Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11947

1 Friday, 19 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you please

6 call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Mathias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and Andres Vatter, the case

14 manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Appearances for the

16 Defence.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good

18 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic,

19 Edina Residovic, counsel, and Muriel Cauvin, legal assistant. Thank you

20 very much.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The other Defence

22 team.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and

25 Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant. I believe that we have a problems with

Page 11948

1 the transcript. I don't know whether the others are experiencing the same

2 problem.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I have been told that

4 there are problems with the transcript, but on the laptop, you should be

5 able to follow it.

6 The other Defence team, do you have the transcript on your

7 computers?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we have transcript on our

9 little computer. But I don't know whether the witness's computer is

10 working. I don't know how the witness is going to follow it.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. If the witness can follow

12 English, but if he doesn't, how is that going to be of any use to him?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, he can follow the end of the

14 transcript on the computer.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I have been

16 told that it will appear in a couple of minutes. In the meantime, I'm

17 going to give you two pieces of information. First one concerns the

18 Plenary Sessions of Judges which was originally scheduled for Monday, the

19 6th of December. Yesterday, I learned that the date was changed, and the

20 Plenary Session is going to take place on the 8th of December, which is a

21 Wednesday, which means that on the 8th of December we are not going to be

22 sitting. We are going to experience problems with the witnesses that have

23 been scheduled. There are two ways to solve this. Either you move the

24 witness for another date, or you have the witness wait on the 8th of

25 December. I don't have any other solutions to that problem. What do you

Page 11949

1 think?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we have

3 already asked for the visa to be obtained for the witness for the

4 scheduled date, I believe that it would be best if the witness starts on

5 the 6th, we make a break on the 8th, and we finish with this witness as

6 per our original schedule. Mr. President, we are going to propose the

7 time that we and the other participants might need for the

8 examination-in-chief and the cross-examination in order to be as efficient

9 as possible in the time that you have allocated for this witness. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Prosecution, do

12 you have anything to say about this date, the 8th of December, when we are

13 not going to be sitting and the possible break that we can make in the

14 testimony of this witness? This is a Defence witness, but just for the

15 courtesy, could you please share with us your observations.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. We really take no position

17 with respect to when the witness arrives or any breaks that might be

18 necessary due to the plenary or any other reason. We simply once again

19 reiterate that we will need for purposes of cross-examination the same

20 amount of time that the Defence for Mr. Hadzihasanovic takes in their

21 direct examination.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. The other

23 issue that I would like to raise is the issue of documents which

24 were -- which are contained in this binder. The Prosecution has objected

25 to a number of documents, and yesterday we discussed that and we decided

Page 11950

1 to admit the whole set of these documents, all of them.

2 Could Mr. Registrar give us the numbers for these documents.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 I'm going to try and be as efficient as possible because the

5 transcript doesn't work.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Of course you're going to be

7 efficient.

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first document is DH1086, and

9 the English version is going to be 1097/E; the second document will be

10 1186, and the English version will be 1186/E; and then DH1196, and the

11 English version will be DH1196/E; DH1197, and the English version will be

12 DH1197/E; 1206, and the English version will be 1206/E; DH1207, the

13 English version will be 1207/E; DH1208, and the English version will be

14 1208/E; 1213, the English version 1213/E; 1214, the English version

15 1214/E; DH1220, the English version will be 1220/E; DH1221, and the

16 English version will be 1221/E; DH1225, the English version will be

17 1225/E; DH1233, and the English version will be 1233/E. DH1234, and the

18 English version will be 1234/E; DH1235, and the English version will be

19 1235/E; DH1236, and the English version will be 1236/E; 1240, the English

20 version will be DH1240/E; 1241, and the English version will be 1241/E;

21 DH1247, and the English version will be 1247/E; DH1248, and the English

22 version will be 1248/E; DH1249, and the English version will be 1249/E;

23 DH1252, and the English version will be 1252/E; DH1253, and the English

24 version 1253/E; DH1254, and the English version will be 1254/E; 1256, the

25 English version 1256/E; DH1263, the English version 1263/E; DH1270, and

Page 11951

1 the English version will be 1270/E; DH1271, and the English version will

2 be 1271/E; DH1283, English DH1283/E; the 30th document will be DH1284, and

3 the English version will be 1284/E; 1286, and the English version, 1286/E;

4 DH1302, and the English version will be 1302/E. DH13 -- I apologise.

5 1302/E, that's the English version.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have already said 1302.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, I repeat. DH1303, and the

8 English version will be DH1303/E; DH1306, and the English version 1306/E;

9 DH1307, the English version, 1307/E; DH1325, DH13125/E will be the English

10 version; DH1332, English version 1332/E; 1337 and 1337/E; DH1344, and the

11 English version will be 1344/E;.

12 The 40th document: 1345, and the English version will be

13 DH1345/E; DH1346, and the English version, 1346/E; DH1347, and the English

14 version, 1347/E; DH1348, and the English version will be DH1348/E; DH1352,

15 and the English version will be 1352/E; DH1353, and the English version

16 will be 1353/E; DH1354, and the English version will be 1354/E.

17 And finally, the 40th document: DH1355, and the English version

18 will be DH1355/E. This finishes the list.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. You

20 have indicated the numbers, and I thank you for that. And we have

21 completed this part of the session. We're going to bring the witness into

22 the courtroom. Mr. Usher, can you please bring the witness into the

23 courtroom.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. First of

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Page 11953

1 all, I would like to make sure that you can hear my words in your

2 language. If that is the case, can you please say, "I understand you and

3 I hear you."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I hear you and understand you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called as a

6 Defence witness. Before you make the solemn declaration, I would like to

7 hear your name, your last name, your date of birth, and the place where

8 you were born.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Samir Sefer is my name. I was born

10 on the 1st of April, 1966 in Goles, Travnik Municipality.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Sefer. Do you

12 work? What is your profession at the moment?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Currently, I am a private caterer.

14 I am the owner of two catering establishments.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1992 and 1993,

16 did you work? What was your profession? If you were a soldier, which

17 unit did you belong to and what rank did you have at the time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, before the beginning of war

19 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I was also a private restaurant owner, and I had

20 the same two catering establishments.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993, did you also have

22 these restaurants? Were you also a caterer?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. When the war broke out in

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, at the very beginning I was a member of the

25 village guards which belonged to the Territorial Defence of Travnik. And

Page 11954

1 my attachment was called Karaula. It bore the same name as the place

2 where I resided at the time.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And at that moment, were you a

4 member of an army unit or not?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became a member of the army unit

6 in the spring of 1993. I became a member of the commission attached to

7 the operations group Bosanska Krajina. This was the commission which

8 looked after the prisoners of war and the bodies of the dead soldiers.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Very well. Have you ever testified before an

10 international court or a national court regarding the things that happened

11 in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992 and 1993? Or is this the first time

12 ever that you testified in a court of law?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the first time I have

14 testified in an international court or the national courts in

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Would you

17 please read the solemn declaration the usher will give you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, you may be seated.

21 Mr. Sefer, you have to testify. First you will answer questions

22 put to you by the Defence teams. I'm sure that you have already met with

23 them. They're seated on your left. After that, you are going to answer

24 questions put to you by the representatives of the Prosecution seated to

25 your right. The representatives of the Prosecution will have the same

Page 11955

1 time as the Defence, which means an hour to an hour and a half. After

2 this second stage of your testimony, the Defence teams will be given the

3 opportunity to ask you supplementary questions arising from the questions

4 of the Prosecution. The three Judges seated in front of you may also put

5 questions to you. The Judges prefer to wait until both sides complete

6 their respective examinations.

7 You will maybe see that the two sets of questions differ in their

8 nature. Try to answer as precisely as possible. If you don't know the

9 answer, say so. If the answer seems too complicated, you may always ask

10 the person who has put it to you to rephrase it. And you have to know

11 that we don't have any written documents, and we very much rely on your

12 testimony for the clarification of the events.

13 I have to explain two other issues to you which are very

14 important: First of all, you have taken the solemn declaration to tell

15 the truth, which means you are not going to give us false testimony

16 because this would be a violation of the law and you may be punished for

17 that. And the second issue that I would like to inform you about is that

18 if at any point in time you believe that an answer to any of the questions

19 might incriminate you and be used against you, you may refuse to answer

20 such a question. At that moment, the Chamber may compel you to answer

21 such a question, but they will also guarantee you a sort of immunity.

22 In very general terms, this is how your testimony is going to

23 develop. After an hour and a half, we're going to take a break, which is

24 going to give you an opportunity to take a rest because sometimes it may

25 be tiring to answer all these questions. We will then resume around

Page 11956

1 11.00. Around half past 12.00, we are going to have another technical

2 break. And in theory, if everything goes well, this hearing should be

3 over around quarter to 2.00, and you will be allowed to return home.

4 I'm now going to give the floor to the Defence teams.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sefer.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. In addition to the words of the President which you have just

12 heard, I would like to draw your attention to another thing. The two of

13 us speak the same language, and I'm sure that you will be in a position to

14 answer my questions immediately. However, my questions and your answers

15 have to be interpreted for the Trial Chamber and for everybody in the

16 courtroom. That is why I would kindly ask you to make a little pause

17 between my question and your answer. This will allow the interpreters to

18 interpret your words correctly. Did you understand that?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. You've told us, Mr. Sefer, what you did before the war and what

21 you are doing at the moment. What is your educational background and

22 where did you acquire your education?

23 A. I completed primary school in my native place, in Karaula, where I

24 resided. I completed secondary school, and I graduated as a traffic

25 technician in Travnik. After that, I went to serve in the army, in the

Page 11957

1 JNA. And after the compulsory military service, I enrolled in the school

2 of traffic at the University of Sarajevo. I stayed there for two years.

3 Then I dropped out, and I started running the catering business that I've

4 mentioned.

5 Q. You've just told us that you served in the JNA. Can you please

6 tell me, in which branch of the army did you serve and did you acquire a

7 rank?

8 A. I served in Bela Crkva and in Sabac. I did not have a rank, and I

9 was a car unit. I was a driver, in other words.

10 Q. You've also told us that you became a member of the Bosanska

11 Krajina operations group. After that duty -- or let me first ask you, up

12 to when did you stay in that position? And after that, did you have any

13 other duties in the BiH Army? And thirdly, did you acquire a rank in the

14 BiH Army?

15 A. First of all, I would like to apologise and say that in addition

16 to what I have said, I was also a member of the Territorial Defence. I

17 stood guard in my village at the very beginning of the war. Immediately

18 after the beginning of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was first a member

19 of the state commission for exchange, and then sometime in spring 1993

20 when the Bosanska Krajina operations group was established pursuant to an

21 order of the general staff of the BiH Army for the establishment of

22 commissions for prisoners of war and bodies of the fallen soldiers, this

23 was in April or May 1993, and I was appointed the president of that

24 commission affiliated with the operations group. I stayed in that

25 position sometime up to November 1993. And then I moved to Zenica, and I

Page 11958












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Page 11959

1 became the president of the commission for prisoners of war affiliated

2 with the 3rd Corps. I remained in that position up to the establishment

3 of the 7th Corps. And then I returned to my own place, to Travnik, which

4 was the headquarters of that corps. And that is where I became the

5 president of the commission in charge of the prisoners of war affiliated

6 with the 7th Corps.

7 You've also asked me about my rank. During the war, I did not

8 have a rank. And once the Dayton Accords were signed and the war was

9 over, during the last stages of the war, I was given the rank of second

10 lieutenant.

11 Q. Thank you very much for this very elaborate answer. Let me go

12 back to the beginning of your answer. You said that in 1992, you became a

13 member of the municipal commission for exchange. Could you please tell us

14 how you became a member of that commission, who appointed you as a member

15 of that commission.

16 A. As I've already said at the beginning, after the beginning of war,

17 we started standing guard in the village, and we were members of the

18 Travnik Territorial Defence. At the same time as we were standing guard

19 during the night, during the day, I would stay in my restaurant in

20 Travnik. It was a fast food restaurant. Very often, I had police

21 officers, Mr. Beba Salko, and Enez Hadzimovic. I knew that they worked in

22 the police and the police building was very close. I got rather close

23 with them --

24 Q. I would just like to interrupt for a moment. Maybe this is a bit

25 too wide. You've mentioned Mr. Salko Beba. Did he have any connection

Page 11960

1 with the exchange commission and your engagement in that commission?

2 A. Yes, Mr. Beba Salko was the president of the municipal state

3 commission for exchanges, and he appointed me as a member of that

4 commission.

5 Q. Mr. Sefer, do you remember the first task you had when involved in

6 these exchanges?

7 A. First task -- first duties I had to perform were those of a lorry

8 driver. Exchanges of dead MUP members and of television employees, the

9 employees of the BH TV had to be exchanged. These were workers who

10 secured the relay on Vlasic. They had been killed by the JNA. And I went

11 to collect the bodies of these men who had been killed. I went there as a

12 lorry driver.

13 Q. Who was the president of that state commission for exchanges in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time?

15 A. As far as I remember, when the Presidency of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina issued the order to establish such a state commission for

17 exchanges, I think that Esad Muhibic was the first president. And shortly

18 afterwards, Amor Masovic replaced him.

19 Q. Do you remember who the president was and who the members of your

20 municipal commission were?

21 A. Well, I just said the president of the municipal commission was

22 Mr. Beba Salko. In addition to myself, Mr. Jasenko Eminovic was a member

23 of the commission, he was a reserve police officer. And then there was

24 Dr. Sakib Alibegovic, a psychiatrist. Then there was Bajo Zvonko, and

25 Tomo Rajic who represented the HDZ.

Page 11961

1 Q. Mr. Sefer, I want to continue to ask you questions about 1992.

2 Tell me: How did you perform those duties, and how much work did the

3 commission during that period?

4 A. Well, Beba Salko was the key figure as the president. And we

5 carried out the following tasks together with him: We were involved in

6 exchange of prisoners and the bodies of those who had been killed, and we

7 also had to receive refugees who had arrived from Bosanska Krajina in

8 Travnik during that period.

9 Q. If you go back to that period up until the time you joined the

10 Bosanska Krajina operations group, could you tell us how many refugees

11 arrived in the Travnik area?

12 A. At the time, there were a lot of refugees arriving from

13 Bosanska Krajina. And soon, Jajce fell as well as my place, Karaula. So

14 during that period, we received between one hundred and fifty and two

15 hundred thousand refugees.

16 Q. Did you have any tasks in the commission with regard to these

17 refugees and these people who had been expelled?

18 A. Well, I was involved in receiving those refugees.

19 Eminovic Jasenko worked with me. But as the number of these refugees

20 grew, Jasenko would sometimes be involved in other activities. Or rather,

21 he would remain in the office where he took various statements and

22 interviewed people together with Dr. Salko. And I and other members would

23 go into the field, go to the places where these people had been left by

24 the Serbian aggressor, and these people were then sent off towards Travnik

25 or towards the free territory by the Serbian aggressor.

Page 11962

1 Q. Tell me, was movement difficult for those refugees and for members

2 of the commission? What sort of work did you have to do? What sort of

3 problems did you have to confront?

4 A. Well, this is when I first felt that we were really in a state of

5 war because at the very beginning when the war had just broken out, it

6 seemed to be a game. However, when I saw all these people arriving, these

7 people who had suffered so much, people who were wandering aimlessly who

8 didn't know which routes to take because they had been abandoned in the

9 evening at about 2300 or 2400 hours, well, we would come across old people

10 who had been sitting there for three or four days and were unable to

11 continue their journey. So it was a traumatic experience for me, and I am

12 still under the impression of this experience to this very day.

13 Q. Thank you. In addition to the duties you performed in the state

14 commission, before you joined the Bosanska Krajina operations group, did

15 you become involved in any other duties? Did you carry out any other

16 tasks for Mr. Beba in your capacity as a member of the commission?

17 A. In addition to my active participation in the municipal

18 commission, I was actively involved in all the negotiations conducted by

19 Mr. Beba with the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressor. My role in those

20 negotiations was to guard the vehicles, to talk to Serbian soldiers, to

21 survey the surroundings. After exchanges, I would speak to Mr. Beba and

22 provide him with the information I had obtained while spending time up

23 there. This was interesting for him. So after each exchange, I had to

24 draft an official report for him in which I was to tell him whether I had

25 observed anything that might be of interest to him.

Page 11963

1 Q. As part of the exchange of prisoners and when receiving these

2 people, these refugees, when involved in these tasks, did you cooperate

3 with any international institutions or forces in order to carry out the

4 exchanges as well as possible?

5 A. Well, what did these negotiations look like? At the very

6 beginning, we would cross over to the Serbian side and go deep into their

7 territory. We always insisted on UNPROFOR presence. We always insisted

8 on the International Red Cross being present. However, usually, they

9 would not allow them to cross over into their territory. So usually, we

10 crossed over into their territory on our own.

11 Q. In the course of the exchanges themselves, would these exchanges

12 take place at the time of combat operations, or did any international

13 organisations assume the responsibility of arranging a cease-fire?

14 A. Well, this was one of the reasons for which we insisted on

15 UNPROFOR teams or Red Cross teams being present whenever we were involved

16 in negotiations because they could provide a guarantee for obtaining a

17 cease-fire.

18 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Presiding Judge, you

19 said that in spring, in April or in May, you became the president of the

20 commission in the operations group Bosanska Krajina. Tell me, what sort

21 of tasks did that commission have?

22 A. Yes, I can't remember when it was exactly. It was in the spring,

23 April or May 1993. That was when I was appointed as president of the

24 commission for prisoners of war and for men who had been killed. We were

25 involved in taking care of prisoners of war and taking care of members of

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Page 11965

1 the BH Army who had been killed.

2 Q. At that time, was it your duty to establish contact with the

3 Serbian forces, or were there requests for negotiations with the forces

4 who were becoming Bosnia and Herzegovina's new enemy?

5 A. Well, yes, I still maintained regular contact with the Serbian and

6 Montenegrin aggressor. And during that period, when these events were

7 unfolding in the Lasva Valley, on the Serbian side, there was an UNHCR

8 convoy, and there was an International Red Cross convoy that appeared.

9 And I was involved in taking charge of the convoy arriving from the

10 Serbian territory. I had to escort the convoy through our territory, and

11 then return the convoy to Serbian territory.

12 As the conflict continued, it became necessary to establish

13 contact with HVO representatives because we were being told that our

14 combatants were being imprisoned and that the bodies of our men would

15 remain in their territory.

16 Q. Where were the premises of your municipal commission for exchange?

17 A. The premises were in an office near Travnik Municipality.

18 Q. When you assumed your new duties, in which part of Travnik did you

19 continue to work?

20 A. As the new president for the commission of prisoners of war in the

21 Bosanska Krajina operations group, my office remained in the same place,

22 in the same premises used by the municipal commission. And we continued

23 to cooperate.

24 Q. Mr. Sefer, you have just answered my next question. Was there

25 close cooperation with the municipal state commission when you performed

Page 11966

1 your tasks?

2 A. Yes. We cooperated very closely.

3 Q. Tell me, at the time, were your tasks divided when communicating

4 with certain parts of the other armies that you had to cooperate with?

5 A. I apologise. I didn't quite understand that.

6 Q. I'd like to know whether you were involved in all forms of

7 communication with the Serbian Army and the HVO or were there -- was there

8 certain division of work? Were some people involved in certain tasks and

9 others in other tasks?

10 A. Well, we worked together. During the initial period we hadn't yet

11 established contact with the HVO commission so we acted together in

12 negotiations with the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressor. It wasn't a

13 matter of prestige. We were pursuing our own interests. But on the

14 whole, I was more often than not interested in the combatants of the BH

15 Army alone.

16 Q. Mr. Sefer, since you have mentioned some names already, tell me

17 whether at any point in time in 1993, Beba Salko assumed other duties?

18 And in particular, I would like to know whether he assumed any duties in

19 the Bosanska Krajina operations group?

20 A. Well, I'll try to go back to that period. It could have been in

21 June. That was when Beba Salko was appointed as the assistant commander

22 for security in the Bosanska Krajina operations group.

23 Q. Do you know which tasks the member of the state commission,

24 Jasenko was involved in during that period of time?

25 A. Well, Jasenko Eminovic continued to work in the municipal

Page 11967

1 commission as a member of the reserve police force in Travnik. He

2 remained a member. Sometimes he went to help Salko. This involved

3 computer work, drafting documents, et cetera. But on the whole, he was

4 with me in the commission for exchanges.

5 Q. Tell me, Mr. Sefer, in addition to the duties you had when

6 involved in exchanges, were you assigned duties that involved providing

7 security, for example, related to BH Army members?

8 A. Yes. During the first few days of the conflict with the HVO, I

9 interviewed BH Army members who had committed offences of various kinds.

10 I was involved in other cases, too, and I would take statements from these

11 men.

12 Q. Mr. Sefer, on the whole, can you tell me about the kind of

13 offences the BH Army members committed most frequently?

14 A. Well, usually they refused to obey orders. There were -- there

15 was looting. They would break into abandoned houses, flats. So those are

16 the sort of things they did.

17 Q. Mr. Sefer, for how long were you involved in these matters?

18 A. Well, very briefly, because I found this work very difficult,

19 especially because I knew all these men. These men simply couldn't

20 understand that an army could prosecute them for stealing Croatian

21 property, et cetera. So it was hard for me to walk around the town. I

22 was quite simply afraid. I was in a difficult position, and I could

23 hardly wait to abandon those duties and quickly requested -- I soon

24 requested Mr. Beba to relieve of those duties which he did.

25 Q. During that brief period of time when you were involved in

Page 11968

1 investigating combatants, do you remember how many combatants were the

2 subject of such investigations?

3 A. I can't remember exactly. But there were scores of them. Every

4 day, I would take over 10 statements. And there are many such cases but I

5 cannot remember the exact number because I never went to the prison. I

6 didn't see them there. I simply had to take statements from these men.

7 Q. You just mentioned the prison. Were these army members detained?

8 Were disciplinary measures taken against them? Were prosecutions

9 instituted?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Let's now move on to another subject, because I think you have

12 answered all the questions that I wanted to put to you.

13 A minute ago, you said that you had no contact with the HVO

14 commission. Nevertheless, in June, as the president of the commission for

15 prisoners of war for the BH Army, did you find out about a large-scale

16 exchange, or does the name humanitarian commission mean anything to you?

17 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that case. It involved an exchange

18 arranged by the humanitarian commission. I don't know who the members of

19 the commission were. I know that the order was that all prisoners and

20 civilians should be released. All of those prisoners and civilians who

21 wanted to move over to the Croatian side. I was present during the

22 exchange when we let the civilians and prisoners that we had move over to

23 the Croatian side. I also heard that all the prisoners who were in the KP

24 Dom in Zenica, the penal and correctional facility in Zenica were

25 released. However, experience subsequently demonstrated that many of our

Page 11969

1 combatants who were in prisons with the HVO had been hidden, and they

2 weren't released. So I had many difficulties as a result when carrying

3 out my duties, since I didn't have any prisoners.

4 Q. Mr. Sefer, tell me, were you issued an order stating where these

5 prisoners should be sent, the prisoners who might have been captured in

6 the course of combat by the BH Army?

7 A. Yes. The order was that as soon as they were imprisoned, all

8 prisoners should be sent to the Zenica KP Dom, penal and correctional

9 facility.

10 Q. Do you know if there were criminal proceedings instituted against

11 any of the prisoners? And if so, what would happen to these prisoners?

12 A. Yes. Some prisoners were prosecuted. I know that they were

13 released and that the municipal court in Travnik would assume

14 responsibility for them.

15 Q. Mr. Sefer, tell me, when you as the president of the commission of

16 the operations group first established contact with the HVO, tell me, when

17 did you first establish contact in that capacity in the HVO and how did

18 you do it?

19 A. In spite of the pressure I exerted on the International Red Cross

20 and UNPROFOR and in spite of my request for them to organise a meeting

21 with representatives from the Croatian side, such a meeting never

22 materialised. Quite by chance, I found out through a radio -- that a

23 radiolink was established with Vitez, between Travnik and Vitez. I went

24 to that place and I contacted the person who worked on that radio set in

25 Vitez, and I asked him to provide me or find me an HVO member who could

Page 11970












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Page 11971

1 talk to me about exchanges of prisoners of war and about exchanges of the

2 bodies of killed men.

3 Q. Do you remember when this happened? When did you first have

4 contact with the other side with regard to such exchanges?

5 A. Well, the exact period, I can't really remember the exact period.

6 Perhaps it was in August or September. I'm really not sure though.

7 However, I do know that the first time I established contact, it was with

8 Zarko Andric, also known as Zuti. He was looking for a relative of

9 his -- rather, he was looking for his brother's son. He was looking for

10 his body which had remained somewhere in the area of Velika Bukovica. All

11 he was interested in was finding that body. And when we first spoke to

12 each other, he offered me money for me to hand over that body to him. I

13 refused to cooperate in this way. I told him that he would be given the

14 body if I found it, and I said that there would be no conditions.

15 However, I said that if I did this, I also wanted an exchange of men who

16 were still alive, prisoners of war.

17 Q. Mr. Sefer, after you had established initial contact, did you

18 exchange the body of Mr. Andric's relative, and after doing that, was

19 there any cooperation or attempted cooperation with the commission for

20 exchanges on the HVO side?

21 A. Well, after we had come to this arrangement, after I'd come to

22 this arrangement with Mr. Zuti, I went into the field. I managed to find

23 Andric Dominko's body, and I arranged for an exchange with Zuti. However,

24 a difficult situation arose. Mr. Zuti didn't want to go to the area

25 between the lines. He wanted me to go down. I didn't want to. We

Page 11972

1 managed to reach an agreement according to which the prisoners I were

2 requesting would be placed in a van by him. He would get someone to drive

3 the van to our territory, and I was then to send his dead relative and the

4 other prisoners whom I had included in the exchange of HVO prisoners.

5 This is how the first exchange took place.

6 Q. Mr. Sefer, tell me whether you later met with the commission, and

7 did you start holding meetings in order to attempt to obtain exchanges of

8 prisoners or dead BH Army members held by the HVO and dead HVO members

9 held by the BH Army?

10 A. After those first talks, I used the same radiolink to talk to

11 Zarko Andric, aka Zuti. We arranged another exchange of men who had been

12 killed. However, since this concerned men who had been killed, we weren't

13 able to carry out the exchange in the same manner that we had carried the

14 first exchange out. We had to find another means. We agreed that I

15 should move over into their territory and to carry out the exchange. I

16 informed the International Red Cross and UNPROFOR about our agreement and

17 about the day on which we would carry out this exchange, and I asked them

18 to be present during the exchange because this was to be the first time I

19 was going to cross over to HVO territory.

20 However, just before the exchange, the International Red Cross and

21 UNPROFOR promised to attend the exchange. However, just before the

22 exchange, perhaps an hour before the exchange, they informed me that they

23 couldn't attend the exchange. They said that the HVO wouldn't allow it.

24 And since my safety wasn't guaranteed, they said I should abandon this

25 attempt. However, at the time I was really determined to carry out the

Page 11973

1 exchange, so I got hold of a lorry, put the dead bodies into the lorry and

2 went deep into HVO territory. Perhaps 10 kilometres into HVO territory.

3 And that's the first time I met Zuti. And in a cafe at Kajic's,

4 he said that HVO representatives were waiting for me. He said, "This

5 isn't a job for me, I don't like to do this, but there are people who will

6 negotiate with you." And when I entered that cafe, that was the first

7 time I met individual members of the HVO commission with whom I continued

8 to cooperate.

9 Q. Mr. Sefer, tell me, you've told me how you established contact

10 with the HVO. But who did you rely on and who did you cooperate in

11 subordinate units in order to obtain information on the identity of

12 prisoners and fallen soldiers?

13 A. Well, in the corps, the department for morale was concerned with

14 prisoners of war and killed army members. And assistant commanders for

15 morale, the people with whom I established contact.

16 Q. Once you established contact with the HVO commission in autumn

17 1993, did you manage to carry out any other exchanges with the HVO?

18 A. My first contact with the HVO commission was not successful. All

19 of my requests, all of my demands were denied by the HVO commission. They

20 said they didn't know these men, and whatever name I mentioned, they said

21 they didn't have a clue who that was. And that first meeting showed me

22 and explained to me why representatives of the international organisations

23 did not want to be present at that meeting. When I returned from that

24 meeting, as I was getting into the car, Zuti approached me, said good-bye

25 to me. And as he was saying his good-byes, he said on Kaonik there are

Page 11974

1 seven prisoners of war from your side, and the others that you're looking

2 for, they were killed in the cinema hall in Vitez. And the HVO are in

3 possession of the photos of their dead bodies.

4 Q. After that, were there exchanges in spite of all that? What

5 problems did you encounter when you were looking for prisoners of war?

6 Were you aware of the fact that members of the BH Army were killed once

7 they were taken prisoner?

8 A. After my first meeting with the HVO commission, the International

9 Red Cross and UNPROFOR provided for another meeting in the UNPROFOR base

10 in Bila, in Vitez. At that meeting, we managed to agree on a small-scale

11 exchange. However, our relationship soon deteriorated because the HVO had

12 captured four of our members from Preocica and Vitez. And that same

13 night, it showed them on TV as being interviewed. However, in my next

14 contact with the HVO commission, they told me that those men had never

15 been captured alive, that they had been killed in combat.

16 Later on, I managed to obtain their bodies during an exchange.

17 Representatives of the International Red Cross and European Monitors were

18 present during that exchange. We took photos of those dead bodies which

19 were completely massacred and mutilated.

20 And how shall I put it? When the exchange was taking place, a

21 policeman who was providing security and who was a member of the HVO put

22 something in my pocket and told me, "don't look at it now. Look at it

23 when you return to your base." When I left their territory, as I left

24 no-man's-land and I arrived at our territory, I opened that piece of

25 paper, and there was an eye wrapped in that piece of paper. I showed it

Page 11975

1 to the European Monitors. Later on, I learned that a message was heard on

2 the radio: "This is Hurim's eye. We're not bad people. We didn't want

3 to keep the eye of the dead man."

4 Q. Mr. Sefer, in autumn 1993, did you ever learn that several people,

5 several prominent Croats had been taken away from Travnik? If you ever

6 learned, that who did you learn that from and how?

7 A. I learned about this incident. It was a terrible incident that

8 shook the entire city because the people who were taken away were very

9 popular and very well-known in the town. The first time I learned about

10 that case was from Mrs. Ljilja Popovic who came to the commission in order

11 to report the disappearance of her husband.

12 Q. Did Mrs. Popovic talk to you and what did you do on the following

13 day? What did you hear on the following day? First of all, can you

14 remember when this took place?

15 A. I believe that this was some time in October, mid-October, towards

16 the end of October 1993. When she came to the commission, she didn't talk

17 to me personally. We referred her to Mr. Beba Salko because he was in

18 charge of civilians. That's why we sent her to his office.

19 Q. During those days, did you find out who had taken these people

20 away? What measures were taken within the operations group?

21 A. I don't know exactly when, but very soon there were rumours in

22 town that this had been done by the Mujahedin. However, I never knew

23 exactly what had happened. I know that Mr. Beba was particularly engaged

24 in solving this case, and I know that the command asked me to do something

25 about it because later on it was heard that some Mujahedins had allegedly

Page 11976












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Page 11977

1 been captured by the HVO, and that's why the Mujahedin had captured

2 Croats, because they wanted to exchange those Croats for the people who

3 had allegedly been captured by the HVO. The pressure put on us by the

4 commanders and the civilians was huge. That's why we tried to solve this

5 case. I tried to establish contact with the HVO commission to find out

6 what had happened and to see whether indeed Mujahedin had been captured.

7 The answer that I received from the HVO was that they did not have

8 any such people, any such dead bodies. So I was not in a position to help

9 resolve that case.

10 Q. Who was it who continued dealing with this issue? Who persisted

11 in the attempt to liberate these people from the Mujahedins' hands?

12 A. It was Mr. Beba Salko.

13 Q. Did any international factors in Travnik get engaged and involved?

14 Did they try to put pressure on the HVO and the mujahedin in order to have

15 these people from Travnik released?

16 A. Yes. It was the International Red Cross who got involved. There

17 was a young woman whose name I believe was Mary. I can't remember her

18 last name. I know that she stayed in Zenica, and she was in charge of

19 Travnik.

20 Q. Did you ever learn what happened to these people, to these Croats

21 who had been taken away from Travnik? Were they ever set free, and when

22 did you learn that?

23 A. During that period of time, from the moment they were taken away

24 from Travnik I was appointed the president of the commission with the

25 3rd Corps. This was in November 1993. That's when I left for Zenica.

Page 11978

1 Later on, maybe in January or in February of the following year, I learned

2 that these people had been released.

3 Q. While you were in Travnik and while you were following those

4 efforts and in a certain way participated in the efforts to have your

5 neighbours set free, did you know at the time whether these people were

6 alive or maybe did you have any information that something might have

7 happened to them?

8 A. No, I didn't have any such information.

9 Q. Mr. Sefer, I'm going to ask you as follows: In 1993, from the

10 moment you became the president of the commission affiliated with the

11 operations group until the moment of your departure in November, did you

12 ever exchange a foreigner, especially an Arab or a Mujahedin?

13 A. No, no, I didn't. Never. I can't remember whether there were any

14 dead bodies of that sort. However, those dead bodies that were exchanged

15 were very -- had been dead for a long time. It was very difficult to

16 recognise their facial features. But I don't remember ever having

17 exchanged a foreigner.

18 Q. Mr. Sefer, in June, did you go to Guca Gora? If that was the

19 case, who did you go with and why?

20 A. As I've already explained, I was involved in taking statements

21 from the BH Army members. And most of that took place in the office of

22 the commission for exchanges. On one occasion during that period of time

23 when I visited Guca Gora, Mr. Beba arrived and told me and Jasenko: "It

24 seems that the monastery in Guca Gora had been set on fire. Let's go and

25 see whether this information is correct." We heard it on the Serbian

Page 11979

1 radio. Since the access to Guca Gora was very difficult because this part

2 of the road was being shelled by the HVO, he told me, "Cento - this was my

3 nickname - Cento, you drive. You're the best driver. Let's get into the

4 Golf and let's go and see what had happened." This is when we went to

5 Guca Gora.

6 Q. When you arrived up there what did you see? Had the monastery

7 been set on fire?

8 A. No. We only noticed the military police, members of the local

9 brigade which was the 306th Brigade, which provided security for the

10 monastery. We parked in front of the monastery. We entered the

11 monastery, and we saw that there were things scattered all over the

12 monastery. You could see bulletholes on the walls, and you could see some

13 Arabic inscriptions on the walls as well.

14 Q. Were there any other persons save for the military policemen? Did

15 you see any priests, journalists, or anybody else?

16 A. As far as I remember, there was somebody there. I don't know

17 whether he stayed there. But he was there. He was a priest. And there

18 were some journalists. I did not get any closer. I stayed at the very

19 entrance to the monastery on the doorstep. And Mr. Beba spoke with this

20 priest who he found there.

21 Q. Mr. Sefer, did you do something when you saw the state of disarray

22 in the monastery and the inscriptions on the walls?

23 A. Yes. After the conversation that Mr. Beba had with the priest and

24 the people who were standing there, he approached me and Jasenko and he

25 said, "There is some white paint in the Golf. These paint over these

Page 11980

1 inscriptions." I went back to the car. I took this paint. This paint

2 was there because maybe a day or two days before, we had painted the walls

3 of our office at the commission. We drew the image of a white UNPROFOR

4 jeep, and we did it so that people could recognise us. That's why I had

5 the paint. I took it from the car. I brought it to the monastery, and we

6 painted over all of these inscriptions that we found in the monastery.

7 Q. Did members of the 306th Brigade tell you who had damaged the

8 monastery and who had put those inscriptions on the walls?

9 A. No, they didn't tell me personally. Later on, I heard in my

10 conversation with Beba while travelling back in the car that this had been

11 done by the Mujahedin.

12 Q. Bearing in mind your job and what you did at the time, did you

13 continue dealing with this issue? Did you go back to Guca Gora?

14 A. No, I didn't go back to Guca Gora. This was the only time.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This

16 completes my examination-in-chief of this witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to ask

18 the other Defence team if they have any questions.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We don't

20 have any questions.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is quarter past 10.00. Maybe

22 it would be a good thing to make a break now, or if the Prosecution should

23 wish to start, we can start now. What do you want to do? Make a break or

24 start now?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I would propose that we

Page 11981

1 do, in fact, take the break, and that way I can streamline the

2 cross-examination and ensure that there's enough time for the Chamber to

3 ask any questions that they may have.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to take a break.

5 It is quarter past 10.00. We shall resume at quarter to 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

11 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Daryl Mundis, and along with my

12 colleagues here today, we represent the Prosecution in this case. I have

13 some questions for you this morning, and I just want to ensure at the

14 outset that you understand that my purpose here is not to confuse you in

15 any way. And as a result, if there are any questions that you don't

16 understand, I would ask you, please, just to tell me that, and I will

17 either clarify the question or rephrase the question so that you do

18 understand.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned this morning in response to a question

21 from my learned colleague from the Defence that at some point in June

22 1993, Mr. Beba was appointed assistant commander for security of the

23 operation group Bosanska Krajina. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To the best of your recollection, did Mr. Beba hold any other

Page 11982

1 position with operation group Bosanska Krajina prior to June 1993, leaving

2 aside, of course, the commission?

3 A. I don't remember. Up to the moment he was appointed the assistant

4 commander for security in the operations group, the only job he had was in

5 the municipal commission for exchanges, and I also know that he was a

6 policeman. But that's all I know.

7 Q. Okay. Let me, then, turn to your role during the period in June

8 1993. I take it from your answers earlier with respect to your

9 involvement in some investigations that you, in fact, followed Mr. Beba to

10 the security department of the operations group Bosanska Krajina in June

11 1993. Would that be correct?

12 A. No, no, it wouldn't. My only job was in the commission for the

13 exchanges of prisoners of war. I said that only from time to time on a

14 couple of occasions only I went to help take statements from those members

15 of the BiH Army for whom it was suspected that they had committed some

16 sort of a crime or offence.

17 Q. Just so we're clear, then, sir, at no point in June 1993 were you

18 affiliated with the security department of the operations group

19 Bosanska Krajina?

20 A. No, no, I wasn't.

21 Q. You weren't a security officer in OG Bosanska Krajina in June

22 1993?

23 A. I was not.

24 Q. Let me ask you, you said that on occasion, you were asked to help

25 take statements from those members of the BiH Army for whom it was

Page 11983

1 suspected that they had committed some sort of a crime or offence. Do you

2 recall the first time you were asked to assist in this respect?

3 Approximately what time period or date?

4 A. I can't remember the exact date. I remember that it was at the

5 very beginning of the conflict with the HVO. As soon as Mr. Beba was

6 appointed the assistant commander for security in the OG, myself and

7 Jasenko started helping him. However, Jasenko was the one who helped him

8 more often. I helped him only on a couple of occasions. There were quite

9 a huge number of BiH Army members who were taken into custody and

10 statements had to be taken from them.

11 Q. You said it was shortly after Mr. Beba was appointed assistant

12 commander. Do you recall the date that that appointment took place?

13 A. Like I've already said, I can't remember the exact date, but I

14 believe that it was in June 1993.

15 Q. And do you recall -- you said you assisted him only on a couple of

16 occasions. Do you recall the last time that you assisted him with respect

17 to taking statements from ABiH soldiers suspected of committing offences?

18 A. This assistance could not have lasted more than a week or ten

19 days. Due to a large influx of refugees from Bosanska Krajina, I had to

20 drop that and I had to go back to my old job and look after all of these

21 refugees from Bosanska Krajina.

22 Q. Okay. So I take it, then, sir, that these couple of occasions

23 where you assisted Mr. Beba in this respect was sometime during the month

24 of June 1993? And that's about all you can recall at this point about the

25 time period?

Page 11984

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, do you recall approximately how many ABiH soldiers who were

3 suspected of committing crimes you spoke to during this period in June

4 1993?

5 A. A huge number. Every day, I would take anything between five and

6 ten statements. And this lasted throughout the entire week while I was

7 there assisting Mr. Beba.

8 Q. Okay. So you're telling us now that you spent an entire week

9 taking statements from these ABiH soldiers who were suspected of

10 committing crimes?

11 A. It wouldn't take a whole day, but every day I would go there to

12 take statements because ABiH Army members were being taken into constant

13 custody, all the time.

14 Q. Now, sir, if you took between five and ten statements over a

15 one-week period, can you estimate how many statements you might have taken

16 from these soldiers?

17 A. Maybe 30 or so.

18 Q. You also said in response to questions earlier this morning that

19 you - and this is at page 18, line 22 - you said "I knew these men." Do

20 you recall the names of any of the soldiers suspected of committing crimes

21 that you interviewed during the month of June 1993?

22 A. Yes. Perhaps I can remember a couple of names. Perhaps I can't

23 remember the exact names. I know someone called Face. His real name was

24 Fatmir Smajlovic. I know Goran Mevludin, aka Mevko. Mostly, these were

25 familiar individuals, but I can't exactly remember the names of the men

Page 11985

1 concerned.

2 Q. Sir, you also told us or you gave us two examples of the types of

3 offences that you were questioning individuals about during the month of

4 June 1993. You mentioned on page 18, about line 11, looting and refusal

5 to obey orders.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember any other offences for which you questioned ABiH

8 soldiers during the month of June 1993?

9 A. Well, since I mentioned these two individuals whom I remember,

10 because I knew them well before the war, for example, Fatmir Smajlovic,

11 Face, entered an abandoned Croatian flat. I don't know whether you're

12 aware of this, but in part of the town of Travnik, most of the Croatian

13 population, in agreement with the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressor, moved

14 over to the Serbian side when the conflict with the HVO broke out. And a

15 lot of their flats were abandoned. And in all these cases when I took

16 statements from these men, the offences were related to breaking into

17 these flats without authorisation, and the offences also involved the

18 looting of these flats.

19 Q. And these flats -- these looting incidents that you're telling us

20 about all concerned property in the town of Travnik. Is that right?

21 A. In the town of Travnik and its surroundings.

22 Q. Can you give me some examples of looting incidents from the

23 surrounding area of Travnik that you questioned ABiH soldiers about during

24 June 1993?

25 A. I can't exactly remember the number of such cases there were. But

Page 11986

1 I know that houses in Ovcarevo and Paklarevo were broken into. These were

2 villages where the Croatian population was in the majority. And they had

3 left these villages and crossed over to the Serbian side.

4 Q. Okay. Other than these incidents that you've told us about just

5 now, do you recall any other incidents where you interviewed ABiH soldiers

6 suspected of committing any other offence?

7 A. As I said, when I took statements from these men, and the

8 statements mostly concerned the looting of abandoned flats and houses and

9 breaking into those abandoned flats and houses without the authorisation

10 of the proper authorities.

11 Q. Now, sir, I believe you told us earlier that when you were with

12 the municipal commission, that your office was in Travnik, and I believe

13 you said during or near the municipal building in Travnik. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. During the time -- can you tell us approximately the time frame or

17 the range of approximate dates when you worked out of that office.

18 A. I started working in that office in June 1992 as a member of the

19 municipal commission for exchanges. I remained there until I was

20 appointed as the president of the commission for prisoners of war and for

21 men who had been killed within the 3rd Corps. This was around November in

22 1993. That's when I moved to the corps command in Zenica.

23 Q. During the period from November 1992 until November 1993, were you

24 aware of which units of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH were stationed in

25 Travnik?

Page 11987

1 A. No. Because I didn't know much about these military matters. I

2 had information on our local brigades from Travnik, but I didn't know much

3 about these other matters.

4 Q. When you say "our local brigades from Travnik" can you tell us

5 what you mean by that? What were the local brigades from Travnik?

6 A. Well, I know for sure that in Travnik, there was the

7 312th Motorised Brigade because in that area we would move towards the

8 Serbian and Montenegrin aggressor, and these men were from the

9 312th Brigade.

10 Q. Any other brigades from Travnik?

11 A. All I know is that occasionally, the 17th Krajina Brigade was

12 present in the area. I don't know whether they had their command there or

13 not, but they were present in the area.

14 Q. Sir, do you know if there was a battalion of the 7th Muslim

15 Mountain Brigade in Travnik during that time period?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Do you know, sir, what unit or units of the ABiH 3rd Corps were in

18 the former JNA barracks in Travnik during this time period?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Let me ask you a few questions, sir, about your work with the

21 municipal exchange commission. As part of your responsibilities with that

22 commission, was it your job to be familiar with which soldiers were being

23 detained by the ABiH and at what locations so that you could facilitate

24 the exchange of these prisoners?

25 A. During the period you mentioned, I was only a member of the

Page 11988

1 municipal commission for exchanges. As far as the negotiations and

2 discussions with the other side are concerned and as far as the prisoners

3 we had, well, Mr. Beba was familiar with these matters. At the time, I

4 was just a driver and an assistant.

5 Q. Okay. Just so that we're clear, then, sir, part of your

6 responsibilities -- or your responsibilities did not include having or

7 accumulating information as to the identities, number of detained HVO

8 soldiers, and the locations of these detained HVO soldiers?

9 A. It was -- I only became involved in these matters when I became

10 responsible for the commission for taking care of prisoners of war within

11 the Bosanska Krajina operations group.

12 Q. Okay. Let's talk about that period of time, then, sir. That

13 was -- can you refresh our recollection as to the approximate date when

14 you assumed that responsibility.

15 A. I assumed those responsibility in April or May 1993. I don't know

16 the exact date.

17 Q. Okay. And from April or May 1993 until the time when you began

18 working for the 3rd Corps commission on exchange, did your

19 responsibilities include accumulating information about detained soldiers

20 of the HVO, their names, and where they were being held by various units

21 of the ABiH?

22 A. I did have to know which Croatian prisoners we had in order to be

23 able to negotiate with the HVO and in order to be able to ask them for

24 BiH Army prisoners. Since I had received such orders, I knew that all

25 Croatian prisoners weren't being kept in units. It was through the

Page 11989

1 department for morale in the corps that I obtained lists of imprisoned

2 Croats who were soon transferred to the Zenica KP Dom after they had been

3 captured.

4 Q. Let me ask you a follow-on questions. You told us it was the

5 corps department of morale that provided you with the list of imprisoned

6 Croats?

7 A. Yes. I've already mentioned the structure of the commission. I

8 said that assistant commanders for morale in brigades were with me, and

9 there was the department for morale within the corps. And I established

10 contact in the corps through Mrs. Emira Bolic who was also president at

11 the time for the commission of prisoners of war in the 3rd Corps.

12 Q. Sir, at what point in time did you begin receiving information

13 from the morale department of the corps concerning detained HVO soldiers?

14 A. Well, I was always receiving information. When a Croatian soldier

15 was captured, I would be informed that he was being detained. At the same

16 time, I received requests according to which I was to find out where

17 captured members of the BH Army were held.

18 Q. So this would date back from the time period when in April and May

19 of 1993 when you were responsible for the exchange commission of the OG

20 Bosanska Krajina? At that point in time, you were already receiving

21 information from the corps?

22 A. Yes. From the time I was appointed as president of the commission

23 in the Bosanska Krajina operations group, from that time onwards, I was in

24 contact with the president for the commission for prisoners of war in the

25 3rd Corps, Mrs. Emira Bolic.

Page 11990

1 Q. And you also mentioned the assistant commander for morale. Did

2 that individual play a role in providing you with this information as to

3 detained HVO soldiers?

4 A. On the whole, these assistant commanders in units provided me with

5 information on captured members of the BiH Army.

6 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, sir. When I mentioned the assistant commander

7 for morale, I meant the 3rd Corps assistant commander for morale. Was

8 that individual providing you with information on detained HVO soldiers

9 who were being held by ABiH 3rd Corps units from the period April-May 1993

10 onwards?

11 A. The assistant commander for morale in the 3rd Corps did not

12 provide information to me. He provides such information to my boss

13 because Mrs. Emira Bolic was my superior. I was president of the

14 commission for POWs in the operations group. And Emira Bolic was

15 responsible for the commission within the 3rd Corps.

16 Q. And the information that the 3rd Corps assistant commander for

17 morale received, do you know where he got that from? Did he get that from

18 the brigades or battalions that were actually holding the HVO soldiers?

19 A. I don't know how he obtained that information. I don't know.

20 Q. You've also told us on several occasions this morning that the

21 detained HVO soldiers were to be kept at the Zenica KP Dom. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you aware at any point in time in 1993 whether there were

25 detained HVO soldiers being held in locations other than KP Dom Zenica?

Page 11991

1 A. No I wasn't aware of it. I knew that in my zone of

2 responsibility, that is to say, in the Bosanska Krajina OG zone of

3 responsibility, I knew that soldiers from the units were taken to the

4 barracks and soon afterwards they were transferred to the Zenica KP Dom.

5 And these are the orders that we received.

6 Q. And sir, when you say "soldiers from the units were taken to the

7 barracks," first of all, can you tell me what you mean by barracks?

8 A. I don't know how much you know about this, but there is a barracks

9 in Travnik which is where the command of the Bosanska Krajina OG was

10 located. So if a unit had captured an HVO member, the unit would transfer

11 the prisoner to the OG command, and the OG command would then send that

12 prisoner to the Zenica KP Dom.

13 Q. Sir, when you say "these barracks in Travnik," that was the former

14 JNA barracks in Travnik. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. At any point in time while you were the OG Bosanska Krajina

17 president of the exchange commission, did you go to the location at the

18 former JNA barracks in Travnik where HVO soldiers were temporarily

19 deprived of their freedom?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about any knowledge that you might have about

22 the units which constituted the OG Bosanska Krajina during the time period

23 that you were affiliated with that operational group. Do you know what

24 units of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH were part of the operations group

25 Bosanska Krajina from April 1993 onwards? Until November 1993? Do you

Page 11992

1 know which units?

2 A. I couldn't say. I don't know.

3 Q. Do you know the approximate area of responsibility of the

4 operations group Bosanska Krajina during the time period from April 1993

5 through November 1993?

6 A. No, I don't know that.

7 Q. During the time period that you were affiliated with the OG

8 Bosanska Krajina commission on exchange, were you aware of any subordinate

9 units of the OG Bosanska Krajina keeping surrendered HVO soldiers in any

10 location other than the former JNA barracks in Travnik, which you've

11 already told us about?

12 A. No, I'm not aware of any such cases.

13 Q. Sir, let me ask you a few questions -- before I do that, do you

14 recall -- you told us earlier about the time that you were in -- June of

15 1993 in Guca Gora at the monastery with Mr. Eminovic and Mr. Beba?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you be more specific in terms of the date in June 1993 when

18 you were there?

19 A. I can't remember the date.

20 Q. Do you recall, sir, the date that the ABiH took control of

21 Guca Gora?

22 A. I don't know that date either.

23 Q. But it was certainly after that date that you were in Guca Gora

24 with Mr. Beba and Mr. Eminovic. Is that correct? It was after the ABiH

25 had taken control of Guca Gora?

Page 11993

1 A. Well, as I said, we found members of the military police of the

2 306th Brigade, they were providing security for the monastery. And since

3 that was the case, the army had already taken control of that area.

4 Q. Do you recall approximately how many members of the 306th Mountain

5 Brigade military police were at the monastery in Guca Gora on the day you

6 visited in June 1993?

7 A. All I can say is how many of them there were at the entrance. As

8 I said, there were PATs and PAMs firing on that entire area on the road,

9 so I entered the monastery rapidly. So perhaps there were three or four

10 policemen who were standing in front of the gate to the monastery.

11 Q. Sir, I'm a bit confused. I'm hoping you can help me here. Are

12 you telling us that at the time you, Mr. Beba, and Mr. Eminovic arrived,

13 that there was still combat going on? Because you say "firing on that

14 area on the road, so I entered the monastery rapidly."

15 A. I don't know how I could explain what was happening in the area.

16 But that part of the road that I'm talking about, it was always dangerous,

17 throughout the conflict that we had with the HVO.

18 Q. So at the time period the three of you arrived and entered the

19 monastery, there was incoming -- I believe you said PAM or PAT fire at the

20 time you entered the monastery?

21 A. Well, I don't know whether there was firing at the time. But that

22 part of the road was always dangerous. And later on, when I worked in

23 Zenica, when I would travel to Zenica, I would always turn the lights off

24 when driving. That part of the road was always dangerous. There was

25 sporadic firing opened at the vehicles using that road.

Page 11994

1 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you told us earlier, page 28, line 15, that

2 Mr. Beba spoke to a priest and others who were standing by the monastery.

3 Was that conversation inside the monastery or outside the monastery?

4 A. Inside the monastery.

5 Q. Do you happen to recall or do you know the name or names of any of

6 those people that Mr. Beba spoke with, including the priest?

7 A. I don't know the names.

8 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you a few questions, if I may, about the

9 exchange involving Ensud Kadiric. You were involved in the exchange of

10 Mr. Kadiric. Is that correct?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. Can you please tell us what you recall about that situation. Can

13 you tell us the specifics about how you became involved and what that

14 exchange was all about.

15 A. I was involved in this exchange at the time when I was already the

16 president of the commission for POWs in the 3rd Corps. And I remember

17 that this person was someone who had been wounded, and the International

18 Red Cross insisted on having this soldier released. They were the most

19 insistent.

20 Q. Sir, I would also like to know if General Alagic was personally

21 pressuring you to get this individual released? Was that the case?

22 A. General Alagic always exerted such pressure. He wanted all army

23 members who had been imprisoned to be released as soon as possible.

24 Q. Sir, do you know if General Alagic was related in any way to

25 Ensud Kadiric?

Page 11995

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you recall the approximate date of the exchange involving

3 Mr. Kadiric? The time period?

4 A. I think it was at the beginning of 1994.

5 Q. Where did that exchange take place?

6 A. I'm trying to remember. But since there were a number of such

7 exchanges, I can't remember whether it took place in the direction of

8 Travnik or in the direction of Zenica.

9 Q. Let me just ask you, I neglected to ask you earlier, sir. When we

10 were talking about individuals or captured HVO soldiers in the vicinity of

11 Travnik, do you happen to know or do you have any recollection of any

12 captured HVO soldiers being detained in the area around Mehurici?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When you say "no," sir, is it no, there weren't any detained, or

15 no, you have no recollection of anyone being detained there?

16 A. I'm not familiar with any such cases.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

18 would ask the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit P655, please. I

19 believe we do have additional copies if that would be helpful.

20 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take a look at the document. It might be

21 easier, sir, on the projector which is to your right. You'll see the

22 document.

23 Let me ask you, please, if you could just take a moment and look

24 at this document and let us know whether this is a document that you have

25 ever seen before.

Page 11996

1 A. Yes, I've already seen this document. This is one of my reports

2 on negotiations with the HVO exchange commission.

3 Q. Would it be correct, then, sir, that you were actually the author

4 of this document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you please look approximately the middle of the page under

7 number 12, and I note that there are two groupings or two clusters of

8 numbers 1 through 12. The first one, I'm talking about the first one, the

9 first time the number 12 appears. Can you tell us what that indicates.

10 A. Well, I'm informing the commander of the identity of the POWs whom

11 the Croatian side wants released. And I'm informing them of the army

12 members that the HVO commission is offering.

13 Under number 12, the HVO commission informs me that they weren't

14 even aware of the name because they had information according to which

15 there was some kind of a prison in Mehurici. That's why the name isn't

16 mentioned here. All it says is that there is a prisoner that they have,

17 according to information that the HVO commission has.

18 Q. Sir, do you recall whether or not you took any steps to attempt to

19 identify this otherwise unidentified Croat prisoner in Mehurici?

20 A. How should I explain this? We tried to check if there were any

21 prisoners of war in Mehurici. And whether there's something that was not

22 in accordance with the commander's order, for all the prisoners to be

23 transferred immediately to the prison in Zenica. We learned that there

24 were no prisoners up there. I would like to say one more thing in order

25 to clarify the matter: Very often during those negotiations, for example,

Page 11997

1 I would receive information that the HVO commission, in other words, the

2 HVO kept some of our members prisoner in the cinema hall in Vitez and

3 elsewhere. I would forward this information to the HVO. However, very

4 few or almost no such cases were ever resolved.

5 Q. Let me ask you a couple of follow-on questions to what you've just

6 told us, sir. You said, "We tried to check whether there were any

7 prisoners of war in Mehurici," and then the second sentence after that

8 says: "We learned that there were no prisoners up there." When you said,

9 "We learned that there were no prisoners up there," were you referring to

10 Mehurici?

11 A. No. I was saying that save for the prisoners who were recorded in

12 the prison in Zenica, there were no other prisoners held by the ABiH.

13 Q. Okay. Now, when you say: "We tried to check if there were any

14 prisoners of war in Mehurici," do you recall approximately when that was

15 that you made this attempt to see if there were prisoners in Mehurici?

16 A. After the negotiations, a query was sent to all the brigades in

17 order to check whether they had any prisoners of war from the ranks of the

18 HVO. I know for sure that we received information that none of the units

19 had any HVO prisoners and that all the prisoners there were were

20 accommodated in the prison in Zenica, in the KP Dom.

21 Q. Sir, when you say "after the negotiations," I'm just interested in

22 the time frame in which this query was sent out. Was a query sent out on

23 one occasion following or during one set of negotiations, or was this a

24 regular and ongoing process whereby you were constantly asking the

25 brigades and battalions if they had prisoners of war?

Page 11998

1 A. Every time when the other side and, in this case, the HVO

2 commission presented some information during the negotiations, we would

3 endeavour to check that information on our part.

4 Q. And on how many of those occasions were you able to determine that

5 brigades or battalions of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH were keeping

6 surrendered HVO soldiers in their custody?

7 A. I don't understand your question, sir.

8 Q. You said: "Every time when the HVO commission presented some

9 information during negotiations, we would endeavour to check that

10 information." Following these checks that you made, on how many occasions

11 did you determine that brigades or battalions of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH

12 were keeping surrendered HVO soldiers in custody?

13 A. Never.

14 Q. I believe, sir, earlier this morning, you told us that you

15 personally were never involved in the exchange of any foreigners.

16 A. That's true.

17 Q. Can you please look at the document you have in front of you,

18 P655, the bottom half of that document where it says, "we would get the

19 following of our men in exchange." Do you see that portion?

20 A. I do indeed.

21 Q. Can you please read out what it says under number 6.

22 A. Yes. And I can also clarify, if I may.

23 Q. Please, please.

24 A. This is a list which was offered by the HVO commission during the

25 exchange. And when I talked to my commander, I could tell him who were

Page 11999

1 the prisoners kept by the HVO and offered by the HVO commission. As far

2 as I can remember, when Mr. Alagic looked at this particular list, he

3 said: "Who is this? Who is this Hasan Beganovic?" And I said: "This is

4 a man from the 312th." And then he asked me who Kasim Arnautovic was.

5 And then I explained because I knew which units these people belonged to.

6 And when we arrived at Mustafa Kohal, I told him I didn't have a clue who

7 it was; it was them who offered him in exchange. His reply was "I'm not

8 interested in foreigners." Once the exchange was implemented according to

9 this principle - I don't know whether you have this document or not - but

10 I know that there are always reports issued by the exchanges commission on

11 every exchange. We gave up on this Syrian. We didn't want to have him

12 exchanged, and I never know to this very day who this person was.

13 Q. I take it, sir, from this answer that if the HVO proposed

14 exchanging foreigners, Mr. Beba would not agree to that?

15 A. Again, I didn't understand your question, sir.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, maybe my learned

17 friend misspoke, because the witness has mentioned his conversation with

18 Mr. Alagic rather than with Mr. Beba.

19 MR. MUNDIS: I'm sorry, that is correct. Let me rephrase the

20 question.

21 Q. Sir, when you spoke with Mr. Alagic, if you presented Mr. or

22 General Alagic with a list that included foreigners, he would not agree to

23 the exchange if the HVO was proposing to exchange foreigners?

24 A. As far as I can remember, this was the only time when a foreigner

25 was offered for exchange. In this particular case, Alagic was categorical

Page 12000

1 when he said no.

2 Q. Can you please look at the bottom left-hand part of this page.

3 There is some -- there's a handwritten word and a signature. Can you tell

4 us what that says and tell us if you recognise that handwriting.

5 A. At the bottom, it says "in agreement, Beba Salko." And in the

6 right top corner, it says "I approve, Commander Alagic."

7 Q. I'm a bit confused, then, sir, because you've told us that

8 Mr. Alagic was categorical when he said no to this exchange, but now

9 you're telling us that at the top right-hand portion of this page, it says

10 "I approve, Commander Alagic"?

11 A. Let me explain. I took this report personally to Mr. Alagic. My

12 office was very close to the command of the operations group. I spoke to

13 him, and he asked for some clarifications. You may have noticed here

14 under 7, I explained to him which HVO prisoner is this relative to. I

15 provided him with verbal explanations, and he verbally told me that he did

16 not approve the exchange of this Syrian and he approved everything else.

17 That is why I proceeded with the exchange very soon after the

18 negotiations. I used this same list, but I omitted the Syrian. The

19 Syrian was not part of the exchange.

20 Q. Sir, would the document, to the best of your recollection, would

21 you have taken this first to Commander Alagic or first to Mr. Beba?

22 A. I believe that I first went to Mr. Alagic. He then referred me to

23 Mr. Beba. He was in the position to tell me if there was anything else,

24 any other reason for which not all of the HVO prisoners could be

25 exchanged. However, Mr. Beba was agreeable, and he confirmed his

Page 12001

1 agreement by putting his signature on this list.

2 Q. Sir, during the time period in 1993 when you were involved in

3 general with prisoner exchanges, did you ever have any instance where you

4 were involved with exchanging civilians?

5 A. As I've already stated, I had a very close relationship with the

6 civilian commission. That is, the state municipal commission in Travnik.

7 We shared the office. And we acted together during the exchanges. I was

8 the one in charge of the prisoners of war. However, sometimes the

9 civilians would be exchanged in the same place as the prisoners of war,

10 the military prisoners of war.

11 Q. Okay. Sir, let me move on to a different topic, but one which is

12 slightly related. During the period in 1993 when you were involved in

13 exchanging prisoners, that is, soldiers, not civilians but soldiers, did

14 there ever come a time when any of the civilian authorities in the area

15 that you were dealing with were at any point in time were civilian

16 authorities holding prisons, HVO prisons, surrendered HVO prisoners?

17 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

18 Q. And just to be clear then, at no point in time are you aware of

19 the civilian authorities having any involvement in prisoner exchanges or

20 having a veto over prisoner exchanges during 1993?

21 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I know that some HVO prisoners were

22 set free, that criminal charges were issued, and that they would be

23 transferred to the authority of the municipal court. What happened to

24 them after that, I really don't know.

25 Q. Sir, were you at any point in time in 1993, did your duties or

Page 12002

1 responsibilities include any type of questioning or interrogation of

2 captured HVO soldiers?

3 A. No.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Finally, Mr. President, with the assistance of the

5 usher, I would ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit P105.

6 And again, Mr. President, we do have extra copies for everyone in and

7 around the courtroom if that would be helpful.

8 Q. Sir, let me ask you if you've ever seen this document before.

9 A. No, I haven't.

10 Q. Well, let me turn your attention, then, sir, to paragraph 5 of

11 this document. According to paragraph 5 of this document, yourself along

12 with Mr. Eminovic and Mr. Beba who you've previously told us were involved

13 with the exchange commissions were responsible for checkpoints, control of

14 checkpoints in the OG Bosanska Krajina zone of responsibility. Sir, was

15 that, in fact, the case as of 28 June 1993?

16 A. As I've already said, I've never seen this order before. I was

17 never in charge of any checkpoints. Maybe Salko had the idea that I

18 should help them or something. However, I never received this order. I

19 never performed controls at any of the checkpoints.

20 Q. So let me ask you this, then, sir: Were you ever verbally ordered

21 to control checkpoints?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you take a look, please, at the signature on page 2 of this

24 document, and I would ask you, sir, if you recognise that signature.

25 A. I think that this is Commander Alagic's signature.

Page 12003

1 Q. And again, sir, turning to paragraph 5 of the document, we see

2 your name, Samir Sefer, and it says "operations group security officer."

3 And it's your testimony that in at no point in time in 1993, including 28

4 June 1993, at no point in time were you a security officer in operational

5 group Bosanska Krajina. Is that what you're telling us?

6 A. Yes. And I adhere by that statement. I was never involved in the

7 security of the operations group.

8 Q. And my final question, sir, at any point in time in 1993 - and the

9 documents can be returned to the Registrar - at any point in 1993 during

10 the period of time that you were involved in exchange commissions, did you

11 have any personal contact with any of the foreigners, such as the

12 Mujahedin or what were often called the Arabs? Did you have any personal

13 contact with those people in 1993?

14 A. I did not have any personal contacts with them. On a couple of

15 occasions, I saw a foreigner come into the commission for exchanges. And

16 this foreigner spoke to Mr. Beba.

17 Q. And at what point in time would that be, sir?

18 A. I don't recall the exact date. It could have been sometime in

19 October.

20 Q. Of which year?

21 A. 1992.

22 Q. Do you know the name of this foreigner who came into the

23 commission for exchanges sometime in October 1992?

24 A. I don't. I don't know.

25 Q. Thank you, sir.

Page 12004

1 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

2 questions for the witness at this time.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, you have the floor.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few questions,

5 Mr. President.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] I'll ask Mr. Sefer about his position when this

8 foreigner came to the office of the commission for exchanges and spoke to

9 Mr. Beba.

10 A. This was in October. I was a member of the municipal commission

11 for exchanges.

12 Q. Very well, then. So it was not a mistake when you said that this

13 was in 1992?

14 A. No, it wasn't.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

17 Document Number P655, the Prosecution Exhibit 655.

18 Q. In your capacity as the president of this commission, after the

19 exchanges, were you duty-bound to draft a report and submit information on

20 the persons who had been exchanged?

21 A. Yes. I was duty-bound to draft a report on the negotiations as

22 well as on the exchanges.

23 Q. You said to my learned friend that the person under item 6 called

24 Mustafa Kohal, a Syrian, was not included into the exchange that was

25 carried out after these negotiations.

Page 12005

1 A. That is correct. He was not included.

2 Q. What about the others? Were they exchanged? Were they recorded

3 in your report on the exchange?

4 A. Yes, and yes.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can the usher please show the witness the

6 following document. We have a sufficient number of copies for everybody.

7 I apologise, Your Honours. We have not shown this document to the witness

8 because it was not on our exhibit list. It is the document that we

9 thought might be used during his examination. This document will appear

10 on our supplemental list. However, since my learned friend showed this

11 witness his Exhibit P655, I would kindly ask permission for this witness

12 to be shown documents that arise from the exchange and a report on this

13 particular exchange.

14 May the witness please be shown these documents.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I just note at this point for the

17 record that this obviously is the first time we've seen this document. We

18 were, of course, given no advance notice of any documents to be shown to

19 this witness. And I may feel it necessary, Mr. President, at some point

20 in the near future to address the Chamber on this issue.

21 But for the time being, I will simply note that this document has

22 just been produced for the Prosecution, and I'll leave it at that for now.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have not disclosed this

25 document to the Prosecution? You've just done it this very moment. Is

Page 12006

1 that correct?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we did mention to

3 the Prosecution that we might be in the position to use this document, and

4 it was prepared. However, it was not on the list, and we didn't plan for

5 this document to be used today. This document is part of those documents

6 that we will submit to the Trial Chamber before the 3rd of December.

7 However, on his cross-examination, the Prosecutor used a document which

8 preceded these documents that I have here on me. I thought it would be

9 appropriate at this point in time to show this document -- these

10 documents. If the Trial Chamber believes it is not appropriate, I will

11 leave these documents for some subsequent witnesses, but these are the

12 documents drafted by this particular witness.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that you had this

14 document, and you forgot to put it on your list or something to that

15 effect. But you were going to do it at a later stage because the list is

16 not going to be complete before the 3rd of December. And since the

17 Prosecutor has put questions regarding these exchanges on his

18 cross-examination, you want to show these documents to the witness because

19 they were drafted by him. And he is aware of those documents, and that is

20 why you want this witness to be shown these documents. Is that correct?

21 Mr. Mundis, regarding the relevance, the Defence has explained how

22 come the document was not on this particular list. They were going to put

23 it on the list. They didn't. What do you have to say to that?

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, as the Chamber is aware, yesterday we

25 were told that if there were to be any documents to be shown to the

Page 12007

1 witness, that that would be communicated to us by 5.00 p.m. I do note

2 that this document was drafted by and has the signature of this witness on

3 it. And he was involved in prisoner exchanges, and this document relates

4 to prisoner exchanges. I'm not necessarily at this point, Mr. President,

5 objecting to the document, but I am objecting to the way in which this

6 document has now appeared before this witness following our

7 cross-examination of the witness. Had we been aware or had they used this

8 document in direct, we certainly wouldn't have had any problems whatsoever

9 or had that been communicated by us by 5.00 p.m. yesterday afternoon. I'm

10 simply informing the Chamber of this problem so that hopefully it won't

11 recur in the future, but also to reserve our position in the event we do

12 need to address the Trial Chamber later with respect to this issue.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think Defence counsel has

14 taken note of what has been said. But please proceed and put your

15 question to the witness on the basis of the document.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Sefer, please have a look at the document, the date of which

18 is the 15th of August 1993. And then the document dated the 16th of

19 August 1993. Are these documents that you yourself drafted?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do these documents follow on the negotiations with the HVO

22 representatives? They follow on the documents presented to you by the

23 Prosecution?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Have a look at the document dated the 16th of August 1993. The

Page 12008

1 number of the document is 01-114/93. Could you tell me whether this is a

2 report on an exchange that you carried out with HVO representatives?

3 A. Yes. This is my report on that exchange.

4 Q. In this list, could we have the name of the individual whose name

5 is Kohal Mustafa and who is a Syrian?

6 A. No, he's not included in this list.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions,

8 Mr. President. And I would like to tender this document into evidence.

9 We will give it the appropriate number, the next number on our list of

10 exhibits if it is admitted into evidence.

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

12 only have a few questions for this witness.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] When cross-examined by the Prosecution, you were

15 asked whether you were involved in the exchange of one called Kadiric

16 Ensud?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said that you knew this person and that you were involved in

19 that exchange.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know when this took place?

22 A. Well, as I said, it was perhaps at the beginning of 1994.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

24 show the witness a document we received from our colleagues from the

25 Prosecution pursuant to Rule 68. It's a statement made by this person who

Page 12009

1 was exchanged, a statement given at the police station of the military

2 police in Vitez.

3 Could the usher please show the witness this document.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if we could actually be either shown

5 what this document is or perhaps given a little bit more information about

6 what the document is.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We only have one copy in English

8 and one in B/C/S. We received this document from the Prosecution pursuant

9 to Rule 68. It's a statement made by Mr. Kadiric, and I think his name

10 was mentioned in the course of the examination of the witness. I assume

11 that my colleagues have this document.

12 Q. Is that the person named Kadiric, Emsud, is that the person who

13 gave the statement? Is that the person who was exchanged, and did you

14 participate in that exchange?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. When this person was captured, which unit was he a member of? Do

17 you know that?

18 A. Well, I found out that he had been captured at a very late date.

19 I found out that he was in the hands of the HVO and that he was in the

20 Kaonik prison. And this is information I obtained through the

21 International Red Cross.

22 Q. If you have a look at the statement, he claims that he was a

23 member of the El Mujahedin unit.

24 A. Yes. Later in the course of the exchange, he said that he was a

25 member of the El Mujahid unit.

Page 12010

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Could we see the

2 English version of the document so we can follow it. We don't have that

3 version.

4 Please continue.

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we received

6 this document from the Prosecution, we would like to tender it into

7 evidence. We received it pursuant to Rule 68, but we have no further

8 questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have some questions that

10 relate to Document P655, and then questions relating the document shown by

11 the Defence, the document dated the 15th of August.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, in the document dated the

14 13th of July 1993, the documents you have before you, this is a document

15 that you yourself drafted. You say in this document that on the 12th of

16 July, radio contact was established with HVO representatives. And

17 furthermore, the HVO representatives requested that the POW exchange take

18 place at 1700 hours on the 13th of July. Apparently, in Dolac. Is that,

19 in fact, what it says in the document that you drafted?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Apparently, radio contact was

22 established. So were radiosets used or telephones? Was a radio frequency

23 used or was it something like a Motorola device that was used for contact?

24 A. Well, it was a radioset. I already mentioned how I established

25 contact with the HVO commission. And there was a radioset that

Page 12011

1 ElektroTravnik company, and ElektroVitez company also had a similar

2 device.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I have understood

4 this correctly, the list of prisoners from 1 to 12, Filipovic -- from

5 Filipovic to the person who was in Mehurici, if I understood you

6 correctly, who listed the names? Did the HVO provide you with these

7 names, or did you write down these names?

8 A. Well, all the names here were provided by the HVO. And it's the

9 HVO that made this suggestion.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the HVO knew that

11 there were seven individuals detained in Travnik. There were eight, in

12 fact, who were in Travnik. There were three who were apparently in the

13 Zenica hospital. And one was in Mehurici. Was the HVO very well informed

14 about the situation within the ABiH? Did they have first-hand and

15 reliable information?

16 A. As far as the names mentioned here are concerned, and with regard

17 to the HVO members who were detained by the ABiH, well, they had reliable

18 information about these affairs. Because in our prisoners -- we allowed

19 the International Red Cross to gain access to our prisons and to the

20 hospital. The Red Cross could register the names of the HVO and the

21 detainees.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the names you were provided

23 with, did these names mean anything to you? You mentioned

24 Stipo Filipovic, or you referred to someone called Stipo Filipovic. Did

25 you know this person or not?

Page 12012

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So under number 7, Bonic, how is

3 it that you mention when he was arrested he had an amputated ear with him?

4 How were you aware of this fact.

5 A. Well, the entire town was familiar with this fact.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The entire town knew

7 about it.

8 As far as the other 12 names are concerned, the BHA soldiers, we

9 have Hasan Beganovic, who is mentioned as the first one, and

10 Fahrudin Hadzalic is the last one on that list, did they provide you with

11 their names?

12 A. Yes, they provided the names.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When Salko Beba and Alagic

14 approved the document, did that entail an agreement for the exchange that

15 was to take place at 1700 hours on the 13th of July? You've said

16 naturally that Mustafa Kohal was excluded from this exchange.

17 A. Yes. I was told that Mustafa Kohal shouldn't be included in the

18 exchange. I was told that we weren't interested in that.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the 13th of July at 1700

20 hours, did this exchange actually take place?

21 A. No, it didn't.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Why?

23 A. I have to provide you with a somewhat lengthy explanation.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

25 A. I was involved in a large number of exchanges, especially a large

Page 12013

1 number of exchanges with the Serbian and Montenegrin aggressor. The

2 exchanges that I was involved in with the HVO caused so many difficulties

3 that once an agreement has been reached on an exchange, you can

4 nevertheless not be sure that the exchange will actually take place. It

5 happened very frequently.

6 For example, Ivica Saric is mentioned here. Just after having

7 reached an agreement with Ivica Saric about the exchange, information

8 would arrive according to which it wasn't possible to carry out the

9 exchange. They said, we've got a new man, we've replaced a man, and then

10 you would have to negotiate with him. And then I would be told to

11 negotiate with Mr. Nikica Petrovic. And after discussed the matter with

12 him on numerous occasions, and after having reached another agreement, a

13 third person would suddenly appear on the scene, and this is why this

14 exchange took place at a later date.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. When did you realise

16 you couldn't carry out the exchange at 1700 hours -- when you actually

17 realised this couldn't be carried out, did you phone the HVO to agree on

18 carrying out the exchange at a later date?

19 A. Well, after I had reached an agreement on this exchange, they --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, I'm referring to this

21 specific case, to this particular exchange. When did you inform the HVO

22 that it couldn't take place at 1700 hours on the 13th of July in Dolac?

23 A. Well, I didn't inform them. They informed me that this exchange

24 could not be carried out in this way. They thought that everyone should

25 be exchanged for everyone else.

Page 12014

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they contacted you via

2 radiolink. They said that when you carried out the exchange, 12 men

3 should be exchanged on one side for 12 men on the other?

4 A. No. I'll correct this. They didn't contact me via radiolink to

5 inform me that there would be no exchange on that occasion. But I was

6 informed of this by the International Red Cross. They had probably been

7 to see them, and we wouldn't have got involved in small-scale exchanges.

8 We were told that they wanted to exchange all the men on one side for all

9 the men on the other.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you said that

11 this was information provided via the International Red Cross. Have a

12 look at Document 655. There's no number on the document. The document

13 dated the 15th of August has a number, but this document, Document 655,

14 doesn't have a number under which it was registered. Do you have an

15 explanation? I'm referring to the document that the Defence provided you

16 with a minute ago. The number of this document is 01-112/93. And there

17 is a date. So it's a military-style document. But the other document I'm

18 referring to doesn't have a number under which it was registered. Why?

19 A. Because it's just information on the negotiations conducted. It's

20 not an official report.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Still referring to

22 Document 655 now, it contains your name, and we can also see a sort of

23 heart with the symbol of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there is a cross. Why is

24 there a cross next to the coat of arms? Was this to give -- was this in

25 order to recognise the fact that the Red Cross was involved in the

Page 12015

1 exchange?

2 A. Yes. The red cross was the symbol used by the International

3 Red Cross. It symbolises the humanitarian work that they were involved

4 in.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, how is it that we can't see

6 this sign in the document dated the 15th of August? You see the stamp is

7 different, and there's no red cross.

8 A. Well, let me explain this. When returning from the negotiations,

9 I returned to my office and drafted a report on the negotiations

10 conducted, and then I stamped the document with the stamp of the

11 commission for exchanges.

12 On the other document, the stamp is different because our

13 imprisoned members were exchanged. I took them to the clinic in the

14 barracks for an examination. And in the OG command, I drafted a report on

15 the exchange of POWs. And I then stamped the document with the OG group's

16 stamp.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When comparing the two

18 documents, the document dated the 15th of August makes reference to the

19 International Red Cross and to UNPROFOR. It contains these references.

20 However, on the document dated the 13th of July, no such references are

21 contained. Weren't there any official exchanges with the

22 International Red Cross and exchanges of a different kind, for example,

23 the exchanges such as they were described in the document dated the 13th

24 of July. What would you say about that?

25 A. Well, when negotiations were underway, if the International Red

Page 12016

1 Cross and UNPROFOR visited us, we would provide oral reports about the

2 negotiations conducted with the commission. However, once an exchange had

3 been agreed on and once a date for an exchange had been agreed on, then we

4 would make sure to inform the International Red Cross and UNPROFOR of the

5 fact.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's go back to the document

7 dated the 13th of July. Number 12 mentions one of the prisoners who was

8 in Mehurici. What you have said, the HVO told you that they wanted one of

9 the men in Mehurici. What were you going to do? Because if they say one

10 of the prisoners, you didn't know who this prisoner was. It wasn't your

11 intention to call the unit in Mehurici in order to ask them whether they

12 had any prisoners? What did you intend to do in that specific situation

13 since over the radio you were told that they wanted to exchange 12 men for

14 12 men. Among the 12 men, there was one who was in Mehurici and whose

15 identity you did not know. What were you going to do in order to make

16 sure that the exchange took place?

17 Could you explain to us what you intended to do since you were

18 provided with information over the radio, and apparently you were not

19 aware of whether there were any prisoners in Mehurici. So what did you

20 intend to do given that situation?

21 A. Well, when I was provided with this information via radiolink, and

22 I assume that the information was not correct because had the information

23 been correct, the HVO would have provided the actual name of the person

24 concerned. However, although the information was not complete, through

25 the command of the OG, I sent a letter to the unit in the Mehurici area

Page 12017

1 requesting that they check to see whether they had any HVO members in

2 detention.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. You said that

4 you contacted the OG command and requested that they send a letter to the

5 unit in Mehurici. Is that correct? And I want to point out the

6 following: You were supposed to carry out this exchange on that very same

7 day. That's what the HVO wanted. Wouldn't it have been simpler to phone

8 Mehurici to find out whether they had any prisoners there unless it wasn't

9 possible to establish such contact with Mehurici at the time?

10 A. Well, first of all, let me make a correction. The negotiations by

11 radiolink took place on the 12th of July. That's what it says in this

12 letter. The exchange was to take place on the 13th of July. And I had

13 enough time to go to the command and check whether this prisoner actually

14 existed or not.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did the command do what was

16 necessary to establish contact with Mehurici?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What did they say? Did they

19 have any prisoners or not?

20 A. No. As far as I can remember, but I'm not a hundred per cent

21 sure, I think this was the zone of responsibility of the 306th Brigade.

22 And we received a letter stating that this was the first time they had

23 heard about something of this kind. They said that they didn't have any

24 HVO members in detention.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll have our break

Page 12018

1 now, and we will resume at 5 minutes to 1.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, we resume. The

5 Judges have a few more questions for the witness. I'm going to give the

6 floor to Judge Swart.

7 JUDGE SWART: Good afternoon, Witness. I would like to put you a

8 few questions on the exchange matter that we have been discussing this

9 morning. I remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you said

10 this morning that the first exchange you were involved in was somewhere in

11 August 1993. Is that correct?

12 A. What exchange are you referring to? An exchange with the HVO or

13 an exchange with the Serbians and Montenegrins?

14 JUDGE SWART: I'm referring to an exchange with the HVO, yes.

15 A. I can't recall the exact date. I know that the first exchange was

16 the one that I have spoken about today. This exchange involved

17 Zarko Andric, also known as Zuti.

18 JUDGE SWART: We have been given documents you made on an exchange

19 on the 16th August of 1993. Was that the first exchange that took effect

20 in your period of activities, or has there been an exchange before?

21 A. This exchange which took place on the 15th of August 1993 was not

22 the first one with the HVO. The first exchange with the HVO was the one

23 that involved Zuti when I handed over his relative, Dominic Andric to him.

24 I can't remember the date, but I remember that this was the first

25 exchange.

Page 12019

1 JUDGE SWART: Do you remember the date when the exchange with the

2 body of Dominic Andric took place? Was it also in August? Was it in

3 July?

4 A. Again, I don't remember the date. It could not have taken place

5 in August because it was this exchange that took place in August. This,

6 the first one must have been earlier. Whether it was a month before or

7 not, I don't know. I only know that this exchange involved the dead body

8 of Dominic Andric, an HVO fighter. There were also some prisoners of war

9 involved. There were seven on our side and seven on their side, as far as

10 I can remember.

11 JUDGE SWART: Okay, let's go back to the documents you have been

12 shown. This is, first of all, the document P655. You have been shown the

13 document before. And if you still have it, please take it. We have been

14 discussing this document before, and you said, well, I signed it on the

15 bottom at the right-hand side, and Alagic signed it on the top of the

16 right-hand side, and I suppose that the signature at the left-hand side on

17 the bottom is the signature of Mr. Beba. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct. However, my signature is missing. The only

19 thing you see here is the stamp of the commission for exchanges.

20 JUDGE SWART: That's right. Now, you told us about a conversation

21 you had with the commander Alagic, and he asked you details on all the 12

22 persons to be exchanged. And when you discussed number 6, Mr. Kohal, he

23 said he should not be included in the exchange. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE SWART: So he disappeared from the list, I suppose. My

Page 12020

1 question is the following: If Alagic says he should not be

2 exchanged -- included in the exchange, why did you not make a new document

3 and let them sign the new document?

4 A. Well, the commander, Alagic, at that time had a lot of work and

5 many tasks. It was very difficult to get a hold of him when he was free

6 to talk to you. You could not get a hold of him at all times. He was

7 moving around a lot. And it was the common practice for me to first do

8 the negotiations, and then inform him in writing as to what had been

9 discussed. After that, he would give me his consent for the exchange. I

10 believe that there must be a document informing the units on the lines

11 facing the HVO, that there would be an exchange on a certain date, and

12 this was in view of the cease-fire. There must have been a document. I

13 don't see it here. This new document must have been contained the exact

14 list of the names of the people who would be exchanged. Those are the

15 only persons who were allowed to approach the exchange line.

16 JUDGE SWART: Why did he not put a line through number 6? Why did

17 he not simply omit number 6 from the list together with putting his

18 signature?

19 A. There was time, and there must have been a document stating the

20 names of those to be exchanged. This had to be done in order to regulate

21 the cease-fire during the exchange.

22 JUDGE SWART: Why not make a new document, then?

23 A. I believe that it was made. We don't have it, but it must have

24 been drafted.

25 JUDGE SWART: Why did not you yourself put a line through number 6

Page 12021

1 in this document?

2 A. I had a notebook. In my notebook, I recorded what was said during

3 the negotiations. And I used the notebook when I drafted reports for my

4 commander. I suppose that I crossed that name in my notebook.

5 JUDGE SWART: I'm, of course, asking you this because we have been

6 given a document with an official signature of you -- not of you, of Beba

7 and Alagic at the same time, which includes number 6. So you are telling

8 us there is a new document probably which does not contain number 6. But

9 this is a document which on the face of it sounds that number 6 was

10 included.

11 Let me go back to the exchange on the 12th of July. You said

12 there was no exchange on the 13th of July.

13 A. I apologise. I would like to add something. This is not the

14 final list for exchange. This is just the HVO proposal. The final list

15 of people to be exchanged must have been submitted to the command on the

16 same day. Following that, an order on cease-fire must have been issued in

17 order to provide for the exchange. Maybe this is why there's no document

18 number or it was not written on a letterheaded paper. Because this was

19 just a preliminary document that was drafted immediately after the

20 negotiations.

21 JUDGE SWART: Did an exchange then take place at all?

22 A. Yes, it did. But this person was not included.

23 JUDGE SWART: You mean now number 6 of your list?

24 A. Yes, I'm referring to the name under number 6. I can see this in

25 the second document which is the report on exchange.

Page 12022

1 JUDGE SWART: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

2 A. [No Interpretation]

3 JUDGE SWART: There is no interpretation of what you said. Could

4 you repeat your answer.

5 A. We have this second document which is the information on the

6 exchange. This exchange took place on the 16th of August 1993 in a place

7 called Donje Puticevo.

8 JUDGE SWART: So you would say that the exchange that was intended

9 to take place on the 13th of July was in effect realised in August 16 or

10 18. I don't know the date exactly. The 16th.

11 A. Yes. This is the exchange, and you can see that from the list of

12 names of the people who were included in the exchange.

13 JUDGE SWART: Well, I've had an opportunity to compare the two

14 lists during the break. But I think basically these are different lists,

15 except one name.

16 A. After the negotiations which took place on the 12th of July, this

17 was the first exchange. Certain names had been altered.

18 JUDGE SWART: It's difficult to understand because you said before

19 that even before this exchange on the 16th, there was another exchange

20 which a body of the son of a person you knew was also included, and that

21 you recalled must have been somewhere in the beginning of August.

22 But coming to your point, I see only different names with the

23 exception of one to the extent I have been able to study the two lists.

24 A. I can repeat, having heard what you said, that these lists are

25 different. Just give me a moment. Muhamed Kohen was on the original

Page 12023

1 list. Hasan Beganovic as well. Some detainees that I requested were not

2 exchanged. We also kept some because no final agreement was reached.

3 Some members of the HVO were not exchanged. They were kept in custody.

4 JUDGE SWART: Let's agree that number 1 on the list of 15 August

5 mentions Hasan Beganovic, and he was on your list of 12 July, wasn't he?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE SWART: And he's also on the list of the 16th, which is

8 concerned with people that have been exchanged.

9 A. A correction, please. On the 15th of August, there was another

10 radio contact. And the lists were exchanged again, the list of people who

11 were supposed to be included. It was only on the 16th that the actual

12 exchange took place.

13 JUDGE SWART: There is also, as you said, a Muhamed on the list of

14 the 15th, a certain Kahal Muhamed, and he's also on the list of the 16th,

15 and there he's number 30.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE SWART: On your list of the 12th, there is one Muhamed, and

18 that is number 5, Muhamed Kohen. And there is one Kohal, that's number 6,

19 bus his name is Mustafa, and that's the Syrian. So I don't know -- quite

20 know --

21 A. There must have been a typo. The person who was exchanged was

22 Muhamed Kohen. I remember this person. He is still living in Travnik, or

23 in Vitez. He is about 60 years of age. At that time, he was a civilian,

24 not an army member.

25 JUDGE SWART: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Turn to the

Page 12024

1 other side of the coin, people who have been exchanged on the 16th to the

2 Croat side. You have a number of persons, and as far as I can see, none

3 of them corresponds with the persons on your list of the 12th of July.

4 A. A number of the names which were on the list of the 12th were

5 later omitted from the other list. The reason was the fact that the

6 Croatian side did not include our fighters who were in their prison.

7 JUDGE SWART: I now want to show you a new document you have not

8 seen before. It's P399. And it is under seal.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we please move into private

10 session, Mr. Registrar.

11 [Private session]

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 12025












12 Page 12025 redacted private session.














Page 12026












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Page 12027












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Page 12028












12 Page 12028 redacted private session.














Page 12029

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are back in open session,

13 Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now that we're back in open

15 session, I'd like to ask the Prosecution -- I asked the Prosecution

16 whether they had any further questions. They said they did not. I then

17 gave the floor to Defence counsel, and Defence counsel also told me that

18 had no additional questions. I'm now turning to the Defence. As far as

19 the document that you want to tender into evidence is concerned.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the two documents dated the

21 15th of August and the 16th of August are the documents that we would like

22 to have admitted into evidence, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

24 Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: No objections, Mr. President.

Page 12030

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we have

2 exhibit numbers for these documents.

3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] These two documents will have the

4 same Exhibit number, DH346, and the English version will be DH346/E.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Witness, I'd like to thank you. This concludes your testimony.

7 We have concluded a few minutes before the end of the hearing. Thank you

8 for answering the questions put to you by both parties and then by the

9 Judges. I wish you a good trip home. And I will now ask the usher to

10 escort you out of the courtroom.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There's also the Defence

14 document belonging to General Kubura's Defence team, and they are

15 requesting that this document be admitted into evidence.

16 Mr. Registrar, do we have this document?

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It appears we have the B/C/S

18 version of this document. As far as I know, the Chamber should have the

19 English version, at least I hope that that is the case. If not, I hope

20 that Mr. Kubura's Defence can provide us with a copy.

21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution during the break

22 printed out another copy of that in English, and we can certainly provide

23 this if there's no other English copy available.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So Defence counsel

25 will be tendering this document into evidence in both English and B/C/S

Page 12031

1 version.

2 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We have

3 provided you with a copy. I think the Chamber has it. And we will ensure

4 that we have other copies after the hearings. We have spoken about this

5 with the Prosecution in the course of the break, and I don't think they

6 have any objections of it being admitted into evidence.

7 MR. MUNDIS: No objections.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Mr. Registrar, could we have a number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DK15, and the English version for

11 this document DK15/E.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the Defence

13 counsel now inform me of the schedule for the following week.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since you suggested

15 that when we refer to witnesses who still haven't stated whether they will

16 be requesting protective measures or not, could we go into private

17 session.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go into

19 private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 12032












12 Page 12032 redacted private session.














Page 12033

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are back in open session,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Since we're in open session, we

11 were discussing the schedule for next week. If there is -- if there are

12 no other items to be raised, no other issues to be raised, I will see

13 everyone at the hearing on Monday at 2.15.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

16 November, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.