page 11621

1 presidency shouldn't have issued orders?

2 A. Yes. I think the war presidency wasn't responsible for issuing

3 orders to the 306th Brigade. I don't know why the -- this is referred to

4 in the order, but I think they could issue such an order to the municipal

5 civilian protection staff. We were a civilian body, whereas the other

6 case concerns the army. They had their own command.

7 Q. Have a look at Document Number 7, number 128, Defence Number 128.

8 Is this a document from the municipal civilian protection staff, and does

9 it have to do with the task that you had to clear up the terrain?

10 A. Yes, this is a document from the Travnik municipal civilian

11 protection staff, and this is one of the 16 measures we took in wartime in

12 the area.

13 Q. Have a look at Document Number 8, Defence Number 1213. And could

14 you tell me whether you recognise this document and is it an order

15 resulting from your obligation to make a list of buildings and commercial

16 buildings in the area of the Municipality of Travnik?

17 A. Yes. This is a document from the municipal civilian protection

18 staff, and this is one of the measures we would take in the course of the

19 war. This is one of the orders that we forwarded to municipal protection

20 staffs -- to protection staffs in local communes.

21 Q. Please, could you tell me the following: It says that this is an

22 inventory of business and auxiliary facilities in Travnik Municipality

23 which have been destroyed or torched. Was it your duty to make an

24 inventory of all buildings, facilities that had been torched regardless of

25 the cause, or did you have any other specific instructions?

Page 11622

1 A. The government of Travnik Municipality ordered us to make an

2 inventory of all business and auxiliary facilities in Travnik Municipality

3 which had been destroyed and torched after the clash between the army and

4 the HVO.

5 Q. So the word -- when it says "torched," which is a word which is

6 repeated, this relates to all the buildings that burnt down, not only to

7 buildings that were deliberately torched. Am I interpreting this

8 correctly? You had to make a list of all the buildings that had caught

9 fire. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. I don't know whether I mentioned this, but the document is Defence

12 Number 1213.

13 Could we please have a look at Document Number 9, Defence Number

14 1214. And this is a description of residential buildings in the area of

15 Maline, Donja Maline. Do you recognise this document as a document

16 drafted on the basis of the municipal civilian protection staff by a

17 commission that had been formed?

18 A. Yes. This is a document from the Maline municipal civilian

19 protection, and my signature is here, the 25th of August 1993.

20 Q. So on the third page of the document it, says the 21st of August

21 1993, you can recognise your signature there?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The commissions that visited each building and made a list of

24 buildings, did they also have to make a note of any other factors? And if

25 so, what exactly did they have to do? Or rather, did they have to

Page 11623

1 describe any other factors, causes, the time, et cetera?

2 A. Yes. Commissions were given the task of making a record of all

3 the buildings that had been destroyed and set on fire in the field, and

4 they were also to make a note of what was important for the protection

5 staff and for the government so that measures could be taken to clear up

6 the field.

7 Q. Mr. Hockic, is this one of the documents and is this a way in

8 which you tried to provide all the information you had obtained about the

9 buildings damaged in the field?

10 A. Yes. This is one way of obtaining the relevant information.

11 Q. Mr. Hockic, the commission that drafted these reports, how did

12 they obtain information? Was it necessary to go into the field and visit

13 all the buildings, or was this done in some other way?

14 A. Well, we're talking about one commission in one local commune.

15 But in all local communes, all the commissions had the same task. They

16 had to go into the field themselves, and they had to examine the situation

17 in the field and make a record of all the houses destroyed and set on

18 fire. The municipal staff told them to use our representatives in the

19 field. These were professional people who could help them and provide

20 them with the relevant information. Then they could obtain information

21 from the local population who had remained there or who were still present

22 in the surroundings. They made a note of all the information they

23 obtained.

24 Q. Have a look at Document Number 10. It's Defence Number 1220.

25 Tell me whether you recognise this document, and is this one of the ways

Page 11624

1 in which the civilian protection would remove certain items from others?

2 A. Yes, this is a document from the municipal staff of civilian

3 protection. It's signed by the commander, Momcilo Malenica. And at the

4 time, we had approval of the government or executive committee in Travnik

5 according to which we could seize certain items provided that this was

6 recorded.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hockic, a minute ago you said that you provided

8 information so that measures could be taken. If you establish that

9 someone had misappropriated or committed another crime and that threatened

10 a facility under the protection of civilian protection, in such cases,

11 what sort of measures did you take, if you took any sort of measures?

12 A. There were such incidents in the course of the war. Food was even

13 stolen from our warehouses, from lorries when they were being transported.

14 We took measures, the command of the civilian protection staff took

15 disciplinary measures or referred the case to the police so that they

16 could investigate them. There are written records in our archives on

17 these incidents that occurred in the course of the war.

18 Q. Mr. Hockic, could you please have a look at Document Number 11.

19 This document is Defence Number 1221. And then have a look at Document

20 Number 18. 1241 is the Defence number. Have a look at Document Number

21 19. 1247 is the Defence number.

22 A. Could you please slow down a bit.

23 Q. Have a look at Document Number 11, at Document Number 18, Document

24 Number 19, Defence Number 1247; Document 20, Defence Number 1248; and

25 Document 21, Defence Number 1249.

Page 11625

1 And I would like to ask you whether this is an example or whether

2 this is one of the examples that you mentioned of the measures taken by

3 the civilian protection staff.

4 A. These documents are documents from the municipal protection staff.

5 And as I mentioned, it refers to measures that we took when material goods

6 were stolen.

7 Q. Have a look at Document Number 12 - 1255 is the Defence number -

8 and tell me whether this is a document from the municipal staff of the

9 civilian protection.

10 A. Yes. This is a document from the municipal civilian protection

11 staff in Travnik.

12 Q. Before I show you part of this document, I would like to ask you

13 the following: Since you have spoken of tens of thousands of refugees,

14 Mr. Hockic, tell me, tell me whether at any point in time the civilian

15 protection staff and other organs were confronted with large-scale

16 movement of that population towards abandoned areas and were they

17 confronted with other problems related to this sudden departure from

18 Travnik?

19 A. The municipal staff of the civilian protection in Travnik, when it

20 received an order from the government in the Municipality of Travnik to

21 move people into abandoned houses and to protect the livestock and

22 agricultural products which were in the houses and by the houses,

23 encountered a serious problem. They were unable to act in this way

24 because people had moved into most of the houses by that time.

25 Q. Please, have a look at paragraph 4, line 1 where you describe some

Page 11626

1 of the information you obtained and tell me whether you yourself were

2 confronted with the facts that you have referred to in your report, in

3 addition to the prohibition of movement for civilians. Can you see that

4 part?

5 A. Yes. That is the problem we had to confront. We could only move

6 into a certain number of houses. I see it says 13 houses here. I think

7 it's correct. But as you can see, it wasn't possible to move into 187

8 houses. People had moved into them before. People were living in very

9 difficult conditions. We had 19 canteens, 10 refugee centres. The living

10 conditions were difficult. And people quite simply left those centres and

11 moved into those houses. We couldn't control the situation. We couldn't

12 prohibit this. They acted in this way before we took any action, so to

13 speak.

14 Q. In line 1, it says "a large number of civilians have been noticed

15 who are carrying abandoned property." When they say -- when reference is

16 made to a large number, could you tell us what sort of a number that

17 concerns and what sort of problems did you have at the time? Do you see

18 what it means, "when visiting the field, the commissions determine the

19 following..." and then in line 1, they mention a conclusion that was

20 reached.

21 So could you tell us, at that time with regard to the behaviour of

22 the civilians who were living in impossible conditions at the time, could

23 you tell us what it means when they say that there were a large number of

24 civilians? Were there tens of them, hundreds of them?

25 A. I think there were hundreds of them. And we couldn't control

Page 11627

1 these people. And the citizens were prohibited from moving around those

2 areas. This was not a prohibition that was respected by them.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's have a look at Document Number 13 now. This is

4 Defence Number 1233. Is this also a document from the civilian protection

5 staff?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Have a look at number 14, Document Number 14. Defence Number

8 1234. Is this also a document from the civilian protection that relates

9 to one of your tasks?

10 A. Yes. This is a document from the civilian protection municipal

11 staff.

12 Q. Have a look at Document Number 15, Defence Number 1235, addressed

13 to the Travnik municipal government. Is this a document of yours, and

14 does it also refer to another serious problem that you and other organs in

15 Travnik were preoccupied with at the time?

16 A. Yes. This is a document from the municipal civilian protection

17 staff. It was addressed to the Travnik municipal government, and this is

18 one of the problems we had in 1993. And we wanted to inform the

19 government so that they could take measures and help to solve the problem.

20 Q. Mr. Hockic, in July 1993 -- in June 1993, was it possible for food

21 and equipment to be transported to Travnik and to the territory under the

22 control of the army? And to what extent was hunger an issue that wasn't

23 discussed since hunger was widespread? Could you tell us anything about

24 that?

25 A. Well, it was very difficult to provide supplies and provide

Page 11628

1 humanitarian aid for refugees and for the inhabitants of the Municipality

2 of Travnik themselves. And the municipal civilian protection staff wasn't

3 capable of dealing with this, which is why we contacted the war presidency

4 and the government, to request that they assist us when dealing with this

5 problem, which was very serious, as I said. There was not enough food.

6 Could I just add something else: The UNHCR -- well, we also

7 contacted international organisations for help, primarily the UNHCR, with

8 whom we cooperated. And in 1993, we received 120 tonnes of seed potato

9 and 100.000 bags of various kinds of seeds, and 63 tonnes of -- autumn

10 sowing seeds. I think the UNHCR helped us.

11 Q. Please have a look at Documents 16 and 17. One is Document 1236,

12 and other one 24 [as interpreted]. Tell us whether these are documents

13 that the government provided to the civilian protection, or are they

14 documents that refer to civilian protection tasks in relation to the

15 civilian population?

16 A. Yes. Document Number 16 is a government document, the Travnik

17 Municipality. And it charges us with cooperation of this kind. And

18 Document 17 is our own document, the municipal civilian protection staff.

19 Q. Could you look at Document Number 22, please. It is Defence

20 Exhibit 1252.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to repeat the last two

22 digits. It is 1236 and 1240, those two documents.

23 Q. And this brings us to Document Number 22.

24 Mr. Hockic, we already spoke about the commissions that had to

25 establish the situation the premises were in after fighting, after combat.

Page 11629

1 Is this one of the documents compiled in the local commune of Kalibunar?

2 A. Yes. It is a document of the Kalibunar municipal civilian

3 protection staff.

4 Q. Now, does this document contain the time during which the damage

5 was caused as established by your commission?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. We can now move on to Document 23, and it is Defence

8 Number 1253. Is this a document of the civilian protection staff?

9 A. Yes. The municipal civilian protection staff of the Travnik

10 Municipality.

11 Q. Now, look at Document 24 or 1254 and tell me if these are the

12 steps you took to help in the population's feeding? Because you said a

13 moment ago that the UNHCR had sent you some seeds and other necessary

14 goods to ensure food for the population.

15 A. Yes, this is a document of the civilian defence staff of the

16 municipality, and this is an order regulating the establishment and

17 formation of a work platoon to engage in farming when it came to hoeing

18 potatoes, weeding onions, and it is in line with what we received from the

19 UNHCR. And the task was to implement this in the local communes.

20 Q. Now, take a look at Document 25, which is D1256, and tell me

21 whether this is indeed a document compiled by your staff.

22 A. Yes, it is a municipal civilian protection staff document.

23 Q. Take a look at the document, paragraph 2, which sets out a number

24 of activities. Are these all activities which at that period of time you

25 were engaged in implementing? And what problems did you encounter in

Page 11630

1 going about your business and implementing those tasks?

2 A. Yes. These are the activities that we undertook, the measures of

3 civilian protection in the Travnik Municipality, and we had quite a few

4 problems that we had to deal with in the course of our work. The problems

5 we weren't able to solve ourselves we contacted the government of the

6 Travnik Municipality and asked for their assistance.

7 Q. Thank you. The next document is number 26, number 1263. Is this

8 another document testifying to the work of your commissions in each of the

9 individual municipalities or local communes of the Travnik Municipality

10 that you undertook in implementing the government decision?

11 A. Yes, that's right. This is for the local commune called Centar.

12 Centar.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hockic, if you had to carry out your tasks close

14 to the front lines, close to the fighting, who issued permission to you

15 allowing you to move around in the area?

16 A. The municipal staff of the civilian protection of Travnik would

17 contact the operative group directly, Krajina, and it was located at the

18 command in Travnik at the time. And it would issue permits for us to be

19 able to move around in those areas, in the areas where fighting was going

20 on. But not only for the municipal staff, but also for the commissioners

21 and for members of the civilian protection staff in the local communes.

22 Q. Thank you. Take a look at Documents 27 and 28, Defence Numbers

23 1270 and 1271, and tell us, please, whether they reflect what we've just

24 heard from you.

25 A. Yes, that's right. These are documents of the Travnik civilian

Page 11631

1 protection municipal staff, and they talk about what I've just been saying

2 to you.

3 Q. Take a look at Document 29. D1283 is the number. Before you take

4 a look at the document, however, I would like to ask you this: In case in

5 the local communes there were certain problems, if problems arose, did

6 members of the municipal staff go on the spot to deal with the situation

7 together with the locals there and seek out solutions? Or didn't you --

8 weren't you obliged to do that?

9 A. These are the minutes from an extended meeting of the Stari Grad

10 civilian protection staff. According to our methods of work, this is what

11 we would do. We would have regular visits to the civilian protection

12 staff of the local communes, and we would give them professional

13 assistance and help them in resolving the problems that would crop up on

14 the ground.

15 Q. Thank you. We've already seen the following document, so we move

16 on to Document 32 or D1302. Is that a document of your staff as well,

17 issued by your staff?

18 A. Would you repeat the document's number, please.

19 Q. It is number 32 or 1302.

20 A. Yes, I have it. That is indeed a document of the municipal

21 civilian protection staff of the Travnik Municipality, yes, sent to the

22 municipal government.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, take a look at Document 33 or 1303. Is this

24 authorisation from an organ to the Travnik Municipality?

25 A. This is a document -- it is a government conclusion, in fact, that

Page 11632

1 is addressed to the civilian protection staff. And it has the force of

2 law, or rather, it is based on the law on the basis of government

3 activity. But at the beginning of the war, we passed a document

4 pertaining to civilian protection for the Travnik Municipality adopted by

5 the war presidency. Yes, it did provide a legal groundwork for us to

6 carry out an assignment like this.

7 Q. Mr. Hockic, faced with situations of this kind, that is to say,

8 when in a given area you had a unit of the BH Army present engaged in an

9 assignment, did you inform those units about the measures you had taken or

10 were about to take? And if so, why did you do that? Why did you inform

11 the unit on the spot about your assignments?

12 A. We were duty-bound to inform units in writing who were active in

13 our area. And we were bound to do that by an instruction on compulsory

14 cooperation which was issued at the beginning of 1992 by the Ministry of

15 Defence. And that's what we did. We acted on it for cooperation

16 purposes, to facilitate matters, and to be able us to perform our tasks,

17 the tasks issued to us by the wartime presidency and the government all in

18 the aim of protecting people and property.

19 Q. Thank you. The next document is number 34, it is a government

20 document again, and tell me, please, whether this, too, is a document

21 setting out the tasks of civilian protection.

22 A. Yes. That's right. This is the Travnik Municipality government

23 document sent to us, and the conclusion was that it was up to us to solve

24 certain problems in the area.

25 Q. Now we're going to look at the next documents, which are linked to

Page 11633

1 your legal duty and given to you by the government to ascertain the state

2 of affairs, to ascertain what condition the houses in your area were in.

3 So the document is Number 35 or D1307.

4 Tell us, please, whether that, too, is one of the reports compiled

5 by a committee set up in the field for the Stari Grad civilian protection

6 staff.

7 A. Yes, that's right, it is. It is the Stari Grad civilian

8 protection staff document sent to the Travnik Municipality and the

9 civilian protection staff there.

10 Q. Let's now look at number 36, or D1325 and tell me what that

11 document is about.

12 A. May I just be allowed to add that on Document 35, you have my

13 signature confirming that I received the document myself. It is the Stari

14 Grad civilian protection document sent to Travnik.

15 Q. Would you look at the date, please.

16 A. It says the 27th -- the 20th of July 1993.

17 Q. You mean the 20th of July 1993, when you say "7," that is the

18 seventh month, July?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, what does this document represent?

21 A. It is a list of individuals whose houses were burnt down in the

22 area, Stari Grad.

23 Q. Now, look at Document 37, please. Is this also - this document,

24 D1332 - a civilian protection staff document?

25 A. Yes. The Travnik municipal civilian protection staff document.

Page 11634

1 Q. Now, you mentioned the various problems that you had to contend

2 with. Is this then a document instructing you to accelerate the

3 implementation of the orders and assignments issued to you previously?

4 A. Let me tell you that on the ground, the commissions faced a lot of

5 problems and they weren't able to keep the deadline and get everything

6 done within the deadline that we ordered them to do and that the

7 government in turn ordered us to carry out. Now, in view of the fact that

8 the government had asked us to report back to it, that's what we did. We

9 compiled a document, this particular one, asking that the implementation

10 of ordered measures be accelerated regardless of the problems that they

11 were encountering.

12 Q. Take a look at the next document, Number 38, or D1337, now,

13 please, and could you take a look at the last page of that document. Can

14 you tell me, please, when the document was compiled.

15 A. The report was compiled or the document was compiled on the 23rd

16 of July 1993.

17 Q. From this document, we can see that -- actually, the document is

18 handwritten. Now, why did the chief of staff of the civilian protection

19 staff of Han Bila write out this document in his own hand with pencil and

20 paper? Why is it handwritten?

21 A. Well, as you can see, we had technical problems to contend with,

22 too. There were no typewriters, for example. And as far as I remember,

23 after 11 years, we said at the time, as I myself coordinated this

24 particular measure - I was a member of the staff for fire protection and

25 these were all houses that had been set on fire - we said, all right, if

Page 11635

1 you don't have any typewriters, then compile the report in handwriting.

2 So this report had to be signed and sealed and stamped, and it is a valid

3 document.

4 Q. Let's dwell on this first document, please, to begin with. On

5 page 1, it says that it is the Pode populated area. Now here, like in

6 other places, was the commission duty-bound to carry out an investigation

7 of each individual house and to write down what it found, what it

8 personally saw on the spot and the information it received about the

9 particular building or premises?

10 A. This commission, like all the other commissions, were duty-bound

11 to go on the spot in the field, go from house to house, and carry out a

12 house-to-house inspection into the condition of the building, and then to

13 reflect that and put pen to paper and write a report. And that's what

14 this commission did, too.

15 Q. Take a look at page 2. It says "a list of abandoned houses in

16 upper and lower Cukle village." This G and D. What did that mean? It

17 says "G and D Cukle." What does the G and D stand for?

18 A. Yes, it stands for upper and lower Cukle.

19 Q. Now, the list that follows, is that the list reflecting the

20 condition of the buildings that the commission came across on the 21st of

21 July -- on the 23rd of July 1993 when it inspected the buildings?

22 A. Yes, that's right. That was the situation the commission came

23 across on that particular date, 1993.

24 Q. Thank you. Would you now take a look at the six-page document.

25 It says Rudnik Baje Vrbice inhabited area.

Page 11636

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did the commission act in a similar fashion identically in setting

3 out all the buildings that existed in that particular locality?

4 A. Yes, I think so. I think it followed instructions from us.

5 Q. Now, on the last page, in the B/C/S language, the last place

6 mentioned is Grahovcici. Was that the situation that your commission came

7 across on the 23rd of July 1993?

8 A. Yes, it is. Our commission established that the situation was as

9 it was on the 23rd of July 1993 in the populated area of Grahovcici.

10 Q. Now if the front line was quite near and if the fighting was going

11 on nearby, were you able to inspect that particular locality, or rather

12 the locality where there was fighting going on? Were you able to inspect

13 that?

14 A. Well, that was one of the problems we encountered in the field,

15 and we had to ask permission from the army to go there so as not to expose

16 our men to danger. So we had to ask permission from the army to give us

17 permission to go into those areas and establish the situation. That was

18 our cooperation with the army.

19 Q. Now, at the end of that document, there's a remark. Could you

20 tell us how far the remark had to do with the problem you've just

21 elucidated and commented on.

22 A. In Brajkovici, the army had been billeted there, and we weren't

23 able to perform our task. And we take note of that in this remark.

24 Q. Would you now take a look at Document 39 or Defence Document 1344.

25 Is this one of the reports compiled by the commission pertaining to the

Page 11637

1 state of affairs on the 26th of July 1993 in the village of Krpeljici?

2 A. Yes, it is. This is indeed a document compiled by the commission

3 in Krpeljici, and this is the situation on the buildings destroyed and

4 burnt in the village.

5 Q. This brings us to Document Number 40, or D1345. Tell us what

6 that's about, please.

7 A. This is a document compiled by the commission of the local commune

8 of Guca Gora. And it is a report on destroyed and burnt-out buildings in

9 Guca Gora.

10 Q. Tell me, Mr. Hockic, is Guca Gora a large village? Do you know

11 roughly speaking how many households there are in that village?

12 A. It is a large local commune, yes. How many households? Well, let

13 me hazard a guess. Well, about 200 houses.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, when your commission toured the buildings, went

15 round the village, did it have to make a note of every building and

16 outhouse such as barns, sheds, and so on, auxiliary buildings which might

17 have been destroyed or set fire to?

18 A. The commissions had the task of making lists of all the houses,

19 all the buildings that were destroyed and burnt, as well as all the

20 auxiliary buildings and outhouses belonging to one household.

21 Q. In this list, Mr. Hockic, as far as I can see, there are 46

22 buildings inspected by the commission. So tell me now, please, whether

23 this particular commission, in addition to depicting the state of the

24 facility in question, did it also provide you with relevant information as

25 to when the destruction was caused? And pursuant to their information,

Page 11638

1 how the destruction came about in the first place?

2 A. The commission, just like all the other commissions, did go out to

3 inspect the situation in the field directly. They were assisted by the

4 civilian protection commissioners, and they sent us a report containing

5 all the information they were able to come by when conducting their

6 inspection on the ground. The information they did not have, they could

7 not convey to us, and they could not make a note of.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, we come to Document 41, or D1346. And tell us,

9 please, what that document is about.

10 A. This is a document of the civilian protection staff of Guca Gora,

11 and it is a report on buildings demolished and torched in the village of

12 Radojicici. The date at the bottom is the 21st of August 1993, and I

13 signed it saying I had indeed received it from the civilian protection

14 staff. This is my signature.

15 Q. If we take a look, for example, at point 3, could we say that the

16 two stables mentioned there belonging to Marko Kafadar were torched on

17 that date, the 21st of August 1993? Is that what it means?

18 A. Yes, that's what it means.

19 Q. Now, look at Document Number 42 or D1347. That's the next

20 document. What's this about?

21 A. This is a report compiled by the commission on the destroyed and

22 burnt-out buildings in the village of Velika Bukovica. It is the local

23 commune of Guca Gora.

24 Q. Mr. Hockic, does this report have a date? Does it indicate the

25 date when these properties were destroyed or burnt?

Page 11639

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, if it says here that all these buildings were destroyed on

3 the 4th of June 1993, what does that mean? What does it signify to you?

4 A. Could you explain what you mean, please.

5 Q. According to the report, we see that all these buildings were set

6 fire to and destroyed on the 4th of June 1993. Now, I'm interested in

7 knowing whether you knew what events took place in Velika Bukovica on the

8 4th of June.

9 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with the Trial Chamber's permission,

10 I do not think my friend is quite accurate because there are indications

11 on the list when fires were set on the 9th of June as well. So to

12 indicate to the witness that the fires were set only on the 4th, I think,

13 would be a little bit misleading as the document itself does say that

14 fires were set on the 9th.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. My learned friend

16 is quite right. And I withdraw that question because I did see that on

17 page 2, there are other dates. So I apologise.

18 Q. But Witness, Mr. Hockic, could you tell me, please, whether on the

19 4th of June the names of the people whose properties were burnt on the 4th

20 of June, to which ethnicity did these people belong to? What was the

21 majority ethnic affiliation?

22 A. They were all Bosniaks, of Bosniak ethnicity.

23 Q. Mr. Hockic, did your commission provide you with information at

24 that time that the village of Gornja Bukovica was completely destroyed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11640

1 Q. Would you now take a look at Document Number 43, or D1348. Which

2 local commune is concerned here?

3 A. It concerns the Pirota local commune.

4 Q. Please have a look at Document Number 44, Defence number 1352.

5 A. Yes. This is a document from the civilian protection staff in

6 Guca Gora addressed to the municipal civilian protection staff in Travnik.

7 Q. Which villages does this report concern?

8 A. It concerns the villages of Bandol, Radojicici, Krpeljici, and

9 Velika Bukovica.

10 Q. Could you please have a look at Document 1353 now, or Document

11 Number 45. And then have a look at Document 1355, and this document is

12 also Number 46. And have a look at Document Number 1355, which also has

13 the number 47 [as interpreted].

14 Since we've seen this first document, and you mentioned the

15 villages concerned, do the documents you now see concern an individual

16 list of all the local inhabitants and their families whose houses were

17 torched or destroyed?

18 A. Yes. These are lists of residents whose houses were burnt in

19 Radojicici, Velika Bukovica, and in the village of Bandol.

20 Q. Mr. Hockic, since this was part of your responsibility, did you

21 receive from the commission any information as to how many houses remained

22 intact in the village of Bandol, if any houses did remain intact?

23 A. The commission informed us that the village of Bandol had been

24 completely destroyed and torched at the time.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 11641

1 Tell me, Mr. Hockic, whether you know anything about fighting

2 continuing in that area, and up until the end of the war, was any damage

3 done to buildings? Were any buildings destroyed?

4 A. Yes. The fighting continued. Buildings continued to be torched.

5 And we were still informed about such cases. But in many cases, we

6 couldn't obtain any information as there was ongoing combat.

7 Q. Tell me, the situation you found there on the 26th of July 1993,

8 and the situation in the year 2000 in the same area, can the situation in

9 1993 and the situation in 2000 be compared at all?

10 A. Well, it's very difficult to do that.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hockic.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I had hoped to

13 conclude my examination sooner, but my colleagues wanted to object to the

14 way in which I was proceeding, and my colleagues wanted to object to

15 showing these documents. So I had to proceed in this manner and go

16 through each document with the witness. Thank you very much.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I address you.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we are listening to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to add something to my

20 testimony. I forgot to mention that in the course of the war, I also

21 performed other important duties. In 1993, I was appointed by the Travnik

22 district government as a member of the district civilian protection staff

23 for fire protection. So I had this post as well. I had these duties to

24 perform. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 11642

1 And the other Defence team.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

3 only have a few questions for Mr. Hockic.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hockic, can we go back to Document Number 33

6 in this bundle of documents. Are you familiar with this document?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This is a conclusion of the government of Travnik Municipality.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The date is the 12th of June 1993?

12 A. Yes.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The 12th of July 1993, correction.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Under item 1, it says because of the newly arrived refugees, the

16 municipal civilian protection staff should - and they're referring to the

17 Travnik staff. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. It concerns Grahovcici, Cukle, and Brajkovici. That's the sector

20 concerned. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are all these villages in the Travnik Municipality?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the civilian protection must coordinate activities with the

25 306th [as interpreted] Brigade. This concerns accommodation and reception

Page 11643

1 of refugees?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There's an error in the transcript. It says the 306th, and it

4 should be the 314th Brigade, as can be seen in the document.

5 And my last question: On the 12th of June 1993, in these

6 villages -- on the 12th of July, there were buildings which could be used

7 to provide those refugees with accommodation, the refugees who were

8 arriving in Travnik. There were buildings that were fit for accommodation

9 for those refugees. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no further

12 questions.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 I'll give the floor to the Prosecution now. We have another 20

15 minutes until the break.

16 Cross-examined by Ms. Benjamin:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hockic. My name is Tecla Henry-Benjamin, and

18 I am one of the representatives of the Prosecution in this matter.

19 As the Trial Chamber -- as the President indicated to you, I'll be

20 asking you a few questions. And if at any time you do not understand what

21 I'm saying, please feel free to stop me, and I will oblige. Thank you.

22 For clarification purposes, you indicated to my learned friend

23 that your role was to protect the property and the persons in the Travnik

24 Municipality. Am I correct?

25 A. Yes, that's what we had to do according to the law.

Page 11644

1 Q. Could you correct me or could you elaborate for me if I'm wrong,

2 do I understand you to mean or am I interpreting it correctly, when you

3 say to protect property and persons, are we talking of life and limb as

4 well?

5 A. Well, yes. To protect their lives, too. Because if we had to

6 provide them with medical treatment and if we had to prevent infectious

7 diseases from occurring, et cetera, then that involved protecting their

8 lives as well.

9 Q. Thank you. And in addition to that, if I understood you

10 correctly, you were also responsible for protection of fire, anything that

11 had to do with fire prevention. Am I correct?

12 A. Yes. I was a member of the civilian protection for fire

13 prevention and also of the regional staff, the regional civilian

14 protection staff fire prevention. So I had these two separate positions.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, my learned friend showed you quite a number of

16 documents. And on each occasion, you stated that this is what the

17 commission presented to me. My question to you is this: You personally

18 have never gone out into the field, have you?

19 A. I went into the field in the case of the Kalibunar local commune,

20 in the case of the old city centre.

21 Q. And you will agree with me if I say that the Travnik Municipality

22 is a very wide, broad area? Broad geographical area. Am I correct?

23 A. Yes, it's a fairly broad area.

24 Q. And I take it that you were aware that, for example, in June or,

25 to be more specific, on the 8th of June 1993, there was a conflict in the

Page 11645

1 Travnik Municipality. Am I correct?

2 A. I was in Travnik when a conflict broke out between the HVO and the

3 BH Army.

4 Q. And you just answered my question. The conflict took place

5 between two armies, the HVO and the BiH Army. Correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Thank you. And as a result of the conflict, a series of things

8 happened: There was loss of lives, destruction of property, to name a

9 few. Am I correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Now, could you state for the Trial Chamber, then, for me, if as

12 you said earlier on there was a conflict between the ABiH and the HVO,

13 could you state for the Trial Chamber for me: In the numerous documents

14 that you have been shown, how do you know or how you came to find out that

15 these destroyed properties were destroyed by the HVO? And if you want me,

16 if I can find the particular ones where you have highlighted the HVO, this

17 was burnt by the HVO.

18 Could you tell me how you were able to identify which army was

19 responsible for the destruction.

20 A. Well, we determined this on the basis of the work of our organ in

21 the field where there was ongoing combat. This was primarily the local

22 communes. The municipal civilian protection staffs followed these

23 activities. And we had agents in the field who also monitored the

24 situation and who provided us with written and oral reports. They would

25 come to the municipal staff, and we would exchange information.

Page 11646

1 Q. But, sir, it is your evidence that the conflict was going on

2 between two armies. Am I correct? And it is your evidence that as a

3 result of the conflict, destruction took place. Let's deal with the

4 properties, first. Destruction took place.

5 So my question to you is: If there was a conflict going on

6 between two armies and destruction arose out of that conflict, how could

7 someone -- or assist us, then, how could you assess who was responsible

8 for the damage in light of the fact that you tell us that the fighting was

9 taking place between both parties?

10 A. Well, the war presidency assessed the situation. They were in

11 control of the entire situation in the area of Travnik Municipality. Then

12 the government of Travnik Municipality and the executive committee

13 assessed the situation. And our professional organs, the municipal

14 civilian protection staff also assessed the situation, as well as the

15 agents that we had. These agents had been trained for such things, and

16 this was their task, and they reported to us on the situation that they

17 had observed.

18 Q. And I quite agree with you, because that's the report that you

19 received. But I'm asking you now for your personal opinion. What do you

20 understand by what went on -- if a conflict is going on, isn't there

21 shooting on either sides by both armies, throwing of grenades or

22 whatever - would you agree with me - by both armies? Isn't that what was

23 happening? Firing on either side of the line during the conflict? Is

24 that -- isn't that what was happening?

25 Could you answer for the benefit of the transcript, please.

Page 11647

1 A. Yes. The conflict was between the HVO and the ABiH. That was

2 quite clear. I don't think it's necessary to explain this in detail. But

3 the documents here are valid ones, and they describe the situation in the

4 area at the time. And they describe the measures that we took after the

5 conflict.

6 Q. I am sure that the documents are all very valid; I'm very sure.

7 But I'm discussing this with you from a realistic point of view, reality

8 now. Are you -- is it your evidence that your men, when they went out

9 into the field, was able to determine by I guess people they had spoken

10 to, that -- look, on the 8th of June, that grenade that hit that house

11 over there, that was an HVO grenade, and that one that hit the one over

12 there, that was an HVO grenade? And the houses that were left spared, the

13 ABiH army didn't attack those. Is that what you're trying to say to this

14 Trial Chamber?

15 A. The people who were involved in this work, they were from the

16 area. They knew how -- they knew what the ratio was between the ABiH

17 forces and the HVO. They knew where the shells were coming from. They

18 knew how the conflict had started. And in these reports, they ascertained

19 what the situation was in the field and they provided us with this

20 information. And we would provide this information to the government and

21 the presidency, and we would take measures in order to protect this

22 property from further deterioration, to prevent further damage being done

23 to them, and also to protect the population who remained there.

24 Q. And I don't want to belabour the point, but you will agree with me

25 if I were to say that the reports, in the light that they were presented,

Page 11648

1 were not quite accurate reports, or they could not have been accurate

2 reports given the scenario?

3 A. I'd agree that the information wasn't precise, but I think we were

4 able to act on the basis of the information we had, but it's difficult for

5 information to be 100 per cent accurate. But as to what was done in the

6 field, I believe, as a member of that professional organ, that it was done

7 very professionally at the time, given the conditions.

8 Q. Thank you. Thanks.

9 Now, as to the ethnic background of the civilians in the Travnik

10 Municipality, I'm sure you'll agree with me if I were to say to you that

11 there were different ethnic backgrounds in different amounts. Am I

12 correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. In your documents, and there were several of them, so I'm not

15 going to really identify any particular one. But in your documents but in

16 the documents that were shown to you by the Defence, when asked what was

17 the ethnic background of the civilians who had lost property, properties

18 that had been burnt and looted and so on, you clearly answered that all

19 the properties, the ethnic backgrounds of the owners of all the properties

20 was Bosniak. Am I correct?

21 A. No, there were owners who were Croats and owners of other ethnic

22 backgrounds, too.

23 Q. But you were shown a list, Number 12, 1225 for example, that's

24 just an example. And you were asked "what is the ethnic background of the

25 people there whose properties were lost or destroyed?" And your answer

Page 11649

1 was: "Bosniak." Maybe you could take a look at the document.

2 A. Could you tell me the order -- the number of the document. Is it

3 15? 17? It's easier for me.

4 Q. It's number 12 on the list, and it's 1225.

5 A. Thank you.

6 This concerns the problems on executing the order on temporary

7 settling people in abandoned housing, protection of livestock and

8 agricultural products. People moved into these houses. These were

9 Croatian houses that had been abandoned in the course of the conflict, and

10 refugees moved into them. In order to protect the houses, above all, the

11 houses that people didn't move into, these houses had been torched. They

12 had burnt down.

13 Q. I think we may have had the document mistaken, because the

14 document I'm thinking of was a list of documents -- houses that you had.

15 Maybe we could look at the latter documents that you just had. It was a

16 pile of documents with a whole list of houses, and when you were asked,

17 you said they were all Bosniaks. And my question to you is --

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If I could help my learned

19 colleague, the numbers are 45, 46, 47, the numbers for these documents.

20 MS. BENJAMIN: Thanks to my colleague.

21 Q. And I think you indicated to us that the ethnic background would

22 have been Bosniak. Am I correct?

23 Now, if according to us or according to as you told us the Travnik

24 Municipality consisted of civilians of different ethnic backgrounds, my

25 question to you then would be, other than the Bosniaks in the Travnik

Page 11650

1 Municipality, did the other ethnic backgrounds -- ethnic-background

2 civilians own properties in Travnik?

3 A. Yes. There were citizens of other ethnic backgrounds who owned

4 property.

5 Q. And did you receive any reports from your commission with respect

6 to destruction of properties owned by other ethnic backgrounds? For

7 example, the Croats?

8 A. Yes, we received such reports, too.

9 Q. Thank you. It's just that it wasn't clear to me whether there

10 were properties destroyed by -- as well. So thanks.

11 Now, we move on to life and limb. And you spoke of refugees

12 coming in to Travnik. Could you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

13 enlighten us to the -- as to the ethnic background of some of these people

14 that were coming into Travnik that you had to deal with.

15 A. On the whole, the refugees who arrived were Bosniaks. I'd like to

16 point out that at the beginning, before the war, or hadn't yet broken out

17 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were also refugees who came from Croatia

18 because there was a war in Croatia. We received Croatian refugees and

19 found accommodation for them on Vlasic in hotels. These were Croatian

20 areas, and the JNA was present on Vlasic. They asked us not to find

21 accommodation for them because they wanted their troops to be accommodated

22 in those hotels, and they asked us to find other accommodation for them.

23 So I mention this because I wanted you to know that we were involved in

24 this matter before the war, too.

25 In the course of the war, most of the refugees were Bosniaks, but

Page 11651

1 there were some Croatian refugees and refugees of other ethnic

2 backgrounds, too. But there were very few of these refugees.

3 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President. I think this might be a

4 convenient time.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's half past 12.00. We will

6 resume at 5 to 1.00. But I'd like to point out that we'll have 45 minutes

7 for you to finish your questions and for re-examination and for the

8 Judges' questions. I'd like to ask both parties to proceed expeditiously.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin.

12 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is everyone present and correct?

14 Yes.


16 Q. Sir, before the break, we -- I thought that we would go into the

17 other limb of your duties which is to protect life and limb. And I first

18 want to ask you -- I'm not going to be too long with you, so bear with me.

19 I first want to ask you, did your unit or your department have powers of

20 arrest? Were you able to make arrests of any nature, kind?

21 A. No, no. We didn't have those powers. That was done by the police

22 forces in the municipality.

23 Q. Thank you. And was your department solely responsible for

24 refugees?

25 A. That was just one of the 16 measures pursuant to the law that we

Page 11652

1 engaged in during the war.

2 Q. Did there come a time when you had seen persons of a different

3 ethnic background in the Travnik area?

4 A. Yes, in Travnik there were other ethnicities living there. And in

5 the civilian protection staff, there were people of other ethnicities.

6 And in the local communes, too, there were employees of different

7 ethnicities.

8 Q. And as to the man in the street -- I'll be specific with you. Did

9 there come a time when there were foreigners appearing in Travnik?

10 A. Yes, there were foreigners on the streets of Travnik as well.

11 Q. And did your unit or your department have in any way to protect

12 the citizens from these foreigners who may have been on the streets of

13 Travnik?

14 A. No, no. That wasn't one of our powers. We didn't do that. That

15 was up to the police, to protect these people.

16 Q. So when you say that your duties, the protection of life and limb

17 of the civilians, it was -- that duty was particularly limited because you

18 were protecting them only against a certain group of people. Am I right?

19 A. No. We protected all the people. Civilian protection meant

20 protection in natural disasters, accidents caused by technology, and so

21 on, to protect people and property. And of course in war and imminent

22 war, we were there to protect people from epidemics and so forth. But

23 when it came to foreigners, those were police affairs. It was up to the

24 police to see to that.

25 Q. I notice that you said your department assisted in the protection

Page 11653

1 of peoples in the course of war or imminent war. Now, in light of that,

2 and I will be specific in the interests of time, the Mehurici area, are

3 you familiar with the Mehurici school, elementary school?

4 A. Yes, I am familiar with that school.

5 Q. Are you aware that there were people detained in that school?

6 A. I was not aware of that myself.

7 Q. Did your department have at any time to go to the Mehurici school?

8 A. Well, yes, members of the staff did go. But I was engaged in fire

9 protection, and there was no need for me to go there.

10 Q. So you would not have received any reports with respect to the

11 Mehurici school and what may have gone on at the Mehurici school?

12 A. We did not receive that -- or rather, the staff did receive

13 reports, but not reports relating to the school. At least, I don't

14 remember any reports of that kind having come in to the staff.

15 Q. And I ask you this, particularly because you indicated to us that

16 one of your tasks was to provide doctors to attend to sick people, and I

17 know that in the Mehurici school, that service was requested. And I'm

18 asking now, did it come from you? Did you all provide doctors to the

19 Mehurici school?

20 A. In my testimony, I said that during the war we organised 12

21 makeshift clinics in cooperation with the medical centre, and one of those

22 makeshift clinic was in Mehurici. A member of the staff for medical

23 protection coordinated those activities. It didn't come up within the

24 realm of my own activities so I wasn't informed about that. He would have

25 to be here to answer that question. I'm sure he would know.

Page 11654

1 Q. And then, sir, correct me if I'm right, then, if I say that you

2 personally did not really go out into the fields, but in fact, you

3 collected -- you based your assessments on -- and your analysis on reports

4 received. Am I correct?

5 A. For the most part, with the proviso that I said in -- I based my

6 work on the town. But otherwise, for the field, I would rely on the

7 reports coming in from the local communes, the commissions and

8 commissioners. So you're right, but just to add that I did go to the

9 urban area, on the spot there of the local communes.

10 Q. And in light of the fact that you indicated to us that the police,

11 as far as you saw your role with respect to protection of life and limb,

12 it did not relate to the police and the police duties? It was completely

13 different. Am I correct?

14 A. [No verbal answer]

15 THE INTERPRETER: Witness nods.


17 Q. Could you answer, please, for the benefit of the transcript.

18 Could you answer, please, your last answer. I think you nodded, but could

19 you give a verbal answer, please.

20 A. Can you repeat all that, please.

21 Q. I had indicated to you that in light of the fact that the police,

22 that you saw the role of the police as the ones who had the powers of

23 arrest and protecting people in those instances, that it was completely

24 different from your role.

25 A. Yes. Quite different, completely different role.

Page 11655

1 Q. So then, you would not -- you would not receive reports with

2 respect to injuries to life and limb in places, for instance, like

3 Mehurici school where people may have been detained?

4 A. No, we didn't receive such reports.

5 Q. And as such, you really wouldn't be able to assist us today with

6 respect to the detention of people in centres -- in detention centres and

7 such. You couldn't assist us here today?

8 A. No, I couldn't. No.

9 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, sir.

10 Mr. President, that concludes.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has the floor.

12 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hockic, my learned colleague just asked you a

14 moment ago questions with respect to healthcare, and you said that you had

15 makeshift clinics, one of which was in Mehurici. Now, if the need arose

16 for detainees, for people who had been taken in needing medical care and

17 assistance, was it necessary to inform the municipal staff of civilian

18 protection, or did your makeshift clinic, could it give the medical

19 assistance that was necessary?

20 A. You're asking me a question that doesn't come under my domain. I

21 am in the field of fire prevention. But as I'm a member of the civilian

22 protection department, then this question was discussed collectively. And

23 Mehurici, one of those outposts, probably did provide medical assistance

24 if they were asked to do so. And that's why she is makeshift clinics were

25 set up there in the first place.

Page 11656

1 Q. Mr. Hockic, did you differentiate at all in the assistance you

2 gave to people? Did you differentiate the people? Did you ethnically

3 differentiate between them?

4 A. No, of course not. We never did that. Never looked at ethnicity.

5 Well, the civilian protection staff was made up of people of different

6 ethnicities, so the same structure was mirrored in the local communes. We

7 didn't look at the ethnicity of anyone. We just extended aid and

8 assistance, regardless of their religion. The important thing was that

9 they were all human beings.

10 Q. Mr. Hockic, a lot of the documents were signed by the commander --

11 the staff commander Momcilo. What ethnicity was he?

12 A. He was a Croat.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, please, Mr. Hockic, something linked to

14 the previous question asked by my learned friend that you mentioned only

15 some Bosniaks whose houses had been destroyed or damaged or torched. I

16 showed you many reports from Gornja Bukovica, Maline, and so on, other

17 places, too. Who were, in fact, the inhabitants in Guca Gora? What was

18 the population in Guca Gora made up of? Who lived there in Guca Gora?

19 A. Guca Gora was populated by Croats. That's Guca Gora. But when we

20 talk about the local commune, then that implies a broader area,

21 encompassing other villages, too.

22 Q. All right. Thank you. I just have one more question, and it is

23 linked to your care and attention of people who were in the primary school

24 at Mehurici. You said that that didn't come under your work and

25 assignment, and that you were not aware of any information from there.

Page 11657

1 But would you please take a look at Document 21. The third page of that

2 document sent to the public security station --

3 A. Excuse me, may I just take a moment to find it.

4 Q. Document 21, the number, the Defence Number is 1249. And it

5 refers to the 23rd of March 1993, sent to the public security station in

6 Travnik. Have you found the document?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. Now, if I read paragraph 1 of this document, it says the

9 following: "When food was transported for the detainees set up

10 accommodated in Mehurici, Bukovica, and individuals in the Mehurici

11 primary school, there was a lack of supplies when these supplies were

12 handed over to the local commune of Mehurici."

13 Mr. Hockic, does this document speak about your care and attention

14 to supplying food to people in this school, about food to this school?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I have no further questions.

18 I apologise. On page 76, line 14, it says the 23rd of March.

19 Perhaps I misspoke. Perhaps I made a slip of the tongue. It was the 23rd

20 of June 1993.

21 Thank you, Mr. Hockic. I have no further questions for this

22 witness, Mr. President.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No follow-up questions,

24 Mr. President, from us either. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

Page 11658

1 Sir, I have a few questions for you.

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But first of all, I would like

4 to follow on from the question that you were just asked by the Defence.

5 And would you take a look at Document 21, please. It refers to the

6 disappearance of goods that were brought into Mehurici, supplies brought

7 into Mehurici. In that document, Document 21, it states that some of

8 these supplies disappeared. And they are listed. 80 litres of oil, et

9 cetera. And it also says that during transport, and it is Document 1247

10 now that I'm referring to, 1247, that the supplies taken to the primary

11 school were -- actually, the supplies were being taken to the primary

12 school. Document 1247.

13 Now, look at Document 1241, 1-2-4-1, and it is Document 18, D1241.

14 It is the statement made by the drivers pertaining to the disappearance of

15 supplies. There were two drivers, and they recount what happened. Now,

16 would you please take a look at paragraphs 1 and 2, which state that the

17 goods which were brought in for the local community of Mehurici, for the

18 refugees, and then it says "and imprisoned Croats," "for the refugees and

19 imprisoned Croats." And the second driver states the same thing. The

20 second driver also speaks about the imprisoned Croats.

21 So this is a statement made by the two drivers on the 22nd of

22 June. And that statement is followed by the document of the 23rd of June

23 where the refugees and detainees, where the detainees disappear, and the

24 word that is used is "refugees." Now, how do you explain that?

25 How do you explain the fact that the term "prisoners" or

Page 11659

1 "detainees" has disappeared and given way to the term "refugees"? Do you

2 have an explanation for that?

3 A. To be quite frank, no, I don't.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You haven't. Very well.

5 Now, with regard to your authorisation of civilian protection,

6 would you be catering, entitled to cater to people who could be prisoners

7 in a given case? Did you have that responsibility, to bring them in

8 vegetable oil, bread, food in general? Would that come under your field

9 of competence, come within your powers and authorisations?

10 A. From these documents, what I can see is this: That we did indeed

11 take care of that category of persons. However, I think our mandate

12 stipulated first and foremost the care of refugees. But we also catered

13 to the domicile, resident population as well.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But to the best of your

15 recollections, did you ever focus your attention on prisoners that had to

16 be fed, detainees that had to be fed? So could the army rely on your

17 services to do that?

18 A. Well, I can assume that the answer would be yes, although I didn't

19 work directly with those matters. I was in the fire prevention

20 department, as I say. So this domain is -- I'm on shaky ground. I don't

21 know. Konjaric or someone else was in that post and would know about that

22 better. So I could just assume.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's another point that I'd

24 like you to clear up for us. You have already explained that you studied

25 in Sarajevo and that you studied political science. How come as a

Page 11660

1 political science graduate you find your -- found yourself doing this

2 other job? How was your professional -- how did your professional path

3 lead you to dealing with fires and fire prevention? Could you explain

4 that to me? Unless your mission was a mission of greater responsibility

5 than just looking after fires.

6 A. Well, let me be more specific. I graduated from the faculty of

7 political science of the social self--- national defence and social

8 self-protection department. So when I specialized, I opted for civilian

9 protection or civil defence. And one of the 16 measures included fire

10 prevention. It wasn't my choice. I didn't go to work there because I

11 wanted to, but because the war presidency thought that I could no longer

12 continue my function as chief of staff, and they sent me to the fire

13 prevention department. I wanted to remain in the civilian protection

14 system because that's where I thought my services could be best used

15 during the war.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, a final

17 question: At the very beginning of your testimony, and the first

18 questions asked you by the Defence with respect to civilian protection,

19 was to know under whom civilian protection came. And your answer was it

20 was under the Ministry of Defence and the supreme organ. And that's on

21 page 22 of the transcript, line 19.

22 I'd like you to confirm that answer, to tell me again. Above

23 civilian protection and organisation, did you have the Ministry of Defence

24 and that that was the supreme authority, the Ministry of Defence, was it?

25 A. By law, by the law governing civilian protection, we came under

Page 11661

1 the Ministry of Defence, which means, organisationally speaking,

2 organisationally speaking, we belonged to the Ministry of Defence.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. All right. But did you

4 depend -- were you independent of the Ministry of Defence and the army?

5 Dependent or independent? If you depend on a structure, then you are in a

6 state of dependency. So were you totally autonomous and independent or

7 were you subordinated to orders and instructions emanating by the Ministry

8 of Defence and by the same token from the units in the field, on the

9 ground?

10 A. No. We were subordinated in wartime to the presidency and the

11 government. But we certainly did receive instructions from the Ministry

12 of Defence as well because the assistant for civilian protection, the

13 minister's assistant for civilian protection, was in the Ministry of

14 Defence. He was a minister's assistant in the Ministry of Defence.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now, the Defence

16 provided this voluminous document, long document, stipulating the

17 authorisations to military units, the 306th, for example, the 306th

18 Brigade. To your mind, how could you combine the two, marry the two? A

19 certain form of interdependency with the army, for example, and making an

20 evaluation and assessment on the destruction caused to private property

21 during a conflict? Were you totally independent and autonomous in your

22 establishment of responsibility and assessments of the responsibilities?

23 Do you understand my question? It's rather a complex question and

24 a lengthy one. Do you understand it?

25 A. I understand your question completely, regardless of the fact it

Page 11662

1 is lengthy. I can say categorically that we were independent, autonomous.

2 But nonetheless, under the command -- not command, but under the

3 authorisational competence of the war presidency of the government.

4 Command is a military term. But we cooperated with the army which we

5 duty-bound to do following an instruction published in 1992, I think, or

6 1993. I'm not sure of the year. 1992 I think it was.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And just another

8 small question. You referred to the war presidency on a number of

9 occasions. In your opinion, this entity, war presidency, did it have the

10 competence and authorisation in the military field? Did the -- could the

11 war presidency play a role in military operations, or did it relay this to

12 the competent military authorities? To the best of your knowledge. You

13 might not know about that, but to the best of your knowledge, what do you

14 know about that? What can you tell us?

15 A. Well, I think that the war presidency assessed both military and

16 political -- the military and political situation. But it did not have

17 any command responsibility in the sense of issuing orders. I don't think

18 the war presidency could issue orders. The army was dependent down the

19 line vertically, down the chain of command and dependent on the commands.

20 That's my opinion anyway.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, Witness. I have a few questions on

23 the documents that were shown to you. Do you still have the binder with

24 the documents before you?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 11663

1 JUDGE SWART: The first binder I would like to ask about -- the

2 first document is Document Number 40. That has also the number 1345.

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE SWART: Now, this is an investigation about the houses in

5 Guca Gora which have been destroyed and burned out. And what strikes me

6 in this report is that the authors of this report have tried to

7 distinguish between different situations. For instance, in case number 7,

8 they say the house burned down as a result of combat activities. And the

9 same is true for 8. And perhaps also for 10. And in other situations,

10 they don't know, but sometimes they are able to say whether a house has

11 been destroyed after the combat or during the combat.

12 So this is all very helpful and interesting to read. And I have

13 no questions about that document. But I have some questions about another

14 document. That is Document 38, which is in the neighbourhood of Document

15 40. And that Document Number 38 also has the number of 1337. If you

16 would please take that document.

17 A. I have taken it, yes.

18 JUDGE SWART: I don't know who wrote it, but apparently these are

19 different authors or a different author from the people who wrote Document

20 Number 40. If you look at page 5 of the document, in the English

21 translation, I don't know what page number -- it's the last page anyhow.

22 You see that the -- yes, you have it? You see that the person or the

23 persons who wrote this make certain remarks on the village of Grahovcici,

24 and they say there: "22 houses were completely destroyed. 10 houses were

25 partially set on fire. And 30 houses were partially destroyed." Now

Page 11664

1 comes my question. When I read this, I get the impression that a

2 distinction is made between destruction and setting on fire of a house.

3 Otherwise, this would not make much sense to say that 30 houses were

4 partially destroyed, and 10 houses were partially set on fire.

5 Have you any idea what kind of distinction is made here between

6 destruction and setting a house on fire?

7 A. Well, the commission's task was to go to the sites. And if a

8 building was completely destroyed, razed to the ground, then they would

9 put the building in that category. If it was partially destroyed, that is

10 to say, if it still had its roof, if its roof and windows were still

11 intact but it had been damaged nevertheless, if it only required repair

12 work, then we would describe such damaged buildings as partially damaged

13 buildings. If a house was partially set on fire, it means that it didn't

14 burn down to the ground. It means that part of it had been burned.

15 Perhaps the roof, the windows, the door, et cetera, but the house could be

16 repaired. So that's how these commissions made these reports, the kind of

17 report that we have before us today.

18 JUDGE SWART: So the distinction between partially destroyed or

19 partially set on fire only says something about the cause of the

20 destruction. Was it a fire or was it another event. It is not a

21 distinction, I understand, between destroyed during a battle or destroyed

22 after a battle.

23 A. Well, if the commissions had information from agents of the

24 civilian protection or from staff members, then they would sometimes say

25 that the damage had been done in the course of combat. On the basis of

Page 11665

1 the report, you can see -- well, not in this report but in other reports,

2 when the commission could obtain relevant information, they would make a

3 note of it. Because we asked the commissions to make a note of all

4 relevant information that might be of use, not only for the municipal

5 staff but also for the government and international organisations. And

6 this was in order to be able to carry out repair work and move people into

7 these buildings. As for the information we couldn't obtain from them,

8 well, we asked them to send us any information that they themselves might

9 have gleaned in the field.

10 JUDGE SWART: In Document 38, you cannot draw any conclusion from

11 the distinction in terminology other than that. In the case of a house

12 being set on fire, there was a fire, and in the other situation, there was

13 another cause for the destruction.

14 A. That's correct. The document was written in the way it was

15 written by the commission.

16 JUDGE SWART: [Previous interpretation continues] ... to think

17 that set on fire is something that happens after a battle, and destroying

18 things is something that occurs during a battle, but you have explained

19 the importance of the terminology to us.

20 I have one other question: Some of the reports are of July 1993.

21 For instance, this one, 38, is on -- made on 23 of July, the 23rd of July.

22 I take it that the report refers to events in the beginning of June, like

23 other reports of July refer to events in June. For instance, report

24 number 40. About the dates of destruction or the dates of setting of

25 houses on fire, there is some six weeks between the event and the report.

Page 11666

1 How did the committees establish the dates of the reports?

2 For instance, I saw one report in which it was said a house has

3 been destroyed on the 4th of June or the 9th of June, or still another

4 date. What was the information they had to arrive at a precise

5 determination of a date?

6 A. Well, I said that commissions had a lot of problems in the field.

7 We didn't receive the necessary reports on the deadlines that had been set

8 by the government. We informed the government of these problems in

9 writing. And then Mrs. Edina informed me of a certain document or

10 reminded me of a document. There is a document which shows that we asked

11 for civilian protection staffs in local communes to become more involved,

12 and this included this staff, too. We made such requests in spite of the

13 problems they were facing, because combat was still ongoing. So we

14 requested that this work be done. And because of these problems in the

15 field, as you can see in this document which was drafted only on the 23rd

16 of July, well, we insisted on obtaining these documents in spite of all

17 the difficulties. As you can see, this is a handwritten document. There

18 were technical difficulties. We said in spite of these difficulties,

19 draft handwritten documents because there was no electricity, no light,

20 and there were other problems of a technical kind.

21 And because of all of these problems, it wasn't until the 23rd of

22 July that this document was drafted. But what is important is that it was

23 drafted. It wasn't drafted in accordance with our request, but it was

24 nevertheless possible to gain certain insights into the situation and to

25 take measures.

Page 11667

1 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. Just for the record, what is the family

2 name of Mrs. Edina, if I may ask.

3 A. Residovic.

4 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll give the floor to the

6 parties again. But for the sake of a clarification, or perhaps the

7 interpretation was wrong, you said that given the difficulties, the report

8 was handwritten. I see that the report on Guca Gora, 1345 in the B/C/S

9 version, was typewritten. It wasn't a handwritten report. That's

10 something I wanted to point out.

11 The Prosecution, we have a few more minutes.

12 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I just have two questions to the

13 witness.

14 Further cross-examined by Ms. Benjamin:

15 Q. From light of the President's question on your role, I would like

16 you to look at 1197 and 1196, numbers 3 and 4 on the list. Documents 1196

17 and 1197. It may be still in front of you. The third and fourth

18 documents on the list.

19 And they both -- they're both orders issued by the municipal

20 civilian protection staff. Agreed? But they're both orders pursuant to

21 an order coming from the commander, Alagic. Would you agree with me if I

22 were to say that your department was in some way subordinated to the army?

23 A. Well, this is how I'd put it: Our commander, Konjevic, attended

24 briefings with Commander Alagic. He was there for the sake of

25 cooperation. Again, I'm referring to the instructions received. But you

Page 11668

1 know, the army follows orders. It was war, and cooperation was

2 established through orders. The presidency issues orders, the war

3 presidency issues orders and would forward these orders to us. It was

4 wartime, and we worked on the basis of orders. And in the case of war in

5 the civilian protection, we also followed orders in spite of the fact that

6 we were a civilian organ. And if there were natural disasters or

7 accidents, we also had to follow orders because that was an emergency

8 situation for the civilian protection staff and for the population. I

9 hope you have understood me. But in my opinion, this was nevertheless a

10 form of cooperation.

11 Q. And one more question: Would you say that you fulfilled the

12 mandate that was given to you to protect persons and property in the area

13 of Travnik, in light of the reports that were shown to you by Judge Swart

14 a while ago? Would you say that your mandate was fulfilled?

15 A. I think we did our work in a very professional way given the

16 circumstances and the conditions under which we had to work. I think we

17 performed our duties, the duties we were assigned by the war presidency

18 and the government in the course of the war because we were a professional

19 organ and our staff members were professionals. And this enabled us to

20 perform our duties in a very satisfactory way.

21 Q. And so that leaves room for reports that may not have been

22 accurate as such at times.

23 A. Well, the people working in the local communes weren't as

24 professional as those working in the municipal civilian protection staff.

25 In the municipal staff, we had very good people. That wasn't the case in

Page 11669

1 the local communes. The people working there weren't as professional as

2 those working at the municipal level. And they hadn't been trained in the

3 way that we had just before the war broke out.

4 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, sir.

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a number of

8 questions.

9 Further re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] First, in relation to the questions put to the

11 witness by my colleague, you said that in the war certain instructions

12 were often issued as orders; however, the civilian protection, whose

13 orders were the only orders and tasks that you had to carry out?

14 A. We primarily carried out the orders of the Travnik war presidency

15 and the orders of the Travnik Municipality government.

16 Q. Thank you. Let me now go back to a question that the

17 Presiding Judge asked you. This has to do with you saying that you were

18 part of the Ministry of Defence and that you were under the authority of

19 the Ministry of Defence. Tell me whether there's a difference between the

20 Ministry of Defence, in your opinion, and the supreme command staff of the

21 BH Army? Are these the same organs or different ones?

22 A. These organs are different.

23 Q. Which of these two organs is a civilian one and which one is part

24 of the military structure?

25 A. The command is a military organ, whereas the Ministry of Defence

Page 11670

1 is a civilian one.

2 Q. With regard to the role of the war presidency, could you tell me

3 whose duties the war presidency took over? They took over the duties of

4 which civilian organ?

5 A. It took over the duties of the Travnik Municipal Assembly.

6 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to have a look at a document referred to

7 by the Chamber. This document is Document Number 21. Could you have a

8 look at the first page that you commented on, and the Judge drew your

9 attention to a word, to the word "imprisoned." "They imprisoned Croats in

10 the village of Mehurici." Who are the people who gave these statements?

11 Tutic, Rasim and Sakic, Mujo. Do you know them or can you see who these

12 people are on the basis of this document?

13 A. These people were drivers who were involved in the transportation

14 of goods from the main warehouse in the municipal civilian protection

15 staff. They transported goods from that staff to the warehouse of a local

16 commune, civilian protection staffs. And Rasim Tutic is a driver I

17 personally know.

18 Q. Thank you. Have a look at the document dated the 23rd of June

19 1993. It's the municipal assembly in Travnik, and the other one has to do

20 with the public security station. Do you know who signed these two

21 documents?

22 A. The commander of the municipal staff of civilian protection,

23 Malenica, Momcilo.

24 Q. Do you know that person?

25 A. He was the commander, and I was the chief in 1992.

Page 11671

1 Q. Tell me, is this a professional person who would know what the

2 status of certain individuals was?

3 A. Yes. I think Malenica was a professional.

4 Q. You would agree with me, although this is a leading question, you

5 would agree that his familiarity with the situation, individuals that are

6 concerned might be different from the knowledge that the drivers had of

7 these persons?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Could we now have a look at documents that Judge Swart

10 referred to. The document was drafted on the 23rd of July. I apologise.

11 I'll just try and find the number. The number of the document is 38.

12 It's a handwritten document, and you have already told us why it is a

13 handwritten document. Tell me, please, in relation to this document, what

14 criteria were in force for your commissions in the field when they drafted

15 reports? What criteria did they have to apply? Did they have to describe

16 the situation that they would observe when visiting the buildings

17 concerned? Did they have to describe the situation they found in the

18 field when the commission went into the field?

19 A. Yes. They had to go into the field, and they had to describe the

20 situation they observed. But they could provide supplementary information

21 from statements by members of local communes and statements made by our

22 agents in the area.

23 Q. Mr. Hockic, if this document is dated the 23rd of July 1993 and

24 describes the situation in various places, does that mean that this is the

25 situation the commission observed on that day in the areas referred to in

Page 11672

1 the document?

2 A. Yes. That's the situation the commission observed on that day in

3 the area it was responsible for.

4 Q. We've also had a look at a document concerning Guca Gora and

5 certain other places visited by the commission. Other information was

6 provided there. You have just told me that the commission, when possible,

7 gathered additional information. Could such information refer to various

8 factors, the time of the damage according to the people providing the

9 information, the cause of the damage? Or did such information have to do

10 with the perpetrators? Or was it possible for members of your commission

11 to gather such information, and if they obtained such information, was it

12 their duty to include this information in their reports?

13 A. They had to gather all the relevant information needed by the

14 municipal civilian protection staff, or rather, by the Municipality of

15 Travnik government.

16 Q. The Trial Chamber also drew your attention to a very important

17 element on the last page of this report, the number of which is 38. In

18 this report and in certain other reports, the following terms appear:

19 "Destroyed" and "set on fire." Could you please explain to all of us, to

20 the Trial Chamber and to all of us, because it's not clear in my mind

21 either, could you tell us whether according to the criteria that you

22 applied it was necessary to have a special list of buildings that had been

23 damaged as a result of fire? If the commission saw that a building was

24 damaged as a result of fire, was it necessary to make a particular note of

25 this?

Page 11673

1 A. Yes. We tried to obtain such information. Some commissions acted

2 in this way; others didn't. I keep mentioning the difficulties that arose

3 as a result of the war.

4 Q. With regard to a building that had been set on fire, if there was

5 no other information and if there was no information as to the cause of

6 the fire, on the basis of your experience at the time, what could have

7 been a cause or what could have been the causes of such buildings burning

8 down?

9 A. Well, this could have been the result of a shell. Someone could

10 have set fire to the building deliberately. The population present in the

11 area could have set fire to a building. Or even the person living in the

12 building could have set fire to the building. I think there were such

13 cases, too, but this is an assumption I'm making.

14 Q. So if I have understood you correctly, I could say that if it says

15 that a building was only set on fire and no other information is provided,

16 in such a case, the causes of the fire could be various?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My colleague has

20 made a suggestion. I don't know how to ask the witness about this unless

21 the interpreters help me. Because apparently in the English text, the

22 word "torched" occurs frequently. So if the interpreters can interpret

23 this word, I would be grateful because it obviously has a different

24 meaning from what the witness just said. And this is why my colleagues

25 have drawn my attention to that fact. I would be grateful if the

Page 11674

1 interpreters could translate the word "torched" into the B/C/S language,

2 because the word "torched" has been used in a number of documents as the

3 translation of the B/C/S word "zapaljen".

4 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I just

5 wanted to say that it would be useful to see whether the word used by the

6 interpreter -- by the witness means what torch means. To torch means to

7 deliberately set fire to something, whereas the witness seems to be saying

8 something else. I would like him to respond.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have understood the semantic

10 problem. It appears that the interpreters have translated what you said

11 into the English word "torch," and this implies that there is the

12 intention to set fire to a building. But when you say that a building was

13 on fire, or caught fire, this doesn't necessarily mean it was a deliberate

14 act. So could you tell us what you mean when you say "a house on fire" in

15 your own language.

16 To help you in French, when you say "a house on fire," this could

17 be the result of a voluntary act or it could happen accidentally.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I accept both interpretations.

19 It could be deliberate, and it might happen involuntarily.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This means that when a document

21 which says "cause of fire unknown," you wouldn't exclude the possibility

22 that this might be intentional or not intentional. It could be both?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

Page 11675

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team?

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions,

4 Mr. President. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, for having come

6 to The Hague. You have answered all the questions put to you by both the

7 parties and by the Judges. And thank you for having helped us understand

8 certain semantic subtleties. I will now ask the usher to escort you out

9 of the courtroom, and we wish you a good trip home.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm addressing the Defence. We

13 have a schedule for next week. It was established yesterday, on the 9th

14 of November, there's an asterisk, which says that this programme is

15 subject to obtaining passports for the witnesses. We won't be sitting on

16 Monday, as you requested. We have Witness 9 on Tuesday, number 59 on

17 Wednesday, 58 on Thursday, and 59 on Friday. Is that correct? I haven't

18 provided the names in case certain of the witnesses will be requesting

19 protective measures.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

21 don't have any other information for the moment. We think that all the

22 witnesses listed will be appearing, and none of them have informed Defence

23 counsel that they will be requesting protective measures. But we'll be

24 sure of this when they appear in The Hague. So I believe that the

25 hearings should proceed in an orderly manner as of Tuesday next week.

Page 11676

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If there is nothing the

2 Prosecution would like to say, I would like to thank everyone present in

3 the courtroom, and I will see you all at the hearing on Tuesday at 9.00.

4 Thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of

7 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.